The RPG Duelling League
RPGDL Games => Forum Games => Topic started by: AndrewRogue on February 05, 2008, 02:31:53 AM
-
Welcome to Azeroth! Or, more appropriately, welcome to the World of Warcraft message boards.
See, the thing is, the developers? Most of them have gotten tired of all the bitching, the moaning and the QQing about class balance. Since apparently all the players think they can do SOOOOOO much better, they've decided to turn the matter over to them. Indeed, they picked out a bunch of lucky(?) players and basically dropped all the class notes in their lap and told them that they could sort out class balance. The real class devs were going to take a break and get the hell out of town.
Well. Most of them. See, some of the devs have pet classes and they really aren't content to let you all, the brain-dead, mouth breathing players that make up the WoW fanbase, have any say over their pet classes. So, with some clever negotiations, a lot of begging and a few bribes, they managed to sneak themselves in with the rest of the players. They weren't going to let their classes get ruined, no matter what it took.
Of course, the debates raged long and hard as to how the classes could be balanced. For the most part, it was just nerdy argumentation, shouting and occasionally breaking for pizza. That was, right up until the lucky player who had been in charge of the upcoming Death Knight class dropped dead. Turns out his drink had been poisoned. Apparently, somebody had taken his nerf cries very personally.
Somewhere, in the small crowd, the sneaky devs smiled internally. They would make their classes come out on top... even if it meant losing a few of their 10 million subscribers.
With the doors locked and the entire office out for the weekend, the arguments were really heating up. After all, it wasn't just about class balance now. It was about survival. If you, the players, can't ferret who the crazed devs are... well, suffice to say, you won't be very concerned about Patch 2.4.
WoW. It is serious business.
---
Rules! Please follow them or you'll be banned!
- No editing your posts.
- No talking outside the thread unless your role specifically states that you may.
- No posting during game nights.
- No spectator posts with content.
- Do not directly quote your role PM or conversations with the mod. Paraphrase is okay. Check with me before posting if you're unsure.
- There may or may not be third parties with separate win conditions from the town/mafia.
- There are no players or parties that would cause the game to end Day 1 or Night 1.
- Don't try to cheat or break the game in any way. Use common sense.
- PLAY TO WIN. Failure to at least put in an effort ruins the game for everyone else. Playing poorly is fine, and to an extent expected, but sabotaging your side deliberately or through massive apathy will get you modkilled.
- Please try to at least post a paragraph or two of useful content every 24 hours or so.
- You do not need to post "in character" or do anything special regarding flavor. If you want to, it's fine, but it may complicate the game or accidentally give away your role, which is generally bad.
- Individual players may have "hidden" abilities that were not included in their role PM, but can be revealed by certain events happening in the game. Additionally, there may or may not be 'scripted sequences' of events that may change the rules of the game or do other things if certain events happen.
---
Class Representatives Still Kicking
1. Smodge13
2. EvilTom
3. Carthrat
4. Corwin
5. QR
6. Alex
7. Lady Door
The Ganked
1. Strago (TOWN): Even Deathcoil could not save him...
2. Ciato (TOWN DOCTOR): Apparently, free Ice Block wasn't that OPed...
3. QR (TOWN COP): I guess Vanish is broken...
4. Carthrat (TOWN): Go go Bubble-hearth?
---
Day 1 Ends in approximately 24 hours, at 6:30 PST.
-
##Vote: LadyDoor is a level 1 newbie, she can't come with us on VC runs yet.
-
##Vote: Carthrat
Because I wanted the first post, darnnit.
-
SPROING!
-
Ho ho ho. Hello, all.
-
Not even ten minutes from the snap and I'm up for elimination for inability? That hurts. ;_;
(Note to self: QQ more? less.)
* Lady Door spins a pen and decides...
##VOTE Ciato
-
##VOTE: Alex
Why not?
-
#Vote Leeroy Jenkins - You know he's here >.>"
##Vote: Strago
That's not a reason!
-
##Vote: QR because she didn't get the first post and is trying to eliminate the one who did!
-
Welcome to Azeroth! Or, more appropriately, welcome to the World of Warcraft message boards.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
- Individual players may have "hidden" abilities that were not included in their role PM, but can be revealed by certain events happening in the game. Additionally, there may or may not be 'scripted sequences' of events that may change the rules of the game or do other things if certain events happen.
What? No there aren't. This is C9, right? Don't be lazy with cut and paste on game rules! :P
##Vote: Rat
He is always scum. Seriously.
-
!@#$!#%$@%#!^%
##Unvote, ##Vote: Alex
HATE FOR MEMES
-
It's not a meme, it's a statement of fact! This is WOWFORUMMAFIASERIOUSBUSINESS and I'll post what I want!
-
I WANT A BLUE RESPONSE ON MEMES
THEY ARE UNBALANCED AND SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE GAME BECAUSE I CAN'T WIN PVPS AGAINST MEMES
KTHXBYE
-
WHY ARE WE TALKING IN ALL CAPS IN HERE?
-
It's cruise-control for cool XD
-
Anyway soooooooo everyone should bandwagon Alex! Memes are lame, and the 'rat is always scum' meme is the lamest of them all, 'cos it's totally untrue, and he needs to be bandwagon'd on day 1 more often. Better than bandwagoning me!
Also, Smodge has yet to post, and he should, so there's always another option.
-
eenie meanie miney mo, who do i pick?
Vote:Ciato
Geez rat, im home from work 5 minutes and your complaining about my lack of posting?.
-
An Alex is fine, too.
And smodge seems really scummy so fa-- ahahaha, one of this days he really will be scum and it will be epic.
EDIT:
smodge posts. Is it sad that the line above remains unchanged despite that?
-
I recently started a new job, so my posting times are alot less than usual, essentially on weekdays they are Now, 9 hours from this post and 13-14 hours after this post (only a maybe), it should be enough to keep up, i am going to set up a thing where i am auto-emailed every post as it is made (if i can work out how) work has the site blocked out on all computers except 1 which i can access during my lunch break, hence only a maybe on that last one.
Anyway 3-4 posts per 24 hrs i'll try to make them count
-
Damn, forgot a comma, Now, 9 hours from now, and 13-14 hours from now are the times.
-
Wow, two votes on me already. A most disturbing train, I must say. I guess if Rat is bitter over memes than I suppose that two votes on Alex makes sense, but I suppose trains have to start somewhere. "Oh I'm going to randomly vote for someone" was the reason for -both- of the people who voted for me, which I find bothersome, especially the second one, since smodge is traditionally not one to take up such actions. So...
##VOTE: smodge
-
If you all feel you need an extension, simply vote extension!
-
I am going to admit to non-knowledge. What the bleep is a meme?
-
Meme is a fad that gets overblown or something, I think.
-
My handy Babylon translator insists that Meme (n) is... "cultural idea, social practice, concept or action that becomes a norm and begins to repeat itself consciously in a society (term coined by Richard Dawkins in his book "The Selfish Gene", 1976)"
Anyway, it's going slow, so instead of an extension, how about a request for a votecount? Maybe that along with the time left in the day would push everyone, myself included, into action?
-
wow, sorry Ciato, i had thought of, in advance a couple of my joke votes, unfortunately the only 1 that fit with the players was your own.
Now however we need more talk, it seems things are a bit too quiet (compared to how much VTM is on 4 pages and we're still one 1)
So for now.
##Unvote:Ciato
Strago and Lady door are only sitting on 1 post a piece but maybe we haven't given enough time to them yet, LaL is tempting but i will hold off for now (especially considering i will be at work and unable to remove the vote)
-
Yeah, well, VtM had a dayvig roleclaim as its first post. This game on the other hand has a standard day 1. Which is to say, lack of direction, or anything interesting to talk about other than memes and injokes.
So, okay, serious time GET, I guess. Gutclaims are not good, as a rule, but I've learned the hard way as scum that Ciato's are right an astonishing amount of the time... when she's got a seed of reason backing them up. Here, Smodge has a decidedly odd first post, even for a jokevote, and his quick removal but lack of replacement is odder. That's... something odd, certainly. Let's roll with it. I was going to insert some sort of need before greed joke here but then I realized I was going to make a WoW joke and bashed my head into the wall until it bled.
##Unvote: Rat
##Vote: Smodge
-
even for a jokevote, and his quick removal but lack of replacement is odder. That's... something odd, certainly.
Joke vote was removed because i wanted the game to start to shift into serious mode, the lack of talk was disturbing and its too easy for scum to hide in the silence, as for lack of replacement, i leave for work in 30 minutes and unless i get a chance to post during my lunch break my next post won't be for 12 hours, in random you berated me several times for placing a vote when i wouldn't be around to see the result so i've heeded your advice.
If i get a chance during my lunch break thats when i'll post who i vote for.
As for my jokevote, it was exactly that a joke vote, i didn't even notice it started a train until Ciato pointed it out (VTM mafia had distracted me).
-
Not quite. The argument you're referring to in Random was that you absentee-voted while you had been criticizing people for doing the same. Nothing particularly wrong in and of itself with dropping a vote on someone that you'd be okay with lynching, especially in the earlygame. Better than not giving a serious vote at all, to be sure. Attacking other people and calling an action scummy when you've done it yourself that game, now - that's bad.
