The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: superaielman on October 10, 2008, 03:48:25 PM
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Alright, here's the final barrier to what gets into the RPGDL. There's three questions...
1. Have you played this game?
2. Rank it?
3. Why not (if not)?
Some good reasons not to rank a game...
A. Not enough voters at the RPGDL.
B. Too hard to compare them to other RPG characters (assuming you've seen them that is).
C. Not interesting enough (i.e. boring in a duel and not much to write about them)
D. Other (please specify)
2/3 support (66.66...%) is needed for a game to be ranked. Each character in the game also needs 66%- IE if FE9 is ranked with 95% of the voters but only 15% support ranking Ashnard and the rest no/abstain on him, he won't be ranked.
The games this time:
Persona 3
Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness
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Persona 3
No
Yes
No to any form of the final boss, Aigis, Minato, Metis for now. No to any other boss, come to think of it.
Cloud of Darkness
No (Need to finish FF3)
Yes
I dislike ranking just a boss, but FF3's special. Considering the sales and popularity of the game, I can't see holding off on ranking the final boss for a theorical generic rank that isn't likely to ever happen.
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Persona 3
Yes
Yes
No to Minato and Metis. Minato because of Bluelike(He is only high Godlike for me, but apparently others give him access to both skill inheritance and personas above endgame levels, so). Metis because of lower playership. Maybe a FW depending on how P3 ends up doing. Yes to other PCs, Strega, Nyx.
Cloud of Darkness
No
Yes
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Persona 3
Yes
Yes
Rank PCs and Strega, No Full moon bosses, No Minato, no Metis for now. She's fine as a FW later if P3 does well. I have no problem with Final Boss: I've never encountered the Moonless Gown up/down in the same turn phenomenon that others have.
CoD
No
Yes
Seems fine, and it's just one character. I may play it eventually.
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Persona 3
Yes
Yes
The Journey PCs and Strega work~. No Minato/Metis/Nyxy, yes Aigis. (If the votesplit is significant at all, then why aren't we ranking Metis instead? Regardless, we have worse ranked so whatever~)
Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness
No
Sure, whatever~
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Persona 3
Played it.
Rank it.
No to Minato, Aigis, Nyx Avatar and Metis. Rank the rest of the PCs and Strega. Seems pretty straightforward.
FF3: CoD
Played it.
Rank her.
I'm almost a little hesitent to rank her now, considering the four before me just said "no" to the "have you played it" question. If that trend continues, I'll change my vote on ranking.
EDIT: Changed my mind on Aigis. She's getting a DNR from me right now.
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Persona 3
No
Yes
Rank Yukari, Junpei, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Koromaru, Ken, Shinjiro, Chidori. No to anyone else.
EDIT: Abstain on Jin/Takaya. Chidori is too awesome on paper not to say yes to.
Cloud of Darkness
No
Yes
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Answers are the same for both:
1. No.
2. Yes.
No to the P3 main, abstain on all other individual rankings. (Except Cloud of Darkness, obviously)
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Persona 3
Yes played
Yes rank
All except Minato and Metis (yes I am yesing Nyx Avatar)
Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness
Yes played
Sure, why not, its got casual (FF3 did decent in not ranked for the generics)
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Persona 3
No
Yes
Much as I don't want to agree to this...there's no reason it shouldn't be ranked, apparently.
Edit: Oh, and no to the usual trio people are saying, which seem to be Minato, Nyx Avatar and Metis. Abstain on Aigis since she sounds Votesplit happy fun times due to FES, but not knowing enough about the game makes me unable to judge fairly.
Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness
Yes
Yes
See Super. Also, I know that some of these "no"s are people who played part of the game but never finished, but are also the kind of people who are more willing to finish the game if something gets ranked so...
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Persona 3
Yes.
Yes.
Rank Yukari, Junpei, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Ken, and Shinjiro. Abstain on Metis and Aigis. Hell no to Nyx Avatar (even if he doesn't use Moonless Gown on the same turn as it goes down he's still practically unbeatable). [For the record I think we should boot other infinite invincibility whores as well.] No to Minato for obvious reasons as well.
Rank Chidori, Jin, and Takaya for bosses I guess.
Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness
Yes.
No.
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Persona 3
Played It.
Rank It.
No Minato, no Nyx Avatar, no Metis. Yes PCs, yes Strega (Chidori/Jin/Takaya). Aigis ranked as The Journey only (ie no The Answer Godlike nonsense)
Final Fantasy III (Cloud of Darkness)
Played It.
Rank It.
Uh yeah.
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P3:
Yes
Yes
PCs + Strega... yes to Nyx Avatar. Abstain on Minato/Metis.
