The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: superaielman on June 19, 2009, 05:15:41 AM
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Alright, here's the final barrier to what gets into the RPGDL. There's three questions...
1. Have you played this game?
2. Rank it?
3. Why or why not?
Some good reasons not to rank a game...
A. Not enough voters at the RPGDL.
B. Too hard to compare them to other RPG characters (assuming you've seen them that is).
C. Not interesting enough (i.e. boring in a duel and not much to write about them)
D. Other (please specify)
2/3 support (66.66...%) is needed for a game to be ranked. Each character in the game also needs 66%- IE if Wild ARMs 5 is ranked with 95% of the voters but only 15% support ranking Volsung and the rest no/abstain on him, he won't be ranked.
The games this time:
Wild ARMs 5
Persona 4
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Wild ARMs 5
No (Just started the intro, that's it)
Abstain
I'd like to play the game before weighing in. No to Volsung, no opinion otherwise.
Persona 4
Yes
Yes
PC cast only. The numbers are good all around, especially internal. I see no reason to wait on it. Bosses are late and a few are spoilers, so waiting on them doesn't bother me. I have no issue splitting the game's ranking, doubly so when I'm iffy on a couple of the boss ideas in the first place.
Edit: Changing Souji vote to a yes.
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Wild ARMs 5
No (Just started the intro, that's it)
Abstain
I'd like to play the game before weighing in. No to Volsung, no opinion otherwise.
Persona 4
Yes
Yes
PC cast only. The numbers are good all around, especially internal. I see no reason to wait on it. Bosses are late and a few are spoilers, so waiting on them doesn't bother me. I have no issue splitting the game's ranking, doubly so when I'm iffy on a couple of the boss ideas in the first place.
These are solid reasons and the bosses can always be added later.
EDIT: Yes to Souji.
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Well, between Elf and Pyro, I've been reminded of what I was missing!
Wild ARMs 5
Yes
Yes
Yes to all PCs, Sentinels... know what? I can go with holding Double Action to only one at a time, and Volsung's got a vaguely usable form before that - heck, I'd almost allow Legio Volsung. So, Yes to Volsung too.
EDIT: Ice Queen and Nightburn too!
Persona 4
Partial
Yes
I like to avoid split ranks, but now that it's here, rank PCs, 8-bit, and killer, abstain on others.
EDIT2: I'll give Soji the OK. Armageddon was my big objection to Minato; Soji however loses to... probably a decent number of people even with access to every Persona. Specifically, no way Insta-Heal prevents game-over status from killing him, and is on Personas that get wrecked in other ways.
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Wild Arms 5:
Played.
Rank the PCs, Nightburn, the Sentinels, and Ice Queen Avril. (Ranking her seems slightly odd but not ranking her creates huge Avril votesplits, and not ranking Avril just rubs me wrong plotwise.) No to Volsung.
Persona 4:
Not played. Abstain on the rank as a whole, but no to any bosses. Sounds like the game's one sure-fire boss rank is a good call for what we did with Kato. EDIT: No Souji.
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Wild Arms 5:
Played
Rank PCs, Nightburn, Sentinels. I'll abstain on IQA for now and think about it later. NEB may have the right idea here though. And honestly it's essentially what we did with Fei and Id.
Pity Volsung has that infinite turn thing hyped for him. He'd be a surefire rank otherwise.
Edit: Not abstaining with IQA, rank her separately from Avril herself.
Persona 4:
Played, loved.
Rank PCs. No to bosses. Straightforward in why this is.
Are we thinking about Souji here? I'm not against ranking him myself, but I have a feeling everyone else is going for "no" and not thinking that he qualifies as a PC.
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Forgot about Souji, thanks. He can burn.
Edit: The irony, it burns. I blame OK.
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WA 5
1. Yes
2. Yes to PCs, Nightburn, Ice Queen Avril (Or else you'll be having legitimate Light-Godlike vote splits, not to mention that IQA certainly stands out as a character), and the Sentinels. No to Volsung
P4
1. Yes
2. Yes to non-Souji PCs, no to bosses and Souji. Necron bosses can go die, and doesn't hurt to wait on the spoiler boss considering that it's actually a legit spoiler for once.
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Persona 4
1. Have you played this game?
Yes.
2. Rank it?
I... hmmm... actually, yes. While I still have reservations about it being ranked so early, it's a game I personally really want in the DL, and it got the internal up to speed really fast. It's an interesting, colorful rank that brings solid and neat duellers to the table across the board.
For ranks, yes to PCs, including Souji. No to bosses, they're too spoilertastic to rank now. We can - and will - come back to them later.
EDIT: I changed my mind on Souji. Blame super. I -may- regret this later, but the arguing all around convinced me that he's beatable enough to not be Bluelike.
Wild ARMs 5
1. Have you played this game?
Partially, and will be sorta muscled into actually beating it if it gets ranked.
2. Rank it?
Yes. Just get over with this already. For ranks, whatever you people want except Volsung. He can die in a fire. EDIT: also, yes to IQA.
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Wild Arms 5:
1) Yes
2) Yes to PCs, Sentinels, and Nightburn. Abstain on Ice Queen Avril. No to Volsung.
3) I wanna say that possible medium confusion would be a good reason not to rank the PCs, but honestly WA3 seems to do well enough. That and my real objection is simply hating this game's plot and characters with a passion, which isn't really a good basis for voting against it.
