A memes to an end(Meme Mafia: Game Over)

[Nathan Greaves]

Okay I was sleepy and forgot Demotivational had the jacket.

Anyway. I'm thinking there are still only 2 scum, and we're talking 'potential LYLO' as in 'assuming you mislynch, Cake sends another Townie a gift tonight and they accept out of derp, and scum hits someone else'. Since, well, I can't really kill anyone anymore, I think we can safely assume we still have one spare mislynch to go.

I missed something yesterday. What was going on with Shana and the votecount? Why was she still technically alive at L-0, exactly? She was Town, so would she have had a reason to lie about her role...?

I'm still thoroughly irritated at how easily Bel-Air gets away with doing practically nothing all day. The distancing from the Shana case is also pretty disgusting.

Shiki/Shana might not have the best case ever, but I'm entirely surprised out how seemingly everyone today is forgoing past behavior and voting mostly on today's behavior.

If I were to randomly turn on 2g1c and say HEY ISN'T IT A COINCIDENCE THAT YOU'RE STILL ALIVE, how long do you think I would last? Plus Shana had hardly been a shining beacon of activity in previous days, not to mention she was on the Russia wagon.

Not sure why we're so enthusiastic about lynching someone who made a case(albeit the rolename part of it is admittedly blech) about someone who isn't actually confirmed.

Besides that, uh, the case was based entirely on circumstancial role information and didn't take her actual content into account at all? Why does Touhou have to be confirmed in order for a case against her to be bad? You just sound like you're trying too hard to come up with an excuse to stay away from the Shana case, here.

##Vote: Bel-Air

Need to re-read Xbox, but really Bel-Air's been getting by for waaaaaay too long on horrible content.

[Helga Pataki]

I am not here for long. Slight annoyance at Touhou getting yet another unverifable (hi, no night action reporting for duty), but what's done is done and their role's gone anyway and so yeah okay. Also agree with Cake, that it's potential LYLO makes me fairly convinced it's two scum, but uh could I convince you to drop the vote just in case there's durp the durp vote antics? I'm not opposing Bel Air just yet, mind, and now that I'm feeling not-sick I plan on actually, you know, being fucking -constructive- and -breaking cases down- instead of waffly baby cups I've been the past three days which knowing my luck won't actually help any, but ya know. Bel-Air is high up on my list of "right", as is Astley at this point for the sudden push on AYB for what seems like an honest mistake (now, had Touhou claimed watching CAKE... but...)

Also, it's partially LYLO due to my role, which I will continue to tapdance around so I can ensure it stays partially LYLO and not actually LYLO because it has no chance of aiding town at this point thank you very much dah dah dah dah. But yes, due to me and !cake it is potential LYLO, I strongly suspect.

!cake: Presuming Bel-Air is scum means Touhou is scum (Night 3 antics, Touhou claims Bel-Air watch and clear), barring very weird Bel-Air role shenanigans (Bel-Air being untrackable or something silly). I suppose what I'm asking is, do you believe Touhou is scum enough to be willing to commit to Bel-Air? I don't deny he's... uh... incredibly, incredibly low on things like content and towniness. But Bel-Air scum kinda sets Bel-Air/Touhou, barring role shenanigans as stated earlier.

[Helga Pataki]

Mmmn, check that, kinda see where the Astley jump on AYB comes from, but it more makes AYB more scummy than Astley less so in my eyes (Astley being all gung-ho for a AYB lynch is not reassuring me at all, even if he might be right).

Will get to cases starting tomorrow, early day so I need to rest up.

[Nathan Greaves]

!cake: Presuming Bel-Air is scum means Touhou is scum (Night 3 antics, Touhou claims Bel-Air watch and clear), barring very weird Bel-Air role shenanigans (Bel-Air being untrackable or something silly). I suppose what I'm asking is, do you believe Touhou is scum enough to be willing to commit to Bel-Air? I don't deny he's... uh... incredibly, incredibly low on things like content and towniness. But Bel-Air scum kinda sets Bel-Air/Touhou, barring role shenanigans as stated earlier.

The Touhou track muddies the waters immensely, but the way Bel-Air just snuck by all game on absolutely nothing feels really bad regardless. We've already seen that scum has a roleblocker/rolecop, and almost definitely a hijacker, so the concept of a GF isn't out of bounds. Note also the hijacker stopped Touhou from tracking Xbox, and that a cleared Xbox would make Bel-Air look really bad.

Or perhaps I'm overthinking it and they just didn't want people to see Xbox. Bah. Really need to get around to the reread but I'm tired as hell. ##Unvote for now, will return to this tomorrow after an Xbox reread.

[Li Syaoran]

Bleh. Similarly, will get around to cases tomorrow. Exhausted, again. Whee.

[Alice Margatroid]

No new theories, sadly, as I am still waiting on the box and Mr. Astley. I will turn in for the night here and hope to have something specific to address/researtch tomorrow.

Cake, Shana surviving L-0 was part of her role. Citation can be found here. On the subject of Bel Air and possible role and/or mod information contamination, I was specifically told Bel Air did nothing. I was not told that my role refused to power up, or that Bel Air was afk or anything else that would otherwise seem to indicate my machination failed. Given this and today being potential LYLO (hopefully this will put all three-scum-left theories to rest for good), as reprehensible as his actions have been, I firmly believe Bel Air to be town.

[Princess Leia]

Bah. Scummy actions from both those whom role says are prime suspects. AYB screws things a little, but honestly I think this could be him just not reading. Bad for town, yes. Conclusively scum? No. And Touhou comes up with another nothing.

