The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: superaielman on June 26, 2009, 05:04:27 AM
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Well, this is it. Time to rank the DL's newest entrants Light, Middle, Heavy, or Godlike. See previous topics for details; ask any questions if needed.
Feel free to assign DNR (Do Not Rank) if you don't think someone should be ranked from a particular game.
Voting closes on Thursday, February 26, at the same time that the DL itself does (9:00 Pacific).
Ranking values:
Godlike = 5.0
Low Godlike = 4.75
Heavy/Godlike = 4.5
High Heavy = 4.25
Heavy = 4.0
Middle/Heavy (or Low Heavy) = 3.75
High Middle = 3.5
Middle = 3.25
Light/Middle (or Low Middle) = 3.0
High Light = 2.75
Light = 2.5
Low Light = 2.0
Puny/Light = 1.5
Puny = 1.0
Persona 4
Chie Satonaka
Kanji Tatsumi
Naoto Shirogane
Souji Seta
Teddie
Yosuke Hanamura
Yukiko Amagi
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur
Carol Anderson
Chuck Preston
Dean Stark
Elvis
Fereydoon
Greg Russelberg
Ice Queen Avril
Kartikeya
Nightburn Acklund
Persephone
Rebecca Streisand
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka- Heavy. Damage, evasion, speed. She can be walled but it's not easy, the asskicking she gave proving grounds so far proves what division she belongs in.
Kanji Tatsumi- Low Heavy. Uber durability and good damage, but he's slow and doesn't like evasion.
Naoto Shirogane- Low Heavy. Evasive, quick ID whore. It works.
Souji Seta- Godlike. He can be beaten (See Souji vs the world), but it isn't easy. All that flexability boils down to him kicking your ass with a lot of nasty physical damage and tanking with Enduring Soul.
Teddie- Middle. Weak to thunder, slow, not durable. Good healing/buff package but...
Yosuke Hanamura- Heavy. Red Mage+5. He covers his bases well and does speed/damage well enough to deserve this.
Yukiko Amagi- High Middle. Ice weakness and bad physical durability. Evasion should help some.
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka: Heavy. Evade hype I guess. With PC God's Hand that is pretty nice.
Kanji Tatsumi: Low Heavy. The damage is pretty nuts when he can get it off. Taking his own HP sucks, but eh.
Naoto Shirogane: Low Heavy. ID whoring.
Souji Seta: 5.0 Godlike. It's fucking Souji.
Teddie: Middle. Thunder weakness blows.
Yosuke Hanamura: Low Heavy. He is all-around good but he lacks that definitive punch.
Yukiko Amagi: High Middle. She's good, but ice weakness and isn't too hot to physicals. On the other hand, tons of healing, evade, Endure, 2HKO magic. On the OTHER hand. It's fire.
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur: Light. WA5 PC.
Carol Anderson: Middle. Parasitic healing that doesn't COMPLETELY suck tends to get you out of light.
Chuck Preston: Light. WA5 PC
Dean Stark: Light. WA5 PC
Rebecca Streissand: Light. WA5 PC ;_;
Elvis: Low Godlike. He's unique, which is good.
Fereydoon: Godlike.
Greg Russelberg: Light. Whatever to his supposed damage edge.
Ice Queen Avril: Godlike.. 4D pocket off that speed.
Kartikeya: Godlike. He isn't a GREAT godlike.
Nightburn Acklund: High Middle. Seems a pretty typical middle boss.
Persephone: Godlike. BAM.
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Chie Satonaka - 4.1 Heavy. Brutal buffing game. The Hong Kong Monty Python routine off Miori Shirt shenanigans kicks a lot of asses. Loathes the truly evasive and physical walls, but tends to do ugly things to other people.
Kanji Tatsumi - 3.8 Heavy. Rather overrank him a little if I am. Feels very borderlinish, since his vulnerability to status and healers he can't OHKO is rather glaring, but the durability game is just nutsy, especially with P4 equips to back it up. Strong damage doesn't hurt either, and he can do some elemental spoiling.
Naoto Shirogane - 4.0 Heavy. Went to the Wugui school of spoiling. Preys on the evadable and ID-vulnerable, and the elemental spoiling in addition to that is very good. Failing hilariously against SH3 Lights is odd, though.
Souji Seta - 5.0 Godlike. He's actually more of a 5.4-5, but hey. Amazing Cecilia-type who spoils and slugfests in equally brutal manners. Specific status gets him, but still very impressive.
Teddie - 3.6 Middle. Healing+solid damage+buffs and P4 equips go a long way! Just... the base durability is terrible and the lightning weakness is something else. Those two paired up keep him out of Heavy rather definitely.
Yosuke Hanamura - 3.9 Heavy. Actually rather straightforward, but perfectly solid. Offense is decent, first turn speed ranges from solid to great, he can hit both defenses and he also has the awesome of P4 equips to back him up. Sukukaja can be pretty useful, to the point of making his shoddy healing not completely obsolete. Add some spoiling to the package and you have someone who may not do much in Heavy, but most certainly deserves the division.
Yukiko Amagi - 3.6 Middle. Better spoiling than Teddie, worse buffs, and is hurt by the fact she can't 2HKO. Ice weakness also sucks, but she has the two best DL resistances as far as I know, and she can stall solidly as well.
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Ranked according to what my perception of the 'most common interp'. In parentheses, I'll add my own thoughts.
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur - EDIT: LIGHT. Hilarious with practically no skills! I think there's like a 10% chance of her unique ability kicking in? (I give Avril the Mountain Medium cause I like handing out Mediums and there's that scene where it's handed to her and all, probably lets her get High Light!)
Carol Anderson - Middle. I agree with the assessment that her Medium will push her to this division. She's the most interesting of the PCs. (Since there's no debate on which Medium she gets, my views are the same!)
