DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win

[Cotigo]

Skimming ever so briefly... it doesn't, really, at least not in a way that's immediately obvious to me.

[Excal]

18 hours before your not so benevolent overlords require constant entertainment.

I will speak with Xanth before I do anything too harsh, and if some time without pressure to produce will help calm people then I will either lengthen days (you guys have been wonderfully productive regardless of what time of day its been) or just give you guys an extra long night to soak things up (which may also get me enough time to give a damn about replacing Noyn).  Given what's up with Yoshi as well right now, extra long night sounds fine.

As a side note, I will not, at this point, replace anyone else besides Noyn.  He is getting replaced now only because there will not be a sudden change in personality (unless you count non-existant as a personality)

[Kilgamayan]

The point behind blabbing that was to point out that, even under Tai's interpretation of Laggy's action, Laggy's action was still scummy (as scummy as any ED1 action from a townie can be, but). Either Laggy was cherrypicking meta (mine/Xanth's interpretation) or he didn't do research important to his point (Tai's interpretation), so as far as I'm concerned Xanth's vote was fine. (If it was indeed the second thing, Laggy didn't exactly do a great job of clarifying as such in his response to Xanth - it's possible that, had Laggy indeed been approaching the situation from the same viewpoint as Tai and then proceeded to go "derp I forgot" or some such when Xanth pointed out the counterexample, Xanth would have removed his vote.)

[SnowFire]

Will keep this brief.

Yoshiken re-read: Feeling about him the same as I feel about Carthrat; IOW worried but not feeling he's anywhere near as scummy as Alice / Rou.  Similar vibe to Rat - I can't say I really agree with Yoshi at all, but holding strong opinions with reasons is better than lurking (Alice) / sniping (Rou).  And it seems he has a strong RL reason for not being around later in Day 2.  Definitely interested in hearing what Yoshi thinks when he gets back though.

Taishyr re-read (which entailed a Xanth re-read as well): I will be honest and say that after re-reading it I now have no idea what the entire Xanth-Tai debate means, if anything.  Still leaning town on Xanth due to the suicide vote but as for Taishyr, his Day 2 content that doesn't have to do with Xanth has been good if a bit long-winded.  I think it's probably safer to go back to Day 1, where his attempted move onto Yoshiken...  hrmm.  Kilga already covered this at night, could be a townie trying to stop a mislynch, could be scum trying to get a different townie lynched who isn't around to roleclaim, but considering I found Yoshi at least somewhat suspicious on Day 1, I can't really fault Tai for this.  So yeah.  This ends up being a wordy way of saying "I have a confused null tell on Taishyr and didn't discover anything new."

Conclusion: Yeah, I'm sticking by Alice > Rou >> Rat = Yoshi on my lynch list pretty much.

Also, for whatever it's worth, don't want to spark a whole 'nother debate, but I'm a huge fan of anonymafias as well, Zenny.  They definitely defuse a lot of the player meta.

[Cotigo]

Dropping in once again to say that I am 100% for a longer night phase, at the very least for tonight.  Also, I don't think lengthening the day phase would help ease tensions any.

[Excal]

Works by me.  This Night Phase will be two days long, and we'll start back up again some time Tuesday

[Yoshiken]

Right. Woke up about an hour and a half ago, been catching up on the topic, apologies if I've missed anything major. Anyways, should have the whole day to burn today so, ignoring sleep/illness shenanigans, should hopefully be around for deadline. Hopefully.

Reaaally not seeing the raegquit as a scumXanth strategy. What with using IRL circumstances to explain it and Xanth's normal competitive nature with Mafia, I'm pretty much certain on townXanth now. Strangely enough, this makes me read Tai as more town, if only because of the tone of his posts - it's rare to see scum push a single case that hard, even if it is against Xanth, and I'm willing to chalk that up to a Town/Town struggle for now. Will still consider Tai if something else comes up, but he's been decent enough so far.

