The RPG Duelling League
RPGDL Games => Forum Games => Topic started by: Laggy on September 01, 2008, 07:13:58 PM
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In true spirit of the game, there will be no witty flavor here. Just an impending sense of doom.
The game is over! Third-party (Kilga) wins!
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Still Alive
1. Kilga, BULLETPROOF ANONYVOTER SURVIVOR THIRD-PARTY (winner)
2. Delta, VANILLA TOWNIE
3. Alex, VANILLA TOWNIE
Resting in Pieces
1. Corwin, VANILLA TOWNIE (modkilled Day 1)
2. Bardiche, CONDITIONAL ROLEBLOCKER SCUM (lynched Day 1)
3. Excal, TOWN COP (nightkilled Night 1)
4. Ciato, GODFATHER SCUM (lynched Day 2)
5. Dread Thomas, VANILLA TOWNIE (lynched Day 3)
6. Soppy, TOWN DOCTOR (nightkilled Night 3)
7. Rat, TOWN WATCHER & CONDITIONAL VIGILANTE (lynched Day 4)
8. El Cid, VANILLA TOWNIE (lynched Day 5) (end of game)
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Rules of the Game
- Do not exceed the general area of 300 words on your posts.
- Do not post consecutively aside from errors in your previous post or to clarify something you feel is critical.
- No editing your posts.
- No talking outside the thread about the game, unless your role specifically states that you may.
- No posting during game nights.
- No spectator posts. Period.
- Don't directly quote your role PM. This will result in a modkill.
- Vote using ##Vote: name and ##Unvote: name (with the bold). I will ignore all other formats.
- PLAY TO WIN.
- There may or may not be third parties.
- There will be no extensions barring a 30-minute autoextend granted on the last post. Don't abuse this.
- LYLO and potential LYLO will be announced. There will be no time limit on LYLO days.
- There are roles in this game. This is a closed setup.
- There may or may not be 'scripted sequences' of events that change the rules of the game and things like that.
- Town must lynch. If there is a deadlock at deadline, the Hatbot will decide. You have been warned. Autoextend should resolve this from ever happening but still.
- Modkills may result in an instant end of the day phase depending on circumstances and subject to my discretion. Modkills are bad for the game and potentially for both sides. Please don't make them happen.
- All days will be 48 hours. There will be a Night 0.
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Let the game begin. I for one think that we should roleclaim as well as jokevote.
BARDICHE! I CHOOSE YOU!
##VOTE: BARDICHE
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Let's start. Given that Rat is always scum and I have no reason to disbelive. ##Vote: Carthrat.[\b]
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Sooner or later, he'll make us do this anyway! I want to be the first in on this so I am not band wagoning!
##VOTE: EvilTom
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As for my roleclaim, I am a vanilla townie.
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The Alex I know would've voted by now.
##Vote: Sir Alex
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He'd also have voted Delta. dude, what's with the P1 claim and fishing?
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Wow, this game has gotten off to a weird start.
REGARDLESS, IT'S A (CANADIAN) TRAP
##VOTE: Excal
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It wasnt intended as rolefishing, and the claim was a jokevote... You know, same as you voted for carthrat? The roleclaim was simply because it is the truth. Why would you argue with a person who has made an action just the same as you disregarding the the roleclaim? Its almost as if you are trying to sow doubt already...
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So was the claim joking or truth? It can't be both. And the differance between joke vote and claim is that one can be retracted and the other cannot.
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sorry, musta got the words wrong.
Role claim = truth
jokevote = well... joke
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Heidely ho, duellerinos! It's a bright and shiny day here in Virginia, and I for one could not be more disappointed about this fact. The Cid does not care for summer. The Cid wants glum, drizzly days! However, I will not let my displeasure affect my voting! No, sir. Instead, I will
##Vote: Delta
for roleclaiming day one, something that always looks odd even in jest.
~
Muppy sez: Remember, kids, don't vote in anger. It's what the scummies want!
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My scum sense is tingling, and it points me towards Ciato!
##Vote: Ciato
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##Vote: Delta for rolefishing on day one and claiming vanilla thus implying he has no particular reason to want a massclaim to go down since a vanilla townie would have no special information to work with here that might indicate many roleclaims = good strat.
Also!
I for one think that we should roleclaim as well as jokevote.
It wasnt intended as rolefishing...
Well it sure looked like it to me! Everyone who didn't talk about these weird actions after the fact is, themselves, weird, and should talk about it.
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Hello. I'm not going to jokevote. Day 1 sucks.
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What's up, Alex? No reaction to someone roleclaiming vanilla in the first page of the game? That's not the Alex I know!
And now we await the inevitable explosion.
~
Muppy sez: Don't taunt your friends, kids. This are serious Mafia.
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In general, I try to be lenient with new players since it takes a while to adjust to the style of Mafia here…
…But.
Rolefishing is pretty much the lamest thing ever, and then trying to adamantly deny that you were rolefishing when there is pretty much no ifs, ands, ors, or buts about saying "Everyone roleclaim now, it'll be wonderful~" and then proceed to dish out the fundamentally useless vanilla townie roleclaim. In general, knowing all this happy fun information just gives the forces of evil something to work with, and I wish instead of denying that you took on this mindset that you'd explain the reasoning behind it. As is you have told the enemy "No, don't worry about killing me I'm useless anyway", sowed doubt in the hearts of townies, and what benefit have we drawn from this aside from annoyance?
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Delta is a liability because this rolefishing business is going to stay in everyone's minds, and in the absence of other factors he'd be a good first lynch on that basis alone. Realistically, though, this is coming too early for me to see it as part of a scum play, and with 11 on board we can't afford to mislynch. Pegging him as town for now. (To Delta: No offense intended. Please read more and think about why immediate roleclaims are a bad idea.)
No leads on anyone else so far. Surprised Excal prodded Delta twice instead of voting him, but not willing to vote on that yet. Day 1 sucks.
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What's up, Alex? No reaction to someone roleclaiming vanilla in the first page of the game? That's not the Alex I know!
Get your own material. *shakefist*
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Excal (1): Ciato
Ciato (1): Soppy
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Excal
Delta (2): El Cid, Rat
Alex (1): Kilga
Bardiche (1): Delta
Corwin (0):
Dread Thomas (1): Bardiche
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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Bizarre behaviour warrants my vote;
I see no reason to make excuses when this isn't Delta's first game here. I also don't see how blatant rolefishing and roleclaiming a post later can give a town read. Somebody playing badly can be playing scum badly just as much as playing town badly; I'm surprised you can get a positive town read from this, Alex. I certainly don't, and I don't want to risk dismissing this without a vote.
##Vote: Delta
Ps. Bardiche, you say things that do hurt me so :(
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... Somehow I foresaw this turn of events the moment Delta called for a roleclaim. It'd be a wonderful way to catch scum, in a world where no one tells lies and everyone happily holds hands.
But yeah, things just don't work that way. I do think we're jumping on a Day 1 lynch a bit too fast, or maybe that's because we've had unlimited day phases the last time and actually have a time limit to work with now.
However, I'm not convinced of Delta being a good lynch target based on three posts alone, being basically, "Let's roleclaim!" "I'm Vanilla!" "What? But you were joke voting, too, and roleclaiming's useful!"
... Could it be he genuinely believes a mass roleclaim is the answer to success? Like Alex, I instead find Delta to be more town-ish than scum-ish, albeit a bad town. He just feels completely unaware of what he was doing, and ignorance shouldn't be grounds to lynch immediately.
PS: I love you, really, Tom~
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Alex, two reasons for my lack of vote.
One, was posting via cell phone. No space bar, so no real formatting. Hence, no real desire to change vote. Two was I wanted to be a little more sure before changing my vote. No need to always be aggressive, yes? And, there were questions that needed asking. Curious, I find it. You see in him a townie, yet you still have no questions? We need to talk, we need to have something to go on, and yet you don't want to know why he did what he did.
Thoughts:
Delta: Still hasn't explained why he roleclaimed, or why he wanted others to. Attacked me when called on his actions. Only solid fact that roleclaim is supposedly true. Answer why you did this, please.
Alex: Why no questions? Might agree with thoughts Re: Delta, but lack of inquiry is unsettling. Especially on Day 1.
Rat: Agreed with for last line. Why did some ignore this when it's a common scum trait? Though... something feels off here, not sure what. Will watch.
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For the record, stuff has progressed pretty much as I figured it would: couple people are going for the 'delta is a newbie' angle, others reject that. Typical d1 sentiment goes here.
I think a key point that hasn't received enough attention (despite my efforts!) is that Delta claimed what he was doing wasn't intended as rolefishing when it seems obvious that it was. The two people mainly plugging the 'bad town' angle don't seem to have covered this, and I'd like them to (that's you, Alex, Bardiche) as well as have a response from Delta about his original intentions, too.
In any case, I think that whatever else you call Delta's actions, they are not indicative of pro-town behaviour. Assuming you treat his moves as borne merely out of ignorance, it shifts the balance not at all, leading me to question his defenders. Still the best looking lynch I can see.
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Excal: Cell phone understandable.
Questions about what? Nothing has happened except for jokevotes and Delta and I don't think the Delta issue is a good basis for any lynch right now. We aren't even on page 2. Tom hadn't even posted at the time and Corwin STILL hasn't.
I don't have anything else to say about Delta, he is quite transparent and I find it impossible to work with that style of play. Ninja edit for Rat: I think he was playing only for himself and simply did not think about the consequences of the rest of the game following his lead. The fact that "Hey if we all roleclaim, we'll know who has roles!" did not seem to occur to him until it was explained.
I am not strictly opposed to policy lynching everyone who plays this way in every game, but that does result in long strings of town losses and I have been told people hate me for it.
One thing that does tip my radar here is that Excal accepts Delta's claim as a solid fact. That is not a good move, in my experience newbies who call for instant claims and say vanilla often have a role themselves and are looking for someone to use it on. I say this without being concerned about possibly outing Delta because A. it is WIFOM either way as long as he doesn't talk about it (DON'T TALK ABOUT IT) and B. the scum will definitely have thought of this possibility already, guaranteed and C. if he does have a role he's already blown its usefulness because of B and his own lying about it.
I am not sure this is scummy on Excal's part either and it is again based on Delta issue. It is odd, though.
I dislike Bard's playstyle.
That is all.
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Okay. Let me clear up a few things. I have been reading other mafia games from before I came to here. In the start, someone almost always hints at roleclaiming but doesnt die. Not sure how that makes me a villain or a bad townie but anyways. Moving on:
Rolefishing is pretty much the lamest thing ever, and then trying to adamantly deny that you were rolefishing when there is pretty much no ifs, ands, ors, or buts about saying "Everyone roleclaim now, it'll be wonderful~" and then proceed to dish out the fundamentally useless vanilla townie roleclaim. In general, knowing all this happy fun information just gives the forces of evil something to work with, and I wish instead of denying that you took on this mindset that you'd explain the reasoning behind it.
I have explained up above.
As for the roleclaim. I see no reason for me to lie about my role, why should I? I am innocent and have no reason to lie. One thing is, I apologise for putting you people into a precarious position on whether or not you beleive me. Another is just a question:
What is WIFOM?
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Okay. Let me clear up a few things. I have been reading other mafia games from before I came to here.
What is WIFOM?
##Vote: Delta
Do you understand why you are making it nearly impossible for us not to lynch you?
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WIFOM stands for Wine In Front of Me. It's generally used to refer to any argument that leads to an unproductive logic loop and/or endless second guessing. For a perfect illustration of this phenomenon (and the inspiration for the term itself) watch The Princess Bride.
And there's a difference between hinting at roleclaiming and actually doing it. Plenty of people might seed their early posts with hints to support a roleclaim late in the game; these hints make sense in retrospect but aren't obvious at the time. This is often done so that the eventual roleclaim doesn't seem made up right on the spot. This is different from flat out claiming vanilla on the first page of a game. Rolefishing, bluntly looking for information on other players' roles, is another thing altogether, and something it's very difficult to make useful outside of games that are blatantly role heavy. This is where the problem is, in my opinion.
My opinion right now is that looking at the response to Delta's claim would be more productive than ganging up on Delta himself, though. So:
##Unvote: Delta
~
Muppy sez: Rolefishing makes for sad pands. Relax, don't do it!
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Let the game begin. I for one think that we should roleclaim as well as jokevote.It wasnt intended as rolefishing, and the claim was a jokevote... You know, same as you voted for carthrat? The roleclaim was simply because it is the truth. Why would you argue with a person who has made an action just the same as you disregarding the the roleclaim? Its almost as if you are trying to sow doubt already...
This does not explain why you want a roleclaim or why you think it would help us.
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Delta claimed what he was doing wasn't intended as rolefishing when it seems obvious that it was. The two people mainly plugging the 'bad town' angle don't seem to have covered this, and I'd like them to (that's you, Alex, Bardiche)
I already said I thought he wasn't exactly sure what he was doing - that he might've mistakingly rolefished when he thought he was trying to get people to roleclaim. When I first began playing Mafia, I didn't know soliciting for people to roleclaim = rolefish.
I'm not going to lie and say, "We should lynch Delta because he's being really scummy" when I don't feel he's scummy and, instead, seems to have made a silly newbie mistake. Putting the ball back at Excal is similar to the games I played with him at another site, and it was commonly how it was played. I'll write that off as playstyle, and not scumtell.
I dislike Bard's playstyle.
;_;
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This does not explain why you want a roleclaim or why you think it would help us.
Because usually (as I have read), people claim to be vanilla when they usually arent. Either A) Because it is the truth, B) To protect that they are scum or C) to protect them from scum.
The reason i did it is reason A).
Also, I do not know if you people have noticed but Corwin has not made a single post yet. Why lynch a townie who has something to say and can contribute when you can lynch a person who is lurking, not contributing and is really not an assistance at all. That is the reason for this:
##UNVOTE: BARDICHE
##VOTE: CORWIN
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Delta, are you reading the other posts in the thread? What do you think of the debate surrounding you? Why do you expect us to believe that you are telling the truth?
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I dont expect you to, but i want you to. Because put it this way, Corwin is currently lurking. I can (and have) now contribute/contributed.
Also, soryy about my last post, the quotes sorta went... wrong :(
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Delta: Truth or no, coming out with a vanilla claim on day one is fundamentally unhelpful. There's just nothing we can do with that.
I've also noted Cor's absence. I think he said something in chat yesterday about work being a bitch this week, but I know that doesn't excuse anything. Trouble is, someone simply not being here gives us very little to work with. If we lynch someone for inactivity day one we learn considerably less than if we had lynched someone with more interaction on the record. So while you're right in pointing out that he hasn't posted, repeating this accomplishes little.
~
Muppy sez: Lack of editing also leads to sad pandas. And to typos. The Preview button is your friend, kids!
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Well, honestly I think this debacle is... not worth thinking about too much. This being a scum tactic is really really bad but possibly pretty straightforward enough for a new player to do? Then again, I can see the mindset of why one would think getting his role out in the open is good, but the calling for mass claim Day 1 is really irksome.
Corwin... was actually on the board last night and didn't post? A little bit peculiar especially since I know Corwin doesn't post anywhere else. <_< Not going to get up in arms quite yet over it though.
Excal is making me very uncomfortable. I feel that he's trying to prod Delta into saying something that will get him lynched without putting his own ass into the fire. I feel like he is just skirting around making any remotely definitive statements (like his vaguely concurring with Rat about people being suspicious but not really putting any bite into his statement) and as a result I am suspicious of him. (although I understand completely the complaint about typing on cell phones.)
Alex seems to have foregone an epic switch with Delta’s bizarre questions. His first posts seem rather sulky but then he starts posting stuff with some meat. The thing that makes me suspicious about this is that he’s gone under fire for defending Delta and then quickly puts a vote in for him after another Delta post. I’m not sure if he’s doing it out of a genuine concern that Delta is just really bad scum or because he was drawing fire for the Delta issue.
Regardless I am comfortable with keeping my jokevote except that it’s not a jokevote anymore.
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Okay. Let me clear up a few things. I have been reading other mafia games from before I came to here.
What is WIFOM?
##Vote: Delta
Do you understand why you are making it nearly impossible for us not to lynch you?
One thing, how does this make me scummy? You must surely be lynching me because you think I'm scum.
Also, one note, Corwin may be having trouble like getting home from work or stuff so im going to remove my vote for the time being.
##UNVOTE:CORWIN
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Ciato: It was something Cor said in one of the Soulriders chatrooms, actually. He's more active there. To the best of my knowledge, he doesn't use the DL board (or chatroom) for anything other than Mafia. Anyway, it was a casual remark on my part and shouldn't be taken as an explanation for anything, as I dislike using out-of-context statements to support theories within a game. His absence thus remains odd, but it's just something we can't make a case about either way.
I dunno, maybe his head exploded from all the ideas he couldn't fit into one post? He is fond of the ol' Wall of Text.
~
Muppy sez: ...Nah, I've got nothing this time.
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Excal (1): Ciato
Ciato (1): Soppy
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Excal
Delta (3): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex
Alex (1): Kilga
Bardiche (0): Delta
Corwin (0): Delta
Dread Thomas (1): Bardiche
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
It is 25 hours until deadline.
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I am having serious trouble believing anything about Delta. I think it is impossible for him to be as well read as he claims, yet still not know what WIFOM is. Every post he makes, he hurts town more and digs himself deeper into a hole of being the only possible lynch for today, while either remaining or pretending to remain completely oblivious. If this were role heavy I would seriously suspect jester.
I am not particularly concerned about taking fire for him one way or another. I am concerned that he is eclipsing everything today and I am very sad that such things happen.
That said,
##Unvote: Delta
##Vote: Corwin
Time zones are one thing, going up to the halfway mark of the day with no posts is quite another. Ciato says he was on the boards last night, I see him in IRC today, and the mod says he's been informed that the game began. I've been waiting for him to post this morning, but nothing seems forthcoming. I consider this now a better lynch than anything relating to Delta.
I somewhat agree with Ciato's thoughts on Excal, but... Delta issue.
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... Wait, what, Alex? Uuuuh, okay, so first you say Delta reads as townie to you... Then you switch to saying, "
Do you understand why you are making it nearly impossible for us not to lynch you?" and vote for him... Then you withdraw that vote, saying you "am having serious trouble believing anything about Delta" and "he hurts town more and digs himself deeper into a hole" and then prioritize pushing for lynching Corwin ("I consider this a better lynch") rather than Delta.
Seriously, what the hell? I'm having trouble following you here, can you explain this in a way a kindergartener would understand? LAL is certainly one way to go, but based off of less than 24 hours and an apparent supposition that signing on to IRC equals being active and having time to sit down and compose Mafia posts, I find a Corwin lynch to be in poor taste at this point.
##UNVOTE: EvilTom
##VOTE: Alex
Please explain to me your train of thought herein.
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I will attempt to do so in the form of a reenactment.
Delta: "Antitown things. Please lynch me."
People: "Delta is saying antitown things, let's lynch him."
Me: "That's really dumb, so much that scum wouldn't do it. Let's dismiss it and drop the issue before it dominates the day."
People: "Blah blah Delta Delta Delta"
Delta: "I'm not bothering to read most of what's going on and I don't understand what people are saying about me. I've read lots of games, I promise, but what's WIFOM?"
Me: "ASFFSGFHGSFHG fine, frustration vote, just die already, you're still probably not scum but if you're going to act that way it's pointless to even try to push any other lynch, leaving you alive will just bite town in the rear later on. I don't believe this."
Delta: "Look guys I'm talking that means I'm contributing right?"
Everyone: "Delta Delta Delta Alex and Excal in relation to Delta"
Corwin: "La de de de da, 23 hours and I haven't said anything, 24, 25...."
Me: "You know what, crazy as he is Delta has a point. The rules do call for vociferous participation in this game. Where is Corwin."
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In the spirit of being succinct:
(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=488;type=avatar)
That "said", I don't look down upon the "hey let's mass roleclaim!" too much, as it smacks more of "hurr durr" than "hey imma trix town hehe".
No offense, of course.
##Vote: Corwin for being too succinct.
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I would like to state at this point that the rules DO call for fairly active participation given the nature of the game and asking for one post in a period of 24 hours (half the day) isn't anything close to outlandish, when posts are barely a couple of paragraphs at best. Given Day 1, I will extend some leniency in this manner, but it treads dangerous territory and I will definitely be more demanding on participation after this.
Corwin will be modkilled if he does not post before the scheduled end of the day.
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Ciato, I wasn't aware that I usually put a lot of bite into my statements, especially on Day 1. You may think I was trying to bait Delta, but all I really wanted was exactly the answers that Alex managed to dig out of him. As for the lack of vote, I was never fully convinced he was scum just by his action. There's been too many things that've ridden the line between scummy and bad town here to want to jump before having an idea which is which.
As for Corwin, Cyril has just killed any desire I had to vote for him. So... I guess it's time to start looking at other suspects.
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Well, you already know my vote at the moment.
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No... no, Delta, we don't. You unvoted, giving a decent reason for it, and other people are unvoting Corwin for other reasons as well now. The wagon on him is gone, so to speak (if there ever was one).
Who do you think is scum?
I do not like a lot of people at this point. Ciato/Excal is complicated. I remain not a fan of how Bard rolls. Kilga's latest post is too succinct. It is day 1 and I do not have any degree of comfort on any of them at this time.
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Eh? Oh yea, when i posted my vote, the internet went weird and collapsed... sorry about that.
Im actually suspicious of you at the moment, Alex, but I cant put my finger on it. You just changed your story 3 times. Also, some other people havent posted for a while. Ill bide my time for the moment.
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Excal (1): Ciato
Ciato (1): Soppy
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Excal
Delta (2): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (0): Delta
Corwin (2): Delta, Alex, Kilga
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Kilga, please unvote before voting, thanks. (Let it slide this time, but for future reference.)
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And here we are, at a blank spot. Well, we still have Delta who, to some apparently, pings as scummy/not useful, but to me, I still remain pretty convinced it's just the way a clueless newbie would act. Those grounds are not enough for me to want to eliminate him.
We don't have any real grounds for anything, really - I'm thankful to Delta for pushing this game out of the joke vote phase immediately and wasting no time with jokevoting and the accompanying banter, but if I take Laggy's post for what it is, we've already lost an entire day (24h) of discussion and have advanced to...
Delta is urgh, his playstyle is a bit unconventional.
Excal attacked Delta, but has explained that he did not feel he was attacking at all and didn't find Delta worth pursuing a lynch for.
Alex has that weird jump on Delta so early on in the game, especially considering his jump off Delta almost immediately afterwards to jump on Corwin.
Delta's... As explained above.
I'm wary of Alex for jumpiness. Like he's trying to run some early Day 1 trains. Prodding on the Delta train first, then conveniently jumping off that when no one gives backing and starting what seems to be a Corwin train? Bit too jumpy to me.
Excal's not entirely off my hook.
Kilga needs to post more.
Carth, now... Seems to prod people to get on Delta's case, saying anyone that's not on Delta's weird antics in his first (I think...?) post, which comes down to, "Anyone who doesn't talk about Delta's weird antics is weird by extension and should talk about it." and then "Delta's guardians are questionable now."
To me, that seems a bit iff, because it's like saying, "Everyone should acknowledge Delta's weird antics, or you are suspicious. If you pass those off as not being lynch worthy, you are suspicious. You should all agree he is weird and condemn him for it."
Am I reading this wrong, Rat?
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Can i just say? The vote count is wrong, Kilga's last vote as far as i see was for Corwin, Not myself.
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Fix'd, sorry about that.
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I'd suggest that we retract Corwin votes at this point in time. Given the potential modkill, there's really no reason to keep them there. I would like to draw attention to Soppy, who has posted but provided no real content. We got a jokevote twenty-four hours ago, and that's it.
Also:
I dislike Bard's playstyle.
I'd actually like some elaboration on this. What exactly is it that you dislike? More importantly, what kind of reaction did you hope to provoke by dropping that statement without any explanation?
~
Muppy sez: Being lurkerrific is bad news for Town. If you're one of us, speak up!
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I dislike Bard's style because it feels like gonzo journalism. "And here we are today in Mafia Vietnam! X, Y and Z did this this and this! THEY COULD BE SCUM... OR NOT?!" There is a lot of reporting on events and suggesting possible stances people could take on them without taking one himself. And his descriptions are often of dubious accuracy - for example, he claims I was "Prodding on the Delta train first, then conveniently jumping off that when no one gives backing and starting what seems to be a Corwin train?"
This is pretty much the *exact opposite* of what happened, I started out being the first and only person to prod *away* from Delta, saying he was probably town when other people were voting him, then voted him anyway in frustration when Delta kept insisting on his course of action, even when others started agreeing with me that he was probably town and unvoting. I'll admit that may not have been the smartest way to play it, and I certainly am ambivalent on what to do about the whole Delta business, but out of all the possible angles you could take on me for it, "pushing a Delta train first and then jumping off when it wasn't backed" is not one that makes sense.
That is just an example though. The reporting style is mainly what bugs me. I've seen him do it in previous games, it bugged me there and it bugs me here.
I mentioned it because it's day 1 and mentioning anything of potential actual significance is tops.
Now that I think about it, the rest of Bard's latest post is also talking all about people others have found suspicious and restating the cases on them without really adding anything. That is enough for me to
##Unvote: Corwin
##Vote: Bard
for now. Sleep now.
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Excal: I feel like that if you are going to try to emphasize a point to someone and you have the first chance to do so, that you should do it with GUSTO (as Morrie would say)! I just think that you seem to be trying to have a presence without having a real presence, and I haven't seen much that makes me less confident in this. Of course it is Day 1.
Bardiche: I realize wanting immediate results and for the game to go faster. But a game has to start somewhere, and starting with at least more than dull jabber for a number of pages... well, whatever. I think you are taking Rat's statement to the extreme as well, I feel like he was just trying to brew discussion at a typically stagnating beginning of the game.
Alex: I think you're wrong in saying that the reactions to the situation are not worth considering because they involve Delta. Personally I find discussion on a subject, even if it is a psyduck subject, inherently better than discussing how someone doesn't exist. (Not that I have a problem with voting for people who don’t exist, just that talking about them isn’t very exciting.)
Sopko and Corwin and Kilga: Need to exist (more in Sopko/Kilga’s case, at all in Corwin’s). Just because this is supposed to be a game with short posts doesn’t mean you can just not do anything. <_<
And I made a mistake regarding Corwin. He logged on on the date that the game started, but it was early in the morning before the game had actually begun.
-
Could make excuses, but won't.
##Unvote: Ciato
Alex is drawing my attention at the moment, for reasons other people seem to be. He seemed to wait for other people to go after Delta for his rolecall before going in full force.
Bard seems to be leading conversation, but his arguments seem to go in circles as he attempts to play all sides. Granted, it's Day 1, so I'm not looking in his direction too much.
Kilga needs to be a lot more coherant in his posts, even if he's trying to be sarcastic.
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Sorry about the lack of unvoting. Don't know where that came from. ##Unvote: Corwin (and Alex, for posterity) while I'm thinking about it.
I believe Delta is silly town at this point, and not worth voting as anything more than a last resort (and the rules don't say anything about no majority = no lynch, so even that may be unnecessary).
I also believe everyone that voted for Delta is town, as his actions seem to make him more valuable to scum as an easy lynch further down the line rather than "wasting" him here.
Nothing on Corwin, obviously. I almost want to keep my vote on him just to try to avoid the extra death from a modkill, but that's not terribly helpful.
This leaves four people.
Hurricane Ike: Not a fan of his "no need to always be aggressive" line when he himself stated earlier that votes are retractable. Aggressive tends to get more results than passive. Page 1 comments lend themselves to "well hey I was ragging on him from the beginning" later on in the game, if such is necessary (even with the "I never truly believed he was scum" line - who is ever 100% confident their Day 1 vote choice is scum, anyway?).
Ice Woman: Accuses Excal of things she (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31299#msg31299) herself (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31361#msg31361) could be accused of. The rest of the Excal accusation post is spent stating facts.
Gandrayda: Doing just as much as me. I'm kind of curious as to why he didn't weigh in on Delta one way or the other.
Raging Heart: Pokes a whole bunch, but was at least willing to take one stand (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31385#msg31385). Never acknowledged Alex's explanation of his thought process - in fact, I'm wondering if he missed it altogether.
##Vote: Ciato for looking the worst of these four.
(300!)
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Excal (1): Ciato
Ciato (1): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Excal
Delta (2): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (1): Delta, Alex
Corwin (0): Delta, Alex
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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Bard - Everything you say about me is mostly correct, I was trying to focus on Delta and get others to do the same. I think you missed the point of why I was cagey about his defenders; at best, you can call Delta's play bad and have no clue about him, but that shouldn't really be shifting him more towards the 'townie' axis of things and that was something that needed quantification. So in fact I guess you might have been reading me wrong. That's a loaded question if there was ever one, too.
