The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: superaielman on February 07, 2009, 04:26:07 AM
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This topic will open Sunday evening. Check back then!
RULES
Choose TWO games/Forgotten Warriors. You must choose two, and can not choose more than two. This is to provide some balance- some people will yes most ideas, some will no most ideas. Picking out the best helps window down what to rank.
RULES REGARDING (single) FORGOTTEN WARRIORS: They do not take up a slot, if they're from a ranked game. They still need to beat out the third place game for nominations to get to the next stage.
Don't:
Suggest a game for ranking for humor/trolling/for the hell of it. Please put some effort into your suggestions and pick the best games for the DL overall. Save the comic failure for NR.
What makes a good rankable game?
* games that are well-played within our group, and hence will get good vote numbers
* games which are well-played outside of our group, and hence will attract newbies
* games with well-developed or memorable characters
* games with interesting duellers battle-wise
Feel free to ask any questions about the process here.
And now on to the suggestions that have been made through the voting page. You don't have to stick to this list, but most people do read through it to refresh their memory of unranked games. Also gives you an idea about fan demand.
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Selected games:
Mana Khemia
Writers: 13/20
Suggestors: 10
Art: Easy to find
Accessability: Easy to find
Vote potential: Above average
Current potential: Below average
Notes: Much better. Internal's gone way up since the last time and it has tons of writers. The PSP rerelease has been pushed back to March, but it's still scheduled to be released and can only help the game draw.
Wild ARMs 5
Writers: 12/20
Suggestors: 6
Art: Easy to find
Accessability: Easy to find
Vote potential: Average
Current potential: Below average
Notes: The writers are good and it has demand, though the internal is surprisingly not all that great for a WA game. It's not going to be the success that WA4 was for a lot of reasons, though a WA3 style success is nothing to be ashamed about in the DL. This look familiar? It should, it's a copy and paste from last time. Nothing really has changed.
Megaman X Command Mission
Writers: 14/20
Suggestors: 4
Art: Easy to find
Accessability: Easy to find
Vote potential: Average
Current potential: Below average
Notes: Same deal as before. Good internal, who knows about the external. It's a damn interesting DL game, I'll give it that. No problems with accessability either, which is nice.
Star Ocean: First Departure
Writers: 7/20
Suggestors: 1
Art: Easy to find
Accessability: Easy to find. Emulatable+PSP release.
Vote potential: Above average
Current potential: Below average
Notes: Surprisingly solid ranking idea, depending on what the internal looks like. It's part of a fairly popular series and got a shiny remake. It may not be there next time, but it's an idea for the future.
Wild ARMs: XF
Writers: 8/20
Suggestors: 2
Art: Easy to find
Accessability: Easy to find.
Vote potential: Average
Current potential: Well below average
Notes: Needs more internal, but it does have potential. Cool cast+Strong following helps, as does the WA label. We'll see about this one.
Pokemon: Diamond/Pearl
Writers: 9/20
Suggestors: 0
Art: Easy to find
Vote potential: Above average
Current potential: Below average
Notes: I'm actually concerned about drawing here. DS is a fairly solid system for playership but RSE has not been dominating in the votedrawing.
Disgaea 3
Writers: Under 5/20
Suggestors: 1
Art: Easy to find
Accessability: Problomatic. It's on the PS3, which has low market penetration with the DL as it stands. Easy to find as a game though.
Vote potential: Below average
Current potential: Extremely low
Notes: PS3's going to be a hard system to rank games from.
Tales of Vesperia
Writers: Under 5/20
Suggestors: ?
Art: Easy to find
Acessability: Problomatic. Better than the PS3 at least!
Vote potential: Below average
Current potential: Extremely low
Notes: No ranking issues other than the usual ARPG headaches and getting people to play a 360 RPG.
Persona 4
Writers: 5/20ish
Suggestors: 5
Art: Easy to find
Acessability: Easy to find
Vote potential: Below average
Current potential: Extremely low
Notes: Idea for the future, pretty much. It's not ready yet. I do like the strong fan support here, but P3 if nothing else shows that Persona games (What the fuck) do have DL potential. It'll just take some kicking to get enough writers.
Soul Nomad and the World Eaters
Writers: 11/20
Suggestors: 0
Art: Easy to find
Accessability: Unknown
Vote potential: Below average
Current potential: Below average
Notes: Cool game for the characters, but it's not the most interesting cast. Revya's a headache as well. Internal's not bad by any means.
Xenosaga 3
Writers: 12/20
Suggestors: 2 (One FW nod for Allen)
Art: Easy to find
Accessability: Unknown, assumed to be easy to find
Vote potential: Below average
Current potential: Below average
Notes: Copy and paste my thoughts from last time. No real movement or changes.
