A memes to an end(Meme Mafia: Game Over)

[Margaret Houlihan]

Yeah, I.. wow. Just went back and read Xbox's first post after the call from Touhou. It's a lot of active lurking, isn't it? Annoyed at myself for skimming over that the first time, and can't help feeling I'm tunnelling against Soviet now as a result. Definitely worth a re-read when I've more time and my computer's not being a bitch. The fact that Soviet's arguing against role speculation after pushing No Lynch D1 is ridiculous, and I still don't buy his "It's a TRAP!" argument from D1 with regards to that.
...Wow, also thought "Yeah, that Russian post he linked to -was- bad!" and... he attacks it for all the wrong reasons. grasgsdahasdfad.

Xbox and Touhou ninjas.
Xbox: That's because whether or not the Cat's flip affects thing comes down to whether you see it as a WIFOM or not. There's not really much of a counter-argument to put forward to that view other than "WIFOM, ignore."
Touhou: Seems obvious to me that the third quote there is "Both are suspicious, but this one gives more info." It's not all about the info, from the looks of things.
Otherwise, just to differentiate between lurking and active lurking. Active lurking is scummy. Lurking on it's own is not scummy, that's modkill territory.

Holy crap AYB ninja posting now and then reading.

[Princess Leia]

Please tell me this means somethin' other than "I'm votin' Commie for th' info his lynch'll give us", because that's how it zoggin' well looks t' me, and that's a terrible reason to vote for someone.

That's not what it means at all; I want to see what the commie says while under a bit more pressure, and how the rest of us react. If it came down to me singlehandedly choosing who to lynch right now, it would be 2g1c. But even assuming enough people were with me to put 2g1c in danger, I think that would be less informative; apart from anything else, they were happily back-and-forthing with me without needing the emphasis of a vote.

[Margaret Houlihan]

Okay, nothing to add from that except that the whole paragraph to Zerg Rush changes nothing for me. I'm still seeing the "so scummy they can't be" as bad, in much the same way Xbox's "so townie they can't be" was terrible. If someone is acting scummy, don't just give them a free pass, especially not in Anonymafia.

Xbox ninja... what. Saying the vote is a pressure vote only removes any pressure it applied, and you should definitely clearly state who you think is scummiest if you're not voting for them (and that should only be in situations close to lynch anyways.)

Soviet > Xbox >>> AYB/Combo. Will wait until Soviet's next post to see if it pushes him ahead of Xbox in my eyes.

[Princess Leia]

Can't sleep. Town'll lynch me.

Saying the vote is a pressure vote only removes any pressure it applied

It's not a pure pressure vote; I still consider soviet russia an entirely viable lynch. So the pressure remains real.

and you should definitely clearly state who you think is scummiest if you're not voting for them

Doesn't that go against the above?

[Margaret Houlihan]

Demotivator (mostly) unrelated, but awesome.

There are a few situations I can understand not voting for the scummiest person, though (being close to lynch being the main one), which is what the second point refers to. In those cases, you need to say who you think is scummiest.
Otherwise? Don't tell someone a vote is just a pressure vote, whether it is or not. And the way you phrased that before was horrible, hence me seeing it as you going "lol pressure" and nothing else.

[Tron Bonne]

Okay, I'm finally back from the weekend. Terribly sorry about disappearing, but I left before day 2 actually -started- and wasn't able to at least publically give the heads up on it before going (mod was notified, at least). And... mrrrrrf, I have a lot to catch up on. I'll do reading/re-reading to catch up on the times and will try to post something coherent as soon as I can wrap my head around what happened here.

[Helga Pataki]

Fever of 101 degrees. Going to keep this brief; I'd wanted to break down Combo and Shana a bit but I don't think I'm going to stay awake that long. RP also out the window for this post, can't be bothered to pull out my pics.

Apologies for tone, I got rather annoyed because it's felt like 90% of my posts aren't even being read and so I was snapping at people. Said anger also lead to the !cake vote. Bluntly put I still do not trust !cake, and disagree with Touhou on solely lynching scum - we are to eliminate all non-town aspects. But the lynch won't go anywhere, in retrospect.

