The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Monkeyfinger on June 13, 2009, 09:20:39 AM
-
Godlike:
Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Deamoned (BoF5)
Mewtwo (PKMN) vs Zenon (Disgaea 2)
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Erikia (FE8)
Tibarn (FE9) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)
Heavy:
Zero (MMXCM) vs Reno (FF7)
Jerin (Lufia 1) vs Mithos Yggdrasil (ToS)
Daos (Lufias) vs Serge (CC)
Asellus (Saga) vs Angelo (DQ8)
Middle:
Lich (FF1) vs Flay Gunnar (MK)
Beatrice (WA3) vs Shinjiro Aragaki (P3)
Roxis Rosencrantz (MK) vs Gijimu (S2)
Nash Rumack (Lunar:SSSC) vs Slade (SF2)
Light:
Kahn Marley (S2) vs Garet (GS)
Duessel (FE8) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Zell Dincht (FF8)
Skelly (CC) vs Locke Cole (FF6)
-
Godlike:
Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Deamoned (BoF5)
Mewtwo (PKMN) vs Zenon (Disgaea 2)
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Erikia (FE8): No amount of hasting is going to make Citan not average FE speed. His healing is less than half his HP so probably a bit more than half a Sieglinde double, meaning that while he triples conventionally after haste, around 2/3rds of those turns are going towards healing, and the first one is spent on haste... effectively, he's trading hits with Eirika 1:1 while giving up the first strike, and praying that he hits enough times before Eirika bisects him with a crit (roughly 10%x2 chance per Eirka attack). No, that's not going to work for him.
Note that his deathblows aren't melee attacks and hence won't trigger counters, but that shouldn't save him.
Tibarn (FE9) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs): I... think? Well Yuri1 gets stomped because he's a straight slugger who 3HKOs Tibarn after evade, but Yuri2 should be able to grind him out with speed + healing + a great defense buff, unless Tibarn had a great crit rate.
Heavy:
Zero (MMXCM) vs Reno (FF7)
Daos (Lufias) vs Serge (CC): Holy...
Asellus (Saga) vs Angelo (DQ8): Unless Angelo's ID was turn 1.
Middle:
Lich (FF1) vs Flay Gunnar (MK): Gets around Lich's good defensive stat with Raiden charge. Aroma material + general tankiness lets him weather Lich's arsenal.
Roxis Rosencrantz (MK) vs Gijimu (S2)
Light:
Duessel (FE8) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3): His ultimate's a ranged tech IIRC. Duessel could try a hand axe or javelin or something but lol duessel with a crappy weapon.
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Zell Dincht (FF8): Never mind, she hits harder than I thought. She can get around an FF8 limit.
Skelly (CC) vs Locke Cole (FF6)
-
Godlike:
Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Deamoned (BoF5)
Mewtwo (PKMN) vs Zenon (Disgaea 2)
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Erikia (FE8)
Tibarn (FE9) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)
Heavy:
Zero (MMXCM) vs Reno (FF7)
Jerin (Lufia 1) vs Mithos Yggdrasil (ToS)
Daos (Lufias) vs Serge (CC)- Sinistal versus painful Holy damage.
Asellus (Saga) vs Angelo (DQ8)
Middle:
Lich (FF1) vs Flay Gunnar (MK)
Beatrice (WA3) vs Shinjiro Aragaki (P3)
Roxis Rosencrantz (MK) vs Gijimu (S2)- Roxis can 2.1 turn KO...but he can't turn 2HKO here. Too bad that he's only a sliver of a fraction faster than Gijimu over 2 turns, and is slower the first.
Nash Rumack (Lunar:SSSC) vs Slade (SF2)
Light:
Kahn Marley (S2) vs Garet (GS)- Kahn can't deal with the statuses, I think?
Duessel (FE8) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Zell Dincht (FF8)
Skelly (CC) vs Locke Cole (FF6)
-
Godlike:
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Eirika (FE8) - Monkey more or less summed up my thoughts here, although replace "average FE speed" with "not quite fast enough to not be doubled by Eirika", because it takes the likes of Emily or Alena for me to not see Eirika doubling with a Killing Edge. Being forced to incite counters just doesn't work here, not when Eirika's threatening with a crit and nearly two-turning even with the damage drop.
Heavy:
Zero (MMXCM) vs Reno (FF7) - Who is faster here?
Daos (Lufias) vs Serge (CC) - May not OHKO, doesn't have to, because he goes first. Ow, Holy weakness off that defense makes even the HP not matter.
Asellus (Saga) vs Angelo (DQ8) - Immunes ID, then MCs and makes Angelo weep. Tough luck, man. =/
Middle:
Lich (FF1) vs Flay Gunnar (MK) - Tornado Hold.
