Cthulu Mafia - TOWN (drunk) WIN, MADNESS SOMEWHAT AVERTED

[Helga Pataki]

My role PM says my name is Chad Hutchins, and on day 3 my name won't be changed to something other than Chad Hutchins.  When day 3 comes along you can hold me to that to see if I'm tellin the truth.  Is this valuable?  Does it say anything about me?  Is it worth keepin me alive for if you think I'm scummy?

Wow, it really says something as bizarre as that?!

Seriously, I know you're being hyperbolic, but the analogy you give is inaccurate because we have no way of knowing if you are telling the truth.

What Hellsnake said was "At X time I can do Y, and I will, or else I am a liar."  And a liar about something like that?  Obviously anti-town, so to the gallows he goes.

[Helga Pataki]

Before I forget, this is very important about Pietro's cop claim.

When he roleclaims, he tells us two things:

1. Pietro's flavor makes him believe he is not a sane cop.  Either he's insane (but we can ABSOLUTELY rule this out) or he's paranoid.
2. Pietro tunneled onto Hellsnake today and pushed for him to be lynched ASAP because he got a Scum result.  (I could buy this, especially with his "let the record show" line in his first post today.)

Except...

When an insane cop gets a Scum result, he has cleared a person unless he hit a Godfather.

When a paranoid cop gets a Scum result, he knows NOTHING more than he did.

So based on HIS OWN suspicions about his role, Pietro should have been inclined to hunt scum anywhere BUT Hellsnake, prior to Hellsnake's Miller claim (since at the time lack of sanity could be either insane or paranoid), or at the very least to try to put his investigation at the back of his mind while he hunted whatever turned up.

And to borrow a page from Pietro's own book, if he is a Paranoid Cop then his claim shouldn't dissuade us from lynching him.  All it means is that he has an informational role that does not, in fact, provide information.  We shouldn't "lynch him because he's useless," but we shouldn't wait to lynch him because he might be cop.

[Chad Hutchins]

Yeah, but that only works if we think Hellsnake is townie (if he lies he hangs).  For anyone who thinks he's scummy anyway, him being able to bring someone back still doesn't prove anything positive about him, so why not lynch him?  If he guaranteed a full revival, MAYBE, since that's tangible pro town action if he is town (unless there's role madness interfering) but with that clause saying he may only get to make a corpse talk a bit?  Ehhhh. 

Also for those of you randomly speculating on millers - "Miller" may well mean "returns scum to any cop investigation, overriding cop's sanity" so don't be all "Pietro can't be a paranoid cop!".  Not that I think it particularly matters though...

[Helga Pataki]

Yeah, but that only works if we think Hellsnake is townie (if he lies he hangs).  For anyone who thinks he's scummy anyway, him being able to bring someone back still doesn't prove anything positive about him, so why not lynch him?  If he guaranteed a full revival, MAYBE, since that's tangible pro town action if he is town (unless there's role madness interfering) but with that clause saying he may only get to make a corpse talk a bit?  Ehhhh.

OK, if you think he's the scummiest player and no one else is in the ballpark, I can see where you're coming from.  On the flip side, if there's a question between two scummy people and one floats the possibility he can provide a powerful, provable service to Town the next day, why wouldn't you go for the OTHER scummy person?

This doesn't apply if you DON'T think Pietro's been as, more or nearly as scummy, obviously.

Also for those of you randomly speculating on millers - "Miller" may well mean "returns scum to any cop investigation, overriding cop's sanity" so don't be all "Pietro can't be a paranoid cop!".  Not that I think it particularly matters though...

Pietro can always be a Paranoid Cop.

Miller overriding Insane Cop is... possible, I guess?  Different Mods would run it differently, I suppose, but it's weird to me because it makes well-played Insane Cop BETTER than normal Cop.

My point is that, if your flavor made you think you were Insane or Paranoid, why would you go whole-hog pushing the lynch of a person who your investigation seemed to clear (Insane) or tell you nothing about (Paranoid)?

[Maya Kumashiro]

My point is that, if your flavor made you think you were Insane or Paranoid, why would you go whole-hog pushing the lynch of a person who your investigation seemed to clear (Insane) or tell you nothing about (Paranoid)?

Your logic requires the confirmation that Hellsnake is really a miller; how do you know this?