##unvote: The Cake Is A Lie

Uncertain how close I am to lynch. Regardless. Wrapup of thoughts: Shana I wanted to look over because thinking on it I'm not certain on her, which doesn't fill me with confidence. Think she only has a post today, might have two, can't recall which. Combo's struck me as low-grade offbeat all game and while I can't qualify that yet (want to do a breakdown on him first) it's something I wanted to look into. That's why I wanted to break down those two.

Putting Astley aside as well since that seems to be a waste of my energy and I've had one of the more aggravating points explained,

##vote: Soviet Russia

Covered my grievances there earlier, page 8 in specific, used name Red Red Red. Exhausted now, passing out.

[Chiaki]

can I has votecount :V

XBOX: Invoking the ol' too townie fallacy, I see! Not exactly a brilliant start, and the textbook way in which you seem to run through the player list over a few posts to talk about most of the game doesn't sit too well. focussssss. (continued disagreement with demotivation that the content is good on the whole too.) So.. it looks like I agree with AYB mostly here.

2g1c: Are you implying cake is thirdparty there? >_>

[Alice Margatroid]

I got basic'ly nothin' else to say 'bout the box, his buncha posts really speak for 'emselves at this point. Knee-slappin' that he says the two girls are the ones that he's most suspicious of while his vote ain't there, since I'm not thinkin' they're really close to a lynchin'. Demoman's gone over the pressure stuff for me.

Waitin' for a vote count, a Ruskie post, a Milhouse post, a Princey post...God, I zoggin' hate waitin'. Guess I'll go'n'see what Parsee's up to. Maybe snag a drink or ten while'm out an' about, too.

[Asuka Langley]

Suddenly activity! Everywhere! Really, practically everywhere!

Before I navigate this wild new landscape, two direct questions to answer. The game theory I think clogs up space, but hey, I tried to leave it out earlier.

Do I really need to explain why I think it's clear that the claim should deflect anything but the reddest of hands at this point?

Yes, it's useful that they're letting town know that there exists a roleblocker, but at the same time, how does it clear them? Pardon me if I'm being blind or something atm.

As a general rule, claims tie people down to observable facts further down the line. It is not the be all and end all (no, it does not clear), but often strong enough to postpone minor threats, especially early on. In this particular case with a roleblocker, if 2g1c is scum then she knows if there's a roleblocker or not. But if she knows there's a roleblocker then she knows there's a large risk from someone else claiming to be roleblocked, especially in this role madness set up. So that much you should see can be ruled out. Otherwise she knows there is no roleblocker, in which case she's massively backed herself into a corner because the 'roleblocker' needs to keep on producing results, which can only happen on herself or on other members of the scum team, which will look horrible regardless and even worse if there's someone out there who screams 'roleblock me' who then isn't. In short I'd all but dismiss that there for all but really gutsy scum, and the set up doesn't make me suspicious of that.

But sure, now assume she's town, and hence has been roleblocked. That roleblocker then either moves to someone else, who can then corroborate her claim, sticks to 2g1c to keep her roleless and unconfirmed, or forego the action altogether. In any case, waiting even one day gains town something and costs scum something else. I really shouldn't go into any further specifics around this point as there are a lot of different cases depending on which roles are around as to what I'd expect from scum and what town ought to do, and that's a huge barrel of wrongness.

There are ways this resolves inconclusively, and the interesting way to break this is if it's a town roleblocker, but the latter is pointless role speculation up to the point that such a claim is made, and the former just means a resolution depending on the circumstances (positive if, say, it looks like the roleblocker was lynched. Negative if, say, the set up doesn't justify the person having been roleblocked).

Anyway, at a basic level it's a minor positive, with an amplified effect for it being early in the game. It should not draw you away from someone you're really sure of, but should likely be the tipping factor on close calls at this point due to the likely payout, and how dangerous it is for scum if there is a lie, as it can go wrong in so many ways. In this particular case I'm far more inclined to push it as genuine given the context of the claim and the plausibility of 2g1c being roleblocked (argh, no, don't really think about scum actions as part of the case, but I can see town2g1c being a guess from scum for key power role. No, don't think about the plausibility of whether she actually is a key power role or not, that's irrelevant. Mess mess mess mess mess, and part of why it should go unsaid).