Chuck Preston - Light. Just... no damage and hardly any skills. At least he gets a Medium. (Same)
Dean Stark - Light. Not Puny due to Shovel Dean hype! (Middle with the Sea Medium or Sky Medium. High Light with the Mountain Medium. He has a decent claim for all three. I hand him the Sea Medium because Rebecca's the better mage early on when the two of them receive the Mediums, so she gets Sky. Yay.)
Elvis - Low Godlike. Fun stuff.
Fereydoon - Normal Godlike. Typical for a WA boss, I suppose. I wonder how he'll do in practice.
Greg Russelberg - High Light. Sword Medium hype! (Same)
Ice Queen Avril - Godlike. Double the Avril is never a bad thing!
Kartikeya - Low Godlike. But-but double-turning!
Nightburn Acklund - Middle. Not that great, but memorable enough to have fun in Middle.
Persephone - Godlike. Yay! More High Godlikes!
Rebecca Streisand - Puny. She's got nothing going for her by most people's views. (She gets the Sky Medium to me, since she's the better mage when Dean and she first receive these Mediums in the plot! Might bump her to Low Middle!)
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka- 4. Convincingly Heavy. Auto-Sukukaja is awesome for the evasion and the accuracy.
Kanji Tatsumi- 3.85. A bit borderline, but the 1.8 PC durability and the 90%ish turn 1 damage is solid overall.
Naoto Shirogane- 3.85. ID with a few evasion shenanigans.
Souji Seta- 5
Teddie- 3.55. Painful weakness
Yosuke Hanamura- 3.75. Not as convinced here. Good speed, but it falls towards average, 2HKOing for 3 turns off two damage types is nice....Just doesn't have the strong cohesion the higher ranks do to me.
Yukiko Amagi- 3.55. No Auto-Taru armor, but Auto-Suku is good too, and Ice completely doesn't deserve it's placement as a "Big 3" element.
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur- 2.8. Well, Blocker is probably ass, so averagish+5% Regen
Carol Anderson- 3.35.
Chuck Preston- 3.2. Think the limit effect is enough for low Middle
Dean Stark- 2.75. Averagish
Elvis- 4.6. PG last time showed he could play here. He's too strong and fast for the elemental weaknesses to really be exploited in Heavy.
Fereydoon- 4.8
Greg Russelberg- 3.3. Not getting the Medium stat boosts hurts his damage, but still a solid 2HKO with passable free damage to try and heal lock.
Ice Queen Avril- 4.8. Not the best in slugfests, but still solid+PC murdering
Kartikeya- 4.5. Slightly sub Elvis via my experience in Proving Grounds. Godlike that tend to hit Elvis' weakness tend to be able to outslug Karti anyways.
Nightburn Acklund- Abstain (Not a DNR, just an abstain on giving him a number ranking)
Persephone- 5
Rebecca Streisand- 2.85. Averagish with anti healing on maybe turn 5.
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka- Heavy
Kanji Tatsumi- Low Heavy
Naoto Shirogane- Low Heavy
Souji Seta- High Godlike
Teddie- Middle
Yosuke Hanamura- Heavy
Yukiko Amagi- Middle
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur- Puny
Carol Anderson- Light... nah, Puny
Chuck Preston- Light
Dean Stark- Light
Elvis- Heavy/Godlike
Fereydoon- Low Godlike
Greg Russelberg- Light
Ice Queen Avril- Godlike
Kartikeya- Low Godlike
Nightburn Acklund- Middle
Persephone- High Godlike
Rebecca Streisand- Puny
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Avril Vent Fleur - Puny. Hilarious with practically no skills! I think there's like a 10% chance of her unique ability kicking in? (I give Avril the Mountain Medium cause I like handing out Mediums and there's that scene where it's handed to her and all, probably lets her get High Light!)
Chuck Preston - Light. Just... no damage and hardly any skills. At least he gets a Medium. (Same)
Dean Stark - Light. Not Puny due to Shovel Dean hype! (Middle with the Sea Medium or Sky Medium. High Light with the Mountain Medium. He has a decent claim for all three. I hand him the Sea Medium because Rebecca's the better mage early on when the two of them receive the Mediums, so she gets Sky. Yay.)
The main difference between Dean and Avril is a 22% damage difference...in Avril's favor (Okay, Dean has 2% more speed and 2.5% more HP)! They are very similar, and yet Avril is Puny with a Medium when Dean is High Light with that same Medium?
Chuck has a very notable skill in his unique Damage Up as HP decreases skill, since that's fairly potent (Think it slightly better than doubles his damage at 1 HP? And WA 5 damage curve=his starting damage isn't bad).
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Chie Satonaka - Middle/Heavy. Don't allow Miori Shirt, but she's got good speed for the non-Soujis and I -do- respect the Furinkazin's Enervation rate. Having Rune Dress to fall back on helps here, I guess?
Kanji Tatsumi - High Middle. Doesn't get his -taru, has little use for his auto-Endure. Went to the Katt school of magic, gets enough SP to use his spells but not enough Magic to make them damaging. This being said, durability. It is gooooood. Also pretty powerful.
Naoto Shirogane - Middle/Heavy. Nina2/ID spammer variant.
Souji Seta - Godlike.
Teddie - Middle. Lightning weakness, overall solid healer otherwise.
Yosuke Hanamura - Heavy. Pretty solid status, good damage, healing to fall back on against the really bad. Auto-Endure gives him one more shot of whatever, which is shiny.
Yukiko Amagi - High Middle. Ice being less common is nice. Otherwise is a Teddie variant, trading buffing for damage. Loves Auto-Endure, but if something was able to easily knock her down there it can do it again (same for Teddie) so it's not as nin nin as it seems.
I'm open to argument, but definitely not allowing the auto-'s kinda shifts some people down to me.