[Helga Pataki]

My point is that, if your flavor made you think you were Insane or Paranoid, why would you go whole-hog pushing the lynch of a person who your investigation seemed to clear (Insane) or tell you nothing about (Paranoid)?

Your logic requires the confirmation that Hellsnake is really a miller; how do you know this?

Actually, no, it doesn't.

The only thing (I originally thought) the Miller claim did was prove you were not Insane.  Because obviously Hellsnake either really is a Miller, or is lying and almost certainly Scum (or third party, I guess?)  But Chad points out that Miller could override Insane, so it doesn't reflect on your sanity at all.

My point has nothing to do with whether Hellsnake is a Miller, Scum OR Town.  It's purely about your investigation, what you told us you feared about your role, and how you behaved BEFORE Hellsnake's Miller claim.

If you're Paranoid, your investigation tells you nothing.  Pushing for the person you investigated on that basis would be questionable at best.  There was ample reason to consider Hellsnake scum, but I'm hardly the only person who concluded from you pushed way too hard, with very poor arguments.

If you were Insane, which is now, I suppose, theoretically possible, your investigation CLEARED Hellsnake.  I mean, he DID come up Scum, right?  An Insane Cop's Scum result means either he hit Godfather (no way of knowing this role even exists, and it's a low probability to hit it Day 1) or he hit a Townie (certain to be the majority of the players in the game and thus statistically likely).  This would be a reason to BACK OFF of Hellsnake, not to pursue him aggressively, DEFINITELY not to tunnel onto him as you yourself admited you did today.

If you were unsure if you were Sane, Insane or Paranoid, then your investigation would be basically a null tell until you knew more by making multiple investigations and backing it up with serious, hard-nosed scumhunting in the days to come.  It STILL would not be a good reason to tunnel onto Hellsnake, and it still does not in any way excuse the way you pursued that case (or your Day 1).

[Bill Hellsnake]

...bloody... GRAAAH. Ok. Quite large post just got nom'd. Will try to summarize as best I can. For now, GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!

*sigh* Peyton, it was Seamus, not Hargreaves, who said I was 'begging for an excuse to claim Miller.'

Chad, if you wouldn't mind explaining just how leaving me alive, when there are other alternatives, is a negative for Town, then please speak up now. Because, far as I can see, no matter what my alignment is, I'm pretty much locked into being pro-town if I want to live. (Also, what do you mean by 'last night'?)

Can offer stuff on my backstory if people want, but basically, tonight I'll find out if The Stars Are Right, or if The Stars Are Silent. Right = Full revive, save powers. Silent = One-day talk. Either way, something will happen. I do this on Night 3, so Day 4 is when people show up.

"Nothing more to talk about" seems kinda harsh, given there are at LEAST 4 people who've yet to give their say on things as they stand now; Seamus among them. And, if nothing else, we can try to figure out this whole 3-Miller business.

I know somebody knows SOMETHING I'm looking for. So. Any information on Aorako, nearby altars, or the Order of Unseen Wisdom. Order is less important, since my Revival comes on the Night of the Full Moon (so, theoretically, we could have a Night 31, wherein I get another shot of revival) and so it coinciding with one of their important dates is coincidence, I'm sure. Or maybe not, since Cthulu, but.

Ragh. Sufficient? ... Yeah. Peyton covers everything I had to say to Pietro. Although I will say this: The wording heavily implies that I will return Town to insane cops.

[Bill Hellsnake]

Oh, right. I completely forgot about one of the conditions on my revival--aside from the one determining if the stars are right--is that some people I am simply unable to revive. Lynch victims are generally A-OK, but yeah. (And no, this doesn't mean anything about alignment whatsoever, so please nobody take this as being a scumtell or towntell. It really is just plain neutral, since I have no clue who I won't be able to revive yet, and may never know)

[Helga Pataki]

*sigh* Peyton, it was Seamus, not Hargreaves, who said I was 'begging for an excuse to claim Miller.'

My bad.

Can offer stuff on my backstory if people want, but basically, tonight I'll find out if The Stars Are Right, or if The Stars Are Silent. Right = Full revive, save powers. Silent = One-day talk. Either way, something will happen. I do this on Night 3, so Day 4 is when people show up.

>_<

So you're actually asking us to leave you alive for TWO days regardless of our take on your alignment, not just one.

