The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Jo'ou Ranbu on September 27, 2008, 04:38:56 AM
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Godlike
Elc (AtLC) vs Ness (EB)
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3)
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs)
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Rolf Landale (PS2)
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7)
Menardi (GS) vs Maxim (Lufia 2)
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1)
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB)
Middle
Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3)
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2)
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX)
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9)
Light
Imoen (BGs) vs Chelsea Torn (ToD)
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1)
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC)
Tai Ho (Suikos) vs Chat (ToE)
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Elc (AtLC) vs Ness (EB) - This match can bite me.
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3) - 3-2s, 3HKOs. The ID isn't turn one, and Deis has massive MDef anyway. (By the way, Deis1)
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Rolf Landale (PS2) - Status, goes first.
Geshp (ShF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7) - Sexy staff beatings.
Dryst (Brig) vs. Berserk (WA1) - Um, Berserk goes first and may well OHKO, 2HKOs at worst. Dryst... 3HKOs at best. >_>
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB) - Power overwhelming.
Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3) - MP busting. The end.
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2) - Red Wizard is -so bad-.
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX) - Ugh, Doom of all things wins this fight. Go away, Zidane.
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP) - Ahahahahaha Olan.
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC) - Ahahahahaha Sue.
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Godlike
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3)- ID attached to a physical is good enough for me here.
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs)- Think Brahms scores a 2HKO here. Up for debate on this one.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Rolf Landale (PS2)- Not sure. Need to check Gilgy's last form out.
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7)- Yuffie's not tooooooo far from a 2HKO, but not especially close either.
Menardi (GS) vs Maxim (Lufia 2)- Menardi is as bad in Heavy as she was in Middle. Which is to say she fears anyone who blocks ID or has a shred of offense.
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1)- 2HKO with Curse, I think.
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB)- Decent fight but the speed difference really sinks Cecil in every form that I've seen, along with the holy resist.
Middle
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2)- DoS RW goes first and should hit with something in time.
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX)- Doom/Thievery's more than enough for me here.
Light
Imoen (BGs) vs Chelsea Torn (ToD)- It's Chelsea.
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1)- Stop is about the worst nonfatal status you can hit a VP PC with. Suo needs for Olan to miss Galaxy stop twice in a row. Eh. And his PWS isn't even fatal in one shot.
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC)- Guile has strong techs if nothing else. Sue is Sue.
Tai Ho (Suikos) vs Chat (ToE)- Fuck Eternal Hammer.
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Elc (AtLC) vs Ness (EB): Mind Buster.
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3): Guess he gets the ID off? I'll hold off on voting till people with more definitive analysis come along. Deis 1 might pull it off, I guess. But I think Deis 2 is better overall because of Mdef/Healing?
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs): I... think? Should 2HKO with magic or something without being OHKOd or 2HKOd barring Bloody Curse?
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7): One-rounding. This would apply either way but Geshp is a ShF2 boss not named Zeon.
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1): Uh... not sure on Brig elements so I'll wait a second. Almost definitely Beserk though.
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB): Better slugger.
Middle
Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3): BIG PHYSICAL DAMAGE VS. POCO. I guess. Like I ever used Peppita enough.
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2): Status, I think.
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX): Uh... Sleep or Doom. Either should work.
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9): Can't vote, but GOOOOO JILL! Laguz Guard hype or something.
Light: Just Say No.
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1):
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC)
Tai Ho (Suikos) vs Chat (ToE)
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Did Berserk wall fire and darkness?
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Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3): BIG PHYSICAL DAMAGE VS. POCO. I guess. Like I ever used Peppita enough.
Peppita's nooooooot really big on damage unless you allow Fairy Friend's unreliable combo hit fully. Also, uh Mind Buster. Peppita dies if she reaches 0 MP and her MP is averagish. How does she circumvent that unless you don't allow her to be MP killed?
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Godlike
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3): Asgard's ID is magical, Super.
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7): Hahaha.
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1): BERSERK SMASH. Honestly, I think even WA1o may win this (just needs to survive two Curses?). ACF just makes it less than close.
Middle
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2): FF1 status sucks.
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX): Doom I guess. Wish I could find Deathproof legal.
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9): Beorcguard hype~ Probably doesn't even need it? Fera's not too impressive.
Light
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1): Olan sucks. Suo wins this even if he never gets a PWS off. Even if you disagree, Olan WILL miss Galaxy Stop twice in a row during this fight, more than once. Remember that GS lowers Olan's overall efficiency, so if he's using it to try to stop PWSs, he's EVEN WORSE at slugging than usual.
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC): oh god
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"Peppita's nooooooot really big on damage unless you allow Fairy Friend's unreliable combo hit fully. "
Nope. Faerie Friend is eight hit average. This still outdoes everyone else in damage. Adding Power Dance to boost it just makes it obscene. Point is if I don't allow Peppita's "unreliable" combo I don't allow anyone's combo to hit fully. Scatter Beam always getting ten hits? Mirror Slice always getting ten (even less likely)? Divine Wrath getting eighteen? LOL Max Shockwave always getting 7? No. Peppita has no more nor less unreliable combos than anyone else. Apart from the obscenity that is Faerie Friend/Dream Hammer/Short O + Increase HP damage Peppita's overall damage values are just fine thanks to Power Dance > offensive move combos. Power Dance changes things a lot. Only if one ignores Power Dance is Peppita not big on damage out with Faerie Friend/Dream Hammer.
Maria/Sophia/Adray/Nel/Peppita getting MP killed by anything is just a joke. Cliff/Roger sure but beyond that? No.
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Godlike
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3): I have a pretty decent amount of respect for Wide Barrier's hitrate, but Deis mocks ID. BoltX/Shed, repeat ad nauseum.
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs): Uh. This is surprisingly even. Think I'll give it to the newcomer.
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7): Yuffie's just roadkill here. Better luck next time, kiddo.
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB): Better at the same game, and Cecil's healing isn't good enough to keep him afloat.
Middle
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2): Meh.
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9): No vote, but I cannot help but think of Meeple upon seeing Jill's art. It is Pokemon versus Meeple. Whoever wins, we all lose.
Light
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1): It's a sad day when Suo deserves to win a match.
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Middle
Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3)- Peppita doesn't even *need* damage for this fight. Goes first, nails Poco with status. Can't block them all. Not allowing Poco to block all non ID statuses with a broken non unique item. To me that's tantamount to allowing SO3 character to use their own broken storebought accessory (Tri Emblem - hey it blocks ID! >.>) - or Convert Damage to HP - in the DL. Even if I were so generous in Poco's case Peppita has *ID* Sure Instanto Blast sucks because it's only one hit but Kaboom is multiple hits, chain be chained to double or triple those hits if that's what it takes. It's ID should definitely go through against a PC with no ID resist.
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX) - Deathward for anti Doom hype!? No?
Light
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC)- Reason's in write up >.>
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Godlike
Elc (AtLC) vs Ness (EB)- Elc. Invincible, Mind Buster, and such.
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3)- Well...if Deis does go for Deis 2 in order to resist Death, she loses a ton of damage and durability. Asgard respect gut says he takes it either way to me. Need to look into it more.
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs)- Zenon, I guess. Although...Brahms and his 50% chance of overkill. Hmm...
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Rolf Landale (PS2)- Gilgamesh.
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7)- Geshp. His physical is still more than enough.
Menardi (GS) vs Maxim (Lufia 2)- Menardi, I guess?
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1)- Berserk. Just...so much better.
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB)- Fenril
Middle
Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3)- Peppita. Not buying MP=0 is death for SO 3 PCs unless SO 3 PCs are also allowed to kill DL opponents with that strategy.
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2)- Lexis
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX)- Zidane
Light
Imoen (BGs) vs Chelsea Torn (ToD)- Imoen
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1)- Suo. Yeah, Galaxy Stop is a more in game thing.
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC)- Don't know, will look up later. Sue tends to be underrated, but she still sucks.
Tai Ho (Suikos) vs Chat (ToE)- Tai Ho. Save your Ahahahahahas for Chat, not Sue.
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Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX): Hahaha am I the only one who is thrilled that Zidane is trouncing Kimahri? Doesn't need Doom even, Mini should cripple Kimahri's already sad offense enough for Zidane to outslug with thievery unless you assume that Zidane is simple not stealing through the whole game.
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9): Kneejerk.
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Zidane whoring the entire division with status this season is probably what people are not thrilled about ;p Another FF character making Champ when other more interesting duellers would stand a chance otherwise? >.> *hypes Jude for Champ nonetheless*
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Mini's not really viable here, Kim just builds up to overdrive and smites Zidane with status in that case. Doom works because Zidane can just stall from there, rather than provoking any OD building.
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Guess it depends on Thievery damage respect. Given how I've heard of people maxing out it's damage just because, I tend to give it about as much credit as Zidane's regular physical. I'd like to know what the formula that determines its power is though.
Anyways, Kimahri whoring with E&C bugs me way more than Zidane's status.
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Eh, Soul Blade is basically useless in FFIX (you have to know the vulnerabilities of a given dungeon to know what to equip, the same vulnerability has to be common, enemies have to be durable enough to be worth statusing out...), while E&C has definite applications in FFX (a bit of a novelty by the time you get the Spirit Lance maybe, but Wakka's Rematch got lots of milage certainly), so E&C translating well to the DL doesn't particularly bother me, especially since it has some fairly clearly defined limitation and Kim is really bad if you do something like cast spells or status.
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Kimahri can get enough healing from Lancet to reach Overdrive against all but overwhelming damage (1.5x recharge helps), so Mini really wouldn't work, regardless of Thievery respect (even if you take it at 9999... I'd assume you'd see Dragon Crest and Frog Drop as also 9999, meaning most of the cast hits that and the average is around 9000 <_<). Needs Doom.
But yeah he's just going to walk over this quarter.
Also, seconding CK in general.
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Wait ... *looks up* legal Death immunity? Jude has that doesn't he?
Heh he may just pull it off~ Fairly sure Jude has the overall board respect/support and yeah. I'm going to cry if Peppita loses to Poco of all things but mass Peppita usage/beliefs aside Peppita and Jude are the only Middles I have any real respect for this season >.> Meh well Red Wizard I guess =/ I can see how Peppita could defeat Zidane even but I'll get shot for suggesting why so eh.
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Eh? Jude vs. Zidane? Zidane Mini's, Jude weeps.
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Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3)- Peppita. Not buying MP=0 is death for SO 3 PCs unless SO 3 PCs are also allowed to kill DL opponents with that strategy.
