The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPG Stats Forum => Topic started by: Shale on August 27, 2008, 11:31:59 PM
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From OblivionKnight.
Yes, read it. Since there was discussion a while ago about PC stats, I'm posting them here for reference. Maybe I'll do something more to it later. All stats take at level 100, for all the temps and permanent PCs.
HP - Duh
STR - Physical Attack
VIT - Physical Defense
MAG - Magical Attack
SPR - Magical Defense
SPD - Speed
LUK - Luck
Squall
HP - 4187
STR - 47
VIT - 41
MAG - 45
SPR - 36
SPD - 37
LUK - 22
Rinoa
HP - 4181
STR - 67
VIT - 31
MAG - 63
SPR - 39
SPD - 36
LUK - 22
Quistis
HP - 3883
STR - 46
VIT - 30
MAG - 42
SPR - 34
SPD - 34
LUK - 21
Zell
HP - 4018
STR - 47
VIT - 33
MAG - 42
SPR - 27
SPD - 35
LUK - 20
Selphie
HP - 3680
STR - 45
VIT - 28
MAG - 49
SPR - 38
SPD - 37
LUK - 26
Irvine
HP - 3880
STR - 45
VIT - 31
MAG - 42
SPR - 28
SPD - 39
LUK - 21
Laguna
HP - 4148
STR - 48
VIT - 41
MAG - 46
SPR - 36
SPD - 37
LUK - 21
Kiros
HP - 3728
STR - 43
VIT - 31
MAG - 50
SPR - 41
SPD - 48
LUK - 23
Ward
HP - 4768
STR - 56
VIT - 44
MAG - 36
SPR - 30
SPD - 27
LUK - 14
Seifer
HP - 5823
STR - 48
VIT - 39
MAG - 45
SPR - 38
SPD - 45
LUK - 19
Edea
HP - 3777
STR - 41
VIT - 20
MAG - 55
SPR - 45
SPD - 31
LUK - 15
Bosses: taken at the highest level before the level cap.
Edea - Level 32
HP - 16000
STR - 13
VIT - 66
MAG - 118
SPR - 174
SPD - 24
Evade - 8
Spell List: Blizzaga, Demi, Esuna ( others? )
Fujin - Level 44
HP - 18200
STR - 110
VIT - 61
MAG - 99
SPR - 156
SPD - 41
Evade - 15
Spell List: Aero, Curaga, Full-Life, Tornado, Haste, Reflect ( more? )
Rajin - Level 44
HP - 22600
STR - 129
VIT - 132
MAG - 51
SPR - 12
SPD - 37
Evade - 4
Spell List: Thundaga, Protect, Shell ( more? )
Seifer - Level 45
HP - 34500
STR - 124
VIT - 125
MAG - 179
SPR - 145
SPD - 55
Evade - 2
Spell List: Firaga, Thundaga, Blizzaga, Aura, Dispel, Haste ( more? )
Adel - Level 46
HP - 51000
STR - 131
VIT - 110
MAG - 148
SPR - 136
SPD - 56
Evade - 2
Spell List: Firaga, Thundaga, Blizzaga, Quake, Ultima ( more? )
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From Super:
Some related stats.
Seifer- Fire Cross (No Mercy) 3x damage, hits all on the screen. Can be used at nearly full HP. Non-elemental.
Squall- Renzokuken 2-4x damage, ST. Chance of a follow up. (All are fairly weak, besides Lionheart.) Can be used at 35% life and below.
Seifer>Squall>>Rinoa, for best damage pre limit. Auto crits put the gunblade users ahead. Scaled, Seifer's Hyperion is about as strong as Lionheart.
EDIT: I'll put up stat averages in a bit.
A note: How you take unjunctioned stats and damage is your call. Unjunctioned stats tend to be unimpressive in game. How you scale them or treat them is.. yeah. I'm not touching that with a 50 foot poll.
Average HP= 3971
Average strength= 49.5
Average VIT= 32
Average SPR= 33
Average SPD= 36
Average LUK= 22
Physical damage = 653 (1633 kill point)
Weapon stats:
Irvine-Exeter +13
Rinoa-Shooting Star +17
Selphie-Strange Vision +13
Zell-Ehrgeiz +18
Quistis-Save the Queen +13
Squall-Lionheart +31
Boosts from utlimate weapons. *Shrug* As for the temps.. you can scale their weapons up, if you think it fits. Seifer has by far the best claim, as he's in your party at a time when all weapons give a 0 boost, and the fact that he uses improved version of Fire Cross each time you fight him.
Edea has the weakest claim, as she joins by the time you should have done some upgrading.
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Attack scores, from the Elf:
I should add in Attack scores, now that we have weapon bonuses and Strength.
Rinoa: 84
Squall: 78 (*1.5)
Zell: 65
Quistis: 59
Irvine: 58
Selphie: 58
Average: 67 (73 if you count Squall's crit bonus as *1.5)
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Renzokuken is 4-8 hits. How many Squall gets, as well as the odds of each finisher, are dependant on how 'critical' he is. That is, if he's barely low enough to Limit at all, he's most likely to get a 4 hit Renzokuken and not use a finisher, while if he's 1 Hp and Aura-ed, he'll almost certainly get a 7-8 hit and has (at a guess) a 1 in 4 for Lionheart.
Actually, Zell, Selphie, Irving, and Rinoa all have similar mechanics. Zell and Irving get more time the more critical they are, Selphie's odds of high end draws (triple Ultima/Meteor, The End) increases, and Rinoa has better odds of drawing Invincible Moon/Wishing Star.
I don't remember Irvine at the moment, but I know Zell ranges from 4 seconds to 12.
I personally average around .33 seconds when alternating punch rush and booya, meaning I'd get about 12 hits even with a minimum Duel. Needless to say, in Light or Middle anyway, I'd consider Zell getting any kind of Limit the end of the match...
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The real fun - limits! Thanks, Gourry.
I know jack about the mechanics of FF8 and its Limit system. Basically, if you're at 33% (I think) or so, you can get limit breaks (of course, freaks like Seifer get it earlier). They can also get limits easier if they're inflicted with statuses like Silence and Poison. Everyone's at level 100, and I mainly tested on Geezards (who suck, even at level 100). Crisis affects almost everyone. Squall's Renzokuken do more hits and have a higher chance of getting good finishers if he has high crisis. It also increases the amount of time Irvine and Zell have to do their limits. Selphie has a higher chance for strong spells like Ultima. Tell me if some of this junk doesn't look right.
Squall
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STR: 58 (89)
LionHeart: +31 STR
255% Hit Rate
Squall's Physical: 745 (1117)
Squall's Renzokuken: 1215 per hit.
4-8 hits, depending on Crisis level. Sometimes leads to a Renzokuken Finisher.
Renzokuken Finishers
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1. Rough Divide: 1797. ST
2. Fated Circle: 1414. MT
3. Blasting Zone: 1672 MT.
4. Lion Heart: 18x3712 = 66816
Zell
STR: 59 (77)
Zell's Physical: 572
Limit: Duel. Basically, Zell has 4.66, 6.66, 9, or 12 Seconds to pull off as many combos as he can. Booya/Heel Drop seems to be the best one for this.
Booya: 520
Punch Rush: 450
Mach Kick: 605
Heel Drop: 560
Dolphin Strike: 803
Meteor Strike: This is a percentage attack, but I don't know what it is, exactly.
Finishers:
Burning Rave: 1318 (Punch Rush, Mach Kick, Punch Rush, Heel Drop)
Meteor Barret: 1503 (Booya, Heel Drop, Mach Kick, Heel Drop, Booya, Punch Rush, Mach Kick)
Different Beat: 2081 (Booya, Heel Drop, Mach Kick, Heel Drop)
My Final Heaven: 1430 (Booya, Heel Drop, Mach Kick, Punch Rush)
I don't know that any of the finishers are worth doing, but it seems to me that getting to the finishers would be easy after alternating Booya/Heel Drop several times. I dunno if this is stronger than just continuing the sequence, though.
Quistis
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STR: 58 (71)
Physical: 460
Limit: Blue Magic.
At high crisis, Quistis' limits power up. She either needs incredibly low HP or a pretty debilitating status to achieve this, though.