As for Demo flipping Touhou's role, well... I think it's pretty safe to assume it was used on the kappa. However, I also believe it's safe to assume that scum despises that jacket existing.

That's what I was referring to last night; demote's result on Touhou would have given us a certain scum one way or another, meaning the scum pretty much had to kill or at least redirect him, whichever way the scum goes.

why anyone would have expected me to track Cake over one of our remaining suspects

Defending Astley who possibly should be defending himself, but it was my idea: no-one would expect you to intentionally do so, but there's a busdriver out there.

Now, I make a perfectly sensible tracking target for the Hijack, but by no means the only one; at the least, Rick and AYB were perfectly good candidates too. So the odds of the Hijack just happening to hit the person the busdriver chose to swap with 2g1c (and if Touhou's town, we are looking at a busdriver) are poor. (Also, note that at this stage the leather jacket can no longer tell us anything - if we leave touhou alive we lynch AYB, and at that point everyone left has their role already mostly-known, excepting mine which comes from Soviet so tells you nothing about me. We have no idea what the last scum role must be. So there is no value in leaving touhou alive for the sake of future results.) Coupled with bel-air being hands-down the scummiest remaining player and scum bel-air implies scum touhou...yes. ##Vote: TOUHOU HIJACK LOL. I take the girls' point, but worrying about putting someone at (count 'em) L-3 seems premature (the girls, incidentally, still seem pretty suspicious, but I haven't bothered to think about them much since I think they're in the clear on rolestuff. Will think more, since now that I come to it, touhou hijacker/2g1c killer is entirely possible, even without invoking things like untrackable. Not to mention the girls' role wtfery grates).

Touhou wants more opinion from me. Which is fair enough, but I'm not going to abandon logic at this stage, which means there are really only three players on my radar at the moment - and I only care about Bel-Air in so far as what he implies about Touhou. My opinions are pretty much what they were yesterday; bel-air is scummier than scum, AyB is netural on his content's, uh, content (leaning to scummy with the premature statement today, but only slightly) and lower on it than Rick or Touhou. Rick I see nothing from that makes me think scum. Yes, his leaping at AyB earlier was wrong, but I can understand his frustration; when I first read that post I wanted to lynch him immediately. In case that isn't firm enough for anyone: I think rick is town.

Touhou, hmm. My impression of their content remains outright good. That said, they did make and then retract that weird roletheory on day 3, and much as I love the consistent flavour, it does bulk up the posts. And for someone so insistent on opinions, the insistence on waiting to hear from everyone before giving their own seems slightly churlish. But these are minor niggles; going by post content alone I would still put Touhou as better than AyB. But this role result is one too many for my liking.

A question for those who know the flavour better than me: Does "Kappa Fanthing~" mean anything? Is it more likely to be a tracker vs a hijacker?

[Helga Pataki]

why anyone would have expected me to track Cake over one of our remaining suspects

Defending Astley who possibly should be defending himself, but it was my idea: no-one would expect you to intentionally do so, but there's a busdriver out there.

Perhaps this is me being nitpicky, but why does this read as you communicating with one of Astley or Touhou (heavily implies the latter)? And, actually, you know what, given how much this has come up before and how often you seem to make really weird phrasing issues I don't think I am being nitpicky anymore. This reads poorly and scummy, flat-out. If

A question for those who know the flavour better than me: Does "Kappa Fanthing~" mean anything? Is it more likely to be a tracker vs a hijacker?

I think it reads "Who the fuck knows this is role madness and role names don't seem to match up too much to abilities c.f. robotgirl and thus this isn't role theorycruft this is uselesscruft".

Currently suspecting Astley/Box primarily. Will begin providing arguments in about four-five hours time, currently in the middle of work.

[Helga Pataki]

EBWOP: Screw Internet Explorer, premature ejaculapost. If it was -your idea- that !cake should be tracked/you and I should be bussed/that whatever attack should be going on, regardless of whatever the idea was -implying communication outside the game that isn't the Mason pairing-...


Yeaaaaaaah. Okay, you know what? That just... no. No, no, no no no no no no no no no no. No. I let this sit too long. Sorry for being hypocritical, !cake, but I need to put my own money where my mouth is, consider my own commentary on you rescinded because, well, yeah.

##VOTE: HUEG LIEK XBOX

[Alice Margatroid]

Hazelarice, the box did make a public call to have Cake target someone. Citation here, and I believe there was a post of his even before that discussing the idea, though it was less direct than the one linked. As long as I am on the subject, however, my issue with Mr. Astley is not founded in who suggested Cake target someone, but in the idea that I was somehow supposed to target Cake to the point that CATS jumping in and complaining completely sold Mr. Astley on the CATS case. I saw the suggestion and dismissed the idea almost immediately: I had already decided I was going to track people I was suspicious of (and stated this publicly when I announced my Bel Air results), and Cake was not such a person. It seems like such a trifling thing to get that worked up about (though the same could be said of CATS' reaction to being targeted in the first place).

On to the Box's post. The girls are not suspicious, they are role cleared barring bizarre bastard mod machinations. Demote has claimed the presence of a redirectional role and also claimed to see the girls doing nothing Night 3. Even if you do not 100% believe Cake or myself, Demote has now flipped town, so we may assume he was telling the truth. In order for the girls to be scum, that would require three scum remaining, with the other two killing and redirecting as necessary, and given today is potential LYLO instead of full-fledged LYLO, that theory has been basically debunked. For someone so insistent on discussing facts and roles, I find it very strange that you wouldn't notice this yourself.