FW:
Yes
Yes
Go CoD, now representing 9 out of 10 Final Fantasies seen in Dissidia.
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P3
Yes
Yes
Rank everything. I don't think 'nigh impossible' is a valid reason to exclude something, we have plenty of those as it stands now anyway.
CoD
Yes
Yes
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P3: No, yes.
Do not rank Minato, Metis, or Nyx avatar.
EDIT: No Jin or Takaya either. Been convinced on P3 bosses by the arguments of Sage/Super. Chidori I'll keep as an abstain since she seems innocent enough.
FF3: Yes, yes.
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P3: No, No and I don't think it's ready.
Cloud of Darkness: A long time ago, abstain, don't care.
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P3: No, yes.
Do not rank Minato, Metis, or Nyx avatar.
FF3: Yes, yes.
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Minato because of Bluelike(He is only high Godlike for me, but apparently others give him access to both skill inheritance and personas above endgame levels, so).
As I understand it, skill inheritance isn't even the issue- just the fact that he either has Initiative like he does in game, and blows you away with 50something times average damage. I suppose if you take the initiative away, he can still set up for status immunity and auto-revival, so you can't one-turn him and then he asplodes you.
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P3
1. Yes
2. Yes
I'd support all non-Minato and Metis PCs and Strega. Still on the fence about Nyx Avatar, though leaning yes given past judgments on invincibility tricks. Minato is obviously bluelike in too many ways to too many people.
CoD
1. No
2. Yes
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I covered that as well. Armageddon is past end-game levels for me.
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P3
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No to Aigis, Metis, Minato, Nyx and Strega members. Yes to everyone else. Uh...do people really think that Aigis is ready with that vote split and no actual notes on the split?
CoD
1. No
2. Yes.
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Well, I'd been operating under the assumption that Aigis could and should be ranked as The Journey only. Probably ought to note that though.
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I thought that almost nobody had actually played The Answer. At least, that is the impression I was given in chat a while back. (Something about "P3 with all of the good parts taken out") As such, if there is votesplit, it should only be with a very few people, and some of them will probably vote based on her ranked form anyway. Probably less of one than CoD, really.
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The Answer is pretty decently played (Probably at least half the P3 players on the board)? Now if these games had say different numbers, it might be a different story, but all some casual voters might see is that Persona 3 next to her.
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...wait, WA5 didn't make it? ...wow.
Persona 3
Rank. Rank. Rank.
To rank: Minato Arisato, Junpei Iori, Yukari Takeba, Akihiko Sanada, Mitsuru Kirijo, Fuuka Yamagishi, Aigis, Koromaru, Ken Amada, Shinjiro Aragaki, Jin, Takaya, Chidori, Ryoji (Nyx Avatar).
Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness
Eh...I say abstain here.
A bit odd, but I think I'll stand by what I said in the last topic. There's...a good deal of votesplit on her, depending on the form. It's odd to rank just the boss and not the PCs when there are PCs to rank (I've heard people say this about FF5...for the record, I do support ranking the FF5 PCs). She's boring as sin too...and not a Godlike (well, to me with just the NES form! DS form is a Godlike the way I look at it, but...). I do not feel Cloud of Darkness would be bad ranked, but...there's so little plot there (...Zande summons a naked cloud to destroy the world...), it makes me think of Necron. It's adding another Middle/Heavy boss with votesplit (ranking may vary, blah blah) without anything else from the game. The boss is also boring as sin on that votesplit. I just...I don't feel the ranking would hurt, as the draw is good and there's interest there, but...well, what I said above.
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Well, I'd been operating under the assumption that Aigis could and should be ranked as The Journey only. Probably ought to note that though.
For some people (like myself), that doesn't matter anyways. I vote on FE10 forms afterall. However, I haven't played The Answer yet, though, that reminds me, I should do that this week. Now's the best time to do it if any. I'm already like halfway through or something.
Going to change to abstain on Aigis regardless though.
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Persona 3:
Played - Yes
Rank - Yes
Characters - No Minato, no Metis, yes NA, yes other PCs/Strega.
Cloud of Darkness:
Played - Yes
Rank - Yes. I don't think the vote split is that huge an ìssue, and I can't see any other valid reason not to.
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Persona 3:
No, though I have a copy.
Yes, as a game.
No to Minato. No to any bosses-historically, Persona bosses have done less than stellarly, and the most standout boss from what I've heard people talk in general is a table. (I might be talked into this.) No to any FES-only stuff. No to Aigis, who I gather has a FES split. (Not that I suspect the last will matter as a vote.) Yes to everyone else.
Yeah, that's a lot of Nos, but eh. Better safe than sorry, I want to be able to say I told you so. <_< >_>
FF3 FW Cloud of Darkness:
Yes, both versions.
Yes.