-
##Vote:Site Alex
A Bit of OGMus, but since when do you go for gutclaims?, admittedly Ciato is often right, however i specifically remember both yourself and Rat in touhou berating people on speaking about their gut.
oh wait, you were both scum then.
Seeing as you want me to vote seriously then i shall.
##Vote: Strago
Lady door is rather new so lurkerish tactics can be minorly forgiven, as for Strago, he is nowhere near new and knows how things go.
Owel at least the game is getting into serious mode, which was my aim >.> although myself as a target wasn't.
You stress that i don't OMGus which im trying not to, scum if anything would be more likely to jump on a train to kill me late in the game so at least it should give a fair bit of evidence.
Won't be back for a while, if it comes to it at least give me a chance to further defend myself before lynching me.
-
Seems that you've already resigned to being lynched. Lurkers really need to post more before I can say much of anything else, yes, yes?
-
i'm only minorly resigned, simply because unlike other games i won't be here.
If i'm not around to defend myself for such a long time 12 hours, its a possibility a bandwagon will form and i will be lynched without much of a word other than what i've said here.
I'm not resigned to it, hell i intend to do my usual and try to find scum on the train that forms upon myself, but with such a long time away it may be dificult to defend myself before its too late.
-
More trying not to fail classes/get enough sleep to attend classes/attend classes than anything. Silly me, I tend to pay attention when I'm there, too.
Anyway, here now. First things first: removal of joke vote.
##UNVOTE Ciato
Now onto substance. Unofficial vote count puts smodge and Strago at 2 votes each, and everyone else with 1 vote a piece except for myself and EvilTom. All 9 of us have weighed in after a fashion, some of us (I'm looking at ... uh... me, mostly) less so than others. So! Real game now SRSLY. ... except it's day one. And it ends in 4 hours. With so little time left, I'm looking at the lurker that isn't me, and that means
##VOTE Strago
-
Getting down to the deadline and I'm all for moving things along. Removing joke vote and applying LAL. Day 1 gives us so little else to work with, really. And the deadline does fast approach.
##Unvote Carth, ##Vote Strago
-
I'm always hesitant to vote for lurkerism unless I know someone is actually lurking. I'm going to give Strago the benefit of the doubt as a matter of rule.
On the other hand, I'm not going to attack Smodge/Lady Door over it either; it's a smart scum play, but also a valid town play.
Honestly, I'm going to FoS Alex. To me it looks like you're just using poor Ciato as a scapegoat for a train. But, I'm making an effort not to get into townie-fights after TouHou et al, so let's see what you say about it.
Also the post just doesn't seem right; it's as though you're trying to push something without touching it.
Gutclaims are not good, as a rule, but I've learned the hard way as scum that Ciato's are right an astonishing amount of the time... when she's got a seed of reason backing them up. Here, Smodge has a decidedly odd first post, even for a jokevote, and his quick removal but lack of replacement is odder. That's... something odd, certainly. Let's roll with it.
Quoted.
Votecount + Timeleft would be nice :3
-
Smodge13 (2): Ciato, Alex
EvilTom (0)
Ciato(0): LadyDoor, Smodge
Carthrat (0): QR, Alex
Corwin (0)
QR (1): Corwin
Alex (2): Strago, Carth
Strago (4): EvilTom, Smodge, LadyDoor, QR
Lady Door (0): Carth
With 9 Alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Currently, Strago will by lynched at the end of the day.
Day ends at 6:30, PST. This is to say, 3 hours and 15 minutes from this post.
-
Oh crap, didn't realise it was so soon. What happens in the case of a tie? (If I shift my Strago to Alex)
-
Smodge: I will STILL berate people for gutclaims in this game if that's all they've got. I loathe reading that particular argument. It has not suddenly become a good idea this game or anything, it's still BAD and you won't get away with just saying "I think xyz for no reason" on my watch!
<->
Hey Tom aren't you still voting for Strago? That's not giving him the benefit of the doubt. Which you shouldn't really be doing anyway, but I digress.
"Smart scum play" and "Valid town play" are very often synonymous. This is equivalent to going around and saying "but he COULD BE SCUM" and reiterating paranoia doesn't usually get us very for.
Alex is using Ciato as a scapegoat what? Last I checked, he was voting for Smodge. o-o
Strago getting lynched for lurking is fine, I would vote him myself right now but that'd be hammer. Do we NEED majority to lynch, though? 'cos then I'll have no hesitation.
What do you mean by 'effort not to get into townie-fights'? You can't put pressure on people and be strong about your arguments with an attitude like that; if you ARE going to question someone you might as well go the whole way.
Edit: I'll be voting for Strago at this point over Alex, so.. yeah.
-
Hey Tom aren't you still voting for Strago? That's not giving him the benefit of the doubt. Which you shouldn't really be doing anyway, but I digress.
My vote on Strago was just hanging there since my jokevote a page or two back. I was going to unvote Strago, then I noticed we were almost out of time so I just left it there until I got further info on what happens if it's a tievote.
I'd rather we lynch Strago than nobody.
(Sorry, slightly distracted getting a replacement for VtM, but I'll decide my vote before the end of this day)
So yes, I'd *like* Strago to stop lurking, but with 3 hours left I don't think that's going to happen :( And an extension isn't really going to help us much, unfortunately, since we don't have anything real to go off.
-
In the event of a tie, there will be a period of sudden death (say, 1.5 hours) and then, if no consensus is reached, I will roll for death.
-
Well I hate dice (and they hate me), so I guess I'll stay on Strago.
-
I, uh... what? Ciato... scapegoat... what? You know what scapegoat means, right? It's not applicable here. I agree with her stated reason for voting Smodge and will put him forth as a candidate for lynching, or would except for that thing where Strago's mysteriously vanished after saying two words. (And, obviously, if someone tied the vote between myself and Strago I'd move to Strago.)
-
Mind explaining why you want to vote for Alex, Tom?
-
Oh, I didn't think it was worth a vote, I just wanted to point it out. The way he was just going with whatever you said looked a bit dodgy. The whole 'me-too'-ism thing. It's our job to point these things out. In terms of the best lynch though, it's definately looking like Strago. Anyway, it's -1 isn't it? My vote is already on him, so it's up to
someone else to continue this further.
-
Continue it further? Considering that Strago's said all of two words in the game so far (and an apparent jokevote on me) I think it would be highly uncouth to hammer the guy without giving him the chance to come back and roleclaim or give thoughts or say something....
-
Quick warning. Since I'll be at a class, I'll probably be a few late for the deadline.
Suffice to say, don't chatter beyond it.
-
Anyway, I think that smodge misspoke. I think what he meant was that voting for him, which he seems to think will automatically turn into a lynch (okay), and lynching him will cause the terribly evil, scummy Alex to blame me for getting smodge killed. Or something. I prefer ice cream.
-
You mean you think that EvilTom misspoke.
Still waiting for Strago etc will hammer him shortly before deadline if he doesn't speak, there can be no mercy!
-
Right. You Aussies...
-
So uh yeah twenty minutes to go, I see nothing forthcoming. Right.
##Vote: Strago
-
Or I can do it RIGHT.
##Unvote, ##Vote: Strago
-
HAMMER and such. Stop talking. Flip in a moment.
-
Smodge13 (2): Ciato, Alex
EvilTom (0)
Ciato(0): LadyDoor, Smodge
Carthrat (0): QR, Alex
Corwin (0)
QR (1): Corwin
Alex (0): Strago, Carth
Strago (5): EvilTom, Smodge, LadyDoor, QR, Carth
Lady Door (0): Carth
Alas, no longer was the argument about class balance, but rather about who the hell was out to kill the poor frazzled players. Back and forth the arguments raged (occasionally punctuated by a cry to get back on topic about class balance just let the deaths happen as they came), but then, they noticed that one among them was silent.
"That must be the guy!"
"Yeah, WoW players would never be quiet!"
"He doesn't smell either! He must not be a real player!"
Thus, the wannabe class devs became a wannabe lynch mob.
Silently, Strago went to the lynch. Silently, he dangled. Silently, a thirty page story about how awesome his Forsaken Warlock was fell from his jacket. Only a real player would waste that much of his time.
Strago, wannabe Warlock dev (TOWN) has been lynched.
I guess Warlocks weren't that overpowered, huh?
PLEASE SEND IN NIGHT ACTIONS NOW.
-
Another day dawns in the meeting room, and alas, our weary players, having slept after a long day of debate, were highly concerned that one of them might not be there when they woke up. Of course, this was silly. You all were locked in! Nobody could leave.
At least, in the physical sense.
In the state of living sense, however... it was poor Ciato that the lot of you stumbled on in the morning, frozen solid, undoubtedly with liquid nitrogen. Attached to her? A note that simply read "QQ more, mages. Enjoy your free Iceblock."
Ciato, temporary Mage Rep (TOWN ALIGNED DOCTOR) got ganked!
Day 2 ends 24 Hours from now. Extension voting to make the day 24 hours longer is available. Remember, More Pew Pew, Less QQ!
Perhaps I also should have mentioned, with 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch?
-
....oooowwwwwwwwwwww.
Whelp.
##Vote: Smodge
Same reasons as yesterday.
-
*sigh* Nothing to kill a mood like seeing the doc go night 1. Weeeeellll, hmm.
