The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: PKNintendo on May 06, 2009, 11:45:23 PM
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Dude, how can you forget Thievery?
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I've been bugging about that for a while!
Anyway, as an explanation:
Thievery, Dragon Crest, and some other stuff maxes at 9999. If you take that at max, the others go to max. And that...well, helps Zidane, but not a huge amount. I see it and all the others maxed myself, but most people don't, since it's a very subjective thing. Average stealing by end-game is...around 4k? I always had it maxed,so... >_>
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Dude, how can you forget Thievery?
Probably something to do with it taking a long time to get to any serious power.
Though I would like a figure for what it would be like at the end of a playthrough of someone who took time to get most boss steals and any other really useful steals.
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Like me. ;D
But yeah, it isn't too bad. I mean the formula
[# of successful Steals * Zidane's Speed / 2]
So it's not all that bad. I thought it was automatically considered. (Since doing so will make him have the strongest move that has a fixed 9999 or close to that.)
For example, in my game it's around 5000 ish. If you take an hour or so, with random encounters + stealing, you can get it quite high. (I mean Soul blade is nice, but Thievery is GREAT too)
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You need to successfully steal almost 700 times over the course of the game to get Thievery to 9999. Assuming you steal thrice from every boss (since, from my memory, those were the ones with stuff actually worth stealing in FF9) and there are, say, fourty bosses over the course of the game, you've gotten roughly 1/6 of the amount of times you need to steal to reach it that high assuming stat topic endgame speed values. Assuming the numbers I just pulled out of my ass, Thievery would deal 1740 damage, which... uuuuuuhhhh... isn't very respectable. The formula is pretty bad unless you're a bonafide kleptomaniac who steals from just about every random in the game. Your mileage may vary, but I find that kind of time-wasting in randoms very unproductive and inefficient. More practical to look up a FAQ to see which monsters have which steals you'd care about.
EDIT: The point being that you'd need a rather extensive string of bosses assuming that view, and there may have been a bunch of them who didn't even have three steals (or more than one worthwhile steal). Assuming three per boss, for that to match his DL physical, the game would have to have... about one hundred bosses. That's rather a lot.
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Having recently replayed FF9, I had Thievery doing roughly 4500 end game. I think based on Zidane's Speed, that means he stole about 300 times total? Honestly don't remember.
I wasn't meticulous about stealing, mind. Zidane would mostly steal in fights where his turn wouldn't matter (ie the other 3 characters could kill everything without his help)...which is pretty often considering FF9's style, barring that section on Disc 2 where he's your only physical fighter (aka only source of MPless damage <_<.) He did have higher speed than the DL, but I think I remember compensating for that (alternatively, if Thievery WAS Zidane's primary source of damage, he could use a speed boosting weapon like Orihalcon or something.)
In any event, Thievery at best is only marginally stronger than his physical for these purposes. This isn't to say that it wouldn't be useful, mind. Thievery suddenly lets Zidane have Defense Ignoring, and can make use of more Soul Blades like The Ogre's Blind or ones that cause Sleep/Confusion cause I don't think Thievery knocks enemies out of that status, not to mention it gets Zidane around Evade and such.
Basically, Thievery being roughly even with Zidane's Physical is about the extent I'd see it in the DL, though even that would be a huge help just cause Thievery is so much more useful utility applications that a physical doesn't.
The "It wastes time on randoms" thing, as I noted, is a shaky argument though. Again, FF9 has *4* PCs, and typically, you can kill entire fights, especially second half of the game, with the other PCs. Bandit gives Zidane a 100% Steal on his first shot (so long as the enemy has a common steal), so nabbing an item isn't too tough. Also, there are some good items from randoms here and there (summon stones, Ethers, etc.) I'm not saying "YOU MUST DO THIS!" or something, just saying its more reasonable than you're giving it credit for.
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Meeple just hit my view of it perfectly.
I was a non-stealing amateur when I first played it, but I fully intend to steal extensively when I replay, and given the cool stuff you can get... yeah, I basically see it as a substitute for his physical. Could someone test whether or not it knocks people out of sleep?
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Don't think Steal itself does. Mug probably does, though.
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EDIT: haha i am stupid
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But yeah, it isn't too bad. I mean the formula
[# of successful Steals * Zidane's Speed / 2]
Just pointing out that since the formula is known, you can just calculate how many steals you need to get it to 9999. It's only 435, which is uh a lot less than 700 guys.
Going by the formula above, I've got it as 625 steals with optimum speed equips, and 690 otherwise. ._.
Not sure if I'm doing something wrong there, but if I am, I can't find it.
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Going by the formula above, I've got it as 625 steals with optimum speed equips, and 690 otherwise. ._.
Not sure if I'm doing something wrong there, but if I am, I can't find it.
Oh, you're right. I was looking at the wrong number for some reason...
I remember maxing it in my game so I figured it'd need less steals but I guess I just stole more than I thought.
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You need to successfully steal almost 700 times over the course of the game to get Thievery to 9999. Assuming you steal thrice from every boss (since, from my memory, those were the ones with stuff actually worth stealing in FF9) and there are, say, fourty bosses over the course of the game, you've gotten roughly 1/6 of the amount of times you need to steal to reach it that high assuming stat topic endgame speed values. Assuming the numbers I just pulled out of my ass, Thievery would deal 1740 damage, which... uuuuuuhhhh... isn't very respectable. The formula is pretty bad unless you're a bonafide kleptomaniac who steals from just about every random in the game. Your mileage may vary, but I find that kind of time-wasting in randoms very unproductive and inefficient. More practical to look up a FAQ to see which monsters have which steals you'd care about.