Ehhhh, worst that can happen is a weird votesplit between Godlike and...Godlike of really scrubby calibur, and those are less unrankable and annoying and more entertaining. We need more unpredictability in the DL(without stupid robberies). <_< Recent, finally has art, etc. Shiny.
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Persona 3
1. No
2. Yes
Cloud of Darkness
1. Yes
2. Yes
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Persona 3:
Yes
Yes
Yes to all PCs except Minato and Metis(no to them, to be clear), yes to Strega, no to Nyx Avatar. I'm unsure on Aigis, doesn't help that I only played the beginning of the answer since I haven't really been in the mood for forced hard mode SMT. Uh, I'll say yes for now, and ask if it's possible to rank this as Persona 3: The Journey officially? That would avoid most of the headaches. There's still people that'll vote on the Answer form, but there's people who vote on Optional Superboss Mint and such, so whatever.
CoD
Played, didn't finish.
Abstain
Don't know enough about the character to make an informed decision here, though I would like to see people discuss the votesplit more if it's as bad as OK claims, or if not to just smack him if he deserves it, would be good for the rest of us to know. <_<
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P3
1. No, but (and say it all together now, you know it's coming) I own it and will play it eventually.
2. Yes
3. I'm assuming there are no interp issues among the PCs that have been floated, but I'm not convinced that there's going to be a huge outside-of-group draw. But come on, it's me. Since when has votedraw been an issue for me ranking anything? (Rank FFMQ!)
CoD
1. Yes, but FF3NES only. Am playing 3DS.
2. Yes
3. Why not?
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Okay.
*smacks OK* Cloud of Darkness' votesplit is not that bad.
I'm not sure exactly where the NES form falls. High 3HKO damage, but the durability is excellent (only about 1.6 raw PCHP, but above average defence + takes a third off of magic + insane evade + resisting all elements). Way too much durability-related spoiling for Middle, definitely belongs in Heavy but could beat some Godlikes. Also not worried at all about casual respect because the NES version is generally regarded a bitch in-game. She's pretty similar to Zeromus, come to think of it, another FF final boss with objectively underwhelming offence who uses it pretty well in-game and tends to do fine for respect as a result.
Most voters are, I think, DS (simply because most players of the NES version picked up the DS version as well, and the DS version also attracted new, non-emulation players). For them, she's Godlike without much question, enough that I have no doubts she'll end up ranked there. So suffice to say, I think we'll have a case of a Godlike boss whom a few people see as only Heavy. Which is... not at all unusual for a Godlike boss. (Downgrade, Dhoulmagus. Downgrade, Lamington. Downgrade, Jecht. Downgrade... okay I've made my point.)
(Also, on a *punt OK* note, since really, such puntings are all the rage: Minato pretty clearly has more votesplit than Cloud, and you're supporting him. VP2 Lezard has pretty much the most votesplit of any character ranked in recent memory, and you supported him. C'mon, show some consistency.)
EDIT: And while someone like Meeple who pays more attention to FF3 plot than me can rant on this more, Cloud of Darkness is mentioned long before Necron and has substantially more plot. I'm also certain she has more lines than any other FF3 villain (which is not impressive, but hey <_<). The fact that she was picked for Dissidia rather than Xande (unlike Kuja who got in over Necron) pretty much shows that she's the most recognisable face of the villain cast.
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Cloud of Darkness? She's...not a Necron, no.
She's more like Beatrice, except executed so much worse (Shock; NES plot and writing vs. Early PS2 plot and writing!)
If you actually think about Xande's goals and what he does...something definitely doesn't make any sense. Why would he want to destroy everything when he already DID stop time, thereby, gotten his pseudo-immortality? When you think about it...doesn't make sense. Cloud of Darkness being another behind the scenes figure manipulating Xande suddenly explains everything.
She even has back story, being the same threat that existed 1000 years prior with the Flood of Light (despite her name, she's *NOT* a being of Darkness, but a being of the Void; the Dark Warriors state they fought her off 1000 years prior, and say that neither Light nor Darkness can beat her, but only both combined)
And...there's a grand total of one villain in FF3 who has more lines than Cloud of Darkness and that's Gutsco...who thinking on it, is a better rank that Xande anyway. More scenes, and his fight is so much more memorable, at least in the Salamander Form.
But yeah, Cloud of Darkness is clearly much bigger than Necron, Necron being an arbitrary boss pulled out of their ass only so Kuja's plot could make sense (ie how he reforms and saves your team.) Cloud of Darkness has enough plot, for all that you learn 90% of it in the final dungeon alone, its still there.
Edit: Oh, the Dissidia thing is relevant for two reasons. One is the Art aspect, which was basically the one thing keeping her from being ranked; now taht she has decent usable art, there's nothing holding her back, objectively, from a ranking.