Gonna grab food and do a re-read over Rou/Rat/Alice/Snow in particular in a bit, but first, quickly replying to this since it was specifically asked of me. This was your case here, so:
 - I know you've said about seeing anti-D1-LAL as a nice hiding place for scum, but I don't think it tells anything (for obvious reasons) (note: you said nothing about that being scummy here, but you've mentioned it since, so thought I'd clarify)
 - That post looked at several people, while you claimed it looked at just Zenny and Snow. I kneejerked at the time (and still go with) that Snow's was the only one you even slightly agreed with, and the vote was on Zenny, hence mentioning that, but the post also looks at cases on Noyn and MC, as well as the LAL thing. I also don't agree with the reporter charge there, since pretty much every point (except possibly Noyn's?) has been provided mostly with opinion.
 - Ehh, I guess that's a slight misrep? I still agree with what he did say about it, though, with the... Imouto Defence, as he calls it. I can see both sides of the argument with the points on Zenny - original content is good, but supporting other arguments you agree with is also good. I can still see why he'd press that, though.
 - You say yourself that claiming intent to hammer and then voting is a null read, which I agree on - saying you're happy to vote someone and then voting them is not suspicious.
 - The point on Zenny/Ciato seemed fair (I know Zenny's explained it since, but I can see how that'd be suspicious using Ctrl+F, at least), and the L-3 WHHYYYYY... Yes, it was an old point, but I still don't like Zenny's response to that either, as... someone pointed out. I'll find that on a reread. Basically, saying "I overreacted!" is weak, since any vote can be attributed to "I overreacted to x point" - obviously a more extreme example, but shows why the argument holds no ground. "If I were scum" is... baiting WIFOM or something? "If I were scum, I'd do this!" "But then, would scum do that so they could claim they could do this?" (On that note, I need to check over MC's Day 2 as well - can't even remember if she replied to that one)
 - tl;dr: his arguments had been mostly agreeable, even if you don't agree with the target(s), and I think there'd definitely been worse to that point.

Ninja and longer night phase works for me, since I have plans for tomorrow.

[Kilgamayan]

So, Alice re-read. Squeezing this in during commercials; Revenge of the Sith is quite distracting.

First post: I have no real explanation for why he chose MC over Laggy at the time despite spending a lot more time on the former. If we're doling out "original content points", though, he gets one for being the first to ask why I thought Zenny's brainfart was worth voting for. I believe someone questioned Alice talking about Laggy "complaining about the Rat train"; I believe this is to what Alice referred.

In all seriousness, Rat's in Aussieland and probably just now coming around. Give 'em time.

Perhaps not an out-and-out complaint, but still something of a voice against it. I can see why Alice would have said what he said there. The backpedaling charge, though? Not a big fan, it came about because of an Excal note about Alice's attendence, and it's a bit dickish to call someone for backpedaling when the mod gives them a good reason to do so.

Second post: The case on Snowfire is original if nothing else. Snow defended part of it, Alice went elsewhere later. Not much else to say here.

Third post: I have no idea where the MC vote came from. It's like he never dropped it in the first place. Maybe the Snow vote was some sort of delaying tactic? Possible. I could see getting suspicious of Alice for this.

Fourth post: Basically nothing but defense, so. He has a couple of posts after this that are barely even woth mentioning (beyond pointing out an "initial read of Yoshi" that came out null without any followup).

Conclusion: There's some stuff Alice could be busted for here, though active lurking isn't one of them (for all the meaning that has now). I...actually did not notice how weak the MC vote was at the time, and he's had forever to explain it.

---

This is one of those times where I wish I had two votes, because I'm seeing some good reasons to vote for Alice, but I don't want to move off of Tai. I'm not in the camp that thinks what transpired today definitely makes either of them town; watching it unfold felt somewhat awkward with the way the AtE started flowing in. I even think it's possible the whole thing was staged, yes. I've pulled off this sort of interscum fight before and it was very much worth it because my flip let my buddy coast through the rest of the game to a victory. With the way Xanth and Tai kept dancing around each other's words, and then the really bizarre climax where they both just give up on each other - those were some really quick turnarounds, especially in Tai's case - I don't entirely trust it to be town. And then Tai's jump to Alice, who, good case or bad, could very well simply be a jump to a lurker...ugh, this leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

But I don't think I can really sell this properly, given I believe I'm in a unique position toward viewing it. Maybe during the night, depending on whatever flip we get today.