I made a call to hear from others because I've already written my dissertation about both yourself and Mr. Astley. You can find it scattered throughout the game. I would love to talk more about the two of you, but everything you had presented up to my latest post I had already discussed.

I am having a hard time reading the poke at my flavor as little more than reaching for a reason to discredit me.

The vote for me is not something I can really address, as it is founded in role speculation, which has been discussed already as a scumhunting tactic, and opinions of Bel Air, which, despite the implications of Bel Air being scum, I cannot honestly fault the Box (or anyone else) for holding, since if I didn't have my tracker result on Bel Air I would similarly be shouting for his head. I cannot and will not offer a defense for Bel Air's actions beyond my tracker result.

Color me unimpressed on the whole by the Box's post. I could see myself voting for him today, as at this point I think his performance on the whole is enough to override my misgivings regarding the Day 2 switch off of Russia. I would still like to hear from Mr. Astley first, however.

[Helga Pataki]

The Case on XBox, 2girls1cup style!

Day 1: Terribad lurking, crummy content when it did post. However, common day 1 complaint there, the inactivity is more problematic than the content... or it would be if the replacement wasn't forthcoming. On a side note, CCCCC poking myself/Astley but not XBox for low posting when I had posted not too far back in the thread before XBox did his one real D1 post (I posted end of P4, XBox near top of P5, CCCCC called me out but didn't comment on XBox page 6. Interesting, at least). Also just kept his joke vote on the O9k train, saying he considered it a serious vote. Regardless. Touhou breaks down why this post is useless flimflam to the extreme here.

Day 2: Replaced after another long period of inactivity! Woo. Anyways, the new XBox posts more, which, well, at least means we aren't dealing with lurkertude.

Oh, right. During this part, CCCCC puts "pressure" on XBox until he posts something "substanstive" which pretty much ended up being revealed to be completely forced, kudos to people for catching that better than I did who went "ehh"... interesting to note it was on XBox, tho. Not too sure what to make of that, gonna say null tell for now but it sure ain't anything positive.

And then the replacement tags in. Okay! Let's break this shit down! I'm not going to quote your HLXBOX posts, but I -will- link each one I feel I need to, and pretty much go paragraph by paragraph. So. If there's nothing to say, I'll just put a 0 down and move on with \\\, so just search for those in this.

Link - The Legend Of Zelda 0\\\ 0\\\ oh noes I tell people I'm gonna be gone clearly common courtesy is scummy! Really, you've harped on that being suspicious a few different times, and it just looks bad on your end. I like to inform people when I'll be back. I consider it respectful. Apologies that you don't like it. I kindly suggest you get over it. The low presence D1 my end is correct, however (pot&kettle living together in perfect harmony).\\\ ...Okay, I confess I glazed over like half your wall of texts for a while. I clearly, really shouldn't have, and have only incompetence and illness to blame. You're trying to provoke him into talking about town role powers...? Yeah, no, that seems very very bad.\\\ OH NOES TOUHOU IS BEING REASONABLE THIS MAKES ME SUSPICIOUS! So glad others called you on that, this was headdesk worthy. Holy christ. Actually, you're accusing them here of being suspicious because they can direct discussion because they're reasonable... and their vote had been on you at the time. Wow. ADoggie hadn't. You call him less suspicious. Okay! Wow. I missed this. Clearly just a bit colored, eh?\\\ Talking of percentages and vague quantifications that are pretty much pointless there anyway.\\\ Came down on CCCCC's side in the CCCCC/Dawg's argument! Problem: Dawg was already dead and CCCCC was scum. Right. I correct him, he tries to tell me that I should be able to explain -why- scum chose to roleblock/cop me N1. Right.

A side note: ADoggie deconstructs XBox's attack on Touhou and the vote on Soviet/about lolcat&Soviet.

Zelda II - The Adventures Of Link NNnnnnnnnooooo that's distinctly not what you're said that's pretty blatant backpedaling. Yeah, sure. You preface it with "positives". But you are very much unapologetic in painting Touhou there in a very, very fearful light.\\\ ...if someone is saying they neither confirm nor deny X then... how does that change anything? Oh, and what's fun here? You knew the role it had at the time - your previous owner swapped with it N1! So you know he couldn't have been the secondary killer, that's not what the role you got did! And then you pressure to lynch him, who we now know is town. Interesting. But we'll put that too aside for now.\\\ ******You're pushing for a Commie lynch in part due to info (read: he has your old role) despite the case on -me- being the best one you see. What I read from this? You want the person that had your old role -dead-. And when you failed to lynch him D2, you had him roleblocked, and then just NK'd him... but not before the pesky jackets got away. Why the jackets, I don't know, maybe you feared that getting scum roles was way too dangerous, but this reads way too bloody fishy. You wanted Commie -dead dead dead-, this is pretty much painfully obvious by the fact that you really don't seem to be interested in moving to me, who you even consider scummier by your own commentary.******

This cinches your scumminess to me, idly. But I'll keep going.

Later in the day (page 10 for reference) you posit that scum would want to -roleblock their own person-. Yeah, no. Firstly, WIFOM, but even ignoring WIFOM it's silly and kinda stupid. Why deny scum the use of all whatever roles they have in a role madness game? Yeah, not buying it even as a potential theoretical and that you're trying to smear mud on me indirectly by implying that's what happened... yeah no. Switched -off- Soviet Russia on page 11 and onto me- wait, no, onto... Demotivational? Ahahah. So wait, even though I felt like the strongest case, someone you barely commented on beforehand suddenly surged forward there after Russia seemed to falter and CCCCC seemed to be surrendering, -and- you avoided the CCCCC lynch lineup (that dissolved due to Milhoussandra)? Haaaah.


