The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => Tournaments => Topic started by: Taishyr on June 03, 2009, 01:48:16 AM
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(Inspiration from Excal's Twink League)
Okay, a slight twist on the usual here. You all are at least somewhat familiar with the Twink League and the boost that characters get there.
Well, this is just a bit different. We aren't aiming for High Godlikes here. We're aiming for the Heavy/Godlike border. And, of course, so that I don't flood it with SMT and Persona games (which are the main ones I know how to fiddle with, natch), I'm opening this up to suggestions from the DL.
As a general example, here's two ideas which will probably see use:
Relm (w/Phoenix, Carbuncle Espers mastered) (Reflect, Haste, Safe, Shell, WARP, Cure3, Life3, Fire3)
Ramza (399 JP in all non-Calc jobs)
Feel free to suggest anything, though know that I'm more likely to choose people from high-draw/ranked games just on the principle of tweaked people being somewhat harder to vote on in theory, thus having a complete obscura with odd tweaks would be, quite perhaps, more hardcore than I'm willing to venture into here.
Also note that I may very well pepper you with questions if I need clarification; thus, any nods will include the nommer.
Full List of Season 1 Participants:
1) Relm (FF6 SNES)
DL legal equip options
Phoenix, Carbuncle materia mastered (Spells: Reflect, Haste, Safe, Shell, WARP, Cure3, Life3, Fire3)
Sponsor: Taishyr
2) Ramza (FFT)
DL legal equip options
Can acquire any abilities (secondary/reaction/innate/move, if viewed as practical) that costs 399 or less. Calculator abilities cannot be used.
Sponsor: NEB/Taishyr
3) Tengaar (S2)
DL legal equip options
Mother Earth+Darkness runes
Sponsor: Snow
4) Dias (SO2 PSX)
DL legal + two Atlas Ring accessories.
No other changes
Sponsor: super
5) Cecil (FF4DS)
DL legal equip options
Counter and Darkness augments
Sponsor: Meeple
6) Gogo (FF6 SNES)
DL legal equip options
Any solo-usable skills as options
Sponsor: Meeple
7) Yulie (WA4)
DL legal + Castle Wall (null first attack/attack chain in a battle), Speed Skates (improve speed first turn to ~Jude's level, not guaranteed but likely), Knight Guard (DEF +25, MGP -25) accessories
No other changes
Sponsor: SnowFire
8) Luneth (FF3DS)
DL legal equip options
Can choose any job except Onion Knight, depending on the battle.
Sponsor: SnowFire
9) Blue (SaGa)
DL legal equip options
990 HP, entire skillset minus Tower/Overdrive.
Sponsor: Laggy
10) Serge (CC)
DL legal equip options
White elements (no offensive ones aside from Saints) + Dreamer's Sarong (7 elemental levels at start of battle. Reminder: Serge's slots are 8 8 8 7 5 4 4 4. See this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=18.msg77#msg77) for elemental info
Sponsor: DjinnAndTonic
11) Mitsuru (P3)
See this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3463.msg62833#msg62833).
No skillset changes.
Sponsor: OK.
12) Quistis
DL legal + 100 Full-lifes -> HP-J, 4x Status Defense junction slots, 1x Elemental Defense junction slot.
No other changes. (Estimated result: Quistis is 2.2x PCHP, limit is 0.77x PCHP)
Sponsor: SnowFire
13) Heracross
See this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3463.msg65615#msg65615).
Sponsor: The Pokemon squad (Sir Donald, Ultradude, hinode, Yoshiken, others I'm sure I'm neglecting
14) Sasarai
Full S3 equip choice, Yellow Scarf full blocker equipped.
Flowing Rune slot unlocked, full non-True Wind/Lightning/Fire/Water rune choice.
Sponsor: Neph/self, kinda
15) Meru
Equips changed: see this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3463.msg66773#msg66773).
No other changes.
16) Garet
See this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3463.msg66767#msg66767) for complete details.
Sponsor: Ultradude
17) DL DEFENDER Nel Zepher
18) DL DEFENDER Marcello
FINAL BOSS: Vincent (FF7) w/ 5x Master Magic/Magic Counter combo materias. Will be Hatbot-piloted. ^_^
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Tengaar (Mother Earth Rune+Darkness Rune, running off both her best affinities. Basically adds ID and draining to her spoiling game. Makes her a lot nastier, but she still has issues with her stats being subpar and running off only average speed.)
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Does Sasarai with a Yellow Scarf count for this?
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1. Lich Saradin with a Demon's ring. (OB)
2. Dias with two Atlas Rings. (SO2)
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FF4DS Cecil w/ a few Augments. Darkness and Counter come to mind. Basically, Cecil uses Darkness, and becomes idiotically anti physical as a result, and wiht his healing, can tank some. FF4DS Cecil, worth noting, is an even BETTER tank than FF4o for a number of reasons, so this sounds like a bigger upgrade than you'd think.
ALTERNATIVELY! Kain w/ Darkness, Counter, and Limit Break augments. Should let him do actual sick damage with Jump.
Some sort of not insane Crisis Core Zack set up; I'll come up with something reasonable, don't worry! Mostly thinking something like Hell Firaga + Curaga + Wall, but I have to work out what would actually be fair.
Locke with Offering. Doubles his innate damage, makes his low HP damage ABSOLUTELY OBSCENE, turning him into a weird limit fighter. Also gives him turn 2 instant death with Wing Edge.
Gogo with Skills. Yes, I mean everyone he can use by himself (so no, Not Magic for example.) 2HKO damage from Blitz, a bunch of fun options from Rage and Lores, and limited Physical Immunity from Throw, are the main things he gets, backed up by his good speed. This sounds absolutely obscene until you remember Gogo still can't take hits worth shit.
FF7 Tifa equipped with Master Fist, Double Cut Materia, Cursed Ring, under Sadness Status. Set up lets her dish out 10k~ damage a turn, off good speed, and due to Sadness status, is pretty damn tanky, though she pretty much will never be able to pull off a Limit either. If this set up needs any extra oomph, playing around with giving her Counter Attack Materia couldn't hurt (should do about 4k~ damage a hit). Alternatively, if its a little too good, make Double Cut not mastered, so lowering her damage to about 8k. Could also play around with her armor if she needs to be better (like ziedrich adds damage *AND* makes her even tankier, though that might be going overboard.)
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Hehe, this is pretty cool. I don't have a Heavy/Godlike to submit, but I have had this sitting around since Excal's last Twink League.
I wanted to see what a twinked Disgaea character could do. In-game, you can make some fun setups by having characters make pupils and learning skills from them. Particularly magic. Flonne is the best natural mage of the PCs, and she can pull out some decent damage with Tera Star, but it's still only a 2HKO. Adding bows to the mix, she at least has some decent status options. If you allowed the stat buff she would get from the Cleric and Star Mage pupils, she'd have some more SP and RES to work with. But I imagine that you'd still want to take this against an average of the PC cast with pupils, too, so the net gain she would get from this is negligible. Otherwise, see the averages in OK's topic, because that's what I based my calculations off of.
Flonne Lv75 (Cleric, Star Mage pupils; Bow mastery, Staff mastery)
AKA: What Flonne was designed to do, but has no DL legal claim to.
Heal: 450HP healed; 4SP
Mega Heal: 600HP healed; 15SP
Giga Heal: 1000HP healed; 40SP
Omega Heal: 2400HP healed; 100SP
Espoir: Dispel negative status; 10SP
Braveheart: Atk up ~30%, stacks; 8SP
Shield: Def up ~30%, stacks; 8SP
Magic Boost: Int up ~30%, stacks; 8SP
Magic Wall: Res up ~30%, stacks; 8SP
Poison Arrow: 410 physical damage, Poison 50%; 3SP
Dark Flash: 490 physical damage, Deprave 50%; 10SP
Delta Split: 640 physical damage, Sleep 50%; 20SP
Sturmhimmel: 640 physical damage, Paralyze 50%; 32SP
Zielregen: 780 fire-elemental physical damage, Forget 50%, 65SP
Doppelganger: 950 physical damage; 100SP
Power of Love: Healing. Sigh. Cannot target self.
Holy Arrows: 880 magical damage; 40SP
Divine Ray: 950 magical damage; 100SP
Star: 520 magical damage (star-elemental/nonelemental); 6SP
Mega Star: 715 magical damage; 15SP
Giga Star: 900 magical damage; 40SP
Omega Star: 1120 magical damage; 100SP
Tera Star: 1370 magical damage; 200SP
Counter 0
Move 5
Jump 15
HP: 1072 (1122)
SP: 454 (674)
ATK: 238 (288)
DEF: 171 (1161)
HIT: 309
INT: 482 (1522)
SPD: 345
RES: 409
She might be a low Heavy due to 2HKO and Full Healing? Maybe. She also has a slew of turn 2 statuses, but she has to sacrifice a decent amount of damage for it. Use her if you need a scrub, I suppose.
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Yulie w/ Castle Wall, Speed Shoes, & Knight Guard. Makes it a lot easier to set up her game.
Alternatively.. Lilka with Magic Attack Up, Magic Defend Up, Physical Defend Up, and plowing the rest of her PS points into status resistance. Another staller; will matches ever end?
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First thing that comes to mind for me are Pokemon with items/TMs~
Blastoise w/Wacan Berry
- Rain Dance, Water Pulse, Focus Blast, Ice Beam.
~ Wacan Berry negates the electric weakness, which is pretty common around the DL, and Water Pulse/Ice Beam give chances for status. Focus Blast is powerful, a Special Fighting attack and can lower Sp. Def, and Torrent + Rain Dance + Water Pulse is likely to kill quickly for when it's struggling. Still has terrible Speed and average Sp. Atk, though.
Pikachu w/Light Ball
- Thunderbolt, Surf, Volt Tackle, Swift
~ Light Ball doubles its Sp. Atk, already making it above-average, and Surf & Thunderbolt are naturally powerful attacks, with Thunderbolt having added paralysis. Swift is for the evade-happy/elemental-immune, and Volt Tackle is the physical-based attack to deal with high MDef. Of course, if it can't OHKO, it's likely to get OHKO-ed itself, with terrible HP & defences.
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But I imagine that you'd still want to take this against an average of the PC cast with pupils, too, so the net gain she would get from this is negligible. Otherwise, see the averages in OK's topic, because that's what I based my calculations off of.
I figured the new setups were taken against DL-legal PC averages. Doing otherwise ruins the point of some tweaks (most notably, damage averages go up).
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Blastoise w/Wacan Berry
- Rain Dance, Water Pulse, Focus Blast, Ice Beam.
~ Wacan Berry negates the electric weakness, which is pretty common around the DL, and Water Pulse/Ice Beam give chances for status. Focus Blast is powerful, a Special Fighting attack and can lower Sp. Def, and Torrent + Rain Dance + Water Pulse is likely to kill quickly for when it's struggling. Still has terrible Speed and average Sp. Atk, though.
First off, Blastoise doesn't have bad speed; its fairly close averagish (might be even above depending on what Generation average you use.)
Next off, this set up...is honestly not up to the standards of Tweak League. We're aiming for Heavy/Godlikes after all. This set up is, beyond lacking Lightning weakness, is overall worse than DL Blastoise if you ask me. No Hydro Cannon building up potential like DL Blastoise has, by definition is against the Gen 4 damage average which is MUCH higher, and Focus Blast < Hydro Pump by a rather significant amount for raw damage. Unless you mean "Add these moves to Blastoise's potential skillset", but I think he already gets Rain Dance. Additionally, I don't think those 3 other moves are enough. Blastoise needs a much larger push in the DL to get to that H/G border.
Pikachu w/Light Ball
- Thunderbolt, Surf, Volt Tackle, Swift
~ Light Ball doubles its Sp. Atk, already making it above-average, and Surf & Thunderbolt are naturally powerful attacks, with Thunderbolt having added paralysis. Swift is for the evade-happy/elemental-immune, and Volt Tackle is the physical-based attack to deal with high MDef. Of course, if it can't OHKO, it's likely to get OHKO-ed itself, with terrible HP & defences.
With the exception of now having Surf, that Pikachu set up more or less exists in the stat topic. Pikachu aint getting out of Middle with it, despite the damage, cause his durability is just that awful.