With that said:

##Unvote: Taishyr
##Vote: Alice

Given all I have is hard-to-substantiate misiginvgs toward Tai, I don't feel I can logically justify staying on him right now.

Extra night-time is also fine by me. No guarantees that I'll be talking the whole way, though.

[Kilgamayan]

EBWOP: For the record, my use of "AtE" applies to the stuff before the self-vote, where it was clear emotions were starting to set it, and I use it in a sense where Xanth and Tai were trying to hit each with it more than try to tell it to the rest of us. I feel nothing for the self-vote - I never have, and I never will - but I'm not going to let Xanth pull an Otter by misrepping something I've said.

(On a side note, a role PM post would make me lose a ton of respect for you, but given FAV's recent heel turn on MotK I guess that's just how the world works nowadays.)

[Excal]

Alright, Alice has told me he is in the process of posting.  He has also necessitated a perma-prod list be created, that I might add him to it.  If he still does not make a substantial post before end of Day, he is toast.

Andy does not feel he can join in good faith.  I was considering trying to find someone, but have decided that is not fair to game to leave someone in a quantum state that long while presenting nothing more than a cypher when they do join.  Which is a damn shame since his role was the one that I created first, and which did a lot to help make the setup what it was.  Fucking Noyn.  Either way, he is dead and will flip at end of day.

Next.  I have made a policy decision.  These dramatic suicide posts create unecessary drama, and poison the meta in unacceptable ways.  I know I certainly don't want to play in games where doing such things is seen as a legitimate way to survive if you are scum.  And I don't want it to be something you can ever get rewarded for.

So, from here on in, in any game I run, if you make a post seriously requesting a modkill in the game topic.  You will get it.  I don't care if it is a legitimate cry for help from a frustrated Townie, or a ploy from Scum, I will treat them both the same.

If you are having issues, and are getting stressed out, then talk to me and I can be flexible, or try and find some way to accomodate you.  I understand that DL Mafia is very fierce, and have no issues with trying to find a middle ground if there is one.  Need to vent?  Send me a PM, it will not go any further than that because, dude, I have been there and I know how things can get.  Think you may need to drop out?  Then at least if you find that you can, after the fact, return to the game, at least the game will not have been dominated by the freak out and changed by it.  These options are available, and I request that you take them.

As such, despite not having given Xanth warning before, he will be Modkilled at Day's end.  I feel the burden of giving advance notice is lessened when it involves fulfilling a player request.

Finally, this is as much a note for Sasarai as it is for the rest of you.  I will be at a friend's place tomorrow when the day ends.  Likely without net access.  Sasarai will be posting day end (or, anyone really since the guidelines are pretty easy to figure out, and we're good at keeping to the spirit of the rules.  Notably, after day ends, so long as the debate on who to lynch keeps going and there isn't a 15 minute gap without a post arguing or debating on the lynches you're good.  Things that don't count are placeholders to halt the lynch, or a string of one-sided arguments because all of the people who think otherwise aren't around, or can't be bothered to respond.  Needs to be a back and forth).


tl;dr

Fucking Noyn is dead at Day's end, do not vote him.
Xanth is dead at Day's end.  All votes on him are gone and will not be recognised as legit.  His vote is also gone.
Alice, will die at Day's end if he does not make a substantive post before day ends.
If you make a dramatic post requesting a mod-kill, you will be modkilled.  No take backs.
Flip will be delayed, end of day will not be under my supervision.  Play nice, kids.

[Kilgamayan]

One more thing.