Radiata Stories Forgotten Warrior: Jack Russell
Writers: 10/20
Suggestors: 2
Art: Easy to find
Accessability: Easy to find
Vote potential: Average
Current potential: Below average
Notes: It's not *bad* in any one area in terms of playership/rankability, but it doesn't blow me away either. Jack's stronger than the rest of RS for draw thanks to the way the game's recruiting system works.
Barkley: Shut up and Jam
Writers: 5/20ish
Suggestors: 1
Art: Unknown
Accessability: Easy to find, freeware game
Vote potential: Well below average
Current potential: Extremely low
Notes: Manages to make Hoshigami look like a good idea.
Kingdom Hearts FW: Sora
Writers: 11/20ish
Suggestors: 2
Art: Easy to find
Accessability: Easy to find
Vote potential: Above average
Current potential: Average
Notes: It has no drawing or art concerns, that's for sure. Is it RPG enough/Disney problems/ARPG concerns have always been the issue holding the game back.
Others:
Ar Tonelico 1
Brave Story
Tales of Symphonia 2
Jeanne De Arc
Growlanser 2
Growlanser 5 *Waves to Revvy*
DQ 4 FW: Esturk/Estarc
Sword of Mana Bosses
FF12 FW: Larsa
LPT FW: Prier
Enchanted Arms
Last Remnant
Mother 3
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Mana Khemia and Naesala.
Sora, Jack, MMXCM, and SO1 all have fair cases, but WA5 feels like the strongest of that group. I just don't have a lot of faith in MMXCM's ability to do well on site in spite of the fantastic internal.
Naseala deserves to make it in regardless, so switching my vote now that CM's pulled away a little.
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Mana Khemia and Wild ARMs 5.
Sora, Jack, MMXCM, and SO1 all have fair cases, but WA5 feels like the strongest of that group. I just don't have a lot of faith in MMXCM's ability to do well on site in spite of the fantastic internal.
This. WA5 is looking good enough, and MK... apparently is being played by a lot of people outside the DL? I might have to pick this up after I finish P4 and WA4.
EDIT: You know what? Naesala narrowly missed last time, and WA5 is not as good as it could be. So Naesala FW and Mana Khemia.
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Naesala and Megaman X Command Mission.
This is entirely based off not liking WA5 for the DL! Yay! Also Mana Khemia because that's the cool thing now~ EDIT: The cooler thing is of course supporting OK.
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There are three games that are not "Elfboy hits you for seriously thinking this is a top two pick this time": Mana Khemia, MMXCM, and WA5. So let's look over them:
Internal: MMXCM > MK > WA5. Small gaps, though. WA5 is the one I've heard least about new people potentially picking up.
Dueller interest: WA5 loses. Prettty straightforward here, WA5 only has one to three remotely interesting PCs, depending on who you ask. Bosses are nifty but similar in some cases.
Suggestions: MK >> WA5 > MMXCM. Suggestors is kind of a small, limited sample space, but it's still worth noting.
Sales/external: None of the three gives me any reason to be impressed, although a slight nod to WA5 for at least being from a proven DL series.
Honestly, I've played all three, and would be happy enough with any of them in the DL. I don't feel particularly strongly on the call I need to make, here. But that said... WA5 has no real argument over MK that I can see. A vague feeling of "Wild Arms 1-4 >>> Atelier Iris and Ar Tonelico" isn't really good enough to tip the fact that MK wins every else. So MK's in, and I'm left with WA5 vs. MMXCM. Two writers vs. two suggestors. Duelling interest vs. possibly more reliable external. I really am not sure, this is close. When in doubt, internal is my Most Important Category, so I'll go with that for now, but I am very open to arguments here.
In conclusion:
Mana Khemia
Mega Man X Command Mission
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My votes are MK and WA 5. Good internal, with likely decent enough external power. But additional thoughts on the rest.
MMXCM- My thought is that anyone outside of the core group may not really even know this game exists! I had never originally heard about it until somehow posted as "Why isn't there a stat topic" topic ages ago, and never see it mentioned anywhere else really. Wouldn't no it if it got to the next round. Can't see the 2 extra writers it brings over WA 5 as enough to make it stronger now. Possible vote for next time.
SO 1r- Would be nice eventually. The core 4 at least should eventually be able to grab decent drawing between the two releases, and are interesting enough.
WA:XF- My likely vote for next time. Decent internal gains, well liked, interesting duellers, and a decent test for the PSP (Granted, not like there are many other things that would depend on that test...).
Pokemon D/P- I'd take RBY pokemon over this. Better well known and draw better, I'm sure.
Disgaea 3- Suprised it got on the main list, given no suggestors and PS 3 having next to no penetration. Sounds like it's not even that well received in some ways?
ToV- Better than D3 by a little (Someone...at least cared to topic it), although XBox+ARPG.
Persona 4- Definetely something to look at in a few ranking cycles. Only 5 writers though? Seems low.
Soul Nomad- Seems more like a non-fitting DL game. Out for several years are no one has cared to really even attempt to topic it implies either that or no strong caring?
