The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Jo'ou Ranbu on February 14, 2009, 05:04:10 AM
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC)
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs Lavos (CT)
Heavy:
Jack Van Burace (WA1) vs Id (XG)
Saturos (GS) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3)
Middle:
Marle "Nadia" Guardia (CT) vs Titania (FE9)
Kornell (G3) vs Eiko Carol (FF9)
Light:
Rozalin (Dis2) vs Anna Zirski(PS2)
Cleo (S1) vs Peco (BoF3)
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC) - EBO Althena just doesn't have that much offense.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs Lavos (CT) - Yeah, the run was cool. But Lavos just adds up tons of pressure here.
Heavy:
Jack Van Burace (WA1) vs. Id (XG) - I'm not even sure if Jack deals average damage with his second-best damage. He needs to in order to win, and I'm kneejerking against it right now.
Middle:
Kornell (G3) vs Eiko Carol (FF9) - Heal-locks for years and Eiko's struggling to get openings ever. Eiko buffing hype just fails.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Peco (BoF3) - Doesn't absorb Fire? Well then!
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC): Well I'll be. I'd give Ghaleon the win if his physical can 3HKO... pretty close, but nah.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs Lavos (CT): I think one of the bits had a dispel.
Heavy:
Jack Van Burace (WA1) vs Id (XG)
Middle:
Marle "Nadia" Guardia (CT) vs Titania (FE9)
Kornell (G3) vs Eiko Carol (FF9)
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Peco (BoF3)
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC)- Speed? Eh, enough for me to vote against Ghaleon here.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs Lavos (CT)
Heavy:
Jack Van Burace (WA1) vs Id (XG)
Middle:
Kornell (G3) vs Eiko Carol (FF9)- Eiko can't keep all her buffs up at once and have a prayer of damaging Kornell.
Light:
Rozalin (Dis2) vs Anna Zirski(PS2)- Better. Anna's just solid all aorund.
Cleo (S1) vs Peco (BoF3)- Too much HP and annoying status for Cleo to deal with.
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Godlike:
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (ACF) vs Lavos (CT) - ACF Ceci never wins~
Middle:
Marle "Nadia" Guardia (CT) vs Titania (FE9) - Something or other
Light:
Rozalin (Dis2) vs Anna Zirski(PS2) - Phantasy Star 2 always wins
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC)
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs Lavos (CT)- Would Dispel work on her with Anti-Magic. Otherwise, Lavos gives up his first turn, which could potentiall spell trouble.
Heavy:
Jack Van Burace (WA1) vs Id (XG)
Saturos (GS) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3)- Likely 2HKOing, see her as going faster, can heal forever and isn't in much danger otherwise...yeah.
Middle:
Marle "Nadia" Guardia (CT) vs Titania (FE9)- Be happier with Titania being robbed though.
Kornell (G3) vs Eiko Carol (FF9)- Dunno. Eiko does null the Fist's best stuff, so he doesn't like Protect.
Light:
Rozalin (Dis2) vs Anna Zirski(PS2)
Cleo (S1) vs Peco (BoF3)- Don't think Peco has Fire res in the end, but might vote for him anyways with turn 1 Sleep+Heal back to try to avoid the 2HKO. Well, that isn't hard with the 1.5 PC HP.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC) - Ghaleon. Doable without scaling! Chaos Shield alternating with attacks pwns False Althena. She gets one attack in...then never damages him again.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs Lavos (CT) - Lavos. Yay multi-parts and form-chaining.
Heavy:
Jack Van Burace (WA1) vs Id (XG) - Bah, fucking Id. He takes this, though, sadly.
Saturos (GS) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - Saturos. Infinite healing.
Middle:
Marle "Nadia" Guardia (CT) vs Titania (FE9) - Marle.
Kornell (G3) vs Eiko Carol (FF9) - KORNEL BUSTAH!