Advice Dog: Could you do a chattering horde of insectile beasts a favor and post just a quick, condensed, cliff notes version of your argument on -2C? I'd appreciate it.

KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE!

As good a time as any to recap on the situation, as the various shinies seem to be distracting from it.

The case on C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER, AKA C-C-C-C, AKA -2C

Screamingly Clear Issues

• Setting up and executing one of the laziest delayed votes I've ever seen. Incredibly predictable in execution right from the start. Model quote for this being "I'm not pulling off until X-Box posts something substantive."
• When Retconning Goes Wrong. Responds to 'what's with the shift in opinion on Commie between days?' by saying that Commie is in fact still top of his list and has voted... for someone less scummy... because... uh... uhhhh...... it was a point worth mentioning? This point combos with the above quite neatly.

Other Issues Of Differing Importance

• Another delayed vote back in day one on Dawg. A lot less bad than the other one, when taken by itself.
• The aforementioned change in tone with the Commie. Solid proponent of the train day one even in the face of the mountain growing under o9k, which suddenly translates into light prodding at the start of day two while he whistles his way onto a lurker vote.
• Third paragraph here. Garble garble garble garble.
• Case on the original big black box wasn't explicitly for the dedicated levels of lurkery, but for the total coincidence that his joke vote happened to be the person the box ended up wanting to vote for.
• Oddly shallow case on the Commie despite him topping his list.
• Do a calculation on how much of his input is in the form of asking questions. Add that to talking about waiting for answers.
• Misrep on Dawg day one. Oh god don't bring this particular point to the foreground again we'll be here all day.
• Argument that followed the above, that span on to the end of day one. Very aggressive about turning something that should have been a case to brush off into something to actively turn against Dawg. Key quotes here would be "I would say [...] you're actually trying to paint me in a bad light now" and practically the entire first paragraph here.
• Left his joke vote down through a serious post before finally switching at the sign of the first shiny thing.
• Very oddly supportive of o9k, even on his slide out. I don't expect this point to convince many/anyone, but I would expect some scum to be positive about the lynch candidate to gain minor rep later for not being on the train. That much is standard, but how overly scummy o9k was despite being town is not, and I figured any such support for o9k should be taken under serious consideration as potential scum, and -2C comes out trumps in support of o9k, if still sedated.

I think that's it, if I'm keeping things relatively simple. May have missed something here or there, and have only rehashed my own points, so this is without other opinions on him.


Oh man I'm done. Let me actually read something new and return to the present.

[Chad Hutchins]

In Soviet Russia, mafia game read you!

As opposed to you reading it.  Which seems to be the case for several people voting against loyal communist workers.  I have no idea what to say when votes and arguments against me are constantly tempered by "Oh whoops didn't actually read X nevermind!  But uh VOTE SOVIET ANYWAY he's an easy target!"

Uhh okay.  Brave Soviets know better than to attack into Russian winter, though, so instead of even trying to array defense versus conflicting attacks, let us be clear.

Attacking 2 girls 1 cup for claiming to be roleblocked is stupid like capitalist economic system.  Is like I not even looking at same game!  Anyone actually voting 2 girls 1 cup for thees is capitalist or insane.

XBox come in, totally not read game, again ees like I am reading posts from strange foreign country.  Is possibly very scummy, no idea what to do but okay with lynch.

Zerg Rush attack me for pursuing lurkers over old cases.  This is silly, lurking IS scummy behavior, scummiEST behavior in fact, and stubbornly clinging to old cases with nobody else agreeing help no one.  Meelhouse for example, case on him already made, and other townies say they not see it, they not agree.  Fine for now.  My point is made, town know I am wanting to lynch him, I know nobody else want to lynch him at present day, why continue to press issue with nothing new to say when other nations are embracing capitalism as well?  (And why do I find myself under attack for trying to garner support on Astley now instead of Meelhouse?)