* First post for Alice in the game! Begins with a misinterp of what Laggy said (it -would- take guts for scum to quicklynch from that train, as a response to Zenthor), has the weird Noyn line that just kinda means nothing, critiques Laggy's comment about the L-2 thing (answer: because it gets reactions, which help us get info), and then comments on the votes/unvotes/revotes/Xanth->Laggy case, jumps on MC for reporting without acknowledging the Yoshiken work at all or why it doesn't count for anything.

Bolding mine. I went back and checked this a couple of times and I still don't know what you're talking about. What did Yoshi have to do with the content of Alice's first post?

Okay, 20 past 4 and I have to sing at church later this morning, really going to bed this time. (Let it never be said I am not dedicated. >_>)

Cut by Excal: Well then. Guess I'll get some answers regarding Xanth/Tai regardless.

[Roukanken]

Great. My entire post just got rendered pointless now that Xanth's been modkilled. FFFFFFFFFFF.

I can't be bothered sitting down to respond to Makkotah, but I'll say this - your case against me revolves around the fact that I can't read. Shouldn't you be looking for players who are scummy rather than careless?

Well since I have a decent enough reason to believe Tai's role and MC is apparently just a new player I think I'll ##Unvote, Vote: Makkotah. Your case on me revolves around semantics and picking out minute points I didn't catch on the first time in order to make up for the fact that you have no defense against the rest.

That's all you get from me for now because ongdsoihnd;poarihda;orihasd;poghieo;rhgiero;ghi nwrognre;ogi I hate this game right now.

[Excal]

LYLO concerns were brought up, so I will say this, the game is not currently in LYLO of any form.

[Taishyr]

* Taitoro generally feels like shit for the Xanth situation at this point. Fuck.

Kilga: I've read and acknowledged your points but give me a bit to go through them, I just woke up and today's promising to be kinda shitty. Re: Yoshiken, though, it's because MC made the breakdown on Yoshiken (which was, to me at least, decent) before that post AFAI remember yet Alice dismissed the entirety of MC's work as reportery at the time without any real attention paid to that. Also, alright: I had been under the impression Alice's lurkscum record on MotK was far longer. You're right, that does help justify the attack far better and I -really- wish it had been said earlier. Rest I'll get to in a bit.

Rou: Carelessness when picking through the topic can be a scumtell, honestly. I need to reread today's events between you two, though, for what that's worth, and I'm not quite sure either way here.

[Yoshiken]

Okay, this game has completely exploded. Time to make sense of what's left.

Firstly, Xanth and Noyn are gone, no reason to look at them. Going to go along with what I said earlier and look specifically at Rou/Rat/Alice/Snow and MC D2.

Hm. Before that, LYLO concerns. Haha, that's a funny point, that. See, what with the modkills and the risk of LYLO approaching quicker, I suddenly decided to take a look at Tai's logic for 3 scum max.

One: Three scum max. 4 scum: Modkill Noyn, 10 players 4 scum, mislynch me, 9 players 4 scum (mislynch town, whatever, I'm vote leader or close enough right now so easiest example), NK someone, 8 players 4 scum, scum win so today would have to be LYLO. It's not unless mod is ditzy. 3 scum max. Tomorrow is likely LYLO.

Now, there are a couple of points in this. Firstly, we've potentially got two more modkills here, and it's still not LYLO. That means one of those three is scum, at least. What caught my eye is Tai saying "Modkill Noyn, [...] 4 scum" - reason to believe Noyn is Town there, Tai? He then says "mislynch me" with the note in brackets to clarify 'or anyone else who's town' - just reads plain weird to me. If you were reading back and noticed that, wouldn't you just change 'mislynch me' to 'mislynch town'?
I also don't like this:

... Xanth, Kilga, MC, Zenny. Could I ask for honest rereads of content of Rat and Alice? Specifically, -how much of their content was stated by people before them-, and would you gauge them to be lurking on average at this point? In other words, are they pulling active lurking?

