The RPG Duelling League
RPGDL Games => Forum Games => Topic started by: QuietRain on March 24, 2009, 08:10:07 PM
-
The world of Pokemon is varied, with hundreds upon hundreds of Pokemon types living varied and enthusiastic lives. Whether wild, employed or being trained by a Trainer, Pokemon are the creatures that make the world go round. But no world is idyllic.
When it was rumored that Team Magma, that had attempted to create a world of pure land, had survived their first defeat by a singularly powerful trainer, at first no one thought they were a renewed threat. Then came rumors that Magma was attempting to retrieve an ancient relic in the sands of a previously unknown island chain. Dozens of trainers and their Pokemon flew at once to prevent whatever evil plots they were planning.
But tragedy struck. A group of thirty trainers and Pokemon found each other at the entrance to the temple that held the ancient relic. It was the legends of this relic that first inspired the Pokeball technology. It is said that the stone that was laid to rest in the ancient temple can command any Pokemon, even the ancient Legendaries and creator Pokemon. As the battle began, with the Magma members dressed as normal Trainers to allay suspicion, a horrible earthquake rattled the island. People and Pokemon were tossed about and many were drowned and crushed by falling debris. At the end, only twenty Pokemon and not a single trainer remained alive.
But Pokemon are not mere animals. They know what is at stake. If any of the remaining Pokemon served Magma, they will undoubtedly delve into the temple to retrieve the relic for their master’s Team. And the good Pokemon that remained knew they could never allow it. But just who…was who? For any Pokemon can be good…or evil if trained wrong. The twenty Pokemon looked at each other and began to try to decipher just who among them was friend and who was foe.
And while no Pokemon truly dies in these battles, it is possible to overwhelm them with attacks and leave them so injured as to be unable to do anything. There IS no Pokemon Center on this island to heal them back. By the time you heal on your own, everything will be over. Hopefully for the best.
*******************************************************************
NOTE: Some of these rules HAVE been changed from the standard. Please read them.
- The game begins during day phase. One night phase has already occurred and the results of which have been transmitted to those who took actions (if any). No NKs will be allowed during the first night phase.
- A Wall of Words 20th lvl caster is not only unfun to type, it’s abhorrent to read. Please avoid this. I’m not putting a word restriction on the game, but I’m asking nicely.
- No editing your posts. This will result in modkill.
- There are no scripted events.
- No talking about the game outside of the thread unless your role specifically states that you may.
- No posting during game nights.
- No spectator posts.
- Do not directly quote your role PM or conversations with the mod. Paraphrase is okay. Check with me before posting if you're unsure. This will result in a Modkill.
- There are no players or parties that would cause the game to end Day 1 or Night 1.
- PLAY TO WIN. Failure to at least put in an effort ruins the game for everyone else. Sabotaging your side deliberately or through massive apathy will get you modkilled. I am not afraid to modkill. Please keep this in mind.
-Modkills due to unexpected inactivity at the start of game will not result in the end of the day, however any modkills after Day 1 will.
- You do not need to post "in character" or do anything special regarding flavor. If you want to, it's fine, but it may complicate the game or give away your role, which is generally bad.
- There are no post restrictions in this game.
- No players have "hidden" abilities that were not included in their role PM. Seriously. Even sanity and variation information. It’s all there. If you’re unclear, ask. I am not keeping any role information from players about their own roles.
- If you’re scum and you die, you WILL be removed from the scum chat.
- Vote in the standard ##Vote: Playername format. PLEASE be kind to your mods and ##UNVOTE. While forgetting to unvote will not cancel your vote, it may mess up our tally by seemingly giving people an extra vote where they simply forgot to unvote.
- No Lynch is NOT a viable vote.
- Day 1 will last 36 hours. All subsequent days (excluding LYLO) will last 48. You may make a SINGLE ##EXTENSION request per day if necessary. Majority vote will extend the day 24 hours. If a majority vote has not been reached by the end of the day, the player with the most votes will be lynched. This will NOT change in later days. If there is a tie, while I am not privy to using Hatbot from work, I do have a dice roller of my own who is equally vile and hateful, and will randomly choose your lynch. Do NOT allow this. Kill by majority. You get more information this way. Nights will last 24 hours max. If you do not provide an action by that point, you forfeit it for the night.
-CIVILITY is your friend. I’m not asking anyone to tiptoe around or even be polite (Miss Manners style), but keep your arguments and heated exchanges to the issues at hand, not taking personal stabs at each other. It’s a game. Keep it that way. Please refer to the line above about my willingness to modkill. If you’re driving players from the game, I will modkill you. Again, not saying be nice, just be civil.
- LYLO or potential LYLO will be announced.
- Complete role (including sanity and variation) & alignment information will be revealed on flip.
- Scum are not required to NK.
- There may or may not be third parties.
- If there are any questions, you can send PMs to Gatewalker as well as myself, since he's co-modding. AIM: QuietRainWolf & DarkwindStriker.
Active Players
4) Excal
6) Sir Alex
10) Meeple
11) Deltaflyer2k8
Knocked Out Players
Sylon
SnowFire
EvilTom
Carthrat
Yoshiken
Ryogo
Xanth
Bardiche
Strago
OblivionKnight
Kilgamayan
Nietz
Good luck and happy hunting. The first day dawns now.
With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
-
...Hi!
Yay for being such a crap Pokemon! Maybe I can, I dunno, find some Magikarp to start beating up around here...
-
##VOTE: Yoshiken
Already expressing his aggression by saying he wants to beat up a Magikarp. And let us not forget that Team Magma has had a long-standing rivalry with Team Aqua. And what would Magikarp belong to...?
Gentlemen, our course is clear.
-
##Vote: Snowfire
Snowfire? More like Snowmagma, I bet.
.
And something to keep in mind from the start is the lack of sudden death this time. Maybe you guys are used to it, but I'm not, and we've ran into sudden death more than once by a bunch lately.
-
Mmm...
Long time, now back in mafia. This should be fun.
As of right now
##Vote: Carthrat
He's always scum, except when he's not. But he's Australian. He has to be a criminal. I mean, he's descended from them!
</blatant racism>
-
##Vote: OK
Resorting to old stale memes already? Figured that content that you couldn't pre-script may give away too much?! We demand the truth!
Also Xanth, your logic is flawed! FLAWED, I say! Sure, Snowfire may be Fire/Ice, and Magma loves their fire types. But have you actually seen them ever use any Ice types? I cannot believe such an elementary mistake came from someone of your stature, which makes me wonder, what are you trying to accomplish with that obvious bluff.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(1): Bardiche
Snowfire(1): Xanth
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(1): Excal
-
Team Magma? Hundreds of pokey-mans? Jeez. It's been a long time since I played any of these, huh?
And 36 hours! Huh. This'll be interesting.
-
##Vote: Kilgamayan
For using my interest in Mafia to lure me back into any thing Pokemon.
-
OBJECTION!
Don't get on the co-mod's bad side by INSULTING POKEMON!
Er, uh, this is a votecount post... clearly... >_> <_<
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(1): Bardiche
Snowfire(1): Xanth
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(1): Excal
Kilgamayan(1): Nietz
-
##VOTE: SnowFire
Doctor... I have to confess. You see.... the pokeymans. I have to crush them all. Make them bend to my will. They seem innocuous enough, bouncing about in their environments, squeaking their names... but I can't stand them. It's like I'm possessed by some alien, burning desire to lock them all inside small red and white balls.... I've no idea where it came from. And the spunky 10-year olds who corral them! I... I want to challenge them to highly dangerous duels. It can't be healthy. Stop me before I do something I regret. I don't know what's wrong with me.
Wait... so you say such an attitude is common on this plane? And perfectly well accepted as normal?
Oh. Well then.
##UNVOTE: SnowFire
-
##Vote: OK omgus
Also, I'm descended from scottish barbarians and english colonialist noblemen living in India.
-
##Vote: Sylon
Welcome to DL Mafia!
Same to Nietz, but he's posted.
Hugs!
-
##Vote: Deltaflyer2k8
You have numbers in your name. You are different.
-
##Vote: Sylon How dare you vote for my good friend Delta!?!
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(1): Bardiche
Snowfire(1): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(2): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(1): Nietz
Sylon(2): SirAlex, EvilTom
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon
-
##Vote: Xanth
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN
-
Right... so, 1/3 of day one is done and we've got two things, jack, and all. So let's see if we can't get something moving.
##Unvote: OK, ##Vote: Sylon
Because leaving things to hatbot is bad, and having a clear frontrunner is in everyone's best interests.
-
So... Day 1 seems as good a time as any to get random chatter down; if people are talking then at least something interesting might come up. If you ride the PATH train (the train between Newark, Hoboken, and New York City), they have warnings on the doors that connect the cars to not open them and fall to your doom on the tracks. These include Spanish translations, of course. I distinctly recall reading:
La via del tren es peligrosa.
Sure, one translation would be "the train tracks are dangerous," but for a more Hong Kong action movie flavor, it could also be translated "The Way of the Train is dangerous (young grasshopper)." A true statement indeed, since getting hit by the full force of a speeding train will flatten all but the toughest opponents. Of course, a train-style fighter charging in a straight line will also be evaded by all but the dumbest opponents. So... more dangerous for those who practice the art, certainly, since knowing how this works in the movies there'll be a brick wall behind the dodging hero that you slam yourself into, and then you realize that you were just the comic relief warmup fight.
Why on earth am I yammering about this? Because my Pokemon is a train-style fighter. Yes, I have one Linoon, which runs at high speed (60mph!) at its targets but ONLY IN STRAIGHT LINES (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Linoone_(Pok%C3%A9mon)). Apparently Linoon is OWNED BY GENTLY CURVING PATHS. No really.
Still, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Today Linoon, tomorrow Linoon and Magikarp, next Thursday... probably more Magikarps. We'll get to "'em all" later, I suppose. All the pokemon shall be crushed under my booted heel kept safe inside Pokeballs, forever. Though... upon reading the flavor more carefully, perhaps I won't. It seems that my dreams of a vast Pokempire ended before they could start, as we're all dead. (I have updated my avatar accordingly.) Alas, poor SnowFire... he got a Linoon and was crushed in a freak landslide. Well, I continue onward in spirit from the training I gave my Linoon, and also the fact that I'm going to haunt this island until the Magma Pokemon are annihilated.
(QR has confirmed that the roles are random, so there's no harm in declaring your Pokemon now, by the way.)
On a more serious note... the original recruitment thread said there would be two scum teams, Team Magama and Team Aqua. I assume that Team Aqua is out of commission, its snow melted to Magma's fire? Or is that classified? (If we know there are two scum teams openly, that will interestingly change things, since active scum-hunting isn't as much a guarantee of towniness - the scum certainly want to lynch each other, too.)
-
You wrote a large wall of text for just three lines of actual contribution? I do hope that was all joke-stage related stuff. Also, you suck at funnies. Go figure why I hate pokemon. Still, mafia is a game of mafia, and I think we have goons to find. I say we call for serious voting and discussion now.
Snowfire:
Right... so, 1/3 of day one is done and we've got two things, jack, and all. So let's see if we can't get something moving.
I believe that this was a call to begin serious mafia, and yet you go to write a full-on wall of text immediatly afterwards with only three lines. Can you please explain this for me? Day one may mean random chatter, but when people start wanting serious mafia to start, you should consider heeding this and also wanting it, because the more time town has in a day, the more time to lynch scum.
It should be rather interesting to see what happens in this game, with possibly two scum teams operating.
-
And yes, that was a joke (and my only one) when I said you suck at funnies. I do not mean it in truth, it is just that I didn't laugh. :-\
-
Yeah, Delta, that was getting well on for incivility. Distaste for the theme is no excuse. At least you kinda-sorta caught yourself on it, but even then.
The only thing that really sticks out from the thread to me so far (other than the general lack of content, but go figure, it's not like I'm any better) is Snow's joke suicide vote. Those read badly even (especially?) in jest. I still don't really get how I'm supposed to react to an early vote-leader at this point, so I'm declaring flipping my joke vote to a real vote on the basis of this mild indicator.
I'm not really sure what to make of the secondary scum team thing, given the contradictory Word of Mod. Unless we get direct confirmation one way or the other, we're just going to get distracted trying to pick out parts of the game set up without being sure, which sounds like a bad idea. Just be cautious - you should be anyway, given the potential for ITP.
-
Snow's suicide vote is just another dumb thing in a long line of dumb things done in mafia games that aren't tells one way or the other.
##Unvote, ##Vote: Sylon sure let's lynch Sylon why not. Voting for him because people are voting for him.
-
Snow's suicide vote is just another dumb thing in a long line of dumb things done in mafia games that aren't tells one way or the other.
sure let's lynch Sylon why not. Voting for him because people are voting for him.
These are pretty much my thoughts as well. Not a lot going on so far. Mod confirmation on multiple scum teams would be nice to have indeed - if true that means we're facing no less than four scum total (since I doubt a team would have only one member), but divided, so this'll be a game more about looking for general scumtells than connections. IF there are multiple teams and that didn't change in the setup sometime.
-
Mafia Edit - Shuckle is not my actual pokemon. I just like it (more than the one I was assigned. >_>)
-
Good morning, world. Sigh. Day 1 is such a load of bollocks.
Since our time is markedly shorter than usual, I find myself more drawn to the "Just Lynch Somebody Already" approach than I usually am. That said... well, no. I guess I thought I agreed with that tactic, but now in the space of a sentence I've changed my mind. Because we're looking at a Day 1 that ends 18 hours (right? I'm bad at math) from now and has no chance -- barring extension shenanigans -- of down-to-the-wire train nonsense in order to get a majority meeting a deadline, I suppose I don't see why we need to rush into nailing anybody just yet. Talking about this jazz is our only reliable anti-Magma* tool, so let's not be so quick to end the day.
*And Aqua? Thirding that query about multiple scum teams.
Why is everyone so hot to lynch Sylon, anyway? Are there many copies? Do they have a plan?
-
Holy crap, the game started and I didn't know about it!
...that said, I have to actually go back and read everyone's posts. I'm mostly just posting this for a "yeah, I'm alive, don't mod-kill me just yet!" thing.
So yeah, I'll give a "substantial" (much as you can for Day 1) post in a bit, just felt people might find it weird I wasn't doing anything considering I'm well, me (I don't necessarily mean in a Mafia suspicious way, I just mean in a "Did Meeple forget the game exists? Replacement!" kind of way)
-
Ok, actually did some reading! I thought there may have actually been SOMETHING that has gone on, given Snowfire's wall of text, but now I see that was just some sort of really, comprehensively thought out joke post with some mild seriousness at the end.
Reactions to it might be worth looking into. Delta's seems pretty much just a generic reaction, going on about "You made a big wall of text just for a few serious lines at the end? You're crazy!" so yeah, not seeing anything wrong with that.
Xanth...I find odd though. Of all things, he goes after Snowfire's Vote on himself...which he removed INSTANTLY IN THE SAME POST, making the vote effectively not there, which I think, as Rat pointed out, was just the silly ridiculous shenanigans of early day 1; all this shit happens for no good reason, just for amusement! I dunno, strikes me as weird that he'd attack something so obviously intentionally silly, during a stage in the game where there is nothing serious.
So yeah, why not, I don't have much else to go on, though "Vote on Sylon cause he has votes" just to get a lynch in doesn't seem like a bad idea if the day stretches out a little longer, but for now...
##Vote: Xanth
----
OOC, if Snowfire was -1 to Hammer and did that, would he get hammered, or do votes get counted up at the *END* of the post? This is just general mafia mechanics discussion here, I highly doubt a situation like this would occur, cause no one would be stupid enough to pull a joke stunt like that if they're -1 to Hammer.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(1): Bardiche
Snowfire(1): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(1): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard
-
Meeple, you're reading a different section of game theory from me. The point about self-voting is less about actually having a vote on yourself as it is about not interacting with other people. The benefits of it for scum are an even more minimalistic track to follow posthumously. It reads worse than simply not taking part in the joke phase as it looks like you're trying to actively take part without actually doing anything. The fact that Snow didn't actually keep a vote down on himself is completely irrelevant to the fact that he took part in the joke vote phase without actually taking part.
Yes, joke phase, shmoke phase, it's not like town are incapable of being random in this manner, and sure it's not the linchpin of a lynch or anything (even I called it no more than a 'mild indicator'), but it was the most outstanding element from the start of day one in my eyes, and still looks better than the roulette spin that's put Sylon out in front.
In turn, I'm a little bit concerned about the sensationalistic tone of your post. Also note that we don't have to get a majority to get a lynch - a plurality at time up is fine too - so the prospect of 'voting Sylon just to make sure we get a lynch' is not sound.
(and yes, in your outlined situation Snow would indeed be lynched. See how his vote turns up on vote counts: it technically counted for an instant, it should just never matter)
-
Huh, yeah. I'll admit that when it happened, Snow doing a self-vote was a pretty notable thing, and combined with the insane joke post after it. Sadly, I do mostly agree with Rat, that I'm not sure how it's a tell one way or the other, but it's also one of the best things we have so far, and I would gladly switch to him right now if it weren't for two things.
Namely, I think the reactions to the Sylon train are fascinating, give us something we wouldn't get otherwise, and generally it is currently still helpful. And I don't think it would continue to be so if undercut now. And secondly, I should be back with enough time left in order to participate fully in day end. So, I'll be able to react accordingly once everyone's had time to react.
And, yes. Seconding Xanth on the matter of fact way Meeple says he'll just pile on. Suggests the rules weren't read closely, nor all of the posts since there was at least one reference to no hatbotting, which doesn't happen if there's enforced no lynch at day end if majority isn't reached. Well, either that, or it's there as an excuse to just pile on if need be. At least everyone else there is either a joke vote or hasn't expressed interest in anyone they find there's a case on.
-
I believe the point of knocking on self-voting is that you shouldn't be voting for the one person you're 100% sure isn't scum (you) (assuming you're town, of course).
So I see a Sylon train, a silly song-and-dance by SnowFire and a self-vote attack by Xanth.
- The Sylon train will do as all trains of its ilk do - I'm content to watch it play out.
- SnowFire's useless WoT is annoying in that I ended up wasting time reading the whole thing, but is it actually bad? He's going to have to contribute eventually, and if he keeps trying that song-and-dance shtick said wall will likely only be used against him. I don't see how ScumFire benefits from it.
- Xanth attacks a self-vote that was unvoted in the same post - and for the wrong reason to boot. This could be Early Day 1™ Case, it could be trying to find anything he can latch onto. I can't see a reason to think SnowFire's WoT worse than this, so I'm content leaving my vote (no longer a joke) where it is.
-
I don't like how Excal trumpets about the usefulness of the Sylon train, stating it as if he is some bystander awaiting all the others to react. My right honourable friend, it feels to me like a cop-out to simply avoid having to do anything unless in response to others.
##VOTE: Meeple, funny how that works out given the previous game. However, though "Vote on Sylon cause he has votes" just to get a lynch in doesn't seem like a bad idea if the day stretches out a little longer, but for now...
the issue I take with this citation of your post is your assertion that voting on Sylon just to get a lynch in is in no way, shape or form a good idea to me. In fact, it's a terrible idea and undoubtedly not at all the goal.
My second issue is that we will get a lynch either way, as there is no "No Lynch" option. Your logic therein confuses me.
Thirdly, I do not take it well how you mention something about the "day stretching on", as it is Day 1. The more posts people make, the more posts we can examine in the following days, which gives us more information. Information is key in this game, I see no reason to prematurely end Day 1 for a random lynch.
-
Grammar correction, the line after the citation should, of course, read:
"the issue I take with this citation of your post is your assertion that voting on Sylon just to get a lynch in is a good idea. In no way, shape or form is this a good ide to me. In fact, it's a terrible idea and undoubtedly not at all the goal of the present train."
-
formalities
##UNVOTE: Yoshiken
##VOTE: Meeple
-
You think so, Bard? Honestly, one person can't do much at the beginning of day 1. You need reactions so that you can try and dig out how people think. Take a look at where we were when that third vote went on Sylon. The most suspicious thing was Bard's self vote. It isn't until we get Meeple and Xanth discussing Snow's antics (half of which happened after the Sylon train started) that we begin to have anything outside of reactions to a big train that can actually be used.
So, yes. You're right. People should totally try and keep pro-active and be useful. But, no matter how active you are, if people haven't actually posted anything but jokes of varying degrees of freshness, then there's little useful to make an opinion from.
-
I hold that truth to be self-evident: you can't make cases out of simple jokes and jests. But all the same I do not like it when people actively state they're going to await other people's actions before taking action themselves, knowing full-well other people are faced with the same dilemma.
Xanth and Meeple case is, by the way, unconnected to the Sylon train and therefore your argument therein is null and void. The Sylon train has given us nothing of value for discussion--you can hardly argue a random lynch train.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(1): Bardiche
Snowfire(1): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(1): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard
Meepleard: Bardiche
Mod Clarification as per request: Nothing has changed from when the setup was announced til now except that a few Pokemon were swapped out for other Pokemon for my own amusement. Everything stated in the original interest thread is correct.
-
Given how clearly the Magma/Aqua was announced in the interest thread, I'll take that as a 'yes' even with the one-sided flavour at the start of the thread.
Sylon: can we actually hear from you? I've seen you lurking the board repeatedly through the day, but not a peep out of you here. I know there's not much you can say in your defence of a roulette lynch on you, but it's an odd time to be silent nonetheless.
Kilga: I have little else to add. It is a start of day one thread, and one that I felt was worth pursuing, but seems to be going precisely nowhere given neither Snow around (time and work schedule, I'm sure) nor much directly related discussion. To answer your question, sure, a theoretical scumSnow would eventually have to contribute or get cut, but benefits in the meantime by not needing to do so now or get caught by the simple measures people tend to fall to on day one. Also, your rationale ('doing something that would make sense for town or scum in equal parts') seems worse than the one you're hitting me for ('doing something that is slightly tipped into scummy').
I still hold it as stronger than a lot out there at the moment, but this looks like the time to do:
##Unvote: Snowfire
##Vote: Meeplelard
Between the clear lack of momentum on the former, narrowing down the field in a meaningful way given the press of time, and just by simple comparison. Meeple's is the only serious push that I can get behind at this point, assuming that Sylon breaks his silence sensibly. I have nothing to add on Meeple since my previous post.
I don't really have much in the way of reads otherwise. Bard reads slightly town, Delta looks a little bad, my Excal scanner is still overheating from last game, and plenty of people just need to be here more first (Ryogo's the only complete absentee, but others have just been here for the start and no more).
I'll still be around on and off through the afternoon and evening, but will almost certainly miss the last bunch of hours to sleep, so I'm looking to shore things up by then, rather than closer to the deadline.
-
Also, your rationale ('doing something that would make sense for town or scum in equal parts') seems worse than the one you're hitting me for ('doing something that is slightly tipped into scummy').
Disregard that, that's blatantly unfair of me. Obviously you believe that the self-vote is a completely neutral tag or we wouldn't be here in the first place.
-
Wait. What the? There's no hurry, because... oh. The time for Day 1 used to be 72 hours! Ugh. So now at 36 hours it's even less than a regular day? Not quite everything is in the same as the original post...
##EXTENSION
I remember wondering if Excal was crazy from his post, since we were obviously only a 1/3 done with a real life day at that point, but only 1/9 into Mafia Day 1. (And yes, I reread the rules. Changing a number was a subtle change I missed.)
Anyway, yes, Day 1 sucks, etc., but it'll suck more in retrospect if we don't have at least some time to sort things out. Let's have an extension - I don't believe Ryogo's posted at all, and quite a few people haven't posted past the joke votes phase. We need to get some idea of where people stand. Since I got burned on this before, can I request that others either vote for the extension as well, or outright say "Sorry, I don't think we need one?" Last time I tried this, in Simpsons Mafia, it just kind of got ignored.
---
Delta: There are... so many things I disagree with in your post. I'll try to be brief.
* I was composing that message before Excal had even posted. Check the timestamps.
* Even after I saw Excal's post, if silly posts have no place on RL Day 1 of a Mafia game, then where do they have a place? It is a game, after all.
* Joke votes and rambling introduction posts actually do have a purpose, and serve a pro-town role. Most importantly, they give town something to work with so that we can vote on each other. Detecting scum to some extent is a matter of how they interact, so we need an excuse to chat. If nobody starts anything then we're stuck sitting around staring at each other. Go ahead and vote me because you find something suspicious in my post, sure, but please don't criticize me for *making* it.
* If that qualifies as a Wall of Words... just compare it to some of the posts in earlier games. (Same to Kilgamayan - am I totally insane here? That post isn't long at all...)
* As far as contentless, that post had literally nothing to work with but Excal and jokevotes, so yeah. I made do with pointing out that Aqua/Magma deal.
* You might have noticed I was one of the last people to sign up for the game. I'm not a Pokemon fan either. But... any setting has some value. I think I'll quite enjoy my time as a ghost overlord of the Temple isle.
---
Anyway. Srs bizness time I guess. I was hoping that other people would post more get-things-started-blather, and then we could pick through the most suspicious of the blather, or at least we'd know each other Pokemon types, but it seems 'tis not to be.
Sylon train: I agree with Excal, put somebody on the spot, get things moving. How suspicious this is will depend on how Sylon responds (and flips if we end up lynching). I'd vote Sylon myself, but there's a considerable number of votes there already and I don't want to move too close to hammer.
SnowFire suspicions: Xanth is right, a self-vote does give me 0.1 scum points / 10. It's not actually right here, of course, but Day 1 (TM).
Delta: So... I try to get things moving with a more inane post (though with some serious parts tacked on), and you jump on it immediately. But you don't vote me either. In fact you haven't voted for anyone at all. It's Day 1, do something, anything, to get things moving. If you thought I was authentically suspicious you should have voted me, not merely attacked me. I find *this* mildly suspicious (by Day 1 (TM) standards) So...
##VOTE Deltaflyer[/b
(Ninja'd by Xanth, but... nothing in particular to respond to. Yeah, I didn't get a chance to look this morning, so I actually did come home over lunch today. Hopefully this post should provide some non-joke material as to me.)
-
Post to say I'm still here and my thoughts on the recent developments (as minimal as they are. >_>)
As much as it'd be appreciated, I don't think we're gonna get any clarification on 3rd-parties past the opening post's "There may or may not be third parties." Which sucks.
I'm really not seeing why Sylon's Stockpiling votes at all, other than "Why not?" which doesn't appeal to me - although I'm more the person to sit and Safeguard over making a Quick Attack.
Xanth's post reads to me as he says - not a huge Uproar, just the best available - a Last Resort, if you will.
Delta, on the other hand, seems quite overly aggressive - not something that reads well to me - and is probably one of the better things to go by so far.
Meeple's post does strike me as quite odd, but nowhere near as much as Delta's.
So, simply because it is the best course of action so far, in my opinion:
##Vote: Delta
It's worth us not lynching anyone until deadline, simply for the fact that that gives us more time to Chatter and come up with something to be used later on.
Finally, just in case, I'll post this now - my internet's been hideously unreliable lately, so I might disappear over the next 4-5 days. My trainer dad should be getting a new modem/connection, just in case, but I might be around less over the next few days. Thankfully, I'll be able to post from college, so long as there's no swearing in the topic (Damn college filter...) so I won't have to Withdraw. If I can't access the topic from college, then I'll PM a mod about it.
P.S. Excuse the pun-ny comments throughout this post.
Xanth & Snow Ninjas - No new comments on Xanth's post. Seems Snow's post says a lot of the same as mine, so... what a waste it was, me typing this all up. >_>
[end Ninja]
Now, off to find me an avatar for my (utterly useless) (Bug >.<) Pokemon. =P
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(1): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(1): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat
Deltaflyer2k8(2): Sylon, Snowfire
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard
Meeplelard(2): Bardiche, Xanth
-
Ah, forgot to add. I'm with Snow on the Day1 being too short thing.
##Extension
We've not really got anything solid yet, and I don't see that Transform-ing too much soon, so seems like an extension to the day is the best approach.
(Yes, the Pokemon attack jokes will (hopefully) continue throughout.)
(Also, my vote is missing from that update. ^^'')
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(0): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(1): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat
Deltaflyer2k8(3): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard
Meeplelard(2): Bardiche, Xanth
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(2) : SnowFire, Yoshiken
-
What exactly makes you feel as though Delta was being overly aggressive, Yoshiken? Was it the tone of the post or specific lines in it?
-
The tone of it, primarily. Sure, Snow carried on with the joke stage, but to attack him on that despite it being the first post since the first call for serious mafia seems somewhat ridiculous.
However, looking back again, he then complains about a lack of serious posting & the fact that Snow made a long post to say very little, yet then gives us an Encore, saying the same thing two or three times in that post.
Finally, to finish off, he... doesn't comment on anyone or anything else. If you're gonna Lock On to someone else for not being serious, it's probably better to at least lend a Helping Hand yourself...
(Oh, and the poll count is still out - I voted Delta, not Meeple.)
-
Uh. Going to have to disagree with your "guess we'll never know" assessment, Yoshiken. QR's verdict seems pretty clear to me:
Also, this is role-madness. But not in the way you’ll likely think. For one thing, I’m being up front about part of the setup. This is Pokemon. There is a Team Magma scum team and a Team Aqua scum team.
Mod Clarification as per request: Nothing has changed from when the setup was announced til now except that a few Pokemon were swapped out for other Pokemon for my own amusement. Everything stated in the original interest thread is correct.
I guess it's true that there might be some fourth non-Scum non-Town party out there, but it's a little too early to start twisting ourselves in knows over that, so: there are two scum teams, unless there's some other way to interpret our lovely mod that I'm somehow missing entirely.
Can't say I'm a big fan of extending the day just yet. For all that I don't think we should be in a rush to end it prematurely, I'm also aware (perhaps too much so) of how easily people can get fatigued/frustrated by Mafia 'round these parts. Setting a precedent for extending days makes that more likely. And fatigue categorically hurts town, in my 'sperience.
Of course we also have... twelve hours left? Oof. Blurg. Et cetera.
Eh, I'm not really seeing the validity of wagging a finger at Delta for the tone of his post. After all, he apologized for the only potentially-offensive bit before anyone called him out. Looks like a wash to me.
Sylon train looks as bad as all Day 1 "let's lynch any person for info" trains do to me. Which is to say that I understand the impulse but can never bring myself to trust it.
Meep and Xanth are the others with multiple votes cast against them? I shall take a look.
-
Ahh, fair enough. I was looking at the opening post instead of the interest topic post. ^^'
-
OBJECTION!
Don't get on the co-mod's bad side by INSULTING POKEMON!
Not at all. I had my period of PokeAddiction, and am only afraid I might fall into it again. (But that'd be kinda hard because there's so damn many of them now that it's too confusing).
Anyway, srs bsns.
##Unvote
I didn't like the way Meeple encouraged a possible Sylon lynch while voting for Xanth. His points against Xanth seemed too much of a "gotcha" to me, and the encouragement of the Sylon train looks like bait for another scum to make a mistake.
I definitely wasn't up for voting Sylon for inactivity, but seeing this:
Sylon: can we actually hear from you? I've seen you lurking the board repeatedly through the day, but not a peep out of you here. I know there's not much you can say in your defence of a roulette lynch on you, but it's an odd time to be silent nonetheless.
If that's true, then Sylon's (lack of) actions becomes definitely suspicious.
Anyway, will hold on vote until Sylon has something to say.
Also, ##Extension.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(0): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat
Deltaflyer2k8(3): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard
Meeplelard(2): Bardiche, Xanth
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(3) : SnowFire, Yoshiken, Nietz
-
Mrff. Most of the actual arguments being leveraged against those with multiple votes seem pretty graspy and forced, to me. Of the trains or semi-trains that we have rolling, a vote against Meeple right now would make the most sense to me, I suppose, for the reasons Bard presented. Then again, Meeple also didn't seem to realize the game had started for some time, which jives with the idea that he hadn't really fully considered that we don't need a majority to lynch, which makes his action seem less malicious. I love it when I talk myself out of doing what I'd intended a sentence ago!
Fuck me, I really don't have a read on anybody.
-
I find it amusing that SnowFire talked about how Day 1 sucks right after voting to extend it.
I'm not sure I understand exactly what Xanth is saying in his response to me but I don't have the time to read it closely right now. I'll get to it after my short shift today.
Can we get Deadline ETAs in post counts?
-
First off, ##Unvote Deltaflyer2k8
---
Can't really say anything about the train on myself- It does consist entirely of joke votes, after all.
Sylon: can we actually hear from you? I've seen you lurking the board repeatedly through the day, but not a peep out of you here. I know there's not much you can say in your defence of a roulette lynch on you, but it's an odd time to be silent nonetheless.
My apologies. I haven't been feeling well these few days, and thought I would put off posting until I could think coherently.
So yeah, why not, I don't have much else to go on, though "Vote on Sylon cause he has votes" just to get a lynch in doesn't seem like a bad idea if the day stretches out a little longer, but for now...
I'm curious about this part. Assuming you missed the rule about no no-lynches, why would my lynch not be a bad idea if the day stretches out a little longer?
---
I don't see any reason to hold Snowfire's self-vote during the random voting stage against him(?), and Delta's post in reply to Snowfire didn't seem particularly offensive to me. I don't see the reasoning behind the 'Why didn't Delta vote' argument, though, when I think about it, as his post seemed more along the lines of being annoyed at Snowfire's non-serious attitude as opposed to finding him suspicious. At the very least, it didn't seem so to me.
---
I'll hold my vote for now, until I hear from Meeple with regards to my above question.
Also, ##Extension.
-
First off...
##Extension
I missed a good deal of the day, etc. seems a logical idea at this point.
OK, ONTO ACTUAL CONTENT!
I did indeed miss the fact that a Plurality is enough in this game. It tends to swap between games I've played, and I thought I read that you need to hammer, but if a Plurality at end of the day is enough? Then yeah, I take back that comment. I only wish I could have gotten on earlier before Strago mentioned it, since now it probably seems like I'm using it as an excuse, but that is really what happened :\
Next off, I'm still not quite so sure WHAT'S wrong with Snowfire's vote on himself that he immediately retracted. Is it just cause someone called for serious Mafia discussion and he went on with the joke phase? I just don't see that as meaning particularly much, can someone please elaborate for me, cause I'm still confused just WHY it looks so bad. I mean, I've seen people pull stunts like this in the past; its not really so much a scum tell as just as "*smack*, get serious damn it!" moment. Don't mean to Metagame, but if that's really all Snowfire did, I'm not sure just how BAD it can be.
Though, if that's why it looks bad, then paired with the almost useless Wall of Text (which had a seemingly useless Roleclaim; useless in the sense that it tells us nothing of what side he's on, I mean), yeah, I can see that not looking too hot, but I'm honestly not sure that's quite enough.
I'm gonna have to look back at Delta's behavior now that Yoshiken brought it up; I remember him mainly just attacking Snowfire's post for being mostly useless, but that doesn't say much to me.
Vote stays on Xanth for now, mostly cause I still don't quite understand what Snowfire did so wrong. Maybe I should go back and reread the reasons (if someone gave one) cause its possible I just missed it (having to seeve through a lot of posts = your mind wanders at inopportune times)
---
However, looking back again, he then complains about a lack of serious posting & the fact that Snow made a long post to say very little, yet then gives us an Encore, saying the same thing two or three times in that post.
You had to capitalize Encore in a Pokemon Themed game, didn't you <_<?
-
Ok, just re-read the reason for the "Snow's Vote on self looks bad!" thing and...I honestly can't say I agree.
"Joke phase, schmoke phase"? Uh, people will jump on anything then, I'm aware, but at the same time, people will say anything at the same time cause there's nothing. Example? Clue Mafia, Soppy voted on me just cause I hadn't said anything in like 12 hours between my posts, just to get the ball rolling, with a shakey as hell comment. It started discussion too, but it wasn't a serious vote.
The "He's not interacting with people!" thing? Its still too early in the game for it to MEAN ANYTHING. I don't think he would have actually did that if there was actual serious discussion.
I do understand Excal's point that it looks worse with ANOTHER strike on his record (the near useless Wall of Text), so that's something, but I'm not seeing you arguing that.
Rereading, I realize Snowfire's Self Vote was STILL COMPLETELY IN THE JOKE PHASE, as stuff like "Excal is calling OK out on using meme's this early!" in a facetious manner screams joke phase. It didn't seem like there was a lot of serious stuff going on by the time of his second post though. The most we have is Excal voting on Sylon to start a train, only to help discussion; I'm guessing this is the "joke post after the call for seriousness" which...eh, it happens.