I don't really think you've been paying much attention to the reasons behind people's actions, as illustrated by your comments on Alex and also myself, really. It's all been mostly clear to me.
The other person I seriously don't like at the moment is Cid. He came in after Delta's post, went 'Let's look at the reactions to Delta' without really giving us anything himself, and since then, the only things he's done is ramble about Cor and lurkiness for a bit, and then ask Alex what he thinks about Bardiche. Neither of these are doing what he suggested should be done, and neither of them are terribly interesting in and of themselves, either. If anyone is hiding in plain sight, as it were, it's him. Would vote for him if I wasn't voting for Delta. May actually do this later even though I think Delta is worse, simply because nobody is biting on the former.
Lots of people are too succinct (Excal, Kilga, Sopko, Dread Thomas, offhand.)
I'm not really following Kilga's reason for voting Ciato, please elaborate.
Delta looks worse with every post he makes and you all know why.
MOD: Isn't Bardiche voting for Alex, not Dread Thomas?
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I believe Delta is silly town at this point, and not worth voting as anything more than a last resort (and the rules don't say anything about no majority = no lynch, so even that may be unnecessary).
I also believe everyone that voted for Delta is town, as his actions seem to make him more valuable to scum as an easy lynch further down the line rather than "wasting" him here.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You believe approximately half the game is town...on day one? Are you totally serious about that? I don't see how we have anywhere near enough information to make such a conclusion with confidence, and doing so seems highly suspect. It's also built on an assumption of how scum would play in this situation, which is unreliable at best given that we don't know who any of the scum players are and thus have no knowledge of the scum faction's M.O.
Glad to see you joining us, Soppy.
Alex stuff requires mulling over, as well as rereading of Bard posts to see whether or not I agree.
~
Muppy sez: You know what they say about making assumptions, right?
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Yeah, I forgot to remove the unvote. This has been a fantastic day for me on detail. Thanks. (rest assured no surprise hammers will happen)
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I'm torn on Cid's latest post. On the one, it doesn't reference Rat's point against him directly. However, it does provide an argument against someone... which is a case thats been put forward several times and answers none of the other questions Rat raised against him. Avoiding self-incrimination maybe? In the age of post warnings, missing Rat's post is no excuse. Gonna put the pressure on Cid.
##Vote: Cid
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Sorry, I sleep in.
Pegging him as town for now.
I don't think the Delta issue is a good basis for any lynch right now.
What is WIFOM?
##Vote: Delta
Do you understand why you are making it nearly impossible for us not to lynch you?
Alex seems to have foregone an epic switch with Delta’s bizarre questions. [...] The thing that makes me suspicious about this is that he’s gone under fire for defending Delta and then quickly puts a vote in for him after another Delta post.
+1
I am having serious trouble believing anything about Delta. I think it is impossible for him to be as well read as he claims, yet still not know what WIFOM is. Every post he makes, he hurts town more and digs himself deeper into a hole of being the only possible lynch for today...
What's so aggregious about not knowing WIFOM that flips you from 'pro-delta' to 'lynch delta'? What could scum possibly have to earn by pretending not to know an acronym?
What do you think of the debate surrounding you?
He can only deny it all as he has been doing thusfar. Making him to continue denying the same accusation over and over will only imprint his error in our minds and exacerbate the problem of it taking up all of day 1's focus.
I am concerned that he is eclipsing everything today
Yes, like that.
Why do you expect us to believe that you are telling the truth?
Delta cannot answer this question in a constructive fashion.
...as shown here:
I dont expect you to, but i want you to.
So some fairly pointless questions there which do more harm than good.
Alex is weird, but no vote change for now.
too.....many....words...argh. So hard.
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egregious*
I should read my posts before I post them. >.>
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Kilga, if there weren't numerous votes on Delta at the time I posted, I would have voted for him. I felt asking questions to Delta to try to get some information out of him when he has votes on him was a generally not a bad idea. My overarching concern with Excal's play reaches past just the Delta stuff and into... things I've already talked about. The point isn't just "oh noez he didn't vote for Delta", the point is that he is been sticking his toes in the water of inquiry in later posts as well as the Delta ones... but no further.
Rat raises a really good point about Cid. He feels like he is skirting the borderline as well, but at least he laid down a vote that wasn't a jokevote which shows us SOMETHING about him, so for right now he's somewhat suspicious, but not a pressing concern.
Bardiche... I find his logic hard to follow, but that's not especially unusual. I addressed this in the last post; I was more confused by his point than anything else, and would like some clarification.
Glad to see Sopko and Kilga back in the fray. While I disagree with Kilga's post of course, it does seem like he's made a legitimate effort to form a case which earns him points in my book. Not sure what to think of Sopko's Cid vote.
Will read Tom's post when I have more time!
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Rat: She accused Excal of votelessly prodding Delta, which she had been doing herself in the two posts I linked to. The rest of her post was some noncommittal wavering with some filler facts thrown in. Her other post was a little better bunch it still came off as a bunch of filler.
This will become moot later in this post, but that was my thought process at the time.
Cid: Perhaps the straight-up statement that "these people are town" is jumping a bit too far, but I do believe their actions were townier, which was why I tossed them for the purposes of that post.
Ciato: Upon rereading, I think I see what you mean. Excal does seem to poke more than you do, and you also have a meaningful vote out.
All right, I'll buy it.
##Unvote: Ciato
##Vote: Excal
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Curious. Why voting for "easy" lynch sign of town? Seems wifom, bad logic. No reason one or both scum didn't vote for Delta.
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Assuming there are indeed exactly two scum.
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I'm torn on Cid's latest post. On the one, it doesn't reference Rat's point against him directly. However, it does provide an argument against someone... which is a case thats been put forward several times and answers none of the other questions Rat raised against him. Avoiding self-incrimination maybe? In the age of post warnings, missing Rat's post is no excuse. Gonna put the pressure on Cid.
##Vote: Cid
Rat posted that while I was typing my little jab at Kilga, yes. I saw it, but was just about to leave the computer for a while and didn't feel like sticking around to redo my post. Even in Succinct Mafia, the Cid types slowly. And maybe Kilga's basic argument had appeared earlier, Soppy, but I don't think anyone expressed it as strongly as he did in that post I quoted. There's also the following Excal quote that aptly sums up my feelings on Kilga's theory:
Curious. Why voting for "easy" lynch sign of town? Seems wifom, bad logic. No reason one or both scum didn't vote for Delta.
Note that the above (and my preceding post) constitute my "reactions to Delta stuff" that Rat was looking for, or at least as much as I care to say about it right now.
~
Muppy edit: Kilga, how does speculation on the number of scum players answer Excal's post in any way?
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It doesn't directly address his statement, but I'm still curious as to how he knows there's exactly two scum. For what it's worth, his statement doesn't address the concerns Ciato raised.
As for addressing the statement directly, he can call it WIFOMy if he likes. I call it playing the numbers. Assuming Delta is town, who's the townie most beneficial to the scum cause come crunch time? Delta. Assuming Delta is town, if he gets lynched today, who will we study? Everyone who voted for him, because it happens every time.
Sure, any number of scum could be voting for Delta right now in an attempt to off him immediately. Is the accompanying risk as detailed above worth it? I wouldn't say so.
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What risk? We never actually really get down to who voted for who in Day 1. Especially if it's something where it makes a decent amount of sense for voting that way. As for how I know there's two scum? I don't. I posted while on shift because I really didn't like your PoV and had to fire it off before I got caught by management. And I'm not gonna spec further as there's no way that ends well right now.
That said, there is one reason two scum came to mind. It's because your argument suggests it, Kilga. Half of us voted for Delta, half did not. Assuming that scum didn't vote for him, and that Delta is town, then that means we can just axe everyone who refrained from voting Delta and Town wins easily. And, two makes it far less likely that there was any splitting than three.
Now, all of that said, I want to avoid hitting my limit, as well as actually read over this thread properly, and see what Ciato has to say.
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Excal (2): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (1): Soppy
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Excal
Delta (2): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (1): Delta, Alex
Corwin (0): Delta, Alex
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
It is 12 hours until deadline.
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How very interesting.
Lack of discussion re: Bard is saddening and a little disturbing.
Agree w/Sopko re: El Cid. I didn't really realize he'd failed to vote anyone but Delta. "As much as I care to say about it right now" - what?
Two scum is obvious from the player count and the fact that this is not high-role. Not sure why there is controversy here.
Dread Thomas - the answer is frustration. Too many words in THIS game?
Keeping vote on Bard in mostly symbolic gesture to get someone to talk about him. 12 hours is not much time now though.
FoS: Cid for not voting.
FoS: Someone out of the Rat/Ciato/Sopko/Excal pack. These four blend together too much and I don't trust that. They have all done one or two townish things but just not had much presence otherwise.
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That is just an example though. The reporting style is mainly what bugs me. I've seen him do it in previous games, it bugged me there and it bugs me here.
Are you serious going to rattle on about how I play the rest of this Mafia game? The goal here is to seperate the liars from the truthful ones and lynch them before they off you all - not to dissect someone's playstyle and keep going "I dislike it". There's a lot of playstyles I dislike, but that doesn't mean I need to state it twice in two pages, especially when playstyle should not be a deciding factor in lynches.
I mentioned it because it's day 1 and mentioning anything of potential actual significance is tops.
See above. The way I play should not be a reason to lynch me. Therefore, stating you dislike my playstyle, to me, only makes me annoyed with you for stating it multiple times.
Now that I think about it, the rest of Bard's latest post is also talking all about people others have found suspicious and restating the cases on them without really adding anything.
No one was suspicious of Carthrat, and no one had/has shown much suspicion about you, save me.
I find it interesting you keep going at me, though; you just posted again, urging people to talk about me, stating that it is disturbing no one's talked about me. Why? You seem to have jumped from pro-Delta, to anti-Delta, to anti-Corwin, to anti-me all in the course of three pages, and cite my post where I didn't aggressively attack anyone as a reason to vote on me.
Keeping my vote. Out of words.
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The way I play should not be a reason to lynch me.
Wait, what? Sure it should. That's... the reason to lynch people. Someone plays in a scummy way, you lynch them. Unless you possess a psychic lie detector, that is how the game goes. Playstyle is indicative of whether or not you are lying, and I think there is a decent probability that you are, because
A. your playstyle makes it very easy to conceal yourself by not taking stances, and
B. the things you have said have not been true, indeed what you said about me before was the opposite of true, which naturally makes me raise an eyebrow.
You seem to have jumped from pro-Delta, to anti-Delta, to anti-Corwin, to anti-me all in the course of three pages, and cite my post where I didn't aggressively attack anyone as a reason to vote on me.
Yes, absolutely.
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I can't really take anything away from the playstyle discussion just now (insofar as much as we're talking about whether or not playstyle factors into lynch decisions; it does, in fact, but people arguing that it somehow doesn't is too common for me to read as scummy in general.)
As far as Bardiche goes, I find him mildly worrisome because of the way he just didn't seem to get some things that were obvious to me, and the comments on a 'reporting' style of play are starting to ring true, since he seems to state a bunch of facts/things that happened but only makes an implied judgement call on them. The key problem is that he doesn't explain why actions as bad; what he's done is say 'you've been moving your vote around a lot. HAH!' without appearing to think about the reasons behind 'em. It doesn't give the impression he's actually hunting for clues so much as trying to make an appearance (and get others to work for him, I guess.) Not awful beyond awful, despite my verbosity, but still troublesome.
Dread Thomas appeared to shoot down a lot of what Alex said about Delta, yet kept a vote on him. I don't know what to make of that, please explain?
Excal looks bad for trying way too hard to find a 'reason' why we can conclude there are two scum after getting called for it. Justification after the fact is uncool.
Cid still looks significantly worse than all of the above due to sidelining, not voting, and generally seeming to try and push people into action without taking anything himself. I don't accept that what he's just posted is terribly sigificant or stance-taking. As promised, my vote now goes to him. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Cid
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Defense: The case against me is that I am not taking strong stands, because my present mood is detached and inquisitive as opposed to gung-ho and aggressive. And that I do not know who to aim for. If my previous words did not do the trick, then there's little need to waste more now. So, I acknowledge them, say I disagree with that assessment, and move on. By the way, Ciato. There were only two votes on Delta when you posted. Where was your gusto?
Now, as to who I'm looking at, there's Ciato, Kilga, Bard, Delta, and Rat.
Delta is the one I'm least suspicious of, but... I can't help but feel that we're being played somehow. Regardless, low priority.
Ciato/Rat. These two... their posts read clean, but something about them is definatly pinging my scumdar.
Finally, Bard and Kilga.
Kilga doesn't have much going on until page 3. In fact, his only contribution to that point is claiming not to find rolefishing offensive. On page 3, argues that only town voted for Delta (something he himself did not do, is he telling us something?) and claims odds, despite it being more likely the scum would split their votes so the lynch would tell us nothing. Or, y'know, just go organically so long as one of their own isn't on the block. Or even do an early sacrifice to give townie cred to the remainder. Honestly, it feels more like Kilga's trying to direct our eyes somewhere where there may be nothing to find.
Bardiche has been covering for Delta, and that worries me. Has also attacked folks who've been harder on Delta before erupting when Alex answered a question as to why he disliked Bard. Best case.
##Unvote: Rat, ##Vote: Bardiche
Rat Edit: I explain things, it's what I do.
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Excal (2): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (2): Soppy, Rat
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (1): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (2): Delta, Alex, Excal
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Due to my inability to find a replacement and with deadline so near, Corwin has been modkilled. His flip will be revealed at end of day.
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Well, if there is two scum, the smart thing to do would be to jump on a train. However, since there is three trains, they may be already on one of them. Im not accusing anyone (yet) but in my mind right now are the people on the three trains.
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Smart for who, Delta? The scum? Or town?
If you mean scum, then no, no it would not. Sure, they might accomplish something, but two random people dogpiling out of nowhere to get a last second lynch kinda draws eyes. Doing it earlier is likely to get them killed and ensure that the person in question does not get lynched.
Also, I wasn't aware that two people on a target constituted a train. Especially when we're getting close to eight hours left in the day territory.
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Well, if there is two scum, the smart thing to do would be to jump on a train. However, since there is three trains, they may be already on one of them. Im not accusing anyone (yet) but in my mind right now are the people on the three trains.
Thank you.
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It would be smart for scum, sorry. Damn I keep forgetting to preview my posts.
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Well, in my view anyway... it would allow them to have two targets. Things we should watch for now are people swapping from the people with 2 votes to other people with two votes, thus starting a train. However, it will be hard to know since innocents may do that as well.
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I love you. Let us run away together to a desert island. There, we can tell the truth to each other night and day, and day 1 will never come between us.
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I'm frightened...
Hold me?
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NO!
My love is for Deltaflyer2k8 posts: 51. (Soon to be posts: 52. I hope!)
You cannot come between us.
NO ONE CAN.
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And thus you conclude that, given the person x taking the action y, person x may be either scum or town.
BRILLIANCE
I will admit that I am completely flummoxed at this point. I have a kneejerk impulse to lynch Delta, it's still there, I still think he's worse than Cid (not only are his points... pointless, but they don't even address specific actions or people in the game!). I don't think he's going to get any better or give any clearer indications to his alignment than we have already. I think if he's still around he'll keep up a constant patter of meaningless statements oh god alex what are you doing I was trying to avoid being so deliciously cruel
screw it LYNCH DELTA ALREADY THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE WE MUST DO THIS YOU ALL KNOW WHY ##Unvote, ##Vote Delta
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NO!
No, Rat. You are the demons.
And then Delta was a zombie.
Seriously don't lynch him he's 99.9% sure town. Yes leaving him alive means we lose, but oh well, we lost this one in signups. We might as well try. I think Bard and Cid are most likely to be scum at the moment and an Excal or Kilga lynch would give tasty information.
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W...t...f...
I think Alex could be a jester if there is jesters allowed in this game. Either that or he is bored already... Also, Carthrat, i dont see you providing much information either about people having made only 3 posts in this game.
Anyways. Just to alert you guys, due to school starting today, I will not be as active as i was in the last 24 hours. Just thought you should know so that im not accused of lurking or anything.
I dont currently see any evidence against Bardiche, all he has done is a little meta-analysis and basically generalizing stuff we already know.
El Cid- Not quite sure where i stand with him, Has made some weird posts but has contributed quite a bit.
Alex- Could be scummy, certainly looks strange right now, Maybe jester?
Excal - Mostly neutral with excal. Not too sure either way.
Ciato- No probs here, i do think ciato is genuine town.
Kilga - mostly playing a bit too succinct for me. Also, mostly neutral
Rat- Made a sudden outburst just then, maybe trying to re-start a train or something? One to watch i think.
Others- not enough posts to really conclude anything.
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Delta's saved himself for me, with that series of posts. For today at least.
Cid, thanks for the rebuttal, but you still haven't put forth very much in the way of anything.
Bard still seems to be arguing in circles despite his vote.
The Alex and Delta guy love is disturbing.
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Ngh. I don't think things will improve, and the way I see it, either we ignore Delta pretty much forever, or we lynch him now. I prefer to lynch rather than ignore people, it's that simple. He might actually be a Jester (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlew9bltta3dv6n?from=Main.SoBadItsHorrible) and I'm seriously considering that...
...but I nonetheless think that's ridiculously unlikely. Still, that's the only real reason I can come up with to not lynch him right now, and wonder if others agree on that count.
If we don't lynch Delta, I say we lynch Cid for reasons I outlined earlier in this thread.
Sopko, are you actually suggesting that Delta's half-hearted List'o'dudes (which doesn't feature a solid attack or stance, which has stuff factually wrong, which doesn't qualify his thoughts with reference or evidence, and which has opinions that, in my view at least, are simply untrue, such as Cid contributing a lot) somehow clears him in any way, shape or form? Why?
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No, his flash of clear thinking and logic on this page does. It's worth noting for later, but it keeps me from going after him today when I've been on Cid.
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Dare I ask for you to quote the relevant segment(s)?
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Dread Thomas appeared to shoot down a lot of what Alex said about Delta, yet kept a vote on him. I don't know what to make of that, please explain?
Yeah, I ran out of words, and couldn't explain it.
And to alex: "too many words" meant 'I've used too many words (and I have none left)'. Not 'there are too many words'.
I felt that Alex's dodgy flip-flop behaviour wasn't enough to justify a vote change away from Bard (who had by contrast been acting blatantly anti-town).
And even if I did want to vote for Alex I didn't have enough words left to fully explain it.
But given the circumstances, I felt it was better to stay on Bard.
<->
Corwin has been officially modkilled, and time is ticking. Unlike previous games with unlimited timers (which I've grown used to) we have to keep an eye on the clock.
I can't do the maths properly, but I figure we're around the half way point by now, so it's around time to start narrowing things down.
Excal, El Cid, and Bard are all leading on measly 2 votes each. Personally I don't think we should so easily let Delta off the hook, but consensus is moving towards those three. Unless anyone is going to get back on the Delta train, I'm going to move my vote onto one of them, because missing the lynch deadline is the worst we can do.
//Rat Ninja//
Right, I'm happy with a Delta lynch. Failing that, I'd also like to lynch Cid, but for different reasons than the Rat says. I agree with sidelining, and reading through Cid's posts amazed me as to how little he commented on the actual issues. It's mostly posts about what WIFOM stands for etc.
< 300 {THIS IS SPARTA}
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Crap, I meant Delta* not Bard
...really should proof-read.
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Rat-chan, are you still seriously trying to get my life partner Delta2k8 Posts: 52 (YESSS!) lynched?
Do you think he is actually scum?
If so, why?
In the meantime I must sail the sea with him, to a faraway land where everyone is scum or maybe not.
5-ish hours to deadline, people, let's get moving.. As previously stated I'm down with Bard or Cid. Excal falls into my second tier with Kilga, I think he is less likely to be scum based on his actions at the start of the day.
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Holy crap, 5 hours? I thought we had.. 20ish. Ok, I suck at time-zone-figuring-out.
I'm against a Bard lynch, his behaviour matches previous games, he hasn't said anything scummy, he looks town, etc.
I'm happy to leave my vote on Delta or go after Cid, BUT can we please choose ASAP 'cos I want to go to sleep. I have work in the morning *grumbles*
looking at the numbers, it looks like Cid is the go. Anyone else want to weigh in on this? Against Cid? Pro-Excal?
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However, since there is three trains, they may be already on one of them. Im not accusing anyone (yet) but in my mind right now are the people on the three trains.
Well, in my view anyway... it would allow them to have two targets. Things we should watch for now are people swapping from the people with 2 votes to other people with two votes, thus starting a train. However, it will be hard to know since innocents may do that as well.
May or may not be true, of course, but he's merely stating this and not using it as an argument for a vote (which he does need to do). I'm not going to be ignoring Delta forever, like you seem to think people will. But you have to choose someone. Unless Delta really tips his hand or adequate evidence for someone else comes up, I'm sticking to Cid for now.
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Agree w/Sopko re: El Cid. I didn't really realize he'd failed to vote anyone but Delta. "As much as I care to say about it right now" - what?
Because I don't live for Mafia; I'm not on the board 24/7 and had other things to do. Really all there is to it and you're making too much out of the statement.
Two scum is obvious from the player count and the fact that this is not high-role. Not sure why there is controversy here.
Never considered it controversial myself, just a pointless sideline that failed to address the actual question directed at Kilga.
FoS: Cid for not voting.
Ciato and Tom have also only voted once. The fact is that it's day one and I haven't been solidly convinced of anyone's guilt. Decided to only stick someone with a vote when I'm sure it'll do some good. Ciato plays this way every game and it's rather irksome that I'm suddenly being called out on it.
Bard playstyle stuff.
Augh. The trouble with this, Alex, is that it leads you to the same conclusions every time, and relying on it overly much can blind you to the specifics of a particular game. (Sorta like you setting off my scumdar every single game I play with you). Also, you want to quit putting the actual content of your posts in tiny print? It's annoying.
~
Right, I'm happy with a Delta lynch. Failing that, I'd also like to lynch Cid, but for different reasons than the Rat says. I agree with sidelining, and reading through Cid's posts amazed me as to how little he commented on the actual issues. It's mostly posts about what WIFOM stands for etc.
Oh, come on. That's blatant misrepesentation. I spent all of one paragraph talking about WIFOM, in direct response to Delta asking about it.
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And, because we're nearing the deadline:
##Vote: Delta
Reasons?
A: It's obviously my best course of action to see that someone else gets lynched (I know I'm town, blah blah blah). This is pretty much Mafia 101 and he's one of the only other players who stands a chance of getting a majority vote (there's also Excal, but I don't really see a case against him).
B: Initial rolefishing weirdness. I hate going after newbies just for doing things we don't expect, but that was definitely odd.
C: He's been all over the place for the last page or so, and there's been so much discussion surrounding him that I consider this the most informative lynch we could make if we turn out to be wrong about his alignment.
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Re: Alex
I always play this way. I often summarize what we/I already know and then agree or disagree. Why this has suddenly become worrisome is beyond me, and if my playstyle is all you have on me then I'll not waste further post space to arguing this.
Re: Rat
Point taken. I assume it be obvious too much. Jumping rapidly from one to another target makes it feel like one has a very crumbly basis for pushing for lynch. Getting off a ship at the drop of a coin feels like trying to see where you can and cannot garner support. And that is why I voiced dissent for that course of action. Sorry for being too succinct on that matter, I need to learn to state things more to the point.
Re: Vote
Alex's thought of train which I had previously not given response to portrays he voted Delta "out of frustration" and then proceeded to throw the vote on Corwin, and then on me. His "small font" messages right now are, first off, annoying, and further confuse me since he continues to press that "Delta is 99.9% town" or something similar. It further confuses me on why in the bloody hell he voted Delta to begin with, because "frustration" seems an unconventional motive given past motivations for lynching people.
Re: Delta
Still don't see him as scum. Maybe because I know him on a personal level and don't see him as crafty. Last game he didn't last to Day 2; I at least want to grant him that enjoyment this time around.
Vote stays on Alex for his dodgy behaviour from before and continued... Weird behaviour this page around.
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-He's posting like a crazy, careless maniac.
-He's not actually reading posts in this thread (or even counting them correctly) if his own responses tell me anything.
-Despite apparently having thoughts on things, he's not putting his foot down on anything, especially this late in the day.
Delta's made bad calls at the start of the game with regard to claiming and his supposed knowledge of the game. I don't believe he can possibly claim to be well-read and play the same way he does.
His commentary and insight have been on patently ridiculous things. His counterattacks against what's been put before him fail miserably (look at what he says about me and you in his last post, for crying out loud.)
He has virtually never commented on the game in any meaningful sense, instead making generic statements that target nobody. His last post is an exception, but it contains errors and judgements that are too far from my own for me to believe.
I'm going after Cid because I feel he's been hanging back on the sidelines, not really coming forward to make a solid case, as well as subtly encourage others down paths of thought he himself doesn't seem to traverse. Delta has done similar things in presenting scenarios and apparently inviting the rest of us to make judgements on them without taking any clear stand himself.
My desire to lynch him is borne from is a kneejerk response to the way he posts, I will grant, and I'm not without hestitation here afterwards. But I've read his stuff and I can't believe he's attempting to scumhunt. Combine with my above thoughts, I'm lead to my decision.
I'd like to turn this around on you. Why should I drop the vote on Delta?
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Excal (2): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (1): Soppy, Rat
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (3): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (2): Delta, Alex, Excal
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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Well I can't be accused of misrepresentation and not back up my facts with EVIDENCE. That would be un-lawyer-like of me.
Assertion: El Cid has posted little of substance.
Detail: He has only explained Game Mechanics (WIFOM, Why Roleclaiming Is Bad), and Corwin's absence from the game.
POSTS:
#1: joke vote
#2: more jokes
#3: WIFOM explanation, Gameplay Mechanic explanation about Roleclaiming.
#4: More explanation about why roleclaims are unhelpful. Talk about how Cor is absent.
#5: Talk about how Cor was in a chat room.
#6: Suggestion to retract Corwin votes. Asks for elaboration from Alex re: Bard’s playstyle.
#7: Two lines of comment on something Kilga said. Then says he needs to think more about Alex & re-read Bard’s posts.
#8: Looks like he’s saying things, but really he isn’t. Points people to his other posts. Asks Kilga about # of players.
#9 – most recent
I'll give you posts #1 and #2 for free.
Post #3 was game mechanics.
Post #4 was more game mechanics, and about how Corwin was absent. Corwin's absence is nothing more than an observation of a game mechanic (because it could never be used to root out scum).
Posts #5 and #6 continue talking about how Corwin is absent.
Slight content at the end of #6, but not major.
So, posts #4-#6 are fluff.
I'll give you post #7, that has content. Though it completely ignores most of the hot topics of the day.
Post #8 goes back to fluff.
And here we are at post 9, which I will not include (as it came after my assertion).
Conclusion: 1/5 of your posts contributed to the game in a meaningful way. That means 80% fluff. This is not including your first two posts.
Recommendation: I support a Cid lynch as a Delta alternative.
300!
Fuck triple ninja'd. Will post, read, re-post.
Fuck, re-ninja'd.
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Small text had no real content anyhow. Lighten up.
Ciato has only voted once, but her vote is serious and she's been talking about it and attempting to build a case. Cid's stuck to Delta, my honey-covered giblet of manturkey, and I can't help but see it as a little less in the effort department and a little more at odds with what he'sbeen saying in your posts. Tom you have a point on, but - it's Tom. Lynching him is only slightly more productive than lynching Delta. I haven't seen what I'd say is ScumTom so far.
Cid is right in that I'd like to lynch Ciato, Bard, Tom, Delta and some others right off the bat every game for how they tend to play, but that is a discussion for another time and place. Bard's style only became a real, votable issue in this game for me when he started using it to misstate facts, not present any original content and not justify his votes.
Also the rules in this particular game call for active participation, which makes me want to insta-lynch anyone using the "I don't live for Mafia and won't be posting much" defense. It's never an excuse for lack of voting, and that goes triple for this game.
Rat: You should drop the vote on Delta because unless the scumteam is Corwin/Delta, Scum Delta would have a partner advising him and his behavior is just not consistent with that.
##Unvote: Bard
##Vote: Cid
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Maybe because I know him on a personal level and don't see him as crafty. Last game he didn't last to Day 2; I at least want to grant him that enjoyment this time around.
That's a really really really bad motivation for this game. I'm sorry to say it, but it's true. That will come back and bite you later, if it doesn't do so right now.