EDIT: The point being that you'd need a rather extensive string of bosses assuming that view, and there may have been a bunch of them who didn't even have three steals (or more than one worthwhile steal). Assuming three per boss, for that to match his DL physical, the game would have to have... about one hundred bosses. That's rather a lot.
This would basically be the reason I didn't include it, along with the number being ridiculously subjective (given that the damage range goes from about 2000 to 10000...well, I might see it even lower. Stealing is worth it on the early bosses, but near the end you already have better stuff). The best I could do is include the formula, which isn't very enlightening or helpful.
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Having recently replayed FF9, I had Thievery doing roughly 4500 end game. I think based on Zidane's Speed, that means he stole about 300 times total? Honestly don't remember.
I wasn't meticulous about stealing, mind. Zidane would mostly steal in fights where his turn wouldn't matter (ie the other 3 characters could kill everything without his help)...which is pretty often considering FF9's style, barring that section on Disc 2 where he's your only physical fighter (aka only source of MPless damage <_<.) He did have higher speed than the DL, but I think I remember compensating for that (alternatively, if Thievery WAS Zidane's primary source of damage, he could use a speed boosting weapon like Orihalcon or something.)
In any event, Thievery at best is only marginally stronger than his physical for these purposes. This isn't to say that it wouldn't be useful, mind. Thievery suddenly lets Zidane have Defense Ignoring, and can make use of more Soul Blades like The Ogre's Blind or ones that cause Sleep/Confusion cause I don't think Thievery knocks enemies out of that status, not to mention it gets Zidane around Evade and such.
Basically, Thievery being roughly even with Zidane's Physical is about the extent I'd see it in the DL, though even that would be a huge help just cause Thievery is so much more useful utility applications that a physical doesn't.
The "It wastes time on randoms" thing, as I noted, is a shaky argument though. Again, FF9 has *4* PCs, and typically, you can kill entire fights, especially second half of the game, with the other PCs. Bandit gives Zidane a 100% Steal on his first shot (so long as the enemy has a common steal), so nabbing an item isn't too tough. Also, there are some good items from randoms here and there (summon stones, Ethers, etc.) I'm not saying "YOU MUST DO THIS!" or something, just saying its more reasonable than you're giving it credit for.
Yeah, I had hit in the 4000's the first time I played so it's respectable.
Actually, your point is really good actually.
Of course, it would be a tad cheap/annoying if we maxed out thievery. (Dealing a fixed 9999! Ouch!)
@ Ranbou, stealing from random encounters got you some nice stuff to. For example, free tents, hi-potions (which aren't sold until mid-late Disk 2.) Annoyments, Softs, and stuff to counter what random encounters had.
But yeah, well said guys.
Here's a sad story I went through. It in Gizamuluke's grotto (sp?) I didn't buy any potions or tents, and I had to steal Hi-Potions from the enemies there. (Let's just say I had to reset alot)
and the boss was a nightmare until I had a decent amount of potions.
Well said fellows.
PS: I honestly had this fear that you banned thievery!
PS2: Haha, I would have seriously complained if Beatrix was anything short of Godlike.
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Um. Since everyone was posting here a lot, I was messing around with stuff in the stat topic (damage averages without the damage cap, etc.) and... the listed damage average is wrong. Whoever did it, because you did the 'tied for first' and had Zidane listed as number 8, divided by 8 instead of the actual cast size of 9.
The actual average should be 6902, with a kill point of 17255.
And hit me with something if I made a stupid obvious mistake.
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Beatrix isn't a permanent PC, so she doesn't get taken into the PC averages. That might be your confusion.
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Averages
Damage
1. Steiner 9999
1. Garnet 9999
3. Eiko 9730
4. Amarant 8961
5. Vivi 8761 (7921 without MP+20%)
6. Freya 5507
7. Quina 4950
8. Zidane 4212
Average: 7765 (Kill Point 19412) (7660/19150 without MP+20%)
I was using the numbers listed right here.
Unless that's the problem.
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No, what I mean is that you shouldn't have divided by 9. The cast has eight PCs, not nine. Notice how the two 1s lead into a 3 instead of a 2. There's no mistake there.
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No, what I mean is that you shouldn't have divided by 9. The cast has eight PCs, not nine. Notice how the two 1s lead into a 3 instead of a 2. There's no mistake there.
Aha! I knew it was probably my counting mistake.
Thank you.
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I noticed Zidane's power being so low. Why couldn't you at LEAST included Thievery, which also does 9999 *Conditional.
Sure it's cheap, and most people don't go for max, but I think we can scale the damage for a little over half. I'll begin to test it when I replay the game. (I won't be klepto, and still when I feel necessary= ALL bosses, and most enemies for some nifty stuff)
Did you factor Amarant's 50% throw boost magic stone
so he can max? (9999)
(Whats up with Quina's Frog Drop, it says ITD)
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Stealing from most of the random enemies would qualify as being klepto to me. >_> And he did factor in the throws. And Quina's Frog Drop is also effectively ITD, since its formula doesn't factor in enemy defense at all.
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(Whats up with Quina's Frog Drop, it says ITD)
If you don't know what ITD is it's Ignore Target Defense @_@?
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Not to be confused with "ID" which stands for "Instant Death"
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Not to be confused with "DT" which stands for "Defensive Tackle."
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Or 'delirium tremens'
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Stealing from most of the random enemies would qualify as being klepto to me. >_> And he did factor in the throws. And Quina's Frog Drop is also effectively ITD, since its formula doesn't factor in enemy defense at all.
Klepto huh?
Zidane's Thievery is also ITD. (How did you get that number anyway? The formula IIRC was Number of frogs eaten caught X Quina's lvl. How did you get that number?