##UNVOTE: HUEG LIEK XBOX

"WAIT WHAT?!"

I want people to -fucking comment- on this case. Tell me where I'm stupid. Tell me where I'm being outright denser than the XBox's own gravitational pull (this is entirely a reference to your huegness, dude. Not meant as a personal insult). I -do not want- people to just go "oh okay", vote him, we get a scum lynch and day ends. No. I want not only conversation so that I can be sure on this, but I want to finish not only this case but a few other cases. I personally believe Day 2 is the lynchpin - we track down who was aiming for Soviet Russia hardcore, we may yet have this.

Finally, unless someone can outright convince me that XBox is town beyond a shadow of a freakin' doubt, honest to Gomorrah and there's absolutely no flaw in the logic because at this point I don't think I could buy -any- roleclaim produced, I want XBox down today. I am convinced of him being scum right now. But this is why I want people to comment. I am flawed, I need people to look shit over because I'm hardly consistent. I do my best under pressure, sadly, and hopefully this makes up for a long time of mediocrity. I'll get to D3/4 stuff next post, and then move on to the next player.


EDIT: Touhouninja! Hi! Please read and comment you beautiful Nitori you AUGH DAMNIT STAY STILL FOR MY CAMERA JAMIE DOESN'T MOVE AS FAST AS AYA DOES DAMNIT!

[Helga Pataki]

Day 3:

A Link To The Past 0/// Commentary on Roll's rant. Unsure what to make of this here, will piece this together later, but for now /// Uhhh, more attempting to figure out how to get me looking bad for a lynch down the line? Okay. Since that's talking about the roleblocker and ADoggie's commentary on what the roleblocker could have/been doing/why I wasn't quite clear at the time, I'm taking it as that right now. /// Sure, iffy time for the vote, and sure, me admitting it doesn't help. I admit things because they amuse me, if you haven't noticed yet. This being said it was terribad logic day 2 when I called you out on it. /// 0. Accurate enough telling off of Demotive IIRC, should go back and check the post but. ///

Skimming the rest of day 3, there's a lot of posts and not much of relevance and I've got to run but day 4 is where it gets interesting again - just to quote part of their defense against Bel-Air's attack (which is somewhat sketchy itself but not totally bad),

Leaving aside the question of whether scum would even want to block the leather jacket, if I were scum they would already have known what the leather jacket did, which surely makes it rather a waste of their combination rolecop/roleblocker, no?

Except scum blocked the jacket quite willingly N2, remember? Before the roleclaim? You know, blocking the person that admitted that he was aiming at CCCCC with the role afterward? So they clearly knew -what- it was and knew it was dangerous enough to block it, non? And how would they know what the role was and what it could do and why they should be afraid of what it could do to an exposed scum unless... unless... Oh, I don't know. We're just two ditzy gurrrrlz here, help us fill in the gaps! That night action -surely- wasn't foretelling at all! Nope. Oh, wait.

I'll get to dissecting D4 when I return, but that deflection makes things look even worse.

[Alice Margatroid]

I've studied your theory, Hazel, and jotted down a few notes as I read.

I disagree with trivializing the box's lacking Day 1 content simply because it was Day 1. It is perfectly possible to present even just a decent amount of opinions on Day 1. The box's Day 1 opinions were scarce and unexplained. Even on Day 1, this is not acceptable.

I discussed the nature of the Breaker using the box for his vote switch launchpad in my opening statements on Day 3. I believe it to be a null tell and not worth mentioning in an argument against him.

Your breakdown of his first Day 2 post is mostly accurate. The most I would say about this is that I wonder if you might be overblowing it a tiny bit because you feel slighted by his poking at your promises of later content. Not that I disagree with finding that poke bad, of course.

The point about the box knowing that Russia could not have been the extra killer is an interesting one, and I'll admit I missed that before. It does make me wonder why the box would make such a big deal out of that Russian statement. The rest of your paragraph...well, it would explain Russia getting roleblocked Night 2 quite neatly, but it's still more "this could be how the night actions went down" than anything else. I'm not in a position to begrudge anyone Theory Road, but I don't think it's a total case-maker, since "this is what happened" does not directly follow from "this might have happened", even with scum Box having good reason to want Russia RBed.

Choosing to switch to Demotivational over you is another neat catch, as I don't particularly see that thought process telegraphed in his posts. I would definitely like to hear the box's rebuttal for this.

On the whole, while there are a couple of small issues I have with some of your supporting arguments, I must say your thesis is quite impressive, and picked up on a couple of things about the box that I missed. I think I am actually prepared to vote for the box over Mr. Astley after seeing those extra points, though, again, this could change depending on what Mr. Astley brings to the table when he returns.

[Helga Pataki]

A quick response as I continue my work on his day 4 posts.

It wasn't my intent to trivialize the day 1, else I wouldn't have presented it. In retrospect, however, it sounds as if I did as such; my bad!

The promises of later content may indeed be a slightly sore spot with me, but at the same time that is not what he presses, at a note. He presses the fact that I mention I'll be around at a later time x or so, which is a different ball game (soccer!).

There is much theorycruft in that section, I do not deny. But it seems that the shutdown of Soviet was a top priority - which is interesting, considering that they were a high lynch priority earlier. Roleblocking them and thus giving them that claim ability? Risky, to me, and feels like something that really would've been done to ensure that they couldn't manage the switch somehow. 