Light:
Rozalin (Dis2) vs Anna Zirski(PS2) - Anna. FANBI HYPE. Might actually be ok here >_>
Cleo (S1) vs Peco (BoF3) - Peco.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC) - Ow. Steamrolls Ghaleon.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs Lavos (CT) - Cecilia lacks the offense to any of the forms I'd consider legal.
Heavy:
Saturos (GS) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3) - ...Nel, not thinking about this further.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Peco (BoF3) - Blocks Fire, spoils? EDIT: Flame Shield is the shield that boosts his Fire resist. Trying to figure out how it's obtained. EDIT 2: Flame Shield is, as far as I can tell, drop only. Thus I need to think on the match more.
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False Althena has double level speed against Ghaleon now??? (Something i'm not even sure is possible in either Lunar 1 or 2.. through pure speed at least.)
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Considering I don't hold people to TB systems, FA's Ray speed is fast enough - and Ghaleon's speed, so damn bad - that she just fries him up without issue for me. But I'm one of the more oddball people here, ymmv (Yolk milk makes vagabonds) and all.
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Question: Does Dispel hit Cecilia in-game while she has the Magic Parasol equipped? I mean, from my experiences with it... It just absorbed pretty much anything that came from the enemy side or had malevolent intentions, no exceptions, but I could be not remembering correctly.
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Considering I don't hold people to TB systems, FA's Ray speed is fast enough - and Ghaleon's speed, so damn bad - that she just fries him up without issue for me. But I'm one of the more oddball people here, ymmv (Yolk milk makes vagabonds) and all.
I understand why you would see it that way then. I have to ask though.. You do this even when both are from the same game/series/TB system? What I mean is that, yes, I always took most TB systems as just a formal means of battle organization. But unless there was a good reason, I would never assume all TB speed as absolute, and not representational of actual turn/action order. Especially within a system like Lunar's.
Does this mean you see Jean doubling on just about every one of Lemina's turns, or Hiro on almost every other one? (Something that can't happen in either game.) Doesn't this also mean that you have to see Ray as something like 2.4-1 average speed?? (0.0) Can you say "FA for GL champ!"
EDIT:
Please don't take this as a pick at you in any way. Just some musings and curiosity by me.
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Considering I don't hold people to TB systems, FA's Ray speed is fast enough - and Ghaleon's speed, so damn bad - that she just fries him up without issue for me. But I'm one of the more oddball people here, ymmv (Yolk milk makes vagabonds) and all.
I understand why you would see it that way then. I have to ask though.. You do this even when both are from the same game/series/TB system? What I mean is that, yes, I always took most TB systems as just a formal means of battle organization. But unless there was a good reason, I would never assume all TB speed as absolute, and not representational of actual turn/action order. Especially within a system like Lunar's.
Does this mean you see Jean doubling on just about every one of Lemina's turns, or Hiro on almost every other one? (Something that can't happen in either game.) Doesn't this also mean that you have to see Ray as something like 2.4-1 average speed?? (0.0) Can you say "FA for GL champ!"
EDIT:
Please don't take this as a pick at you in any way. Just some musings and curiosity by me.
The speed varies to people, but most people who see it this way will likely say FA as twice as fast as Ghaleon. Of course, it doesn't work this way in game, but it rewards the fact that good TB speed allows you to get in moves before opponents act, which can be pretty important when you have to choose your moves all at once (Example: A slow healer may pick someone to heal in a TB game, only to find a faster enemy has already killed their target before they act, making them waste their turn).
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Although to be fair, FA's speed is dictated by her actions, which do move in a set order in-game, IIRC. One reason I don't respect it much >_>
I also don't allow EXAs if both characters can't do them...not really sure if I'd see FA constantly EXA'ing...Ghaleon is slow, but even Nash doesn't EXA him constantly (which he would at level 50) in-game, so it's odd to see some other TB person doing it. But eh...
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Of course is your average DLer voted that way (that turn-based characters could never be doubled), Ghaleon would be unrankably powerful. So hey.
