Author Topic: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [World is Saved]  (Read 60746 times)

Maya Kumashiro

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #375 on: February 21, 2010, 03:03:28 AM »
* Almaz facepalms.

"More than willing". Sorry, I read that as "more willing".

Nathan Greaves

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #376 on: February 21, 2010, 03:05:43 AM »
I was about to point out that one could very well have a vote down without being "sold" on anyone but it appears Almaz has already found his mistake.

This rather comes across as Almaz desperately looking for a case and further raises my hackles toward him. Not that they could get much higher than they already are.

Margaret Houlihan

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #377 on: February 21, 2010, 03:59:28 AM »
Batmanuel... supposes he will chalk that up to misreading then?  All good, all good.

Batmanuel opposes tunnelling on one or two people, though, and strongly dislikes being yelled at for sharing his thoughts on others and not rabidly trying to get a single person lynched.  Almaz may have been misreading, but Kirk has been zoning in on Middle/Bat all game!  Others have expressed similar sentiments from time to time.  Batmanuel implores prudence, and also requests a votecount/status check.

Batmanuel is tired of either repeating himself or feeling like a lurker but has no further revolutionary insights.

Richter Belmont

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #378 on: February 21, 2010, 04:21:29 AM »

Squall...  do you remember your promise?  That'd you'd return here to the votecount you made, as if nothing had changed, waiting for me?

Batmanuel (2): James T. Kirk, The Tick, Flay, Axel, Smax, Almaz
Hazel (0): Gordon
Hilda (0): Almaz
James T. Kirk (3): Batmanuel, Gordon, The Middleman
The Middleman (5): Hazel, James T. Kirk, Axel, The Tick, Flay
The Tick (1): The Comedian
The Comedian (1): Hilda

No votes: Almaz, Axel, Flay, Gordon, Smax

With 12 heroes, it takes 7 to lynch.  Mission ends in 32 hours (which, to be clear, is technically Monday morning Eastern US time, not Sunday night as some indicated...  but it's 7:00 AM early, so it might as well be Sunday night?  Make of that what you will).

Nathan Greaves

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #379 on: February 21, 2010, 04:57:22 AM »
That's an awful lot of people with no vote down. What is up with you guys? This isn't Cowslip's Warren, where Rule #1 of Cowslip's Warren is "do not talk about the wires".

Well actually I can imagine what is up with Almaz and maybe Gordon but the rest of you have no excuse.

On second though I think I'll actually read the vote distribution and see that everyone has in fact voted! This is a new level of apathy from Squall, leaving five names in the No Vote count when they're clearly down somewhere in the chart.

Nathan Greaves

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #380 on: February 21, 2010, 04:58:47 AM »
Or I could be reading it wrong and realize it's saying none of those players have had votes cast against them.

Can we remove that line, please? It's quite confusing.

Richter Belmont

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #381 on: February 21, 2010, 05:07:41 AM »
If you look at the earlier votecounts, you'll see a "Hasn't voted" line which was indeed for players who had not cast votes.  I am a bit of a completionist and prefer to list the full active crew, even those without votes/unvotes.  If it's an issue, I can use "Zero votes" in the future.

Helga Pataki

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #382 on: February 21, 2010, 05:52:37 AM »
Ok, need to read over what I've missed, but I would like to throw a "What the flying fuck" out there in Bats' direction, for his "not being sold" on a case that he was pretty rabidly proposing at one point. (Will link once I find it. Unless I'm mistaken, in which case, I will apologize profusely and go sleep before coming back to this)

Helga Pataki

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #383 on: February 21, 2010, 06:28:48 AM »
First off, I shall retain that "What. The flying. Fuck" and, I mean... Ok, so maybe not rabidly going after him, but you were certainly aiming for a Kirk lynch with some passion. Gonna make some quick notes from today, in chronological order, of quotes I'll be referring to in my case on Bats, wherein I'll almost definitely be voting for him at the end of this, because seriously.

1. "while Comedian and Kirk both hopped on me fairly early yesterday and tried to take me down.  Kirk is on me straight away again today, and claims that the main reason why is he still wants Minuteman down!"

2. "Kirk is far more worrying in terms of sentiments, still tunneling for Middleman and I.  This is what I'd expect the last scum on a falling apart team to be doing."