..ok there's not really anything new there for me to comment on, despite getting ninja'd like crazy. I guess it's to be expected when I spent ages doing analysis posts.
---
I'm going to bed in 10 minutes, unless I see votes slide over to Cid then I'm leaving my vote on Delta. it's 3 to 1, so I don't see that happening. Bardiche votes are actually out-weighing Cid votes now.
But maybe people will change their minds after they see that Cid really only talked about game mechanics and about how Corwin hadn't said anything? Who can say. 7 minutes~
PS. that dash near the end of my previous post was actually the word '300' in ultra small font XD
Ninja'd by Alex, who does exactly that. Jumps to Cid. Well I'll be.
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Maybe because I know him on a personal level and don't see him as crafty. Last game he didn't last to Day 2; I at least want to grant him that enjoyment this time around.
That's a really really really bad motivation for this game. I'm sorry to say it, but it's true. That will come back and bite you later, if it doesn't do so right now.
I don't mind getting lynched for wanting to have a friend enjoy the game. I'll be very clear on this.
Alex! Sorry you feel misrepresented, it's how I interpret your posts. I have no clue who of you guys to trust, so forgive me if I assume lies and deceptive tactics from everyone and view your posts as such.
Alex makes a good comment in regards to Delta's "innocence", for as far as you are willing to believe it. If he was scum, scumbuddy/ies would advise him, or they'd be leaving him to die here. It further supports my belief that Delta isn't crafty enough to be laying such deep traps in his posts that none of us can really see it. He's just being oblivious.
How much time left, mod?
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Alex, care to quantify your vote on Cid?
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but - it's Tom. Lynching him is only slightly more productive than lynching Delta. I haven't seen what I'd say is ScumTom so far....
...I'd like to lynch Ciato, Bard, Tom, Delta and some others right off the bat every game for how they tend to play....
So very mean ;-;
Good point about Delta's scum partner, but there's always the possibility of just plain bad advice (or more likely, poor execution of the advice). Or just not listening to advice. But considering we had a night 0 (which I only just remembered), a more well-behaved scum Delta is likely.
Rat, I'd like to know your opinion (if it's changed) on Cid vs Delta please. If I don't hear it soon, I'm leaving my vote on Delta & going to sleep for the rest of the mafia day.
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Throughout the game Cid has commented on cases in a theoretical sense and given the illusion of being an active participant, but has not actually taken any positions of his own, except against Delta, whom I view as very, ah, "sexy" town handing himself out as a mislynch on a platter. In contrast to Rat, who has explained his logical reasons for pushing Delta all along and taken other positions, Cid has just quietly left his vote on Delta all game until now.
Cid's last two posts are entirely defensive and make use of several tactics I find questionable, including the "I don't have time" excuse and saying that Delta's lynch would be informative. (It wouldn't, he's playing so erotically either way.)
PS: Sandbag is an item in Brawl, not a good gaming technique. :(
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Cid is right in that I'd like to lynch Ciato, Bard, Tom, Delta and some others right off the bat every game for how they tend to play, but that is a discussion for another time and place.
On the contrary, I think it's wholly relevant if there's a possibility that this tendency is unduly influencing your vote.
I'll also note that your assertion that a scum Delta would have a colleague telling him what to do to be misguided at best. Sometimes scum don't collaborate well, sometimes they fuck up, sometimes they just don't talk at all. Making assumptions about scum behavior is dangerous.
Tom: That's better! Still disagree with you about how much of my posts are fluff, but that breakdown is a damn sight better than just saying "He's only talked about WIFOM," which was blatantly not true. Also, I consider it an obligation to answer any basic Mafia questions a new player asks promptly and as comprehensively as I can, and dislike seeing this used against me.
Muppy edit: Ninja'd. Will read in a sec.
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Cid's last two posts are entirely defensive and make use of several tactics I find questionable, including the "I don't have time" excuse and saying that Delta's lynch would be informative. (It wouldn't, he's playing so erotically either way.)
God forbid I should respond when someone accuses me of something. And you know what? I'm not going to apologize for not living on the damned board. Not everyone's as hardcore as you, Alex. You need to deal with it and move on.
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Cid's last two posts are entirely defensive and make use of several tactics I find questionable, including the "I don't have time" excuse and saying that Delta's lynch would be informative. (It wouldn't, he's playing so erotically either way.)
God forbid I should respond when someone accuses me of something. And you know what? I'm not going to apologize for not living on the damned board. Not everyone's as hardcore as you, Alex. You need to deal with it and move on.
Personal attack. My vote is absolutely sealed.
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Frankly, Soppy, I consider it a astatement of fact. I've seen him pursue suspects like this in multiple games: press the player until they crack, then assume they're scum because they cracked. It never, ever gets results. All it does is piss off other townies. It's been my experience in nearly every game that town are vastly more likely to react to pressure by stressing out than are scum, which makes the entire attitude counter productive.
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I know, but it's also true that there are better ways to react than to resort to what you did. It's not like he's been dogging you an entire game of multiple days, nor has he been the only one pressing you, or been the one pressing you the most. Cracking like that Day 1 is just... yeah, and personal attacks are more counter-productive.
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Also, calling someone "hardcore" doesn't constitute a personal attack in my eyes. It actually wouldn't surprise me at all if Alex agreed with that assessment, and the fact that you jumped on it so quickly as a justification for your vote when your comments on me prior to that had been very thin indeed is quite suspicious. Enough so that I'd switch my vote if I thought there was a realistic chance of building support prior to deadline.
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Bardiche's attitude on the game is silly, you don't let people live only because you want them to enjoy the game. I don't think anyone is really thinking Delta is the most devious snake in the urn, either.
I can understand the point about him not having a scum partner. I'm surprised, however, that Alex didn't mention it until now, given his comments about Delta taking place way earlier. I also don't necessarily think a partner would help him out all that much, especially with potential timezone difference preventing real-time aid.
I don't like being pressured to make up Tom's mind (and that's dangerous for him to do, seeing as he doesn't know my alignment. Don't give others direct control over your vote like that!)
I'm very tentatively switching to Cid. I'm willing to entertain that Delta could've played better with a partner, as well as that his play may not be malicious in nature (as it was certainly very clumsy if so.) I, too, haven't liked Cid's latest responses (there were a number of other possible trains floating around, i.e. Bard and Excal, yet no mention of them when he jumps to Delta. If he's voting to save his skin, I'd like to think he's looked at the other possibilities.)
##Unvote, ##Vote Cid
Ninja'd. If Cid is aware of Alex's modus operandi, why does he post like he's played right into it? And on the other hand, well, I agree with Soppy, Alex has not been as forceful or hyperaggressive as I've seen him elsewhere, so this feels kinda made up to me.
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Uh, wow, except I'm totally not doing that this game. If you think this is me pressuring you, Cid... I don't know what to say. It's not. I pressured Bard, a bit, and he actually responded kinda well. You, I'm being more passive than I probably should, and mainly agreeing with the case Sopko put out - which you seem to have ignored entirely in favor of attacking me and painting yourself, quite unwarranted, as a victim of the big bad Alex. While now coming in and saying "I'm stressing out so I'm townie mmkay?" I have to say that does give me pause as well, but out of all the reactions in this game so far, this one looks the most fake.
Who do you think is scum?
Rat: I didn't mention it before because I thought it was obvious to the point of being self-explanatory. And even without a partner, I have a hard time seeing anyone be as gorgeous a hunk of a man as Delta has if they were scum.
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Rat: I'm switching my vote to Cid not because I think that you're right, but because we only have about 4 hours left and I can't accept the risk of not getting a lynch due to running out of time.
Delta was my #1 target, El Cid was my #2. If I don't switch my vote from Delta to El Cid then there is a real danger of town missing out on its lynch.
I had already decided that if numbers were to swing towards El Cid over Delta, I would support it.
It's all in the numbers. As such, recent events between Alex & El Cid have not been factored into this vote change. I wouldn't know how to judge it anyway.
##UnVote: Delta
##Vote: Cid
Cid is (probably) at -1. I suggest roleclaims etc. Beware accidental hammer, there will be no forgiveness.
Ps. Sorry Cid, if you are town.
Bed time! Long overdue..
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Ninja'd. If Cid is aware of Alex's modus operandi, why does he post like he's played right into it? And on the other hand, well, I agree with Soppy, Alex has not been as forceful or hyperaggressive as I've seen him elsewhere, so this feels kinda made up to me.
Case on Bard hinges on the same old newbie playstyle differences that I'm sick to death of. I don't see any point in pursuing him right now. I'm also satisfied with Excal's contributions and don't consider him suspicious (I've even said that before, Rat).
As for the bolded sentence, knowing about this tendency won't suddenly make it not be irritating. Consider it the latest episode in an ongoing, multigame dialogue between the two of us which is typically acrimonious. If I'd really flipped out, there would've been an OMGUS vote to show for it, and then you'd really be justified in going after me.
Speaking of votes:
##Unvote: Delta
##Vote: Hunter Sopko
I know it's late in the day to be changing, but him leaping on one remark with very little in the way of contribution beforehand looks very much like scum trying to take advantage of a misunderstanding to hammer a townie.
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Sorry guys but today I am extremely busy. I can't really read what has gone on the in the last 10~ or so hours much but I will check in about 12:30 (CST, so about an hour from lynch?) to make sure we get a lynch. I will hammer or do whatever to make sure we get something productive done today, but gotta go now.
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Uh, wow, except I'm totally not doing that this game. If you think this is me pressuring you, Cid... I don't know what to say. It's not. I pressured Bard, a bit, and he actually responded kinda well. You, I'm being more passive than I probably should, and mainly agreeing with the case Sopko put out - which you seem to have ignored entirely in favor of attacking me and painting yourself, quite unwarranted, as a victim of the big bad Alex. While now coming in and saying "I'm stressing out so I'm townie mmkay?" I have to say that does give me pause as well, but out of all the reactions in this game so far, this one looks the most fake.
I don't actually consider this stressing out. I consider it criticizing a playstyle I find highly questionable. But that's neither here and there and my general distaste for your tactics may be coloring things (it wouldn't be the first time). However, it was mainly this quote that bothere me:
Also the rules in this particular game call for active participation, which makes me want to insta-lynch anyone using the "I don't live for Mafia and won't be posting much" defense. It's never an excuse for lack of voting, and that goes triple for this game.
It seemed to suggest that total commitment to Mafia is the only acceptable M.O., and I find this quite unreasonable.
Who do you think is scum?
It's day one. I'm not convinced of anyone's scumminess, and taking such a stance this early in the game would be ludicrous. However, I'm increasingly of the opinion that Soppy is a good candidate. To wit, his "case" on me which you criticize me for not responding to:
A) The initial post is here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=31461;topic=1900.50;num_replies=118;sesc=f444112eb6e1ab2b08dd422048062370 (and I did respond to that, here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=31482;topic=1900.50;num_replies=118;sesc=f444112eb6e1ab2b08dd422048062370).
B) Past that, his only support is here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=31526;topic=1900.75;num_replies=118;sesc=f444112eb6e1ab2b08dd422048062370, and even that is little more than a Talk Moar jab. This is all he's had to say about me (and frankly, I think I've posted plenty), which makes him recently leaping one remark and acting as though it's faultless proof of scumminess look...opportunistic, shall we say.
As for roleclaim? I'm vanilla. Shock, awe.
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Er... can i just say something out-of-game for a second?
Alex, please stop saying that you love me. You do not know me or anything. I am actually 13 and seeing that sort of stuff is just... weird and disconcerting.
Back in-game.
Bardiche's attitude on the game is silly, you don't let people live only because you want them to enjoy the game. I don't think anyone is really thinking Delta is the most devious snake in the urn, either.
Bard simply wants me to be able to really play, is that a crime?
I can understand the point about him not having a scum partner. I'm surprised, however, that Alex didn't mention it until now, given his comments about Delta taking place way earlier. I also don't necessarily think a partner would help him out all that much, especially with potential timezone difference preventing real-time aid.
I dont have a scum partner because, quite simply, I am not scum. Believe it or not, its the truth.
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Er... can i just say something out-of-game for a second?
Alex, please stop saying that you love me. You do not know me or anything. I am actually 13 and seeing that sort of stuff is just... weird and disconcerting.
As an aside, this made me laugh out loud. Thanks, I needed that.
Bardiche's attitude on the game is silly, you don't let people live only because you want them to enjoy the game. I don't think anyone is really thinking Delta is the most devious snake in the urn, either.
Bard simply wants me to be able to really play, is that a crime?
It's not Playing to Win, but I have to admit that I sympathize here. With the caveat, of course, that Bard really should vote Delta if he thought he was scum (but I'd hope that goes without saying).
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By "this particular game" I really did mean this particular game, not Mafia in general. I was referencing this:
Be civil. Be active. Very important. Since your word count isn't going to be that high, your content and your punctuality to the game will presumably make up for it. With days clocking at 48 hours, I'd say you're expected to view and respond to the thread and current happenings at least three times a day, preferably more.
With the mod having put that in the rules, I think it is in very poor taste to claim time excuses in this specific game.
Delta: It is a joke (and a bit of me trying not to break certain other rules.) Please do not take it seriously.
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I know (read: Pray to god) that it was a joke but if you could please stop it since i dont find it funny to be honest. Thank you.
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By "this particular game" I really did mean this particular game, not Mafia in general. I was referencing this:
Be civil. Be active. Very important. Since your word count isn't going to be that high, your content and your punctuality to the game will presumably make up for it. With days clocking at 48 hours, I'd say you're expected to view and respond to the thread and current happenings at least three times a day, preferably more.
With the mod having put that in the rules, I think it is in very poor taste to claim time excuses in this specific game.
I still think you're applying this with a zeal that is uncalled for. I think I've been sufficiently active in this game and it's quite bothersome to get so much flak for not immediately responding to someone.
Of course, if I was to be totally frank, I'd say that playing Growlanser 5 was more attractive than typing another post at that point in time, and I felt I was in decent shape anyway since I'd already posted a couple times that evening. But I doubt that would help much. The attitude I'm getting from you here, Alex, is that I have no excuse to do anything other than make Mafia posts if I'm at home and conscious. You can see why I find this problematic, I hope?
Anyway, since you asked, and I since I answered: what do you think about Soppy? Personally, I find his presence very light; this might be Succinct Mafia, but he seems to restrict himself to one-liners.
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Re: Delta
I'd vote him if I thought him to be scum. I don't think it to be so.
Re: Day 1
So... We somehow have steered off a Delta train and commenced on a Cid train. The Cid case is as wonky willy as any Day 1 case, but it's not altogether unwarranted. Cid has been laying low and making only some off remarks, which I fully agree with EvilTom on. I also concur with Cid's point that Sopko is being succinct as well. Frankly, it feels like town getting their last thoughts out... Because I can't see the profit in scum at pointing at another and claiming them scum, since there's a high chance most everyone will disregard it/doubt the truthfulness.
I stand by my case against Alex. I also second Sopko's request of Alex to explain why he voted Cid, because it's almost looking like more of the wishy washy jumpiness I observed (or think to observe) earlier.
Not willing to hammer Cid - Frankly, I don't think right now that that is the best course of action. We still have some time left.
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I see why you find it problematic. I don't see why you're getting that vibe from me, I don't think you should get it just from my saying "Don't throw time excuses around" but oh well.
Soppy is pretty low on my list, actually near lowest, because he presented an unusual case that, on review, I agreed with and found very helpful. I think he put it very well to say that you were lurking in plain sight, and had he not posted that, I possibly wouldn't have ever noticed. While his presence has been low, his contribution has been one of the most important of the day and shows good, close reading on his part. In attempting to pick up your viewpoint and visualize Soppy as scum and Cid as town, I cannot see why Soppy would choose Cid to go after in the manner he did.
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Ninja Mafia edit - Bard, I explained immediately, two posts below where Sopko asked.
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... Wow, this is succinct mafia, how did I miss it? Yeah, that was pretty stupid on my behalf. Scrolled over it, no excuse, etc.
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I see why you find it problematic. I don't see why you're getting that vibe from me, I don't think you should get it just from my saying "Don't throw time excuses around" but oh well.
Soppy is pretty low on my list, actually near lowest, because he presented an unusual case that, on review, I agreed with and found very helpful. I think he put it very well to say that you were lurking in plain sight, and had he not posted that, I possibly wouldn't have ever noticed. While his presence has been low, his contribution has been one of the most important of the day and shows good, close reading on his part. In attempting to pick up your viewpoint and visualize Soppy as scum and Cid as town, I cannot see why Soppy would choose Cid to go after in the manner he did.
Bolding mine. "One of the most important of the day?" Is it really? How can you be so sure of that when you don't know my alignment? You're approaching the entire subject assuming that I'm scum. This is terribly circular logic, Alex, and is especially bad for day one. You really can't see why scum would take advantage of something that could be misconstrued as a breach of conduct in order to safely lynch a townie? And I'll reiterate that this is the only argument Sopko's pushed all day.
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No, I'm not assuming you're scum. I'm not even anywhere near 50% confidence in you being scum. It's day 1. All day 1 cases are by definition bad, with extremely rare exceptions. Just higher than everyone else right now. I'm saying that even if you're town, it was a valuable contribution on his part because it is a valid case and shows he was reading the thread and paying attention to things beyond Delta and various Delta fallout (which, while not unimportant, are less important to me than non-Delta cases).
And I too will reiterate how strange it is that you are continually talking to and responding to and pressing on me, rather than Sopko himself. Why does he need another argument when it's day 1, the one he's got is really pretty good, and nothing else is on the table except Delta and a bit of spatting with Bard and Excal (mostly over Delta)?
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And I too will reiterate how strange it is that you are continually talking to and responding to and pressing on me, rather than Sopko himself. Why does he need another argument when it's day 1, the one he's got is really pretty good, and nothing else is on the table except Delta and a bit of spatting with Bard and Excal (mostly over Delta)?
The explanation for the first point is quite simple: you're responding, Soppy is not. He made his comment about me making a personal attack, then vanished and left us to deal with the fallout. This is emblematic of how he's played the whole game. In retrospect, it amuses me greatly that I got so much heat for not responding to something promptly last night and saying in response that I'd basically had enough Mafia for the day...yet Sopko had a 24-hour absence between pages one and three and had only this to say when he returned:
Could make excuses, but won't.
I'm not sure what lesson I should draw from this. Don't try to make explanations for your absence and no one will notice you were gone?
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Excal (2): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (4): Soppy, Rat, Alex, Rat, Dread Thomas
Soppy (1): El Cid
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (0): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (1): Delta, Alex, Excal
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Guys, try to keep it civil. I will say that El Cid is not (and has never been) in any danger of a modkill from inactivity from all that I've seen. El Cid: I understand your frustration, but I don't think that Alex's comment was ever meant to be a slight against your activity in particular so much as it is not liking seeing time excuses in general used as a defense, s'all.
Deadline is roughly one and a half hours.
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What Laggy said. I prefer people to be straightforward and give no excuses, which I freely admit also makes me favor Soppy over Cid here.
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Bloody hell. Why do you people post so much while I sleep?
I'll spend time on responding to people talking about my posts on Day 2. Now's not the time.
Between Sopko's "active lurking" accusation, the assertion that Delta would be the most informative lynch today (when, in fact, he'd probably be the least) and the aggravation over being called on not posting (look at Sopko and myself - we got called on it, understood why, and it ended up not being a problem), I'm fine with a Cid lynch today.
##Unvote: Excal
##Vote: El Cideon
That's L-1.
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I COULD have said that I was still in the process of moving, still didn't have constant internet access and working 9 hours a day Monday into Tuesday, but would it have honestly mattered? It's an excuse. It shouldn't really matter what I said, but I acknowledged the absence instead of trying to hide it.
To be honest though, this whole exchange has brought me full-circle on Alex. Day 1 or not, I can't say my position is utterly defensible, though I choose to stick with it. He's been oddly defensive of other people. I'm going to attribute this to just a change in playstyle, but just wanted it known.
Kilga: At least it takes about five or so minutes to check over multiple pages of posts! Best. Mafia. Ever.
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With an hour and a half left, I don't see much chance of turning things around here. Going to check out for a bit, so it seems prudent to leave some final comments before doing so. I don't expect to be alive when I get back. It'd be great if I was wrong about that, but it seems unlikely. The first person to denounce this as defeatism or scum giving up gets hit with my shiny, new Muppy Brand Orbital Death Laser. Seriously, I'm at minus one to hammer with a deadline looming. Has anyone ever talked their way out of a situation like this? Even if people had doubts, it's too late in the day to build another train. Besides, I've been trying to claw my way out of the hole for the past four hours with little noticeable improvement. Anything I could try, I have done.
Alex: You may say you're not convinced, but you know what? I've responded to questions when asked, defended myself when necessary, pointed out someone else I find suspicious (who has yet to respond to any of my criticisms), and interacted with or commented on nearly everyone by this point. If there was anything I could've done to change your mind, it would've happened by now. I can only conclude that you're either not willing to consider alternatives or scum just wanting to see me hang. Pity I have such trouble discerning which is which.
Also, it was never my intention to "make excuses." It's in my nature to explain things and try to provide people with a better understanding of my actions. It's unfortunate that you hold this against me, Alex, but we do seem to hail from different dimensions.
~
Highly suggest that you all lynch Sopko tomorrow if he doesn't provide something substantial on day two. He's done very little today, despite Alex's confidence to the contrary. Sopko has primarily cruised under the radar, made one comment that happened to get the attention of one of the board's most prolific posters, and sat back to let the rest of the group do his dirty work ever since.
I'm looking at Ciato, too. She is notably reserved as scum (metagaming, but I think it's a valid observation that she's less comfortable playing non-Town). I believe she made some solid arguments early on in the game, but has been laggardly in the last day or so. Her announcement that she'll be away doesn't necessarily help matters. As it has been said, legitimate excuses are great for scum.
I'm increasingly less suspicious of Delta, ironically. I have nothing substantial to back this up, though; it's just a gut reaction to recent happenings, and my instincts are notoriously unreliable.
I'll stick around for 5-10 minutes if anyone has any last-minute questions.
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Between Sopko's "active lurking" accusation, the assertion that Delta would be the most informative lynch today (when, in fact, he'd probably be the least) and the aggravation over being called on not posting (look at Sopko and myself - we got called on it, understood why, and it ended up not being a problem), I'm fine with a Cid lynch today.
Perhaps you misunderstand. I don't believe I was lurking, which is why the whole matter bothered me.
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Oh. I also don't believe I've ever said you were lurking or absent, Cid. I implied you were being evasive in that first post, but not absent.
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*Now* discussion comes? Cid, this is why I've been voting you, this is the sort of stuff you would've done better to post, like, a day ago. Instead of sticking to Delta and what looked like an OMGUS-based "Look at Soppy!" cry until an hour before deadline. Argh. Thinking.
I hate how every game it feels like I'm being crucified simply for being vocal, by whoever I vote on and all the people going "Look, he's voting and talking!"
At this point I have no clue what to think of Cid's post. Nor of Soppy's.
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Kilga: At least it takes about five or so minutes to check over multiple pages of posts! Best. Mafia. Ever.
I read slowly and have no attention span whatsoever. It takes me at least 10 minutes just to read one page, and half the time I miss several important things that require me to go back and re-read that page.
Before that post, I had spent the better part of 45 minutes going through everything that I had missed, and time was rapidly becoming an issue, so I felt it more prudent to make sure we lynched someone (it helped that it was a lynch I agreed with, based on general mental summaries of what I had read) than to go over every post again to see what else I invariably missed and end up not contributing.
The one other thing I got out catching up was a suspicion of Alex for the mancrush on Delta. If it were a one-liner throwaway gag I would've done just that, but he kept it up for a while, and, for the life of me, I have no clue why (I don't believe the "I was just kidding around" excuse because joking around phase ended a while ago; anyone that harps on something at this stage in the game is doing it for a reason).
It doesn't help that I'm distracted by the fact that I could very well have blown a new job opportunity by sleeping in today.
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I hate how every game it feels like I'm being crucified simply for being vocal, by whoever I vote on and all the people going "Look, he's voting and talking!"
At this point I have no clue what to think of Cid's post. Nor of Soppy's.
I know that, Al. I was hesitant to share my thoughts on it due to that. But that's not going to stop me.
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Perhaps you misunderstand. I don't believe I was lurking, which is why the whole matter bothered me.
You certainly weren't Corwin, and no one is accusing you of that. It was more that you weren't saying a whole lot of anything.
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Ah. The whole "did not respond to Rat" thing implied a certain inattention on my part which I felt to be misguided. For the record, whenever I hit the Preview button, I tend to only skim any posts made while I was writing (I do at least make sure that the hammer hasn't fallen, at least!) and then read the new ones afterwards. If anything there changes my mind, I'll make a new post for that. Primarily, this because I type so slowly in the first place that I'd never get anything down on the record if I stopped every time a new post showed up (or risk have my original post made obsolete by the constant delays--I also like to have my thought processes out in the open for posterity).
Muppy edit: To wit, four new replies! I'm not dead yet, so I'll read those in a sec.
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*Now* discussion comes? Cid, this is why I've been voting you, this is the sort of stuff you would've done better to post, like, a day ago. Instead of sticking to Delta and what looked like an OMGUS-based "Look at Soppy!" cry until an hour before deadline. Argh. Thinking.
C'mon, Alex. I mentioned Soppy several times prior to my ersatz Farewell post, starting with when he first called me out for making a "personal attack."
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"Did not respond to X post" is really not a good reason to vote someone unless X post is calling them out on a truly major issue. Content is what matters.
Where is Bard and how do people feel about him? I am still a little weirded out by how his construction of the early delta stuff was just glossed over by everyone. Am I the only one who thinks it was odd?
Cid, I know that, I was including your case on him in the things you had done before deadline (and was writing it off as bad, yes. I would call this more "giving my thoughts on other people" and "participating in discussion" than "being overly defensive of others" but to each his own.)
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Not willing to hammer Cid - Frankly, I don't think right now that that is the best course of action. We still have some time left.
So what the hell should we do, exactly? There is one hour left. We can lynch Cid, we can lynch Delta (although I guess he doesn't have any votes anymore, huh), or you can stick your thumbs in your ass and hope that everything goes your way and that we lynch your target of choice. Personally I think this type of attitude feels like unsettling stall tactics and is the type of attitude that will leave us with a hung jury and no answers. If you feel like that we should be doing something else, then I suggest you press it more adamantly than you have been, because uh if you don't want the leading candidate to be lynched then it seems like a good time to formulate a plan on what we should do.
Do I think Cid is the best target of our lynch? Well, if my vote hasn't indicated, no. But he has fallen into some of the same things that I have pointed out against Excal, and we are seriously running out of time.
Argh. ;_; Stating intent to hammer in 15~ minutes, have no time left to post anything else. I'm willing to listen to any arguments made in the meantime.
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Just a reminder that I autoextend deadline by a half hour from the latest post, so the majority lynch doesn't happen unless the hammer falls or discussion dies for 30 minutes. Considering it is basically a half hour to scheduled deadline from now, you may continue discussion without worry of the clock so long as it stays active.
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Mrf. Why do you chose now to start responding to things properly and clearly, rather than going with what you did before?
Alex: I've been saying Bard's been arguing in circles for most of the game. I just kinda latched onto Cid first, who with his latest posts is actually starting to be less of good idea. I'm not going to be someone who swings on a hunch though, and Ciato is right in that it may just be stalling. I honestly doubt it is, since regardless someone is going to hammer before deadline.
But it is true that Cid should have posted these things sooner rather than later, so who knows? Sticking with Cid, living with the consequences.
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Where is Bard and how do people feel about him? I am still a little weirded out by how his construction of the early delta stuff was just glossed over by everyone. Am I the only one who thinks it was odd?
I'm right over here, reading along with what looks to be a... Very confusing case on Cid, and very dubious solidity on the case against him. It all seems to come down to, "the matter here is no prominent activity!" and when that changes to prominent activity it becomes "the matter here is, you don't post enough content!" as opposed to Kilgamayan and Sopko, who seem to be revered by you, Alex, as being much better than Cid in this regard. Even though I find the three of them to be equally... succinct and not very contributing.
For the past few hours your collective attacks on Cid seem to have all been of the same nature, repeatedly holding against him that he was semi-lurking without providing what you feel to be adequate content. So to say, the issue is that you aren't content with his content.
(pause to laugh about my great pun)
I'm still not feeling good about Alex. I'd like some clarification about this line:
*Now* discussion comes? Cid, this is why I've been voting you, this is the sort of stuff you would've done better to post, like, a day ago. Instead of sticking to Delta and what looked like an OMGUS-based "Look at Soppy!" cry until an hour before deadline. Argh. Thinking.