Xenosaga 3- Blah, still need to get Allen notes. I don't care any which way. Well, I like the duellers, but given how badly the game is generally received...
RS FW- Very for it! Jack is cool/good write up bait/strong/well known.
Barkley: Shut up and Jam- Lol.
Kingdom Hearts FW- As always, no visible numbers is that a nail in the coffin for me
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Mana Khemia and Wild ARMs 5.
Lazy.
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My votes are Mana Khemia and... hell, WA5 and MMXCM both look like they need another ranking period.... Well, FW Jack isn't getting any better, and he's decent. My vote goes to RS FW Jack.
Votes are for Mana Khemia and FW Naesala.
WA5 and MMXCM both look fine. They'll probably be good in a ranking period or two. Naesala looks good Now.
SO1(r) - This one surprises me, though it seems like it will eventually be a good addition.
Dis3, ToV, anything on PS3/360 - Not yet. Despite my fanvoritism, not ready at all.
WAXF gets my strong support for any soonish ranking.
Pokemon DPP - I don't even know what we'd ranking from this? Just the starters? Aren't all the legendaries from this one hidden or something weird like that?
Persona 4 - Will probably sweep the next ranking session over WA5, MMXCM, WAXF, and SO1. Not worried about it not getting in.
Soul Nomad - hahahhahaha. It doesn't have a chance. Awesome game, and I'd love to see it in the DL if we could sludge throug h the interesting interp calls, but those interp calls are going to forever hold it back. Equipment being dependant on Room (though maybe you could consider Rooms a kind of equipment in themselves), equipment being consumable, which skills can be considered unique to a PC, whether PCs can use different skills in the same battle (OB style), whether a character should be allowed to use their unique 'Field skills' as the leader of a unit, whether a leadered unit should be allowed generic mooks as a kind of 'equipment' similar to Rooms (maybe a closer example would be boss support?), whether to rank temps like Kotaro... all of these things COULD be ironed out, but it would be somewhat arbitrary. As a side note, I've tried to have this conversation about a possible stat topic for SN a few times, but people don't answer their PMs...
XS3 - *shrug* it's ready, but there are better options.
KH FW Sora - like this, which despite all its headaches is at least a good draw. How many of those do we have?
Ar Tonelico 1 - Rank the RTs and Lyner!
Brave Story - Not really noteworthy compared to other PSP options.
Tales of Symphonia 2 - Not ready in the least, and once there's a stat topic, people might vote on these forms for the ranked characters from this anyway.
Jeanne D'Arc - Spelling fixed! I've discovered this game has a niche fanbase I would have never guessed it had. According to the stat topic though, most of the duellers can't break Light. If you wanted to make Light more serious, you could rank a few of these guys... don't think it's going to happen.
Growlanser 2 - Not a bad option in terms of interesting duellers, but just doesn't have the fans... sadly. (GL fan's heart breaks)
Growlanser 5 - I think this has a slightly higher playership, smaller cast, and better overall gameplay. Not sure it translates to the DL better. Tal and I need to finish this stat topic... >.>;;
DQ 4 FW: Esturk/Estarc - I'm ambivalent towards this one. Doesn't hurt anything, doesn't have a lot going for it either...
Sword of Mana Bosses - Don't know anything about this.
FF12 FW: Larsa - I'd be in favor of this, along with a boss rank or two, just to get all of our requisite numbered FFs ranked (and promptly forgotten about, hi FFX2!)
LPT FW: Prier - Good writeup bait, decent playership, decent internal, reminds me of Jack in a lot of ways.
Enchanted Arms - 360 RPG not ready yet.
Mother 3 - Ooh. This is a really good option. Why aren't we considering this more seriousl- oh right, emulator-only. Hmm... SD3 isn't exactly amazing on draw... but it's not bad. Mother 3 might be another SD3-level rank.
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Wild Arms V
FW: Naesala (FE9)
I'm not giving up on Naesala, dang it.
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I'll go for Mana Khemia and Command Mission, myself. Elfboy more or less nailed the reasons why.
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Mana Khemia - Definitely supporting this one. Reasons are obvious and have been said before.
Wild ARMs 5 - Throwing my other support here, I guess. Not exactly the best DL game, but it's probably the most ready. MMXCM is just behind it.
Megaman X Command Mission - Good internal, but it seems like people outside the DL aren't too interested. Though, maybe next time?
Star Ocean: First Departure - Meh.
Wild ARMs: XF - More people need to play this. Hopefully it'll be ready next time.
Pokemon: Diamond/Pearl - I'm kind of surprised this hasn't been picked up more. Oh well.
Disgaea 3 - PS3/10
Tales of Vesperia - XBox360/10
Persona 4 - More people need to play this too! Better rank than P3! Hopefully it'll be ready in one of the upcoming periods (maybe the one after next if not next).
