The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => Tournaments => Topic started by: DjinnAndTonic on June 01, 2009, 06:45:08 AM
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First, our somewhat lopsided results from last week!
Lugia vs. Johnny 1-8
Dart vs. Guv 11-1
Lucia vs. Dante 4-3
Aya vs. Ryu3 1-10
Reis vs. Argilla 0-10
Geno vs. Flik 11-1
Hugo vs. Tear 10-0
Edgar vs. Cecelia 1-13 (what? No Esper hype?)
Dryst vs. Umaro 9-1
Deneb vs. Juan 10-0
Elena vs. Zelos 1-11
Seth vs. Garet 5-9
Tia vs. Bacon 0-14
Leena vs. Margie 7-6
Alfred vs. Lulu 14-0
Poco vs. Lute 6-2
Looks like we had some huge blowouts in Light. 14-0 is pretty clear. Closest match was Margie vs. Leena. Understandable, I suppose. Dante gives Lucia a run for her money! Can anything stop her?!
Please vote for who you think would win in a match based on plot powers/logic. Typically voting on endgame forms here, but you may take a duelist at the peak of their power if you prefer. If you don't know a duelist very well, you may still vote on them if you take some time to research their plot powers, I suppose.
This week ended up with a lot more NR games than last week, hopefully people can still vote here.
Keep in mind that plot power is very subjective so rankings are not yet perfect. I tried. If you have suggestions for where characters should be ranked, please let me know for future Plot Power Tourneys!
Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5)
X (MMXCM) vs. Mother Brain (PS2)
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs)
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF)
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3)
Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG)
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3)
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5)
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5)
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR)
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM)
Rita Mordio (ToV) vs. Fran (FF12)
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1)
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG)
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2)
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1)
Skye is Ryudo's talking pet hawk in case you forgot. Yes.
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Godlike:
X (MMXCM) vs. Mother Brain (PS2)- I don't remember X's plot power much, but gut reaction.
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF)- Not close.
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5)
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR)- Both an experts of some kind of technology! Jessica's bag feels like a tipper though.
Light:
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG)- Isn't just constant kidnap bait.
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2)- Can carry far more than his weight/can't remember one thing about Lowe.
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1)- Making an army near invincible by singing = not Light.
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Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5) - Honestly, power of a minor god vs. spiffy vampire feels like a one-sided fight, but I've never seen Alucard, period, so I'll stay out of this.
X (MMXCM) vs. Mother Brain (PS2) - In charge of entire solar system, including the authority to send robots to hunt down rebels. As such, instead of fighting Mother Brain, X is more likely to try and take out Maverick Lansdale and co.
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs) - Who what?
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF) - Silmeria? Oh, right, the scrub Valkyrie.
Heavy:
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5) - Superior Beastman
Middle:
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR) - Sure, Rikku can steal stuff and then make weapons/machina out of it. But Jess never runs out of stuff, and she has the whole weaponizing her stuff schtick too. So, endless resources for the win here.
Light:
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG) - Only gets kidnapped once.
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2) - Can carry more that he ought to be able to.
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1) - Yeah, invincible songstress works for me.
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First off - do you mean MIST for Fire Emblem 9? Seems pretty strong for Light regardless...
Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5) - Zerase is ancient and powerful but also mostly unknown. Hard to assess her. (Alucard has a lot more solid hardcore hype here.) If Zerase had the Sun/Dawn/Twilight Rune, I'd say she spoils, but the Night-based Star? Close but no cigar.
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs) - Can Raidou time travel? If he can't, Ultimecia gets a free win here. (She may be in trouble next round, though.)
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF) - I don't need to play SF2 to know that Silmeria is the worst Valkyrie, by a lot.
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3) - Beatrice is a dream demon. Alundra's JOB is basically running around inside dreams saving people from dream demons. Um yeah.
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3) - The last thread was discussing how Guv summoning monsters generally isn't helpful since your average hero shreds monsters no problem. The problem here is that Sarah summons up literal armies of monsters that require hordes of heroes to control. Prier's good, and can probably set up some Miracle to wipe a bunch out at once, but determination is only taking Prier so far here. Still ends up rather close.