Reads very much as railroading Town towards Rat/Alice (which seems to have happened, if we ignore suspicions on Rou!) (I'm also wondering why Zenny was included in this, to be honest. It looks like you picked the three people you were assuming to be Town... but I can't see any reason to assume Zenny is Town at this point.)


Okay, doing a D2 reread (already summarised my thoughts on D1 and some D2 at the start of the day) by post order, so...
Starting with Roukanken! The first post is mostly agreeable to me. (Oh, hey, it was Rou who said about overreaction not being an excuse.) Before the post came this one, which reads okay to me as well, for all that he's focusing entirely on MC/Zenny. Both of those have seemed suspicious to me a fair bit, though (and, given I have more time than I thought 'til deadline, I think I'm gonna have to reread Zenny, at least - I'm really not liking what I've seen so far.)  However, the linked post for the overreaction does have one problem, albeit a minor one - he's pushed cases against MC/Zenny all day, and drops the MC one for reasons I can understand, but... he continues to push the case against Zenny, then jumps over to Xanth/Tai argument instead of pushing who he is most suspicious of... which changes back by the next post, despite being for role reasons. Okay, yeah, really not seeing the cases on Rou here. There's little in the way of scummy play to that point, as far as I can see (only thing I'm seeing is abandoning his cases to focus on what I read as a Town/Town (and before people attack me for saying that after the point, I read it as Town/Town on my reread before seeing the raeg because both of them were taking what seemed like small points and focusing on them - it seems far more likely that Scum would try to just find a neutral ground and move to an easier case (hence not clearing Tai still))), and even the points I disagree on, I'm chalking up entirely to playstyle (e.g. the point against Snow here - I don't have a problem with people posting a lot early on, as long as they continue to post lots after that. More to read through, sure, but how many people read the jokevote on a reread?) HOWEVER. We then have this little gem - I can understand being annoyed about the whole Xanth/Tai thing, but what does that have to do with your case on Zenny? You actually barely commented on Xanth at all, with the main point you had being "It's likely one of them is scum, and Tai has done [scummy stuff here]" Seconding Tai ninja here too, with not reading the topic being a baaad move. It's bad for either Town or Scum, but still slightly scum-leaning on being an anti-Town thing to do. Still, not looking to push his lynch today based on what is, as far as I can see, a decent amount of good content and one bad post (-after- the arguments against him built up.)

Yeesh. I've spent about 3 of the 4 hours I've been awake on Mafia so far, and I'm only done with one summary. Posting this now, will get to the others soon.

[Cotigo]

I can't be bothered sitting down to respond to Makkotah, but I'll say this - your case against me revolves around the fact that I can't read. Shouldn't you be looking for players who are scummy rather than careless?

No, it's about misrepresentation.  You'd clearly read through/seen the two posts in question (linked to them in one of your posts building a case on me, after all), and kept asking the questions until I noticed this.  That in the most recent post before this last one the problem for some reason changed from "you keep your vote on Ciato even though you never mentioned her" to "you didn't change your jokevote at all" just makes it look worse.

You're asking me to hunt scum and I'm fucking doing it.  You look scummy and have offered nothing up to make me think otherwise.

[Xanth]

So you can work with it before the end of the day, go figure I am/was actually town (please do not doubt this, I'd look even more stupid post-game if I used this position as scum to mislead you on minor things for a few hours). Was vanilla (so far as I knew, at least) to start with, gained one shot doctor overnight, which I was going to use on myself tonight because scum were probably going to do things by the book. Oh well! Not sure if that was my level up or if there was a one-shot doc ability that passed to the person who gets protected. Probably the former, as cool as the latter sounds in principal. I am/was also a godlike character, which I figured as vanilla was there to be a trap claim, but maybe it was attached to something powerful at the top level.

Also lol Tai, I play your game for days and days and days and waste hours and lose so much sleep on a single point and you keep on finding ways on twisting that tiny stuff into maintaining the vote in the most frustrating ways possible, but minutes after a suicide vote you're certain I'm town? I knew we had different priorities, but this is just silly. You should never have sympathy for emotional bail outs like this, and I think Kilga's the only one to have had the correct reaction (other than for considering that it still might be scum-scum after the /ragequit, lol wut).