Argh. Thinking. What do you mean by that expression, to be precise?
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I mean this.
##Unvote: Cid
##Vote: Bardiche
I think Bard's actions have on the whole been worse and his content been less than Cid's. Cid's reactions drive me up the wall, but at the same time I don't think scumCid would do that. I know scumCid is capable of much better, re: Anonymafia.
Kilga, since I missed this before: Just me venting, and attempting to be polite while still speaking frankly. Wherever I call him sexy, replace it with "not the brightest candle in the menorah."
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Excal (1): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (4): Soppy, Rat, Alex, Rat, Dread Thomas, Kilga
Soppy (1): El Cid
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (0): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (2): Delta, Alex, Excal, Alex
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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Alex, did you miss the post where I decided to vote for Bard, using his odd defense of Delta as my basis for voting for him? Continuing on that note, Bard. You may want to help your friend out, but the business of the game is still rooting out scum, and anyone can be scum unless you have some kind of knowledge that I can see little reason for you having as to his alignment. And that, leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
As for Cid, I've actually been getting fairly townie vibes from him. Maybe not playing that hard because he's also doing other things, and hasn't really got a clue as to where to go. But I've generally found him to be one of the more consistent folks. So, the only way I'm going to vote for him is if it's him or me.
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...
Jumping votes again, I see. Now, maybe you'd like to dumb down for me your thought process against me as well? I recall, earlier on in the day you've been harping about my playstyle, clarifying for yourself that you believe me playing as I always do is sufficient reason to believe I am scum, or something similar with that I post in a manner that makes it easy to lie. (I don't see how - it's very easy for everyone to lie, you just tell untruths)
With jumping away from Cid now, and at the cost of sounding OMGUS here (I don't think I am, I've held this point against Alex for a while now), can you honestly promise me this time you'll stick to your claim against me? You've been doing nothing but jumping around here, Alex, and frankly I fail to see the pro-town herein.
Your argument to jump off of Cid train seem to consist mostly of metagaming (Cid's playstyle as scum is different), and it seriously makes me wonder whether you even actually considered your case against Cid before pushing it.
What was the basis for voting on Cid, and what is the concrete basis for voting on me now?
Re: Excal
I explained my reasoning for defending Deltaflyer. I will not retract that attitude or flower it up - I earnestly cannot see any malice or deceit in his actions, and take him as a clueless newbie we should not lynch just because he thought roleclaim was a good idea.
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Where is Bard and how do people feel about him? I am still a little weirded out by how his construction of the early delta stuff was just glossed over by everyone. Am I the only one who thinks it was odd?
Will take a few minutes to reread things, since it seems I actually have the time. If it comes down to it, I am obviously prepared to vote for Not Me over Me, but Bard's been a pretty minor suspect for me thus far.
The obligatory caution about making assumptions based on playstyle goes here, but I can't really complain about not being dead.
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Why I voted Cid: All day, until just around now, he never attacked anyone or said anything was scummy except for Delta (bad case) and Sopko (bad case, not quite as bad as Delta but everything Cid said about him applied to others and it smelt of OMGUS).
Why I am now voting Bard: Cid's reactions look pretty townie. Bard on the other hand, well, see Excal's post right above here and the stuff it was referring to, as well as my reasons for voting Bard earlier in the day. Let me drag up a couple quotes real quick.
Oh, and for heaven's sake, stop being so afraid of "jumping around" that you consider it a virtue to stick to one case exclusively and never change your mind. That goes for everyone here, it's a bad habit the DL's fallen into.
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All I can read in that, Alex, is, "I voted Cid because he wasn't attacking, and so I pushed until he was at -1 to hammer! BUT WAIT! He flailed! Awesome, that's contribution, time to go push for another's train."
If I flail, will you drop the case on me as well, then?
Your "jumping around" isn't so much as going after a varied number of people as that you seem to press on them with apparent convincement that someone is scum, then abandon that train completely and give it no more words while you chase on after someone else - barring myself, which you referenced to a few times even during the Cid train. It seems as if your cases, Day 1 notwithstanding, are built on very little, yet you pursuit them with zeal regardless.
If you feel I am suspicious, then push for it, question me. Do not say, "Well Bardiche replied pretty well!" and then go back to "Well Bard is pretty scummy!" later on when Cid flails before death and you decide that is enough reason to drop the case.
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Okay, Laggy will extend for discussion! In that case, I will stop skipping class over Mafia. <_<
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I'm wary of Alex for jumpiness. Like he's trying to run some early Day 1 trains. Prodding on the Delta train first, then conveniently jumping off that when no one gives backing and starting what seems to be a Corwin train? Bit too jumpy to me.
You seem to have jumped from pro-Delta, to anti-Delta, to anti-Corwin, to anti-me all in the course of three pages, and cite my post where I didn't aggressively attack anyone as a reason to vote on me.
These are what bothers me. These do not say the same thing. That first quote there came at a decently important juncture and painted me as pushing for Delta's lynch, ignoring that I said from the start he was likely town. It could be brushed off as an error or whatnot but I think it is important given that Bard's whole playstyle is "Parrot back events, poke other people for judgment on them." That's a bad playstyle no matter what, but if he's dead set on it then the way to find him as scum is to look for times when his journalism is not accurate and paints people in suggestive lights. Like he's fishing for a lynch. "Hey guys who do you want to lynch, I'm cool with lots of stuff, nah I got no thoughts of my own" is what I get from him.
Bout the only original content or positions I've seen from him are "Jumping around is bad!" (Wrong, though overlookable as a newbie tendency) and "Delta is probably town but more importantly he's my buddy so let him live" (Wronger and why would you even say that instead of sticking to "He's probably town"?)
Bard's reply here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31548#msg31548
placated me at that time as a town-tell, but it is not a very strong one.
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Ninja edit for forgetting the actual question of the day: Bard, who do you think is scummy and why? Don't restate anything unless it's crucial to your case, I want to hear your actual thoughts.
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These are what bothers me. --- ignoring that I said from the start he was likely town.
So you voted on me because I found you suspicious, or what? And... I recall, you were voting on Delta at that time in, what you call, "frustration", despite thinking he was likely town. Since when do we aim to lynch town in Mafia if we're town ourselves?
"Hey guys who do you want to lynch, I'm cool with lots of stuff, nah I got no thoughts of my own" is what I get from him.
I do have thoughts of my own. Refer to bottom of this post. I've held this point for quite a while.
"Delta is probably town but more importantly he's my buddy so let him live" (Wronger and why would you even say that instead of sticking to "He's probably town"?)
This is where you apply some of the "false journalism" you accuse me of. I believe he is town, and that is the reigning motive for keeping him alive. Was I to think he was scum, I'd have pushed for his lynch without doubt. I cited knowing him to an extend and knowing how he plays Mafia (that endearing newcomer obliviousness to DO NOTS of Mafia) as my major reasons for strongly believing he is town - what grounds have you to believe he is town?
Who I think is scum? You, with possible scumbuddy Cid. Riling up everyone against Cid as an attempt to alienate the two of you, then swiftly dropping the case on Cid to pursue someone else again. You've been building crumbly cases on people that apparently you don't even hold strong conviction for, rallying support from others and attempting to get people lynched - even when a simple post can apparently sway your opinion to someone else. Your wishiwashiness can't possible be pro-town.
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Mrf. Bard, what do you think about everyone else? We know your case on Alex.
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Delta - Don't think he's scum. He's been mostly oblivious to common Mafia rules around here. Had he a scumbuddy, certainly he'd have played better. In other games, he's been equally oblivious. I... I just don't see it. I don't. Calling for a mass roleclaim at the start is simple newbie obliviousness, not malignant rolefishing by very clever scum that somehow thought to get away with it.
Excal - Was shifty at first, still a bit shifty. Questioned Delta twice without real conviction... Hasn't been really active and contributing. Very little to base on. Initial impression stands, springs from gut feeling, I must admit.
Cid - I don't find his actions particularly egregious, but won't disclude the possibility of him being scum if Alex is due to the way the case against him progressed.
Kilgamayan - Can't get a clear read on him. Mostly neutral on him, not sure if behaviour is indicative of any scrutiny.
Rat - Should be treated with the same scrutiny as always. As usual we clash on my capability to comprehend the bigger picture, but nothing that makes me want to lynch him. Seems to have faded, though, needs to come back and post again.
EvilTom - Tried to get people to vote Cid "before he went to bed". Pressuring people, or what? Not cool. Slightly wary of him, but could also be his usual clumsiness at getting himself lynched in avoidable situations.
Ciato - Mostly neutral read. Haven't seen much of her, she's been mostly absent the past few hours.
Sopko - Has been skimmy and making nasty stings. Not sure if this is indicative of anything, but I think it should be treated with the same scrutiny Cid's received for his supposed "lurking". Being a bit too succinct.
Anyone I'm missing is obviously too lurky.
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Ok. So Cid thinks I'm scum because I voted him and was immune to changing my mind. Now Bard thinks I'm scum because I voted him and I change my mind too much.
I'll let you all work that one out for yourselves.
And no I would not have let Delta go to an actual lynch. Frustration is just that.
In the meantime... I think Bard's last two posts speak for themselves and present my case against him clearer than I could hope to. Read and make your own judgments.
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Now Bard thinks I'm scum because I voted him and I change my mind too much.
No... I'm thinking you're scum because of your wishiwashiness. I don't care about you voting me - what reason do I have to believe you'll actually stick to your guns this time around? I'm voting you because of everything else I've said.
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Hmm... opinions on Alex this game, especially mine, ebb and flow like the tide.
I'm not too keen on Alex being scum at the moment now. Changing from Cid to Bard is pretty high-risk if he's scum, especially if he's buddies with Cid trying to pull a train on Bard, as Bard is saying. It's high-risk low reward, which puts them in serious risk if Cid still ends up lynched. Alex found a more convincing case for him and went with it. Even if he's scum and not Cid, it's way too WIFOMy at the moment to consider that being his strategy with any seriousness. For Bard's points of wishiwashiness, this is something to look at depending on the results of today's lynch. At the moment, you can't really go in for Alex on that.
Bard's points on others are mostly agreeable, and like Cid he's had his bouts of kneejerks and legit posts since being targeted. I'd put them at about equal at this point. I'm not really afraid of changing my vote, but we'll see where it goes from here.
To be honest? I'd say this was probably the most productive Day 1 we've ever had.
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So as long as I keep voting for you this time, you're cool with that, then? Aight.
Wait no that doesn't make any sense.
Changing your mind and taking multiple positions is not a bad thing.
It is scummy when the person is hopping from target to target without reasons, looking for an easy townie lynch. Have I done that? I don't think so, I think I've adequately outlined the reasons for all my votes.
Bard's case against me is now boiling into some wacky conspiracy theory stuff, I think, but other folks, judge for yourselves.
Ninja edit for Soppy - his points on others are agreeable? Really? The entire list is "They may be scum, but maybe not" except for Delta and Excal.
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Ninja edit for Soppy - his points on others are agreeable? Really? The entire list is "They may be scum, but maybe not" except for Delta and Excal.
I'll be honest, with the exception of Cid and Bard, I can't think of stances for the people listed any better. He's obviously got people he leans towards more than others. I'd definitely think otherwise about the validity of his list if this were anything other than Day 1.
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Hate to say it, Bard. But I can't see where the argument over Alex is either. He's a good player, but I find his shifting as he needs to to be a sign of town alignment in him, rather than a sign of scuminess. His general strategy as scum is more to play to our perceptions of good town play, hang on one person and make them crack while continuing to make his position seem very reasonable to the rest of us. Meanwhile, as town he tends to prefer focusing just long enough with a lot of zeal to get a strong reaction and judge that. He's a good player, so these tells aren't absolute (he notices these things and tries to switch them up so he's not easy to read), but right now I'm not all that inclined to agree with cases against him.
Not as sure as before what I think of Bard, but of the targets for today, he still feels like the best bet. And given that we're an hour into overtime now, making a push for a change now is bad mojo.
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I feel like that Bardiche is being indecisive and has been going in circles, I feel like Cid has been lurking and only got his ass in gear when he felt like he was going to get lynched but was unwilling to contribute much of anything before then. Lack of willingness to get involved in heavy discussion and such when until when on the block looks bad in Cid's case.
Bardiche seems to be suffering from really strongly reacting to being voted upon, and his behavior seems extremely irrational, but I'm torn on what I think about his insistence on voting for Alex and not Cid. Instinctively pushing a train at the sight of your name coming up in lynching candidates seems like a solid scum tactic, but it's also clairvoyant so WIFOMy. Also, the conspiracy theory, it burns.
Overall I feel like Bardiche has made more contributions (even if some of them I disagree with and others bizarre) without having to be pressured into doing so. I also think his defenses post-pressure have been worse. I'm not sure if he's just had trouble articulating his stances or what, but some of his latest posts have been downright wacky.
##UNVOTE: Excal
##VOTE:Bardiche
I feel like this is the better choice of the two because I think your reaction to pressure is more indicative than your casual posting.
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Excal (0): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (4): Soppy, Rat, Alex, Rat, Dread Thomas, Kilga
Soppy (1): El Cid
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (0): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (3): Delta, Alex, Excal, Alex, Ciato
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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Okay, topic reread done. Ciato solidified as someone to keep an eye on. Bard seems the only likely alternative to myself getting lynched, however, and I don't have sufficient ammo for Ciato (just minor suspicions).
What actually bothers me about Bard is fairly recent: positing scum pairs on day one. I don't see this as constructive, pretty much ever, without card flips (which we obviously do not have, this being day one). It also would have been a terrible idea for a hypothetical Alex/Cid team to go through with this song and dance. Alex posted several times while I was at minus one to hammer, while Ciato was saying she was ready to drop the hammer herself. It was a long time before Alex unvoted, and I'd had plenty of time to get killed before he did so. Are you really suggesting that a scum team would make such a crazy gambit on day one, Bard?
And all of this is setting aside the fact that I know I'm Town (yeah, you have only my word on that, yada yada yada). I also have to take issue with him pointing to my apparently-not-farewell post as "flailing." I wasn't looking for pity, man. I was trying to help Town by leaving my thoughts in the record.
Essentially have a null read on Alex at this time. Definitely don't agree with Bard's accusation of him jumping from one person to another. Sure, he's voted on plenty of different people, but I'm more inclined to view this as town trying to get the ball rolling rather than scum testing out every player to see who they can get trained. If he moved from one player to another without reason, there'd be more of a case, but Alex has generally provided justification (if admittedly sometimes after the fact).
Given all that, and that it's pretty much down to Bard and myself here:
##Unvote: Hunter Sopko
##Vote: Bardiche
~
Muppy edit: Ninja'd by Ciato. Changes little.
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I honestly want to wait until his reaction to things before changing, but the current events at least convince me to
##Unvote: El Cid
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Was going to wait for Sopko or someone before posting, but apparently they wait for me! .. kay.
Well, there's a bunch of accusations against me and I'm really not feeling the jive anymore. I'll respond to everyone out of pure humor and then the ball's in your court. I stand by my belief, and I'll go down with that belief if I have to. The one victory I'll have is that Delta'll be able to last to day two, barring scum/TP intervention.
Alex, I think we've already said everything there is to be said about the clashes between us, so I won't bother.
Ciato, I honestly don't think my theory is that far-fetched. Then again, I made the theory, and anyone doing so will never feel it is too farfetched. At the time, anyway. You prefer to vote for someone that you feel contributed more over someone that only contributed in the form of flailing when on the block.
Excal, His general strategy as scum is more to play to our perceptions of good town play, hang on one person and make them crack while continuing to make his position seem very reasonable to the rest of us. Meanwhile, as town he tends to prefer focusing just long enough with a lot of zeal to get a strong reaction and judge that.
this all comes down to "his playstyle!" and just seems to be the same. Hanging on someone to make them crack (HINT: he's been on me from the start!) and getting on several people's cases to see what comes of it boils down to basically the same for me. By your logic, I'd feel even more strongly about Alex but you all disagree with me, so I'll just have to do just that.
Sopko, uh, vote Cid not me kthxbai lolz.
-
Quick skim got me this. Not done reading what I want to, but I figured I'd put it out.
Bard: You accuse Alex of metagaming in his jumping off the Cid train here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31609#msg31609) and then make a metagame claim as to why you thought Delta was town here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31617#msg31617). Can't have it both ways.
Also, there's plenty of potential pro-town in hopping around, the most obvious being that it forces more opinions out of more people.
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Excal (0): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (3): Soppy, Rat, Alex, Rat, Dread Thomas, Kilga
Soppy (0): El Cid
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (0): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (4): Delta, Alex, Excal, Alex, Ciato, El Cid
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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Potential alarmism from Ciato (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31601#msg31601). This raises the question of whether or not she genuinely forgot about the auto-extend (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31613#msg31613) (and whether or not that ultimately matters), but I can't say I'm a fan.
Bard, why are you directly picking at relatively inconsequential grunting? (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31605#msg31605) Why are you summarizing Alex's thought process by claiming Cid flailed when it was Cid actually calming down that convinced Alex to change? (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31612#msg31612)
---
Unrelated note: Bard has 300 posts now. Does this mean he doesn't get any more? >_>
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I don't particularly feel that Bard's contributed any more than Cid has. However, after Cid's little spat, he dug himself out of his hole and leveled off. Bard's still got that flailing quality to him.
I'll grant that Bard isn't the first to make scumbuddy pairings this game, but since it's become a topic... Bard, let's say they are buddies. There's no way Alex could have known at the time that Cid would be the one trained. It would have had to be planned in advance to have Alex's vote start the train on his own scumbuddy then pull away to someone else and hope people follow. There are two highly risky moves there.
A) If Alex is trying to vote for his buddy to avoid suspicion, why cast the vote that'll put him ahead of the other candidates and make it likely for him to get trained?
B) If it's intentional to go in and get cred and pull out to train someone else, you have to hope to GOD that other people pull off the train. There's no guarantee that you can pull that off, even if you are Alex.
High-risk, low reward. There's a possibility of one of them being scum, sure, but both? It's an insane gambit.
-
I'll give you that point, Sopko. Conspiracy theory does seem to be too far fetched now, but eh, I said it so that's that. I could go off rattling about town cred if you nail scum, but that's a terrible strategy and I don't see why you'd employ it in such a manner.
Kilga, when someone says, "argh, thinking", I make the assumption that something is bothering them and want to know what it is. It's like sitting with a bunch of friends and one suddenly grunts - I want to know why he grunts, and what he means by the mumble afterwards! And I guess we just sort of differ on that aspect, then. With Cid going, "I'm dead, well, 5-10 minutes I'll stick around and answer any questions then!" Maybe we use a different definition of "flail". Probably mine that's different from most of yours.
Anyway, you guys have a choice of either Cid or me at this point, I think (barring that we all now join hands and happily go for someone else), so I guess my defense here is impertinent in order to avoid getting the sack. I admit, I hate hanging by Day 1 because usually the cases are so downright bad it hurts... And the case on Cid is pretty crappy. So that leaves... Me. Well, damn.
Given that my primary suspect is employing what others feel is good strategy against my belief that it is whimsical jumping around, I don't think I can turn the tables here much. But, of course, if you're going to lynch me I do want to get a last say. Contemplating roleclaiming.
-
Bard: It was very likely that Alex was going to explain what he was thinking about in the very near future. It seems pointless to ask him what he's going to say when he's going to say it not long thereafter. It smacks of filler.
As for the flailing, it's entirely possible that we simply have differing opinions on what qualifies, but if Cid was really flailing at the presumed end there, it was quite controlled. He seemed more defeatist than flailing to me (NOT ACTUALLY SAYING CID WAS DEFEATIST PLEASE DON'T LASER ME).
-
I'll give you that point, Sopko. Conspiracy theory does seem to be too far fetched now, but eh, I said it so that's that. I could go off rattling about town cred if you nail scum, but that's a terrible strategy and I don't see why you'd employ it in such a manner.
This was actually done, with great success, in the first mafia game ever on the boards. Don't think anyone's tried it since. Don't think they'd meet with great success bussing a buddy Day 1 anymore either.
As far as your suspect, the reason I've considered him but not gone with him is that he's gone out on too many limbs, taken too many risks to me. He looks to me like a townie pursuing new leads. There was no better case than Cid's until you stuck your foot in your mouth. It's WIFOMy to consider all this to be planned at this point.
Depending on the results, it can all change. Day 1 does not cease to have happened in history once Day 2 starts. We can still read your arguments later if you're town. Put out whatever you can, not just resigning yourself. If you're going to roleclaim, I'd do it now, because...
##Vote: Bardiche
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To that I can only say, "I asked on an impulse". I see someone mentioning they are thinking about something, displaying what seems to be wavering belief in the justness of bringing Cid to the block and then switches over to me. Well, you can't blame a man for being curious, or at least I wouldn't. Sometimes I treat this game as conventional conversation where whenever someone shows they're thinking, you ask what it is they think of.
Well, Cid lashed out at someone and went all "lynch him day 2!", so to me, it was flailing. (watch out for them lasers!)
-
Remember, while this is a conversational game, it is not meant to be overly friendly, and there is a goal to be achieved. Now, you're at -1 to hammer, and we're 2.5 hours into auto-extend, so if you have any final words/thoughts, now would be a good time for them.
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Sway my mind in the next 5 mins, Bard before i go to bed. I am seiriously thinking about voting for you now.
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Yeah, sorry, lost myself a bit there. I was a bit stressed at first, but as you can see I've calmed down. This tea is great.
Anyway, I'll hammer myself at the end of this post.
First off... good job! I'm scum alright. Well, I can't really say dying Day 1 as scum is something new to me, and I don't particularly care anymore. The last few rounds were enjoyable, anyway, and I found out I really don't like having to work as scum, lying through my teeth and try to get someone framed. I'm not fit for deciding who needs to stop playing, it seems, haha.
Anyway, that's really all.
##VOTE: Bardiche
Happy scumhunting.
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*beep*
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/cyril_shinsei/muppydeathlaser.jpg) ------> (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/cyril_shinsei/Exterminatus.jpg)
Bardiche (CONDITIONAL ROLEBLOCKER, SCUM) was nuked by a shiny, new Muppy Brand Orbital Death Laser (lynched)
Corwin (VANILLA TOWNIE) was caught in the explosion and shredded into infinitesmally tiny bits of meat (modkilled)
Day 1 Final Votecount
Excal (0): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (3): Soppy, Rat, Alex, Rat, Dread Thomas, Kilga
Soppy (0): El Cid
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (0): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (0): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (6): Delta, Alex, Excal, Alex, Ciato, El Cid, Soppy, Bardiche
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche
With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.
Day 1 has ended! Send in Night 1 actions.
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Excal (TOWN COP) was eaten by a grue overnight (nightkilled)
Day 2 has started! It ends on Friday, 9/5, 6:00pm PST, barring autoextends.
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Good luck.
EDIT: For clarification, sanity does not flip on death.
-
...
Well then.
I'm looking back at Ciato, who caught my attention once again with the potential alarmism post I references earlier. I'm seeing some stuff...not being much better than Excal at the whole "posting to maintain a presence" thing, claiming she would have voted if there weren't "numerous" votes on Delta already (there were two at the time - think Excal pointed this out already) after accusing Excal for not going after Delta with GUSTO!™, never actually getting back to us about Tom's post...
Her one notably meaty post was the post where she voted Bardiche...whose flip kinda turns everything in this post on its ear.
Nevertheless, it's early Day 2 and no one has voted, so I don't see the harm in going through with this now.
##Vote: Ciato
I'm curious as to why you refrained from putting Delta in a situation where he would still have needed to double his vote total to get lynched when you accused Excal of not putting enough energy behind his thoughts.
(Is anyone else worried that Tom did not garner a single serious vote? <_<)
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(Topic title needs editing, by the way.)
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Mrf. Wanted to pursue Excal today, but it seems we now have the reasons for his hesitancy. With the flip, I'll go with my top three thusfar.
Ciato- Needs to talk, as per Kilga's points. Popped in during a critical time and contributed nothing. Class or no, not even a comment towards things hurts.
Thomas- Was around for the Bard stuff, but left when it really started getting heated, left his vote on Cid.
Rat- Also fairly absent despite getting the ball rolling on Cid. Needs to give his thoughts on how the previous day ended.
-
Another game, another night one Excal slaying. Sadness.
First off, the Bard flip pretty much makes me discount Delta as a candidate at this point in time. I think it's highly probable that Bard's defense of Delta was intended at least partly to get a townie on his side (especially since the two of them know each other from outside the board, making it likely that Delta would've taken Bard's support in good faith).
Also not really considering Alex right now. Pulling away from an easy lynch on me yesterday to railroad someone who flipped scum? Sorry, no, can't see that happening. This leaves five people:
Ciatokins: Definitely agree with Kilga's prodding here. Also, her joining the Bard train happened sufficiently late that it could have been a scumbuddy throwing in the towel to get some townie cred. Stronger suspect than most right now. So: ##Vote: Ciato
Kilga: Touch and go day one, but I definitely agree with the Ciato push and I have nothing significant to build a case with here.
Rat: I actually keep forgetting he's here. This is worrisome.
Soppy: I've been over this, not repeating it since this is Succinct Mafia. In the interest of setting aside the more unpleasant aspects of day one, will wait and see what he gives us today.
Tom: Has been eerily good at passing under my radar this game. I don't consider him vanishing near the end of day one anything significant given that that was around 1AM his time.
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Rat-chan hey Rat-chan
Who do you think is scum?
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Cid...
-has been not so present in parts despite being around a lot
-doesn't seem to cultivate discussion unless he is on the line
-essentially the same argument he uses against me about Bardiche, except it makes more sense for him to do so since the other option was -him-.
He has picked at me a couple times before, with his completely inane point of "scum have legit excuses!" I'm not really understanding why he even brought this up, since everyone has lives to attend to. I feel like him using this point against me is ridiculous considering his own “I have excuses” attitude.
I'm looking at Ciato, too. She is notably reserved as scum (metagaming, but I think it's a valid observation that she's less comfortable playing non-Town). I believe she made some solid arguments early on in the game, but has been laggardly in the last day or so. Her announcement that she'll be away doesn't necessarily help matters. As it has been said, legitimate excuses are great for scum.
Okay, topic reread done. Ciato solidified as someone to keep an eye on. Bard seems the only likely alternative to myself getting lynched, however, and I don't have sufficient ammo for Ciato (just minor suspicions).
Ciatokins: Definitely agree with Kilga's prodding here. Also, her joining the Bard train happened sufficiently late that it could have been a scumbuddy throwing in the towel to get some townie cred. Stronger suspect than most right now.
Basically my problem is that he seems to have put very little effort into this. The only decisive thing that has come out of him is that I was being laggardly and the scumbus statement, which is a valid enough point, but also is a very easy point to make without really working hard at driving home a point.
The last point which I feel is important is Bardiche himself and his insistence with not voting Cid but trying to turn his attention to Alex. Normally I don't think I would regard this, but Bardiche doesn't really play like the average DL player, so it's worth mentioning.
##VOTE: Cid
I have more thoughts that were supposed to be part of this post, but I had to cut them out because the Cid part was too long. :( Attempt to be succinct = failed.
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Ciatokins, if you were Bard's scumbuddy how would you have played day 1 differently?
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Bardiche self-hammering lead me to believe that none of his scumbuddies were both around and hadn't voted for him already, otherwise I'm sure they would've just swung in with the hammer and possibly claimed some credit rather than let him just self-kill.
That means that both Kilga and Delta look pretty good to me at the moment, as they were both active right before that came out, and yet were not on top of him for easy cred. See Cid for why Alex is likely to get a pass from me today.
Cid handled himself decently, given how close he was to hammer. Most scum tend to peter out around then, and I'm likewise positive that if Bardiche and Cid were scumbuddies, Bard would've just jumped on Cid near the end rather than focus on Alex.
I disagree with part of the case on Ciato. She needed to post more and her hanging back/tentativeness was problematic. But I didn't think her vote timing was indicative of a bus (it was too early and Cid still had many votes.) On the other hand she seems to admit that's a reasonable idea to have? Worth checking out.
Dread Thomas and Sopko are my current main candidates.
-Dread Thomas because he left his vote decision up to me and didn't seem to storngly invest himself at a crucial time.
-Sopko because he never really seemed to push his vote on Cid, even when he said it was absolutely sealed. He kinda just hung out there, silently approved of what others were saying, and only when everyone else had turned sour on Bardiche did he really get involved. I'd like him to explain why he jumped off Cid when he did, and then why it took him so long to jump on Bard.