Really no one stood out too much yesterday except Smodge, and even he was only moderately odd. But Ciato did call him out and she did end up dead. It could be a frame or just scum protecting their own. Since it's total WIFOM, I ignore that part completely and go with the fact that she was town and is usually pretty good at sniffing out the scum.
Unless I see something else that seems scummier to me, this'll do for a Day 2 start vote anyway.
##Vote Smodge
-
D: Nooooo, our doc!
I'm more inclined to believe frame. Sure, it's WIFOM, but it just seems more likely to me. Given that it's Smodge. I reckon scum aimed for the frame, and got lucky with doc.. blah. No vote yet.
-
huh what explain what you're talking about, Tom. ##Vote: EvilTom until I understand. o-o
-
Oh I get it. Must read more than one post. Right. ##Unvote.
-
:P
-
... fantastic start. >_<
I didn't see any other viable candidates from yesterday, really, except the two lurkers (Corwin and Strago) and one of them was significantly more lurkey than the other. There's been plenty of logical arguing from everyone except Corwin and... uh... me. I know I'm town. Corwin I know nothing about, but that's because he hasn't posted. Seems that Lynch All Lurkers thing only ended with the loss of a townie (two, really, since it drove us right into night), so I'm going to let that one lie for the moment.
I agree smodge looks a bit scummy. Page 2, he calls out the people sitting on 1 post a piece, but at that point his 4 posts are nothing but joke vote, explanation of timing, correction, and a call out to the lurkers. How is that any better? It smells like covering by misdirection, asking us to look at the number of posts rather than what they say.
I don't agree with Alex's original reasons for voting for him since it was a jokevote, but smodge seems resigned to being lynched and preemptively asks for a chance to defend himself before that happens. I can see where he's coming from considering how long he's going to be gone, but it felt as off to me as Ciato says it was to her. Look who's dead now?
...
Yeah, that sounds kind of flimsy to me, too. But at the moment I have no real reason to be looking at anyone else. So...
##VOTE smodge
-
woah woah WOAH we're at -1 to hammer already. Just, you know. Saying.
-
****.
If scum isn't already on the train, then they'll probably hammer... which means I'm suspicios of all of you, especially LD, for putting Smodge on the block.
-
Uh yeah if anyone hammers this early in the day, I know who I'm voting for tomorrow. I don't really have the time or energy to go through stuff right now- I hope the day is still going when I get back. I'll definately be back long before the day ends, so I see no reason to smash a hammer now.
I'd like Alex and QR to substantiate their cases somewhat, I *guess*.
-
Uh wow quicklynch much?
##Unvote: Smodge so he's not at -1. Really want to hear from him, though I can already guess what he's going to say and where his vote's going to go.
-
... um. Sorry. That's me not paying attention to what a huge difference 2 people missing makes to the number of people it takes to confirm a lynch. :-[
-
Not paying attention? Classic scumtell.
-
And I'm 5 minutes behind Alex's post or I'd pull mine too. We want enough votes to prompt a good solid reply, not make it easy for scum to hammer. I think 2 votes is fine, so I'm keeping mine on.
Carth, I hope that explains my vote. I'm really just wanting to push Smodge to talk and get some discussion going. We don't really have much else to go on, so...gotta start somwehere.
-
Case on Smodge:
A. What QR said.
B. From yesterday, he had a weird jokevote on Ciato, putting her at 2, then when questioned pulled it off and later moved to Strago. What I find most eyebrow-raising here is his unvote when Ciato prodded him, plus a bit of confusion/contradiction regarding whether or not he wanted to drop a serious vote on someone.
-
I'm sorry I don't have a cleverly crafted explanation for my oversight, Tom? I honestly just wanted to outline my thoughts, and since they overwhelmingly leaned toward smodge I figured I'd turn that into a vote. Didn't realize the existing 2 votes + my vote would put us at -1. It's more a case of me forgetting just how few people are in the game and, therefore, how few people it takes to reach -1 for a lynch. So, sorry. We're back at -2 now (thanks Alex).
##UNVOTE smodge
Even though it's pretty clear where I stand at this point, I'll remove it to prevent anything weird happening.
I'm... still worried about having not heard from Corwin at this point, though. He hasn't posted since noon yesterday and I know he's been posting to VtM, soooo. Yeah.
Just waiting to hear from smodge and Corwin.
-
here but not for long, only got 10 minutes of my lunch break.
Framing a post now.
-
Thanks for almost hammering me >.>
Lady door bringing me to -1 looks bad, however Patch did similar in Touhou and was town, seemed a newbie error but when it puts me close to hammer it does get irritating don't let it happen again ^_^.
Ciato's death looks bad for me, almost unbelievably so, tempted to think frame up but Alex's comment about Ciato often being right is accurate and it's probably more that she was a good townie.
Alex looks worst to me, but thats probably coming from OMGus, i trained Ciato yes, but when i realised it was a train i removed it (also wanted the game out of joke vote and into serious, there was way too much silence).
As for lady door i know i haven't posted much, i am limited with my time frame hence i will try to make meaningful posts when i can, LaL is common thing to do day 1 and was exactly what i was doing, voting for the Lurker so they would post more.
Reason i was resigned to the lynch is i wouldn't be around until deadline and without any way to defend myself i could see little way of getting myself off the leading vote train hence my flailing.
The quick train on me i need to look at which is pretty simple, Lady Door, QR and Alex.
Every game i seem to think Alex is scum, it always happens so i won't vote for him as it seems paranoia + omgus driving my desire to vote for him.
However i can see the purpose of the votes coming from QR it's to promote conversation which was my aim with the vote on Strago, however he didn't respond and it turned into a full blown lynch.
QR looks town to me.
Anyway running low on time so.
Rat i'm interested in your thoughts on people you generally have an accurate read on people.
Corwin - Post more, period, you seem more lurkerish than Lady Door atm, then again it could just be a timing issue.
Tom your being a lot more quieter than usual i'm also interested in your thoughts.
Alex/Lady Door look worst, Lady my usual newbie cautiousness is holding me back, either way these 2 are where i'm tempted to put my vote on.
My vote i will save until i get home tonight, 4-5 hours from now.
-
Well. That's an inauspicious start.
Smodge better know he's in for some posting, but he's not the only one whom I find puzzling, so I'll focus on Lady Door, myself. First of all, lurker? Me? Where do you come off saying that? Really, is it too much to ask not to expect me to post while I sleep or while there's hammer and thus a night phase?
Let's look at your day 2 posts so far:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=363.msg7449#msg7449
You're saying Strago and I lurked. Except my 'lurking' took place after I participated (admittedly, in day 1 posting) and then went to bed. Also, the entire second paragraph talks about LAL as an option and discusses candidates... before moving off from it. I don't like the way you're naming me without actually committing to it, even with a FoS or whatever.
The fourth paragraph is likewise puzzling. After already stating she believes smodge seems scummy in paragraph 3, she then goes on to say she understands where he's coming from and disagrees with Alex's original case. And in the end the previous reason smodge looks scummy... no longer is relevant, because what matters is that Ciato didn't like him? Now, I agree that's a perfectly valid reason to demand explanations out of smodge, but what happened to all your previous thoughts for and against his guilt? Do they just magically disappear?
Eh, and you're saying there are no other people to look at? In the same post you're saying you disagree with Alex's reasons for voting smodge day 1? Yeah, it may be an even flimsier reason to vote a person, but that doesn't preclude you from looking at him. So why aren't you? Because you honestly think smodge is scum, or because you're going for the easy target?
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=363.msg7462#msg7462
The next post, quoted here in its entirety:
... um. Sorry. That's me not paying attention to what a huge difference 2 people missing makes to the number of people it takes to confirm a lynch.
Bah, smilie won't get c/p'd. Whatever. Seriously, how do you read http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=363.msg7414#msg7414 , the actual post you're basing your vote on (Ciato's death/flip) and miss this mod line: "Perhaps I also should have mentioned, with 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch?"
...on rereading, there's an edit on that post, so it could've been edited before she saw it but not before I did. Hmm, anyone mind confirming this bit for me? For the record, I still think it's puzzling someone would just lose track in a small game where all the previous votes for smodge are on this very same page and the total list of players is just two pages away... but it would be less decisive, so yeah.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=363.msg7486#msg7486
LD's third post today. I... don't buy her response to Tom.
Now, however... she both mentions that Alex unvoting puts smodge at -2... and unvotes herself! What. Let's reiterate. Smodge is now at 1 vote! It would take 3 more to lynch him! Why the hell are you removing your vote at this time if you really believe he's guilty (and you say that later in that same post!)?
If you realize you've made a mistake voting for him in the first place (though your response to Tom, again, doesn't sound like you believe that), then how is making another bad move even remotely a good idea? Unless you're flailing. And you indeed hurriedly look for another target. Me? Why are you worried about not hearing from me at 5:26am, pray tell?
I'm... still worried about having not heard from Corwin at this point, though. He hasn't posted since noon yesterday and I know he's been posting to VtM, soooo. Yeah.
YES. I was posting in VtM where there had been no hammer/night phase during my waking hours. And you know, reading this third post was what made me type all that up, because VtM had a lengthy, heated discussion over extensions, and the use of timelines was brought up. I know I commented on mine being different from the US ones. I know you read those posts while making a comprehensive read of the thread to support a case on Alex. So where does the disconnect come from?