I know you're trying to make interesting Pokemon Twinks, but these just aren't very different from their DL selves, and these particular two need a huge boost to get to that H/G border we're aiming at. Additionally, I don't think its reasonably possible for Pikachu to get high enough for Tweak League; the damage isn't ever going to be a OHKO, he lacks any "Auto Win" tricks, and the durability seals his fate.
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Ehh, those were just general ideas with no research past "Hey, what can this learn?". I can understand the reasoning behind the Pikachu, but I'd still say Blastoise can easily be made pretty powerful - optimum EV/nature stats, perhaps? Change the moveset however, but I'm fairly sure that the Wacan Blastoise with added attacks can easily be H/G.
I'll admit, those probably need a lot of work, but I'm fairly sure those can at least reach top-Heavy, if not H/G quite easily. (With stat abuse, naturally.)
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But I imagine that you'd still want to take this against an average of the PC cast with pupils, too, so the net gain she would get from this is negligible. Otherwise, see the averages in OK's topic, because that's what I based my calculations off of.
I figured the new setups were taken against DL-legal PC averages. Doing otherwise ruins the point of some tweaks (most notably, damage averages go up).
Fair point. The only difference this makes is really to SP and RES, though.
So... she gets about 250 more SP to work with (one more shot of Tera Star!) and she can now full-heal herself with Mega Heal (therefore saving more resources!). And she becomes more magic-durable, obviously.
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Blastoise may be possible to pull off in H/G, but he'd require quite a serious push, is all I'm thinking. Dunno if he can actually muster it or not. Pikachu, though, you'd basically need to go the length of giving him extra levels, which...yeah...
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Maybe some sort of competative focus item build for pokemon twinks?
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Gen4 Heracross with Guts + Burn Orb + Facade, Jolly nature, whatever EVs compliment using this to duel (probably more balance than standard competition Heracross?), also packing Aerial Ace (evasion whores), Revenge (120 base if the other guy damaged Heracross the turn before... with STAB and Guts behind it), and Swords Dance if he gets time to set up. Facade OHKOs even some defense-built bulky Waters with this, and if it gets a turn to Swords Dance... woooo.
EDIT: Still not especially durable and eats it to status though. Also super duper physical spoilers.
Unless you only want ranked duelers, in which case I might be able to do something for Swampert.
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Can Pikachu use the FEAR setup?
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So Tai doesn't have to do all the SMT set-ups:
Persona 3
*Since most equipment effects are randomized, I'm assuming you'll allow her to have set effects for this (Lucifer's Blade and the Ice Bracer are set effects, at least)
Mitsuru Kirijo
Weapon - Lucifer's Blade: 450 ATK, 100 HIT, +10 All Stats
Armour - Eternal Armour: 156 DEF, High Fire Resistance Effect (30% resistance, overrides weakness)
Footwear - Eternal Shoes: 130 EVA, High Magic Evade (+30% Evasion versus magic)
Accessory - Ice Bracer: Ice Damage+25%
Good: 2x average damage (411 to a 205 average), no weaknesses (halves ice, 30% fire resistance), loads of healing, 50% accurate silence, above average durability (110% to magic, about 115% to physicals), great evasion (35% or so vs. physicals, 65% vs. magic), average damage physical for back-up with great accuracy (great accuracy on the magic too).
Bad: Eats it to status, still no actual speed score, ice damage is wallable.
I'll think of some others later.
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In keeping with the current trend of Pokemon Nominations:
Gen 4 Blissey
Ability: Serene Grace
Item: Flame Orb (Hence, Gen. 4)
Moves:
Softboiled
Counter
Psychic
Ice Beam
Flame Orb sets Burn Status on its bearer after its first attack, preventing the imposition of Sleep, Poison, Freeze, or Paralysis Statuses. The 1/8th mHP reduction can be handled by Softboiled, and the physical attack reduction... what Physical Attack?
Ice Beam was chosen to take advantage of Serene Grace and the relative lack of Freeze Immunity in the DL (i.e. virtual 5HKO w/o Freeze/Ice Immunity, regardless of MDef). Psychic is if an enemy has Ice Immunity, and Counter is for heavy-enough physical attacks to be a threat, but not enough to OHKO her. Subject to MP-Drain and Reflect, though. Probably dies to Pummel, though could probably survive (but not counter) Bum-Rush (due to Gen 4 rules...)
And, just so that we have something other than a Poke-Build...
Zell with Carbunkle, Leviathan, and Pandemonia GFs.
Commands: Attack/Limit, GF, Recover, Absorb
Abilities (Carb has Abilityx3): Counter, Auto-Reflect, Initiative
Junctions: 100 Ensua to HP -> +500 HP
Recover is not subject to Silence or Reflect (IIRC). And though Reflect is Dispellable, Carbunkle can restore it. Leviathan and Pandemonia provide uncommon damage that could be useful against the right enemy. (Absorb is just there to fill out the menu...)
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Here's a pokemon twink that might make the H/G border.
Gardevoir with some defense EVs and traced speed boost ability. Gardevoir would already make a solid heavy, and the defense EVs and speed boost help to cover its weaknesses. It's weak to statuses, but if it isn't taken out quickly the speed boost ability could overwhelm opponents especially with Calm Mind.
Dragon Quest 5 hero with meteorite bracer. He's very fast and difficult to kill. Upper and Fullheal give physical fighters a ton of problems. Bad damage keeps him from being a true godlike.
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Sir Donald: GFs are... huh. A well-boosted GF with good compatibility can kinda keep up with attacks and Tripled Magic at endgame, so normally I wouldn't worry, except that the DL seems to use averages based on unjunctioned characters, in which case a boosted-GF will be inflicting extremely godly damage. Zell probably would just smash things with overkill Leviathans.
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Anyway, here's my proposal for an FF8 character... Quistis with 100 Full-Lifes junctioned to HP and 4 Status Defense junctions to use as she chooses. For reference, it seems that 100 Full-Lifes would grant 4800 extra HP, so Quistis would have ~2.2 PCHP and limit at ~.77 PCHP using the stat topic unjunctioned averages. Ruins stallers, at least. (If this is thought too weak, she can get an Elemental Defense junction as well, or to really make her scary give her the Recover Command. With that she blows out those with limited resources.)
FF3DS Bartz Luneth: At the JL listed in the stat topic for each class, no Onion Knight. But needs to pick one job per fight, natch. Lots of versatility, compromised by the fact that his best forms are only Heavies. Still, Warrior for times he wants to blitz and Sage for times he wants to stall / status has some appeal, if nothing else.
Some Fire Emblem character: I dunno. Eirika is already Heavy/Godlike apparently (maybe give her the critical-canceling accessory?). I'd recommend some variant of Ike, but apparently he can't wear a Beorc Guard? So, uh, Ike with 3 Elixers and a Seraph Robe for +7 HP, maybe?
Aeonless Yuna: Hey, it's a tweak, all right.
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Aeonless Yuna arguably is too good even for Heavy/Godlike, though!
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FF3DS Bartz:
Luneth, perhaps?
Would G3 Yuki with 4x attack number skill break Heavy/Godlike?
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Gen4 Heracross with Guts + Burn Orb + Facade, Jolly nature, whatever EVs compliment using this to duel (probably more balance than standard competition Heracross?), also packing Aerial Ace (evasion whores), Revenge (120 base if the other guy damaged Heracross the turn before... with STAB and Guts behind it), and Swords Dance if he gets time to set up. Facade OHKOs even some defense-built bulky Waters with this, and if it gets a turn to Swords Dance... woooo.
EDIT: Still not especially durable and eats it to status though. Also super duper physical spoilers.
Unless you only want ranked duelers, in which case I might be able to do something for Swampert.
This moveset is pretty flawed. Revenge has a negative priority (-6 so it goes after everything but Trick Room) and is at best only as strong as Megahorn/Close Combat, so there's no reason whatsoever to also use it over those two moves. Similarly Facade is 140 effective power to Megahorn's 180 effective power, outside of Bug resists like Weezing and Gliscor there's no real use for it. Given how Bug resists are pretty much non-existent outside of Pokemon, you might as well go for Protect (to activate Flame Orb and avoid turn 1 status)/Swords Dance/Megahorn/filler.
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This moveset is pretty flawed. Revenge has a negative priority (-6 so it goes after everything but Trick Room) and is at best only as strong as Megahorn/Close Combat, so there's no reason whatsoever to also use it over those two moves. Similarly Facade is 140 effective power to Megahorn's 180 effective power, outside of Bug resists like Weezing and Gliscor there's no real use for it. Given how Bug resists are pretty much non-existent outside of Pokemon, you might as well go for Protect (to activate Flame Orb and avoid turn 1 status)/Swords Dance/Megahorn/filler.
Eh, just going off of what I've seen in play, though yeah, that works better when you aren't trying to get around a team's worth of resists.
Put Aerial Ace in the filler spot for the evasive and you've got a nasty little set. I was accounting somewhat for Megahorn's inaccuracy and Close Combat's self-debuff, given that with Burn Orb he's already in a tight spot if he needs to take a hit. Though yeah, the raw OHKO potential off that speed is H/G enough I guess.
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FF3DS Bartz:
Luneth, perhaps?
Would G3 Yuki with 4x attack number skill break Heavy/Godlike?
Not a chance, he's reliant on SP moves to do damage in the DL and even 4x'ing his physical damage wouldn't change that, just ease the pressure on his resource a little.
Easy way to make a G3 tweak though: let them use Orbs. Maybe give them some spells too if you wanted. The buff orb combined with healing would certainly be effective.
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Put Aerial Ace in the filler spot for the evasive and you've got a nasty little set. I was accounting somewhat for Megahorn's inaccuracy and Close Combat's self-debuff, given that with Burn Orb he's already in a tight spot if he needs to take a hit. Though yeah, the raw OHKO potential off that speed is H/G enough I guess.
If you're worried about taking hits, then giving him an STAB move that *forces* him to take hits via negative priority (and which isn't reliable damage anyways) certainly isn't the right answer!
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Meru (LoD)
Magic/Dragoon Tweak - Pretty Hammer, Magical Hat, Armour of Legend/Blue Sea Armour, Dancer's Shoes, Amulet w/th LoD stat up/down items
Perks - Pretty Hammer gives 400 SP w/th Cool Boogie meaning Meru can seriously rack up the SPs to stay in Dragoon form for multiple turns when she transforms, Magical Hat boosts MP and the magic stat, negates water/ice - she could opt for the Rainbow Dress here instead but if she's going to spend most of the time in Dragoon form she'll be immuning status anyway, Meru + moar speed, doubles MP - combined with the Magical Hat that gives her 300 MP, enough for three Blue Sea Dragons and some left to spare for Rainbow Breath/Freezing Ring. I don't know if that alone's enough for what Tai's looking for though so I'm tossing in the stat up/down items as an option just in case. With Power Up/Down and the magic boost from the Magical Hat Blue Sea Dragon will hit hard~
Speed Tweak-Basher, Dragon Helm, Armour of Legend/Rainbow Dress, Dancer's Shoes, Dancer's Ring w/th LoD stat up/down items
Perks - Insanely fast - multi turns Kongols like no tomorrow, the HP boosting Dragon Helm might save her from being OHKO fodder in some cases, Rainbow Dress provides a nice boost to second game best magic defence and some status immunities (stun, poison, arm blocking - dunno where Meru might run across the third though >_>) Perky Step would be the addition of choice here with the Basher. The addition mods, with the enhanced game best speed and her strongest attack boosting weapon should allow her to apply some decent physical pressure.
I'm not sure which would be best~
Thoughts?
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If you're worried about taking hits, then giving him an STAB move that *forces* him to take hits via negative priority (and which isn't reliable damage anyways) certainly isn't the right answer!
That was more in regards to Close Combat and it's defense dropping.
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Joachim. Standard weapon and armor.
Accessory:
Huge Jug
Spikes
Priest Earrings
Crests:
Valefor (Cure All, Heal)
Aim (Rage, Shield, Gale)
Forneus (Surge, Barrier, Mirage, Hail Breeze)
Agares (Earth Edge, Rock Rot, Rock Storm)
Gremory (Barrier, Bright Light)
Joachim starts with 40 SP. Spikes lowers his SP by 1 for every hit he takes, but for every hit he takes, he assumes automatic Resist Defense (by as far as I know, this makes him take 50% or less damage, even from ITD, and immune to status).
