The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: superaielman on February 13, 2009, 02:29:23 PM
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66% have to approve it for retirement for it be removed.
AtL4 Bebedora
BGs Edwin
BGs Imoen
BGs Jaheria
BGs Minsc
BGs Viconia
SF1 Alef
SF1 Anri
SF1 Balbaroy
SF1 Bleu
SF1 Darksol
SF1 Domingo
SF1 Gong
SF1 Gort
SF1 Guntz
SF1 Kane
SF1 Lowe
SF1 Mae
SF1 Mishaela
SF1 Ramladu
SF1 Tao
SF1 Zylo
SF2 Cameela
SF2 Chaz
SF2 Chester
SF2 Elric
SF2 Galam
SF2 Gerhalt
SF2 Geshp
SF2 Jaha
SF2 Kazin
SF2 Kiwi
SF2 Lemon
SF2 Luke
SF2 Mae
SF2 Rohde
SF2 Sarah
SF2 Sheela
SF2 Slade
SF2 Taya
SF2 Zalbard
SF2 Zeon
SF2 Zynk
ToE Chat
ToE Max
ToE Rassius Luine
ToE Shizel
VPs Freya
Short list of games:
AtL4 Bebedora
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira)
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt)
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie)
Tales of Eternia secondary characters
VPs Freya
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AtL4 Bebedora- Retire
Baldur's Gate cast- Retire all. I like it as a DL game, but no. Nothing it's draw or it's inability to gain new fans makes me think the game will work. I seriously wince when it gets in thanks to draw, and I can't be the only one.
Shining Force 1- Retire all but Darksol and Kane. Kane did fairly well for himself the one time he got in, and Darksol sucks but draws well for the game and has no votesplit issues. The rest of the PC's are.. blah. I don't know, the remake really ruined the mains and none of the fighters are worth a damn. Mishaela's just boring and doesn't generate much interest. Abstain on Domingo.
Shining Force 2- Keep Sarah, Slade, Cameela, Geshp, Zalbard, Chester. The greater devils do.. okay enough and have history. The PC's by and large I can live without. Keeps enough of a cross section of the game with what I have suggested. A boot on fire to Taya and Galam. Lemon's cool but has some votesplit woes, so I can live without him.
Tales of Eternia secondary characters- Keep Max, retire the rest. Max has fan interest and isn't a headache. Chat is a headache (She didn't go 30+ seasons between appearances for no reason), Ras was hashed over in the last time, Shizel is Shizel.
VPs Freya- Retire.
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Atl - Retire
BGs - Retire
SF1 - Definitely RETIRE Alef, Balbaroy, Bleu, Gong, Gort, Guntz, and Zylo. PCs with little plot and/or aren't widely used and/or are even more subject to RNG than normal for worth.
For now, abstain on Anri, Domingo, Lowe, Mae, Tao (more used/notable/popular), and all the bosses.
SF2 - Definitely RETIRE Chaz, Elric, Galam, Gerhalt, Kiwi, LEMON, Luke, May, Rohde, Zeon, and Zynk. Optional/less used/less notable/less early PCs and bosses that nobody cares about.
Abstain on Cameela, Chester, Geshp, Jaha, Kazin, Sarah, Sheela, Slade, Taya, and Zalbard. More notable bosses (with history in some cases), and early/more plot important/more notable PCs. Could certainly be argued on some of those PCs - Sheela, Taya, and Jaha in particular.
Retire Rassius. Abstain on Shizel. Keep the PCs.
Retire Freya.
EDIT: All SFs I abstained on are now Keeps.
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While I should probably hammer things out a bit more later, some initial thoughts...
SF1 and SF2 aren't wonderful, but nor do they draw badly enough to be cored utterly. I'd like to keep a modest number ranked for each, optimally (6-12), so that what's left is cared about a bit more and the games compare better to low-drawing smaller-cast games like Legaia 2, SoA, PS1-2, DDS, etc. (with less interest in most cases but that can't be helped)
ToE... can somebody fill me in on why Max and/or Chat being retired specifically is something I should support?
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Chat has massive votesplit (Puny or something not puny) depending on how you hype eternal hammer. Not used much in game. She also joins late and gets EH late.
Max is fine with me. He did respectably against Tidus and has always gotten fan interest. He's as good as the rest of the core cast, which makes for a fine rank.
SF1... Max/Jogurt/Kane/Darksol (Yes I am seriously considering Darksol a good rank. Fail SF)/Domingo? I really can't think of much more to make it work. SF2, I think my group works. Can argue Kazin, but SF2 mages have never done much in the DL proper.
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Chat has massive votesplit (Puny or something not puny) depending on how you hype eternal hammer. Not used much in game. She also joins late and gets EH late.
Votesplit on how you see one move isn't really a good reason to boot someone. Onoes different interps. (Boot FFT/FE bosses!!1)
Getting a move late also isn't really a good reason to boot someone. (Boot Lenneth!!1 Also like half the PCs in the DL.) Optional FAQ-bait moves are worse (hi Seraphic Radiance).
Joining late's not a big deal to me (some awesome PCs join late!), though I can see it. Not being used much is a good reason though.
I'm not really against a Chat booting. Just saying.
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Chat's problem isn't any of those issues, it's them all combined in one package with ToE level drawing. There's a reason that as soon as her one fan left the DL, she utterly fell off the face of the earth.
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Abstain on Bebedora. Part of me wants to keep her on just as a joke, but objectively that's terrible reasoning.
Retire everything Baldur's Gate. The situation has just gotten worse and worse for it since ranking, in terms of both vote draw and writers... unfortunate, but so it goes.
Retire everything Shining Force 1 except Darksol, Kane, and Mae; abstain on them, as I'm open to arguments on them. If there's a good, non-obscure fighter on the list besides Mae I might consider sparing them as well. Tao losing to Rozalin despite near-universal board support is NOT a good sign, whether you chalk it up to remake mage anti-hype or just plain robbery. I have no confidence in Tao/Anri to win against anything but Jogurt or Euram anymore.
Tentative keep for Slade, he's actually somewhat memorable for a Shining Force character. Retire the rest... the bosses are sorta interesting, but I have no confidence in any of them to not tank anymore, aside from Odd Eye who's not up for retirement here anyhow.
Retire Rassius. Edit: Keep Max and Chat. It takes especially good reason to cut off just one or two PCs from a small cast, even a weak draw as far as I'm concerned. Either get rid of every permanent PC but Reid or keep them all, and the former isn't an option here. Abstain on Shizel.
Retire Freya.
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AtL4: Keep.
Writeup potential considered, she's more entertaining than the other two combined. Either boot the game fully or keep all three...
BGs: Retire Edwin and Viconia. Keep the starters.