Advice Dog case on Combo Breaker look pretty sound, except accusations of support for O9k.  I disagree on O9k being scummy, I definitely got confused loyal communist on him at end, and I know I am town so it is not at all impossible to figure out!  On other hand, from own interaction with Combo Breaker, is obvious man is indeed not reading much and asking questions instead of answering, very passive.  Willing to vote that too.   

Would really like votecount, though.  Confusing game, votecounts probably need to be more frequent than have been.  Still prefer Astley for now since as far as I can tell he's a front runner in the "lynch 2girls for claiming roleblocked" stuff, in addition to his lurk and not say much positive.

[VySaika]

It's...it's...it's...OVER(due) FOR A VOTECOUNT!!!!!

Votecount
Soviet Russia: (6) - Demotivator, Zerg Rush, SHANA IS HOT, XBOX, COMBO BREAKER, 2girls1cup
Cake: (0) - Touhou Hijacker, Advice Dog, Zerg Rush, 2girls1cup
XBOX: (2) - Touhou Hijacker, COMBO BREAKER, Touhou Hijacker, All Your Base
2girls1cup: (2) - Touhou Hijacker Rick Astley, Cake
SHANA IS HOT: (0) - Cake
Rick Astley: (1) - 2girls1cup Soviet Russia
Demotivator: (0) - SHANA IS HOT
COMBO BREAKER: (1) - Advice Dog

With 14 memes alive, it takes 8 votes to axe someone in the face.

[Asuka Langley]

Let's play catch up, Advice Doggy Style.


Guess I should have mentioned just how easily -2C jumps away from the XBox 360 in the face of this uninspiring performance. It makes the swap to Commie look all the more predetermined.

Oh man is the XBox 360 logic chip relentlessly bad. I don't actually aggrieve him for getting some baseline opinions down for everyone, given the catch up nature of the situation. But on top of the muck I've already dug up, I'm seeing the terrible line of logic going down against 2g1c regarding the roleblock that I disagree with on so many levels. Especially the level of insisting that 2g1c should justify scum's night actions. That's just terrible (#209, #211). Foot then applied directly into mouth (and my palm to my face) for playing the "lynch for information, not for scummiest" game. Combined with back-pedalling already at this point, it's all looking rather bad (#218). Grararrrgglglgleeellelgee. That's the sound of XBox 360 with foot in mouth and down throat when then justifying some sort of crazy pressure vote but honestly guys I think this player I probably shouldn't be touching today needs to go (#226).

Disagree with the Hijack that we shouldn't be dealing with third parties in the general case, but in the specific case I don't especially care if !cake is a serial killer rather than a vigilante at the moment so long as !he's kept anti-scum, which !he's hammered himself into if true.

Disappointed with recent Poster play for the XBox 360 review, playing the waiting game on a Commie post to decide where his vote should be, and for bending in the wind more as time goes on. I liked you more when you had independent opinions.

Next I'm faced with CATS's Promised Post of General Longness. I always stumble when faced with a position from someone I've been waiting on that ends up mostly agreeing with my own positions as I can never tell how objectively I respond to them, but I'm reading this post relatively well, especially on convincing myself that a lot of what would otherwise read as rehashing very recent posts and aligning with myself and the Hijack doesn't really apply given that in at least the case of the Hijack, the posts were written concurrently. There are some minor things I should probably pick at, but don't feel the urge to press now. I'm a little confused about your position on the Commie, though, if you'd like to clarify that.

I don't see the Commie's claim that Rick has anything to do with voting for 2g1c for being roleblocked. I'd say the thing is having not referred to it at all. What I do find interesting is that this made me search Rick's posts for his case on 2g1c, which is... nearly non-existent. Outside of all of the defence on 2g1c's position on him, the one point of attack is for her case on !cake, which was already defunct, and it's actually a bad argument against her (defending !cake's rationale for not voting Zerg at the start of day one, which has been done to death and found 'guilty'). I'm really quite surprised, as I had this impression that they'd been fighting like cats and dogs for two days.


