Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, that's basically the general deal with ARPGs, and there's no way to handle it but to waddle through the mud. Sometimes, I even entertain Tal's idea of booting all ARPGs ever because of that. >_> But oh well.

[Clear Tranquil]

Lucia AND Yuri2 together sound a poor idea. He gets the spells Lucia does and more, and you want more bang for your buck even if you're using a Light. Redundancy isn't good. Not to mention that Status Symbol Law would be bad for Yuri, he'd become below average speed (Lucia herself would become rather problematically frail and she's already below average speed, this would make her even easier to outspeed. She'd also lose resources, etc... just not something I'd do).

Yeah I'd probably toss Status Law for that combo given SH2's good range of status blockers + Lucia's ally status immune aroma (I don't remember if Yuri has any status immune techs?) I was thinking on this a while back and gnawing on that Status Law would make techs like that redundant. On the other hand it does mean teams aren't using their turns on status protection. Hmm.

The Yuri + Lucia combo is nuts in game because Yuri has Energy Charge (150% self boost to ATK), Lucia has a 50% increase skill which works with *everything* including Energy Charge + Rage/Arc Rage. So Lucia w/th 50% skill increase, Ana or someone with Rage/Arc Rage x 50% + Yuri w/th Energy Charge x 50% ... Yuri gets both the boosts from the buffed Rage + the buffed Energy Charge. In other words his physical damage goes through the roof. Or Lucia has an increase criticals skill which is quite reliable at triggering and basically doubles a team's damage. That would be pretty scary with a Scatter Beams Maria. Double damage in SO3 is evil. The main thing for me in the dungeon though is someone with MT MP regen and Lucia obtains that reasonably early. Then she has the really broken stuff like auto third key on all allies which would be quite brutal if a team in the dungeon ever got that far with her >_>

On the other hand Yuri can get things like Mind's Eye + Extreme w/th the Yuri + Lucia combo in game which doesn't apply here. Hrnn *muses* I'm possibly overestimating Yuri's physical offence in the dungeon. Especially since you brought his spells up. Maybe he's more valuable in dungeon for his support + magic. I dunno <_<

Also, that team really doesn't like the idea of Status Law. Outside Lenneth, all the party members have statistical problems. If you pick that sealstone, Meru will a) become easier to outspeed and b) OHKOed by average to below physicals. She'll turn into a 0.5 liability. Sharanda will have similar issues, with the added problem of risking not being even above average speed anymore. Speed-wise, Maria won't be affected, but you don't want her getting -frailer-, and Mia herself is already slow and frail until floor 5 (where she may become averagish speed and frail). That team won't make waves because of how poorly off its stats pan out and how Status Law both mitigates what good stats they have and exacerbates the ones that fail. Lenneth is a pretty good Status Law pick, but it doesn't matter when the rest of the team is riddled with some of the worst picks ever for it.

Fair enough.

I recognised the statistical problems apart from Lenneth myself but I was hoping the blitzing power + Mia/Maria/Lenneth's DEF buffs + Lenneth would be enough to compensate for that. At least enough to get through the first few floors anyway. The HP/speed/DEF decrease is scary for the team but 10% loss to ATK doesn't scare Power Dance. Or Power Dance + Angel Feather+ Might Enforce. Those stack I believe (Peppita + Maria's buffs do in game anyway). The durability problem I was hoping would be rectified to an extent w/th stacking of Ice Shield/Protection/Guard Enforce but maybe I'm hoping for too much. I didn't really consider/take into account the speed decrease enough I don't think. Thanks Snow.

The other Sealstone I had been considering for that team was Speed! but if you're taking Maria as average now that's one less thing I have to worry about!? >_> <_< >_>

Team really needs something to deal with the likes of Sephiroth later on (though might be worth taking a look at the other floor) My reasoning for Status Symbol Law was that SO3 misses a few vital status blockers like confusion/blind/sleep + Sharanda, one my revivers misses ID (unless the Talisman is legal in the dungeon) Meru + dragoon status immunity + Rainbow Breath's status cure would have helped w/th the SO3 characters to an extent. Screw you Rampage Drive! Again!

Tidus is a potentially interesting choice to go w/th the Maria + Peppita duo (initiative Haste/Hastega) but another of my reasons for the Lenneth pick was to have extra offence respect since apart from that I'm relying on SO3 Maria + Peppita respect but while Maria does put out the most damage in the game along with Peppita once Pep gets Dream Hammer and while Power Dance is broke some people might not buy it. Don't know how good Tidus offence respect is.

