Author Topic: What Games Are You Playing 2013? (Read 189224 times)

superaielman · « **Reply #175 on:** January 21, 2013, 03:48:05 AM »

Permadeath is an atrocious mechanic in single person games and I never find it to be acceptable. I am less and less tolerant of that as I get older. It's just another way to waste the player's time and artificially make the game longer. ToM does a fantastic job with fast, compelling gameplay otherwise, which is why I am sticking with it.

Anthony Edward Stark · « **Reply #176 on:** January 21, 2013, 04:38:13 AM »

Quote from: superaielman on January 21, 2013, 03:48:05 AM

Permadeath is an atrocious mechanic in single person games and I never find it to be acceptable.

There's tons of games where permanent unit death is acceptable. You just need to be able to procure more units.

Grefter · « **Reply #177 on:** January 21, 2013, 04:41:45 AM »

I assume you mean like single player stuff, then even then it really depends on implementation.

I kind of want to keep talking about this because it is a fascinating gameplay topic really, especially with the sides we fall on Super in that you tend to like your games a touch harder than I do (and like FE well enough) where I tend to be a pretty soft touch when wanting to be engaged as an entry level player. I don't want to really bog down WGAYP with big rants etc though, going to post a short bit in my discussion topic http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5699.msg151670.html#msg151670 if you want to rabble about it.

Edit - Do want to of course note, the design for permadeath in solo games vs multiple unit games does need to be approached from different directions (although can be worked around with readily available replacements in both cases).

Meeplelard · « **Reply #178 on:** January 21, 2013, 05:45:36 PM »

I'll chime in and say that Perma-deaths being an actual flaw is an execution thing and all that.

FE games, at least more modern ones, handle it well for example (especially since the addition of Casual mode, for entry level players. With the exception of "Bullshit Crits", FE games give you a sense of control. You can see enemy stats, see who will live, position characters to avoid it, heck, you can even see enemies Attack Radius, so you legitimately find out safe spots, and not get gimped unexpected terrain nonsense. It's not perfect, but often when you die in FE, it's your fault, not the game's; I say "often" because, again, there are some random factors that you can't help. I suppose you could argue "You shouldn't have changed that 1% Crit with someone who couldn't survive the blow!" but then there are cases where no one CAN legitimately survive it even at full HP (this is a rare, exceptional circumstance, I'm aware.)

X-Com, as noted, is another good case. Since everyone is a generic of sorts, that means every character you lose is replace-able to some degree. Losing a high level unit of course sucks, but not only are higher level units more durable in nature, there's nothing inherently special about them (besides Psychic y/n?), so it's lost ground that can be made up. It's a set back, depending on how many units you have, but a recover-able one.

Then we have FFT and TOPSP, where perma-death's exist, but there's a grace phase. Given the nature of the games, that's fine; sometimes you can't avoid taking loads of damage, and trying to 2nd guess the AI without being a complete nerd at the game isn't realistic, so at least when you hit 0 HP, you can still save the unit via Resurrection (also resets the gauge) or finishing the fight fast.

Tactics Ogre (original) and Hoshi, meanwhile? Examples of games pulling it off badly, and it detracting from the game. No real way to prevent it, if enemies bum rush one character, they can be dead, lots of praying the RNG doesn't screw you over, etc. They're clear cases where Perma-death was a very bad design decision (TO at least acknowledged it with the remake, as addressed above.)

AndrewRogue · « **Reply #179 on:** January 21, 2013, 07:53:28 PM »

Suiko series permadeath is best permadeath.

Grefter · « **Reply #180 on:** January 21, 2013, 08:37:41 PM »

Suiko Tactics actually has regular kind of SRPG permadeath but is wonky as fuck and really strange. Random chance for permanent death when characters die. Unless you are a plot character. From anywhere like 20% chance to 50% chance to die from memory. It is weeeeeird.

Luther Lansfeld · « **Reply #181 on:** January 21, 2013, 08:53:09 PM »

Suikoden Tactics's is goofy because it just makes you use people who can't die.