Oh, except for Excal. Short of something extraordinary, I would have made sure that I died by the end of the day anyway, but /ragequit or no /ragequit I didn't want to just PM drop out of nowhere and cause maximum pain to town. Excal is completely right to be stomping on drama queens in general, for sure, and if anything is being rather town-friendly with it, in that with the Noyndy mod kill also it's like town gets a bonus lynch, what with three for the price of one today. Again, really sorry Excal, none of the several cock ups in this game have been your fault in any way.


Ninja: as much as I'm cooling down, I probably shouldn't get involved much any more, but even though I threw out a {Makkotah, Snowfire, Metroid} team guess earlier (choosing Makkotah might have been emotionally charged unless I saw connections to the other two at the time (I can't remember), but I'm really not comfortable with the connection Snowfire and Metroid have, and also while I'm thinking about it they've both excused a vote or implied vote by 'gut' alone), Makkotah's in the right against QRou here even without the clarification. Carelessness is a scum-leaning action. Only a minor one, but 'I was careless' is no town excuse.

And oh, there are clearly three scum in this game. You don't need to think deeply about that, it's just really obvious. 13 players is the perfect number for three scum, and there hasn't been any crazy shifts in powers to even hint at two or four.

[Taishyr]

Yoshiken: Very bluntly I am reading Zenthor as town, his abrasiveness aside, and it would take a rather large case to move me off this. This is part of why I want to do the Rou/Zenthor interaction reread. You're correct in that I included people that, at the time, I wanted to either gauge reactions of or thought were Town. SnowFire/Kilga were included in the former (Kilga also kinda in the latter, I mean fuck I -always- think he's Town. ALWAYS. mutter. Which is why I'm trying to ignore what I'm thinking and look at him objectively which doesn't seem to be helping but. Right now yeah I peg Kilga as Town even trying to ignore my usual bias. I don't know if I'm failing at ignoring it or not.)

As for the Noyn scum, uh, frankly if he's scum he doesn't count. >_> For one, I'd expect scum to be able to get him to, you know, talk. And if not, he's not really playing as scum, is he? He's dead weight either way. He might be scum but then it's two/three scum + Noynscum and then, okay, whatever. And no, I didn't see any reason to delete myself in that commentary - to me, I'm my own best example and often enough I write for myself as well as for you guys. So, yeah. His base alignment's pretty irrelevant, if it's three scum+Noynscum then it's three scum. <_< (Ninja: Also, what Xanth said. 3 scum works fine with 13, 4 not so much)

Final thing: -yes-, I admit to having attempted to narrow focus to Rat and Alice some with this. I have my reasons for that, I want MC to respond before I go through my (probably shittastic, and it's probably gonna explode when we see the flips for the day, but I want to justify asking these questions) reasoning. Focusing on people outside Rat and Alice is perfectly cool and I don't mind it at all, but I badly wanted opinions on those two due to the chain of logic I was working on.


Ninja Xanth: Dude, I could quote your post and say the same, it's honestly felt that way with regards to the whole fight - just a flurry of "wait, what the hell is he- argh, okay, attempting to reply". And the vote switch was pending - I asked my question before your own vote removal, remember? I was highly considering being wrong even before you posted that, that cinched it in some ways mentally. So. Yeah, I feel like shit for my involvement in this, but honestly felt the same way on my end almost all the way through it.

[Tohsaka Rin]

No roleplay blurb right now. Sorry for the delay in votecount!

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (3): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat
Taitoro (1): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

A majority is reached by six people, still, I believe? Although nine actual Stars of Destiny still exist. Excal, back me up here.

Unless mistaken, and I can be due to faulty Europe time conversion, this day has 9 hours and 30 minutes left in it.