EDIT: All these are now uncertain, though the ladies aren't likely to move. Just checked, the auto-taru would be legal to me (non-rainy day), which... Teddie thinks it's funny, Souji kinda shrugs, Yosuke and Kanji are definitely happy. Need to rethink things due to this.
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Avril Vent Fleur - Puny. Hilarious with practically no skills! I think there's like a 10% chance of her unique ability kicking in? (I give Avril the Mountain Medium cause I like handing out Mediums and there's that scene where it's handed to her and all, probably lets her get High Light!)
Chuck Preston - Light. Just... no damage and hardly any skills. At least he gets a Medium. (Same)
Dean Stark - Light. Not Puny due to Shovel Dean hype! (Middle with the Sea Medium or Sky Medium. High Light with the Mountain Medium. He has a decent claim for all three. I hand him the Sea Medium because Rebecca's the better mage early on when the two of them receive the Mediums, so she gets Sky. Yay.)
The main difference between Dean and Avril is a 22% damage difference...in Avril's favor (Okay, Dean has 2% more speed and 2.5% more HP)! They are very similar, and yet Avril is Puny with a Medium when Dean is High Light with that same Medium?
You've misread. I think Avril is Puny with no Medium.
With the Mountain Medium, yeah, she'd be High Light, too.
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New way I have found to rank via numberical numbers! Yay to use and such! Idea Seta come from to utilize here.
Chie Satonaka - 3.98812 - Fast, damage, Power Charge while spamming Bufula is actually a decent strategy, as it heal-locks. Nulling ice is decent. Overall, good stat set-up, and the equip options are sexilicious.
Kanji Tatsumi - 3.666666666666 - Ok, not sure exactly where to put him. Tank! Damage is decent! Taru and Rakukaja! Equip options are also nice. Still...slow, no evasion fun, and lacks on a lot of the really cool options the rest of the cast gets. He really could go either way... so defaulting to a lower division.
Naoto Shirogane - 3.81335 - Kind of like Chie, except no damage! But loads of evasion, speed, and instant death. Frail, but...eh.
Souji Seta - 4.88301 - Options are fun. Can't touch the super power Godlikes, but is...probably the best PC Godlike ranked. Which is quite a feat.
Teddie - 3.44901134 - WORST IN THE CAST OMG! Wishes he could get the Auto-suku armour, but eh. Hates electric weakness, and his resistances aren't too amazing (but good overall). Frailish, but high enough damage, healing, support skills, works.
Yosuke Hanamura - 4.0091375 - He...just does everything really well. Even his healing has uses. Put him a little above Chie since his magic is better and less resisted.
Yukiko Amagi - 3.59122 - Teddie with better resistances and better durability overall. Granted, also has wallable damage, but...eh. What can you do?
Avril Vent Fleur - 2.45976 - Effectively average damage, but decent enough HP and DEF and RES, although she's a bit slow. Has...a few neat skills to use. Just...can't see her above Light, really.
Carol Anderson - 3.58773 - Drain! Speed! Durability isn't bad since the cast is so damn average. Decent enough.
Chuck Preston - 2.81239 - Well...I can see him in Middle, but...again, when unsure, go for the lower division. His damage boost is great, and he's overall above average in everything. Wishes he had a different Medium, but not bad.
Dean Stark - 1.633119 - To ensure Rebecca is better, I have to take Dean with Black Fenrir. Granted, this makes him infinitely cooler plotwise, and since that's more important, I think this works. Anyway...nothing really outstanding, so this fits here.
Elvis - 4.88888888 - The weaknesses suck, but, like all the Sentinels, I take them at the same level (since...you aren't forced to fight them in any specific order, and I fought Kartikeya first, Persephone last, etc.). He has pretty freakish durability and great damage.
Fereydoon - 4.921178 - Fast, instant death attached to the damage kills lots. Also has Protect for great defense, and his weaknesses are...good and rare.
Greg Russelberg - 3.54778 - Does not like the low MP, but the damage is...decent enough, although he really needs to move to a leypoint first. Speed is eh, but Auto-Guard helps him survive a bit better than normal, and he has decent enough HP. Just...probably wishes he had Hi-Blast instead of Hi-Crush? Also loses a few points for being unattractive.
Ice Queen Avril - DNR - Not comfortable with ranking her separately - after the fight, they merge, and while IQA has some personality come out for AVF, none of the power does. It's in Avril's mind, and...never again. While they were separate in the past, I'm inclined to believe it's battling a memory, and AVF is the frue Avril...just don't feel comfortable ranking them both.
Kartikeya - 4.944112 - Probably the best overall. Like Fereydoon, great weakness set, and he has the best durability of the group, and really strong damage overall. Good speed, and his Duel Form is...potentially useful with the instant death. Probably has the best options overall of the Sentinels.
Nightburn Acklund - 4.33444451 - Fast and durable, although the damage is lacking (even on a leypoint). Really common weakness. Still, boss durability and the like pushes him up.
Persephone - 4.91145 - Loses to bosses generally, and anyone with excellent water damage, but...her overkill is the best of the bunch, though she doesn't have status. Granted, Quicken has uses.
Rebecca Streisand - 2.912223 - Continuous Attack was more akin to 20-25% chance each attack. She also has speed, and while her durability could be better, she has excellent damage vs. Black Fenrir Dean. Still Light, probably, although points for cuteness.
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka- Heavy. Damage, evasion, speed. She can be walled but it's not easy, the asskicking she gave proving grounds so far proves what division she belongs in.
Kanji Tatsumi- Low Heavy. Uber durability and good damage, but he's slow and doesn't like evasion.
Naoto Shirogane- Low Heavy. Evasive, quick ID whore. It works.
Souji Seta- Godlike. He can be beaten (See Souji vs the world), but it isn't easy. All that flexability boils down to him kicking your ass with a lot of nasty physical damage and tanking with Enduring Soul.
Teddie- Middle. Weak to thunder, slow, not durable. Good healing/buff package but...