Huge Jug lowers his SP consumption by half from ANY source, letting him last FAR longer.
Priest Earrings let him do more with his spells/specials with 20% more MP. If he really doesn't need the 20% MP in this, he can always opt for Ashra's Earrings for 20% more HP, or just the Dark Angel for 8 more SP.
This... MIGHT be way overpowered, though. If it is, I'll just scrap it.
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Sir Donald: GFs are... huh. A well-boosted GF with good compatibility can kinda keep up with attacks and Tripled Magic at endgame, so normally I wouldn't worry, except that the DL seems to use averages based on unjunctioned characters, in which case a boosted-GF will be inflicting extremely godly damage. Zell probably would just smash things with overkill Leviathans.
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Anyway, here's my proposal for an FF8 character... Quistis with 100 Full-Lifes junctioned to HP and 4 Status Defense junctions to use as she chooses. For reference, it seems that 100 Full-Lifes would grant 4800 extra HP, so Quistis would have ~2.2 PCHP and limit at ~.77 PCHP using the stat topic unjunctioned averages. Ruins stallers, at least. (If this is thought too weak, she can get an Elemental Defense junction as well, or to really make her scary give her the Recover Command. With that she blows out those with limited resources.)
Actually, one the other ideas I had was Quistis with Aura Spells (Unjunctioned), so that she'd be able to access her Blue Magic Limits from the get-go.
Then again, there is this slight nag I have about allowing Commands, Abilities, and Junctions without assigning a GF which, in-game, sort of makes it all possible... Then again Faux-GFs can be constructed...
But your idea is better from the "Making FF8 PCs into Normal PCs from non-customizable games" standpoint. The only thing that might be needed to complete the process would be to allow her to cast Aura, so that I would think of as the first upgrade, before going into stuff like Elemental Defense and extra commands. (I'm assuming it would be better for Quistis to cast Blue Magic for Status instead of casting her Spell Stock.)
Incidentally, my other idea would've been to have Rinoa with the 1st 4 GFs with 100 Curagas junctioned to HP (+2200 HP), the ability to choose 3 of GF, Doom, Mad Rush, and Treatment, and the ability to junction 2 Elemental Defenses out of Thunderga, Firaga, and Blizzardga. No Magic Command, but she would have access to the attack spells via Angel Wing.
FF3DS Bartz Luneth: At the JL listed in the stat topic for each class, no Onion Knight. But needs to pick one job per fight, natch. Lots of versatility, compromised by the fact that his best forms are only Heavies. Still, Warrior for times he wants to blitz and Sage for times he wants to stall / status has some appeal, if nothing else.
An disturbing interesting variation to duelists who can form-swap. The ability to choose among that many forms could be a game-breaker in its own right. Of course, restricting each form to the Stat Topic equipment as well (and Geomancer to Plains) would help with some of the confusion...
Aeonless Yuna: Hey, it's a tweak, all right.
Actually, she'd be perfect for Team DL Defense (The old Twink League had Tweaked characters go up against other Tweaked characters and DL-Natural Godlikes, IIRC. Not sure if it was 6-Person Pools leading to an Eliminations Tourney or Straight-up Single Elim.)
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Emelia (Saga Frontier), built as a gunner, w/ mastered Rune magic.
Speed plus initiative damage if she wants it (good damage at that). Rune magic gives her good buffs (Soul is solid, Victory can help), regen (Vitality), and cheese potential (Hide - combined with Vitality is essentially slow but full healing).
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Okay. I'm gonna run down the suggestions as I see them. Feel -free- to argue with me on these; I have subjective viewpoints, naturally, and thus I can easily miss things.
(NOTE: If you nommed a Pokemon, I may not add it to the list at first. This is primarily because I don't want a Pokemon rush, honestly - I confess no deeper reason. This being said, I'm also likely to make sure at least one gets in. *shrug* Definitely enough interest in them to ensure that.)
Neph: I... gutcheck that it's not enough for Sasarai? Is there any other change that could be done for Sasarai? I like the idea of having him in, but. (Main reason: I think a fair few people already allow partial Yellow Scarves under the accessory splitting rule; that doesn't seem to be enough push for her as is.)
super: Gut says no on Lich Warren? IIRC you said he was invincible to non-Holy/non-elemental magics, which... would be a rather brutal spoiler even in Godlike. Dias with two Atlas Rings is tentatively added, however. How's that improve his damage? I'd imagine near-OHKO or OHKO, but otherwise his main thing is elemental spoiling and decent defenses? Should still be good enough for the border.
Meeple: FF4DS Cecil tentatively added. I'll be sure to specify form; might hurt vote totals for him, but ah well. Also going to add Gogo w/ Skills. And on Tifa, what's that make her damage compared to the usual damage average? Will probably add her, but.
Djinn: Eyeballing her, seems like the SP's a massive restriction on her; agreeing with your Low Heavy gutcheck. Will keep her in mind, though.
Snowfire: Yulie accepted. Give me a bit to think on Lilka, I'm open to arguments but I'm actually gutchecking that as a semi-decent Godlike build for her, since she's getting these boosts where no one else will.
Yoshiken: See Meeple. This being said, the group might be Low Godlike enough that, say, a slight Rayquaza tweak might work. Any suggestions, Yoshiken/Meeple/UltraDude/hinode?
Ultradude/hinode: Would the revised comments re: Heracross be able to survive in this? Also, what game set would he need to be from?
OK: Accepted, although I seriously don't remember any equips that could negate weaknesses... Probably a Tai memory issue here, though. Your weaknesses listed are why she'd be on the border, yeah.
Sir Donald: No clue on Blissey; would want to hear commentary from the rest of the Pokemon group. Zell, SnowFire raises my sad objection to; perhaps give him another ability in place of said GF command?
dude789: Gonna run the DQ5 one by someone who knows better than I on that, as well as the Pokemon one - but doesn't Trace's change end at the end of battle? Mmm.
SnowFire: Quistis may be accepted; I may reserve her if the Zell build becomes more viable for a prospective second season. For Luneth, tenative approval? Will be interesting to see how an option master does here. Unsure on FE here, your Ike's probably the best option. Will need to think. Aeonless Yuna... I vote on her, and she does -just fine- in Godlike, so. >_> Perhaps you and Sir Donald can hash out a few FF8 tweaks?
ClearTranquil: Mmmm. My memory of LoD's bad, I'll have to poke chat. Gut says give her something to compensate for her physical defense, first, but.
MagicFanatic: Let... me think on that. He'd be insane spoilerbait, but far more likely to -be- spoiled than, say, the Lich build; gut says people from multi-hit systems are more common than people with competent Holy damage. This being said not sure how many multi-hit people we'll even have in.
Laggy: Looking over the topic... mmm, it should work? Added, at least. We'll get to see where it takes her, and any further commentary from everyone would be welcome.
...phew, now my head's spinning again. Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions, and keep on tweaking!
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Lich Saradin? Immunes everything but NE magic and holy. Holy damage makes him explode quite literally.
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Would the old Twink Agrias set up with MP Switch combo be H/G if we restricted her to DL Legal equips only? This makes her stuck with that shoddy speed, which means the combo is that much less effective, still bites to status whores to some degree, and Multi Hitters eat right through it. IIRC, the Twink League Agrias was given Excalibur, at very least, which makes her game that much better.
An FF12 PC with like all options barring Espers! No, this isn't quite as broken as it sounds, cause they're basically average at everything, and FF12 status isn't that particularly accurate. furthermore, they spend an eternity getting their game going. Its basically a PC with Full Healing, some buffs, and some mild status, and not much else. Naturally, their equips would be restricted to storebought stuff, which lacks much in the way of broken, IIRC? Oh yeah, of course no items, for all that FF12 items suck anyway <_<;
Might be forgetting something, but...yeah, an FF12 Full Liscence Board PC is hardly on par with, say, Full Sphere Grid PCs <.<
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The second Heracross... with max EVs for speed and attack, has 137 speed and deals about 120% damage with Close Combat or Megahorn while burned. Doesn't even 2HKO with Aerial Ace, so yeah... the other guy needs to be pretty frail, and spoil his other moves through evasion. Burn Orb takes a turn to activate, so Protect probably goes in there. Averagish durabilities, with that speed means Hera might get a Swords Dance off... at which point Heracross is blowing everything to bits. As an added bonus, Heracross can potentially OHKO some really frail people (healers, mages) on its first turn. So, Protect, Close Combat (he's going for the OHKO now that I think about it), Aerial Ace, Swords Dance.
The weak points, are slightly below average pdur according to stat topic, and being weak to fire and possibly wind (4X!) with only slightly above average mdur. Also, if you don't see PKMN status as blocking other status, even people slower than him only need to survive to get a turn to take him out (durability, evasion, buffs), and those faster just pick him off right away.
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Okay, I'm keeping in mind that we'll only have one, maybe two Pokemon at the most. I'm thinking the best approach is just to have some suggestions until we find one that we all agree on, though.
With the Heracross, that still has the problem of being killed by a light breeze - 4x weakness to Wind is never fun. I'm thinking that with the status problem mixed in would be its downfall, although either one can be solved through berries - but not both, and that gets rid of the Flame Orb.
Prime example of a painfully powerful Pokemon (alliteration fun!) is Machamp w/No Guard. Give it Dynamicpunch for STAB-ed 150-base-power guaranteed-confusion fun. Throw in Stone Edge for those aerial types, Bulk Up for buffs, some elemental punch (instinct says Thunder, since water types from any RPG seem to be defensive), and then throw on a Muscle Belt for added power to all attacks. Or, if the strength is already good enough, a Lum Berry to ensure it can't be screwed over by status on turn 1. 'Course, if it can't kill in one turn, it loses to status almost instantly, and it's not the fastest thing ever (although giving it EV-training for optimum speed could slightly balance this.)
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Neph: I... gutcheck that it's not enough for Sasarai? Is there any other change that could be done for Sasarai? I like the idea of having him in, but. (Main reason: I think a fair few people already allow partial Yellow Scarves under the accessory splitting rule; that doesn't seem to be enough push for her as is.)
Gale Rune as well might help, it's a 1.5x speed increase. In this case, of course, I meant Yellow Scarf as complete status immunity, for what it's worth.
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Okay, I'm keeping in mind that we'll only have one, maybe two Pokemon at the most. I'm thinking the best approach is just to have some suggestions until we find one that we all agree on, though.
With the Heracross, that still has the problem of being killed by a light breeze - 4x weakness to Wind is never fun. I'm thinking that with the status problem mixed in would be its downfall, although either one can be solved through berries - but not both, and that gets rid of the Flame Orb.
Prime example of a painfully powerful Pokemon (alliteration fun!) is Machamp w/No Guard. Give it Dynamicpunch for STAB-ed 150-base-power guaranteed-confusion fun. Throw in Stone Edge for those aerial types, Bulk Up for buffs, some elemental punch (instinct says Thunder, since water types from any RPG seem to be defensive), and then throw on a Muscle Belt for added power to all attacks. Or, if the strength is already good enough, a Lum Berry to ensure it can't be screwed over by status on turn 1. 'Course, if it can't kill in one turn, it loses to status almost instantly, and it's not the fastest thing ever (although giving it EV-training for optimum speed could slightly balance this.)
Thing is, Heracross is OHKOing a lot of those wind users (not super common element, fire is more relevant weakness) and status users before they get a turn. They have to survive or evade that giant hit, and if they're too slow Heracross might double too. Machamp can get above average speed - 107 with max EVs, 117 with Jolly nature. This is probably more useful than Adamant, since he'd have a solid 2HKO either way. Going for damage, he could use a Choice Band, so he narrowly OHKOs with perfect accuracy and adds confusion off of above average speed... that sounds pretty fun. Has a wind weakness like Heracross, if not as huge, and doesn't have to worry about fire. Much easier to outspeed, but No Guard mocks guys like Arnaud. EVs and a Choice Band probably bring him up a division?