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1. Lv? Death: Higher Crisis makes the ? smaller.
2. Degenerator: ID? Or is it like Black Dragon Grief?
3. Micro Missile: Does 50% of target's max HP. (75%)
4. Fire Breath: 1824 (2900)
5. Bad Breath: Sleep, Poison, Silence, Blind. VIT 0?, Confusion, Berserk, Slow, Stop, and a bunch of other crap come at high crisis. If she's really beat up, Bad Breath can also inflict ID.
6. White Wind: Heals damage equal to the difference of Quistis' current and max HP.
7. Homing Laser: 3299 (~7000)
8. Mighty Guard: Shell + Protect. Regen, Float, Haste, and Aura? at higher Crisis.
9. Shockwave Pulsar: 6845 (~11800)
Rinoa
STR: 78 (95)
Physical: 815
Limits
By teaching Angelo only Invincible Moon and Wishing Star, this gives a higher chance for Invincible Moon or Wishing Star. EDIT: This is false, not knowing a limit results in a weaker limit being used.
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Angelo Cannon: 2938
Angelo Strike: 4897
Invincible Moon: Invincible for 3 Turns
Wishing Star: 6191*8 = 49529
Counters: Rinoa has a 1/16 chance to use each of these after being hit by an enemy. Angelo Recover is checked first for the very tiny difference this makes.
Angelo Recover: Heals 62.5% max HP, self
Angelo Rush: 1378
Selphie
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STR: 57 (70)
255% Hit Rate
Selphie's Physical: 465
Slots: This allows Selphie to cast a large repertoire of spells 1-3 times. She has lots to choose from, but obviously, the better damage spells like Ultima and The End are rare. Useful stuff like Full-Life and the statuses are pretty common.
Ultima: ~2500
Flare: ~1200
Holy: ~1200
Meteor: 3300, Hits 10 times for ~330. Higher magic defense will null this damage.
Drain: Takes ~500 HP away from an enemy.
Element-Aga- ~700
Aura: Gets Limits easier.
Full-Life: Full Healing + Status healing.
The End: Dead.
Dispel, Haste, Protect, Shell.
Statuses:
Death, Berserk, Blind, Zombie, Sleep, Pain (Silence and Poison), Stop (rare), Silence, Meltdown (0 VIT)
Irvine
STR: 57 (70)
I tested on a different enemy (screwy disk), so this may not be totally consistent with the rest of the cast.
Physical: 490
Normal Shot: 400x6 = 2400 (sometimes 5 shots)
Dark Shot: 345*6 = 2070. Causes Blind, Silence, Poison, and Silence.
Fire Shot: 960*4 = 3840
Demolition: 1500*3 = 4500
Quick Shot: 170*15 = 2550
Armor Shot: 1960*3 = 5880
Pulse Shot: 3000*4 = 12000
At high crisis, the time Irvine gets for Shot is almost tripled.
Normal Shot: 400*17 = 6800
Flame: 960*11 = 10560
Demolition: 1500*7 = 10500
Quick Shot: 46*165 = 7820
Armor Shot: 1960*7 = 13720
Pulse Shot: 3000*7 = 21000
Temporary Characters
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Seifer
STR: 60 (77)
Hyperion: +17 (scaled)
255% Hit Rate
Seifer's Physical: 580 (870)
No Mercy: 2320
Seifer seemed to get Limits 40% of the time when he was near full health. Naturally, this is higher when he is at lower health.
Edea
STR: 61
No Weapon
Physical: 373
Limit: Sorcery
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Ice Strike: 5106
TEH LAGUNA TRIO!!1
Average weapons are probably a little too high for them (hell, it's higher than some other ultimates), but I'm willing to cut Laguna and friends a little slack somehow.
Ward
STR: 72
Physical: 500
Limit
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Massive Anchor: 3970
Laguna
STR: 62
Physical: 380
Limit
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Desperado: 2740
Man With the Machine-Gun: 20*9999 = 199980
OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOGMOGMGOMGOMGOGM!
*gets shot*
Kiros
STR: 56
Physical: 317
Limit
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Blood Pain: 2378
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PC Seifer notes. Taken at level 10.
HP:
Seifer: 812
Squall: 616
Zell: 627
Quistis: 605~
Speed:
Squall: 21
Zell: 21
Quistis: 21
Seifer: 18
(Basically, speed tiebreaks)
Vit:
Seifer: 8
Squall: 8
Zell: 7
Quistis: 6
Spr:
Seifer: 10
Squall: 7
Quistis: 7
Zell: 5
Damage:
Seifer: 93
Squall: 78
Zell: 60
Quistis: 58
No Mercy: 280
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And now, bosses! from Dhyer.
I’ll in better defense info and PC damages later.
Half Junctioned is the HP number if I had half the spells.
All Statuses are innately 100% accurate barring resistance. I personally factor some resistance into the hit rates.
Bosses seem to either be about 25% below or above your average PC level. I take the average as their DL form.
Big giant note: FF 8 speed is not linear. I believe that the speed system resembles FF 6, where there is a base number added onto the actual speed score, and that sum is linear. I believe that FF8's base number is between 20 and 30.
Edea 1
LVL 13/19
HP 4500/6700
Speed: About 21, About Average Defense, Good MDef
Status Immune
PC HP about 1520 (1180 Half Junctioned), 22.67 Speed
Thundara/Fira/Blizzara- 385 (375/395)
Astral Punch- 35 (25/45) (Fear)
Dispel
Raijin 2
Lvl 16/22
7600 (HP 6400/8800)
Speed: 13, Good Defense, Next to no Mdef.
Absorbs Lightning, Weak to Poison. 40% Blind, 80% Silence, 40% Sleep, 40% Slow, 60% Drain, 0% Gravity Resistance. Immune to all others statuses.
PC HP about 2150 (1680 Half Junctioned), Speed 22.33 (Yes, it goes down. Blame Selphie)
Attack- 300 (250/350)
Raijin Special- 670 (550/790)
Hi Potion- Heals 1000, at Low HP, OPB?
Fujin 1 (Only listing this for possible Raijin HP interp. She never wants this form. Its’ damage is pathetic and it can’t Sai until low HP).
LVL 16/22
5700 (4800/6600 HP)
Seifer 2
LVL 19/27
7900 HP (6700/9100 HP)
Speed: Around 51, Good Defense, Very Good Mdef
20% blind, 20% silence, 30% sleep, 0% poison, 0% gravity resistance. Immune to everything else. Weak to the Poison Element.
PC HP: 2789 (2000 Half Junctioned), Speed: 22.83
Attack- 330 (275/385)
Fira- 225 (200/250)
Demon Slice- 920 (750/1090)
Edea 2
LVL 19/27
11500 HP (9500/13500 HP)
Speed: Either 23 or 24, Average Defemse, Very Good Mdef
20% Blind, 20% Sleep, 10% Slow, 0% Drain, 0% Gravity Resistance. Immune to all other statuses.
PC HP: 2789 (2000 Half Junctioned), Speed: 22.83
Maelstorm- Halves current HP and adds Curse 100% (Seals Limits) (90-95%)
Death- 100% (Although I see it as 90-95% due to resistance)
Slow- Slows ATB Bar 100% (90-95%)
Silence- 100% (90-95%)
Reflect- Lasts about 10 of her turns
Dispel- Dispel Positive Statuses
Blizzaga- 500 (475/525)
Thundara/Fira- 312 (275/350)
Raijin 3 437/484
LVL 21/31
15400 (13400/17400 HP)
Speed: 34, Above Average Defense, Next to no Mdef.
Absorbs Thunder, Weak to Poison, 40% blind, 80% silence, 40% sleep, 40% slow, 60% drain, 0% gravity resistance. Immune to all other statuses.
PC HP: 3370 (2370 Half Junctioned), Speed: 43.5 (Slows are easy as hell to get). Note that this is a Half Junction.
Physical- 375 (280/470)
Aura- Doubles attack power, lasts about 2 turns on avg (I’ve seen it at between 1 and 3)
Raijin Special- 900 (700/1100)
Flame Punch- 780 (610/950)
Fujin 2 591/661
LVL 21/31
12800 HP (11300/14300 HP)
Speed: 36 or 37, Below Average Def, Very good MDef.