Speaking of permadeath...

Fire Emblem 10, no resets: Boyd and Shinon have been added to the list of the deceased, now I get to tackle another Dawn Brigade map~

AndrewRogue · « **Reply #182 on:** January 21, 2013, 09:45:06 PM »

Oh, no. I didn't mean SuikoTactics. That is shitty permadeath.

I meant the maingame Suikoden version of permadeath.

Meeplelard · « **Reply #183 on:** January 21, 2013, 10:28:17 PM »

Quote from: AndrewRogue on January 21, 2013, 09:45:06 PM

Oh, no. I didn't mean SuikoTactics. That is shitty permadeath.

I meant the maingame Suikoden version of permadeath.

Where characters can spontaneously perma-die in strategy battles because "Fuck you"?

Grefter · « **Reply #184 on:** January 21, 2013, 10:45:46 PM »

Or specific character didn't have enough of a certain stat (maybe) or equipment (maybe) or you did t pick the right dialogue option fast enough (maybe) during a plot event.

AndrewRogue · « **Reply #185 on:** January 21, 2013, 11:29:21 PM »

Yep. Better simulates the harsh mysteries of life and death in the world.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #186 on:** January 22, 2013, 02:03:53 AM »

In fairness to Suikoden Tactics though, the main characters are overall great characters you should be using anyway.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #187 on:** January 22, 2013, 02:10:53 AM »

Which just means the game ends up with shitty character balance, I guess.

Replayed MM3 on a whim after beating SFxMM, have moved onto playing F-Zero X on my old games kick. I'm kinda waiting around for Awakening at this point. Also, set a new record against DMD Mundus 2: 50% of his health! Go me.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #188 on:** January 22, 2013, 02:21:42 AM »

It's a suikoden game. You don't expect it to have character balance.

Well you could. But it would only end in disappointment.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #189 on:** January 22, 2013, 02:58:18 AM »

Well, that mechanic makes it sound like it has bad character balance by the standards of the series!

Wait. I take that back. One does not simply design a cast more unbalanced than Suikoden 1's.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #190 on:** January 22, 2013, 03:16:03 AM »

Somehow, they make a few permakillable characters (I think more than a few, even) worth using anyway. Nalleo, tiny destroyer of worlds, come forth.

Ranmilia · « **Reply #191 on:** January 22, 2013, 03:24:06 AM »

Knytt Underground.

Still playing this, bits at a time. After about 15 hours of messing around in the intro chapters and every secret bonus area I could find, I finally managed to put off my completionist tendencies enough to start getting into the meat of the game and exploring Chapter 3. My completionist tendencies were immediately punched in the gonads. This map is HOW big? For every quest, you have to choose only one of the fairies to handle it?! There's a Dark World with no map, no vision, time limits, and you have to spend limited consumables just to enter it?!?! Oh god oh god I don't dare do ANYTHING-

- but, the game is a lot more fun and engaging than I originally gave it credit for. I forgot to post yesterday but I was going to say "Ehn this game's all right but I'm not sure it's worth the price". Today I'm convinced it is.

The flaws that were bugging me are still there - bad physics on ball stuff, samey environments due to all the terrain being undetailed black, and no manual saves or suicide button making for long backtracks when you screw something up. But the world is designed so that they don't matter all that much. The puzzles are still clever and don't make you fight the controls (except in sadistic secret areas), the environments are a pleasure to experience even if a lot of them feel similar, and... okay, well, I hope there's going to be some sort of fast travel introduced at some point because this map is GIGANTIC, but it hasn't been too much of a pain to navigate yet. The music and ambiance is amazing and the game is just really, really fun to play.