There's also Nel/Maria/Peppita/Sharanda/Meru/Nall but then I'd only have Sharanda for revival *sighs*

Anyway scrub the Status Law Symbol on my team for now if you could Neph

[074]

Nel's actually another decent choice for Life.  She gets Healing early, but it doesn't really get too much better as her magic drops off around midgame or so, and it remains insanely cheap.  Though...eh.  Not sure if your healing would be good enough otherwise to warrant that.

[Dhyerwolf]

Nel's healing only gets better (as it starts off lackluster), unless you mean a difference Nel than SO 3.

[074]

...ah, okay, now I see it.  It's just that Nel didn't use Healing nearly enough times in my SO3 playthroughs for me to see the eventual benefit.  Didn't realize it was percentile.

Not sure how well I'd see Healing level up, honestly.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Looking at Status Law Symbol, I'm concerned that its cost is going to outweigh its benefits more often than not. And there's not a lot of ways to get around it as is.

Looking through the available roster, there aren't many characters that can handle the stat nerfing... especially on the lower floors where it's so crucial and there aren't many options for mitigating problems besides hoping to tank damage. The speed nerf is especially problematic.

It's especially pertinent given how little Status there is to deal with on the early floors, so taking Status Law Symbol during the low-option floors is really dangerous without much reward.

I think instead of a general stat drop, it should grant immunity in exchange for dropping only one or two stats (maybe slightly more?). That way, at least, there's the potential for using another character with Buffs to offset the weakness in the early floors. There aren't a lot of characters with a General stat-buff (Tear has Angel Feather! Floor 4!), but there's plenty of single-stat buffers out there.

I'd suggest dropping either ATK/INT or DEF/MDEF. The latter would be the nicer option (since a lot of characters only care about MDEF due to status anyway), while the former would be closer in spirit to the original Status Law Symbol (which strikes me as working better on a defensive team).

IF you wanted to be mean, you could just do a Speed drop, but there's a lot more Speed-buffing characters out there than anything else, I think.

[Taishyr]

Keep in mind it's very, very hard to nerf speed of people who don't have a speed stat of that kind to nerf. Hi, Lenneth! Hi, Athos!

But otherwise, yes.

[074]

But to be fair, those types are taken at 100%, winning tiebreaks.  Typically.  Speed buffs/nerfs may or may not apply.

[Taishyr]

Asked Neph specifically. It's a direct stat reduction, and they have no stat to reduce there - their "speed" is a construct of interps, and even if it existed in theory it's not there to be targeted.

IOW, while I'd let speed buffs and shit actually work on them (as it's influencing their system with the rules of another), the penalty of Status Symbol Sealstone only applies to stats that they actually possess in their game.

[Clear Tranquil]

Well ... I could juggle Life from Nel to Meru to Peppita as the floors progress I suppose. Yeah if I went for Nel I'd be able to pick Meru since Nel also starts w/th magic and decent enough resources. Nel/Sharanda/Meru trio should be more than Rampage Drive can handle ^_^

Since she dungeon starts w/th her dragoon stone I'd peg Rainbow Breath F2 myself. Based on my experiences of always picking up Meru's L2 + L3 pretty quick due to her speed giving her more turns for SP farming.

Peppita picks up Healing Dance F4 under my new interps of levels per floor. MT HP recovery battle skill (Peppita is benefited as well) that is good stuff when levelled. It sucks to start off w/th but becomes decent at around L4/5 (especially considering she can chain it i.e HD > HD > HD > HD etc until out of fury) and ends up as good stuff i.e full healing later yeah.

So .. I'm thinking ...  on F4/5 it'd be more valuable for the MT revive w/th Life since the healing is not that good to start w/th and Life basically makes it a non factor. By that stage of the dungeon Sharanda has high MT healing + MT revival w/th Gates of Heaven and Rainbow Breath is MT 50% healing + MT status cure ... and Nel's ST Healing is now solid.

It ... sounds .. yummy. Peppita would wind up w/th 50% MT healing w/th 1HP MT revival eventually too .. so it's a potential four solid healers + two revivers + Nall.

I has physicals (Maria/Nel/Peppita), I has magic (Sharanda/Meru/Nel), I has healing (Meru/Nel/Peppita/Sharanda), revival (Life, Sharanda, Nall) , I has status (Maria/Nel/Peppita), I has buffs (Maria, Peppita) and I has MP regen (Peppita)

Team loses Lenneth + Mia's DEF buffs but ...

Nel (Life)/Maria/Sharanda/Peppita/Meru/Nall

Any complaints!?~

[superaielman]

Appalling physical durability and a lack of MT healing. Offense isn't really good either- you need direct blitzing ability in the dungeon.