It also proved that people DO remember her, since why would they put a forgettable nobody like her into a fanservice game commemorating 20 years of Final Fantasy? I'm sure if people gave a shit about Xande, they'd have chosen him over her...but they don't, yet CoD does get respect as one of the best final bosses in the series...in BOTH versions.
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Persona 3: No, Yes but No to the usual suspects. Rank Aigis as specifically the Journey if at all.
FF3: Yes, Yes.
Slightly off topic, but Re: Meeplelard's CoD FF3 plot hype... yes, Cloud of Darkness deserves credit for Xande's actions during the course of the game as opposed to his pre-history, just like Ultimecia gets credits for possessed Edea's actions (which some people miss when complaining neither does anything). Unfortunately by "credit" I mean "blame" here, since Xande being a generic world-destroyer-with-vast-buckets-o'-darkness is lame. Basically they changed an independent villain with an interesting agenda into a generic flunky "rargh" who does bad things, and explained it by saying he got corrupted by the CoD's darkness.
Xande, despite his lack of lines, is still the most interesting villain in FF3, even if all his development is done by others and in terms of relating his past actions. Cloud of Darkness is, however, the most relevant villain and the "big" one, even if she was shoving out a better choice.
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Persona 3-
1) Yes
2) Yes
Rank- Mitsuru, Akihiho, Koromaru, Ken, Yukari, Junpei, Shinjiro, Aegis, Jin, Chidori, Takaya
DNR- Minato
Abstain- Nyx Avatar - Till I puzzle out whether or not there is a way to outfox Moonless Gown hax~
Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness
1) No
2) No
RANK FUUKA!!!
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Actually... I -am- a little curious how people feel about a Fuuka joke rank... I mean... she -does- have stats!
-Djinn
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I feel like subjecting everyone who suggests it to a Hydlide/Dragon Slayer/Hoshigami marathon. While forcibly bound to Shion Uzuki.
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Persona 3
Played it
Rank all PCs except for Minato (duh). Abstain on Strega bosses and Metis (FW her is probably a better idea any how at a later date). A Will Smith Hell No to Nyx.
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What is this "interesting agenda" Xande has?
To become immortal cause he's going to die? You mean something he did...before the game began? You mean something can pretty much half the DBZ villains try for of whom rarely get hype by anyone serious attempt too? I'm really not seeing it. At least Cloud of Darkness had this extra angle of "She's not a being of Light or Darkness, therefor, you can't beat her with either alone." So few games, even now a days, let alone when FF3 was made, actually come out and say "The Power of Darkness is good to you know!"
Regarding Xande's supposed development? Its based off two lines in the entire game; TWO FREAKING LINES. They are:
Doga: Unei was given a dream world, I was given knowledge and magic, and Xande was given the gift of life as a human!
Unei: Xande's gift of mortality was the greatest of the three, but he couldn't understand this.
That's pretty much all we learn about Xande's back story from what I recall. The whole "He went insane and wanted to stop time!" is analysis that the game doesn't tell you about, from what I honestly remember playing the game numerous times.
You know what? Xande is basically a really horribly done Kuja in the grand scheme of things. Kuja worked cause a villain like that kind of needs presence to work. You kind of need to meet a character to fully grasp who they are, their own agendas, and see their breaking point in action. Kuja worked cause for 90% of the game he's this high class, aristocratic, evil bastard...then he learns a simple fact that he's going to die and suddenly he breaks down and we see what kind of person he REALLY is (ie equivalent to a naive child, DESPITE how he was acting before.) Xande being a mere "sit on throne twiddling thumbs, throwing minions at everyone" completely fails to make any sort of use of this breaking point character.
For reference, Sephiroth too is a failure in this regard; he too had a breaking point but...we see so little about him, and what made him go insane felt so forced (where as Garland tossed hints at us that Kuja always had this massive inferiority complex, and we've seen he can get irrational when he's angry, so it was in character), Sephiroth...it says something that his insanity session was so...abrupt, that even Crisis Core with its attempt to build a character out of sane Sephiroth and fill in some holes in FF7's plot STILL failed to make the insanity session make sense (Crisis Core in general avoided Retcons)
...if I'm derailing the topic, then yeah, I can see making a whole new one. But I just had to get this off my chest, I apologize.
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Persona 3:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. PCs, Strega. No to anything else.
CoD:
1. Yes
2. Yes
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I'll split the topic if Snowfire/anyone else wants to respond. (Just post your full response here if you do.)