Beatrice (WA3) vs Shinjiro Aragaki (P3) - Sweet dreams, Shinjiro.
Roxis Rosenkrantz (MK) vs Gijimu (S2) - Gijimu goes first and 2HKOs. Ow. This fight sorta doesn't matter much, though, whoever wins is Nash-bait.
Nash Rumack (Lunar:SSSC) vs Slade (SF2) - Status goodness.
Light:
Duessel (FE8) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3) - Christ.
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Zell Dincht (FF8) - Cryo Shell x2 = Zell gently grazes Mia, as if he wasn't doing that to begin with. Afterwards, she dicks around forever until a double and decisively wins.
Skelly (CC) vs Locke Cole (FF6) - My kneejerk is that Locke is goddamned terrible.
-
Godlike:
Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Deamoned (BoF5) - Zophar. Having at least two eyes allows him to win here. Deamoned's lack of depth perception prevents him from moving around enough to avoid Zophar's attacks, meaning he can't move up properly.
Mewtwo (PKMN) vs Zenon (Disgaea 2) - Zenon. Can move around the battle field. Even though he's part fish, he resists fire, ice, wind...which makes him...well, hard to quantify in Pokemon terms, but certainly not weak to Psychic. Mewtwo wants RBY form, but there's no range on that form's attacks, and he can't (or she can't) move in the battle, so Zenon can stand at a distance and fire off whatever he wants.
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Erikia (FE8) - Citan. All he has to do is ask her if she'll give him her weapons. She will, then she won't be able to fight due to lacking weapons, and she can't even use her breasts to fight back since they're so small. Also, since the rules say it's only the person fighting, I don't let her use her horse, which means she's either limited to unpromoted form, or loses stats (most likely speed and possibly defense, which hurts like hell here).
Tibarn (FE9) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs) - Yuri. In the world of birds, the bigger wings tend to mean great power. Dark Seraphim has much, much larger wings that Tibarn. Tibarn is out-manned and forfeits.
Heavy:
Zero (MMXCM) vs Reno (FF7) - Zero. Both have equally short names, but Zero has the advantage of using a sword. And a gun. Reno has lost to a SCC with a person using just a gun and just a sword. Since Zero can use both, I don't see how Reno has a chance here.
Jerin (Lufia 1) vs Mithos Yggdrasil (ToS) - Mithos. Much easier for him to strike her at her weakest - her innate feminine misgivings. Jerin as an elf is androgynous mostly - the problem is that the feminine desire to be a woman overrides that. Mithos looks much prettier in a dress, and once Jerin sees that, she'll go home and eat ice cream and get fat, because she can't stand being so unloved and confused for a man. The female mentality comes first, and that's her weakness here.
Daos (Lufias) vs Serge (CC) - Daos. Look at how fucking huge he is in battle. Seriously, he also has gigantic armour-plated cape-mail! Serge needs loads of stuff to take down the Time Devourer, which is about the same size. And that thing didn't have armour. Serge's weapon doesn't even touch Daos' divine skin, meaning he never takes damage. Meanwhile, Serge wears fisherman's clothes. Those protect from nothing.
Asellus (Saga) vs Angelo (DQ8) - Angelo. Asellus is a woman, but canon lesbian? Ok, assuming she is, Angelo is too hot - he can still woo her slightly, and I was under the impression she was more bisexual. As long as Angelo use protection (and I'm certain he has the spells for it), he's fine here in the dominating position.
Middle:
Lich (FF1) vs Flay Gunnar (MK) - Flay. 64-bit vs. 8-bit. This is no contest at all. Lich can't even see him due to being colour-blinded to such a small spectrum.
Beatrice (WA3) vs Shinjiro Aragaki (P3) - Beatrice. Shinjiro has a problem with recurring nightmares secondary to the disaster. Beatrice will simply get in his head and cause his persona to go out of control. Or simply modulate his memories so that he thinks she looks like the mother, driving him into a psychotic rage that causes his persona to destroy him.
Roxis Rosencrantz (MK) vs Gijimu (S2) - Roxis. Gijimu < Freed Y, by the sole fact that Freed gets laid. Guess why Freed gets laid? He has glasses. Guess what Roxis has that Gijimu has not? Glasses. They go out for a night on the town, and Roxis gets all the ass he wants, leaving Gijimu at home with a moist towel.
Nash Rumack (Lunar:SSSC) vs Slade (SF2) - Nash. Mithril conducts electricity just fine, thank you. Stupid rat, bringing metal to an electrical fight.