[Bardiche]

Since this came up in chat and I am an advocate of suggesting more characters (because you can't ever have enough? ... ehhhhh...)

Emma (1.5)
Pros: Great Booster. Elemental Zones. Status Zones. Great supporter!
Cons: Stats blow fiercely. Slow, and durable like glass. Spells suck at first.

We considered her at first as learning Downloads when reasonably possible, and there were two interps to that:

1) Let her Download skills when she joins the party. This happens at Lolithia's Tomb (floor 1/2), Giant's Cradle (floor... 3/4/5? not sure) and finally at floor 6 or 7. Obviously, this means she's a nobody until Giant's Cradle, at which point she can download Water Zone and a few tricks. Certainly not enough to warrant her use much. This interpretation would make her more of a .5 pick, given that she's awful until floor 6/7.

2) Allow her Download skills when the monster that gives it is encountered. This makes Emma useful, and means she builds up in the dungeon. This does mean, however, that her more useful tricks are late-dungeon.

As a sort of comprehensive list (thanks Glen for the help):

Floor 1: Up to Milama Village.
Hydro Launcher, Water Zone, Stink Cloud, Baking Breath, Renovation.

Floor 2: Up to the Fake Wedding.
Toxic Breath, Screaming Mad, Shriek, Slumber Fog.

Floor 3: Up to the Ghost Ship.
Rock Gazer, Earth Zone, Bright Blast, Insect Breath.

Floor 4: Until Barrier Shelter. (Emma loves this floor)
Flaming Zone, Anti-Magic Zone, Voltage Spark, Electrigger, Thunder Zone, Crack Tremor, Phantom Hazard, Hyperion Blaster, Hazardous Material 666, Cellular Petrifier, Baryon Corrida, Maelstrom, Magic Zone, Caloric Sphere, Ash Reducer, Sky Twister, Petrify Stare, Wind Zone, Petrify.

Floor 5: Until Demon's Lab.
Great Booster, Agony Effect, Asphyxiation, Harmful Wave, Luminous Moss, Rule of Vengeance, Arctic Lance, Flirtation, Freezing Zone.

Floor 6: Gemini's Corpse, end zone.
Reset, Full Revive, Contaminated Crust, Infra Sonic, Critical Heal, Agony Effect, Anti-Matter Bomb, Direct Voice, Tsohanoi's Solar Wind, Blizzard Breath, Hrimthur's Eternal Ice, Luminous Impact, Spontaneous Combustion.

Floor 7: Until you kick arse and the ending credits roll.
Hypnotizer, Bright Zone, Vanish, Anti-Matter Bomb (MT), Arc-en-Ciel, Noxious Stream, Radious Breath, Storm Blade, Hazardous Material 666 (MT), Undulation Cannon, Arc Impulse, The Uncertainty Theory, Paradigm Pollution, Offense Zone, Psychedelicor, Aiming Zone, Sediment of the Styx, Apocalypse's Thunder, Infra Sonic (MT).

Giving Emma ALL her Download skills from the start may make her more attractive a choice, but having access to all Zones, Full Revive, Great Booster and Critical Heal from the start may make her worth a bit more.

Additionally...

Cecilia (WA:ACF) (3.5)
Pros: Wide variety of support spells. Permanence. Retaliation.
Cons: Not as much MP as her other form. Not as damaging.

[dude789]

3.5 is way to high for ACF Cecilia. 3.0 or even 2.5 is more appropriate.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Emma sorta deserves a 1.0. Those stats are just too goddamned bad, and she has serious resource woes. ACF Cecilia uhhhhhhhhhh. I'm not sure if she's even a 2.5, although maybe.

[Bardiche]

Emma sorta deserves a 1.0. Those stats are just too goddamned bad, and she has serious resource woes. ACF Cecilia uhhhhhhhhhh. I'm not sure if she's even a 2.5, although maybe.

I suggest a 1.5 based on her lategame being incredibly cheesy, and her Floor 1 performance being... lacking. Renovation only affects herself, and unless you have someone like KYOGRE, Water Zone won't help her much. No hype for Emma damage.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Emma sorta deserves a 1.0. Those stats are just too goddamned bad, and she has serious resource woes. ACF Cecilia uhhhhhhhhhh. I'm not sure if she's even a 2.5, although maybe.

I suggest a 1.5 based on her lategame being incredibly cheesy, and her Floor 1 performance being... lacking. Renovation only affects herself, and unless you have someone like KYOGRE, Water Zone won't help her much. No hype for Emma damage.

Her lategame being cheesy in-game stems from Great Booster and more or less Great Booster alone, and that needs Jane/Tidus/Eileen to pan out in the dungeon. Dungeon enemies are a lot better at stopping Emma from living to see a turn than ACF enemies, and ACF -randoms- were good at doing that for starters when Jane wasn't involved.