Absorbs Wind, Weak to Poison, 60% blind, 50% sleep, 60% slow, 30% drain, 0% gravity resistance. Immune to all other statuses.
PC HP: 3370 (2370 Half Junctioned), Speed: 43.5 (Slows are easy as hell to get). Note that this is a Half Junction.
Haste- Ups Speed. Likely 1.5x. Possibly 2x.
Meteor- 1500 (1300/1700)
Regen (Heals 5% at set interval)
Slow- Lowers Speed, 100% accuracy (I see it as 80%)
Pain- Inflicts Silence, Poison, and Blind 100% (80%)
Metsu- 360 (260/460)
Tornado- 350 (310/390)
Zan- 205 (160/250)
Sai- HP->1
Confuse- Inflicts Confuse 100% (80%)
Adel
LV 22/32
32,000 HP average
Speed: 47, Averagish Defense, Averagish Spirit.
Status Immune
PC HP: 3370 (2370 Half Junctioned), Speed: 43.5 (Slows are easy as hell to get). Note that this is a Half Junction.
Meteor- 2250/2600
Energy Bomber- 625/950 Physical
Ultima- 2100/2300
Flare- 600/730
Quake- 1300/1450
Holy- 675/800
Ultimecia
My personal average HP was about 7700.
Ulti 1
22000 HP, Slower than unjunctioned PCs (I want to say her speed is between 16-20).
Maelstorm- Halves HP and inflicts Curse 100%
Double- Allows for Doublecasting
Tornado- 670 Wind All
Quake-
Holy- 950 Holy
Fir/Thun/Blizzaga- 650 Fire/Thunder/Ice
Bio- 550 Poison Damage+ Poison 100% (10% off a turn)
Meltdown- 600 Magical Damage+Reduce Defenses
Dispel
Greiver
61700 HP
Physical- 500 Physical Damage
Draw Spell- Draw 1 random spell and cast it
Destroy Spell- Destroy one type of spell
Triple- Allows for Triplecasting
Flare- 950 Magical Damage
Doom- Inflicts Doom; Counts down from 24, and receives death at 0.
Pain- Inflicts Poison, Silence, and Darkness
Shockwave Pulsar- 6000 Magical Damage All; Has a Charge Time
UltiGriever Whole
87000 HP (together with Ultigreiver damaged)
GF Killer- Auto kills any GF
Summon Helix- Summons up to 2 Helix. Helixs counter attacks against themselves for 500 damage. They may charge up spell damage or may be needed for the crappiness that is GA
Flare- About 1000 Magical Damage
Holy- About 1000 Holy Damage
Dispel
Great Attractor- 1600 Physical Damage All; Has charge time
UltiGreiver Damaged
Physical- 500 Physical Damage
GF Killer
Tornado- About 1800 Wind Damage All
Quake- About 1950 Earth Damage All
Ultima- About 3000 Magical Damage All
Final Ultimecia
135400 HP (11000 HP for the lower half),
Physical- 500 Physical Damage
Hell's Judgement- HP->1 All
Destory Spell- Destroy one type of spell
GF Killer
Dispel
Flare- 600 Magical Damage
Holy- 600 Holy Damage
Apocalypse- 5200 Magical Damage All; must be drawn from her lower half, which becomes available at about 50% HP; May have an extra charge time.
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Trips' Seifer 4 notes:
Seifer 4 notes:
This is taken against a party with an party of Squall(Level 52), Zell(Level 45), and Irvine(Level 40).
HP: 28,200
Level: 32
He used a simple slash attack, which hit an unjunctioned Squall for 700ish damage(44 vit), which would be a high 7HKO to Squall's 4,249 HP. He uses this 99% of the time. The only other attack I managed to get was a Firaga, which hit for about the same damage.
As for his durability, an attack from the Lionheart dealt about 1,800 to 2,000ish damage junctioned. A Renzokukan would probably be a 2HKO unjunctioned, and would off him with any decent spell junctioned to strength. Irvine, my weakest character, dealt about 700 damage with a basic physical.
The main thing about him is his speed, which is damned impressive. He managed to keep trading turns with an Auto-Hasted party, and was often double-turning people sans Haste. With a completely unjunctioned party this would definitely make him much more difficult to defeat.
I'm unsure whether or not we should let him have this form, as Gilgamesh showed up in 5 or 6 turns and automatically ended the battle. I think pretty much everybody can get Odin at this time without any trouble, and with those Triple's that Odin gives(add in the fact that you can just sit there and Draw while he does nothing and things become even more ominous for Seifer) he dies quite fast.
Ranking him on this form would probably give a nice Middle. He's fast and can pile up the damage against slow or frail opponents, but anybody with a shred of durability and damage is more than enough to handle him. He has some magic versatility, I guess, which would allow him to exploit a Fire Weakness.
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Eh sorry to cause a ruckus, I've noticed that the FF8 characters are... really bad. (mostly light cept for a middle and a heavy)
Why is Squall a heavy over Irvine and Zell? They do massive damage with their limits. That could be useful in DL... right? Sure he has a CHANCE at lionheart (how do you guys take that into account? Is it automatic?)
Assuming Irvine has pulse ammo, he can do a massive amount of damage as well. And Zell, ignoring the MASSIVE exploit involving Duel, he does some good damage.
Rinoa stats own, and invincible moon and Wishing star rock. (again, how do you deal with chance?)
Also, can't Quistis, you know Degenerate everything on site?
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Squall has 255% Accuracy (thus never misses) and 100% Crit Rate (thus does more damage.) Generally, a Limit tends to yield a win for an FF8 PC, but the issue is that getting said Limit has issues, considering its a specific threshold and if you can avoid it, the FF8 PC is beat.
Rinoa's invincibility is generally a nonfactor cause its completely random and too small a chance to kick in. Quistis' Degenerator is just typical instant Death; it fails on bosses, and Shockwave Pulsar isn't that special by Limit stands in terms of damage.
In any event, Squall himself has issues, but they're not QUITE as bad as the rest of the cast, due to his Auto Crits and how he gets around evasion (Selphie gets around evasion too, but does much less damage.)
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Just curious, but I didn't know that Squall got around evasion?
I'm guessing Selphie does this with Magic, but I honestly don't know the mechanism for this and the stat topic doesn't seem to list it.
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Both have evade-ignoring weapons.
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255 accuracy means you always hit, no exceptions ever. This is true whether it comes from the weapon itself (every Gunblade, plus Selphie's ultimate) or you somehow manage to junction your hit stat up.
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Why is Squall a heavy over Irvine and Zell?
I should further note that Squall was originally a Middle. He actually upgraded to get into Heavy (so its not like there were two tiers of difference originally). Most likely, he was originally ranked as a low Middle due to evade ignoring + auto critical. Irvine and Zell have always been light however since they have neither of those perks.
They do massive damage with their limits. That could be useful in DL... right? Sure he has a CHANCE at lionheart (how do you guys take that into account? Is it automatic?)
Meeple already touched upon this. Limits are indeed quite useful - IF the PC can get it. Generally speaking, PC limit threshold in FF8 requires a maximum of 33% of MHP (Seifer being the exception) for them to be used. This means anybody who can solidly 3HKO or higher, status with something crippling (like Sleep), have buffs/backlogged damage to boost their damage can easily get around it. Typically speaking, a competent dueller can get through it without much trouble. Since until they hit that limit range, they are just PCs with an attack that deals averagish damage, no thanks to FF8's stat curve being so miniscule.
As for Lionheart, it will probably never come up to be important. Especially now that he is in heavy. It's a 25% chance, if you assume all finishers as equal chance, which means that 75% of the time, he will trigger a non-Lionheart finisher. I seriously doubt anything can survive 4 Renzokukens or let Squall get off 4 Renzokukens, so it's more or less a non issue.
Also, can't Quistis, you know Degenerate everything on site?
If a PC lets her get it, sure. Bosses though in FF8 are typically immune. Only Oilboyles can be Degenerated and even then, they appear as random monsters later on.
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On the topic of Degenerator, I'll point out that it isn't just typical ID. It works on enemies that are otherwise completely death-immune, so I'd be inclined to say that it works on any non-boss characters, regardless of death immunity.