Light:
Kahn Marley (S2) vs Garet (GS) - Kahn. One of the issues with GS is that the characters are not used to voices, particularly loud ones. The game is rather soft. Kahn meanwhile has magical yelling and screaming. Once Garet is deafened by that, he can't ask any more annoying questions, meaning he's out of a job, homeless on the street giving handjobs for crack.
Duessel (FE8) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3) - Frank. Since bowling balls don't exist in the FE world, Duessel will not be prepared for it. He'll walk his horse over it, and it will trip and fall down, giving him a concussion.
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Zell Dincht (FF8) - Zell. Punching > slapping, and Zell can punch Gods - Mia only slaps Nash. Zell also beats the shit out of women (Adel, Edea, Fujin, etc.), so no hitting girls problems here.
Skelly (CC) vs Locke Cole (FF6) - Locke. Steals Skelly's pants. This might not be something problematic in a normal situation, but this will expose the fact that Skelly has the pubic bone structure of woman, which no one knew about. Public humiliation is not something gay undead clowns enjoy.
Do yourself a favour and try not to take me seriously >_>
-
Godlike:
Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Deamoned (BoF5)
Heavy:
Zero (MMXCM) vs Reno (FF7)
Daos (Lufias) vs Serge (CC)
Asellus (Saga) vs Angelo (DQ8) - Status? Gut, at least. Bounce has short duration issues IIRC. ID... might change this, but don't respect Kathwack enough.
Middle:
Lich (FF1) vs Flay Gunnar (MK) - Unlike Pyramid, I think I can see Aroma Material blocking Hold. Good enough.
Nash Rumack (Lunar:SSSC) vs Slade (SF2) - Sorrow.
Light:
Duessel (FE8) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3) - Isn't Frank. IS NOT FRANK. I REFUSE TO ACCEPT ANY OTHER ANSWER.
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Zell Dincht (FF8) - Besides, Mia's got a champ run in this field.
Skelly (CC) vs Locke Cole (FF6) - FF6a may tilt. Need to think. Still not buying him outslugging Mia, though, so.
-
I sorta said it in my own post, but Kathwhack doesn't matter unless you disallow storebought statusblockers. SaGa Frontier has a storebought ID immunity accessory.
EDIT: Not that it seems to matter much so far, but the constant ID mentions sorta nagged at me.
-
Godlike:
Mewtwo (PKMN) vs Zenon (Disgaea 2): Mewtwo's kinda fight. No vote though.
Tibarn (FE9) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs): EDIT: Not 2HKOd already, going first and using For Everyone exacerbates. For Tomorrow hitting the weaker defense and draining does it from there.
Heavy:
Jerin (Lufia 1) vs Mithos Yggdrasil (ToS): Big Yggdrasil has a 2HKO pysical combo. No vote again.
Middle:
Beatrice (WA3) vs Shinjiro Aragaki (P3): Lalala sleep.
-
Snow: I always forget about that, right. >_>
-
Mewtwo (PKMN) vs Zenon (Disgaea 2)- Zenon, I think
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Erikia (FE8)- okay, how did Eirika beat Lucia, who's boss form uses magic that is unevadable except by a spell and can act 3 times in a battle? Citan can double Eirika, and I dont allow FE counters anymore. I just add them to the damage average.
Tibarn (FE9) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)- Yuri
Heavy:
Jerin (Lufia 1) vs Mithos Yggdrasil (ToS)- Mithos
Daos (Lufias) vs Serge (CC)- Serge
Asellus (Saga) vs Angelo (DQ8)- Asellus
Middle:
Lich (FF1) vs Flay Gunnar (MK)- Not lich. Flaya
Roxis Rosencrantz (MK) vs Gijimu (S2)- Gijimu
Nash Rumack (Lunar:SSSC) vs Slade (SF2)- Nash
Light:
Kahn Marley (S2) vs Garet (GS)- Garet
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Zell Dincht (FF8)- Mia
Skelly (CC) vs Locke Cole (FF6)- Locke. Skelly is awful.
-
Godlike:
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Eirika (FE8) - Monkey more or less summed up my thoughts here, although replace "average FE speed" with "not quite fast enough to not be doubled by Eirika", because it takes the likes of Emily or Alena for me to not see Eirika doubling with a Killing Edge. Being forced to incite counters just doesn't work here, not when Eirika's threatening with a crit and nearly two-turning even with the damage drop.
I'm assuming you mean pre-haste, since Citan's speed after that is rather insane?