[superaielman]

Emma is begging for that speed sealstone. God knows she gets a turn all of never otherwise.

[Glen Veil]

I would agree with ACF Cecilia being more along the lines of a 2.0 or 2.5

Emma I would say 1.5 1.0 is kind of low for what she can do endgame, Arc En Ciel is multitarget Sleep, Confusion, Slow Petrify, Poison, and Sickness, and Vanish is Multitarget instant death.  If a team can keep Emma alive, she does terrible, terrible things.

She also gets Insect Breath floor 3, which is 100% accuracy HP->1

Having her as a 1.0 makes me feel like it would be too easy to make a team that can do well on it's own, but then pick up Emma as a sort of cheap "you must focus me and ignore the rest of the team or I keel you" kind of pick.

[Bardiche]

Emma sorta deserves a 1.0. Those stats are just too goddamned bad, and she has serious resource woes. ACF Cecilia uhhhhhhhhhh. I'm not sure if she's even a 2.5, although maybe.

I suggest a 1.5 based on her lategame being incredibly cheesy, and her Floor 1 performance being... lacking. Renovation only affects herself, and unless you have someone like KYOGRE, Water Zone won't help her much. No hype for Emma damage.

Her lategame being cheesy in-game stems from Great Booster and more or less Great Booster alone, and that needs Jane/Tidus/Eileen to pan out in the dungeon. Dungeon enemies are a lot better at stopping Emma from living to see a turn than ACF enemies, and ACF -randoms- were good at doing that for starters when Jane wasn't involved.

I know that, and I considered it. Emma is, after all, not reliable as a healer, a status flinger, a buffer or a reviver, even if she can do all of those. She can synergise with a few teams, though... notably teams that manage to protect her (Cloud + Cover?), boost her speed (Tidus!) or delay the enemy's turn.

I guess a 1.0 would probably be more fair in some regard, but as Glen mentions, she can do brutal things.

Insect Breath costs 80 MP by the way, and I'm *not sure* if it's 100% accuracy, but it's too costly for her to employ more than once a floor. Yes, even at floor 7. ._.

Emma wants a Resourceless, Speed? or someone with Firefly. I... guess that means she does deserve a 1.0 for being Sealstone and/or heavily team reliant.

[Clear Tranquil]

Appalling physical durability

Correct.

That doesn't matter for a while because -

and a lack of MT healing.

Three is a lack of? >_>

*and*

Offense isn't really good either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62z0OKaea3o&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-SMaBUYv20&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xOy_oSHE6g&feature=channel_page

Like hell it isn't. I don't know about direct offence but yeah like hell it doesn't have any blitzing power at all. Apart from Dream Hammer Peppita has high damage modifiers across the board w/th the likes of her Short O + Faerie Friend. Maria also has Energy Burst. This isn't even touching on Nel who has Whirlwind + Mirror Slice. I'd have posted more videos highlighting this but I didn't want to bury you alive ^_^

Sharanda starts off F1 as a blitzer w/th attack items. Magic is more powerful in LoD than additions with a few very rare exceptions (like Haschel w/th Destroyer Mace) Meru is the best overall offence in LoD + strategic building w/th her speed/Pretty Hammer buys her time for that in the dungeon. Maria *starts* w/th Berserk + Scatter Beams or Aiming Device for MP damage. I feel like I should clarify something here - Maria is a beast on her own. Power Dance just makes that beyond insane. It's not like Maria needs Power Dance to do any damage in the first place though.

I forgot I also has speed (Meru, Sharanda) + MP busting (Maria, Nel, Peppita) ^_^ Team is ... average speed overall?

Team has no physical durability it's true apart from maybe Peppita's counters and Meru/Sharanda's damage reduction from dragoon form ... but honestly that is the only real flaw I think. Maria's Protection/Angel Feather might also help with that and if the team makes it far enough maybe Neph can help with gifts ^_^

[superaielman]

Three is a lack of? >_>

Who can MT heal besides for Meru and Shana? Nel's healing is ST as far as I know and it's moot, since she's being used for the life sealstone. Meru's MT isn't full and is limited by her MP reserves and needing to be in Dragoon form. Though yes, I did forget that her dragoon healing could be MT.

Like hell it isn't. I don't know about direct offence but yeah like hell it doesn't have any blitzing power at all. Apart from Dream Hammer Peppita has high damage modifiers across the board w/th the likes of her Short O + Faerie Friend. Maria also has Energy Burst.