Soul Nomad and the World Eaters - Complete psyduckery in the DL. No.
Xenosaga 3 - Meh. All the PCs are already ranked and the bosses aren't that interesting.
Radiata Stories Forgotten Warrior: Jack Russell - No.
Barkley: Shut up and Jam - Yeah not supporting this but don't really mind.
Kingdom Hearts FW: Sora - No.
Others:
Ar Tonelico 1 - Yeah not seeing this happening. (Though the RTs are interesting duellers! In a psyducky kind of way.)
Brave Story - Odd choice.
Tales of Symphonia 2 - Too new if nothing else.
Jeanne De Arc - Meh.
Growlanser 2 - UNO FINISH THE STAT TOPIC
Growlanser 5 *Waves to Revvy* - Hey it could be cool (haha not happening).
DQ 4 FW: Esturk/Estarc - Who?
Sword of Mana Bosses - ...what the hell?
FF12 FW: Larsa - YES!!1
LPT FW: Prier - Meh.
Enchanted Arms - Know nothing about it.
Mother 3 - Japanese only! Real winner there!
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MK, Naesala FW
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You people haven't even mentioned the best choices yet...
Barkley, Shut Up and Jam Gaiden: Chapter One of the Hoopz Barkley Saga
The game is short and easy to find, particularly because it's free. Seriously, this is a better idea here than anything else, merely because the potential exposure is amazing. It also has interesting characters, and the chance to have some more historical characters ranked (BARKLEY VS RASPUTIN!!!!!). Great game.
To rank: Charles Barkley, Balthios James, Cyberdwarf, Hoopz Barkley, Vincebourg, Michael Jordan. Others...mmm...the bosses are maybes - this gets the main group.
Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood
Another excellent game. DS is up and coming, and the game gives us some very popular characters to throw into the RPGDL (Mario vs. Sonic! Again! For the 900000th time!). The fighters are also all very interesting in their own rights, and it's a good cast. Bosses are...bleh, but doable.
To Rank: Sonic, Amy, Tails, Cream, Big, Knuckles, Shadow, Shade, Rouge, Robotnik. Ixy is...eh, probably not that memorable, but rankable. Have to remember the other bosses first >_>
I'll post real choices later >_>
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As for the other PATHETIC options this session...
Mana Khemia
Excellent option, but worse than Barkley. Think it's high up there, though - could definitely be up next session. Cast sounds interesting (I need to sit down and play it >_>), and the demand is there. Good choice, but Barkley is better.
To Rank: PCs, the 3 bosses I've heard about. Final I'd have to see.
Wild ARMs 5
PC cast is much less cool than Sonic. Boss cast...is a bunch of clones, mostly. The game is overall a good DL fit...but the PCs are so sucky. And Volsung gets split, as does Avril. It's not the best on combat prowess, but the write-ups are decent, and it gives us more Godlikes. And hey, decent enough votedraw, it's just always going to be in the shadow of WA4. Another excellent choice, overall, but I wish it were better cool-wise.
To Rank: Rebecca, Dean, Avril, Greg, Chuck, Carol, Kartikeya, Persephone, Nightburn, Volsung, Fereydoon, Elvis.
Megaman X Command Mission
Unknown the effect of external. I have no idea how well this is played in the world around (I suspect it might be better played in the MM fans, who might not frequent the DL). Still, much cooler PC cast than WA5, and the bosses also have quirks themselves. This and Mana Khemia would be my choices this time if the better Barkley and Sonic weren't here - interesting, decent potential, etc.
To Rank: X, Zero, Axl, Marino, Massimo, Cinnamon, Redips, Ferham, Scarface, Shadow, Botos, Epsilon.
Star Ocean: First Departure
Future idea. Needs more players. Granted, there will be split between SO1o and SO1r (I...need to get to finishing that SO1o topic), and the new characters...will be interesting to see. I'll pick up the remake at some point, I think. Anyway, a good option later, but not enough now.
To Rank: Ratix, Milly, Ashlay, Cius, Dorn, Fear, Iria, Joshua, Marvel, Perisie, Ronixis, Tinek. No idea on the new PCs. Jie Revorse maybe...really need to refresh my memory on the game's plot.
Wild ARMs: XF
Much cooler than WA5. This might be up next time. PSP games are cool. Overall, has a neat cast, new forms for ranked people (ASGARD), and the interest is there.
To Rank: PCs, bosses. Too lazy to write them all out now.
Pokemon: Diamond/Pearl
POKEMON. Maybe. Just...other stuff now. We'd rank...legendaries and starters? They're starting to get boring to me >_> Anyway...if the internal/external is ok, then this will be good. But not yet.
Disgaea 3
Maybe later. Next gen is death now.
Tales of Vesperia
See above.
Persona 4
This will be P3. Might be ready by DLCon time. Excellent game, cool fighters, new tricks, and a rankable main!
Soul Nomad and the World Eaters
Need to play more of this, but...not seeming likely.