-
Godlike:
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Eirika (FE8) - Monkey more or less summed up my thoughts here, although replace "average FE speed" with "not quite fast enough to not be doubled by Eirika", because it takes the likes of Emily or Alena for me to not see Eirika doubling with a Killing Edge. Being forced to incite counters just doesn't work here, not when Eirika's threatening with a crit and nearly two-turning even with the damage drop.
I'm assuming you mean pre-haste, since Citan's speed after that is rather insane?
I don't see Renki affecting AS at all.
EDIT: To elaborate, to me it's not a raw speed stat buff, but a simple CTB gauge speed doubler. In this case, I don't see it affecting Citan's doubling or being doubled in a FE sense. I see FF Haste as pretty much the same.
-
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Eirika (FE8) - See Haste as working fine to make sure Eirika's the one being doubled. Deathblows being basically undodgable helps make sure that Citan gets the damage in.
Re the Killing Edge hype: The stat topic lists the Killing Edge as doing 17 damage for Eirika. Citan has good defense which might reduce that, but let's ignoring that. 17*3 = 51 damage. The *Silver* damage average, which is lower than the average with the Killing Edges and the crits, lists 60.93 HP as the kill point. If you see Eirika as still doubling, 51+17= 68 damage... but Citan has 1.21 PCHP, so his FE killpoint is 74 HP anyway. So a fully healed Citan only fears a Killing Edge double crit... which admittedly is disturbingly possible (.43^2 = 18.5%), but overall I'm not seeing much merit to Killing Edge hype here. Eirika should stick with Sieglinde, which on a crit splatters Citan for sure and puts more pressure on when it doesn't crit.
Tibarn (FE9) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs) - This is actually pretty interesting... So Tibarn goes first, doubles Yuri. Yuri can change to Amon and Mind/Body Revival, but he's probably still getting doubled if he does that. So he does parasitic healing as Dark Seraphim? But Tibarn is probably getting the next turn anyway, and he might be able to finish the job even through it? Not sure the stat buff immediately is enough for Yuri to survive three hits here. I suspect it's Yuri, but he hangs on by the barest of margins here.
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Zell Dincht (FF8) - Ah, fun, more FF8 debates.
Okay, first off, I know that many people don't allow waiting in the DL, and it admittedly leads to some weird situations when both sides can wait. Personally, I allow it, especially when one side can freely wait and the other has to use their turns. This means that Zell never risks a double turn here- if one is coming up, Zell simply sits there with the menu up, doesn't take a turn, lets Mia go, then hits her afterward. Not really useful for slugfests since it actually hands out the double turn earlier, but great here. So, Mia can't just screw around and wait for the turns to fall her way; Zell can waste time too. Either Zell slowly punches her to death at 1 damage a pop, or she knocks Zell into limit range. And once Zell limits, well, see write-up, he's got more powerful Duel moves to break her defense. (There's some YouTube vids of a no-junctions, no-GFs FF8 playthrough, and it's actually worth it against high-Def enemies to do this.)
Second. Let's assume no waiting. The Lunar Agility average is funky - it's 79 with all Dragon Cane, 81 with half & half, and 83 with all Wind Cane. Mia's Agility with the Wind Cane is 89. Compared to the all-Wind Cane average (what I personally would use when Mia is using the Wind Cane, at least), that's 1.07 avg. speed.
If you take this turn-based speed literally, then it's on turn 15 that she doubles someone with average speed. I personally don't respect turn-based speed very much as far as double-turning goes, and would average it to the mean to get 1.035 avg. speed; now the double doesn't happen until turn 29. At this length of time, there's actually a fairly noticeable risk of Zell getting lucky on criticals. If you don't allow luck junctions, it doesn't happen quite as often, but since Zell does get one hit in with only one level of Ice Shell up, it might just be possible for Zell to smack his way through Ice Shelled Mia anyway. I have no idea how likely this is, but might be worth consideration regardless.
-
Mia probably isn't bothering with the Wind Cane. She can get around limit range if she's not using it, one Zell attack is 35% if you take FF 8 pure physical damage at pure face value, and Mia cuts off 28% on an average physical after One Shell (which puts Zell at 7%). She can take one pure hit from him, and still laugh at his damage afterward, and then manipulate enough to blow past a limit.
-
Godlike:
Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Deamoned (BoF5): Doesn't need Fate Storm!
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Erikia (FE8): Counters kinda spell bad news for Citan here. With his healing only offsetting one attack, where is he making headway? Even if he constantly tripleturns (he doesn't), he has to spend one turn on healing Eirika's turn, one attack, and another turn healing from the counter. Toss in the turns wasted at the start of the battle and refreshing Haste, the fact that Eirika will dodge him sometimes (he's accurate but not even game-best?), and yeah, sooner or later a crit will come.