##Vote: Sopko right now.
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Rat (0): Excal
Does anybody else find this, combined with a potential night 0 cop action, significant?
<->
PS.
EvilTom - Tried to get people to vote Cid "before he went to bed".
Rofl.. ah. Yes. ALLEGEDLY GOING TO BED!
Thankyou El Cid for pointing out that sleep is not scummy. I had to get up early for work today, and yes, 1am was a stupid time to stay up till. I'm very tired today. So sorry for leaving that vote on you & going to bed, but I didn't have much choice.
<->
Reading back over Bard's posts.. Sooner or later, he'll make us do this anyway! I want to be the first in on this so I am not band wagoning! ##VOTE: EvilTom
EvilTom - [...] Slightly wary of him, but could also be his usual clumsiness at getting himself lynched in avoidable situations.
I should have been more wary of his 'clumsy' attempts to get me lynched. Now I feel stupid. BUT AT LEAST I'M NOT DEAD HAHAH @ YOU BARD!
*cough*
Oh Ninja Rat.
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You know I thought Tom was on crack for a second, but upon rereading that is an awfully long time to leave a "joke vote" up. I think if Excal had gotten a scum read night 0 he would have hinted at it later in the day, though, and there are a couple other possibilities I find very plausible for his N0 read.
Master Dread Thomas, who do you think is scum?
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Bardiche self-hammering lead me to believe that none of his scumbuddies were both around and hadn't voted for him already, otherwise I'm sure they would've just swung in with the hammer and possibly claimed some credit rather than let him just self-kill.
That means that both Kilga and Delta look pretty good to me at the moment, as they were both active right before that came out, and yet were not on top of him for easy cred.
Isn't that... a huge contradiction?
"Scum would get town credit for hammer if they were around"
"Kilga and Delta didn't hammer therefore they get town credit"
What you just said doesn't make a lot of sense. And also, nobody really believes that hammer gives any credit. Not only do I disagree with what you said, I disagree with your idea that the hammer is of any real significance. Coming in at the last second looks no more suspicious than it does credible.
But you should know that. You're up with the metagame. The fact that you're trying to make this fallacious argument fly is disturbing and suspicious.
I disagree with part of the case on Ciato. [..] On the other hand [..] Worth checking out.
Classic scum. "I don't agree or disagree, but we should all look at Ciato". Well done.
-Dread Thomas because he left his vote decision up to me and didn't seem to storngly invest himself at a crucial time.
Ah, you were setting this one up since yesterday. For those who followed my logic: I wanted to vote Delta, failing that I was happy to move to my 2nd in line of suspicion, El Cid. The balance shifted onto El Cid and away from Delta. There was no point me going to bed and leaving my solitary vote on Delta.
The thing is, I explained this.
But you're choosing to ignore what really happened, because it's much more important to you that I be painted in the worst possible light.
On top of Excal's subliminal "this is who my night investigation was".... I'd say you're looking like a very good scum target right now.
##Vote: Rat
Ninja Alex: Question answered?
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Dread Thomas: Kilga and Delta would've both earned individual +credit points for hammering towards the end, because someone's gotta do it. I feel it would've been a very clear and obvious option for either of them rather than just stay off and hide. Both were very lurky as well. Had that played out differently, I would likely suspect the one that didn't hammer over the one that did. And part of it is that I simply don't see a Bardiche+Kilga/Delta scumteam being very subtle there. I'm sure they'd have come down on him (I'm sure Delta certainly would have, maybe not Kilga. Still don't think it's likely.)
I do think that Excal likely investigated me. I just don't think he was sane. I was kind of hoping nobody would bring it up, but you did, so there you go.
Do you actually contest anything I said about Ciato? She was topical and needed to be discussed. I'm leaning towards notscum, but I found it odd that she didn't deny the concept of her bussing Bardiche due to timing, if nothing else. It isn't a clear case.
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I do think that Excal likely investigated me. I just don't think he was sane.
Explain this immediately because I'm sure the scum can come to the same conclusions I can.
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Rat: Agreed with for last line. Why did some ignore this when it's a common scum trait? Though... something feels off here, not sure what. Will watch.
This line clicked after I saw the flip. Combined with the jokevote, I deduced he investigated me pretty fast. blah blah I know I'm town but what are you blah blah sanity blah blah
Like I said, I was hoping nobody would mention it.
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Rat: Agreed with for last line. Why did some ignore this when it's a common scum trait? Though... something feels off here, not sure what. Will watch.
This line clicked after I saw the flip. Combined with the jokevote, I deduced he investigated me pretty fast. blah blah I know I'm town but what are you blah blah sanity blah blah
No no no no no no. I read that too, but he was referring to Delta when he said that. http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31290#msg31290 is the reference.
I'm more likely to believe:
Let's start. Given that Rat is always scum and I have no reason to disbelive. ##Vote: Carthrat.[\b]
Now I don't think it was a joke vote at all.
Like I said, I was hoping nobody would mention it.
Secrecy and concealment and lies is the job of scum.
I'm officially recommending a Rat lynch. My vote is serious.
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Delta: Still hasn't explained why he roleclaimed, or why he wanted others to. Attacked me when called on his actions. Only solid fact that roleclaim is supposedly true. Answer why you did this, please.
Alex: Why no questions? Might agree with thoughts Re: Delta, but lack of inquiry is unsettling. Especially on Day 1.
Rat: Agreed with for last line. Why did some ignore this when it's a common scum trait? Though... something feels off here, not sure what. Will watch.
It seems clear to me that his post format was to describe relevant thoughts about each of the above three people. I believe he was referring to me in my segment.
I have never thought it to be a good idea to go out of my way to incriminate myself in general. Why make myself look worse, regardless of what side I'm on?
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I'm not going to believe insane cop exists in a game this small with post limits unless I actually see another cop claim or flip, to be honest. However, I don't think Excal investigated Rat anyway.
PARANOIA
Rat, Ciato, Sopko and Kilga all look bad to me for various reasons, in roughly that order of suspiciousness.
I am not willing to talk about exactly why just yet. I'd like Ciato to answer my question and for all four of them to talk more.
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Oh for Heaven's sake. Why do people post so much worthwhile stuff this game while I'm in bed? :(
---
I'm frowning at Ciato's bullet points against Cid. The first can also be applied to her, the second...I admit I have a hard time getting motivated to post a whole bunch when no one is riding me regardless of my alignment, so I don't see how this is a scumtell. The third, well, I hardly hold it over the guy for "being prepared to choose Not Me over Me".
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I think Tom is misrepresenting Rat a bit in his argument, saying things like "Scum would get town credit for hammer if they were around" when Rat said that Delta or myself would try to claim credit for hammering, not that we would actually get it. (For the curious, Bard's "Contemplating roleclaiming" line made me hold off voting him until after he did so, because that's basically a non-vanilla claim and I wanted to hear what it was before making a final decision. Then the hammer vote came in the same post as the claim, so I ended up doing nothing.)
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I admit I was wondering about any clues Excal left in regards to whom he investigated, and happened to see this again as I was going through looking at Ciato stuff:
Ciato/Rat. These two... their posts read clean, but something about them is definatly pinging my scumdar.
Though I'm guessing Alex already saw it given his line about the length of Excal's joke vote and simply didn't bother bringing it up.
---
Whar be Delta?
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I don't like the way Alex is trying to play the metagame. Sanity isn't a given, 11 players is enough to have slightly off-centre roles, I don't see how you can presume that.
More on Soppy. Like I said, for the first chunk of day one he pretty much latched on to Cid on a single point and then didn't really seem to drop any new insight as things went down.
Sopko seems to get slightly more involved this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31624#msg31624) point. Only all he does here is come to the conclusion that Cid and Bard are equal in his eyes. He's been on Cid forever and seemed quite unshakable despite saying little, and... he doesn't actually seem to say much bad about Bard. Yet somehow, they are equally targetable. He seems to level the playing field and not really try to make judgements, instead leaving it up to everyone else.
The only time he really seems to get stuck into Bard is at the very end, after everything has virtually been said and done and Bard's lynch is all but assured.
It feels to me as though he would've been willing to go in whatever the prevailing direction was with these two. It is a similar complaint as that I had with Dread Thomas, but not quite wearing his heart on his sleeve so much (and I think Cid and Delta are town, so while scum-Sopko would be hoping for a particular direction in his case, scum-Tom just wouldn't care.)
Ninja edit: Oh for Heaven's sake. Why do people post so much worthwhile stuff this game while I'm in bed? :(
Dude. DUDE. How do you think I feel >_<
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-Sopko because he never really seemed to push his vote on Cid, even when he said it was absolutely sealed. He kinda just hung out there, silently approved of what others were saying, and only when everyone else had turned sour on Bardiche did he really get involved. I'd like him to explain why he jumped off Cid when he did, and then why it took him so long to jump on Bard.
##Vote: Sopko right now.
On the Cid point, I did push it. To the extent I did depends on your opinion.
On the Bard one, when the vote swings like that, even in Day 1, I usually get extremely cautious. It made sense that Alex switched over, as he had been on Bard in the beginning, but a few reasonable posts by Cid didn't completely exonerate him to me, and it took Bard a while to really stick his foot in his mouth in terms of trying to worm out of it. The breaker was while Cid's posts was a bit defeatist, he still posted his thoughts, listened to other people and changed his opinions to the end rather than just wildly defended himself. I had to see Bard's reactions to things before I could be comfortable switching over.
At the moment, I'm thinking Rat or Ciato.
Bardiche self-hammering lead me to believe that none of his scumbuddies were both around and hadn't voted for him already, otherwise I'm sure they would've just swung in with the hammer and possibly claimed some credit rather than let him just self-kill.
Don't you meet those qualifications, Rat? In fact, I only think just about EVERYONE meets those qualifications, with the exception of Kilga and Excal, one of which is confirmed town. That you'd say something to that effect and not actually take a look to who fits it is strange. Also Rat, so you're saying you think you're the one that was investigated? Do you also want to say that you've got some odd role that makes powers act oddly on you? It does look to me like Excal was hinting at you, and I don't think he's the type to question his sanity Day 1. All things being equal, thats enough to go on for now.
Ciato meanwhile again has been incredibly limited in her scope of action this game. She hasn't said anything for anyone but Cid today, and yesterday... possibly even less. She jumped on the Bard train with little reasoning. She's not exactly helping, but I'll take the case against Rat first over just not being here. For now.
##Vote: Rat
Ninja'd by Rat: Actually, I think I answer this in this post.
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I don't want to talk about myself and have nothing to say that I haven't already said about Excal.
Don't you meet those qualifications, Rat? In fact, I only think just about EVERYONE meets those qualifications, with the exception of Kilga and Excal, one of which is confirmed town.
Uh, what do you mean? I isolated two people who were around near the end of the day and hadn't voted for Bardiche- Kilga and Delta.
Me and Dread Thomas weren't around, being in bed. Everyone else was already on the Bardiche train. Nobody else looked better in my book for this.
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Right. I see that now. My bad. Though was Delta really around? (Not an accusation, honest question)
I still don't agree with your assertion that the hammerer automatically gets credit. That's usually incredibly situational, and to blanket over a critical act like a hammer with a statement like that is just not good logic.
As for the Cid thing again, you claimed I had no conviction on the Cid vote at first, despite keeping it and rebuttling when you questioned me on why I didn't think Delta was guilty (to your apparant satisfaction). You also seemed perfectly content to go along with me when I called Cid on the personal attack, and all you really have to bank on is your lack of involvement in the affair to skirt suspicion on voting Bard or not. Like people said, scum can have legit excuses.
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Yes, I was indeed around when the hammer fell. I was reluctant to cast the hammer vote lest I accidentally lynch a cop or something. (That... has happened to me before) I wanted to be sure. Straight after hammer, I went to sleep.
Okays. Down to buisness. (still reeling from school so I am gonna be consise)
Sopko - Still reading mostly townie.
Rat - Looks quite suspicious to me right now, seems to be trying to sow a bit of doubt about kilga and myself. Just because i was on when the hammer dropped, doesnt mean im scum.
Ciato - Looked mainly as a neutral day 1, she just did some meta-analysis to me. I think Ciato may be townie but im on the fence right now.
Kilga - Also reading mostly neutral, edging towards townie. Seems to be prodding ET right now.
ET - Not too much to go on really, a few posts that read scum. I'm officially recommending a Rat lynch. My vote is serious.
Although, his reasons are quite good.
Others - will do when i get back home in about... I dunno an hour?
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Rat: Not wanting to incriminate yourself is one thing. But what's everyone going to do the next morning after someone dies and flips Cop? Go back and reread the cop's posts. It was probably a given that someone would've made the connection, and mentioning it yourself in advance would've avoided accusations like Tom's (or at least minimized their impact). Pointing it out yourself as soon as you noticed it would've been the best thing to do.
Personally not convinced that Excal did investigate Rat and leave the jokevote as a hint. The whole "Rat is always scum" thing wore out its welcome a while ago, so it did kind of surprise me that Excal used it for his first post, but...I do agree with Rat the sanity is not a given. CC Mafia had a paranoid cop with only thirteen players. And the possibility that Excal breadcrumbed his night zero investigation does not constitute proof. We need to have multiple investigations and at least one cardflip in hand to be sure we can rely on cop results. All we have now is something that can be interpreted as a suggestion; I'm going to treat it as a minor detail if at all.
---
Basically in agreement with Alex on who the suspects are right now, though I personally have nothing to pin on Kilga. Soppy looks a little better for breaking down Rat posts, though his hands-off attitude to day one still stands out.
Muppy edit: Good to see you're back, Delta. And yeah, I don't see any reason to hold the fact of you not hammering Bard against you, given that you'd explicitly said you were waiting for him to roleclaim.
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Ciato (2): Kilga, El Cid
El Cid (1): Ciato
Soppy (1): Rat
Kilga (0):
Rat (2): Dread Thomas, Soppy
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (0):
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Soppy, watch word count please. You're going a bit over, especially with quotes added in.
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Ciato stuff.
Cid...
-has been not so present in parts despite being around a lot
-doesn't seem to cultivate discussion unless he is on the line
A fair observation. I'm endeavoring to remedy this.
-essentially the same argument he uses against me about Bardiche, except it makes more sense for him to do so since the other option was -him-.
Eh? I just went back and reread the post where I voted Bard and I don't see any of the same reasons I've cited for suspecting you. What really clinched it in Bard's case was him suggesting loony scum team pairs. It reeked of a desparate need to redirect pressure. Beyond the fact that I mentioned you for other reasons in the same post, I don't know how you see a parallel here.
The main problem, Ciato, is that you focused almost entirely on Excal yesterday, essentially relying on the same argument the whole time. "Low presence, lack of original material." There were others who fit the same criteria, though--Soppy, Kilga, Cor (and, admittedly, myself)--yet you commented on them only in passing. If it took a potential lynching to rouse me, the same could be said of you: you didn't change your tune until it was down to Bard and myself. You were on Excal from page two and didn't let go until it was clear he wasn't a viable lynch candidate for the day.
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##Vote: Ciato
Well I might as well put this down while I wait for her to answer.
The first cases that were brought against her are quite flimsy (seriously, deadline alarmism charges? On day 2 when we have a scum flip in hand?) but her day 1 vote pattern and more importantly her wacky as heck case against Cid today bring her to the fore. That is a really, really odd case for her to be making.
Rat, are there any people you think are particularly townie outside of me and Cid?
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Ive looked at rat's posts and i do think that he is push more doubt between the townies.
##VOTE:CARTHRAT
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:(
I do not think Rat should be voted for at this time.
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Ciatokins, if you were Bard's scumbuddy how would you have played day 1 differently?
I would have not attacked him in any meaningful fashion because he clearly couldn't handle any type of pressure. Also would have made a point to interact with him from the start. This is such a weird question.
Do you actually contest anything I said about Ciato? She was topical and needed to be discussed. I'm leaning towards notscum, but I found it odd that she didn't deny the concept of her bussing Bardiche due to timing, if nothing else. It isn't a clear case.
I think that it's a judgment call is all. I don't see the validity of it but I am biased.
Alex has pretty much played hardball in the way that Alex does, he is basically number one on the townie list for me. Too much ridiculousness involved in it.
I actually forgot Tom was playing at all, which others have mentioned. Weird. Eerie.
Kilga, Excal did not put energy behind anything. I've already explained this previously. Nothing he said... ever for the most part showed much ambition at all. I am sorry I wanted to ask Delta a question about his stupid playstyle while being hesitant to vote for someone who had two votes within three posts. 1/3rd is not trivial at all, it goes out of the territory of pressure and into seriousness to me.
Kilga is pretty close to the bottom of my list of people I suspect, he seems to be well-intended.
Rat has been far less present than is par for Rat course, I'm not sure precisely what to think about that. presumably just busy and clashes with a lot of the time zones that we run.
Sopko I feel like has made some key points on things which cannot be ignored. He's pretty good in my book, and excuse or no, he did have a pretty good reason for not being around parts of Day 1.
Delta… what can I say about Delta. I’m not sure what to make of such a player, although I will generally concur with the sentiment that Bardiche defending him makes it pretty unlikely that he is scum because that's just a little too obvious.
So basically the people I suspect most are Cid as I outlined last night, and Tom and Rat for just plain not standing out to me in any meaningful fashion.
Alex, what do you consider wacky about my post? Wacky isn’t exactly specific. <_<
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Well mainly the fact that you are even considering the possibility of Cid being scum at this point in time.
Can you really envision a Bard/Cid scumteam playing that way? Where Cid gets a train run on him and Bard just sits back and wrings his hands and says he won't hammer? Where Cid folds under pressure but then saves himself by starting to contribute at the last minute, and then we turn and look at Bard, and Bard falls apart completely and says we should lynch Cid (?!) and me? And neither of them ever present serious cases on other good viable candidates, like Excal? (Discounting Cid's Sopko push, which all of no one bought into, it wasn't viable)
I sure can't. I have a hard time seeing this as a serious case that TownCiato would push. If you really think Cid is scummy, where were you yesterday and what's with the hand wringing about him not being a good lynch (but the town cop is)? What about Bard's flip makes him suddenly more suspicious?
I can however see Bard/Ciato as a plausible team. Ciato played a good supporting role to Bard, stayed on Excal most of the day, and her prodding him about hammering/voting on Cid is kinda fishy. Her case on Cid today is wacky and the only way it really makes sense to me is scum looking for something to get out of the suspect pack and not thinking straight.
I am comfortable with my vote.
-
Ciato (3): Kilga, El Cid, Alex
El Cid (1): Ciato
Soppy (1): Rat
Kilga (0):
Rat (3): Dread Thomas, Soppy, Delta
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (0):
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
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Ciato, of course Excal didn't put that much force behind anything. He had a big role. He couldn't afford to stick his neck out Day 1.
Don't see how you can forget Tom was playing either. He's not overly vocal, but not lurking, and makes his own points. Came on Rat first thing today.
There's a lot of evidence for Cid being town, Ciato. Alex laid out the case pretty well. If you're really ready to ignore all that and go with the same tactic as yesterday of going after solely one person, then it seriously sets you ahead of the game in my book.
-
So, we're deadlocked. Going to break down Ciato vs. Rat for those on the latter:
-Ciato stuck with one case for the majority of day one. There's something to be said for staying focused when you have good reasons to suspect someone, but she latched on to Excal very early in the game, quicker than I think is reasonable to be so convinced about someone's alignment. This suggests to me that it was an artificial case.
-This looks doubly strange onsidering the number of other people she could've hit for the same reasons she criticized Excal.
-She's presently going after the runner up from yesterday (who just happens to be myself, yes). This is typically a safe and easy position for scum to adopt on day two.
-She also suggests I'm suspicious because Bard was pushing Alex near the end instead of me, when I would've been an easier lynch. The last line of this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=31633;topic=1900.150;num_replies=220;sesc=a8b625238fd5880df2dd1d268c4a41d7) as well as this one (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=31641;topic=1900.175;num_replies=220;sesc=a8b625238fd5880df2dd1d268c4a41d7) should disprove that claim. He didn't push for me aggressively, but he was certainly willing to point people in my direction.
I strongly caution people against assuming Excal investigated Rat yesterday because he left his jokevote up for a long period of time. Unless someone can find other clues, I remain unconvinced. I have my own suspicions about who Excal investigated and I don't believe it was Rat.
I'd like to address Delta in particular here and ask why he's voting for Rat. You've made statements to the extent that Rat is "sowing doubt among the townies," one of them being yourself, but this is rather vague. He may have criticized you, but that was day one. More recently, he's said he's quite convinced you're town. I believe your stance on him is mostly refelxive self-defense which is not warranted since he's now moved on. Remember that Rat (if he is a townie) would have no special knowledge of your alignment and you shouldn't assume he's anti-town just because he called attention to you. I think you should reexamine your position, or at least give us more concrete reasons to believe it.
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Delta: I said you and Kilga didn't look scummy, not that you did. Please read the actual words.
Alex: Kilga and Delta don't seem likely scum to me (though this is hardly absolute.) Cid is mostly clear to me. You... I'm weirded out by your questions today (why ask Ciato what she would've done if she's scum? How can that help? o-o) but I can't ignore being the first to swing at Bard. Rehashing I know. Nobody else looks particularly townie to me.
Sopko: No, you don't really push Cid's case vocally, though I guess sticking to it like glue might count. You do toss a couple minor questions at others and eventually tear yourself off. All your play in the second half seems geared to try and roll with the punches and to only lynch Bard if it becomes necessary more than waiting for him to dig a hole.
Ngh. I also don't really see how you expect me to handle having missed what I missed, I can't just not comment on it. I will grant that the hammer thing on Kilga/Delta is hardly rock solid, but I'm still going with it for today.
I'm not comfortable here. I don't think Ciato is scum, since she had a golden opportunity to just hammer Cid yesterday and instead chose to get all worried and stallish. I don't think it was an elaborate act because she just wasn't there for most of the day, and thus genuinely may not have had a clear picture of things.
What do other people think of Soppy?
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Don't see how you can forget Tom was playing either. He's not overly vocal, but not lurking, and makes his own points. Came on Rat first thing today.
I wasn't suspicious of Ciato especially much until this came up. Obviously I agree with Soppy here. FoS Ciato because she's at -2 and I don't see the need to put her at -1 at this point in time.
/
I'm in full agreement with Alex re: Cid. Continuing to pursue Cid is odd indeed. See above.
I had typed a bunch of stuffs about how I wanted Rat to post move his views and all that and evidence on him.. which he just did in a ninja post. So deleting all that for now. I don't have time before work to rethink my views though (gotta get ready for work) but I'll be back later on today (my time). Gotta run >.>
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****!
more* not move.
That's what happens when I'm in a rush so I don't miss my train. I think I've typo-d every post so far. >_<
-
I asked her because I was over 50% on her already and wanted to see what her answer would be. From a townie I would have expected something like "Well, nothing, I guess" or "I would have hammered Cid." I am of the belief that connections are most important once there has been a scum flip and indeed I wouldn't object to everyone else answering that same question.
I don't see how not hammering Cid helps Ciato's case here since in the Bard/Ciato scumteam theory we already have Bard steering clear of hammering Cid (while Ciato pressured him to vote, no less!). Why would she hammer when the day was looking like a done deal anyhow and they'd have the opportunity to keep both scum off the D1 mislynch? I mean it isn't like someone's going to do something crazy like unvote Cid and turn it around on Bard all of a sudden right? Until that happened Cid was a sure thing, after that Cid wasn't hammerable.
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What do other people think of Soppy?
Pretty sure I've said my piece here. However, because I fully agree with your analysis, I'll second it:
Sopko: No, you don't really push Cid's case vocally, though I guess sticking to it like glue might count. You do toss a couple minor questions at others and eventually tear yourself off. All your play in the second half seems geared to try and roll with the punches and to only lynch Bard if it becomes necessary more than waiting for him to dig a hole.
That said, he's put in a better effort today and I feel Ciato's presently a stronger candidate.
-
(Links to posts are in the bullet points.)
Soppy summary, per Mokotan request:
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31423#msg31423) Agreeing with other people on Alex, meaningless musing on Bard, stating the obvious about me. Nothing that can really be called content.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31461#msg31461) Attacks Cid for ignoring Rat's post and attacking an argument (mine)...that had been made several times? I can't tell if Soppy is referring to my argument against the group of people I singled out or Cid's argument against me, but neither was an argument that had been made several times before Soppy said what he said, so, uh, wat. As for ignoring Rat, Cid provides a time restriction excuse later, which is plausible and not indicative of scumminess, so it's not really worth trying to read. I would have waited more than a half hour to see if Cid was simply writing up a second post before accusing him of avoiding an attack.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31526#msg31526) A whole bunch more nothing. Ironic given what Soppy is accusing Cid of. (It even takes a second post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31529#msg31529) just to explain why Delta cleared himself, and a third (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31536#msg31536) to explain it.)
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31549#msg31549) Simple Alex clarification /r/. Nothing major.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31557#msg31557) The "personal attack" reasoning is a useful one to keep a heretofore weak vote on because not many, if any, are going to question it unless there is next to zero foundation for it.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31559#msg31559) Thoughts that are more personal than gameplay in nature.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31589#msg31589) Random non-committal Alex poke. Why?
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31592#msg31592) Clarification for Cid. Meh.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31595#msg31595) I can't even make heads nor tails of this one.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31604#msg31604) Wavering about Cid, the only person Soppy's had a solid opinion on the entire game. Was there really no one else worth looking at?
More later when I have a word limit reset to work with.
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Oh hey there was a question in that Rat ninja.
Soppy is pretty high up there on the lurker scale. I can follow his thought processes and he hasn't done anything actively alarming. This puts him juuuuuuuust behind Rat and Ciato right now.
I think Ciato and Rat's active wackiness outweighs him for right now. Definitely a looker though.
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Finishing up. <3 Foxy
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31618#msg31618) Asking Bard about other players despite not having provided an opinion on half the players himself.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31624#msg31624) Opinion on Alex. Probably the best analysis Soppy had done to that point...and it was in backing off of someone he had minorly poked a couple of times.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31626#msg31626) Well, at least he's honest about having a lot of neutral opinions. >_>
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31632#msg31632) Cid Unvote. I think this brings Soppy's net accusation total to roughly 0. Maybe 0.03 for his comments about Bard.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31637#msg31637) Slowly moving toward Bard with the first real content-laden post that aims to take someone down. At this point, though, Bard's lynch was obviously imminent.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31640#msg31640) Bard vote, sealing the deal. Curiously, this post seems devoid of an actual reason to vote for Bard - even just restating what he had said before about Bard would have been better than nothing.
I can see why there are bad feelings toward Sopko. If Ciato (or anyone else) gives me a good reason to unvote her I'll gladly move here.
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Ciato (3): Kilga, El Cid, Alex
El Cid (1): Ciato
Soppy (1): Rat
Kilga (0):
Rat (3): Dread Thomas, Soppy, Delta
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (0):
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is in 20 hours.
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Why would she hammer when the day was looking like a done deal anyhow and they'd have the opportunity to keep both scum off the D1 mislynch?
I thought about this for a long time, and I guess you've got a point.
I'm still reserved, though. I feel that the timing on her switch to Bard just doesn't fit with a scumbuddy of his, not when Cid was still within easy lynching distance and the case pressed on him was not a sure thing. I was really surprised when she didn't contest this herself, though.
I guess I'm more comfortable switching, although I would still prefer a Soppy lynch. I don't think he's handled himself particularly well today, either, and his play just fits in so neatly as Bard's buddy over day one. I'm staying here for the time being.
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(Links to posts are in the bullet points.)
Soppy summary, per Mokotan request:
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31423#msg31423) Agreeing with other people on Alex, meaningless musing on Bard, stating the obvious about me. Nothing that can really be called content.
Considering it's the second time I bring up Bard in this context, I don't particularly see why it's meaningless, especially when you're saying I had no opinion of Bard before the train on him got started.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31557#msg31557) The "personal attack" reasoning is a useful one to keep a heretofore weak vote on because not many, if any, are going to question it unless there is next to zero foundation for it.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31559#msg31559) Thoughts that are more personal than gameplay in nature.
Given the amount of support I got for this reasoning, I'm surprised you'd cast this in a negative light. Personal attacks do nothing to help town and are usually a scum delaying tactic. That Cid would resort to this before being more reasonable was pretty damning for him at the time.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31589#msg31589) Random non-committal Alex poke. Why?
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31592#msg31592) Clarification for Cid. Meh.
- (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31595#msg31595) I can't even make heads nor tails of this one.