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Hmm. I'd still say Lum Berry will probably serve him better, if only to fend off Turn 1 status. Judging from the Speed value you gave (having not checked the stat topics), Pokemon are Lv 50 for this. In that case, Machamp can have the 117 Speed and still have 182 Attack. I'm thinking damage isn't gonna be Machamp's problem, which is why I'm still inclined to go with the Lum Berry.
What do others think~?
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Hatbot's official, Taishyr-approved entry approaches. Not for the faint of heart.
Final Fantasy 7
Vincent:
HP: 4595
MP: 537
Sniper CR (900 damage)
Master Magic=Magic Counterx2
Imperial Guard
Master Magic=Magic Counterx3
Touph Ring
Vincent can cast any one Master Magic spell on his own turn, and counters with five of them in succession whenever he takes damage.
Each counter is a random one out of 54 possibilities. Beneficial spells are targeted to Vincent himself.
1 - Cure, 5MP - heals 710 HP
2 - Cure2, 24MP - heals 1370 HP
3 - Cure3, 64MP - heals 3460 HP
4 - Poisona, 3MP - cures Poison
5 - Esuna, 15MP - cures status changes (not Slow)
6 - Resist, 120MP - prevents *any* status changes
7 - Life, 34MP - revival in a duel
8 - Life2, 100MP - revival in a duel
9 - Regen, 30MP - regen
10 - Fire, 4MP - 300 fire damage
11 - Fire2, 22MP - 750 fire damage
12 - Fire3, 52MP - 2400 fire damage
13 - Ice, 4MP - 300 ice damage
14 - Ice2, 22MP - 750 ice damage
15 - Ice3, 52MP - 2400 ice damage
16 - Bolt, 4MP - 300 lightning damage
17 - Bolt2, 22MP - 750 lightning damage
18 - Bolt3, 52MP - 2400 lightning damage
19 - Quake, 6MP - 410 earth damage
20 - Quake2, 28MP - 900 earth damage
21 - Quake3, 68MP - 2625 earth damage
22 - Bio, 8MP - 375 poison damage, 55% poison
23 - Bio2, 36MP - 790 poison damage, 55% poison
24 - Bio3, 80MP - 2550 poison damage, 85% poison
25 - Demi, 14MP - 25% cHP gravity damage, 75% accuracy
26 - Demi2, 33MP - 50% cHP gravity damage, 75% accuracy
27 - Demi3, 48MP - 75% cHP gravity damage, 75% accuracy
28 - Sleepel, 8MP - 85% sleep
29 - Confu, 18MP - 70% confusion
30 - Silence, 24MP - 70% silence
31 - Mini, 10MP - 85% mini
32 - Toad, 14MP - 85% frog
33 - Berserk, 28MP - 95% berserk
34 - Haste, 18MP - haste
35 - Slow, 20MP - 120% slow
36 - Stop, 34MP - 70% stop
37 - Barrier, 16MP - protect
38 - MBarrier, 24MP - shell
39 - Reflect, 30MP - reflects next 4 spells
40 - DeBarrier, 12MP - removes protect/shell/reflect/shield
41 - DeSpell, 20MP - removes positive statuses+slow/stop
42 - Death, 30MP - 50% ID
43 - Escape, 16MP - IN A DUEL!
44 - Remove, 99MP - Perfect ID, does not give gil/items
45 - Comet, 70MP - 3000 damage
46 - Comet2, 110MP - 4x1050(4200) damage
47 - Freeze, 82MP - 3560 ice damage, 80% stop
48 - Break, 86MP - 3750 earth damage, 40% petrify
49 - Tornado, 90MP - 3940 wind damage, 40% confusion
50 - Flare, 100MP - 4315 fire damage
51 - Wall, 58MP - protect+shell
52 - FullCure, 99MP - fullheal
53 - Shield, 180MP - absorbs physicals and elemental damage for a few rounds
54 - Ultima, 130MP - 3940 damage
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And here we have the FINAL BOSS, ladies and gentlemen. I promised I wouldn't hurt Tonfa, so I won't.
I'll leave that to the rest of you. ^_^
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... what have you done.
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Re:Heracross, turn 1 Protect will activate the Flame Orb while Hera's untouchable and it's status immune from there on out. I don't really see a use for Lum here.
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Lum was for the Machamp, not the Heracross. That said, I did forget about the Flame Orb thing when talking about Hera earlier. Wind and Fire are still major problems, especially since it won't take much Wind to kill it (4x), so I'm thinking Lum!Machamp would beat Heracross still. It's close, though.
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I'm not really sold on the Machamp. Dynamicpunch is a lot less useful in a DL setting where confuse blocking equips are reasonably common, and No Guard's downside is pretty significant - Machamp is toast against even the crappiest of ID moves for instance. Swords Dance and Flame Orb/Guts are much more effective damage buffs than Bulk Up as well, considering you have no healing here.
In addition, you need to design movesets with a DL mindset, not a Pokemon mindset. Fighting is not an element in the vast majority of the game and thus won't be resisted, and there probably won't be a single "aerial type" in this tournament that resists fighting or is weak to Stone Edge. For that matter, any attempt at hitting elemental weaknesses is pretty much going to be a waste of time - even the Persona characters are going to have resistance armors that null their weakpoints.
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Ack, I knew there was something I was doing wrong here. I was thinking from attack-basis, not defence, hence the talk of hitting weaknesses/resistances. Whoops. ^^'
...Okay, I've spent the last 20 minutes thinking, and I've still got nothing. I had some Togekiss set that would still be screwed over by T1 status or Ice or Lightning. >_>
That Heracross still doesn't look like H/G to me... I'm thinking, for Pokemon, it's gonna have to be a (pseudo-)legendary in order to make it H/G. >__<
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...Okay, I've spent the last 20 minutes thinking, and I've still got nothing. I had some Togekiss set that would still be screwed over by T1 status or Ice or Lightning. >_>
That Heracross still doesn't look like H/G to me... I'm thinking, for Pokemon, it's gonna have to be a (pseudo-)legendary in order to make it H/G. >__<
It's not necessarily that it has to be a "(pseudo-)legendary" to make it into H/G, it's just some Pokemon just... REALLY need drastic changes in order to make that push. A debated subject earlier was Blastoise, who's not even that bad in the first place, but to really make him a performer in H/G you need to do some serious adjustments, and another contested subject was Pikachu, and I think it can be agreed that Light Ball Pika needs to be in the Lv90~100 range to be even close to competent in H/G (albeit as a freaking glass cannon) and... We all know how that goes...
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... what have you done.
Tai: *nods* Yeah I wasn't wanting to make her too broke though. A Legend Casque/Armour of Legend combo would do that. The Power Down item increases the damage the enemy takes and decreases the damage they do both and the Power Up increases the damage Meru does and decreases the damage she takes ... I could ask for a Armour of Legend also w/o the Legend Casque but I'm concerned that might be a bit OTP with those items. I'll get back to you on it =D
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... what have you done.
Tai: *nods* Yeah I wasn't wanting to make her too broke though. A Legend Casque/Armour of Legend combo would do that. The Power Down item increases the damage the enemy takes and decreases the damage they do both and the Power Up increases the damage Meru does and decreases the damage she takes ... I could ask for a Armour of Legend also w/o the Legend Casque but I'm concerned that might be a bit OTP with those items. I'll get back to you on it =D
I actually meant that to Tonfa's hellspawn.
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Arr. I thought you were talking to Tai >_>
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MagicFanatic: Let... me think on that. He'd be insane spoilerbait, but far more likely to -be- spoiled than, say, the Lich build; gut says people from multi-hit systems are more common than people with competent Holy damage. This being said not sure how many multi-hit people we'll even have in.
That's why the Huge Jug is there - it gives Joaquim an effective 80 SP. If he needs it, then the Dark Angel could boost that to an effective 96 SP... And considering that he resists just about everything... Yeah.
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Re: Zell vs Quistis: Go ahead and put in Quistis per Snowfire's plans in this Season. I'll probably come up with an Ability/Command or Magic based person at a later date, but again I see Snowfire's idea brings FF8 Characters to "Standard RPG Party Member" Status with higher HP and access to Status Defense as brilliant.
The only thing missing from that idea is direct access to her Blue Magic; which is why, IMO, if she's not good enough as-is that giving her the ability to cast Aura should be first on the revisions list, as opposed to any abilities that a stock DL'er would not normally have (i.e. Elemental Defense).
Other people's Poke Ideas:
Personally, I'm not a fan of putting Legendaries (or Heavy-rated Pokemon per Mepple period) in this tourney unless as a Team DL Defender. The only thing I can think of to improve Ray is give it the Beams (Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt) with Dragon Claw for STAB. Leftovers help here too. Alternately, Gen 4 can have Outrage/Dragon Pulse/Thunderwave/Filler with Persim Berry (Prevents Confusion, Replenished between matches). Because let's face it: Who can block Dragon Attacks? (Famous last words, much?)
Gardevoir would already make a solid heavy
That's why I didn't consider her (Gardy has a 4th Gen gives a Male-Only Branch.) Furthermore, Trace doesn't work that way. Trace copies the listed ability of Gardevoir's current opponent. Defense and Speed EVs could help if permitted, but... Trace just doesn't work that well against other RPGs. (Out of the current list of 10 plus Quistis, Trace would only work thus far against DS!Cecil and possibly Yulie. Would work against my Zell, but I'm holding off on an Ability/Command Build until Season 2.)
Ultradude:
Gen4 Heracross
Ability: Guts
Nature: Jolly, EV Dependent
Item: Burn Orb (Hence, Gen 4)
Moves:
Facade
Aerial Ace
Revenge
Swords Dance
Ultradude's moveset allows for Sleep/Paralysis/Poison immunity via the Flame Orb, with Guts neutralizing Burn's Attack Nerf. And with 'Cross at 85% of Average Speed, Revenge going last probably won't hurt that much. Still needs to get the job done quickly, as 'Cross dies in 8 Turns even if the opponent is allowed to use Defend all of the time.
Actually, Revenge vs Facade: Revenge only gains +10 Power and the Fighting Type (how useful it is outside of Pokemon is limited) vs. practically always going last, but with Heracross at sub-Average speed, it doesn't matter as often as you'd think. Still, since both types are physical, it's better to have 1 move or the other. I would recommend Earthquake (another Physical) as the replacement, as Ground is a more common RPG Element (though not as common as Fire/Ice/Lightning).
Also, Revenge would make the Jolly nature pointless. If you want to keep Revenge, then I suggest using Adamant Nature. Not sure how you'd spread your EVs, though. If you're insistent on having 'Cross at Average Speed, then use Facade instead.
As for Aerial Ace, it's quite the attack nerf compared to Facade and Revenge and even Earthquake (60 vs 140, 150, and 100 respectively). Sure it's deadly accurate, but Burn's guaranteed 8TKO means that 'Cross is up against the clock and if someone's not vulnerable to Jump (or Wind, depending on interpret.,) then then it just doesn't have the power 'Cross needs.
Re:Heracross, turn 1 Protect will activate the Flame Orb while Hera's untouchable and it's status immune from there on out.
Works as Move #4. Megahorn is inaccurate, so it's better to keep Facade OR Revenge (But not both) but is actually better than Revenge or Facade even after factoring accuracy (180 X .85 = 153 > 150 > 140). Earthquake hits a more common element than any of the above 3 do. Swords Dance can work with this strategy in theory, but 'Cross is up against the clock again.
So replace Facade and Revenge with Megahorn and Earthquake respectively, and swap either Aerial Ace OR Swords Dance for Protect. Or just drop Earthquake for Protect if there isn't anyone weak to Ground.
Yoshiken:
Gen. 4 Machamp
Ability: No Guard.
Item: Muscle Band/Lum Berry
Moves:
Dynamicpunch
Stone Edge
Bulk Up
some elemental punch (instinct says Thunder, since water types from any RPG seem to be defensive)
EV-training for optimum speed
Neat trick. Again Status vunerability (after Turn 1), plus cited concerns re:Confusion Preventors do have some validity. Just too bad he (75%) doesn't have a OHKO of his own. Hinode's further points on Elemental Resists are also valid. You could try to construct a moveset based on the Guts Stat, but 'Cross is better on average.