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5) - Cursed vs. not cursed.
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1) - Depends on how much I respect the Dog's intelligence. If it's remotely similar Hanpan gets chewed up. If Hanpan is smart enough than he lures the Dog into a trap somehow.
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG) - Isn't kidnap bait, been said. Also should be pointed out that Mist (if this is Mist) is super-special pure and awesome and can wear the super medallion without going crazy by neutralizing it with her great reserves of order or something.
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1) - Well, Shiho is blind. How does she know where to aim her spells? Is Lenneth directing her? ...probably wins this one regardless, though.
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Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5): My memory of Alucard is admittedly poor, so Star Rune hype carries the day here. She's not too impressive though, so eh.
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3): Beatrice is massively crafty and manipulative and I would see her ripping most Heavies apart. I only played a few hours of Alundra so maybe I should abstain but on the other hand this could be considered a "get the fuck out" vote to Alundra and his vote draw.
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5): Neither impresses terribly, but Kevin's werewolf form can certainly pack a punch.
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5): Military training vs. circus training.
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR): I think.
Light:
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG): Peach varies from laughably worthless to fairly competent (she has her moments in Mario RPG). Mint is pretty damn incompetent at anything besides healing plotwise. Frying pan > Mist's pathetically weak swordsmanship (can't bring myself to hype the Sonic Sword here).
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2): Is the remnants of Granas' soul.
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1): Plotwise Shiho doesn't have "lol mp spells" holding her back. So... minor deity can knock some heads in Light. Pretty much think every VP1 PC except maaaybe Llewelyn swings Middle.
A lot more obscura this week.
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Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5)- I dunno, not sold on Star being a particularly impressive Rune plotwise. Alucard gets inconsistent hype later in the timeline, so eh gut.
X (MMXCM) vs. Mother Brain (PS2)
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs)
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF)
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3)
Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG)
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3)- Snowfire brings up a fair point, but on the other hand Prier stikes me as spoiling Sarah a bit. She's pretty resistant to illusions, and she can handle monster hoards well enough to attack Sarah directly before she recovers from the effort of it (She's pretty helpless after her antics in C4, as I recall). In a straight fight Prier's just too gun-ho for Sarah to get a shot off, I suspect.
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5)
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5)- Rebecca's enough of a sharpshooter that I could kinda see sniping hype for her but... it's completely alien to her personality, so military training for the win.
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR)- The bag.
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM)- Haven't played Earthbound but... well, I know Paula's a psychic of some flavor, so she has something.
Namine is effectively a negative in plot terms. She basically shouldn't exist, so in real-world setting she's ethereal, borderline intangible. her memory powers are a direct result of how she came into being from my understanding, and thus only affect the Sora/Riku/Kairi trio. Sooo yeah, Namine for Puny!
Rita Mordio (ToV) vs. Fran (FF12)- No vote.
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1)
Mist (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG)- Eh, underdog vote.
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2)
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1)- I'm somehow tempted to take Shiho back when she was alive, where she's fundamentally powerless (her battle song thing basically induced Berserker Rage. She herself was frail and killing her is how the enemy won the war!) Buuuut... nah, probably unfair.
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Godlike:
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF) - Easy.
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3) - Hi Beatrice. Have you met Alundra and his Spirit Wand? He also wants to introduce you to his elemental books.
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5) - Random cursed human vs. strongest beastman's son. Hm.
Middle:
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM) - Paula's power is psychic abilities... But she's also unique in that she's the only one to have fire come out of her fingertips. BURN BABY, BURN!
Rita Mordio (ToV) vs. Fran (FF12) - This seems low for Rita, from what I've seen of Fran.
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1) - Dog's competent, but not as good as Hanpan... But Hanpan has no plot power other than flying over gaps. I think Dog... Can hover around all he likes. Hm.
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG) - SHE CAN MAKE IT RAIN BOMBS. How does she lose with this?
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Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG) - SHE CAN MAKE IT RAIN BOMBS. How does she lose with this?