How about you steal once? My brother (who by the way has called Zidane by the name of Zhako)
has him steal at least once or twice per match. He's at the ice caverns where each turn (assuming each fight is against 2 Wyerds)
Turn one. Zidane is the fastest, he steals. Most of the time he gets a potion. If Steiner's next, he attacks the Wyerd. Doesn't die. Vivi uses MT fire, and Garnet's on standbye until they use the HP switching attack.
For that ONE steal per match, you can work your way up for a good amount of damage on Thievery.
It doesn't help that Zidane attacks those Wyerd's on the first turn since Vivi+Steiner deals with them. He can attack on the final turn for the KO.
Anyway that's one example.
I mean, you should at least include Thievery on the list (Zidane being the second weakest is odd >_>)
And put it at least 4500 ITD (Again HOW did you get 4950? Is that what you got in game?)
Also it could be flipped 2 ways. Collecting to many frogs can be considered... Frogtomania.
PS: Sorry I sound a bit imposing.
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I mean, you should at least include Thievery on the list (Zidane being the second weakest is odd >_>)
And put it at least 4500 ITD (Again HOW did you get 4950? Is that what you got in game?)
Also it could be flipped 2 ways. Collecting to many frogs can be considered... Frogtomania.
PS: Sorry I sound a bit imposing.
99*50 = 4950
You need 99 frogs collect to get Gastro Fork
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*eyes discussion*
Motion to allow Eiko optimised stats based on Marcus/Eiko twinking plz? :P
;)
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Not even XD!
OH!
But yeah, catching 99 is a bit much for me. I mean, if 99 frogs is acceptable, Zidane's speed at lvl 50 and a lot of steals should be a fair equivalent.
EDIT: Right, 29 or 32. Let's say Zidane stole... 450 times throughout the course of the game.
Then it would be 450*29/2=6525.
That sounds reasonable to me. (pretty nice for ITD)
That would amount to
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OH!
But yeah, catching 99 is a bit much for me. I mean, if 99 frogs is acceptable, Zidane's speed at lvl 50 and a lot of steals should be a fair equivalent.
You are missing the point here
The stats for Quina are taken with him having the Gastro Fork, you MUST HAVE CAUGHT 99 FROGS to get the Gastro Fork :V
There's no practical reason to interpret Zidane as having a crapload of steals, because honestly, you have little reason to be having 450 steals throughout the entire game apart from item farming, which is impractical in itself for something of this nature, IMO.
EDIT: Just uhh mentioning that yeah, stealing is awesome 'n all? But again, for something of this nature, I personally wouldn't be taking it at that many... Probably less for me. Feel free to make voting on however you interpret things, just don't impose it on people. Yeah, I'm probably guilty of this posting this right now, but bawwwww. It's going to cause a ruckus >_>
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Personally I see 99 frogs as too low and 450 steals as way too high. I could get into why this is (it basically comes down to the fact that it doesn't take 4.5 times as long to eat a frog as it does to make a successful steal, or even anything particularly close, combined with my championioning of in-battle efficiency) but it's not really relevant.
THAT SAID, this isn't the point. Trance pretty much nails this. If you want to see Thievery doing 6000, that's okay. People see those moves doing different amounts of damage. The stat topic, though, is attempting to be as objective as possible. In doing so, since there's no way to peg down the damage of Thievery/Frog Drop/Dragon Crest, it has ignored the moves entirely, EXCEPT that it has assumed that you have enough frogs to get the Gastro Fork, which seems completely reasonable since that's a goal that we assume has been shot towards in getting everyone their final equipment - in other words, it is iliterally impossible for the DL Quina listed to do less than 4950 with Frog Drop. If you want to see the damage of any of these three moves higher, that's okay, all the stat topic provides is good objective minimums.
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Honestly, I don't see why you have to assume 99 frogs there. You can just allow the Fork by an extension of the Ultima clause and just use the Frog Drop damage at whatever you feel is a reasonable number of frogs to have. Similar to how we give Terra Ultima but don't use her L99 stats for it. Or for a better example, Fei's Yamikei.
For example, let's say instead of getting a Gastro Fork, you got something different, more useful, but not something Quina can even use. In that case, it would be even more worth it to get the 99 frogs, but you wouldn't necessarily assume that in the DL because it's not required for anything that helps Quina. That seems awfully silly to me.
For the record, I do think 99 frogs is fine for Quina, since it's not that hard to get.
Regarding the topic itself, I think there should at least be a LISTING of Thievery, just so people remember it exists. Just put the formula for damage instead of an actual damage figure. Then at least people can just figure out what they think is a reasonable number of steals and plug in (or if they remember their endgame damage figure, just use that). Seems like a flat out bad idea to leave off moves completely regardless.
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But wasn't that what Dhyer did? >_>
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Not initially - I think someone else listed it.
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Oh right. Nevermind.
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OH!
But yeah, catching 99 is a bit much for me. I mean, if 99 frogs is acceptable, Zidane's speed at lvl 50 and a lot of steals should be a fair equivalent.
You are missing the point here
The stats for Quina are taken with him having the Gastro Fork, you MUST HAVE CAUGHT 99 FROGS to get the Gastro Fork :V
There's no practical reason to interpret Zidane as having a crapload of steals, because honestly, you have little reason to be having 450 steals throughout the entire game apart from item farming, which is impractical in itself for something of this nature, IMO.
EDIT: Just uhh mentioning that yeah, stealing is awesome 'n all? But again, for something of this nature, I personally wouldn't be taking it at that many... Probably less for me. Feel free to make voting on however you interpret things, just don't impose it on people. Yeah, I'm probably guilty of this posting this right now, but bawwwww. It's going to cause a ruckus >_>
Oh pish posh, you can get Steiner's Excalibur 2 quite easily, why isn't THAT listed. :P
Yeah, I get the point.