Yosuke Hanamura- Heavy. Red Mage+5. He covers his bases well and does speed/damage well enough to deserve this.
Yukiko Amagi- High Middle. Ice weakness and bad physical durability. Evasion should help some.
Wild Arms 5
Avril Vent Fleur: Light. WA5 PC.
Carol Anderson: Middle. Parasitic healing that doesn't COMPLETELY suck tends to get you out of light.
Chuck Preston: Light. WA5 PC
Dean Stark: Light. WA5 PC
Rebecca Streissand: Light. WA5 PC ;_;
Elvis: Low Godlike. He's unique, which is good.
Fereydoon: Godlike.
Greg Russelberg: Light. Whatever to his supposed damage edge.
Ice Queen Avril: Godlike.. 4D pocket off that speed.
Kartikeya: Godlike. He isn't a GREAT godlike.
Nightburn Acklund: High Middle. Seems a pretty typical middle boss.
Persephone: Godlike. BAM.
Stealing without edits from the ones I agree with most on the topics. I'm that busy/lazy.
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka: Heavy. Good evade, speed. Lack of healing may be a problem.
Kanji Tatsumi: High Middle. Worked like Shinjiro from P3 for me, good durability, great damage, but can never f'ing connect.
Naoto Shirogane: High Middle. Durabilty is crap, and sucks against bosses. ID spamming works, but her Mind Charge- Megi combo won't help against most of Heavy.
Souji Seta: Godlike. Cheap ultra-versatile bastard.
Teddie: High Middle. Healing and Ice could help him out here. Lightning weakness means he'll never get OUT of Middle, mind...
Yosuke Hanamura: Low Heavy. Good allround.
Yukiko Amagi: High Middle. "She's good, but ice weakness and isn't too hot to physicals. On the other hand, tons of healing, evade, Endure, 2HKO magic. On the OTHER hand. It's fire."
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur: Light. Will never get out of Light at that, which kinda makes that entire Ice Queen debate awhile back pointless. Heh.
Carol Anderson: Light. WA5 PC.
Chuck Preston: Puny.
Dean Stark: Light. WA5 PC.
Rebecca Streissand: Light.
Elvis: Low Godlike. ...Dammit! Completely forgot about Elvis when I mde that Burn in Hell comment.
Fereydoon: Godlike.
Greg Russelberg: Middle. Stealing Raquel's skillset, but not bein able to spam it at will like she can helps and hurts here.
Ice Queen Avril: Godlike.
Kartikeya: Godlike.
Nightburn: Middle.
Persephone: Godlike.
Mind you, I'd prefer to rank Romero from WA3 or those fraggin' doll twins from WA4 then most of WA5's cast.
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka - Heavy - Auto-Suku, smashy, nulls ice, it's been said.
Kanji Tatsumi - High Middle - The durability is nice, but probably just too slow and lacking in anything besides that and HP-sucking damage for Heavy.
Naoto Shirogane - Low Heavy - Accurate ID and having unresistable magic damage is a nice set up, especially with the speed and evasion. Durability makes it a little more borderline though.
Souji Seta - Godlike - Freaking insane, only loses to the best of the best and spoilers.
Teddie - Middle - Lightning is a crappy weakness, and frail on top of it. Healing and buffing is good though. Can heal after enduring.
Yosuke Hanamura - Low Heavy - Wishes his healing was a bit better, but basically good at everything aside from that.
Yukiko Amagi - High Middle - Ice is the least big of the three, and gets a lot from endure. Good damage, though she's pretty slow.
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur - High Light - Mountain Medium is nice, above average damage, and I think Blocker isn't too terrible. Reinforce might help get a Critical Heal? Still not a middle, especially with that speed.
Carol Anderson - Low Middle - Mountain Avril in the average makes her a bit frailer, but her game is pretty set in stone either way.
Chuck Preston - High Light - Damage up is good, and Moon gives him sort of noticeable evasion. Prism Staff - which he comes with - might help him get Intrude.
Dean Stark - Light - Taking non-Mediums against the non-Medium average... he's averageish damage, speed, and decent durability. Double Critical helps him against the likes of Mint and Raja.
Elvis - Low Godlike - The weaknesses kinda blow, and his damage is a bit weak early on. Fast, limit damage, and a rare magic type though.
Fereydoon - Godlike - Most durable Sentinel, and probably almost fast enough to even out to average with Laser Silhouette.
Greg Russelberg - Low Middle - HP and best damage. Not as slow as Avril!
Ice Queen Avril - Godlike - Fast and 4D Pocket. 2HKO damage, not frail, and Blocker might help.
Kartikeya - Low Godlike - Durability is good, and above average speed. Barely OHKOs though.
Nightburn Acklund - Hight Middle - A fast 3HKO with okay durability and gravity for variety. Weak to fire is not fun.
Persephone - Godlike - Least durable and slowest (aha) Sentinel, then she uses Gatling Gun and you explode.
Rebecca Streisand - Light - No Medium averages... still leave her below average damage, but somewhat fast, and continuous attack is actually pretty common.
Mind you, I'd prefer to rank Romero from WA3 or those fraggin' doll twins from WA4 then most of WA5's cast.
Username fixed for great something >_>
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka: Heavy.
Kanji Tatsumi: Low Heavy.
Naoto Shirogane: Low Heavy.
Souji Seta: Abstain. Not up to thinking about him right now.
Teddie: Middle.
Yosuke Hanamura: Middle/Heavy.
Yukiko Amagi: Middle.
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur: Light.
Carol Anderson: Middle.
Chuck Preston: Low Middle.
Dean Stark: Light.
Elvis: Godlike.
Fereydoon: Godlike.
Greg Russelberg: Middle.
Ice Queen Avril: Low Godlike.
Kartikeya: Low Godlike.
Nightburn Acklund: Middle.
Persephone: Godlike.
