The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Dark Holy Elf on January 24, 2009, 11:36:57 PM
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It's getting as much ranking talk as anything, so it should probably have a topic. Discuss who should be ranked / any ranking issues you think others should be aware of.
Pretty straightforward game, I think. Eight PCs, three bosses (Tony, Renee, Isolde). I wouldn't really consider the final in any form, DL-wise, and I don't think anyone else has even close to enough plot. The three who do have more than enough; nothing even close to an Ull situation here, which is nice (and good since we don't really know how well the game will draw). PCs... yeah, can't see why you'd pass on any of them. Muppy deserves note because he'll have a significant interp split (Light to Heavy), but I don't think that's enough to avoid ranking him. Writeup potential is there for basically everyone, which is, again, nice.
Specific ranks... well, I've commented on already. Contenders is the best GameFAQs board ever. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=584646&topic=37439980)
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I'd personally DNR Tony and Renee. Somewhat mid-game bosses who aren't very strong nor very memorable in battle (Throw in lots of varying forms too!) off a game that we know isn't going to be a great draw definetely seem like the type of people we can leave off.
Anyways, I guess I actually never quite did numbers for this game (Probably because I guess I had some timedcards questions to test...), so gut checks
Vayne- 3.9. Overkill, but only like 1.25x to me, so not fullproof. Still, that+decent status blocker is good enough for low Heavy.
Nikki- 4.3. Respecting the turn 1 speed helps her a lot, and that killer turn 2 comes off really fast to me. Usuable damage 5 turns is also nice.
Jessica- 3.65. Damage is solid enough, just has that charge time (Think I'd see her getting 5 of the 2200 damage move). On the other hand, doesn't hit her healing at all! Turn 1 Silence is nice too. I could perhaps see her as a low Heavy...
Flay- 3.5. Slow 2HKOer. Time Cards help make that a great 2HKO, but still not see it as enough for Heavy.
Pamela- 4.55. Low Godlike probably does work I guess. While the magic having status immune healers give her a lot of grief, those don't numbers that many I think.
Roxis- 3.35. Another slow 2HKOer, but this time with worse durability than Flay!
Anna- 3.1. Fast 3HKO, but nowhere near the 2HKO. Throw in a choice of 1 status block, and she can swing Middle...I guess...maybe
Muppy- So...Change doesn't work on any of those random humanoid scrub opponents that have like 200 HP? If it doesn't even work on them...well, I may be seeing Muppy as a Light then!
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Which random scrubby humanoids? I just tested on pure humans, it worked fine.
Vayne: Heavy. OHKO damage burst, doesn't slug well due to MK base physicals sucking.
Nikki: Heavy. Really fast, damaging.
Jessica: Low Heavy. Does not die except to big damage bursts. Even 2HKOers can get stymied. Sadly, for her some 2HKOs manage a OHKO so the durability's still a holdback.
Flay: Middle/Heavy. He's borderline, see Dhyer pretty much.
Pamela: Low Godlike? Wrecks Heavy, spoils in Godlike. Works.
Roxis: Middle/Heavy again.
Anna: Middle. Speedspeedspeed HATES MY 3.0x PCHP INTERP speedspeedspeed.
Muppy: I have no clue in hell.
EDIT: For those who consider it, Change! works on humans just fine ingame.
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The scrub humans were those academy students with a few hundred HP that pop up every so often.
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I don't remember those ones. The ones I'm talking about have 900 HP, they're also academy students.
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Probably just the upgrades of the enemy I'm thinking of then. Anyways, I put some MK characters in the recent PG just to see how they'd do (Pamela in Heavy/Godlike, Jess/Roxis/Flay in Middle/Heavy).
Maybe this isn't the right place to ask this, but since it's a ranking topic, does anyone know if there is any enemy that does only resist status and doesn't immune it or if most MK status checks a stat? Matters for whether I'd only see Change as immunable, or if it could be resisted too.
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Dhyer: Well, I'd disagree pretty strongly on Tony/Renee; based on how much I've seen them talked about in chat it's clear they're certainly memorable characters, objectively have a lot of plot, and there's nothing particularly wrong with them as a fight (particularly since they're before D-supports, which can obstruct the player seeing what bosses can do). We don't only rank Godlike bosses, after all.
Guess we'll see come ranking time, though.
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I'd definetely prefer to shy away from duellers whose last truly legal forms are kind of punies, especially given the likely low vote draw. I think maybe they are memorable as characters, but not really at all as duellers.
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Their fight in C5 is one of the most memorable in the game, Isolde aside. They have enough durability to not be a blow-off, show up before the game's system gets rolling (thus steamrolling them) and they also have a few decent quirks to make them stick out. Their last forms will be unmemorable, but the good form is fought like one chapter before that one and the very last one isn't even DL-legal.