THAT SAID, this isn't the point. Trance pretty much nails this. If you want to see Thievery doing 6000, that's okay. People see those moves doing different amounts of damage. The stat topic, though, is attempting to be as objective as possible. In doing so, since there's no way to peg down the damage of Thievery/Frog Drop/Dragon Crest, it has ignored the moves entirely, EXCEPT that it has assumed that you have enough frogs to get the Gastro Fork, which seems completely reasonable since that's a goal that we assume has been shot towards in getting everyone their final equipment - in other words, it is iliterally impossible for the DL Quina listed to do less than 4950 with Frog Drop. If you want to see the damage of any of these three moves higher, that's okay, all the stat topic provides is good objective minimums.
Oh okay, I gotcha.
But unfortunately, Trance doesn't nail it, since it doesn't ITD.
Alright people, Gaia fan OUT.
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That's not the point. Trance nailed the point on why Frog Drop is listed with a damage figure and why Thievery isn't. And -both- attacks are ITD anyway. Also, Excalibur 2 requires borderline speedrunning through FFIX. "Quite easy to get" is something I'd hesitate to append to that weapon, and I'm not even sure if that's even attainable in a first playthrough. Not to mention that Steiner hits the damage cap with his normal weapon anyway, so unless Excalibur 2 gives nutsy stat boosts, it's essentially irrelevant to him.
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Okay then.
>_>
Let's talk about something else...
I got nothing.
PS: I was joking about the Steiner thing.
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Just a question folks, are abilities for each character in FF9 banned or allowed? (in DL I mean.)
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If you have any questions/want to talk about the DL, go to one of the season topics there.
And skills? Everyone allows the unique crystal skills. Beyond that is certainly is arguble.
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Like Zidane's Mug, Master Thief and Protect girls?
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Yeah, a lot of Zidane's skillset isn't really workable in a duel. Soul Blade and Thievery were the only ones worth a damn in game besides basic stealing so that is not shocking. Zidane is probably a Heavy or Middle, which is pretty standard for main characters.
As far as the results page go, just nominate Zidane and try to send in writeups when he appears. Zidane does pretty well here in spite of getting beaten like a throw rug in writeups. ^_^ <-Edge fan.
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Thanks.
;-)
Eh, I'm not pissing you guys off am I? This topic got relocated (within reason) but I'm a tad worried...
Edit2: But on the other hand, I'm the new topic author!
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nah, just housekeeping affairs. Stat topics are best kept to stats, notes, and direct commentary/corrections thereof, for readability. So your original comment was sound, but the multi-page discussion thusly spawned warranted shuffling elsewhere.
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You're cool, just wanted to split it off to it's own topic. If you have any questions, ask here and we'll respond.
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This is an issue I've been wanting to bring up for a while now.
Thievery is "steals x speed / 2" Even at the stat topic levels/speed it's like 650-700 steals for max, and only about 350-400 to match or even best his physical. Most monsters have 3-4 (0-1 rare) items and with Bandit, stealing is basically 100%. The time and effort needed for this is being way overestimated.
The specific issues over time and difficulty in leveling it up aside. I'm not sure how, in a league full of celestial (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/197344/14321)/final weapon carrying, Ultima casting (Terra), monster and (secret) Aeon summoning fighters, an easily learned attack from a game with a set class skill system could cause so many people problems. It's Zidane's second best offensive attack (max damage + ITD) after Soul Blade.
But as bad as the Thievery issue is. It can't compare with that of Dragon's Crest. I mean I seriously wonder if evryone literally just forgot about Freya's best offensive skill and damage. (9999, ITD, 3HKO)
100 x number of dragons killed (by the party, not only Freya) = damage
There are at least six dragon types of monsters in the game that count as kills. A few of which are low level and literally everywhere. Plus the Grand Dragons, which are great for leveling up (35,000 exp) and are susceptible to Quina’s Lv.5 Death. (Lv. 60) So there is little reason why you wouldn't have it fully leveled and no reason for it not to be at least substantially so. (7000-8000+ and still 3HKO)
I remember having it maxed by the time I learned it, before I even knew how it worked.
Regarding the topic itself, I think there should at least be a LISTING of Thievery, just so people remember it exists. Just put the formula for damage instead of an actual damage figure. Then at least people can just figure out what they think is a reasonable number of steals and plug in (or if they remember their endgame damage figure, just use that). Seems like a flat out bad idea to leave off moves completely regardless.
I couldn't agree more.
I find it unfortunate that even though a lot of times spells and skills with no use here in the DL get listed for other games, but yet both Zidane and Freya's best attacks get left out/off completely and very few people seem to have a problem with it.
You need 99 frogs collect to get Gastro Fork
The stats for Quina are taken with him having the Gastro Fork, you MUST HAVE CAUGHT 99 FROGS to get the Gastro Fork :V
And what is it exactly that Terra has/gets for leveling up to 99? (well other than Ultima, which obviously must be purely coincidental....obviously)
There's no practical reason to interpret Zidane as having a crapload of steals, because honestly, you have little reason to be having 450 steals throughout the entire game apart from item farming, which is impractical in itself for something of this nature, IMO.
...and collecting rare items, gaining free HP and MP healing items. (especially useful when in the middle of nowhere or in a dungeon) And, oh yeah, powering up Zidane's best attack.
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Yeah, I forgot Dragon Crest... People should remember that. Hell, I had Dragon Crest hitting for over 5k without even LOOKING for dragons. (Okay Grand Dragon training, but I only killed 15ish)
Hehe, I have a question about Kuja's Ultima. Isn't, that like the best move EVER?!?
Doesn't it make him unbeatable? Of course, if they outspeed him but still...