##Vote: Lady Door
Make with the explanations yourself, why don't you?
-
Tom your being a lot more quieter than usual i'm also interested in your thoughts.
Talk about the kettle calling the pot black. I'm sure I've been more active than you.
By the way, it's "more quiet" or "quieter", not both. Though, I've corrected your grammar, so according to TouHou mafia I must be scum >.>
You say you'd like to hear my thoughts? Why is that exactly? Does asking for my thoughts mean you don't have to provide your own?
My thought on Lady Door are a few minor slipups, but that doesn't convince me that she's scum. I don't buy into the whole 'bad play = scum or bad town so lynch both' thing. So nothing there from me yet.
-
The edit occurred after: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=363.msg7457#msg7457
-
I see, Andrew. That lessens my suspicion but doesn't eliminate it outright. And using one's vote to make people talk is what it's there for, until we have a certain target. In fact, I would have been even less suspicious had LD FoS'd/voted me after unvoting smodge, instead of just mentioning me without actual commitment for a case.
On Tom: Yes, he has been more silent than I'd expect, and yes, it's hilarious to hear smodge of all people (and myself, as I haven't been all that active so far -- just not at lurker level, that's what I dispute) call Tom silent. I would certainly hope it's just an evolution of his gaming style and not a scum tactic; that's how it looks to me, especially considering what Tom's old playing style got him in previous mafia games.
On smodge: Alex looks bad, QR looks impeccable, neither statement says anything as that's just how they usually look to me regardless of alignment (aside from Touhou; what were you thinking, QR?). I don't know if it should worry me that I'm agreeing with smodge on those two. And him casting his eyes on LD makes me frown since smodge is leaving scumtells/smodge always does it and is town... bah, I keep on weighing those two.
Whatever. I don't want this day to be just about smodge. Let's hear from LD, and if she can answer to my satisfaction.
-
(aside from Touhou; what were you thinking, QR?).
*sighs* Everyone has off games. That was mine. The post restriction was REALLY throwing me off and I'd never payed a cop before. It was a serious learning experience, believe me! :)
-----------------------------------------
In looking over the posts so far, more to dig through. This is ALWAYS good.
Seems that Lynch All Lurkers thing only ended with the loss of a townie (two, really, since it drove us right into night), so I'm going to let that one lie for the moment.
Sadly, this is often the case. But frankly taking the chance on losing a townie who doesn't care enough/have enough time to play the current game when it also might net a scum who's having trouble playing both sides of the fence is usually a good gambit. Sadly, every scum we've had has been far too wise to lurk so noticably as to get caught. But if we STOP going after LAL, we allow scum the option of falling back into the mindset that they can sit back and not participate without much repurcussion. So, we keep the warning there for them, even if it does seem to cost us way more townies than scum (*sad eyes*).
Now, for the arguments on LD, I'm...torn. I can see newbie who's not used to smaller games where each vote is so much more precious. I mean over in VtM 3 votes is just halfway to lynch. It's easy to get confused. BUT, when she does post, she tends to be very thoughtful and insightful...something I generally do NOT attribute to the common newbie. My read is neutral which is abhorant. I'll be paying close attention until that clears up for me.
I DO agree with Corwin's remarks that removing your vote was odd. With just our two votes, he was only halfway to hammer. If two people quick jumped on the train and hammered him, that's two people that would likely get impaled the next day for being scum. Especially since everyone was watching so closely. Unless you're no longer thinking that Smodge is scum, keeping your vote on the scummiest is ALWAYS preferable when you're only up to the halfway mark.
Not paying attention? Classic scumtell.
And newbietell. If we're going to brand something, let's at least brand it all it can be, hmm? It could be a scumtell. It could just be a new player inattentiveness. Not satying either is a good thing, of course, just saying...
-
Hokay. Smodge's random vote for Ciato being suspicious + Ciato dying after calling him out on that. I don't think this is really true. Ciato did OMGUS Smodge, after all, and then seemed to contemplate that he misspoke. So I don't think she was really pressuring him that day. And thus I don't think Smodge, were he scum, would kill her over that.
Frame? Eh, possible. Ciato is dead because scum hate Ciato anyway? More possible. I am hesitant to draw many (any) conclusions from this.
More likely reason for Smodge being scum? Ok, I can see how his random vote might be odd... only, well, the game was still kind of in the random day 1 stage. I've seen Smodge pull the whole 'Well, time to retract my random vote!' thing before (in Touhou, iirc). So... I think this is actually in-character for him.
Hate for constant references to SERIOUS MODE as distinct from JOKEVOTING MODE, I've ranted about this in the discussion thread, though.
<->
Another thing that caught my eye. We've got EvilTom going to Smodge that 'you're asking me for thoughts?! perhaps because you don't want to give your own!' right after Smodge made a fairly sizable post- and you haven't actually said too much today, either. I don't think Smodge is out of line there.
Still, I don't really think either he or Smodge qualify for the hated label of 'Lurker'. Frankly, I don't think we have any lurkers at this point, and I'll need to give some time before I consider using that word on someone again. (I mean, even I'm only posting just now.) More content from... uh.. EVERYONE!
<->
Addendum. Smodge, you mentioned that you think my opinions are usually accurate. Frankly, I see this as more an attempt to curry favour with me than anything else, given the games you've participated with me in. Now... of course I want people to look at my arguments and agree with me. But I like to think you're going to read the argument and actually understand it's value instead of just going 'yep, Rat's awesome'. (And I AM awesome. But still. You see what I'm getting at?)
-
Another big post when i finish eating, i knocked off work early today.
-
Why do you keep doing that? You could just... make the post. It seems like you might be trying to pad out your postcount a bit, or at least presence. I don't really see the point o.o
-
Hmmkay. To me this is shaping up to be Tsukihime 2, without the role insanity - in other words, the game's being obscured by inexperienced players (Smodge, Tom and Ladydoor) and folks what don't post (Strago).
I think Smodge looks bad because of his confusing stance on whether or not he wanted to leave a serious vote on someone day 1 and how. And, admittedly, Ciato's death is increasing my suspicions here. But that could[/b] be a scum frame and odd newbie town play. (Also, you think Rat's opinion is usually accurate? What? Rat is ALWAYS SCUM, he's been town in like one or two games, ever.)
I think Dread Thomas looks bad because of his antagonistic attitude and what I perceive as a lack of content in his posts. (Edit, see the one he just made!) But this could just be odd newbie town play.
I think LadyDoor looks bad because of her not committing to cases and her apparent confusion on the effects of her vote (how exactly do you not notice that you're putting someone at -1 to hammer?!). But as seen in Touhou, this could just be odd newbie town play.
And I have no real read, or slight townie read, on QR, Rat and Corwin, since they're arguing well compared to the other three. But their cases are all safe ones that could easily be made by scum, so my perception of them as townie is logically unfounded.
This irritates me and I have no real idea where to go. This is C9, there are two scum, odds are reasonably high that at least one of them is in fact in the less experienced players. I could make a case on all three of them for seeing their actions as a reasonable result of scum coordination, though. At the moment I'm keeping with Smodge, on the grounds of oddity with his saying "Rat is usually right" statement pushing him up a little further than the rest of the crowd on my list.
-
The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum, it is because I have nothing really to produce.
This irritates me and I have no real idea where to go.
Is what you said, and I basically agree. Rather than just doing a summary like you've done, I've chosen to only make points which are new or relevant. I was the first/only one to provide a defense to Lady Door, after being the first one to attack her over the Smodge thing. It's rather.. obscuring to say I've lacked content. I have lacked *volume*, but as far as content goes, I think I've made ample contributions.
Antagonistic? Things are boring around here and we have no leads; poking people is the only way to get information. Sniping at me for doing this after complaining about the lack of leads seems rather lame.
And I'd hardly call my play newbie :\ In fact, I'd say that was rather antagonistic of you; except your attack was ad hominem.
-
Apparently, I fail at tags.
Tom, I'm talking about your tone. Look at your latest post: "sniping," "complaining," before that a lot of biting sarcasm directed at Smodge and a one liner slamming LadyDoor. This is all quite inflammatory.
Your day 1 posts are more civil, but also more worrisome in terms of arguments, with you wanting someone to "pursue it further" when Strago was at -1 just for lurking, and contrasting that to your threat of moving to me to equalize trains earlier. You dismissed that as a tangent, and I've so far disregarded it as such, along with your one liners, but I'm beginning to think that may have been a mistake. The "I'm not scum" claim in your last post doesn't help either. On further thought, I think this pushes you up over others for me, so
##Unvote: Smodge
##Vote: Dread Thomas
I absolutely understand the troubles of trying to produce content in this game, and indeed much of what you have said today about Lady and Smodge is relevant, but as I said before, those are easy cases to make both ways, and the manner in which you have said things gives me pause.
-
While I agree with Alex re: Tom's relative lack of content and re: Tom's tone...
The "I'm not scum" claim in your last post doesn't help either.
Alex, please show me where he says it or states he's town in his last post. I looked at it and the one before it, and even glanced earlier at the one before that. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. I have more to say on this, but first, I'd like to see whether I'm missing something or not.
-
If we're going to split hairs...
The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum,
I believe this is what he's referring to. It's implied that he's saying "I am not scum!"