I don't particularly think that the clarification for Cid can be made light of, since it was one of the things that started to get him back on track in terms of the argument. As for the Alex thing, I play devil's advocate a lot, which is why I get in trouble in Mafia a lot. It's always good to question possible motives even if they're on your side. I already know that Alex personally feels targeted sometimes when playing due to his strong playstyle, but I wasn't going to let that stop me from questioning him.
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According to my calculations, it's been about 20 hours since Ciato last posted. I'm going to go to bed soon, and if she hasn't posted when I wake up in the morning then I'm going to move my vote from Rat to Ciato.
Because at least Rat has been contributing. If Rat is scum, we'll catch him out (hopefully). LurkerCiato is a bigger problem. If Ciato his hoping to drop off the radar then that's scummy enough for me to shift my vote, because there's a few outstanding points against her which she needs to comment on. I know school etc. can get in the way (or sleep for you people on the other side of the world), but that's my plan.
Time's running out! Let's make it count.
-
- Second time you brought up Bard? That was only your second post period, and your first one was a joke vote for Ciato.
By "meaningless" I mean you took a "well, this could be good, but this could be not so good, but it's Day 1, so whatever" approach to presenting your opinion, which is not useful to the rest of us at all. If it's worth noticing, you should take an actual stance, and if it isn't you shouldn't bring it up.
Also I did give you some credit in my second post for your Bard stance, though it was admittedly rather small.
- The thing is, the "personal attack" gave you a great out for keeping a previously weak vote on the guy, exactly because people were going to agree with you simply because of the attitude Cid exuded. (Personally, I blame a combination of Suicide Squad and general Otter stigma for everyone sans Alex not being willing to take a harsh stance on anything, but I'm not here to play Freud.)
- The Cid clarification "meh" was more for that post not really leaning you one way or the other.
The Alex thing seemed needlessly distracting, especially since you didn't take a more solid stance and even tried to simply brush it off at the end. It came off as nothing more than seed-sewing.
---
All that and no explanation for the "argument that's been made multiple times" mistake?
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- Second time you brought up Bard? That was only your second post period, and your first one was a joke vote for Ciato
Blah. I combined two of the posts in my mind. The meaningless comment was in my head while I was looking at:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31526#msg31526
The Alex thing came about because it became more and more apparant towards the end that Alex being scum was highly unlikely. I said as much. Don't know why you'd say that I just tried to brush it off when I went over in detail why I thought Alex couldn't be scum anymore. That was a big part of why I switched from Cid to Bard.
As a note, I wasn't in Suicide Squad mafia. And I'm not sure why you're saying that I'm not willing to take harsh stances on anything when personal attacks are usually the thing I come down hardest on. Ask Alex about Clue Mafia sometime.
On another note, I'm beginning to re-evaluate my vote on Rat. On first thought, it was way too suspicious to me that he would admit he figured he was targeted by Excal Night 0, and Excal ends up dead Night 1. This isn't exactly as bad as I was picturing in the first place, since even if he knew and was town, he wouldn't say anything anyway unless he thought Excal was scum.
Ciato on the other hand, re-reading her Day 1 posts into her vote, I have to say I have a better opinion of her reasons for voting... but basically it's out of a game of being here and doing very little she becomes extremely observant and drops the right vote at the right time? (IE a good time to avoid suspicion).
##Unvote: Rat
Enough for that, for now.
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Ciato seems to be inactive... Lurking maybe? Hmmm... I am really considering switching my vote to ciato now. She did appear to be critizing Excal in day 1. Maybe trying to stir up some distrust. Also, ciato isnt contributing AT ALL. lurker-town is damaging us and it needs to end. Now.
##UNVOTE: CARTHRAT
##VOTE: CIATO
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Hammer!
Ciato (GODFATHER SCUM) was last seen drowning in a vat of ice cream (lynched)
Day 2 Final Votecount
Ciato (5): Kilga, El Cid, Alex, Delta, Anonymous
El Cid (1): Ciato
Soppy (1): Rat
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Dread Thomas, Soppy, Delta
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (0):
With 8 alive, it took 5 to lynch.
Day 2 has ended! Send in Night 2 actions.
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A eerie silence descends...
No one dies over the night!
Day 3 has started! It ends on Sunday, 9/7, 12:00pm (noon) PST, barring autoextends.
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Good luck.
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Wow, pretty abrupt end there. Delta's either town or absolutely crazy, assuming the Anon vote was his. Given that it hadn't shown up at all until then, it could be anything.
Assuming there are indeed exactly two scum.
Sticks out. Is quick to point out in response to the previous post (Excal's) that there are two scum.
With there being three scum, I feel more confident in my Rat vote again, and also look in Kilga's direction.
With Rat, it's the suspicions of yesterday plus the vote result. Both he and Ciato were going after one specific person at the expense of one of the people who were most suspected. I'll grant him that one of them was him, but this is a lot like the kind of tactic he was accusing me of, stalling with the switch that would have put his scum buddy ahead.
Less focused on Kilga, but he seemed to be going after me awful hard if he was looking for a reason to unvote Ciato.
Based on this, I'm going with the first.
##Vote: Rat
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How could the anon vote be mine when i had already voted?
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...bwuh? @ proceedings
Sopko: I was "going after you hard" because you were there and responding and Ciato was, well, not.
About the scum count line, if I were a third scum, why on Earth would I bother bringing attention to Excal's metagame assumption rather than simply letting him sit there and assume there were two? He would have eventually found out the hard way on his own and no one would have any reason to attach my name directly to his mistaken assumption.
Also, you still haven't explained the "argument that had been made several times" deal from my first bullet point post about you. What did you mean?
Delta: Anonyvotes normally stem from someone after they've already voted. There are exceptions, of course, but it happens more often than not.
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But why do anonyvotes occur? Whats the point?
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The games just by ruined by laggy slipping a vote in! I really dont get this
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##Vote: Laggy
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Aha! Delta has broken this case wide open!
##Vote: Laggy
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And now that that has been dispensed with (it is a joke by the way)
RAT
Roleclaim or die.
EVERYONE ELSE
Consider mass claim at this point? More than two scum and a no death night is not something I can account for without more information.
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Excaliburned (1:10:36 PM): You big meanie you! Your Mod Vote just RUINED the game! ^_^
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Soppy
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (0):
Laggy (2): Haters
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch, unless it is Laggy, in which case you must eat cheese.
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(it is a joke by the way)
NICE DAMAGE CONTROL YOU DIRTY SCUM
I'm down with a mass claim, since I need all the help I can get >_> (plus I'm damn curious as to how what went down went down). My only reservation is if it's really necessary with this many people left, because I can't imagine LYLO is coming up very soon, but it's questionable whether the scum could do anything immensely useful with our info at this point anyway.
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Well
I'm done, I found scum, I'm 2 for 2 (4/5 counting last game I think? Logical aggro play, it works). Game should be over, we win, time to go home.
Okay. As far as my reasoning goes right now, we have
- 1 scum left
- Anonyvote
- Something that caused there to be no deaths last night
With the scum already having a roleblocker and godfather I can't see them having much if anything else. Claims may clear 2-3 townies.
##Vote: Tom
for the moment since he's the only one I can really see as part of a team with Bard and Ciato.
Rat needs to claim or die though.
-
LYLO is not until the day after tommorrow assuming we dont catch the killer and they kill someone. Then it will be... 3 people. Probably two townies but it's not quaranteed at this rate. I doubt there will be more than 3 scum in a total group of 11.
-
Delta: Don't fly off the handle about the anonyvote. Most likely it is tied to you, since you were the last one to vote on Ciato, but I don't have much explanation for why it didn't show up earlier. Possibly it only kicks if you put someone at minus one to hammer, but that's just speculation. There are roles that have multiple votes, and the extra votes generally show up in the count as Anonymous. Did your role PM state anything helpful in this regard? (Note: don't quote your role PM. >.> Paraphrase for us). If it just said you were vanilla, then I have no idea what was up with that.
However, it caught us scum, so no complaints on my part.
As for roleclaiming, I've already said I'm vanilla. My main suspect at the moment is Sopko, with Rat/Kilga/Tom some ways behind him, and Alex/Delta pretty much a nonissue.
~
Muppy sez: Mmm...cheese...
-
The main reason I am looking at Tom over Sopko is that I think Soppy would have led a scum team differently. Bard and Ciato both really fell to pieces when pressured and didn't seem to have much in the way of plans. They played like they weren't counting on a third member for support.
-
I am vanilla townie, Cid. I did state this is day one... Without realising it was fish instead of claim...
Also, maybe there isnt another scum but a loner that wants to kill, A seirial killer as it were.
-
Also, maybe there isnt another scum but a loner that wants to kill, A seirial killer as it were.
I'd considered a third-party player, but there haven't been any extra kills to demonstrate an SK's presence. Also, looking for a lone, self-aligned player is practically impossible. At least with a third scum player we can compare everyone's behavior with Bard and Ciato to find them, so I'll opt to consider the scenario we can actually do something with.
-
However unlikely it is, It is a possibility that we must consider. Unfortunate as it is, if that is the case, i am sure we will go into LYLO
-
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Soppy
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (1): Alex
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
-
Perhaps scum decided not to kill the first two times. It is unlikely though. I am inclined to beleive you, Cid but i just have this feeling... Will elaborate in the morning after a good nights sleep.
-
After many turbulent thoughts, I'll buy into the claim.
I'm a Town Doctor. Last night I protected Alex. Night 1 I protected Ciato, on the basis that I felt scum would go after someone quiet who would've attracted little attention. Right idea, wrong person.
With this though, I really want Alex to give more explanation on how exactly he found scum. I think I see your reasoning, but I want to hear what you have to say.
Why do I hear Admiral Ackbar in the background? >.>
-
That is precisely what I wanted to hear from Sopko (and one of the big reasons I haven't gone after him so much).
Not sure what you're asking for from me, though. I have been simply employing my usual strategy, refined a bit.
Bard, I won't lie, was partially luck and gut. He attracted my attention because the journalism style is bad (and this is exactly WHY it's bad, it's far too easy for scum to hide behind it if no one calls them on it). REALLY attracted me when he made that one post painting me as pushing for a Delta lynch and then doubled back on it while complaining about my attacks on his style, and no one called him on his doubling back except me. Cid put together a good last minute defense, so I pressured Bard instead to see what would happen. He collapsed, as scum do under good pressure.
Day 2 I was looking for someone flustered and coming out with a weird case, as I imagined scum would be and do. "I can't BELIEVE that happened to us yesterday, are you serious?" was the mindset I was looking for. Ciato fit. Pressured her, collapsed again.
I am vanilla townie.
Can anyone explain Anonyvote?
-
Alex: Don't want to claim on the grounds that it will not help people work out anything today, 100% guaranteed, your threats don't scare me. Mysterious mystery is better. I believe it is still too early for a massclaim in general. Also, did you get attacked last night?
I am likewise suspicious of Dread Thomas, but I don't actually have much in the way of associative tells to go with on him being part of a Bard/Ciato/Tom scumteam. It's more a question of what seems like simple laziness to investigate on his part; I particularly point to the end of day two, where he goes "Time's running out, let's make the most of it", but didn't seem to really lay down anything substantial himself.
Sopko: It would've been a significantly more optimal scum strategy for Ciato and scum-me to duke it out with a big ol' fight, or at the very least play the 'I'm saving my skin' card- at the end of the day, whoever lived wouldn't really gain or lose any (more) credit. I was in fact hoping for a switch to you (which should've been pretty obvious anyway), which is why I didn't jump on her.
-
Bzzt wrong answer.
##Unvote: Tom
##Vote: Rat
I was NOT attacked last night.
I strongly recommend that we lynch Rat today, barring an extremely good explanation of his actions.
I have nothing further to add until and unless the super power roles come out of the closet because the game is down to them now.
-
Are you actually forcing me to drag the reason for voting me out of you?
-
Well
You could just look at the reasons Sopko gave for voting you.
As well as the reasons everyone gave for making you the #2 suspect yesterday.
You've had an oddly low presence all game and what presence you have had has been devoted to things like seriously pushing a Delta lynch and absolutely obsessing over your bizzare "Excal investigated me, I'm sure, but he must have been insane" theory.
The acceptable answer and the roleclaim I was looking for was "I am obsessed with Excal being the insane cop because I'm the sane cop."
The alternative answer is "I am the last scum, didn't really communicate well with my teammates, and now I'm panicked and trying to set up a role gambit."
-
Oh and FYI I am pretty sure Excal investigated either me or Ciato (and received town in either case).
-
Oh and FY further I with a doc claim already on the table the massclaim ship has kind of flown.
In the (unlikely) event you do have some extremely wacky role that can explain stuff, you might as well lay it out and help us win today or tomorrow or you should be voting Sopko if you think he's lying.
-
PS refusing to claim and not voting Sopko further implicates you as scum if that wasn't clear.
MULTI POST DRIFTING WOOO
-
I don't understand what gambit Alex is alluding to... but I started yesterday's train on Rat so I refer to all my previous reasons if you doubt my vote.
And also, with only 1 scum left then it is not too early for roleclaim unless you're hiding something from the town.
##Vote: Rat
(Leaves him at -1)
BTW. I am le vanilla town.
PS. Alex why does not voting for Sop after refusing to claim = scum? Do you mean that unless you're Doc you should have nothing to hide? I think that's what you mean.
-
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (3): Soppy, Alex, Dread Thomas
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (0): Alex
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
-
Well
There is one scum left, and we have a pretty small pool of suspects already.
Sopko claimed doctor.
If he is telling the truth, that means Sopko is going to die tonight, unless scum feel like taking chances on someone else (and even if they do, Soppy can protect anyone of his choice if they have an obviously winning power role).
That means there's no reason for any townie NOT to roleclaim now, so that we can figure out the role setup and end the game today or tomorrow.
Unless Sopko is lying.
In which case he should be lynched.
I am not really seeing a third possibility here.
Unless you are scum and not thinking things through, which I think is what is going on with Rat.
The fact that I was not attacked last night is curious, but as Rat and I jointly invented the no-kill scum gambit, and the mod confirms scum are allowed to not kill, I am suspecting that might be what is going down here.
-
Okay, I'll bite. Considering that there are two scum down already and that there cannot possibly be more than one left, I see no reason for Town to not openly pool its resources at this point in time. Saying it's too early rings hollow. Even if we're wrong, we have at least one more day, so I'll trust in Alex's crazy mindreading powers for now.
Announcing intent to hammer unless anyone has any final comments. I'll give it fifteen minutes.
-
I wasn't voting Soppy because I wanted to find out whether he was a doctor for real or not, i.e. get your opinion seeing as you LIVED and are a PRIME TARGET and he TARGETED YOU FOR SAVING. Apparently. I would like to ask why you believe him, though.
As things stand? You want my roleclaim? YOU CAN'T HANDLE MY ROLECLAIM. I'm not a sane cop, sadly, but I'm a Watcher/Conditional Vigilante. I watch you in your sleep and can choose to shoot anyone who shows up targeting you. I watched Corwin on night zero (nothing!), Alex on night one (nothing!) and Cid on night two (nothing!) and didn't really want to claim because I can't substantiate it.
I was hoping Sopko would be shown to be a doctor by you, and that I could teeter along without getting lynched. I figured I wouldn't get NK'd tonight. If Sopko's claim was to be believed, he'd almost certainly get shot himself and I could watch him and kill whoever targets him.
Why would a no-kill gambit even be a good idea for scum right now, Alex?
Hesitant on voting because I'm stuck between DT and Sopko, but Cid forces me to post this right now.
-
Oh and FYI I am pretty sure Excal investigated either me or Ciato (and received town in either case).
For the record, I'm pretty sure Excal investigated me. I can't see any other reason he'd say something like the below quote after the day one I ran:
As for Cid, I've actually been getting fairly townie vibes from him. Maybe not playing that hard because he's also doing other things, and hasn't really got a clue as to where to go. But I've generally found him to be one of the more consistent folks. So, the only way I'm going to vote for him is if it's him or me.
~
Muppy edit: Ninjarat. The claim's rather exotic, but seems to fit what we've seen elsewhere in this game. It is conveniently unprovable, however. And I have to ask: why watch me?
-
Ciato was scum and on your case. Half the reason she got lynched was because she was on top of you and you came out of day one looking pretty good. It was a tossup between you and Alex for most-cleared-townie i.e. most-likely-NK to me at that point.
-
Errands suck. Now it seems like I don't even need to be in bed for interesting shit to go down.
Cid, how much additional time are you giving Rat now that he has claimed? I can roleclaim right now if Alex/whoever else wants me to, but if you're still going to lynch Rat, I could wait until Day 4 on the chance Rat flips Town (if he flips scum it would be academic anyway) because I doubt scum would come after me tonight.
-
If people are gonna keep talking, I'll keep waiting. I should be up for at least another hour.
-
Rat, none of that explains the "Excal investigated me" stuff.
I still have no explanation as to why there was no kill last night and what the Anonyvote is. That is at least two other roles in play, unless scum no-killed.
I WANT TO KNOW THESE THINGS.
I am a sad Alex when logic fails and I have to coerce other people into telling me all their cool roles that I had no idea existed.
Yes, Kilga that means I want you to claim. In fact your sudden burst of "I don't really want to claim today, let's lynch Rat" makes me want to vote you.
-
All right. I'm bulletproof.
Before you ask, I was also not attacked last night.
-
Hahahahahaha
What
So nobody claims Anonyvote.
Let me think.
-
It could be a scum role. Anonyvote isn't strictly town (though in an 8/3 setup that sounds harsh, it might make more sense for an ITP to have it though).
And maybe Kilga wasn't alerted to the fact that he was targeted? Or is there a rule I've missed somewhere..
Or maybe Delta has a conditional vote which he wasn't told of?
These theories are a bit of a stretch though, but watcher/conditional Vig? Bizarre in itself.
-
Just for clarification, since Alex brought this up earlier - if you are the target of a nightkill attempt and it fails you will be told that an attempt on your life was made during the night phase.
-
Rat, none of that explains the "Excal investigated me" stuff.
I already explained this, pages and pages ago in day two. I wasn't even obsessive over it like you said, people (you!) just kept asking me after the fact and I had to respond. It seems that everyone seems to think Excal targeted them night zero, lately. There are no more reasons for me to think the way I did (and for what it's worth, I stand by it.)
I believe Delta likely possesses the anonyvote, and it triggers when he pushes someone to -1 to hammer. I don't think he was aware of this. I don't think some other party possesses it and wants to keep it hidden, because Ciato was surely going to get lynched yesterday anyway and there was no need to push it along like that when you could keep it hidden and surprise people during LYLO.
-
Okay. Nobody is going to step up and claim responsibility for the lack of a kill last night? In that case it has to be due to the scum choosing no kill.
This lessens my suspicion of Dread Thomas because I can't see how going for nokill would benefit him in the slightest. +suspicion on Sopko and Kilga and to some extent Rat.
I'm not sure what to think of Rat's claim.
My kneejerk is that one of Sopko and Kilga is lying, but this is a weird setup no matter how you slice it.
How's this for a floating plan.
We lynch Kilga today, Rat watches himself, Sopko doctors Rat, Rat kills Sopko.
In the morning we end up with Sopko dead and Rat alive.
If Kilga is the scum we win via lynch now.
If Sopko is the scum, we win, as he is either ganked by Rat or does not target Rat and then we lynch him.
If Rat is the scum, we wind up with Sopko dead and are back where we started?
If Dread Thomas is the scum, we either wind up in the same case as above if he nokills or down one more person if he kills.
If Delta or Cid or me is the scum - ???
Discuss.
-
To clarify we are left with 5 alive if just Kilga and Sopko die and have 2 lynches to get Rat/Tom/???.
If the scum kills in addition to that we are left in LYLO at 4, but we can be assured that Rat is not the scum.
-
##Unvote: Rat
Role madness wheee
-
I can't watch myself.
-
My kneejerk is that one of Sopko and Kilga is lying, but this is a weird setup no matter how you slice it.
If it matters, I've been telegraphing being bulletproof since the beginning of Day 2.
Remove my post telling Laggy he needed to update the topic title (because my telegraph plan slipped my mind for a single moment), and, starting with my first Day 2 post, the first letter of each of my posts up to the first one I made after Rat claimed spells out "Wolfsbane", the common name for the TWG version of BP.
-
Okay, fine, change the night target to me. Does it still work?
I think so but I may be overlooking something.
(Why didn't you mention that earlier? Is there anything else you'd like to add like "I couldn't kill anyone night zero"?)
The lynch target today can also substitute someone else for Kilga, Tom probably, I just picked Kilga because of the higher probability 1 of Sop/Kil is lying.
-
Stepping in again, Night 0 explicitly allows no nightkill actions, scum or not.
-
Wouldn't a much better plan involve Rat watching Sopko?
-
Rat can't shoot Sopko if he's watching Sopko, nor can he see anyone that targeted Sopko.
-
Tom: I'm assuming Sopko can't target himself with doctoring. The whole upshot of this is basically to make Rat vig Sopko.
Sopko has played about the same as I would expect for a doctor. Then again that's also about what I'd expect for scum. Then again, see my earlier comments on how I can't see Soppy/Ciato/Bard.
Kilga hasn't played the way I'd expect from a bulletproof. Hasn't been nearly vocal enough nor tried to give off any role tells. I'm not sure how good evidence that is though. I could see Kilga/Ciato/Bard, I suppose. Kilga had some analysis early on that gave me townie vibes from him.
There's a very outside shot that Cid is the scum and Ciato day 2 was pulling an end run for him. I don't consider this anywhere near likely, but what the hey, we've got an unexplained nokill and an anonyvote, why not.
-
Sopko can't protect himself, Tom (probably. Docs usually can't), so this only achieves the desired effect if someone tries to kill Sopko. Which they won't, with us publicly deciding on the plan.
Alex ninja, argh.
-
Er, he can't see anyone that Sopko targeted.
-
Or Delta for that matter.
I can't see Delta no-killing, though.
Or me, I guess, in before I have to defend myself, defense is "if I was scum with Ciato and Bard I could have quite easily won this game without sacrificing the roleblocker day 1 and GF day 2."
-
Er, he can't see anyone that Sopko targeted.
No, but he would see Sopko being targeted, presumably, and try to kill the person who did it (also Sopko! ...Who probably wouldn't die, being protected. This is why we don't have self-protecting docs. Ignore this blather, my brain hurts).
-
Someone comment on that plan. Is it good, is it bad, who to lynch today, etc. My brain's racing 80 miles an hour and spinning in circles.
-
You lynch Kilga or DT. I'll kill Sopko, scum will presumably make a kill themselves... I'm guessing on Cid, but who knows, it might get mixed up. You're probably left with Kilga/DT, me, Delta and Alex in four-man LYLO. What happens next? Lynch Kilga/DT? Sounds like a decent enough plan to me, since Alex and Delta are on my cleared list.
Scum might not make a kill. I don't see how that's bad for town, since we're then left with 5 people and can probably comfortably make two lynches of whatever.
I asked Laggy about self-protecting docs. He wouldn't tell me the answer. It could go either way.
-
Now just a minute.
You'll tell people of failed kill attempts on them...
Scum are allowed no-kill...
Rat's theoretical power can't self-target...
But you won't confirm no self-doc?
##Vote: Laggy
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Ask Soppy!
Laggy (too many): Alexchan hates me
-
You're posting in the topic, Soppy's not.
-
Well what the hey. ##Vote: Dread Thomas. I don't see Kilga-scum claiming bulletproof, that gets you nowhere, and DT has raised my hackles all game for being indecisive and seeming to let others make up his mind for him without realling digging himself.
I have little to say about Kilga, having barely noticed him for most of the game.
-
Ah right.
All this metagame scheming is giving me a headache. I'm leaving my vote on Rat for now unless we come up with some kind of instant-win setup, because, Rat hasn't behaved like TownRat and he looks like scum. TownRat is always a lot more probing and proative, he's been completely reactive and passive in this game. And we have the whole Excal thing. I'd rather vote for somebody who is scummy rather than somebody who looks town 'but if our analysis of the bizarre setup is correct might get us a victory'. Because scum might be holding a special power over us, or we might just have it wrong.
But I've been fairly singleminded about going after him since the beginning of day 2, which I'll admit has caused me to look less at others, especially Kilga.
IMO scum are guaranteed to attack Sop if we let the game get to another night phase (unless Sop is scum). Or unless they do no-kill again.
Hm here's an idea, maybe the scum can give up their kill in exchange for an anonyvote? Would that solve all our problems?
<->
Rat: How do you know you'll be able to kill Sopko?
<->
Also: Why exactly are we trying to plan to kill Sop?
//
And: Well Rat, I think you're scum, so your vote doesn't phase me.
-
I'm not sure which of those two statements is intended to be more damning, Rat-chan. Guh.
Ninja by Tom
Tom we just came up with a pretty good win plan, were you not reading? I thought I explained it all pretty well.
##Vote: Dread Thomas
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Oh and as far as the whole role madness plan goes - it's all aimed at killing off the people who were in the suspect pool anyway! I am happy with this.
-
Tom: Scum getting the anonyvote is unlikely considering that it was used to kill the godfather.
Alex: Plan as originally outlined is acceptable, or would be if it was workable. Frankly, I'm still skeptical about this role of Rat's that gives us no results to check and has limitations that confound your attempts to plan out a lynch/night action scenario, and I'd rather vote for him than anyone else right now. But if you have an alternative, I'll go along with it.
Double-ninja'd. Sec.
-
Well, the point there is, if Rat is lying he is scum and if he is scum he has to kill Sopko anyway to keep appearances up, which means he isn't killing anyone else, which means we're at 5 man and can safely lynch Rat + 1 other target of choice.
-
If Rat is scum (which I most certainly think he is) then we're not going to get much out of this other than an expensive ride.
From my readong of the (confusing) plan, a lot of it is hinging on him doing what he says he can.
We should just lynch Rat today rather than waste our lynch on a plan which might not net us anything.
We should be lynching scum, not creating setups which might cause scum to act how we want. Forcing scum Rat to kill our Doc is a crap plan anyway.
Though I probably don't fully understand whatever gamebreaking it is we're trying to get off here.
-
Alex: Your plan can fail if Cid or Delta is the remaining scum.
Assuming Rat is today's lynchee, If Sopko and Rat are both targeting you and Rat shoots Sopko there's nothing stopping scum from killing Rat. This leaves You/Me/Cid/Delta, and I'm the only one left that you're dead set on. (Exchanging myself and Tom gets the same result.)
-
Forgot to note that You/Me/Cid/Delta would be LYLO since we're forced to lynch, but I'm sure you could have figured that out anyway.
-
Aha, Kilga spots the loophole. That's why I wanted it to go down with Rat himself being the target. And immediately forgot that. Hrm.
It can fail if Cid or Delta is the final scum, yes.
I wasn't planning on voting for them anyhow. I don't see anything that could really happen to convince me they are more suspicious than the Big 4 (Kilga/Rat/Soppy/Tom).
-
*Assuming Tom is the day's lynchee.
NO, FUCK YOU, BRAIN
-
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (2): Soppy, Alex, Dread Thomas
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (2): Alex, Rat, Alex
Laggy (Mrf): Why does no one love me
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
-
I cannot self-doc.
I cannot support this hare-brained idea, because it all hinges on scum acting the way we expect. Given that we're, I don't know, EXPLICTLY GOING OVER OUR PLAN, it's easy for them to screw it up regardless of who it is. I wouldn't have a problem doing the whole sacrificing thing if I were more sure that this plan would work, but I'm still skeptical.
Since I'm switching in between here and Maple responsibilities (Z-run night, checking in between runs), can someone link me to the post that shows that scum are allowed no kill?
I'll be back.
-
Alright. Alex's plan hasn't nabbed enough supporters yet, and I need sleep. Not having any kind of vote down would no doubt make it harder for you guys to resolve this after I leave, so...dropping a vote on the player whose claim I am most skeptical about:
##Vote: Carthrat
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No post, I asked Laggy on AIM.
With the scum down a roleblocker and GF already I am assuming that their capabilities are now limited to killing one person at night, yes. I don't see a way for them to mess this up regardless. If they do have something else, that's impossible to predict or play around and we all gang up and kill Laggy aftergame. Being open is necessary here in order to get Rat to actually kill you.
For the time being I'm down with lynching Tom, I've thought he's the scummiest aside from Rat's role oddness anyway. At night, you and Rat both target the same person so he can kill you, this lets us eliminate you from the suspect list without using a lynch and lets us either confirm Rat or win if Rat is scum one way or another.
-
I'd like to point out that this plan either clears me or kills me. Either Scum kill me tonight while I'm killing Soppy, scum kill *nobody* while I'm killing Soppy (and thus I get lynched the following day, taking us to 3-man LYLO), or scum kill someone else while I'm killing Soppy (and that should neatly prove my townhood, leaving us at 4-man LYLO except I won't be mislynched.)