Rebecca Streisand: Light.
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka - Heavy.
Kanji Tatsumi - Low Heavy
Naoto Shirogane - Low Heavy
Souji Seta - Godlike
Teddie - Low Middle
Yosuke Hanamura - Heavy
Yukiko Amagi - Middle
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur - High Light (Even though I give her the Mountain Medium she's not getting higher)
Carol Anderson - Middle
Chuck Preston - Low Middle
Dean Stark - Light (No Medium. Not sure what people mean if they give him the Sea Medium though, since he'd be able to heal, play a limit game and build up to his ITD Force move, which would put him much, much higher and make him an interesting dueller).
Elvis - Godlike
Fereydoon - Godlike
Greg Russelberg - Low Middle
Ice Queen Avril - Godlike
Kartikeya - Godlike
Nightburn Acklund - High Middle
Persephone - Godlike
Rebecca Streisand - Light
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You've misread. I think Avril is Puny with no Medium.
With the Mountain Medium, yeah, she'd be High Light, too.
She's not even Puny without a medium. She has gamebest non-medium damage, and it's above average even with mediums factored in. That is not Puny, let alone considering other non-medium people as Light when they have worse damage (and let's face it other WA5 stat differences aren't much).
Dean Stark - Light. Not Puny due to Shovel Dean hype! (Middle with the Sea Medium or Sky Medium. High Light with the Mountain Medium. He has a decent claim for all three. I hand him the Sea Medium because Rebecca's the better mage early on when the two of them receive the Mediums, so she gets Sky. Yay.)
I like how Dean gets the better medium just because he sucks as being a mage...
Dean Stark - Light (No Medium. Not sure what people mean if they give him the Sea Medium though, since he'd be able to heal, play a limit game and build up to his ITD Force move, which would put him much, much higher and make him an interesting dueller).
What ITD Force move? If you mean Sonic Vision, it's not ITD, and it's not on the Sea medium anyway.
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Avril Vent Fleur - Puny. Hilarious with practically no skills! I think there's like a 10% chance of her unique ability kicking in? (I give Avril the Mountain Medium cause I like handing out Mediums and there's that scene where it's handed to her and all, probably lets her get High Light!)
Chuck Preston - Light. Just... no damage and hardly any skills. At least he gets a Medium. (Same)
Dean Stark - Light. Not Puny due to Shovel Dean hype! (Middle with the Sea Medium or Sky Medium. High Light with the Mountain Medium. He has a decent claim for all three. I hand him the Sea Medium because Rebecca's the better mage early on when the two of them receive the Mediums, so she gets Sky. Yay.)
The main difference between Dean and Avril is a 22% damage difference...in Avril's favor (Okay, Dean has 2% more speed and 2.5% more HP)! They are very similar, and yet Avril is Puny with a Medium when Dean is High Light with that same Medium?
You've misread. I think Avril is Puny with no Medium.
With the Mountain Medium, yeah, she'd be High Light, too.
I did misinterpret this, but it doesn't really change my point. As Tal points out, she has one of the very few notable endgame stat differences. Dean is better is some paltry ways (2% HP more, 2.5% speed more, 50 WA 5 defense), while Avril is better in some other paltry ways (Res, MP!!!, Hit, Eva). However, the damage difference is pretty notable. Avril has about 40% damage. Dean has about 33% damage. And their damage ratio is going to be the same no matter what average you use. So Avril to be Puny...off what is essentially average stats doesn't make any sense if Dean is in Light. Puny is something like a Suikoden dog, where they have less than half the average damage, 60-70% of the HP, horrible defense, and are notably slow. People not greatly better than Avril have recently gone to Light finals (Anna- Better speed, worse defense), and people her strength (or worse!) can often win two matches in Light.
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Dean Stark - Light (No Medium. Not sure what people mean if they give him the Sea Medium though, since he'd be able to heal, play a limit game and build up to his ITD Force move, which would put him much, much higher and make him an interesting dueller).
What ITD Force move? If you mean Sonic Vision, it's not ITD, and it's not on the Sea medium anyway.
No, it's not on the Sea Medium, but he could continually heal until he would be able to use it. And if Sonic Vision isn't ITD, then it's got some OTHER screwy mechanic behind it that allows it to damage "plot" bosses.
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Maybe you had the Punch Glove equipped or whatever made crits ITD.
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No, it's not on the Sea Medium, but he could continually heal until he would be able to use it. And if Sonic Vision isn't ITD, then it's got some OTHER screwy mechanic behind it that allows it to damage "plot" bosses.
Um, he can't use it because it's not on his medium. He has no access to Sonic Vision.
Sonic Vision isn't ITD, unless you stack it with Punching Glove (turns crits into Finest Arts which are ITD). It does help in piercing defense though, IIRC. But doesn't completely ignore it.
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No, it's not on the Sea Medium, but he could continually heal until he would be able to use it. And if Sonic Vision isn't ITD, then it's got some OTHER screwy mechanic behind it that allows it to damage "plot" bosses.
Um, he can't use it because it's not on his medium. He has no access to Sonic Vision.
Sonic Vision isn't ITD, unless you stack it with Punching Glove (turns crits into Finest Arts which are ITD). It does help in piercing defense though, IIRC. But doesn't completely ignore it.
1. Tal, you're missing the point that I'm arguing the hypothetical that Djinn put forward and Dhyer argued. I'm not even saying Dean gets the Sea Medium in the DL. He gets no medium in the DL.
2. I stand corrected on the Punching Glove. I forgot about that.
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Tal's point is that it is impossible for Dean, or anyone else, to be able to heal and use Sonic Vision in the same battle. It's not a question of legal mediums; the fact is that WA5 characters can only equip one medium at once, and the Sea Medium isn't paired with Sonic Vision, Intrude, or any other ability that breaks the battle open from what I can recall.