Tibarn (FE9) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs): I guess. I'm really sick of Yuri.
Heavy:
Zero (MMXCM) vs Reno (FF7): Whoever goes first wins, need to look that up.
Daos (Lufias) vs Serge (CC): Holy elemental physical hype? Eh, sure. May the winner fry next round. ^_^
Middle:
Lich (FF1) vs Flay Gunnar (MK): No paralysis blocker.
Roxis Rosencrantz (MK) vs Gijimu (S2): I can't think of many times I'd disagree with both Dhyer and Snow, so...
Nash Rumack (Lunar:SSSC) vs Slade (SF2): Awesome. Fast statusin'.
Light:
Duessel (FE8) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3): Survives long enough to Double.
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Zell Dincht (FF8): Doesn't take too much to beat Zell, and Mia is more of a Middle anyway. Also what the hell, Mia has damage control and isn't far below average damage at all, she blasts through limit range. Period.
Skelly (CC) vs Locke Cole (FF6): Same as Locke vs. Macha + LoneBalloon hype!
-
Godlike:
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Eirika (FE8) - Monkey more or less summed up my thoughts here, although replace "average FE speed" with "not quite fast enough to not be doubled by Eirika", because it takes the likes of Emily or Alena for me to not see Eirika doubling with a Killing Edge. Being forced to incite counters just doesn't work here, not when Eirika's threatening with a crit and nearly two-turning even with the damage drop.
I'm assuming you mean pre-haste, since Citan's speed after that is rather insane?
I don't see Renki affecting AS at all.
EDIT: To elaborate, to me it's not a raw speed stat buff, but a simple CTB gauge speed doubler. In this case, I don't see it affecting Citan's doubling or being doubled in a FE sense. I see FF Haste as pretty much the same.
Um...why wouldn't it?
*Attack Speed = speed + con - weapon weight
13 + 0 - 0 = Citan's Attack Speed
I could maybe understand your views on Citan doubling. But him being doubled, with Senkei up. (2x speed)
-
Um...why wouldn't it?
*Attack Speed = speed + con - weapon weight
13 + 0 - 0 = Citan's Attack Speed
I could maybe understand your views on Citan doubling. But him being doubled, with Senkei up. (2x speed)
Elaborating on his point; he sees it not as increasing Citan's speed stat, but affecting the turn gauge directly; sort of like how Sephiroth's wall doesn't do a damned thing to his defense stats, just directly cuts attack damage in half.
-
Specifically, there are two types of speed relevant to this discussion: FE speed and turn speed.
All FE characters have average turn speed, and varying FE speeds. Characters from other games have turn speed only... by convention, many of us assign them a FE speed based on their turn speed stat. (Monkey however would give all these characters average FE speed, as would a few others... interps vary.)
There's nothing to suggest Senkei doubles FE speed, though. In FE terms, casting Senkei is like having a Bard play for Citan every turn. This doesn't let him FE double. It DOES let him CTB double.
Anybody who is hyping Senkei as giving Citan FOUR times as many attacks (i.e. letting him FE double AND giving him CTB doubles) is being pretty silly if you ask me! I do see it giving him twice as many attacks, but that doesn't really help him (especially since, just as having a Bard play for him would, it means he incurs twice as many counters).
-
On the Citan and Erikia fight.
Erikia's overall durability is just below average. (below average HP, a little above average DEF and RES) Without healing, assuming she get's critical (Killer Edge) on her second or third attack, she still only 4HKO's average durability at best. Citan has about 123% physical durability, so she can only 5HKO him. Her only hope is for a 4HKO, but she needs at least two criticals in her first four attacks to do so. (N > C > N > C) And that's not happening in the time it takes Citan to KO her. (3HKO - 3 CWs - 142.2% damage) So even in the best case (N > C > N > DEAD!) it doesn't end well for her. And this (^) is all without even factoring in Citan's healing. 94% (47% w/o LS or ED) of his full HP.
If you see DB's triggering counters, it still wouldn't matter since healing, against her 5-6HKO damage, gives him all the time he needs to KO.
-
Given how she still 3HKOs handily with Sieglinde, though, that doesn't matter much. He has to heal every other time he attacks. Now suddenly seeing him getting countered (and honestly, the game doesn't give you evidence why you -shouldn't- from what I remember) is very relevant.
-
Godlike:
Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Deamoned (BoF5)
Mewtwo (PKMN) vs Zenon (Disgaea 2)- He's built to smash Zenon.
Citan Uzuki (XG) vs Erikia (FE8)- Slaughter. Erikia doesn't double unless you see everyone as average FE AS, doesn't 2HKO, and is 2HKOed back. Evasion helps but not enough, with his massive speed advantage.