ST average speed damage is never impressive in the dungeon for blitzing, which is what most of your team's offense is. Shana/Meru pick up later on, but it isn't like Meru can ever really spam Blue Sea Dragon thanks to MP restrictions. You don't have any real way to get faster on the SO3 girls, which is a problem.

Not specifically related to this, but you can use six PC's if one of them is Nall?

[074]

1.0-cost Nall doesn't take a party slot, as opposed to the 0.5-cost Nall.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Well ... I could juggle Life from Nel to Meru to Peppita as the floors progress I suppose. Yeah if I went for Nel I'd be able to pick Meru since Nel also starts w/th magic and decent enough resources. Nel/Sharanda/Meru trio should be more than Rampage Drive can handle ^_^

Since she dungeon starts w/th her dragoon stone I'd peg Rainbow Breath F2 myself. Based on my experiences of always picking up Meru's L2 + L3 pretty quick due to her speed giving her more turns for SP farming.

Peppita picks up Healing Dance F4 under my new interps of levels per floor. MT HP recovery battle skill (Peppita is benefited as well) that is good stuff when levelled. It sucks to start off w/th but becomes decent at around L4/5 (especially considering she can chain it i.e HD > HD > HD > HD etc until out of fury) and ends up as good stuff i.e full healing later yeah.

So .. I'm thinking ...  on F4/5 it'd be more valuable for the MT revive w/th Life since the healing is not that good to start w/th and Life basically makes it a non factor. By that stage of the dungeon Sharanda has high MT healing + MT revival w/th Gates of Heaven and Rainbow Breath is MT 50% healing + MT status cure ... and Nel's ST Healing is now solid.

It ... sounds .. yummy. Peppita would wind up w/th 50% MT healing w/th 1HP MT revival eventually too .. so it's a potential four solid healers + two revivers + Nall.

I has physicals (Maria/Nel/Peppita), I has magic (Sharanda/Meru/Nel), I has healing (Meru/Nel/Peppita/Sharanda), revival (Life, Sharanda, Nall) , I has status (Maria/Nel/Peppita), I has buffs (Maria, Peppita) and I has MP regen (Peppita)

Team loses Lenneth + Mia's DEF buffs but ...

Nel (Life)/Maria/Sharanda/Peppita/Meru/Nall

Any complaints!?~

Okay, looking at this team intently... CT, I hate to say it, but this is unfortunately a very poor team. At a glance, sure, it seems you've covered all bases (Maria and Nel have physicals! Sharanda and Meru have magic! Nel has Life for Revival! Nall revives after battle! Peppita has support and healing!). However, the issues are very glaring.

Sharanda, assuming she gets items, is the only one who can use magical damage from the get-go, and those not only are limited in supply (you can't get more than 32 in-game, assuming you have absolutely nothing else on the inventory. That's not going to get a lot of resource respect, and they're rare and expensive in the first couple floors, which won't help), and they're actually not great on the damage curve. They look better in-game with weakness hitting, for starters, which you can more or less always do in-game, and LoD randoms are frail. For average purposes, they're not going to be much better than average damage, and have serious wallability issues. Elemental reliance is a bitch that way. She doesn't get her Dragoon until Floor 2/3, and she needs -multiple turns to access those forms-. I.e. she's an MT healer who needs to attack with her terrible, terrible physical for multiple turns (until she gets the SP for Dragoon forms. She only gets to transform turn two lategame, and even having to attack first to heal is a big drawback), then transform to heal. And she gets four shots -per floor- at best of that MT healing. Less if you use anything else. Then, she's very physically frail (Yulie-level pdur makes you very easy to pick apart), never good on a healer. She's even fairly fast, but you need resources for a prolonged run and to be able to survive the people who do outpace your team. If you rely on her for MT healing, you will suffer, because it has a multiple turn windup and it can easily be insufficient to hold your team for a single fight, let alone a full floor. And if you rely on WSD? That thing is -OPF-. And doesn't even OHKO average durability. It can at most let you win a fight -if you stall long enough for it-, and that's not enough.

Meru. Even frailer than Sharanda, has the same short and long-term issues. Her healing is worse (4PF, 50%? That's not good, you need full healing on the dungeon), she's even more easily picked apart than Sharanda and her damage isn't much better (she needs her final tech to do averagish damage with her physical. The ones coming before that are awful). BSD has the same issues as WSD for resources, and doesn't even give you the healing (2HKO MT damage that has a one-turn windup doesn't work in the dungeon. A team with multiple healers eats that for free, for instance, and people can easily kill both Sharanda and Meru before they get their next turn).