I don't have a second person I'm deeply suspicious of.  Not at ALL sure I'm comfortable leaving you up and about for yet another day, unless something else turns up in the meantime.

"Nothing more to talk about" seems kinda harsh, given there are at LEAST 4 people who've yet to give their say on things as they stand now; Seamus among them. And, if nothing else, we can try to figure out this whole 3-Miller business.

I tend to agree with this, especially in light of your having to live as far as Night 3 if we decide to put your claim to the test.

But I'll say this.  I don't believe we're going to figure out the 3-Miller business without somebody dying.

[Li Syaoran]

Christ. Jumble of stuff these past couple days, and I've finally caught up. Took long enough.

First off, this is annoyingly late enough in the day phase, and I apologise for this, however I feel it is important enough to be mentioned. I did target Moses Bike last night, however, my action is not a delayed kill (unless the mod is even more of a bastard than I had expected). Rather, it is a rolecop: I find out their role "ability", but like everything else in this bloody game, it comes wrapped in the usual case of flavour-insanity. However, I am not sure if I am willing to or if I even need to reveal what I found out about Bike's role last night (there have been enough roleclaims so far, and I am unconvinced that cracking the setup wide-open at this point is a good idea, considering what just happened in memes mafia), but if Bike himself or enough of the rest of Town want me to, then I will.

Incidentally, at this point, I am pretty convinced that Bike is Town, I see no reason to suspect otherwise, he hasn't done any Anti-Town actions, etc.

Anyway, onto events. First off: Multiple Millers? U Role Mad. Then again, hardly *surprising*, given the flavour, but still.

Actually, you know what, screw it, this could be very relevant: I myself am ALSO a miller. Miller is tied to me being from out-of-town, as well as the specific nature of my rolecop power (namely that it comes from a glowing stone that came into my posession one day - furthermore, it is also stated in my role PM that the results of said power "are a trap", though no clarification on the nature of said trap is given)

On second thought, four millers? What the shit. Okay, so this basically forces today to be between Pietro and Hellsnake, I highly doubt that both of them are telling the truth, this is just ridiculous. Anyway, there is no reason to vote Hellsnake today for the simple reason that we can easily see if he is telling the truth, as he said: lynch Pietro today, if Pietro is scum then hooray, otherwise, have Hellsnake revive Pietro, if this doesn't work then lynch Hellsnake for fakeclaiming. Of course, Hellsnake *could* try and claim being roleblocked or some shenanigans like that, which could complicate this, but given the choice between the two, I'd rather lynch Pietro now over Hell-in-a-Handbasket, even if the latter decided to randomly become near-useless at one point and then flail around like crazy speaking in terrible Icelandic for absolutely no good reason.

If Hellsnake is scum and lying we should lynch him now, not days from now.  Even if he IS a reviver, that don't make him town.  What's to stop him from bein oh maybe like third party Aothingy cult and the guy he revives joins him in it?  Just as a possibility.

Highly unlikely, and I'm not sure if he is lying. I'm still more convinced that Pietro is lying at this point. As for the whole cult aspect, alignment-switching/rules/etc.

Anyway, far more willing to vote Pietro at the moment out of Scumminess, but I'm not sure if that's the best course of action given the FOUR-MILLERS nonsense at this point in time. Hm.

Yeah, Pietro it is. ##Vote: Pietro Giovanni

I am not seeing any case on Handley, beyond the usual lurking charge, which also applies to myself and Martin Andrews, so I have no clue why people are voting for him beyond the usual LAL reasoning.

Hadley, could you please explain this:

"That's my whole story; I checked out the old Unseen Wisdom lodge ((this was provided flavor)) and looked in to make sure Mr. Bike was safe ((my night action)).  Some time during the night ((My PM did not specify what I was doing at the time)) I got attacked, but a spell I learned from one of my previous investigations gave the attacker a right good surprise.  The lunatic who jumped me didn't seem to be after Mr. Bike ((PM did specify this)), but me."

So it was specified that you explicitly were attacked, and not Mr.Bike? Again, why the need to roleclaim, then?

[Helga Pataki]

((FOUR millers what is this i dont even))

"Well, my Russian friend, glad to see you've decided us Americans are worth your time after all."