Persona 4:
1) Yes
2) Yes to non-main PCs, 8-bit hero, and Kunino Sagiri. Abstain on Ameno Sagiri and Mother.
3) I don't think ranking the two bosses I voted yes for will be too spoilery, and I think there should be some representation from the bosses here. I don't think it would be that big of a deal to rank the others either, but I'm willing to wait on those.
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For once I've played the games being ranked!
Wild ARMs 5
1. YES!
2. YES! PCs, IQA, Nightburn, Sentinels. No Volsung.
Persona 4
1. YES!
2. YES! PCs, no bosses yet. Izanagi Souji for Puny! ::Is shot::
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Wild Arms 5
Played it? Yes.
Rank it? Yes.
Who? PCs, Ice Queen Avril, Nightburn, Sentinels, and... yeah, I'm okay with Volsung. I wouldn't be hyping the infinite turn ability. And it'd be nice to see some more High Godlikes apart from Myria and Ghaleon.
Persona 4
Played it? Nope.
Rank it? I'd rather wait one more ranking period. It's obviously a strong enough game to get this far, and it seems like people are only supporting a partial rank anyway. I'd rather wait until the bosses are less of a spoiler so that the whole game can be ranked all at once. As it is, the game is going to be one of the main ranks -this- period AND -next- period where everyone starts hyping "Rank FWs P4 Bosses."
That said, I have no problem with seeing it -all- ranked now so that it doesn't have to be stretched across two ranking periods.
Who? PCs, Izanagi Souji (Not the first SMT main to get shafted into Light, hello Serph!), Ameno Sagiri, Kunino Sagiri, 8-bit hero
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Wild ARMs 5
No
Abstain
I'd like to play the game before weighing in. No to Volsung, no opinion otherwise.
Persona 4
No
Yes
PC cast only. The numbers are good all around, especially internal. I see no reason to wait on it. Bosses are late and a few are spoilers, so waiting on them doesn't bother me. I have no issue splitting the game's ranking, doubly so when I'm iffy on a couple of the boss ideas in the first place.
Edit: Oh hell fucking no to Souji.
Flipped one answer on played it or not, otherwise Super's votes and reasonings work fine for me.
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Wild ARMs 5
1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Rank all PCs, don't rank Volsung, abstain on other bosses. Volsung can infinite turn perfectly legally after turn 3 even if you hold turn restrictions against bosses, but you better be doing that for the loads of other bosses in the DL. The odds of doing the infinite turn thing is low, but if you don't allow that, you better not allow spamming of low odds stuff for other bosses either.
Persona 4
1) Yes.
2) Abstain
3) Rank non-Souji PCs, abstain on Souji, no to the bosses, no to Rise because I know some morons are seriously going to hype that. Izanagi-only Souji is similarly silly unless you start banning other optional stuff for all the other PCs in the DL.
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WA5
1) No, and will not until I can defeat the loading screen.
2) Yes.
3) Sounds fairly similar to WA3 in a lot of ways.
Persona 4
1) Yes
2) Rank PCs, including Souji
3) While I don't agree that the bosses need to stay out right now, it's better that they all get ranked as a group than piecemeal.
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Rise only has stats, right? Like Fuuka?
She doesn't actually have anything that can damage opponents, right?
I'd like to state that my definition of 'PC' generally includes this ability in some form (Sorry FE Bards).
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Rise doesn't even get into battle. She's exactly like Fuuka.
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Rise only has stats, right? Like Fuuka?
She doesn't actually have anything that can damage opponents, right?
I'd like to state that my definition of 'PC' generally includes this ability in some form (Sorry FE Bards).
Correct.
And FE Bards are clearly PCs, and rankable. They just lose to everyone in the DL (well they tie with Augst...). So there's just no point in ranking them.
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Haven't played either game.
Both seem rankable to me, from what I've seen around the site, although I'd rather wait before ranking P4 bosses.
Seem like they're similar to their already-ranked prequels, although I'd like some chance to get hold of P4 before finding out about spoiler bosses. ;o
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WA5
1) No
2) Abstain. Only person I'm comfortable saying no to is Volsung.
P4
1) Yes
2) If it's gonna be up this season... sure.
3) Rank all non-Rise members of the PC cast, including Souji, and DW1 Hero. Abstain on Kunino-Sagiri/The Killer, no to Izanami, Disco Eye In The Sky, and Rise.
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Rise doesn't even have a battle form; I wasn't going to even count her.
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Persona 4
Ok, as you know, I've played and love the game. Whether to rank it...well, couple thoughts here. I can see both waiting a session to get them all at once, ranking them all now, and doing a partial now.
1) Waiting a session means we can still get them in and another 2 games (assuming quantity, here). We'd rank just the 7-8 party members. This is not really a huge issue - there's a minimum of 2, max of 4 bosses here (and the argument for, "if you can't say their name in a ranking topic, then don't rank them!" is...generally true, although see below). It's not a huge loss. The alternative here is to rank the the 2 that aren't significant spoilers, and hold on the other 2 that kind of are. Unfortunately, the 2 that are would be the most important bosses to rank! And the 2 remaining do have some semi-issues...although not too significant, really (and people consider them for ranking, so...).