[Taishyr]

Sasarai, my vote is currently on Alice, and I have unvoted Xanth before that.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Saw the unvote but didn't think it necessary to adjust Xanth's voting to reflect it... will do so and I found your vote. Sorry, got lost in the walls of text. Catching up with everything right now so lemme do your vote and continue reading. I'll likely be around for deadline.

[Carthrat]

@Zenny: Yeah I'm kinda not wanting to vote you today anymore, the reactiveness on d1 isn't how he played out most of d2. Without really pointing to specific examples, he seems more vibrant and, well, dedicated to the scumhunting thing! ##Unvote: Zenthor

I am not especially certain of his points on Rou, though the guy's own OMGUSy response is quite troubling, he could effectively have written 'shut up, your points mean nothing!' and he'd have the same kinda post there. I can sorta buy the 'Rou is skimming' thing, at least, mainly because he did end up taking the easy way out by saying 'those posts suck I'm not going to cover them'. It seems a bit, I dunno, off-kilter to say something like that when your general modus operandi IS to cover each post (not one I'm especially fond of, but still.)

I am a bit leery of Tai at the moment but would rather see a confirmed Xanth flip than the guy's own words before going further down that track, since one's incoming (though I'm fairly certain he wouldn't lie at this point, who knows?)

I honestly don't have much to say about Alice; I didn't find his content earlier particularly offensive but lurking an entire goddamn day is just not on.

I'm feeling we'll have more luck persuing LaL at this juncture, and I'm too muddled to figure something else out. That's where my vote's gonna go. ##Vote: Alice, nobody is really 'active lurking' as far as I can tell, don't want to go after tai, still of two minds about the rou case and would rather persue this, various people are looking pretty okay and driving me into a spiral of fear because this is mafia and nobody is proven innocent until dead, etc. etc.

[Yoshiken]

Next up on the agenda for me is SnowFire. Day 2 opens up with this post which:
 * Dismisses Kilga's arguments against him as just being him. Thing is, Kilga's arguments are things that are scummy and not just playstyle choices, so just dismissing them as playstyle is like saying that Alice isn't scummy for lurking. I think he quite clearly is at this point. That said, he then defends against the arguments well.
 * Decent points against Alice. While I agreed with Alice on SnowFire dismissing parts of Rat's post, I'm able to see Snow's argument as well, and the other points here are good.
Seeing the next post, my response (as shown in my summary) was OH GOD WHAT. >.< Because, hey, let's tell scum who's been powered up so they can definitely pick out a target above the others. The only thing that had been claimed to that point was Tai having been targeted, confused, but with no ill effects. Claiming an openly positive benefit is just... wut. (Although this is somewhat worse on MC's side for claiming it, but both are bad! Scum-bad or just plain bad... hrm. What with Tai confirming off Rou, think it looks worse for Snow, although not sure that says much.) And then, for the rest of that post? We have some mild role speculation which, as far as I know (although I've not played S3), just fits in with the character. The rest of this post is decent enough. Clarifies the Alice case, since I'd mentioned it again, and agrees to be more concise. While I don't agree with him letting Rat off for the end-D1 stuff (stronger opinions from now on plzkthx) or his opinions on Rou here, the rest seems decent enough.
The next couple of posts don't contain much, other than an answer to why he pushed the possible active-lurk on Rat and requests for a counter-claim to MC, which... I'm yet to see? Doesn't clear her, but definitely pushes her towards the Town side a lot.
The next post mentions Rou potentially picking up the easiest case when he joins, which was MC. Except, uhh, Rou voted Zenny when he subbed in, only changing to MC on a reread. I'm not sure I see your point about him continuing to chase MC/Zenny on Day 2 - are you saying that if he'd suddenly switched off his D1 targets, it would have been better? Backs off Rat after this because of early-D2 - will take the Rat reread to say if this says anything about Snow - and moves towards XanthTai.
This post (and the five after it with only two other posts between)... Nothing too disagreeable there. That said, it's mostly on XanthTai, which, while understandable, most people have the same opinions on. (again, not sure on the comments on Rat until the reread of Rat. Will make sure to look over these posts again when I do that.) This post is mostly the same for exactly the same reason - most everything is a neutral or near-neutral stance. (Not a scumtell here, though - his stronger opinions are on Alice/Rou, and these posts don't cover those so much. Also gives his final standings at the end, so I'd say this isn't a bad post, at least.)