"I told folks what I'd done on account of it was relevant at the time.  Mr. Daniels was of the view that there being TWO of a role meant one of was liable to be Scum, and I happened to know that wasn't so.  I suppose I could've kept my mouth shut about lending a hand to Mr. Bike and just told folks I've got ways of foiling a killer against myself, but saw no reason not to fullclaim.  After all, I'd already told Town I had a two-part role, and at the time I thought maybe it would shed some light on Mr. Bike's strange evening."

"And yes, since you ask, I'm quite sure that madman last night was out for my blood.  It happened when I was on my way up to the Lodge, not at Mr. Bike's room."

((The Mod did not provide flavor for how or where I was attacked, but was very specific about my being the one attacked, not Moses.))

"If your power comes from the Mythos, Kolmogorov, I'd lay good money it's dangerous.  And you're using it without even knowing what it does?  No wonder poor Moses is feeling poorly.  God alone knows what that rock of yours did to him."

((Based on what you've said, I'm inclined to believe the slowkill is indeed the result of your using your power on Moses.  Oddly enough, if that's true it probably reduces your chances of being scum, for the meta reasons Moses talked about when he though Kyle/Sopko did it to him.  Which could still be the case.))

((Note that Pietro being Scum does not in any way preclude Hellsnake ALSO being Scum, although at that point them bussing each other and Hellsnake offering up a provable claim becomes incredibly dangerous unless they're more numerous or powerful than usual.))

((The case on Handley, which I hope I'll have time to return to tomorrow since it's slipped off my radar with this whole Pietro/Hellsnake/Unlimited Miller Works brouhaha, centers around his being gung-ho on Moses Day 1, then dropping his case completely at the start of Day 2 and initially offering a rather weak justification.  He HAS been absent for a while now, but the case was never on lurking.))

[Asuka Langley]

You'll forgive me that my immediate reaction to a 'miller rolecop' claim is to assume 'scum rolecop'. Not that I especially want to probe the likeliness of it right now, but I trust that will receive appropriate attention tomorrow. I implicitly trust that you have information about my role regardless of your alignment in any case, so given that revealing said information doesn't actually say anything about your alignment I'd rather you kept it to yourself in the off-chance that I survive the night and you're not scum.

The one plan that I would like to set up is to insist that at the start of day 3 you reveal your night 2 target before the new person having visions of doom reveals them. By which I mean, hey there future person with doom visions, whoever you are, keep quiet until Nikolai does his thing. Just as an extra check behind whether you're actually accidentally Dr. Doom or not. (Note that this in no way directs any night actions)

Speaking on acting on me and trap and all that, you've heard my flavour, does any of it make sense to you? Sure, maybe you don't know about the whole visions of doom thing and such, but what about the whole 'conversation I can't remember any more' thing? Does that ring any bells? It just seems like we should be able to work out whether it was you or not. Either you know stuff about me because you hypnotised me with a magic stone, or you know stuff about me through different means.

I'd actually be fairly hopeful if it was you, because a rolecop/slowkill combo seems almost (but not quite) pointless. Also yes, it would massively raise Kyle back up the ladder of suspicion.

I'm still concerned about how a super doctor fits in with game balance, though I guess the conclusion is just not to second guess what scum have. The first port of call would be to register any possible doubt with Peyton, but the thing is that he took the attack last night, and there are very few gambits where scum could possibly survive faking that claim (the main one would be if a non-scum roleblocker had blocked the goon on the kill, so scum would know that no one would counter claim, but in a role madness game I'd expect a town roleblocker to be surprised that their target hadn't claimed to be roleblocked). Still leaves ITP possibilities, but hey.

And hey, four millers. Who even knows if that's supposed to be the connection to my information any more. Can't immediately fathom why two scum would jump into the frying pan of their own volition, but it can stew. Like, Nikolai's vote would make sense as scum given it would drag out the miller mess for an extra day, but it doesn't reconcile with his own claim, which serves nothing but to drag him into further scrutiny. Wouldn't add to the number of mislynches or anything.

Oh, and all of this nonsense about keeping the Hellvole alive because of his role malarckey. There's a good reason to lynch him now: do not suffer scum to live. I'd care more about this distinction people are making - and maybe it should be looked on in more scrutiny in later days should Pietro be town and Hellmegasquid be scum - if not for my willingness to off them both.