2) All at once - for this, see MF's post in the ranking topic discussion. Just because a spoiler is ranked does not mean they need spoiled. It just means they fight (PC, boss, optional super-boss). Granted, part of the issue here is that it's hard to fit them in to this set - but just because they have a boss form doesn't mean it needs spoiled. I can come up with several spoiler-free write-ups, BtS set-ups, etc. that explain the person and spoil nothing. So, really, I don't think spoiler waiting is too much of a necessity - even with Masaji Kato, he falls in the same thing (would fit for a party member, almost, and has plot in both games...really doesn't mean anything, and him being the final boss spoils very little, to me - I mean, I could tell you, say, the final boss of FF1 is Garland, and it really doesn't spoil much - you just know he'll appear at the end).
3) All in all, partial is probably the safest bet. It's been gone over already, I just don't think it's as necessary as others indicate.
THAT HAVING BEEN SAID! As for whether to rank the game or not...it looks like it's getting in, so the "wait a session to rank the game" probably won't do much. I think the game's ready - I held out for some other SMT ranks, but it's built up a lot (and overcome WA5 which has had, what, over a year? - granted, interest). So rank it. And rank the PCs (Soji, Yosuke, Chie, Yukiko, Kanji, Rise, Teddie, Naoto) and the 4 significant bosses. As I said, I don't think you have to necessarily spoil them just because they're big, important players in the game (and 2 of them are spoilers to the extent that Zeromus is a spoiler as the final boss in FF4).
Wild ARMs 5
Damnit, I was hoping it would get snubbed another season! It's just so funny!
Anyway, played it, find it average-ish or so for the series, above-ish overall. Worthy of ranking, I'd say, for all that P4 owns it in like all categories (except for Elfiness).
But someone asked for a Volsung argument? Sure, I'll bite.
1) If you allow all forms for all characters, then Kartikeya's duel form still has the same issue. Granted, he also has another valid form without it, so...not as much of an issue, and an easy counter-example for this argument. But he'd like that duel form a lot.
2) There tends to be a consensus among a lot of people to ban "overpowered" stuff in general. People hold Ghaleon to his in-game combos (well, some...very few, actually), disallow the reflect aspect of FFT Reflect Mail (which is not something you can have in-game), disallow other boss special effects (Fallen One/Fou-Lu's skill that does the same thing to hit anything, period - most people call bosses immune to it), don't let certain boss skills work (Absorb from Yunalesca against bosses), disallow form-chains even with "agreed to" form-chain allowance rules (Jenna's form-chain, which keeps all effects in place through both battles), etc. I don't see why people wouldn't just do the same here - not allow the infinite chaining to work. It's not like people allow Tales characters to do infinite combos, right?
3) As a corollary to the above...how many people see it? I saw Kartikeya chain (just 2 of them together), but have never seen Volsung do it. Two ways to look at this:
A) If we have high vote draw from "external" sources, then it's not likely people saw the thing, and thus don't know about it. So probably won't vote like that, or alternatively vote in a different way than "normal".
B) If we have low vote draw from "external" sources, then, hey, the general "consensus" allowances noted in part 2 above hold true, and thus people won't give him that potential.
4) More a question - can someone clarify something for me? Meeple and I had this discussion, and I would also like to get other thoughts. Volsung had 2 fights before the frue final - one had the Double Attack, the other didn't. Aren't both legal, and doesn't it sound similar to the Kartikeya note above? Or am I mis-remembering the plot, and the one form was a hologram or something? If they're both deemed, "legal", then hey, just hold him to the other form, the same way other bosses have that done to them. If not? See the above stuff, with the thought that people on the "external" side won't see that "legal" difference, and possibly vote on one of the 2 out of 3 forms without it.
I really don't think this is as bad as people say it is, for the reasons above. He's plot important, and the "issue" noted I do not think is as bad as people are making it out to be.
HAVING SAID ALL THAT - rank Dean, Rebecca, Avril (no additional Ice Queen Avril - it's a force of will in her head, although I can see the point to rank them both, especially since I came up with it originally as an afterthought), Greg, Carol, Chuck, Nightburn, Persephone, Kartikeya, Elvis, Fereydoon, Volsung.
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Wild Arms 5:
1) Yes
2) Yes to PCs, Sentinels, and Nightburn. Abstain on Ice Queen Avril. No to Volsung.
3) I wanna say that possible medium confusion would be a good reason not to rank the PCs, but honestly WA3 seems to do well enough. That and my real objection is simply hating this game's plot and characters with a passion, which isn't really a good basis for voting against it.
Persona 4:
1) Yes
2) Yes to non-main PCs, 8-bit hero, and Kunino Sagiri. Abstain on Ameno Sagiri and Mother.
3) I don't think ranking the two bosses I voted yes for will be too spoilery, and I think there should be some representation from the bosses here. I don't think it would be that big of a deal to rank the others either, but I'm willing to wait on those.
Only difference is yes to Ice Queen Avril, and abstain on Killer.
Edit: Yes to Souji. There are enough people who are able to beat him to justify ranking him.
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WA5
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Rank PCs and non-Volsung bosses.
P4
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. PCs only for now, sure (minus Souji).
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Wild Arms 5
1. No
2. Abstain
3. Abstain
Persona 4
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes on PCs. Abstain on bosses until I think for a bit.
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Re Volsung, his first form is indeed a hollogram. As far as Kartikeya goes, he can not chain Double Action infinitely, the most he can get is three consecutive turns. If I voted on Karti's duel form I would certainly allow him to triple act.