Also, wondering what the method of dealing with "The End" is. I mean, if everyone allowed it instantly, Selphie would beat anything that wasn't undead, but I'm guessing people allow it in some form. Some figures on odds of spells appearing would be good~
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On the topic of Degenerator, I'll point out that it isn't just typical ID. It works on enemies that are otherwise completely death-immune, so I'd be inclined to say that it works on any non-boss characters, regardless of death immunity.
Also, wondering what the method of dealing with "The End" is. I mean, if everyone allowed it instantly, Selphie would beat anything that wasn't undead, but I'm guessing people allow it in some form. Some figures on odds of spells appearing would be good~
I allow Selphie to use it if her opponent is extremely slow...
So... uh... she gets against Cyan if he tries to charge up for QuadraSlice. Anything faster than that and I'm wary.
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On the topic of Degenerator, I'll point out that it isn't just typical ID. It works on enemies that are otherwise completely death-immune, so I'd be inclined to say that it works on any non-boss characters, regardless of death immunity.
Eh, I'd just make it check against FULL status immunity (including ID if the game has that). If you immune EVERYTHING, you immune Degenerator. If you miss ANYTHING well too bad.
I mean, saying it works on only PCs is kind of silly because you have no proof that it even DOES work on PCs in-game. You just know it doesn't work on bosses, but works on all random enemies. Maybe it just works on random enemies and that's it?
I allow Selphie to use it if her opponent is extremely slow...
So... uh... she gets against Cyan if he tries to charge up for QuadraSlice. Anything faster than that and I'm wary.
Still only works if Cyan actually does this when Selphie's at low HP. You should hype it against AUGST instead.
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For purposes of simplicity I tend to assume Selphie goes for Fullcure in the DL. It's a rigged effect, taking some of the head-trauma out of her matches, but not obscenely rare like Rapture/The End (at endgame, it actually tends to be more common than any other given outcome, is my experience). Though certainly against the likes of Mint or Augst she can stall for The End if she wants (not that she NEEDS to, Fullcure beats them fine.)
On the note of Squall > Cast, the other thing to keep in mind is that Lionheart is a full upgrade better than everyone else's best weapons (+31 strength vs +24 or so, as I recall), so he... should has an edge even without auto-crit. Not a huge one but... base strength is such a minute spread outside Rinoa that it's enough.
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On the topic of Degenerator, I'll point out that it isn't just typical ID. It works on enemies that are otherwise completely death-immune, so I'd be inclined to say that it works on any non-boss characters, regardless of death immunity.
Eh, I'd just make it check against FULL status immunity (including ID if the game has that). If you immune EVERYTHING, you immune Degenerator. If you miss ANYTHING well too bad.
I mean, saying it works on only PCs is kind of silly because you have no proof that it even DOES work on PCs in-game. You just know it doesn't work on bosses, but works on all random enemies. Maybe it just works on random enemies and that's it?
I allow Selphie to use it if her opponent is extremely slow...
So... uh... she gets against Cyan if he tries to charge up for QuadraSlice. Anything faster than that and I'm wary.
Still only works if Cyan actually does this when Selphie's at low HP. You should hype it against AUGST instead.
Umm, Degenarator DOES work on PC's!!!
(From some enemies)
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PC stands for player/party controlled character. So unless Degenerator worked on Seifer and Edea when fighting them (who are sometimes player controlled/in the party) we don't really have a basis for this. Perhaps you're thinking of something else?
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It doesn't work on them normally, but it does while they're in your party?
Well I tried. I suppose all of the insta kill moves, break and the like are banned anyway...
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For purposes of simplicity I tend to assume Selphie goes for Fullcure in the DL. It's a rigged effect, taking some of the head-trauma out of her matches, but not obscenely rare like Rapture/The End (at endgame, it actually tends to be more common than any other given outcome, is my experience). Though certainly against the likes of Mint or Augst she can stall for The End if she wants (not that she NEEDS to, Fullcure beats them fine.)
On the note of Squall > Cast, the other thing to keep in mind is that Lionheart is a full upgrade better than everyone else's best weapons (+31 strength vs +24 or so, as I recall), so he... should has an edge even without auto-crit. Not a huge one but... base strength is such a minute spread outside Rinoa that it's enough.
FF8 Strength has a quadratic effect on damage, so that extra power is pretty significant. Everyone besides Squall and Rinoa 4HKOs at best in the DL, which along with limits being difficult to access is what makes them so bad in the DL.
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Degenerator is no different than, say, Phantasy Star 4's Negatis. It's instant death. It makes a different check than the normal instant death spell (Death in FF8's case, Vol/Diem/Eliminate in PS4's), but it's still clearly making a check, and I'm inclined to see ID immunity from games with only one type of ID cover it. Does mean it hits Demi/Wren though (not that either can't blow past it).
It's moot since Shockwave Pulsar overkills things anyway. All the non-Selphie permanent FF8 PCs pretty much win instantly if they do get a limit in the majority of circumstances (unless you see their non-limit damage as beyond atrocious). And even Selphie probably wins near-instantly against most Lights either via one of the power spells (multiple Meteor/Ultimas are sick) or a Full-Cure loop. Basically, you beat FF8 by not giving them limits (which unfortunately for FF8 is easy).
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I mean, saying it works on only PCs is kind of silly because you have no proof that it even DOES work on PCs in-game. You just know it doesn't work on bosses, but works on all random enemies. Maybe it just works on random enemies and that's it?
IIRC Degenerator is basically Remove/Eject but gives EXP. Tonberries are immune to Degen (pretty sure on this). Flip side, in the Laguna arcs, Gespers can use Degen and they hit through ID immunity fine (100 Deaths doesn't stop it), so there is proof that it his PCs (who are death immune to boot). Point of the matter is (and what I was getting at), most bosses are immune to eject in FF8 outside of Oilboyles, who are later random enemies. So trying to argue that Degen > bosses is a pretty bad argument.
Not that Quistis needs Degen (see NEB). Shockwave Pulsar dealt like what? 7k damage+? Considering the average damage curve is like 600 or something, that's more than enough >_>.
EDIT NOTES:
Some other mechanical notes that I thought I would correct...
- Squall's Lionheart limit break actually deals 17 hits, not 18. Still doesn't matter. Each hit is 4.5x a regular physical (no crit), so it is still massive overkill.
- Seifer can actually access his limit break at 90% MHP if he is alone instead of 40%.
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Out of curiosity, I did some stat topic math to see what the FF8 characters could do if they were allowed to start with reduced HP in limit range (at 33%).
Most of them become much, much better, despite being glass cannons.
Average for reliable first-turn damage:
Most Reliable First-Turn Damage
21860 Squall Renzokuken (+ avg finisher)
13461.25 Rinoa Angelo Limits (avg)
12960 Zell Booya/Heel Drop loop (12x)
12000 Irvine Pulse Shot*4
9900 Selphie Triple Meteor
6845 Quistis Shockwave Pulsar
4860 Squall Renzokuken (no finisher)
2938 Rinoa Angelo Cannon
1200 Selphie Flare
6800.5 Average
Average Damage of Best First-Turn Possible Outcomes (Squall, Rinoa, Selphie using their alternate values)
12837.7 Average
So Rinoa ends up being amazing as her first-turn limits are a choice between 3 turns of invincibility or massive overkill damage. Thanks to Angelo Cannon's higher chance of activating instead of her decent Limits, she's not as awesome as advertised. Still, a 50% chance to win any match is a decent Heavy.
Squall's damage drops notably as apart from his 25% chance for Lionheart, he does around 6000 damage per turn and is still made of glass.
Zell and Irvine pick up 2HKO damage for all the good it does them.
Selphie, Quistis, and Irvine become glass-status-whores, with Irvine having notably fewer options.
Against the status-immune, Selphie and Quistis have some buffing options.
Also, Selphie has the interesting strategy of Aura + FullHeal to become the only FF8 character able to use her limit while not in OHKO range. Still probably Light, though a good one.
Squall hates this. Rinoa becomes Godlike Heavy. Quistis and Irvine become Middles. Selphie is more interesting. And Zell... becomes a different flavor of Light.
None of the Temps want this at all.
Note that I don't see it this way personally, but was just curious about the results.
Also, Irvine's Status options appear to have Silence listed twice. Was there supposed to be a different status listed in place of that second Silence?