SF1: Keep Anri, Bleu, Mae, Darksol, Mishaela, Ramladu, Kane and Domingo. Abstain on Zylo. Retire the rest.
I don't know anyone outside of DL who didn't use Bleu: competent flyers are in short supply, especially since the other one can be missed.
SF2: Keep Sarah and Slade. Abstain on the rest.
ToE: I don't remember much about this game. I'm sure that I've played it, but... Abstain.
VPs: Abstain.
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In general, keep all...no, I'll be a bit objective about this. Blah, fuck it. FUCK IT IN THE ASS I SAY.
AtL4 Bebedora - Kill - Despite being saved, hasn't...done anything. The mains are fine...she's a relic of randomness that shouldn't be in.
BGs Edwin
BGs Imoen
BGs Jaheria
BGs Minsc
BGs Viconia
Keep - At worst, keep just Minsc, the original FW. I'll be fine with the others going out, but keep Minsc. He's easy to interpret, and, as always, I am perfectly fine with keeping a single representative in.
SF1 Alef
SF1 Anri
SF1 Balbaroy
SF1 Bleu
SF1 Darksol
SF1 Domingo
SF1 Gong
SF1 Gort
SF1 Guntz
SF1 Kane
SF1 Lowe
SF1 Mae
SF1 Mishaela
SF1 Ramladu
SF1 Tao
SF1 Zylo
Keep - If booting, kick Gong, Gort, and Guntz, the optional people with no plot on the list.
SF2 Cameela
SF2 Chaz
SF2 Chester
SF2 Elric
SF2 Galam
SF2 Gerhalt
SF2 Geshp
SF2 Jaha
SF2 Kazin
SF2 Kiwi
SF2 Lemon
SF2 Luke
SF2 May
SF2 Rohde
SF2 Sarah
SF2 Sheela
SF2 Slade
SF2 Taya
SF2 Zalbard
SF2 Zeon
SF2 Zynk
Keep - Like above, if booting, kicking the optionals (Zynk, Taya, Sheela ;_;, May ;_;, Kiwi), is fine with me.
ToE Chat
ToE Max
ToE Rassius Luine
ToE Shizel
Keep - However, I am not adverse to kicking Shizel definitely. Ras...eh...less so inclined, but won't fight it. Max and Chat should stay - you get plot from both, and it's well-known what they can do.
VPs Freya
Keep - VP2 form is generally fine, if...not great. Feels really wrong to kick her - she's big in the game.
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DO NOT BOOT JOGURT. WHY ARE PEOPLE SAYING TO BOOT EVERYONE, INCLUDING HIM? JOGURT IS FINE
Jogurt and Max aren't on the cut list. Bad OK.
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The point still stands! Do not boot Jogurt!
EVER
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Bebedora: Abstain
BGs: Keep Minsc. Abstain everyone else.
Shf1: Keep all.
ShF2: Keep all.
ToE: Keep Max, abstain others.
Freya: Keep, but as VP2 only.
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Bebedora: Boot.
Baldur's Gate(s): ...sigh. boot. ._.
Shining Force 1: Boot Gort, Zylo. Abstain on the rest. See below.
Shining Force 2: Boot Gerhalt. On skimming the list, these were the only ones from either cast that had a complete and utter blank initial reaction followed by no real duelling details popping up mentally. Might just be me, but hey, if I can't even remember anything about them when I try hard, they don't need to be in I guess. Abstain on the rest, don't care enough beyond the people I still can't really remember existing.
Tales of Eternia: Boot Rassius. Abstain on the rest.
Edit:
Oh, and Shizel. Boot Shizel. I actually forgot about her, I think she's been nothing but trouble as a rank, has had some interesting issues about the first and second forms and plot arguments therein(which usually lead to "Well plotwise the temp version you have for two matches is more ligit.".)...yeah.
Freya: Ooooh, she's up? Boot! ^_^
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AtL4 Bebedora: Retire. She had no business being here; she got kept based on a minor technicality, and the game is abysmal as is; keeping Kharg and Darc alone is shakey, but at least they have the "We're the main characters!" thing.
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira): Retire . The game served its purpose long ago and over stayed its welcome. It proved more than enough that PC RPGs do not blend in with the DL.
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt): Boot. Shining Force tends to inspire apathy; the game going entirely though feels wrong, but there aren't really any big ones besides Jogurt (obvious reasons) and Max (main character, shoe-in for FW.) Suppose there's a few "odd ball" ones I could support, and maybe Ramladu/Darksol, but interp split...yeah.
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie): Retire. See Shf1 for the most part.
Tales of Eternia secondary characters:
Retire Ras. Scrubby boss and PC form and adds nothing but immense apathy to the DL.
Keep Max. Actually interesting and fun character, feels like he can stay.
Retire Chat. Max without any of Max's decent qualities.
Abstain on Shizel. On one hand, she's a ToE boss which is a bad thing in this case...on the otherhand, she's the games main villain, and has a legal form, so...yeah.
VPs Freya: Keep. I said it in the other topic, but I have no problems with the VP2 form.
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Boot Bebedora, Freya, the ToE characters, and the BG characters. As for the SF characters... well, I haven't played the games so abstain for now and I'll watch arguments.
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AtL4- Retire Bebedora. Have the PC cast or just Darc and Kharg. Feels wierd with just her.
Abstain on BG
SF1- Retire Alef, Balbaroy, Gong and Gort. Keep the rest. Zylo has a forced plot scene and was a cornerstone of my party (yeah, probably due to RNG luck, but still enough to keep him), Guntz is memorable and easy to get, as far as the borderline people.
Abstain on SF2
ToE- Retire Ras, Keep all others.
Abstain on Freya
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Keep Bebedora
Boot the whole BG list
Boot the whole ShF1 list except for Kane, keep him
Boot Freya
Abstain on ShF2 and ToE
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AtL4 Bebedora- Boot
BGs- Boot. Like the game, love the duellers, but if it's a bad fit and getting a lot of support, it's likely it's time to go.
SF1- Keep Domingo (Who has duelling interest and is a cut above in memorability on that front), boot the rest.
SF2- Keep Peter, Sarah, and Slade (Basically the big 3 interest wise who got noted last time), boot the rest.
ToE Chat- Boot. I'm certainly okay with puny fodder that no one is really interesting being booted.
ToE Max- Keep. On the other hand, he's strong, has people more interested in him, and starts with two of his three big moves right off!
ToE Rassius Luine- Boot. Soooo bad.
ToE Shizel- Boot. Final boss headache forms, and has not done well at all.
VPs Freya- Boot. For the people who are saying to just keep her as VP 2, do you really think if VP 1 existed, her VP 2 form would be all that rankable? It's also highly flawed.