What do you propose with Volsung? You can ban form 2, but that seems unfair seeing as, to me at least, it's his most legal by quite a ways (not a hollogram, not fused with Hatred). You can ban Double Action, but that makes no sense; if he couldn't chain it, he'd be better? (a la Kartikeya) If we do rank Volsung I will vote on him as makes him most legal to me... which is to say he beats everyone once he gets a turn more or less. That's Bluelike. I don't want to rank Bluelikes. Compensating for their Bluelikeness through arbitrary nerfs will necessarily create annoyingly large interp splits, which obviously, I don't like (though you don't seem to mind).
Regarding Ice Queen Avril, I think Fei/Id is good enough precedent for ranking multiple "personalities" that exhibit different physical features, and again, I emphasise that the consequences for NOT ranking two Avrils are much more unpleasant. (As Dhyer noted, it is a completely legitimate split between Light and Godlike and numerous people will hold each view.) Though yeah, you don't seem to mind this, so <_<. I just don't see how somebody puttering around in, say, Middle or Heavy, who is either auto-winning or auto-losing their matches to most people, is good for the DL at all.
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Yeah NEB conviced me on Avril. I'll throw in a vote for IQA.
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WA5:
1. Yes
2. Yeah, it kept missing the mark but not so much cause it was a bad idea but cause there were better (and more interesting) ideas, which isn't the game's fault.
3. Rank the PCs, the Sentinels, and Nightburn. I do not support IQA, and Volsung can go die for the usual Bluelike reasons. I think people are overemphasizing the impact IQA is actually going to have on Avril honestly *shrugs*
P4:
1. No.
2. Abstain
3. Rather not assess P4 knowing almost nothing about it.
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I think people are overemphasizing the impact IQA is actually going to have on Avril honestly *shrugs*
Um, there are a significant number of people who intend to vote on boss Avril if we rank one Avril. And a significant number who intend to vote on the PC.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know where that is headed! I don't see how this is "overemphasising" the impact of the situation at all.
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Yeah NEB conviced me on Avril. I'll throw in a vote for IQA.
Ditto. That, and I have to admit that what little resistance I did have to the idea mostly stems from having two people ranked with the same art/name being aesthetically unpalatable. And me being anal isn't really a good enough reason to object to a rank.
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In fairness, Fei/Id was an RPGP thing and not us. The only other case where that came up was with the giant eye, and that had some unpleasant spoiler/art problems.
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I believe Crazed Eye had far fewer people who consider it a legal form for its corresponding PC, and even if it didn't the interpsplit would be far smaller. (Mid Heavy vs. Heavy/Godlike or so?)
I agree with you about Fei/Id being the RPGP, but I don't think it's been a bad situation that we've regretted in any sense (compare various RPGP ideas which haven't worked in the DL from Nall/Ruby to General Leo). It's not so much about a precedent, it's about the fact that we have a parallel situation already, and it really hasn't caused any problems. My main reason for strongly supporting the dual Avril rank is I feel it's by far the least of the evils, and drawing a comparison to Fei/Id (which has been inoffensive) reinforces this.
Basically, it's a Fei/Id situation vs. a Lezard situation. Unless you enjoy trainwrecks, it seems an easy enough choice to me.
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I don't particularly mind the split here, Id is a solid rank and also not a spoiler. The Crazed Eye is a large one, otherwise I think we would've ranked it. My only real concern at this point is how many Godlike bosses we're ranking, and WA games usually cheat in that regard and throw a lot of plot bosses at you like this. That's still.. four Godlike bosses? Hope the game doesn't tank.
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Mm, I'll be pushing for just 3 myself, but two more will likely get votes in that direction. I see your concern, but we've taken similar risks with other games (Grandia 3 and Shadow Hearts 3 come to mind as games in similar situations). WA5 has the advantage that none of the Godlikes are scary good - Persephone is decent but it's a long way from her to Xorn or Lady.
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My only real concern at this point is how many Godlike bosses we're ranking, and WA games usually cheat in that regard and throw a lot of plot bosses at you like this. That's still.. four Godlike bosses?
And this is exactly the reason I want to see WA5 ranked at all. Even Volsung.
Godlike is fun when the season isn't being dominated by a single dueller. More interesting bosses can only help this.
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Wild ARMs 5
Played until Dean lost the shovel
Yes
Rank Black Fenrir Dean and Rebecca. Abstain on other PCs. No to the Bluelikes
Persona 4
Yes
Yes
Obviously rank everyone
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I'd personally throw in 4 of the WA 5 bosses into Godlike myself, but even so, they really are notably less powerful than SH 3 bosses (if only thanks to Lady) and G3 bosses, and neither of those two are big drawers.
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WA5
Yes
Yes
Rank all PCs, but death to Avril, we don't need more boring lights, Ice Queen is a far better idea. And rank the bosses, but exclude Vulsung for obvious reasons.
P4
Yes
Yes
Rank all PCs, minus Soji.
Against the Dragon Quest nerd and New World Fool 1. For the true killer, the disco eye, and the gas stand part timer.
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...half the PCs are boring lights, Niu. Avril probably has as much a claim to a Mountain Medium as Dean and Rebecca have a claim to... anything.
EDIT: Which is to say, please convince me of Dean and Rebecca getting Mediums.