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It doesn't work on them normally, but it does while they're in your party?
Well I tried. I suppose all of the insta kill moves, break and the like are banned anyway...
No, no, no it was my mistake =D
Thanks for that Djinn, interesting read. It's the type of thing that I work with though the idea of Rinoa in Godlike gives me psyducks =D
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Uh...
Rinoa's Limits don't work that way. She always has Angelo Cannon, IIRC. When she learns a new Limit, the chance of Angelo Cannon decreases, and its replaced with the new limit; there's no downside to learning more limits, as all it does, IIRC, is just lower the chance of Angelo Cannon with a higher chance, and the chance of the new limits never decreases.
So its like if she had no new limits, 100% Angelo cannon. A new one? 25% chance of a new one, 75% chance of angelo Cannon. 2 new ones? 50% chance of Angelo Cannon, 25% each of the other two, and so forth.
Rinoa's damage should be the average of all her limits, if you're doing things that way. So it means Wishing Star + Invincible Moon (which would translate to 0 here) + Angelo Cannon + Angelo Strike. This should be MUCH stronger than her physical.
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Limits
By teaching Angelo only Invincible Moon and Wishing Star, this gives a higher chance for Invincible Moon or Wishing Star.
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Angelo Rush: 1378 (seems to be a counter as well)
Angelo Cannon: 2938
Invincible Moon: Invincible for 3 Turns
Wishing Star: 6191*8 = 49529
I was just working off of what the topic said, I never used Rinoa in FF8, so I don't know anything about her limits.
What's Angelo Strike?
The reason I didn't include Rinoa's limits in the averages initially was that her damage there was unreliable. If she always has Angelo Cannon and it's rigged in favor of it... I suppose I could use -that- as her 'most reliable' first-turn damage. It's similar to Selphie... she has a decent chance of getting Ultima or Triple-Flare or something, but I just included the best common outcome. Probably doesn't change things much?
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Angelo Cannon is her default Limit. She always has it.
Angelo Rush I think is a particular move that kicks in randomly. She has a few of these, like one of which involves Angelo coming in and reviving a random PC (useless in the DL, of course.) The ones that matter kick in too rarely to care.
Angelo Strike, I believe its called, is just ST damage which is higher than Angelo Cannon (which is MT damage, IIRC.)
Either way, the stat topic is a bit out of date; the claim of teaching Rinoa less limits ups her chances of the better ones is in fact false; it just uses Angelo Cannon if you try to use an unlearned Limit, apparently.
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I also don't see any indication of what crisis level was used for testing here. It doesn't really matter if you assume they have to start at full HP because getting a limit at all = win for anyone besides the temps and Selphie, and Selphie can do so as well most of the time. The exact figures become pretty important if you're actually trying to make an average out of them, though.
Also bear in mind that they'd have to come in at low HP to access a limit, which makes them very prone to dying from any above average speed dueller. I wouldn't take that average literally even if I did allow them to enter matches at low HP, often times they just won't be able to afford to do that.
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I also don't see any indication of what crisis level was used for testing here. It doesn't really matter if you assume they have to start at full HP because getting a limit at all = win for anyone besides the temps and Selphie, and Selphie can do so as well most of the time. The exact figures become pretty important if you're actually trying to make an average out of them, though.
Also bear in mind that they'd have to come in at low HP to access a limit, which makes them very prone to dying from any above average speed dueller. I wouldn't take that average literally even if I did allow them to enter matches at low HP, often times they just won't be able to afford to do that.
The topic says that the Limit testing was done at 33% HP, and that figures in parentheses were at "High Crisis Level".
And yes, I'm aware that they all are easily one-shotted if they enter a battle at this health level. It means they probably -must- be faster than their opponent for this to do them any good.
I personally don't think I'd let them start a battle at this health level, but it was interesting to see. Also, this stat topic apparently needs updating.
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You could just use those averages for matches they start in at low HP, and the other one for when they don't. That probably makes more sense than letting them start at low HP and then always using the normal averages.
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And I'm back!
So I get why Squall is the best, and why Seifer is the second best.
But I will not rest until Quistis is in mid. Go Quistis!
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You might want to see if a physician will prescribe you some Ambien, then.
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-_-
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Actually, having burnt more time into FF8 from doing the solo twink challenge, I think the limit range for FF8 fighters is actually 45% MHP and below. Although at 45% MHP, the chances of the limit appearing are very slim. 4400/9877 HP Squall CAN get limits against Tri-Faces for example.
On the other hand, even if you allow the turn spamming (something you can freely do in game) and place minute drawbacks, I would suggest you place a turn penalty on the character IF you do allow them to get access to a limit at 45% MHP. Something like each turn that you pass is worth 1/3 of a turn or something. This is very akin to what happens in-game if you try to get a limit break on the borders of crisis.
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Characters get a crisis boost in-game if they have dead teammates, which raises the mHP level that they can get limits at. I wouldn't allow that in the DL, myself, as it doesn't apply in cases where you have less than 3 PCs.
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Ah, that would certainly explain it. Since as long as I recall, base crisis level was already 33% MHP.
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Average damage using only physicals: 653. aka the most generous view of FF8 damage possible. Kill point of 1632. Squall 2HKOs, Rinoa borderline 2-3HKOs (as does Seifer), Zell has a very low 3HKO, the other permanent PCs have mid 4HKOs (as does Ward), Laguna and Edea have 5HKOs, Kiros has a 6HKO.
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The topic was messy, so I compiled it. Also, added in GFs for the main PCs to give you something to compared GF Squall to. No actual testing was done, all info gathered from this topic and this FAQ: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197343/50775
Note that non-Squall claims to GFs are VERY weak, so please don't take them seriously unless you just really like handing out skillsets based on weak claims (like me! Yay full-cast-medium WA5! FF6 Espers for everybody!)
EDIT: Characters have unique starting compatibilities with each of the GFs. If you allow GFs by this method, the main PCs are listed here with their highest-compatibility GFs (Except in Rinoa's case, who still has Leviathan due to Selphie having a better claim to Rinoa's top GF).
Final Fantasy 8 - Averages up top (Permanent PCs only, no Junctioning)
Average HP= 3971
Average strength= 49.5 (w/ weapon bonus: 67 (73 if you count Squall's crit bonus as *1.5))
Average VIT= 32
Average SPR= 33
Average SPD= 36
Average LUK= 22
Average damage using only physicals: 653
Junctioned Damage Average: 2270.5 (2764.5 w/ Zell's Str Bonus)
(7022 Zell's Physical w/ Str Bonus)
4058 Zell's Physical
2235 Squall's Darkside
2185 Rinoa's Leviathan summon
1897 Quistis' Shiva summon
1892 Irvine's Quezacotl summon
1356 Selphie's Siren summon
Junctioned averages!
Average HP: 5673
Average VIT: 40
Average SPR: 61
Average SPD: 36
Squall Leonhart
HP - 4187
STR - 47
VIT - 41
MAG - 45
SPR - 36
SPD - 37
LUK - 22
Lionheart +31 (255 HIT, ITE)
Squall's Physical: 745 (1117 critical trigger)
Squall's Renzokuken: 1215 per hit.
4-9 hits, depending on Crisis level. Sometimes leads to a Renzokuken Finisher. (23.8%)
Renzokuken Finishers (1 in 4 chance of selecting any of the following.)
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1. Rough Divide: 1797. ST
2. Fated Circle: 1414. MT
3. Blasting Zone: 1672 MT.
4. Lion Heart: 18x3712 = 66816
Your mileage may vary, but if you allow Gfs, Squall has the strongest plot claim to Quezacotl and Shiva, as they are given to him in the tutorial when he’s by himself.
If you allow GFs based on starting GF compatibility, then Squall gets the highest compatibility with Diabolos compared to all other GFs -and- PCs.
Quezacotl
HP: 2850
Summon: Thunder Storm – 1892 MT Thunder magic damage
Card - ID. Sucess percentage increases as enemy's HP decreases, turns enemy into a card. Godly.
Innate boosts:
Mag+20%, 40%
SumMag+10%,20%,30%
Boost 180%
GFHP+10%,20%
Menu commands:
Thunder Magic Refine - Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga, Aero, Tornado
Mid Magic Refine
Card Mod
Junctions: HP, Vit, Elem DefX2, Elem Atk
Shiva
HP: 2750
Summon: Diamond Dust – 1897 MT Ice magic damage
Doom – 100% ID when Timer reaches 0.