Honestly, if silly stuff is not allowed like that, why is it called a "Joke Phase"? Snowfire has since started acting seriously, so its clear that was just him having fun; had he continued to run with it, it'd look bad, but I'm just not seeing it as much as others.
Also, I'm looking at Xanth's vote on me. After the SNowfire stuff, he then says "You attack Sylon!" which as I recently noted, and he doesn't take action until after Bard does. Feels like "Oh, someone attacked, I'll do it too!" as a means to smokescreen an OMGUS but *Shrugs* maybe I'm reading too into it.
I also didn't notice how most of Sylon's votes were joke votes, so looking back, that Sylon train was more just Excal trying to promote discussion.
side note: Excal, while you're being brought up a decent amount of times in this post,I don't mean to single you out; its just that I kept running across your posts when I looked at the ones I was dealing with, so you stuck out. I do not mean to imply anything by this.
-
Bah! Got catching up to do. Meaningful post coming, but just a quick post to let everyone know I'm here in the meantime while I review the game thread.
-
Can we get Deadline ETAs in post counts?
You sure can.
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(0): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat
Deltaflyer2k8(2): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard
Meeplelard(2): Bardiche, Xanth
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(5) : SnowFire, Yoshiken, Nietz, Sylon, Meeplard
Deadline in just over ten hours. It takes 9 to lynch. REMINDER: If there is no vote count leader, a random target among those that share the highest vote counts against them will be done by myself at deadline tonight. Avoid this.
-
Just a question for future, cause I'm not sure how the Extension mechanics work:
Is it possible to withdraw a request for extension (like say "unextension"?) I don't intend to do this now (possibly ever?), it'd just be something useful to know one way or another.
-
MOD CLARIFICATION: Yes, just like UNVOTE: UNEXTENSION will remove your vote to make the day last longer.
-
I also didn't notice how most of Sylon's votes were joke votes, so looking back, that Sylon train was more just Excal trying to promote discussion.
I dunno, Meep. The Sylon train might have been part discussion-oriented, but Rat and Alex certainly seemed sincere enough in their desire to take him out just because.
Also, I'm looking at Xanth's vote on me. After the SNowfire stuff, he then says "You attack Sylon!" which as I recently noted, and he doesn't take action until after Bard does. Feels like "Oh, someone attacked, I'll do it too!" as a means to smokescreen an OMGUS but *Shrugs* maybe I'm reading too into it.
Yeah. Yeah, I see what you mean there. Xanth was also very eager to chastise Delta for lacking in civility, which I've gone on record as saying is pretty much bollocks as Delta immediately apologized for the comment in question. And since I don't see a reason (and do feel suspicious of those who do) for the Sylon lynch right now, let's work on getting someone else in the running and not risk a horrible Hatbot event:
##VOTE: Xanth
Pokemon enfranchisement. Booyaka. Equal rights for weird martial artist pokeymans I've never heard of.
I'm still vaguely against the extension for reasons I mentioned, and am now going to be gone for a few hours. I'll be around again before deadline, though, and won't necessarily be against voting for an extra 24 hours. That said, I'd rather just have more people in discussion than start dragging things out interminably.
-
Delta: So... I try to get things moving with a more inane post (though with some serious parts tacked on), and you jump on it immediately. But you don't vote me either. In fact you haven't voted for anyone at all. It's Day 1, do something, anything, to get things moving. If you thought I was authentically suspicious you should have voted me, not merely attacked me. I find *this* mildly suspicious (by Day 1 (TM) standards) So...
##VOTE Deltaflyer[/b
The reason is more so now, because you say that you actually read Excal's post. However, did you not notice the bit that implyed "Start serious mafia now"? Did you think that you were contributing alot? Did you bother to try and make a case on anyone?
Nope. Nada. Zilch.
The reason I haven't voted for you yet, is because at the time, I was just wanting to get the post done and dusted, and it was relatively early out of the joke-vote phase at that time (to me, anyways). I am leaning towards jokey-style posting, and reading some other people's comments is that it happens. Sorry >.<
Sylon: can we actually hear from you? I've seen you lurking the board repeatedly through the day, but not a peep out of you here. I know there's not much you can say in your defence of a roulette lynch on you, but it's an odd time to be silent nonetheless.
If that's true, then Sylon's (lack of) actions becomes definitely suspicious.
I have to second this, I think that although he has posted, he still needs to comment on everyone, get his views on the arguements everywhere.
The tone of it, primarily. Sure, Snow carried on with the joke stage, but to attack him on that despite it being the first post since the first call for serious mafia seems somewhat ridiculous.
However, looking back again, he then complains about a lack of serious posting & the fact that Snow made a long post to say very little, yet then gives us an Encore, saying the same thing two or three times in that post.
Finally, to finish off, he... doesn't comment on anyone or anything else. If you're gonna Lock On to someone else for not being serious, it's probably better to at least lend a Helping Hand yourself...
(Oh, and the poll count is still out - I voted Delta, not Meeple.)
What can I say? It annoyed me. I honestly hate day one because of the jokevote phase. I guess all I can say is sorry.
I am getting neutral-town reads off Yoshi, Meeps, Bardiche, Strago, QK and ET.
Neutral-reads off Ryogo (post moar now.), Snowfire, Rat, Nietz, Excal and Kilga.
Everyone else, I think you need to post moar.
Sorry for the last bit, but I need to finish this off now and get to sleep, Damned Viral infections.
-
I dunno, Meep. The Sylon train might have been part discussion-oriented, but Rat and Alex certainly seemed sincere enough in their desire to take him out just because.
Looking back, you're right; Excal's push was mostly an "attack" to start discussion, but Alex and Rat's responses do seem sincere, based on the "There's not much to work with, someone's gotta go, lets just make it more firm who dies" logic or some such. Rat's post was short so I somehow missed, Alex didn't have a vote in it, so was thinking he was just talking about philosophy, though, I now notice Alex's vote is placed on Sylon, so that'd explain why he didn't vote Sylon there.
Only joke vote on him, at least one that REMAINS a joke vote (Alex's was initially, but he kept it on for non-joke reasons, so doesn't count) is Tom's, and that seems mostly cause Tom hasn't spoke up yet. I expect that when he finally does speak (IIRC, Tom's got actual time zone issues preventing him from posting at normal times?), he'll either remove the vote, or at least acknowledge keeping it on for whatever (non-joke) reason.
So yeah, I take back my "Most of those votes are jokes!" comment; Alex's was probably a joke INITIALLY, but seems he had a (semi) serious reason to keep it after the joke phase is up. Rat has outright voiced that his reason was based solely on the above logic.
Wondering where I got this idea from?
Can't really say anything about the train on myself- It does consist entirely of joke votes, after all.
I figured someone would at least go out of their way to figure out why they're being called out, but I guess I'm just being a little too trusting, and I should have double checked on my own.
Though, it seems it might just be diction in terms of how he used "joke" in that he didn't literally mean "joke votes" as much as "votes without actual substance other than to pile votes on one person, so I can't actually defend it in any legit way" which is a fair statement; kind of hard to defend against nothing.
Sylon, care to clarify if that's what you meant?
-
I find it amusing that SnowFire talked about how Day 1 sucks right after voting to extend it.
Ehh, that makes sense. Day1 sucks because you don't know much about anyone, even by the end of it. At least with an extension, there might be some use come from it.
Meeple, take a Keen Eye over my last two posts. I've been including quite a few Pokemon attacks, just for fun. ;D
Delta... Fair enough. Still slightly Maqua to me, but less so. I can understand being Torment-ed by the joke stage - this is the first Mafia game I've been in one, and I've managed to Pickup how damn useless it is. >.>
Mostly going by instinct at the moment, but I'm getting (very slightly) town reads from Strago, Nietz, Excal, Bard.
Still looking to hear more from quite a few people, with the ones that stick in my Calm Mind most being Ryogo, Alex & Tom.
Oh, just a point - without at least a small extension, I won't be around for the deadline. That's 7am for me, and I'm not waking up earlier than I already do solely for this, I'm afraid.
-
##VOTE:QuietRain
Mod is obviously undercover scum.
##UNVOTE:QuietRain
There. Random mandatory day one joke vote out of the way. Now for real input!
Day one is a crappy day for drawing conclusions. So much has to be taken from the joke vote phase, especially when it's shortened. Going for SnowFire because he voted for himself at the beginning of day one is a good way to start some discussion early on, but if anyone is seriously still clinging to that notion that it proves he's scum I'm inclined start suspecting them instead. It is the joke vote phase, after all. Not exactly something to take seriously, and if you do, with more than a few grains of salt.
Using the "Iron Wall of text" attack, however, is not a good plan. Especially so early in the game. Especially when the first 3 paragraphs of text have nothing to do with anything at all. It's foolish, but I read it as it was meant as a joke as well. To use the scum scale that SnowFire used, I'd put that wall at about a .3/10 for scum. At least its something to get the ball rolling though.
Sylon lynch train: It's a day one lynch train. It happens. Though after it started, Sylon lurking the way they apparently did does set off the alarm bells. Being absent is fine by me, but actually being around on the forum and not making any posts? Not a fan of that activity. Sorry that you're feeling sick, but as they say "Scum can have RL problems too"
Xanth's line of thinking seems like basic day one grasping for straws. I know the feeling, so I can't really fault him there. Xanth seems to be one that's all for getting straight down to business, so it seems like normal activity for him, especially after playing Simpsons Mafia with him. I really don't like to get into metagaming like that, so take it as you will, but its just my read of the situation.
Carthrat should come up with a better reason than "Hey, lynch train! Jump on board since its day one!" for Sylon reasoning, But he also hasn't been online since his last post (at least not logged into his account). Carthrat usually has some good insight on things, so it seems a little suspicious that he's not around and hasn't said more. BUT if he's from Australia like people have mentioned, that seems like more of a time zone thing than not posting for lurking intent.
So, right now...
##VOTE:Sylon
I think its the worst case so far, but its far from being overly scummy. Its at least something. I'll be around for the rest of the un-extended day, so I'll keep my eyes open for anything else I don't like.
That's really all I got :-\ I'm basically useless on day one.
I'm personally against an extension, just because day one is always terrible for me, but if townies believe they can get insight on scum from an extra 24 hours on day one...
##VOTE: Extension
Might be good for me anyways, considering this is only my first real post of the day :-\
-
Sorry timezone-mafia sucks. ##unvote; will follow up as soon as I get to read thread in detail (skimming at uni). ##Vote Extension
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(0): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo
Deltaflyer2k8(2): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(3): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago
Meeplelard(2): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(7) : SnowFire, Yoshiken, Nietz, Sylon, Meeplard, Ryogo, EvilTom
Deadline in a little less than 8 1/2 hrs. It takes 9 to lynch. REMINDER: If there is no vote count leader, a random target among those that share the highest vote counts against them will be done by myself at deadline tonight. Avoid this.
-
Meeple wall-of-texting is nothing new, and I'm willing to buy the "I didn't read the rules closely" comment. So, my right honourable friend, I will be
##UNVOTE: Meeple
and then look at another person. Let me stress though, Meeple, that I do want you to read posts more closely from here onward and familiarize yourself with the rules, because future inattention will make me pursue the matter as a scum action moreso than town just not being all there.
There are several disagreeable people among our number, some of whose arguments for voting someone I just find ludicrous and some who I just find sketchy in and of themselves for being relatively low-key.
Xanth, what changed inbetween your first post after Meeple voted you and your second post in which you vote for him that you find it a good idea to vote him? You present no new reasoning on Meeple besides blatantly stating that you are abandoning the Snowfire argument for lack of momentum and then latch on to a case I just picked up. Me-too-ism and OMGUS, or is it just the former, or neither? Please tell me.
-
post from work. Quick note: End of joke vote caught Meep/Andy last game. Can help to see how and why people vote early. Self vote denies this and so is auto-strike against poster. More when returned home.
-
Waking up, no time, fun.
##Vote: Extension yeah why not 36 hours is a bit silly.
Offhand, I don't like Meeple because he uses a lot of words at a time when a lot of words are not necessary or helpful. Delta seems shakey on his feet, but I can't see him as being otherwise explicitly scummy. Anyone making up shit about 'general town reads on peoples x y and z' is irking me.
I also don't like how Sylon favours a delaying tactic that forces Meeple to respond to him before he deigns to reply to us or vote for someone. Serious vote is still serious.
-
Okay, Meeple last posts seem more solid, and he at least seems dedicated to analyze and scumhunt. Now, while on regular Mafia it's a good idea for scum to put up a pretense of doing that, I can only suppose it's not so good on multiple-faction games, as it can get you NK'ed by the rival team.
Sylon, on the other hand seems to be trying a little too much to keep it low even while the metaphorical light is over him.
Can't really say anything about the train on myself- It does consist entirely of joke votes, after all.
Considering it was the largest wagon so far and that it was against you, you should have at least something to say about it or its repercussions. Just brushing it aside as joke votes looks like saying "Nothing to see here, move along."
My apologies. I haven't been feeling well these few days, and thought I would put off posting until I could think coherently.
But if you had time to lurk around you could certainly have posted something, considering the wagon was about the fact that you weren't around. I can't get off me the suspicion that you were just waiting for the wagon to runs its course and for a bigger case on someone else to come up without your intervention.
Anyway, active lurking for most of the day and a post with a few weak opinions like you're trying to go by unnoticed does not look good for me. So:
##Vote: Sylon
-
Okay, another quick post before rehearsal.
To answer your question, sure, a theoretical scumSnow would eventually have to contribute or get cut, but benefits in the meantime by not needing to do so now or get caught by the simple measures people tend to fall to on day one.
I now understand this. I happen to disagree with the idea, though, as I think the scum-benefit gained by not contributing to Early Day 1™ is tiny at best and will only get smaller as the game goes on. By about Day 3 I'd consider it negligible, if not before that.
Also, your rationale ('doing something that would make sense for town or scum in equal parts') seems worse than the one you're hitting me for ('doing something that is slightly tipped into scummy').
I'm still not sure I understand this. Let me try to spell out my thought process.
Snow self-voted. You responded by going "self-vote -> vote for self-voter". Such a mechanical approach to the situation is what I don't like; I believe scum are far more likely to go the formulaic route (because they just want to have a defensible vote down), while town are far more likely to look at the context of the situation (joke vote stage, vote immediately withdrawn in the same post) and recognize that no harm has been done. Your explanation as to why self-voting is bad suggests to me that you took the formulaic route, because I don't believe your reasoning is the real reasoning behind why self-voting is bad.
...And then you tell me to disregard that statement anyway. Whoops. At least my vote reasoning is out for everyone to see and analyze.
I'm being pushed out the door, so discussion concerning people that aren't Xanth will have to wait, sorry.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(0): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(5): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(2): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(3): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago
Meeplelard(1): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(8) : SnowFire, Yoshiken, Nietz, Sylon, Meeplard, Ryogo, EvilTom, Carthrat
Deadline in a little less than 8 1/2 hrs. It takes 9 to lynch. REMINDER: If there is no vote count leader, a random target among those that share the highest vote counts against them will be done by myself at deadline tonight. Avoid this.
-
Some quick notes before cooking dinner for large amounts of people:
Excal: I assume you're referring to me? The self-vote was in the jokes phase, not immediately after.
Sylon & Delta: While I'm normally on-board some form of early lynch train, if Sylon is genuinely sick this may not be the best choice (NOTE: Please don't bluff this kind of thing, Sylon, because it's why I'm assuming your lurking isn't evil lurking). It seems Delta isn't feeling well either.
Kilgamayan: Yup, Day1 sucks, and it'll suck more if it's too short.
Strago: Mm. Well longer days where people would be expected to post as fast as they have in short days would cause town burnout, sure, but the hope is that the longer days means the same amount of posts but not as packed together, thus not eating all the poster's Internet time and dealing with events / illness better.
Day 1, so hard to tell. I'll only say that I'm getting a mildly townie read off Excal (seems to take the lack of time we have seriously - though please vote for an extension so it won't be as big an issue?). I'm not sure pursuing Delta is going to be fruitful if he's ill, so instead...
##UNVOTE Deltaflyer
##VOTE Ryogo
"The Sylon case is the worst so far, but far from being overly scummy?" Huh? I suppose it could be a slip of the tongue, as I assume you meant "it's the best we have which is still not much," but it still comes off weird. If you think that there's a better case... vote that! (Or did you mean worst as in likeliest to be guilty?)
Curious to see what EvilTom, Sir Alex, and OblivionKnight have to say, as well.
Ninja'd by Carth/Nietz/Kilgamayan. Er, suppose I'll keep my low-confidence who's townie mention in there anyway. Oh well.
-
Okay, so I've managed to horribly screw up the timing of the evening and am now shattered. I'm not sure I believe in the extension (just about everyone's at least emerging from the woodwork now and votes are going places), but the concession I will make is that I'll set my alarm to wake me up well before what is currently the deadline (although I will just go back to bed if the extension is pushed through).
Bard: I should probably at least respond to you before going. What had changed in that time was that my motion to Snow had clearly become meaningless. It'd probably be a stupid reason to drop on another day, but on day one the first threads don't go anywhere if people disregard them as meaningless, so yes, partially precisely because I didn't see it going anywhere (I still think it was a bigger deal than anything else at the same time, but we're further in than that now). Then yes, given the dwindling number of hours it looked better to start collocating the voting somewhat (given the lack of grand inspiration elsewhere), and Meeple was the one person who I both had doubts of and could see with votes on. So yes, my vote exchange was at the very least eased by your presence, although I will note that I had expressed my doubts in full before you showed up, and probably would have switched to him regardless.
This might look bad out of context, but I assume you see it. If not, try reading how things would have gone had I kept my vote on Snow longer than I did, which felt far worse to me.
That took far too long, sorry if it's written badly. Rest to [possibly] follow in about six hours.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(0): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(5): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(3): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago
Meeplelard(1): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
Ryogo (1): SnowFire
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(8) : SnowFire, Yoshiken, Nietz, Sylon, Meeplard, Ryogo, EvilTom, Carthrat
Deadline in about 7 hours.. It takes 9 to lynch. REMINDER: If there is no vote count leader, a random target among those that share the highest vote counts against them will be done by myself at deadline tonight. Avoid this.
NOTE: Leaving for home now. Will be back up and running in about an hour.
-
Wow, that's quite the flood of posts.
Extensions never help, people just procrastinate more and waste them, read any past game where they've been accepted, the days wind up in deadline scrambles anyway.
So we've got here the Sylon train, which started with jokevotes, turned into "Why not, good for reactions" and then... Sylon... hasn't done anything. I agree that it's as bad a train as any day 1 randomness, but on the other hand... it's as good a train as most day 1 randomness, and I'd feel very weird taking my vote off of someone who has not said or done anything of note, even though it was initially placed as a joke. Sick player or not.
Snow's actions were silly, as stated. The secondary train on Xanth stemming from them... feels like it should be good enough, but I have a bad gut reaction to it right now. Possibly because of the people on it. Probably because this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54961#msg54961) from Strago, wherein he says all current cases are bad and doesn't vote, is the only thing that really tipped my "What" detector so far.
-
"The Sylon case is the worst so far, but far from being overly scummy?" Huh? I suppose it could be a slip of the tongue, as I assume you meant "it's the best we have which is still not much," but it still comes off weird. If you think that there's a better case... vote that! (Or did you mean worst as in likeliest to be guilty?)
I meant exactly what you said at the end of that quote. Worst as in, "He looks the worst to me so far".
The case on him is far from being really scummy. I meant "It's best best we have, but its still not much", when I said that, like you said. It sounded good in my head as I wrote it, but looking back at my post now, it does sound really weird the way I worded it. Just shows the value of looking over an essay a few hours or a day after writing it. Sorry for the confusion.
Trust me, if there was someone else that I thought was looking scummier, my vote would be there :-\
So far, vote staying where it is. I realize what people are saying about Meeple with trying to screen himself with his joke vote, but I feel it's pretty shaky. I almost did it in the Simpsons Mafia game for shits and giggles myself. It means I'm instantly scum? I personally think people are looking way too deep into that situation. Then again, it is day one. XP
-
Day ends in 5 hours.
-
Ryogo: Fair enough.
Everyone else: So currently we're cruising toward lynching Sylon just well because. Doesn't this worry anyone else? Sylon's said he was sick, I'm willing to take his word for that, and while a Sylon lynch could possibly be informative, it won't be if we don't actually hear from him. This little posting is surely real-life issues, as both town Sylon and scum Sylon would have solid incentive to post. Meanwhile, if Sylon isn't scum, I'm sure the scum would be thrilled to just let the clock run out and "accidentally" lynch a random townie. Strago has offered a reasonably good pro-town reason to be against an extension, but as it stands now I think that town at least should really want one. It won't be much of an extension anyway, since Day 1 was set to be unusually short before.
The fact that people are so blase about a Sylon lynch actually speaks mildly to his towniness. If Sylon is scum with RL issues, then his (or her?) scumbuddy should seriously be trying to kick up a racket about an extension so that Sylon could have a shot (kind of like what I'm doing now), something that could be done without necessarily tying their cases together. Yes this is fraught with WIFOM issues, but we don't have much else to work with.
I'd unvote Ryogo but I still don't have enough to go on to even begin to construct a plausible train. There's Xanth, which could be interesting, but eh. I've still got only the barest of clues about Carthrat, EvilTom, OblivionKnight... we seriously need more posts here.
##UNVOTE: Sylon
##VOTE: Xanth
This is strictly a vote for if the extension does not go through, since Xanth is really the only alternative at the moment. If we get the extension, then I hope that we can find something better to work with.
-
And by that I meant "##UNVOTE: Ryogo" of course. I don't think I can give Sylon a negative vote.
-
Back.
Not sure I like the idea of the day ending in the middle of the night, but Mafia seems busiest when I'm in bed (despite my not being an Aussie).
Now for those other thoughts! I'll be with you again momentarily, though I still state now that I have no interest in voting to Extend the day, since I don't believe any real solid, worth-discussing cases have come up today, and the sooner we have a train and a flip to work off of the better.
-
Kilgamayan: That's exactly the problem. We've had a few things worthy of discussion, but not enough. Let's say OblivionKnight is scum for a moment. He's got a totally clean slate and can say - quite possibly reasonably - "oh yeah I was busy Wednesday night" as to why he never chipped in here. It's much easier to tell the difference between "real life" and "actively lurking" when Day 1 is longer than functionally 1 day (since Tuesday was mostly spent on introductions and jokevotes).
I'm not a fan of Wall of Words, but town does need *information*, and no extension makes it really easy on the scum to lurk it up in a non-suspicious fashion, and hard for the town to change gears if something interesting does pop up in the near future.
-
Sooooo you object strenuously to lynching Sylon "just because," but you're totally cool with going to the secondary train on Xanth... just because? That's a little... what. Actually more than a little what. Actually I got a better idea.
##Unvote: Sylon
##Vote: Snowfire
Really, really caught up in defending Sylon for some reason, seems to be antilynch in general... except he hops on Xanth, hoping for something to magically come up with an extension. Plus the earlier selfvote weirdness, which he got a pass on before, but it doesn't help much. Don't like him.
-
Like I said. I'm actually getting a mild townie vibe from Sylon. Xanth has been around, so yes, his lynch might both give more information and be more likely to hit scum to me, assuming we don't get an extension and thus have no time to see what other people post and then react to that.
I don't want to "magically come up with" an extension. I'm hoping that people like you will vote for one for, if no other reasons than it's in their self-interest if they're town. (I'd argue that a more fundamental "the game is not fun if people don't have a chance to interact" would be an even better excuse to vote for an extension, but I know that philosophies differ there.)
-
I'm still not feeling the Sylon train, even given he didn't do much of anything. I understand the LAL mantra but I'd rather lynch someone that actively did something I didn't like instead of someone not doing much of anything.
To the people chastising Sylon for his reaction to the train, what would you have preferred his reaction to be?
Don't like the minor points raised against Delta throughout the day, they seem like another formulaic response ("you suck at ____" -> omg vote4jerk) that doesn't consider the context (in this case, Delta pointing out the non-serious nature of the comment). If I misunderstand anyone's continued misgivings with Delta, please let me know.
---
Notes I took while reading about things people did that I didn't like about them (as opposed to simply not liking cases):
- Bardiche: Gets after Meeple for not reading the rules. Supposedly he was unaware that Meeple did not reada the rules, but Bard still unvoted after Meeple explained he did not read the rules, implying that it was an important point. Why does logic that contradicts the rules scummy?
- Snowfire: Afraid of touching the hammer threshold with a ten foot pole early on into the day.
- Yoshiken: Votes Delta for being "overly aggressive" but does not explain why this is bad (and takes being prodded to even explain HOW Delta was being "overly aggressive"). Yoshiken, why is being aggressive bad? It seems to me that scum would have a much harder time being aggressive than town would.
- Delta: Comments that Sylon needs to put forth comments on everyone and then proceeds to place neutrals on pretty much everyone (and "post more"s on those that he doesn't) without bothering to explain why he holds any non-PostMore opinion.
- Ryogo: Calls out Rat for his "all aboard the Sylon train woo woo!" reasoning and then turns around and does the same thing.
- Bardiche: Asks Xanth about his switch, citing that nothing had changed with Meeple since Xanth's last post. I thought Xanth made it pretty obvious why the switch was made when he mentioned that the Snow case wasn't going anywhere, and I question why that didn't register in Bard's mind.
If this were the beginning of the day I would probably vote Bard for the two things mentioned above, but given the circumstances I'm staying on Xanth out of mini-protest for the Sylon train.
Cut by Snow: I can sorta see where you're coming from, but the train resulting in the end-of-day lynch will be very worthy of discussion. In fact, I would bet that it will be more worthy of discussion than most anything else that would happen in extension time.
Cut by Alex: Interesting perspective of Snow. I'll need a moment to think about it.
-
*Why is logic that contradicts the rules scummy?
-
What I meant there is that Snow's hoping for some clear case to come up during the extension, should one happen. I think this is an unrealistic hope.
-
Because I read it in preparation for Simpsons Mafia... I present to you Mai-Hime mafia, which you took part in, Sir Alex.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2506.msg42192#msg42192
This is the post that got the scum godfather lynched on Day 1, and it even opens with "We've got about 12 hours left." (in a 48-hour day rather than a 36-hour one) It's not until 5 hours after that anyone votes for him, and it's towards the deadline that the train shifts toward Sopko.
There are too many people who haven't posted much at all and haven't had the chance to make such a slip-up. Day 1 sucks, but it's not useless, and we should make the best of it we can by letting more people post tomorrow.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(0): Xanth, Snowfire
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(4): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire
Meeplelard(1): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(8) : SnowFire, Yoshiken, Nietz, Sylon, Meeplard, Ryogo, EvilTom, Carthrat
Deadline in about 3 1/2 hours. It takes 9 to lynch. REMINDER: If there is no vote count leader, a random target among those that share the highest vote counts against them will be done by myself at deadline tonight. Avoid this.
-
My compiled thoughts on activity I find scummy -
Yoshiken - Case on Delta is v. weak, amounts to 'Delta is aggressive'
Excal - 'I agree with Rat, but I don't.' More concerningly "So, I'll be able to react accordingly once everyone's had time to react.", in other words "I'll join the scuffle once the dust settles".
Xanth - Leapt on Delta when it wasn't called for, then focused on the suicide vote
Meeple - Votes Xanth purely over the Snow thing
Out of those people, my vote will be wasted unless I vote for Xanth apparently. I'm not entirely happy with that. TBH I'd prefer to vote for Excal, but there's no point in doing so as he has no votes so I'll leave it as a FOS for now. Somebody will be lynched no matter what, but I want to have a part in that. I don't see much on Sylon other than "being quiet when trained", but I've barely been able to post due to timezones so I'm not pressing that on him.
For me, the single worst thing from Xanth isn't the metagame stuff, it's the Delta-slap on page one. It's easy to victimize Dela, and it wasn't really needed. ##Vote: Xanth
-
Tom old pal! What do you think about Snowfire?
.... what do you think about that last votecount including my unvote on Sylon and not my vote on Snowfire? I'm not sure if that's a count error, or...?
-
Huh WTF?
I didn't notice it (it was a ninja votecount, I didn't bother to read it).
That's... weird. Mod, is that votecount correct?
If so, that changes everything. Reminiscent of incompetent mafia.
As for what I think about Snow, I thought it was a bit overblown, but tha may be about to change. :S
-
Alex: What do you hope to accomplish by voting SnowFire at this juncture?
Snow: Do you think Xanth is scummy? What makes Sylon better than him?
-
We got about 3 hours, it's US evening so people are around, and Snow's the best lynch to me. I hope to demonstrate my beliefs on the matter at this juncture and possibly convince other people to join me in voting him so that he may be lynched?
There's nothing in my role that would account for my vote not working on someone! It may just be a count error though I guess and even if not I'm not sure what it would mean.
-
VOTECOUNT - Corrected as I did indeed only catch half of Alex' vote (the unvote part).
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(0): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(4): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(5): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(1): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(8) : SnowFire, Yoshiken, Nietz, Sylon, Meeplard, Ryogo, EvilTom, Carthrat
Deadline in about 3 hours. It takes 9 to lynch. REMINDER: If there is no vote count leader, a random target among those that share the highest vote counts against them will be done by myself at deadline tonight. Avoid this.
[/quote]
-
Snow, just curious. Do you actually have a reason as to why Sylon is town besides that he's sick? I mean, sure, he could be a townie who's not feeling well and can't think of anything to say. Though he could also be a scum who's not feeling well and can't think of anything to say. Both sides can have that same excuse. So where does your certainty come from?
But what gets to me is the logic that not only is the excuse a good reason not to lynch him, but that we should lynch Xanth instead specifically to save him. However, more important is the reasoning used to pick between the two. Namely, that Xanth talks. What the hell kind of reasoning is that? We want to have a lurker over someone who actually participates?
Honestly, I'm not sold on Sylon, but some people have made some pretty good cases for him. Xanth I don't see the case on at all. But you, Snow? Yeah, I'm definatly feeling that right now, so.
##Unvote: Sylon, ##Vote: Snowfire
-
I don't have much to add to what's been said, cause I'm not finding much to work with...well, no, that's not worded right, I just mean "much that has changed my stances." But I might as well weigh in on some recent activities a bit.
First off, Sylon...yeah, not seeing the case. Its mostly as Kilga spelt out; a train that started mostly just to get the ball rolling, and just so we have SOMEONE to lynch initially, rather than leaving it to Hatbot, he didn't respond immediately, and people are saying its bad cause they know he was on. Eh, I'm gonna agree that its a shaky case, especially if what he says is true about not feeling well.
Snowfire's case I think its more just him having an odd way of thinking of things. I understand where he's coming from as well; whether I agree with it...dunno. He does bring up a good point that OK has said like nothing of substance, for example (though, I haven't seen OK much in chat, so I'm guessing he actually isn't around much today.) I'm not really seeing this as a scum tell, more of a "is that really going to help?" situation. Bad playing, maybe, scum tell, can't really say. Getting not much of a read on him either way at the moment.
Regarding Bard's statement about me not paying attention to the rules = bad...
I think he's more saying he'll let it slide for now, but using it too much of an excuse is hinting I'm not paying attention, which doesn't look good. He's not really holding it against me at the moment, near as I can tell, more just warning me for future reference if that makes sense?
Though, I do agree that "not following the rules" isn't really a scum tell, more just me being a total moron >_>;
---
Ninja'd by a few people! Namely Alex and Excal I think.
-
Snowfire(0): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex
DUN DUN DUN!
..No really. If it's just a votecount error.. Eh. Snow hasn't been acting scummy, in my eyes. I haven't had the time I'd like to spend on this so far (posting from a lecture right now). Can you tell me why you're dead set on him?
Ninja, will check when lecturer isn't looking.
-
Last post before bed, which probably means forever if no one else votes the extension.
Kilgamayan: See my logic before about how things would have gone if Sylon had a theoretical scumbuddy. They have a perfectly justifiable reason to raise hell over the Sylon train, but that hasn't happened (except for me - this logic works best from my perspective, since I know I'm town; if Sylon flips scum, I will grant that I will look worse.). In fact, people seemed to be kicking up their heels saying "Well, this is the best we can do." If you are scum this is the best possible case - have a lazy mislynch that requires little scum guidance to set off. I will fully grant that this is fraught with WIFOM problems - see, well, Simpsons mafia for a case where the scum ended up weird on Day 1 - but I still feel it has merit, which is certainly enough for Day1 standards.
As for Xanth, there's not much of a case on him, but like I said that vote is mostly for the case where there is no extension. If there's no extension than the only choice is between targets who might actually be lynched - Sylon (mildly townie) and Xanth (neutral). If those are the only two options, it is an easy pick.
Excal: I'm hardly "sure" Sylon is town. I do think that lynching him without letting him respond at all due to what are almost certainly RL issues would be stupid, though. In fact, didn't we go through something similar in Simpsons Mafia? Scum Andy and Meeple were attacking someone who wasn't there at all. Sylon has at least been around a little, but worst comes to worst he gets modkilled. And I've already explained why I'm voting Xanth - he's the only other option that stands a reasonable chance if there is no extension. If you vote for an extension, you can fix that problem quite easily, and hopefully we can find a better train.
-
Ah, rightyo. Thanks, QR.
Still think Snow's a good lynch though. Better'n Sylon and Xanth. The attitudes of the folks going on Xanth worry me.
Ninja - why?
- Selfvote at beginning of day. Weird, but whatever. Not helpful though.
- Walls of text. Not sure why. Weird, but whatever. Not helpful though.
- Seems dead set against lynching Sylon for some reason. Complains case on Sylon is "just because."
- Supports lynching Xanth instead of Sylon, in the same post saying case on Xanth is "just because." (actually "could be interesting but eh", same philosophy. Also says he doesn't really want to unvote Ryogo, then does it anyway. ALSO mistakenly unvotes Sylon instead of Ryogo, which... darned if that doesn't give me the weirdest vibes. Seems he really, really does not want Sylon lynched.)
- Is super-pro-extension, which is fine though I don't agree with it... but continually says he has nothing and wants something to come up in the extension. What? Why? Indicates waiting for someone else to make a case for him to get on (anyone that isn't Sylon, apparently?)
This is all pretty circumstantial... but it's scummier than anyone else to date by far.
Oh also, ninja'd by Snow. At least three people now going "Well nobody but Xanth is viable!" THIS ISN'T TRUE and I think pushing that viewpoint (especially with language like "votes that aren't on Xanth are wasted") is scummy. Nobody's even gotten over 5 votes, for crying out loud. Vote for who you think is scum.
-
- Seems dead set against lynching Sylon for some reason. Complains case on Sylon is "just because."
Do you really disagree? I can't see any case for lynching Sylon.
Most of your points aren't actually tells. They're just facts, that don't read town or scum either way.
-
I think Alex is using Snow's combination of "lynching Sylon 'just because is dumb" and "Xanth is a good lynch 'just because'" as a point against him. I think we can agree that hypocrisy is a scumtell.
-
I don't disagree. The scummy point is that he is against lynching Sylon just because and for lynching Xanth just because. Being defensive of others day 1 is not a good thing! I should know, I got burned on it the last two games I played. :(
-
Erm, yeah. I'm actually curious if there is a case on Xanth besides trying to defend Sylon, and his first response to Delta way back on page 1?
-
Sir Alex: Oh also, ninja'd by Snow. At least three people now going "Well nobody but Xanth is viable!" THIS ISN'T TRUE and I think pushing that viewpoint (especially with language like "votes that aren't on Xanth are wasted") is scummy.
Okay so I lied about last post before bed. This will still be brief. YES IT IS TRUE because Day 1 ends in 2 hours (possibly)! And I won't be there for the end! EvilTom made the same point: There's no shame in voting for the person scummiest among the viable candidates left. This is not rocket science and happens in all games.
Also the walls of text thing is just false. Go back and compare the size of my posts to that of others.
As for something to come up... yes! Carthrat hasn't posted in awhile and also requested an extension. It'd be interesting to see what he has to say. OblivionKnight has barely posted at all (though probably due to genuine RL issues from what Meeple said?). I still only have a light read on Nietz. Etc.
Frankly, I'm kind of annoyed right now, and would probably vote for you if I was voting my heart. That said I am probably colored by OMGUS and stand by my earlier point about voting for the scummiest among the viable, so the Xanth vote stays.