-
Huh. I parsed this sentence entirely differently, and "The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum, it is because I have nothing really to produce." doesn't really jump at me as "Hay I'm not scum guys" but as a "I have nothing to produce, being scum or not has nothing to do with that."
Well, in that case, I don't really want to pursue anything against Alex since he wasn't alone in reading Tom's post that way. I still disagree that it's the way Tom intended his post to be read, though, and would like Tom himself to weigh in here. "is not because I'm scum, but <second clause goes here>" is hardly an "I'm not scum" claim, so Alex does seem to be overstating his case. He often does that, though, so eh.
Also. Tom, there's nothing preventing you from looking for a case yourself. If it's too quiet, then people certainly won't be posting more if everyone shares your outlook. Part of the criticism I had for LD applies to you as well, so yeah.
-
"Rat is usually right" statement pushing him up a little further than the rest of the crowd on my list.
Addendum. Smodge, you mentioned that you think my opinions are usually accurate.
Usually Scum or Town Rat's posts usually contain few flaws, even when he's scum he makes valid arguments (sure their aimed at the wrong people usually) but still their usually valid, the comment was more of a "hey rat post something big" than anything else, usually in the other games when i say something along the lines he posts with a minor attack on me, but then has a fairly lengthy post.
However this is disturbing me slightly
At the moment I'm keeping with Smodge, on the grounds of oddity with his saying "Rat is usually right" statement pushing him up a little further than the rest of the crowd on my list.
This makes me look bad to you Alex
So, okay, serious time GET, I guess. Gutclaims are not good, as a rule, but I've learned the hard way as scum that Ciato's are right an astonishing amount of the time... when she's got a seed of reason backing them up.
But this isn't?
Ciato didn't have much reason except for the fact that a jokevote put her on 2, it was OMGus which you often tell us not to do, yet you then not only support it, but claim it as valid reasoning?
To me this is shaping up to be Tsukihime 2, without the role insanity - in other words, the game's being obscured by inexperienced players (Smodge, Tom and Ladydoor)
We won Tsukihime despite it all, comments like this only make me more tempted to vote for you, however you don't look the worst to me at the moment, so i'm holding my vote off you.
Actually on top of this.
Ciato's
Wow, two votes on me already. A most disturbing train, I must say.
Yet at the same time, Alex had 2 votes on him.
So if training Ciato makes me look bad and infact removing the vote from her because 1 it was a joke vote, and 2 i wouldn't be around to remove it later.
How come the 2nd vote on you from Rat doesn't make him look bad?
##Vote:Alex
Too many contradictions from you so thats where my vote goes for now.
Now others that i'm looking at.
Tom - Setting off major Alarm bells but not as many as Alex did on the reread.
Major lack of content from Tom, however this does fit in with a discussion we were having before this game started.
As Newbies from playing DL mafia both of us were discussing how we were more and more tempted to lurk, because even when we are town, no matter how hard we try to help out it tends to make things worse.
This is the reason and ONLY reason i am not taking Toms lurkage as a scumtell.
However this comment.
The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum
Really does bring back memories of Tsukihime.
Tom regardles off whether you have nothing to produce or not, look for it, if everyone took the same passive playstyle then scum would just float on by and never get caught.
Town need to make discussion, even if it IS discussion at who is not talking.
Seems to me like Tom's forgotten some of his early game lessons.
As for Pot/Kettle situation, if anyone wants me to give thoughts on anything in particular just ask i'm not trying to lurk or anything, just limited time and i am doing what i can to make that time count.
-
Corwin, it was intended exactly as you read it. The most obvious way to read it.
I'm not sure if Alex is trying to make me look bad on purpose here, or if he just really wants me to be scum and accidentally read it that way. In either case, he didn't quote me directly, he chose to paraphrase something into something it isn't.
It's this kind of misrepresentation that really annoys me. He made a valid point in his case about me, that I haven't produced a huge amount of points. But he also padded it out with a bunch of bogus ones; yes, I've been a bit snarky. Does that in any way point to me being scum? No. Show me a correlation between a player's perceived mood in text and alignment, and then I'll believe you. And prompted along by making it look like I claimed not to be scum. Why would I even say that, it doesn't serve me any good.
It also looked like that his post and vote may be there to provoke me. I'm not sure if this is typical aggresive Alex, or typical aggresive scum.
I'll continue to withhold my vote, but Alex is actually giving me something to be suspicious about now, which is nice in a way.
Ninja'd by Smodge, will post this before reading it 'cos laptop is slow and net keeps dropping out >.<
-
Anyway. Alex is describing this as Tsukihime 2.0 and commenting that things are being obscured by newbie players.
Thing is, the only *real* newbie player present is LadyDoor. What SHE'S done is lurk. I will totally be all over her if she keeps up with the lurkerering by the time I get up tomorrow (and it's closer to deadline.)
<->
I don't think Smodge is behaving terribly scummy. That is to say, I believe the scumminess of his early vote on day 1 has been severely overstated, and he has not been acting out of character at all. I really, really dislike his play (it's very reliant on others, as has been pointed out), but it's what he does. All the time. He needs to stop. I think being conscious of his own ineptitude could be seen as a good thing? Maybe?
<->
Every time I read what Dread Thomas says I want to vote for him more. I'm troubled that despite this, it's.. well, like Smodge, he usually seems to be inflammatory in his posts and always acts as if it's ridiculous that anyone could conceive of him as scum. In particular...
Talk about the kettle calling the pot black. I'm sure I've been more active than you.
By the way, it's "more quiet" or "quieter", not both. Though, I've corrected your grammar, so according to TouHou mafia I must be scum >.>
You say you'd like to hear my thoughts? Why is that exactly? Does asking for my thoughts mean you don't have to provide your own?
My thought on Lady Door are a few minor slipups, but that doesn't convince me that she's scum. I don't buy into the whole 'bad play = scum or bad town so lynch both' thing. So nothing there from me yet.
THIS POST seems just.. so snarky and pointlessly mean. He's also acting here like it's a great sin to question him.
<->
Ultimately, we're stuck. We've got to realise that both Smodge and EvilTom are no longer newbies, even if they continue to act like some. They shouldn't get away with this. And in most games, they don't. Like Alex has said, it's easy to make safe cases on them (as has been done) and doing so won't shake things up at all. So.
<->
*Nitori spins... 180.
<->
##Vote: QR
LET'S DO IT. QR! You posted, what, three times in day 1? One self-confessed jokevote on me, asking what a meme is, and defaulting to LAL! Day 2! You vote Smodge to get things started! Well, get this: I don't think Smodge is scum! I think Smodge is.. well.. Smodge! You are also keeping a CLOSE EYE on Lady Door for not being the typical newbie... well, I don't think she's playing any worse than I was the first few times around (I know I was scum shut up I don't mean it like that), so obviously, our expectations for average newbie play are probably lower than what's actually likely.
Does her being a newbie actually have any bearing on anything? At all? We should judge things on their merits. So far she's seemed competent enough to me with only lurkerness being relevant. Her extra vote seems more reckless than having some kind of malicious intent.
I keep reading her posts (well.. post) and I keep reading reiterations (a reiteration) of how standard play should be. Alex has come forward with the relatively bold statement that this game is similar to Tsukihime and that we're messed up between bad play (not calling them newbies anymore) and easy arguments.
I'd like her to explain her thoughts on Lady Door a bit more concisely and without prejudice for newbieness or not. As an experiment, if nothing else. I'd also like her to reconsider her vote for Smodge, given that I believe he is playing like he normally does, and that the WIFOM over Ciato's death is meaningless.
<->
NINJA'D THREE POSTS I DON'T CARE i'll read them momentarily.
-
Why do you keep doing that? You could just... make the post. It seems like you might be trying to pad out your postcount a bit, or at least presence. I don't really see the point o.o
Oh addressing stuff like this.
Only reason i say it is so noone turns around and says "Smodge has been on for 30 minutes without posting he must obviously be lurking" same reason i post my next posting time, if people know when to expect my next post, they are less inclined to accuse me of lurking when i'm doing RL stuff.
I can stop it if it really annoys people, its more just aknowledging that i'm here paying attention and will post soon, this way you guys know i'm not lurking.
-
Usually Scum or Town Rat's posts usually contain few flaws, even when he's scum he makes valid arguments
You, sir, are insane! Just.. insane! This attitude is stupid! It is far too trusting! RECONSIDER! If you want me to post, yell at me to post, and don't try and suck up to me!
HOWEVER, you have indeed caught an interesting point out of Alex, that is that he is willing to be trusting Ciato for being great even as he slams you for trusting me! (The fact that Ciato is, in fact, great and town like every game nonwithstanding. She's my polar opposite.) Well done! Alex, explain yourself!
Tsukihime was won due to you, as I recall, going "Well, I've thought this is a good idea. Let's do the opposite!" and it turned out to be right, i.e. not because you figured your role was double-edged or anything. Besides, whether Tsukihime was won or not is meaningless, we all know just *how* it was played, and that's what's important when you compare arguments in one game to another.
The vote for me on Alex does NOT look bad because there was a good and solid reason behind it, that being that ALEX SUCKS and thinks I am always scum. Your vote, however, was totally random and just happened to land on someone who already had a vote. I don't actually think this is bad.
-
As for Pot/Kettle situation, if anyone wants me to give thoughts on anything in particular just ask i'm not trying to lurk or anything, just limited time and i am doing what i can to make that time count.