Xenosaga 3
I think this should be ranked at some point. Really. At least let's get the hot bosses and temps in >_> Just...other stuff is always a better idea!
Radiata Stories Forgotten Warrior: Jack Russell
Not a bad option, better stuff now with more people, etc.
Kingdom Hearts FW: Sora
See above.
Others:
Not yet. Or ever in some cases.
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I... Lots of stuff I haven't played on that list :(
About the "Next-gen is death now", how come? Nearly no one here has a PS3 or an X-Box 360 or a Wii? That sucks, I was really hoping to see Star Ocean 4 some time after it comes out this month (Assuming it's as awesome as the others anyway). Me it's a PSP and a DS I don't have. Anyway, here goes for the list from those I've played...
Anyway, from that list I give a vote to Xenosaga III and Star Ocean: First Departure. Also give a "why not?" to Jack.
If it wasn't for the whole "game has flopped" thing, I'd put a vote for Enchanted Arms. I enjoyed the game, the characters have easy write-ups, and the mechanism are very DL-friendly. I'd also put a vote for Operation Darkness but I might be the only one who actually liked that game, and last time I made the suggestion it got pretty much laughed out at so I won't put it again :)
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Well, it'd be at least six months before SO4 would likely be considered, even if it was a PS2 game. (At least, I think only one or two games have managed to get halfway decent internal within six months, enough so that people could reasonably write for them.)
But yeah, install base tends to be less in general for people when it comes to the 300 and 400 dollar consoles, and the Wii just managed to have terrible RPG draw. Still, something could happen in the next six months, you never know.
As for me...
Mana Khemia and Megaman X Command Mission.
This is entirely based off not liking WA5 for the DL! Yay! Also Mana Khemia because that's the cool thing now~
Yeah, that works.
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Hello again. >_>'
All for MK and MMXCM.
P4: Next go-round.
ToV... Might bring in outside voters/ people who haven't been here before/people who aren't too cheap to upgrade to a current-gen system... next time, probably.
WA5: Do we really need to rank WA4 skill-sets with different avatars? >_>
Soul Nomad: ...Grr. Game and character-wise, I'd say rank it ASAP, but...
PSP/DS games: I have no handheld, so I have no opinion.
D3: No PS3. Don't plan to ever ever own a PS3.
XS3: Rank Ziggy and Vergil. That's it.
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WA5: Do we really need to rank WA4 skill-sets with different avatars? >_>
If that aptly described WA5, it would be a BETTER rank than what it is now.
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Mana Khemia
Naesala forgotten warrior
Edited to change to Naesala. Wish I could just say FE10 in general and get him there, but this works for now.
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Just a little note: Pokemon Platinum is slated for a March 23 release. How this impacts votes is up to the voter.
As for the Legendaries: You have the Lake Trio and the Dragons of Time and Space, as far as Main-Plot-Relevant. As of Platinum, add the Dragon of Death. (Who is Post-Game prior to.)
Post-Game include RegiGigas, as well as a one-off beast in a volcano, and a Lunar Swan connected to one of the 3 Gift-Only Legendaries (not including the Ranger Crossover).
Am wondering if including Pokemon who are Starters from the Gamecube games would count as a separate game or not. Those would at least subvert the standard Grass-Fire-Water Trio.
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Mana Khemia and Command Mission.
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Naesala FW
Mana Khemia
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Checked the numbers and various rating sites.
Tales of Vesperia seems to be far more popular than I expected, it utterly outranks (among others) WA5 and Dis3. External is more than ok, too bad about the internal.
MMX:CM seems to be fading into obscurity, doesn't seem worth ranking.
Persona 4 isn't ready yet.
...
Considering the internal, I can see only two acceptable choices:
Mana Khemia and WA5 FW: Naesala.
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I would LOVE to throw one pick for Barkley, since it's easily the best game (that's not persona 4) here but it's still not taken seriously as a game.
Mana Khemia
Mega Man X: Command Mission
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Mana Khemia: Haven't played it, but...it seems to have pulled an upset of sorts in that I didn't expect the game to ever be rankable, but well, here we are! Anyway, yeah, seems like the best option this time around.
EDIT: Naesala FW. Yeah, he should be in. Enough plot, interesting enough by FE standards, popular, etc. Missed last round barely, deserves to get in (So does Elincia! But one character at a time)
I was supporting MMXCM, but Naesala probably deserves to be in. MK seems like objectively the best choice at the moment, much as it still surprises me that a Gust game actually became popular enough. So yeah, these two.
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I'd say Mana Khemia and Wild Arms 5.
I'd say WA:XF would need a bit more than the average rankability in terms of internal due to being on the PSP, sadly, as much as I want to see it in.
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Tales of Vesperia seems to be far more popular than I expected, it utterly outranks (among others) WA5 and Dis3. External is more than ok, too bad about the internal.