Ninja posts: No, that's not what I'm saying. Le sigh. I am saying that I personally have a mild townie read on Sylon from others' responses if not Sylon himself. You are free to disagree with that, but that's what I think. I personally have no read on Xanth. If you are given a choice between a confirmed townie and a random, you vote random! If you are given a choice between someone who you think is more likely to be townie than average and random, you still vote random even though you're not as sure! It's a crappy choice though, so hint hint hint what have I been railing about for a bunch of my posts that rhymes with "retention?"
-
You were town then Alex. So.. that's evidence against your case. I can agree that hypocrisy is bad, but if Snow is scum trying to protect Sylon, that would mean Sylon is also scum (most likely). It's possible that we hit scum on random lynch train and Snow is also scum.
case on Xanth besides trying to defend Sylon
The same logic - Xanth and Sylon would be scum. Which doesn't work, in that context.
I don't like the assumption that "x is defending y, they're both scum". It precludes town from defending people from stupid arguments (like this one).
My reason for voting Xanth is because of the Delta-slap, not because he defended Sylon. Sure, it was 'way back on page 1', but it wasn't a towny thing to do.
Snow ninja, will check in a sec.
-
Erm, yeah. I'm actually curious if there is a case on Xanth besides trying to defend Sylon, and his first response to Delta way back on page 1?
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54989#msg54989
-
There's no shame in voting for the person scummiest among the viable candidates left. This is not rocket science and happens in all games.
Frankly, I'm kind of annoyed right now, and would probably vote for you if I was voting my heart. That said I am probably colored by OMGUS and stand by my earlier point about voting for the scummiest among the viable, so the Xanth vote stays.
I personally have no read on Xanth.
This is what I don't get.
Also, not to sidetrack, but an extension won't help. Cases don't magically appear for you in extensions. Rather, historically, what happens is that people go "Oh yay extension!" and then do nothing for the 12 hours and wind up in the same situation, just dragged out more.
-
Alex, there's no point me voting Excal right now, because nobody else has expressed an interest in doing so. It's like voting person x when y and z are in sudden death. Gah lecture ending, gotta run.
-
You were town then Alex. So.. that's evidence against your case. I can agree that hypocrisy is bad, but if Snow is scum trying to protect Sylon, that would mean Sylon is also scum (most likely). It's possible that we hit scum on random lynch train and Snow is also scum.
This...reeks of WIFOM. Yeah, ok, assuming Snowfire is scum, and he's protecting Sylon, wouldn't it be to his BENEFIT to defend a TOWN? That way, it makes the person Snow defended look bad.
As I said, its a WIFOM, cause it'd be equally likely to defend a scum in hopes he doesn't get lynched for something as random as "lets go after someone cause they have votes!" Similarly, Scum would often want to disassociate themselves with other scum members, in order to sever ties (or alternatively, make as many ties as possible, to add confusion into the mess.)
Not seeing Snowfire's actions, IOWs, weighing in on Sylon's worth; its too WIFOM to really second guess how Sylon relates to Snowfire (if at all.)
...
AND I GET NINJA'D cause my posting was lagging? ARGH! Damned internets! *shakes fist*
-
Blech, re-reading Tom's post, I realize now he was essentially pointing out HOW that logic is flawed. So uh, yeah, I more or less just supported everything he said.
-
Kilgamayan: See my logic before about how things would have gone if Sylon had a theoretical scumbuddy. They have a perfectly justifiable reason to raise hell over the Sylon train, but that hasn't happened (except for me - this logic works best from my perspective, since I know I'm town; if Sylon flips scum, I will grant that I will look worse.). In fact, people seemed to be kicking up their heels saying "Well, this is the best we can do." If you are scum this is the best possible case - have a lazy mislynch that requires little scum guidance to set off.
I've been thinking of this, trying to find a way where it does not also apply to the Xanth train, and not succeeding. Maybe Alex's objections to the Xanth train, but if he objected to it because he's Xanth's scumbuddy why the hell would he move off of Sylon and bring Sylon and Xanth together in the vote count?
I'm starting to agree with the hypocrisy accusation regarding "let's not lynch Sylon 'just because' let's lynch Xanth 'just because' instead".
What the hell - I'll be up until deadline if necessary, and this is more than I have on Xanth.
##Unvote: Xanth
##Vote: SnowFire
-
Sir Alex: This is what I don't get.
Sure, if you chop out the explanation I'm sure it makes no sense.
This will be my last attempt to explain myself as I sadly am unable to find sleep. Let's rate people on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being confirmed town and 10 being surely scum.
Xanth is average - 5.
Sylon is, to me, mildly townie - 4.
SnowFire is extremely townie - 0.
SirAlex is, to me, mildly scummy - 6.
If the choice is between Xanth and Sylon - well, 5>4 ! Thus it may make sense to vote for a "random" - if the only other options are even worse.
I suppose I should clarify one thing - I don't mean that Xanth is a perfect blank slate. He's made some good points, which earns him mild townie points, but he's also come off a bit as the disinterested bystander which is a possible scumtell. I feel it mostly cancels out. (There's another, metagamey reason for mild suspicion of Xanth based on what I've read of him before, but bringing it up would probably get me rightly flamed, and it's quite likely irrelevant anyway, so meh on that.)
Also you keep on talking about extensions as if they are all alike. This is an extension to a 36-hour day when multiple notable people have not really posted much and half the people in it would like one. And I stand by my original philosophical point anyway - games are only fun if people get a chance to participate in them.
Ninja'd by Kilgamayan. Well, see above.
-
I understand the logic in 5>4. I don't understand the logic in selecting 5 and 4 in the first place, because your "Sylon scumbuddy would have raged over Sylon train" reason for putting Sylon at 4 can mostly be pasted over the Xanth train as well.
-
VOTECOUNT - Corrected as I did indeed only catch half of Alex' vote (the unvote part).
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(3): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(3): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(4): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(1): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(8) : SnowFire, Yoshiken, Nietz, Sylon, Meeplard, Ryogo, EvilTom, Carthrat
Deadline in about 2 hours. It takes 9 to lynch. REMINDER: If there is no vote count leader, a random target among those that share the highest vote counts against them will be done by myself at deadline tonight. Avoid this.
-
I disagree that the logic applies to Xanth equally. Xanth has participated and can defend himself; setting things on fire to defend him might attract attention and be a possible scumtell should Xanth ever flip. Sylon is unavailable due to RL reasons. Such a target is a bad lynch in general (though perhaps a valid modkill) for the lack of information they tend to give, and this is a town-aligned argument. In fact this argument majorly came up in Simpsons Mafia Day 1, as I noted before, and was used quite successfully by the town to lynch scumMeeple! So... defending Sylon is something a theoretical scumbuddy could easily do while appearing a perfect townie as doing so, because a townie (like me) frankly should have been doing so earlier. Doing so for Xanth wanders far more into WIFOM territory rather than "easy win" territory.
If you disagree with my logic, that's fine, of course. But... the reason to vote against me would be "blatantly bad logic that implies your scum and don't really care" not "eh I disagree," I hope.
-
arglehellfuck
Got home much later than anticipated. Caught up on the thread, but cannot keep my dang eyes open any longer. I also don't see a compelling reason to vote for anyone other than Xanth at this point, though, nor too extend the day. Extensions are blargh and I hate them. So. I'll see you guys in the morning.
-
No, the part I don't agree with is where Snow states "I'm voting for the scummiest person" and then even numerically ranks people as scummy and then doesn't vote for the scummiest person.
The problem here is limiting the choice to only Xanth and Sylon, which was never true. Saying that is now or ever was the case is something that does not sit well with me, I find it quite scummy. (More people than just Snow have done it, very much granted. They also do not sit well with me.)
-
Except that Sylon posted, and was seen in the forums, which Delta hadn't been. And outside of Tom's joke vote, and Alex's nothing better reaffirmation, everyone on Sylon had a reason for being there. And, the biggest offender, Alex, has since moved on with reasoning as to why he's moving on. So, it's not exactly like Meeple.
Snow, about your townies should defend the defenseless? It's a good scumtell if they can't convincingly say why they're going to such lengths, or have been proven to be town. After all, where does the certainty come from otherwise? And it's definatly coming across here, since you're fighting tooth and nail for someone who you don't even seem to say is overly townie in and of himself, against someone who you say you don't find scummy.
And this is the thing that really gets to me, that doesn't seem to make any sense.
-
Snow: Xanth has been unavailable to defend himself for IRL reasons for quite a few hours now (see: bed), and it is in this time that his train became truly significant. The only guy that really spoke out against it unvoted Sylon to bring the two to a tie. Where is Xanth's defense-by-a-buddy right now?
-
Ryogo, you've been around since this all went down, as evidenced by your avatar and flavor text change. What are your opinions on the situation?
-
Day wraps in about 50 minutes, folks. Midnight my time.
-
Right right. As promised, I'm back around now, and see that there's no extension (good), but I'm yet again out in front (bad), and my voting for one of the other two brings us to a tie (also bad, although still better for me).
Will read and respond in bunches for you.
-
Given the propensity for DL mafia to have turnaround lynches close to deadline, I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on people refusing to vote for cases other than those 'locked in'. There is precedent. It has produced great results in the past. Why the fallacies against this? It only really applies during the very late deadline when few people are around, not... where it came up earlier. We're assured *a* lynch, too, so there's less of an urgent 'we must have majority' thing going down. Come on, people.
DT has actually defended Delta earlier this game, even right in the jokevote phase, jokingly. 'because he's delta' no longer really cuts it; you can just as say 'it's easy to look townie defending delta because he's delta'. Xanth's comments is terribly minor and a pretty silly thing to be calling out for a vote at this stage. If that's your strongest point on someone, I weep.
Snowfire having a townie vibe on Sylon really irked me, earlier. He hadn't done anything, and drew all his conclusions from what other people were doing around him. Then he didn't even actually go after any of 'em (let's not forget that part of his hypothesis was 'lots of people voting for one guy seems bad and untrustworthy'), instead focusing on the unrelated Xanth. Yeah sure don't vote Sylon because you think he's just sick or whatever, but actually going out and saying 'he's townlike!' is way too weird.
So... defending Sylon is something a theoretical scumbuddy could easily do while appearing a perfect townie as doing so, because a townie (like me) frankly should have been doing so earlier.
If you disagree with my logic, that's fine, of course. But... the reason to vote against me would be "blatantly bad logic that implies your scum and don't really care" not "eh I disagree," I hope.
Wait, what? Is this actually logic? It seems a very confusing way of saying 'defending Sylon is a null tell, ergo you should have no tell on me'.
Wait, actually, I get it! It's saying 'defending Sylon is an optimal move and everyone should defend Sylon.' I don't like how this narrows the possible action sphere down- it ignores the possible intent behind the action, which needs to be put into the context of someone's other actions.
I'd vote him for that, since by now he's just making no sense to me; I can't see the way he's thinking coming naturally at all. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Snowfire
-
Meh. I have a sore throat and a sniffly nose and still can't sleep and people are still... I don't follow what exactly the problem is with what I said. Life sucks sometimes.
I'm repeating myself here but I have nothing better to do while blowing my nose. I apologize if I come off too snarky here, but since things obviously aren't being communicated well, I feel some snark is required.
Kilgamayan: Like I said before. I've already explained my very hypothetical, Day1ish argument. I will be the first to say that it's not foolproof but those are the kind of arguments we have on Day1. Lynching everyone who proposes a theory is great for scum. I've also already explained why my comments don't really apply for Xanth, but might make more sense in the case of a hypothetical scumSylon. Basically:
Scum want to do two things: Appear town and defend their buddies. When a chance comes along to simultaneously defend their buddies and appear town, then they often take it. Not always, for sure, as this can lead to its own predictability and WIFOM issues... but in general. This is even more true if we are dealing with two small scum teams - a team of 4 scum can afford to spread itself out across the debate early, while 2 scumbuddies need to stick together a bit more, especially due to the risk of randomly getting nightkilled by the other side.
Making a fuss over Sylon would - to me at least - be a town-aligned move. And if Sylon was scum, then this would fulfill both a scum's goals- defend their buddy without looking too suspicious (to people like me who think lynching a person mostly not around is useless). Obviously if you don't buy that defending Sylon is particularly town-friendly, ignore this! But I do.
The same scenario doesn't apply to Xanth, as he doesn't have Sylon's "but he's not here" argument. (Also Xanth isn't here due to time zones, not an RL issue or illness - presumably he'll be here shortly? He said he would, at least...) Someone stepping up to defend Xanth majorly.. well, why? It could be done, but if Xanth ever flipped, they might look bad.
I also want to stress that this is all based on chances going one way or the other. Obviously scumbuddies could be in the wrong timezones, making mistakes, not agreeing with what I think, the works, but I stand by "this is likely what would happen in general." A weak argument? Perhaps, but it's enough for me.
Excal: Yes I am fighting this one out. I'm fighting it out because I believe that Day1 matters, and that we should get a good lynch off it, and not sit back and let randomness / scum decide our lynch for us. I believe Xanth is more likely to be that lynch than Sylon, whose lynch would tell us very little. (On the bright side, Sylon does not appear to be in nearly as much danger at the moment, albeit at the cost of confirmed townie me now being in the spotlight.) Of course this is all with the huge asterisk of "if no extension goes through." Who knows, it's quite possible I'll be hopping on board a new Sylon train after all, but I'd like to see Sylon post again first.
Sir Alex: It's a philosophical issue. I would have voted Gore in 2000 even if I'd been a Nader supporter (which happily I wasn't). You note that others believe that too. If you wish to argue against it, great, but it can't possibly be a scumtell since I would cheerfully repeat the same thing outside of the game and in any game I am in. (Usual disclaimer: if we have more time such that changing the lynch target is possible, that DOES entirely change the game. However that is even less true now than it was when I first noted that.)
Ninja'd by Carthrat and Xanth. Hmm. Is this really making so little sense? Yeesh. I'm not sure what to say. I'll just repeat again that the exact same logic was used to defend Delta in Simpsons mafia, and I basically agree with it! Serious mafia philosophy question - is there something I'm just massively missing here as to how the Delta and Sylon cases are being seen differently? Anyway looks like I need to post again, though preferably after seeing Xanth's post. Since as I've said before, Xanth was only a "best alternative" lynch to me.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(4): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(2): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(4): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(1): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(8) : SnowFire, Yoshiken, Nietz, Sylon, Meeplard, Ryogo, EvilTom, Carthrat
Deadline in about half an hour hours at midnight my time.
-
First off, do I actually have much in the way to actually defend? I haven't worked my way through all of the posts, but there mostly seems to be an artificial balancing act where I'm 'the best option'. If there's anything you actually want me to answer, list it here or I may well not see it before the end of the day.
The one reason I've seen touted is for tapping Delta back into line, which I look back at and still see as appropriate (which is to say that his were a slightly bigger deal than some have said, and that mine were a considerably smaller deal). I'd say it wasn't even a scum thing, but I did admittedly then say I was reading him on the negative side of neutral later on.
I haven't read it back to the start, but I don't really get where Snow's 'Sylon not here, Xanth is here' part of his reasoning. I can't imagine why I'd want to be here as scum if [by this reasoning] I'd have done a lot better to have just stayed in bed (it would have been natural, after all - I've had to wake myself up hours early to make it) and assumed votes wouldn't come my way. This isn't to say I'm using that as a defence as it stands, just that it doesn't stack with this pile of logic he's constructing.
-
As I recall from the prior game, Meeple was caught on day one not so much because he voted for Delta, but because he voted for Delta after outright saying 'Delta is a crappy lynch and the guy I was just voting for is better'.
YOU are suspect for very different reasons, which is calling Sylon townie for not being around and catching heat from several others- when Sylon himself HAS posted and HAS used an active delaying tactic, in the form of 'you post first, I'll go over here.' Your later justifications and arguments have done you no favours.
Ninja by Xanth, yeah I'm not too thrilled about 'he's here!' being an apparently significant chunk of anti-xanth reasoning (which again, doesn't seem to work; doesn't your logic naturally point at someone going after Sylon as likely scum?)
-
Carthrat: As a reminder re: changing lynch targets, I had hoped to get to sleep about three hours ago. I would have been fine with changing my vote to who I actually thought if I felt that I would be able to change it back to a "relevant" vote come deadline if that train did not catch fire, but I didn't think that would happen. Otherwise... see comment to Alex re: mafia philosophies.
Otherwise, re Sylon again... I raise your "what"s right back at you. SF's defending Sylon so therefore he's scum? And thinks everyone should agree? Of course I think everyone should agree. What kind of person argues a point he doesn't believe in or think is right? I... don't follow your post at all.
My own personal inclinations are to suspect scum of those who seem to be wildly misinterpreting what I'm saying, but obviously townies are apparently included in that group as well, so... yeah. I expect disagreement but I fail to see the logic against me here even a little bit.
As for follow your heart thoughts... I may have to retract what I said about Excal having a townie vibe before. Complaining about the lack of serious mafia is an easy thing to do to get townie points, and to some extent Excal has, I feel, chipped in throughout the thread to me-too somewhat. Including me-tooing against me, so yes I'm somewhat biased, but there you go. I think I may have cooled on Sir Alex suspicions - this could be a town-town dispute gone wrong - and Carthrat... I suppose my read on him depends on how it is that everyone else has been seeing my argument. I'm not sure if everyone's just misinterpreting it, or it actually is bad, or if it just doesn't vibe with the philosophies resident here.
So yeah, now that we have at least a few more posts to work with (Though there could be more with an extension..), I'll lightly suspect Excal. I'm fine with changing my vote if enough others are willing to do so before deadline.
Ninja by Carth and Xanth again, will get to in next post.
-
Back on a computer now.
Just quickly: Xanth, I assume you're going to switch votes to Snow?
Argh keep getting ninja'd.
-
There's now no reason for me not to:
##Unvote: Meeple
##Vote: Snow
...which I guess I'll post again without adding commentary yet since immediate ninjas want to know. As I said, posting in bits and pieces, more to follow.
-
Actually, I've often found it equally likely that on Day 1, scum will either defend their buddies, or gleefully bury them. All three of the successful Day 1's I can think of have involved Scum on that train somewhere, two of them having been started by one of the scum and successfully led by that fellow scum. So I do have to disagree that defending a scumbuddy is actually a guaranteed goal for scum on Day 1.
Next up, after explaining in detail why scum would want to be very sure to stick up for each other, you then go on to explain why this particular instance of you sticking up for Sylon is not, in fact, scummy. But this contradicts your earlier post. Especially since the way you've gone about it has shown that it in fact does not come across as overly townish to do so.
Your point to me fails in that you have given no compelling reason that Sylon is town. Only an argument that we would gain nothing from it, and that we'd gain more from lynching the active poster as opposed to the inactive poster.
And your point to Alex fails in that when you started on Xanth with the claim that it had to be him or Sylon, there were no votes on you. Now Sylon is safe, and you are tied with Xanth. Obviously, with a good argument there was more than enough time to fight for somebody who people felt was actually scummy. Which means that either you didn't have a good argument, or that you wanted us to think we had no choice. Both of which make Xanth seem a very poor choice for our lynch if even the most vocal proponant of his lynch cannot give good reason for it. It also makes a mockery of your statement that you believe we should fight for Day 1, when you aren't even willing to fight for who you feel is the scummiest, going for someone you feel isn't especially scummy instead.
NInja'd, will read after posting
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(5): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(2): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(4): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(0): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
VOTES FOR EXTENSION (9 needed for majority)
(8) : SnowFire, Yoshiken, Nietz, Sylon, Meeplard, Ryogo, EvilTom, Carthrat
Deadline in about 15 minutes at midnight my time.
-
I'd humbly suggest as an alternative, Xanth, that you vote for the extension after all. Yes, you can cast what might the finishing vote against me.... or we can see if anything new has popped up in another day. (NINJA: Already done, that works.)
Yeesh. Let me say in case I do end up getting lynched: The reason I caught heat in the first place was supporting a lynch which I never particularly wanted to be a part of. I've already explained several times before that voting Xanth was only a second-best option in the case of there being no time, i.e., no extension. I stil think it's not a great lynch. But it seemed the only option where my vote would have weight. I never claimed that my logic was bulletproof - hell, it's entirely a play the percentages deal. But... oh, meh. I've already said my piece.
Excal: But I'm not a vocal proponent of Xanth's lynch! I'm a vocal proponent of an extension so we can find a better target than Xanth to lynch! Come on, that's an easy one.
-
Also, Excal. I obviously believe that fighting for a good Day 1 lynch meant not lynching Sylon before he could respond. Which it seems we won't do! On the downside we lynched sure town, but so it goes.
I'll roleclaim if no one wants to step in for a last-minute extension.
-
- Bardiche: Gets after Meeple for not reading the rules. Supposedly he was unaware that Meeple did not reada the rules, but Bard still unvoted after Meeple explained he did not read the rules, implying that it was an important point. Why does logic that contradicts the rules scummy?
It is not the logic that contradicts the rules that is scummy, it is the inattention to the rules, the suggestion that we should lynch someone just for the sake of lynching, but worded as "Vote on Sylon cause he has votes" just to get a lynch in doesn't seem like a bad idea
which makes me wonder why it is not a bad idea to lynch a random person for the sake of lynch.
##EXTENSION, I'm going to need one as I'll depart for school now and I feel sufficient discussion is on-going to warrant it.
-
Why is inattention to the rules scummy?
-
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
I hate to be fussy over small things, but that wasn't actually me.
Re: Anti-Snow - I can see where people are coming from. But, in my mind, it only works if Snow and Sylon are a scumteam. For a scum Snow, Sylon has to be scum, otherwise why would Snow go to such an extend to save a scumbuddy as to get himself killed (which would mean his own deaht). So if Snow flips scum, are the people on the snowtrain currently willing to lynch Sylon tomorrow? If yes, then why weren't you willing to do so today? I know I wouldn't be willing to lynch Sylon based on his (in)actions, so by extension, that argument doesn't work for me against Snow.
That's the reason why I'm not seeing Snow as scum - I don't see the scum connection or the motive.
And yeah, I admit the case on Xanth is also weak. Weak cases all round. Argh so many ninjas.
-
Also goddamnit I stayed up this late because I expected the day to end tonight.
What a goddamn waste of sleep time.
-
Okay, I owe you one Bardiche.
Time to take another shot at getting to sleep. Will be more than happy to respond tomorrow as to things. Also, to put my money where my mouth was before....
##UNVOTE: Xanth
##VOTE: Excal
-
And that makes majority. Extension asked for and granted. 24 hours for all.
-
Except that past experience has shown that extensions only delay the flip, they do jack all to actually help town. As such, they're actually more useful to scum because it leads to burn out by making sure Town gets to go through this intensely stressful near the end of day turmoil twice. This leads to burn out, burn out leads to town hunting less well.
Also, we've shown that it was not too late when you started on Xanth by turning the Sylon train around, and starting yours. Hell, last game had the same thing happen to at least Andy, with Yoshi pulling his lynch out of nowhere at the last second. Your words ring hollow, Snow.
Edit: Fuck. There's goes the flip. Anyways, I won't be here for day end tomorrow. And I was mostly staying on for the damned flip.
-
What I'm seeing immediately from Snow is a lot of flangy logic, from which I can see how he's put his foot in it, but I'm not sure I weigh much of it heavily against him so long as he's then talked out of it. What I immediately don't like, however, is the passing off this train as the 'only' choice in a responsibility-evading manner.
...grand, last minute extension. Can't say I'm happy with that at all (day one will continue to be day one, and I'll probably need to set my alarm again), but it's reason enough for me to stuff writing the rest of this now and go back to bed.
Ninjad so many times it hurts.
-
Seconding Kilga. Yay, now we get to hang around for 12 hours debating.... nothing new. Whelp.
How bout some more people vote Snow so we can get a majority lynch on him? I have nothing else in particular to post.
-
- Bardiche: Asks Xanth about his switch, citing that nothing had changed with Meeple since Xanth's last post. I thought Xanth made it pretty obvious why the switch was made when he mentioned that the Snow case wasn't going anywhere, and I question why that didn't register in Bard's mind.
It did register to my mind, but the point of my query was to see whether he had had any other reasons. As it stands he says he felt more comfortable pursueing Meeple because someone else did, and so I learned new information.
I'll expand that when I return.
-
That couldn't wait until Day 2?
Ugh, fuck me. I'm going to bed.
-
Clinic closes in 20 minutes, so I've got to rush out. Will post once I've returned.
-
Sir Alex: This is what I don't get.
This will be my last attempt to explain myself as I sadly am unable to find sleep. Let's rate people on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being confirmed town and 10 being surely scum.
Xanth is average - 5.
Sylon is, to me, mildly townie - 4.
SnowFire is extremely townie - 0.
SirAlex is, to me, mildly scummy - 6.
If the choice is between Xanth and Sylon - well, 5>4 ! Thus it may make sense to vote for a "random" - if the only other options are even worse.
5>4 Correct.
6>5 Correcter. (yay for made-up words)
You state that you believe Sir Alex to be scummier than Xanth, and yet you do not explain why, or why Xanth is more scummy than Sylon, or why you think sylon is townie.
Can you please rectify this, as I am confused. Snowfire does not offer a half-decent explanation at all. His almost half-assed explaination was here:
Sir Alex: It's a philosophical issue. I would have voted Gore in 2000 even if I'd been a Nader supporter (which happily I wasn't). You note that others believe that too. If you wish to argue against it, great, but it can't possibly be a scumtell since I would cheerfully repeat the same thing outside of the game and in any game I am in. (Usual disclaimer: if we have more time such that changing the lynch target is possible, that DOES entirely change the game. However that is even less true now than it was when I first noted that.)
What.
Anyways: ##VOTE: Snowfire
-
I can't say I like how the Sylon wagon has waned without him having to do anything. And I like even less how SnowFire argues that Sylon is town exactly for doing nothing.
In fact, pretty much everything SF has said is one of the messier bunchs of contradictions I've ever seen, as a lot of people have pointed out.
The only reasons I have not to vote him right now is that I frankly don't see why scum would expose themselves so much on Day 1, and that I don't want to give Sylon a free pass for active lurking. I know he's sick and all, but as someone said, scum can get sick too, and if he could get online he could at least have posted something earlier.
Also, I noticed that OblivionKnight and Strago have tried to keep a particularly low profile as well, specially the later. I just think Sylon's case is worse right now for actively trying to keep it down even when the attention was onto him.
-
Also,
How bout some more people vote Snow so we can get a majority lynch on him? I have nothing else in particular to post.
Majority vote will extend the day 24 hours.
-
Majrity vote for extension will extend. Majority vote for lynch ends day right then and there.
-
If everyone is set on SF, I'm happy to move my vote onto him to speed up the inevitable. Shouldn't he claim then?
-
Majrity vote for extension will extend. Majority vote for lynch ends day right then and there.
D'oh! My bad.
-
Well, seems a big Snowfire train has occured while I was sleeping. *Damn it all or something!
Anyway, Snowfire's looking worse than what I initially thought for reasons people have been pointing out, though I can't say I feel confident about this...but its a day 1 lynch, confidence beyond some really big scum slip is going to be shakey. So while I'm not moving my vote *NOW*, I'm declaring my intent to hammer him when I come back from school, if the day's still on.
*I'm just daming the fact that I woke up to like 30 new posts that needed reading and was totally NOT expecting that, not so much cause of what happened in those posts; don't take this the wrong way <_<;
I will say one thing though...
Also, I noticed that OblivionKnight and Strago have tried to keep a particularly low profile as well, specially the later. I just think Sylon's case is worse right now for actively trying to keep it down even when the attention was onto him.
Strago, maybe. He's been talking, if not frequently, but at least he's participating.
OK? I'm not sure "Low profile" counts so much as he hasn't been here at all. As I said, though, I haven't seen him much online in the past 24 hours at all, so there's a good chance he actually has legit RL reasons; though if this keeps up throughout the next day, I'm expecting a modkill.
-
Sleeping now. Still nothing new to say.
-
Well bed for me. ##Unvote; ##Vote SF Hopefully you people on the other side of the globe will get to see the flip a bit earlier or something.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(7): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(2): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(0): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
Excal (1): SnowFire
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline in a little over 16 hours.
NOTE: Sylon's player has asked to be removed from the game. I will not be replacing him, so he has been modkilled. As it's still Day 1, this does not end the Day.
-----------------------------------------------------
As the Pokemon argued amongst themselves over which of them were trying to invade the temple, one pokemon was curiously silent. Many pokemon commented on his lack of contribution to the conversation and finally they realized that not only had he not contributed in a while, he wasn't even with them. Heading back to the plane, they found the Nosepass sitting next to his trainer's body. They arrived just in tiem to watch him explode as his grief look precedence over his desire to ferret out the Magma pokemon. His form re-appeared, unconcious. A thourough search of his things yielded nothing and the group returned to their arguing.
Sylon (Nosepass) has been self KOd. (Town Aligned, Passive One-Shot Bulletproof)
-
Right, I'm around. I'll basically be 'around' until about 6:30pm, after which I'll try and at least refresh the page once an hour or so, and will set my alarm for the same time tomorrow morning for the actual deadline.
Let's start with a brief (as not to WOT) review of everyone before zooming in more. Delta, Sylon and Bard were the three without votes come the 'deadline' for whatever that's worth, although in at least Bard's case this seems a deliberately measured play.
Tom: Lift off the veil of 'my vote must be here or it's useless' and I'm relatively content. Has kind of drifted in the last bunch of posts, but at least started strong enough.
Ryogo:
Yoshi: Happy enough for now. Been around a fair bit, talked on a decent range of subjects. Only point against is the 'going by instinct' and such from here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54976#msg54976). Looking through his posts made me realise that 'Xanth picked on Delta' is made weirder by both Yoshi and Snow having picked up that ball and running with it before I got tarred with that at all (okay, on reading through other people's material I do see that Yoshi was also hit for this by multiple people, although not transpiring into votes).
Excal: Not sure I see the case on Excal, unless it runs that he focussed on Snow completely from the point he put the vote down on him, which doesn't read unreasonably to me.
Rat: No concerns.
Alex: Very late effective entry to the game, toppled back by the content that's followed. Similar with Excal, I can only see a 'tunnel vision on Snow' argument here, but would disagree with it.
Strago: Effectively joined the game with 12 hours from the 'deadline' (partially disregard this - the more I check other people, the more this equates with other people). Wishy-washy and lightly involved despite a fair wad of text.
Kilga: Active, aggressive and well-spread, so content.
Meeple:
Delta: Low content. Effectively two posts with not much content? I don't understand his tiers (from here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54972#msg54972)) at all, primarily because it's not expanded on at all. Town-Neutral, Neutral and Post More categories? Where are the suspicions? Why is OK in the Town-Neutral section from one joke vote? Why am I under Post More?
Sylon: Effectively one post, which mostly covered stale material in a stale manner. Still weirded out by how much he lurks and reads the thread without actually posting. Hotly anticipating his hopefully imminent return to get an actual direct scan on him other than 'super lurker'.
Bard: Paced slowly for the day, which is bad but at least consistent with the extension vote. Any particular reason why you left the plug for extension quite so late when it looked clear that you weren't reaching any sort of 'conclusion' any time soon? The simplest explanation would be if you would've preferred to see myself lynched over Snow, but I shouldn't just assume that to be the case.
OK: Hasn't been here at all since the very start. 40 hours and counting. No point in commenting at this point, as it should currently be in the hands of Mod.
Snowfire:
Nietz: Possibly because of New [To Me] Player Syndrome, I don't really have a grasp yet. Low content.
Right, well, this is taking bloody ages (unsurprisingly, I guess), so let's split it off here. Missing ones and conclusion will follow in another post (I did them in order of posting in the topic (sans Snow), before anyone gets confused).
Ninja: oh well, at least that resolves the Sylon thing. Best wishes that you get well soon, you evil clone army.
-
Jesu Cristi, people. The point of Mafia is to give Strago something to do at work, not abandon him all day and then write four pages when he’s at rehearsal/asleep. ;_; Alright. Let’s see, here. Brief reply to something, to start us off:
Snow's actions were silly, as stated. The secondary train on Xanth stemming from them... feels like it should be good enough, but I have a bad gut reaction to it right now. Possibly because of the people on it. Probably because this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54961#msg54961) from Strago, wherein he says all current cases are bad and doesn't vote, is the only thing that really tipped my "What" detector so far.
I wasn't convinced by cases at the time, looked over things/took a break, and an hour later dropped a vote that I'd become comfortable with. That's all I got. I agree with your sentiment that trying to limit potential “viable targets” to Sylon and Xanth is dumb and bad. That said, now that Xanth has been around more and answered to the few problems I had with him… he doesn’t strike me as overwhelmingly townish, but I have no great yearning to see him hang.
##UNVOTE: Xanth
Okay, post is now about re-reading through the topic’s last three pages or so to make sure I didn’t miss things when I was exhausted last night, and to have the benefit of working through it all chronologically. I apologize for the wall of text. I wish I could stay up all night and do this in real-time, but I don’t function well that way.
Order of the day is now Snow, apparently. For all that I wasn’t excited about the extension, Snow’s post here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55039#msg55039 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55039#msg55039)) does pretty well explain his intentions and make a decent case for a 36-hour day not being long enough for impressive results. It’s not a causal relationship he presents, of course, but it makes sense to me.
HOWEVER:
Kilgamayan: See my logic before about how things would have gone if Sylon had a theoretical scumbuddy. They have a perfectly justifiable reason to raise hell over the Sylon train, but that hasn't happened (except for me - this logic works best from my perspective, since I know I'm town; if Sylon flips scum, I will grant that I will look worse.).
[...]
Excal: I'm hardly "sure" Sylon is town. I do think that lynching him without letting him respond at all due to what are almost certainly RL issues would be stupid, though. In fact, didn't we go through something similar in Simpsons Mafia? Scum Andy and Meeple were attacking someone who wasn't there at all. Sylon has at least been around a little, but worst comes to worst he gets modkilled. And I've already explained why I'm voting Xanth - he's the only other option that stands a reasonable chance if there is no extension. If you vote for an extension, you can fix that problem quite easily, and hopefully we can find a better train.
Think you sort of... shot yourself in the foot here, Snow. I see what sort of devil's advocate stuff you're trying to say, here, but actually for me it suddenly highlights in very stark relief the weirdness of your Sylon defense. Because it's always been characterized more accurately by "Don't Lynch Sylon, At Any Cost," than by, say, "Those Attempting to Lynch Sylon Are Scummy And Therefore Better Options." So really it does look like you and Sylon might be… might… be…
… and of course I’m ninja’d by the mod with confirmation that Sylon was one of the good guys. Which… huh. Theoretically makes Snow look better?
But then there’s this arbitrary number nonsense ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55071#msg55071 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55071#msg55071)) which just fills me with bloodrage and death-wanting. Especially since he isn’t even voting for the person who’s the numerically scummiest or whatever.
Mrff. Snow’s just been all about spinning his wheels and talking about who we shouldn’t lynch without producing any substantial arguments of his own and frankly using a lot of weird nonsensical doubletalk. I’ll go ahead and announce my intent to hammer, except now it’s annoying and semi-worthless because Snow’s gone and can’t potentially roleclaim. Blurg.
-
Random things:
Ryogo says something here about Carthrat on which I call shenanigans in a big way: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54979#msg54979 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54979#msg54979). Namely that because he hasn’t shown up on the “active users logged in” list, he must necessarily not be lurking. What. Do you know how easy it is to log out of the boards and still be very actively reading the thread and even writing your posts? It is so easy. I’m not saying “lynch Rat” – dude’s an Aussie, after all – but that is a specious reason to wave away suspicion.
Nietz points the finger at me for “trying to keep a low profile,” which: I am? Eh. I’m doing what I can, but even when I’m around for long chunks of time it’s pretty hard for me to contribute as much in-the-moment as those bat-like (or Australian) types who are really in the fray during the busy hours.
As far as OK goes, do we have a number on how many hours of inactivity it takes before someone gets modkilled?
-
Strago, I'm presently posting. Please do not ninja me with a hammer, k? :V
-
Wouldn't dream of it.
-
Wall of text.
I do not agree with the present train, else I would not have called for an extension, and I am quite confused why people would then undermine it and attempt to push the lynch through before I could post what I wanted to before requesting extension.
I don't think lynching Snowfire is our best course of action at this point. Period.
##VOTE: SirAlex
Out of the blue indeed, but by far my favourite person for a lynch presently. I reason he is because of the events unfolded at the start of this Mafia course, namely:
- His push on Sylon train and consequent lurking afterwards does not sit well with me. In fact, I find it tunnel-visioned in only pursuing the lynch on a lurker on day one, only switching to Snowfire when Snowfire attempts to defend Sylon. (by no means a good move on Snowfire's side, and certainly something that should earn him scrutiny, but it pales in comparison to SirAlex)
- Continuous stressing at first that Snow's self-vote isn't that big a deal, and then in the vote post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55031#msg55031) later raising it again but this time as something that apparently matters enough to be mentioned.