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P3:
1. No
2. N/A
3. Blah
CoD:
1. Yes, to both
2. Yes
3. See Meeple
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P3:
1) Yes
2) Yes
DNR: Minato
Rank: PCs except ^, Strega
Abstain: NA
FF3FW:CoD
1) Partially
2) Yes
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The votesplit is partially how I see her, to be fair (High Middle/Low Heavy vs. what looks to be a decent Godlike fro NES/DS form). I'm mostly trying to present a case for not ranking, her, though I think the reservations are there. It might be as bad as you say for people with normal views, I will admit. So a mid Heavy to Low Godlike isn't as bad as the other way. There is going to be votesplit on her like with other people. Randomly, what is her evade/elemental resistance? How high is the defense and magic (you said 1/3 magic, so that's ok). Not like you use this stuff in the NES version (Bahamut and shuriken nukings ahoy, or Onion Knight attacks). That probably does push the NES form up to a Heavy version. Still has weakish durability.
In terms of plot...I odn't remember any of that from FF3 NES <_< Except for the Dorga and Unne lines Meeple posted. I had remembered it as Xande summon a Cloud to Destroy the world because he was pissed off at his rewards, and the Cloud going crazy after he was killed. Apparently, FF3 plot is not strong with me. I didn't remember it being talked about until after killing/fighting Xande.
Consistency? You know I'm big on plot importance being important for ranking, as well as characterness. Minato is the main character of the game and has *spoilers* going for him as well. He's also, indirectly, the reason The Answer exists (actually, more directly than indirect, but *spoilers*). Votesplit combat-wise is Godlike vs. Godlike (depending on if you see him with initiative...I don't know many people do, I don't think I do myself). He's either unbeatable Godlike that way (people won't rank him), or a solid Godlike that dies if you kill him first. So his only ranking here is Godlike. Lezard already had votesplit before VP2, and is still important to the plot. Would definitely be odd not to rank him. Cloud of Darkness is the final boss, but she is a bit less plot exposured-y than those two.
Combat-wise, I agree, she's a better rank since there's less votesplit in that area than Lezard (Minato...). As I said, she's not a bad rank in terms of vote-draw/demand. She's great for that. Just she's boring as sin (NES form, again), and it feels weird to rank just one boss when there are other rankable bosses (Xande, Dorga, Unne). I understand she was the only one chosen for FWness, and people are bigger on her, so that's the group view and fine with me. *shrugs* An alternatve view.
DNR was probably a bit too harsh from what I was trying to get across - abstain more what I was thinking. Don't know why I didn't use that earlier. As I said, not a bad rank, but there are other thoughts I'm concerned with.
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As for Aigis votesplit:
She's Minato with better HP, worse SP, and no fusions, with the same variety as he has in Fes (which...is just a lot more stuff, mostly). Damage goes down a bit (5-10% maybe). She's otherwise pretty similar. The difference is her section is...rougher, since you don't have the compendium
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So she just has big time form split based on the game?
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Persona 3
Played it.
Rank it.
Characters: Rank Junpei, Yukari, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Aigis(Journey form only), Ken, Shinjiro, Koromaru, Chidori, Jin, Takaya
DNR Minato, Metis, Nyx Avatar(who can play around in NR Godlike for all I care)
FF3--Cloud of Darkness
Haven't played either iteration. Abstaining.
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Persona 3
1. No.
2. Yes.
Rank Koromaru, Junpei, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Shinjiro, Yukari and Ken. No to everybody else (Aigis, Minato, Metis, Nyx, Strega bosses). Minato is Bluelike, which makes him an auto-no. Aigis suffers from horrible votesplit of doom, and if the interpretations on a dueller can range into a two-division rift, I'd rather have him/her unranked (and, for the record, Lezard would certainly qualify to me, but this isn't a discussion for this topic and almost two years too late), Metis would be trusting in FES, which is even shakier than P3 in my eyes. As for the bosses, Sage makes a good point about SMT bosses in the DL, and while DDS sorta builds an exception in that front, I'd rather not get trigger-happy with a game I'm not entirely comfortable with in the DL. Nyx hype can die - from the sounds of it, she's Nega Filgaia with Moonless Gown, and if Nega Filgaia, who -lacks- the Moonless Gown stupid, is a Bluelike as is, Nyx can only be worse.
Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
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Persona 3:
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
Rank... Junpei, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Yukari, Ken, Koromaru, Aigis, Chidori, Shinji... abstain on everything else. I'm not opposed to the two other Strega bosses but they are a bit of a headache to rank. Chidori is easy to rank! Get thee to Light.
Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness
1. No.
2. Abstain. I'd rather just not think about this. On the one hand its apparently fairly well played, on the other its really *really* old and the re-release is on the DS, which many may not own. Looks like she's getting in anyway and thats fine too.