I can't say much to that vote count other than express my displeasure. Commie really isn't up there for me, and expect a scum or two to be on already (oh, hey there -2C, funny meeting you here). Would support a -2C, XBox 360 or Duck Roll v2 lynch at this point, roughly in that order. I'd rather not move down the chain from -2C if possible, but have flexibility as I'll be around for the deadline and the lead up to it.

That's enough from me for one evening.

[Tron Bonne]

Tangent for Rickroll, even though he seems conspicously absent: the listing was mainly a list of possible leads that we could take into day 2, most of which I noted being worth looking at as it'd go - I admit I could have gone into things in more detail, but I was pressed for time and very tired, and I'll admit I'm hardly in my top form even now, having gotten back not too long ago and being highly wired as of now.


But I'd like to regard Adult Swim Dog/Yo Pimp My Ride/Crappy Fighting Game shenanigans - from the onset, I smelled something was up in the air - Breaker and Dawg engaged a catfight which Advice Dog came up in defense of Yo Dawg, and it advanced further than a small spat - in fact, Yo Dawg openly mentioned that he thought Crappy Fighting Game Mechanic was openly scum. As the dust settled Pimp My Ride came up as a confirmed townie, and I have very, very little reason to think of Advice Dog as scum for the time being.

HOWEVER, Crappy Fighting Game Mechanic has managed to look steadily worse today - having read the mess we have today and looking back, I think there's good reason to think C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER may actually be scum. I could simply quote Advice Dog's entire last post summing up his case on Crappy Fighting Game Mechanic and take this for granted, since I think he hits more or less all the crucial points that need to be said here. Still, I'll try to reason in my own words a few things that deserve highlighting.

Here, we have Crappy Fighting Game mechanic trying to deflect away Advice Dog's suspicions via light misdirectional mudslinging and trying to look good by bringing up a paper thin case on a lurker alongside trying to justify suspicion on Soviet Russia being scummier than XBOX for the question he made about me that was answered by -many- people in varying ways (then later answered by Red Red Red himself. I don't know, but you're voting for someone over somebody else you find scummy and there's no threat of a lynch... why again? You didn't even gloss up on that.

Then, he swaps his vote straight into Soviet Russia with little to no justification even though 360's newly posted content itself hasn't made him look any better in any way from what happened before - in fact, XBOX's invocation of the "too town to be town" fallacy alongside posting a rather startling amount of air - AND -2C didn't elaborate on whether the question he asked Russia satisfied him or not either - which I'd expect him to at least touch upon, given how it was one of his main fusses today regarding the Commie. XBOX's rather unsettling content would give Breaker a good reason to stick with that vote and not look all that bad. But in fact, Crappy Fighting Game Mechanic didn't even -touch- upon XBOX's reasonings even though his swap vote came -after- XBOX had been replaced and started posting. This just looks very lazy and scummy to me.

While I'm not terribly keen on Soviet Russia's generally baffling play throughout, the way C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER seems to be skating on by trying to roll off the discussion and hoping to get away with the laziness of his rhetoric and choices sets me off something fierce. And even in the light of XBOX, Soviet Russia and Rick Astley's just general non-existence (and amazingly weak case on Slingshot Girls), I think I don't want to just lay this off:

##VOTE: C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER

Tangentially, I also have to agree with Soviet Russia and say that the whole WIFOMing over Cakeless and Slingshot Cupgirls in light of role madnessing is rather stupid, and so not very worth a vote, particularly at this juncture (and their catfighting over each other honestly kinda feels like a minor case of OMGUS). I hope this doesn't come off as amazingly tunnely against Crappy Fighting Game Mechanic, but I think we have something here.

[Tron Bonne]

And ninja'd by Advice Dog, who also managed to summarized my line of thought. Oh well. =/ I need to go to bed right now, since I'll have a busy day tomorrow. Still alive, though.

[Helga Pataki]

Ahaha, attempting to sleep with a fever is a no go. Figures. So back for a moment. Currently looking through Advice Dog's argument, and...