- Faulty logic demonstrated here:
- Seems dead set against lynching Sylon for some reason. Complains case on Sylon is "just because."
"for some reason" is a silly thing to include, because Alex himself acknowledged that it is a bad train (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55001#msg55001), saying only that he stays on it because it would feel weird taking a vote off of someone who hasn't talked. So the only thing Alex has demonstrated charging Sylon with seems to be inactivity, which a player cannot defend against reasonably.
Ergo, there isn't any good reason to be in favour of lynching Sylon, and attacking someone for acknowledging that seems odd at best and scummy at worst.
- False advertising of the Extension to be "useless" and that it will lead to "procrastination" and "waiting around". I cannot see town wanting to stifle discussion and cut matters short to get a lynch immediately.
The Sylon train was a deathtrap from the beginning. All those votes piled on would force Sylon to do something, like suddenly grasp out to people and point out their scumminess, or something similar. He has had no charge to defend himself on[/u], and people still insisted on him having "sensible things to say" (Xanth) or just generally wanting him to take action.
This is all a terrible, terrible sort of thing and does not at all help Day 1 lynches. In fact, it undermines them, and let me repeat again from earlier that discussion was already had outside of the Sylon train, so that its purpose from the start was sketchy at best.
No, I do not believe that lynching Snowfire is the best course of action presently, for all that his contradictory and confusing nature does not sit well with me. I am far more interested in lynching Alex for his actions.
Kilga stuff in the next post.
-
Quick, someone ninja Bard with a hammer as revenge for his five-minutes-to-go-we-only-stayed-up-this-late-to-watch-the-day-end extension vote.
Ninja'd myself! Blast.
-
Is that sense of humour or breach of civility, Kilgamayan?
- Bardiche: Asks Xanth about his switch, citing that nothing had changed with Meeple since Xanth's last post. I thought Xanth made it pretty obvious why the switch was made when he mentioned that the Snow case wasn't going anywhere, and I question why that didn't register in Bard's mind.
It did register to my mind, but the point of my query was to see whether he had had any other reasons. As it stands he says he felt more comfortable pursueing Meeple because someone else did, and so I learned new information.
I'll expand that when I return.
The expansion to that thought is that I find Xanth's reasoning to be too insufficient. His reasons for voting Meeple instead of Snowfire based themselves off of "Well this is going nowhere" and "Meeple has a sensationalistic tone in his post". I want to know what a "sensationalistic" tone would have to be, and as town one should always, always, always try to get people enthusiastic for their case.
Ultimately everyone turned to a Snowfire case instead, which he happily jumped back on with nothing new to add. What is more interesting is that he promises to follow up this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55096#msg55096), and later expresses that he is not happy about having an extension to explain those promised thoughts (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55108#msg55108), which I had hoped to extract from him and scrutinize him for.
I at first had wanted to use the extension to vote for Xanth for not pursuing his case with any vigour and happily jumping on the next convenient thing which I was already on (me-tooism), as well as his response to me where he cleanly states that he is not at all interested in pursuing who he thinks is scum but on the next eligible target which people do seem to want to pursue.
Let me make this clear. Town are not accessories to other townies winning the game, townies are all individuals who should use the power of rhetoric and logic to sway people to their side of the argument and, by process of elimination, remove all malignant/non-town individuals from the game. There is absolutely no reason to drop any case on someone you feel is suspicious if you are town.
As you can see in my previous post I have more interest in Alex presently, with Xanth following a good second, and Snowfire scoring only third to those. I prefer my primary target.
-
I thought the second line gave away that my post was made in jest.
If it didn't, then hopefully the first line of this one did. :V
-
I thought the second line gave away that my post was made in jest.
If it didn't, then hopefully the first line of this one did. :V
You appeared rather upset over the extension earlier as you were using explicitives, so I wasn't sure how to treat it.
-
Ryogo: I like what I see, but dislike what I don't. Early absence is sure, whatever, but the lack of input later is less so. Less concerned assuming some extra input in the extension time, which he did back with this in mind.
Meeple: I'm seeing a lot of text with no direct relevance or hammering a minor point/query to death. As far as I can see the only useful action taken before 3 hours before the deadline (as in before this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55053#msg55053)) was to call me out on apparent OMGUS and me-too-ism (which I do mean positively and not sarcastically). Gets a little more involved at that point... but I again note a lack of weight being applied on to anyone at all, slowly gravitating towards Snow. Still my second preference.
Snow: .
.
.
.
Okay, so I'm being distracted on all sides, we're suddenly facing hammer and I still haven't got to talking about the guy that my vote is down on (and intend to keep it on). I need to get lunch and make another phone call, but I'll try and be quicker otherwise.
Bard ninja: okay, sure, add replying to that to my 'to do' list. I thought the term was clear enough, but I'll explain it for you now that you've raised issue to it quite so long after teasing at it.
-
Bard: That was then, this is now. I'm still not entirely happy with it, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of proper play.
-
Nietz points the finger at me for “trying to keep a low profile,” which: I am? Eh. I’m doing what I can, but even when I’m around for long chunks of time it’s pretty hard for me to contribute as much in-the-moment as those bat-like (or Australian) types who are really in the fray during the busy hours.
That was my impression, yes. But reading the thread again there's more people who could fit that. After Sylon's modkill, I'm not really sure who could be the worst case of sneaky scum, though a OK modkill for inactivity starts to seem appropriate.
Things as they stand now, I don't really favor a SnowFire lynch because I really believe his behavior necessarily amounts to scumminess, though I think the sheer WTF-ness of his arguments hasn't been helpful at all.
Ninja by Bard (and others): I do believe that there were reasons for the votes on Sylon, mainly that he wasn't actually inactive, but rather actively lurking and avoiding commenting on his case. Though apparently his health issues were actually serious enough.
-
EBWOP: "because I don't really believe his behavior necessarily amounts to scumminess" I mean.
-
After Sylon's modkill, I'm not really sure who could be the worst case of sneaky scum, though a OK modkill for inactivity starts to seem appropriate.
I nominate Ryogo and Yoshi for this. Yoshi hasn't posted in ~20 hours and Ryogo was around last night but said nothing.
Proper response to Bard forthcoming.
-
The expansion to that thought is that I find Xanth's reasoning to be too insufficient. His reasons for voting Meeple instead of Snowfire based themselves off of "Well this is going nowhere" and "Meeple has a sensationalistic tone in his post". I want to know what a "sensationalistic" tone would have to be, and as town one should always, always, always try to get people enthusiastic for their case.
Mmm, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't really have a problem with people switching votes from a less likely lynch to a more likely lynch when they believe (and directly state that they believe, including reasons why) in both cases.
Looking back at the Meeple post Xanth called into question for being "sensationalist", I believe he is referring to the third paragraph, where Meeple uses CAPITAL LETTERS and even an exclamation point! to perhaps present his case against Xanth as more than what it actually is. Compare Meeple's antiXanth presentation to, say, mine (here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54930#msg54930) and here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54989#msg54989), and note the large difference in tone.
Could Xanth have pointed this out directly? Sure. I woudln't hold it against him for not doing so, though, given Meeple's post was not that far prior to Xanth's response.
Ultimately everyone turned to a Snowfire case instead, which he happily jumped back on with nothing new to add.
I don't like how you're trying to paint Xanth as the bad guy for choosing NotMe over Me in that scenario.
What is more interesting is that he promises to follow up this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55096#msg55096), and later expresses that he is not happy about having an extension to explain those promised thoughts (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55108#msg55108), which I had hoped to extract from him and scrutinize him for.
I imagine he wasn't happy for the same reason all of Alex, Excal and myself were not happy - having to deal with shifting-deadline shenanigans in relation to sleep time - rather than being unhappy for having to explain himself.
-
Nietz: Fair enough point. I obviously shouldn't get huffy when people call me out for not being around when day-to-day life has legitimately caused me not to be around.
Hmm. Honest immediate reaction to Bard's post v. Alex? It looks a lot like what I've seen scum pull (and have pulled myself, as scum!) at the end of many Days (specifically Day 1s) like this: form what is essentially a new case very shortly before the Day's end in order to look productive without having to hitch your cart to any lynching wagon. This generally leads to one having a cleaner slate on the following day, in my experience. Yeah, this sort of 11th-hour case always pings my radar, particularly because on Day 1 there's sort of an unspoken attitude of "well we won't have any real info until tomorrow anyway so today is fake."
THE WEIRD THING IS:
I tend to agree with the bulk of his points against Alex! Since the early hopping on Sylon, Alex has looked a bit weird to me, and Bardiche's points taken on their own merit -- without taking into account his post's positioning within the landscape of the day -- really resonate with me. So I'm not sure how to reconcile that.
... except for when I remember that there are two scum teams. Which... ah. Huh. Don't really know what to do with that.
Ultimately everyone turned to a Snowfire case instead, which he happily jumped back on with nothing new to add.
I don't like how you're trying to paint Xanth as the bad guy for choosing NotMe over Me in that scenario.
Not a bad point. You do seem to contradict yourself, Bardiche, given your comment here:
Let me make this clear. Town are not accessories to other townies winning the game, townies are all individuals who should use the power of rhetoric and logic to sway people to their side of the argument and, by process of elimination, remove all malignant/non-town individuals from the game. There is absolutely no reason to drop any case on someone you feel is suspicious if you are town.
Because by the same token there's also no reason to lay down your life if there's another option.
-
Ultimately everyone turned to a Snowfire case instead, which he happily jumped back on with nothing new to add.
I don't like how you're trying to paint Xanth as the bad guy for choosing NotMe over Me in that scenario.
Worded that wrongly. While it is good that he preferred a target that was notHim above Him--I presume I need not explain why that is good--I do hold it against him that he switched his target back to Snowfire at the earliest convenient interval while adding nothing new to reasoning despite there being sufficient new material on Snowfire. It seems to me more of a desperation move rather than an idea that Snowfire is scum.
edit4Strago:
... Right, so what do you expect me to say about your first point about "scum pulled this off earlier"? I'm not scum, and as I said earlier I at first intended to pursue Xanth after extension. I'm not even intending for all this nonsense to sweep over without response, vote for Alex.
I find my case against Alex better than the case against Snowfire, and precisely because there are/may be two scum teams there is no reason at all for me to believe that lynching Snowfire is indicative of whether he is scum or not, so may as well push for his lynch right now.
-
Ultimately everyone turned to a Snowfire case instead, which he happily jumped back on with nothing new to add.
I don't like how you're trying to paint Xanth as the bad guy for choosing NotMe over Me in that scenario.
Worded that wrongly. While it is good that he preferred a target that was notHim above Him--I presume I need not explain why that is good--I do hold it against him that he switched his target back to Snowfire at the earliest convenient interval while adding nothing new to reasoning despite there being sufficient new material on Snowfire. It seems to me more of a desperation move rather than an idea that Snowfire is scum.
What is bad about the above is that he previously stated interest in lynching Snowfire because Snowfire=scum and then later it is because Snowfire=notMe. Should've attempted persuading the ones who voted on him at that juncture of why Snowfire is a better choice than him.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(7): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(1): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(0): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
Excal (1): SnowFire
SirAlex (1): Bardiche
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline in a little over 14 hours.
-
Ultimately everyone turned to a Snowfire case instead, which he happily jumped back on with nothing new to add.
I don't like how you're trying to paint Xanth as the bad guy for choosing NotMe over Me in that scenario.
Worded that wrongly. While it is good that he preferred a target that was notHim above Him--I presume I need not explain why that is good--I do hold it against him that he switched his target back to Snowfire at the earliest convenient interval while adding nothing new to reasoning despite there being sufficient new material on Snowfire. It seems to me more of a desperation move rather than an idea that Snowfire is scum.
...which is exactly what NotMe over Me is, isn't it?
This sounds like "NotMe over Me is good, but it's also bad". I don't follow your thinking at all. Why is it bad that reasoning did not accompany a NotMe over Me vote?
-
As above. He should've attempted persuading the others who voted on him to vote for Snowfire, as if he truly had believed Snowfire to be scum at first this should be in his sphere of interest. I do not see any such interest at all.
I fault him for seemingly abandoning attempts at persuading us that Snowfire=scum when it was perfectly reasonable to do so, especially given his earlier belief that Snowfire=scum.
-
I don't "expect" you to say anything in particular, Bard. This is not a tac where I unbalance you until you have tears in your eyes and admit to being the Godfather. My Mafia MO's pretty much always the same, and it is: throw the legit ideas at the wall and see what sticks. I recognized a strategy I've seen before, and it inspired an intuitive leap that got me thinking about the two scum teams. Which - and it's early, so fair enough - has had pretty much no air time thus far.
From where I'm standing, though, we really may just as well lynch Snowfire right now. He's one vote away from being hammered, I've declared my willingness to do so, and some of our historically- or recently-lurkish might well feel the same way, which means that if we spin around and lynch somebody else we'll just be left tomorrow with a SnowFire that most of us have not trusted, to whatever degree, for a good chunk of the day. So tomorrow he'll be around and we'll probably just largely be wanting to lynch him again.
This is especially true, to my mind, since it seems like whatever other lynch took place would not be spurred on by any persuasive argument by SnowFire himself, as he hasn't made a convincing argument against anyone a this point. So it's not as if we've seen the light and think he's suddenly a good guy, we'd just all be going selectively blind for a minute and it'll just be more focus on him tomorrow and to hell with that.
Again, only reason I see not to hammer him now is because this is a rolemadnessy game and we ought to wait for some kind of claim, I guess.
Oh, and fair enough for wanting to keep after Alex tomorrow. I'll hold you to that.
NINJA'd by Kilga: I suppose the difference, as one not heretofore involved in this discussion, is that Scum are naturally more interested in self-preservation than Town simply because there are fewer scum and a single death means more. If a good Townie sees himself going down in flames, he still ought to be pointing out the evil he sees around him; Scum may, very naturally, focus for longer on putting out the fire. But I see where you're both coming from.
NINJA'd by Bard: Yeah.
-
Man, I'm a wordy bastard. Need to work on my laconic charm.
-
From where I'm standing, though, we really may just as well lynch Snowfire right now. He's one vote away from being hammered, I've declared my willingness to do so, and some of our historically- or recently-lurkish might well feel the same way, which means that if we spin around and lynch somebody else we'll just be left tomorrow with a SnowFire that most of us have not trusted, to whatever degree, for a good chunk of the day. So tomorrow he'll be around and we'll probably just largely be wanting to lynch him again.
I suppose you're right. I'm fine with leaving Alex for tomorrow then lest Snowfire becomes an issue--funny that I should overlook that.
-
Firstly, just to clarify my position based on what Kilga said about me being possible-sneak: GMT, I Rest around 11/11.30. I then wake up, go to college, get back around 4pm. I've just finished reading through 4 pages of stuff, so my post may be a little late, but that's the way my life goes. I'll (usually) post a fair bit in response when I -do- Return.
(Also, yikes, was it really necessary to have 4 pages of new posts? This has to be the most packed Day1 I've seen from all the Mafia games I read through...)
Unfortunately... I'm gonna have to say that my views haven't changed all that much. Put simply, I still don't have a read of any Strength on, well, anyone at all.
I... sort of get Bard's case against Alex, but I don't personally buy it. It raises suspicion of Alex a bit, but also raises suspicion of Bard - a lot of the arguments seem typical for Day1, so I find it quite odd that it's being followed with such vigour.
That said, I definitely buy the case against Snow. It's not the reasoning behind it - I can understand that the train against Sylon had no real logic to begin with - but more the clearly flawed logic. I can appreciate the odd mistake, but something as basic as (the same thing everyone else has brought up about) voting for "Just because" after giving that as the reason not to vote is majorly flawed.
That said, those who've compared this to Meeple in the Simpsons Mafia, I'm hoping that's a view of "Well, it can happen" and not "It's likely to happen". Sure, Meeple went because of that. But everyone commented on how strange that was - it's not likely, just possible.
I'm not gonna hammer Snow, just for the role-claim. Otherwise, he'd easily be my main suspect. Not really sure on a second suspect - I might have to go back and re-read the topic completely at some point, but I'm posting this while my internet's working.
(Final point - I tried accessing this from college today... Most pages were filtered, except for the last, which became filtered after Xanth's post. Seems I might have more trouble checking from there than I thought, so I've no choice but to drop out if I do lose the internet, which is seemingly at about a 50% chance at the moment.)
-
Right, back.
Generally re: Bard:
I'm not sure why Kilga jumped in to make my defence for me, but yeah, that's mostly exactly it, and if nothing else it's reassuring that it does read as intended to some. Anything in particular that he covered that you want me to respond to directly?
My only concession is that I overestimated just how much I'd [read and] write in that time frame, and so didn't get a proper look at Snow. Given that my hand was forced either way this opinion was nice but unnecessary to run through to the deadline, and is only important now that I very definitely have the choice to be elsewhere, which I'm now only failing to get to as I expected this to be a quiet enough period in the day that I could get through my set piece in one go.
What I distinctly don't like about your approach here is how you've spent quite such a long time suspecting and baiting me forward without actually directly doing anything until now. You clearly had concerns earlier, why bother beating about the bush so much if you genuinely thought it should be pursued? I don't think I can buy it being a deliberate trap or anything.
-
I will have to be brief, this is another lunch post. Who knows, perhaps things will get turned around.
As for my roleclaim: Complete roles will flip on lynch, so it's not as big a deal. I will say as my half-roleclaim that I'm not anywhere near an important enough town role to try and turn the tide based on that alone.
Bardiche: I'm suspicious of both Sir Alex and Excal. If you'd prefer to push the SirAlex train, that works for me; like I noted before, I'm fine with either one. I'll be more than happy to change my vote this evening if I'm still alive to Sir Alex if it looks like that can get some momentum.
Unfortunately, the events of last night seem to have let off more heat than light, so meh. To restate in short form the events of last night from my perspective:
* Town is on cruise control toward a Sylon lynch.
* THIS IS VERY BAD WHY ARE WE DOING THIS. Even if a Sylon lynch was merited, shouldn't we let him respond, or let some of the lurkers chime in?
* OMG SnowFire is too sure about Sylon clearly he's scum!
Like I said, I just want a good lynch on Day1. Which is now even less likely to happen! But so it goes.
For what it's worth, I apologize if anything came across as too personal last night; the extension issue... really really sucked. That kicked up way too much drama; I really wish the day had just naturally been longer. I'm not kidding when I say that I finally decided to join this game partially because I saw it had a 72 hour Day 1, and thus I could avoid the for-me frenetic and disastrous Day 1 in Simpsons Mafia. No, really, I'm not making that up. (I suppose I just prefer longer days in general.)
~In which statements of general Mafia philosophy are made~
I'd stand by these elsewhere regardless of the game and would cheerfully discuss them in an out-of-topic thread, but they seem unfortunately relevant here.
* Voting your heart vs. viable candidates: Sure, vote your heart... if you're going to be around later before the day closes so that you can switch your vote if necessary. Or if you feel you have a really strong suspicion that simply requires you to leave a vote there. Otherwise, you risk being a random pop-gun in the wilderness. Also note that scum can avoid controversy by sitting their votes on people who won't flip for a long time, or perhaps tossing a lone vote to their scumbuddy who they don't think is at risk as a way of insurance for later. (For Pokemon mafia: Note that I had hoped to be asleep when the day closed, and when I cast my vote it was 5 Sylon - 3 Xanth - 1 anyone else.)
** Side note: Has anyone played games where people can cast multiple votes / as many as they want? Bookkeeping would be more a pain, but it would presumably eliminate this issue.
* Extensions: Yes, last minute extensions are mrph, and for those I can sympathize with the burnout problem. It is unfortunate that we had 8 votes with 8 hours to spare, and only got the 9th after much sound and fury. Just... 36 hours was too short, and requiring a strict majority was probably too much.
* Simpsons Mafia / voting for mostly absent people: Obviously I can't speak for everyone who voted against Meeplelard, but El Cideon at least attacked both Meeple and Andy and more on the grounds of the vote than on Meeple's other post content. I think the differing motivations was just the Meeple train of thought.
So... for Delta, Excal, and others hitting me on the "voting your heart" issue: I'm sorry if my vote for what I felt was the only viable candidate offends you, but anti-voting others for philosophical differences is... very bad for the spirit of things (Obviously other factors are mixed in, but this part - which several of you have raised directly - I feel is unfair). Hell, some people on my train right now have said they don't entirely agree with it, but they're still voting me. I didn't anti-vote anyone for being against the extension, despite the fact that I felt the extension was pro-town and scum would likely have an incentive to be against it, because it was likely legitimate philosophical differences. Yes, go ahead and criticize me for being stupid or something for holding to that belief, but it isn't scummy.
Too much other stuff to respond to, but out of time.
-
As for my roleclaim: Complete roles will flip on lynch, so it's not as big a deal.
That's not the point of an L-1 roleclaim.
-
I'm not sure why Kilga jumped in to make my defence for me
It was more to explain why I disapproved of Bard's actions.
Just because I dislike some of the actions you've taken doesn't mean I dislike all of them.
-
(ugh, still here, sorta) Kilga: The point is to make sure town doesn't lynch a power role without being certain about what it's doing, right? I'm not one.
-
So stop dancing around the question and just do it.
-
Look, unless for some reason he's a Town Cop who's lying to us, there's apparently no reason not to hammer him. Which I'm ready to do. Are there objections?
-
Since it seems I'm getting lynched anyway....
Remember the whole "insane" post about Way of the Train style Pokemon and train tracks are dangerous? Train... tracks... are dangerous? (If none of you figured it out, then good, since I wouldn't want to let scum know.) I'm a Tracker with limited shots. Which is actually a pretty cool role for Vanilla +, so credit to QuietRain for coming up with that. (Due to the limited shots I obviously did not use it on Night 0 when there'd be no kill to possibly track.)
Also I obviously didn't say so at the time, but the other reason I'm a fan of random blather posts on early Day1 is that it allows breadcrumbing like that to be fit in more easily. Probably a discussion for another time, though.
-
I've been in the middle of writing a post on Snow (still have it saved, will get back to it if there's any use now, or at the start of day 2 assuming I'm still around and people care), but crunch time is upon us. As usual I'm trying not to be universally swayed by last minute actions, which pull at my strings for townie, but I guess in turn if he is scum there's nothing left to try, although why not claim cop etc. etc.. The only potential weirdness is the limited shot deelie, which I don't believe was listed in the set up, but then the same goes for the one shot bulletproof and more recently the no mention of Team Aqua at the start.
-
"Role-madness but not the way you think it is." My guess is that the more powerful roles all have limited-shot roles, to distribute the power - it's role madness in that everyone's got a role, and several of them powerful, but the power level of Night isn't through the roof. Which, if true, would be pretty neat.
-
Busy day at the lab, I didn't have time to do a decent reread and find a suitable canditade.
One thing though, is there a point in lynching SF now? Seems like he just boarded the NK Express with his roleclaim, because either he's telling the truth and will be killed by scum, or is a lying scum and will be... killed by the other scum.
-
"Thou shalt not suffer scum to live" an' all that.
-
Actually, rather than wait for the hammer to fall at any minute, let's start off with:
##Unvote: Snowfire
I'm unconvinced that saving him makes sense yet, but I'll at least allow myself the chance to puzzle it out. (still writing the Snow stuff, haven't suddenly lost it or anything)
-
Bleh, work. Sigh. I don't see a point in not lynching Snow. Expecting Scum to do your work for you in any way that will end up being good is a losing proposition for sure, I'd say.
Whatever, this day needs to end. Limited-use Tracker really isn't something I'm going to shed tears over, nor will anyone else who's spoken up. I said I'd do it, I'm doing it.
... aaaaand Ninja'd by Xanth. Alrighty then, I suppose that's fair enough. Now what?
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(6): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(1): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(0): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
Excal (1): SnowFire
SirAlex (1): Bardiche
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline in a little less than 12 hours.
-
(written, re-written and added to between other posts already gone, so the timing will sound odd)
Given that the hammer hasn't immediately fallen, I'll at least continue writing this. Snow's last minute actions have really wrenched at me, but I'll finish writing it as it was meant to be written just before the 'deadline':
Finally on to Snow.
Getting beyond the chaos at the start, there's a lot to process. There are a lot of things he says that I disagree with, but it's a right mess working out what's actually scummy. For instance, I disagree with just about everything he's said about the extension, but this just reads as genuinely different expectations. I really don't get the move with Sylon, which I thought was a crazy train to begin with, but had good rights of being there come the time of there being other trains, so as much as I still don't understand the 'let's push someone out' mentality from the start, I don't see the need to argue it down when it's relevant later short of a good claim on someone else, which... he distinctly doesn't have when he votes for me for no reason other than it's not the Sylon train, which in itself set off warning bells for dropping a vote down but pointedly washing his hands of responsibility for it (no, not like Me/NotMe).
I don't dislike the choosing between relevant targets, but don't see how the balance fell to voting for the 'neutral' feel on me.
The flitting around between a whole bunch of people without ever actually settling down is another concern. There's nothing inherently wrong with several changes near the start of day one (slowly building up from crap case to slightly less crap case is fair enough), but by the second half of the day this built up to having a bunch of neutral and neutral-to-town reads, and what rationale he had was single issue at best and quickly left behind (the vote on Ryogo is particularly weird). Given how much he's then caught up defending himself and Sylon, the first opinions on anyone we hear after that is right before the 'deadline', which I can somewhat respect from being under heavy fire and needing to prioritise, but don't understand why nothing was present before then.
So bleh, I don't think it's a particularly bad case for day one, but nothing especially new from me there. The problem now is that I just don't understand Snow's last minute actions as scum at all. I'm pressed to see how much this should count, or if there is another option to fly towards (I'd be okay for Meeple or one of the lurkers (but not OK) at the moment), but his claim adds up and doesn't tally as a weird random scum ploy. Even if he was trying on some crazy course of knowing that I'm weak to these last minute pleas, he couldn't possibly expect me to reverse such a big deficit.
-
Strago: what now? I think either you stick with Snow and put your vote down anyway and convince me or someone else to follow suit, or we enter dialogue about whether it's plausible to shift elsewhere (my number one concern with going elsewhere is that I don't want a last minute scramble).
-
I guess the crux of things for me right now, Xanth, is: how do we organize ourselves enough to move over to a new lynch, at this point? It took us around 48 hours to get here, now! And we won't just get lyncher's guilt when whoever the next player in question is makes their roleclaim in twelve hours? I just don't see the point. Cut our losses, end the day. Am I wrong?
NINJA'd: Yeah, you're right. I can't see any good coming of dragging this out further.
##VOTE: SnowFire
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(7): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom, Strago
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(1): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(0): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): Ryogo
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
Excal (1): SnowFire
SirAlex (1): Bardiche
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline in about 11 1/2 hours. SNOWFIRE is at -1 to HAMMER.
-
Alright, back now. I'll start with Snow. Basically, the argument that his actions as scum make no sense is countered by the fact that he really does seem sincere in his disbelief that we'd find anything scummy in his defense of Sylon. If he didn't believe that his defense would net him so much scrutiny, then it makes sense for him to mount that defense. As for the issue of defending Sylon, who is now confirmed town, the way he went about it does leave him with some cover if you assume he is scum. After all, he's defended someone who was at threat of lynch and can later be proved to be town (though less certain in this game unless his faction has a cop that checked Sylon night 0, which seems a tad bit too convoluted), and if Xanth is indeed town, and he gets lynched. Well, don't blame Snow, he was forced to vote that way and repeatedly said he thought the guy was neutral.
Game Theory Discussion Follows: Snow, I can see where you're coming from on the Day length issue. But personally I think 36 hours is about the perfect length for Day 1 as it gives us enough time for stuff to happen, a bit of joking, and then to actually get a half decent lynch going. 48-72 is about right for following days when we actually have things to talk about. Also, when it comes to who to lynch on Day 1, I suppose there is a good argument for going for people who talk and might give us something for Day 2, but the price is having people who don't talk being a higher proportion of those around in the later days as well.
As for other people, follow up post for that as I don't want to face hammer ninjas. And most of them will still be around tomorrow.
-
POST NOTE: I'm making points as I read through the thread, so if things have already been said, its because I've made my remarks before I got to whatever someone else had posted. Only thing I knew at the start of post was that Sylon had dropped from the game.
QuietRain (0): EvilTom
I hate to be fussy over small things, but that wasn't actually me.
And yeah, it was me that did the jokevote against you Rain. Doesn't really matter though, I can't exactly lynch you anyways :P
------------------------------
Ryogo, you've been around since this all went down, as evidenced by your avatar and flavor text change. What are your opinions on the situation?
First of all, yes, I was around for until about 12:30 AM (T-2:30 hours to deadline for me). I didn't post anything because, well, I didn't have anything to say at the time :S I still felt the Sylon Case was the best we had at the time. Obviously, that's changed now.
If I had've seen this before I logged out and went to bed for the night, I would whipped up a post with my thoughts. But this was posted about an hour after I went to bed. I actually wasn't around for a lot of the stuff you think I was. But I will give you my comments and thoughts about it!
Snowfire having a townie vibe on Sylon really irked me, earlier. He hadn't done anything, and drew all his conclusions from what other people were doing around him. Then he didn't even actually go after any of 'em (let's not forget that part of his hypothesis was 'lots of people voting for one guy seems bad and untrustworthy'), instead focusing on the unrelated Xanth. Yeah sure don't vote Sylon because you think he's just sick or whatever, but actually going out and saying 'he's townlike!' is way too weird.
Have to agree on your thought process here by Rat. SF's logic here is not the best of logic to follow... Its just downright horrible.
Xanth is average - 5.
Sylon is, to me, mildly townie - 4.
SnowFire is extremely townie - 0.
SirAlex is, to me, mildly scummy - 6.
If the choice is between Xanth and Sylon - well, 5>4 ! Thus it may make sense to vote for a "random" - if the only other options are even worse.
If Alex was scummier to you, why didn't you put your votes down for him?? 5 may be greater than 4, but 6 is even larger than both! This is just adding strikes to the board. (Reading on later, noticed Delta makes the same point, so I guess I second it.)
Also, I noticed that OblivionKnight and Strago have tried to keep a particularly low profile as well, specially the later. I just think Sylon's case is worse right now for actively trying to keep it down even when the attention was onto him.
Strago, maybe. He's been talking, if not frequently, but at least he's participating.
OK? I'm not sure "Low profile" counts so much as he hasn't been here at all. As I said, though, I haven't seen him much online in the past 24 hours at all, so there's a good chance he actually has legit RL reasons; though if this keeps up throughout the next day, I'm expecting a modkill.
Also seconded. I'd really like to hear from OK, but at this point it seems like that'll have to wait until tomorrow? If he doesn't show, he'll be MK'd and if he does, we can light a fire under his ass later. Same goes for Strago, but to a much lesser degree. See much more from him now, am happy.
]Ryogo says something here about Carthrat on which I call shenanigans in a big way: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54979#msg54979. Namely that because he hasn’t shown up on the “active users logged in” list, he must necessarily not be lurking. What. Do you know how easy it is to log out of the boards and still be very actively reading the thread and even writing your posts? It is so easy. I’m not saying “lynch Rat” – dude’s an Aussie, after all – but that is a specious reason to wave away suspicion.
Honestly, I never thought of that before :-\ I just have my account set to "Log in Forever" so I just kinda assumed people did the same. Never thought of logging out to pretend you're not on. I'll keep that in mind from now on.
Bard makes good points against Alex, and so far, I'm inclined to agree, especially after the roleclaim by Snow. Only problem with a roleclaim in this game is I think we ALL have some kind of little poké power. If not a permanent one, a one shot deal.
Bah, more later. Currently at the start of page 8. I have to run to class now though, so rest of thoughts have to wait.
For now, I'd rather have my vote somewhere rather than no where.
Ahh! Just noticed Snow is minus one to hammer with newest votecount.
##VOTE: SirAlex
People still seem to be discussing, there's still time left in the day, and I agree with Bard on points against SirAlex. I'll review the rest of the thread upon return in 2 hours, and then see what I think. Its looking like a SnowFire lynch right now though.
P.S., Sorry for what looks like a huge wall of text, but its mostly quotes taking up the space.
-
Alright, this is just generally going to be first impressions and other such as there's a few things I need to do before I can do some research.
Alright, going into the final stretch last night, there was a small list of people who I found odd.
Snowfire and Meeple were both people for whom their opening simply left me wondering what was up. Unfortunatly, Meeple always does that, so I generally disregard it, and Snow's I couldn't see how it would benefit either side, and so also ignored it in the face of better cases.
Sylon had the confirmed lurk in his favour, which was leaving me generally content to leave my vote on him since it looked to be the best case we had on anyone.
Alex had the fact that he had dropped a vote on Sylon, confirmed it was a serious vote, and then didn't make any other cases for a long time.
Then came what should have been the end of Day 1. Kilga, gave solid reasons, and both of his train memberships are well explained, so he's probably the strongest pro-town player for me at the moment.
Bard, I'm not sure what to make of him. He comes in with some decent points about Alex, but he's also jumping on Xanth for not writing an essay with about five minutes left in the day with his neck on the line? Where he was in a situation where at any point the mod could say Hatbot demanded his head, and he had the power to change that? Then again, I suppose I'm also still a little bit biased by that last second extension which, yeah. Leaves us spending more time without some tools that would have been quite helpful.
Rat also moved up in my estimation. Though, the Rat is always high in my respect for his ability to play, so I am always suspicious of him.
Anyways, hopefully I will have time to actually do some research before day ends. But, if not, I don't think added thoughts will help today anyways. I can't see anyone looking worse than Snow to me today.
Edit: Oh, hey, Ryogo lives! Didn't drop a hammer, so let's post then read.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(7): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom, Strago
Carthrat(1): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(1): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(0): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): Ryogo
Ryogo (0): SnowFire
Excal (1): SnowFire
SirAlex (2): Bardiche, Ryogo
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline in about 10 1/2 hours. SNOWFIRE is at -1 to HAMMER.
-
...play slower!
Ok, on a side note, it always amuses me how mafia arguments begin. I think it's one of the awesome dynamics of the game.
I apologize that I've been out lately - yesterday was insane, but I'm back...thankfully with an extension. I was hoping I could make a post at work, but no go - looks like I can't get around the blocks anymore.
First off
##Unvote: Carthrat
Going to try to split this into pieces so I don't wall of text everyone. Beginning at the beginning...
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54838#msg54838
Ok...so there was initial comments over this? The vote/unvote in the same post? I agree with Carth on this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54911#msg54911). I find his initial posts to be joking (and ones I legitimately laughed at, so...), not bad. Maybe if he did it later on? I could see calling him out on it, especially if he kept it, since we get no reasoning from him, but...not now. (I know this is old, but I wanted to comment on it anyway)
In regards to the Sylon train (heh...Cylon)...it jumped out fairly fast, and matter-of-factly from several people. I don't have a strong feeling on this - the best possible latches for the day thus far were either jump on someone and see where it ends up or jump on the aforementioned Snowfire's odd posting structure. I don't think either are exceptionally strong, and don't have a preference - the latter isn't a tell at all, and the former is usual day 1 training for information. I do understand why we would try to move a lynch along (short days, though extensions; town shouldn't sit on its hands all day doing nothing, since it leads to shitty circumstances and confusion), and to comment, Bardiche, I don't think we'd move so fast we lose the whole day - if we came down to it, we would probably hold a bit to make sure everyone got the chance to vote/discuss, even with a vote leader (like right now). So I can see going both ways, and I feel that I would prefer to move on the Sylon train at that time. My reasoning for this is to move something along, as I don't feel the case for Snowfire at the time was strong (read: currently reading through things, so not up to the current case), and, as noted before, even pushing his vote count up will not kill him so fast as to end discussion, but likely move him to talk more (granted, this ends up being for nought anyway - leaving us with the only other foreleader case).
The next relevant follow-up of cases I see is Xanth/Meeple. And...I don't make anything of them. The votes are jumps on them for...seemingly random things. I don't make much out of them. Meeple looks the most suspicious of them, but not enough for me to really get flagged - well, no, looking at the Xanth vote while encouraging a Sylon lynch...mmm...flags a bit. Looking at it now...does make me wonder how much of a bait it was, and if it's really...leading for things. Almost a bit hippo.