How's it different from SH SP to you? Running out of that is pretty much death as well and it only effects that series more or less.
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As far as I know MP Buster doesn't *always* reduce MP to zero. I'd have given Poco the win if it was that clear cut *and* he went first (not happening) Basically to MP bust Poco has to a) Go first and b) Lower MP to 0 *exactly* Anything else even MP =1 and Peppita just MP regens it back. Magical Dance costs HP to use not MP. On the other hand it's pretty clear that a) Peppita goes first and b) Has Turn 1 statuses >.>
Edit: Just went to check something and according to Dhyer's topic Poco doesn't exactly have stellar MP of his own >.> I counted seven characters with more MP than his <.< So uh it doesn't seem like his MP is more than averagish either and in that case c) Peppita has hefty MP damage of her own >.>
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Just going to say, how does Guile beat Sue? Her damage at the time she leaves wasnt bad at all. >_> Guile has nearly game worst attack power. Sue's attack isnt that bad, thanks to her using bows which raise her strength.
and yes, Peppita does have good Mp.
and am i the only one that likes Zidane here? (as a character I mean)?
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To alanna:
3-turn averages:
1. Gadwin 365 (2 Meteorstrikes, 1 Dragon King Slash)
2. Justin 328 (2 MidAirCuts, 1 Attack)
3. Feena 213 (2 Burnflares, 1 Fire Whip)
4. Sue 207 (1 Puffy Fire, 2 Physicals)
Average: 278 (Kill Point 695)
Sue's physical: 188 Damage
Sue gets one shot of low 3HKO damage and then, she's stuck with a 4HKO, and she pretty much 4HKOs effectively. This is pretty bad. Considering she's running off 75% PC HP and 85% average speed, this is worse. Guile may have close to game-worst strength, but his techs have good mults and most of them run off his better stat, IIRC, and CC characters tend to be fairly good at chipping, which should get around Sue's terrible healing pretty well.
EDIT: Guile even manages above average damage on the three-turn charge. Looks fairly clear here: Guile should borderline 2HKO while Sue 4HKOs back. While he does have Zoah-level speed, Sue is also poorly off on speed, so it balances.
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and am i the only one that likes Zidane here? (as a character I mean)?
Nope ;D
You could argue a Nergal OHKO against Jude, which would make Nergal or MOMO Zidane's last opponent.
FF9 petrify is an auto win, right? Doesn't matter here since stoneproof is easy to get, but it might come up later.
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Stone doesn't give EXP/AP/money when you defeat an opponent with it. So, it's not considered a legal win to most.
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As far as I know MP Buster doesn't *always* reduce MP to zero. I'd have given Poco the win if it was that clear cut *and* he went first (not happening) Basically to MP bust Poco has to a) Go first and b) Lower MP to 0 *exactly* Anything else even MP =1 and Peppita just MP regens it back. Magical Dance costs HP to use not MP. On the other hand it's pretty clear that a) Peppita goes first and b) Has Turn 1 statuses >.>
Edit: Just went to check something and according to Dhyer's topic Poco doesn't exactly have stellar MP of his own >.> I counted seven characters with more MP than his <.< So uh it doesn't seem like his MP is more than averagish either and in that case c) Peppita has hefty MP damage of her own >.>
Poco's MP bust is 100% against average MDef which all the SO3 PC's are, so if he gets a turn he's killing her MP completely. Her own completely average MP score is irrelevant here, I'm not sure what you can argue with that. She's also slow by at least one measuring stick in the topic (speed). Granted, running speed. Her going first and statusing seems possible, but it won't be by outlasting Poco's MP buster.
Maria/Sophia/Adray/Nel/Peppita getting MP killed by anything is just a joke. Cliff/Roger sure but beyond that? No.
Sophia's MP isn't even all that notable in the DL. 1.2x is solid but not anything breathtaking, and she's cast best.
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Stone doesn't give EXP/AP/money when you defeat an opponent with it. So, it's not considered a legal win to most.
I really hate this stance, for the record. If you get turned to stone and are completely unable to get yourself out of it, you lose, and any argument to the contrary - one which states that incapacitating your opponent and having him at your mercy is forfeiture - is crazy to me, and to hell with what the rewards for doing the stoning are like.
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Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3)- Peppita. Not buying MP=0 is death for SO 3 PCs unless SO 3 PCs are also allowed to kill DL opponents with that strategy.
How's it different from SH SP to you? Running out of that is pretty much death as well and it only effects that series more or less.
SH characters can't use SP damage to kill enemies. SO 3 characters can use MP damage to kill enemies.
Also, I believe Petrify at least gives you the AP, if not the EXP and money.
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You get the victory music and winning poses for stoning the last enemy, right? Sounds like a win to me, just with penalties. Should WA Amnesia make the opponent forfeit because they won't get any experience, and therefore aren't really getting anything by winning the battle? Feels comparable to me.
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Luna using her 100% "make enemy run away" move also gives you a victory screen. Yet she was ranked in Light. Viki2-3 teleports enemies out of the battlefield. She was ranked in Light.
As far as I'm concerned, you need to win the battle, not just create a draw, and stoning an enemy FF9-style, making them run away, etc., counts as a draw to me.
The Amnesia examples doesn't work because even if you see it creating a draw, the person inflicting the status is the one creating it, so we wouldn't reward them, and the status becomes completely useless.
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You're not actually beating the enemy by teleporting him far away, just making a lot of distance. A stoned enemy is easy pickings to be killed. Just imagine Zidane hacking up the statue in front of him. (Would it work in-game if it ended the battle? I forget if FF9 had the kind of petrification that blocks damage, though that kind is rare.)
I think this "no rewards" thing is a red herring, an irrelevant detail that happens to be shared by moves that aren't valid wins for different reasons.
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Unless I'm going crazy, Stone does give you the AP for the kill, which is likely enough for me at least. Even if it isn't relevant for this particular match. (I recall whoring petrify against gold dragons or something for the AP).
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(SNES FF petrify imparts damage immunity, so I'd imagine FF9 is the same way. Not certain though.)
Anyway, the "no rewards" guideline thing is nice because
a) It gives a gameplay backing to whether or not a borderline "instant win" move should be considered.
b) In many cases, going by the flavour/animation seems a bit ambiguous. Black Dragon Grief looks remarkably like X-Zone, and by animation alone both could be argued as illegal or not. Rewards settle it nicely.
EDIT: Pyro, AP is determined by the battle formation, not actions during it. Enemies running away also yields AP. That may be good enough for you, but just leaving it out there.
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Don't see why xp matters for anything in a fight. Stone is an instant kill in my book.
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The real test there would be if you get AP for Fleeing yourself, since the game considering enemies running as a victory for the PCs seems pretty reasonable.
I don't really care so much about the rewards as whether you can distinguish between the move in question and running away yourself. The Lunar stuff pretty clearly doesn't get rid of enemy sprites on the map, whereas VP2's Astral Gate (or whatever it is) is clearly different from running away (kills the enemy on the map). That strikes me as a reasonable way to determine whether a win is legit for DL purposes or not.
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Godlike
Elc (AtLC) vs Ness (EB): Invincible, MP buster should be just enough to win this? For the record, I fucking hate MP Buster cause its one of those Mother Clair moves (yes, invincible doesn't bother me cause Elc gets that naturally! Only character I don't mind invincible whoring from <_<)
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3): Been said.
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs): Kneejerk.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Rolf Landale (PS2): Rolf nukes Gilgamesh, then he gets his 3 final attacks, which...should be enough to beat Rolf?
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7): Geshp had a decent physical, in addition to Ice (which Yuffie immunes), right? Should be enough.
Menardi (GS) vs Maxim (Lufia 2): Immunes Death Sieze's ID, and Menardi working around a Limit Fighter doesn't largely work.
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1): Uh, yeah, ACF Form rips Dryst in half.
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB): Speed difference and Holy resist really hit Cecil hard here.
Middle
Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3): MP Busting Argument works for me.
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2): Red Wizard can do damage, Lexis cannot. Again, taking DoS form where Red Wizard gets Lightbringer, etc.
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX): Doom. Kim's damage sucks too much and he isn't getting an Overdrive through Ally fast enough.
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9): Laguz Guard destroys Fera. Even without that, though, Fera's just not impressive, as has been said.
Light
Imoen (BGs) vs Chelsea Torn (ToD): Imoen beats the crap out of the failure Tales Archer.
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1): Yeah, Elfboy's analysis works for me.
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC): For the record, I think Guile's damage ends up better than you'd expect given how not all CC PCs have Damage techs to work with (Riddel comes to mind)...not that it matters admittedly, just saying!
Tai Ho (Suikos) vs Chat (ToE): I think?
Also, regarding Zidane's status and such...
I wanna say that one option Zidane has, though not necessarily for this fight, is putting enemy to sleep then spamming Thievery since I think that counts as Nontyped damage, thus doesn't wake the enemy up? Granted, how much you respect thievery varies! Should replay FF9 and try to get something that looks feasible for Thievery (saying "its completely awful!" just strikes me as wrong since you should be stealing from bosses on a regular basis, at very least, given how much awesome stuff they give. ADMITTEDLY, this doesn't necessarily mean it will surpass Zidane's physical end game damage), and test this, etc...and I could be making up the Sleep aspect.
Petrify...I honestly can't remember if FF9 really was "AP based on formation" or "AP based on enemy." FF7 and FF8 did the latter, after all. Enemy Mechanics Guide probably explains things well enough, probably the former given just how it works.
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Out of curiosity, how would something like Poco's MP busting work against Suikoden characters who have a tier-based charge system? Or against PS4/Grandia/SaGa characters who have more than one kind of 'MP'? SoA? What about Fire Emblem characters who have tome weapon charges? Would it nuke the entire tome forcing the character to switch to a new one? Maybe it would break all of them? Or would it just miss since there's no "MP" stat?
-Djinn
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Whether or not an enemy survives on the map seems completely meaningless, as well as not an option at all for games that use random encounters. After all, some games with fixed encounters have the enemy die off if you run away. So in these games, by your logic, you can use the Run command and win. I thought VP2 itself was this way, actually (I remember running away, then having to leave a room and come back, when hunting rare randoms), but I might be misremembering.
I can kinda see the case for petrify, since flavour-wise it should kill. Crap like Astral Maze and fear... no.
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P3 makes the monsters disappear if you successfully run away.
Part of reason that eject-esque spells are different than running is because it involves doing something that affects the enemy, which is different than running.