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AtL4- Boot. The entire cast should be booted, but I will take what I can vote for.
BGs - Boot.
SF1 - Boot Alef, Bleu, Gong, Gort, Guntz, and Zylo. Keep everyone else.
SF2 - Boot Chaz, Elric, Galam, Gerhalt, Kiwi, Luke, Lemon, May, Taya and Zynk. Keep everyone else. Especially Cameela/Zalbard/Zeon.
ToE- Boot. The entire cast should be booted, but I will take what I can vote for again.
Boot Freya. With a hammer. To the face.
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AtL4 Bebedora
Boot
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira)
Keep: Minsc
Boot: Rest
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt)
Keep: Domingo
Boot: Rest
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie)
Keep: Sarah, Slade
Boot: Rest
Tales of Eternia secondary characters
Boot
VPs Freya
Boot
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AtL4 Bebedora - Keep
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira) - Boot
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt)
Keep: Ramladu, Kane, Darksol, Domingo, Mae, Mishaela, Bleu, and Tao
Abstain: Everyone else
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie)
Keep: Geshp, Zeon, Cameela, Zalbard, Slade, Sarah, Taya, and May
Abstain: Everyone else
Tales of Eternia secondary characters - Keep
VPs Freya - Keep
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Kill Bebedora~
Don't care about BGs~
aiel's list for the Shining Forces work~
Kill Rassius/Shizel, keep Chat/Max
Kill Freya
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AtL4 Bebedora - Boot to the face.
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira) - Boot.
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt) - Boot. I'd rather keep ShF to a bare minimum in the DL.
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie) - Boot.
Tales of Eternia secondary characters - Boot Rassius - actually, boot Max and Chat too. Honestly, I wish I could just boot the whole game here, but while the cherry-picking is stupid, I'll take what I can get.
VPs Freya - Abstain. I don't care either way.
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AtL4- Boot. The entire cast should be booted, but I will take what I can vote for.
BGs - Boot.
SF1 - Boot Alef, Bleu, Gong, Gort, Guntz, and Zylo. Keep everyone else.
SF2 - Boot Chaz, Elric, Galam, Gerhalt, Kiwi, Luke, May, Taya and Zynk. Keep everyone else. Especially Cameela/Zalbard/Zeon.
ToE- Boot. The entire cast should be booted, but I will take what I can vote for again.
Boot Freya. With a hammer. To the face.
Especially the hammer to the face.
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I don't know anyone outside of DL who didn't use Bleu: competent flyers are in short supply, especially since the other one can be missed.
I'll readilly admit to not knowing anyone outside the DL who has played Shining Force, period... but unless my memory has failed me, SF1 had at least four fliers (Amon, Balbaroy, Kokichi, Bleu), so Bleu's not that special. He might be competent levelled up (though given his Light ranking, he can't be anything special), but his starting stats are seriously hideous, which doesn't seem like it encourages his use to me. IIRC he is awesome if you powerlevel a lot, but that's not really the type of character I'd like to have ranked. It makes it sound like half the players will view him as trash because they remember his starting stats, and half are powerlevellers who get a skewed view of his stats and think he's great. Awesome idea.
SF1 unarmed characters (Domingo doesn't count) are a clusterfuck for respect variation in general. I've even seen Adam hype when non-powerlevellers consider him one of the worst PCs of all time. Kill them all.
Also, Keep Max and Chat. It takes especially good reason to cut off just one or two PCs from a small cast, even a weak draw as far as I'm concerned. Either get rid of every permanent PC but Reid or keep them all, and the former isn't an option here.
I read this and couldn't help nodding vigourously. I would very possibly support a trim-down-to-Reid or utter booting of the game since its draw suuucks, but cutting one or two off? Eh. Need a better reason for that than what I've been given.
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Boot everything up except Shining Forces, which I abstain on.
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Chat and Max are technically optional PCs. In practice it's a matter of talking to them if they aren't in the party, and they have the same amount of plot and so forth regardless. I have no idea why ToE decided to do it this way <.<
AtL4 Bebedora- Abstain. Whatevs.
BGs- Boot. I sharply remember how long it takes to get writers for it.
SF1- Abstain. Haven't played.
SF2- will be editing in individual rulings as I play the game or until the topic closes, whichever happens first.
SF2 Cameela
SF2 Chaz
SF2 Chester- Keep. Bland but there from the beginning and continually useful despite statistical shortcomings.
SF2 Elric
SF2 Galam
SF2 Gerhalt- Abstain. Very borderline. He's automatic but plotless, very solid but not standout... I dunno. Feels like a good border to me at least, everyone more rankable than Gerhalt can stay!
SF2 Geshp
SF2 Jaha- Keep. Most forgettable of the starters, but still alright.
SF2 Kazin- Keep. Only mage for ages. Really kinda sucks for a while (magic damage is ITD but... otherwise scrubby so far) but still. 'sides, Desoul off some speed. Plenty for Light.
SF2 Kiwi- Boot. Easily missed scrub.
SF2 Lemon
SF2 Luke- Boot. Maaann Luke sucks.
SF2 May- Boot. Optional, plotless, vanilla gameplay worth. Joins before you have a full party so as long as you actually take the five seconds to talk to her you'll use her I guess, but yeah. Not good enough in a low-end draw.
SF2 Rohde- Keep. Plot value is... welll, higher than everyone but Slade and Peter at least!
SF2 Sarah- Keep. Only healer for ages. Promo item seems easy to miss, which hurts, but is clearly legal (two for two unpromoted healers!) so not too bad.
SF2 Sheela
SF2 Slade- Keep. More plot importance than, uh... any other PC anyway >.> I mean, he literally sets off the dominoes of the plot. Plus he's actually good if Magikarp-esque.
SF2 Taya
SF2 Zalbard
SF2 Zeon
SF2 Zynk
ToE- Keep. Except...
ToE Rassius Luine- Boot. ToE just can't support a midgame ARPG boss, as his win/loss record quickly proves.
VPs Freya- Keep. Eh, I didn't find her that bad as VP1, let alone VP2. And 'interp split' is the only thing against her, she's an obvious rank by all other criteria.
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Chat and Max are technically optional PCs. In practice it's a matter of talking to them if they aren't in the party, and they have the same amount of plot and so forth regardless. I have no idea why ToE decided to do it this way <.<
Votes later, to be edited in.
Max is forced for Ruins of Volt at least! Also comes in with his damage move and healing out of the box.
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Ah, yeah, neglected to mention that part due to being pressed for time.
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Keep: Minsc
Abstain: Rest
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AtL4 Bebedora - Boot. I like her, but I can't see a logical reason to keep her.