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Dhyer already explained why a lot of us choose to see those doubleturns. There's a pretty large disadvantage to a slow TB character / advantage to a fast one that isn't reflected in the DL otherwise.
FA's speed does vary by her action but she's usually at least decent on speed, something Ghaleon can't claim.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC): Hmmm. Probably needs 4-5 Rays to do this, but does double constantly to me. Worst case she needs five and never triples, then Ghaleon gets in three physicals and a Hell Wave. This might kill. But Ghaleon needs every assumption here; even one triple or a 4HKO or him not 4HKOing would mean he loses.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs Lavos (CT): Double physical.
Heavy:
Jack Van Burace (WA1) vs Id (XG): I... guess? Could hype waiting for a dodge with his healing, but I think the healing's not quite good enough.
Middle:
Marle "Nadia" Guardia (CT) vs Titania (FE9): Whee haste/confuse.
Kornell (G3) vs Eiko Carol (FF9): Don't think Eiko can deal with a consistent 2HKOing boss.
Light:
Cleo (S1) vs Peco (BoF3): No fire res? Well, Cleo just butchers Peco on a 3-2 then. Don't think even his healing can make up for that, and if it can, the next turn kills. And Peco may have nearly 1.5 PCHP but Int definitely affects MDef and he sucks at that.
Seriously, people.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC): If nothing else, her piss poor defenses seal this fight in Ghaleon's favor.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs Lavos (CT): Yep.
Heavy:
Jack Van Burace (WA1) vs Id (XG): Hate. That's all I can say.
Saturos (GS) vs Nel Zelpher (SO3): Nel's well suited to take out low damage bosses.
Middle:
Marle "Nadia" Guardia (CT) vs Titania (FE9): Think with Provoke, Cure, and Haste, she can just pull this off.
Kornell (G3) vs Eiko Carol (FF9): If FF9 Buffers didn't suck so much on duration, Eiko might stand a chance.
Light:
Rozalin (Dis2) vs Anna Zirski(PS2): Kneejerk.
Cleo (S1) vs Peco (BoF3): Peco does not resist fire. If you allow the Fire Rune, Cleo just 2HKOs pretty soundly as a result.
I don't know WHERE this Fire Absorption came from. BoF3 Fire resistance can be summed up as follows:
Ryu absorbs it through his Dragon Equips.
Garr naturally halves it, immunes it through the Sun Mask
Nina, Momo, and Rei half it through the Sun Mask (this is a case of elemental resists Stacking, hence why Garr gets immunity, but the others merely resist; Garr has innate 4 in Fire, the others innate 2, Sun Mask is +2)
Peco can't use Sun Mask (his best Helmet is storebought halfway through the game, Sun Mask = Storebought in Final Dungeon, do the math), and that's the only legal means of Fire Resist that doesn't occur above.
I believe all the equipment options are even listed in the stat topic so...
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Okay, some further numbercrunching for Cleo/Peco.
Cleo is fast, Peco is slow. 3-2 happens instantly for me (as, for that matter, does a 5-3). If you allow TB doubling at all it shouldn't be that much longer for you.
Peco has 145% average HP. His Rejuvenate + his Regen together restore 23% of his HP. If you can do even 59% to average a turn, you can 3HKO him through this healing.
Cleo hovers right around this figure normally, but with Peco's bad MDef she's well past it.
Sleep? May not even be turn 1 here. If it is, unfortunately for Peco, he needs to hit with it more than once, and it will likely whiff the second time.
Sooo yeah.
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Godlike:
Ghaleon (Lunars) vs False Althena (Lunar:EBC)
I don't let TB double TB, period. FA gets flattened.
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) vs Lavos (CT)
Simple.
Heavy:
Jack Van Burace (WA1) vs Id (XG)
The healing's all he needs against unscaled Id.
Middle:
Light:
Rozalin (Dis2) vs Anna Zirski(PS2)
Yeah, Rozy isn't scary in a duel.