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Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2): Red Wizard can do damage, Lexis cannot. Again, taking DoS form where Red Wizard gets Lightbringer, etc.
RW would need a OHKO if he's going the damage route and I don't think he'd get that in time. Lexis still 3HKOs average with physicals and magic, and RW's HP isn't good in any version.
Out of curiosity, how would something like Poco's MP busting work against Suikoden characters who have a tier-based charge system? Or against PS4/Grandia/SaGa characters who have more than one kind of 'MP'? SoA? What about Fire Emblem characters who have tome weapon charges? Would it nuke the entire tome forcing the character to switch to a new one? Maybe it would break all of them? Or would it just miss since there's no "MP" stat?
My take?
I wouldn't let MP bust work on FE. Suikoden characters would lose charges of course. PS4/Grandia/Saga lose their MP stats. Which is TP/MP/JP. The weapon point skills are unaffected. SoA is the same thing, hits MP and doesn't affect SP.
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On Suikoden characters I was wondering if you would let MP Bust work on -all- their charges or just for one level at a time? And what about for MP-draining moves that don't -completely- drain MP? Would the draining start at the lv4 charges or the lv1 charges?
-Djinn
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I personally let it basically take out anything that the opponent uses as MP, since all magic/status/healing/physical techs run off MP in ATL 2. So, his 100% MP bust gets 100% of everything against average Mdef enemies.
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Just going to say, how does Guile beat Sue? Her damage at the time she leaves wasnt bad at all. >_> Guile has nearly game worst attack power. Sue's attack isnt that bad, thanks to her using bows which raise her strength.
and yes, Peppita does have good Mp.
and am i the only one that likes Zidane here? (as a character I mean)?
Not the only person, just one of the few. Like myself.
Stone = KO
I can't see how it could be viewed any other way.
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On Suikoden characters I was wondering if you would let MP Bust work on -all- their charges or just for one level at a time? And what about for MP-draining moves that don't -completely- drain MP? Would the draining start at the lv4 charges or the lv1 charges?
-Djinn
Well, if it is 100% MP busting, I see absolutely no reason to not let it hit all of them. Partial MP busting, I'd probably just evenly split them in some manner.
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Whether or not an enemy survives on the map seems completely meaningless, as well as not an option at all for games that use random encounters. After all, some games with fixed encounters have the enemy die off if you run away. So in these games, by your logic, you can use the Run command and win. I thought VP2 itself was this way, actually (I remember running away, then having to leave a room and come back, when hunting rare randoms), but I might be misremembering.
I'm looking for ways to *distinguish a victory from just running away*. Not saying "does it get rid of the enemy on the map, but "does it do more than just retreating/escaping the fight would." So no, escaping is never a victory, nor escape song, etc... Astral Maze does do something notably different from just running away, which is what I was looking for. Giving items/AP/Gold but not exp would work too, as would working on plot encounters you can't run away from but can whore out whatever move is in question.
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Astral Maze does do something notably different from just running away
It does?
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Feraligatr seems to have a decent shot of beating Jill if you don't allow Laguzguard. Damage is just short of a 2HKO, but Jill has noticeably below average RES so its a clean 2HKO for him (remember, Feraligatr attacks magically despite his higher attack stat in GSC!). Meanwhile, Jill's damage is just above a 2HKO, but Feraligatr has above average physical defense, so Jill can't 2HKO him back.
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Jill actually doesn't have 2HKO damage on average (She just misses it, and that's what no crit that go off before turn 3 or similar type skills considered in the average. Feraligator also technically 2HKOs, just with a move with an 80% hit rate. If you seeing it hit twice in a row (Which it likely would even if you took Jill's evasion raw), no problem 2HKOing there (Minus whether the Laguzguard is legal or applicable or what have you. I can't speak on that one yet).
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Godlike
Elc (AtLC) vs Ness (EB) - Odd to see a PC fight in Godlike.
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3)
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs) - ...I think... could be argued either way to me.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Rolf Landale (PS2)
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7) - I allow Limit Meters to start full, so...
Menardi (GS) vs Maxim (Lufia 2) - I allow Limit Meters to start full, so... (otherwise, it might have been Menardi's fight... agh!)
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1) - Not sure... my Brig respect is pretty high, so it seems like a close fight. ACF form probably beats him, though. Argh.
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB) - Harder, better, faster, stronger!
Middle
Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3) - As much as I'd LIKE to vote for Peppita here, Poco's 100% MP busting just wastes her. I could see statusing him, but her status isn't 100% accurate, so Poco's more likely to win in most cases. For reference, I would have allowed Peppita to MP kill Poco in return if she could.
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2) - Starts with full IP meter...
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX) - Doom + Turtling works. Zidane's okay.
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9) - Definitely see Laguzguard as working against Pokemon or any non-humanoid creature, really.
Light
Imoen (BGs) vs Chelsea Torn (ToD) - No BGs, but I'm of the opinion that they both fail pretty hard.
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1) - Hey, it's the first time I've seen a VP1 character win a fight in Light.
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC) - I think I allow G1 characters to use some magic, that's probably enough to give this fight to Sue, though they're both pretty horrible.
Tai Ho (Suikos) vs Chat (ToE) - Chat's pretty Puny to me.
-Djinn
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Her chaos is definitely accurate enough Djinn. Poco has *no* status resist. The accuracy of Panic Dance against enemies with 16 SA resist is in my sig. Feel free to try the enemies in the battle arena for yourself if you want though. Panic Dance is definitely 80% - 100% at L1 against enemies with poor SA resist. Even going with OK's values against enemies with higher SA resist Panic Dance is *still* Turn 1. Frozen Daggers is also 70 - 100% against low SA resist. Take Peppita back to fight against enemies that Nel destroyed with Ice Daggers' freeze on disc one and that's quite clear. Counters and Magic Hook are also accurate chaos though those don't apply for Poco. Only her ID is horrible in general.
Thank you Dhyer. That's what I'm saying, Peppita has hefty MP nukage herself. Why people are ignoring that is beyond me. Peppita is 2HKO to both HP *+* MP to average DEF and that's *without* factoring in damage increases from Power Dance, Berserk, *both* Poco's DEF sucks. Pyro also clued me in that Cure Alls lower DEF so if Poco equips that he's not equipping Magic Book for 100% MP Bust *and* he's shooting himself in the foot by lowering an already crappy DEF further. I'm not sure if Pyro meant Cure Alls just lower DEF by a certain number or if they are DEF =1. If the latter ... uhh.
Super - Fine! Poco wins if he goes first! If he doesn't he has to equip the Magic Book for 100% MP bust to average unless I'm misreading the stat topic and if he isn't equipping Cure All instead to me he's status bait. He's 95% w/o Magic Book apparently then a bunch of other lower values that I don't understand >.> No offense to Captain K but those running speeds are based on Adray running around the battle arena twice. As a sprinter Peppita is faster than Adray/Sophia/Maria. Anyone that takes control of Adray or Maria after anyone else notices how slow they are to start with. I don't know how people see this match in terms of turns since both characters are ARPG types sort of but for if forced to turn based in the DL I see Adray started off as dead last soeed then getting slightly quicker turns as the battle goes on. For Peppita she goes first before anyone who is dead last in averages (hi Poco) but gets slightly slower as a battle goes on. Turn based Poco also isn't going to be going any where. How do people see Faerie Friend or other SO3 moves missing when the enemy is smack bang in front of them? Unless Poco has evade or some mad invincibility frames I don't know about. If using SO3 ARPG style Peppita simply stays out of Poco's range and snipes with Instanto Blast or Frozen Daggers. Anyone who's faced Peppita in VS mode or as a boss knows Instanto Blast can hit their character anywhere on the field and can cause their moving character to stagger, knocking them out of their run. If using ATL style Peppita can still use range to her advantage. If a mixture of SO3 + ATL uhhh no idea there, from the ATL videos I've seen Poco moves in Squares >.>
Djinn - Averages -
Poco DEF -
Defense - Shu > Diek > Gruga > Choko > Elc > Tosh > Arc > Shante > Iga > Sania > Gogen > Poco (w/th Magic Book) > Lieza
MP - 7 characters > Poco > the rest
From tests I did on average Faerie Friend on Luther (no Berserk)
Short X (900~) > Power Dance (invincibility frame) > Faerie Friend (7000~ HP x 8 + 700~MP damage x 8) She also has enough Fury left to cancel into Power Dance at the end of FF and the from the way I remember Tal putting it to me was that with the invincibility frames of Peppita's dances the invincibility would be used up on the enemies next turn. Hey I'll even knock another hit of powerdanced Faerie Friend! 7000+ x 7 = 49'000+ HP total (4900 MP) Well fizzlesticks Peppita *still* does more damage than the rest of the SO3 characters >.>
With Power Dance + Berserk - Short X (1000~) > Power Dance (invincibility frame) > Faerie Friend (9000~ HP x 8 + 900 MP damage x 8) >_____> Then she cancels into PD again then another Faerie Friend then a third Power Dance + Faerie Friend. Yes Peppita has enough fury for that in game thanks to Berserk, dance fury costs are *low* People have said before in chat that they allow cancel combos + Berserk because that's the way the game is played. Why would they suddenly change their mind now? Why would they disallow Power Dance either? Do they disallow Maria's Power Up?
*rant*
**
Other debate thingy- Eh if Petrify works in a PC's game and enemies can use it in game to cause them to lose then they can cause it to non Petrify immune PCs in the DL. If the sole survivor of a battle in FF9 is petrified then it's game over so FF9 characters with Petrify in the DL? Works. As for moves that causes the enemy to run away well if they cause humaniods to run away in game then they do that in the DL too >.> If SHC Anastasia's Spirit Ward causes any soldiers or what to run in SHC (I forget) then it works on PCs in the DL. For moves that teleport enemies out of the battle field Viki etc wins unless the enemy has instant death immunity. I also see that as similar to X Zone.
Zidane wise? SO3 characters can block doom and petrify (two accessory) slots. Mini? Those that have healing alternate between using it and status until status hits or chip with damage and healing in a epic slap fight. Zidane can't block everything irrc >.> Can't do anything about Sleep + Thievery spam though if Meeple is right! Unless Soul Blade is counterable. Feasible! (Peppita and Albel can counter weird crap like Proclaimer's Speed Hax and Nobleman's Spare Me! in game >.>)
Too bad about Jude yeah Pyro. I forgot MOMO was in though >.>
Yes I still have Magical Girl MOMO hype left to comfort me if Peppita is robbed*sniff sniff* ;_;
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So... is the argument for Peppita that Poco is statused since he's not equipping CureAll? Or is it that since he's equipping CureAll that his MP bust doesn't OHKO?