Just for the record, ToS showed something along the lines of three times the purchases, IIRC? And was, initially, miserable on vote percent(In like the bottom ten games or something), despite being ranked when vote totals were fairly high.
Presumably, being on an off console with few RPGs in and of it's self, and being an ARPG, gave the game much higher sales among people who don't have ten RPGs to rub together for voting reasons. At least, that's all I can guess. ToV, even if it had good presence among the writing staff, may be a bad idea anyways, as such.
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ToV is a bit different from ToS in that ToS was practically one of two RPGs for the GameCube over it's entire lifetime. I'm pretty sure the 360 already has more RPGs than the GC had period? Well, it seems more an issue of "next gen consoles aren't ready and may not be in any reasonable time frame" than "ToV can only be popular because it is the only RPG for it's system."
As for myself, I'll go with Mana Khemia and Wild Arms 5. MK I am a big fan of personally and WA5 feels like the second best out of mediocre options.
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I guess my big question is that... do people really care about WA5 more than MMXCM outside the DL? I don't really pay attention, but less interesting duellers + game that people don't really like is not really capturing me at all.
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It'd be the big question of the ranking period. I've heard a couple of people express a pretty strong desire to not see WA5 in due to the interest issues. On the other hand, CM's an older title that flopped horribly and is now the in the 8 dollar bin at Gamestops nationwide.
I am considering switching my WA5 nod to Naesala. He does deserve to be in and I have massive reservations about CM at this point. WA5 may pull a VH and not get much interest outside of a few bosses.
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RAAAAAAANK MEEEEEEEEEE
*ahem*
FW Elyon
and Persona 4, because it's the only other thing I've actually played here.
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MK and MM
I don't mind WA5, but has no urge to support it.
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I guess my big question is that... do people really care about WA5 more than MMXCM outside the DL?
The numbers are disappointingly low for both games.
MMX:CM is more widely played than WA5, but its popularity is dragged down by the Megaman fans who thought that it was too boring/wordy. Most of them have zero interest in DL, so I predict that the draw will remain low if it's ranked. Not only that, but it's already four years old, and as I said, rapidly fading into obscurity.
WA5 received a rather lukewarm reception, slightly lower than WA4.
Frankly, neither of them seem worth ranking. If it were possible, I would've only voted for MK. WA5 is slightly better than the alternatives, but not by much.
...actually, I had forgotten about Naesala. Tempted to switch my vote now...
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I guess my big question is that... do people really care about WA5 more than MMXCM outside the DL? I don't really pay attention, but less interesting duellers + game that people don't really like is not really capturing me at all.
WA 5 isn't really well liked? I know it's no WA 4 in terms of popularity (in the DL at least), but most people at least seem to like it to some degree.
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Hmm...
Mana Khemia
FW-Naesala
WA5 interests me so very, very little. And CM...just feels a bit weak.
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I think they mean as a rank, Dhyer, but I have to agree with you. I'm seeing a lot of rumor and heresay about people disliking WA5, but other than people preferring Command Mission over it (legitimate) I'm not seeing a lot of outright hate or rebukes.
NINJA'D BY GATE- Other than Gate. >.>
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*Genuinely likes WA5, though still places it below WA3&4, of course* It's inoffensive (unless you're one of those people who just got pissed off over it not being Wild Arms 4 Redux) and gets us a few godlikes, at least. Not a stellar rank but a perfectly acceptable one to me.
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Mana Khemia
FW Naesala
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And...since you IDIOTS will not RESPECT the AWESOME of BARKLEY or SONIC, I must CHANGE my VOTES.
EMPHASIS ON THE CHANGE.
So, I support now...
Mana Khemia - Guess I need to speed through this. >_> Anyway, it went from a pipe dream last time to the best choice this time. How...cool. Seems strong overall, and a great choice for prospective ranking. Need to play it for actual ranking concerns, but they don't sound too bad.
Naesala - This spot has been back and forth for me. MMXCM is much, much more interesting than WA5...but I feel (for whatever it's worth) that the external needs work...which might never happen, so it's not a bad choice now! WA5, though...bores me a lot. WA5 is overall a better idea than MMXCM, I feel, but the fact it's not been ranked when it really had the chance twice is...bleh. I understand better stuff was around, but still. Naesala, on the other hand, has great support, is interesting, and a great character from a game with good vote draw. Plus, he's hot. There...is nothing wrong with ranking him, especially since...hey, he's a FW, so as long as he makes top 2 here, we get the 3rd choice in too. This cannot be bad in any way whatsoever. Strikes me as the best option - we can argue MMXCM vs. WA5 during the next phase.
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I feel, but the fact it's not been ranked when it really had the chance twice is...bleh. I understand better stuff was around, but still.
This is a horrible argument. Better stuff was around so of course it wouldn't be ranked. Games can get better as time goes on and their competition can get ranked. Maybe if it had gotten to the second phase and got rejected, then MAYBE you'd have an argument, but not if it's just because people felt other games were better at the time/it needed more people to play it.