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WA5
Played: Yes, to completion
Rank: No, and I shall stand on this sinking ship until the end.
The PCs are all a spastic curve that I'm not sure anyone agrees on based on either near-miss assignment arguments, or are skillsetless characters more boring than Fire Emblem because their actual abilities have a lower percentage chance of kicking in. Oh boy, more bland PC lights.
The Bosses, utterly retarded Bluelike aside, are basically the same flavor of mediocre to decent durability, an elemental strength and weakness, and Slightly varying stupid high damage you're supposed to use one of the game's many tactical moves to not get one-shot by. Oh boy, more generic pure damage H/G border bosses.
The game just does not translate well to DL format, in my opinion, the PCs especially. IQA is a terrible rank, but I support it to prevent later Avril votesplit, if the game does get ranked. The DL thrives on discussion, on differing interpretation, but this kind of falls apart when it reaches opposite ends of the spectrum- when one person's basis for a character winning puts them in Low Heavy and another person's argument against put the character in High Light, there's little basis for discussion.
In conclusion, WA5 can suck a lemon.
P4
Played: Yes, to completion
Rank:Yes
Rank all PCs with final personae, including Souji. Rank Hippie Guy and the two finals, and frue final.
They're all interesting, with a broad spread of ranks. Souji's stat topic is mostly done anyway, so the research issue is moot, and an amazing versatile PC Mid-high godlike is a cool rank. The bosses are fine, and all have neat tricks and strategies. Frue final is obscure but not that obscure, and I feel that most people who missed it would hear about it, load up their save near the end, and go see it out of curiosity.
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WA5
Yes
Yes - *jumps off sinking ship*. Considering that we never attempt to cut already existing boring Lights, they should all get in. Besides, we miss out on CHUCK hype if we don't rank this, which may be more important than P4~
Rank PCs, Sentinels, Nightburn (aka Hank Scorpio), IQA. Abstain on Volsung.
P4
Yes
Yes
All PCs, abstain on bosses.
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Wild ARMs 5
Yep.
Sure, why not? PCs, Sentinels, Nightburn. Don't like 'em but I can't see any real reason to keep them out. No to Volsung, I'll leave IQA to be quibbled over within Avril's ranking.
Persona 4
Nope.
Apathy, pass.
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WA5
Played: Yes, to completion
Rank: No, and I shall stand on this sinking ship until the end.
The PCs are all a spastic curve that I'm not sure anyone agrees on based on either near-miss assignment arguments, or are skillsetless characters more boring than Fire Emblem because their actual abilities have a lower percentage chance of kicking in. Oh boy, more bland PC lights.
The Bosses, utterly retarded Bluelike aside, are basically the same flavor of mediocre to decent durability, an elemental strength and weakness, and Slightly varying stupid high damage you're supposed to use one of the game's many tactical moves to not get one-shot by. Oh boy, more generic pure damage H/G border bosses.
The game just does not translate well to DL format, in my opinion, the PCs especially. IQA is a terrible rank, but I support it to prevent later Avril votesplit, if the game does get ranked. The DL thrives on discussion, on differing interpretation, but this kind of falls apart when it reaches opposite ends of the spectrum- when one person's basis for a character winning puts them in Low Heavy and another person's argument against put the character in High Light, there's little basis for discussion.
Spastic curve? I think that the majority of people tend to agree on Mediums for at least 4 of the PCs (The 3 that start with Mediums and Rebecca), and if the last two get anything, tends to be the Mountain Medium (Which gives some light regen, some minor anti-physical stuff, shitty Protect that is arguably status immunity...and that's about it. Not a medium that gives a big change). While the mediumless PCs aren't interesting, they are at least non-horrid Lights, which at least means that they won't be getting into slapfights with Nara (Always plus for me).
Elemental strength/weakness stuff on the bosses is a good thing! Elemental weaknesses could always use more DL representation. In also say that the notable variations in the uber moves along with the charge times tend to create some interesting differences (Certainly Persephone's ITD smash with a charge time isn't too common a DL strategy, Fereydoon has the ID and lesser ITD for tearing up tanky PCs, Elvis has the deadlier limit style, and Karti has the worst!).
Avril's split isn't Low Heavy-Light, since massive speed+4D Pocket alone ensures High Heavy (And that's before the solid durability and the 2HKO Wind damage.
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Spastic curve? I think that the majority of people tend to agree on Mediums for at least 4 of the PCs (The 3 that start with Mediums and Rebecca), and if the last two get anything, tends to be the Mountain Medium (Which gives some light regen, some minor anti-physical stuff, shitty Protect that is arguably status immunity...and that's about it. Not a medium that gives a big change). While the mediumless PCs aren't interesting, they are at least non-horrid Lights, which at least means that they won't be getting into slapfights with Nara (Always plus for me).
Elemental strength/weakness stuff on the bosses is a good thing! Elemental weaknesses could always use more DL representation. In also say that the notable variations in the uber moves along with the charge times tend to create some interesting differences (Certainly Persephone's ITD smash with a charge time isn't too common a DL strategy, Fereydoon has the ID and lesser ITD for tearing up tanky PCs, Elvis has the deadlier limit style, and Karti has the worst!).
Avril's split isn't Low Heavy-Light, since massive speed+4D Pocket alone ensures High Heavy (And that's before the solid durability and the 2HKO Wind damage.