Just because you've got a valid reason (limited time) for lurking, doesn't mean you aren't scum. I'm not saying you are scum, but I'm just saying that we're not going to give you a free pass. Well, I'm certainly not.
<-->
Well now. It seems that everybody enjoys taking my quote out of context. I wasn't going to bother talking about it at first (because it seemed like a waste of time), but it's becoming an issue that needs to be resolved, and quickly.
First of all, it is not:The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum
It is also not:The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum,
And it is definately not: "I'm not scum"
It is:
The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum, it is because I have nothing really to produce.
I'm sorry to waste time over this, but I'm getting sick of people making it look like I've said things I haven't. The way I said it was not direct, but that's simply how I write.
See, I did it again. I could have said "I don't write directly" or "I write indirectly". But I don't. And I'm not going to change the way I write just because people like to misquote and misrepresent me. So please, in the future, get it right.
-
Oh, please.
Smodge hasn't been lurking. This is basically true. I can point to clear and specific examples of where he has made posts, and I know his work-related excuses are valid. Give it up. Stop making these lame dire threats of "WELL YOU WON'T GET A FREE PASS, GOODSIR!"
I am not taking your quote out of context! Also, you bitch about this way too much! You said something that is basically reminding us all that you're not scum. You are also ignoring the whole concept of implied statements, like...
"Haha, EvilTom plays like a newbie." (Try to guess what I'm implying.)
I could have put this nicely! I'm NOT because I think your defence was WEAK. If your quote was indeed taken out of context, then you need to WATCH YOUR WORDS more carefully and CONSIDER how others may read them. Yes, that means YOU must adjust YOUR playing style. Not that EVERYONE ELSE must THINK DIFFERENT to accomdately YOU playing BADLY.
-
Regarding Tom's "I'm not scum" statement, see what Rat bolded. No, obviously he's not jumping on a rock and shouting "Hey guys I'm not scum!", it's just dropped in there. But he did still drop it into his language, and that's a psychological tipoff.
In a lot of games now, I've been getting attacked for paraphrasing people and not directly quoting them. Perhaps we should hash this out: paraphrase is good. The quote is right there for anyone to look at. It's obvious which post and what statement I'm talking about. Paraphrasing it into what it means to me helps clarify what I see in it. This gives town information on my thought processes, and helps others see what I'm talking about if they didn't see it themselves, like Cor here. Paraphrase is a *good* thing and people need to do it more.
If you want to claim it's misrepresentation, that's your call to make, but have a reason for making it. The author of a statement doesn't get to go back and say "Oh I MEANT it THIS way, so that's what it means and if you dare to draw any other connotation from it, that's scummy misrepresentation!" That's completely absurd.
In this specific case, Tom's language included an implication of his alignment, which strikes me as a possible psychological scumtell because I believe that scum are more likely than town to subtly include language like that in their posts.
As for what Smodge is poking me on - yes, I do indeed find "Rat is usually right" less valid than "Ciato is usually right." If you look at the game history I'm referring to, Rat's been scum a majority of the games he's played in, while I have personally played games against Ciato as scum where she seemed to be almost psychic in picking out the scumteam, and I've seen her repeat this as a mod/observer in other games. Rat's historical arguments often read logically, but since they are from scum-Rat, if anything this says that his apparently logical judgments should NOT be trusted. The timing of the claims is also different. My statement came as a start to serious day 1 discussion, where a Ciatogut is about as good as anything else to get things going. Your statement is on day 2, when there's a case getting pressed on you, and could easily be read as an attempt to curry favor with Rat to save your skin.
You're right that I haven't pursued the two votes on me. Both were clearly jokevotes, and Rat had a valid reason (my jesting provocation) for putting the second on me. Yours seemed odder than his.
Also, both of the above points are based on what I picked to kickstart discussion on day 1, which is always pretty arbitrary.
Back to Tom, excessive snarkyness is bad, because it makes people shy away from attacking you for fear of you striking back and turning it into an OMGUSfest. It's a layer of armor for yourself with a psychological rather than logical basis, which is the sort of thing scum tend to do to protect themselves. Claiming that my vote on you is meant to provoke you shows this same mentality, "How dare you vote for me, that's a provocation and I'll vote you back!" Snarkyness is also bad play in general for how it sours people's moods, this is a game of lying and treachery, but that doesn't mean you have to be uncivil about it.
I somewhat agree with Rat on wanting to see more from QR, she does seem to have the least content - though she does have a legitimate schedule excuse for not being around at the same times as the Aussie-Cor-Alex crew which is surely influencing this perception.
-
Ok, just to appease the Smodge:
Carthrat - Cold hard logic. It's been handy here and there, and the reasoning is good for town. If he's town, yay. If he's not, then it will show eventually (because he's being so handy).
Smodge - I know he's been absent a lot; personally I make nothing exciting of his jokevotes (I detest the whole concept of joke votes, but what I hate more is when people take them seriously later on). That is to say, I don't even consider them. So far he seems to be helping everyone along; I'd be concerned if people gave him a free pass because of his excuse, but I have nothing to complain about so far.
QR - Is someone I respect for leet haxxor skills in mafia, but hasn't really done it here. I'd like to see more.
Ciato - See QR. But exams > mafia. See Smodge re: free pass.
Lady Door - I'm not giving a free pass for newby, but, like I already said earlier: I didn't think she made any aggregious errors... just small mistakes that are easy for anyone to make. I proded her early saying something like (classic scumtell), but that was just to provoke explanations out of her, which we received. I was reasonably satisfied by them.
Alex - I already posted about this, like, 5 minutes ago. I don't like it.
Corwin - Well, he pointed out that Alex was misrepresenting me by not quoting, which earns him points in my book. Then again, if I were scum, I'd probably defend EvilTom too, incase he OMGUSed me or something. Not really sure at this point, but I'm not feeling any scum.
Me - I'm in a moderately bad mood. I just got killed by Dark Ifrit. Again. I'm sorry for being snarky; snarky people are not nice, but they're not automatically scum. And just by saying something like that, does NOT mean I'm saying "I'm not scum".
Have I been lurking? Maybe slightly. But, I haven't felt I had anything much substantial to post. But to avoid that..
I posted all this crap. I don't feel it actually helped anything, but hopefully now that I've posted some 'content' (a bit of sarcasm there, 'cos I don't really consider random summaries to be content, and I'd be wary of anyone giving out free passes in exchange for blurbs) maybe people will stop calling me a lurker. Let's see how many times I got Ninja'd... only one.
Right, Carthrat wants me to explain the whole thing further.
About the 'I'm not scum' crap. He basically wants us all to waste more time on this. Fantastic.
Example Statement: "The reason I am not using Times New Roman is not because I am scum, it is because I don't like that font."
Now, the point I am trying to make here, is that it is a fallacy to assume that people who don't use Times New Roman are scum. Do you understand where I'm going with this?
"He's not using the font, he must be scum!" is wrong.
"He's not posting content, he must be scum!" is also wrong. This is what I was alluding to.
I was not saying "I'm not scum". I was saying that it is incorrect logic to assume that I am scum just because I haven't posted new content, especially when Alex admitted to doing the same in basically the same post.
The reality is that everyone is jumping over this small wording issue, as usual, because nobody has anything to go off. If you really think that I'm scum because I worded something in a certain way... well... I've got news for you.
you're not scum
Thanks! See what happens when you take people out of context when quoting them? Gee, I guess you should have been more careful with your wording, you suck at this game.
-
Tom's example there perfectly illustrates what I'm saying, by the by. The general statement "X, not because I am scum, but because..." is language more likely to be used by scum than by town. This is the entire reason why alignment claims are scummy, scum tend to do them to reinforce people's psychological perception of them as town.
-
The general statement "X, not because I am scum, but because..." is language more likely to be used by scum than by town.
Why? Do you have any proof of that? Or are we supposed to just believe you?
-
What I mean to say by that, is that I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.
I've phrased wording like that in.. a bunch of other mafia games on DL, and I've been town in all of them. I'm saying that your theory doesn't work.
-
Whoo, caught up. Tom, I think I'm with Rat in that it's not everyone else that needs to change, but you. Using arguments along the lines of 'I've done this and was town several times, clearly this isn't a scumtell' is incorrect, because you're using your private case to generalize things, while Alex (and Rat&smodge, to a point) are seeing you as the exception to the rule rather than proof of it. Basically, in past games, you've been town despite looking scummy, so using that scummy-seeming behavior to support your case is a tad shaky, to say the least.
Discussion is interesting, at last. I'll still sit on LD with my vote to remind her she needs to respond to my concerns (and I'm decidedly not making a stern face at her not posting back at what's probably 4am for her or whatever, but it takes a lot of willpower).
-
Corwin, let's say you're not voting for LD. She's *not around right now*. Other people are. Who else would you be voting for?
Tom, you pointed out that I made the same kind of tell as you. What does this tell you about me? I'm interested in what you, and not what anyone else thinks about this (nothing stopping you posting but I'm not hunting for your responses.)