3. "Lynching "for information" even in a situation like this is scummy and poor play, just to get that out there.  Lynch who you think is scum.  Axel, Kirk (in particular!) and Flay all keep talking about this;"

4. "Batmanuel also posits that Middleman and myself were the alternatives to the scum lynches on the first two days, and that if anything that should clear us and lynching us now is silly and letting scum back into the game.  "

5. "Batmanuel can think of nothing else to say on Kirk other than good grief look at his votes and his tunnel vision.  Suggesting Minuteman and myself are both scum while Kirk is town seems nothing less than absurd, if that were true scum would have killed Kirk to shut him up by now."

6. "I'm not that sold on Kirk,"

7. "I don't have much of an idea how scum would be playing at this point"

8. "Batmanuel opposes tunnelling on one or two people,"

First off, you spend a fair bit of time trying to get Kirk lynched in quotes 1, 2, 3, and 5. This directly contradicts quote 6, in which you say you're not quite sold on a case you yourself have been trying to sell all freaking day. If you're not sold on a case, don't sell it. Because as is, it feels like you're trying to continue a push for a Kirk lynch, or Comedian or Almaz, while seeming like, should one of them flip town, you can go "Oh, well, I wasn't too confident about that anyway." No. Bad.

Next up, you say you have no idea how scum would be playing at this point, yes? Yes. It's in quote freakin' 7. Well, guess what? Quotes 2-5 all have you saying quite the opposite. I can see the argument for 4 not fitting that, but that still leaves 2, 3, and 5. Yet more contradiction. Also gonna make a point of saying that you give a confident answer of how many scum are left in quote 2, by calling Kirk "the last scum." (Singling one guy out in that statement)

Then, you also say you oppose tunneling. Only... you've spent the entire day pointing fingers at Comedian and Kirk. If that isn't tunneling, what is? To add to this contradiction, since you've so cleanly pointed out Almaz as one of the people you'd like to lynch, might I also interest you in looking at your own posts, in which you tie your own fate to Almaz by saying he's been "mostly mirroring your own sentiments." And now you wish him lynched. Uhm, hypocrisy, much?

Final point: Where the hell is your case on Gordon? You said yourself that you'd much rather see a Gordon lynch than Planet on Day 2, and not even a hand wave to him today.

What. The. Flying. Fuck.

##Unvote: Middleman

##VOTE: Bats

Nathan Greaves

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #384 on: February 21, 2010, 12:49:45 PM »
Yeah see this is exactly the reason I haven't voted Batmanuel at all yet. All of the words-based cases on him have been unimpressive. A whole bunch of that is word-twisting and very little of it actually means anything.

- Batmanuel accuses Kirk of tunneling because Kirk's been going full steam ahead on him since the beginning of Day 2. Batmanuel has only been going after Kirk since the beginning of today. I feel Batmanuel's tunneling charge is both warranted and not hypocritical given these circumstances.
- Once again, one can believe in a case without being "sold" on it. How many cases that you voted for have you been "sold" on in your entire Mafia history? I'm willing to bet you've been wrong at times and unvoted at others. Not being "sold" is not a scumtell.
- The Gordon case was likely dropped after Planet's flip, because he'd been right twice.

The only thing here I'd remotely agree with pointing out is the change from "this is how I think scum would play" to "I don't know how scum would play" but I don't how truly scummy this is as opposed to possibly just game theory opinions changing over time.

Yoshiken

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #385 on: February 21, 2010, 01:26:39 PM »
Your NOBLE and VALIANT moderator hath returned to... count votes. Well, it's all in a day's work.

Current Votes:
Batmanuel (3): Kirk, Tick, Flay, Axel, Smax, Almaz, Flay
Hazel (0): Gordon
Hilda (0): Almaz
Kirk (3): Batmanuel, Gordon, Middleman
Middleman (4): Hazel, Kirk, Axel, Tick, Flay
Tick (1): Comedian
Comedian (1): Hilda

With 12 heroes, it takes 7 to lynch.  Day ends in 22 hours 30 minutes. (7am EST)

Tohsaka Rin

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #386 on: February 21, 2010, 02:11:30 PM »
Sorry, nothing new from me.

That's pretty much me by this point. Getting burned out, tired of running in circles over the same couple players who've been up for lynching for the past couple days and feeling there's little left to be said about them, want this day to end so we have some new information to work with. And again we're heading towards possible deadlock at day's end. I would rather not lynch Middleman yet since I think his contributions have been adequate since he got involved during day two and I still have doubts that his suicide attempt day one was anything but genuine. I acknowledge it's possible he's scum, just find it harder to believe than the other major suspects.