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Yeah, I forgot Dragon Crest... People should remember that. Hell, I had Dragon Crest hitting for over 5k without even LOOKING for dragons. (Okay Grand Dragon training, but I only killed 15ish)
Hehe, I have a question about Kuja's Ultima. Isn't, that like the best move EVER?!?
Doesn't it make him unbeatable? Of course, if they outspeed him but still...
That Ultima is a scripted plot event, not an actual attack, according to unanimous consensus.
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Oh, makes sense. XD he would be ridiculous with it.
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Post-endgame skills get 'grandfathered in' to me due to my views on uniqueness. Terra gets Ultima. Fei gets Yamikei. The entire cast of Golden Sun deals average damage. Helps some, hurts others.
Terra and Fei are not being viewed as actually levelled past normal endgame levels, they were just gifted with these skills a few levels early, and scaled as such.
Freya and Zidane are certainly allowed to use Dragon's Crest and Thievery to me, but they don't get special treatment by having the skills levelled past 'endgame levels'.
That said, I certainly think that a certain level of Dragon Kills and Successful Steals be allowed, similar to SO/Tales/Grandia characters getting levelled-through-use skills to me. Not max level, but something reasonable like 50% (or whatever seems reasonable based on in-game numbers).
Alternately, if you want to look at uniqueness a slightly different way: Quina's frog catch is something only Quina can do - unique. Allow it to max. Zidane is the only PC that can Steal. Unique, allow it to max. Freya is -not- the only character who can kill Dragons. No credit. *shrugs*
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As I recall, the real reason why those moves aren't seen as maxed is because it utterly kills the damage curve since then half the cast does 10k damage, and two other members aren't that far behind. Which also means that 10k damage isn't worth anything. It's slightly above average damage that will still tend to 3HKO average durability. So, um, yay? You've found a way to ensure that FF9 has no one with impressive damage in the PC cast?
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Djinn, that's kind of the point. Post-endgame skills are just allowed in like that, but the levels/grinding needed to GET those skills are generally ignored. There's no reason that this shouldn't apply to Quina's fork, so Quina does not have to have those 99 frogs for this reason (though he can still have them for other reasons such as it "being reasonable").
To Excal: I've always been annoyed with the idea of banning or nerfing skills because... it makes the other people in the cast look better. If you allow max skills, then just allow them. Don't ban them because it makes everyone else suck. That's just silly.
Of course, there are other more reasonable reasons to not allow them at max, so it's kind of moot, but that's not a very good one.
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It's less that it makes everyone suck, and more that there's no curve. You have half the cast that's doing the exact same damage. Take those skills out, or find ways to reasonably ground them (ie. tie Frog Drop to Gastro Fork levels) and you get yourself a nice curve which is far more interesting.
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You don't actually fight that many dragons enemy just running through FF 9 normally (maybe 20-30, and 30 doesn't even break 1000 since it's not 100*Dragons Killed, it's Dragons Killed Squared). However, Dragon Crest is fairly twinkable (But...you really have to start Dragon hunting to make it matter by the same token). It's certainly more respectable than Thievery, but Dragon Crest again isn't in the topic since I can't think of any proper baseline for it. And yes, Grand Dragons are awesome for EXP! And for powerlevelling, which we don't consider.
On the note of time for stealing...yes, 300 steals is a lot. FF 9 is sloooow. Assuming stealing takes 10 seconds, you are looking at adding on near an hour of game time just to get in all of steals, most of which aren't really worth it. Sure, you can steal lots of Hi-Potions, and use them to heal! But...you don't really need them at all. So basically, you are just running around stealing to raise Thievery, which is just powerbuilding.
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On the note of time for stealing...yes, 300 steals is a lot. FF 9 is sloooow. Assuming stealing takes 10 seconds, you are looking at adding on near an hour of game time just to get in all of steals, most of which aren't really worth it. Sure, you can steal lots of Hi-Potions, and use them to heal! But...you don't really need them at all. So basically, you are just running around stealing to raise Thievery, which is just powerbuilding.
I feel silly for being an in-game kleptomaniac then. As said earlier, a lot of the time, Zidane's turn is going to be worthless, so might as well have him steal... But for sake of argument, stealing is a skill allowed by a few temps (Blank being in for two bosses and a small section of forest, Cinna for one boss, and Marcus with Garnet for when it wouldn't make sense for her to have Zidane... But by and large, no matter where you are in the game - with exception to that place after the No Magic Allowed clause and MAYBE some of Terra - you ALWAYS have at least one thief in your party).
'Sides, with that last note... You almost make it sound like semi-speedrunning the game is the only way to go for stats.
On a completely random note...
Post-endgame skills get 'grandfathered in' to me due to my views on uniqueness. Terra gets Ultima. Fei gets Yamikei. The entire cast of Golden Sun deals average damage. Helps some, hurts others.
Terra and Fei are not being viewed as actually levelled past normal endgame levels, they were just gifted with these skills a few levels early, and scaled as such.
Terra might lose that Ultima, because I have an FF6-nuttish friend who claims that due to a bug in the game's programming, all characters learn Ultima at level 99. I have no idea if it's true, though (I do NOT have that kind of patience).
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Oh yeah, I forgot that Blank and Cinna could Steal, too. Guess it's not unique to Zidane after all. No arguments for max steals anymore... not even joking ones.
Pretty sure it's only Terra.
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Oh yeah, I forgot that Blank and Cinna could Steal, too. Guess it's not unique to Zidane after all. No arguments for max steals anymore... not even joking ones.
Pretty sure it's only Terra.
Probably a good thing I don't count barely-there temps against a permanent party member for purposes of uniqueness.
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I dunno if the temps' Steal even boosts Thievery or not.
'Sides, with that last note... You almost make it sound like semi-speedrunning the game is the only way to go for stats.