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As far as FF3(DS) Plot is concerned, from what I gathered from in-dungeon convo with Unei, Xande was frozen in time along with the rest of the lower world. So, the scheme to stop time didn't work from his perspective. So either he's trying it again (insane) or he's now set on destroying/conquering the world. Insane either way. Said in-game convo lends heavy credence to the CoD=Mastermind theory, which gives her plot cred.
Still, the "Does joo count teh tentaklez???///" issue needs to be considered, as about 90% of CoD's skill set comes from those appendages per the stats topic. At least it wouldn't DQ her if you don't, but that would likely take a ranking hit. Another source of possible interpret issues is whether or not the Dark Warriors' Blast has any in-battle scaling effect on her and, if so, how much? (Then again, if the latter makes her vunerbale, then we treat her like Zeromus. If she can die without it, it's technically unnecessary, though I can see how casuals could discount her along that line.)
That having been said, total abstain on both ballot initiatives. Maybe I'll finally get off my duff and get into Eureka once I get decent BB levels on Luneth and Ingus (What is "HP Spam?")
BTW, OK: PCs to Rank? Joo Kiddin Mii???!!!11
Item 1: PC Stats are tied to their Jobs! The only exception is HP, and that's dependent on Vitality at each individual level.
Item 2: FF5 has the same problem as above, but at least their PCs have a slight(0<x<1%) stat difference. From what I've seen, FF3 PCs don't even have that!
Item 3: FF5 PCs have a tenuous claim to the Elemental Crystals for their jobs. And, actually, I can make a similar case for FF3 based on the supposed affinities of the characters that would have FE-Support grades>C with each respective PC (Luneth = Aria = Water, Arc = Alus = Earth, Refia = Desch = Fire, Ingus = Sarah = Wind). But another way would match the attributes assigned by the Wizards with their FF5 Counterparts. And in that case, only Ingus would match (Wind). Luneth would be Fire in that case and Arc Water, which would leave Refia with Earth.
Other than that, the only forms the PCs can lend a shred of claim to come from the Intro Movie (Warrior, Black Mage, White Mage, Red Mage). (Maybe this is what OK is going for...) Fine for the First Half, but what about later Jobs? Or do we have them stay in Movie-Playthrough?
Ingus has a little better claim to Red Mage, as Sasune hypes its Red Mages. Fine! Red Mage Ingus gets thrown in with (Phoenix+Flame Shield)-Enhanced Locke! And that should be NR!
If we rank any of the good guys, I say that we rank Desch. At least he is with the party for a long time and has an individual skill set that doesn't match Kelvana's. (Alus was, what 1 optional dungeon? And I didn't see Sarah's Aero, or Cid's... well.. anything.) As for his stats, assume Freelancer with storebought gear from either Cannan or Ancient Village.
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1. As you said, Cloud of Darkness is assumed to have been blasted by the Warriors of Darkness before the fight, a la Crystal vs. Zeromus, Star Dragon Sword vs. Neclord, Psychowand vs. Zio, etc. Pretty strong precedent here and the alternative is she's just invincible, which is obviously unrankable.
2. Yeah, you have a pretty good summary of why FF3 individual PCs get a big ol' DNR.
3. The helper PCs are even less rankable, though - they have attacks, yes, but no HP, and generally do not function is normal characters in battle would. It's a situation more similar to that of XG Margie, who is more important plotwise than any FF3 helper, and from a bigger game, and in all versions of said game, and is still not ranked and considered unrankable by most. Heck, we didn't even rank Charmles, who is like the FF3 helpers except he actually has a win/loss condition from in-game.
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Changing to a no on all bosses for the moment. Persona games have not traditionally done well as boss ranks (See Sage), and it's something we could come back to later if demand's there without any problem. With the exception of a sounds unrankable final and a joke light it doesn't sound exciting either. Limiting the rank to the five-six core PC's is the way to go- they're the ones that seem to generate interest, and again we can come back later and add more as needed- which we will be doing for Metis/Aigis if they don't make it.
2. Abstain. I'd rather just not think about this. On the one hand its apparently fairly well played, on the other its really *really* old and the re-release is on the DS, which many may not own. Looks like she's getting in anyway and thats fine too.
DS has pretty good ownership in the DL and the group, which is one of the reasons I'm not too interested in trying the FF3 generics.
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Persona 3
Yes
Yes
No to Minato, Metis, and Nyx Avatar. Abstain on Aigis. Yes to the rest of the PCs and Strega.
Cloud of Darkness
No
Yes
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To elaborate about the DS, it's by far the best-owned current system in the DL. Now, granted, we have nothing ranked from it yet, so take that statement with a grain of salt, but yeah. I can't see standing against a game for that reason.
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The problem's more due to nothing being rankable from it, though it does have some nice remakes. Weird. But the remakes should have an impact. Hell, see DW4 not completely sucking this season compared to usual.