Innate boosts:
Spr+20%,40%
Vit+20%,40%
SumMag+10%,20%,30%
GFHP+10%,20%
Boost 180%
Menu commands:
Ice Magic Refine - Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga, Water
Junctions: Spr, Str, Vit, Elem Atk, Elem DefX2
Diablos
HP: 3000
Summon: Dark Messenger - Gravity-based percentage damage, MT Percentage based on level (50% mHP damage at L50, 100% mHP damage at L100) Damage cannot exceed 9999 cap.
Mug: Physical + Steal
Darkside : 3x Physical damage (2235), costs 10% mHP
Innate boosts: (Can only equip 3, stackable)
Mag+20%,40%
HP+20%,40%,80%
GFHP+10%,20%,30%
Ability x3 – can equip up to 3 innate boosts.
Menu abilities:
Time Magic Refine -Slow, Haste, Stop, Quake, Demi, Double, Triple
Status Magic Refine - Silence, Berserk, Bio, Blind, Confuse, Sleep, Break, Pain, Meltdown
Junctions: Mag, HP, Hit
Squall's stats [with Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilities)
HP - 4187 [9999] (PainX100) (HP+80%, HP+40%)
STR - 78
VIT - 41
MAG - 45 [115] (TripleX100)
SPR - 36
SPD - 37
LUK - 22
Hit - 255 [255] (DoubleX100 for a +40 boost! Yes!)
Squall's physical: 745 (1117 with/ critical trigger)
Squall can increase his Hit, too, but his weapon is already a 255 (max) Hit weapon. With Diablo, Squall gets access to a summoning meatshield that deals cHP damage against anything that doesn't resist Gravity. He also gets Darkside to deal 3x his normal physical for the minor cost of 10% mHP. Oh, and he hits the HP cap easily with HP+80% and +40%, which stack. He even has room left over for another innate boost thanks to Ability x3. If you allow the PCs to actually -cast- their refined spells and not simply equip them (I don't), then Squall is also a nasty status whore.
Rinoa Heartilly
HP - 4181
STR - 67
VIT - 31
MAG - 63
SPR - 39
SPD - 36
LUK – 22
Shooting Star +17 (Ranged)
Physical: 815
Limits
Combine:
25% chance of each of the following:
Angelo Cannon: 1378
Angelo Strike: 2938
Invincible Moon: Invincible for 3 Turns
Wishing Star: 6191*8 = 49529
There is also a chance of Angelo performing mid-battle skills to aid the party. The chance of this is low, but for completion, here they are. Activation rates from this BMG (http://www.forte.spacequadrat.de/home/ff8/final_fantasy_viii_battle_mechanics.txt) .
Angelo Rush: 1068 randomly counters when Rinoa is attacked. (6.2% counter rate)
Angelo Recover: 62.5% Healing (6.6% counter rate)
Angelo Reverse: Angelo uses a Phoenix down on a fallen party member (Revive + 12.5% mHP). This works if Rinoa is the last one standing. (3/256 activation rate)
Angelo Search: Steals an item! (8/256 activation rate)
Angel Wing: Can be selected instead of Combine on Disk 3/4
-Rinoa becomes berserk and casts magic seemingly randomly from her entire range of useable spells, including Attack, Status, and Recovery magic. Casting does not effect the party’s inventory while in this mode. Not effected by crisis level.
-Magic power is 5x normal damage.
-Rinoa becomes immune to negative status.
-She will not cast attack magic or negative status on the party, nor will she cast healing magic or positive status on the enemy. She seems to favor damage spells.
Your mileage may vary, but if you allow GFs, Rinoa automatically had Leviathan junctioned in the FF8 demo, and this is probably her strongest claim to any of the GFs.
If you allow GFs based on starting GF compatibility, Rinoa's highest compatibility is the same as Selphie's, only Selphie has a higher base compatibility, so Rinoa defaults to her next-highest, Leviathan, conveniently.
Leviathan
HP: 3550
Summon: Tsunami – 2185 MT Water magic damage
Recover - Heals at no MP cost!
Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Spr+20%,40%
SumMag+10%,20%,30%
GFHP+10%,20%,30%
Boost 230%
Menu commands:
Support Magic Refine - Esuna, Dispel, Protect, Shell, Reflect, Drain, Aura
Junctions: Spr, Mag, Elem DefX2, Elem Atk
Rinoa's stats [w/ Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilities)
HP - 4181
STR - 84
VIT - 31
MAG - 63 [87] (AuraX100)
SPR - 39 [111 (177 w/ Spr+40%,20%)] (ReflectX100)
SPD - 36
LUK – 22
Fire, Ice, Thunder Def: 40% (ProtectX100, ShellX100)
All other Elem Def: 20% (ShellX100)
Rinoa's physical: 815
Rinoa gets a big boost to her magic durability if you allow Junctioning. She also picks up the hardest-hitting GF of the PCs, so she'll be using that primarily for offense. More importantly, she gets the Recover commad, which is nearly-full free healing that she can spam every turn. So she basically becomes a staller who you must OHKO or outspeed.
Quistis Trepe
HP - 3883
STR - 46
VIT - 30
MAG - 42
SPR - 34
SPD - 34
LUK - 21
Save the Queen +13
Physical: 460
Limit: Blue Magic.
At high crisis, Quistis' limits power up. She either needs incredibly low HP or a pretty debilitating status to achieve this, though.
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1. Lv? Death: Higher Crisis makes the ? smaller. Lv4-1
2. Degenerator: ID? Or is it like Black Dragon Grief?
3. Micro Missile: Does 50% of target's max HP. (75%)
4. Fire Breath: 1824 (2900)
5. Bad Breath: Sleep, Poison, Silence, Blind. VIT 0, Confusion, Berserk, Slow, Stop, and a bunch of other crap come at high crisis. If she's really beat up, Bad Breath can also inflict ID.
6. White Wind: Heals damage equal to the difference of Quistis' current and max HP.
7. Homing Laser: 3299 (~7000)
8. Mighty Guard: Shell + Protect. Regen, Float, Haste, and Aura? at higher Crisis.
9. Shockwave Pulsar: 6845 (~11800)
If you allow GFs based on starting compatibility, Quistis' highest compatibility is with Shiva compared to all other GFs, and only Rinoa has a higher compatibility with Shiva than her, and Rinoa has better claim to better GFs anyway, so she doesn't care.
Shiva
HP: 2750
Summon: Diamond Dust – 1897 MT Ice magic damage
Doom – 100% ID when Timer reaches 0.
Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Spr+20%,40%
Vit+20%,40%
SumMag+10%,20%,30%
GFHP+10%,20%
Boost 180%
Menu commands:
Ice Magic Refine - Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga, Water
Junctions: Spr, Str, Vit, Elem Atk, Elem DefX2
Quistis' stats [w/ Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilties)
HP - 3883
STR - 59 [89] (BlizzagaX100)
VIT - 30 [44 (62 w/ Vit+40%) (70 w/ Vit+40,20%)] (WaterX100)
MAG - 42
SPR - 34 [42 (59 w/ Spr+40%) (72 w/ Spr+40,20%)] (BlizzaraX100)
SPD - 34
LUK - 21
Ice Def: 50% (BlizzardX100)
*Ice Def: 150% (Absorbs damage as HP) (BlizzagaX100)
*Ice Atk: 100% (Physical becomes Ice-elemental) (BlizzagaX100)
Quistis' physical: 949
*Quistis can drop her STR boost to opt for an Ice-elemental attack for whatever reason, she probably prefers to just summon Shiva in this case. But she can also drop her STR boost for the ability to absorb Ice-elemental attacks.
Quistis gets a nice STR boost, but at the moment, I'm not sure what kind of effect this has on her physical damage output besides 'it increases'. She also picks up some fun Ice-elemental tricks and Doom, which might allow her to stall until ID hits against slower opponents. The defense boosts are a nice addition, too. Water is sucky spell for Junctioning compared to the other elemental magic refine sets.