Finally, I reiterate my own suggestion regarding Blissey:
Gen 4 Blissey
Ability: Serene Grace
Item: Flame Orb (Hence, Gen. 4)
Moves:
Softboiled
Counter
Psychic
Ice Beam
I basically thought that Softboiled would balance out the HP drain of Burn. Then again, Hinode's Protect strat vs. Fast Turn 1 Status Whores (even bigger concern with Blissey than 'Cross) gives me pause. The only move I can see dropping to allow Protect here is Counter, which takes away a keen weapon against Fighters. Alternately, there's Lum Berry again, but that's a 1-shot. The key to the moveset is Ice Beam+Serene Grace=Virtual 5HKO (resistance to Freeze Status is rare among RPGs). Psychic is there just for the Ice-immunes.
I didn't think about Natures or EV Spreading. If natures are allowed, definitely one that would nerf Attack. Probably Modest, as Spec Def is already high. No EVs in Attack or Defense, I'm certain of that. I'd probably boost HP (Yeah, like that needs a boost) and likely SA since that matches the nature.
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Comments in Bold
Ultradude:
Gen4 Heracross
Ability: Guts
Nature: Jolly, EV Dependent
Item: Burn Orb (Hence, Gen 4)
Moves:
Facade
Aerial Ace
Revenge
Swords Dance
Ultradude's moveset allows for Sleep/Paralysis/Poison immunity via the Flame Orb, with Guts neutralizing Burn's Attack Nerf. And with 'Cross at 85% of Average Speed, Revenge going last probably won't hurt that much. Still needs to get the job done quickly, as 'Cross dies in 8 Turns even if the opponent is allowed to use Defend all of the time.
Problem I think... is that you're counting base stats, vs. actual stats. Just using PsyPoke's data, Heracross' base speed is 85, but it's actual speed at 50 is 105 - which we're comparing to a 100 average. With just EVs and no nature, it comes to 137, which is just plain fast. I'm no PKMN calculations expert, but that's pretty much exactly what all the references I use are telling me is the case, that base stats =/= actual stats at 50, which is what I'm going off of.
Actually, Revenge vs Facade: Revenge only gains +10 Power and the Fighting Type (how useful it is outside of Pokemon is limited) vs. practically always going last, but with Heracross at sub-Average speed, it doesn't matter as often as you'd think. Still, since both types are physical, it's better to have 1 move or the other. I would recommend Earthquake (another Physical) as the replacement, as Ground is a more common RPG Element (though not as common as Fire/Ice/Lightning).
Common elements are probably something to avoid, not look for. Unlike competitive PKMN, the DL means that you're fighting resistance far more often than weaknesses, so having elements to be resisted just limits your offense. Fighting type is great here, because it's not even an element in other games, so Heracross is for all intents and purposes just using a really nasty physical. Also, if he's trying to OHKO, Close Combat has no particular donwsides.
Also, Revenge would make the Jolly nature pointless. If you want to keep Revenge, then I suggest using Adamant Nature. Not sure how you'd spread your EVs, though. If you're insistent on having 'Cross at Average Speed, then use Facade instead.
Addressed above, 'cross with Adamant nature and EVs is both fast and damaging.
As for Aerial Ace, it's quite the attack nerf compared to Facade and Revenge and even Earthquake (60 vs 140, 150, and 100 respectively). Sure it's deadly accurate, but Burn's guaranteed 8TKO means that 'Cross is up against the clock and if someone's not vulnerable to Jump (or Wind, depending on interpret.,) then then it just doesn't have the power 'Cross needs.
Yeah, it's pretty much just a desperation thing if it's going up against like... Arnaud or something, since he probably doesn't get OHKOd without Burn, and Illusion...
Re:Heracross, turn 1 Protect will activate the Flame Orb while Hera's untouchable and it's status immune from there on out.
Works as Move #4. Megahorn is inaccurate, so it's better to keep Facade OR Revenge (But not both) but is actually better than Revenge or Facade even after factoring accuracy (180 X .85 = 153 > 150 > 140). Earthquake hits a more common element than any of the above 3 do. Swords Dance can work with this strategy in theory, but 'Cross is up against the clock again.
Swords Dance is purely for when 'cross can buy a turn against a tanky (or buffing) healer, really. SD brings it up to OHKOing almost any PC with Close Combat or Megahorn, though again, it's pretty situational. Also maybe against super durable but low damaging guys, who it'll hurt more in the long run potentially.
So replace Facade and Revenge with Megahorn and Earthquake respectively, and swap either Aerial Ace OR Swords Dance for Protect. Or just drop Earthquake for Protect if there isn't anyone weak to Ground.
Ground weakness is so hilariously uncommon that EQ doesn't help at all, and STAB make Megahorn or Close Combat (or Revenge) way stronger. I'll agree that SD is really situational, but Aerial Ace feels like good insurance, and with the speed thing I pointed out, Revenge stops being very good, and Facade is weaker than CC given STAB, mostly there for type coverage in competition.
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I wouldn't say you should -avoid- elements. I'd just say they're not as useful in the DL as they are in-game. If your opponent has a resistance to an elemental attack, you don't use it, simple as that.
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With only 4 moveslots, you simply don't have room to try for elemental variety. This isn't like an FF mage who has several dozen spells in his or her arsenal, you need to pick the four moves with the most utility in a fight and not something that might come in handy once every 100 fights or so.
Heracross benefits from having 2 STAB types that are pretty close to non-elemental in the DL, which means there is no reason whatsoever to use any other attack type, as they're never going to outdamage 180 effective power unresisted. They're basically never going to run into elemental weakness either, except maybe against another Pokemon. Literally every other PC in this tournament should have no weaknesses, as even the Persona PCs can go for resistance armor that isn't DL legal.
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Well, the whole "Reduces Both of User's Defense Stats" side effect of Close Combat makes me a little leery. Miscalculated on Revenge a bit there, but again it's a "slow" move. Also leery. They net the same power, but Revenge does so only if you fall under attack; meaning it only hits with net Base 90 if not. Protect+Flame Orb takes care of Status Attacks, but there's still buff-stalling. Which wouldn't be a problem except for that 8-turn limit.
Let's see here: With 1 Close Combat, the enemy's next hit will do 1.5 times as much damage. The next CC, twice as much. It actually stacks linearly. All the while Burn is eating away at your HP at a constant 12.5%. These factors make a normal 3HKO on 'Cross (who has normal Defenses and HP barring WRI) into a 2HKO. Mepple's probably not going to get his Gen. 4 Dex to Furret before Heart-Gold/Soul-Silver get Stateside, let alone 'Cross, so we don't have standard Damage numbers for CC OR Revenge, but they should match Megahorn's Gross Damage of 108 (assuming again the opponent attacks all the time.) We'll say 110 for round numbers. With a Damage Average of 150... CC can work after Swords Dance.
Mepple doesn't use TMs, but Horn Attack is Base 65 Normal, so we can use its damage value of 40 for the Base 60 Aerial Ace. 4HKO to Average, so he only has 50% of HP to spare. (Protect, SD, AA, AA). Meaning the opponent would normally have to be no better than 6HKO with best damage, and that's allowing a turn to set up said evasion. Not sure you get good mileage there.
On the other hand... 'Cross can neutralize that Fire Weakness with Rain Dance. By the time the rain stops, the battle likely will have too. And if the opponent has Turn 1 Status AND Fire Damage? Turn 1 = Protect blocks anything offensive, Turn 2 can be Rain Dance, then go to town on Turn 3-4.
I also considered Brick Break, but CC's power, especially when Danced, is more than a match for most Barriers; it would only be useful against attacks like Earthbound's Shield Beta. And I don't see Ness here, do you?
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By the way, Regarding My Blissey, do you think I should ditch the "Hit Freeze on Turn 5" (effectively Turn 7 for Protect & at least 1 Softboiled) strategy and go with Psychic/Softboiled/Counter/Protect? At least Blissey doesn't have a Fire Weakness... Then again her only ITE attack is the Electric-type Shockwave, and the fact it's Electric Type bumps it from the roster.
My personal reason for favoring Blissey over other 'Mons like Alakazam (which can use a similar moveset to 'Cross to nice effect, except 'Zam has Recover but no AA) is that I want to really make the Items and the TMs the 'Mon. 'Zam and 'Cross are both Mepple-rated Heavies meaning they're almost to the level required, while Blissey's rated as a Light primarily because most of her DL-Legal Damage hits the wrong Attack Stat. Originally I also wanted Serene Grace to have a Day in the Limelight, but Turn 5 Freeze probably wouldn't cut it.
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Trust me, I've done the damage figures for Heracross. If we take max attack EVs + Flame Orb/Guts + Adamant taken against 100 def, the damage is OHKO. Gen 4 stat topic puts damage average at 71, kill point at 177. Heracross beats that by a healthy margin without SD. The defense drop isn't mattering, because he's trying to set up the OHKO if he's using Close Combat.
I think we're getting numbers from different places. Or looking at them in a different way.
As for Aerial Ace, the numbers I'm basing it off of have it at 3HKO, and high evasion guys are often not the tankiest (and Aerial Ace is arguably wind for FE BIRD KILLING).
EDIT: Sadly, the only really hax Serene Gracer for DL purposes is the likely Heavy anyways Togekiss with it's flinch hax.
Now, Charizard can be made to OHKO with Flamethrower/Flare Blitz with EVs, nature, and Life Orb, and have 2HKO non-fire backups with Dragon Pulse and Wing Attack.
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If we're talking Heracross for a tweak, his damage moves should be Close Combat and Mega Horn. He MAY want Reversal for that extra Limit aspect, meaning you don't want him at low health, but that's a gimmick move.
Messing with shit like Facade and what not is pointless. As hinode said, Hera's got 2 STABs in the DL that are close to non-elemental, he doesn't need anything else. Remember, unlike in Pokemon, Weaknesses are NOT common. Primary damage being Non-Elemental means you won't need anything more. For this reason, Hera's only gonna want something like Close Combat and/or Mega Horn. Actually, he may want both; Close Combat's more reliable, Mega Horn lacks the durability killing downside.
Something like Aerial Ace serves a purpose, but NOT for "FLYING WEAKNESS!" It exists purely to deal wtih evasion whores; that's a viable use, but hyping it for anything beyond that is silly.
Burn Orb idea with Guts may work. Its a weak status for Status Immunity *AND* 50% more damage. I'm not sure Heracross needs anything more.
Also, lets keep the number of Pokemon Tweaks down, please? Heracross is a neat idea, but why bring Machamp when he's a very similar thing? Ok, so he adds...Dynamic Punch No Guard in, big whoop, he's still just "Big Physical damage" for the most part.
The Blissey set up, lets be frank, fails. Blissey is slow as fuck, which is a huge problem in the DL, Counter serves little to no purpose in this setting considering how people view things with CTB, and there's a lot more painful status, and its offense isn't good enough. Blissey is not getting into Heavy/Godlike, despite how it can play with Ubers in the Metagame. Ubers in Pokemon =/= Godlike in the DL, for all that they are equivalent in their level of greatness. The DL has many more shit that Blissey has to deal with that Pokemon does NOT have, and these problems are things that make Blissey a really bad dueler, despite being one of the big useful things.
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Admittedly, Aerial Ace flier killing was just me being silly.
I'd still maybe see it that way, but Close Combat's still usually better.
Alright, anyone have any Golden Sun twinks? Berserker Garet has like 120% speed, trades 10% less defense for 10% more HP, might have 2HKO with Planet Diver, Impair, can still Stun with Scorch while also having Vine for speed busting and Ground for Paralyze (though he can only use one Unleash without dropping a class). Or Luminier, which is regular Garet with a little more attack, above average speed, full healing, and some water Djinn.
As for equips, he can equip the powerful (126 attack) Muramasa with a medium-activation super strong fire unleash, and a Cleric Ring to negate its curse. Then he can equip... Ninja Hood, Running Shirt, Quick Boots, and Elven Guard to get 358 freaking speed (on Berserker, a bit less but still nuts on Luminier), and toss in a Mirrored Shield (which can add Delusion!) to help cover the defense loss. Yeah, adding in stuff like undershirts, boots, and rings really helps the cast in some fun ways.