*Whaps P3 players* Any response to my comments/concerns about the bosses? If they're not all that notable, why not wait? If P3's at all a success we'll be back for some of the extra PC's anyway. And if it's not, ranking a few middle PC's is not a huge deal. I'm not confident enough about the game to say it merits a fairly heavy rank as of now.
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What do you want us to respond to? The only argument I really see against it is Sage's thing about how Persona bosses historically do badly, but then again, look at how Persona in general has done historically. Nate and Ellen have two games to draw from and still have mediocre drawing as I understand it, and Maya is just an odd case in general. I really don't see how an earlier ranking for a game with much less exposure has any sort of bearing at all on the rankings we're making this time around.
Besides, even including the three bosses, that brings us to what, ten ranks? Yukari, Junpei, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Ken, Koromaru, Aigis(maybe), Shinjiro, and the three Strega bosses. Sorry, eleven. And really, DL-wise the bosses are probably more interesting than the PCs are, since they don't crumple over and die when anyone with any damage they're weak against looks at them funny and Takaya at least has more variety.
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The P3 bosses should not be likened to Persona bosses (which...we have one example of from a long time ago), and more likened to DDS bosses, which...is also only one! But better. P3 is more on the level of DDS than P2 (much as I'd like to delude myself, P2 isn't great on a vote draw), far as I can see.
The bosses are very notable plotwise and are interesting gameplay-wise. Chidori is epic failure (but AWESOME), with fun plot associated with her. Jin is notable for the way he fights in his second form, and for tossing grenades around. Takaya is revolver Jesus with a chest. All 3 are pretty big and more than "not that notable". They're definitely memorable and interesting - really don't see much to comment on here otherwise. Really don't see a game as a "big rank" being a problem when you're ranking the important people.
Also, most people have been supporting the Strega bosses so far, and remembering names, so I can't see them as being too obscure or whatnot.
Also, you said you're no-ing all bosses, but still supporting Cloud of Darkness? Or did you mean just P3 bosses? It's not very clear, and is a bit weird >_>
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The problem's more due to nothing being rankable from it, though it does have some nice remakes. Weird. But the remakes should have an impact. Hell, see DW4 not completely sucking this season compared to usual.
*Whaps P3 players* Any response to my comments/concerns about the bosses? If they're not all that notable, why not wait? If P3's at all a success we'll be back for some of the extra PC's anyway. And if it's not, ranking a few middle PC's is not a huge deal. I'm not confident enough about the game to say it merits a fairly heavy rank as of now.
Not so sure on memorability of P3 bosses in general aside form a few of the tougher ones being memorable for that reason, but Chidori at least has a decent presence in the plot and definite memorability IMO. The rest of Strega doesn't stand out as much, especially the fairly boring Jin whose character seems to be "jerk who follows Evil Jesus around". Still, I know it doesn't matter as much given the console gen, but it has been on the top 10 PS2 boards for a long while now, beating out TotA and hovering around FFX, so I know plenty of people know about it among people who are into RPGs. Heck, P4 is already on the top 10, so the franchise is definitely building a presence.
I'd definitely support Chidori and Takaya for a rank myself, and I'd say yes to Jin as well if it looked like people here were ok with him. As far as Nyx, it's all how we take the invincibility cheese I guess.
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The problem's more due to nothing being rankable from it, though it does have some nice remakes. Weird. But the remakes should have an impact. Hell, see DW4 not completely sucking this season compared to usual.
If you mean "nothing being rankable" as in interp issues, that's dead wrong. If you mean "nothing being rankable" due to not playing the games, then that's kind of the whole point here. >.>
*Whaps P3 players* Any response to my comments/concerns about the bosses? If they're not all that notable, why not wait? If P3's at all a success we'll be back for some of the extra PC's anyway. And if it's not, ranking a few middle PC's is not a huge deal. I'm not confident enough about the game to say it merits a fairly heavy rank as of now.
Echoing the above. It seems the only argument here is "Persona bosses haven't done well in the DL." Well, "SMT bosses haven't done well in the DL" could've been applied to DDS and wasn't, so whatever. And as Yakumo said, Persona games haven't done well in the DL, so the distinction between the bosses and PCs here is kind of pointless.
And I think the bosses will at least end up in different divisions other than Middle, which is a bonus, since like the entire PC cast is Middle. >.>
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The problem's more due to nothing being rankable from it, though it does have some nice remakes. Weird. But the remakes should have an impact. Hell, see DW4 not completely sucking this season compared to usual.