Speaking of which, no, I'm not going to lame out and drop the hammer now, as much as I'd like to and am in position for. Fortunately I'm busy enough today anyway that only the last few hours will be a nuisance.

[Nathan Greaves]

((Four miller claims makes me very confused. For now ##Unvote so we don't get a lynch with almost a day's discusion left, but I'll be around later to make a final decision.

Something I've only just realised. Hadley claimed BP/Bodyguard, but didn't Callahan claim BP...? Obviously no time to look into it today, but a curious fact to look at tomorrow. This setup is really getting weird.

And yes, Hellsnake, some flavour would be appreciated.))

[Asuka Langley]

Look closer, Nathan. The fact that Tyrone had claimed bulletproof was part of what led to Peyton making his roleclaim in the first place. Not to mention the huge mess to resolve if suggesting his 'hey guys I took the hit last night' is a lie. Also, Tyrone didn't just claim bulletproof - it is confirmed in the flip following his lynch.

[Li Syaoran]

The one plan that I would like to set up is to insist that at the start of day 3 you reveal your night 2 target before the new person having visions of doom reveals them. By which I mean, hey there future person with doom visions, whoever you are, keep quiet until Nikolai does his thing. Just as an extra check behind whether you're actually accidentally Dr. Doom or not. (Note that this in no way directs any night actions)

Gotcha, and seconding this plan, whoever you will be. Keep quiet until I've posted who my investigation target was, on D3.

Speaking on acting on me and trap and all that, you've heard my flavour, does any of it make sense to you? Sure, maybe you don't know about the whole visions of doom thing and such, but what about the whole 'conversation I can't remember any more' thing? Does that ring any bells? It just seems like we should be able to work out whether it was you or not. Either you know stuff about me because you hypnotised me with a magic stone, or you know stuff about me through different means.

Interestingly enough, my role flavour states that by having the stone in my posession, I basically just read people's auras - no hypnosis needed. The "conversation I can't remember anymore" thing, however, makes sense, given that I can't remember the name of the person, or the conversation I had with him, before getting the stone from him - just that he was a friendly, bearded man who was always "The Patriarch". Hm. Hmm. Interesting.

And hey, four millers. Who even knows if that's supposed to be the connection to my information any more. Can't immediately fathom why two scum would jump into the frying pan of their own volition, but it can stew. Like, Nikolai's vote would make sense as scum given it would drag out the miller mess for an extra day, but it doesn't reconcile with his own claim, which serves nothing but to drag him into further scrutiny. Wouldn't add to the number of mislynches or anything.

Oh, and all of this nonsense about keeping the Hellvole alive because of his role malarckey. There's a good reason to lynch him now: do not suffer scum to live. I'd care more about this distinction people are making - and maybe it should be looked on in more scrutiny in later days should Pietro be town and Hellmegasquid be scum - if not for my willingness to off them both.

Here's the thing - they're both quite horrible, and I'd be 100% perfectly content with a lynch of either of them. The main difference however is that the Hellvole can prove himself to some extent very easily via role malarckey (though I'm unconvinced as to why a bounty hunter would have a revive ability - care to clarify how your role flavour explains that, Hellsnake?), whereas a cop who got a Scum result on a claimed Miller (we can assume that either he's a Miller, in which case he inv's as Scum, or he's a non-GF Scum, in which case he inv's as...Scum! Otherwise there is no point for a non-Miller Town or a Scum GF to fakeclaim Miller unless they are being extremely suicidal and actively playing against their win condition and whatnot, and thus I will consider that possibility completely inadmissible), which pegs Pietro as either Sane or Paranoid, if he's Paranoid or Fakeclaiming he could just claim that he gets guilties on everyone and not have to worry about anything, whereas if he gets an innocent on someone who later flips Town, he gets proven as a Sane Cop. This requires at least one more investigation and a flip of someone who was inv'd as Innocent, which could take another day or two to get.

Really, I could go either way - the case on Hellsnake is self-evident, practically, and...well.