Both of those PCs are quite effective in-game, I know, but the way they're good in-game just doesn't translate to the dungeon. Dungeon enemies are far more durable than LoD enemies, have far more offense and can pick apart the typical LoD mangling strategy with ease. The transition isn't kind to them, sadly.

Nel... her healing will be -really- awful with Life sealstone, and she's your only reviver. If you need revival midfight, Nel will be the first to go and then you will lose the floor in the long run, because Nel won't be able to pick herself up to speed (she'll need three shots of her healing to go back to full from 1 HP at endgame, to give you an idea. Earlier than that, it'll only be worse. Healing starts at 35% mHP, so it'll be less than 20% mHP by then. Even on floor 1, if you don't have at least close to full healing, you're getting overwhelmed). Nel's damage is also easily walled and entirely ST, and it takes until floor 3 to pick up. Since she's your best long-term damage dealer, you'll need to rely on her way too much to blitz, and she can't do that by herself. She's a lynchpin with that team design, your team crumbles into dust the minute the opposition pegs her down.

Maria has similar issues, only she's actually openly frail instead of averagish and doesn't even have healing (unless Neph adds Common Support Symbols to her claim list). And her damage in-dungeon doesn't translate to what she does in-game. I'll have to add, what the people do on those videos is generally not what people will see happening in these fights, they -will- rein that in. SO3 PCs don't like the transition to the turn system much, but there's not much you can do about it. Maria's damage in the dungeon suffers for it, and a lot of people will see it as below average by endgame, and it's not even that good on averages midgame. That's not blitzing well. Not to mention that her poor speed (which she needs to use to do her damaging combos, since they involve her getting into melee range and comboing into Scatter Beams) makes her bait to boot. And, as super said, unimpressive speed ST damage doesn't make waves in the dungeon (if you bring up Raquel, I'll point to how many teams tried her out and then got flattened. She probably doesn't deserve the 3.0 label in the dungeon). You need strong, available crowd control to blitz effectively here. And the fact you can't ever make your PCs any faster in any way makes this even worse.

Finally, Peppita... her support does not translate to the dungeon. Her healing dance is gradual and starts off very bad, both things being easy to overwhelm (and if she gets hit, it's interrupted to boot. Healing Dance is terrible in the DL, and it won't be any better in the dungeon). Power Dance most likely won't get initiative or speed bonuses from the people voting (and wouldn't get them from me). She is frail, somewhat sluggish and she has to constantly sacrifice offense for support and support for offense, along with starting out downright awful.

Considering all those problems, Nall can't even begin to fix the revival issue. Your team is unlikely to make out of stalling fights without people dead, and getting back up to speed will be painful due to the insane limitations on the healing (only one healer at will? That's entirely ST? Off the nerf dropped due to Life? Doesn't work). Your team is unlikely to blitz things due to their damage being backloaded, mostly single-target and easily walled. Your team is unlikely to survive blitzes due to the appalling durability across the board and the unhealthy reliance on a single person to patch things up - one person that is poorly equipped to do that to boot (And I've said it before: Meru and Sharanda are absolutely awful healers. Horrible resources and can't access the healing before turn two. The dungeon won't give you many opportunities to store SP -at all-, and you have to rebuild it all over the moment you use it. Even worse, trying LoD defend will get you outhealed really fast. It worked on LoD in-game because enemies were just awful at dealing damage. In the dungeon, anything worth its salt will break through it). I can't see this team going beyond floor 2 and it'd struggle mightily to floor 1. I know you respect those characters a lot, but they just work poorly together, and the dungeon is a place where interp clashes tend to end out with the team submitter on the losing side. You won't have an easy time presenting a good argument for them, and even if you do, the difficult interpretations, the general muddiness on the averages in all the games involved and the mechanics system clash will easily tide things against your best hopes. It'd be an invitation to frustration.

If you want some help trying to create teams that involve your favorites, chime me or super - or the peeps in general - up, we can help. But you wanted some honest feedback about your team, and I'm being as straight as I can be with the assessment. I'd honestly go back to the drawing board and try another design.


 

[DjinnAndTonic]

Was looking at the wiki.

Neph, did you shuffle around a bunch of Ivan's Djinni availability? Or just restrict when he can use certain classes?

You have it so Ivan can't even access the White Mage class until Floor 6? >.>;;

EDIT: Also, any thoughts on changing the penalty to the Status Symbol Sealstone?

[SnowFire]

Some thoughts on interpreting Skies of Arcadia in the dungeon.  Possibly irrelevant for me now that I'm not going with my planned team, but figured I might as well post this anyway in case others find it helpful.