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Their fight in C5 is one of the most memorable in the game, Isolde aside. They have enough durability to not be a blow-off, show up before the game's system gets rolling (thus steamrolling them) and they also have a few decent quirks to make them stick out. Their last forms will be unmemorable, but the good form is fought like one chapter before that one and the very last one isn't even DL-legal.
Those last forms will also be the only legal forms to a fair number of people though. I found them to be fairly steamrolled on their own merits anyways.
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I doubt many people would take that battle seriously, so I'm not really concerned. (You don't see anyone hyping Zophar for Puny. Or Vinsfeld.) Also totally disagree on duelling memorability; there's really no aspect about either in the DL I'd expect to blindside casual players.
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They just strike me as the Turks with half the DL playership, and I think the only thing the Turks even remotely get by on is their playership.
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Tony and Renee are basically the game's only "villains" for the first 3/4ths of the game or something. And I don't think I know anyone who will hold them to the very final forms all the time.
They are interesting characters, interesting duelers, and very plot relevant. They are essentially obvious ranks. I guess you could take some unusual views that make them worse, but that goes for like any boss ever.
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Contenders is the best GameFAQs board ever. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=584646&topic=37439980)
I'm not familiar enough with the game to be sure of ranking yet.
However, this is the first time I've ever seen this link.
Why isn't there a link to this somewhere on the main site?
This is the most coherent explanation of the DL I've ever seen and it would have made the early stages of my time here so much easier!
Just a suggestion that may help votership - put a link (or the information from the first posts) SOMEWHERE on the main site. Think it will really help new voters understand the DL better.
-Djinn
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Fuck always using bosses' last forms for DL forms, and this is EXACTLY why. First forms unscaled that you randomly fight after their second forms? Yeah no.
Basically agree with NEB/Pyro there.
And I'm pretty sure all MK status hits RES except for Muppy's Change (perfect accuracy), Anna's S-type Shadow Chase (depends on target's cHP after attack), and Nikki's Bear Homerun (always seems to be 50%). There is no status resistance other than immunity.
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Pardon my asking, but why exactly is the final a no-go on this? I realize there may be some issues with the first form, but the second form seems separate enough to me, and I don't recall any game-breaking tricks from him.
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Primarily just due to most people not remembering him, or so the theory goes. We don't tend to rank "plotless" bosses. (Yes, he has plot, but it's kinda sudden at the end.)
Granted, I wouldn't mind seeing him in myself, but odds are most people will kneejerk against him.
I'm sure someone else can elucidate on the case against him better than I can, though.
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Pardon my asking, but why exactly is the final a no-go on this? I realize there may be some issues with the first form, but the second form seems separate enough to me, and I don't recall any game-breaking tricks from him.
Mostly because it's just an eyeball with little plot. Not to mention there's not much of a "character" behind it. What would we rank it as? Crazed Eye? That's just the name it's given in-battle but it's never used outside of that.
It's technically rankable from a gameplay standpoint, just most people would reject it from a plot standpoint. I wouldn't be completely against it at this point but I also don't really care, so eh.
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MAJOR SPOILERS TIME!
The final boss is... well, Vayne (note the VA). Or an aspect of him, at least. I'd find that incredibly odd to rank, even before the issue of what you'd call him. "Vayne's Mana Powers"?
It's fine on gameplay (except that it is optional, though I imagine most people fight it) but the plot issues it introduces are very icky.
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Continuing the spoilers here:
Yes, the final is Vayne, but then if I recall Xenogears correctly (it's been quite a while since I've played it) Id is Fei, and Id is not only ranked but competing this season. "Other" Vayne might not have gotten much screen time, but he was still a vital part of the plot, being the culmination of the entire plot. The game hints at Vayne being more then he seems at many points throughout it, and the reason Isolde did what she did was because she was afraid of that power. "Other" Vayne may not have existed for very long as something separate from Vayne, but I'd hardly call him sudden or unmemorable. He's not like Necron.
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I think I'd probably have objection to Id on some levels myself.
Granted, both Id and Crazed Eye also had real-world effects (Id's being on a far grander scale, buuuuuut)
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Related note to the spoiler: Is art doable for MK's final?
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Uhhhh... you could copy-paste Vayne's picture and call it a day? Otherwise, it'd be sort of a pain.
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That I'd vote against for being a massive spoiler, if nothing else. You'd have to use a different shot.
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Art of him would be really fuggin' annoying to find, I suspect. You'd probably have to ask the Japanese-speakers to try and find one.
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Ok, just started the game, so thoughts so far:
Rank Vayne, Jessica, Nicole, Flay. Assuming they fight - I've only been in class so far.
DNR any of these random people you guys keep mentioning. Not appearing in the first couple minutes? Screw that. Too obscure.
Obviously, I need to play some more >_>