Heavy:
Zero (MMXCM) vs Reno (FF7)
Daos (Lufias) vs Serge (CC)- 2HKO.
Asellus (Saga) vs Angelo (DQ8)- Leaning Asellus. She can heal lock him down with something fairly cheap that inflicts status. Buff won't last long enough or be good enough to tip that.
Middle:
Lich (FF1) vs Flay Gunnar (MK)
Roxis Rosencrantz (MK) vs Gijimu (S2)
Nash Rumack (Lunar:SSSC) vs Slade (SF2)- Slade's faster and 2HKOS but that isn't enough.
Light:
Kahn Marley (S2) vs Garet (GS)- Status/damage/durablity.
Duessel (FE8) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Zell Dincht (FF8)- Not worth a comment.
Skelly (CC) vs Locke Cole (FF6)- Same as last week.
-
Beatrice (WA3) vs Shinjiro Aragaki (P3) - Sleep doesn't exist in P3. Therefore, Shinjiro's getting his ass handed to him by Nightmare.
...did I ever mention how cruel an attack that reapplies a debilitating status is?
-
Now suddenly seeing him getting countered (and honestly, the game doesn't give you evidence why you -shouldn't- from what I remember)
Festive wind and rare earth look like spells, despite being physical HDBs. That's enough for me. (Crystal water and haze of fire I would see getting countered because they're actually sword strikes.)
-
Festive Wind and Rare Earth involve him run-slashing the enemy through, if I remember right (I'm pretty sure on Festive Wind, not so much on Rare Earth, but). I... don't think I'd see that as not melee. And I dunno, most HDBs look like magic to the point that flavor would make 2/3 of the cast ranged in some sense. Dunno if I buy that.
-
Festive Wind is "slam into enemy really fast, knock it into the air, random kanji, sheath sword and hop back as they fall and take damage". Rumble Earth is "backwards death stab into enemy, cherry blossoms appear from nowhere". For completion, Fire Haze is slashes -> burning rings of fire!, Crystal Water is floating levetation slashes.
It's probably worth noting for the sake of this argument that, whatever the deathblows themselves class as, the leadups are still basic physicals and might trigger a counter even if the rest of the attack, flavor-wise, seems like it shouldn't. And of course that those are rather a lot more evadable than DBs, so Eirika's evade still loses him some damage... just, maybe 10% or so, so probably not enough to shut down the 2HKO.
-
Yeah, I've never seen Citan's Hyper DBs, but it doesn't matter - there's a clear melee portion to the attack (the leadup) which is enough to trigger a counter.
-
Heck, it's not even like he can just safely sit back and build up his stock guage. He needs to make the tapping attack in order to get the rest built up (Though it will make him oddly awesome against SRW enemies with HP Regen L)
-
Given how she still 3HKOs handily with Sieglinde, though, that doesn't matter much. He has to heal every other time he attacks. Now suddenly seeing him getting countered (and honestly, the game doesn't give you evidence why you -shouldn't- from what I remember) is very relevant.
Which guarantees she goes last, and gets doubled with Senkei. (plus that crit goes down to about 10%) And she still does less than 40% damage to him! His healing (even without a LS) is around 47% of max HP.
If he doubles, she gets maybe 4 attacks (with counters) off before she's KO'd, and 5-6 if you don't let him double. He wins either way.
-
Given how she still 3HKOs handily with Sieglinde, though, that doesn't matter much. He has to heal every other time he attacks. Now suddenly seeing him getting countered (and honestly, the game doesn't give you evidence why you -shouldn't- from what I remember) is very relevant.
Which guarantees she goes last, and gets doubled with Senkei. (plus that crit goes down to about 10%) And she still does less than 40% damage to him! His healing (even without a LS) is around 47% of max HP.
She would go last regardless. Attack Speed is not CTB speed, she's average. And people already clarified why I think that having a pure CTB gauge modifier affect FE AS is silly. Not to mention that CTB doubles don't help much when you're triggering counters. Also, she doubles him with a Killing Edge, so he's risking too much with the crit odds. Everytime he attacks, he's going to need to heal at least once, and the uneven damage (he never knows when he'll get critted) means he can -not- afford to not be at full health unless he wants to dance with death, because he only knows he won't die if he's at full health (not even then if a double-crit happens, but that's not likely to happen).
Also, Dealing 47% to average means she 3HKOs Citan (123% PC HP). If he attacks and she gets a turn, he needs to heal twice right afterwards. He attacks again and gets shredded. He just doesn't have a lot of leeway there.