IOW, why roleblock them if they were likely to be untrusted by town anyway? Unless they feared the role he had. How would they know the role he had? The original owner had to have been scum. It's not the only piece of logic leading to scumbox. But it's another one. And yes, it's theorycruft, and yes, I'm repeating myself. But... I wanted just to ensure clarity here. I -do not see how this makes sense any other way-. While Soviet could have been nightkilled, the fact remains that either a NK or a roleblock to neuter his ability was necessary from the scum viewpoint, most likely. I can't say why they didn't NK night 2 instead. Perhaps they thought Zerg Rush a bigger threat somehow. Regardless, they saw fit to neutralize Soviet N2. Which leads into them knowing his role and thinking it important enough to stop the jacketswap, which only makes sense via XBox.

Back to the D4 postwhirl. I shall return either in thirty minutes or so or a few hours, depending on how soon I finish.

[Princess Leia]

Perhaps this is me being nitpicky, but why does this read as you communicating with one of Astley or Touhou (heavily implies the latter)?

Because as Touhou says, I have been "communicating with Astley", by posting in this thread.

I had already decided I was going to track people I was suspicious of (and stated this publicly when I announced my Bel Air results)

This was your public position, but had you decided to track cake for the sake of clearing yourself to town (which frankly would have been of more benefit to town, it would've given us one confirmed scum (AyB) wheras you only had a 1/3 chance by going for someone suspicious), you would hardly have announced the fact and told the busdriver who to target.

On to the Box's post. The girls are not suspicious, they are role cleared barring bizarre bastard mod machinations. Demote has claimed the presence of a redirectional role and also claimed to see the girls doing nothing Night 3. Even if you do not 100% believe Cake or myself, Demote has now flipped town, so we may assume he was telling the truth. In order for the girls to be scum, that would require three scum remaining, with the other two killing and redirecting as necessary, and given today is potential LYLO instead of full-fledged LYLO, that theory has been basically debunked. For someone so insistent on discussing facts and roles, I find it very strange that you wouldn't notice this yourself.

You're correct, of course. But it takes time to think the roles through; I had done so in the past and correctly come to that conclusion, and as soon as I gave the girls the extra thought I said they needed I realised it again. Given that you had just asked me to post opinions and not logic or rolespeculation, I think it's a bit much for you to attack me for doing just that.

I am having a hard time reading the poke at my flavor as little more than reaching for a reason to discredit me.

It is. I search for every possible reason however small, and then conclude that everything I've found really is small and I still think your posts are better than those of AyB.

oh noes I tell people I'm gonna be gone clearly common courtesy is scummy! Really, you've harped on that being suspicious a few different times, and it just looks bad on your end.

It felt (rightly or wrongly) that every post was ending in "will be gone for a while, post more later". Which just strings us out and helps defer attention from your lack of content - there's always some just around the corner. Telling us you'll be gone for a while doesn't actually help us any.

if someone is saying they neither confirm nor deny X then... how does that change anything?

It does nothing except raise the noise and the confusion. Which is why it's scummy.

You're pushing for a Commie lynch in part due to info

I didn't do it due to info, I did it because I thought he was scum.

this is pretty much painfully obvious by the fact that you really don't seem to be interested in moving to me, who you even consider scummier by your own commentary.

Your roleclaim made you not worth lynching on that day. Following logic above whom I feel is most scummy is hardly something I've been inconsistent about.

Later in the day (page 10 for reference) you posit that scum would want to -roleblock their own person-. Yeah, no. Firstly, WIFOM, but even ignoring WIFOM it's silly and kinda stupid. Why deny scum the use of all whatever roles they have in a role madness game?

Maybe they had a scum with no roles, or pretty useless roles. I can see cases where it would be a valid strategy for N1. Of course it's WIFOM, the point is because it's WIFOM we shouldn't automatically clear someone because they claim to have been roleblocked on night 1.

So wait, even though I felt like the strongest case, someone you barely commented on beforehand suddenly surged forward there

Yes. You were the strongest of a weak lineup, I had only just started, and then Demotivate did the voteshift and I finally had something concrete to go on. And then as soon as I wondered whether I'd overreacted, he confirmed it by shifting his vote again. I felt more happier with my vote there than I had all day, and make no apology for that.

Except scum blocked the jacket quite willingly N2, remember? Before the roleclaim? You know, blocking the person that admitted that he was aiming at CCCCC with the role afterward?

Yes, they blocked the jacket, when the scum didn't know what the jacket was, because much as you might like to think otherwise, I am town.

So they clearly knew -what- it was and knew it was dangerous enough to block it, non?

Oh yeah, because there's no way the scum would ever want to use their rolecop on someone who's role they didn't know. That'd be completely crazy.
Not to mention that if scum had the jacket and were as scared as you seem to think of having it in town hands, the way to do that would've been to nightkill whoever they gave the jacket to on night 1.

Ninja, pretty much the same argument again. Have you somehow just forgotten that C-C-C-C was a rolecop?

Regardless, they saw fit to neutralize Soviet N2. Which leads into them knowing his role and thinking it important enough to stop the jacketswap

.
No it doesn't, because as we saw it did nothing to stop the jacket getting out. If that'd been what they wanted they'd've roleblocked and nightkilled - or as I said above, simply nightkilled on night 1. The fact that they saw fit to NK soviet on N3 doesn't in any way mean they were scared of the jacket, because they didn't take it out of play, and they would have known this by N3 since they had the rolecop result.

[Princess Leia]

Two corrections; the probability of getting a useful result by targeting someone suspicious was better than 1/3, because there are still two scum out there. But the point stands. And "more happier" is obviously meant to be something that makes grammatical sense.

[Nathan Greaves]

Alright. Xbox re-read. Trying my best not to make it hueg.