Cleo (S1) vs Peco (BoF3)
No Flame Shield for me, so...I think Cleo manages without doubling? May revise.
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Hmm, looks like a coinflip as to if Titania can successfully kill Marle in one double. Close match. Coin-flip resolve: If Titania fails to kill her, then Marle Provokes, which... means she has a pathetic damage giggling Titania physical incoming, which just might be enough to kill the 3 HP Marle. It'd be funny, at least. (Plus, FE has no damage variance in attacks, so Marle can't heal until Titania does badly on an attack.)
As for the TB speed debate...
Of course is your average DLer voted that way (that turn-based characters could never be doubled), Ghaleon would be unrankably powerful. So hey.
Ghaleon is almost unrankably powerful (though not as bad as Zophar?), but I suppose there has to be somebody at the top. Anyway, to be precise, the issue is when both characters are turn-based - nobody will argue that Tidus shouldn't double Ghaleon like mad, because Tidus is a fast character from a CTB system where that speed actually does double in-game. Nash, however, never actually doubles, so his speed isn't as good as it seems from a strict percentage basis (or Alena, or Aika, etc.). Basically, the speed stats aren't directly comparable. For turn-based characters, it's more like initiative each round, while for CTB characters it's total number of rounds taken.
There's a point to be had that fast/slow TB speed should still be rewarded (though... with first strike as important as it is in the DL, I'd say it generally already is), and additionally allowing TB characters to eventually double each other can break up some stalls in long matches which (correctly) will punish slow healers. So... my personal preference is to let the TB speed still work as is for initiative, but to average that speed with 100% as far as gaining doubles goes (so 110% avg. speed -> 105% avg. speed, and 140%->120%, though only for getting extra turns - the turns they do get are at their normal TB speeds). Also to cap the max turn-based speed at 120%, and the minimum at 80% (=speed faster than 140% is ignored because you're going first, we get it). Arguably it should be even tighter than that - with those caps, Piastol (infinite TB speed) still exactly 3:2s Ghaleon, which just feels odd.
Anyway! That all said. Um, yeah, Ghaleon should slaughter FA here - better durability, CS to absorb an attack. FA isn't even that fast normally anyway, and I certainly don't let FA spam her good damage move (I don't let Ghaleon spam CS or his other options either, but his damage is pretty consistent so it doesn't matter much). I do look for any excuse to vote against Ghaleon I can, and I suppose from a flavor standpoint we could force Ghaleon into his Lunar2 form? Hmm.... assuming the no-magic fight is illegal, seems like FA might win that one. Though not if both of them are on AI (since her damage is far less consistent). Yeah, sticking to a Ghaleon vote.
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No way is Titania doubling Marle. Titania is a point and a half below average speed. Granted, in-game she'd have a level edge, most likely, which would pull her up to average, and she'd also probably snag the Knight Ward for a few levels, which would make her on the speedy side of things... but the former is highly questionable in the DL and the latter is outright illegal. Anyway, that's not fast enough to double much that isn't horrendously slow regardless.
Though not if both of them are on AI (since her damage is far less consistent)
Where does this "FA has bad damage outside Ray?" rumour come from? Both Staff Throw and 4-Orb Attack do 240 damage, a very solid 2HKO (average HP is 312). Her only scrub attack is her poison-inflicting 4HKO physical, which is excused by the fact it inflicts a respectable 20%-HP-leeching poison. (I wouldn't make her use this against a boss.)
She's not losing to Lunar 2 Ghaleon, who is slower with less HP and generally worse damage. Although oddly, despite what you said, it's actually in Ghaleon's favour to allow spammed attacks! Ghaleon resists lightning in this form, which means all of FA's attacks do 240-250 damage, while Ghaleon needs his one 300 damage attack instead of his 180-240 attacks (average HP he faces is notably higher, remember) to be spammed to have a chance of offsetting FA's superior speed and durability.
It's moot since Lunar 1 wins with your speed views, but still.