Let's see, by all averages Poco should go after Peppita. I don't see Peppita OHKOing, but she -could- use Turn 1 status if Poco's not blocking statuses w/ CureAll. So Poco blocks status, takes a hit from Peppita. Then he uses MP Bust. This sounds like it would normally OHKO MP Kill Peppita, but I guess the argument is that without the Magic Book (since he has to block status w/ CureAll) it's not 100% MP busting? This means Peppita gets another turn, uses her best damage and finishes off the 2HKO, if you see Peppita as having a 2HKO. If she doesn't, then Poco gets another turn to use MP Bust again, which should be more than enough to finish off Peppita's MP supply, even if Peppita has regen'd some MP.
I see Peppita as having 2HKO, so if these assumptions are correct, then I need to change my vote.
-Djinn
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It doesn't take much at all to 2HKO Poco. The little guy is pretty frail (70% Pdurability).
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Can't AtL2 characters equip two armors? Magic Book + Cure All should be fine I thought.
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That might get him OHKOd though. Poco's base defense is bad to start with, and he takes a 24 Def hit to do that.
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Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7) - I allow Limit Meters to start full, so...
Imoen (BGs) vs Chelsea Torn (ToD) - No BGs, but I'm of the opinion that they both fail pretty hard.
Would that actually help Yuffie all that much here? That would mean that moves like Omnislash, Catastrophe, a full Tifa physical chain, and Highwind now all have to be compensated in the averages more directly somehow.
Also, Imoen is one of the most evil Lights around, which both some physical immunity and ST magic immunity spells.
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I never did post a full field.
Godlike
Elc (AtLC) vs Ness (EB)
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3)
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs): It doesn't even matter whether or not Brahms can 2HKO, since he goes second.
Heavy
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1)
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB)
Middle
Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3): Anything about an SO3 charactert having turn 1 status is news to me. Poco doesn't need the cure-all.
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2)
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX)
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9)
Light
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1)
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC)
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That might get him OHKOd though. Poco's base defense is bad to start with, and he takes a 24 Def hit to do that.
I didn't think his base defense was that bad, it's just that he uses the Magic Book as default. Regardless, if he does get OHKOd that would be a problem indeed.
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Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7) - I allow Limit Meters to start full, so...
Imoen (BGs) vs Chelsea Torn (ToD) - No BGs, but I'm of the opinion that they both fail pretty hard.
Would that actually help Yuffie all that much here? That would mean that moves like Omnislash, Catastrophe, a full Tifa physical chain, and Highwind now all have to be compensated in the averages more directly somehow.
I don't figure OPB moves/ moves that can't be performed reliably into averages.
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Then the entire cast overkills? When the entire cast uniformly relies on a front-loaded attack type in that sense, you need to toss a balancing measure. I don't think anyone hypes the entire LoL1 cast OHKOing, and full limit gauges are a similar situation in practice.
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Damn, you're right. I have to rethink this. I'll get back to you on how I'm going to view this.
-Djinn
EDIT: Right, well - I guess the caveat is that if an entire cast has OPB moves they should be included in a three-turn average.
For reference:
3-turn Average assuming first-turn full Limit Meter: 8731 [kill point: 21828; avg endgame enemy HP:15000]
Cloud: 17267 (Omnislash - Bolt/Ice3 - Bolt/Ice3)
Cid: 11100 (Highwind - Physicalx2)
Yuffie: 9250 (Doom of the Living - Physicalx2)
Red XIII: 8816 (Earth Rave - Physicalx2)
Barret: 8433 (Catastrophe - Physicalx2)
Tifa: 6400 (Lvl4 Limit chain - Physicalx2)
Cait Sith: 4833 (Physical [4500] - Toy Soldier [7000, best semi-reliable Limit] - Physical [3000, being generous])
Vincent: 3750 (Chaos Sabrex2 - Satan Flare)
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I posted a couple corrections to that average in the stat topic. Kill point is 23875, as I said.
Not really seeing how this helps Yuffie at all. She gets one turn of 63% PCHP damage and gets her face smashed in, here.
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Someone needs to dedicate a post somewhere to explaining PCHP because it seems very counter-intuitive to any of my math.
Why is 2.5 average the kill point? The kill point I listed was the average HP of endgame enemies.
So Tifa always gets full Yeah! Limits? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with what that would imply about the rest of my views concerning criticals and non-accurate multi-hit attacks in ARPGs,. I went with the non-Yeah! numbers because I figured it was the 'safer' choice.
-Djinn
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PC HP being 2.5x average damage is balance a variety of factors, including healing, status, and MP limitations. Set PC HP really high and healing and status are ubered, and any games with MP limitations are going to feel them badly. If you set it too low, then healing and status lose a lot of worth, and you'll have OHKOs flying around everywhere. 2.5 is just what most of the board agreed was a good number, although you may disagree and go with another number.
I also don't give Tifa full Yeah's, but it's not going to make a large enough difference on the damage average here (Puts the kill point at around 22000?).
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Kill points:
Some games have durable enemies. Some games have frail enemies. We do not, as a general rule, use their HP to determine how much damage PC casts do. Otherwise, you'd get cases like Grandia 2, where the entire cast has OHKO damage (G2 endgame HP average is about 3000) and cases like Xenosaga 2 where the entire cast would be Punies. (Or, to choose a less extreme but more DL-relevant case, the entire Tales of the Abyss cast would be pretty wretched on damage, as I remember randoms hanging around the 30k-50k region in the final dungeon.)
It makes most sense to compare casts to each other. If I do more damage than average PCs in my cast, I do good damage. If I do less, I do bad damage. This strikes me as personally very intuitive, and to a lot of others in the DL, which is why we adopted it.
Now, why does 2.5x average damage kill 2.5x average durability? The answer is: No reason at all. It is in fact completely arbitrary, chosen simply because some of us decided that made for the most interesting balance of matches. By choosing a higher kill point, you'd lower all damage, which would cause healers and status attacks to dominate too much (even an outstanding damage-dealer can be beaten easily by a healer if you set a kill point of 5x average). By choosing a lower kill point, you'd raise all damage, making OHKOs more common and turning more matches into quickdraws, where alternate strategies would be less effective.
Now, if you take issue with 2.5x, and want to use something else? Terrific! Please do so; use whatever you feel makes most sense to you. All I ask is you be consistent about it. Use 2x average for one cast? Use it for all of 'em.
On Tifa's limits:
Usually, when moves require skill to be pulled off, we assume the player has that skill. We don't assume Yuri misses Judgement rings, even though it's easy enough to do on some of the high-end skills. We don't assume Sabin misses blitzes, even though I certainly botch a Bum Rush now and then. And we assume Tifa gets Yeah!s. It helps that the first 4-5 are ridiculously easy to get. Not sure what ARPG stuff you're talking about in comparison; note that we usually DO assume that combos can be executed properly, and those can certainly take some skill for some games.
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Kill points:
Some games have durable enemies. Some games have frail enemies. We do not, as a general rule, use their HP to determine how much damage PC casts do. Otherwise, you'd get cases like Grandia 2, where the entire cast has OHKO damage (G2 endgame HP average is about 3000) and cases like Xenosaga 2 where the entire cast would be Punies. (Or, to choose a less extreme but more DL-relevant case, the entire Tales of the Abyss cast would be pretty wretched on damage, as I remember randoms hanging around the 30k-50k region in the final dungeon.)
This seems more like a problem of what levels stat topics are using than anything inherently wrong with the 'take kill point as the average of endgame enemy HP' to me. If enemy HP is far outpacing character damage, then obviously the characters need to be higher levels. Alternately, if enemies are far too weak, then the characters are overlevelled.
That's just my knee-jerk reaction to this claim. I guess if Endgame Boss durability is wildly different from Endgame randoms durability, there can be discrepancies between what is 'endgame level'. But I already take some issue with a few choices for 'endgame level' in the stat topics, so I won't comment further.
I can understand -why- the 2.5x average damage = kill point view arose, it makes less debates over things like what 'endgame level', 'average endgame enemy durability', etc. are in each game. ...I just don't agree with it personally. I may end up accepting it anyway simply so I don't have to do something outrageous like stat topic every game myself just so I can satisfy my views, though...
Alternately, I may start hyping all G2 characters as Godlike and all XS characters as Punies just so I don't have to think about this anymore.
Interestingly enough, about your TotA example - since I'm going to have to figure out an average that includes Mystic Artes, this already brings the characters' average damage closer to the 30k HP range you mentioned. ...>.>;;
-Djinn
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Okay, so you're proposing that, as an example, G1 enemies fail too much against a party at normal endgame levels, so let's LLG the game and base the stat topic off the LLG because they might not fail then. No. Enemy competence varies from game to game, it's a fact of life. Adjusting the playstyles/levels to the level of competence of the enemies just doesn't happen. This isn't a matter of levels -at all-. There are games that have more competent enemies and less competent enemies, and their HP isn't the only factor. Your proposal is far more counter-intuitive than any arbitrary kill point setting could be, since it doesn't account to the typical power level of an endgame party nor it accounts for that natural difference. Do you honestly think that the fact that, say, Shadow Hearts 3 randoms are better than Chrono Trigger randoms stems solely from levels? Instead of simply the fact they were designed to fulfill different roles, or with more or less thought regarding the player's assumed power levels? I'd be baffled if you said you do.
Essentially, what I'm saying is that there are many ways to streamline things. Trying to do so by trying to make all enemies equally competent is just about the most difficult, pointless and finicky of them, though.
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You might say the enemies are incompetent, others will say that Justin & co. are exceptionally strong. I choose to say that an RPG cast will be doing about average damage to whatever strength their endgame enemies are. It should give about the same end result as using an arbitrary kill point with an arbitrary endgame level. The way I view it sets endgame level directly in proportion to endgame enemies' levels. Not counter-intuitive at all, but trying to be more faithful to the game's mechanics while still giving a balanced average for the DL.
-Djinn
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No, those enemies are incompetent. Grandia enemies do horrible damage, and if they 10HKO PCs in game, that's pretty amazing. And they aren't ever really good, so unless Justin starts uberized, it doesn't really make any sense. In terms of scaling, comparing to what endgame randoms can do and how much damage they can take doesn't really make any more sense than saying VP characters own because their HP is way past 9999.