So if you're actually suspicious of me but not suspicious of Delta/Alex/Cid, the plan is a far better idea than lynching me today. Only if you are suspicious of those three should you be arguing against this.
-
Thank you
That is what I have been saying
If we lynch Rat today we are left with only 2 lynches to deal with Kilga, Tom, and possibly Sopko, with a big dash of WIFOM about Sopko.
If we go with my plan, Tom (or Kilga) is lynched, Sopko and Rat are confirmed or dead, and we have a lynch left for Kilga (or Tom). (Or whoever.)
The suspect pool is narrowed.
-
All right, I'm convinced.
##Vote: EvilTom
-
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (3): Soppy, Alex, Dread Thomas, El Cid
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (3): Alex, Rat, Alex, Kilga
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
-
Well, I can't help but think we're being led into a big trap, but I'll have to bite. I'll go along with the plan, hopefully Rat holds up his end.
Take the shot, Rat.
##Unvote: Rat
##Vote: Tom
-
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/cyril_shinsei/eviltom.png)
Dread Thomas (VANILLA TOWNIE) counted from 3 and was blown to holy smithereens. Hallelujah! (lynched)
Day 3 Final Votecount
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (2): Soppy, Alex, Dread Thomas, El Cid
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (4): Alex, Rat, Alex, Kilga, Soppy
With 7 alive, it took 4 to lynch.
Day 3 has ended! Send in Night 3 actions.
-
Soppy (TOWN DOCTOR) broke his Zakum Helm, disconnected during a Horntail raid and had his guild invaded by standard Mapleites (nightkilled)
Day 4 has started! It ends on Sunday, 9/7, 10:00pm PST, barring autoextends.
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Good luck.
-
welp,
##Vote: Carthrat
-
##Vote: Carthrat
-
I believe a third party, not scum is at work. This is because a lone scum could've just killed me and dropped the game to four-man LYLO, which naturally gives him the best odds. They wouldn't kill someone else because that would leave them vulnerable to getting sniped by me even if they don't get lynched during the following night.
I don't think it's possible for Cid to be this party, since he would've had every reason to go for the plan rather than sit on me.
That leaves Delta, Alex, and Kilga. Delta I believe was responsible for anonyvote via accident, and it would be foolish to have revealed such a vote in any case just to hurry a Ciato lynch through.
Alex has mostly looked good all game because he's been hunting scum, but if he's a third party with some weird win condition then he has every reason to push for a mass roleclaim (to ID remaining threats) and possibly every reason to hunt scum anyway.
Kilga didn't argue against this plan when the opportunity was given (and he could have!). Bulletproof might as well be vanilla anyway. If I get my way, we'd lynch Alex now and Kilga later. I do not see Kilga just happily going to his death here. ##Vote: Alex
Hinges upon suddenly being willing to let me go, which I doubt, but it's worth a shot.
-
Rat would you kindly just hammer yourself so we can get this over with one way or another
If you're scum you're just dragging things out
If you're town I want to hurry up and hurt Laggy
-
No, Atlas. Or should I say FONTAINE
-
You know, I was even starting to doubt myself and suspect Cid or Delta.
Both of which are much more logical choices than a third party in an 11 man game with a win condition that calls for them to help town and hunt scum.
You really are not even trying.
:V
-
Oh God ##Unvote: Rat
I hadn't even considered third-party Alex.
-
El Cid (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Kilga, Alex
Delta (0):
Alex (1): Rat
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
-
This is ridiculous but I am bored and hate this game so I'll play along.
Third party what exactly.
With what win condition.
That would lead to me playing in what way.
And what makes you suspect this over someone else being scum.
-
No.
I can't see third-party Alex gunning for scum on Day 2 after getting one lynched on Day 1 and not killing anyone the next night. That would be insanity.
##Vote: Rat
-
The radio crackles.
"Rat (TOWN WATCHER & CONDITIONAL VIGILANTE), would you kindly get stepped on by a Big Daddy" (lynched)
Day 4 Final Votecount
El Cid (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (3): Kilga, Alex, Kilga, Anonymous
Delta (0):
Alex (1): Rat
Day 4 has ended! Send in Night 4 actions.
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Zzz.
Day 5 has started! There is no deadline. You are in LYLO.
With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Good luck.
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Sup Kilga
Got anything you want to say about that Anonymous vote?
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Only that it's gotta be you that has it.
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Certainly not.
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Well, I know it isn't me.
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So
Kilga is lying and is Scum Conditional Doublevoter, which makes sense as it balances out the otherwise odd role set (town has a cop and a doctor and a BP and a conditional watch/vig vs scum "conditional" RB and GF?)
--OR--
Cid is scum with an anonymous vote he can apply whenever he feels like it and left insane conditional instructions. I don't think so. If nothing else he could have claimed the vote to get out of trouble day 1.
--OR--
Delta is scum with an anonymous vote sitting around and playing everyone for fools. This is so awesome that I'm willing to lose to it if it is true.
##Vote: Kilga
--OR-- for people who aren't me
The role setup really is like the above and I am either scum who hounded his partners off day 1 and 2 or some wacky and unexplained third party.
Judge for yourselves which is most likely.
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Well hey, as long as we're metagaming, you realize that you're proposing an 8/3 setup where all three scum are special in some capacity vs. a cop, a doc, and a watcher/vig that could work for us or against us?
If Cid or Delta has that Anonyvote, we're now boned either way, so I don't need to hold this back.
#Vote: Sir Alex
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El Cid (0):
Kilga (1): Alex
Delta (0):
Alex (1): Kilga
With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
You are in LYLO.
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*##Vote: Sir Alex
Fucking octothorpes.
(I know Laggy counted it but still.)
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Yeah pretty much.
It's obviously 8/3 SOMETHING, and there's a non-town anonymous vote floating around.
The only question is whether it is a third scum (playing a no kill gambit) or third party.
I have yet to hear any sort of possible explanation for a non-killing third party with an anonymous vote that applies it sometimes towards some uncertain goal, or if such a thing does exist, what we are possibly supposed to do about it. I don't see how it can even be considered, much less acted upon.
So, scum doublevoter.
You make a lot of sense with it. You haven't voted much, and the anonyvote has reared its head where your vote has counted. You've been scummy for other reasons, low presence and so on. Bulletproof is a crazy extra power for town to have floating around especially if you are trying to postulate a no-kill third party.
I don't make any sense at all with it. If I had an extra vote why would I have used it twice and blown its cover before in those situations instead of saving it as a surprise for now? Why wouldn't I have just claimed it? It isn't like anyone was suspecting me anyway until the conspiracy theory stuff ramped up, I wouldn't have any reason not to claim it instead of vanilla. (Nor for that matter would you, but nor would ANYONE and SOMEONE is hiding it; you at least have some added apparent gain by claiming BP instead). I don't know what the deal is.
Cid also makes a weird sort of sense with it, that would be delicious irony, but yeah if it's him there's nothing to be done but throw the towel and kill Laggy. Delta would just be epic.
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A bunch of that can be turned right back around on you.
- Every time it has appeared, it was on someone you were voting for.
- Why would I have used it before now?
- Why wouldn't I have just claimed it instead of BP? No one would have noticed the Wolfsbane trail I left if I didn't point it out.
I don't find a no-kill third-party to be all that ridiculous in a game with scum and a conditional town Vigi. In addition, I find 8/2/1 a lot easier to balance than 8/3, which is weighted crazily against town (60% lynch accuracy rate minimum, not counting the conditional Vigi, which only has a 33% chance of killing scum anyway). Third party would explain you having no qualms with active scumhunting, and it would also explain your proposed "lynch in this order" plan with flaws that are worth ignoring if no one assumes you could be a third party.
And who stands to gain more from using their doublevote to lynch a second scum in two days, a third scum or a third party?
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Third scum, because third party can be anything. Literally anything.
Here's another one for you to try on
If there was a no-killing third party with a wacky win condition in this setup, and I was given it, I wouldn't play it. I would have dropped out and told Laggy to find a replacement, because that would be broken as heck. There is no way town can tell it exists, or what remotely it can do, or how they should go about finding and stopping it. You can call crazy theories all you want, I dunno, maybe every townie is secretly a third party. What you're effectively doing there is criminalizing good town play.
I'm not interested in even entertaining any third party theories like that. If one exists in the game, I quit, I'm not it and I'm not looking for it.
I'm looking for a third scum.
Yeah it's pretty ridiculous but this setup is pretty ridiculous already, we either have a bogus third party or a scum that's been no kill gambiting with a ghostly third vote that they can use at will, and indeed the setup is 8/3 as you said. No matter how you slice it the setup is whacked and I am incredibly disappointed with Laggy. But that's for aftergame. For now Kilga's the best bet for third scum.
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Appeal to Emotion much? You did this sort of thing once already on Day 2 of Clue Mafia, and - surprise - you weren't Town in that game, either.
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You know, I apologize if that came off harshly.
But really. How else, exactly, is it even possible for anyone to respond to that accusation?
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Oh, hell.
Yeah, Kilga's the obvious target at this point. Barring some truly masterful wolf-in-townie's-clothing play from Alex or Delta, he's really the only option. I was going to say something about being careful about dropping votes today given what happened on days two and four, but you know what? I think I've seen enough to make up my mind about this, and I'm going to be gone for most of today, so:
##Vote: Kilga
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Did you even read the last page of this thread? You didn't address anything that's come up recently.
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But really. How else, exactly, is it even possible for anyone to respond to that accusation?
You're expecting me to address an accusation that, if true, would mean:
- The setup was horribly unbalanced against town
- I went three consecutive nights without NKing anyone
How does this make any more sense than a third party possibility? At least in a third party scenario, it makes sense to actively scumhunt.
But if you want something to address, I want you to explain why you were so good at scumhunting on the first two days and then were perfectly willing to put forth and execute a plan that had a big hole if one of two people you assumed were town weren't (even after this hole was pointed out, no less).
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El Cid (0):
Kilga (2): Alex, El Cideon
Delta (0):
Alex (1): Kilga
With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
You are in LYLO.
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Oh no... Why do i have to make this deicision? It currently falls to me to make the deiciding vote.
Third scum, because third party can be anything. Literally anything.
I'm not interested in even entertaining any third party theories like that. If one exists in the game, I quit, I'm not it and I'm not looking for it.
Alex seems to be (in a weird way) Over-denying it... Hard to explain really...
But really. How else, exactly, is it even possible for anyone to respond to that accusation?
You're expecting me to address an accusation that, if true, would mean:
- The setup was horribly unbalanced against town
- I went three consecutive nights without NKing anyone
This does not mean that you didnt do it...
Oh, hell.
Yeah, Kilga's the obvious target at this point. Barring some truly masterful wolf-in-townie's-clothing play from Alex or Delta, he's really the only option. I was going to say something about being careful about dropping votes today given what happened on days two and four, but you know what? I think I've seen enough to make up my mind about this, and I'm going to be gone for most of today, so:
##Vote: Kilga
Eh? Where are your explanations and theroies???
If Cid or Delta has that Anonyvote, we're now boned either way, so I don't need to hold this back.
#Vote: Sir Alex
I beleive that Kilga has the multi vote. However, this doesnt mean that he is scum. It is quite likely however, seeing as an anonyvote took out a scum. Possibly as part of a plot. Alex or Cid could have added their multi vote already and ended the game.
Appeal to Emotion much? You did this sort of thing once already on Day 2 of Clue Mafia, and - surprise - you weren't Town in that game, either.
You are attempting here to cast suspicion using an out-of-context example. Alex could be playing us for fools although i dont see the sense in that UNLESS there is a third party.
Im currently concerned about Kilga however i am not willing to cast the hammer just on these few quotes. Please, sway my mind someone.
(also, apologies about my absense)
(and, sorry if this is over 300 words, sorta over-compensating for my missed two game-days)
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Woah... really sorry about that. Shoulda previewed it first :-\
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You're expecting me to address an accusation that, if true, would mean:
- The setup was horribly unbalanced against town
- I went three consecutive nights without NKing anyone
How does this make any more sense than a third party possibility? At least in a third party scenario, it makes sense to actively scumhunt.
But if you want something to address, I want you to explain why you were so good at scumhunting on the first two days and then were perfectly willing to put forth and execute a plan that had a big hole if one of two people you assumed were town weren't (even after this hole was pointed out, no less).
You are expecting me to address the same accusation, if your own is true. 8/2/1 is even more horribly unbalanced than 8/3. Having a no kill third party in an 11 man game is even more unbelievable than scum pulling a 3 consecutive night no kill gambit.
Now, you're right in that one of these two scenarios has to be true. I can't really say anything in response to that.
I was good at scumhunting on the first two days because, to put it bluntly, I'm just that good, and got a little lucky.
The plan did not have a big hole. Despite what you pointed out, it still was the best way to achieve the goals of lynching (and vigging) the people town thought were most suspicious. Before that plan came out, everyone wanted to lynch Rat, Tom, Sopko and you, in slightly varying orders. The plan was the best way to accomplish that.
The Anonyvote's appearance confirms that we are dealing with one of three possibilities - it's Kilga, it's me, or it's Cid or Delta. Cid and Delta are grouped here because if it's either of them, they would have to be allowed to cast it without attaching their own vote. I cannot reasonably believe this would happen. Obviously, I know it's not me (and Kilga will be saying it isn't him). Cid and Delta must therefore choose which outcome they believe is more likely - my scenario of Kilga being third scum, or Kilga's scenario of me being third party. I think the answer is obvious, Cid agrees, Delta, it's up to you.
I apologize for my frustration in this game. It is just incredibly depressing to have been good at scum hunting and then have it thrown back in my face as a reason I could be third party, and not be able to say anything against it because the setup really would allow for that to maybe be true (albeit much less likely than the simpler explanation of Kilga being scum).
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Im going to hold my vote until Kilga posts. then, i will vote.
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Back from auditions, real post in a moment.
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On a side note, auditions for what?
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A regional handbell (http://www.schulmerichbells.com/) choir.
You are attempting here to cast suspicion using an out-of-context example. Alex could be playing us for fools although i dont see the sense in that UNLESS there is a third party.
What do you mean by "out of context"? The last time Alex flipped a nut, he was scum. Is what you mean?
Even without that outside example, the Appeal to Emotion (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Emotion) fallacy is fairly well-known. There is no need for town to rile other people up, because it's a distraction at the very least and can sway thought processes without using logic.
[You are expecting me to address the same accusation, if your own is true. 8/2/1 is even more horribly unbalanced than 8/3. Having a no kill third party in an 11 man game is even more unbelievable than scum pulling a 3 consecutive night no kill gambit.
Disagree. The huge difference in 8/2/1 is that not all of the anti-town roles are working together and, in fact, are better off with the other dead. As such, the game ostensibly starts at 9/2. 8/3 is 8/3 no matter how you slice it.
I was good at scumhunting on the first two days because, to put it bluntly, I'm just that good, and got a little lucky.
I'm not arguing your skill here. The point is that, as third party, you have every reason to scumhunt, because you need at least one dead (if not both, though a third party that lost one-on-one to scum would suck something fierce).
The plan did not have a big hole. Despite what you pointed out, it still was the best way to achieve the goals of lynching (and vigging) the people town thought were most suspicious. Before that plan came out, everyone wanted to lynch Rat, Tom, Sopko and you, in slightly varying orders. The plan was the best way to accomplish that.
It had a big hole in that it assumed two people were town. Either you were completely willing to give the game away if you were wrong or you knew beforehand they were town because you aren't.
I think the answer is obvious, Cid agrees, Delta, it's up to you.
Cid also clearly didn't even read what happened, since he made no mention of the third-party idea. I would understand taking it with a spadeful of salt if I brought it up, but Rat did it, and he flipped town, so it's worth some consideration.
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Forgot one in my deletefest.
I beleive that Kilga has the multi vote. However, this doesnt mean that he is scum. It is quite likely however, seeing as an anonyvote took out a scum. Possibly as part of a plot. Alex or Cid could have added their multi vote already and ended the game.
Your conclusion isn't necessarily true, as it's possible the Anonyvote isn't usable right now for whatever reason. It could have a condition attached that hasn't been met yet.
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Oh god... had to hit me with a brilliant argument like that.
Since his lack of contribution is... unsettling and I need a while to think CLEARLY,
##VOTE:EL CID
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Thanks, buddy!
##Hammer Vote: El Cideon
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El Cid (VANILLA TOWNIE) faced down in Final Destination, No Items, Fox Only... using Mewtwo. (lynched)
The game is over!
THIRD-PARTY (Kilga) WINS!
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TOWN
1. Excal (Insane Cop)
3. El Cid (Vanilla)
4. Soppy (Doctor)
6. Rat (Watcher & Conditional Vigilante)
7. Delta (Vanilla)
8. Alex (Vanilla)
10. Corwin (Vanilla)
11. EvilTom (Vanilla)
SCUM
2. Ciato (Godfather)
9. Bardiche (Conditional Roleblocker)
THIRD-PARTY
5. Kilga (Bulletproof Anonyvoter Survivor)
Night 0 Actions
* Excal: Investigate Rat
* Soppy: Do nothing
* Rat: Watch Corwin
* Ciato: No legal actions
* Bardiche: Roleblock Delta
Day 1: Bardiche lynched
Night 1 Actions
* Excal: Investigate Ciato
* Soppy: Protect Ciato
* Rat: Watch Alex
* Ciato: Kill Excal
Day 2: Ciato lynched
Night 2 Actions
* Soppy: Protect Alex
* Rat: Watch El Cid
Day 3: Tom lynched
Night 3 Actions
* Soppy: Protect Alex
* Rat: Watch Alex, Kill Soppy
Day 4: Rat lynched
Day 5: El Cid lynched
---------------------------------------------
Roles-
(TOWN)
* 1 Cop (Insane)
- Gets opposite result of normal investigation (e.g. town/godfather returns scum, scum/third-party returns town)
* 1 Doctor
- Protects one person from nightkill; can't self-protect
* 1 Watcher & Conditional Vigilante
- Watches one person a night; sees all people who target that person with a night action; can't target self
- Can make 1-time nightkill attempt on any person targeting his watchee, but permanently loses watcher powers afterwards
* 5 Vanilla
(SCUM)
* 1 Godfather
- Immune to nightkill attempts and returns town on normal investigations
* 1 Conditional Roleblocker
- Can blocks a target's night actions as well as any special powers; can't be used on consecutive nights
(3RD PARTY)
1 Bulletproof Anonyvoter Survivor
- Can place an additional anonymous vote on any person he is currently voting on if that vote would hammer; lynch happens immediately, final votecount will show "Anonymous" at the end; does not have to place his anonymous vote if he does not wish to
- Bulletproof immunes nightkill attempts; functions only once, player not informed of this
- Win condition: he survives and less than 3 other players remain.
---------------------------------------------
Dramatis Personae
(Excal)
You are a Cop.
During the night phase, you can choose any target to investigate. You will be then told whether that person's alignment is town or non-town. Your sanity is not guaranteed.
You win with the Town.
---
(Soppy)
You are a Doctor.
During the night phase, you can choose any target to protect. That target will be immune to nightkill attempts for the night, barring extraordinary circumstances. You cannot choose to protect yourself.
You win with the Town.
---
(Rat)
You are a Watcher & Conditional Vigilante.
During the night phase, you can choose any target to watch. If your watchee is then targeted by anyone else with a night action, you will see who such people are.
Optionally, you may choose to make a nightkill attempt on one of any such people targeting your watchee that night. This is a one-shot ability, and carries a consequence - you will permanently lose your Watcher powers henceforth.
You win with the Town.
---
(El Cid, Delta, Corwin, Alex, Dread Thomas)
You are a Vanilla Townie.
You have no special powers, because you're just that awesome and don't need them.
You win with the Town.
---
(Ciato)
You are scum!
You are the Godfather.
As the head honcho of the scum, you enjoy several benefits - you are immune to all nightkill attempts made on you, and return as town on normal cop investigations.
As the Godfather, you get the final word in deciding who the nightkill victim shall be.
Be warned, however, that if you are targeted by a roleblock yourself or decide to go on the nightkill, you lose all of your normal Godfather benefits for that night phase.
---
(Bardiche)
You are scum!
You are a Conditional Roleblocker.
During the night phase, you can choose to target one person and roleblock him and her - this will both block any night actions that person attempts and disable any of his or her role's powers, if applicable.
Your limitation is that you cannot use this power on consecutive nights.
If you go on the nightkill, however, you cannot use this ability on the same night phase. As your only other partner is the Godfather, you must decide whether it is worth the risk for him to go in your place so that you may use your roleblock power.
---
(Kilga)
You are third-party!
You are a Bulletproof Anonyvoter Survivor!
This role is complex, and if you need clarification contact me in IRC.
At any point during the day phase, you can place an additional anonymous vote on the person you are currently voting on. The stipulation is that you can only do this if that additional vote would hammer.
In such a case, the lynch happens immediately (whenever you notify me, preferably on IRC - if you wish to conditionally declare the anonymous vote in advance, for example, when a person approaches -1 to hammer, that's fine too) and the final votecount will show "Anonymous" at the end as the hammering vote. Other than the fact that you will be on the votetrain by association, it is in no other way visibly linkable to you.
You do not need to make use of this anonymous voting at all should you choose not to. It, however, effectively gives you an extra vote towards hammering power without blatantly tying yourself to it, which has obvious applications.
In addition to this, your bulletproof status renders you immune to all nightkill attempts made on your person.
Your win condition is as follows:
- You win, as a survivor, if you make it to the endgame. By virtue of your anonymous voting power, you will automatically win in a situation where there are only 2 other players (not including yourself) or less remaining, town or scum.
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For the record:
##Unvote: Alex
##Vote: Cid
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See why I was so dead set on a third party, Alex? ;\
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Dammit I was hoping Delta was the third party. :(
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well anyway
Laggy rules. I love the pictures, I DROWNED IN ICE CREAM, god what a fabulous death especially if it was like almond pistachio ice cream
role setup was hella fun, i love the conditional third party thing, it's cool beans
i feel like all three parties had a decent shot of winning, but that town had some good stuff in their favor
SCUM GAMBIT NOT KILLING THREE TIMES lol
i thought about singing a ridiculous song and then killing msyelf but I figured that that would be too whimsical for SERIOUS MAFIA
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Fucking speechless on the end of this one. I guess thats what you get for leaving it up to Delta. Actually, Delta coulda switched anytime before Kilga unvoted Alex, as the game shouldn't have ended until the legal vote was made. If he'd have been paying attention, he might have pulled out a squeaker.
Loved the setup. Made things interesting.
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He actually pulled an unvote and vote right while I was posting hammer, so I'm inclined to let it slide. But yeah.
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Dammit I was hoping Delta was the third party. :(
Sorry. :(
Also sorry for lynching you, I was dead sure I was wrong about you and shit so many bricks when you flipped scum that I lost about fifteen pounds.
- I'd like to point out that, as stupid and WIFOMy as my Day 1 logic was (why did no one but Cid call me on this?), my four suspects did indeed include the two scum.
- The Day 2 Anonyvote was used (a) to confuse, and (b) because the population had become unbalanced and I no longer had a potential five-player day to work toward. I figured it was worth putting out there just to see how people would react, and they reacted favorably.
- For the curious, the Wolfsbane message was left because I was worried that my WIFOM logic combined with not actually voting Bardiche would get me voted off. Kinda curious that no one asked me why I did this, because I didn't really have a good explanation for continuing it after Rat proposed I looked good for being around when Bard self-hammered.
- Everything from Day 3 on was fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants (thank you for picking Tom over me, by the way). I had originally resigned myself to the task of convincing Alex away from a decision that he had already made (that Cid was town), but Rat dropped the third-party possibility right in my lap and I grabbed at it immediately, because, as unpleasant the prospect of going head-to-head with Alex was, he was likely to be very aggravated at that point, which gave me a small chance.
- The reason for unvoting and revoting on Day 4 was an effort to pin the extra vote on Alex under the guise of needing someone else to vote after him for him to use it. Never came up, though. (Sadly, neither did any chance to use Tom's Day 2 line about being nervous going from L-2 to L-1.)
- I am the luckiest son of a bitch on the face of the planet.
- I nominate Delta for the Most Appropriate Avatar in Mafia History Award.
EDIT: And Mrs. Peacock's death has been avenged.
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Oh Delta, do you see now why I HATE surviving to the very end and being the one to pull the shots? :P
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Look at the first post on page four, and then thank Ciato for killing me, Kilga. I had all three non-town pegged on day 1. If I had lived you were gonna be my night two target. Also, did you think Rat was scum on day 2? That was the best fit for the way you went after Ciato and Sopko.
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I ALMOST FORGOT
Thanks to Laggy for an awesomely fun role, even though I thought I was fucked when Ciato flipped <3
Excal: I paid no attention to Rat whatsoever until his Day 3 roleclaim. >_>
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Okay, this game was a joy to read. I loved the setup, and it was incredibly interesting to see the twists Laggy pulled on it (also, when I got updated on what was going on by Excal, I snickered. This setup is so very Laggytastic).
Highlights:
- Alex being on the ball FOR ONCE. He actually tried to adapt his style a bit and it worked at catching scum. Ironically, his biggest blunder was leaving Delta alive (since Delta's lacking logic and comprehension skills led town to lose the game ultimately), which is a testament to what happens when you leave incompetent townies alive. Any player who was able to realize that the main thing was Alex vs. Kilga instead of voting for El Cid on THE VERY LAST MINUTE (what was with that vote? I -cannot- understand). On the other hand, this game also highlighted Alex's main failing: treating the game as simple arithmetics and not accounting for insanity enough. He figured the entire setup and had the game in the bag because of it, but he just got frustrated because it was different from what he expected it to be. You said the TP was broken, but I can't see how the TP would -ever- win if he wasn't BP, scum would have too easy a time gunning him down. You honestly had the superior argument, you had the better logic. Town would have won if the decision didn't hang in delta's shoulder, because the setup was honestly designed to go "once scum is down, the third-party will blow up outside of extreme incompetence clause". You had Kilga by the throat. Too bad you had to count on delta. Also, you didn't need to blow up at Kilga using the fact you hunted scum against you. It's just part of the game, and, at that point, scum would use that same card. Scum/TP have to lie through their teeth, right? And use any logic-twisting they can to win, right? You should have been able to deflect that logically and fairly easily (although, by that point, you didn't even need to sans delta. But them's the breaks). Honestly, I know you will moan about this setup being bad for you, but it took this kind of arrangement to make your playstyle not fall flat in its face. You were town MVP regardless.
- NINJA EDIT HIGHLIGHT: Alex/delta yaoi. I laughed so hard.
- Scum blowing up like it did.
- The EXCAL LOEVS ME NO ME NO ME trainwreck. That was hilarious, and, in the end, Excal loevs Rat. >_>
- The final day. Kilga drowning into "I know you are but what am I" was funny, and he would've rightfully lost with that defense if things ended up differently player-wise. >_>
EDIT: I also motion for all Mafia games to have the succinctness clause from now on. It fastens the pacing of the game soooooooooooo much, and it makes everything so much easier to follow.
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Fun note: I got IMed from -three- different people convinced that Alex was not town because he's acting like a psycho. <_< I didn't really keep up with the topic since... oh, a little bit after my last post, so I had no idea really.
I was hoping succinct Mafia would be a little less time-demanding but I apparently I overestimate people. <_<
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<3 Laggy.
This game was indeed fun to watch.
I also think games need to have a succinct rule to which long posts are the extreme exception rather than the norm. I thought about signing up for this one, but then I remembered that two language classes plus English major trying to write something short and non-rambly = LOL NO. >_>
(And yes, Andrew was right, I really was flailing and going "OMG WTF" at him when I was reading Day 3/4's proceedings. XD)
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I also think games need to have a succinct rule to which long posts are the extreme exception rather than the norm.
This. Very much this. I think experimenting there was a success in making better pacing of the game if nothing else.
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I read this game in big chunks, and it was interesting to watch Alex's "THIS ISN'T HAPPENING" scenario come to pass. Seemed really wacky at the end.
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Fun note: I got IMed from -three- different people convinced that Alex was not town because he's acting like a psycho. <_<
This. Very much this. I was virtually convinced myself that Alex was the third party after Ciato said there weren't any more scum because he was so dead set on grouping people as possible scum and basically looked like he was trying to get the useful roles eliminated. Especially when Rat brought up the third party possibility and he basically threw it out the window with no reason but a vaguely described thought that a third party would be more unbalanced in 11 people than three scum(at least that's how I read it.). I still don't understand that argument. Would you care to elaborate a bit further? You were obviously annoyed while the game was going on, so maybe there's something you just didn't feel like going over that you wouldn't mind throwing out there now?