Really wanting to reread Zenny as well now. Just spotted another potential scumtell in (albeit minor, albeit kinda stupid and obvious) rolefishing but... urk. I have no clue where my vote is going at this stage, but it's almost certainly not Rou/Snow, at least. They've had enough good content to ignore them for today.

Right. Sasarai ninja count points out that, technically, Alice isn't modkilled yet. I've been pretty much assuming he is and, assuming he shows up now, I'd assume he's getting lynched. I'm gonna assume he's getting killed still and switch my vote over if he shows up. (Also, a quick glance through the latest posts shows that Rou unvoted and voted Zenny. Use Ctrl+F ##, maybe? ;) )
On that note, Excal says Alice is writing a post as he speaks. Man, at least some evidence of that would be nice. I don't want to see a deadline post and nothing else there - if this happens, you are 100% absolutely definitely getting lynched, regardless of circumstances. (Sure, some things can't be helped! Doesn't make it less suspicious.)

[Kilgamayan]

Something I want to toss out since it bugged me while I was trying to sleep last night. I think it was maybe Tai and Snow (and possibly more I don't remember exactly) that mentioned they liked what Yoshi had brought to the table today after a potentially spurious Day 1. What do you two honestly think of his Zenny vote? I first addressed the issues I had with it here but no one seemed to notice. Looking at it now, his vote is still there. Let's go back to his reasons for it, shall we?

However, the more pressing concerns are Snowfire and Zenny. Neither have produced much of anything that I like, but I feel Zenny is very effectively pulling off an active lurk here, so:

##Vote: Zenny

- Lesser point: Does anyone, specifically those that gave Yoshi credit for his cases today, think that the two Zenny posts Yoshi touched upon give Yoshi license to make the broad "Neither have produced most of anything I like" statement? Here are my thoughts on that matter, for quick reference, even though the post got linked above.

As best I can tell, he cherrypicks a couple of Zenny posts for his +/- stuff (the first of which, at least, gets overblown with the "everything" emphasis given the entire post is dedicated to responding to one person) and then makes the broad sweeping "(hasn't) produced much of anything that I like" combined with the active lurking accusation without doing a whole lot to substantiate either statement. I don't think the posts he highlighted properly support a don't-like-anything statement.

- Greater point: Does anyone at all think that Zenny could still be accused of active lurking at this point? I think he's played a fine Day 2 and has had plenty of relevant things to say, yet Yoshi's vote is still there. I realize Yoshi is playing the catchup game, but still, no comment whatsoever on the circumstances of his vote? Not liking this at all.

Xanth: General personal philosophy to not buy into ragequits until the person is actually removed from the chessboard. In your particular case, I had no guarantee you weren't going to turn around half a day later, cite you had calmed down (with help from the Tai unvote) and decide to pluck up and continue playing the game in the face of adversity. I put very little past scum in the way of that sort of thing because scum will play as dirty as possible if they think they can get away with it. Assuming, at this point, that what you said was all genuine, then sympathies for the agony you've gone through, but do understand that I have no inherent reason to believe that sort of thing is genuine as long as it comes from an unknown.

Cut by Yoshi kinda-sorta addressing the status of his vote. Took him long enough, but eh, at least there's something there.

[metroid composite]

IRL notes:
I'm about 30 hours behind in the topic (although ahead on my apartment and car shopping)--first priority is to read the topic.  I'll re-evaluate who to do a reread on there.  Presuming some townies die either during N2 or during the lynch, I should probably swap out with them at that time--better to make the switch when they're still following the topic than to do it half-way through Day 3 when I step on the plane to Atlanta.