I don't pretend to know what the majority takes as the curve, so I can't really argue with that. It just seemed like, even in the ranking topic, there was a great deal of disagreement over medium assignment, appropriateness, and the use of blank mediums.
I guess because the actual damage spread doesn't seem that big, and they all have the strategy of "10: Use super move, 20: goto 10", having an elemental property doesn't seem to be enough to differentiate them to me.
And Heavy-low ligth was just and example. H/G borderline-Light is even worse, in terms of my point about votesplit character.
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Basically anyone who gave a ranking in that topic went with Carol/Chuck/Greg having their Mediums. Very few people noted that they noted anything otherwise, besides some questionableness for Greg's. There was discussion of blank Mediums, but very few people seemed to really adopt the view.
Persephone limit has over triple the starting damage that Elvis's has, so there's definetely a notable split damage wise. The bosses aren't greatly different, but the differences in limit do stand out (And in Proving Grounds at least, Elvis and Kartikeya both did get leverage out of their other moves, or sometimes were hurt because their magic was blocked). There are definetely some very differences in practice.
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Yeah, agreed with Dhyer. The bosses vary in notable ways and are certainly interesting. The method of execution of the super moves alone is interesting (can't use them if the person is getting a turn in the next half-round!). They're more interesting than lots of bosses we already have ranked.
Nightburn is less interesting (outside his elemental resists/weaknesses and his gravity option, so even he's not that bad) but he's plot relevant, and is Hank Scorpio.
Greg/Carol/Chuck are all reasonably interesting due to the mediums, and I believe they're all generally agreed to have them (Greg has raised some questions but ultimately I think most do allow him his). The other three PCs have some issues (no common interp to see them with mediums, but some will find ways) but that's no reason to block the game as a whole.
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Changing my Souji vote to a yes. He's beaten by a large enough percentage of Godlike (More than I expected, go imperfect status blocking) that I'm at least somewhat comfortable with ranking him.
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Ditto. though I'm 95% sure I see less of Godlike by far losing to him than super does, he's still beatable. So whatever, PC Annoyingly High Godlike.
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P4:
Yes
Yes
PCs that are not Souji. Bosses can be ranked 1-2 sessions later after the game's old and the issue can't be considered that much of a spoiler. Hell fucking fuck no to Souji.
WA5:
Yes
As much as I despise the thought of doing so, there's no reason not to, so yes.
PCs, Sentinels, Hank Scorpio--err, I mean Nightburn. abstain on IQA; while it could be a Fei/Id thing, it strikes me more as a P4-style Shadow. Another giant Fuck No to Volsung.
...hm.
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Just thought I'd mention that I edited in a 'Yes' for Souji. Lack of status coverage sells it, and a few Godlikes probably win anyways.
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Changed my vote to no for P4 bosses.
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And... I'm also gonna edit in yes to P4 DW1 Hero. Won't be hurt if he fails to get in, but I think he definitely merits getting in, and he's nowhere near as bad as the Katolike P4 bosses.
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P4 & WA5
1. No, haven't played it.
2. Yes, rank it.
3. Rank PCs, don't rank most bosses. In P4's case that means "forever and not at a later period." For WA5... eh, sure, rank IQA to prevent horrible votesplit issues. Abstain on Souji.
P4 bosses are horrific spoilers. The WA5 bosses sound afflicted by the "horrible in-game, awesome in the DL" rule which is a strike against, and W5's meh reception and playership mean that marginal ranks are less interesting.
Re the Souji hype: There was a topic on the Demifiend, I know, but was there ever a topic for Souji vs. Godlike? I don't recall one... also, looking at the stat topic, it seems that Hassou Tobi respect is variable, since the variety of damage averages have it everywhere from being merely 1.2x PCHPish damage to being horrific 2x PCHP overkill. And despite costing life, it should probably be factored into the averages somewhat since it's actually a worthwhile slugfesting move.
Against Souji, I'd like to point out that a lot of possible victories against him come down to deciding if a particular boss's attacks count as non-elemental or not, due to Souji's ability to spoil absolutely any element including physical. The others come down to deciding just how good Hassou Tobi is and if it can OHKO a boss before it statuses. Meh to that. Also, just looking at other top PC godlikes... Citan and Orlandu get owned by nulling physicals. Ryu3 probably gets killed by Hassou Tobi or statused? Yuna's evade might save her vs. HT, but apparently Souji still has 60% ID, so call that one a coinflip (and Yuna, frankly, is Bluelike - get a turn and win and all). Plus, if denied her optional Aeons, Souji probably beats the Aeon Parade anyway with fullhealing and nulling their elements.
Sure, tanky bosses with a reliable status win (Ghaleon? Piastol?), as can tanky bosses with either non-elemental overkill or overkill in any element they'd like (Lady, Zophar if FS is non-elemental rather than Dark), but that seems like it. Souji munches on Fou-Lu, Xorn, Empyrea... will abstain, since a lot seems to depend on just how good HT is for overkilling bosses before they can status him, but curious to see other's thoughts about his beatableness.
Edit: See Dhyerwolf about Piastol, guess the question mark was warranted. Silver is both Holy and Dark, basically, so a Persona that nulls both of 'em clearly nails Eternum.
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Wild Arms V
1. Yes
2. Yes
Who to rank: The PCs, the Sentinels, Nightburn, Ice Queen Avril, and Volsung.