I'm not sure I'm seeing it, even with that laid out in front of me. My own breakdown on Combo would be: p3 prodding O9K for clarification, voting Dawg pretty much as followup vote, P4 made the observation on Soviet Russia that the no lynch vote really didn't stir discussion (which has factored into my own Russia issues heavily, so this is in his favor), but also started getting into the Yo Dawg trainthing more even with a swap off him. Uh, kay. Mmm, not agreeing with CCCC on reporter style Dawg either, but. P5, defense of himself from Dog Pack, generic comment on !cake's unwillingness to put soviet at L-1 which is about the last thing I found objectionable there. P6, continues to distance himself from the Yodawg case some, does a bit of poke/mudslinging (arguable which) which I responded to back then.

P8, says O9K was second on his suspicion list, which is kinda weird since he spent much more time on Yodawg/Soviet relatively, and at one point just said he considered O9K as confused town. Odd, yes.

...yeah, finished reread, definitely not seeing the case so clearly here. Somewhat off, but not terribly so, all things considered? I guess the main things I'd call him out on is the page 6 poke accusing me of vaguely voting/asking questions of Red Like Sirens when that wasn't the case, and the switch from "confused townie" day 1 to "#2 on list" beginning of day 2, almost... a distancing tactic in the opposite direction? I don't know. It reads off but I'm not sure it reads scum.

(NINJA INSERTION VIA SECOND ADOGGIE AND MINAMIAM: mmm. Okay, guess what? I'm dealing with those two posts later, will need to see if Milhouse's argument water holds and since I was the one pushing at XBox upon his resurrection from Dreamcast status I'm not sure how objective I can be there right now. So, note to look those two posts over for self.)

Shiki/Shana/FIREFIREFIRE: Breakdown, same format as Combo.

P3: Annoyance at Cake, votes/unvotes; votes instead for AYB for a somewhat questionable post. Replies to AYB, exhibits Soviet Shock Syndrome. P4, moves to O9K, uses the anti-lurker prod argument that we're also seeing day 2 from ADoggie -> CCCCCCCCCC, then moves to !cake after finding his reasoning for not voting Soviet questionable (which, as with CCCCCCCCC, I'm not sure I agree with; that was probably the sanest part of his post there). P6, backs off on Cake, claims it was more a gut vote, moves back to O9K since the recent posts did not impress, claims confusion at Soviets. P7, calls !cake out for hypocrisy, votes Demotivation... off logic I'm not fond of, but it seems more an honest miss? IOW I can see where the logic comes from but it does seem the other half wasn't spotted (that the flip was a null tell more than anything else). P8, swaps to Russia, states issue with Russia logic, not entirely sure I follow the jump here either. Might be fever kicking in hard, but.

Reads neutral in the end, logic issues and feels a bit light but isn't overwhelmingly bad? Geh. Regardless, here's these two. Want to reread Soviet's D2 stuff when I wake up, too, but for now, the glorious feverslumber calls.

[Chad Hutchins]

Да, comrades, I characterized Astley's case as being on 2girls' claim because... to be honest I couldn't tell what his case actually was, but rest of town buzzing about claim of glorious dual mail order bride offer so I figure I fail at deciphering Navajo crazy posts and Astley case seem to at least be related in some way.

[Princess Leia]

This may be a very silly argument, I may be missing something really obvious, but hey, I'm already looking stupid at this point.

If we assume a genuine roleblocker, and we treat a genuine roleblock claim as clearing the claimant, doesn't one of the best N1 scum uses become targeting one of their own? (Reasoning: on N1, everyone's shooting in the dark, but the roleblocker doubly so - even if you do hit doc or cop, the odds that they were pointed somewhere effective are small. Of course, preventing even a random cop investigation is nothing to sniff at, but still)

[Tanaka]

Wowowowowow...Endless WOT'S, my brain really feels like it is about to melt after reading all that anyways on to the post.

So anyways, there seems to be alot of speculation on the nature of the roleblock claim, which is just needless stupid indulgence in WIFOM for now.