Hazel, since you're one of the most vocal holdouts here, can I ask you how you feel about Kirk given that he's the third contender right now? Apologies if you've gone over him before, mind is mush and I don't have it in me to do a large-scale reread. I know I myself haven't made a huge deal out of him aside from occasionally highlighting specific lines that look weird here and there, can be more specific if people want but it'll take some rereads and augh doing research near day's end. But numerous minor alarms + bad vote record and Tick's Kirk/MM theory having some merit, basically. I may as well do this, actually:

##Unvote: Batmanuel
##Vote: Kirk

Sorry, Flay, but despite all the talking it doesn't seem we're convincing anyone new on Bats. I'm also starting to wonder whether I've focused on him to the point of ignoring other possibilities, along with considering that he could've just been a hapless townie caught on a train scum tried to use for their own purposes.

And yes, I know I'm tying the vote despite my frequent bitching about hating deadlock. Just feel like I need to take a new approach here instead of arguing Bats vs. Middleman constantly, especially since it looks clear how that's turning out.

~

Comedian, care to share your thoughts on the current vote leaders? It'd be good to know since, well, from where I'm sitting you're in line for a lynch somewhere in the future for mostly not saying anything.

Nathan Greaves

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #387 on: February 21, 2010, 02:24:07 PM »
I've had some vague lingering nags about Kirk for about a day and a half at this point but they were never anything really strong and I had a hard time tangibly vocalizing them so I didn't say anything. There was that one time that Kirk brushed off the Gordon case on grounds completely unrelated to the validity of the case that annoyed me, however, and I did talk about that in the Day 2 ending chicanery.

Then there is this, from one of my most recent posts:

Tick's Day 1 vote count snapshot post and explanation actually makes me want to vote Kirk over Batmanuel should the Man in the Middle flip scum. That's a pretty good find.

On the whole I would not shed any tears if Kirk bit it today, though I'd prefer a Man in the Middle lynch (or an Almaz lynch but there's no way that's happening). If the Man in the Middle flips scum I'll almost surely vote Kirk tomorrow, there's no reason for Planet and Prinny to pile on Town Flay-rah over Town Kirk as Tick pointed out. If the Man in the Middle flips town, though, I'll probably vote Almaz, he missed both scum trains and been saying some very questionable things all game (finding no fault in the Prinny defense post, proposing a plan to let Planet live through Day 2, that faux case on Batmanuel just recently that looks like a desperate dive onto a case).

Nathan Greaves

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #388 on: February 21, 2010, 02:29:20 PM »
I will also say that I really want to give the Comic the benefit of the doubt but he is doing himself absolutely no favors by not posting more.

Alice Margatroid

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #389 on: February 21, 2010, 03:35:13 PM »
Middleman vs Kirk? I can live with that I guess.

Princess Leia

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #390 on: February 21, 2010, 03:59:10 PM »
Hazel's post right before the votecount up there has me bobbing my head along in agreement. Sums up how I'm feeling about Batmandude right now pretty well.

Things swinging between Kirk and Middleman? Well, I think I've made it as clear as I can about where my preferances there lie. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

Sadly, I verly likely won't be back for another twelve hours or so. Birthday in the family, so of course the Dark Hero has to put in an appearance. Might try to sneak on the computer over there if things get slow, but otherwise you'll see me again late tonight.

Asuka Langley

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #391 on: February 21, 2010, 04:44:53 PM »
Behold! I have returned!

To the sight of Manuel being accused of flipflopping against Kirk and Almaz flailing on another case. Hmm.

Flay's case...doesn't feel as strong as he makes it out to be, though. Just because he wasn't 100% sure of the case on Kirk doesn't mean his flipflopping. After all, his vote is still there!

Also;
Quote
Also gonna make a point of saying that you give a confident answer of how many scum are left in quote 2, by calling Kirk "the last scum."
Pretty sure scum can be plural and singular. Miss Rep called.

Not convinced by this case, still prefer Kirk/Middleman lynch today.

Helga Pataki

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #392 on: February 21, 2010, 06:35:44 PM »
No offense, friends, but I'd rather have Batmanuel himself give his defense! Though the part you quoted, Gordon, was not meant to be an actual part of the case, but merely me making an observation. As you can see, I'm a bit forgetful at times, so I like to make notes so I don't forget things completely.