And honestly, in G2, no ones particular damage matters because everyone is so close and all randomly falls below any damage. Do they really seem better than someone in a game where randoms take 10 hits to die, and maybe someone can do it in 5 instead. It seems like that characters would be badass and standout. In Grandias, it seems the characters are pretty interchangable on the damage front. And really, should someone in Grandia be more tanky than a character have better defensive tanking than Raquel? Raquel's defense is awesome in game, but Grandia PCs might be 20 average attacks. Raquel won't.
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If characters are all uniformly OHKOing endgame enemies and it's taking endgame enemies 20 hits to kill, then I'm positing that this team of characters is overlevelled.
I'm not proposing direct scaling like zOMG all VP characters with their 10k HP >>>>> FE characters with their 30 HP or anything like that. I don't see why you brought up VP1 HP at all, really.
-Djinn
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By that logic Peppita should be allowed her powderdanced Faerie Friend/Dream Hammer/high hit Kaboom combos Elf >.> My Peppita using skills are champ <.<
Monkeyfinger- Like hell he doesn't. You've said numerous times *yourself* that you see Peppita's chaos counters as 100% almost all of the time due to the testing you did on battle arena enemies. Well Panic Dance is the exact same thing in that self same battle arena. In fact it has even more chance to inflict chaos on an opponent since it's 7 - 10 hits of chaos waves at L1. Then the number of chaos waves increase as Panic Dance gains skill levels up to over 20 hits at skill level 10. Frozen Daggers is also over 50% against battle arena opponents again (i.e hello Devil Childs)
If near 100% isn't turn one then what the hell is it? xD I thought people considered anything from 50 - 100% Turn One.
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If characters are all uniformly OHKOing endgame enemies and it's taking endgame enemies 20 hits to kill, then I'm positing that this team of characters is overlevelled.
But it's NOT. You can do a Grandia LLG and the enemies will still fail (because a lot of Exp is given by bosses). There is no level low enough to make these enemies competent.
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If characters are all uniformly OHKOing endgame enemies and it's taking endgame enemies 20 hits to kill, then I'm positing that this team of characters is overlevelled.
But it's NOT. You can do a Grandia LLG and the enemies will still fail (because a lot of Exp is given by bosses). There is no level low enough to make these enemies competent.
But it is. In this one case, Grandia, it may be impossible to have low enough level characters to evenly match the endgame bosses. In this case, I would apply a theoretically lower-level cast. I wouldn't particularly like doing it this way as it goes against the gameplay mechanics, but this is one arbitrary decision based off of one game's extreme situation. It's not that different of a decision as the arbitrary 'kill point' that's been artificially imposed on -all- games.
I'm not saying PC HP is an innately bad way to balance a cast, I'm just saying that it's less intuitive than comparing against average endgame enemy HP. In Grandia's case, this apparently doesn't work, so a theoretical view would have to be taken for consistency's sake.
-Djinn
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So... is the argument for Peppita that Poco is statused since he's not equipping CureAll? Or is it that since he's equipping CureAll that his MP bust doesn't OHKO?
Both ;p
He's statused if the voter doesn't allow Cureall to block all statuses. In the stat topic for example Dyher says he allows them to equip one and block one status of choice otherwise they'd be horribly overpowered and broken for a DL status blocker. Personally that seems fair enough to me. Poco gets the option of blocking Chaos or Freeze from my point of view =) Being unfair I'd say who knows if ATL characters can block Freeze so I'm allowing Frozen Daggers to go through anyway >.> I have been trying to be fair here though!
If the voter does allow him to block all statuses then yeah the argument is that MP Buster doesn't OHKO without Magic Book.
Also in the spirit of fairness I've been assuming Peppita's damage thus far from L1 skill proficiency (for the sake of this debate that is because OK doesn't have Power Dance/skill proficiency factored in his topic yet and it confuses people if they don't have a stat topic with damage values right in front of them >.>) She does also have the option of using L10 Power Dance > Faerie Friend (with or without Berserk/cancel combos), L10 Power Dance > L10 Faerie Friend + L10 Critical Hit MP (with or w/o Berserk/cancel combos. Don't know what you take for proficiency SO3 wise Djinn but normally I usually take at least Power Dance as L10. Peppita's dances like symbology take less usage to level up that other battle skills so they can be spammed to level up fairly quickly/at a reasonable rate. Like Maria's Scatter Beam =D For actual voting purposes I'll be going with Peppita using a L10 Power Dance and something like a L3/L4 Faerie Friend combo.
Pyro + Tal - I see. Thanks. Yeah I'm done with being nice to Poco. He equips the Magic Book + Cureall, lowers his DEF to 35 and gets horribly, horribly overkilled. Or he equips Magic Book + Guard and turns into a spinning top or popsicle.
70% PDur for default Poco? Super said that Peppita's damage is 1.5 times the average (using OK's topic) Is that 150% damage or am I doing this wrong? ;p
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If characters are all uniformly OHKOing endgame enemies and it's taking endgame enemies 20 hits to kill, then I'm positing that this team of characters is overlevelled.
But it's NOT. You can do a Grandia LLG and the enemies will still fail (because a lot of Exp is given by bosses). There is no level low enough to make these enemies competent.
But it is. In this one case, Grandia, it may be impossible to have low enough level characters to evenly match the endgame bosses. In this case, I would apply a theoretically lower-level cast. I wouldn't particularly like doing it this way as it goes against the gameplay mechanics, but this is one arbitrary decision based off of one game's extreme situation. It's not that different of a decision as the arbitrary 'kill point' that's been artificially imposed on -all- games.
I'm not saying PC HP is an innately bad way to balance a cast, I'm just saying that it's less intuitive than comparing against average endgame enemy HP. In Grandia's case, this apparently doesn't work, so a theoretical view would have to be taken for consistency's sake.
-Djinn
Problem is that this is an issue consistent to -most- games. Random enemies' HP just isn't a good measuring stick on average for how damaging the cast members are because they get blown up by stiff breezes. Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy 7, Xenosaga 1, SaGa Frontier, Wild ARMs 1, Wild ARMs 2, Wild ARMs 4, Dragon Quest 8, -every single Suikoden ever-, Final Fantasy Tactics, Shadow Hearts 1, likely Shadow Hearts 3, Fire Emblems and so on and so on. The list is huge and ever growing. Your defense is that not comparing to average enemy HP is "unintuitive". However, doing that comparison makes the damages between PCs often not matter, because everybody does varying shades of OHKO in that case - which is far more unintuitive, because it completely disregards the synergy and general functioning of the PCs in the games, and even creates the monstrosity of inflating PC casts because their enemies fail.
PC damages should be compared amongst themselves, not against enemies. This just doesn't work for comparative measures, unless you're fine with a system where everybody OHKOs everybody and the few people who don't because they happen to be in a game where enemies can take a hit weep and fail. That's just entirely unrepresentative of the casts themselves. We already use enemy stats for most comparative measures, so they're not unrepresented in that sense. However, using -their- durability as the killpoint threshold doesn't work if you ever want to create any sort of a sensible duelling setting. It's an arbitrary method that we use, sure, but you might want to give it a little bit more thought before dismissing it as unrepresentative and unintuitive. The alternative is even worse.
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Just listing my votes since this whole discussion is a bit over my head :)
Godlike
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3)
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs)
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Rolf Landale (PS2) I actually played both, but I admit I really didn't like FF5 enough to really remember monster stats...
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7) I kinda like Yuffie... oh well. Any SF2 char winning is good in my book anyway! :)
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB) Gah... When I nominated both, I didn't actually want them to fight together on first round... Got to give it to Fenril due to general physical ass-kickery.
Middle
Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3)
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2)
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX) Played both, not really certain either way.
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9) A beast-hating woman against a beast. Poor beast.
Light
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1) And Suo wins! Sad that he can't hear those words very often...
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70% PDur for default Poco? Super said that Peppita's damage is 1.5 times the average (using OK's topic) Is that 150% damage or am I doing this wrong? ;p
...well that explains a lot.
Generally an average attack is 40% damage against an average durability target. So 1.5x average would be 60% damage to an average durability target. Since Poco is ~70% durability, he would still live.
Re: scaling arguments.
Raquel with Equites for uber Godlike. That is all.
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Godlike
Elc (AtLC) vs Ness (EB) - Elc. Invincible, MP nuke, etc. Not even Gutsy criticals help here!
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3) - Boot Asgard. XF form is way too broken. Anyway, it wins EASILY.
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs) - Brahms.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Rolf Landale (PS2) - Gilgamesh. ;_;
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7) - Geshp.
Menardi (GS) vs Maxim (Lufia 2) - Maxim.
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1) - Belselk.
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB) - Cecil.
Middle
Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3) - Poco.
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2) - Lexis.
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX) - Zidane. Thievery one-shots.
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9) - Jill. Brave Axe with Stun. Smites.
Light
Imoen (BGs) vs Chelsea Torn (ToD) - Imoen.
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1) - Suo.
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC) - Guile. Is Magus.
Tai Ho (Suikos) vs Chat (ToE) - Chat.
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Godlike
Elc (AtLC) Damn you Pyro~ vs Ness (EB) - ;_;
Deis (BoFs) PC BOLTX vs Asgard (WA3)
Gilgamesh (FF5) SPOILAR vs Rolf Landale (PS2)
Heavy
Geshp (SF2) lol shf2 vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7)
Menardi (GS) Infinite aiel hype vs Maxim (Lufia 2) Infinite aiel hype
Middle
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2) Wrench man
Feraligatr (PKMN) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9) Flying Meeple
Light
I can't vote in the BEST DIVISION? Hatbot is a monster.
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Well, since Yuffie uses a level 3 limit instead of a level 4, that could conceivably help her there, since level 4's take forever to get.
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Problem is that this is an issue consistent to -most- games. Random enemies' HP just isn't a good measuring stick on average for how damaging the cast members are because they get blown up by stiff breezes. Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy 7, Xenosaga 1, SaGa Frontier, Wild ARMs 1, Wild ARMs 2, Wild ARMs 4, Dragon Quest 8, -every single Suikoden ever-, Final Fantasy Tactics, Shadow Hearts 1, likely Shadow Hearts 3, Fire Emblems and so on and so on. The list is huge and ever growing.
This is by no means 'most games'. And in the cases of FF7, WA4, and the Suikoden and FE series, I -know- that just being a few levels lower will give you a reasonable balance against enemy HP. And as for SaGa... the enemies scale up with you and even very late in the game there is considerable threat from the randoms...
Your defense is that not comparing to average enemy HP is "unintuitive". However, doing that comparison makes the damages between PCs often not matter, because everybody does varying shades of OHKO in that case - which is far more unintuitive, because it completely disregards the synergy and general functioning of the PCs in the games, and even creates the monstrosity of inflating PC casts because their enemies fail.