There seems to be a bit of a case on Astley which I'm honestly not seeing at all myself, though I don't really agree with him on his case on the Cup Girls.

Anyways, both the breaker of combos and the xbox look terrible to me right now, both cases have been covered rather extensively and I both too lazy and not feeling a need to further bog this game down with more WoT's reiterating the same thing that I've already been beaten to.

I'm no longer sure what I think on the Russian, don't agree with their case on Astley at all, but they generally seem to be trying harder to contribute today.  I starting to think that the bad day one play is being used as an excuse for an easy train however, and since both the large box and breaker of combos are on that train, makes me think a little better of them for now.

So right now both of those two look incredibly bad, but to me the combo breaker looks worse.

##V-V-V-Vote: C-C-C-Combo Breaker!

Not going to bring up the points since Advice Dog pretty much summed them up and once again I don't feel like rehashing the same arguments.

[Alice Margatroid]

Man, Parsee never wants t'do anythin' fun...at least I got a drink outta all that.

Lookin' over what's gone on...I gotta say, Advice Dog does a great job showin' everythin' about Combo Crusha that's scummy. That hop off the box really is bad, worse than I said/thought it was at first glance. The box's last post looks like he might just be new/stupid town, too...

I still REALLY don't like the box, but in terms of actual scumminess from actions, with the repeated misrep and the suspect Box-to-Ruskie swing, I think I have to switch. ##Unvote: ##Vote: C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER

[Li Syaoran]

After spending some time in France, Fyodor Dostoevskii finally returned to his home country, Russia. Walking into St.Petersburg after being away from Russia for so many years, he noticed that, while it was the same city, so many things had changed, that it seemed a lot like Paris, from where he had just recently left. In his growing despair, he set his baggage down on the ground, and prayed to the Holy Mother to give him a sign that he was back in his beloved Russia. Nothing happened! Distraught, he reached down to pick up his baggage and walk on -- only to realise that someone stole it while he wasn't paying attention to it. He looks up to the sky, and loudly proclaims Спасибо, Боже!, realising that at long last, he truly was finally at home.

My opinion of Soviet Russia reads a lot like the above anecdote. Basically, just nothing adds up about him: on D1 his play was awful, but his O9K case was reasonable, and his Milhouse case, while invalid, seems totally off-the-wall for a scum to be doing at that time on D1. D2 - while there is some elements of weirdass playstyle, it's not as objectionable as a lot of people seem to be seeing. His case on Astley was made for sketchy reasons, but at the same time Astley IS being scummy, as noted by Advice Dog et al. Disagree that lurking is scummiEST behaviour, yet at the same time, pressuring lurkers early-on in the day is actually quite valid. Importantly, there is very little that makes sense motivationally from a scum standpoint, and Russia also fails the idiot test - he seems to display a good understanding of proper mafia playstyle the entire time, except half the time he's playing well according to it, and the other half of the time he's hitting every single "DON'T EVER DO THIS" entry on the "how to play mafia terribly" list. Incidentally, his content has shifted more to the first option than the second now that D2 has began (and yes, there is no issue with dropping D1 cases once D2 has begun and we have more information + flips. I'm not seeing the issue with this standpoint, Zerg Rush).

The sheer number of easy voteswitches to him is also both disconcerting and exasperating. C-C-C-C looks especially bad for this, 2g1c at least has an excuse, and while XBox's vote for him isn't an easy switch, his reasoning for his vote ignores all the actually scummy things that Russia has done and instead votes him for something that's an absolutely fucking stupid reason, instead.

tl;dr of summary: a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. Some very scummy stuff there. Some quite townie stuff there. imho, definetly not a good lynch candidate for today.

[Zerg Rush]

KEKEKEKEKEKEKE!

I think perhaps the problem might be stemming from a contradictory use of words. I am thinking of lurker in terms of someone who is particularly avoiding posting instead of someone who is posting, but managing to avoid content of note. The former is not at all useful to town, but isn't consistently a tell except in certain circumstances, while the other is pure, textbook scum play. They sometimes sorta overlap (minimalized posting + no content). So, its possible I've been talking past you.