So yeah, seconding Cid's recommendation, people should pick this up and give it a go.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #192 on:** January 22, 2013, 03:40:17 AM »

It's not really that the story characters are necessarily the best ones in the game (Lazlo excepted. He is pretty much inarguably the best character in the game, but that's why he's an optional secret character), so much as they're all very good and using a team composed entirely of them will still give you a balanced party. Some of the non-story characters do bring unique stuff to the table (Wendel's got ridiculous stats, Mitusba's variable innate is handy and she's far better than the story 2H sword user), but usually they're similar. Maybe a llittel better or a little worse, but not really too much different, except the story characters all join earlier so... you're probably already using someone in that role, excepting Lino who joins way late.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #193 on:** January 22, 2013, 03:43:03 AM »

Also, all of the archers except the endgame nameless non-star filler are unkillable. Because ST archers WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH.

Sierra · « **Reply #194 on:** January 22, 2013, 11:05:58 AM »

Alex: I told you you were playing it backwards, dammit! Also, I'm convinced it makes no difference which fairy you let talk aside from seeing different dialogue (but then again, there are still three blank quest slots in my menu and I've explored the entire map aside from this one five-square line I can't open up).

The Disorder is actually your means of fast travel, though it's kind of bewildering figuring out exactly where it's taking you. There is a map of sorts for the place (it's on the wall in a secret room) but you can't check it while you're in there and anyway it's kind of hard to know exactly where you are when entering the Disorder until you've spent some time wandering around in there. You can mostly just skip the place if it's too confusing. Fortunately, the only thing the place is actually required for (the secret ending) isn't too much of a problem--I managed to blunder through with just a vague notion that there were secret passages in the N/S/E/W walls I needed to find. Took maybe a third of my crystal stock? The game gives you a ton of those things over the course of the game.

The physics are imperfect, yeah, but it's fun anyway. And so goddamn pretty, aurally and visually.

Nitori · « **Reply #195 on:** January 22, 2013, 11:25:30 AM »

RF3: MC ATK with axe and 21 axe levels: 25

random little girl with oversized lollipop ATK: 192

I'm on the losing team

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #196 on:** January 22, 2013, 07:47:01 PM »

Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness 3- Finished. There's still the bonus campaign which I'll probably sit down and play in the next couple days but yeah.

This is a pretty natural evolution of Zeboyd's work, and putting PA's creative team behind the core story shores up the weakness both earlier games had nicely- the story actually ramps up rather than petering out as you go. Not so much that the story or humor has changed or improved drastically as it's more consistent; like, that thing where after the first couple dungeons in Cthulhu where it becomes a straight dungeon crawler and you stop really having party interaction. That's what's changed.

Gameplay of course is where you see the real evolution. Where BoDVII is Dragon Quest++++, and Cthulhu is PSIV with modern sensibilities, PA3 is Grandia with actual enemy design. Items are refined in a new way, where they regenerate after every battle but how many you can use and how powerful they are is influenced by findable/purchasable upgrades. The class system has potential but is held back a bit by the usual menu issues. While you can go into the menu and look at what class skills do, you have to have a class equipped to do it. So if a class you're not using gets a skill you either let it slide or fuck about with equipment to take a look. Nothing gamebreaking, just needless tedium to prove Zeboyd still has weird struggles with menus.

Looking at high 7, low 8 range. Will have to pull out the list to get a better feel for that.

Sierra · « **Reply #197 on:** January 22, 2013, 09:06:34 PM »

Romancing Saga 3: Trucking through Leonid's castle, goddamn this place is long, already burned through half my party resources and there's miniboss after miniboss and argh, another one? Well, the last couple weren't too hard, this shouldn't be--

*Yami almost completely massacres the party in a single round*

...You know, game, if you didn't want me to be here right now, you could've told me at the door.

So I went and did other stuff:

-Fishman is down. Holy hell plot bosses have a truckload of health in this game. He wasn't real threatening, mostly just a wall of HP. If he felt like spamming MT it could've been a problem, but fortunately he didn't. I've yet to find any castable MT healing, if such a thing exists in this game, so competent MT damage is automatically terrifying. This is kind of why I gave up on Aunas when I tried him first, much earlier in the game.