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EDIT: Sadly, the only really hax Serene Gracer for DL purposes is the likely Heavy anyways Togekiss with it's flinch hax.
Skymin is hands down the best Serene Grace haxer for the DL, but it's already high Heavy with just level-up moves so there's no tweak potential.
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If Lilka with status and defense PS's is too good for heavy, you could try Tim with Raftina and a Talisman, with a variable level of HP Up or Defense PS's. It basically allows Tim to heal by invincible spamming instead og getting outright heal locked, which gives him time to actually put out his damage. Even with full HP Up used Tim would still only be at about 95% average PCHP, and that's if you factor him being the only one to get the HP Up PS. So still OHKO bait for harder hitting heavies I think? Also means he can generally null speed advantages once/if he gets his first turn since he can just invincible through doubles.
Would be a decent resource/tank type spoiler, hates buffers, status, and heavy hitters.
Alternatively I think the sheriff star has the same effect but would also boost Tim's speed so you could forgo the hp boost, generally just have him be more frail but in return spoil elements, both are kinda on the air of being a bit too good for heavy, but I'm kinda hoping Tim's craptastic HP pool would be the balancing factor.
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And here's one from another series which loses a lot of its DL variety due to customability: Chrono Cross.
Proposing a Serge w/ White Elements build.
Serge
Chrono Cross
Photon Ray Lv1 White attack spell
Meteorite Lv2 White attack spell
PhotonBeam *Lv3 White attack spell
MeteorShower *Lv4 White attack spell
HolyLight *Lv5 White attack spell, MT (also OHKOs Undead)
Ultranova x1 *Lv6 White attack spell, MT
RecoverAll *MT Heal (Unsure of percentage, says 'Medium')
HolyHealing *MT full healing/status healing
Purify *Heals all negative status
Revive *Revival + 25% healing
FullRevival *Revival with 100% healing
Turn White x1 *Gives opponent innate resistance to White, weakness to Black
Anti-Black x1 *ST, Seals use of all Dark-elemental skills/spells
x5WhiteOut *ITEM, heals Blind, godly.
x5Panacea *ITEM Heals all negative status
StrongMinded *Magic Up
WeakMinded *Magic Down
Magnify *Field Effect, all magic deals 1.5x damage
MagNegate *ST, all magic deals 0x damage
Saints x1 *Summon, requires full white field. MT Healing and White Damage
(SERGE TECH) Dash&Slash
(SERGE TECH) Luminaire x1
(SERGE TECH) Flying Arrow
Notes: With Elements, Serge gets some interesting Magic manipulation tricks with Strong/Weak-Minded, plus a Field Effect to increase ALL spell damage by 1.5. MagNegate is an ST Magical invincibility move that he can get from the store. An interesting magical spoiler. Pretty awesome Heavy/Low Godlike? Also, spoils Lich Warren! Still has that pesky problem of having to build up magic power to use his good stuff. And being elementally-reliant. But now he has more shots of good damage.
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Question for Tai: Are we allowed to use Not Ranked characters but not obscura (thinking of a XF twink build here)?
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...Any input on super-Garet? Please?
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All I can say on Beserker-Garet is which Earth Dijinn will you not attach? Beserker needs 6 Venus and 1 Mars (I'd use Flash for that, so Granite might be the extra.) Same question with Luminier for the Mercury Dijinn, esp. since the Mercury Dijinn Shield is in TLA. Probably Spritz, as it's revival. Also, in both cases, any unleash = Instant Demotion. Berserker only adds ID and Haunt (granted, the latter could be nasty... if it could be charted). Personally, I'd rather go with Luminier's Full Healing. (Garet personally might not take it so well, however; reference an old standby by Nate Grey, "Sweet & Sour" (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1773750/1/Sweet_Sour) (as linked from Fanfiction.net) ;D)
As for Equip: You should add Storm Gear for the Water/Wind/Fire Resists (+30 each, and +42 Def ain't bad, only 2 less than Dragon Scales which doesn't have the Wind Res, and 6 more than storebought Steel Armor.) I would also swap Mirror Shield out for Earth Shield, which adds 20 Earth Resist. at a cost of -8 Def vs MS. (Or, if you go Beserker, -7 Def for +10 Atk. via War Gloves, as added Venus Dijinn serve as well for Elemental Res.) Or just swap out per the situation. I didn't find Elven Guard in the 1st game's Item list... Rest of Speed Buffing's alright. Note, however, that with Cleric's Ring, Thunder Crown becomes available, which adds 12 Def and regens 4 PP per turn at a cost of the +20 Agility Bonus from Ninja Hood. Useful if Garet doesn't need to be that fast...
Basically, do you want Garet to have 2 Elements at 150-160 (Beserker) or Garet with 1 Element at 110 plus Full Healing (Luminier)?
I'm also assuming here that you're considering GS Part 1 only. Reply if otherwise. (Then I'd have to ask why you didn't say Chaos Lord or Radiant.)
BTW, so we're going with Heracross with Guts, Adamant, Flame Orb, and Close Combat/Swords Dance/Protect/Aerial Ace? I am still wondering about possible utility of Rain Dance vs AA, i.e. expectation of Fire-wielding foes vs expectation of evade whores with even max 4HKO damage (being generous to 'Cross again, IMO.)
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Sorry, Elven Shirt, my bad.
Haven't finished TLA, or I'd definitely be tweaking even harder.
But yeah, the unleashes are for landing a basically fatal status that lets him finish the opponent off after the class change; and Barbarian is not a huge drop statistically, so he'll finish almost anyone before they recover from Stun. I want Scorch as my fire Djinn, because it's Stun off of that speed. Which means keeping Granite if Garet really needed the damage cutting, and dropping... Bane, poison on someone who blitzes like that. Anyone he isn't klling via Stun or Paralyze is probably status immune.
As for elemental buffers... Earth isn't common enough to make up for dropping defense and Delusion, though the attack from War Gloves might be better - making the basic physical a low 2HKO is on my list of things to make Garet do.
I do, however, really want the overkill speed, even against the def and PP regen - if only because I like the concept of super speedy Garet. He's H/G either way I think, so I'll push the speed.
Beats almost any PC that can't block multiple status, and that speed and Planet Diver let him outslug some bosses I imagine. Only dies to the really nasty boss sluggers, as well as most boss status users. Compared to that, Luminier loses a lot more quick draws and gets OHKOd by more, and the advantage of healing against slugger bosses. More interested in making him a status whore who's also crazy fast and strong over silly little versatility.
Heracross... any fire user who he doesn't OHKO is probably beating him anyways, aside from a few guys with weak back-up fire damage. Aerial Ace at least gives him a shot at Arnaud >_>
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Except that GS Paralyze isn't that great.
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Except that GS Paralyze isn't that great.
It's... a turn or 2 of paralysis beyond the application turn, dealt by a guy who 2HKOs off of ~200% speed.
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Regarding Mirror Shield, I don't think that many people would allow an itemcast that "may break if used", tweak rules or not. I certainly wouldn't. The added Defense (+7 over War Gloves) is still a consideration, though. Still, War Gloves' increased attack for Beserker (since you're commenting that way) is also worth considering. Beserker's Venus Dijinn cover Earth Resists sufficiently that Earth Shield would not be necessary. (It would be attractive for Luminier, but you're going Beserker.)
The Thunder Crown was merely an option for a little added Defense (+12); the PP restoration would've been icing. Storm gear would be nice, but I can see the temptations of an added 50% Speed. It's too bad the Fur Boots only raise Water Resist by 15.
The way I see agility, you wouldn't really be able to double-turn. In fact, with DL-stock, I only give Dragon Warrior 4's Alena a 7:5 turnsplit against average even though her Agility is up the Wazoo. She's almost 4 Standard Deviations above the average barring her and Ragnar. Then again, a 400 Agility Garet vs. Stat Topic Average's 155... I can see him taking a 3:2 split against DL Average. Then again, the other contestants could take similar builds. But, yeah: First Strike alone wouldn't be worth a Water/Ice weakness on top of the Wind/Electric, as well as a loss of 12 Defense points; a 3:2 Turnsplit vs. Average likely would be worth all of that. Then again, Garet might need all that Agility to Guarantee 1st Strike.
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Remember, this is H/G Twink League, not the usual overkill Twink League. We won't be seeing too many crazy fast people who don't have some sort of other flaw.
Of course, the argument in regards to respect for turn-based speed stands, and I wouldn't mind knowing how others see the situation.
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Just a point on the Spikes/Huge Jug Joachim... That SP isn't effectively doubled - when using the two together, the 1 SP from being hit while in Resist Defence rounds to 1. However, Will Power could work, right? Unless I'm missing something or the in-game description lies.
Edit: And, it turns out Will Power doesn't work. Screw you, game.
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I'll be throwing in replies tomorrow sometime; at a check, we may have enough to run a season and see just how badly this concept blows up. Nin nin~
Anyway, will be back in with full comments soon.
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Djinn's Serge: That might still be too good? Chris is a decent Low Godlike who can also spoil, and the addition of MagNegate alone goes a long way. Admittedly Serge's physicals are less impressive than Chris's, and he doesn't have her impenetrable defense, but the addition of all those other options means he might still be too good. Beats me.
FF8: Well, there are a ton of builds possible. Be happy to offer up more ideas later if necessary; the nice thing about that Quistis build is that it is rather straightforward for voting, at least, and doesn't have a complete maze of options. Unlike...
FF12: I'd been thinking something along the lines of what Meeplelard mentioned. Despite being arguably unique, throw Quickenings out because they're way too damn good for the DL setting.
Storebought weapons and armor... well, Save the Queen is probably the best damage, so that becomes average damage (Don't really see Scathe as storebought, as it's an incredibly obscure secret store). The best attack-status items are from hunts (Stone Shot for 25% Stone and Assassin's Arrows for 25% ID), and the rest have only a 10% chance or so of kicking in, so those aren't so bad. Given a slow match, though, Vaan can inflict most statuses from weapons if need be.
A setup with a Main Gauche (34% Block Rate) and a good shield (Kaiser Shield gives 27% chance, Crystal Shield 25% chance /10% Magic, Aegis Shield gives 13% Physical Block, 50% Magical Block) is pretty badass once augments are allowed as well (+15% shield block from shield lores), so Main Gauche + Crystal + Lore = 74% block rate (!!!). Granted the physical damage will be awful off the Gauche, but if we're allowing some Magic as well, that may be acceptable. While on that note, the Defender greatsword isn't TOO much of a step down from the Save the Queen, and offers a 35% block rate (no shield, though). Not too bad for slugfesting with.
Vaan also gets a variety of elemental attack weapons, which if we're giving him magic are mostly irrelevant anyway. Some are big steps down in damage, others not so bad (Ame-no-Murakumo
katana for wind damage / Holy Lance for Holy aren't bad, for example, or the best ninja swords for Dark damage.... though checking, storebought ninja swords are pretty bad, on second thought, the best ones are all Hunt drops). Ivory Pole looks kind of meh, but is a physical attack that hits MDef and has a 25% block rate, so semi-interesting.
Allowing Augments... already noted the Shield Block. All the stat bonuses cancel, though magic becomes relatively slowly thanks to the Augments speeding physicals. FF12 characters stats go up a bit at full health, and up a lot at low health (so a move like Sai is dangerous, since not only will it jack a FF12 character's defense and stats, it'll also make combos on their attack far more likely - 12 hit chains ahoy.)
Techniks aren't too big a deal, I guess Thousand Needles screws with very high defense characters (1,000 assured damage that's slow vs. 4300 damage from Save the Queen hits, only matters against true tanks) and Charge is good for looooooooong attrition fights. Deathblow has some use vs. healers, and Telekinesis can beat flying evade at the cost of horrible damage.
Magic... Magic's the big one. On one hand, if we assume physicals are normal, Magic tends to be notably a bit slower, and has issues in-game due to only one magic effect going off at once, so I'd definitely call it a bit below average speed. However it offers some pretty powerful options. Bubble is a magnificent move given enough time in a slugfest - it doubles your max and your current HP. This isn't helpful against infinitely spammable ITE attacks that do 66% PCHP or more damage - even after Bubble, they'll just finish the job. But if that attack is constrained by resources, or if it can run into Physical Block / Magical Block (see the Main Gauche / Shield stalling technique above), Vaan just heals every attack until one gets blocked, Bubbles, then laughs mockingly. Or constantly heals and lets the person run out of MP. Haste is as usual awesome. Protect and Shell are decent, and Shell halves your chance of being affected by status. Bravery & Faith are okay damage buffers if that's needed. Simply stalling into a buffing strategy is pretty good.