In regards to extension and pluarlity vs. hammer, I am in favour of the hammer. I don't think we should end by plurality. While we still get info...I think it's easier to get it from a hammer. If people choose not vote and just let the forerunners die? We don't get as much as we could, and it's harder to pull information out of them. Whereas a hammer feels like a stronger execution.
It's about this stage (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54970#msg54970) that I realize Alex, Tom, and Carth haven't been around for a bit. Not that this is a tell anyway - 1700 my time isn't a normal time for them. And they post eventually anyway.
My thoughts on the extension...well, it allowed me to post, so that's good, but I agree with Alex that it's generally bad for town, as will just shit around for a while and the same thing will come up. Overall, I wouldn't have supported it, but that's water under the bridge.
Ok, stopping here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55020#msg55020
-
##Unvote: I'm fairly sure he's town.
-
Well I screwed that up. ##Unvote;.. 8am lectures suck after 5 hours sleep.
Anyway, I thought it was 50% likely he was town before, and the roleclaim + sylong's flip gives me another +50%. As such, I'm completely unwilling to lynch SF.
Posting from class, so more in a bit hopefully (aware of time limits).
-
"Thou shalt not suffer scum to live" an' all that.
I don't see a point in not lynching Snow. Expecting Scum to do your work for you in any way that will end up being good is a losing proposition for sure, I'd say.
Those seem more like philosophical points than ones actually based on the GT of this variant of the game. I guess I could put it that I believe that town playing this as Mafia, instead of Multiple Factions Mafia is the actual losing proposition.
But then again, there's the fact that I don't really believe Snow is scum, and I wouldn't like to do scum's work for them.
Frankly, the one that bothers me the most right now is Ryogo. Of his three posts, the first (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54979#msg54979) is just some "maybe, but maybe not" weak opinions, at the end of which he just goes into the Sylon train. The second (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55004#msg55004) is basically him arguing that it's okay for his reasons to be weak. And the third (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55203#msg55203) seems little more than quoting and repetition of other's opinions during the day.
I can definitely feel the "sneaky scum" vibe in that, so ##Vote: Ryogo seems like the best case to me right now.
-
Quick post just to say that I'm back from work, and reading through the thread now. Need to catch up on some of the latest developments. Post to follow.
-
Ryogo!
- Ryogo: Calls out Rat for his "all aboard the Sylon train woo woo!" reasoning and then turns around and does the same thing.
Why was doing this okay? I'd still like to know.
-
So I now do agree with Alex that Snowfire sounds very hippo here. Although the death of Sylon does make me rethink this a little bit - if there are two scum teams, Snowfire defending him does not seem like a scum move, since one scum team is not likely going to know the other team's identities, so he could randomly be defending an ally. If Sylon flipped scum, I think I might be more in favour of pushing him. But...not right now. It's a bit hippo, and the logic is somewhat questionable. Granted, Snowfire...when it's the close to deadline, it seems odd and a bit stupid to call out for an extension, especially when people are giving reasons why not. Yes, town discussion is good, BUT, as Alex said, we can get confusion! Confusion and time are bad, and can sully information. Nothing new is really going to come up, I think, that would be helpful. That's why the first day is short - to get speed into the new days.
I think it is very hard, nigh-impossible, really, to have a townie/scummy list on day 1. You have so damn little to go on. http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55061#msg55061 ...you call him a confirmed townie. Why? I've read through all this...and I don't know why. Unless you're a psychic pokemon or something, how do you know he's town before he dies? You seem to dig yourself deeper with this post: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55090#msg55090. "Making a fuss over Sylon would - to me at least - be a town-aligned move. And if Sylon was scum, then this would fulfill both a scum's goals- defend their buddy without looking too suspicious (to people like me who think lynching a person mostly not around is useless). Obviously if you don't buy that defending Sylon is particularly town-friendly, ignore this! But I do." I said why this is off earlier - if he were to pop scum, this would make you look worse, to me! This is making me want to vote for you, except I want to know where this assurance of Sylon being town came from.
Now, your claim...mmm...wouldn't trackers follow anyone? See what they do? You could have tracked anyone last night...though, no idea how many shots, and not everyone could act, so....
...wait a second. So...if you didn't use this, how could you be sure Sylon was town? Maybe reading through 10 pages of mafia in less than 30 minutes has meshed it together, but where do you say you're sure? You've just said it's not your role...so....how? He flipped town, sure...but this means you are either lying, or...well, your logic?
Please tell me why you were so sure, because I have no idea, and I find that more damning than the other stuff, since now you've kind of forced yourself into a logic hole - a deep one.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(6): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom, Strago
Carthrat(0): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(1): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(0): Bardiche, Xanth
QuietRain (0): Ryogo
Ryogo (1): SnowFire, Nietz
Excal (1): SnowFire
SirAlex (2): Bardiche, Ryogo
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline in about 8 1/2 hours.
-
I agree with the cases on both Excal and Alex. They've victimised Snow quite a lot and even misrepresented his stance several times to make it look more scummy than it is; http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55052#msg55052 and http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55056#msg55056 and I find it incredibly concerning when people say "well he's at -1, we should lynch him otherwise we'll be suspicious of him in later days based on precedent." I'm looking at you Strago. There's no reason to lynch someone who is likely town simply because they've been pushed there.
I can't see any reason for Snow to be scum. As such, Alex and Excal are my targets.
They were the first ones on the Snow train... crap clas ending, gotta run. Will return at next available internet!
##Vote Excal for now
-
Ryogo!
- Ryogo: Calls out Rat for his "all aboard the Sylon train woo woo!" reasoning and then turns around and does the same thing.
Why was doing this okay? I'd still like to know.
Sure. I can answer this really quickly before I start my next post. What I meant by that was that Carthrat jumped on the train without giving a reason, other than "Sure, why not." I at least threw my own reasoning down on the table. I felt him suspicious because he had been lurking, and had been confirmed to have been on the forums frequently without defending himself from the votes put down on them. Even when the votes started to get serious. I was just saying Cat hadn't thrown any reasons down, and had ONLY said "all aboard the Sylon train woo woo!" at the time.
-
Still kind of here on and off, but have just started on a film. Haven't really read back up to date. I guess I should be expected to put my vote where my mouth is than just sit here voteless for so long, but if that's not Snow then it's Meeple (who in turn hasn't been back on) rather than Alex or Excal, but if nothing else I don't like how this is proceeding towards another random squeeze at the end of the day.
##Vote: Meeple for current intention, at least, but am growing more concerned about a late day clusterfuck.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(6): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom, Strago
Carthrat(0): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(1): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(1): Bardiche, Xanth, Xanth
QuietRain (0): Ryogo
Ryogo (1): SnowFire, Nietz
Excal (2): SnowFire, EvilTom
SirAlex (2): Bardiche, Ryogo
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline in a little less than 8 hours hours.
-
General comments: To some extent now that Sylon has flipped, the Sylon train / arguments is water under the bridge. And... Sylon wasn't scum. So... obviously there are a whole mess of reasons for voting against me, but it seems one of the biggest ones is "Snow's logic is all wrong." Obviously scum to some extent "know" at least some of who's innocent (though with two scumteams, less so) and thus can be tempted into using fallacious logic, but... all I can say is that I'm sincere in my theory which apparently went over like a lead balloon. Excal is right that this isn't a town-tell- "sincere" applies both to sincere townies and scummers sincerely trying to be town - but I'd humbly suggest it isn't a scumtell either. Your results may vary.
There's also EvilTom's point - a Snow/Sylon team was admittedly a possibility when viewed from afar, and lynching one of us to find out would have had some value... but we know better now.
Responses / Thoughts (WARNING: This is a genuine Wall of Text, my apologies):
Nietz, a long time ago, re me: "I can't say I like how the Sylon wagon has waned without him having to do anything. And I like even less how SnowFire argues that Sylon is town exactly for doing nothing."
I don't want to go back to the moot point too much, but that wasn't quite my theory. My theory was that if Sylon was scum, then his scumbuddy was failing it up massively, which I found somewhat implausible.
Strago: Think you sort of... shot yourself in the foot here, Snow. I see what sort of devil's advocate stuff you're trying to say, here, but actually for me it suddenly highlights in very stark relief the weirdness of your Sylon defense.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55146#msg55146
Er... sorry? It's Day1. I was undercutting myself because obviously it WAS possible that Sylon was scum, due to the aforementioned possible holes in my little "theory" (scumbuddies not acting as planned, away, etc.). I'm not sure why numbers fill you with bloodrage, but that was an extreme oversimplification because my "I don't have much on Xanth but he's the best option" statement was drawing fire. I was trying to show a very simple case where this would obviously make sense.
Strago again: This is especially true, to my mind, since it seems like whatever other lynch took place would not be spurred on by any persuasive argument by SnowFire himself,
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55169#msg55169
This is my fault, I will grant, I should have been doing this more actively last night. Remember, however, that I was strongly hoping (and even expecting?) the extension and for new material to work with. The main thing I got off the Sylon train was that Sylon was mildly more likely to be town, and going to bat for people you think are likelier to be town is also an important pro-town role. Knowing who NOT to lynch is also valuable. That said, yes, I probably should have posted more on my own suspicions.
Yoshiken: I can appreciate the odd mistake, but something as basic as (the same thing everyone else has brought up about) voting for "Just because" after giving that as the reason not to vote is majorly flawed.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55175#msg55175
The Xanth vote was entirely an artifact of the fact that I thought the day might end too soon before any new content could come up, be digested, and form a new lynch train, and I said as much. If the day had been 58 hours long from the get-go it never would have happened. So, yes: I said I wasn't happy with that vote!
Kilgamayan: "Thou shalt not suffer scum to live" an' all that.
You're awfully certain I'm scum.
Xanth: (the vote on Ryogo is particularly weird)
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55197#msg55197
I'm actually still really ambivalent on Ryogo. Not many posts to work with, but they haven't felt very useful, and he also hopped on board the questionable-to-me Sylon train. Granted, it's Day 1. He ranks in my "keep an eye on" list, certainly.
Strago: Cut our losses, end the day. Am I wrong?
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55199#msg55199
"Cut our losses?" How about "do the best lynch we can?" People were giving me crap for "settling for the second best" on Xanth, but now we've got plenty of time. Let's get a lynch we can all get behind, not an "eh, whatever" lynch.
Ryogo: If Alex was scummier to you, why didn't you put your votes down for him?? 5 may be greater than 4, but 6 is even larger than both! This is just adding strikes to the board. (Reading on later, noticed Delta makes the same point, so I guess I second it.)
Again, again, I didn't vote for SirAlex at the time because he had 0 votes, the day was ending soon, and I was trying to get to bed with a nasty cold. See the game theory arguments elsewhere. If I'd known I wouldn't be able to sleep, or if I'd known the extension would have gone through, then I would have voted differently, obviously. At the time of that post, it was something like 5 -Xanth, 4- Sylon, 3- Me. Unvoting Xanth and leaving would potentially have gotten me or Sylon lynched given no extension, and I wanted neither of those outcomes.
Excal: Kilga, gave solid reasons, and both of his train memberships are well explained, so he's probably the strongest pro-town player for me at the moment.
I can't say I agree with this at the moment - I find Kilgamayan's reasons pretty bad, but obviously I have a radically different viewpoint on things here. That said I will concede that Kilgamayan does not appear particularly scummier than average, since I can very much see "townie with irreconcilable differences with SnowFire at the moment."
Carthrat: I'm... still not sure what to make of him. Perhaps will come back later.
OblivionKnight: This is making me want to vote for you, except I want to know where this assurance of Sylon being town came from.
I was not sure Sylon was town. People are making a huge, huge error: you can be strongly against something without necessarily "knowing!" Perhaps I should bring the numbers up again: You should be strongly in favor of earning 10 dollars over 2 dollars, but you should be just as strongly in favor of earning 5 dollars over 4 dollars. Saying "Sylon is a bad lynch" != "Sylon is confirmed town!" As for my argument in favor of Sylon... I'd just be repeating myself again.
Still plenty of time left in the day, so I fully expect that those who believe that trains can change at any time are willing to reconsider things and not go along with an SF lynch "just because."
Will try and post again, as there's still stuff I need to respond to as well as advance theories. Short version: Let's lynch Excal or Sir Alex, they both have suspicious points to me. Will expand on that more below.
EDIT: Edit was after the game completed, fixing italics for posterity, that's why I wasn't modkilled.
-
Aw, dang it. Can a mod edit my post to fix the italics? I did preview, but I made a few modifications and one addition which screwed everything up afterward.
-
Why does Meeple concern more than Alex, or Excal for that matter?
-
To Xanth. Knew I forgot something.
-
On second thought I'll try and keep this short, since I already posted a giant WoT.
One last response: OblivionKnight: You say you're still suspicious of me. I'll give another look at your post next, but is there anything in particular you want me to explain?
As for scumhunting....
Snow, just curious. Do you actually have a reason as to why Sylon is town besides that he's sick? I mean, sure, he could be a townie who's not feeling well and can't think of anything to say. Though he could also be a scum who's not feeling well and can't think of anything to say. Both sides can have that same excuse. So where does your certainty come from?
But what gets to me is the logic that not only is the excuse a good reason not to lynch him, but that we should lynch Xanth instead specifically to save him. However, more important is the reasoning used to pick between the two. Namely, that Xanth talks. What the hell kind of reasoning is that? We want to have a lurker over someone who actually participates?
Honestly, I'm not sold on Sylon, but some people have made some pretty good cases for him. Xanth I don't see the case on at all. But you, Snow? Yeah, I'm definatly feeling that right now, so.
##Unvote: Sylon, ##Vote: Snowfire
EvilTom already raised this post, and it's one of the reasons why I'm mildly more interested in an Excal lynch than a SirAlex lynch. Obviously lots of townies disagreed with my posts too - but this post is just obviously twisting my words to be in the worst possible light. Excal had already voted for Sylon, and he now aggressively casts my logic as "kill people who talk." SirAlex to some extent feels like he could have just been taking exception what what I was saying, but Excal's fire-starting hop-on rubs me the wrong way.
Re SirAlex: Well, I'll be the one playing me-too here, since I think I've Wall of Texted enough. Suffice to say I'm inclined to agree with what Bardiche says here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55150#msg55150). SirAlex's actions earlier on the Sylon train are suspicious - perhaps I should have harped on this more myself, I'll grant, rather than just wagging my finger at him last night- and he then hops on me after the Sylon train starts growing suspicious to stay on. Strago's point against Bardiche - scum sometimes raise a last minute case to look good to town- kind of applies to SirAlex against me, as well, though obviously this last-minute case has had lots of success.
My vote stays on Excal, but I am totally willing to move it to SirAlex if need be, which it might be. Not sure what to make of Xanth's suggested Meeple train, will take another look at his posts. Obviously I have a preference to live, so coming up with a good alternative target that we can agree on (that hopefully isn't me) would be cool.
-
Snowyfire:
Ok...I do apologize for saying you said he was confirmed town...I thought I remembered reading that you did say he was confirmed and you were sure he was town, but after another look...I can't find it. So maybe spam reading all those posts made my brain explode. Though...
This: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55090#msg55090
"...albeit at the cost of confirmed townie me now being in the spotlight"
I understand you want him to post again to see his views, which is understandable. Still, confirmed townie? No. If you were confirmed, you wouldn't have votes on you. Not sure what this says, but it's odd that when you're in danger, you start adding this.
This: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55100#msg55100
"...On the downside we lynched sure town, but so it goes"
Where does this come from? This is what I think I took as you saying he was confirmed. The grammar and context are a bit off, so I thought you were referring to Sylon here. I don't know where this fits, in context, now that I look at it. Can you clarify? It's an ODD thing to say at this stage, though.
This: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55020#msg55020
"If Sylon is scum with RL issues, then his (or her?) scumbuddy should seriously be trying to kick up a racket about an extension so that Sylon could have a shot (kind of like what I'm doing now), something that could be done without necessarily tying their cases together"
So...bleh, Not sure what to make of this with his flip. I was originally reading this as a death-note, but...no. I do understand the logic in protecting him so he can say something. Something about this does bug me though - I'm sure a scum jumped on the extension wagon, but the key is did a scum or town start it? Mmm...
Well, I've now confused myself. Could you do me a favour and answer my query? I'm still trying to analyze all this information. I think you might just be a misguided townie, but I want to clarify.
-
Okay, OK response.
I think it is very hard, nigh-impossible, really, to have a townie/scummy list on day 1. You have so damn little to go on. http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55061#msg55061 ...you call him a confirmed townie. Why? I've read through all this...and I don't know why.
Except... I don't. Let me quote my paragraph in full:
--
Ninja posts: No, that's not what I'm saying. Le sigh. I am saying that I personally have a mild townie read on Sylon from others' responses if not Sylon himself. You are free to disagree with that, but that's what I think. I personally have no read on Xanth. If you are given a choice between a confirmed townie and a random, you vote random! If you are given a choice between someone who you think is more likely to be townie than average and random, you still vote random even though you're not as sure! It's a crappy choice though, so hint hint hint what have I been railing about for a bunch of my posts that rhymes with "retention?"
--
This goes back to why it's important to get "town" reads on people and not just "scum" reads. I say that if given the choice between a confirmed townie and a random, you vote for the random candidate.. which I hope you agree with? I then move into the "likely to be town vs. random" case, which actually was what was happening that night for Xanth vs. Sylon to me.
Unless you're a psychic pokemon or something, how do you know he's town before he dies? You seem to dig yourself deeper with this post: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55090#msg55090. "Making a fuss over Sylon would - to me at least - be a town-aligned move. And if Sylon was scum, then this would fulfill both a scum's goals- defend their buddy without looking too suspicious (to people like me who think lynching a person mostly not around is useless). Obviously if you don't buy that defending Sylon is particularly town-friendly, ignore this! But I do." I said why this is off earlier - if he were to pop scum, this would make you look worse, to me! This is making me want to vote for you, except I want to know where this assurance of Sylon being town came from.
No, it's absolutely true - if Sylon had flipped scum I would have looked worse (if you aren't me and thus can't self-confirm innocence). So? There are plenty of times where legitimate townie behavior will make you look suspicious. I know you weren't in Simpsons Mafia, but Excal was under heavy suspicion a lot of the game and was eventually lynched despite being a townie there for reasons that really weren't his fault at all.
Now, your claim...mmm...wouldn't trackers follow anyone? See what they do? You could have tracked anyone last night...though, no idea how many shots, and not everyone could act, so....
...wait a second. So...if you didn't use this, how could you be sure Sylon was town? Maybe reading through 10 pages of mafia in less than 30 minutes has meshed it together, but where do you say you're sure? You've just said it's not your role...so....how? He flipped town, sure...but this means you are either lying, or...well, your logic?
Please tell me why you were so sure, because I have no idea, and I find that more damning than the other stuff, since now you've kind of forced yourself into a logic hole - a deep one.
Already said it, but I wasn't sure Sylon was town, but I felt he was more likely to be town, and I believe that town should lynch the *best* choice every Day, and Sylon was not the best choice.
Ack, ninja. Will post this anyway.
-
Snowyfire:
Ok...I do apologize for saying you said he was confirmed town...I thought I remembered reading that you did say he was confirmed and you were sure he was town, but after another look...I can't find it. So maybe spam reading all those posts made my brain explode. Though...
This: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55090#msg55090
"...albeit at the cost of confirmed townie me now being in the spotlight"
I understand you want him to post again to see his views, which is understandable. Still, confirmed townie? No. If you were confirmed, you wouldn't have votes on you. Not sure what this says, but it's odd that when you're in danger, you start adding this.
The confirmed townie was one SnowFire who was in the spotlight. He got a bunch of votes after defending Sylon.
This: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55100#msg55100
"...On the downside we lynched sure town, but so it goes"
Where does this come from? This is what I think I took as you saying he was confirmed. The grammar and context are a bit off, so I thought you were referring to Sylon here. I don't know where this fits, in context, now that I look at it. Can you clarify? It's an ODD thing to say at this stage, though.
Confirmed townie SnowFire had 5 votes, Xanth had 4 votes, the deadline was in 5 minutes, I was ready to roleclaim.
Well, I've now confused myself. Could you do me a favour and answer my query? I'm still trying to analyze all this information. I think you might just be a misguided townie, but I want to clarify.
Any other questions I'll be happy to answer, sure.
-
Ok, I'm back and...OH GOD WALL OF TEXT SPAM MY BRAIN *cries*
Drama aside...
OK speaking, good! Not getting much out of him since he's obviously speaking as someone (whatever he's aligned too) who just got back and had to go through the Day 1 Cluster fuck and sum up all his thoughts on it, so, yeah, not getting anything based off him. Neutral vibes!
Sylon's death hurts, but it does help shed-light in Snow. I generally agree that a Scum protecting another town in a multi-scum game is very risky; him simply not knowing the identity of Sylon at all and trying to be a cautious town protecting someone put on trial for no reason other than "lets train him! Besides, he hasn't spoken much!" says a lot. Actually, thinking on it, I think ALEX a few times in the past has outright stated "LAL is completely irrelevant on Day 1." You'll note I didn't push for "Kill OK!" when he wasn't speaking; more just "damn it, speak up already!" (and he did.)
My position on Xanth...well, thing is, I still don't see a good enough reason to remove it. Its Day 1, so I don't have a strong reason to KEEP IT, but that early game play has left me with a bad taste (attacking Snowfire's Voting himself DURING THE JOKE PHASE, going after Delta that way, the vote that very much had an "OMGUS/Me-too" vibes to it, etc. These are minor, but its Day 1; its very hard to find sufficient evidence.) I don't see any significantly better targets, and as I said, I was willing to hammer if only to end the day if it came to that.
Alex's things on Snowfire feel like he's sniping at Snow for being...Snow. I dunno; like I said, its day 1 shenanigans; you go with what you got.
I don't think there's a strong feeling on ANYONE at the moment, basically; rather than sum up everything in a long Wall of Text, I'll just stay with that. Its Day 1, and people are grasping for straws wherever possible, trying to validate the scenario. The Sylon flip does help us shed some light on actions, I suppose, and it does make Snowfire look a little better in retrospective, though he's hardly in the clearing. At this point, I just want this god damn day to end.
In fairness, the Extension DID help as it allowed a few more people to speak up and some people even changed their mind on Snowfire, so in that regards, Alex (I think it was) was wrong. Not sure that says much about Alex's role in this game, though, its worth noting that Snowfire was dangerously close to being lynched at the Deadline, and Alex is one of the people strong arming the Snowfire train.
-
Snowyfire:
Ok...I do apologize for saying you said he was confirmed town...I thought I remembered reading that you did say he was confirmed and you were sure he was town, but after another look...I can't find it. So maybe spam reading all those posts made my brain explode. Though...
This: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55090#msg55090
"...albeit at the cost of confirmed townie me now being in the spotlight"
I understand you want him to post again to see his views, which is understandable. Still, confirmed townie? No. If you were confirmed, you wouldn't have votes on you. Not sure what this says, but it's odd that when you're in danger, you start adding this.
The confirmed townie was one SnowFire who was in the spotlight. He got a bunch of votes after defending Sylon.
No, I understand you're talking about yourself here as "confirmed townie". I'm just wondering how you came to that logic (obviously, you know yourself), and why it popped up so suddenly (obviously, you're in danger). It just came up so suddenly, and you seemed to tie it there to defending Sylon. It's a bit...odd, to me.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(6): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom, Strago
Carthrat(0): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(1): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(1): Bardiche, Xanth, Xanth
QuietRain (0): Ryogo
Ryogo (1): SnowFire, Nietz
Excal (2): SnowFire, EvilTom
SirAlex (2): Bardiche, Ryogo
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline in about seven hours.
Last vote count before heading home. Will be offline for an hour or two.
-
OK: Eh, it was my attempt at dry humor. Obviously all the townies here are 100% sure they are town; if we assume 4 scum / 15 other people, there's a 26.6% chance of any random person being scum. I was trying to convince town not to lynch somebody who I thought was less likely to be scum, and my efforts seemingly had drawn attention to the one person who's alignment I'm sure of, me, so that we went from lynching "likely town" (Sylon) to "sure town" (me, at least from my perspective having seen my PM). Though with any luck, we won't be lynching the "confirmed townie" after all... any thoughts on others?
Meeple: No read at all?! Really? Well, it is Day 1, but I'd tentatively suggest that Alex and Excal are better lynch targets here. Sure, it could just be personality conflict, but perhaps the kind that can kind of look townie yet still not help town. Any thoughts?
That said: I'm going to be out for a bit myself, so be back later.
-
Right, done with that. I can't sensibly be here both now and at 6am, so unless anyone specifically wants me to be around for the final hour (speak up quickly if so, please) I'm going to just plow through stuff now, and then set my alarm for like ten minutes before the deadline in case there's a desperate need for last minute vote changes (although please no).
-
Other reads...well, analyzing all this in a few hours is a pain. Honestly, to begin with, I didn't suspect you at all, then did, then had questions...my overall read on you is that you're speaking and not everything is coming out clear. Some of the logic jumps are a bit odd...but they don't make me think bad. The extension whoring...is bad, and good, so...I don't think I see you as a bad person. I get some good and bad from what I've read so far, but I think the good is outweighing the bad at the moment.
As for others...
Nietz...I have no read on. Being on Ryogo as a vote...ok, that works. He had been absent for a while. Still, I don't know that much here...but going for Ryogo when he did was workable, and...eh, he's contributed. Lurking is more posting and saying jack and shit
Strago's...been more active. I like that. Seems like his normal self, for whatever that's worth. Not threatening to me at the moment.
Xanth...I find fairly good, actually. The contribution is good, he's active, and I haven't had anything significant jump out at me yet.
Tom...posted in a big spurt, not a huge amount, but then returned...protecting Snowy. Mmm...I don't see this as a strike against him.
I guess overall I don't have a strong read on anyone. I'd like to hear more from Delta, I don't have an issue with the initial flare at the game, but I feel like he's been oddly silent thus far.
Alex, Carth...I'll be honest, I can never seem to get a good read on them. Alex has pushed Snowy a bit (a lot), and with decent enough reasons, though it seems like others have taken over for his initial salvo. Carth...somewhat similar.
Like I said, I'm not pulling anything strong towards anyone. I think a flip will help a lot, in this case. I'm mostly throwing around a lot of what ifs in my head right now. Granted, don't want a random lynch and flip.
-
Nietz...I have no read on. Being on Ryogo as a vote...ok, that works. He had been absent for a while. Still, I don't know that much here...but going for Ryogo when he did was workable, and...eh, he's contributed. Lurking is more posting and saying jack and shit
I`m not onto him for lurking in particular, but more because his few posts had Low Original Content and seemed like he was kind of just coasting along the whole day.
Anyway, it seems nobody else was convinced by it. But I don't really have any strong opinions in any of the other ongoing cases and I won't be awake much longer, so my vote will likely stay here until the end of the Day.
-
Alright, going through the rest of the thread, I've noticed a considerable Alex disappearance. This worries me. Would really like to hear from him again before the day is over, at least say something in defense to the claims against him. Hasn't posted since 9 this morning but mentions he's going to bed. I don't know if he's one of those crazy people that live on the OTHER side of the world, but for his sake there, I'll assume so. Pfffft. Crazy peeps.
As of my readings, Alex still is the most viable lynch option in my eyes. The SnowFire train has jumped off the tracks, and I'm will to accept his explanations for his reasoning of voting Excal>Alex. I see him as clear of the chopping block, at least for today. Sorry if I seem ambivalent. I've been busy today, and I'm all around terrible at Mafia anyways/putting my ideas out.
I don't really have much more to say. I've been school working majority of the day and my brain is fried. I just can't analyze right now.
OK has been absent most of this time, so I can't get a solid read off him. His recent posts lean me to believe pro town. Informative, full of opinions on people. Very helpful in my opinion.
Xanth flip-flops in my mind. He seemed pretty dead set on the SnowFire lynch, along with Strago. But when the chance to hammer their number one suspect and end the day that they both were against extending came, both people backed off. That sends some alarm bells ringing for sure to me, but not enough to change my vote.
Other people seem fairly townie to me right now.
-
Nietz: Fair enough, I've some suspicions of Ryogo as well... but if you're getting to bed... would you have any interest in flipping to a target more likely to actually be lynched (with the earlier vote on Ryogo still being noted as a relevant suspicion)? You expressed strong skepticism of my towniness earlier, but didn't vote me. With Sylon's flip, I hope I look at least somewhat better... would you be interested in joining whatever not-Snow train starts? (I am obviously extremely biased and would love to see a not-Snow train form.)
Tentatively, I'm thinking that it may be easier to vote for SirAlex here, since I think EvilTom will be back in time to switch his vote if necessary while I'm not as sure about Ryogo switching his vote... I can always change it later, but announcing intent to switch vote to SirAlex out of interests of self-preservation. if the Excal train doesn't catch any more votes. (I still think Excal is the best lynch, but SnowFire is the worst lynch.)
OK: Fair enough comments. I'll admit a light townie read on Xanth as well (though... I am obviously biased on this), amusingly enough since I was voting for him earlier... though it's tricky, since my light townie-read is mostly due to the fact I think he's taking scum-hunting seriously. But both teams of scum have an incentive to scum-hunt seriously, because they'd like to kill the other scum team, so usual grains of salt.
Ninja'd by Ryogo. Hmm, so you're in favor of lynching Sir Alex? Yeah, I can get behind that about as well as Excal. See above, mostly. Not sure I agree with you on Xanth, though.
-
Awake. Oh god, walls of text.
Strago and OK showed up, good good. I like Strago's thinkings.
Snowfire... is still not voting for me? Ah okay he thinks Excal is scummier now. With Bard coming in to hit me instead, because... I was on a bad case early to get things started, and then moved to a better case once I found one? Inasmuch as Bard has phrased it to sound bad and evil, I think this is pretty much ideal play for day 1 and don't really see anything to defend myself against there? Yeah.
Excal has been hanging back somewhat and I'm getting a bit of a scummy vibe from that... like I get from him every game. Yeah day 1. Reserving judgment there.
Tom is kinda weird and I'm not so happy about his methods. He's just come in, taken easily defensible positions without contributing much and left.
Bard spent the whole day silent, then dropped the last minute extension hammer and came out with a case on me which... as above, seems like a noncase. As Strago and others pointed out, this is rather alarming and a very easy scum stance. There's probably some OMGUS here but he's definitely my second choice at the moment.
Snow is still all over the place. I'll admit outright I'm not reading those walls. Not on day 1. There just isn't enough going on. (Yes, that comes with the caveat that all day 1 cases are bad, this is a given.)
Inclined to stay on Snow for expediency's sake - WOTs are unhealthy for town, as is not voting the person you think scummiest, etc, see earlier. The flailing has me in a bit of self doubt and I would probably support a move to Tom or Bard.... but then again just last game I let this very person off the hook for flailing day 1, but I was wrong and he was actually scum.... nah, no more passes on "too crazy to be scum." Not in a two scumteam game like this one.
-
On Meeple vs Alex/Excal: my follow on to Meeple shouldn't be the greatest of surprises given that I did cover everyone between this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55141#msg55141) and this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55156#msg55156) (I think the only major immediate change was that Strago showed up and dropped a lot of the criticism I had on him). I guess the two factors are that my position on Meeple may not be seen as significant, and that I don't buy into Bard's case as I'm apparently expected to.
Meeple has talked a lot and said very little. Almost no opinion on anyone at all, and even at this point is clinging to me on the basis of a few scraps from the start, most of which can't even hope to apply (self-vote has been done to death in the thread, and I was the least of the 'offenders' on Delta, unless you're going to point to my more recent questioning of him). Ten pages for an almost gut theory and basically nothing else (bar mild Snow support)? It's a fairly simple case of high profile lurking for the most part, from what I see of it.
I don't really see the Alex case. No problem spotted with the placing of the Sylon vote; not being around for a while can be placed on far too many people; coming back and initially maintaining Sylon doesn't read bad for the timing given that this was during the short period that I wouldn't have called Sylon a lurker (it's not long after he came on and badly defended himself); finding and swapping to Snow reads as natural and it's hard to be quite so critical of it when he was the one to start and push the train quite so late on.
The rest of Bard's argument seems based on skewing the Sylon vote in a manner I can't see at all and a difference in opinion over the whole extension deelie. Even with my changed vote I still side with Alex on this one. I can continue to discuss this if desired, but it seems somewhat of a distraction to me.
So, uh, I kind of side with frustratingly long periods of absence (but same for others, and he's doing more with the time that he is here), and could at least be drawn into dialogue about his focus on Snow, but he still reads considerably better than Meeple to me. Any other particular points I should be considering against him?
Is Excal being tarred with the same brush as Alex? I guess I should look at that next, but I'm taking ages to write anything, so let's get this out now.
Ryogo ninja: I'm easily swayed by the way people act on the chopping block. I know this is bad for me and I know someday someone will exploit this, but in this position I really, really couldn't see why a theoretical scumSnow would act like he did. If the same thing happens in a later day I'll need to be harder hearted about it given that it's been seen to be successful, but I can't believe for an instant that he could have expected such a climb down to save him.
-
Hmm hmm.
I am still quite comfortable with lynching Snowfire. Sylon's flip does little to exonerate him in my eyes. Even under Snowfire's own logic earlier it's an optimal move for scum and town alike. The way he reacted to pressure over the vote was to spout out a chunk of WIFOMish non-reasoning, which seems to me as nothing more than a smokescreen. There was no reason to call Sylon townie before he died that I can see. :/
Xanth's post here - http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55141#msg55141 - rings bells, since it provides a big ol' list of townies. In a large game like this presenting opinions on everyone is even more useless than usual. I like how his post was templated before he started writing it, nice! Seems like he's decided to write on everyone before knowing what to say. Looks.. fillery. Possibly.. scummy.
Kilga's lightly pinging me because of the way he favours scattering many short, prodding posts around. It's easy to ask throwaway questions. It's a pain if they don't go anywhere.
I don't see much reason to lynch Excal or Alex at this juncture. It's classy how DT links to posts where they're supposedly misrepresenting Snowfire, and I go to them and think 'actually this IS what happened pretty much as I saw it, too.' Snow hasn't really expanded his case on Excal, ever. Originally it was... 'excal's bad for talking about serious mafia' and 'excal's me-tooing', the former utterly trivial and the latter requiring some explanation, which has never come.
-
I've got it coming and going, I see. From SirAlex: "too many walls of text even when under heavy attack," and from Carthrat "not enough!" Of which my sympathies are actually closer to SirAlex, really. Look, I don't want to spend the entire night responding to Mafia, I feel the case against Excal and SirAlex has already been stated well enough by myself and others. I suppose I could run to grab a bunch of quotes, but it's a Day1 case: Excal gives me a mild read of "inflame town with provocative posts, charge in and look heroically townie randomly."
Carthrat: Are you voting me because you think I'm suspicious and likely to be scum? Or because I'm a neutral lynch and why not? Yes, I've said that my actions could plausibly explained by a scummer trying to act towny (and apparently miserably failing!), but that goes for many actions that looks townie. Meaning that it bounces back to neutral at worst. Though obviously others have felt my actions weren't towny after all, so what do I know.
The main thing I felt I could be hit with was the Snow/Sylon scumteam theory, which has now panned out to nothing.
Sir Alex: Inclined to stay on Snow for expediency's sake
I don't expect I'll convince you on this one since I'm switching my vote to you, but for others... I certainly hope that "expediency" isn't the reason used to vote me. After I got extremely flamed for my "expedient" vote of Xanth last night.... lynch trains can still change, even towards the end. But only if you actually switch your vote.
Xanth: Fair enough comments on Meeple. If I'm still alive tomorrow, it will be interesting to see what Meeple has to say... I can very much see the "nervous to say anything due to the inherent uncertainty of a Day1 lynch," which is potentially scummy, but is also just potentially playstyle.
Anyway, it doesn't look likely to save me, but might as well do it now....
##UNVOTE: Excal
##VOTE: Sir Alex
-
See the rest of the paragraph you refer to. I'm about even on Bard/Tom/Snow.... Snow kinda looks worse than the others, though it's hard to really say precisely. Expedience is the main reason for staying on Snow out of that pack rather than try to start something on Bard or Tom at this point in time.
-
I actually can't find much of an offensive against Excal at all, just a brief thing from Tom about him and Alex picking on Snow (where I'm not sure why he opted for Excal over anyone else mentioned), and Snow commenting on a total of one paragraph, which (the paragraph) I see as pointed but not twisted in the way suggested.
Snow: as you're around and think the case has been made clear, can you either summarise it or point to posts that I've missed (can't deny the possibility at this point)?