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Avril Vent Fleur - 2.7. Has some semblance of damage at least.
Carol Anderson - 3.3
Chuck Preston - 2.8
Dean Stark - 2.6
Elvis - 4.4
Fereydoon - 4.8
Greg Russelberg - 3.3. Pyro's comments confuse me, elemental Heavy Crush hurts even without the ATK boost.
Ice Queen Avril - 4.8
Kartikeya - 4.3
Nightburn Acklund - 3.75
Persephone - 4.9
Rebecca Streisand - 2.8
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Avril Vent Fleur - Puny. Hilarious with practically no skills! I think there's like a 10% chance of her unique ability kicking in? (I give Avril the Mountain Medium cause I like handing out Mediums and there's that scene where it's handed to her and all, probably lets her get High Light!)
Chuck Preston - Light. Just... no damage and hardly any skills. At least he gets a Medium. (Same)
Dean Stark - Light. Not Puny due to Shovel Dean hype! (Middle with the Sea Medium or Sky Medium. High Light with the Mountain Medium. He has a decent claim for all three. I hand him the Sea Medium because Rebecca's the better mage early on when the two of them receive the Mediums, so she gets Sky. Yay.)
The main difference between Dean and Avril is a 22% damage difference...in Avril's favor (Okay, Dean has 2% more speed and 2.5% more HP)! They are very similar, and yet Avril is Puny with a Medium when Dean is High Light with that same Medium?
You've misread. I think Avril is Puny with no Medium.
With the Mountain Medium, yeah, she'd be High Light, too.
I did misinterpret this, but it doesn't really change my point. As Tal points out, she has one of the very few notable endgame stat differences. Dean is better is some paltry ways (2% HP more, 2.5% speed more, 50 WA 5 defense), while Avril is better in some other paltry ways (Res, MP!!!, Hit, Eva). However, the damage difference is pretty notable. Avril has about 40% damage. Dean has about 33% damage. And their damage ratio is going to be the same no matter what average you use. So Avril to be Puny...off what is essentially average stats doesn't make any sense if Dean is in Light. Puny is something like a Suikoden dog, where they have less than half the average damage, 60-70% of the HP, horrible defense, and are notably slow. People not greatly better than Avril have recently gone to Light finals (Anna- Better speed, worse defense), and people her strength (or worse!) can often win two matches in Light.
That's fair. I was just going with a kneejerk "Medium-less WA5 PC = Puny". Yes, I suppose Medium-less Avril is Light, not Puny.
Personally, I give out the Mediums because while the individual PCs are pretty interchangeable, the Mediums' skillsets are fairly interesting, and conveniently 6 PCs correspond well with the 6 Mediums. And 3 of them are already legal by initial equipment rules. The only really sticky point is which Mediums Dean and Rebecca should get from the initial two since they are both handed them at the same time. I was trying to assign them based on some gameplay-based argument, and the most logical one that comes to mind is that Rebecca's stats work with the Sky Medium better than Dean's.
It makes the cast interesting without breaking any of my personal interp views, so I'm standing by it. Notably, I also allow WA3 characters the elemental Mediums, and some FF8 characters get GFs, and Locke get Phoenix Esper. I'm all about handing out skillsets for even the most minor of plot calls.
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Greg Russelberg - 3.3. Pyro's comments confuse me, elemental Heavy Crush hurts even without the ATK boost.
Greg doesn't actually have a gameplay claim to the Sword Medium. He doesn't even come with it equipped.
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1. Tal, you're missing the point that I'm arguing the hypothetical that Djinn put forward and Dhyer argued. I'm not even saying Dean gets the Sea Medium in the DL. He gets no medium in the DL.
I'm not missing any point here. Basically see what NEB said, but I'll repeat it. Even with the Sea Medium, Dean cannot ever use Sonic Vision, because the Sea Medium does not have it. The Sword Medium and Luck Medium do.
Personally, I give out the Mediums because while the individual PCs are pretty interchangeable, the Mediums' skillsets are fairly interesting, and conveniently 6 PCs correspond well with the 6 Mediums. And 3 of them are already legal by initial equipment rules. The only really sticky point is which Mediums Dean and Rebecca should get from the initial two since they are both handed them at the same time. I was trying to assign them based on some gameplay-based argument, and the most logical one that comes to mind is that Rebecca's stats work with the Sky Medium better than Dean's.
Rebecca's stats work with the Sea Medium better than Dean's as well. And she'd probably rather have that one. This is why handing those two the other two mediums has serious issues. They BOTH want the Sea Medium, and if you try to go with a gameplay argument... Rebecca's better at both anyway.
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The best way to do it, assuming you want to give everyone a medium?
There are enough blank mediums to create 5 additional copies of each medium. So technically, if you wanted to give a medium to each PC? They'd all have the option of ANY medium - I can see that, actually, and while it makes the cast the same, they have a bit of uniqueness as a cast (just not individually - so one time they use the Sea Medium, the next time the Mountain, etc...though Sword, Sea, Sky, Luck probably will get the most use).
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Personally, I give out the Mediums because while the individual PCs are pretty interchangeable, the Mediums' skillsets are fairly interesting, and conveniently 6 PCs correspond well with the 6 Mediums. And 3 of them are already legal by initial equipment rules. The only really sticky point is which Mediums Dean and Rebecca should get from the initial two since they are both handed them at the same time. I was trying to assign them based on some gameplay-based argument, and the most logical one that comes to mind is that Rebecca's stats work with the Sky Medium better than Dean's.
Rebecca's stats work with the Sea Medium better than Dean's as well. And she'd probably rather have that one. This is why handing those two the other two mediums has serious issues. They BOTH want the Sea Medium, and if you try to go with a gameplay argument... Rebecca's better at both anyway.
Well, alternately, since both Mediums were handed to both characters in the plot scene (and that qualifies as plot-legal for me), I'd allow both of them their choice of Sea or Sky Mediums in a duel. Especially since by Endgame there's plenty of Sea and Sky mediums to go around.