-Apparently Not!China is run by humorless authoritarians. Who would've guessed?

-Maximus was laughably feeble. Apparently he gets support once your whole party rejoins? He did not live long enough for that to occur. And wow that was a ridiculous haul for the most pathetic boss I've encountered so far. I'm guessing there's some gimmick to the Masquerade? Because 9 attack power is pretty uh. (I haven't trained anyone in epees anyway, so it hardly matters.) The Divine Tower is the architectural embodiment of futility, incidentally. I had to laugh. Supposed to be the center of a religious movement, filled with people wandering aimlessly around an endless series of unfurnished dead-end rooms. Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.

-Jesus, you guys weren't exaggerating, Ellen's a beast.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #198 on:** January 23, 2013, 02:30:46 AM »

Quote from: Ciddy-kins on January 22, 2013, 09:06:34 PM

Romancing Saga 3: Trucking through Leonid's castle, goddamn this place is long, already burned through half my party resources and there's miniboss after miniboss and argh, another one? Well, the last couple weren't too hard, this shouldn't be--

*Yami almost completely massacres the party in a single round*

...You know, game, if you didn't want me to be here right now, you could've told me at the door.

^_^

Quote from: Ciddy-kins

So I went and did other stuff:

-Fishman is down. Holy hell plot bosses have a truckload of health in this game. He wasn't real threatening, mostly just a wall of HP. If he felt like spamming MT it could've been a problem, but fortunately he didn't. I've yet to find any castable MT healing, if such a thing exists in this game, so competent MT damage is automatically terrifying. This is kind of why I gave up on Aunas when I tried him first, much earlier in the game.

The only MT healing you ever get is Shatter Staff from the Life Cane and Rune Staff, which, guess what, shatters it. Life Canes are also incredibly limited in amount. So um yeah. Also, the deal with Forneus is that Maelstrom is such a -dick- move. MT ID that deals considerable damage in a game where you have four-five shots -per playthrough- of MT healing? Seriously, game?

Quote from: Ciddy-kins

-Apparently Not!China is run by humorless authoritarians. Who would've guessed?

Bai Mei Niang isn't humorless!

Quote from: Ciddy-kins

-Maximus was laughably feeble. Apparently he gets support once your whole party rejoins? He did not live long enough for that to occur. And wow that was a ridiculous haul for the most pathetic boss I've encountered so far. I'm guessing there's some gimmick to the Masquerade? Because 9 attack power is pretty uh. (I haven't trained anyone in epees anyway, so it hardly matters.) The Divine Tower is the architectural embodiment of futility, incidentally. I had to laugh. Supposed to be the center of a religious movement, filled with people wandering aimlessly around an endless series of unfurnished dead-end rooms. Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.

Maximus is a -wuss-. OHNOES 4-5HKO PHYSICAL DAMAGE and his support is hilariously vulnerable to ID. Dimension Chop/Day Break make short work of it. Really, the true boss of that gauntlet is that fucking Red Dragon they drop on you when you reach the top of the tower.

Also, the Masquerade has the Awakening skill, which turns it into a 35 power greatsword, so it's a weapon you can use to quickly raise Epee levels (garnering considerable extra WP in the process, since WP growth depends entirely on your total weapon levels) and still get proper damage with great swords. It's nothing -impressive-, but it's there. Also, cookie points for the Talking Heads reference.

Quote from: Ciddy-kins

-Jesus, you guys weren't exaggerating, Ellen's a beast.

She's just quietly awesome like that. Are you raising her on Axes, Martial Arts or both?

Sierra · « **Reply #199 on:** January 23, 2013, 11:03:09 AM »

Just axes. Occasionally hammers because hey same proficiency, but eh, mostly axes. Haven't really messed with martial arts. Should probably try anything that boosts her TP because Demon King Axe. I don't want to use anything that doubles tech costs but shiny shiny numbers.

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Author Topic: What Games Are You Playing 2013? (Read 189224 times)