Day 1 - Defends Combo in his sole content post of the day, and he has no concrete cases on anyone. Maybe Soviet is a jester, maybe he's a noob, maybe he's scum - congrats, you've just proven absolutely NOTHING.

Day 2 - Replacement's first post says 'Touhou is insightful and making sense, therefore she might be scum leading us'. Uhh...paranoia much?
Talks about the lurkers, and conveniently doesn't mention Bel-Air within them.
His accusation of 2g1c for 'You haven't done anything to deserve being roleblocked' is facepalm inducing. Seriously, what the hell?
He then says that despite thinking 2g1c is scummier he wants to lynch Soviet for information. Sorry, the hell is this?

I didn't do it due to info, I did it because I thought he was scum.

Then what is this, exactly?
The Demotivational shift near the end of D2 is really the only thing that makes me a little uncertain. It still seems so random, so pointless, so anti-scum.

Day 3 - Still no mention of Bel-Air anywhere here until he masonclaims. Admittedly D3 is the day where we obvlynched Combo, but the fact he mentions Rick, Base and Shana and conveniently leaves the Fresh Prince out again for so long worries me.

Day 4 - I still really don't like the case that because Touhou claimed last she's scummy. True, her claim is the least useful, but her actual content thus far has been pretty high-quality.
The 'Maybe the busdriver is Town!' argument is pointless pointless pointless GAH WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS.
And the fact I can see more role speculation in your posts than actual hunting is also sort of infuriating.

Day 5 - Goes ahead with the 'Touhou hasn't done anything particularly bad BUT HER ROLE SEEMS TOO CONVENIENT SHE MUST BE SCUM' case. Which is, in short, still as stupid an idea as it was when Shana did it.

I've been holding that D2 switch to Demotivational as the one thing that made Xbox look more like stupid Townie than scum. But really, pressing this hard on Touhou just takes the goddamn cake (pun unintentional). I still think his convenient failure to mention Bel-Air for two and a half days is worth sniffing at a little as well, but honestly I gave him too much credit considering all he did was move from one townie to another townie.

##Vote: Hueg Liek Xbox

[Bill Hellsnake]

Woah. What the hell? Before I get to anything else, let me just say this: Box, if scum is frightened of the jacket, then all they want is to keep it from being effective for town. Scum will always want to make the most of their roles. Hyper-focusing them onto one person doesn't help them, much. Now, had you said that they could have killed whoever you sent it to N1 more than "They could have roleblocked and killed" then, uhh... I would have been more likely to believe that you were innocent, as opposed to not aware that plenty of townies don't seem to have terribly useful roles, or somesuch. I dunno. There was something else, mind left me. Sorry if that doesn't make much sense. I have, however, thought of another notion. Give me a sec to travel down Theory Lane.

Night 1, scum gives Town the jacket, goes on with the rest of their roles. N2, they roleblock it, hoping to draw more information out of town. From there, they use the jacket to target whoever has it, hoping to kill power roles as the jacket-holder grabs for power themselves. (Or, y'know, tries to verify someone's role by grabbing it) I'm... not too certain which theory I find more likely, but I'm leaning towards the second one, as if scum is still scared of the jacket (which they probably should, since aside from ScumBox, for all we know their role sounds kinda scummy. Which reminds me of another reason why Shana was wrong about "one role being theme-related is suspicious": Breaker had a role that sounded like his name) then worst case scenario is that they get rid of it.

I dunno. Going around in mental circles there. Haven't really had much time for the game here lately, sorry guys.

What is your case on me right now, Touhou? Short and sweet, please. I need to go do something, but I'll be back soon and will have at least enough time to cover your case on me.

Also gonna question about why both AYB and Box are the only ones we have no clues about their roles, but I don't really wanna rolefish here, so I'll leave it alone for now. Just thought I'd get it out there.

Oh, and X-Box. Please don't quote bit-by-bit. All it does is make you a hypocrite, as you only use up more space, making yourself look like you're talking more than you are. (noise and confusion, anyone?)

[Li Syaoran]

First off, everyone who thinks that my opening post is so scummy because of me yelling at Cake about the "gift": if I'm scum and Touhou's town, then there is no point for Touhou to lie about his role or his results, and if we're both scum then I could just have, y'know, told him about the gift in private during the night phase because y'know, scum can do that. Any scenario where me claiming this is somehow useful for perpetuating a scum-Touhou's fakeclaim has me as town. Which means I should not be lynched for that post. Think a little, seriously. Argh.

Secondly, !Cake, assuming two scum (which makes sense as today is only "Potential" LYLO as opposed to merely LYLO), then BelAir-Scum => Touhou-Scum, and thus XBox/BelAir cannot be scumbuddies. What are you on?

Back in a bit, just got online, had tons of classes, presentations, colloquia and problems to work on today.

[Nathan Greaves]

Secondly, !Cake, assuming two scum (which makes sense as today is only "Potential" LYLO as opposed to merely LYLO), then BelAir-Scum => Touhou-Scum, and thus XBox/BelAir cannot be scumbuddies. What are you on?

Besides the possibility of being untrackable/Godfather? This is a role madness game, remember.

And as for this being unlikely - well, that's why I've shifted my vote over to Xbox.

[VySaika]

Bel Air:(0) - Cake
Touhou Hijack:(1) - XBOX
XBOX:(1) - 2girls1cup, Cake
RIck & Roll: (1) - O R'LYEH!?

With 7 memes still commenting, it takes 4 votes to ban them from the internet.