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Jaheira) - Boot. Keep Minsc, a single FW is fine.
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt)
Keep: Ramladu, Darksol, Domingo, Mae, Mishaela, Bleu, and Tao
Boot: Everyone else
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie)
Keep: Slade, Sarah
Boot: Everyone else
Tales of Eternia secondary characters
Keep: Max
Boot: Everyone else
VPs Freya - Keep, she's just too important to the plot to drop her to me. I'd support just about any of the einherjar who aren't named Arngrim/Mystina/Jelanda/Lucian, but Freya may even have more speaking lines than Lenneth... (Or maybe it just seems that way because she has voiced lines during the einherjar menus... and repeats the same 3 lines endlessly...)
-Djinn
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AtL4 Bebedora: Boot
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira): Boot
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt): Abstain
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie): Abstain
Tales of Eternia secondary characters:Abstain
VPs Freya: BOOT AND BE SILENT.
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AtL4 Bebedora: Boot.
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira): Boot.
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt): Boot.
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie): Boot.
Tales of Eternia secondary characters: Boot Chat and Ras, keep Max.
VPs Freya: Eeeeeh. Keep as much as it pains me.
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AtL4 - Abstain
BGs - Abstain
SF1 - Keep Kane, Domingo, Darksol, Tao, Anri, Zylo, Mae, Mishaela. Boot the rest.
SF2 - Keep Sarah, Zeon, Slade, Kazin, Cameela, Zalbard, Geshp. Boot the rest.
ToE - Abstain
VPs - Freya. Keep. I don't think these interpretation issues are enough to justify a boot. Interpretation gives DL people headaches, but the DL is completely based on creative interpretations, so it's a bit silly to me to boot her. If she has vote totals significantly worse than her cast, I'll buy it, but otherwise, no.
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AtL4 Bebedora- boot, sorry Bebe
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira)- Keep Imoen and Minsc as forgotton warriors, boot the rest.
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt)- Keep Kane and Darksol, boot the rest
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie)- Keep Sarah and Slade, boot the rest
Tales of Eternia secondary characters- Boot all
VPs Freya- Eh, I see that form as legal, might as well throw in a keep vote.
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AtL4 Bebedora
Abstain.
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira)
Abstain.
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt)
Kill them all.
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie)
Kill them all.
Tales of Eternia secondary characters
Abstain.
VPs Freya
Keep.
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AtL4 - Boot.
BGs - Eh. Boot, I guess.
SF1 - Abstain.
SF2 - Boot Chaz, Elric, Galam, Gerhalt, Luke, May, Taya and Zynk. Abstain on Jaha. Keep everyone else. Especially Cameela/Zalbard/Zeon. <-- quoting Ciato/Shale here mostly. Tossing a keep to Kiwi, but I won't be totally heartbroken to see him go. Just partially.
ToE - Boot Rassius/Shizel. Abstain on Chat/Max.
VPs - Abstain. As funny as she is to write bonus commentaries for, I'll leave it up to everyone else as to if she should stay.
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Man,
VPs - Freya. Keep. I don't think these interpretation issues are enough to justify a boot. Interpretation gives DL people headaches, but the DL is completely based on creative interpretations, so it's a bit silly to me to boot her. If she has vote totals significantly worse than her cast, I'll buy it, but otherwise, no.
Man, what? We have three forms available for Freya. One is an uber-temp during a tutorial that can't be damaged. One is essentially a superboss. The third one ends her fight before he HP runs out and ends with an all-or-nothing attack where you lose if she kills you and win if she doesn't, you don't even need to hit her again(if I'm recalling correctly). Interp issues are one thing, three different forms I would personally consider totally illegal are totally different.
This isn't directed right at you, Miki, I just quoted you since yours was the first I saw. Somebody give me a solid reason why any of those forms -shouldn't- be illegal?
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AtL4 Bebedora: Boot. Whatever, though. She's still cooler than Kharg.
BGs: Boot. Pity, but I can't really support it if I can't even find the game.
Time to be arbitrary.
SF1 Alef: Boot
SF1 Anri: Keep
SF1 Balbaroy: Boot
SF1 Bleu: Keep
SF1 Darksol: Keep
SF1 Domingo: Keep
SF1 Gong: Boot
SF1 Gort: Boot
SF1 Guntz: Boot
SF1 Kane: Keep
SF1 Lowe: Boot
SF1 Mae: Boot
SF1 Mishaela: Keep
SF1 Ramladu: Keep
SF1 Tao: Keep
SF1 Zylo: Boot
SF2 Cameela: Keep
SF2 Chaz: Boot
SF2 Chester: Keep
SF2 Elric: Boot
SF2 Galam: Boot
SF2 Gerhalt: Keep
SF2 Geshp: Keep. Seriously, we put him up for booting?
SF2 Jaha: Keep
SF2 Kazin: Keep
SF2 Kiwi: KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP.
SF2 Lemon: Keep
SF2 Luke: Boot
SF2 Mae: Boot
SF2 Rohde: Keep. Tank!
SF2 Sarah: Keep.
SF2 Sheela: Boot
SF2 Slade: Keep. Rodents aren't properly represented.
SF2 Taya: Keep.
SF2 Zalbard: Keep.
SF2 Zeon: Keep. The DL needs more big huge immobile bosses!
SF2 Zynk: Boot.
ToE Chat: Boot. No one cares about her. And I do mean no one.
ToE Max: Keep.
ToE Rassius Luine: Boot.
ToE Shizel: Boot.
VPs Freya: Boot. Freya's VP2 form is legal in the sense she wins if she gets of Ether Strike, but damn does the HP issue, Toughness scaling... screw that from my perspective. It's easier just to get rid of her now. Maybe a future VP game will give her a more legit form and we can rerank her specifically as that.
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Oh yes, everyone. Counting boots is a PAIN IN THE ASS with all the splitting that happens between different characters, so if you make any changes to your post at any time, make a new post informing me what they are, or no promises I'll see them.
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I don't understand why people want to keep minsc and/or imoen and throw out the rest of BG? All 5 of them were ranked for the same reason: They're important PCs in both BG1 and BG2. Either keep them all or boot them all, don't pussyfoot around like this.
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Man, what? We have three forms available for Freya. One is an uber-temp during a tutorial that can't be damaged. One is essentially a superboss. The third one ends her fight before he HP runs out and ends with an all-or-nothing attack where you lose if she kills you and win if she doesn't, you don't even need to hit her again(if I'm recalling correctly). Interp issues are one thing, three different forms I would personally consider totally illegal are totally different.