Only one I can vote on~
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Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5) - Alucard. Star Rune ain't not frue rune, unless I remember S5 plot incorrectly >_>
X (MMXCM) vs. Mother Brain (PS2) - ...think both of these don't belong here >_> And honestly...neither of them are particularly special here. And similar. Mother probably - X is more of a mercenary of sorts, while Mother is the controller of a star system effectively, and blew up a planet.
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs) - Mmm...Raidou. Has a super kitty. Otherwise, both of them are family lines of power, but Devil Summoning is regarded in a much higher tier than magic.
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF) - Silmeria. Is a Valkyrie that can inhabit people. And has a bow.
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3) - ...I don't have a good memory of Alundra. From what I do remember...Beatrice.
Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG) - Axel.
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3) - Sarah. Alouette maybe would take this. Sarah, unfortunately, does not have testicles to kick.
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5) - ...mmm...really, not too interested here. Go Ernst - cursed, but can transform without the aid of the moon.
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5) - Ursula ;_;
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR) - Rikku. Jessica is sick and has a bag...honestly, she isn't particularly high on plot power that I remember. Rikku has science and DRESSING CHANGES on her side, at least. And daughter of CID.
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM) - Uh...mmm....damn, my memory is fading with time. Namine.
Rita Mordio (ToV) vs. Fran (FF12) - RITA.
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1) - Dog. Has gameplay back-up too.
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG) - Mint (assuming it's Mist).
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2) - Skye. CAN PICK UP GODS AND DROP THEM ON THE GROUND!!!!!
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1) - Nina. Crazed schoolgirl stalker is at least Heavy.
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Yeah, it's been said... but the FE9 "Mint" is supposed to be "Mist"....
Whoops. I'm not having much luck with names these days...
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Not voting just yet, but I'm assuming that no one's giving Rebecca any Medium hype.
Same as Edgar not getting Esper hype.
This should be noted for future tourneys.
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Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5)- More direct proof of his powers.
X (MMXCM) vs. Mother Brain (PS2)
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF)- About as close as the DL fighjt between the two would be.
Heavy:
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5)- Ernst's rune is exceptionally strong. The big problems with his curse are related to how it affects his life in such a negative fashion, more than anything related to combat.
Middle:
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR)
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1)= Hanpan's smart but has almost no direct combat skills of any type backing that up.
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1)
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Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5)
X (MMXCM) vs. Mother Brain (PS2)
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs)
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF): Simple enough.
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3): Yeah, Alundra's specialty is kicking dream demon ass. Though Beatrice is higher than your average dream demon, she's still his prey.
Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG): I think she's deadly enough for this.
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3): Churchgirl Prier may not stand much of a chance against Sarah's monster hordes, but Demon Lord Prier will just rip right through them.
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5): I guess I'll just follow Super, though I don't remember where Ernst gets any kind of plot hype.
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5): Military > Circus.
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR): Explicitly blows shit up. A lot.
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM): Namine is a very passive figure. Paula actually fights.
Rita Mordio (ToV) vs. Fran (FF12): Rita belongs in Heavy. She single-handedly sends an entire regiment of armed and armored soldiers running for their lives at one point. Fran's berserk thing is cool but uh yeah not near Rita for insanity.
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1): Dog is powerful.
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG): Mist weilds a deadly weapon and is special enough to last through the great stoning.
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2): Picks him up and drops him, sure.
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1): Shiho is never shown to do anything but sing passively in plot.
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Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5) - Don't know much of Alucard, but enough of Zerase to know she doesn't really belong. Her powers aren't really shown aside from losing to Sialeeds when Sialeeds is wielding the Twilight Rune. That sort of nails her as being weaker.
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs) - Timewarps Raidou.
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3)
Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG) - Beh, Axel.
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3)
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5)
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5) - Her acrobatic shooting is impressive enough to think she can nail Ursula.
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR) - Pulls Muppy from her bag, has him blast Rikku. Good enough!
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM) - lolnaminé
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1)
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1) - Suikoden Nina has... plot powers...?
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Godlike:
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF) - Sounds about right, despite my never having played VP2.
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3) - Dream demon vs. Guy who goes into peoples dreams and sorts out their crap. Yeah, this'll go over reeeeeal well.