Hm. The other issue is that Pietro's play so far plays pretty closely to that of a Cop's:
- Lurking D1, just getting by. Recall that both Scum AND powerful Town Power Roles want to not attract attention to themselves D1.
- Opens D2 with a vote on Hellsnake, followed by more accusation and tunnelling on Hellsnake, with a vehement belief that Hellsnake is, in fact, Scum, and keeps this up until the Miller Madness(TM), and even a bit past that.
- The Cop roleclaim doesn't seem to be at least inherently inconsistent in any way, despite being a bit unexpected at this time.

Pietro, what *exactly* does it say when it claims that you are somehow "not fully Sane as a Cop?". Answer this question as best as you can, this could potentially be quite important.

Anyway, will be on and around until deadline.

[Bardiche]

Ronald Dale;

... Four millers and/or a Godfather. This setup is completely wacky and I am headdesking something fierce.

Why the hell are all the millers claiming and ohgodwhatisthis.

[SnowFire]

Sticking this in its own post.

Shale has still been incommunicado.  I requested in the extension that people hold off from hammering 'till our lurkers had a chance to post.  Since there's only 6 hours left, I'm not going to screw up everyone else's schedules even more due to this.  This "don't hammer" request is removed; feel free to hammer and end the day whenever.

If Shale posts in time, then great, and if he doesn't, he will be modkilled with flip at end of day.

[Chiaki]

OOC: Okay, back. Finally. That was a hellish fucking week, and the only chance I've had to visit the boards under any username was late-night Friday, under any username. I realize this reflects incredibly poorly on me in any case, and I'll understand whatever the group wants to do. In the meantime, I'm going to get down to playing the game, and the chips can fall where they may.

[Bill Hellsnake]

Alright, my story goes as follows.

It was an easy case; wannabe mafioso jumped bail. His daddy was a professor at Miskatonic U, so I figured he'd go there to visit his family. Nothing at the house, so I checked the daddy's office. There was something about an expedition in British Iraq, but I didn't think much of it at the time, except that maybe I could catch a quick nap over by the crates from the exploration. The boy wasn't likely to show today anyway, so what's the harm? Anyway, as I was lying down, I heard the scuttling of insects; again, thought nothing of it at the time. As I was sleeping, I woke up to the feeling of something crawling up my nose, and before I could do anything about it... I was hearing something, and bowing so hard my face was in the dirt. It told me it had it's dog leash upon me, and sent me to sleep by saying, "Should there not be peace? Rest, gather strength." And I was out for a good 12 hours.

That was 8 months ago. Since then, my priorities have been a little... different. I immediately researched the expedition, and found out my new Master was a Psychic overlord of an ancient Sumerian civilization. I, personally, am not too sure what it wants, but... Unity and peace seems like a safe bet.

Some oddities have arisen, however. I can understand it, for the most part, but it doesn't seem to know the names of locations in this day and age, so following its instructions can get a little... difficult. Master also isn't aware of things like guns, railroads, telegraphs, etc. However, like I mentioned earlier, Master gives me... power. Lots of it. It's not a specific kind of power, it's a pretty general thing, but it is quite notable in that it helps me catch my Bounties. I mean, I don't seem to need sleep anymore, I have incredible physical strength, and... well, you guys all saw another one the night of the murder. When I yell, people cower before me and work to fulfill my wishes. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. (Though I have found out that if I get drunk--really, REALLY drunk--I can escape Master's influence)

Anyway, Master's new mission is to find the Altar of Aorako; it's the only reason I'm here to begin with. The altar looks like stone circles, north of here. Once I find them, my new instructions should be made clear.

Master can do many things, and in a search for peace, bringing back the dead is a worthy goal, is it not? Although... with that kind of backstory, it is rather hard not to look suspicious, don't you agree? ((Roach = Super powers, like reviving dead. Super powers = Suspicious = Miller. Actually, there's a LOT about me that's suspicious, so take your pick, really))

Ninja'd by mod and Andrews. Not much to say, other than welcome back, and I hope this next week goes much better for you.

[SnowFire]

Votecount.

Moses Bike [ 0]: Bill Hellsnake
Pietro [6]: Seamus (Excal), Peyton Hadley, Nathan Greaves, Moses Bike, Bill Hellsnake, Sam Hargreaves, Ronald Dale (Bardiche), Ethan Hayles, Peyton Hadley, Nikolai Kolmogorov
Bill Hellsnake [6]: Moses Bike, Kyle Handley (Sopko), Pietro, Jack Daniels, Seamus (Excal), Moses Bike, Chad Hutchins
Kyle Handley (Sopko) [ 0]: Sam Hargreaves, Bill Hellsnake, Chad Hutchins
Peyton Hadley [ 0]: Ethan Hayles
Ethan Hayles [ 0]: Ronald Dale (Bardiche)
Nikolai Kolmogorov [ 0]: Jack Daniels

No votes placed: Martin Andrews, Nathan Greaves.