** Special moves

FAQs fail on this regard.  Nobody can agree as to what the moonberry cost of various moves are; Epsilon Mirror is claimed to be both 2 and 3 MB; same with Skull Shield (but from different sources!), one guy claimed Drachma's ultimate only costs 3 MB, some claim Aika's Delta Shield costs 2 MB vs. 1 MB...  ARGH.  I believe that Vyse is 0-1-2-2-4 (he starts with Cutlass Fury); Aika & Fina are 1-1-2-2-4; for everyone else, it's 1-2-4.  I'm not 100% sure, but if it's off, it's not off by much.  The fairest interpretation for special move gain seems to me to use Monopoly house building rules - equal build-up, tempered by who's actually in the party (Enrique isn't stealing early moonberries).  Here's roughly what I would propose to be a fair order:

"Stages" for the various equal spreads:
Lvl. 1 on core (1-2 MB)-> lvl.1 on Drachma (3 MB)-> lvl.2 on core (4-6 MB)-> lvl. 1 on Gilder (7 MB)-> lvl. 3 on core, lvl. 2 on Gilder (9-15 MB)-> lvl. 1 & 2 on Enrique (16-18 MB)-> lvl.4 on core (20-24 MB)-> lvl. 2 on Drachma (26 MB)-> lvl. 5 on core and lvl.3 on everyone else (30-50 MB).

The first number is "total moonberries acquired for a single character to learn a move in this group," the last is for all characters to have learned them.  So, if you let the Dungeon characters get first in line, then Aika would get Lambda Burst (her level 3) at 9 MB for example, or if you assume they get it exactly in the "middle," then Aika would get it at 12 MB.  I doubt it makes much difference.

Very rough game-by-floor chart:
F1: Pirate Isle, Sailor's Island, Valua (~4 MB)
F2: Nasr, Maramba (~6 MB)
F3: Ixataka, Deserted Island (~11 MB)
F4: Valua Part II, Esperanza, Dark Rift (~17 MB)
F5: Yafutoma, Glacia (~21 MB)
F6: Maw of Tartas, Dangral Island, Deep Sky (~25 MB)
F7: Silver Shrine, Soltis

These MB numbers are more like lower bounds (I got them from the magic of CTRL-Fing through a FAQ); they'll drop from random battles as well, especially toward the end of the game.  I for one certainly had two level 5 moves by Glacia without neglecting the temps TOO much, so I can certainly see handing out ultimate moves on Floor 6 rather than Floor 7.

Results:
Aika:
F1: Alpha Storm, Sacri, Noxi
F2: 2 SP, Delta Shield, Sacres
F3: Lambda Burst, Noxus, Sacrum
F4: Sacrulen
F5: 3 SP, Epsilon Mirror (?)
F6:
F7: Omega Psyclone
F8: 4 SP

Yeah, definitely remember if Aika could Delta Shield on Floor 3 coming up before, and...  not seeing it.  Checked a Youtube video, and Aika definitely has 2 SP in the Temple of Prynn (Nasr dungeon) which isn't that far into the game at all.  Also giving a somewhat aggressive magic schedule assuming that Aika is spending most of her time in Green magic, since that's all she can get in the DL anyway.

Aika's confusion weapon comes at varying parts of the game, I believe?  I got it stupidly early, 'cause I was playing on my college roommate's Dreamcast and he had bothered to activate the web-only content.  That's Floor 2-3ish IIRC (the merchant is in Maramba, just that it's pricy) and also gives Aika an excellent physical for the time.  On the GameCube, you have to beat the Vize / Anita/ Faina battle, which is accessible on Floor 5 but probably pretty tough.  If you played the original and didn't go on the web, no Swirlmerang for Aika at all.  Yay for horrific interp splits!

Also of note, yes, all Aika's special moves are magical and Red-elemental.  This means she single-handedly beats Rampage Drive if someone can keep her healed, but it also means that her specials damage tails off toward the last half of the game.

Gilder:
F1: Gilder's starting spells (Not 100% sure, but at least Curia, Pyri, Pyres, Increm, Crystali, Crystales, Wevli, and Quika.)
F2: 2 SP
F3: Gunslinger, Aura of Denial (solid argument for Gunslinger Floor 1 if you pretend he joined earlier, mind)
F4: Sylenis, Panika, Crystalum
F5: 3 SP, Crystalen
F6:
F7: 4 SP, The Claudia
F8: 5 SP

Weirdly enough, hypothetical early-game Gilder is a bit of a mage (despite him being no good at this in-game).  Skies Magic sucks, but Purple is the one sphere of magic which isn't insanely overpriced (it's ST damage costed at 1-2-3-4 SP for the increasing power), and Skies magic power is rather fixed.  As in, according to a seemingly reliable FAQ, physical moves have multipliers while Magic and Fina & Aika's specials have addends.  In other words, each extra point of Will increases magic damage by 2 points, while each point of Attack increases physical damage by...  more, potentially lots more (Pirate's Wrath has a multiplier of 7.5 for example, so +15 damage for each extra point of Attack).  So magic starts out passable and steadily loses ground as stats increase.