[Alice Margatroid]

The box seems to misunderstand my comment about his missing the girls being role cleared. I am not attacking you for posting opinions. I am questioning why you would hold an opinion (that a Touhou/2G1C scum team is "entirely possible") that can be shown to be impossible simply via looking at facts and role results, a play style you yourself had been dedicated to prior.

Mr. Astley, I will try to summarize as best I can.

* Day 1 lurking + uninspiring hop to Milhouse at the end of the day for reasons you apparently couldn't articulate (and still have not beyond claiming gut, near as I can tell; if you eventually did, please do link me, as I might have missed it)
* Trying to pass the blame to me for your Day 1 hammer vote (I'll admit this might be tinged with OMGUS, but I still think you could have easily explained/defended your decision without trying to drag me into it)
* Unsatisfactory reasoning for your vote for the girls, which you yourself later admitted and chalked up to a misread
* Trying to direct Cake's bonus kill (this looks a bit worse than normal night action direction in light of scum's redirecting power)
* Pushing the Russia train back in front of the Breaker train
* Doing this without even acknowledging the Breaker case
* Blatant mudslinging at Advice Dog in your numerical list

There is a "bullet hell" pun in there somewhere.

There is also the issue of your quick jump at CATS to open today, though I have done further musings on the subject myself and believe I can see where the girls are coming from in their revised assessment. Nevertheless, I wish to hear your reasoning first (for what should be obvious reasons) before casting judgment on your action there.

[Helga Pataki]

Day 4:

Link's Ocarina of Time. 0 /// Already commented on this line and what it triggered as a thought process in me. /// Role speculation, woohoo /// Mmm, yes, Rick kinda very vaguely first made the point, XBox then said it more clearly, and then I just kinda spelled it out (yes, I was third and kinda being mimic bird there). /// 0; comments on the Touhou obviousclaims /// 0; commentary on the three-scum theory which is currently pretty much debunked /// Tosses in - finally - a justification for that Demotivator vote, seemingly abandoning any thoughts of the claimed pressure on me. Okay.


Link's Mask of teh Majoraness. A bunch of whinging and setting up for potential Town Busdriver claim when the Bus Driver has A) had the potential to come out, explain their actions and their reasoning, and tried to aid in the lynching of scum, but instead has chosen to remain hidden and cause mischief, and B) been behind a lot of the mischief N2/3 anywho. In addition he derides people trying to clear based on roles when he's been running most the game based on role theory. Wait, what? Also a bunch of theorycruft on proper claim order that doesn't matter a whit because it didn't happen. /// More potentialcruft, from how it reads; discussion of game that didn't happen (what would have happened if x roles switched instead, as far as I can tell). /// 0. This part is mostly accurate, Combo Breaker wasn't really ever mentioned by XBox seriously. /// Commentary to me... I think I didn't answer this? It's pure theorycruft anyway and kinda pointless to answer regardless, and since I'm not content to play theorycruft -and- it's a basic logic step, eh. If you really need to know, outside of rolefusion that makes no sense, Soviet would have said if you had the swap role/Touhou/Demotive at the time/others could be cleared of swapper role easily just due to having an active role present. (I say it now because who the hell cares?) /// More vague pushings for dead Touhou as a good idea and that someone who sounds townie can't be trusted just like you thought and oh, wow. Man, I miss ABri- I mean ADoggie, he'd be chewing this like newspaper. I don't have the heart after a point, it's just not good play and it rings horribly scummy.

Skimming a bit from here, I love how I'm still tentatively cleared in this post despite being the only real possible target of CCCCCC and why the hell would scum use the ability on their own, again? Reaching, much? And again, this runs off the theorycruft you love. And yet despite wondering if Touhou is best off dead you rate him second best, just behind Astley... who you just say is posting similarly to you. Kay. List commentating, admitting again to voting not based on who's scummiest (last did this day 2, where he didn't vote on me but instead was on Russia) based on solid, if bad-motivation, theorycrufting (if Bel-Air's scum we get Touhou, too! ...is how it reads. No, if you really think Bel-Air's scum make the case, outline it very well (and be ready to argue that Touhou's either scum or Bel-Air's untrackable/godfather/whatthehellchristever, I stare into bastard moddery later if needed but not right now), don't do it because of what is effectively the info we get (Touhou's alignment), nevermind that Belair being town can't clear Touhou...)...


Link's Wind Waker More focusing on the night 2 and the swapper and what I can't help but feel more and more is an absolute distraction/waste of time/pointless exercise, let's actually hunt for scum people and stop farting around about what the mystical swiper stop swiping role can do. // Already addressed this earlier. Kinda still wary of it but whatevs, moving on. /// Commentary on Demotive's logic, this is actually semi-decent. /// Defense of his own comments from !cake (This is admittedly another part of what makes this hard to do, and this is a pot kettle black moment for myself; he quotes but the quote doesn't reference the post, so I can't figure out what he's quoting and need to search for it).

Skipping down to here, Link's Awakening GBC -... actually, wate, the section you quoted kinda proves my point - I said even I don't know if they have my role info or not there. So yours still kinda sounds like a slipup. I let it pass since I read it previously w/ fever and kinda went "o okeh"- but wow, no, I never said I thought they knew the details of my role, just the role as in rolename. Righty-o. Anyways, back to the rest of it... first paragraph is suggestion on how to test Shiki's role, okay whatever ultimately irrelevant, and then an attack on AyB before saying AyB's looking better... which AyB himself comments on here, for reference.