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1) - Is a laser shooting toaster in the future. A LASER SHOOTING TOASTER.
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1) - Shiho sings and does nothing else of note (well, aside from dying). And is never shown to be anything other than completely helpless.
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Ernst's rune is exceptionally strong.
When is this stated? I'm not trying to be confrontational; I honestly can't recall Ernst getting any plot hype at all.
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Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5): Kneejerk that Dracula's Half Human son is more powerful than an exceptional Suikomage who does NOT have a True Rune offhand.
X (MMXCM) vs. Mother Brain (PS2): X has beaten Sigma *HOW* many times? And Sigma is not much different from Mother Brain. This is basically the exact kind of fight X was designed for.
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs): Can't vote.
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF): Silmeria isn't particularly strong by the standards of the Gods; again, the Valkyrie were mere Mid Level Gods after all. Someone who controls and manipulates time, meanwhile...yeah.
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3): Can't vote.
Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG): Axl does one thing of plot worth noting...and it takes his life. I'm going with Nano machine freak of nature over that.
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3): I don't remember Prier having any REAL plot power, she was just kind of driven to kick some ass. Sarah at least displays strong magic in plot.
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5): Kevin is suppose to be one of the strongest fighters in the Beast Kingdom *BEFORE* the whole Mana nonsense. After...yeah. He's not as strong as his dad, sure, but the fact that Lugar had this massive inferiority complex to him even when Kevin couldn't transform into a werewolf should say everything.
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5): Ursula's a ranked officer, which implies she's got a fair amount of experience. Rebecca's...nothing particularly special. I suppose she can use Mediums, but eh, those only get so much hype in WA5.
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR): Jessica has Mana and such backing her up, Rikku has...pretty much nothing but Grenades...which Jessica can probably pull out of her bag ON THE SPOT.
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM): Both these characters are pretty pathetic when it comes to fighting. Paula's abilities are primarily telepathy and such in plot, Namine just messes with people's memories. That said, Paula actually fights and has a frying pan, Namine just sits on her chair and twiddles her thuimbs with occassional angst until Sora or Riku reach her. OH YEAH, and she takes like AN ENTIRE YEAR to do anything remotely worthwhile.
Rita Mordio (ToV) vs. Fran (FF12): Hey look, people who may actually work in middle! So much better a fight than the previous one, that's for sure. anyway, Fran's an exceptional archer, so we're to believe, Rita's exceptionally talented at magic. I'm gonna go with the one whose got fireballs that can devastate small legions over sharpshooting for now.
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1): Dog should be in Heavy. The freaking thing becomes a Toaster with MASSIVE LASER BEAMS for crying out loud. Hanpan, meanwhile, is just a rat. A smart talking badass one with awesome Metal Gear Solid skills...but that doesn't help in combat.
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG): I'm going to asume you mean Mist. THAT SAID, Peach is Poster Girl of Damsel in Distress in Video Games; she displays 0 plot power in SMRPG even (at least Bowser knocks down a door.) Mist, meanwhile, hangs around with mercenaries and is related to Ike and Greil, so she's probably got some talent with a sword, at least enough to push her above Princess "I get kidnapped by a clear comic relief villain every other game, and exist just to be rescued" <_<
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2) I'm going with the guy who actually does things in battles besides lifting an enemy up for Ryudo to hit.
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1): Shiho's at least skilled in the Arcane arts, and her songs are suppose to have special powers. Nina has a bag...
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Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5)
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3): HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
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Ernst's rune is exceptionally strong.
When is this stated? I'm not trying to be confrontational; I honestly can't recall Ernst getting any plot hype at all.
Well, I don't recall any direct hype for Ernst either in Suikoden V, but he does bear a child rune of the Beast Rune. And the True Beast Rune is theoretically why Luca Blight was such a badass, and he didn't even technically bear it. So I can see Luca Blight minus minus maaaaaybe swinging the Middle / Heavy border. But I'm not even sure if Ernst can even control the Rune that well, since, well, it's a cursed version. And Kevin is an excellent Heavy anyway, so yeah, my vote is definitely staying the same at least.