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There's a point to be had that fast/slow TB speed should still be rewarded (though... with first strike as important as it is in the DL, I'd say it generally already is), and additionally allowing TB characters to eventually double each other can break up some stalls in long matches which (correctly) will punish slow healers. So... my personal preference is to let the TB speed still work as is for initiative, but to average that speed with 100% as far as gaining doubles goes (so 110% avg. speed -> 105% avg. speed, and 140%->120%, though only for getting extra turns - the turns they do get are at their normal TB speeds). Also to cap the max turn-based speed at 120%, and the minimum at 80% (=speed faster than 140% is ignored because you're going first, we get it). Arguably it should be even tighter than that - with those caps, Piastol (infinite TB speed) still exactly 3:2s Ghaleon, which just feels odd.
Anyway! That all said. Um, yeah, Ghaleon should slaughter FA here - better durability, CS to absorb an attack. FA isn't even that fast normally anyway, and I certainly don't let FA spam her good damage move (I don't let Ghaleon spam CS or his other options either, but his damage is pretty consistent so it doesn't matter much). I do look for any excuse to vote against Ghaleon I can, and I suppose from a flavor standpoint we could force Ghaleon into his Lunar2 form? Hmm.... assuming the no-magic fight is illegal, seems like FA might win that one. Though not if both of them are on AI (since her damage is far less consistent). Yeah, sticking to a Ghaleon vote.
I don't tend to see TB speed at being good at gaining doubles either (For example, I don't think that it should be very normal for the best speedster in a TB game to be as fast or faster than Levin), so I can understand not respecting that aspect that much. Not like that really affects Ray's speed much, since it is pretty massive. I could certainly see taking the first TB turn having more affect myself.
While Ghaleon has better defense (Which you do make FA actually hit sometimes now), his MDef cuts in game attack by about 20%, so when she does gets Ray's, they'll still eat through his HP pretty quickly. He should still fall by the time the second Ray comes about. FA and Ghaleon have pretty similar HP (Ghaleon's comes out about 3.5 to me, FA's is 3.33 after her bad defenses are thrown in), so at least throw in the speed gap, and FA still has a pretty good chance when being forced use some physicals too.
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Interesting comments re FA / Ghaleon. Didn't know Lunar2 Ghaleon would resist FA's damage, though it seems unlikely to help. Anyway, mathing it out... I think the average of FA's moves means that she's mildly above average speed, which against snail Ghaleon (at the minimum .8) means she has a 5:4.
FA: Ray
Ghaleon : Physical + CS
FA: Staff Throw, knock down CS
G: Damage (Hell Wave + whatever)
FA: Ray 2
G: Damage
FA: Staff Throw
FA: Ray 3
G: Damage
Hmm... FA might just win after all, actually. Even if Ghaleon delays his Chaos Shield to his second turn to mess with FA's Rays, 2 Rays + 2 Staff Throws are probably enough. I guess Ghaleon needs to have two magic damage combos and a physical kill FA, which... is possible, I guess? On second thought, thanks to that impending double, it's probably not even worth wasting time on CS. Ghaleon's tough enough probably to just go for three damage combos, which would hurt a lot for the ~3x PCHP FA. Not sure, on second thought, but I suspect Ghaleon still squeaks it out.
Re Marle/Titania: Marle is 8 Speed vs. an 11.3 average, which means that taken literally she almost gets doubled by FE average immediately (~3.5 speed beneath average). CT uses smaller numbers, so this comes out even worse in FE-land: apparently FE9 average speed is 22.6. 70% of that -> Marle is 15.82 Spd in FE9 terms, which is way beneath Titania's 21 Speed. And I'd be inclined to give her a bit of a level boost anyway. I guess the CT average could be lowered somewhat by having Crono with the Rainbow over the Swallow and the like, but I don't think it'll help?