Link's Oracle of Seasons  The problem is your theorycruft/rolelogic has been mainly a whole lot of leading nowhere, and yet it has been an impetus for votes to be placed for most of the game, which is incredibly querulous; furthermore, it's created a lot of static and distracted discussion from hunting down scum in favor of trying to play the role game. In a role madness game. Doesn't work. Really, this comment applies to most that entire post, I don't really have much else to say to the XBox/AYB argument as I'm not convinced that AYB's innocent myself, but.

This is just a few posts further down and twists one of my own favorite maxims pretty painfully. Town benefits from information, oh yes. But town does not benefit from relentless theorycrufting. Unless it pins scum by itself, it is useless except as -secondary- to actual argument - and this is perhaps my biggest issue. You have barely presented your own arguments, your own dissections on why people might be scum or town or what have you other than vague concerns on x or y looks good or z looks bad but is cleared by role. Theorycruft has been front and center nearly constantly. Hell, rereading my own commentary, theorycruft is front and center in my responses. This is kinda not good. Also you say at the end that you want to start explicitly directing night actions. Uhhhh yeah that cheers me up regarding you a lot.


That pretty much wraps up the D4 stuff. I'm honestly a bit less certain. Not enough to move me still, barring a damn good argument, and I'll reply to your comments tomorrow, XBox. In short, though, saying you're town doesn't move our little hearts of stone and mudslides, and there seems to be a lot of backpedaling on cases in that. But I'll get to it later, and I'd like to make cases on a few more people just in case today/tonight do not go so well, so.

[Princess Leia]

Cake:

I still really don't like the case that because Touhou claimed last she's scummy.

Her claim was made last, meaning she can pick and choose how to make it fit in with everyone else's claims. She only maid the claim when she'd been seen targeting cake, and has given us no information from her role that wasn't already claimed. Yes, her content has been good, but that doesn't make it impossible for her to be scum.

The 'Maybe the busdriver is Town!' argument is pointless pointless pointless GAH WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS.

Because I want to get it right. I don't want town to be clearing people based on roles when we've missed another possibility.

Astley:

Now, had you said that they could have killed whoever you sent it to N1

I did say that.

Oh, and X-Box. Please don't quote bit-by-bit. All it does is make you a hypocrite, as you only use up more space, making yourself look like you're talking more than you are.

How else am I supposed to respond to specific accusations? Go for the girls' one-link technique?

AyB:

if I'm scum and Touhou's town, then there is no point for Touhou to lie about his role or his results

Yes, but town Touhou would've been able to prove to the rest of us that they were town, by telling us who cake targeted. Which possibility you had just destroyed. And if Touhou proves they are town that proves (modulo crazy roles) you are scum, which you would obviously want to sabotage.

And more 2g1c. I won't respond to everything (how can I?), and going through each of my posts line by line to claim they're all reportery is pushing hypocrisy further than I thought possible. While I don't want to push this too hard, I don't see why I'm even under consideration when we have one of Touhou or AyB is definitely scum, but whatever. I will respond to a few things.

I think I didn't answer this? It's pure theorycruft anyway and kinda pointless to answer regardless, and since I'm not content to play theorycruft -and- it's a basic logic step, eh.

Then why mention it at all? If you post something based on logic and make you logic public, it gives other people a chance to spot any mistakes; if you just say "X can't be whatever, basic logical leap I don't care to elaborate on right now", it a) sounds kinda like you've got rolestuff reasons rather than just using what's public and b) just makes it harder for everyone else.

(if Bel-Air's scum we get Touhou, too! ...is how it reads. No, if you really think Bel-Air's scum make the case, outline it very well (and be ready to argue that Touhou's either scum or Bel-Air's untrackable/godfather/whatthehellchristever, I stare into bastard moddery later if needed but not right now), don't do it because of what is effectively the info we get (Touhou's alignment), nevermind that Belair being town can't clear Touhou...)

I really thought, and think, Bel-Air is scummiest. Because of the complete lack of content, if it needs that much spelling out. Was this unclear?
Why didn't I want to lynch Bel-Air then and there? a) exactly, Bel-Air's flip tells us nothing about Touhou, or anyone else, but more importantly b) I was hoping last night would give Touhou chance to prove they were town, which would clear Bel-Air without needing any deaths.

I said even I don't know if they have my role info or not there.

That's not how I read it; you said they know your role, and then that this makes it useless or not depending on how much "info" they have. Which I took to mean that your role is somehow dependent on some other info about the rest of the roles/game, and ignored as more of the random zero-information hints that you love dropping about your role.

saying you're town doesn't move our little hearts of stone and mudslides

And it certainly shouldn't, but how else am I supposed to respond to "you're scum, because the scum did this and you're scum", which seems to be the basis of your jacket argument.

[Princess Leia]

Ok, I'd been ignoring the attacks on theory as just a different playstyle, but turns out I do want to respond to it.

Unless it pins scum by itself, it is useless except as -secondary- to actual argument - and this is perhaps my biggest issue.

For most of D3 I thought it pinned the scum to one among two, which at that point would have pretty much won the game for town. Yes, turns out I was wrong - which shows why it was worth posting. If I hadn't posted it I'd be sitting here thinking Touhou was in the clear.

The phrase "secondary" seems a bit much. Theory should surely be used first, to tell you who to concentrate your scumhunting attentions on, rather than after you've already picked your suspicions.

Yes, I'm not as good at scumhunting as I am at theory, which is why theory is more prominent in my posts. I've posted what opinions I have, and whenever I saw what looked like a slip in someone's post I pointed that out (which got me nothing but grief). No, I haven't done post-by-post "dissections" of people I think are scummy. If you really think they're helpful I can do; I don't really see the use myself (summarizing what they've posted so far, yes. But going through each post individually and looking at it in the worst or best light, isn't that just reporting?)