And you make it sound like having Zidane do nothing but steal is the only way to go, despite the fact that this makes battles take 33% longer.
Generally speaking we shy away from pure building. Collecting a finite number of things is usually seen as okay even if it takes time (see FFX celestial weapons), but building up a limitless number less so. "What's reasonable to get without stopping to really grind for this" seems fair to aim for, otherwise all these things end up maxed when, using the same time, you could just level everyone to 70-80 (at which point I imagine a number of other characters would join the 9999 club... possibly even everyone!).
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Zidane's base physical is even averagish damage for a decently long while. FF 9's damage average explodes in disk 3. Per by boss topic notes, you start with about 1500 damage average on disk 3. By the end of the disk, it's more like 6000. So most of the game, Zidane's base physical (Which you can boost with Slayer skills if appropriate, and maybe some skill to make it use MP and do more damage? Don't remember there) isn't that bad damage, and certainly not a wasted turn.
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I dunno if the temps' Steal even boosts Thievery or not.
'Sides, with that last note... You almost make it sound like semi-speedrunning the game is the only way to go for stats.
And you make it sound like having Zidane do nothing but steal is the only way to go, despite the fact that this makes battles take 33% longer.
Generally speaking we shy away from pure building. Collecting a finite number of things is usually seen as okay even if it takes time (see FFX celestial weapons), but building up a limitless number less so. "What's reasonable to get without stopping to really grind for this" seems fair to aim for, otherwise all these things end up maxed when, using the same time, you could just level everyone to 70-80 (at which point I imagine a number of other characters would join the 9999 club... possibly even everyone!).
The Mark/Blank/Cinna trio count towards your steal ratio.
XD
Steiner: Hey cretin, what are you doing?
Marcus: Stealing to boost Thievery, just because I suck, doesn't mean Zidane has too.
Steiner: QGBDIPAHOIDH (aka, Steiner spazzing)
Hey Dhyerwolf, don't forget that at the point of Disk 3 where his power explodes, your team gets pretty powerful, to the point that there's NO point in Zidane attacking. I mean your 3/4 members do it fine.
PS: How can you ban Terra's ultima if other's can get it via glitch? That's a bit much don't ya think?
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You're misinformed, no glitch that gives other characters Ultima via levels exists.
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On the note of time for stealing...yes, 300 steals is a lot. FF 9 is sloooow. Assuming stealing takes 10 seconds, you are looking at adding on near an hour of game time just to get in all of steals, most of which aren't really worth it. Sure, you can steal lots of Hi-Potions, and use them to heal! But...you don't really need them at all. So basically, you are just running around stealing to raise Thievery, which is just powerbuilding.
I don't think it's so much wasting a turn, but more so using a turn productively. Assuming you can kill all the enemies without requiring Zidane to attack (which happens fairly often, especially when Steiner, Freya or Amarant are present), Zidane can Steal, which has far more benefits than powerbuilding Thievery. Something that disappears pretty fast in FF9 is money, especially if you hang on to old equipment for synthesis purposes, so that crap that you steal can pay off. Ores are what, 150 gil a pop? Over half of enemies in FF9 can be stolen an Ore from (I think?), among other, even pricier items (Ethers? Phoenix Pinions?).
This is just my two cents, and I don't expect to change your opinion on the matter. I'm just stating the validity behind why I believe Thievery could be fairly considered to be stronger than his physical.
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I don't think it's so much wasting a turn, but more so using a turn productively
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Eh, that depends. If your ATB turn order is Zidane <-- Freya <-- Amarant <-- Enemies <--Steiner, I would not wait for Steiner and just make Zidane attack. Especially if he can also kill the enemy. If you also need a certain party formation for that to happen, I wouldn't count it as productive since you effectively lock out other potential party members in favour of Zidane stealing (which is an evidence bias towards power levelling but hey!).
Not to mention in game, you can twink Zidane's physical to the point where he effectively keeps up with other party members. Killer skill + MP Crit.
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Which is more mileage for your Zidane offense on average than Thievery twinking for a lot less effort.
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I don't think it's so much wasting a turn, but more so using a turn productively
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Eh, that depends. If your ATB turn order is Zidane <-- Freya <-- Amarant <-- Enemies <--Steiner, I would not wait for Steiner and just make Zidane attack. Especially if he can also kill the enemy. If you also need a certain party formation for that to happen, I wouldn't count it as productive since you effectively lock out other potential party members in favour of Zidane stealing (which is an evidence bias towards power levelling but hey!).
Not to mention in game, you can twink Zidane's physical to the point where he effectively keeps up with other party members. Killer skill + MP Crit.
True enough, Zidane'll usually go before the others, but startomg ATB can make Steiner, Amarant or Freya go before him. But that's getting finnicky, the point being that stealing is a perfectly valid substitute to attacking.
Twinking can only happen for so long. Once Zidane's MP runs out (which won't take long, with his ridiculously low score), he's back to damage that can't compare to the others. And Killer abilities are touchy. You're not gonna spend all your points on Killer abilities, and even then, they only target certain enemies, so twinking is a bit more complex for anyone in that respect.
EDIT: To snow, I have to add that it wouldn't necessary to steal on EVERY single battle. 300 shouldn't take too, too long, honestly.
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But it sorta does. Steal is an inaccurate command (until lateish game with crystal skills) that deals either no damage or terrible damage (and that's with the skills!) and the game only counts successful steals towards the Thievery count, and using it in randoms at all is honestly counter-productive, since you have good enough odds of having it do nothing and then you wasted an entire fight trying to steal. I honestly can't see why would Thievery grinding be more efficient than just intelligent twinking, but that's just a show on how Zidane was sorta poorly designed in FF9: they overestimated the worth of Steal even with the many steps they took to make it worth your time.