-
She would go last regardless. Attack Speed is not CTB speed, she's average. And people already clarified why I think that having a pure CTB gauge modifier affect FE AS is silly.
Once again. I know that I didn't articulate this well enough last time.
Attack Speed = speed + (con - weapon weight)
But only when Weapon Weight is more than Constitution.
If it isn't, then 'Attack Speed = speed'
In other words
Attack speed:
Weapon Weight > Con = Speed + (Con - Weapon Weight)
Weapon Weight < Con = Speed
Weapon Weight = Con, = Speed
It's utterly insane to view speed and attack speed as different stats. There's no semblance of reality in that. At most it could be viewed not as a base stat, but a compilation stat. And then only in certain circumstances.
Also, she doubles him with a Killing Edge,
How does she (132% average, t3rd) double Citan (140% average, 1st). She would need to actually be faster than him to do so in FE?? Senkei makes this not even a question.
Not to mention that CTB doubles don't help much when you're triggering counters.
so he's risking too much with the crit odds. Everytime he attacks, he's going to need to heal at least once, and the uneven damage (he never knows when he'll get critted) means he can -not- afford to not be at full health unless he wants to dance with death, because he only knows he won't die if he's at full health (not even then if a double-crit happens, but that's not likely to happen).
I went over this (Killer Edge) before.
Erikia's overall durability is just below average. (below average HP, a little above average DEF and RES) Without healing, assuming she get's critical (Killer Edge) on her second or third attack, she still only 4HKO's average durability at best. Citan has about 123% physical durability, so she can only 5HKO him. Her only hope is for a 4HKO, but she needs at least two criticals in her first four attacks to do so. (N > C > N > C) And that's not happening in the time it takes Citan to KO her. (3HKO - 3 CWs - 142.2% damage) So even in the best case (N > C > N > DEAD!) it doesn't end well for her. And this (^) is all without even factoring in Citan's healing. 94% (47% w/o LS or ED) of his full HP.
If you see DB's triggering counters, it still wouldn't matter since healing, against her 5-6HKO damage, gives him all the time he needs to KO.
Also, Dealing 47% to average means she 3HKOs Citan (123% PC HP). If he attacks and she gets a turn, he needs to heal twice right afterwards. He attacks again and gets shredded. He just doesn't have a lot of leeway there.
48% to average, but less than 40% to him. He heals 47% of his max HP.
Citan - Senkei (100%)
Erikia - attack (60%)
Citan - heal (100%)
Citan - attack (60%)
Erikia - attack (20%)
Citan - heal (67%)
Citan - heal (100%)
Erikia - attack (60%)
Citan - attack (20%)
Citan - attack (KO)
-
It's utterly insane to view speed and attack speed as different stats. There's no semblance of reality in that. At most it could be viewed not as a base stat, but a compilation stat. And then only in certain circumstances.
I think you're missing the point that CTB speed is NOT the same as FE speed. Just like Disgaea speed is only evasion, and does not affect turn order at all. Just because the stat is named "speed" doesn't mean it's the same "speed" as in another game.
Hell, FE speed does more for evasion than CTB (or even turn based) speed, so it'd almost make more sense to check doubles against the target's evasion instead of CTB speed. But I doubt anyone would do that.
-
Actually I've certainly considered doing so! The problem is that evade isn't a standardised stat across casts.
-
Actually, I've considered letting characters double or not based not on relation to average speed, but a speed representative of in-game enemy speeds. For example, Ephraim misses a double against average in the DL, despite doubling the whole damn game in FE8.
I think 17-18 is good for FE7, and 15-16 for FE8 if I do this. Still thinking on FE9, probably same as 7.
-
The problem with basing a cast on how much they crush their enemies is that it does tend to lead to case where games with really scrubby difficulty now start producing better duellers than they ought. Also know as, all hail Justin, King of Godlike.
-
The idea there Excal is to take the damage of doublers as double for the average, and take the DURABILITY of those who are doubled by enemies as half (this should be exceedingly rare against enemy stats). This results in something more akin to in-game.
And I'm pretty sure everyone in FE8 doubles averagish enemy stats, even taken a bit higher than average. FE8 enemies really suck and outside the Demon King everything is pretty dang reliably doubled.
-
The idea there Excal is to take the damage of doublers as double for the average, and take the DURABILITY of those who are doubled by enemies as half (this should be exceedingly rare against enemy stats). This results in something more akin to in-game.
And I'm pretty sure everyone in FE8 doubles averagish enemy stats, even taken a bit higher than average. FE8 enemies really suck and outside the Demon King everything is pretty dang reliably doubled.