Hazel: I have no problems with him voting Kirk despite not being sold on it. My problems lie with him trying to sell the Kirk case if he's not sold on it himself. His words go far beyond just saying "here is my case" and go directly into trying to convince others to lynch him. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make myself, though, and I hope people will stop misreading this part of my case. (As for the rest, well, I guess we just find different things suspicious)

Gonna throw it out there that I still believe Almaz one of the more town people that aren't Hiro/Tick. The complete abandonment of hopping onto any sort of easy train and instead focusing his efforts just doesn't feel scummy to me. Also, to those of you who are making more cases out of "but he wasn't voting Planet!" and him making excuses and yadda yadda, look at the mayhem that preceded end of day. He tells Hiro to hammer, and Hiro himself isn't completely positive about voting off Planet. Almaz also is quite present at end of day putting some pressure down.

IOW, Almaz reacted just like anybody else at the end of Day 2. To me, his case feels like a stretch.

On reread, though, I did notice that Middleman put Planet at the tie vote, could be a scumploy, WIFOM, etc. However, this does make me trust him just that little bit more, and while I'm keeping my vote where it is right now (until I see where the rest of ya' feel about Bats, and I hear back from the Manuel himself) I am willing to switch to... hmm. Not too sure, actually. Gonna have to re-read. But might I point out that the Kirk "train" was only at 2 votes at the time, and I was looking far worse than him? Tick's screenshot, while helpful, doesn't have my vote switch from Kirk to MM on it.

Anyways, off to re-read.

Helga Pataki

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #393 on: February 21, 2010, 06:40:43 PM »
Wait a second. Gordon, I think you misread what I said, too. Bats was referring solely to Kirk when he said "the last scum." Referring to one person there means saying "one person left on the scum team." That was actually pretty specific as to whether it was singular or plural.

Asuka Langley

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #394 on: February 21, 2010, 07:20:52 PM »
Wait a second. Gordon, I think you misread what I said, too. Bats was referring solely to Kirk when he said "the last scum." Referring to one person there means saying "one person left on the scum team." That was actually pretty specific as to whether it was singular or plural.
This is another semantics argument, and the last one of those we had achieved nothing so I'm stopping here.

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #395 on: February 21, 2010, 08:14:07 PM »
Alright, here's the deal, I have not been on a computer in the last 24 hours, and this is just a quick check to see what's up before I go to sleep.  So, I will have jack all for new material, and no RP in this post.  I just want to quickly address a few points and then sleep.

First point, the whole how was I able to post three times without presenting the new case I promised.

That's pretty simple actually.  The price of being able to post from work is that I have work where I have to be able to drop what I'm doing and deal with stuff on the fly.  After the first half of the shift this happens fairly often.  This means that brainless things I already have a position on where it's just explaining stuff I already have a handle on is easy.  But doing things that actually take brain power, like figuring out exactly what I think about Almaz, is a lot trickier, and requires a certain amount of time where I can actually just let everything stew as I slowly read over his posts.  This was not to be, and still has not been.

To whoever it was that said that I brushed off my own not being around.  I didn't, not really.  I do agree my voting record is shit, and I'm actually pretty annoyed that both times I left I came back to find that things had turned sideways on me.  Granted, we got scum, yay!  But the fact that most of my suspicions have been untested and that I haven't had a chance to freaking vote based off of the information available at day's end, and that I have no choice but to look bad because of that, yeah, that's annoying.

But, that's not what interests you.  What interests you is how I'm not making light of the fact that I'm not around.  And that's simple.  It's because it's a fact that I'm not around, and that I'm specifically not around because of issues relating to work.  There's nothing more to it than that.  Which means my absenses would look exactly the same regardless of what Role PM I was given.

Next up, why didn't the Scum go after me on Day 1?  Probably because Flay looked like a better lynch for a lot of reasons.  Remember, when they did their jump, the case on me was pretty much dead.  I don't have time to go looking for quotes, but I'm pretty sure someone mentioned that one of the reasons they thought Flay looked funny was because he voted for a dead train, aka me.  Dead trains don't save scum.  Not to mention Flay's random jumping did make him look good.  And I'm all but certain that the first vote for him was a legit Townie vote, which meant there was something that looked like they could latch onto there.

Random other observations.

People arguing that Bats can't be scum because there's no way in hell scum would rapid vote three times in succession because it doesn't make sense.  Honestly, I think that's a very bad argument, because it makes almost as little sense for scum to rapidly doublevote someone as well, and we have proof they did that on Day 1.  So, as much as it offends my instincts, we have proof that rapid multivoting is something that this scum team does when they think they can get away with it.  Which means that any argument to clear someone that relies on an argument that scum does not do that is, in this game, demonstrably false.