Rat: they're just in sign up order, there's no 'big list of townies' (people are at best a neutral read of 'no [immediate] concerns' - Kilga was the only one I was close to saying had any sort of townie read - and I was actually worried that it would read like the opposite if anything, given how many people I felt I had at least vaguely notable concerns with for day one), the point was to stimulate whatever fresh paths there may be rather than just trod down the same few roads again, and go figure I wasn't completely sure how I was about to review any given player before I actually, you know, reviewed their posts. I did also expect the time to be considerably quieter and get the whole thing out roughly together rather than so annoyingly spread out, if that's making a difference for you.
Right, it's 2:20am here. Not sure how much more time I can really stay here for, especially given how my conscious is starting to drift and it's taking me forever and a day to get any given point written down.
-
No, I think you're scum because you were defending Sylon on flimsy reasoning to start. What his alignment actually was is immaterial- if he's scum, you defend a scumbuddy, if he's town, you 'buy cred'. The later justifications you used to reinforce your reasoning were, as I said, very WIFOMY and distraction-inducing, talking about optimum plays and why an action that can go either way somehow means you're townie.
Your later case on Excal doesn't have any real punch to it. In fact it's quite vauge. I can't find anyone worse-looking than you. So. Yeah.
-
VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(6): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom, Strago
Carthrat(0): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(1): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(1): Bardiche, Xanth, Xanth
QuietRain (0): Ryogo
Ryogo (1): SnowFire, Nietz
Excal (1): SnowFire, EvilTom
SirAlex (3): Bardiche, Ryogo, SnowFire
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline in about 4 and 1/2 hours.
-
Sir Alex: Yeah, sorry about that. Since I complained about you quoting me out of context before, that was slightly unfair, I'll grant (because I knew how you meant it).
Xanth: Looks like you can go to bed, I don't think a Meeple train will be starting and it looks doubtful I'll be saved at this point.
Carthrat: But... that... doesn't make any sense. Even a little. I'm not sure where to start. Memo to self: Never admit that scum might want to pretend to be town ever again, because this apparently equals an admission that your argument is all some kind of act? Huh?
Obviously there's some kind of great disconnect of logic going on here. Let's take it as a given that I genuinely think my logic is fine, and you think my logic sucked. Right?
* From my perspective, my case is that of a loyal townie doing his duty to try and stop a bad lynch train.
* From your perspective, my case is that of either a stupid townie or a stupid scummer trying to appear town using what he thinks is a town argument.
I suppose it's better to lynch stupid townies than useful townies, but meh. This is why I'm trying to at least argue my status back to neutral.
As for WIFOM nonsense... it's Day 1. I don't feel my logic was totally out of line, but we have little to work with, and I was being continually pressed on the point. Apparently my attempts to justify myself only made my idea look worse from being too complicated. Sigh.
Both Xanth and Carthrat, re the Excal case: I just went diving into the archives, and possibly you're right- I thought I or EvilTom wrote out a more detailed case against Excal somewhere, but maybe it got lost in the shuffle. It's certainly been a chaotic enough day. So I'll have to leave it at my vague impressions and OMGUS that I brought up before for suspected bad logic.
Then again, I will do a trademark Pokemon Mafia SnowFire undercut myself: since so many people apparently bought the idea that my logic was irretrievably flawed, obviously something DID go wrong, whether in the logic itself or the presentation thereof. Which to some degree lets Excal and SirAlex off the hook more, since it's obvious townies agree with this, and it's not a scumtell of "you're blatantly making stuff up."
Sigh.
-
This paid some dividends for Alex last night, and I'm planning on being up until deadline again tonight, so I can switch back if necessary.
##Unvote: Snowfire
##Vote: Bardiche
Bard never answered my question here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55104#msg55104) (which is related to the first point I address to Bard here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55035#msg55035), which itself references Bard's chain of actions here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54931#msg54931) and here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54982#msg54982)). He also went after Xanth for not providing reasoning when making the NotMe vs. Me vote, of which Excal describes the absurdity here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55204#msg55204). These sorts of things make Bard look like he's picking at whatever he can get his hands on rather than actually trying to hunt.
I also dislike his Alex case, mostly because of what Alex has already discussed but also partly because of what I believe to be a bit of misrep in his third bullet point here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55150#msg55150) regarding Alex - specifically in the "Alex himself acknowledged that it is a bad train (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55001#msg55001)" line which is not quite what Alex said when describing the Sylon train. He also goes on to represent Alex's charge against Sylon as pure inactivity which cannot be reasonably defensed, but Sylon had posted at that point and not only didn't contribute but directly stated that he wasn't prepared to contribute, and such controlled lurking is certainly worth a vote or two more than someone that simply hasn't shown up at all.
More to come (mostly on new developments), but I wanted to get this out for people to look at with what little time we have left.
-
Cut into the middle of my thinking: In rererereading Bard discussing why Xanth should have supplied reasoning with his NotMe over Me switch to SnowFire (in order to convince others to go to Snow with him), I realized that Bard is asking Xanth to continue the case he abandoned way back on Early Day 1™, which was...an Early Day 1™ case and not really meaningful in Day 1 crunchtime.
He also expected Xanth to provide this case rejuvenation while under pressure of deadline and votes, though Excal might've pointed this out already.
Back to reading.
-
Sure. I can answer this really quickly before I start my next post. What I meant by that was that Carthrat jumped on the train without giving a reason, other than "Sure, why not." I at least threw my own reasoning down on the table. I felt him suspicious because he had been lurking, and had been confirmed to have been on the forums frequently without defending himself from the votes put down on them. Even when the votes started to get serious. I was just saying Cat hadn't thrown any reasons down, and had ONLY said "all aboard the Sylon train woo woo!" at the time.
In fairness to Rat, it was the end of Page 1 (not Day 1, Page 1) when he made that vote. You didn't press Rat very hard when you first brought it up, though, so I'm content to accept this explanation.
However, as Nietz pointed out, your Alex-voting posts is a whole bunch of "me too!"s and other stuff more or less unrelated to the game, which is displeasing.
Kilgamayan: "Thou shalt not suffer scum to live" an' all that.
You're awfully certain I'm scum.
Cool misinterp, bro.
I was using that line to refer to Nietz's suggestion that, should you be scum, we should leave you be and let whatever scum faction you're not a part of take you out at night, and pointing out generally why that's a bad idea. In this case specifically, one only needs to realize that Nietz's suggestion involves town counting on scum to do their work for them, which can only end in disaster (and raises my hackles a bit with regards to Nietz). Among other reasons to trust scum to do our work for us, we have no guarantee either scum faction's best course of action is to get rid of the other scum faction ASAP.
Kilga's lightly pinging me because of the way he favours scattering many short, prodding posts around. It's easy to ask throwaway questions. It's a pain if they don't go anywhere.
I've been doing this because I've felt like I had solid votes down on people. It's more or less a sense of "this is my main case, now let me see what else is out there" in an attempt to avoid tunnel-vision. Most have not done a whole lot (like Ryogo's and Alex's*), but a couple got favorable reactions (Bard and Snow).
*I asked Alex what I did because I saw his Snow vote as a potential late-day focus diversion, which ScumSopko used (well, tried to) against Tom in AnonyRandom here and ScumMe used against ras in PC-98 at MotK. I realized after the fact that it wasn't Alex's case but Snowfire's meltdown in response that made me (and probably a few others) switch, so I ultimately didn't hold it against him.
-
Gate on QR's comp checking in.
Day closes in roughly two hours. As things stand, Snowfire is still in the lead with 5 votes.
-
Sory I disappeared earlier, the lecture ended and I had to leave. After that I didn't get net access until now.
Yeah, Alex and Excal were in the same boat for me, I went with Excal because he'd looked bad to me from the start (Alex only recently). But It's 6/3/1 and I shall now make it 6/4:
##Unvote,
People haven't taken the hint from my unvote-snow post. I shall now be blatant.
I believe very strongly that Snow is telling the truth, and my reasons are made of meta and role.
As such, I have unvoted him and am voting Alex, one of the two people that has doggedly pursued Snow since the beginning.
Alex's posts lack reasoning or evidence, or really any train of thought. They're full of grand sweeping statements designed to overcome all defenses.
Snow is still all over the place. I'll admit outright I'm not reading those walls. Not on day 1. There just isn't enough going on. (Yes, that comes with the caveat that all day 1 cases are bad, this is a given.)
So you're not going to read his arguments, just kill him for defending himself?
Inclined to stay on Snow for expediency's sake - WOTs are unhealthy for town, as is not voting the person you think scummiest, etc, see earlier. The flailing has me in a bit of self doubt and I would probably support a move to Tom or Bard.... but then again just last game I let this very person off the hook for flailing day 1, but I was wrong and he was actually scum.... nah, no more passes on "too crazy to be scum." Not in a two scumteam game like this one.
Expediency's sake? In other words - you don't think he's scum, but you want to lynch him because he's been "WOT-ing" (in other words, contributing a lot)? Isn't that more than a little hyppocritical - "as is not voting the person you think scummiest"?
##Vote Alex
Tom is kinda weird and I'm not so happy about his methods. He's just come in, taken easily defensible positions without contributing much and left.
Uh yeah, I said the lecture was ending. Nothing I could do there.
I'm about even on Bard/Tom/Snow.... Snow kinda looks worse than the others, though it's hard to really say precisely. Expedience is the main reason for staying on Snow out of that pack rather than try to start something on Bard or Tom at this point in time.
Wow, the three people who attack you are suddenly all scum candidates. If that's not an OMGUS...
-
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh so is that an "I know Snow is town 100%" softclaim there or not?
Case stuff... you want reasoning?
- Did not vote for the player he found scummiest
- Pressed false dichotomy saying Xanth/Sylon were the only viable cases
- Walls of text on day 1, which are not contribution and in fact antitown
All three of these are very solid basis for a lynch, especially day 1 when there's nothing better going around. I've been saying these things all the time.
As for expediency, go back and read the last page of posts, where even Snow himself manages to understand what I meant there and agree with it. I find it really hard to take this seriously, and it's stuff like this that puts Tom in my suspicious camp himself.
-
Alright, I'm back from work, but feel like shit. So, I'm not going to be posting much tonight.
That said, Tom. I do have an issue with your latest post. See, I can see why Snowfire seems to feel that having the gall to vote for him is inherantly scummy. It's a bad habit to get into, but he has confirmation. But from you, it's somewhat baffling. Especially since your little veiled commentary aside, you haven't been consistant.
Yesterday, you were perfectly happy to vote Snow simply to end the day faster, and speed up the inevitable. But now you're claiming you have role information that he's not scum? Forgive me for being somewhat suspicious of this given that there was no night.
-
Actually there was a night 0. I'd like to find out what Tom meant by that, as much as he can say? (Although the "and meta" already has me questioning it)
I'm also a little confused as to why this is coming up now, an hour or so before the real deadline, and not yesterday?
-
##Unvote: Bardiche
##Vote: SnowFire
No one seems at all interested in my Bardiche case (not even the guy that said he would support a move to Bard!) and I do not believe Alex deserves to be lynched, so back my vote goes, for reasons cited about 24 hours ago.
-
Because yesterday his vote was on Snowfire putting him at L-1 before Xanth and Strago did their little shuffle. That's why I'm finding the timing suspicious, since if he had info from Night 0, then why would he put Snow at L-1?
-
Ho HO?
So he did.
Nice catch, carry on, I'll be voting Tom tomorrow I think.
-
Yeah that's quite interesting.
As long as I'm sitting here doing nothing but waiting I would really rather enjoy hearing Tom's explanation for this.
-
Kilga's lightly pinging me because of the way he favours scattering many short, prodding posts around. It's easy to ask throwaway questions. It's a pain if they don't go anywhere.
Revisiting this out of boredom to point out that the name of the game is "PokeMafia".
-
What's with all the wrong assumptions and blatant rolefish :\
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh so is that an "I know Snow is town 100%" softclaim there or not?
No it is not. I find it likely he is telling the truth about his role, based on my metagame reasoning.
Ho HO?
So he did.
Nice catch, carry on, I'll be voting Tom tomorrow I think.
I find it fascinating that Alex can quite literally go "Ho ho! Tom is scum, lynch him tomorrow!"
Alex is blatantly leaping around seeing what will stick.
-
And what say you to what Excal pointed out?
-
Tom, we ask because you're asking us to take you at face value. This is an excellent thing to do, if we had any reason whatsoever to believe you are town as opposed to lying Scum. Given that my best possible read of your actions sets you squarely at neutral, I have to look at the context. And that context has you wanting to lynch Snow to end the day shortly after the extension, and now claiming you have role information that you feel says Snow is town for Meta reasons.
The evidence about how trustworthy you yourself are is suggesting taking you at face value is a bad idea.
-
Blatant misrepresentation. I never wanted to lynch snow.
If everyone is set on SF, I'm happy to move my vote onto him to speed up the inevitable. Shouldn't he claim then?
This was when Snow was at -2, Alex & co were complaining about the extension and nobody was willing to move away from the Snowtrain.
I never wanted to lynch snow.
Now, your "GOTCHA!" does not apply at all even if I did want to lynch him, because my metagame reasoning is based on his roleclaim combined with Sylon's flip.
This kind of reactionary aggression using misrepresentation to paint me in the worst light is all the more reason for me to believe Alex/Excal scum.
Anyway I must now leave, won't be back till after deadline. I hope Snow is not lynched.
-
...because my metagame reasoning is based on his roleclaim combined with Sylon's flip.
(which came after my vote)
-
Why did you vote Snow to L-1 if you did not want to lynch him?
-
Okay, I see a (ridiculous) explanation.
Why did you willingly give in to expediting the process of a lynch you disagreed with? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
-
Tom, you keep on using the word misrepresentation. I disagree entirely. The first time you used it, I simply chose to highlight the effect of the argument that was being made. Was it what Snowfire meant? Maybe, maybe not. Was it what he was advocating? Yes.
Same here. You are asking us to believe that you never wanted to lynch Snowfire when you put him at -1 to Hammer, when you didn't even make more than a token effort at saving him. Nor did you apparently breadcrumb whatever it is that you feel is so vital now so that you can point back and use that as something to bolster your claim.
All you do is say that you have a reason to believe Snowfire is town, that it is based off of your role, but not definatively proven by it, and that you won't tell us anything more about it so we can't judge the evidence for ourselves.
And then when we bring up reasons not to trust you, and ask you to provide reasons why you might be right, you call this behaviour scummy?
Forgive me for not wanting to blindly trust this.
-
*DEADLINE*
The morning started slowly, with the Pokemon feeling each other out and generally not making waves. As the day wore on, though, sides began to form. For most of the last portion of the day as dusk began to grow closer, two sides became clear front runners. Many Pokemon thought that the Nosepass named Sylon’s silence was a sure indication of his secretive Team Magma leanings. Others argued that the Castform called Xanth’s words clearly showed him to be the hidden Magma Pokemon. It wasn’t until a loud voice rang out in support of staying up extra hours in search of the Magma pokemon that the other arguments stopped. And the pokemon turned as one and began to question the loud voice. The Linoon named SnowFire waged its tail in annoyance and tried again and again to convince his fellows of the need for more time, though they seemed unfazed by his reasoning. And suspicious as well. Linoons were hasty creatures. They were swift and prone to quick thought and action. Wanting to slow down and take his time? Surely it meant he was hiding something, like being part of … TEAM MAGMA! As one, they converged on him only to see him pass out and leave no incriminating items in his belongings. They slowly realized they’d been wrong. The group retreated to their sleeping spaces and vowed to try again tomorrow.
SnowFire (Linoon) has been mass KO’d. (Town aligned, One shot Tracker)
--------------------------------------
Night phase. Please send in your night actions. If you have the ability to do things at night but choose not to do them, make sure I have a PM to that effect. Nights last a maximum of 24 hours, so the sooner I get all actions (or lack thereof) in, the faster the new day will start.
---------------------------------------
FINAL VOTECOUNT
Yoshiken(0): Bardiche
Snowfire(6): Xanth, Snowfire, SirAlex, Excal, Carthrat, Xanth, Deltaflyer, EvilTom, Strago, Kilgamayan, Kilgamayan
Carthrat(0): OblivionKnight
OblivionKnight(0): Excal, Carthrat
Kilgamayan(0): Nietz
Sylon(0): SirAlex, EvilTom, Excal, Carthrat, Ryogo, Nietz
Deltaflyer2k8(1): Sylon, Snowfire, Yoshiken
Xanth(1): Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Strago, SnowFire, EvilTom
Meeplelard(1): Bardiche, Xanth, Xanth
QuietRain (0): Ryogo
Ryogo (1): SnowFire, Nietz
Excal (0): SnowFire, EvilTom
SirAlex (4): Bardiche, Ryogo, SnowFire, EvilTom
Bardiche (0): Kilgamayan
(Note from Gate: beg pardon if the final count is off somehow. I hate typing on laptops and am prone to mistakes on them. Jenna will fix any mistakes I've made when she gets to work tomorrow, I'm sure.)
-
The morning dawns quietly. The bird Pokemon native to this island sing a soft and melancholy tune as the sun rises. The Pokemon who awaken find themselves not one person short as they had feared, but THREE. The Illumise, who had so longed to explore the island’s forests, seems to have been incapable of waiting to untangle the mystery first. No trace of the small Illumise could be found, although many thought they could catch glimpses of him through the trees during the day.
Two other souls were not so lucky. One was a strange Pokemon, a Baltoy who had stayed to himself mostly and only occasionally involved himself in the conversation. His unconscious form was found in his bed. No incriminating things were found there to show he was a member of Team Magma, but it looked like it had been his home for a VERY, VERY long time. The Pokemon were sure he had not come to the island with the Pokemon trainers to protect the temple. He looked to be one of the island inhabitants instead.
The last Pokemon to be found was the sleepy-eyed Slakoth. When he didn’t show up, many just thought he was being lazy as his kind were wont to do. But he was eventually found unconscious near his sleeping pad, stretched out as if trying to flee something. Among his things, the Pokemon found a baseball cap belonging to one of the deceased trainers. They knew the Team Magma Pokemon had struck him down during the night.
The remaining Pokemon watched each other warily.
Yoshiken (Illumise) has been self KO’d by Modkill per request. (Town aligned, One Shot Doc)
Carthrat (Baltoy) has been stealthily KO’d. (Third party survivor, Omni Insane Bus Driver)
EvilTom (Slakoth) has been stealthily KO’d. (Town Aligned, One Shot Watcher)
Day Two starts now. With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Please remember that any Modkills during the day phase end the day.
Also, please note that when the setup underwent it’s last change, the interest thread was not updated (I blame Gate for this one, the changes were his). I have updated that thread. A few roles were put in that were not on the list originally.
-
Tom being Tom, then.
Train thoughts:
- I still do not believe Alex is scum, especially since Sylon and SnowFire have both flipped town (what benefit did ScumAlex get from making those waves?). I suppose an Alex/Xanth team is possible, but it's not my #1 suspicion.
- I didn't really have a problem with Excal throughout the day yesterday and didn't even recall seeing a case against him despite a few people referring to it. Can someone summarize it for me?
- Delta's vote post is some me-too-ism combined with taking Snow's numbers post out of context (near as I can tell the numbers Snow used were mere examples based on the sentiments he felt he had expressed). He asks for explanations Snow had already provided (explanations I did not agree with but explanations nonetheless). This looks like a potential push-ahead vote. Completely disappears after this. Not pleased.
- Strago's voting reasons seem reasonably thought-out. Not a fan of "talk lots say little" posts (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55169#msg55169) though.
##Vote: Deltaflyer
I think the strikes against him are enough to push him ahead of Bard (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55272#msg55272) for me for now. I'd definitely like to hear from both though.
-
Okay, so those deaths don't change my mind on:
##Vote: Meeple
For the exact same reasons as before, which still hasn't caught much interest. In no fewer than 11* posts and a fair wad of text in day one, the net value reads to me as 'minor [already since covered] reasons on Xanth, mild support for Snow, nothing on anyone else'. You know, I'm probably being slightly unfair and have quite possibly missed a relevant opinion somewhere in there, but the point is that the guy's talked a lot and said the least. I like in particular how his view on Alex does cartwheels in the space of one post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55235#msg55235) without actually landing anywhere, and his back-tracking on Snow:
I don't see any significantly better targets, and as I said, I was willing to hammer if only to end the day if it came to that.
from:
Anyway, Snowfire's looking worse than what I initially thought for reasons people have been pointing out, though I can't say I feel confident about this...but its a day 1 lynch, confidence beyond some really big scum slip is going to be shakey. So while I'm not moving my vote *NOW*, I'm declaring my intent to hammer him when I come back from school, if the day's still on.
Which really isn't the same thing, beating about the bush aside.
(*Yeah, I know there are at least several of us with more than that, and even possibly few with fewer, but the point is that he's far from the low word count lurking class)
Bard has looked increasingly worse with each time I read things over again during the night phase. His pressure on me really was overly demanding, which couples with the slow teasing rather than confrontation here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54982#msg54982) that didn't produce a vote on me and the matter that at least much of what he pointed against me (previous link again, and here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55152#msg55152)) was already clear to me and at least Kilga makes it read far more to me like just trying to get something to stick than genuine hunting. Same feeling from his case on Alex.
Kilga: I was going to try and separate the lurkers next, and yeah, I already had Delta ear-marked (here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55141#msg55141)) before his additional disappearance, so I agree that he's almost certainly the worst of the bunch. The thing about the Excal case is that there doesn't really seem to be one (even Snow failed to find it on searching here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55266#msg55266)), and now the two people pushing it - Snow and Tom - are both dead (not that I'm implying anything by that), so I'm not sure if it'll come up at all.
Kilga himself still reads as the strongest pro-town player. I have nothing much to say on Excal either.
I can't say my view on Alex has changed. The silence through much of the period between the 'deadline' and the deadline is a bit of a shame, but I can't see it as any worse than neutral given his position on both Snow and the extension.
Strago still seems fine to me after he broke the low content neutrality from early on, where he seemed a lot more guarded than is healthy. I don't blame him for his stance on Snow.
Which leaves Ryogo, OK and Nietz, who have all been non-present or under-the-radar in their own ways. OK doesn't really draw me so long as he now keeps it up, but Nietz in particular has few present thoughts, having been hard on Sylon for most of the day. Ryogo is... somewhere between the two, but with an additional hop-on vote for Alex and fluffy things like "Other people seem fairly townie to me right now (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55249#msg55249)" that make him read the worst of the three (but I don't think worse than Delta). Would very much like to here from all of them to untangle them further.
-
Wall of text incoming. Kilga stuff first.
Bard never answered my question here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55104#msg55104) (which is related to the first point I address to Bard here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55035#msg55035), which itself references Bard's chain of actions here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54931#msg54931) and here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54982#msg54982)). He also went after Xanth for not providing reasoning when making the NotMe vs. Me vote, of which Excal describes the absurdity here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55204#msg55204). These sorts of things make Bard look like he's picking at whatever he can get his hands on rather than actually trying to hunt.
I didn't respond to your cursing about the extension? Jokes aside, I'll assume your linking is broken and just look at relevant nearby posts.
Why is inattention to the rules is the same sort of question as, 'Why is switching your vote around scummy?'. It is based on personal beliefs. Note that I continued on in the same breath about his wording that lynching Sylon for the sake of a lynch was not a good idea, but later relented it as I took his explanation as acceptable. I believe in Mafia it is common place to place votes on people you have suspicion on, or definitely want an answer from.
Why is it that you are so intent on defending Alex against me? Given that I have not pursued the Meeple case and never specified that my vote was a call for a lynch, I fail to see the relevance in bringing up the exchange with Meeple.
I also dislike his Alex case, mostly because of what Alex has already discussed
So do you agree mostly with what Alex has said, and you have no thoughts of your own regarding this? Or am I misreading that?
but also partly because of what I believe to be a bit of misrep in his third bullet point here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55150#msg55150) regarding Alex - specifically in the "Alex himself acknowledged that it is a bad train (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55001#msg55001)" line which is not quite what Alex said when describing the Sylon train.
Alex said it was as bad a train as any Day 1 train -- this is acknowledgement that the train isn't that good. His continuous stressing of the Day1ness of his case does not sit well with me. That he later goes on to say "it's just as good as any Day 1 train" is a gross misconception, since there have been Day 1 trains with a much more solid basis and a much better result.
He also goes on to represent Alex's charge against Sylon as pure inactivity which cannot be reasonably defensed, but Sylon had posted at that point and not only didn't contribute but directly stated that he wasn't prepared to contribute, and such controlled lurking is certainly worth a vote or two more than someone that simply hasn't shown up at all.
Where in this post does Sylon directly state that he was not prepared to contribute? (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54963#msg54963)
------
Xanth's concern against me is mostly my push against him which reeks of OMGUS, so I won't bother with that.
However, you stress multiple times now that I don't buy into Bard's case as I'm apparently expected to.
, outlining some reasons in this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55254#msg55254). I already outlined here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55150#msg55150) why the Day 1 train was bound to lead to failure as all such trains do, since it immediately forces someone in a defensive and it is hard to reasonably defend against whatever happened. At the time the Sylon train grew Sylon could only defend himself against the accusation of not having posted yet and being a random target, which no reasonable defense could possibly be mounted against.
--------
##VOTE: Sir Alex
In conjunction with my points raised earlier, as well as his attempts at pushing his lynchtarget through despite a majority requesting a deadline, false advertising of the extension as being useless, I think this is pretty much ideal play for day 1
which seems to be that he thinks tunnel-visioning on Sylon, then voting Snowfire and doing nothing but focusing on Snowfire (and discrediting the extensions) is "ideal day 1 play".
I think that is rubbish play, absolutely useless. He's started the train, and then spent the rest of his posts quibbling about the votecount and extensions, and three hours before deadline argues why we should vote Snowfire. Right, because his initial vote on Snowfire ought've meant we'd all have to jump in.
I also don't like how he states that it's scummier than anyone else to date by far.
, but this might just be picking at rhetoric. I don't think that stating it as a fact is fair at that point because others obviously disagreed. (me among them) Repeated here:
especially day 1 when there's nothing better going around
when there were better things going around.
Finally, his only other two cases are Tom and Me--and apparently me for my case on him? It isn't clear to me and if Alex could explain that, great!
I don't see why extending is a scum move, nor do I accept that my actions were a 'very easy scum stance to take', given that I wasn't just pretending to be some saint for not voting Snowfire and already said Snowfire was my third preferable target and I wouldn't be opposed to a hammer on him.
-
Mmmmmmmmm. Night's changed some of my views substantially, actually, though I'm not sure I want to say what just yet. (Aside from Tom having been town, obviously.)
Bard's case on me is... well, I'll let it mostly speak for itself, since responding to Bard directly doesn't seem like it has a possibility of being fruitful. Characterizing my position on the Sylon train as "tunnel vision," attacking me for starting on a weak case and then moving to one I felt stronger and sticking with it, and calling my play rubbish and useless... aside from raising an eyebrow at the borderline incivility there, uh... yeah. Folks other than Bard (and Bard if he calms down), let me know if there's anything I can help you with here. The only thing I can actually read as a coherent accusation out of it is that I was anti-extension. Which... is not scummy, neither position on the deadline ever was or ever has been or will be.
Bard, seriously. The vehement wall of texting there is not helping anything. I'm reconsidering things now and doing a lot of rereads in the wake of the flips, and for this moment I'm a bit less convinced that your play is scummy - but what is 100% guaranteed is that it is not an attitude that is helpful to town.
With 11 alive, we're at 7-2-2 (assuming two teams of two scum, which I'm almost certain of now that we've seen a third party flip). Barring a ton of scum crosskills or other shenanigans, we may already be in pseudo-LYLO in terms of having a chance to win. It may just be psychological, but this is inclining my scumdar towards some of the people who have been sitting back watching the fur fly, so to speak. I would REALLY like to hear more from Delta, Meeple, Ryogo, OK, Nietz, and Strago, in roughly that order. Excal and Kilga are the only folks I don't really have a problem with at the moment. Xanth... Xanth is special and I need to think about him some more.
Don't have a solid vote at the moment - if I had to drop one it'd be on Bard, but past experience (recalling one game with Otter in particular) is getting me leery of going into slapfights with someone.
-
I really don't get what Xanth's case on me is. Cause I haven't been saying as much as I could in the amount of text I give? I'm really not sure why that looks so scummy, especially on Day 1, where the best you can go on is gut feeling and whatever feels scummiest is really a long shot either way, barring some obvious points which most people are good at avoiding.
That said...
There is something I wanna bring up:
I have a one shot vig, which I'm willing to use 100% on the Town's Behalf. True, by mentioning this, it means I'm a prime target for scum role blockers, if there are any, but I figure I should mention it as it means for one day/night we have 2 potential Lynches.
I didn't use it last night cause its Day 1 and I didn't feel comfortable about sniping at anyone since I didn't really have any good leads based on Sylon or Snowfire flips; naturally, 3 more flips occurred, so that's something to work with, and I need to go back and look over posts regarding them.
Analysis coming up in a bit. I figured I might as well toss something out on the table, as at least a potential tool for Town to take advantage of.
-
Alright, going over posts again...much as I think this might seem "OMGUS!"...
##Vote: Xanth
My reasons?
First off, that early game play. He slams Snowfire for something during a joke phase. Alex at least went "Weird and unhelpful" or whatever his wording was. He just listed it among his case on snowfire, which involved many points. Believe he was also against that useless Wall of Text Snowfire had,which was at the very end of the Jokephase.
He later joins the Snowfire train...without giving much reason, I felt. Just kind of says a few passing remarks, and that's it. This part is out of order, but it ties in with the above.
There's the Delta stuff next, calling him "Uncivil" or whatever when Delta was being a bit facetious and even apologized; feels like painting a misleading Red X on someone.
Then he votes on me, in a way that seems like a smokescreened "OMGUS!" Combined with flimsly defending his reasons for going after Snow purely cause of a self joke-vote during the joke phase.
Then something else stood out to me. He makes a big post outlying EVERYONE...but leaves a few people blank. One such person is Snowfire, who he's voting. By which I mean "Blank" I don't mean "Name left off the list" I mean something like:
Sir Alex: blah blah blah blah town read
Evil Tom: Blah blah blah blah neutral read
Snowfire:
Kilgamayan: Blah blah blah blah whatever
Why would he compile a huge list like that and leave blank names? On one hand, I suppose he may have done this to show which characters he hasn't commented on, but someone else he did something like:
Name:
.
.
.
.
I'm really not sure I'm understanding this;; it feels like sloppy play from someone who isn't checking their own work.
And he keeps attacking me for not bringing up content, which I feel I have been doing. So I don't have strong feelings on anyone; you shouldn't have particularly strong vibes on Day 1, due to its nature. I felt unsure about anyone; you'll notice how wishy washy I was about Snowfire. He had reached a point where I was willing to hammer him just to end the day, but I was never in a position to do so (when he was near hammering, I wasn't around, I believe, and when I was, a few people removed votes.)
For now, my vote is where it was on Day 1, on Xanth. Yeah, he voted me, but I feel I have enough reasons to keep this vibe, where as I'm still not quite sure what Xanth's case on me is.
-
NhohOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO why would you claim vig now why why why why why augh oh well
... anyhow
I think that claim's extremely believable, alleviates a lot of the gut concerns I had about Meeple, and I like his case as well. A number of things about Xanth do not sit well with me, from his response to being one of the day 1 trains to his selection of Meeple as a case now. His playstyle feels very methodical and base-covering without... really being contributive, I think in this setup sticking one's neck way out is a much more townie thing to do. (Yes, even in the way Bard's done it...)
Some of the things Meeple cites I don't agree with, like the blank list and going to Snowfire, but the Delta/Xanth interaction is something that has fermented in my brain. I'll go with it.
##Vote: Xanth
-
I didn't respond to your cursing about the extension? Jokes aside, I'll assume your linking is broken and just look at relevant nearby posts.
oop-c .-.
Why is inattention to the rules is the same sort of question as, 'Why is switching your vote around scummy?'. It is based on personal beliefs. Note that I continued on in the same breath about his wording that lynching Sylon for the sake of a lynch was not a good idea, but later relented it as I took his explanation as acceptable. I believe in Mafia it is common place to place votes on people you have suspicion on, or definitely want an answer from.
Let me present this a different way, then.
You are more likely to see scum switch their vote around than town because scum have to invent reasons to vote for people they know the alignment of, and so their cases have higher chance of getting shot down, forcing them to move elsewhere. Why are you more likely to see scum be inattentive to the rules than town?
Why is it that you are so intent on defending Alex against me? Given that I have not pursued the Meeple case and never specified that my vote was a call for a lynch, I fail to see the relevance in bringing up the exchange with Meeple.
You're trying to relate two things that shouldn't be here. The stuff I said about your Alex case were their own separate idea unrelated to your demonstrating faulty scumhunting in your Meeple case.
So do you agree mostly with what Alex has said, and you have no thoughts of your own regarding this? Or am I misreading that?
Given I did indeed provide my own thoughts on your case (which you snipped out and placed below), I can only guess that this is misrep bordering on needless antagonization. You can stop doing this; if the combined forces of UncertainKitten and pesco47 couldn't piss me off you have no chance.
Alex said it was as bad a train as any Day 1 train -- this is acknowledgement that the train isn't that good. His continuous stressing of the Day1ness of his case does not sit well with me. That he later goes on to say "it's just as good as any Day 1 train" is a gross misconception, since there have been Day 1 trains with a much more solid basis and a much better result.
Oh, okay, you're just picking out what of other people's posts is convenient for you and interpreting/disregarding as you see fit. Gotcha.
Where in this post does Sylon directly state that he was not prepared to contribute? (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg54963#msg54963)
I'll hold my vote for now, until I hear from Meeple with regards to my above question.
-
I didn't like the case on SirAlex before, and I still don't see much in it. I think his reasons for going after Sylon were perfectly valid (and in fact similar to mine). The only thing about him that I didn't like was his attacks on EvilTom, who for me was looking almost certainly town by the end of the Day.
Similarly, I don't really see the case on Excal.
My stance on Ryogo is unchanged. In fact, it's worse now since I noticed he hasn't even bothered to address it when he saw no one else was particularly interested in it.
On that note, I also noticed that Delta pretty much disappeared in the middle of the Day, leaving just an easy vote on SnowFire.
Not sure what to make of Xanth yet, I'll have to read further.
Ninjamayan:
You are more likely to see scum switch their vote around than town because scum have to invent reasons to vote for people they know the alignment of, and so their cases have higher chance of getting shot down, forcing them to move elsewhere. Why are you more likely to see scum be inattentive to the rules than town?
Dammit Kilga, you are still playing the wrong game! Scum doesn't have to make up cases here, they can do scumhunting as honestly as town.
You can stop doing this; if the combined forces of UncertainKitten and pesco47 couldn't piss me off you have no chance.
I always had the impression that they could.
-
VOTECOUNT
Deltaflyer (1): Kilgamayan
Meepleard (1): Xanth
SirAlex (1): Bardiche
Xanth (2): Meepleard, SirAlex
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
-
Dammit Kilga, you are still playing the wrong game! Scum doesn't have to make up cases here, they can do scumhunting as honestly as town.
Blame Bard for bringing up a faulty situation, then.
Even given that, I fail to see what this has to do with the point I was trying to make. Maybe you can answer for Bard. Why are scum more likely to be inattentive to the rules than town?
-
I'm around but not really around until some point in the evening, probably late. Rather frustrating start to the day, most of all Meeple's case on me being based almost entirely out of very simple misunderstandings (Alex supporting it what?), some of which has been covered before now, combined with the fact that it looks very likely that I was wrong about him myself.
Full response when I do get the time, but ##Unvote: Meeplelard comes now.
-
Even given that, I fail to see what this has to do with the point I was trying to make. Maybe you can answer for Bard. Why are scum more likely to be inattentive to the rules than town?
It wasn't about that point in particular, just a general opinion in about gameplay.
But if you ask me attentiveness to rules is basically a null tell.
On my previous note, while I scum can make honest scumhunt efforts, I do believe they wouldn't be too inclined to put out strong cases, to avoid getting NK attention. Incidentally that makes more inclined to think of both you and Bard as town.
About Xanth, I noticed he did a lot of things I don't like, like player listing and throwing what felt like easy votes on Snow and Meeple on Day 1. I'd say he's suspicious, though not terribly so.
I could say I'm mostly suspicious of Ryogo, Delta and possibly Xanth right now. I'll still keep my case on Ryogo since he gave no reason to let it go.
##Vote: Ryogo
-
EBWOP: "while I think scum can make(...)"