Also, in other news, Google seems to indicate that Raidou doesn't do any time traveling really, so unless he's got some Time Demons to summon or is immortal or something, I don't think he can stop Ultimecia from Kompressing him and the rest of time while off in some other time period.
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Luca's power was entirely related to him being a physically gifted headcase. The rune had no real direct benefit to him.
The plot surrounding Ernst just talks about how strong the rune is, and it's curse. The one mage who studies it (Levi) talks about it some, though I'm a bit hazy on the details at this point. It was highly sought after for that strength in spite of the side effects- Levi was going to travel with him and Norma after the war to both study it and hopefully help remove it.
I'd put a strong Suikoden rune above Kevin's powers as a great fighter.
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BAZBA bears a rune that's a child of a True Rune. Granted, I don't know Ernst's rune specifically thanks to stupid S5 recruitment, but at least having the child rune of a True Rune doesn't really mean anything.
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*Checks Suikosource*
S5 puts it on the tier of the Star Rune/Dawn Rune for raw power, just far harder to control and nastier thanks to the curse. Levi follows Ernst and Norma after the game to help break the curse just to get his hands on it. The control issue is a problem, as Ernst can only use the rune in his human form and for a short amount of time. Don't think Kevin's control and strength is better enough to make up for a higher end Suikoden rune.
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Godlike:
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs)- beats Time Compression, negotiates with all her guardians, then stomps Ulty. Honestly, spoiled.
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF)- Intuitive.
Heavy:
Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG)- I actually have a good deal of Plot!Emmy respect, but Axel's pretty solid.
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3)- Stomp.
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5)- Trained ninja commando vs. Circus trickster.
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR)- Rikku steals Bag, gets eaten.
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM)- Using the "Well if they're in this division I'll take this view" effect, Namine can't rewrite Paula's memories in time before Paula freezes her in a block of ice.
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Godlike:
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs) - he can get around her time magic, and after that she's in a fight against a guy who carries his own personal army under his cape. That's not ending well for her.
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3) - so horribly, horribly spoiled.
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5) - yeah, I'll buy the rune hype.
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5) - military officer vs. wannabe circus performer
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR) - Rikku steals some of Jessica's "medicine" and mistakes it for something non-toxic.
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM) - I don't think Namine can warp Paula's memory, and outside of that she's helpless.
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1) - Hanpan may be a lot smarter, but he's still a rat vs. a dog with frickin' laser beams.
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Godlike:
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF) - Silmeria technically has possession, but Overdrive beats Silmeria's powers anyway.
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5) - People in the military are trained how to shoot to kill. They are also trained how to not get killed by incoming attacks, if the military is even possessing a shred of sanity. Rebecca lacks military training and any acceptable substitutes (Trick shooting is NOT a viable substitute), and on top of that, WA5 Mediums aren't even that special. Oh, and Ursula has a machine gun.
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1) - ...ow. Laser dog.
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2) - PICKS HIM UP AND DROPS HIM. Alternatively, PICKS UP A COW AND DROPS IT ON HIM. Seriously, what he can lift is limitless. Oh, and Lowe totally and completely sucks. He's even the worst healer in ShF1. And that's -bad-.
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Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5)
X (MMXCM) vs. Mother Brain (PS2) - Never played MMXCM.
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs) - I think Raidou can beat the time stuff.
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF)
Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3) - You're joking, right?
Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG) - I don't buy too much Axel respect here. Kinda forgettable for me actually.
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3) - Would be less close if it was Disgaea Prier.
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5)
Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5)
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR)
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM)
Rita Mordio (ToV) vs. Fran (FF12) - blahblahblah
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1)
Mist (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG)
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2)
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1)
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Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF)
Heavy:
Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG)
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3)
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5)
Middle:
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR)
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM)
Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1)- Toaster Dog is battle not plot. Hanpan outsmarts the dog.
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG)- Mist isnt DID (damsel in distress)
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2)
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1)- Shiho is so not light in plot power
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Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1)- I'm somehow tempted to take Shiho back when she was alive, where she's fundamentally powerless (her battle song thing basically induced Berserker Rage. She herself was frail and killing her is how the enemy won the war!) Buuuut... nah, probably unfair.