Persona 4
1. No
2. Yes
3. Abstain
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Sure, tanky bosses with a reliable status win (Ghaleon? Piastol?), as can tanky bosses with either non-elemental overkill or overkill in any element they'd like (Lady, Zophar if FS is non-elemental rather than Dark), but that seems like it. Souji munches on Fou-Lu, Xorn, Empyrea... will abstain, since a lot seems to depend on just how good HT is for overkilling bosses before they can status him, but curious to see other's thoughts about his beatableness.
Piastol only wins if you either consider Silver to be neither Holy or Dark or consider Blue to be part Water and not all Wind. Otherwise she can't even damage him thanks to Helel getting Wind/Holy/Dark.
Status feels like a theoretical flaw with Souji. They have to live to their turn, and Souji is fast with Hassan Tobi. Throw in Auto-Matarukaja and that's a lot of damage to survive. Yes, there are Godlikes that can do this, and they may even be able to apply the right status and then have the damage types after that to kill him. But...it's probably not that many on the whole.
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Wild Arms V
1. Yes
2. Yes
Who to rank: The PCs, the Sentinels, Nightburn, Ice Queen Avril. Abstain Volsung.
Persona 4
1. No
2. Yes
3. Abstain
Minor tweak.
Sums it up for me. On Volsung, it's been a while since I played, from what I've read alot of people sort of force crit's for relevant characters according to their probablities of occurring, like someone who has a 33% chance of critting will crit on every third turn they take. Since WA5 basically hands you every enemies skillset and the probability of it occuring per turn in game, it might be a good idea to figure his average chance per turn over the entire skillset and force his double much in the same way as crits and statuses and whatnot. I'm decently certain that it's low enough that he wouldn't be doubling more then 1 out of 5 turns that way. I wouldn't mind popping the game back in and figuring the mathy stuff out if this sounds like a decent idea when I get home tommorrow evening, I should have a save right before him.
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Most bosses have algorithms like that, and most people don't force them to said algorithms. It's not fair to make only WA5 bosses do this while letting other people who have AI algorithms go free just because you can't see them in-game.
Also, there's a big difference between "this move does X effect Y% of the time" and "boss uses X move Y% of the time".
For the record, I believe it's 3/8 chance on turn 3/7/11... and 1/8 chance on turn 4/8/12...,
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Yeah, kinda a rando though on my part. I feel kinda stupid for trying to compare chance on hit percentages to chance to use a move now that I think about it. Kinda just randomly trying to come up with ideas to fairly nerf that form since people don't seem to like the other two that much. I guess I'll just abstain on him then since I don't have a diverse enough library to know how many godlikes kill him before his third turn.
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Wild Arms V
1. No.
2. Yes. PCs, the Sentinels, Nightburn, Ice Queen Avril. No to everything else.
Persona 4
1. No
2. Yes. PCs minus Souji, 8-bit Hero. No to everything else.
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WA5
1. Partially
2. Abstain. I don't have a good reason to not want it in aside from really disliking the game. But I can't bring myself to support ranking it either.
Persona 4
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Rank PCs...including Souji. Rank 8-Bit Hero. Rank the killer.
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Wild Arms 5:
No.
Yes.
Abstain on specifics. *Yawn.* Whatever, it's a pretty harmless game unless I missed something.
Persona 4:
No.
Yes.
Yes to all PCs. Abstain on Souji-I have...no real idea how I feel about a Persona main, they feel like trainwreck potential and from a game that's, well, less popular than say FFX(Or even Lunar:EB, as of right now, although I suspect that will change with time). I don't really have an objection per se or anything, just dunno. Maybe if I'd played the game I'd have some more firm idea.
No to bosses. C'mon guys, we didn't rank Kato because the game had barely been out any time. Have some patience. :(
Edit: Yes to Souji. Talked myself into the idea thinking about it a while.
Edit: No to Rise. I really should not have to say this, but.
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Sage: The one boss I've nommed isn't a Kato boss, he's more a... Goldfish Poop Gang with a somewhat tough fight. It's hard to take him seriously, though.
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That form is questionable on who/what it is. Definitely passing on that.
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Spoilers typed below, some taken from the discussion topic. I really can't discuss some stuff here without spoilers, so...be warned.
As for the 4 (5) big bosses getting support (or no support):
1) Mitsuo Kubo (Shadow Mitsuo, 8-bit Hero, whatever): So...really don't think we'd be ranking him - just the shadow form. They really aren't the same person (not that I'll object too much, but...). Mitsuo denies the shadow, much like the other characters do, causing the shadow form to be born. It's separate from him, similar to the other shadow forms (different voice), especially due to the fact that Mitsuo doesn't accept it (still denies it), unlike the other characters, so, plot-wise, it is still separate from him. Now, if you just want to rank the Shadow Form, that's a different story, just noting that the Shadow Form...isn't the person, for whatever that's worth.
2) Taro Namatame (Kunino-Sagiri): I think I explained this a while ago somewhere to someone. From what I remember reading on interpretations, the plot in him is as follows. Kunino-Sagiri is the Goddess of the Fog (Ameno being the God). Taro was given the power of persona and the ability to enter the TV from Izanami. For the battle, it is him - while he doesn't fight like Adachi does, it is him (voice, attitude, he's drained after the battle, hence why he's put in the hospital afterwards). He merges with his Shadow (i.e., as the game plot puts it, his persona) to become Hippie Jesus (i.e., the peaceful saviour). He's fully in control of it, and as the game states, those given the power can mold it however they want to achieve what they believe is the true answer.