Additionally, if you lack healing that can be targeted to everyone and status, you arguably autolose to Reverse (all damage becomes healing, and vice-versa; only lasts 2 rounds because it's broken, but it's enough to do something then immediately recast, though opponents may be able to sneak in an action while Vaan is recasting.). Vanish and Reflect makes life difficult for duelers with only magical or only physical attacks, and Vaan has Berserk to go with the Vanish option (though the hit rate is not good). Vaan's got Dispel (always handy), various other status attacks at not good rates (Sleep, Silence, Slow, Stop, Disable....), and all flavors of elemental damage.
So yeah. I think FF12, full license board, is probably Godlike, though not High Godlike. Will have to think on it more, as it could probably be toned down, though I imagine votecount for FF12 would still be a bit low.
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If you don't allow Quickenings, does that mean that Vaan would only have one MP bar? I'd recommend this personally as it makes spamming magic less trivial, and that'd put him a little closer to the Heavy/Godlike border.
On Serge, due to the fact that he can't access most of his good stuff on his first turn (needing stamina to build up element power), I don't think he's too strong for this tourney. Also, using his Elements at all after expending all his stamina just to -get- the fuel to cast them REALLY slows down his next turn...
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Djinn's Serge: That might still be too good? Chris is a decent Low Godlike who can also spoil, and the addition of MagNegate alone goes a long way. Admittedly Serge's physicals are less impressive than Chris's, and he doesn't have her impenetrable defense, but the addition of all those other options means he might still be too good. Beats me.
Actually... Serge can pull off a turn 1 OHKO. While not listed in the stat topic, Mastermune's effect is to hit species weaknesses. All of them. So his effective damage is actually double what's listed in the stat topic. This also applies to physical techs, so Attack String+Dash and Slash yields well over kill point in damage.
His troubles are that, like his entire cast, he's nailed hard by evade, his defensive abilities aren't significantly above average, and his speed is, generously, around average.
While I like Djinn's element grid setup (emphasises White's advantage's in game and gives him variety), I'd suggest additionally tossing a Dreamer's Sarong on him. This is an accessory that grants 8 (7? I forget which, but not relevant here) Element levels at the start of the fight. This would let him cast at the start of the fight rather than relying on spending his first turn smacking things and, at some level, reduces his level of "total boned-ness" against the evasive at least a little. Considering his damage is already Godlike-level, this is more about giving him time to layeth his smackdown rather than beefing up his power, but without completely cracking him out (he's still easy to out-speed, and truly evasive people still give him trouble. he just has a fighting chance instead of going completely emo and doesn't cut himself against middling evade)
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FF12 Quickenings: That would feel incredibly artificial. By endgame you guaranteed will have 3 Quickenings a character, even if you rarely use them in battle, for the MP if nothing else. It's just that allowing Quickenings as attacks would completely and utterly break the damage curve, and in an annoying and random way too. That said, it's not a big deal. Even if you only allowed one MP bar as a balancing measure, it doesn't actually matter much - thanks to charge, FF12 characters still have pretty good staying power in slugfests. The only time this would really matter is if A) it takes awhile to get properly buffed up due to having to paranoia heal a lot *and* B) actually killing requires an MP-expensive magic blitz, rather than a slow grind downward with a weapon. I suppose it would also matter vs. people with, say, an MP nuke that hits 80% of MP, as that'd hurt a lot more.
CC: Er, am I missing something? If Serge is worried about evade he spams weak attacks, which is a downright advantage vs. other game's casts that don't have that accuracy increasing option. And I don't see why his speed wouldn't be average. I'd assume that your average CC "turn" would be 6 points of attacks -> an Element, because that's how it actually works in game if you want to maximize your turn-taking (a strategy based around, say, all physical attacks and no elements in-game would leave one character sitting around with 7 Stamina and nothing to do, so you're clearly intended to use an Element to "finish" your turn.) So not really on the CC antihype train.
Anyway since CK thinks that Djinn's Serge is actually too weak, I will defer to others on that.
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Actually, regarding Quickenings...
On a solo PC, they're really kind of fail. Its very hard to keep a legitly good Quickening going with just one PC. You really need the entire team to get a good combo going. Of course, this sounds weird considering Gabranth in Dissidia pulls off a full combo without problems, but shh <.<
I don't think they're gonna change much one way or another in a duel format, in any event.
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Even Serge's weak attacks are only... I believe it's 85%? accuracy. He has a natural chance to miss, so enemy evade amplifies this into "go emo" levels.
As for speed, well... CC speed is messed up. It has an agility stat. This is meaningless for turn 1 speed, but instead affects how quickly you recharge your stamina. As best as I can explain it, every Stamina expended in CC counts as a 'clock tick' (for lack of better term). Your agility determines how much stamina you regenerate per clock tick, at a rate of 10 agility to 1 stamina. So, the 'fast' characters like Kid, with twelve agility, recharge 1.2 per tick, the slow ones recharge .8 (at least, I think there's some characters that slow). Serge has 10 agility, and thus recharges at an even 1 per click. So, intuitively, his speed is average every turn after the first (assumign he doesn't put himself into the negatives, obviously). However, the actual Agility average is higher than 10 (there are more 11s than 9s), so you could reasonably say that Serge is somewhat slow, though not by a whole lot of course.
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I agree with Meeple, solo Quickenings aren't that broken?
Yikes this is starting to get really interesting now. Some of those twinks look scary, I may have to work on mine a bit more.
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CK re CC: Oh, that. The extra speed that Kid has isn't that helpful since in a 3-person party, she's likely to spend time at 7 Stamina kickin' her heels with nothing to do. Admittedly for people with a 0.8 collection of stamina, whom I used for approximately one battle before deciding they were worthless, would have "speed" issues, though technically it could be intepreted instead as fewer actions on your just-as-fast turn (that is, first turn is 6 stamina of attacks + an element, second turn is... 14*.8-7 = 3.2 of attacks + an element or 4.2 worth of attacks). Ugh. Basically, I wouldn't really penalize Serge on speed myself due to CC's wonky mechanics.
FF12: Just went and wandered around Nabudis a bit. Bad choice, as randoms there will Anull your MP to 0. Anyway... okay, yeah, a solo Quickener has problems in that a decent amount I was unable to follow up the first Quickening at all. However, sometimes I was, and (not sure if this is intentional) but when I did follow it up, I tended to follow it up for a lot more.
At levels 48-50...
Save the Queen, no Bravery: ~3200-3600 damage. Arguably should be a bit higher if you care about combo chance at full health.
Killpoint based off this: ~8500 (1 PCHP - amusingly enough, actually pretty close to a lategame Bubbled PC's real HP!)
Level 3 Quickening: ~5500 damage. The lesser quickenings are basically divisible by this (lvl. 1 ~= 1850 damage, 2 ~= 3700 damage)
So a Quickening isn't very inspiring if you only get one off- FF12 characters likely will spend a bit of MP, and lvl. 2 Quickenings are somewhat pointless compared to physicals aside from being ITD/ITE (at least, I"m pretty sure Quickenings ignore defense, I'm sure they ignore evasion). Buuuuut! This is only if you don't combo it. While half the time I wasn't able to combo it, the other half I was. This included lvl. 3 - > lvl. 3 (~11500 damage; call it 33), 3321 (~16500), 3223 (~21000? This one was a bit high), 3212 (~15500)... this means that FF12 characters can just say "screw it, luck be a lady" and likely blast their opponents with overkill to start a battle off. Quickenings charge basically immediately and have immediate priority, so they go off very fast. Now... this works out strangely in the RPGDL, where many people vote on who wins in general, but in a "real" tournament being able to change matches that would normally be a sure loss into a 40/60 proposition is pretty fantastic. It still has some merit even in non-sure-loss matches; if a match has some areas where things can go badly for FF12 characters, even starting with just a lvl. 2 and hoping for a big chain allows FF12 characters to steal some wins.
So, less broken than I thought, but still somewhat headachey. May test rates on solo quickenings some more later.
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Thanks for researching that, it's interesting stuffs.
Ok from what I've gathered here's what the LoD repeat items do -
Power Up - Increases target's damage and decreases the damage they take by 50% for three turns
Power Down - Decreases the damage the target deals and increases the damage they take by 50% for three turns
Speed Up - Triples speed for three turns
Speed Down - Decreases target's speed for three turns
Material Shield - Physically immune for three turns
Magic Shield - Magically immune for three turns
Magic Sig Stone - Blocks enemy movement for three turns
Psyche Bomb X - Heavy non elemental magic damage
I don't know if Meru would be too broke having access to all of them so perhaps a choice of three or four might be a good idea?
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Okay, starting from my previous post at http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3463.msg62979#msg62979 ...
Neph: Gale Rune decrease spell charge time? Mmm. Any equipment other than Yellow Scarf that can help, does he want to break a locked rune slot or something out for something else? I'm open and I'd have to think something can be done to get him in. Any ideas?
Meeple: I don't know the old FFT Agrias build. Mind posting it up for reference?
The Pokemon Discussion (yes, I know, lazy as hell of me): Seems vaguely like Heracross is the best/most popularly discussed contender here thus far, and his damage looks good enough to pull his weight here. Still open to arguments, but he's been penciled in for the time being. If Sir Donald / Yoshiken / Ultradude / Meeple / hinode could decide on a moveset for him and submit it?
Tonfa: Hatbot Final Boss entry accepted.
MagicFanatic: Someone else said why the Huge Jug won't work in this case; pretty sure they're right, from my own recollection. Also just gutchecking that this group generally lacking multihits makes him semi-inane anyway. Might be worth revisiting next season, but for now I think I'll have to pass. Thanks, though.
Glen Veil: Mmm, interesting; I could see using that instead, perhaps. Anyone else got thoughts on the earlier Lilka proposition and this Tim one? (I might be overselling one or both, but both seem applicable)
Sir Donald: Alright, I'll run with Quistis this time and get your Zell nom next season.
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Djinn: I may drop MagNegate and give the Dreamer's Sarong in this; this build seems like it could easily be either Godlike, borderline, or pretty crackish. Mmm. Tenative berth, talk with CK and SnowFire on this? CC's not my strong point.
Tide: Mmmm.... It's lower vote-draw, but submit it, at the least. Worst case is I include it next season when I'm struggling for ideas. >_>
Skipping around a bit here...
CK: I thought Mastermune hitting weakness was disproven. No? If that's the case... mmm. See Djinn's note, repeating it twice won't help.
Clear Tranquil: Check PMs, working with you there on the LoD build. It's got a tenative berth as well.
SnowFire: Mmm. I'm a bit leery on FF12; perhaps it's an idea for the next runthrough? I confess a bit of bias, having not actually played FF12. Mmm. Is Meeple's earlier appraisal of a full license board PC accurate?
UltraDude: Mmm... I take it that's GS2, as I don't recall Berserker (this might be Tai faulty memory here) in GS1. This being said... my one concern is that not enough people may have played GS2, but it looks solid enough otherwise.
Granted, I can't save all the obscura for season 2 or else the damn thing will be a headache. Likely to get in, tenative berth right now.
If I missed anything, please tell me; with all three tenatives in we're still short one slot. I know Meeple submitted a Locke and a Tifa idea, may toss in the Tifa at worst. Still, more ideas, always welcome, etc. etc..
Ninja Edit: Hm. Yeah, I'd say probably only three of those would be sane. How well would Power Up/Speed Down/Psyche Bomb X fare her, for example? Also more in PM.
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Toro: Gale doesn't decrease spellcharge times. A viable idea for Sasarai to play in the higher leagues would be giving him options that he could use in-game that aren't open to him in the DL: being able to shuffle that third Rune slot (since he has two of them locked) between any L1 or L2 magical rune he wants+a few non-storebought equips to boost his magic affinities in exchange for stats would make him more competitive. Sasarai with a Wind Rune and an... A+?A? on Wind, for an example, suddenly becomes a lot more viable as a twink idea, and he has pretty decent options all in all with rune shuffling. However, he still utterly blows at taking hits.