-
At this point I won't be voting for anyone, then, Rat. I don't like several facets of Tom and Alex (for different reasons), but they act that way a lot as town (exclusively so, in fact, for the Tom I've seen so far). One thing odd about Tom (besides the usual) is that he's doing his summary that he thinks isn't helping anyone, openly stating as much... and he lists Ciato there. You know, poor, confirmed townie due to flip at death Ciato. Why exactly is he posting thoughts on her at this stage? Weird, weird, weird. Smodge's... everything language skills-related is calling to the homicidal, culling side of me, but I violently suppress those deep urges.
Had QR been here I would vote for her to bring her halfway to hammer and thus make her realize that she needs to weigh in more. However, I have no reason to suspect she is indeed here at this time, so that can wait. Especially if LD responds in a way that sits well with me, thus freeing up my vote on her.
I don't think I would be voting for you now. This is not an attempt to suck up to you; you know full well how I believe that we think alike on many subjects. By examining your arguments in that light, I get to judge your townness by how much they deviate from what I would myself consider reasonable. In any case, I lack enough data on you thus far to suspect you, and if you ARE town then I would be losing someone who thinks like I do to a mislynch. I'm quite willing to ignore Alex's 'Rat is always scum' for now.
-
The general statement "X, not because I am scum, but because..." is language more likely to be used by scum than by town.
Why? Do you have any proof of that? Or are we supposed to just believe you?
Tom's example there perfectly illustrates what I'm saying, by the by. The general statement "X, not because I am scum, but because..." is language more likely to be used by scum than by town. This is the entire reason why alignment claims are scummy, scum tend to do them to reinforce people's psychological perception of them as town.
It's about on the same level as "lurking is scummy." What do you want me to do, pull out statistics? o_O
-
.....
Right. Ciato is dead. I knew that.
I'm obviously in no mental state to be playing mafia at the current hour, and there is the proof. Yes, I guess Ciato has a valid reason for lurking, being dead and all >.>"
I think I'll call it a night. Sorry for being generally useless (which is why I was avoinding posting unless I had something solid to say >.>)
-
He DID mention Ciato, and not in a way that indicates he was conscious of the fact that she was dead. His response didn't reply to my question. I've made this particular mistake as scum (I feel that really dumb mistakes like this are VERY scummy, having done it... so many times myself. Seriously, Touhou mafia, final day, what.)
So. I wanted to shove discussion in a new direction after Alex's post pointed out things were stalling, thus my sudden burst of hyperaggression. Tom has, however, one-upped me AGAIN and I feel compelled to vote for him once more. Still want him to reply to my earlier question (there is a point to it!)
##Unvote, ##Vote: Dread Thomas.
This doesn't in any way make me not want QR to respond to me, but at this point there's no reason to leave a vote there.
-
##Vote: QR
LET'S DO IT. QR! You posted, what, three times in day 1? One self-confessed jokevote on me, asking what a meme is, and defaulting to LAL! Day 2! You vote Smodge to get things started! Well, get this: I don't think Smodge is scum! I think Smodge is.. well.. Smodge! You are also keeping a CLOSE EYE on Lady Door for not being the typical newbie... well, I don't think she's playing any worse than I was the first few times around (I know I was scum shut up I don't mean it like that), so obviously, our expectations for average newbie play are probably lower than what's actually likely.
I was sleeping, Carth. *grin* I know, such folly.
Anyway, so much more to sift through. *joy*
Smodge has stepped up and given me a lot to read. After his responses to our concerns, if he's scum, he's doing a darn good job of hiding it from me. I think for now, I feel he's closer to town than the latter. As such. ##Unvote Smodge.
--------------------------
Now, for the snark fest around Tom and Carth. Tom, there is a reason that Alex listed you, Smodge and LD as newbies. LD is obvious and so I think I'll leave her out of this example. But you and Smodge, although you have played in a lot of games, have the tendancy to make the same repeated mistakes early games that tend to get you either killed off or obfuscating an issue to the point someone else, usually someone innocent, gets lynched. What Carth points out (snarkiness aside), is that if you look at the people who play this game the best, they consider their words carefully. They usually re-read their posts more than a couple times to make sure that what they say is phrased in a way that helps everyone understand their viewpoint. Now, you and Smodge have mucho enthusiasm for the game. No one would deny this. But the reason you're still called 'the newbies' at this point is that the same mistakes keep taking you down. You're not 'the newbie' when you make whole NEW mistakes that take you down (see me in Touhou *facepalm*).
What I mean to say by that, is that I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.
I've phrased wording like that in.. a bunch of other mafia games on DL, and I've been town in all of them. I'm saying that your theory doesn't work.
I believe I said something similar to the following in Touhou. It still applies. Just because everyone plays differently than you do, does not mean they're playing the game wrong. If everyone plays a game one way and you play it differently...*waits for the mental leap*...yes, you're not playing the game right. Mafia is a social game where discussion is analyzed and dissected and observed within an inch of its life. Why? Because it's ALL we have. If you think my logic is usually pretty spot on, you have NO IDEA how scary I am at reading people in RL. Body language tells you SO MUCH. But we don't have that. I can't watch the way you do or do not keep eye contact with me. I can't judge by if look uncomfortable when you say something or you fidget nervously. Without those physical clues, all we have to go on are the words. So your phrasing is MOST important. Your ability to convey a meaning is most important. You have a lot of good insight that just...gets lost in what you say versus what you actually meant. Unfortunately, we're not mind readers. This game would go so much faster if we were. *grin*
So, we pick apart how you speak. Not because we want you to fail, but because we want you to learn so that in your next game you do not make the same mistakes and then are a player that can hold your own with the experienced players well enough that you're not 'the newbie' any longer.
<End QR Ranting as if she were a teacher or something...need to stop posting less than 5 minutes out of bed...I get preachy>
--------------------------
NOWWWWWW, that aside, issues of the day.
Huh. I parsed this sentence entirely differently, and "The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum, it is because I have nothing really to produce." doesn't really jump at me as "Hay I'm not scum guys" but as a "I have nothing to produce, being scum or not has nothing to do with that."
I actually agree with Corwin's post above. That's actually how I read it too.
Smodge made a good point about Alex' inconsistant logic in his reply #86. In Alex' reply, though, I find his argument on why it was not illogical a valid one. Trusting someone's gut who is usually spot on in finding scum after they're proven to be town is not a bad idea. It's a bad idea if that is your ONLY basis for voting, but not if it's just one factor. Since right now that's my only basis, see the above withdrawn vote.
Now, we have 2 votes on Tom. I'd say he was my top contender at the moment, but I won't be placing a near hammer vote there just yet. I'd like LD to weigh in a bit first.
Now, it's 5 minutes after I was supposed to be at work so I could do this post and it takes me about 20 to get there so...leaving now. I will have time to post my usual 'List of What I Think of Everyone' post after I get in and make some excuse or another to my manager about car problems *grin*)
-
Well good morning then.
I realize Corwin is still sitting with his vote on me (a la http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=363.msg7504#msg7504 ), so I'll start there.
I was unfamiliar with FoS and, now that I know of it, uncomfortable with it. I don't see the point in sticking a particular tag on a phrase (in this case, I indicated that I was worried about not having seen you, and was waiting to hear from you and smodge) just so people can justify the need to defend themselves, but I'll consider it for the future.
My fourth paragraph was a case of poor argument structure. It was intended to acknowledge pieces I thought looked sound in favor of smodge but to wrap up that I still felt smodge deserved the vote I was about to place (really, really mistakenly placing him at -1). Hence the "I don't agree with the jokevote, but smodge got all defensive about it and figured it could spell his doom" sentence.
And... I don't see how that nullifies the previous paragraph, in which I outline why I personally find his actions scummy and vote-worthy.
Eh, and you're saying there are no other people to look at? In the same post you're saying you disagree with Alex's reasons for voting smodge day 1? Yeah, it may be an even flimsier reason to vote a person, but that doesn't preclude you from looking at him. So why aren't you? Because you honestly think smodge is scum, or because you're going for the easy target?
... wait, what? In order to decide I don't like Alex's vote, don't I have to look at who he voted for? That's kind of cause and effect. I can't draw a conclusion without examining the evidence. Maybe I'm missing the antecedent here. What do you mean "Why aren't you?" Why aren't I what?
Andrew cleared up that business about the last line in the flip post, and yet again the only apology I can offer is that I honestly didn't think about it. I tend to be direct when I feel a certain way about something, and I felt smodge = scum and the way to really indicate that is with a vote (or FoS). You know, as you so kindly pointed out I should have placed on you to confirm that there was something about my motioning to you.
What do you mean by "I don't buy her response to Tom"?
*facepalms*
Apparently another newbie error in ##unvoting. I thought about it (the one-liner post was to acknowledge I was in error before I had to run out to a RL obligation so that I might have time to explain it once I got back). Later that evening, I decided that it was my mistake, and that I should reclaim my vote for the time being. Why? Because it wasn't based on very much, just my strong feelings around limited evidence, and I'd feel bad if for some reason we lynched someone who turned out to be a townie because there wasn't much time to discuss things.
I admitted my vote was based on very little, meant to indicate that it was a vote to get started but failed miserably at that when I quickly escalated the thing into a -1 to lynch train. I voted for smodge because he looked the scummiest out of a limited pool of candidates. Said vote brought him to "this is serious business" time waaaaay too early. I will apologize again for that since it seems to be coloring everyone's reaction to me so vividly.