Since its your big case of the day, though Soviet, could you do me a favor and do the cliff's note version of your Astley argument for me? It would be appreciated as well.

For the time being, though, this is good enough for me to move on. I still don't like a lot of what Soviet has been doing (and none of it really adds up), but sticking to this like a rabid pack of zerglings isn't really going to help make progress on the day.

##Unvote: Soviet

KEKEKEKEKEKEKE!

Thanks Advice Dog.

Yeah, you do well to highlight some distressing play elements. The XBox vote today... really looks bad. Like, "I'm willing to start considering XBox/-2C silly scum team" bad. Exact same lurker over scummy folks issue I had problems with Soviet for (except even more pronounced, since XBox was a true, non-presence lurker) as well. Its good enough to earn a ##Vote: C-C-C-C-Combo Breaker

I certainly would like to hear the promised more!

[Margaret Houlihan]

Skimming over walls of text to get a general feel for them. A lot of it is rehashing, so apologies if I miss something specific in the midst of a repeated case.

I'm somewhat amazed that 2g1c can't see the case on -2C. The weak vote switching is by far the worst thing to me, and am happy to see him go today based on that alone, to be honest. That said, 2g1c have been mostly solid to me so far, so it says nothing for now. Cause for concern if -2C flips scum, maybe?

Russia... Gah. Terribad D1, weak logic for the first half of D2... And still manages better than -2C. Alright, I'll bite.

##Unvote, Vote: C-C-C-Combo Breaker!

L-2, and that pushes him two ahead of Soviet as well. Hopefully that'll do for today.

I really need to take a re-read of things so as not to fall into the habit of just following the easy cases, but won't have time until after the deadline today. Will be around again an hour or two before deadline, but won't be able to go through everything.

[Chiaki]

So. From AYB's opinion on soviet, I get the following; he sees scummy- no, what he pretty much calls blindingly textbook scummy play, yet manages to also conclude he's half town and a bad lynch target for today. I want to point out that this makes zero sense, it's like going 'So, 4 halved is 2.... so if you add 2 and 2... you get FIVE!' It appears that AYB is either terribly confused, or has access to a realm of mathematics in which mere mortals such us have no understanding. I do not agree at all with his standpoint on 'his posts lack scummy motivations'; his earlier justifications for targeting lurkers did not match the proper LaL criteria (one scum lurker != many scum lurkers!) and there would be a clear incentive for scum there to prey on a maligned segment of town. Voting No Lynch early is a null tell (and often people taking crazy actions early day one get away with it, any savvy player has a reasonable expectation of extricating themselves.)

Echoes of this stance are in Zerg's post.

For the time being, though, this is good enough for me to move on. I still don't like a lot of what Soviet has been doing (and none of it really adds up), but sticking to this like a rabid pack of zerglings isn't really going to help make progress on the day.

What is this, if not finding a way to jump off a case by appealing to, I don't know, our sense of forward-thinking?

Annnnd the case on Combo. Yeah, after reading all this I don't like Combo much either. Most notably, his preference for clinging to XBoX over Soviet- and then switching to Soviet at a point where the man was well and truly the lynchtrainleader- has not done him any favours. I point this out specifically because it- much like the above two posters- has traits of wanting to avoid a particular lynch whilst saying what other people seem to be saying (i.e. supporting it, pretty much.)

I do not like this influx of what I can only see as excuses to not vote Soviet. Soviet's latest post is, in itself, okay... but it doesn't really clear my suspicions of him for the weird way he built hype towards LaL via lolcats or how it seemed to me he was pegging more on Astley than was really deserved. I plan to stick with his lynch and prefer it to Combos- frankly my second choice would be AYB at this point for all that internal back-and-forth. ("He's doing scummy things! But does that make him scummy? Man I don't know.") @_@

[Chiaki]

oh yeah

2g1c! Why'd you vote cake post-claim again? Do you still think he was lying about viging (a truly amazing conclusion to come to, might I add!)