Just to clarify, you *CAN* kill Freya in VP2. Its not especially hard to do in fact (might need some offensive twinking, but won't have to go completely overboard), and its clearly something that was a potentially intended outcome. If you run her HP out like normal, she simply dies like a normal boss, and you continue the game as normal, no strings attached. The alternative way to look at the fight is "Ether Strike is illegal" as beyond that one gimmick, the rest of the fight is legit.
Contrast to C-Ending Freya where its "You can kill her if you know EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING" and considering its a form that only appears if you screw up, and more or less requires you to gain a weapon in Chapter 8 anyway...yeah, its not something I think that was remotely intended.
Doubt this changes your stance on the issue, but thought I'd clarify since you seemed to imply you CANNOT kill VP2 Freya as she "suicides" with Ether Strike instead.
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I don't really see how VP2 Freya is illegal at all (zomg she has a move that causes her to lose if you survive it. Oh no. Ban Gilgamesh because he also auto-loses at a certain HP value after taking certain actions?). That said she is pretty horrible and it's not at all what people will kneejerk her as or generally one of her more memorable forms, so I am all for booting her.
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Monkey finger, regarding my Keep Imoen vote
I believe that Baldurs gate deserves a forgotton warrior from the game. I (personally) dont think its drawing is bad enough to just boot the entire thing. (Arc the lad 4 has Kharg staying, Baldurs gate draws the simlarly, Brigandine is staying,) I only picked Imoen since she won three matches and even upgraded! If there is a different PC that would be a better forgotten warrior, then I will change my FW pick.
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I just object to this FW idea.
Way I figure it, if you think BG is good enough to deserve an FW, you think the entire ranked cast is good enough to stay, since they're all the same for rankability.
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BGs: Boot. Pity, but I can't really support it if I can't even find the game.
http://www.amazon.com/BALDURS-GATE-COMPILATION-DVD-ROM-PC/dp/B000FGA1US/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1234680581&sr=8-2
That was pretty easy >_>
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I changed my Lemon vote to boot. Because this is probably going to be a super-important fact~?
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Adding in a keep for Minsc, as he has the most keep votes of BG and I do want to see a forgotton warrior for it in.
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AtL4 Bebedora - Boot.
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira) - Keep Minsc. Abstain on Imoen. Boot the rest.
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt) - Boot.
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie) - Boot.
Tales of Eternia secondary characters - Boot.
VPs Freya - Keep.
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Added Tao, Anri, Zylo, Mae, and Mishaela to my keep list. Totally unbidden, I might add.
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AtL4 Bebedora - Boot
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira) - Boot
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt) - Boot
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie) - Boot
Tales of Eternia secondary characters - Boot
VPs Freya - Keep
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AtL4 Bebedora: Boot.
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira): Boot all.
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt): Boot all.
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie): Abstain on Sarah/Slade/Lemon, boot the rest.
Tales of Eternia secondary characters: Abstain.
VPs Freya: Abstain.
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Stealing most of Djinn's list.
AtL4 Bebedora - Abstain
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Jaheira) - Abstain
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt)
Keep: Ramladu, Darksol, Domingo, Mae, Mishaela, Bleu, Anri and Tao
Boot: Everyone else
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie)
Keep: Slade, Sarah, Kazin, Taya, Kiwi, Sheela and any other bosses
Boot: Everyone else
Tales of Eternia secondary characters
Keep: Max
Boot: Everyone else
VPs Freya - Keep
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Byebye to Bebedora and BG.
Fanboyism demand me to keep ToE.
Don't care about Shinging Force4.
And total destruction to Freya.
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Mm-kay. Um SHINING FORCE SPOILARS
SF2 Cameela- She really feels like a keeper. She's pretty memorable as a character for being a huge bitch and fighting with Geshp, she's a memorable boss fight, since she's on the giant bird thing and has a freaking hueg ball and chain. And she is pretty scary as a boss. (Plus she is a girl-demon!) Shining Force bosses tend to be more memorable than PCs, so I say she's a keeper.
SF2 Chaz- Okay, so I thought he was an optional PC, but the ULTIMATE SHINING FORCE GUIDE says he's not. Regardless, he has a really boring skillset compared to the other mages, and it feels like he doesn't really fill a niche you haven't already filled with like 5 people. Also I would like to note that he is one of the only PCs, including most of them that were booted last time, that I actually have to look up to know anything about him. In fact I have no idea why he isn't already gone.
SF2 Chester- He's one of the two first PCs you get, and all centaurs are pretty much the same aside from May. I think having a token centaur since they are a good chunk of the game's characters is a good idea, and Chester fills this role quite nicely as is.
SF2 Elric- The main thing Elric is memorable for is getting attacked by harpies and swirling in a lake for an entire battle. He's really not special otherwise, archers are totally and utterly DL-nerfed because of the range stuff (except against FE I guess!), and aside from that one battle he has no plot. Buh-bye.
SF2 Galam- He's really important as a NPC early, disappears for 90% of the game, and comes back as a random late boss. He doesn't really fill a niche that the Greater Devils don't, even if he's plot important at the start.
SF2 Gerhalt- He's mostly just devastatingly boring. You recruit him, he's a pretty solid PC but nothing fantastic. Panders to furries. He does nothing in the plot after you SAVE HIS VILLAGE FROM DEVILS or something.
SF2 Geshp- He's pretty much the face of villainry throughout most of the mid-section of the game. He is a major league asshole who really is memorable for his being a douche, his ugly looks, and the fact that if you aren't expecting a Frost to the face, you better start. He's a good dueller, even if he gets beat by SERGE.
SF2 Jaha- Jaha is kind of the same as Chester, except he joins at the second battle and... I guess I feel like his class isn't really an important part of the PC core like Chester's is (plus less memorable due to not being you know a centaur). I am not voting to boot him but I find him uninteresting enough that there is a case for it.
SF2 Kazin- First and only mage that you have in your party for a long time, especially if you don't get Tyrin as your Creed PC (which you should!), so he is memorable in game for doing something different than everyone else, at least. Plus his sorceror form if you allow it is totally bishie.
SF2 Kiwi- Optional and completely horrible. Great combination. Even if he's cuuuute.
SF2 Lemon- I found Lemon to be pretty memorable, but apparently there's some glitch that makes him suck that seems to be up for an argument to boot him. I am pretty leery of booting him even though he's on my list to boot, I remember him jumping off a building and making a giant crater in a ground pretty damn well. <_<
SF2 Luke- He is memorable for being ONE OF THE WORST PCS IN THE GAME. He basically just has one scene after his recruitment and who the fuck uses him anyway.
SF2 May- I like May. She's cute and one of my favorite PCs, but she's optional and doesn't really have plot or fulfill any type of special niche. Sadly.