Yes, that's my defense, because it makes sense to me. Unless the DL has a rule that mandates the use of PCHP, I'm pretty sure I'm allowed the hold the view that makes sense to me. IF the DL wants to use this mandate, then I'm fine with that, and stat topics may as well become an official part of the site. To me, comparing against endgame enemies with characters at appropriate levels serves the same balancing function as PCHP. If characters are at the appropriate levels, then the synergy of PCs should, by definition, still be preserved. Likewise, PCs should not become massively inflated due to weak enemies. If anything, casts with weak enemies may be hurt by this due to the cast having to be taken at lower levels.
PC damages should be compared amongst themselves, not against enemies.
DL Bosses are taken against PCs, it's not an illogical leap to take PCs against enemies.
This just doesn't work for comparative measures, unless you're fine with a system where everybody OHKOs everybody and the few people who don't because they happen to be in a game where enemies can take a hit weep and fail. That's just entirely unrepresentative of the casts themselves. We already use enemy stats for most comparative measures, so they're not unrepresented in that sense. However, using -their- durability as the killpoint threshold doesn't work if you ever want to create any sort of a sensible duelling setting. It's an arbitrary method that we use, sure, but you might want to give it a little bit more thought before dismissing it as unrepresentative and unintuitive. The alternative is even worse.
The alternative just has less documentation. All of the stat topics have been written with PCHP in mind, so it's understandable that most people use that as their measuring stick for PC casts. I may well end up doing so myself for simplicity's sake, but the Endgame Enemy HP Comparative Method is what made the most logical sense to me because it would be using the game's mechanics more directly. This method -does- lower the levels of casts whose enemies essentially give more experience than they are worth. But this kind of arbitrary level-lowering doesn't seem to be any different in terms of balancing than the artificial 2.5HKO imposed on average duellers that PCHP creates.
Also, I have never said PCHP was unrepresentative of a duelling casts' worth/balance. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that I didn't think it was bad method. In fact, if most of the DL chooses to use this method, you should just universalize it since apparently no other balancing method is satisfactory.
Note that either way, someone (whoever came up with it/understands it best) should definitely make a post in the stat topic forum fully explaining the PCHP concept/reasoning for newbies. It would definitely speed up the learning process.
-Djinn
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If characters are all uniformly OHKOing endgame enemies and it's taking endgame enemies 20 hits to kill, then I'm positing that this team of characters is overlevelled.
This really is just a regurgitation, but if all characters are OHKOing random enemies at end game, this is more a fault of the game than it is of the characters being "overlevelled". Using Wild ARMS 4 as an example, enemies were designed to be frail, but really damaging on certain spectrums. Every single PC in that cast can OHKO randoms at end game. Yes, it requires a bit more knowledge about the game and set up, but they can do it. However, that's the way the game is set up. I might be the biggest Arnaud fan on the forums, but you will probably never see me hyping him as having OHKO damage against average. It's not about over or under levelled, the game is designed that way, and the randoms reflect it. To propose that WA4 PCs are overlevelled because of a way the randoms are designed seems really silly. Especially since there are Lucky Cards + EXP mults, leading the level average to be slightly higher in actual practice.
Further more, you get really awkward cases. Enemies that prefer physical damage would suffer against Jude/Raquel and even Arnaud to an extent. But magical damage would only run into a brick wall against Yulie mainly. So now what? If there are more end game enemies that use physical damage, thus making 3/4s of the cast look bad ass, are we going to suddenly hype them as all being overlevelled if at every other point in the game, enemies mainly used magic? Of course not.
Not to mention that in certain games like WA4, PCs have individual strengths and weaknesses. If you had a hypothetical situation, where you can't see the enemy HP metres, are you still going to choose Arnaud to damage someone over Raquel, who easily deals 2x more damage? Comparing PC cast damage against themselves over enemy HP makes more sense as well because usually, it will better reflects the things that PC are actually better at doing.
But it is. In this one case, Grandia, it may be impossible to have low enough level characters to evenly match the endgame bosses. In this case, I would apply a theoretically lower-level cast. I wouldn't particularly like doing it this way as it goes against the gameplay mechanics, but this is one arbitrary decision based off of one game's extreme situation. It's not that different of a decision as the arbitrary 'kill point' that's been artificially imposed on -all- games.
I'm not saying PC HP is an innately bad way to balance a cast, I'm just saying that it's less intuitive than comparing against average endgame enemy HP. In Grandia's case, this apparently doesn't work, so a theoretical view would have to be taken for consistency's sake.
Snow already pointed this out, but it happens in more games than you think. All of a sudden you're doing 8x more work because so many games have to be taken at a case by case basis. Should WA4 PCs be taken at level 1 then? They can still kill enemies with lots of high end equipment. Should S5 PCs be taken at level 50? You end up with a lot more arbitrary cases, and holding consistency becomes MUCH more difficult.
This is by no means 'most games'. And in the cases of FF7, WA4, and the Suikoden and FE series, I -know- that just being a few levels lower will give you a reasonable balance against enemy HP. And as for SaGa... the enemies scale up with you and even very late in the game there is considerable threat from the randoms...
That's actually a pretty big list. Keep in mind that Snow likely didn't list all of them AND as he pointed out, it is GROWING. It's also not necessarily true that being a couple of levels lower solves the problem. Some games allow naturally more twinking than others. Some games have massive damage cannons. You can be level 1 with Equites and Raquel will still OHKO every random in existance. You can use a lower level in S5, but giving PCs Power/Boost/Crazed Runes will still have them OHKOing enemies with ease. Then you run into FUN cases like FF8 where enemies are level scaled but using junctions still make them either fail horrendously or become the hardest bosses in FF history.
Yes, that's my defense, because it makes sense to me. Unless the DL has a rule that mandates the use of PCHP, I'm pretty sure I'm allowed the hold the view that makes sense to me. IF the DL wants to use this mandate, then I'm fine with that, and stat topics may as well become an official part of the site. To me, comparing against endgame enemies with characters at appropriate levels serves the same balancing function as PCHP.
You're entitled to hold whatever scaling you would like. But this method just seems to bring a lot more problems than it attempts to solve. You end up having to take a look at a case by case for LOTS of games. You get lots more arbitrary situations. If you can somehow find a way to define it all in one piece though, be everyone's guest! People in DL have different ways of scaling/interpreting things. But we're pointing out that the method you're proposing is only going to lead to more work, confusion and disagreement. Set the kill point higher/lower if you don't like it!
If characters are at the appropriate levels, then the synergy of PCs should, by definition, still be preserved. Likewise, PCs should not become massively inflated due to weak enemies. If anything, casts with weak enemies may be hurt by this due to the cast having to be taken at lower levels.
Some PCs growths don't particularly take off until several levels in. Suikodens are known for this. Gavaya for example, isn't that good until level 55 or so. Some PC skill sets don't become developed until later levels. If you hold back WA4 levels, Yulie suddenly takes longer to learn key abilities like Sacrifice or Quicken. If you're trying to lower levels so that battles are "reasonable", you also need to define what reasonable means. Does my party have to be half dead and all MP out? Or should I just use a little bit of my resources since they are randoms?
But this kind of arbitrary level-lowering doesn't seem to be any different in terms of balancing than the artificial 2.5HKO imposed on average duellers that PCHP creates.
Not true. Setting 2.5x average damage as a kill point means that all games abide to that 2.5x. Its easy to see an follow. Using level lowering, you end up running into cases where you're wondering how many levels you need to lower by. Again, do I take WA4 PCs at level 41 since that's a minimalist approach? Level 1? Enemies can still be one shotted there. Do I take FF7 PCs at level 29 because even under a LLG approach with materia, most bosses are still fodder? etc. Those are extreme cases, but I think you get what I'm trying to say. Saying, let's lower all levels of these games by say 10 doesn't work well when you run into games that have weird levelling systems (CC) or have lower natural levels as a basis (Legend of Mana for NPCs as an example).
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There's no way to "universalize" a voting convention. People will vote how they want and no one can do anything about it other than try to present their viewpoint.
As for just falling in line with the majority because of how the documentation is set up? Yeah, I know the feeling. I've never been vocal about it, but... while I love how the DL uses game mechanics as the basis for voting, I've never liked how far the core members take the obsession with uniqueness. My personal line is at limited/one-of-a-kind things that everyone can use, like Knight of the Round - I agree that no one has a strong enough claim to get something like that in the DL, since there's nothing suggesting that they can keep it to themselves. Things like low-level materias in FF7, basic runes in Suikoden games, the spellsets from Lufia 2, though... in MonkeyDL, everyone would get those, and would actually resemble an optimal in-game build that didn't involve special treatment. I fucking hate cases like the Suikodens and Grandia 3 and FF7 and the Baldur's Gates where the PCs are notably different in the DL, but the differences don't look anything like what set them apart in game. But it's a pain in the ass to vote that way due to how the stat topics are set up, and a lot of people would grouse over it, so I usually don't do it! (There are some cases, though, where I have to hold my line, such as FF1.)
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Well, there's one thing missing here. While being at lower levels may make PCs more balanced against enemies, it makes them less balanced against themselves. If natural endgame level is 50, and you have to take PCs at 30, well, those stats aren't very representative of themselves against each other, since you're going to be 50 at the end. You also get cases where they can't use stuff they normally get at endgame because you decided to take lower levels.
There's also this fact: WHAT determines what levels you use? The right level is when an average attack does x% amount of the enemy's HP? Well then. Let x = 40 and you have DL-scaling... at weirded out levels. Levels that are not very representative of the characters.
I don't know. Using levels other than natural endgame levels strikes me as... INCREDIBLY unintuitive. I don't see the logic there at all.
(Also lol to the fact that you can be overlevelled by skipping every random and only fighting bosses. Are you serious?)
There's nothing wrong with trying to use a different view. It's just that... this one has many, many problems, which have been pointed out repeatedly.
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You're entitled to hold whatever scaling you would like. But this method just seems to bring a lot more problems than it attempts to solve. You end up having to take a look at a case by case for LOTS of games. You get lots more arbitrary situations. If you can somehow find a way to define it all in one piece though, be everyone's guest! People in DL have different ways of scaling/interpreting things. But we're pointing out that the method you're proposing is only going to lead to more work, confusion and disagreement. Set the kill point higher/lower if you don't like it!