Almaz and Middleman cannot both be scum.  They might both be town, but they can't both be scum.  Almaz's Day 1 choice for Middleman and the loss of cred that came with it, and his subsequent attempt to argue in favor of a Middleman lynch today doesn't make sense if they are both scum.  Currently inclined to say this favors Almaz, but my read on him is incomplete, and I know part of that is my bias due to believing Middleman to be scum.

Hmm...  is there anything else?  Not that I can recall.  Still leaning Middleman, though my reread on Almaz did get me one thing.  Comedian is playing a lot like scum Rat.  Not sure enough of identity to vote solely on that, especially when I can't get my head around exactly what each lynch means...

Oh, right!  The argument about my wanting to lynch Middleman for info.  Utterly false.  Bats was the guy I wanted to lynch for info, and that was mostly because I didn't think Planet was scum on Day 2.  Planet's flip and his claim kinda got most of the info I wanted from the Bats lynch into the open, which killed that motive.  Middleman I'm on mostly just because I want to lynch him, since I think he's the best case as of 24 hours ago.

Hmm, one other thing about my tunnel vision.  Day 1 it was because I was busy, Day 2, probably because that's the way the conversation went for me, and where I noticed points to make.  As of Day 3, it's because there's only 4 or 5 people I really feel there's any point in talking about anymore.  And of those five, I haven't had time to read up on two of them as much as I'd like (Almaz and Hazel), the Comedian there actually isn't anything to talk about, and the other two are my good friends Bats and Middleman.  I suppose Gordon's also probably worth talking about, but right now I have a hard time seeing him as scum, which means he's not a high priority to reread, or to talk about really.

And now to close.  Yeah, I'm gonna be kinda useless for the rest of today between sleep and work, but if I do survive, the first bit of Day 4 will come during my weekend, so I'll actually be able to post and give reasoning for all of those things you want me to answer.

Helga Pataki

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #396 on: February 21, 2010, 09:19:01 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the theories, as they stand, are MM/Kirk and MM/Bats, yes? Well, if MM is in both theories, then... logically, he should go down first. I'm cool with any of the three going down, and this really does come down to "who's flip will tell the most" at this point. And, to me, that's MM. If he's scum, we can begin focusing. If he isn't, then we can at least scratch our heads at the scum team and begin looking at other people with a lot more focus. (Personally, I'm leaning Gordon > Kirk, if MM is town. I can still see a Gordon/Kirk team, which I covered in one of my earlier posts) So, with all that said...

##UNVOTE: Batmanuel

##Vote: Middleman


And hopefully this day will end soon, because at this point it's just excruciating.

Asuka Langley

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #397 on: February 21, 2010, 09:35:31 PM »
People arguing that Bats can't be scum because there's no way in hell scum would rapid vote three times in succession because it doesn't make sense.  Honestly, I think that's a very bad argument, because it makes almost as little sense for scum to rapidly doublevote someone as well, and we have proof they did that on Day 1.  So, as much as it offends my instincts, we have proof that rapid multivoting is something that this scum team does when they think they can get away with it.  Which means that any argument to clear someone that relies on an argument that scum does not do that is, in this game, demonstrably false.
'Two quickvotes is as likely as three quickvotes' makes as much sense as 'two sixes in a row are as likely as three sixes in a row'. It's an outright fallacy.
Risking two scum is dangerous in itself. Three scum is worse still.

I'm going to have to agree with Flay on this day being excruciating. Odds of a Kirk lynch today are just about zero, so:

##GORDON UNVOTE!: Kirk
##GORDON VOTE!: Middleman (L-1))


He's going to be having us worried the whole time he's alive, apparently. Everyone is just about done talking, so...yeah.

Asuka Langley

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #398 on: February 21, 2010, 09:40:27 PM »
EBWOP: Any chance the Comedian could stick his head in and say something useful? Paranoid theories about masons aren't really cases. Possibility or not, there are also other cases to consider - say, the current MM/Kirk/Manuel discussion, which you don't even touch on!

Yoshiken

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Re: VALIANT HERO Mafia! [Day Three]
« Reply #399 on: February 21, 2010, 09:56:59 PM »
Current Votes:
Batmanuel (1): Kirk, Tick, Flay, Axel, Smax, Almaz, Flay
Hazel (0): Gordon
Hilda (0): Almaz
Kirk (3): Batmanuel, Gordon, Middleman, Smax
Middleman (6): Hazel, Kirk, Axel, Tick, Flay, Flay, Gordon
Tick (1): Comedian
Comedian (1): Hilda

With 12 heroes, it takes 7 to lynch.  Day ends in 14 hours. (7am EST)