SF2 Rohde- The main reason I wrote this post is to defend why I'd prefer keeping him. He has more plot than most of SF2's PCs, and while his class isn't unique, if you aren't actively searching for special items, it is. If you want to keep a token archer in the DL, I'd suggest the one who moves the mid-game plot around quite nicely; between trying to get him to join you and getting the Caravan and being your guide on technology (using bombs in caves, flying the airship) he seems like the no-brainer choice. He is around more than just about anyone but Peter to offer his guidance for your party.
SF2 Sarah- First and only healer for a long time depending on your Creed choice. She starts out at the beginning the same as Chester but she has a lot more diversity as a dueller, which leads me to be more inclined to keep her, even though I'd prefer keeping both.
SF2 Sheela- She's not really a great rank objectively, optional endgame PC and all, but she is good and has an interesting skillset that no one else uses. Also her recruitment scene is really fun compared to most. HOW DARE YOU WATCH ME BATHE. *asskicking commences* SHINING FORCE PLOT I know.
SF2 Slade- The catalyst of the plot, unique class, really a good person to keep, don't really need to cover this.
SF2 Taya- Optional PC whose in-game performance is hard to really get going because the next fight you fight after her a lot of the enemies just OHKO her. I feel like a lot of her DL problems stem from the fact that it's hard to see what she can do sometimes because she's so goddamn frail.
SF2 Zalbard- He's definitely the least memorable of the Greater Devils and he doesn't translate fully to the DL due to his game being MT death. He's a champ though which makes me say keep.
SF2 Zeon- FINAL BOSS, SKELETON HEAD. Looming figure over the plot, I could be argued into booting him because he's really not that... visible most of the game and the final boss battle is weaksauce.
SF2 Zynk- He has some plot but honestly it's boring even by SHINING FORCE PLOT standards. I don't mind him going, he's a terrible PC too.
Moreover, I believe that the cast's drawing/being really bad at winning combination justifies a pruning. But if your standards for pruning are extremely high (i.e. you think everything should draw over 55%) then I suggest that you put a lot of other games at the table, like Ogre Battle, Seiken Densetsu 3, and Disgaea 2. SF2's drawing rate is 52%, which is a league above BGs/ToE/Brig/AtL4 etc. (For the last 20 seasons. What happened in Season 9 is irrelevant.) If you want to fully boot all the games under and near SF2, then I am fine with a blanket boot, not that most people have said why they want to blanket boot.
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Boot Bebedora
Boot the BGs
Keep Darksol, boot the rest
Keep Slade and the Greater Devils and final boss, boot the rest
Keep Max, boot the rest
Abstain on Freya
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But if your standards for pruning are extremely high (i.e. you think everything should draw over 55%) then I suggest that you put a lot of other games at the table, like Ogre Battle, Seiken Densetsu 3, and Disgaea 2. S
If you want to fully boot all the games under and near SF2, then I am fine with a blanket boot, not that most people have said why they want to blanket boot.
This seems to imply that the only reason worth pruning a cast is if it doesn't draw.
A lot people seem to have issues with large-cast games because they are hard to find writers for, or the less-popular characters from such games don't have anything worth writing about.
Honestly, Ogre Battle is another large-cast game that could stand some trimming, but it's no worse than say FE8's ranking size... even though it draws less well.
SD3's problem is always going to be the Japan-only thing... until it finally gets a remake/port.
Disgaea 2 is a small rank, and still somewhat new (not to mention that most of its matches have been against things like ShF and PSII...), it's kind of hard to say how well it's doing at this point.
-Djinn
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Er, I meant completely booting there. I condone pruning it, that's why I voted to boot half the cast. <_< My general point isn't that we should boot Disgaea 2, but that having standards that high is silly.
EDIT: In other words I think having a 52% drawing game with 35 characters is bad but having one with 10 popular, more memorable characters is much wiser than just booting everything. I think those measures are reserved for worse drawing games.
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Switched all my abstains on Shining Force to Keeps. (I had previously voted nothing but Boot or Abstain for the entire cast.) Seems the DL is a bit boot-happy instead of keep-happy this time (not that I'm complaining! Do not miss the keep-all votes), so I don't mind adding some votes to keep a bit more of the game ranked. Since yeah, if we have more ToE or Brig ranked than we do Shining Force we are doing something very wrong.
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Doing things wrong is fun~
(Switched to killing Freya/Rassius/Shizel and keeping Chat/Max~)
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Er, I meant completely booting there. I condone pruning it, that's why I voted to boot half the cast. <_< My general point isn't that we should boot Disgaea 2, but that having standards that high is silly.
EDIT: In other words I think having a 52% drawing game with 35 characters is bad but having one with 10 popular, more memorable characters is much wiser than just booting everything. I think those measures are reserved for worse drawing games.
I'm hoping removing some of the failures (Taya) will help SF2's draw rebound myself. The less you have ranked usually increases your draw, and SF1/2's less stellar ideas have been all over the place in a bad way of late. You and everyone else has gone into why cutting the scrubs no one cares about is a good thing.
Honestly, Ogre Battle is another large-cast game that could stand some trimming, but it's no worse than say FE8's ranking size... even though it draws less well.
I could live without the four lights+Rauny, but it's nothing too bad. Three major bosses+main+dragoons+generals has you to 9 already, so there wouldn't be a lot to go there. If we had ranked say the Lyons or Gilberts, it'd maybe a problem.
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I'm vaguely curious to why the boot votes for Kazin. I think he's a unique enough PC to keep myself. He LOST LAST TIME HE WAS IN!!! though or something, I certainly voted against him so I don't see what the big deal is here. <_<
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Changed my SF2 vote to keeping Kazin, Taya and Kiwi as well as Sarah and Slade and the bosses.
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Amended ShF2 vote again. Added a Keep Sarah, Chester, Jaha, Kazin and Rohde and an Abstain Gerhalt.
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This is going to be an interesting retirement session. >_>
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another round of reconsiderations. added Cameela, Zalbard, and Geshp to keep.
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I have this weird feeling we're going to end up with another Bededora situation. Where we have an odd selection of ranked characters because of the wildly differing votes that favor characters for weird reasons.
We're to end up with a sampling like Bowie, Peter, OddEye, Lemon, Cameela, but miss out on Geshp or Slade... or something like that.
Still not as weird as 'Both mains and a random PC', I suppose.
-Djinn
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We're to end up with a sampling like Bowie, Peter, OddEye, Lemon, Cameela, but miss out on Geshp or Slade... or something like that.
As the person counting this thing, no, we're not.
Bebedora was really weird because the game was being culled down to the mains as FWs, but for some reason Bebedora got just enough keeps to stay on.