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Berserker is def. GS1. 1 Mars Djinn, 6 Venus Djinn.
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CK: I thought Mastermune hitting weakness was disproven. No? If that's the case... mmm. See Djinn's note, repeating it twice won't help.
Everyone thought "hits weaknesses" mean "always hits elemental weanesses", which was indeed disproven. The species weakness thing boils down to just doing double damage to everything; it's easily mistaken for a ludicrously amplified crit rate, and in fact for ages and ages that's what everyone thought it was.
Beyond that, I'd rather see Serge lose one of healing or attack magic over Magnegate, myself; at most generous he's average speed, so he's plenty spoilable no matter what you give him, and MagNegate feels like the most interesting possible tool for him to exploit.
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CK: I thought Mastermune hitting weakness was disproven. No? If that's the case... mmm. See Djinn's note, repeating it twice won't help.
Everyone thought "hits weaknesses" mean "always hits elemental weanesses", which was indeed disproven. The species weakness thing boils down to just doing double damage to everything; it's easily mistaken for a ludicrously amplified crit rate, and in fact for ages and ages that's what everyone thought it was.
Beyond that, I'd rather see Serge lose one of healing or attack magic over Magnegate, myself; at most generous he's average speed, so he's plenty spoilable no matter what you give him, and MagNegate feels like the most interesting possible tool for him to exploit.
Yeah, drop his attack magic and he's pretty much a worse Chris clone (his MagNegate is slower to come out than SL, I'd think). And he only has ~2 shots of healing. And only one shot of MagNegate. So yeah, Chrislike with CC damage manipulation? Sounds low Godlike to me.
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Hm. Okay, fair. If the attack magic's dropped I'll go with it. (And wait, seriously, the stat topic doesn't include the doubled damage? Wouldn't that, ah, be noticeable since you're doing it to everything?)
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On the subject of Sasarai with a Wind Rune, how would Luc with TWR/Pale Gate/Wind Rune and a Yellow Scarf do?
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He'd be... a high Heavy, I think. Same issues, but Wind of Sleep covers two of his main woes.
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Thanks again Tai <(^^)>
I'm posting the builds again with edits and a third build which I actually think I might be going with for putting forward.
Magic/Dragoon Tweak - Pretty Hammer, Magical Hat, Armour of Legend, Dancer's Shoes, Amulet w/th LoD stat up/down items
Perks - Pretty Hammer gives 400 SP w/th Cool Boogie meaning Meru can seriously rack up the SPs to stay in Dragoon form for multiple turns when she transforms, Magical Hat boosts MP and the magic stat. Meru + moar speed, doubles MP - combined with the Magical Hat that gives her 300 MP, enough for three Blue Sea Dragons and some left to spare for Rainbow Breath/Freezing Ring. I don't know if that alone's enough for what Tai's looking for though so I'm tossing in the stat up/down items as an option just in case. With Power Up/Down and the magic boost from the Magical Hat Blue Sea Dragon will hit hard~
Item Build - Power Up/Power Down/???
**
Speed Tweak-Basher, Dragon Helm, Armour of Legend, Dancer's Shoes, Dancer's Ring w/th LoD stat up/down items
Perks - Insanely fast - multi turns Kongols like no tomorrow, the HP boosting Dragon Helm might save her from being OHKO fodder in some cases, Perky Step would be the addition of choice here with the Basher. The addition mods, with the enhanced game best speed and her strongest attack boosting weapon should allow her to apply some decent physical pressure.
Item Build - Speed Up/Speed Down/Material Shield
**
Balanced/Supportive Tweak - Basher/Magical Hat/Armour of Legend, Dancer's Shoes, Magical Ring (MP Regen - 10~ per round)
Perks - Well balanced between physical and magical options. The Magical Hat increases MP for both healing if she needs it and for getting in a decent enough magical assault with Freezing Rings, especially with the Magical Ring to regen that MP. Again the Basher giving her the option for decently damaging Perky Steps. Increased speed with the Dancer's Shoes but not insanely so like the Speed Twink.
Toro Build - Power Up/Speed Down/Psyche Bomb X
Armour of Legend on all three builds helps with Meru's defence/P Dur woes~
Edit: Yeah I'm putting forward the third build - Rainbow Earring (full status immunity sans ID), Angel Scarf (halfs damage taken from magic), Dancer's Shoes (because more speed never hurts >_>), Magic Ring (boosts Magic), Giganto's Ring (boosts ATK/DEF) are all options if no to MP regen.
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You know, Emelia looks really bad now, and not all that interesting anyway.
Proposing this instead:
Blue (raised to 990 HP, normal stats otherwise... that is, normal for Blue), Tower and OverDrive not learned.
Still slow, but can now take a hit; lacks the OD loop of doom and overkill damage and instead uses the other billion tricks at his disposal. None are really as abusive as his trademark ones, though. For reference, the noteworthy spells he'd have from the legal schools: Realm (Implosion), Light (StarlightHeal, MegaWindblast), Shadow (DarkSphere), Arcane (Grail), Rune (Vitality, Hide, Soul), Space (ReverseGravity), Time (TimeEclipse), and Life (Reviva).
I remember Super commenting that OD-less (and Tower-less) Blue was a Heavy at best, so this should fit the bill.
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BTW, so we're going with Heracross with Guts (Ability), Adamant (Nature: +PA/-SA), Flame Orb (Item, Add:Burn to Self after Turn 1), and Close Combat/Swords Dance/Protect/Aerial Ace?
That's the general setup. There may be legit arguments to change the nature to Jolly (+Spd/-SA, IIRC), but I think the rest is set. The only attack I see Rain Dance's nerfing of Fire Damage helping against (as opposed to Aerial Ace's ITE) thus far is Beserker-Garet's Supernova, and he also has Stone Spire which I see as Rock-Type (as opposed to Grand Gaia's Ground-Type and Wild Growth's Grass-Type). So yeah...
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Yeah, I think Guts & Flame Orb covers the attack side of things well enough for most opponents. The speed is gonna be the major problem as far as I can see, so I'd be inclined to say Jolly > Adamant.
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Okay. Sorry, been effectively out of commission as re: coherent thinking. I'll coalesce stuff in a little while and throw it up... somewhere; we'll get a season rolled out and running in a bit after that. (No more than 2 days between each of these events, ideally.)
I'll do some quick commentary as well before I close stuff up; at a glance, alright to Laggy's switch, CT I'm likely to give her accessory choice, unless anyone thinks that's too broken - otherwise it's good; confirmation of Heracross setup.
If you want to do any last minute changes or confirmations of what someone has, that'd be great.
If you want to make a really neat and concise post of options and whatnot they have with this, that'd be better! (Sorta like a stat topic entry, just with whatever's been made legal for this).
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Heracross (Gen4)
Ability - Guts: Increases attack when afflicted with a status effect; cancels out attack loss from Burn.
Jolly Nature (+Spe -SpA)
Speed: 150 to average of... around 100.
A bit above average MDur and below average PDur according to Gen3 stat topic; shouldn't change much for Gen4.
Holding Flame Orb (Burns at the end of first turn, activating Guts and arguably providing status immunity, though dealing 12.5% MHP damage a turn)
Moves:
(~175 kill point)
Close Combat (Fighting, Physical, 5 PP) - Decreases own Def and SpD by 50%. Avg. 132; Avg. 197 with Guts; Avg. 326 with Guts and Swords Dance.
Protect (5 PP) - Initiative; invincible to everything until next turn. Base chance of 100%, halved (?) with each consecutive use.
Swords Dance (30 PP) - Raises attack by 2 levels.
Aerial Ace (Flying (Wind?), Physical, 20 PP) - ITE; Avg. 45; Avg. 66 with Guts; Avg. 109 with Guts and Swords Dance.
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Okay, doing final composition of stuff. One last question, though: CT/Ultradude, could you do me a favor and delineate precisely what equips Meru and Garet will be coming in with (and their stats), respectively? (CT: The MP regen ring is fine). I just want to make sure I've got all this outlined properly before I commit the sets of sixteen.
Once this is done, I'll wait for a lull in the tourney topics, then post up the first topics. Thinking 3 pools of 6 each, will be choosing two DL Defenders to be distributed randomly through the pools. Top two advance to the next round (DL Defenders will not be eligible for advancement), ties... will be determined somehow. I'll figure that out once I get that far, too lazy now. >_>
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Out of curiosity, can Serge keep the Saints summon?
In CC, summons can only be used when the Field Effect meter displays only a single color (in this case, White). The Field Effect stores up to 3 elemental colors which effect the strength of elemental attacks. For example, if the Field Effect is White-White-Blue, then White (Holy) and Blue (Water/Ice) spells' strength is boosted, while Black (Dark/Gravity) and Red (Fire) spells' strength is slightly diminished. However, the next spell is that cast will replace a color on the Field Effect meter. For example, if the next spell is Black, then the Field Effect becomes White-Blue-Black, bumping the first White out of the meter. This new field effect is neutral to Black and White spells (since the two colors are antagonistic), but still retains the Blue=increased, Red=decreased effect.
For Serge (or any CC character) to use a Summon element (such as Saints), this Field Effect meter must be all White (meaning only Holy/Light elemental abilities or non-elemental abilities can be used for three turns in a row AND Serge has to build up 8 elemental points even though he only replenishes 7 stamina a turn, a difficult trick to accomplish). Even though this is technically a kind of attack magic, the fact that it is so difficult to pull off, the fact that the game hands this summon to you after a story battle, and the fact that only White-innates (like Serge) can even equip it make it pretty interesting addition to a twinked Serge build, even though we're barring his other attack magic.
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Okay, I can't get exact damage for Garet, but here's what I've decided on:
GARET HP PP Att Def Agi Lck
Berserker 180% 110% 160% 130% 150% 70%
HP 570 (121%)
PP 120
Attack 369
Defense 228 (115%)
Agility 337 (217%)
Luck 5
Muramasa - Atk 126 (medium unleash rate, high fire damage w/ chance of Haunt; Cursed)
Spirit Armor - Def 32; +15 to all resistances.
Mirrored Shield - Def 39; Item cast Delusion, may break.
Ninja Hood - Def 28; Agi 20
Elven Shirt - Def 22; Agi X 1.5
Cleric's Ring - Negates effect of Cursed equipment
Pertinent skills:
Planet Diver (16 PP) - Fire physical; based on cost and Garet's revised stats, ~240 damage.
Wild Growth (28 PP) - 3HKOish Earth magic.
Impair (4 PP) - Def down 25%
Unleashes:
Flint - Strong Venus/physical
Granite - Halves damage taken, MT
Vine - Drops Agility by 50%
Sap - Strong Venus/physical, heals Isaac for 100 HP
Ground - Paralyzes ~90%
Bane - Strong Venus/physical, inflicts Deadly Poison ~80%
Scorch - Moderate Mars/physical, inflicts Stun ~95%
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Test post, to be edited if this actually works.
EDITED IN: Ultradude, alright, thanks. CT, check PMs. Djinn, sure.
Meru's equipment (changed from stat topic)
Magical Hat - MDEF+10, MagAttack+50, Max MP+50%
Armour of Legend - DEF+127, Evade +50%, Greatly reduces physical damage, has 0 MDEF so Meru is reduced to relying on her own innate MDEF stat/MDEF from other equipment for that
Dancer's Shoes- Speed+20
Magical Ring (MP Regen - 10~ per round)
Items: Power Up/Speed Down/Psyche Bomb X
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All nominations have been clarified and confirmed, and a full list of all mods with relevant links is in the first post. Will likely throw out the first round later today, and the second this weekend. The third will be when I have time from Cali: the first round will close then.
For an unofficial list of matches, so people can begin considering:
Pool 1:
Relm
Dias
Yulie
Quistis
Meru
Nel
Pool 2:
Tengaar
Luneth
Serge
Sasarai
Garet
Marcello
Pool 3
Ramza
Cecil
Gogo
Blue
Mitsuru
Heracross