I don't really have any problems with your choices or other arguments or anything, that sentence just irked me. >.>
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Not really using that as an argument, more of an aside. I mean, I did laugh a bit when it missed it barely, but...you are right, that's more of a problem in the second stage. It sill find it funny that a FW with votesplit beat out an entire game with several Godlikes >_> It's just more funny to me the way I look at it.
The game's technically been ready, and hasn't changed much, in the past two periods. Which means to say waiting isn't changing it much.
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The game's technically been ready, and hasn't changed much, in the past two periods. Which means to say waiting isn't changing it much.
Waiting still gets rid of stuff like MK and MMXCM which are better or arguably better ranks. So even if WA5 ITSELF doesn't change, it changes relative to the other ideas it's against. I mean, if we rank MK and MMXCM, can you think of two games that would beat WA5 out next time? Well, WAXF and P4 are probably the most likely, but I'm kind of doubting either of them would be better.
So yeah, even if a game doesn't change in terms of draw, it can still be a better rank next time due to less competition. Of course, this implies it is suitable for ranking NOW, but it doesn't require it to be one of the top two.
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The game's technically been ready, and hasn't changed much, in the past two periods. Which means to say waiting isn't changing it much.
Waiting still gets rid of stuff like MK and MMXCM which are better or arguably better ranks. So even if WA5 ITSELF doesn't change, it changes relative to the other ideas it's against. I mean, if we rank MK and MMXCM, can you think of two games that would beat WA5 out next time? Well, WAXF and P4 are probably the most likely, but I'm kind of doubting either of them would be better.
So yeah, even if a game doesn't change in terms of draw, it can still be a better rank next time due to less competition. Of course, this implies it is suitable for ranking NOW, but it doesn't require it to be one of the top two.
Speaking in an absolute sense myself, not relatively, but yes, I see your point.
And Barkley/Sonic would be better next time than WA5! >_>
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WA5 itself is reasonably well-liked, if rarely loved in the DL (though it's far below WA4; if they were actually close as Andemon sugests, WA5 would be a slamdunk ranking idea, so I once again caution using sources outside the DL...). I think the real concern with it comes from the fact that its PC cast the least interesting we've ranked in years (since VH if not since WA3), so it's generating some apathy that way, though the fact that it's a bit weaker on internal than MMXCM and MK doesn't help.
Generally agree that it's strong enough to deserve to be ranked; I won't vote against it if it comes up and I'm not really sure why one would (we've let far more suspect games through), I'm just not sure if it's the one of the best ideas this time. Basically, see Tal.
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WA5 and FW Naesala.
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Mana Khemia: Sure, I can believe it's got enough push outside the DL to be worth ranking.
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest: The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single vote.
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Mana Khemia and WA5 works.
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Mega Man X: Command Mission
FE9 Naesala
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This will close along with the update. Get your votes and comments in now!
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MMXCM/MK
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Mana Khemia and MMX Command Mission.
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I guess I'll say
Mana Khemia since it means I have to play it
Naesala since he may actually get in.
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Votes: XS3 (FW Allen only?) and FW FF12 Larsa. Still sticking to them though it seems like neither have a chance. More generally, I'd be in favor of ranking a ton of FWs, especially ones for next-gen systems so that the DL isn't just digging up stale older titles - rank Tales of Vesperia Yuri and the like. I'd also be in favor of mining some of NR's stars since NR isn't coming back, so Radiata Stories Jack, La Pucelle Prier, etc.
Mana Khemia and WA5 seem basically fine. I'd be very hesitant about Mega Man X: Command Mission, though, as I'm not sure I've ever seen it in a shop or ever heard about it anywhere except on this site. Probably best for only a FW nod.
I'm in favor of eventual Naesala ranking, as well, though ideally as his FE10 form. In fact, fitting in with the whole more FWs idea above, I for one would strongly prefer that he be ranked as "Fire Emblem: Radiance" or the like, since his forms in FE9 have issues (an ubergodlike & a split path), and explicitly allowing FE10 would be a way to allow people who've played Radiant Dawn to vote on that game's form with a clean conscience while neatly sidestepping the form legality issue.
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Votes: XS3 (FW Allen only?) and FW FF12 Larsa.
Larsa's actually a bad idea for a number of reasons.
1) Temp.
2) PC interp psyduckery (matters because if you scale temps to DL-legal PCs )don't see why you wouldn't...), you STILL have to figure out how you see DL-legal for FF12 PCs).
3) AI issues. (Hold him to them or not? Stat topic doesn't even list them for some reason, which doesn't help.)
Not a very good rank and especially not a good idea as the only representative of the game.