Shining Force isn't being culled down that much (looks like each cast will be at about ~10 when the dust settles). What's going on now is really democracy at work; those with enough support stay on. While I personally find some of the picks a bit odd (why Domingo, again?) I can't deny the public will, and generally, it mostly makes sense. Looking over the list of what's in and what's out, it seems reasonable enough, particularly when viewed through the lens of DL history and opinion.
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Domingo's one of the best mage units in the game from what I remember. And... tanky?
ShF original anyway. The mages were pretty good overall in that. ...Speaking of, looking at my keep list, it seems weird that I'd keep Tao and not Anri, who has more plot. Change Anri to a keep. Princess power.
Eh, throw Zylo in there with the Keeps, too. Beastmen are fairly rare in Light, so it could make for good write-up fodder. Also, Doglike. Zylo vs. Suikodogs season is just around the corner!
-Djinn
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I'll admit I'm someone who tends to nominate characters that I like but that I know are horrible draws (Like May), so not having those characters there would reduce my amount of "bad" nominations quite a bit :) If it were just personal preference I'd vote "Keep" on all SF2 characters, but I'm going to go by what I think is in the DL best interest...
Bebedora - Boot
BGs - I'd say keep Imoen, she's kinda the face of the serie, and keep Minsc for potentially funny writeups, and boot the rest
ToE - Haven't played, abstain
SF1 - I'd say keep Anri (Token serie mage), Mae (Token centaur), Domingo (Token flying jellyfish) and Zylo (Token not completely horrible dog). Boot the rest.
SF2 - Keep Rohde (Literal tank with plot), Sarah (Monk form hype), Slade (Obvious). Boot the rest though I adore Taya and Sheela...
Freya - If VP2 Odin is legal, why isn't VP2 Freya legal? I feel as if she's an integral part of the Valkyrie Profile serie plots, and I don't see how her VP2 boss form is questionable. I vote keep based on that.
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;_;
It is sad we are booting Sheela, who is the hottest and most realistic of all the girls in the game. This makes me very, very, very sad. Like a panda without bamboo. Being raped by George Lucas.
Oh well, I suppose some culling can't hurt.
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Liking Shining Force characters for hotness? Huh. I wasn't a big fan of the art style, and the designs for the human and elf characters are pretty bland.
Still, to each his own.
-Djinn
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Look at Sheela, then look at every other character in the game's portrait.
Come on, do it.
Go here! http://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/pages/characters_force.html
(http://sg.geocities.com/wuguikor/sheela.gif)
And seriously, why SHOULDN'T we care about hotness? Do you really want UGLIES on the season diamond? I mean...yuck! I don't want to see SARA on that diamond again. She's fucking HIDEOUS. The DL needs to keep the attractive people.
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We're to end up with a sampling like Bowie, Peter, OddEye, Lemon, Cameela, but miss out on Geshp or Slade... or something like that.
It seems like we are going to get all the Greater Devils. Zeon being out and the devils being in is about the weirdest scenario that we have set up. Slade is definitely in as well, iirc. So we distinctively aren't getting a weird sampling.
Also, Sheela is awesome. :)
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Zeon not in is VERY random. >_> But he was a post-ranking, IIRC, so...
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I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone- a vote for No Freya is a vote for justice.
Paid for by the citizens against characters with four forms, all stupid.
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Rohde may have plot, but so did Kisara of S5 fame. We didn't rank her for good reasons (Boring/weak fighter). I don't think the plot justifies keeping him. I can bite on say a Sheela, but Rohde has zero going for him as a rnak to me.
Zeon... you'd have to PM Cranbud to be sure, but he may have considered him too strong for the RPGP? I remember him making a bonus match on the boards about Zeon's entire body versus Indaleico on the first day of the RPGP boards in '02. We ranked him after S7.
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Okay... in that case I'm switching my Keep vote from Rohde to Sheela then :)
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Rohde is plot important and represents a ranged character as well, since as is we are booting all of those. I'm not sure if I've heard anyone say why they want to keep the devils but not their bosses though. <_<
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Bosses? Who are you referring to besides Zeon?
Anyway, re Zeon, it's because Zeon seems ill-suited to the DL. He's pretty much just an immobile disembodied head. I don't really mind keeping him, but he clearly seems to fit the DL less well than his underlings. A less natural rank, if that makes sense? Then there's the fact that some of the devils, at least, get more screentime. You hear plenty about Zeon, and see him a bit when he has Galam possessed, I guess, but the Devils are just so much more present, harrying your party repeatedly (or joining it in one case!). Finally, Zeon has a bit of a respect-split, I think: there are people who think he's an excellent Godlike because hey, 2.5x Odd Eye's HP! And there are the people who see him as Heavy while Odd Eye hangs out fine in Godlike and Geshp is hyped for an upgrade (yo). I'm not saying WE MUST BOOT ZEON, but if you had to only keep one boss from the game, surely that one would be Odd Eye, not Zeon. Up that number to two, and again I'd pass over Zeon, picking Geshp.
Zeon's probably around the fifth I'd rank. I just drew the line between five and four because ranking all of the Greater Devils is an elegant solution, and they're entirely problem-free ranks, which is good for a weaker draw. It helps that Zalbard, the one of the four I remember least for personality reasons, is also a former champ, which ties me to keeping him.
Rohde may have plot, but so did Kisara of S5 fame. We didn't rank her for good reasons (Boring/weak fighter).
Not really comparable. Kisara's a runless mage. Rohde's not very strong because he loses his big advantage from in-game, range, but at least his skillset is the same. He's not very exciting (tanky archer!), but at least his translation is logical.
Someone like Dinn is probably a better equivalent (modest plot, tanky, dull). Now, in general I am bigger on S5 than SF2 as a DL game for a number of reasons, so I am fine with ranking Dinn and not keeping Rohde, but there's a reason Rohde has attracted the Keep votes he has.
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AtL4 Bebedora - Boot.
Baldur's Gate cast (Imoen, Edwin, Viconia, Minsc, Jaheira) - Boot.
Shining Force 1 (Entire cast besides Max and Jogurt) - Abstain.
Shining Force 2 (Entire cast besides Peter, Odd Eye, Bowie) - Abstain.
Tales of Eternia secondary characters - Boot Ras, Abstain on Chat and Shizel, Keep the Max.
VPs Freya - Boot.
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This should be my last modification, but I added Anri to the keep list for ShF1 and Sheela to the Keep list of ShF2.
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This closes tonight, get your votes in soon.
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Not really comparable. Kisara's a runless mage. Rohde's not very strong because he loses his big advantage from in-game, range, but at least his skillset is the same. He's not very exciting (tanky archer!), but at least his translation is logical.