Zell Dincht
HP - 4018
STR - 47
VIT - 33
MAG - 42
SPR - 27
SPD - 35
LUK - 20
Ehrgeiz +18
Physical: 572
Limit: Duel. Basically, Zell has 4.66, 6.66, 9, or 12 Seconds to pull off as many combos as he can. Booya/Heel Drop seems to be the best one for this.
Booya: 520
Punch Rush: 450
Mach Kick: 605
Heel Drop: 560
Dolphin Strike: 803
Meteor Strike: This is a percentage attack, but I don't know what it is, exactly.
Finishers:
Burning Rave: 1318 (Punch Rush, Mach Kick, Punch Rush, Heel Drop)
Meteor Barret: 1503 (Booya, Heel Drop, Mach Kick, Heel Drop, Booya, Punch Rush, Mach Kick)
Different Beat: 2081 (Booya, Heel Drop, Mach Kick, Heel Drop)
My Final Heaven: 1430 (Booya, Heel Drop, Mach Kick, Punch Rush)
If you allow GFs based on starting compatibility, then Zell's highest compatibility is with Ifrit as compared to all other GFs. Additionally, only a temp, Edea, has a higher base compatibility with Ifrit.
Ifrit
HP: 3100
Summon: Hell Fire - 1980 MT Fire magic damage
Mad Rush: Grants Berserk (Damage+50%), Protect, Haste to party
Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Str+20%,40%
Str Bonus (+1 Str per level up)
SumMag+10%,20%,30%
GFHP+10%,20%30%
Boost 180%
Menu commands:
Fire Magic Refine - Fire, Fira, Firaga, Flare
Ammo Refine
Junctions: Str, HP, Elem-DefX2, Elem-Atk
Zell's stats [w/ Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilities)
HP - 4018 [5418] (FiragaX100)
STR - 65 [171 (239 w/ Str+40%) (255 w/ Str+40%,20%)] (FlareX100) (Str Bonus)
VIT - 33
MAG - 42
SPR - 27
SPD - 35
LUK - 20
Fire Def: 130% (Absorbs Fire as HP) (FiraX100, FireX100 to both Elem-Defs)
*Fire Atk: 50% (Physical gets Fire-element attributes) (FireX100)
Zell's physical (full boosts): 7022
Zell's physical (Flares only) : 1684
Zell's physical (Flares+Str+40%) : 3177
**Zell's physical (Flares+Str+60%) : 4058
**Str Bonus of 50 is ridiculous, so some people might prefer this number.
*Zell can lose some Fire resistance (down to 80%) and Junction his Fire spells to Elem-Atk to get a Fire elemental physical for whatever reason. He probably wants to use Ifrit in this case, but then again, his STR stat is awesome.
Yikes. Ifrit's skills are well-tailored for dueling. STR Bonus grants a point of STR at every level up. This would mean that if Zell had Ifrit from level 1, he'd get a +98 STR increase because FF8 characters' stats are taken at L99 in the DL for some reason. I'm capping this at STR+50 for a more conservative estimate, but just be aware that it could be higher. Additionally, Ifrit also allows STR junctioning AND STR percent boosts, so Zell can hit the STR cap. Not sure how much damage this translates to in his physical, but needless to say, it's a lot. To top it off, he can use Mad Rush, which Berserks him (no Limit hype then), but it also boosts his damage further AND he gets Haste and Protect out of the deal to become a speedy physical powers who absorbs Fire for good measure. If he needs magic damage for whatever reason, he'll drop the Str boosts and go for Summon Magic boosting to get some mileage out of Ifrit's not-too-shabby summon, too.
Selphie Tilmitt
HP - 3680
STR - 45
VIT - 28
MAG - 49
SPR - 38
SPD - 37
LUK - 26
Strange Vision +13 (255 hit, ITE)
Physical: 465
Slots: This allows Selphie to cast a large repertoire of spells 1-3 times. She has lots to choose from, but obviously, the better damage spells like Ultima and The End are rare. Useful stuff like Full-Cure and the statuses are pretty common.
Ultima: ~2500
Flare: ~1200
Holy: ~1200
Meteor: 3300, Hits 10 times for ~330. Higher magic defense will null this damage.
Drain: Takes ~500 HP away from an enemy.
Firaga: ~700
Blizzaga: ~700
Thundage: ~700
Aura: Gets Limits easier.
Full-Cure: Full Healing + Status healing.
The End: Immunity bypassing instant death. The End instantly defeats any enemy in the game, except undead or zombified foes. If the boss has multiple forms, The End reduces HP of current form to zero (0), triggering the battle with next form immediately.
Dispel: Removes stat buffs from enemy.
Haste: ATB charges 50% faster
Protect: Physical Attacks reduced by 50%
Shell: Magical Attacks reduced by 50%
Wall: MT Shell and Protect status
Statuses:
Death, Berserk, Blind, Zombie, Sleep, Pain (Silence and Poison), Stop (rare), Silence, Meltdown (0 VIT)
If you allow GFs based on starting compatibility, Selphie has really strong claim with several GFs. Her highest compatibility of all GFs is Cerberus, followed by Carbuncle, both of which top Rinoa's list of GF compatibilities, but Selphie's compatibility is higher. So Rinoa defaults to Leviathan (her next-highest compatibility GF where she has a higher compatibility than Selphie), and Selphie gets Cerberus (and possibly Carbuncle if you're feeling nice). If you allow Junctioning spells based solely on what a PC can refine from their GFs' menu commands, then Selphie wants Siren, who can refine Life/Recovery magic spells, whereas Cerberus and Carbuncle do not have spell-refining commands. Selphie also has the highest compatibility with Siren of all the PCs.
Cerberus
HP: 3000
Summon: Counter Rockets - grants Double and Triple status to all allies
Alert: Party cannot be surprise-attacked!
Auto-Haste: Permanently grants Haste status to user. Cannot be dispelled.
Expend x2-1: Only one unit of stocked magic is expended if cast while user is under Double status.
Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Spd+20%,40%
GFHP+10%,20%,30%
Junctions: Str, Hit, Mag, Spr, Spd, St-Atk, St-Defx4
Carbuncle
HP: 3350
Summon: Ruby Light - grants Reflect status to all allies
Counter: Automatically counters physical attacks with a basic physical.
Auto-Reflect: Permanently grants Reflect status to user. Cannot be dispelled.
Innate Boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
HP+20%,40%
Vit+20%,40%
Vit Bonus
GFHP+10%,20%,30%
Menu Commands:
Recovery Medicine Refine
Junctions: Vit, HP, Mag, St-Defx2, St-Atk
Siren
HP: 2700
Summon: Silent Voice - 1356 and high chance of Silence
Treatment: Cures all status effects
Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Mag+20%,40%
Mag Bonus
SumMag+10%,20%,30%
GFHP+10%,20%
Boost 200
Menu commands:
Life Magic Refine - Cure, Cura, Curaga, Regen, Life, Full-Life, Holy, Zombie, Death
Status Medicine Refine
Tool Refine
Junctions: Mag, St-DefX2, St-Atk
Selphie's stats [w/ Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilities)
HP - 3680
STR - 58
VIT - 28
MAG - 49 [119 (167 w/ Mag+40%) (190 w/ Mag+40,20%)] (CuragaX100) (Mag Bonus)
SPR - 38
SPD - 37
LUK - 26
Selphie's physical: 465
Status Attack: 100% ID attached to physical (DeathX100)
*Status Attack: 100% Zombie status attached to physical (ZombieX100) I believe Zombie ends a match if all remaining opponents are Zombies.
Status Def(x2 slots): 80% ID resist, 40% resist against Poison, Berserk, Zombie, Sleep, Curse, Confuse, Drain (HolyX100, Full-LifeX100)
*Stat Def(x2 slots): 100% ID resist (DeathX100), 100% Zombie resist (ZombieX100)
Well, Siren works really well with Selphie's weapon. She's able to get two flavors of 100% ID attached to her ITE physical. Yikes. She can also opt to junction these to her status defense for 100% ID protection if necessary. Her Magic stat got a nice boost too, which is useful if you allow her to cast Holy from the menu, or if not, STILL useful thanks to how it effects the power of her Limits. She also has Silence by summoning Siren should she be facing an ID-immune mage. Regen and Curaga are nice too if you allow them to cast their menu-refined spells (I don't).