You nailed it, and... you're probably right.
Which leads to superfast characters having evasion as their biggest benefit in the DL with the raised damage averages for FE8. Hrm.
-
And I'm pretty sure everyone in FE8 doubles averagish enemy stats
Offhand, that's not true, especially at 20/12. Garcia very obviously doesn't, same with Dozla, Duessel, and EDIT: Gilliam, and certain interps of Myrrh.
EDIT2: Average AS of enemies at Last Hope is 12.7. Note that you are below endgame levels here, so you can argue this number should go higher! On the other hand in practice it goes lower because monsters suck and only Deathgoyles, Gwyllgis, and Maelduins have anything approaching speed (i.e. they break the human average). I guess 12.7 works. I'd say "Weight bosses more heavilly" but most lategame bosses are slower than this so whatever.
-
Clearly I need to use the suckier FE8 PCs more.
Or not.
Anyways, I think this interp rather badly hurts Eirika in general, since her damage goes from being damned solid to fairly unspecial. It lets her not be doubled here I suppose, which leaves it to a question of how good she is seen at dodging/countering Citan's attacks.
-
It hurts her in general, because her damage is no longer amazing, but it doesn't hurt her here because she's already not doubling Citan to many interps (not if you're Monkey/CK granted). Her one-hit damage improves some because of those 4-5 PCs who now just have horrible damage, which might cause more issues for Citan's healing.
(Also I have some problems with the interp in general because it does not reflect how bad speeds like Ross' and Kyle's are in-game where they fail to double a huge number of faster enemies. 17 AS fails to double 45 of 97 enemies in Last Hope, for instance. Even 20 AS fails to double more than a quarter of the enemies (25/97).
EDIT: Though it is true that once you hit 23 AS, you're basically in the clear. On the other hand, I can justify a difference between 23 and 26+ in the DL because if you're only 23 at endgame, you were likely having issues doubling SMs in Last Hope. Unless, of course, you're Ephraim, who just doesn't like the DL. Bad DL!)
-
It hurts her in general, because her damage is no longer amazing, but it doesn't hurt her here because she's already not doubling Citan to many interps (not if you're Monkey/CK granted). Her one-hit damage improves some because of those 4-5 PCs who now just have horrible damage, which might cause more issues for Citan's healing.
(Also I have some problems with the interp in general because it does not reflect how bad speeds like Ross' and Kyle's are in-game where they fail to double a huge number of faster enemies. 17 AS fails to double 45 of 97 enemies in Last Hope, for instance. Even 20 AS fails to double more than a quarter of the enemies (25/97).
EDIT: Though it is true that once you hit 23 AS, you're basically in the clear. On the other hand, I can justify a difference between 23 and 26+ in the DL because if you're only 23 at endgame, you were likely having issues doubling SMs in Last Hope. Unless, of course, you're Ephraim, who just doesn't like the DL. Bad DL!)
You could give Ross/Kyle types a chance of doubling equal to the proportion of enemies they'd actually double (So, 55%ish for those two).
And I've thought about doing this before, but was scared off by the large amount of work it would entail to get the enemy stats!
-
You could always consider the opponent's speed with doubles, just compared to enemy speed averages instead of PC speed averages. Kind of like Jude's Assault Buster taking the opponent's speed compared to enemy speed values.
So someone who barely doubles average enemy speed would still fail to double people above average speed.
-
Yeah, I've never seen Citan's Hyper DBs, but it doesn't matter - there's a clear melee portion to the attack (the leadup) which is enough to trigger a counter.
I have to object to this real quick. If someone begins an attack chain at melee range and it chains as part of the move into something that either knocks the enemy away or puts the user at a range, then a (melee) counter should not be triggered. Unless you view the counter as interrupting any kind of attack chaining, which would be ... silly.
XF Secutor's move that knocks an enemy back comes to mind. Or else some Tales characters have something like this I'm sure.
Obviously this doesn't apply to games where range/distance have no meaning, ala most turn-based games and Xenogears in this case.
-
I have to object to this real quick. If someone begins an attack chain at melee range and it chains as part of the move into something that either knocks the enemy away or puts the user at a range, then a (melee) counter should not be triggered. Unless you view the counter as interrupting any kind of attack chaining, which would be ... silly.
XF Secutor's move that knocks an enemy back comes to mind. Or else some Tales characters have something like this I'm sure.
Presea and other's Beast comes to mind; don't see how you're counterattacking when the move itself ends with you sliding a half dozen character lengths across the ground. On the other hand, that's actual in-game effect vs. something that's purely of the animation itself, so I can see something like Citan's deathblows being different.