Also of note: Now that I look it up, Aura of Denial is 3 SP.  Meaning that Gilder's main move to recommend him doesn't come online 'till Floor 5.  Ouch.  I definitely think that in light of that, Gilder could use a discount to 1.5 points...  arguably even to 1.0?  Not sure he's ever been used anyway.  (If someone can also check if Gilder starts with Risan?  The stat topic doesn't list it, but since it's irrelevant in 99% of duels, that might just be an oversight.  It'd certainly help his standing if he did have it, though.).

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As another random comment, if Skies chararter gets to Floor 9 and above...  well, according to FAQs, spirit growth goes crazy at high levels.  As in, 20 spirit a turn when in the level 90s meaning Fina is flinging Eternums and Lunar Lights left and right.  Since this is totally at variance to how they work the entire game, and I never saw it myself, unsure of how much respect to give that.

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Thoughts on other Skies characters:

Enrique: Doesn't translate to the Dungeon alone at all, below average speed and Justice Shield is 4 SP.  Could be handy with other Skies characters, admittedly, but Justice Shield might come too late (Floor 4?).
Drachma: Really doesn't translate to the Dungeon.  Slow and backloads his damage too late.
Vyse: Could actually be interesting.  Beats things up with decent speed, and Skull Shield is kinda broken late if paired with other Skies characters.  Not great, but a possibility.
Fina: An amusing puny!  I can think of two ways of using her.

Fina (w/ SoA Magic)

Pros: Above-average speed!  Lots of options including revival, instant death and status healing!  Complete team restoration in Lunar Light!  Plenty of MP!  Cupil gets your team cute points!
Cons: ...and the worst SP growth in the game to power those abilities.  Epic physical durability.  Direly needs to be paired with another SoA character to get much use.

Fina's a 0.5 point pick and kinda like Shiho in that she *needs* a partner from the same game.  And even if she is paired with another SoA character, she's "stealing" their SP in order to do anything.  Flip side, she does have revival very early (always handy), she's putting SP into the pool for other SoA characters, she can also play the early-game Ice mage like Gilder does, and SoA Defend has initiative for surviving physical beatdowns when her skills aren't needed.

Also of note: the Cupil Ring, upon which DL Fina rests a lot of her strength, isn't happening until ~Floor 7-8 (1% drop rate in the final dungeon?  Ugh.).  The Cupil Ring's huge Will boost is what makes Lunar Glyph not entirely suck; without it, she's got only a ~40-50% chance of Stone, so ugh.  IIRC, magic statuses have similarly bad hit rates (but at least Silence is cheap if you're giving it a shot, and both Gilder & Fina spamming the 2 SP Sylenis should shut up an average speed mage).

Note that due to SP concerns, high level magic isn't much help except that it can reduce the resource load on a team's healers (paralyze last enemy, let Fina Focus a bunch, then heal the team), and maybe occasionally hit elemental weaknesses.  I'd propose something like:
Floor 1: Level 2 Silver Magic
F2: L3 Silver, L1 everything else
F3: L4 Silver, L2 everything else
F4: L5 Silver, L3 everything else
F5: L6 Silver, L4 everything else
F6: L5 everything else
F7: L6 everything else

ALTERNATELY:

Fina (w/ Restoration Items)

Since the various "X Crystals" are very cheap and do exactly the same thing as the spell, except cost no SP and thus don't suck.  Fina becomes a competent healer with this allowed, though she's got the same durability concerns, and her MT healing falls off rather noticeably in later floors (unless she pulls off a Lunar Light somehow).  This'd be something like:
F1: Sacri Crystal, Curia Crystal (500 ST healing, status healing)
F2: Sacres Crystal (1000 ST healing)
F3: Sacrum Crystal, Risan Crystal (1000 MT healing, 50% chance of 50% HP revival)
F5: Sacrulen Crystal, Riselem Crystal (Full ST heal, Full revival)

Unsure of the cost here - 1.5 points perhaps?  Comparable to Marle in the physical durability woes and the fact that most of her healing is ST.  Faster, but doesn't have Haste or Provoke.  I'd say that Item-Fina's probably a bit better than Marle, but Marle could probably use a discount to me anyway, so not sure that'd knock her up to 2 points necessarily.