You've actually described exactly why she has plot power. The enemy won...because she refused to use her power. She was kind of the whole lynchpin of a near undefeatable army (Which wasn't even all that impressive except for her powers boosting them).
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Yeah Shiho has the plot power to make OTHER PEOPLE powerful. She herself is never shown as anything but a helpless little blind girl who can (and is) easily cut down by someone when she doesn't have a berserked army protecting her.
Kinda like she doesn't have one in a dueling tournament.
There is no reason to think that Shiho gains more power after her death, either. Gameplaywise you can GIVE her offensive magic, but even that requires intervention on the part of the player and isn't something that should automatically be assumed.
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If you want to put it in that frame of reference, all she needs is one person relatively nearby her on her side (Maybe not even that nearby, since her voice transmitted to a whole army). Since plot wise Nina doesn't even have a way to off her quickly, Shiho has plenty of time to find someone to berserk against Nina (Unless they are thrown into a completely deserted plane or something...).
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If you want to put it in that frame of reference, all she needs is one person relatively nearby her on her side (Maybe not even that nearby, since her voice transmitted to a whole army). Since plot wise Nina doesn't even have a way to off her quickly, Shiho has plenty of time to find someone to berserk against Nina (Unless they are thrown into a completely deserted plane or something...).
Can't vote on this, but... that's kind of what I've been assuming. The characters don't get any help that they don't actively bring to their side i.e. Yuna's Aeons. Not sure where I'd stand on Call Team here, but letting Shiho stumble across someone to make berserk wouldn't work for me.
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And Ultimecia's Time Compression doesn't do her any good if someone is standing right in front of her, but it's still being brought up. Not to mention that if you take it that literally, you can't even have someone really trick someone else because there in theory isn't that much in arena that you can use to trick someone (An example would be if someone could use a projecter to make holograms plotwise in game, they could beat Dekar here because if it's that literal then they couldn't bring the projector in the arena).
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And Ultimecia's Time Compression doesn't do her any good if someone is standing right in front of her, but it's still being brought up. Not to mention that if you take it that literally, you can't even have someone really trick someone else because there in theory isn't that much in arena that you can use to trick someone (An example would be if someone could use a projecter to make holograms plotwise in game, they could beat Dekar here because if it's that literal then they couldn't bring the projector in the arena).
Well, I was considering people not objects. Though I don't respect Kompression much in this situation I guess.
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People fighting for her are practically objects in Shiho's hands anyways.
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Since it got brought up again, re: Time Compression in a duel setting....
don't really respect the Kompression as a duel weapon either, as it obviously has some huge preparation time. However the point is moot as Ultimecia can (probably) time travel. Admittedly I can see throwing this out for sanity's sake, but she does possess Edea from her impenetrable future base, and more importantly time travels in both body and spirit at the end of the game. While I can see throwing this out as only happening once and possibly not being repeatable, or saying that she could only do such a powerful thing while dying, or that she was caught up in general weird time currents... I'm personally willing to basically let her time travel when she wants. Meaning unless her opponent can follow a la Magus, or is immortal, or has some way to exist outside of time and space, she gets to set up Time Kompression and win the match a year later or whatever as the time continuum collapses.
Don't know Raidou, so I'm not sure why people think he can get around this, but sure, he sounds powerful enough and there are enough question marks on Ultimecia's power level it doesn't sound like a rob to me.
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Ultimecia CANNOT travel through time directly. That was kind of the reason she didn't just transfer herself back in time, right to where Squall is sitting on the can defenseless, and smite him there and then (I note Squall specifically cause apparently, he's the one she wants dead specifically, being the "legendary SeeD" who is to face her in an indefinite Time Loop and always kick her ass). Her powers can transcend time, as evident in how she can control Edea and Rinoa, but she herself cannot traverse time. The Time Compression was basically a way to cheat time and her mortal life span (supposedly, Ultimania confirms that all Sorceresses, Ultimecia included, have normal human life spans, regardless of how powerful they are, so she's by no means immortal either) and what not. She herself has limited control over time.