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I was totally convinced Alex was Third Party. I couldn't figure out why he was so violently opposed to the idea of Third Party existing otherwise. <_< Though I suppose it could just be an attempt to get everyone to dismiss him as a lynch candidate towards the end, which was needed for town victory. If you meant all that, man, that's some pretty serious logic blindness. Three nokills? Seriously? Nice scumhunting though, regardless.
Succinct mafia > normal mafia. For reals. I might actually play it more than once every six months.
Largely ninja'd by Yak.
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Alright, I'm of two minds about this game.
The first is I'm amused by it. I mean, Day 1 was standard Mafia, Day 2 was the hilarity of watching people try and figure out who I copped, and watching pretty much everyone discount Tom and Rat, who had it right. But when Day 3 hit, it was just a whole lot of trainwrecky goodness. I mean, watching everyone flounder about trying to figure out who the third scum was was just laughably bad. Especially when Alex said he was sure I investigated him or Ciato. I mean, I can kinda see where he got the idea I might have gone after him, though even Cid had better proof for his claim (Sorry, Cid. I didn't investigate you, I can just read your alignment like a book), but it's his claim that I investigated Ciato that really blew me out of the water. I mean, the same Ciato where the only real mention I make of her on Day 1 is that I'm pretty certain she's scum? The one who would have read Town to me thanks to her power, which had been revealed by that point? I'm still not sure where he got that one from. But, regardless, just the fact that there was a 50% chance of winning on Day 3, and then it was almost certain we'd win on Day 5, highlighted by the ridiculous, absurd, and pathetic fate meted out to poor Rat on Day 4. This game was just insane and fun to watch.
The other emotion I have is one of supreme frustration, and a bit of anger. And yeah, I'm gonna get a bit egotistical myself going into this bit, but I think I'm due.
Now, let's get into the background and justification before I get into the real rant.
First off, in the last few months, I tend to be in one of two modes for Mafia. I'm either stumbling about, trying to figure out what's up, or I've had an epiphany and know at least 75% of the non-towns. The post-epiphany state is always, ALWAYS, followed by being night killed. I'm not sure why this is, but it is, and it's really bloody frustrating. I usually don't mention this though, because I don't usually get my thoughts and realisations out before I die, and it'd just look like saying I knew it all after the fact, which is really just classless. But this time, this time I not only had the epiphany on Day 1, but I also have a record posted in the topic before I died. Take notes, because it'll be the foundation of my being an arrogant little prick soon enough.
So, I mentioned the first post of Page 4 before. Let's link to it now, shall we?
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31505#msg31505 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31505#msg31505)
There you'll see Delta, Rat, Ciato, Kilga, and Bard all get talked about. Delta gets written off as mostly town, Rat, I was breadcrumbing him for all the good it did in the end. The other three? The two scum and Kilga. Also note, I call Kilga on the exact same thing he said only Cid noted (and I was in the scuffle about that right after he said it to, if it weren't for the fact Bard already had a vote on him, it was you I was gonna vote for, Kilga), AND I vote for Bard before it's popular for a different reason than Alex, and I stay constant for the rest of the day while Alex flip flops over to the pretty clearly Town El Cid. Or, at least, pretty clearly town if you're any damn good at reading people like any Mafia God ought to be able to.
I'm also gonna pull out a conversation I had with Cyril, since he was pestering me for thoughts while I was trying to write that post. This is all time stamped, starting with the AM hours on Wenesday.
Cyril Shinsei (0:59:30): What does your gut tell you right now, in any case? I'm curious.
Excaliburned (1:00:09): It doesn't.
Excaliburned (1:00:56): El Cid and Alex feel legit, Rat probably would too, but to a lesser extent, if I didn't have that cop reading, but that's it.
Excaliburned (1:01:16): Delta... feels too idiotic to be faking, but there's a nagging voice that says he may be trying to pull a fast one.
Excaliburned (1:01:29): And... one of Kilga/Bard/Ciato is scum.
Excaliburned (1:01:35): Maybe more.
Cyril Shinsei (1:01:55): *nod*
Excaliburned (1:02:56): And Strago is completely off my radar. That's bad, but unavoidable. One other person is as well... right, Tom. Ah well, gotta focus somewhere, and those two can wait.
Cyril Shinsei (1:03:16): ...wha
Cyril Shinsei (1:03:18): Strago isn't even playing...
Excaliburned (1:03:31): Sopko. >_>
Cyril Shinsei (1:03:35): >_>;;;;
Excaliburned (1:03:42): Similar names, man.
Cyril Shinsei (1:03:47): Sure, sure
Excaliburned (1:03:54): And my mind is trying to coalesce other stuff at present.
Cyril Shinsei (1:03:57): You have a night investigation target in mind yet, or is that definitely waiting till deadline?
Excaliburned (1:04:15): Waiting for now. I want to see how things shake out and how the flip goes.
Excaliburned (3:11:32): At least Kilga's bad logic makes a certain kind of sense.
Excaliburned (3:12:22): I mean, all the scum are concentrated amongst four people, except it's really five if you count me, because of this highly sketchy litmus test I devised.
Excaliburned (3:12:44): I mean, if you accept his premise, then it is a good deductive argument.
Excaliburned (3:12:49): And he's holding to it.
Excaliburned (3:12:59): It's all bunk of course, but the sense is there.
Cyril Shinsei (10:32:39): there is a lot of discussion going on right now on the Cid train.
Excaliburned (10:33:07): I noticed. And am trying to rethink whether I might have been wrong about him. But don't think I am.
Cyril Shinsei (10:34:11): In what regard?
Excaliburned (10:36:07): El Cid? Dunno exactly what it is. But he's just tossing off townie vibes.
Excaliburned (12:17:50): And it's a 4-3 vote now.
Excaliburned (12:18:13): Also, investigate Ciato
Cyril Shinsei (12:18:44): It's actually 4-3...
Cyril Shinsei (12:18:56): Soppy, Rat, Tom and Kilga on El Cid, while Bard has you, Alex, and Ciato.
Cyril Shinsei (17:36:51): Congrats
Cyril Shinsei (17:37:05): Once again, you find yourself the beloved target of a Night 1 nightkill
Excaliburned (17:39:05): Did they figure out I was the cop?
Cyril Shinsei (17:39:24): The person who did deduced you were, yes. Surprisingly not from your breadcrumb.
Excaliburned (17:39:45): Ooo, how did he figure it out?
Cyril Shinsei (17:39:52): In fact she suspected it from your general behavior and had a feeling you would investigate her!
Cyril Shinsei (17:39:54): *HINT HINT*
Excaliburned (17:40:07): So the result was non town then
Cyril Shinsei (17:40:14): The result was indeed
Cyril Shinsei (17:40:20): Ironically
Cyril Shinsei (17:40:28): You were an insane cop
Excaliburned (17:40:31): I assume any doccing is already tragically misplaced.
Excaliburned (17:40:35): ...
Cyril Shinsei (17:40:37): Doc went on her.
Excaliburned (17:40:47): Why do our docs always target scum?
Cyril Shinsei (17:40:58): Oh, wait, sorry, the result is town, because she gave up godfather protection killing you
Cyril Shinsei (17:41:06): Which means you'd get scum normally, so you'd get town!
Cyril Shinsei (17:41:12): Not that this matters, anymore
Cyril Shinsei (17:41:18): Rat just IMed me screaming
Excaliburned (17:41:22): Ah well, if she came up town, I was going to decide I was either sane or insane, figure I had caught the other scum, and roleclaim.
Cyril Shinsei (17:41:27): "NOW EVERYONE WILL THINK EXCAL BREADCRUMBED ME AS SCUM"
Excaliburned (17:41:34): Because I did.
Cyril Shinsei (17:41:37): Yep.
Excaliburned (17:41:54): Pity. If Ciato hadn't of killed me, I'd have broken the game open.
So, yeah. I had Ciato, and either Kilga or Soppy (Soppy wasn't looking good to me, at all) would have been my target for night 2, and that answer would have led me to Kilga.
So, props to Ciato. She played a very vital part in Kilga winning. She killed me. Props to Kilga, while you were dropping tells, only two people noticed, one forgot, the other got killed. And, more importantly, the way you BSed as hard as you could on Day 5, and the way you just forced the choice on Tom on Day 3 (which was beautifully done and I'm surprised no one noticed) and then rammed Rat's death through before anyone could begin to think about his guilt. Yeah, you got lucky, but you fucking earned that victory, so I'm pretty ok with that.
Hell, while I'm pissed that town lost, it's not like I'm that upset. After all, as far as I'm concerned, I also won. I called all three non-towns on Day 1, I earned the only scum kill in the game and was head and shoulders above any other candidate for it.
Nah, that's not what I'm pissed about. What I'm mostly angry about is having to sit on the sidelines, watching not just town flounder about like a chicken with its head cut off and slowly killing itself. Nah, the really grating thing was watching Alex and his monstrous ego leading town into a three day clusterfuck of epic proportions.
I mean, you've got his This game should be over speech and his I'm 2 for 2 proclaimation at the start of day 3. And then later on you've got the bastard making it sound like the only reason town nailed scum is because of him. This is especially grand as it comes among all kinds of rants that the game is three kinds of fucked up. Watching him shut down Rat everytime the guy figures out a bit of the setup, and reading the rants about how fucking impossible it'll be to find a third party despite the fact that he almost did it on Day 3, and probably would have if he had just got over himself and his knowledge of the Holy Writ of How Mafia MUST Be and noticed the hustle Kilga played on him. Hell, he did do it on Day 5. Except that, y'know, we got it from the mouth of a Mafia God that it's impossible to do, so Day 5 actually never happened at all. Yeah.
See, I was talking with Rat recently, and I said to him what I thought, that a Town loss would be due to Alex screwing up. And he told me that wasn't fair, and that the cause was a lot more complex than that. Now, I've given that a bit of thought, and I still think I'm right. See, let's take a look at Alex. When we started, he WAS all that and a bag of chips. After all, none of the rest of us knew how to play. And he's very good when he's in his element. He's logical, reasoned, and makes devastating arguments. And people tend to listen to him, maybe because he makes good points, maybe because he's acknowledged as being good at the game. But people also don't seem to realise his flaws. And those are fucking huge. The fact is, his ego is bigger than he is, and he isn't the best mafia player here anymore. Even bigger, he's only worth anything when he's in his happy place. The moment he's outside of that, he's a threat as he shuts down every possibility but the one his Holy Writ says has to be, and heaven help you if you dare to disagree, because he'll turn that silver tongue of his to shutting down any chance of discovering just what the hell is going on. And he'll try and railroad things towards how he thinks they should be, winning the game be damned.
But hey, maybe I'm being a little harsh. I mean, despite his little tantrum in day 5, he was still 2 for 2. Wait... no, 2 for 3. But hey, it's not like there's anyone who did better, right?
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Arglefuck. Would've mocked you for third-party theories if I'd had the time, Kilga. >.< Was with family all today.
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I don't always agree with Alex's methods either, but at least he catches scum before he dies instead of after. <_< Honestly, little is more annoying than the whining of a sore loser, and that's what most of that post comes off as.
Just relax, man. It's just a game.
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When he does. The main issue here is the fact that he seems to think he's the only one who can play the game, and that it has to be played his way. He's not the only one who can, and he's honestly blinding himself with his own beliefs.
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Look at it this way, Excal: maybe take scum NKing you night one as a sign that you're too good at the game to stay alive? >.>
For my part, I think I failed it up as a townie only slightly less than I usually do. Despite the day one debacle, at least I was right about Ciato. I'm usually not right at all, barring it being part of some crazy gambit a la Alex in Clue.
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Man, I wasn't going to post anything here, just quietly congratulate Kilga and go on my way. But that is really just unwarranted from Excal there.
Tell me exactly how we, me or town as a whole, could have played the game better and won this. Tell me exactly what logic I am missing that would let us reliably find a third party like this in a way better than the one I used. Tell me what strategy we could have employed for the last few days that would have worked out better than knocking off Rat, Sopko and Tom, the top three suspects as generally agreed upon by not just me but the entire living town. All I'm seeing here that possibly fits that is "You should have read Kilga and known something was up with him more than Rat or Sopko or Tom!" and I'm not sure how that can be applied as anything but a lucky read.
I'm not the best player here and my methods aren't the only ones. However, my methods work, I'm constantly improving them, and I've yet to see a different and better set be clearly articulated by anyone, despite my constantly asking for it. You say I'm blinding myself, I say "To what? Show me, I want to learn and improve." And there's never an answer.
At the beginning of this game the mood was "Oh, awesome, Alex's improving his style, he didn't stick to lynching Delta and Cid." Now at the end of the game I'm being told we should have lynched Delta after all. So what, we just give up and policy lynch all stupid townies at the beginning of the game, because maybe there will be a no-kill third party that will screw with everyone's heads even if we lynch the scum team in a perfect shutout?
I don't think I screwed up this game at all, I think I played it the best I possibly could individually, and I think most of town did the same. We came very, very close to winning. Much closer than we would have under any other circumstances I can imagine, aside from randomly lynching Kilga instead of Tom. What if we hadn't lynched the scum, what if we'd mislynched on Excal's insane cop investigation, etc etc.
Our performance still didn't lead us to an actual win, and that frustrates me immensely. Seeing people say "Oh this game was great!" is even more frustrating; I'm sure it was fun to watch, but it was not fun to play towards the end because I know town showed a great deal of skill and still wound up losing. The setup was such that either skill did not make any difference in who won, or town needed even more skill than we displayed to win, which I think is honestly pretty unreasonable. We, not just I, played damn well by any standards. I'm pretty happy with that.
tldr - How exactly were we supposed to come closer to catching a third party like this in a reliable fashion? I say it's impossible, if you say it's not, tell me how.
Editing in a Mafia game topic - It's just like the Jester problem. In any game, no matter how blatantly scummy someone acts, you can always second guess yourself with "But they could be a jester! Don't lynch them!" What can you do about this other than decide jesters aren't probable in a game and ignore the possibility of their existence?
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For a social game, we sure are being rather keen on worsening social ties. C'mon, people, what's going on here?
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I liked this game. Kinda. But it was frustrating to me for a different reason, namely that what insights I did have actually kicked me in the face when I revealed them. (That I actually got them right is probably the reason I liked the game. And, well. Arguing is fun! Even if I was on the wrong end a lot.)
Excal investigated me and was insane? Yes! I mention this (am forced to do so!) and people all turn to stare angrily at me? Yes!
Third Party? Yes! I mention this and it gives Kilga an easy out to get Alex lynched? Yes! Although I knew this, there was no rational way to conclude which of Alex and Kilga it was (only that, after the fact, it seemed more likely that Kilga would recklessly use his anonyvote than Alex. But what the hey.) Hence why I wanted to lynch them both. It didn't take. Ah well.
The problem with Alex this game was that he was unwilling to consider possibilities that deviated from a standard game, the sheer DISBELIEF of an insane cop was probably the most annoying to me, for obvious reasons. Perhaps this is born out of ego, I don't know, but it lead him to both come off as very arrogant. I don't know if that actually raised Delta's heckles or not and I can't say if it actually lead straight to defeat- I don't think so. I don't think Alex can really be blamed for the entire game, because so many dumb things happened that could've gone differently. And, well. 2 for 2.
I've got to say that I agree Kilga would've been very difficult to find- even if you realise there's a third party (I can figure out everything but scum!), it's impossible to tell who it actually is because *any of them* could have an incentive to play as townie as possible. I had a conversation with Laggy about this, he said that if a third party is so hard to find, why can't scum just play as if they were like that? After all, only one needs to be alive at the end to win.
I can only answer that scum have the ability to increase their odds of winning by working together (but if they don't pull it off, it makes them look worse), and that they have to work harder to pretend they don't know what they know. If you boil Mafia down to raw theory, then it is a statistical crapshoot and not really much fun- it's the human element that mixes it up. A third party isn't as hindered by, well, psychology as the scum.
As for the setup in general? I think scum were the biggest losers from the start, actually. Two investigative roles and a doctor on the town side versus a crippled roleblocker and godfather, with an un-NKable third party thrown into the mix? It makes for some sad criminals, since even if Bard and Ciato had been more on the ball...
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Very much so. I can't see a way for the third party to lose in this setup barring town lynching them completely at random.
My attitude about things like that stems from practicality, and I don't see how it was a problem or bad in any way. Sure - there could be an insane cop and a third party. I was in fact quite convinced Kilga was right at the end. But so what? How can you alter your play to deal with the possibility of a non-standard game, one that includes entire factions that you have absolutely no information about? Not even the certainty, just the possibility?
You can't, at least not without taking shots in the dark that cripple your chances if you're wrong and everything is standard after all. The best you can do is go for the most likely scenario. Seeing as how this was a small game, moderated by someone I thought had a good head for theory and vetted by someone else I thought had a good head for theory, and with its own special condition (succintness), I thought it was incredibly unlikely that there would be such gamebreaking nonstandard roles. The most I could do was to play to the most likely situation, which for me was that Kilga needed rope and I needed to do whatever it took to get him rope'd. Be he scum or be he third party or whatever.
And hey - I was right about that, too.
The difference in finding scum and finding third parties is that they have different win conditions. You know scum's win condition - kill all town before they lynch you. You know they have to play toward that goal, or they will statistically lose to random lynches from the majority. (no, scum CANNOT ignore each other and play completely as if they are not scum, and if they can your setup's broken.) You know what you need to do to them - lynch them for sure, or possibly vig kill them barring things that make them immune to such. That's what the game's all about, it forms the entire basis for playing Mafia rather than Hatbotting lynches.
Third parties? You don't know what their win condition is. You don't know what is beneficial to them or harmful to them. You don't know what type of play might be beneficial to them. You don't know what you should do to them (politician, jester, etc). On the other hand, the third party knows everything about their own role, as well as how town and scum will play, AND knows that a third party exists.
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How would you handle third parties, then, Alex? Barring the one from Smash Bros Mafia, in a regular Mafia setting, what'd you change to make 3rd Parties have less of a chance?
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Run it as an open setup. Then at least you know they exist and what to watch out for.
Addendum: Third parties aren't born equal and are hard to balance by definition. I wouldn't mind seeing some discussion on what, exactly, is appropriate- I know SK's feature predominantly in open setups around mafiascum, and do seem to get caught frequently. Any thoughts?
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I'm weighing in for a moment and saying that Kilga's role, in this game, was about as blatantly anti-town and pro-scum as you could get without actually being scum. Scum accelerates his victory, and both town and scum detriment it by being around. He might as well HAVE been disconnected scum for all purposes and the game would not have changed at all (in fact, it would make him better!). There's no third-party vagueness here that you're saying makes it so utterly impossible, in the end the case on him was for scummy behavior as it would have been anyway. So I'm not seeing the psychology-aspect which makes him impossible to find, no more so than a lone scum.
The only crux was the lack of NKing throwing a wrench into the mix, but that was clarified when I stated scum could no-kill (and frankly I'm surprised I had to clarify such a thing, everyone seemed to take it as granted as far as a possibility goes anyway).
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Basically, as long as the Third Party is forced into a distinctive, effective alignment (usually anti-town), I tend to think they are okay. Third parties with odd tricks (Politicians, etc) are hard to track because they can play picture perfect as townies, just doing some other things. Third parties that have to sink town (and scum, really) seem like the fair ones because, for all that they have the bonus of being alone, they also have to beat both factions.
Ninja Edit: I'm inclined to agree with Laggy here. Admittedly, I didn't follow the early game closely, but towards the end game... well. Near as I can tell, you all DID have him pegged. He was a perfectly viable candidate. I saw a couple statements along the lines of "Well, Kilga, I barely notice him" which... tends to feel like a tell to me. So, I suppose this is what is making the problem so hard for me to buy. The ultimate game loss here was not a factor of Kilga being unfindable (again, he was being pegged as scum!), it was the failure to follow through with a plan that killed a good chunk of town.
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I'm boggling at the amount of "I was sure Alex must have been the Third Party!" thoughts here. I was very certain it was Kilga as soon as he started pressing the Third Party point. He was basically trying to sell the idea that Alex was what he himself really was, and I picked up on that pretty quickly. Also Alex never seemed like anything but Town here, for me(past Day 1 where everyone is up in the air, of course).
On another note, I do very very much like the Succinct Rule and motion that it be in effect for all following Mafia games here. Made the game very entertaining, and easy, to read and keep up with.
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A survivor that needs to have people killed off until there's only a small amount regardless of what affiliation they are isn't a survivor, it's an serial killer with a lax win condition. Survivor role is already bizarrely frowned upon here, misrepresenting other roles as them is not helping the situation.
A 'normal' survivor town and survivor would have won when Ciato was killed. To be fair there is no rule saying that every rolename has to match up to the 'normal' use of the name. But the least you could do is come up with something different instead of overloading a commonly used term. To be further fair I can't personally come up with a one-word description of the role (mostly because it doesn't seem to have any sort of aim: it wants to have most people killed off but not necessarily everyone = uhhhh...) but I have no imagination anyway so...
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I dunno, I'm not so convinced the succinct thing actually accomplished much. While things were indeed pretty easy to follow, everyone kicked "LURKER KILL MAIM DEVOUR YE MUST POST" into ludicrous overdrive and more than one player looked pretty stressed due to it.
Then again, Mafia in general always looks needlessly stressful and cutthroat. I mean, it's a social game, half the players having such a Spike attitude about it (and if you know the term, you know who you are) is just... silly.
The trainwreck factor was pretty high though, entertaining to read.
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Also agreeing with Twil here. A "survivor" should have won the game(alongside Town) when Ciato was lynched, as Town has no reason to lynch more people when the Scum died and the nightkills stopped. Kilga wasn't a survivor, he was a serial killer with Super Anon Hammer instead of the standard Night Kill.
Yeah, this is semantics and just a Naming Arguement, but it's still something that I think needs to be said(or emphasized, as Twil said it first.)
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Am I the only one that found the Succinct rule to be mildly annoying because you couldn't properly respond to everyone? >> When you have to defend yourself, it sucks if you have to be concise. Or want to attack someone, of course.
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I must be the only person here that doesn't like reading games they're not a part of. You guys are going to shame me into doing it at this rate. D:
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How would I balance third parties? I wouldn't, I think they're inherently unbalanceable in games with <20 people or so unless there's an open setup and/or heavy duty role mechanics in play. Certainly not in 11 people. I would not ever use one in this small a game without a role heavy tag applied.
Kilga's role was not thought out well at all. How exactly did he even "win" in the end? It's 2 votes vs 2 votes, and unlike scum in that situation, he does not have a nightkill in the event of a theoretical no lynch. He didn't know who scum were and they didn't know who he was, so he couldn't be tied to them. The lack of NKs causes further confusion, which always hurts town. Sure, as it turns out in hindsight once you know the setup, he's a disconnected scum (which by the way is an insanely powerful scum role due to the lack of connections, check out what happened in Brawl, also note Kilga's comments on 8/3 being not exactly balanced), but the players in the game had no way to know that while we were playing! For all we knew, we could have been facing a real SK who could pop out with a night kill at any time. Or something with delayed mechanics. Or something that stored up multiple anonymous votes via some condition, I strongly considered this. Or a scum pulling a no kill gambit. Or this or that or the other thing. He's impossible to find because we don't know if we're looking for pro-scum behavior or not.
So we default to looking for pro-scum behavior. Which is what I said in the game. And am now being told alternately that "Oh KIlga wasn't too hard to find, just look for scummy stuff" and "You said to look for scummy stuff and that means you're blinding yourself to other possibilities!"
I really don't get it.
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Talking with QR about the "This Is Not Worth Considering" thing, I feel like I should post my thoughts on it here.
On Third Parties: Okay, I have a suggestion. how about we, as townies, stop thinking about Scum and Third Party as if they were seperate things and just consider Town and Not-Town? I'm really with Alex on the "non-SK third parties are not worth thinking about" because he's right, you can't plan for them. "well what about the possibility of a third party survivor?" What about it? They don't kill people on thier own, they don't have teammates to draw connections to/from, and generally there's nothing you can do to plan for them or hunt them down specifically. So...what do you do about them? Nothing, you assume there isn't one and go with looking for something you CAN hunt down, like scum or an SK. Maybe I'm having a lack of imagination here, but I certainly can't think of any ways to specifically look for roles like Kilgas aside from looking for Generic Scumtells. Which means you may as well call him Scum and not bother with the "what about a Third Party?" debates at all.
On Sanities: Okay, this is where I slide away from Alex's viewpoint. Alex, this is the DL. Games here are a bit role happy as a rule and we have seen alot of odd sanities. They might be So Rare As To Not Be Worth Consideration in other forums, but not this one, man. You need to underdstand the environment you're playing in and adapt to it a bit more. Sanities are perfectly valid things to consider here, and while yeah, that does make for alot of potential WIFOM, it's still better then not thinking about it at all.
Now as for another note(also about Alex. I'm talking about him so much you'd think this was a Mafia Game post or something):
The adapting style was very much noted in the beginning and was an excellent change of pace. You shied away from lynching Delta and Cid and it proved to be a good move. Keep adapting in that direction and I think things will go alot more smoothly.
Just, dude, the "I Hate This Game And Everyone In It" attitude near the end of the game there was...uh...yeah, bad. You being one of the big proponents of "Don't Take This Personally It Is A Game", I have to turn that back on you and say not to take setups you disagree with as personal attacks. If other people need to not get worked up over the social stuff, you need to not get worked up over the mechanical stuff. If you see something you think is imbalanced, like in this game, just play through it and explain why you think it was bad in the aftergame discussion. Maybe mention it in the topic, but don't get all THE WORLD IS OVER about it like you did this time, alright? I do understand the frustration, but reacting to it like that is only going to cause people to NOT listen to you out of frustration with *you*.
And on THAT note:
Excal. Chill out. Checking in from Team Passive Agressive Pansy myself(are we still allowed to use those terms?), I do tend to agree with some of your points, which I think I've mentioned which ones I do and don't agree with above. But the tone you presented them in? The tone made me want to completely disagree with you on sheer kneejerk against that kind of attitude. Like I just said, I get frustration, but dude, that was a little much there.
And now for a random note to:
Kilga: Dude, I love reading other mafia games but usually can't because of the sheer "Wall Of Words, 20th Level Caster" thing. That's why I, as a spectator, liked this game so much. I highly recommend mafia spectating to those who don't feel like playing, especially if we'll be keeping to the Succinct Mafia rule from now on.
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For Geass Mafia, just askin' - would you folk prefer I add a succinct clause to it? Would that inspire you to join it?
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Eh, true enough.
Sanities are certainly worth considering, and not rare at all. Just in this case... really, why did it matter? Cop was dead with one completely blind night zero investigation and no very clear breadcrumb about it. In the lack of any evidence, why float theories like that?
Mechanics hit me hard partially because I'm good friends with Laggy and didn't want to believe he'd pull something like this until it became crystal clear he had, and partially because I did put a lot of work into the start of the game and did well, and knew I did, and honestly felt robbed as it slipped away. Yeah, we still made it close, but town shouldn't have to be at the mercy of Delta in some weird LYLO when we catch the scum on day 1 and 2. I felt like I had been tricked into unadvertised role madness and slapped in the face because good play didn't matter for the win. Actually I still feel that way, and since it's aftergame, it probably bears saying clearly now (as opposed to being overblown for effect in order to make people lynch Kilga instead of me): this setup was complete BS to play in.
Call me a sore loser if you want, I guess, but... I know we didn't lose, I know town as a whole deserved to win that, and I'm happy with how we played. I don't even care about the technicality of 'losing' due to the weirdness of Kilga's role, anyway. The real disappointment to me is that setups keep being made where skill is devalued and winning requires playing totally random guessing games about the role setup, and the players aren't warned of this beforehand. I thought we'd gotten past that. Running stuff like this is only going to hurt DL Mafia in the future.
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winning requires playing totally random guessing games about the role setup
Town did damn well right up until the point where people decided it was a great idea to throw scumhunting out the window and instead play purely metagame.
I agree with just about all of the aftergame comments in this thread; there's a lot to be learned here.
Word-limit seems to be super-popular, so I'll include that in with Sci-Fi if it will entice more people to join. Please join! I've had the setup checked by about 5 or 6 people from MafiaScum, it'll be good!
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Laggy is the worst mod evar. Let me stay in chat after death so we could talk about gelato and politics.
In fact scumchat was mostly just me and Laggy talking about politics. <_<
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Muppy sez: Mmm...gelato...
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Gelato doesn't exist in Oklahoma! It is sad.