I imagine when the concept of PCHP was developed, a lot of work went into making stat topics that revolved around it. It's an arbitrary way to balance PCs. Taking PCs at an appropriate level for endgame enemy HP might take just as much work to document as all the current stat topics have taken. However, taking PCs' damage against enemy HP reflects how bosses are viewed in the DL as well, so I would prefer this scaling method as it differentiates between PCs and bosses less.
Regardless of the work it would take, it's still a valid, balanced view to hold for scaling, and I think it's more intuitive overall than the arbitrary 2.5 average damage kill point of PCHP.
I'm not saying I won't eventually fall in line with everyone else and go with what the documentation uses - I probably will since it's less work for me. But I would prefer if I could use my method of scaling.
-Djinn
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I'll throw in that it also feels fairly unintuitive in comparison. It would set a lot more arbitrary numbers to not really change much of anything at all in the end. In fact, no matter what percentage of enemy damage you set as "normal" it would be equivalent to simply scaling damage comparative to the rest of the cast against something other than 2.5X. There really isn't any difference at all, except that you have to screw with levels, denying characters skills that they should by all rights have by the end of the game.
Of course, Grandia is the extreme case, because regardless of what the creators intended they failed miserably at it, and what you're suggesting is kinda counter-intuitive to the idea of trying to make characters more as they are in game. The failure of what the creators intended is what any average player experiences, and even LLG games would be incredibly sad. You can have the lowest level possible allowed by some games and STILL destroy end game randoms at a whim in rare cases, so what then? Give the characters negative levels?
If you still want to go for it, then go ahead, but it really feels like it would be so much more complicated for almost no real difference from just taking a different multiplier for PCHP.
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You can use whatever view you like, but take a second and step back and just look at it for a minute. It really doesn't look as balanced to me as it seems to be for you. What do you do with PCs from games with frail enemies and level-based skills, then? WA4 as an example again. If you lower their levels arbitrarily to set up your scaling, what do you do about the skills they're now forfeiting? (Or the HP/MP, in this case, but you see my point.) Also, when you think about it, what you're doing isn't all that much different than the 2.5x average version anyway. You're still assigning an arbitrary durability value, just in your case you're rearranging the game mechanics to set it, which has to be done on a game by game basis and has several problems that have to be worked out depending on the game in question. The 2.5x average damage version is still arbitrary, yes, but it's consistent. No offense, but I don't see any way you can get consistency from your version without a hell of a lot more work than any match in the DL would ever be worth.
Ninja'd by Ultra saying pretty much the same thing, but there you go. <_<
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Also, there are games where enemy levels scale up with PC levels, so no amount of levelling you do will adjust PC damage to the exact level you desire.
I can think of one srpg that combines this with an extremely low damage rate both ways, to the point where 8-10HKOs are the norm aside from a very few attacks, most of which require either support or a lot of turns to use and all of whom are DL non-factors.
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Another thing. You're only doing this for damage? Why not for PC durability too? WA4 PCs for frail (even MORE frail because they need to be low level to not overkill the enemies). Grandia PCs for durable. Oh. How about speed? WA4 PCs for slow and frail (same note applies). Grandia PCs for... well just durable I guess.
I mean, if you do it for damage, you might as well do it for durability and speed and whatever else. And in that case, sometimes there's NO way to find a good level to use. Take WA4. Too high and you overkill everything. Too low and you just get overkilled by everything and are slow (oh and you still probably overkill everything anyways). Actually, the PCs at endgame levels are slower on average than endgame enemies. What about that?
Regardless of the work it would take, it's still a valid, balanced view to hold for scaling, and I think it's more intuitive overall than the arbitrary 2.5 average damage kill point of PCHP.
Valid? I guess. If you're consistent. Though the method itself seems somewhat inconsistent. Inconsistent views are not valid. But I'm not going to bother arguing that.
Balanced? No. It's not balanced. And we've pointed out over and over why it's not.
Intuitive? Also not. I explained why. Other people explained why as well. Did you read them?
Oh yeah, and if you want to differentiate between PCs and bosses less? Take PCs against bosses. That'll go over well.
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...well, whatever, I had thought it sounded good in theory.
In my defense, it really does seem intuitive to me to take characters' damage the way it is in-game: against endgame enemies' HP. After all, if I remember the character as being useful enough to OHKO most randoms in-game, it would make sense to transfer that to the DL, only taking the opponent's relative durability in account. Additionally, this is quite clearly how bosses are viewed in the DL, so I had thought it natural to take PCs the same way.
When this idea was challenged because 'endgame enemies fail', my kneejerk reaction was that characters are simply overlevelled - and in many RPGs, this method could work.
What I failed to understand was the sheer number of RPGs where 'endgame enemies fail' - thus destroying balance and consistency. I had thought this could be remedied for a few games by artificially lowering level, but apparently not. There may be some natural way to remedy this problem, but I can't think of it.
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As for taking characters' speed and durability this way... didn't Snow mention that the DL already does this?
-Djinn
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The DL does this in the sense that we use enemy stats in testing - i.e. how much damage does the party deal to average endgame enemies, and such. Also makes sense to have enemy averages for hindsight when you have formulas handy. The characters' evasion/accuracy stats are taken against the enemy accuracy/evasion averages, for an example. They're used to gauge many different things (and, in some cases, boss stats may be used instead for a less failure sample. In FE, for an example, taking only the grunts' average stats, you have say Lyn with nearly 100% evade, and basically everybody dodges a lot). Just doing so for straight damage isn't viable. But their stats are taken into account in that sense.
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I imagine when the concept of PCHP was developed, a lot of work went into making stat topics that revolved around it. It's an arbitrary way to balance PCs. Taking PCs at an appropriate level for endgame enemy HP might take just as much work to document as all the current stat topics have taken. However, taking PCs' damage against enemy HP reflects how bosses are viewed in the DL as well, so I would prefer this scaling method as it differentiates between PCs and bosses less.
Uh...stat topics and the idea of PC HP aren't linked at all except in damage averages. Stat topics are taken at what the topic maker considers to be end game without over or underlevelling. They were made this way long before we really starting nailing down damages.
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...well, whatever, I had thought it sounded good in theory.
In my defense, it really does seem intuitive to me to take characters' damage the way it is in-game: against endgame enemies' HP. After all, if I remember the character as being useful enough to OHKO most randoms in-game, it would make sense to transfer that to the DL, only taking the opponent's relative durability in account. Additionally, this is quite clearly how bosses are viewed in the DL, so I had thought it natural to take PCs the same way.
Well yes. Lots of things sound good in theory, but don't end up well at all in practice. I've had several such ideas and... yeah, they didn't work out so well. The DL "standards" are there because they tend to work. Not always, and you can find holes in them (those holes tend to be where a lot of people differ in views), but for the most part, they tend to strike a good balance between intuitive and fair.
Of course, this doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but just understand that it didn't just come out of nowhere. It's there because it works.
Also, next time you get a new idea that seems really awesome? Try and figure out why it's not awesome. And if there are flaws (well there's always flaws, but if there's big ones), then try and fix them. If that makes things worse, then, well, the idea's not going to work so well.
That's pretty much what happened in this case. Seemed like an awesome idea, but there were things wrong with it, and trying to fix those made matters only worse.
What I failed to understand was the sheer number of RPGs where 'endgame enemies fail' - thus destroying balance and consistency. I had thought this could be remedied for a few games by artificially lowering level, but apparently not. There may be some natural way to remedy this problem, but I can't think of it.
Well, as Snow said, we do compare characters to endgame enemies, but also to the other PCs. Basically, we see how much damage the PCs do to the enemies, and then compare that damage to the rest of the cast. I mean, if enemies tend to have a lot of physical defense and little magical defense? Then the mages are going to be higher on the damage chart, just as they are in-game. If enemies have lots of both defenses? People with defense ignoring attacks are going to be better off. If they have high evade? People with great accuracy are better. And so on.
It's not that we completely ignore how the PCs do against the enemies of the game, it's just that we measure how effective they are to enemies in the game compared to the rest of the cast. It sounds long and convoluted, but it's actually simpler than it first seems.
As for taking characters' speed and durability this way... didn't Snow mention that the DL already does this?
In what way? Against endgame enemies? Not in the case of speed, no. For durability, somewhat. But just like damage, it's also compared to the rest of the cast.
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Thank you Tallychu~
So ... she's borderline OHKO to average P Dur with her short X - Faerie Friend X - Faerie Friend O > Faerie Friend X combo -
Posting this in case it'll be helpful to people -
From OK -
99 Fury HP Damages: 31794
1) Peppita - 58711 (Short X-Fairie Friend X 125%-Fairie Friend O 175%-Fairie Friend X 225%) [9% HP loss]
2) Nel - 42240 (Short X-Divine Wrath X 125%-Divine Wrath O 175%) [17% HP loss]
3) Maria - 42112 (Short X-Energy Burst X 125%) [4% HP loss]
4) Cliff - 41305 (Short X-Max Shockwave X 125%-Max Shockwave O 175%) [16% HP loss]
5) Mirage - 35555 (Short X-Acrobat Locus X 125%-Triple Kick O 175%-Acrobat Locus X 225%) [13% HP loss]
6) Adray - 25702 (Short X-Emotion Torrent X 125%-Emotion Torrent O 175%-Emotion Torrent X 225%) [16% HP loss]
7) Fayt - 23026 (Short X-Side Kick X 125%-Side Kick O 175%-Side Kick X 225%-Side Kick O 300%) [12% HP loss]
8) Albel - 21827 (Short X-Double Slash of Fury X 125%) [Effectively 0% HP loss]
9) Roger - 17670 (Short X-Star Fall X 125%-Fiery Axe O 175%) [10% HP loss]
10) Sophia - 9791 (Short X-Southern Cross X 125%-Southern Cross O 175%) [9% MP loss]
Now those values are assuming no Berserk + max *hits* for *everyone*~
Let's see what happens by adding the values from powerdanced Faerie Friend (no Berserk) into the mix -
Short X (900~) - L1 Power Dance - Faerie Friend (7000 x 10 (max hits) = 70'000+ HP damage - 700~ x 10 = 7000~ MP damage)
Max Hits+ short X - 70'900~ HP 7000 ~ MP
9 Hit powderdanced Faerie Friend + short X- 63'900~ HP 6'300 MP
So she has two feasible OHKO points and definitely does if one assumes max hits for everybody.
*muses somemore* I wonder if Poco is 70% P Dur w/o equipping the Guard? *eyes Dyher* If equipping the Magic Book + Cureall instead of Mail + Guard then Peppita OHKO's even without Power Dance (OK's values)?