Its also worth noting that Ultimecia only managed to compress time cause the HEROES LET HER. That was kind of a gambit on their end; let Ultimecia take control of Rinoa again, and make use of Ellone's powers, to somehow speed up Ultimecia's methods, which would allow them and Ultimecia to break the boundaries of time and finally face off. Its clear Time Compression is not a simple case of "Snaps fingers, TIME IS COMPRESSED!" Ultimecia was clearly trying to pull this off at every moment, and it obviously required a lot of work.
FURTHERMORE, I seem to recall that for Ultimecia to successfully compress time, she NEEDS Ellone. That's why she was taking control of Sorcerress' in that time specifically. Without Ellone factor in, Ultimecia's just another Sorceress, if an exceptional one (she did, after all, create a GF just by reading Squall's mind, so she's clearly talented to say the least.)
So yeah, Ultimecia's Control Over Time is a bit overrated. Though, if Dissidia is any indication, she can Freeze Time for limited spans, evident in her fight with Squall, where he slashes her, and she sort of just fades out of the way to another spot instantly, and we even see her freeze time on the spot. Though, at the same time, Dissidia seems to imply she cannot actually attack until she starts time up again (she can prepare her moves it seems, but they won't do anything until she starts up time again. She creates a crap load of spears around Squall, but none of them fire off until she has time act up again.)
I know, Dissidia is not the best of things to bank on, but when you have plot powers as vague as Ultimecia's, it may very well be the best source we have :\
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Ultimecia CANNOT travel through time directly. That was kind of the reason she didn't just transfer herself back in time, right to where Squall is sitting on the can defenseless, and smite him there and then .
Well, maybe. Are you taking this from Ultimania as well? Because she doesn't offer a reason in-game, and a pretty obvious alternative one is "I am safe in my fortified castle in future with dead SeeDs on pikes outside as a message to everyone else and don't want to risk something stupid happening by going to a time period where I don't rule the world." In other words, she'd leave her body behind out of a proper sense of caution, not because she couldn't take it if she wanted to.
Its also worth noting that Ultimecia only managed to compress time cause the HEROES LET HER. That was kind of a gambit on their end; let Ultimecia take control of Rinoa again, and make use of Ellone's powers, to somehow speed up Ultimecia's methods, which would allow them and Ultimecia to break the boundaries of time and finally face off.
Yeah, but that's how Our Heroes got to the future, right, Ellone screwing with her powers? I'm referring to when Ultimecia is dying and has the scene with Squall, young Squall, and Edea in the ending. That seemed to be her own power to me.
FURTHERMORE, I seem to recall that for Ultimecia to successfully compress time, she NEEDS Ellone. That's why she was taking control of Sorcerress' in that time specifically.
Beats me about this. I don't recall anything about this from the game but it might be obscure and/or from Ultimania, so, er, maybe?
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Ultimecia can't travel through time at all, actually.
Her antics in the game were because she had access to the Junction Machine Ellone, a design by Odine that mimicked Ellone's powers. For whatever reason, it had a limited range and could only send Ulti's consciousness back to the current time. She needed Ellone's power to send her further back to Adel's body in order to complete time compression.
While she does appear in the ending at the Orphanage, so does Squall! Time Compression is essentially squashing time and space into a singularity, so when it was undone by Ultimecia's defeat, time spread back out and thus anyone there at Ground Zero could end up in any place or time that they mentally attatched themselves to. Ultimecia, whether by following Squall's mind or by her own devices, appeared somewhere she could encounter another Sorceress to pass her powers onto and then died.
Now! That Ultimecia has some power over time and space is a logical assumption; yes, she has to go through a lot of stuff to achieve Time Compression, but the fact is it's still clearly some aspect of her power triggering it, so one might suppose that she has a localized control over time that her Ellone-power fueled antics was amplifying in order to effect all of time simultaneously.
Really, her use of powers in Dissidia Meeple described fits in this the logical conclusions here, though whether Raidou has any powers needed to resist such a thing I have no danged idea.
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Closes in a few hours. Vote now!
Fascinating discussion on Ultimecia's plot powers here. I had forgotten so much of FF8's setting. It's a pretty interesting setup despite the poor plot execution... >.>;;