There are 6 hours left in Day 2.  With 14 investigators, it takes 8 to lynch.

[Chad Hutchins]

Martin Andrews!  What do you know about the Order of Unseen Wisdom and its ceremonies and stuff?

Mass claims!  What in the I don't even know.

Hellsnake is still more suspicious than Pietro to me.  His miller claim play was incredibly dodgy, he's been oddly unhelpful and defensive since then, and his roleclaim was also vague (first "day 3" now "night 3/day 4").  Those not wanting to vote for him because of his roleclaim, I urge consideration of the facts that A. it doesn't prove anything about him and B. Pietro can ALSO prove himself to some extent and benefit town with revealing his investigations.

 

[Helga Pataki]

Martin Andrews - Welcome back!  Sorry about your weekend, and IMO it's a null tell since you've been totally out of communication to this point.  I don't envy you the catching up you'll have to do.

Chad and Kolmogorov - You both assert that Pietro CAN prove he's a town Cop, provided he's sane.  This is not true.  He can give us strong reason to BELIEVE he's a Cop by getting a Scum result on someone who subsequently flips Scum and a Town result on someone who subsequently flips Town, but Scum have that information, too.  That's why Cop is such a powerful fakeclaim.

That's not to say Pietro ISN'T a Cop, just that he can't PROVE he is without his flip or some combination of other investigations backing up his claim.

However, I definitely agree with Chad that waiting to lynch Hellsnake because his claim can prove him town is not correct, either.

You know what would be an awesome fakeclaim for a Scum Reviver?  Town Miller Reviver, then use your power to raise a townie so everyone trusts you and excuses everything else you've done.  Sure, scum lose a day's worth of nightkilling, but if the reviver is allowed to coast as "proven" town that's a more than fair trade.

The benefit here is that we get back a Townie.  Eventually.

The more I think about it, the more I believe all that really matters is which one of the two looks Scummier.  At the moment that's Pietro for me, but I'm going to give them both another full readthrough.

NOTE

I will NOT be available at deadline.  I have to leave for dinner and a show around 5:00 EST and have to get cleaned up before I leave.  The following series of re-reads are almost certainly going to be my last contribution today.

[Asuka Langley]

Brace for impact.

[Bill Hellsnake]

...

Uh, Chad, what are you on? First off, your points contradict each other. (Hellsnake can't prove anything, but Pietro can prove something just like Hellsnake!) Next, I see you're still not quite getting the logic behind lynching Pietro over me today. Yes, suffer no scum to live. However, I am absolutely no threat to you to leave alive an extra day when you've got another choice. You have to suffer a scum to live pretty much no matter what (assuming we're both scum). I'm also curious as to where you thought I said "Day 3" in any of that, aside from "When I'll know how effective my revival is." Other people have been making assumptions on my role without grabbing the full information; not my fault.

Finally, what can Pietro prove? Assume he's Town; his investigations are unreliable, and thus unhelpful. It would take more than two nights from now to check on his sanity/if he's paranoid. So proving his claim takes longer. However, it's incredibly difficult to DISprove his claim, short of killing him, as he has claimed he could be sane, insane, or paranoid. Now assume he's scum. He KNOWS who is scum, and who is town/TP. He can, say, point to Moses or Jack tomorrow, and say "these guys are town!"

Ninja'd by Peyton, pretty much summing up what I've said. Although I am now extremely suspicious of Chad for the power-backing of Pietro.

I will also ask who honestly thought I was trying to "buy Town insurance" with my claim? I am fully aware that it proves absolutely nothing about my alignment.

...God damn, what kind of lunatic would pull Miller/Reviver as a scum gambit? It makes no sense. Ugh.

[Bill Hellsnake]

Oh, yeah. And I haven't fullclaimed yet. And... well, I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not to fullclaim. But I have good reason not to have said anything, save some breadcrumbing on my third power.