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Well, your points are valid, too. Steal indeed doesn't become surefire 'til you get Bandit. I'll leave it that, I guess. Just felt like pitching in the issue.
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I think i should note that Zidane's physical in game is CONSISTENTLY good damage after a point. He gets MP Attack reasonably early, and his weapons are always upper end, backed up with his good strength (and spirit for Thief Swords.) MP Attack does not use much MP, in honesty, and you can use Tents in battle if you were so fearing him running out. Furthermore, slayer skills exist too and they help a bunch knowing which to use (Bird Killer should ALWAYS be used for example; hits every single flying enemy in the game, for example.) Some mirco-management is involved of course (need to know what you're going to face each dungeon, but you can adapt that pretty quickly), but yeah.
Not hard to get Zidane hurling 9k damage physicals end game.
In this respect, the DL does ims-represent Zidane one way or another. If you let him have twinked thievery, then it badly imsrepresents his Physical vs. Thievery scenario, cause his physical is much easier to boost and keep up at high damage in game than Thievery. Flipside, Zidane being bottom of the barrel on damage is also just misrepresenting cause in game, for a number of reasons, he had damage.
Sadly, the DL does not translate everyone properly. People like Steiner and Dagger translate well due to their nature, but then Zidane doesn't translate well cause of just how cards play. The one condolence he has is that Soul Blade is a lot more useful in the DL than in game (rarely did a useful status exist on Zidane's optimal weapon in game), such like Masamune's Doom actually gets consistent use in the DL, being able to kick in before Zidane can kill with damage. In game, that'll almost NEVER occur, unless your team was incredibly offensively inept (nevermind how late Zidane gets Masamune too...)
Zidane might not translate, but at least he's not as bad off as, say, FF6 Relm, who was 100% reliant on the Esper System to be worth something in FF6, and she wasn't half bad there, but in the DL, she's pretty much a text book light.
Some characters translate, others do not. Zidane's just an example of someone who doesn't really translate at all, in the sense of being like his In Game self. In game, he's one of your best physical damage dealers throughout the course of the game, and a potentially obscene boss slayer for about 80% of the game if Trance kicks in. DL, he's a pure status whore, for the most part.
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Well, your points are valid, too. Steal indeed doesn't become surefire 'til you get Bandit. I'll leave it that, I guess. Just felt like pitching in the issue.
But isn't bandit gotten EARLY?
Some characters translate, others do not. Zidane's just an example of someone who doesn't really translate at all, in the sense of being like his In Game self. In game, he's one of your best physical damage dealers throughout the course of the game, and a potentially obscene boss slayer for about 80% of the game if Trance kicks in. DL, he's a pure status whore, for the most part.
I don't know, but that sounds negative to me. But isn't being a status a good thing? I mean, I can safely say that Zidane will outplay Steiner. While Steiner bashes his foes to submission, Zidane can strategically deal with his foes.
PS: Zidane's base for Str is stronger than Steiner and Freya. XD
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The problem with Zidane's status game is that he's not all that versatile about it. He has one status, period, that he has to pick before going in. And if that gets spoiled, then he's toast.
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Steiner's pretty well established to be the best dueller of the core FF9 PCs. Tin Armour combined with his party-best HP gives him a lot of durability, and he's got as much damage as an FF9 PC can have. He's still not amazing, but he's made the Heavy finals once with a good draw. A really low damage:durability view of the DL would make Zidane better though. Although then I think Garnet would take over as the best dueller, status + healing beats just status.
Also, Steiner has more STR than Zidane. Not that it matters, since weapon power dominates STR, and at several points Zidane has better weapons.
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But isn't bandit gotten EARLY?
It's not just the time it is available; it's also the crystals you have to sacrifice to equip it. In any case, the crystal cost IIRC was 3 points, which is pretty tame. But it does mean that early on when you can't adjust your physical as much, you still might not have the points to use it. And later on, your physical twinking options might be more open so spending 3 points for it might not be worth it. YMMV there. But I'll note that personally, I never used Bandit on subsequent replays since I stole mainly from bosses.
I don't know, but that sounds negative to me. But isn't being a status a good thing? I mean, I can safely say that Zidane will outplay Steiner. While Steiner bashes his foes to submission, Zidane can strategically deal with his foes.
Problem with Zidane's status is what Excal said. He is effectively locked into one status a match, despite the fact that he does have several types available. Contrast this with say Beowulf, and you can see how this hurts Zidane's duelling worth. It gets even worse since most people allow at least one status blocker. If they can block a crippling status like say Mini, Zidane is basically forced to outslug. And thanks to the high damage average of end game in FF9 (6000 or something), it means almost he inevitably loses if it comes down to this since his raw staying power and damage are not that far above average. This is how Zidane loses to someone like Luca Blight despite stopping most of Luca's tricks with Soul Blade and fire resisting equipment. He has a couple of things going for him (speed + FF9 equips for example), but yeah for the most part Zidane doesn't translate well. However? He still owns the FF8 cast.
PS: Zidane's base for Str is stronger than Steiner and Freya. XD
FF9 damage is actually largely determined by weapon power as NEB alluded to. This is actually how a level 1 game is possible! >_> <_<
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Having one of his statuses effectively check ID immunity helps with status protection though. Also, if you let Mini hit Luca, Zidane kind of breezes through the match.
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HP is directly affected by a character's Strength Stat; this is why raising Strength on a Mage is not a stupid idea (similarly, Magic affects MP Growth, so raising that for a Fighter serves a purpose.) IIRC, Zidane's base strength is 4th highest in the game, but due to FF9 stat nonsense, and how Freya is only marginally better, Zidane ends up being #2 in practice; Steiner should always beat him, being available early, and game best strength and all that.