-
Don't feel like responding to the rest presently. I'll do that when I feel more into it, but...
I can only guess that this is misrep bordering on needless antagonization. You can stop doing this; if the combined forces of UncertainKitten and pesco47 couldn't piss me off you have no chance.
I wasn't even intending on antagonizing or whatever. I just wanted to know if you agreed with everything Alex said about why he wasn't scum or if you had any thoughts that were different from Alex's.
Whatever. I don't feel like going too in-depth about this at the current time, I'll revisit that later if it's still unclear.
SirAlex: ... Right, okay. Withholding response for now, be back with that later.
-
VOTECOUNT
Deltaflyer (1): Kilgamayan
Meepleard (0): Xanth
SirAlex (1): Bardiche
Xanth (2): Meepleard, SirAlex
Ryogo (1): Nietz
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
-
It's been 48 hours since Ryogo signed on. He is in danger of Modkill. If I don't see a post by noon my time tomorrow I am going to modkill him. Noon my time is in 16 hours. Only on Day 1 do Modkills not end the day. I am hopeful that you guys can get a lynch before then, though, and I can just Modkill kill during the night if necessary. Please note this is 12 hours earlier than the day was scheduled to end.
It's been several hours of silence, though, so perhaps an end to the day would help focus thoughts?
-
That puts a distinct crimp on things. The silence today is pretty deafening. I'd like to hear people's thoughts, particularly on Xanth, and particularly ANYTHING out of Strago/OK/Delta. Who's here tonight?
-
I wasn't even intending on antagonizing or whatever. I just wanted to know if you agreed with everything Alex said about why he wasn't scum or if you had any thoughts that were different from Alex's.
Oh, I see what you're getting at.
Given how he described himself, I guess I would have to say no to this, because I think the way he approached Day 1 was a pretty townie approach. While I personally disagreed with lynching Sylon (for what saying that is worth, given I don't think I ever actually commented on it after Sylon did), I saw the merit of the train on him and appreciated it for what it was. His case on Snow kinda came out of left field but after Snow completely fell to pieces right after the fact I thought it was a good one, even if it turned out to be wrong.
Even ignoring Ryogo, we still have not heard from Excal, Strago, OK or Delta today, so I don't see any merit to ending the day early (not that I see any merit in accepting Ryogo as a day-ending modkill to begin with).
-
Kilga my man, what are your thoughts on Xanth?
.... or anything beyond back and forthing with Bard?
-
Things that have happened today from what I can tell:
Kilga vs. Bard! I'm...not getting much of a read from this; it seems its just two people butting heads, with misconceptions involved, etc. I can see any sort of interaction from any side getting into this exchange, and with the dual scum faction, it just makes things harder to perceive, so yeah.
Stuff regarding Xanth, be it him posting and or the cases me and Alex put on him.
This...is pretty sad for Day 2. If it ends in a Modkill, then...well, I think the a *PSYDUCK* reaction would be most appropriate in this game.
In any event, people need to speak up more! I'm not saying "I'm suspicious of everyone who hasn't spoken!" I'm saying "How the fuck are we (town) suppose to win if others do not interact?" Please speak up people!
-
Blech, missed Nietz's posts somehow! Ok, he made a case on Ryogo, and otherwise spoke about suspicions regarding Delta and Xanth. Add that to my list above! Still doesn't change the fact that for a 24 hour span, nearly nothing has happened...
-
My back-and-forth with Bard is only because there are very few other people talking, and none of said people are people I have issues with. I think my vote placement says a lot about my current feelings (though it would probably be on Bard if Delta suddenly vanished).
I think there is indeed a reasonable argument for Xanth being scum as has been presented, and would be less than surprised by a Delta/Xanth scum team. I'm not sure about the validity of his Meeple case (prior to the vig claim) because, honestly, I skimmed most of Meeple's Day 1 posts (for reasons that are likely similar to Alex skimming Snow's posts). Since I've spent tonight organizing my Touhou images folder, I suppose I have no real excuse for not going back and looking at Meeple's posts and comparing them to Xanth's case (as well as looking at Xanth's posts and comparing them to the "methodical and base-covering" accusation).
-
Y'know, I actually somewhat agree with Xanth's accusation of "talk lots say little" against Meeple. Meeple spent a good chunk of time on Day 1 talking about irrelevant things, and 95% of his game-relevant content was focused on either Xanth or Snow. He didn't give us very many opinions to work with otherwise.
Reread of Xanth's Day 1 posts forthcoming, though MeepleWall OD has me a bit dizzy.
-
Augh okay. Facing a possible day end in 12ish hours, leading to a night with two scum kills... no, don't want that, so I'll go ahead and claim here.
I have or had a cop power, not saying how many shots. Investigated Xanth, due to random + gut + having been "the other day 1 train". Xanth is scum.
I did not claim this right off the bat today because I wanted to gather as many reactions as possible, given that we're facing two scumteams, and not just end the day with "Whelp let's lynch Xanth." Wanted to claim it about halfway in. Can't count on Ryogo showing up, though, which puts the effective deadline at a very inopportune time tomorrow... and I think we really need to lynch scum today. So.
Bard's constant clashing with Xanth, along with memories of Otter and general vehemence, is what made me back off of him a bit here... though nothing stops him from being on the other scumteam, I guess. But. Xanth needs rope today.
-
Oh, well, okay then.
##Unvote: Deltaflyer
##Vote: Xanth
As stated previously, a Delta/Xanth scum team would not surprise me in the least, so I expect to hop back over to Delta should Xanth flip as Alex has claimed he will.
-
Just for the sake of having something else to discuss, were I to assume my Delta/Xanth scum team guess to be accurate, my guess for second scum team would actually be Bard/Alex, as crazy as that sounds (and knowing how much I've been trumpeting that Alex is town).
Or it would have been before this cop claim, which kinda throws a wrench into my thought process.
I really wish the five people that have not posted since the day began would get their asses in this thread.
-
Yeah, totally. We need to keep on finding the other scum, particularly the non-Xanth team, but I've no clue where to begin since everyone seems to have dropped off the face of the earth?
-
Alright, so I can't show up for a day and... yeesh. Not a lot of content, but what is here is... yeah. Looks like Ryogo's gone, and we have a cop claim, so. I don't see anything in Alex's past behaviour to really doubt him, and while I don't think Xanth is overly suspicious either, Alex's claim is something we can check in more detail as the game goes on. So,
##Vote: Xanth
Aside from that, I know that I don't trust Bard's arguments worth crap. I mean, they started ok but have steadily gotten worse and now are just generally look bad. Oddly, I do get the ring of honest scum hunting in his anti-Alex zeal. But, there's still something that rings wrong with the way he jumped on Xanth on Day 1. This may be an interesting avenue of discussion to follow if Xanth is actually scum. And, still utterly baffling if he isn't.
Nietz, is someone else I'm vaguely interested in. Mostly because he drops in, says something vaguely agreeable, and then drops out for a bit. Never a whole lot at once, just in and out. Not sure there's anything there, just want to mention him for now in order to remind myself he's still there.
-
Augh okay. Facing a possible day end in 12ish hours, leading to a night with two scum kills... no, don't want that, so I'll go ahead and claim here.
I have or had a cop power, not saying how many shots. Investigated Xanth, due to random + gut + having been "the other day 1 train". Xanth is scum.
I did not claim this right off the bat today because I wanted to gather as many reactions as possible, given that we're facing two scumteams, and not just end the day with "Whelp let's lynch Xanth." Wanted to claim it about halfway in. Can't count on Ryogo showing up, though, which puts the effective deadline at a very inopportune time tomorrow... and I think we really need to lynch scum today. So.
Bard's constant clashing with Xanth, along with memories of Otter and general vehemence, is what made me back off of him a bit here... though nothing stops him from being on the other scumteam, I guess. But. Xanth needs rope today.
Goddamnit.
Bullshit Alex.
I didn't get back early enough to bread-crumb this, but...
I AM A COP
I call bullshit on this because I investigated YOU last night. And you know what I found? A big red M. You are scum, Team Magma.
I also call bullshit because you also mention that you don't know how many shots you have, while it was stated by the mod that there would be NOTHING hidden. So yeah, nice try.
Of course, you could very well be a scum cop. In which case, thanks for letting us know about Xanth, if that's the case.
I highly suggest we lynch Alex. Alternatively, Meeple, you still have the vig? We could use it on Alex, then go for Xanth as a lynch. Gets two kills in a day. I think I do believe Alex may be a cop, but a scum cop - in which case, we now know what Xanth is, if he's to be believed. Still, Alex is a sure bet. He lied, based on the mod's notes.
##Vote: Alex
-
Huh, that's interesting. Two things, OK. First, re-reading what Alex said, he said he wasn't going to tell us details. Indeed, he said he had a cop power, and it may still be there, and that he's not saying anything about how many uses he has. So all of your commentary about how he lied is, well, wrong.
Also, I'm curious as to why you picked Alex. He mentioned why he picked Xanth, so why did you pick him?
-
Sigh... Damnit, OK, did you have to drop something like that just as I was about to go to sleep? I should be back before Ryogoline, but yeah... leaving my vote where there's more votes until I get some answers, or know which cop I find to be more trustworthy. Since, yeah. Push comes to shove, having this day end with a modkill would be really damn disappointing.
Anyways, sleep.
-
Ah, well this is convenient. Speaking of calling bullshit:
A. I know exactly how many shots I have. What I said - very clearly, or at least I thought so - was that I wasn't going to claim them, for reasons that should be quite obvious to anyone thinking from a town perspective. So you didn't really read or think at all.
B. My results just sense whether the target has sinister intent, ie town or scum. No read on which scum team someone is on. As is standard for the cop role. Of course, a scum fakeclaiming (such as I think OK has just outed himself to be) might not think of this.
C. ... directing the claimed vig, who is open to being blocked or killed or whatever'd by both scum teams? And suggesting that the vig kill the guy you claim to know to be scum while you lynch Xanth anyway? Really? .....really?
Also there's the whole thing about where were you and you really couldn't spare the time to drop in and tell town you got a scum result or do anything with it... but you'll claim IRL issues there, whether or not it's true, so I guess that's moot. But still.
So this is scum OK coming in for a hail mary here to get some confusion and another free night for his scumteam going. I guess all I can say there is thanks for tomorrow's lynch. Obviously I know he's lying, the rest of y'all judge for yourselves, I'm here for some hours yet to answer any questions.
-
I checked Alex yesterday because of the fire levied from him at Snowfire.
The comments made towards him and his play yesterday and today have echoed with me well. He pushed a train yesterday, and kept pushing it. He jumped on people for comments that seemed benign. Also, as Alex said, "random + gut". Nothing against the guy, but I am always wary of him. He was someone with the 3rd most votes overall through the day. The person he pushed a lot was town.
I didn't inspect anyone night one. I had only one shot of it, and wanted to make sure I had some stuff to go off of to decide who to investigate. If Alex is a scum cop (which I am inclined to believe), then both our stories make sense. Alex saying he has or had a cop power is a bit...off. I understand why he would say that he's not providing it...but by saying he's a cop who may or may not have any shots left? He's still attracting a night kill. Why would any scum team take the chance? If it's true, he's a confirmed townie to die, and one that's been active in conversation and pushing things. That's still someone good to nuke. By making that claim of you may or may not, you still leave the possibility that you do have additional shots remaining. So yeah, not exactly safe. I thought that through fine.
If he had only one shot, he probably waited like I did to see who was who during the day. Xanth could be scum, and on the other scum team.
My role PM stated that I would know who's who because of the shirts worn. It was in the info I got that you had a gigantic M on yours. Don't make the assumption that I can't know what team someone is on because it's not "standard". You should know very well that things don't have to be standard.
If Meeple claimed vig one-shot, he's dead tonight too. Better use it as soon as possible for the town's good if we can. I made a suggestion based upon cop information. Town needs to use resources.
-
You mean you didn't inspect anyone night zero.
Leaving the question open of whether I had more shots or not is purely WIFOM to mess with the heads of scum trying to find good targets to kill. There's no reason town needs to know that information right now.
We're pokemon, not humans, so why are you investigating shirts? Investigating the dead trainers?
The setup is semi-open, so yes, things do have to be fairly standard. Cops being able to differentiate between the scum teams wouldn't be out of the question, mind. But since I, yknow, am one, I know pretty well what I can and can't do, and I can't tell teams. I also obviously know you're lying, sooo. The rest of town basically has to weigh my word against yours here, and I'm pointing things out for their benefit.
Also, according to the semi-open setup, there are no scum cops, only scum rolecops.
What Meeple needs to do is try and use his role the best way he can. Directing the vig is never, never a good idea, and I would like to point out again that you suggested directing him to kill me and lynch Xanth rather than the other way around, which is just "what" no matter how you look at it.
-
##UNVOTE: SirAlex
##VOTE: Xanth
If Alex is wrong we can lynch him tomorrow, OblivionKnight. As much as I have been pushing for his lynch, I am content for now to believe that he is, indeed, a cop who has, indeed, pointed us at scum. If he has (not), well, then the other scum team may kill him, Meeple can kill him or we'll lynch him the day after.
Do you guys mind if I put off the aforementioned promised responses until Day 3 or is it important that we first discuss that right now?
-
Wait what.
I didn't have a problem with Alex, and I don't see what his angle is here as scum given that I'm not a miller (and assume he wouldn't be making this claim if he thought he might be insane?), but OK's claim likewise. Dare I ask how Rat's ability could affect any of this? I can roleclaim if desired given that I have already used my power (and breadcrumbed it pretty badly), but I don't see it making a difference to anyone.
##Vote: Alex because I can't see scumOK unless Alex is on the opposing scum team. Will think the mess through more if I don't hang in the meantime.
Meeple's case on me is still unfounded. I know the attention and weight has shifted just about totally off of it now, but I'll be frustrated if people use it to tip the balance of cop claim vs cop claim in favour of lynching me based on it.
Ninja: putting me to -1. Oh well. I still don't want to full roleclaim as it affects one of the players who hasn't posted yet, but I am a one-shot rolecop (expended), which I know doesn't help my case at all.
-
Um
Happy as I am that Bard's vote is going on Xanth, I gotta point out, that's an awfully weird post there. Unless you think there's a paranoid/insane cop in this setup, either myself or OK *and* Xanth are scum. (NINJA- or Rat messed things up I guess) I personally find paranoid/insane in this setup unlikely to the point of unbelievability, since with two scum kills a night the fallout from a faulty cop would make it virtually impossible for town to win at all; this is why I haven't questioned my result. (NINJA - and I don't think Rat busdrove, see below)
I was going to say that post made me pretty certain Bard was scum #3 due to ignoring the OK/me duality, but in the course of typing this and thinking it over some more I'm not quite as sure since I guess he's mainly just saying to test my result and see what happens.
Still, Bard, if you're town you may be dead tomorrow and we've scumhunting yet to do, so I would indeed love for you to continue posting.
Ninja: Xanth... brings up a VERY good point about Rat's ability. Personally I don't think he used it, just based on knowing Rat and knowing how much Rat hates bus driving (he was one in Smash Bros and hated it). It is something to be considered, though....
... but regardless, according to the semiopen setup, there are no town rolecops. Unless you extend cop (all varieties) to rolecop... which is a giant stretch to me given how the list is otherwise exhaustive and specifies things like lie detector for town and rolecop specifically as scum. Soooooo I am pretty sure Xanth just literally claimed scum.
-
Alex: I specifically asked QR about why rolecop wasn't in the town list, which is at least part of why the interest thread was updated from 'cop (all sanities)' to 'cop (all varieties)'. I'm sure she can verify that if you'd like.
-
That would be useful, yes. Bringing it up at all means it's most likely true, so strike that point. Still want Xanth hung today, though, since as stated I don't believe Rat used his ability. And even if he did, that removes the necessity of OK being scum, and... I'm back to seeing scumXanth anyway and agreeing with Meeple's case and the stuff I posted at the start of the day on him, which I found mainly because my result made me look for it, but holds together firmly enough for me regardless.
-
Hello guys, sorry for lurking. Computer troubles, and a lengthy visit to the doctor's for a viral infection have impeded my ability to get online, and I have tests all through monday-thursday. Damn I hate school sometimes.
Anyways.
Augh okay. Facing a possible day end in 12ish hours, leading to a night with two scum kills... no, don't want that, so I'll go ahead and claim here.
I have or had a cop power, not saying how many shots. Investigated Xanth, due to random + gut + having been "the other day 1 train". Xanth is scum.
I did not claim this right off the bat today because I wanted to gather as many reactions as possible, given that we're facing two scumteams, and not just end the day with "Whelp let's lynch Xanth." Wanted to claim it about halfway in. Can't count on Ryogo showing up, though, which puts the effective deadline at a very inopportune time tomorrow... and I think we really need to lynch scum today. So.
Bard's constant clashing with Xanth, along with memories of Otter and general vehemence, is what made me back off of him a bit here... though nothing stops him from being on the other scumteam, I guess. But. Xanth needs rope today.
Goddamnit.
Bullshit Alex.
I didn't get back early enough to bread-crumb this, but...
I AM A COP
I call bullshit on this because I investigated YOU last night. And you know what I found? A big red M. You are scum, Team Magma.
I also call bullshit because you also mention that you don't know how many shots you have, while it was stated by the mod that there would be NOTHING hidden. So yeah, nice try.
Of course, you could very well be a scum cop. In which case, thanks for letting us know about Xanth, if that's the case.
I highly suggest we lynch Alex. Alternatively, Meeple, you still have the vig? We could use it on Alex, then go for Xanth as a lynch. Gets two kills in a day. I think I do believe Alex may be a cop, but a scum cop - in which case, we now know what Xanth is, if he's to be believed. Still, Alex is a sure bet. He lied, based on the mod's notes.
##Vote: Alex
This is where all my thoughts get tangled up, so to speak. It reeks of WIFOM to me, in that OK could be lying, trying to draw Alex out, He could be telling the truth, and Alex really is scum (which is the result I am leaning towards) or, in one case, they are both telling the truth, and Xanth is well, f***ed.
You mean you didn't inspect anyone night zero.
Leaving the question open of whether I had more shots or not is purely WIFOM to mess with the heads of scum trying to find good targets to kill. There's no reason town needs to know that information right now.
We're pokemon, not humans, so why are you investigating shirts? Investigating the dead trainers?
The setup is semi-open, so yes, things do have to be fairly standard. Cops being able to differentiate between the scum teams wouldn't be out of the question, mind. But since I, yknow, am one, I know pretty well what I can and can't do, and I can't tell teams. I also obviously know you're lying, sooo. The rest of town basically has to weigh my word against yours here, and I'm pointing things out for their benefit.
What? Anyways. I do not see why cops being able to differentiate would be out of the question. Why would this be the case?
Just my initial thoughts. More to follow, probably some walls of text. Be warned.
-
I'm honestly more inclined to believe Alex than OK.
Though, unless I'm mistaking, doesn't the rules of THIS GAME state "There are no hidden roles" or some such? Forget the wording, but it implied that your role is exactly as the PM states, eg if you're a Cop, you're probably a standard one (not Paranoid, insane, etc.)
OK feels more suspicious to me at the moment for a number of reasons. Alex has been taking part in Day 2, and then pretty much gave a good reason to explain why he's the Cop; Ryogo might get modkilled and end the day (though, does that mean the person with the plularity still gets lynched too? Unsure how End Day Modkills work), and we've had very little discussion.
I keep my vote on Xanth now, since my earlier misgivings + Alex's claim. I'm not inclined to believe OK's role at least until we get a flip on someone relevant at the moment either.
-
Oh, well, okay then.
##Unvote: Deltaflyer
##Vote: Xanth
As stated previously, a Delta/Xanth scum team would not surprise me in the least, so I expect to hop back over to Delta should Xanth flip as Alex has claimed he will.
You do not appear to have given a reason for this, can you explain?
Xanth, you say that you have expended your role-cop power:
Ninja: putting me to -1. Oh well. I still don't want to full roleclaim as it affects one of the players who hasn't posted yet, but I am a one-shot rolecop (expended), which I know doesn't help my case at all.
But whom did you use it on?
Reads on others:
Kilga and Bard:
Appear to have contributed lots, but from skimming, I have only seen real banter, not discussion. Probably due to the fact that everyone (including myself, sorry) was bunking off. I do wish to know your full arguement why me and Xanth would be a likely scumteam, because I have not seen it, unless you just said it on a whim.
Xanth is at -1. I say that we do not hammer him. yet. Until Strago and Nietz have said their pieces on the events of today. Essentially, I say we do hammer him before the modkill occurs, so that we take out two possible birds with one stone. Ryogo has been late and lurking and etc.etc. in two games now, honestly, without contribution he is better off gone.
OK made a rather astonishing claim which has (as I said prior) confused me. He has claimed cop also, and this early in the game, I see that as a slightly dumb move, even though it has produced discussion. I am undeicided between the two of them currently, as both are claiming cop, but I am leaning towards OK's arguement being better, as I think that scum would only do something like that, and directly challenge a townie, on a crazy gambit.
knowing Rat and knowing how much Rat hates bus driving
Bus Driving? Could you elaborate on this please? Sorry if I come across as a little dense, but I am unfamiliar with this.
To sum things up: FoS: Xanth
And Next will be my analysis of the happenings of day one. *sigh*
-
How long until modkill?
-
To Delta:
- I didn't say cops being able to tell scum teams apart was beyond possibility. From a neutral standpoint it is within possibility. However, since I AM a cop, I happen to know that I cannot tell scum teams apart, so.
- Bus Driving is a certain role that is able to switch around the targets of other people's night actions. The traditional bus driver can pick two people per night, and they are switched for that night in terms of targeting - anyone who attempts to target one of them with a night action will actually affect the other. Rat received this role in Smash Bros Mafia, a game that I modded, and expressed to me on several occasions his distaste for it. In THIS game, his role seems to have been a special third party variant.
I don't know exactly what it would do, but "Omni" and "Insane" are kind of scary adjectives. My assumption is that it would affect many or even all night actions in some way, probably completely randomizing them? Something like that? Whatever it was, though, I don't think Rat actually triggered or used it. I think if people's night actions had been messed with, we would have seen more obvious signs of it today.
We only have about 5 hours before Ryogo's modkill, and my understanding is that that will indeed end the day without any other lynch, so it is important to hammer Xanth before that time. It's 9 AM here, which means 7 in QR-land, and I believe she said noon her time.
-
Hi guys! I'm alive! Argh I suck at not having life explode all in my face whenever I'm playing Mafia. Catching up with FURIOUS SPEED right now. Right this moment.
-
Meeple, can you dayvig? You might want to use it right now if so.
Delta: My reason for switching to Xanth is Alex's copclaim + scum-result-claim. I thought that was really obvious, given it happened in the post before.
-
Alright, this needs to be short as I have rehearsal in an hour. And obviously ending today with a Ryogo modkill helps nobody and... maybe puts us in weird LYLO in a way we're really not ready for? I dunno, always terrible at LYLO math.
Bardiche: I am totally skeeved out by his most recent post, somehow. What the frak, dude? The one guy you've been vehemently pushing for in a big way drops a cop claim and suddenly you're saying you trust him and doing some weird vig semi-direction all wrapped into it too? Bizarre, and given the doubts I had about your presentation of the case against Alex to begin with, I don't think I'd mind seeing you hand tomorrow. But we'll see.
AND BUT I'M CONFUSED, BECAUSE: Alex's ribbing of Bard for bad play and uncivil behavior (before the cop claim dropped, I believe) struck me as shit-stirring in the same way that Xanth v. Delta slightly did at the beginning of Day 1. So I just don't know what to freaking think anymore and still going back to my original proposal that we're looking at two opposing scums there.
Alex and OK. Criminy. OK was basically non-existent throughout the whole game so I have nothing to go on other than:
1. Mis-reading/deliberately misinterpreting Alex's comment about multiple Cop-uses comes across as yucky.
2. The thing about the "M," confirmation that Alex is apparently Magma instead of Aqua, which, sigh. Weird flavor, or a slightly-too-exuberant fakeclaim? I don't know!
I barely have a read on Xanth! He's just sort of vaguely there without any strong arguments. Which certainly could be scummy, for sure.
Dang it. Xanth's -1 to lynch, right? The more I think about it the more I think that it'd be foolish, given the modkill deadline we're looking at, not to test the veracity of our copclaim here. And, fuck me, if I had more time or thought we had more time in general I think I'd honestly push for lynching Alex or OK, but at this point I have to be out the door in twenty minutes. Crap.
Alright, announcing intent to hammer Xanth in the next twenty-ish minutes.
-
Mmm, looking at Meeple's claim it appears he's night-only.
-
Delta: My reason for switching to Xanth is Alex's copclaim + scum-result-claim. I thought that was really obvious, given it happened in the post before.
No... I asked you why you thought myself and Xanth were in a scumteam together and to show me the proof, not why you voted Xanth. Speaking of which, I will hammer Xanth after (if) you reply. I wanna hear this now, rather than wait.
-
Does that mean you're around to hammer Xanth if people want to get another 30 minutes or so of conversation in before modkill deadline, Delta? If people would prefer that, I'm happy to leave the sacred duty in your hands.
-
Yeah, of course.
-
Word to that.
-
I am still here if people have things to ask. Not really much else I can come up with on my own here given the situation. Will be sleeping soon though.
Regarding Bard, I... thought I was trying to back off and get him to calm down as well? And that it seemed to work and result in more rational behavior all around? I'm really confused as to how Strago sees that as stirring things up more? But that doesn't really lead anywhere argumentswise, probably more of an aftergame discussion note.
-
Nietz, is someone else I'm vaguely interested in. Mostly because he drops in, says something vaguely agreeable, and then drops out for a bit. Never a whole lot at once, just in and out. Not sure there's anything there, just want to mention him for now in order to remind myself he's still there.
Aw, give me a break... I posted early yesterday and kept waiting the whole day without anything showing up. Apparently this game moves faster while I'm asleep. I do admit that I tend to focus on the cases that interest me and try to be succinct about then.
Anyway, I have good reasons to be convinced Xanth is scum now. Namely:
Ninja: putting me to -1. Oh well. I still don't want to full roleclaim as it affects one of the players who hasn't posted yet, but I am a one-shot rolecop (expended), which I know doesn't help my case at all.
Since rolecop is in the setup as both a town and scum role, and that I am the town's rolecop (1-shot), I'm pretty sure he's the scum one.
Incidentally, Ryogo is a roleblocker.
I will have to leave now, so someone else will have to hammer.
-
Oh.
Delta: I believe you two could be a scum team on the grounds that the Early Day 1™ spat could have easily been a distancing tactic, your vote on Snowfire when the Xanth train was still within striking distance of the Snowfire train, and the complete lack of interaction between the two of you since that Early Day 1™ bit (except for Xanth mentioning you in the sequence where he discusses everyone).
There's also the fact that I think you're scum and we have a scum-claim by a cop-claim on Xanth.
-
I guess that seals it then. Kilga isn't on the actives list so-
Blarg- Kilganinja'd as I voted: Why do you think I am scum? If it is because of the long waiting times to get a reply off me, I believe I have fully explained that, and it will not happen again. Apart from school which is... yeah. Unavoidable.
You answer this and then I shall hammer, because the Nietz claim has sealed it for me.
-
Screw it: ##VOTE: Xanth.
Tell me tommorow Kilga.
-
Sorry folks, just woke up.
*Hammer*
The second day started quietly. Too quietly. All of the Pokemon sat and watched each other, only occassionaly sending out any feelers on who might be the Magma Pokemon they were searching for. It wasn't until they realized that they seemed to have lost another Pokemon, a Swallot by the name of Ryogo, that they rallied themselves. They argued intensively, trying to find the ones among them that didn't belong so they would be free to search for their missing target. The gathered Pokemon were shocked by the words of a Shelgon named Alex who claimed to have heard a Magma pokemon talking during the night. He pointed to the little Castform named Xanth as the culprit. An Exploud immediately raised his voice, yelling that the Shelgon himself was a Magma Pokemon and not to be believed. Despite some terpidition, the Pokemon gathered together and pummeled the SHelgon into the ground. When they went to his sleeping spot to look around, they found a small scrap of cloth with a blue A on it. The group was shocked. Not only was Magma interested in the temple, but Aqua as well! This was a most distressing turn of events. At least they now knew b etter what they were facing.
Feeling confident, they gatahered around, searching for the missing Swallot. They found him at the bottom of a small drop off. Apparently he had wandered off on the night searching for some food and had fallen down, knocking himself unconcious. Shaking their heads, the remaining Pokemon returned to their sleeping places to await another day to hopefully finish their search.
Xanth (Castform) has been mass KO’d. (TEAM AQUA, One-Shot each of Hitman, Rolecop and Roleblocker)
Ryogo (Swallot) has been self-KO'd. (Town Aligned, One-Shot Roleblocker)
--------------------------------------
Night phase. Please send in your night actions. If you have the ability to do things at night but choose not to do them, make sure I have a PM to that effect. Nights last a maximum of 24 hours, so the sooner I get all actions (or lack thereof) in, the faster the new day will start.
---------------------------------------
FINAL VOTECOUNT
Deltaflyer (0): Kilgamayan
Meepleard (0): Xanth
SirAlex (2): Bardiche, OblivionKnight, Xanth
Xanth (6): Meepleard, SirAlex, Kilgamayan, Excal, Bardiche, Deltaflyer
Ryogo (1): Nietz
-
The Pokemon awoke on the third morning to the sounds of struggle. By the time they reached the sleeping space of the poor Delkatty, it was quite knocked out. The bed showed signs of a struggle, but no real indication of who among them had done the deed. As they walked back to the opening in front of the temple to begin the third day, they came across another vicitim of the night. The large body of the Hariyama blocked the pathway to the temple. No more could be seen in the area to tell who the killer had been.
Disheartened, the Pokemon travelled on to the temple and began again.
Bardiche (Delkatty) has been stealithy KO'd. (Town-Aligned, One-Shot Doc)
Strago ((Hariyama) has been stealithy KO'd. (Town-Aligned. One-Shot Bodyguard)
Day Three starts now. With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Please remember that any Modkills during the day phase end the day.
POSSIBLE LYLO has been reached.
-
Oh well...
After Xanth's flip, I'm much inclined to believe that SirAlex is Team Magma's JOAT, and found out Xanth by his role description rather than alignment.
No idea about his partner, though I also suspect Delta of being Xanth's buddy.
-
Ok, I used my Vig and...it didn't work, so I'm guessing I hit a bullet proof person or they got protected (possibly by Strago, which means we'll never know?). I used it on OK cause my suspicions regarding his claim on Alex...well, yeah, they didn't sit right, especially after the Xanth flip. Since we're in LYLO, might as well full Roleclaim:
I'm Manectric. Something like my Trainer was a skilled assassin, and hired to help take out Team Aqua and Magma, and I picked up a few of his tricks along the way, hence the Vig skills. I can't say much more beyond that though.
-
So, easy call today... for me.
##Vote: OK
Meeple's story is consistent with OK pulling this out as a godfather to try and get me lynched, and Nietz helpfully indicates why it was a nice attempt for OK to do so. But no dice. Fortunately there's a nice way to prove this.
- Strago (and/or Bard?) had no reason to protect OK last night, since to them he was either A. scum or B. town telling the truth about me, in which case OK getting NK'd would actually be helpful and confirm his claim.
- For the people who are neither Meeple nor myself, this involves having to trust Meeple. I myself know OK is lying, but I additionally trust Meeple because he claimed vig out of nowhere. I can't see him pulling that out as scum.
-
Roleclaim: Mighteyena. I'm a one-shot roleblocker, which is already used (touched Bardiche Night 1).
Delta: I think you are scum for train-related reasons outlined here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55438#msg55438) as well as the scumdar ping described here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55035#msg55035).
General thoughts: I'm...not sure how I want to proceed today. Alex makes a good point about Meeple's early claim making it believable...but I sort of want to lynch Delta over either of Alex or OK in order to cut down the NKs per night to 1 (assuming Delta is indeed Xanth's partner). I'm going to need to think about it.
-
Aside from that, I'd like to note that I think there's a strong possibility of Nietz being a Magma rolecop/JOAT/whatever, on the sheer strength of his back to back posts going "Oh I'm town rolecop so Xanth's scum rolecop" and then "Whoops I guess there's another scum rolecop after all, it's Alex!" Not a sure thing, but the turnaround there is astounding.
Ninja - Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
We just had a town roleblocker flip, and Kilga is sure enough on Delta being Xanth's partner to override the certainty that either OK or myself is scum? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.
I don't even know anymore.
-
Because this is LYLO, I'm a bit shaky on putting votes, but yeah, I'm definitely not liking OK. If he's a Godfather, then that would explain why he survived the Vig, and I expect he was on Team Magma, since he probably sent out his scum buddy to kill.
##FoS: OK
I want to hear him speak before acting.
Alex, OOC, could you full roleclaim? This is LYLO, after all; simply saying "Cop" is good from before, but I'd like to hear the full thing.
-
Alex: I haven't fully run the numbers in my head yet regarding 2 Magma vs. 1 Magma and 1 Aqua going into tonight, and the problem with even doing that is trying to gauge who the 1 Magma and 1 Aqua are and then guessing how urgent they think offing the other party is (and THEN trying to actually guess the other party correctly).
If neither off the other, then we're at 1M/1A/2T which is basically impossible for town to win. If one of them offs the other, then we're at 1S/3T LYLO, which I believe MS calculated to have worse vacuum odds of town winning than 2S/3T. Then they could off each other which would be very nice but highly unlikely.
...Writing it all out like that and looking at it, I must say I'm leaning back toward picking between the two of you.
Also I really hope you're not using setup-meta to question your opinion of me.
-
No, I'm using the classic "ignores a copclaim duality" scumtell to question my opinion of you, Kilga. >_> For all that it's not as applicable in this setup... it's... uh... still pretty applicable.
Full claim, sure. I am Shelgon, prevolution of Salamence, my pure hearted wish to fly in the sky lets me Detect whether the hearts of others are pure or not, but only once. One shot cop.
-
Then why bother bringing up the roleblocker flip?
-
I'll also be totally honest and say that I have zero confidence in my decision-making skills right now, since Bard, Snow and Strago have all flipped town and I'm presented with a very real possibility that you are scum.
I'm not ignoring the copclaim duality so much as worried that whatever decision I make will be wrong given how much I've already been wrong this game.
-
Was just one of the first things that came to mind. Realized a bit after that it was poor setup meta, but... even so I find the claim a little suspicious.
If you're so worried about making the wrong decision and not trusting yourself why are you even contemplating Delta? That does not really seem to make any sense, since that case requires you to be trusting yourself to have identified him as not only scum but Xanth's partner, and to be confident in this above the duality guarantee.
-
I'm not entirely sure, but I'd guess it's because it's the path of least resistance.
Which isn't really a good town thing to do, is it? Now that I think about it.
I'll give OK a chance to post before I make a decision on which of you I should vote for, but I will vote for one of you.
-
Alright, we might be at LYLO, but at least we've drawn first blood.
Now, on to the main event. I like what Alex has done. He's been a busy and helpful bee, having been the guy that nabbed our first scum for us. Not to mention that there's been exactly three times when OK's been active. One joke vote, some decent, if utterly ineffectual stuff after the Day 1 Extension, and when he pulled out his cop claim last night. However, I find myself leaning towards believing OK.
The reasoning is pretty simple really. We had two protective roles go down last night. Either one of them could have given us the exact same effect that Meeple got as would Godfather OK. Toss in the fact that I don't see any benefit for OK in this. We know the roles don't lie, and if your sanity is in question, you'll be told that it's in question. OK seemed very sure that he was sane. So, I doubt there'd be any point whatsoever in Magma bussing Magma like that. After all, all that gets them is somebody with nicely confirmed town cred, and a member of the other scum faction happy to take them out. So, OK can't come out of nowhere and save his buddy with that claim as it just ties him to his scumbuddy if he actually manages to get the kill. Unless he manages to get lucky, and it turns out that Alex is, in fact, Magma.
So, I'll toss out a ##FoS: Alex because town OK looks a lot liklier than scum OK from where I'm sitting.
-
I am in Kilga's position also. I am on the fence, regarding the whole cop/cop fiasco. I do not currently know who to vote for, but Alex seems slightly more... I don't know. Real? Leaning towards a ScumOK lynch here, but (assuming there is more) who else is anyone's guess. Holding my vote for now.
-
I'm not really sure I understand what you're saying there, Excal?