Of course, giving them Medium choice is reflective of in-game, but it's not really something unique to either Dean or Rebecca, so I understand the argument against it, so that's why I was just handing out one Medium per PC as that seems like the intent of the system. It seems like a somewhat arbitrary call, but my reasoning is that a PC needs a good Magic stat to make offensive magic worthwhile (Sky), but those stats are less necessary to make healing (Sea) worthwhile. Thus, since Rebecca is the better mage at the time the plot hands you these two Mediums, Rebecca gets Sky, Dean gets Sea. Not arbitrary, just less definitive than most of the plot claims I allow.
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka - Heavy
Kanji Tatsumi - Heavy
Naoto Shirogane - Heavy
Souji Seta - Godlike
Teddie - Middle
Yosuke Hanamura - Heavy
Yukiko Amagi - Middle
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka- 4.0 Heavy
Kanji Tatsumi- 3.75 Middle/Heavy
Naoto Shirogane- 3.8 Low Heavy
Souji Seta- 5.50 Godlike Champion 5.00 Godlike
Teddie- 3.5 High Middle
Yosuke Hanamura- 3.75 Middle/Heavy
Yukiko Amagi- 3.75 Middle/Heavy
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur- 2.5 (Light)
Carol Anderson- 3.25 Middle
Chuck Preston- 3.0 Light/Middle
Dean Stark- 2.2 Light
Elvis- 4.5 Heavy/Godlike
Fereydoon- 4.7 Godlike
Greg Russelberg- 3.1 Low Middle
Ice Queen Avril- 4.6 Low Godlike
Kartikeya- 4.5 Heavy/Godlike
Nightburn Acklund- 3.8 Low Heavy
Persephone- 4.8 Godlike
Rebecca Streisand- 2.2 Light
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WA5 PC Cast: The entire PC Cast a DNR. Why? Because they're almost all without Mediums, and given that there's probably no one who'd play them without Mediums, it's just too confusing to those members who only vote and don't visit the forums. (Not to mention personal sentiment that feels it's silly to rank PCs at the lowest of their potential)
WA5 Boss Cast: With the exception of Nightburn, High Heavies all of them. Nightburn a High Middle.
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Well that's just silly. Nobody seems to have trouble dealing with FFVIII and their ability to lose if they don't get limits. Cait Sith's win/loss record is pretty consistent with a majority of voters assuming his Transform Materia but not every materia ever. Nobody would use Relm without teaching her spells, yet her DL record doesn't show the sort of wins access to FFVI magic would imply... I could probably go on.
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Or to make the most specific example, WA 3, a game with Medium skillset where the only 1/4 of the DL PCs have a Medium (As opposed to half with WA 5; and WA 3 can even triple stack Mediums) has usually been pretty spot on with matches.
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka- Heavy. Damage, evasion, speed. She can be walled but it's not easy, the asskicking she gave proving grounds so far proves what division she belongs in.
Kanji Tatsumi- Low Heavy. Uber durability and good damage, but he's slow and doesn't like evasion.
Naoto Shirogane- Low Heavy. Evasive, quick ID whore. It works.
Souji Seta- Godlike. He can be beaten (See Souji vs the world), but it isn't easy. All that flexability boils down to him kicking your ass with a lot of nasty physical damage and tanking with Enduring Soul.
Teddie- Middle. Weak to thunder, slow, not durable. Good healing/buff package but...
Yosuke Hanamura- Heavy. Red Mage+5. He covers his bases well and does speed/damage well enough to deserve this.
Yukiko Amagi- High Middle. Ice weakness and bad physical durability. Evasion should help some.
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This closes tonight, so get your votes in now.
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka- 3.80. Oh god, she brings the pain with Powercharged God's Hand. I guess Evade hype goes in as well. Hates anyone who can get good damage past that evade, though, or in turn has solid evasion.
Kanji Tatsumi- 3.70. Hates status, and isn't that fond of magic, either--and his low-HP offense is honestly laughable. Psychotic out the gate, though, with stupidly good pDur and a very high 2HKO in Primal Force
Naoto Shirogane- 3.82. Fast deathwhoring plus Endure. She's going to kill many, many PCs.
Souji Seta- 5.00. I'd rate him higher if I could. God knows the bastard destroys just about everyone.
Teddie- 3.44. Honestly, he comes off as cast-worst due to his resist set. Ice isn't as common as Lightning, which the poor bastard's weak to. Otherwise, Yukiko- with buffs.
Yosuke Hanamura- 3.85. Variety is one of those things that I tend to get sold on. Speed, durability, Suku, Confuse...well, he's honestly got enough variety for most things. Having solid wind damage as his primary magic helps as well.
Yukiko Amagi - 3.66. Bad physical durability, and ice weakness. But nulls fire and resists lightning. Those elements are very common in the DL.
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur - 2.80. Pity she doesn't get the Sword Medium. That one actually meshes with her ATK-focused stats and ARM. I give her the claim to the Mountain Medium, anyway.
Carol Anderson - 3.20. Her strategy is one-dimensional. It's a lot better than the others so far.
Chuck Preston - 2.71. Prism Staff at least gives him a chance at Intrude. ...that's about all you can say.
Dean Stark - 2.4. I don't give him any claim to Mediums. He really is lacking without it.
Elvis - 4.32. Weakest of the Sentinels. That's not saying much, given that he's got durability and what seems to amount to Maximum Risk. He despises solid non-Water elemental damage, though.
Fereydoon - 4.91. Doesn't quite 3-2 average, and has subpar PDEF. He also doesn't really care, given the combination of perfect ID and ITE ~1.25xPCHP overkill that is Laser Silhouette, and his assload of HP. Wind's not even that common of an element in the DL.