If you mean "nothing being rankable" as in interp issues, that's dead wrong. If you mean "nothing being rankable" due to not playing the games, then that's kind of the whole point here. >.>
The big releases and successes in group are not rankable or are already ranked. FF3 was a huge smash hit, DW4's a square release, Pokemon is Pokemon. Some DS RPG's do have playership, just have other issues there. I'm sure we'll see something rankable from the console one of these days, maybe DW5.
And fair enough to the P3 thing.
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P3
Yes
Yes
Rank all but Minato, Aegis, Nyx
CoD
Yes
Yes
Though, still wonder how she got ahead of Xande?
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Xande isn't memorable/kinda boring? I mean, as far as I recall, he's just a fragile nuker, which means he's probably... just a heavy.
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I found Xande and CoD to be equally boring plot or combat. But in terms of the plot narration, Xande is more out there as a direct threat.
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The very fact that she was the one nommed, not him (and this was reflected in what, over a dozen different votes?), speaks to the fact that there is something about her that is much more memorable, at least to most of us.
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I'm going to go with: Even if all other things about CoD and Xande are equal... Dissidia + Boobs + Final Boss >>> Xande
Just me, though.
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I agree with Djinn. Much more of a reason to rank someone. Really, Xande has a naked blue chest. He's like a smurf - and smurfs aren't hot enough to be ranked.
Rank Tifa's boobs.
Granted, I'd still be up for adding Dorga, Unne, and Xande as ranks later, so...
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Its interesting to note that Xande has an even bigger interp split than CoD if you want to take that view point (for all that I suspect most vote on the FF3DS form.)
FF3DS has Meteor + Physical which...2HKOed on average? unsure if he can use Meteor above a certain HP threshold; he's also easy to 2-3 turn in game, without much twinking, which as Excal pointed out, Fragile nuker.
FF3o, he has 2HKO damage with Meteor, true! ...which he uses once every other turn. And he's certainly not durable either (if you have your Sages summon Bahamut everyturn instead of wasting time with Cure 4, its very easy to kill him before his 4th turn, ie his second action.) Basically, in practice, he's a 4HKOing boss with no variety whatsoever, and no real specialties in durability.
FF3DS, you can make a case for him in Heavy; would need to look him up exactly, but its not farfetched.
FF3o, I struggle to see him getting out of Light.
This is compared to CoD whose Godlike vs. Heavy; one division vs. two, hurrah?
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Persona 3
1. Have you played this game?
Yes.
2. Rank it?
Yes. Rank all non-Minato/Metis PCs and the Strega goofballs. I actually don't mind Nyx, but I'm not about to fight for it either. Aigis...yes if there's a concensus to actually list her as The Journey only, but we don't seem to have reached that point yet. Abstain for now.
As for the bosses, Super? Frankly, they're potentially more interesting than some of the PCs in a duel. At the least, Chidori is a hilarious Puny.
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FF3 (Dark Cloud)
1. Have you played this game?
Nope.
2. Rank it?
Yes. I would despise seeing the generics get ranked, but Dark Cloud is fine. Having just Gilgy and Ex-Death from FFV hasn't caused any problems.
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Meep: Just for the record, 3DS Xande has a low OHKO with physical + aga (those are stronger than Meteor for power), or aga + aga if you allow that. So he's a pretty good Heavy, though sub-PCHP (if not by much) holds him back. 3o... yeah.
Most bosses become way better duellers in DS.
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Persona 3
Played It? Yes.
Rank It? Yes.
Rank: All PC's except Minato and possibly Aigis (Depends on how vote splitting goes). Rank Strega (Chidori makes an awesome Light). Abstain on Nyx Avatar. Do Not Rank Nyx (Plot Boss). Sleeping Table is also DNR. Metis may be FW bait.
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However, are we going to re-rank everyone when we get enough viewership for "The Answer?" The main cast actually gets Boss forms that can do a good deal more than their PC forms can do (Mitsuru has One Hit KO damage in her boss form, and all of them get the added Holy and Dark protection for free on top of what they normally resist). Metis still wants her PC form though, while Aigis has no Boss Form, just the multi-persona base to go off of.
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Pers 3:
Playing it, rank it, rank the PCs (including Aigis) and Chidori. Abstain on all others.
FF3: CoD
Played it long time ago, rank her.
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This closes when the site closes, so in 13~ hours. Get your votes in now!
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Persona 3
- POSSIBLE SPOILERS -
More The Answer spoilers.
Yeah, they'll have to be re-ranked. Though I'm not sure how much better they actually are offhand. I'll get some notes later.
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Persona 3
No
No
GEE I'M SURE EXCITED ABOUT A GAME I WILL NEVER EVER PLAY GETTING MATCHES. That and there are scaling headaches simply because Minato even exists and it's a low draw and I don't think writerships was very good.
Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness
No
Abstain