In fact, fitting in with the whole more FWs idea above, I for one would strongly prefer that he be ranked as "Fire Emblem: Radiance" or the like, since his forms in FE9 have issues (an ubergodlike & a split path), and explicitly allowing FE10 would be a way to allow people who've played Radiant Dawn to vote on that game's form with a clean conscience while neatly sidestepping the form legality issue.
Naesala's FE9 form isn't an ubergodlike. His FE10 form is better.
And as far as I'm concerned, if we rank Naesala I'm allowing the FE10 form anyways. But that's neither here nor there.
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Naesala has that boss form in C14 or whatever. Since it's nearly a dead-ringer for his Athos-esque PC form... yeah. But it's also not the chapter boss and clearly designed as something to run screaming from in-game until he leaves, so I tend to think most people will rightly ignore it.
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In addition to what Tal said, I'd bet good money that FF12 would be a worse draw than anything seriously up for ranking this time.
FF12 is another FFX-2 (it has sales! And isn't liked/played in general 'round these parts). Only less-suited to the DL. Oh boy.
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But...but...Godlike Balthier hype with BASIC PHYSICAL ATTACK!? IT'S LIKE THE SECOND COMING OF RAQUEL!!!!
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Noting I changed my vote from MMXCM to FW Naesala, just so its easier to tally and such.
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Mm. Well I already noted that Larsa isn't happening this season, and it's entirely valid to say that there are currently better ranks. Since people want to bring it up, let me explain why Larsa is still a good rank. FF12, much as it got a... mixed reception, was still a pretty major release. The FF series is probably easily the best played series in the DL. It would just seem strange to not have a representation of it here. It's hard to say about FF12 drawing in general, but the same is true of a lot of possible ranks. It's a single FW nom, so the costs of not drawing well are not nearly as bad. Anyway, the mechanics mean that the PC cast is basically out, like FF5. That leaves the temps as having unique abilities and stats and the bosses. However the bosses translate to the DL really badly, so it is just the temps after all. This leaves... Larsa and Reddas. Reddas is kind of boring and gets hit hard by late-game FF12 interpretation. So... Larsa. Luckily Larsa actually has plot and a personality (more than Penelo! About as much as Fran!), so he fits the bill pretty well as an FW rep of the game. And despite Tal's concerns, I'd say he translate to the DL pretty simply - he's a low-damage item-based healer with an infinite sack. There ya go. (Maybe not the most INTERESTING dueler ever, but quite easy to interpret.)
Reponding to Tal's concerns:
Larsa's AI issues are annoying but mostly irrelevant. His Gambits are to attack at high health, toss a Hi-potion at low health (I want to say 40% HP?), and toss an X-Potion at critical health (So his healing is basically always full). In Light this is generally exactly what he wants to do. Admittedly there will be rare times where a "smart" Larsa would fight differently than a dumb one- say, a slow and frail opponent who Larsa 2HKOs, but 2HKOs Larsa back with their attack, and has a low probability of some kind of fatal status attached to the attack (AI Larsa will waste time healing their damage and eventually be statused when he could have just attacked for the kill). This is a downside, but hardly a fatal one.
As for scaling, I think we can just do the sane thing and scale him against what an average party would have. Nobody who's not playing challenge games would fail to get licenses for things like storebought weapons and armor available when he leaves. This would be a bigger problem for Reddas thanks to extremely broken and potentially universal equipment like the Bubble Belt, but not really for Larsa. I guess you can haggle over how much HP Larsa has depending on whether you see everyone in Light Armor and the legality / average of HP+ augments, but it's not the end of the world if one person sees Larsa at .95 PCHP and another at .80 PCHP.
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As for scaling, I think we can just do the sane thing and scale him against what an average party would have. Nobody who's not playing challenge games would fail to get licenses for things like storebought weapons and armor available when he leaves. This would be a bigger problem for Reddas thanks to extremely broken and potentially universal equipment like the Bubble Belt, but not really for Larsa. I guess you can haggle over how much HP Larsa has depending on whether you see everyone in Light Armor and the legality / average of HP+ augments, but it's not the end of the world if one person sees Larsa at .95 PCHP and another at .80 PCHP.
Arguably, only the DL-legal things are the initial equipment, since everyone needs licenses to equip other things, and those are arguably illegal. In this case, Larsa jumps up a LOT from it. That's my whole point. If you're scaling to DL-legal PCs, then you have to figure out what you SEE as DL-legal for PCs, and then there's always votesplit with people who DON'T scale to DL-legal PCs.
AI stuff: That's also a hindrance against people who deal between 50% and 60% of his HP in damage, since he gets 2HKOd but can't heal. And also against people with crits. And people who have an attack that does x% of his HP where x<60% and another attack that deals >=100-x% of his HP. If he's faster, he could heal until a double if you don't hold to AI, but gets killed otherwise.
And the fact you're not even sure what his gambit limits are isn't helping his rankability here...
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MK and... MMXCM, I suppose. More interesting from what I hear, and at least in my experience, infinitely easier to find.