Greg Russelberg - 3.15. Sky Medium fits his ARM much better. Though, given that he does have Sword Medium, it's safe to say he has some damage, at least.
Ice Queen Avril - 4.40. 4D Pocket, as Belial has demonstrated, is a brutal PC-killer trick, and she's got the speed to use it. Hyper->Life Drain/Hi-Water/Hi-Blast hype works if that doesn't.
Kartikeya - 4.78. Solid 2HKO wind damage, and his weakness is straight-out rare in the DL. Counter hype helps as well. His RES blows, though, and his special doesn't even OHKO reliably.
Nightburn Acklund - 3.54 Godlike theme song. Still a good cut above the PCs.
Persephone - 5.00. WA5's resident Boobinite happens to have the worst durability and only merely above-average spee--OH GOD OVER 2xPCHP ITE OVERKILL.
Rebecca Streisand - 2.53. She's...faster than Dean, and her repeat-attack has a chance of triggering. ...That's about all you can say about her.
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*Blinks* IS that IQA heavy vote a typo, Nama?
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Eh. I was a bit hasty in assigning values this time, admittedly.
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CMDR_King has made me see the error of my ways. You are argument are very convincing.
All WA5 PCs go to Light, except Carol who goes to Middle, then.
Avril and Ice Queen Avril, eh, still different entities to me, so.
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Chie Satonaka: 3.75
Kanji Tatsumi: 3.75
Naoto Shirogane: 3.50
Souji Seta: 5.00
Teddie: 3.60
Yosuke Hanamura: 3.90
Yukiko Amagi: 3.30
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka - Low Heavy
Kanji Tatsumi - Low Heavy
Naoto Shirogane - Middle/Heavy
Souji Seta - Godlike
Teddie - Middle
Yosuke Hanamura - Middle/Heavy
Yukiko Amagi - Middle
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur - Light
Carol Anderson - High Middle
Chuck Preston - High Light
Dean Stark - Light
Elvis - Heavy
Fereydoon - Godlike
Greg Russelberg - High Middle
Ice Queen Avril - Low Godlike
Kartikeya - Heavy/Godlike
Nightburn Acklund - High Middle
Persephone - Godlike
Rebecca Streisand - Light
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Persona 4
Chie Satonaka - Low Heavy. Not seeing all the Miori shirt hype, but being able to "store" PC, along with decent base speed and damage certainly is passable
Kanji Tatsumi - High Middle. Really borderline. On one hand, awesome HP and damage. On the other hand, costs HP and he's slow as molasses
Naoto Shirogane - High Middle. Snow sums it up quite well. Unfortunately, I think her capability to spoil is a lot worse than Wugui though. Probably costs that border for me.
Souji Seta - (high) Godlike - loses to like 10 people in Godlike as per proving grounds with Skill inheretence. Yeah.
Teddie - Low Middle. See Yukiko. Replace Ice Weakness with Lightning. Worse set of resists too (Wind/Dark doesn't do as well as Thunder resist)
Yosuke Hanamura - Low Heavy. Funnily enough, Yosuke is probably not as hampered by having Souji in the averages since his entire thing is versitality. Weapons, skills...he has them.
Yukiko Amagi - Low Middle. Whee sluggish, low HP and Ice weakness >_>. Having Souji along in the average means her damage takes a hit and the speed is even worse. Yeah.
Wild ARMS 5
Avril Vent Fleur - Light. Can't really see this changing even if you gave her the medium
Carol Anderson - High Middle. Pretty sure I worked this out with Tal early on when the game was still relatively new. If you include the speed boost, the ITD Draining + possible status immunity makes her quite amusing for spoilage.
Chuck Preston - Low Middle. The one time he got into NR Light, it was pretty smooth sailing. Then again, NR Light. Still, thinking the damage boost along with speed certainly help. Also think he had Intrude to boot. Not champing or anything, but thinking too strong for Light.
Dean Stark - Light. Double Critical Hype. YESZ
Elvis - Heavy. Weaknesses cost him, although a few of them aren't as horrible in practice. His charge move being frue limity makes him comparatively worse. Fast and damaging though
Fereydoon - Godlike. Think he was the other Sentinel that had speed.
Greg Russelberg - High Middle. Sword Medium makes him more respectable certainly
Ice Queen Avril - Low Godlike. Fast 4D Pocket is probably at least Heavy. Having good damage and decent durability to go along with that though? Awesome
Kartikeya - Heavy/Godlike. Also comparatively less dangerous on charge move. Not bad though, but not as fast as Fereydoon or as badass as Pers. HP Helps out.
Nightburn Acklund - Middle. Certainly respect his HP less than some. Speed helps though
Persephone - Godlike. Isn't that fast on base speed. But has Quicken to boost it. And then 9000 WA5 PC damage. Aw yeah.
Rebecca Streisand - Light. Continuous Shot is cute but no >_>
Yeah, my WA5 rankings are pretty much the same as Tal's. We worked this out pretty early IIRC
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P4 Chie Satonaka Heavy 3.94
P4 Kanji Tatsumi Middle 3.71
P4 Naoto Shirogane Heavy 3.75
P4 Souji Seta Godlike 4.99
P4 Teddie Middle 3.32
P4 Yosuke Hanamura Heavy 3.87
P4 Yukiko Amagi Middle 3.43
WA5 Avril Vent Fleur Light 2.48
WA5 Carol Anderson Middle 3.10
WA5 Chuck Preston Light 2.65
WA5 Dean Stark Light 2.44
WA5 Elvis Godlike 4.57
WA5 Fereydoon Godlike 4.88
WA5 Greg Russelberg Middle 3.04
WA5 Ice Queen Avril Godlike 4.80
WA5 Kartikeya Godlike 4.70
WA5 Nightburn Acklund Middle 3.51
WA5 Persephone Godlike 4.92
WA5 Rebecca Streisand Light 2.36