**
I think Peppita definitely has a strong case for an OKHO in a variety of/various ways. Whether people vote on that or not is up to them though.
I can see people going by average hits based on their in game experiences not just in this case but others if they want. If I were to take that route though I'd be comparing Peppita's damage from average hits to the average hits of the other PCs (for example in game people tend to use Maria at range and Scatter Beam has accuracy issues at range on smaller opponents. This means she's not getting 10 Hits with L10 Scatter Beam whilst at short range she'd get more hits against those opponents) and she'd still probably be above average as a damage dealer due to Power Dance + the high damage modifiers on Faerie Friend *shrugs* That's how it is in game for me anyway~
Fayt's Side Kick? - Has trouble in game connecting all three hits on an enemy smaller than a bus ;p
Cliff's Max Shockwave/Nel's Divine Wrath - Can knockdown which causes the rest of their hits to miss because the enemy is on the floor >.>
I could go on and on <.< Point is trying to figure out average hits for every character in this game would be massive psyducks and everyone would argue about it anyway due to each individual having a different in game experience. So in my book for the DL the characters either have max hits or 0 hits and we all sit down and drink our damn tea ^_^
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Whilst people are on the subject of airing grieviences over how the DL works well from my point of view it sometimes bothers me how non unique armour with factors are allowed whilst accessories *hides* aren't. Like how in SO3 some characters are allowed elemental resist armours when those armours are as hard as hell to get in game (20%~ chance of being made) but Roger/Peppita/Sophia aren't allowed elemental resist accessories which they can make for themself at a far higher rate >_____> It's been niggling at me too how stat boosts work. I thought people didn't allowed stat boosting equipment in the DL yet Poco's Magic Book raises his MAG stat. I also thought that as a rule people didn't allow storebought accessories that block all statuses either. Maybe I've been picking that up wrong though~
I was being silly before about Tri Emblems being legal because they have ID protection since they are post game but main game Peppita can equip storebought Clone Generators or the Magebane Ankh (30% damage negate by magic users), what do you mean no accessories, she can synth them to her weapon! :P
Anyway thanks to anybody that's been explaining this stuff to me (Pyro, Tai), I appreciate it.
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Of course, this doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but just understand that it didn't just come out of nowhere. It's there because it works.
Also, next time you get a new idea that seems really awesome? Try and figure out why it's not awesome. And if there are flaws (well there's always flaws, but if there's big ones), then try and fix them. If that makes things worse, then, well, the idea's not going to work so well.
Well, unfortunately I don't have any kind of access to chat because Japan hates IRC, so I don't really have any way to check my ideas besides discussing them on the board.
It's not that I have any innate problem with the normal DL views, but I definitely think I hold a lot views that are different from the norm. Part of this is that I'm still trying to peg down what -all- of my views are considering the number of different game systems that I'm trying to force to adhere to a single system and I'm still relatively new at it. For some games, one view seems appropriate, but for others the same view skews things wildly. Trying to find the view that seems 'fair' is difficult and doesn't always seem to fall in line with the standard DL methods. But I guess this is what everyone is doing...
Still... there are a lot of differing views that I'd like to 'try out' that I imagine would have a lot of opposition in the DL but that seem reasonable to me (I honestly thought more people would kill me for the 'Full Limit Meter' view...). Maybe someone would volunteer to be my sounding board sometime to shoot down the more 'imaginative' ones? Could avoid more 2-page discussions taking up space on the board...
-Djinn
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Full limit meter is an older idea that a few people do use, if I remember right. They're just not that loud about it.
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Personally I do allow full or partial limit meter/full stock bars/dragoon tranform bars - LoD characters start with 200 SP to me - myself.
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Clear Tranquil: If you allow Berserk and max hits, etc., then the damage average is going to go up and Peppita STILL isn't going to OHKO. Yes, she has a borderline OHKO on the current average but that's not using things you're allowing.
It's not that I have any innate problem with the normal DL views, but I definitely think I hold a lot views that are different from the norm. Part of this is that I'm still trying to peg down what -all- of my views are considering the number of different game systems that I'm trying to force to adhere to a single system and I'm still relatively new at it. For some games, one view seems appropriate, but for others the same view skews things wildly. Trying to find the view that seems 'fair' is difficult and doesn't always seem to fall in line with the standard DL methods. But I guess this is what everyone is doing...
You're wrong. I don't think anyone follows what is considered "standard" completely. Personally, I kind of view it as a guideline, and change parts of it that I disagree with.
Still... there are a lot of differing views that I'd like to 'try out' that I imagine would have a lot of opposition in the DL but that seem reasonable to me (I honestly thought more people would kill me for the 'Full Limit Meter' view...).
Well, I allow half-filled limit meters myself. I think a few others do as well. Full seems kind of excessive to me, while half is much more reasonable.
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Umm CT wasn't allowing for Berserk just Power Dance ...
It doesn't change the damage average at all because nobody else *has* Power Dance. The current damage average remains the same and nobody else's damage changes. It changes nothing but Peppita's enhanced damage compared to her previous damage~
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And Peppita's own damage changes the average, considering you can chain Power Dance into other stuff. She can't effectively do that sort of chaining without Berserk anyway, and if you're allowing Berserk for one character, you have to allow it for them all (they all get it), which switches averages around anyhow.
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*psyducks*
Eh ... your right, to get a proper picture of it damages would have to be taken from Peppita chaining Power Dance without Berserk into all her other battle skills. I honestly don't think that without Berserk she'd get anything else above 31'000 (not everything has as high base damage modifiers as Faerie Friend >.>) or whatever the exact average was but I suppose it would screw with the damages of characters who fail to hit that average in the first place. Thanks Snow~
I'll agree that for the most part that she can't effectively do Power Dance chaining without Berserk. What I am saying is that in this case she doesn't have to.
OK's combo is 99 Fury short X - Faerie Friend X - Faerie Friend O - Faerie Friend X - No Berserk
The combo I'm allowing for is 99 Fury - short X - Power Dance > Faerie Friend O - No Berserk
With this she hits 70'000+ instead of her previous 58'000+ damage. It just so happens that Power Dance is a better short X battle skill for her than any other skill especially combined with that of her maingame battleskills with the highest base damage modifier (150% HP ph 15% MP ph) Yes it's that good.
Power Dance is only 16 Fury. It works with one Faerie Friend just fine here. That's all she needs >_> I can see what you mean by it not being the most efficient use of Power Dance as applies to her in game but ummm doesn't that apply to everyone else's DL combos? <_< I will take what you said about her other powerdanced skills possibly screwing up the average in mind though. Though it wouldn't surprise me if she still managed to do close to 2HKO to any new averages due to the explosive combination of buffery goodness that is Power Dance with the high damage modifiers of Faerie Friend. Just saying~ That's why I think it's all she needs for this match >.>
I'm not going to allow Berserk for Peppita or Nel or Maria or anyone ever again when it comes to voting in the DL (only for Neph's dungeon) Tal and this topic have taught me how much simplier things are not just for SO3 but for all games to have a kill point and how average damage is 40 to average P Dur, what 1.5 to that is and how borderline OHKOs and 2HKOs etc, are worked out from that. It's a lot simplier for me to get my head around even with still allowing that. I'm only allowing that alone now. I'll post some other powerdanced values in the Peppita wiki or something in the future. I have them already but those are L10 Power Dance and L10 skills >.> I'm not going to be allowing L10 Power Dance for DL voting purproses either from now on.
Eh I give up now. Me sad panda.
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I don't remember SO3 well enough to know why L10 battle skills -shouldn't- be allowed, anyone want to give me a rundown?
Also, more proof that PCHP needs to have its own post so that newbies can at least -hear- what it is and have the chance to accept it or not before blindly going through stat topics...
-Djinn
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Less that they aren't allowed, more that there aren't any figures for them yet. Can't make judgements/averages off of numbers you don't have.
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Pretty much what Uno says. I do allow Berserk to the entire cast myself, which means I don't take the figures in the averages we have literally, and I take the averages a bit higher. We had figures with Berserk, but they were lost to the madness of SO3 stat topicing and the forums insanity, IIRC.
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Oh, sorry. I thought those numbers were with Berserk.
And allow Berserk/L10 Power Dance if you want. Just use averages that include those kinds of damages and it'll be fine. Just don't be surprised if other people don't agree with you. >.>
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Yeah, allowing L10 skills is a bit of a matter of personal taste. People's opinions -will- vary on it, regardless.
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STruth. Not allowing L10 Scatter Beam is just silly though :P Maria gets nerfed without it >_>
Oh, sorry. I thought those numbers were with Berserk.
NP Tal *^_^*
And allow Berserk/L10 Power Dance if you want.
Thanks~
Just use averages that include those kinds of damages and it'll be fine.
NP - Yeah I do compare her damage against other characters, if she is using Berserk or L10 skills or both then so are they yeah. They're not using Power Dance though whether it be low level or nay =-)
Just don't be surprised if other people don't agree with you. >.>
<.<
Yeah well it is kind of surprising to see such a small figure pack such a hefty punch as Solon the arena administrator says about Peppita!
Allowing Berserk is evil though, baaad Snow ;p Peppita hits 300'000+ with short X > Power Dance > Faerie Friend > PD > FF > PD >FF >____> She'd probably break 500'000 with L10 Power Dance too <_____<
Testing (no Berserk) -
Short X > Power Dance > Magic Hook - 11'000~ x 2 = 22'000
Short X - Power Dance > Kaboom - 4'500~ x 7~ = 31'000
Short X - Power Dance > Frozen Daggers - 5000~ x 4 = 20'000
Short X - Power Dance > Instanto Blast - 4'500 x 1 = 4'500 >.>
Mmm *muses* I think the only thing she comes close to changing the average is with Kaboom maybe?
Whether Peppita OHKOs/bordeline/2HKO with PD > FF against average depends on each individual's hit respect I guess. In game she has the chance of losing hits if the enemy is knocked down (same as Nel/Cliff's best moves), due to range inaccuracies (Maria) or if she is knocked out of the move. Since SO3 characters are forced to turn based in the DL those hit deciding factors don't usually matter, they should be getting max without them as non ARPG characters can't knock them out of their move or anything. That's just the way I see it though don't know if anyone agrees with me or not.
I want to apologise to any Poco fanatics who might have been offended by my gung ho attitude over this. At this point I've given up trying to change people's minds on Peppita, now I'm just enjoying a discussion =-)
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It's AtL - only two people actually care about it (and in different ways)