Irvine Kinneas
HP - 3880
STR - 45
VIT - 31
MAG - 42
SPR - 28
SPD - 39
LUK - 21
Exeter +13
Physical: 490
Normal Shot: 400x6 = 2400 (sometimes 5 shots)
Scattered Shot: 345x6 = 2070 (MT)
Dark Shot: 345*6 = 2070. Causes Blind, Poison, Sleep, Slow, and Silence.
Flame Shot: 960*4 = 3840 (Fire elemental)
Canister Shot: 1500*3 = 4500 (Uses Demolition Ammo)
Quick Shot: 170*15 = 2550
Armor Shot: 1960*3 = 5880 (ITD)
Hyper Shot: 3000*4 = 12000 (Uses Pulse Ammo)
At high crisis, the time Irvine gets for Shot is almost tripled.
Normal Shot: 400*17 = 6800
Scattered Shot: 345x17 = 5865
Flame Shot: 960*11 = 10560
Canister Shot: 1500*7 = 10500
Quick Shot: 46*165 = 7820
Armor Shot: 1960*7 = 13720
Hyper Shot: 3000*7 = 21000
If you allow GFs based on starting compatibility, the Irvine's highest compatibility is with Quezacotl compared to all other GFs. He also has the highest compatibility with Quezacotl of the PCs, excluding the temp Edea.
Quezacotl
HP: 2850
Summon: Thunder Storm – 1892 MT Thunder magic damage
Card - ID. Sucess percentage increases as enemy's HP decreases, turns enemy into a card. Godly.
Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Mag+20%, 40%
SumMag+10%,20%,30%
Boost 180%
GFHP+10%,20%
Menu commands:
Thunder Magic Refine - Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga, Aero, Tornado
Mid Magic Refine
Card Mod
Junctions: HP, Vit, Elem DefX2, Elem Atk
Irvine's stats [w/ Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilities)
HP - 3880 [6880] (TornadoX100)
STR - 53
VIT - 31 [47] (ThundagaX100)
MAG - 42 [42 (59 w/ Mag+40%) (67 w/ Mag+40,20%)]
SPR - 28
SPD - 39
LUK - 21
Thunder Def (x2 slots): 130% (Absorbs Thunder as HP) (ThundaraX100, ThunderX100)
*Wind Def (+Thun Def in slot2): 80% (AeroX100, ThundaraX100)
*Thunder/Wind Atk (1 slot only): 80% Thunder or Wind-elemental physical (ThundaraX100 OR AeroX100)
Irvine's physical: 490
Irvine picked up some increased durability and Thunder/Wind elemental tricks. Nothing particularly exciting, but the increased HP means that his Limit range is little broader and he's more likely to survive being knocked into range so he can unleash the big damage or status whoring. Also spoils Thunder/Wind reliant characters and picks up a summoning meatshield with magic damage. He probably doesn't care about the Magic stat boost and will opt for the SumMag boost instead to increased Quezacotl's summoning effectiveness.
TEMPS:
Laguna
HP - 4148
STR - 48
VIT - 41
MAG - 46
SPR - 36
SPD - 37
LUK - 21
Physical: 380
Limit
Desperado: 2740
Kiros
HP - 3728
STR - 43
VIT - 31
MAG - 50
SPR - 41
SPD - 48
LUK - 23
Physical: 317
Limit
Blood Pain: 2378
Ward
HP - 4768
STR - 56
VIT - 44
MAG - 36
SPR - 30
SPD - 27
LUK - 14
Physical: 500
Limit
Massive Anchor: 3970
Seifer
HP - 5823
STR - 48
VIT - 39
MAG - 45
SPR - 38
SPD - 45
LUK - 19
Hyperion: +17 (scaled)
255% Hit Rate
Seifer's Physical: 580 (870)
Limit:
No Mercy: 2320
Seifer seemed to get Limits 40% of the time when he was near full health. Naturally, this is higher when he is at lower health.
Edea
HP - 3777
STR - 41
VIT - 20
MAG - 55
SPR - 45
SPD - 31
LUK - 15
No Weapon
Physical: 373
Limit: Sorcery
Ice Strike: 5106
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Because the link is unstable, I'm uploading the guy's BMG here. Not to be used without his consent and all that.
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Angelo Cannon is her default Limit. She always has it.
Angelo Rush I think is a particular move that kicks in randomly. She has a few of these, like one of which involves Angelo coming in and reviving a random PC (useless in the DL, of course.) The ones that matter kick in too rarely to care.
Angelo Strike, I believe its called, is just ST damage which is higher than Angelo Cannon (which is MT damage, IIRC.)
Either way, the stat topic is a bit out of date; the claim of teaching Rinoa less limits ups her chances of the better ones is in fact false; it just uses Angelo Cannon if you try to use an unlearned Limit, apparently.
Long overdue, but the stat topic has been fixed to reflect all of this.
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Limit break mechanics
Normally, the limit threshold for FF8 is 32%, that is, below 32% HP, the FF8 cast has a non-zero chance to get a limit.
The % chance of an FF8 character to get a limit = (limit threshold% - current HP%) * 1000 / 512.
Or, the chance to get a limit rises by 10% for every 5.12% below the limit threshold. (about double, for back of the envelope calculations). At 32% HP, the chance is zero, and at 0% HP, the chance is 62.5%. At 25% HP, the chance is 13.7%, and at 10% HP, the chance is 43%.
Some status effects directly raise the limit threshold. For instance, if an FF8 character is poisoned, the limit threshold is raised by 12%, meaning it goes from 32% to 44%. All limit chances are then calculated as if current HP were 12% lower than it actually is, in other words the chance of a limit is 12 * 1000 / 512 = 23.4% higher.
Here's the list:
+6%: Slow
+12%: Poison, Blind, Silence, Slow Petrify
+18%: Doom
+80%: Aura
Note that if you have more than one status effect, their bonuses stack additively.
EDIT: If an FF8 PC has a dead ally (maybe in a team fight, or if you have Tal's views), it's +8%. Two dead allies is +16%. Your call if it'd go further or not.
Limit fishing:
Assuming the DL stat topic's 36 average speed, FF8 characters get turns almost exactly once every 3 seconds on the default battle speed. FF8 characters can "fish" for a limit by the player pressing a button to get their turn to come up again, with an audible chime sounding if they qualify for a limit. How fast can the player do this? It obviously depends on the person, but I'm going to assume once every 0.25 seconds. That's slightly slower than typical human reaction time, but of course the player does have to spend another brief moment processing whether they've heard the chime and therefore whether they should press the button again. Thus, if an FF8 character spends an entire round at a low HP, they get 12 shots at a limit (though less if the opponent is fast, more if they're slow).
Some quick math suggests that an FF8 character needs to be about 5% HP below their current limit threshold to have a >67% chance of getting a limit over the course of a full round. The conventional wisdom that the cutoff for this is at about 25% HP is actually remarkably good, especially if I'm being slightly too generous on reaction time.
Note that Selphie needs even more time if she's fishing for a specific result out of her Slots. I'm not going to make any attempt to document that at this time.
Crisis level:
Crisis level is randomly determined by the same mechanic that decides whether an FF8 character qualifies for a limit. Higher crisis level = stronger limit breaks. The limit thresholds posted above all concern crisis level 1, the lowest. In general, the limit threshold for each subsequent crisis level is 6.4% HP lower.
However, fishing for low crisis is impossible, because there's no cue as to what crisis level the PC currently is, only whether they have a limit break or not. So don't just assume that "6.4% less HP = higher crisis level"... that's sadly not how it works!
Here's a chart showing the average crisis level assuming an FF8 character qualifies for a limit at varying HP levels. As usual, adjust all these figures upwards if an FF8 character is statused.
32% = beginning of limit threshold
25.6% = chance of Crisis 2 becomes non-zero
19.2% = chance of Crisis 1 and Crisis 2 is equal (average is 1.5)
12.8% = equal chance of Crisis 1, 2, and 3 (average is 2)
6.4% = equal chance of Crisis 1, 2, 3, and 4. (average is 2.5)
0% = Average crisis level is 2.8.
As a general rule of thumb, I'd probably start assuming Crisis Level 2 for DL limits below around 15% HP, and Crisis Level 1 above that.