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Oh, I suppose that's fair enough. It depends how you translate FE speed. mc once observed that the actual speed numbers are irrelevant. (If you added 1000 to every FE character's speed, nothing would change... well, provided you changed how evade was calculated or everyone would have 2000 more avoid.) The only thing that mattered was the difference between them. Anyway, the solution she proposed was to translate speeds as such:
Real Speed / Average Real Speed = 2^[(FEspeed - Average FEspeed) / 7]
Which may seem weird, but it makes sense if you think about it. A difference of 7 FE speed between two FE characters X and Y is the point where not only does X double Y, but X doubles any character who does not double Y, so it can be thought of as being twice as fast. So a 28 speed FEer has twice the speed of a 21 speed FEer, and four times the speed of a 14 speed FEer.
To illustrate (math warning!), if we take Marle's speed, 8 / 11.3, we can take the base-2 log of that, then multiply by 7, to get her effective FE speed relative to an arbitrary average. This gives us... -3.49. <__< Okay, that's slower than I thought! For some reason I was thinking the CT speed average was lower. Yeah, if you see Titania at all above average then she'd double, even using this.
TL;DR version: There are lots of ways to convert FE speed in the DL, the one I take has Marle just barely not being doubled by average. Closer match than I thought though.
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Ghaleon's highest damage combo is 2x physical + Syphon Soul. His physicals one-shot average when used twice with Syphon Soul.
Actually, that whole combo is...250 or so damage (250 with 2x 90 damage physicals and 70 damage Syphon Soul). Average HP for that point based on Gourry's notes is 230 or so.
Moot for me since I basically see Ghaleon using Chaos Shield and basically absorbing all her damage due to no EXAs, but...mmm...still close. Depends on how you see her durability, I guess.
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Don't forget, guys, that if you don't allow move spamming Chaos Shield is one of the major non-factors. Like Ray it has a "once every 5 turns" restriction in game.
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Oh, I suppose that's fair enough. It depends how you translate FE speed. mc once observed that the actual speed numbers are irrelevant. (If you added 1000 to every FE character's speed, nothing would change... well, provided you changed how evade was calculated or everyone would have 2000 more avoid.) The only thing that mattered was the difference between them. Anyway, the solution she proposed was to translate speeds as such:
Real Speed / Average Real Speed = 2^[(FEspeed - Average FEspeed) / 7]
The way I've been doing it is to take an FE character's speed to a formula like this with a /4, and then just saying they double anything they have 2x the speed of and are doubled by anyone who has 2x their speed. So someone who is 8 points above would double anyone up to 2x CTB speed. This basically gives the opponent the ability to stop or get doubled without making CTB speed too much of a factor (since people with 8+ above average speed double anything this side of Belial still, which fits). Even someone six points above average needs their opponent to be above 142% speed to stop the double.
I'll point out that with a /7, you have the case where a character with 7 above average speed stops doubling anyone that is even slightly above average speed, though for some reason that doesn't seem to happen if you convert CTB speed to FE speed that way? Odd.
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What does CTB stand for?
I know what it refers to, but I realize that I still don't what the initials are actually short for.
Not particularly related to anything else in this topic.
-Djinn
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IIRC, it's Conditional Turn Based. Which doesn't really make much sense as a label, but FFX used it, and FFX pretty much established CTB as a popular gameplay system in the PS2-on era, so it sticks.
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I've always just thought of it as clocktick based.
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Certainly a more sensible acronym!
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NEB's correct, but Clock Tick Based is what I always use since it actually makes sense. And FFT uses "clock ticks" all over the place, IIRC, and it came out before FFX!
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Conditional Turn Based always made sense to me, if you take turn as an individual meaning, instead of a global meaning (i.e., turn is action, not turn for every character in the battle). Whomever takes turns is based on certain conditions (speed, actions used, etc.).
Of course, I am weird, so that might be why I find it easy to understand >_>
Clock-tick, in general, to someone not familiar with mechanics, makes no sense. I think the CTB meaning makes more sense than Clock-Tick.