Re: town protective roles, see my first post today. Someone who is claiming one shot cop with a scum result on someone who isn't dead yet is the absolute last person any protective role would go for, because even if they're telling the truth, that person being NK'd is still helpful to town since it confirms their claimed result. Not to mention in this particular case Meeple was around and likely to use his vig on either myself or OK to clear up the duality. Strago and Bard are smart folks, I don't think there's any way they wouldn't realize this and I don't think there's any way whatsoever they'd protect OK.
Re: Who OK is and the benefit he gained from this? I agree that he isn't Xanth's buddy, that wouldn't make sense. Pretty sure he's Magma Godfather. The benefit he gained from claiming yesterday is trying to set up for a lynch on me today. He had to know perfectly well that town would probably lynch Xanth yesterday despite his claim - in fact he called for exactly that, painting me as a "scum cop" and asking for a Xanth lynch and Meeple to try to kill me. That'd be win/win for him, since either Meeple kills me with his vig shot, or tries to hit OK instead. If Meeple kills me, great, he got the vig to kill the result-producing cop, if he tries to kill OK, that's fine too, he'd live through it and still be able to argue for my lynch today.
Of course, in either of these situations, OK himself gets quicklynched after I die and he's exposed as a liar. But that doesn't matter to him because at that point the damage is done - Meeple's shot is used, Aqua's lost a member, and the cop who exposed Aqua is down. Remember, this is potential LYLO - Magma could win outright if they managed to lynch me today, and even if they didn't and OK was lynched afterwards (or I was Meeplevigged and OK was lynched today), their surviving member would get multiple rounds of free kills and be in a vastly advantageous position. This is a very ambitious bid by Magma to gain ground. OK's periods of absence are likely real, due to his job and life... and that's probably exactly why they chose to use this play with him.
-
Alex, I like to think I'm decently bright, and I can see a argument to be made as to whether it's worth killing possible town in order to make sure we only need one day to lynch. Or, more importantly, if they assumed the scum wouldn't take the risk on town guessing right and just decided to guard him against that possibility. Hell, do the math and it's easy to see that if the scum didn't decide to help us, or Meeple guessed wrong and we'd be in LYLO now. So, why help put us further behind in this situation? So, no, I'm not so convinced that OK wasn't under protection.
That said, I didn't think about Team Magma wanting to jump in here. And I can see them pulling off a trick like that. Seems a bit risky, but definatly dividends there if done right. And, yeah, they hit three townies tonight, or Aqua, and it's a game. Not sure how I see it playing out just yet, but I'm going to sit on the fence until I see how OK replies at least.
-
Well I'm not so sure about Alex anymore after Meeple's claim of shooting OK. I guess I'll wait to hear what he has to say.
I'm still leaning more towards Alex because I don't entirely buy his reasons for investigating Xanth when he was so openly against Tom at the end of Day 1.
Kilga's claim as second town roleblocker is weird, though I just can't see what he would gain from it if he was scum.
-
That's simple enough - I only had the one shot. Why waste it on Tom, a high profile player who'd already made such a huge gaffe? Not only did I consider him scummy enough to not be worth it (sadly wrong, but blargh), if I used it on Tom it'd either be a waste if he was in fact scum, or a messy situation when I would have to roleclaim and back away from him the next day. In addition, he was high profile enough that other players might/probably would decide to do things to him themselves. Which indeed happened, though not from the town side. >_>
I already had an inkling from the other flips at that point that the whole game was going to be full of oneshots, so I went for a target that I hoped would do more good than just the almost-surely-scum-to-me-at-the-time problem of the moment.
And hey, it did work out, so.
-
VOTECOUNT
OblivionKnight (1) : SirAlex
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Deadline in 30 1/2 hours.
POSSIBLE LYLO has been reached.
-
The thing that makes me leerey about OK (compared to Alex) is that Alex has been actually consistently active, where as OK has been kind of hanging back the entire game, and popping in. RL Issues, maybe, but still...
I mean, from what I saw, it was basically the few people speaking on Day 2, which wasn't a lot, but still there was some discussion. Alex was one of those people, and trying to promote discussion. He claims Cop, exclaiming he doesn't want to see the day end due to a Modkill, and his cop-claim came true, so he has some credit thre.
OK though? comes out of nowhere, counter claims Cop and states "You are scum Alex!" He didn't do anything before that, from my recollection (gonna go back and check through Day 2, but given how Day 2 went, I don't think he said anything), and he even twisted Alex's words through this:
What Alex said: I have cop powers; I am not revealing how many shots I have left, if any, and I already used one.
What OK claimed Alex said: Alex claims to not know how many shots he has left, which goes against the "No Hidden Roles!" aspect.
He tried using that argument AGAINST Alex even, claiming the Cop Claim was suspicious since Alex "didn't know how many uses he had" but that's not what Alex said; Alex clearly stated (I read the line myself recently, mind) that he has x amount of shots, but he isn't revealing what x is.
This is why OK feels off. He comes out of nowhere to counter-claim Cop, claiming the Cop is scum, and used a "He sees Shirts!" excuse too, not quite explaining how that works (we're Pokemon, after all, we don't wear shirts!), and he contributed nothing else that day beyond that claim. Alex was contributing throughout the day. And Xanth's flip did in fact hold true to Alex's claim, so Alex does have some credibility there.
I'm thinking "OK is a God Father" is a very likely scenario, which would explain why he didn't die to my Vig, though its possible he merely got protected as well; I really don't know though. I just really don't like how OK looks, basically, and were it not LYLO, I'd vote him now.
-
24 hours, no OK, and Meeple makes some good points.
##Vote: OblivionKnight
-
I don't know if I'm gonna have a chance to do this later or not, given my current situation with the computer and all that so...yeah, we're running out of time, I might as well just vote for him NOW, and bite the bullet.
##Vote: Oblivionknight
That should put OK at -1 to hammer.
-
If I was not to vote OK now, it would be down to Excal to vote him, because deadline would come at a time whilst I would be in school. So, in the light of OK's disappearance, and the points that Meeple has made, I am going to have to vote OK as well.
The counter claim came out of nowhere, and his arguement against Alex was rather flawed, and for that reason:
##VOTE: ObilvionKnight
-
HAMMER
As the third day b egan, the gathered Pokemon realized that they were too few in numbers. They would need to tred carefully. The Shelgon stepped forward, adamant in his belief that the Exploud had to be the ring leader. No other argument seemed to hold logic for him. Other took up the call, asking for the Exploud to speak in his own defense. Sadly, the Exploud paid the arguments little heed, causing the assembled Pokemon to feel a rush of assurance. His disinterest was SURELY a sign that he was not truely trying to protect the temple. They converged on him and pounded him into the ground. A quick search of his sleeping space revealed nothing, however, and the Pokemon sought their beds that night in true fear and worry.
OblivionKnight (Exploud) was mass KO'd. (Town-Aligned, One-Shot Cop)
--------------------------------------
Night phase. Please send in your night actions. If you have the ability to do things at night but choose not to do them, make sure I have a PM to that effect. Nights last a maximum of 24 hours, so the sooner I get all actions (or lack thereof) in, the faster the new day will start.
---------------------------------------
FINAL VOTECOUNT
OblivionKnight (4) : SirAlex, Kilgamayan, Meeplelard, Deltaflyer
-
In the morning, four Pokemon found themselves still concious. They found the bodies of the Mighteyena and the Wurmple, but their sleeping spaces held nothing but bits of momentos of thier former trainers. The four went to the entrance of the temple and prepared to start again. The Sableye, the Manectric, the Shelgon and the Absol. All that remained.
Kilgamayan (Mighteyena) has been stealthily KOd. (Town-Aligned. One-Shot Roleblocker)
Nietz (Wurmple) has been stealthily KOd. (Town-Aligned. One-Shot Rolecop)
With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. LYLO has been reached.
EDITED for alignment. Sorry!
-
Shiz.
In light of these events, and the cop being wrong, I say we vote for Sir Alex. ##VOTE: SirAlex
In all honesty, I cannot see a win for town here, unless the townie is an additional roleblocker.
I'm biding my time for a minute here.
-
Actually, ##UNVOTE: Sir Alex
Im doubting myself now.
-
I...have no clue what to say, besides that...yeah, I can't see a reason to keep Alex alive. OK was apparently telling the truth, and unless this game has a framer in the mix, I don't see a reason to believe his claim.
And...
I was about to say "Maybe there's only one member of each team" but then I recognized that 2 people died last night so...yeah, I don't know how we can win this unless there's still some sort of role blocker around.
Massive ##FoS Alex in any event.
-
If one non-magma player votes for anyone other than magma, it is game over. So, I say that we need to not vote UNTIL certain.
I can only forsee magma having the same abilities as I presume Aqua did, seen at Xanth's demise. That would be, if I recall correctly, One-shots of Hitman, Rolecop and Roleblocker.
##HoS:Sir Alex, yes, but until I am sure, I am not voting for anyone. Neither should anyone else.
-
[minor nitpick]
It is day four, not day three, moderator.
[/minor nitpick]
-
Delta, while I can see the case on one member of Magma having the same abilities as Xanth, what makes you so certain that both members of Magma would have that ability set?
-
I did not at any point say that I was certain. I said that I can only foresee that they have the same abilities. I think that (and I know this is sorta wrong to try and figure out the game, but:) a total of four scum hitmen, four scum roleblockers and four scum rolecops would be a tad unbalanced, correct?
-
Alright, we know this much, Alex is scum. It also follows that Alex is Magma. The way he fingered Aqua makes no sense if he were anything but Magma, and Framer is not a role in this game.
Also, assuming that each scum team has two members, this means that only one member of town remains. Of course, this does not mean that town has lost. After all, if we lynch Alex, then there's still one member of Magma at large, one member of Aqua at large, and they both have nightkills. So, if they kill each other, then game ends, Town wins. (On the other hand, they can also both kill town, and then the game gets hatbotted as the lynch is forced). Granted, this is ignoring Godfather, in which case... does it apply. GF usually doesn't get NK immunity if they go out on the kill, but scum aren't forced to kill. Which means we might end tomorrow with anywhere from 1-3 people alive and still a crap shoot.
So... I'm oddly not that keen on that scenario. The other way town can win is if we can find the other Magma member. Even if Alex protects him, that's a 50% chance of him going down, and Alex is easy pickings. Granted, then Alex decides who wins, but it won't be him. Of course, as Delta said, if we pick wrong, Magma wins. But at least this way we get to pick.
So, uhhh, yeah. I'm still trying to decide which one I like best, but I think I'm leaning very heavily towards trying to find the other Magma member today. Sure, there's still Hatbotting likely involved, but at least then the end of the game will involve a lot more skill than just sit down and pray.
Edit for Delta: Which means there's likely a second skillset which we at present know nothing about. Either that, or the two teams are balanced differently. There simply isn't enough available info to tell.
-
Funny how the person we all suspect IS or HAS BEEN in the actives list since the discussions, and yet has made no posts nor arguements, isnt it? I ain't voting alex yet, but I am looking that way. Fiercely.
-
Delta, you're still on suspicion? I'm on knowledge. The only reason I haven't voted for him is because lynching him gets us a crapshoot where the winner gets picked in the night phase, unless we get very, very lucky with the role distribution.
-
Blarg, and I meant distribution and usage.
-
It's just pointing out that he has been here, and has either ignored the thread or, worse, read it and not replyed. I'm just pointing out inconsistancies here.
-
I don't know. The possibilities of loss are so high, and the mislynches and all have confused me. I go to bed now. Ill wake up in the morning, and probably be clearer then.
Just don't put a vote down unless you have substantial evidence and PROOF, otherwise we, er, yeah. Lose.
-
Hi. Dealing with some severe computer troubles at the moment.
Who's that scum? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9o5_W6hn9k)
It's me! \o/ Magma 4 Lyfe \o/
##Vote: Myself
Ahhh man that was a fun run while it lasted.
You should totally lynch me now though.
This is totally not a trap to ensure my godfather buddy wins.
OR IS IT?
-
what...the...chuff..?
-
Thats... erm... yeah.
Weird.
Well, if Excal votes, I'll vote, through sheer boredom and wanting this to end.
-
Graaaah. Dad orders me to sleep. I don't know what to do now! *whelp*
-
Actually, you know what? I already know how this game is going to end.
I can see how this is going to end.
We lynch alex, this means that the two other Scum left (yes, I know you're both scum. 4 People alive and what not, and Alex is ready to suicide, and still 2 kills a night)...one from Team Aqua and one from Team Magma. Given my earlier Roleclaim, I think you all know I'm the only town.
What's this lead too?
Whoever wins comes down to whoever doesn't die. Excal and Delta could both try to kill themselves, and that would let me win. However, that's not going to work. The alternate strategy? One of Excal and Delta aim at me, but that would mean they die, and thus, the opposing side wins.
so really? This is one hell of a MASSIVE PSYDUCK SCENARIO. And only cause I'm afraid to lynch the lone Team Aqua member cause that fucked up gambit is my only chance of winning (which I don't think is going to pass; I think both are going to aim at me, and force a draw...)
##Vote: Alex
-
##Vote: SirAlex
Do I even need a reason?
-
In a fit of pique, the Shelgon finally makes a break for the temple. The three Pokemon bring him down, but then realize that two of them can only be the other Team Magma and Team Aqua Pokemon. They sat watching each other for a moment. It was to unbelieving Manectric eyes that the two others turned to look at each other.
"I can't let your evil Masters have what's at the bottom of the temple!" The Absol cried, scratching the ground and glaring furiously at the Sableye.
The Sableye rose a few feet and hovered over the ground. "Well, your weak Masters shall not have it either!"
And as quickly as that, the two fought and knocked each other out. The Manectic was the only concious Pokemon when the rescuers arrived.
TOWN WINS!
Summary to follow.
-
TOWN
Kilgamayan (Mighteyena) : One-Shot Roleblocker.
Snowfire (Linoon) : One-Shot Tracker.
Nietz (Wurmple) ¨One-Shot Rolecop.
Ryogo (Swallot) : One-Shot Roleblocker.
EvilTom (Slakoth) : One-Shot Watcher.
OblivionKnight (Exploud) : One-Shot Cop.
Strago (Hariyama): One-Shot Bodyguard. Ability to post one final post after he dies in this fashion.
Sylon (Nosepass) : One-Shot Bulletproof. Passive, does not need to be declared.
Bardiche (Delkatty) : One-Shot Doc.
Meeplelard (Manectric) : One-Shot Vigilante.
Yoshiken (Illumise) : One-Shot Doc.
TEAM AQUA
Deltaflyer2k8 (Absol) : One-Shot each of; Roleblocker, Rolecop & Hitman.
Xanth (Castform) : One-Shot each of; Roleblocker, Rolecop & Hitman.
TEAM MAGMA
SirAlex (Shelgon) : One-Shot each of; Roleblocker, Rolecop & Hitman.
Excal (Sableye) : One-Shot each of; Roleblocker, Rolecop & Hitman.
THIRD PARTY
Carthrat (Baltoy) : Third Party Survivor. One-Shot Omni Insane Bus Driver (May randomize ALL night actions, even kills)
-----------------------------------------------
NIGHT 0 ACTIONS
Alex Rolecops Carthrat
Xanth Roleblocks Kilgamayan (use not used as Kilga did nothing)
YOSHIKEN MODKILLED
NIGHT 1 ACTIONS
EvilTom Watches Bardiche
Bardiche Docs EvilTom (power not used up)
Kilgamayan Roleblocks Bardiche
OblivionKnight Cops SirAlex
Nietz Rolecops Ryogo
Xanth Rolecops Strago
Excal Rolecops Xanth
Alex uses Hitman on EvilTom
Deltaflyer2k8 NKs Carthrat
RYOGO MODKILLED
NIGHT 2 ACTIONS
Meeplelard Vigs OblivionKnight (vig used, but failed to occur)
Bardiche Docs OblivionKnight
Strago Bodyguards Meeplelard
SirAlex Roleblocks Kilgamayan
Excal NKs Strago
Deltaflyer2k8 NKs Bardiche
NIGHT 3 ACTIONS
Excal Roleblocks Kilgamayan
SirAlex NKs Nietz
Deltaflyer2ky NKs Kilgamayan
NIGHT 4 ACTIONS
Excal Hitmans Deltaflyer
Delatflyer Hitmans Excal
-
lulz
-
I'm guessing that Excal used hitman on me as well then. I figured my roleblock wouldn't stop that if I used it on him, so I used my Hitman on him.
Anyways, good game all round. Was fun. Sorry to Xanth for *cough* killing my team-mate but I had to at least TRY to gain some town standing.
-
Also it fucking figures that the ONE THING I WAS RIGHT ABOUT ALL FUCKING GAME was going for Delta over one of Alex/OK on Day 3.
Also also Alex you should've totally claimed Aqua and tried to bullshit your way to getting Delta lynched.
-
Ninja'd by QR two I figure we both hitman'd each other. I didn't use regular NK on Excal.
-
Also it fucking figures that the ONE THING I WAS RIGHT ABOUT ALL FUCKING GAME was going for Delta over one of Alex/OK on Day 3.
I laughed. Alot.
-
Also also also shame on Alex and Excal for thinking Nietz was Xanth's buddy. Another part of the reason I was sure it was Delta was because everyone else in the game would've killed Alex the night after he claimed cop.
Also also also also I like how town won despite two town modkills, every NK prior to the end being a townie, masses of people going long stretches of time without talking (shame on all of Ryogo, Excal, Delta, Strago and OK for this) AND Tom being Tom. Again.
Also also also also also I felt bad for Rat because absolutely no one cared when he died.
-
Meeple as the sole survivor of pokemafia makes too much damn sense.
-
Heh, somehow, I had a feeling that'd happen.
Why? Cause the only way that either scum COULD win was to *NOT* attack me. I spelt out the exact scenario to yield paranoia. Really, if a scum attacked me, that'd be an AUTO LOSS to them, unless they both did, then it was a tie. Given this paranoia, I figured both would go after each other, hoping the other would attack me. Sure enough, that's exactly what occured!
So...JUST AS PLANNED!!!! or something!
But anyway, fun stuff.
-
Well, ties IIRC break via Hatbot, so the scum had 50-50 that way.
Still, this causes issues: if one shoots you, but the other shoots scum, they win period.
So killing you's still a gamble, while shooting the other's more likely. Prisoner's Gambit variant of sorts.
-
Meeple, you weren't cleared from being scum. It's just that I preferred to let Aqua win than Delta.
As for Delta? Nietz called the Inventor thing, which got us really paranoid on him being Aqua, since how the hell would he know otherwise. As for Bard Doccing OK? I'd just like to say to Alex here and now that I did, in fact, call that. Strago had way too much sense to do that.
-
I was raging so hard when you guys lynched OblivionKnight.
I was like, "WHAT THE HELL WAS I PROTECTING FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
But hey, we won. Good show.
It amuses me how I protected someone both nights but was thwarted the first night by Kilga. 8D
-
Bard, the best thing you could have done for town there was to let him die. That way, Alex dies day 3 instead of letting us mislynch again. Strago/Meeple had the right idea.
-
In fairness to myself (and Meeple I guess), if OK had shown up to say anything in his own defense I would have reconsidered.
-
And sorry for the incessant spamming (it stops now. Promise.) but I feel an inherant need to apologise to all whom I NK'd. I feel guilty taking people out of games. :-\
Funny as hell at the end though, as I went through WIFOM after WIFOM in my head before Alex Claimed. I ended up with hysteria. Yea.
Anyways, I cannot wait until my next game. I have the easter holidays from friday onwards, so BRING IT ON!
Ninja'd so many times I want to destroy the computer.
Meeps, I was praying that Excal would regular NK, and that a hitman NK would sorta 'beat' a regular NK. I was... um. wrong.
Ninja'd to the power of 6.
****
Kilga: I killed you instead of Alex simply because, well, I felt that the whole Alex situation wasn't NK-worthy. Don't ask. Put it down to Delta-ness.
Xanth: I really AM sorry for lynching you. Although, secretly, I was pissing myself laughing at the thought of me hammering a freindly scum as part of a weird Gambit. Probably woulda worked if I had targeted a scum that night too.
wrong. to the power of 8.
-
And I guarded OK because I figured scum'd go for him since I desked him as a real Cop. I wasn't expecting to die myself and would've fervently argued in his favour, considering it would be collosally stupid for him to reveal himself and...
Well, Team Aqua died and OK accused Alex of being Team Magma, which... made sense.
QuietRain actually mentioned something in the killing flavour about finding scrap of cloth with an A on it which implied shirts so I was like "guys what the hell".
So yeah from the start I was pretty sure Alex was scum, OK comes in and confirms he is scum, I'm like "OK! Save the town cop! Brilliant move!" and then only to find the town decides to lynch a copclaim anyway with all due haste.
This is why I fear Alex, freaking master of rhetoric.
-
I always have the right idea, Excal. Wooooooo go Town!
-
I can't help having a wacky logic mechanism. ;_;
-
Twist ending, huh? Good play by Meeple, really played the Prisoner's Dilemma thing for town's victory. (Well, it was not really PD, but some other theoretic game I don't remember now).
Seeing scum NK so many townies during the game was a little aggravating, but I suspected it would backfire on them in the end.
I confess I played a lot by setup meta theories, like:
- Snow's claim felt very believable because I had a similar role, and I didn't see why he would make the One-shot claim unless it was true (I didn't know at that time that most roles were one-shot).
- Tom immediately believed Snow's claim, and I was pretty sure it was for the same reason as me. So that basically cleared him for me as well. The way Alex attacked him nonetheless caught my attention as well.
- After Xanth's flip, I was convinced Team Magma would also have an Inventor on their side for balance. And why would Town Alex investigate him instead of the guy he said was suspicious? (Also, earlier I was hoping to find scum by role description myself, so I had that possibility in mind.)
- And how could anyone believe his claim that Tom was "too suspicious to waste an investigation on"!? My biggest mistake in the game was waiting for OK to post before replying to that. And then going to sleep and find out he was quicklynched.
- On that matter: What the hell, OK... Though coming so late to the game was a town tell, after 3 town modkills the last thing we needed was a cop who couldn't bother to post. His night survival was indeed fishy, I still don't understand Bard's reasons for trying to save a spent one-shot cop.
- Incidentally I never believed Meeple was actually a Vig. At first I was sure he was a Bomb trying to lure scum into killing him. And after he claimed to have shot OK I thought he was actually a Godfather.
-
Huh. Bizarre but fitting end to the game.
Amusing that both the Xanth/Delta speculation from Day 2 and the Alex / Excal speculation from Day 1 (cough, cough) turned out to be true. In fact, most of my confirmed townies were right too - EvilTom and Bardiche seemed to be the only people talking sense early on, and Meeple and OK seemed fine too. (I chatted with superaielman after I was dead, and let him in on some of my thoughts, so not making the "I would have told you so!" up.)
Anyway, glad that both Excal and Sir Alex WERE scum, I feel better now. They did successfully bait me, I'll grant- make an attack, let me defend, misrepresent the defense, force me to explain more, accuse that of being too WIFOMy, force me to explain more, and then accuse me of Wall of Texting. Town seriously needs to not fall for that, myself included for letting it happen. I also wish I'd been awake on the last night of Day 1 - the arguments on top of page 11 ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3132.msg55285#msg55285 ) were precisely the kind of misrepresentations that scum / cops tend to make when pressing a case, and I wish I'd been around to rage futilely at the heavens for that. Given more time, I probably could have articulated why I found SirAlex and Excal suspicious better, but I'd already been accused of too much text, and the short version in my mood at the time would have sounded too much like OMGUS.
Also. For me personally, I will say that the worst part of the game was the nonsense over Day 1 being shortened and then lengthened again. (EDIT: See below, apparently I was just insane on this and the day wasn't shortened from 72->36 hours, but it's what I thought at the time!) There are good arguments either way, but that kind of heated debate over mafia philosophy in the middle of a game wasn't fun and was highly avoidable. Kicked up way too much rancor and kept a bunch of people up late/early for a deadline that didn't happen. Also, though it's hard to do alternate history, it also partially led to my lynch - the major rallying cry SirAlex and Excal used was the "perpetuating the false dichotomy between Sylon and Xanth" and "didn't vote for the person he found scummiest" when there was like 3 hours left before a *possible* deadline that ended up not happening. I never would have cast the Xanth vote otherwise. So.... major meh to that.
Obviously, it was weird circumstances for me, but it looked like a fun game the rest of the way, at least. I will tip my hat to effective scum play, SirAlex deserves major credit for staying alive entirely too long and practically running town.
-
Also, random thought, though probably spoiled now. When reading the last day... I did have a moment of doubt where I considered that the scum team might have been SirAlex / Meeplelard (until I saw Excal's post about "let's try and lynch the other Magma member!" which basically said "Go Magma!"). It wouldn't have worked in this game, with no Godfather, but I didn't know that at first. Think of it this way:
* Godfather Meeple claims one-shot vigilante out of nowhere. Scumbuddy Alex groans about why you revealed it now. Seems like bad townie play.
* If rival team / disbelieving vig shoots Godfather, ting!
* If nothing suspicious happened during the night, say you didn't shoot, or that you hit bulletproof, or that you hit the same target as the scum did.
* If something happened that does fit in well... use it toss suspicion! "Yeah, I shot at the cop who I think is a liar, but look, a bodyguard died! He must have taken the shot!"
* Plus you're now sorta-certified as having a role! "I'm a vig, see this explanation from before!"
* And even better, because you declared your number of shots too soon, you have an excuse for why the mafia hasn't night-killed you. "They must be looking for power roles, they know I'm out of shots."
Due to the lack of godfathers, it obviously wouldn't have worked here, but a thought for the future.
Amusingly enough, my orders for Night 1 (which never mattered) would have been to track Ryogo, because I couldn't get a bead on him at all and figured that roles were best for investigating the quiet ones. Also, like many of the others, it was "one shot that actually worked," so it could theoretically have multiple uses, maybe. A neat touch to add uncertainty.
-
I would like to apologise for the inconvenience I have caused by dropping out of this game. I do hope I didn't upset anyone too badly by doing so.
-
Also. For me personally, I will say that the worst part of the game was the nonsense over Day 1 being shortened and then lengthened again.
SnowFire. You said this in game, too. In the interest thread and in the first post, it was always stated to be 36 hours. Where did I put 72? My error, seriously, but I can't find it.
-
I am 99% sure that the original post said 72 hours. It is, of course, possible that I read the wrong post or for a different mafia game, and if so, my apologies.... but that's what I recall.
-
The intent was always to be a short Day 1 and I can't find any mention of 72 hours. Perhaps it was just from a different Mafia game?
-
So you'd always intended 36? I suppose you would know, and that doesn't seem likely to have been a typo. Heh. Well, I did do some archive diving through old Mafia games recently, and I'll concede it's possible that some game there was 72 hours Day 1 / 48 hours other days. And I remembered that post. That's the only explanation I can think of.
The strange thing is that as you know I was one of the last ones to join with Sylon, and I re-read your original post then, and I still "remember" it as saying 72 hours very distinctly. I'd assumed you'd had a last-second change of heart and edited it away, but guess that didn't happen. Okay, if I was the crazy one, that's fine, and then you do have my deepest apologies for the misunderstanding. Stranger things have happened...
(Edit: And to be clear, this might explain my seemingly strange conviction for an extension? I thought we were just extending back to the originally planned timeframe, which is why I was so indignant about it.)
-
I still don't understand Bard's reasons for trying to save a spent one-shot cop.
At the time, I had a one-shot ability, Snowfire and there were three other one-shots revealed on flip. I had a reasonable suspicion that there would be more one-shot roles, so it wasn't so much as saving the one-shot cop as saving who I thought was genuinely town and needed to be preserved so we wouldn't needlessly lose someone.
I was also hoping Meeple would vig Alex instead of OK, since I kind of always think town follows leads from cops but yeah. The flip determined for me who to protect: if Xanth flipped Magma I'd have protected Alex, if he flipped Aqua I'd protect OblivionKnight.
It just made sense to me how Alex would have his interests served if he got an Aqua-ite lynched, which is also why I willingly dropped all pursuit of Alex and opted for Xanth instead.
The next day my strategy would've been to reveal I had been roleblocked night 1, telling town there is a roleblocker around. Then declare my role and activity the night before, outline why I did it, point out why I found Alex scummy again and add OK's statement of Coptitude to it and hope town'd follow that way!
Clearly I made a gross mistake in that and it might've been resolved faster had I just let OK die but man, I just didn't expect to die that night since I had been making pretty bad mistakes and people were thinking I was maybe scummy.
-
Yeah, I dropped the ball a bit. Twice when I was posting (which was late at night), hammer fell before I posted. And then day 3 ended before I got back from work (the hammer fell on day 1 and day 3 while I was making posts...gah, and day 2 I hurriedly posted in between running home and running to clinic). I got a student last minute for this rotation, which made an assload of changes to my previously thought to be free schedule. So yeah, my stupidity on that was awful, though I still stand by investigating what I did when I did.
I think the final conclusion is OK should not play mafia, since his schedule is never conducive. Oh well. It was fun to watch.
-
I was wondering why scum killed me. But now I see who was responsible and question no more.
Honestly, my enthusiasm for this game was shot the second I saw my role. Regular bus driver survivor would've been interesting. Omni-insane-whatever bus driver survivor? Really? Come on, there's no way to exploit that! My own role has a non-trivial chance of killing me and there's nothing I can do about it, as opposed to regular driver where I can at least try and second-guess scum! I have to ask why this thing existed.
I didn't have a clue whether or not snowfire was scum, and stuck with him simply because I was too lazy to come up with a real case.
-
Reading this for the first time....
There were three scum left alive on the last day, and one townie. And town won. Because it was Pokémafia, and the townie was Meeple.
In hindsight, was there any other possible outcome?
-
'Tom being Tom'? I picked out 3/4 scum on day 1, and I was pretty damn sure about Alex and Excal thankyou very much :P
- Snow's claim felt very believable because I had a similar role, and I didn't see why he would make the One-shot claim unless it was true (I didn't know at that time that most roles were one-shot).
- Tom immediately believed Snow's claim, and I was pretty sure it was for the same reason as me. So that basically cleared him for me as well. The way Alex attacked him nonetheless caught my attention as well.
That was almost it.
I was a one-shot watcher, so when I saw him claim one-shot tracker, it wasn't a big step to assume "watcher/tracker one-shot pair!"
I was pretty sure Bard was town and was going to be targetted that night (which he was, by roleblock)! Oh the irony of watching the doc protecting me get roleblocked whilst I get NKed...
Interesting game, something a bit different. It turned out to be role-madness (I'm honestly surprised town won, go Meep) but it was still fun, so GG.
-
I still want to know why on Earth you would put someone you practically had role confirmation was town at L-1.
-
Bloody hell. That was before he claimed!
Why do people believe Alex's lies, even now ;-;
Edit: And yes, I did say that in my defence, but people ignore my perfectly legitimate defences.
-
Bwahahahaha
In retrospect, with Alex having rolecopped me early and me just falling neatly in step, I could probably have sailed on to victory via scum win... Alas.
-
Because it was my "lie", Tom. If it makes you feel better, you were the only Townie that we killed for being a townie. Everyone else we killed we killed because we figured they were Team Aqua, who we figured would be the larger threat to us (oddly enough, we were right. Only OK actually caused us any inconvenience from town). As opposed to the Rolecopping, where we copped them because we figured they were Townies that wouldn't be lynched or night killed too soon. Naturally, not a one of them survived that long after our rolecopping. And Rat truly was a shame. You had better believe that Team Magma mourned Rat's passing. Even more so after we found out he was third party.
I also find it amusing that the two things that people found scummy about my behaviour were, well... things I'd have done as Town. Hell, I'd probably have been more aggressive about not lynching Alex if I had been town and not worried about being tied to him. After all, better to at least have some say over how things end than to just leave it to a night time crapshoot. Especially when the operating logic isn't Meeple's if I want to win I need to do this, but instead if the other guy wants to kill me, I'm screwed anyways. So since I can't control whether or not I win, I might as well focus on what I can control. Namely, who do I want to lose.
Snow, I can appreciate that you did find scum on Day 1. In fact, there may have been reasoning there that wasn't OMGUS. But notice the fact that even after you flipped nobody paid any attention to your arguments. Also, that the fact that you flipped Town didn't really cause any rush to look at the people you named scum either. Hell, it took a cop claim to do that, and even then the cop was seen as scummier until he actually flipped. Take a look at why people thought the way they did, and learn from that.
-
Excal: Chatted with you over IRC on this, but while I've said myself I messed up in presentation on Day 1, I'm not going to feel sorry at all about the later days. I won't make any illusions that my arguments had anything approaching a "conviction" on Day 1, I still was not entirely sure myself. Days 2, 3, and 4 were all colored by copclaims, so Day 1 arguments should have been downplayed, mine included. I do stand by my much mocked-logic about Sylon being town, though.
(Also, I can at least take some solace that only 2/6 of my voters were townies (though you've a point that had you been town, you likely would have voted me anyway).)
-
...Man. I didn't actively follow this one (just checked in on day endings/beginnings), but two scum killing each other on the final night, leaving Meeple the only survivor? That is awesome.
-
If Rat had been alive at the end, that would have been even more awesome, if a bit annoying with the randomness of course.
Also, rat, I only killed you because Xanth told me to. I wanted to kill Bard night one.
-
Why the hate, man? I've consistently protected and safe-guarded you every mafia game here and -that- is how you repay me?
godiaf
-
Every minute of this game was designed to stress me out. Given that we were supposedly 'secret', I was expecting us to be a less powerful faction than Magma, so had to maintain a really daft balance to maintain myself against both town and Magma. Kilga gets Most Awesome Person award for keeping me sane, as what really frustrated me was getting constantly hit for stuff I would have done either way (I spent most of my time scum hunting) and having my arguments ignored out of hand. I stand by every last thing I said on the matters at the time (Meeple's day 2 case on me in particular was rageworthy), and would have gone crazy by now had it not been for Kilga hitting the right buttons. I'm only surprised that the decisive blow against me (Excal rolecopping me) was from being balanced too far towards town than scum.
It's all good now. Water under the bridge and all that.
My plan for the game was always doomed to failure, as it had been for me to go down in flames relatively early on, taking a Magma member out with me if one hadn't already gone, and have Delta trained to act sufficiently well to pull out the win at the end on the basis that people overlook him far too much. Unfortunately for this plan, Delta was ill for practically the whole time and we were barely in contact enough to get the NK out in time, let alone discuss long term tactics, I didn't account for Delta's scum tells to be quite so apparent, and as well as I thought I had attached myself to Alex, who I actually suspected of being Magma a fair bit (albeit hardly sure, and I had nothing on Excal), and thought he'd go down if I did, he very neatly saw through that and axed the link directly. I'd hoped to make it to day 3 before overbalancing, but hey.
Rat: I was looking for the cop, who at that point I still expected to have multiple shots. I'd harbored really irrational beliefs that Bardiche was the cop (but not attacking anyone on the basis of a scan) that started when he used the phrase 'cop out' (I know I know I know I know) and grew in a hideous paranoid twist over the day, but convinced myself by the end of the day that it wasn't actually likely. I know you've been quieter in the last few games, but you best fit the profile I was looking for, with the off-chance that you might have been Magma as well, which tweaked it over the other choices.
Bard ninja: for what little it's worth, I never told Delta about my paranoid idea about you being cop, so his rationale is unrelated to the above (this is the first I've heard of him wanting to kill you night 1).
-
Wait, what did I do? >_>
-
I'm not actually angry, just curious.
And man I was trying to tread the thin line of feigning madness while keeping my sanity except I was majorly stressed out for the entire game until Alex was like HO STOP BREAK TIME.
Which I appreciate man because like, yeah. My family dropped a BAD NEWS BOMB right in the middle of Mafia but I was like MUST CONTINUES THE PLAYS because that's what real manly men do so my kill really worked out for me except that I had plotted and am rambling on now.
-
Well, yeah. Xanth told me to Kill you first, then switched his mind to Rat.
Bum.
-
Comp troubles are moooostly over now... I think? Maybe? Sort of?
Anyhow, good game all around, was very fun.
Town caught a lot of really bad breaks early on with no crosskills and modkills and timing and everything. The deaths really put them out of the actual gameplay, mostly. Setup wasn't kind to them either, since most people blew all their one shot abilities early on and had nothing for the lategame. Turned out not to matter, but
Aqua... well, we basically screwed ourselves out of a win by not believing Delta could really be the other Aqua, so.
OK vs me was pretty bullet-sweating all the way. He mentioned time issues, but really I think what sunk him there was tacking on the charges of me lying about shots and trying to direct Meeple. That allowed me to run a lot of hustle on him.