Someone like Dinn is probably a better equivalent (modest plot, tanky, dull). Now, in general I am bigger on S5 than SF2 as a DL game for a number of reasons, so I am fine with ranking Dinn and not keeping Rohde, but there's a reason Rohde has attracted the Keep votes he has.
Dinn's a good deal more interesting than Rohde. Doesn't suck/can wall elements/etc, but some those are S5 related. Rohde being a boring one dimensional fighter from a game that's draw below 40% of late strikes me as a extremely good reason to toss him, plot or not. SF being a low interest game in the DL period just compounds the problem.
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What, did it draw below 40% once or something? That doesn't qualify as any type of statistical comparison to speak of. Even taking the last -5- seasons (which is not even a great sampling) the draw is 49%, above 15 games. So trying to use sensationalism to prove your point isn't cutting it.
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This season:
Kazin drew 39% versus FE9
Taya drew 35% versus P3
Odd Eye drew 54% against PS4, and 52% versus Ghaleon
Last season:
May drew 46% against S3
Zynk drew 53% against WA3
Geshp (46) drew:
63% versus FF7
57% versus Lufia 2
46% versus OB
Bowie (44) drew:
57% versus FF7
Peter (41) drew:
51% versus S3
46% versus SH2
51% versus FE8
59% verses FE7
Kiwi drew 49% against CC 87 votes
Kiwi drew 66% against FF4 89
Odd Eye (40) drew:
51% versus BoF1
44% versus DDS
Season 39:
Elric drew 43% versus S2
Taya drew 45% versus TotA
No real usable data before this point, the gap between Elric and Taya's season and the next fighter's is 5 seasons. There are some oddities with this data- namely May/Zynk's week being the biggest one. I'm still not liking what I'm seeing at all from the bit characters and non bosses in general. Kiwi doing that well is nice, but FF4's a pretty perfect crossing. SF2 is struggling the most with new games. That's a bad sign for me, means that our newer voters are not playing the game. Drawing below 40% is extremely hard to do. It happens less than once a season on average, with only one game I can think of (BG) being able to do it on a regular basis. Even Brig/ToE have avoided that one over the years. The PS3/360 porting will help SF2, as will the attention it gets/booting some of the really awful (hi Taya) fighters from the game. Anna did draw below 40% this season versus Dis2, but managed to win the fight.
Draws below SF2, as of S39, my cutoff point for the aforementioned data:
76 VH 5 50.93% 0.00% FE7, FFT, LoD, Suikos
77 Pers2 3 50.81% 66.67% FF4, S3, SO2
78 ToD 9 50.79% 44.44% BGs, DDS, FE8, FE9, S2, S3, S5, TotA
79 OB 14 50.58% 50.00% CT, FE8, FE9, FF4, G1, G2, G3, PKMN, PS2, SF2, SH1, SH3, Suikos, WA
80 DW4 10 50.16% 20.00% AtLC, CC, Disgaea, FF6, G2, G3, PKMN, SH3, XG
81 BoF5 8 50.02% 75.00% GS, Lunar2, Pers3, S1, S3, SD3, WA, WA3
82 Pers 8 49.67% 62.50% BoF1, BoFs, DQ8, G3, S2, SHs, Saga, WA
83 EB 2 49.48% 0.00% AtLC, SD3
84 PS2 10 48.35% 50.00% CT, DDS, Disgaea2, FF5, Lunar2, OB, S3, SH2, SH3, SO2
85 Lufia1 1 48.35% 0.00% LoD
86 LoL2 6 48.02% 33.33% FE7, FF9, PSs, SH2, SH3, TotA
87 LoL 2 47.74% 0.00% G1, G2
88 AtL4 6 46.70% 50.00% FE8, G2, Lufias, PS4, Pers3, VP1
89 ToE 7 45.88% 28.57% DQ8, FE7, LoD, Lufia2, S4, SoA, Suikos
90 BGs 6 43.96% 50.00% FE8, SO2, Suikos, ToD, TotA, VP1
91 Brig 2 42.73% 0.00% LoD, WA
AtL4's has lost people, Pers is a FW game and is getting a remake, Pers2 has lost people, BGs is gone, ToE is losing people, Brig probably should go. Brig/EB/LoL/Lufia 1 have very small sample sizes. DW4 would have been retired two years if not for the SE remake. That leaves... PS2, VH, LoL2, OB, ToD, BoF5. BoF5 bosses are a mess and probably shouldn't have been ranked, like with SF2 the game has a noticeable in cast vote/interest/ability to win split. OB could stand to lose a few PC's but does well on the interest/memorability front besides for Norn/Aisha. ToD's almost always been tolerable in spite of the bad drawing thanks to low cast size and generally not robbing one way or the other. LoL2 hasn't worked out as well as we've liked, but is on the opposite end for memorability and fan interest of SF2. (It's problems are more related to MMXCM in the ranking topic.) VH didn't work out as we would've liked. My fault on that one.
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Results:
Arc the Lad 4:
Bebedora 23-3 88% Retire
Baldur's Gate 2:
Edwin Jaheira, Viconia 23-1 96% Retire
Imoen 20-6 77% Retire
Minsc 20-9 69% Retire
Shining Force:
Gort 27-2 93% Retire
Alef, Gong 26-2 93% Retire
Guntz 25-3 89% Retire
Balbaroy 24-4 86% Retire
Zylo 24-5 83% Retire
Lowe 22-6 79% Retire
Bleu 21-7 75% Retire
Tao 17-11 61% Keep
Ramladu 17-12 59% Keep
Anri 16-12 57% Keep
Mishaela 16-13 55% Keep
Mae 13-12 52% Keep
Kane 13-14 48% Keep
Domingo 11-15 42% Keep
Darksol 11-16 41% Keep
Shining Force 2:
Luke 25-2 93% Retire
Chaz, Elric, Galam, Zynk 24-2 92% Retire
Gerhalt, May 24-3 89% Retire
Kiwi 21-5 81% Retire
Lemon 19-6 76% Retire
Rohde, Taya 20-7 74% Retire
Jaha 18-8 69% Retire
Sheela 17-9 65% Keep
Chester 17-10 63% Keep
Zeon 15-10 60% Keep
Kazin 16-11 59% Keep
Cameela, Geshp, Zalbard 13-13 50% Keep
Sarah 8-19 30% Keep
Slade 6-21 22% Keep
Tales of Eternia:
Rassius 24-3 89% Retire
Shizel 16-5 76% Retire
Chat 17-8 68% Retire
Max 9-17 35% Keep
Valkyrie Profile series:
Freya 15-14 52% Keep
Everyone listed in red is retired from the DL and can not be nominated in Season 50 or beyond. Thanks for everyone who participated, and kept the debate civil.