Zidane does have game best spirit, though, which is worth noting when comparing to Steiner as both their best weapons use that as part of the damage equation. I think they both end up getting roughly the same damage mult from their stats, so weapons are what matter most, and Zidane has easily the strongest weapon in the game by far outside of Excalibur II. In Steiner's Credit, though, I believe Excalibur + Holy Strengthen ends up very similar to Zidane using Ultima Weapon, so they're roughly equal, with Zidane winning against higher defense (due to how the numbers work), and Steiner winning against Holy weak targets. This only matters in game, mind, cause DL Steiner should just be hurling Shock. In game, Shock's MP cost makes it actually restrictive (he can fire off like 3 shots before needing to recharge), so being able to opt for a Physical that can be twinked for 9k~ damage costing only 10~ MP (due to MP attack) over Shock's 60 or whatever is a big deal.
In any event, yeah, of the main PC cast, Steiner's probably the best, cause he's just well built for duels. Offhand, only Garnet really has an argument over him, I'd say, trading in a lot of durability for healing and (unreliable status), and a little higher speed (though the Durability should offset for all slug fest concerns.) Oh, she also can resist Holy, the one element Steiner CAN'T resist, IIRC. Steiner probably comes out ahead, since the durability edge is just that massive, with Tin Armor + Game Best HP, enough to offset all of Garnet's advantages. He even has Limit Parasitic Healing! *ignores how Blood Sword is crap*
Zidane isn't totally helpless in the DL, but he doesn't translate well despite being a good PC in game. Again, its just a case of where someone could take advantage of the game's system rather well, and become effective in game, but in the DL, most of those factors become illegal for one reason or another, and he gets slammed hard for that reason. A variety of games have a character like this, Zidane just happens to be FF9's example.
And...
Regarding Zidane vs. Luca, FF9 Blind is pretty damn good, so if you give Zidane a Thievery that's anywhere remotely close to his physical, he should be able to beat Luca with The Ogre Soul Blade + Fire Immunity <_< >_>
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Well I was trying to find a match where it kind of highlights the problems of Zidane being forced to slugfest. But running on 4.5 hours sleep is probably not the best idea >_>. Anyways, I should've clarified the assumptions there. But yes, there are some ways of interperating that fight to let him win.
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Random question - anyone have the stats and numbers for Excalibre II for Steiner? Granted, I think I'm the only one that allows it, but hey, unique is unique >_>
How much would that help him in the DL, off-hand?
Hell, maybe I'll go grab stats for it myself >_>
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Considering Steiner hits the damage cap already... absolutely nothing!
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For those who ignore damage caps unless they are explicitly designed to have specific parametres required for breaking them (FFX), like me.
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Steiner's damage with Excalibur II should be easy to figure out. Just find its stats somewhere (I think its 107?) and look at the BMG.
Damage in FF9 is like Stat modifier * (Level + Attack - Defense) In the case of Shock specifically, the stat is Strength, and Attack = Weapon * 3. 10 is pretty much the universal defense score in FF9, barring the tank enemies, so just use that. This would be the MINIMUm damage, mind; I can't remember exactly how FF9 does random variance. I think level is 50 for the stat topic?
I THINK its Stat...Stat+(Level/8), so I guess Stat+Level/16 for average damage.
Think that should explain things well enough.
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K im back... So Zidane isn't the best? Rusty is? Well isn't that a surprise.
And how can Luca block mini? Does he EVEN have that?
I don't even think you CAN block mini? Anyway, Zidane may not be the best, he isn't *translated* well, but I'll make sure to make his career in DL (as a heavy) a good one. With the help of you guys of course. XD
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K im back... So Zidane isn't the best? Rusty is? Well isn't that a surprise.
And how can Luca block mini? Does he EVEN have that?
I don't even think you CAN block mini? Anyway, Zidane may not be the best, he isn't *translated* well, but I'll make sure to make his career in DL (as a heavy) a good one. With the help of you guys of course. XD
It's a case of bosses being immune to status effects.
Except that I guess Luca isn't immune to all of them, so it comes down to "He's vulnerable to some, but immune to all others" or "He's immune to some, but vulnerable to all others".
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I don't think I would see Mini working on him myself. Only really low tier status hits him in game.
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Luca's vulnerable to "lesser" status like Silence and Blind. Basically things that screw with you, but not majorly.
He's not vulnerable to major status effects like Paralysis, Stone, Instant Death, etc. Things that will outright DESTROY you, IOWs.
Mini...is debatable where it falls. I mean, it completely reems fighters, but Mages aren't effected that much (well, actually, I think FF9's Mini DID hurt Mages, unlike FF3/4/5/7's version.) Suiko 2 lacking any remote equivalent (the fact that FF games traditionally have blind means its clearly not just a replacement status scenario too, especially since in older games, Mini would kill your defensive stats too) makes the scenario very much a YMMV.
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DEFINITELY not agreeing with bosses getting free status immunities that they don't get in game while PCs are always screwed on this. As far as I'm concerned, Luca gets hit by any status he doesn't explicitly block in-game, which includes Mini.
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Hehe I have a feeling Zidane will face Luca... XD
There is no mini status in Luca's game, so shouldn't that mean he gets affected by it? I mean we can't really assume he can't of course... But he does resist the big ones...
Damn.
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Like I said, I don't think anyone is argue against the likes of Blind, Slow, Silence, Poison, among other clearly minor status hitting him, be in S2 or not. Flipside, people obviously won't see crap like Petrify or Instant Death hitting him. Mini, however, is somewhat a grey area, cause its more drastic than "minor" status, but not as harmful as major status. Like I said, a huge "YMMV" scenario.
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What's YMMV? :o
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Your Milleage May Vary.