3) Tohru Adachi (The Killer): Really doesn't need much explanation. Only issue here is the spoilerness (which, due to the deal made about it...makes it a bigger spoiler than it would have been :/). Do note that he states he is entirely in control of his actions, though, which matters when we get to...
4) Ameno-Sagiri (Big Fucking Eye): A being Izanami created secondary to Adachi's motivations (she was watching to see how a few random people with power would use it - since Adachi was first to enter the town and make use of it, she put him at the forefront of everything, giving form to Ameno-Sagiri to create the world Adachi was aiming for). Once Adachi is beaten, Ameno-Sagiri recognizes this - others with similar power are trying to change the original paradigm, and so he tests whether the new aims of the party can overcome him (i.e., those of the original "creator", as it were). Of all the bosses (excluding Mitsuo), Ameno is the most Necron-like (not that he really is, but most like), and has the shortest exposition (and requires some digging and thought), so probably the least important to rank, to me, on a plot aspect.
5) Izanami (The Goddess): See a lot of the above. She comes out near the end, but is technically the 4th character you meet in the game (Soji - Nanako - Ryotaro - Izanami in Drag). If you talk to people often, you get this from her as the Gas Station Attendant, and she's alluded to many times (and, if you look closely at the Fog Battle at the start of the game, you can make out the Gas Station Attendant Outline - she actually reminds me of Beatrice a lot). She is the orchestrator of the game, though is a little obscure, but honestly, I think everyone fights her, and knows about her existence. Definitely support ranking her - she's arguably the least spoileriffic of all the above, so would be fine to rank now.
Just wanted to put those notes out there. Considering changing my ranking thoughts, but will wait a bit.
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Wild ARMs 5
1. Played.
2. Rank.
3. PCs, all bosses (including IQA) except! No Volsung.
Persona 4
1. Played.
2. Rank.
3. PCs except! No Souji. Yes all bosses (like the spoilery ones have support) except! no hippies.
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P4
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. PC cast, yes to Souji. No on the bosses right now, let's see how it does with PCs first.
WA5
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. PC Cast, bosses
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Wild ARMs 5
1.No
2.Abstain
Persona 4
1.Yes
2.Yes
3.PC cast including Souji, wait on the bosses.
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Wild ARMs 5
Played: No
Ranks: Abstain on everyone except Volsung and IQA, no to both of them.
Persona 4
Played: Yes
Rank: The killer, and all PCs including Souji. Abstain on mitsuo, ameno-sagiri, and izanami. No to kunino-sagiri.
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WA5
1. Have you played this game? - Tes
2. Rank it? - Sure. Rank the PCs, IQA and the Sentinels. Abstain on Nightburn and Volsung.
3. Why or why not?
I always felt Nightburn in the grand scheme of things wasn't that memorable *shrugs*. As for Volsung...on one hand, he basically rides Bluelike using a gimmick that will likely never happen in game. He's not the first type of "get turn, you lose" duellist we have (although this is pretty literal), so I don't see it as big of an offense to rank him. THAT BEING SAID, I can clearly understand why ranking him is such a bad idea. So yeah, abstain.
P4
1. Have you played this game? - Yes
2. Rank it? - Sure. Rank the PCs sans Souji for now. No to Souji. No to bosses
3. Why or why not?
Bosses (aside from spoilerness), I am generally not impressed with for being memorable. One boss that doesn't count as the frue ending and then the frue ending boss being pretty out there and easily missable. Guess it doesn't help that P3 bosses (even the ranked STREGA) also failed to inspire me, so it sets a precedent for me. As for Souji, he's more rankable than Minato but interp headache that I rather not deal with.
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He's not the first type of "get turn, you lose" duellist we have (although this is pretty literal), so I don't see it as big of an offense to rank him. THAT BEING SAID, I can clearly understand why ranking him is such a bad idea. So yeah, abstain.
Unlike the other duellists of this sort, Volsung actually has durability and status immunity. VERY hard to stop him from getting a turn.
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Hence why I said ranking him is a bad idea >_>
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Abstain on WA5 due to lack of playing/caring about the game.
For P4, no to Souji, yes to other PCs, no to bosses.
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Wild ARMs 5
1. Yes.
2. Abstain. Entire cast can burn in hell.
Persona 4
1.Yes.
2.Yes.
3.PC cast not including Rise, Rat bastard 8-Bit Hero, Killer.
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Rank everything.
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This closes when the update fires (27ish hours). So get your votes/edits/comments in now!
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Persona 4: 38-0 100%
Souji: 22-11 66%
8Bit: 11-22 33%
Hippie: 7-26 21%
Killer: 10-23 30%
Eye: 7-24 23%
Final: 6-25 19%
WA5: 28-1 97%
Avril: 25-2 93%
Ice Queen Avril: 18-5 78%
Bosses: 23-1 96%
Nightburn: 22-1 96%
Volsung: 5-21 24%
All those ranked at 66% or above are now ranked. We welcome Wild ARMS 5 and Persona 4 to the DL. Thanks to everyone who took the time to vote and argue, the next round will be up shortly.