My "hurriedly looking for another target" was nothing of the sort. Did I indicate someone new? Did I outline another argument for why I should vote for someone else? All I did was reiterate that what I cited as a problem in my previous post -- namely, that I hadn't seen anything from you in a number of hours -- hadn't resolved since then. A bit over 3 hours elapsed between my vote and my unvote. Since I hadn't heard from you since noon the day before, and noon the day after would put us at -4 to deadline, I thought it was significant.
I know you're in another timezone a world away, I just don't know which one. "At this point" was meant to indicate that because I hadn't heard from you since noon previous, and because the days are 24 hours long, the time when you might possibly return to speak was close to the deadline.
I didn't vote for you because what I had against smodge was a lot more than what I had against you. Simple as that.
---
That's it for my defense for now. Unfortunately that ate up my morning time (and homework time >_< ) and so I'll have to try and drag some usefulness out of class in order to comment on the new developments, since I'm in it from now until 3:30pm (yes, that's until half an hour before deadline). I'll return as soon as I can.
-
Okay. QR and LD posted!
LD: Looking at him in that context meant going over Alex's posts and interaction, beyond the example you're citing. From your words, you disagreed with his reasoning there, correct? That's as good a reason as any, early on into the game, to take a deeper look at a person beyond the immediate issue, and either clear them of suspicion for yourself (for the time being, at least) or lay out a case for him and watch/examine his defense. And the context of that question was you saying you essentially had nothing to look at besides smodge. There weren't better cases, I'll agree. But no cases whatsoever?
Your response to Tom just felt off, it's something in the tone. It seems to imply that you've made a mistake, and no one may question that it was actually a slip. Nope, nothing like that, just a mistake. And then you're relying on newbie defense/not thinking things through/forgetting/whatever in a game where this is pretty much key. The combination of those two factors didn't sit well with me, and still doesn't.
I didn't say you were looking for a new target in the sense of a target you haven't named before. I meant new in the sense of someone you haven't voted for before. Namely, myself. And that you did this but hadn't actually committed to a vote just makes you look bad in my eyes. Then again, I just might be biased, so that's nowhere near the main reason I voted for you.
Not knowing where exactly I am... sure, I'll bite, though it's easily verifiable. The bigger problem I had here, really, was that you said:
He hasn't posted since noon yesterday and I know he's been posting to VtM, soooo. Yeah.
My emphasis. You seemed to ignore me saying in my post to you, the one you're replying to, that at the time I was posting to VtM, WoW was closed for the night phase. If you think I'm lying, provide concisive proof (posts can be linked to and have time tags, it's very easy!). If not, please account for the reasoning you used by alluding to my lurkerness despite knowing that comparing the two games in this way was apples and oranges. I can't quite get over people accusing me of lurking for reasons quite clearly beyond my control (over a busy day at work, sure; over something easily-checked like this case, no).
I'm tentatively leaving my vote on you until this particular concern is addressed by you, instead of being brushed off. I can't tell whether you decided it unimportant, or avoided it on purpose because you knew it was a slip you couldn't easily explain away.
QR: ... actually, QR's post mainly agrees with me either implicitely or explicitely. I obviously don't intend to argue with myself, so yeah. I can't really find a fault in the logic used, and my mind hadn't changed since. It does disturb me a bit, quite naturally, but... nah, not enough for a vote. But keep on talking! Please comment on the LD case/LD's defense, in particular. I know I can be easily provoked when people attack me for lurking while sleeping (it's happened so many times already, in so many games) that I'm always interested in how other people perceive any arguments I make that are related to this issue somehow. And this isn't a QR-only party; I invite everyone to comment here.
-
Hmm. Now that I'm in (and said manager says nothing about being a half hour late yay!), I can get down to my thoughts on people. And laying out a vote. Because sitting on one when I'm going to be here to see responses enough to remove if necessary (ie: proven wrong), is silly.
Tom - Day 1 was...a whole lotta nothing as per most everyone else. He did converse a bit, though, and explained his thoughts and rationale for leaving his vote on Strago.
Day 2:
D: Nooooo, our doc!
I'm more inclined to believe frame. Sure, it's WIFOM, but it just seems more likely to me. Given that it's Smodge. I reckon scum aimed for the frame, and got lucky with doc.. blah. No vote yet.
Honestly, I think it far more likely scum all screamed 'Kill Her Now Before She Finds Us!' and got 3 bird with one stone (while only aiming at 2 no less). No Ciato to gutfind them, no doc to help us and a nice WIFOM in front of Smodge. Scum are getting way too lucky this game. It bothers the heck out of me.
Not paying attention? Classic scumtell.
Do you know how hard I laughed at reading that? If there were EVER a time for pot/kettle that was it. :)
And I find it a bit suspicious that after the Touhou debacle (and in an earlier post you actually brough up that you were trying to change your playstyle a bit from things you learned there) that you'd go and do a grammar check on Smodge. (NOTE: This is not an invitation to start the grammar topic up again. Just commenting that it was disturbing considering his previous comment) I know people who see spelling or grammar errors and literally MUST respond. I don't fault people for things like that. But a quick PM to someone instead of including it in a post both lets you advise on the correct way to say/spell something as well as does not start GrammarWars the likes of which were seen in Touhou. So far, you're reading far closer to the scum side of things than townie, but you're nowherenear my biggest contender for this. Bronze medal at worst.
Smodge: Honestly, you're doing better. This game I haven't seen anything that was more than just a little twitchifying. Now, this tells me one of two things. Either one, you're learning and this is a good thing. Or two, you're scum and your partner is helping. This is not a good thing. So, for your sake, I'm going to assume that you've either gotten someone to mentor you as per your suggestion in the general board or that you're just plain getting better. Because if it's the latter, then you've just set yourself up for hurt in future games when you go back to your old ways.
Carth - You know, you and the water mammal have the same quality when it comes to these games in my eyes. You both scare the (censored) out of me whether I'm town or scum. I end up re-reading everything I type regarding you two about a good dozen times to see where the obvious flaw is in my post because I *know* that as soon as I post you're snagging it, running with it, and I will nearly get myself killed for not noticing. You're both very rabid players. Not saying it's exactly bad, but it does make me leery of targeting either of you...which is why I continue to force myself to do it. Because if I don't and you're scum, then I'll kick myself. But, you both scare me. You slightly less which is why I can actually call you by your name. My first mafia game was very nearly my last due to the water mammal's...tenacious grasp on my early messups as a townie. But, that aside, I digress...sorry, got lost in a tangent.
Day 1: As usual, Carth leads the fray in trying to start up a train so we actually get to talking in the Day 1 vacuum. Arguments for why gutclaims alone suck. Says he'd vote for Strago but hold off to prevent an early hammer to give him time to respond. Waits until enar time limit and then hammers. Nothing odd there. Day 2: Starts by misunderstanding Tom then figuring out what he was talking out. AND leads the 'if you hammer this sudden 3 votes, you're so dead' argument (which for the reference, I would fully enforce). Says he's not finding much on the case for Smodge to be scum. I rather agree with his points on this. And...*gasp* Votes me. For reasons I won't even touch (sleep =/= lurk). I was asleep which he pretty much said after a little while that he realized was the case. All in all, he's been very strong on trying to get people to talk. His comments have been relevant and as usual insightful. So, also as usual, I'm not finding much of anythin scummy about him and feel he's pretty townish. This proves nothing to me. Meme or not, history speaks for itself. But, I will not vote someone based on GOOD playing just because Hatbot hates them. As always, I'll be watching Carth closely.
Lady Door - Starts her day 1 with a vote on Strago for lurking. And rightfully so. Day 1 was...otherwise pretty contentless. Nothing big there. Not overly much to talk about and she kept her vote on a good target. Now, Day 2: The infmous vote. Now, I may regret this, but I will chalk that up to just what she said. Newness at watching vote counts in small games compared to VtM where she was also highly active and 3 votes were small change. Later removes the Smodge vote, but I've already touched on my thoughts about that. And her 1 post of content after that is filled with her reasoning behind the smodge vote. What I'd like from you is your thoughts on others please.
Alex - Up until he moves his vote from Smodge to Tom, everything look typical Alex. His line of reasoning is pretty straightforward (at least what he says is his reasoning *grin* He's just as good at bullogic as he is the real variety). And here is where it gets a little odd for me. He touches Tom's hot spot intentionally. Not saying it shouldn't be touched (and when I say hot spot, I am referring those things that Tom does that made my rantypost in my previous post appear), just that he moved from the realm of logic to the realm of pushing buttons that always seem to start the confusion cloud in these games. He does touch it was calm rational purpose and clear statement of intent, though, so I don't really see anything off about the push itself, just that it's a noticeable move to something that will always cause flares of temper from Tom. I'm getting not much of a read on Alex at all. Insert minirant here.
Corwin - Hmm. Looking over day 1 was rather interesting. He dropped a jokevote on my in his first post and then...did nada. No move to a serious vote. No comments on the Strago issue...or any issue for that matter. The only post of content the first day was saying that maybe a vote count would push people (himself include) into commenting. And then nothing. Now Day 2, on the other hand, is another story. There's a lot to say...and some of it I find more ringing bells than just commenting idly.
Specifically, LD. You led the charge here on this one right off the bat at the start of Day 2 and you've been steadily corralling the subject back to her each time it veers off onto Tom, Smodge or otherwise. To start with first posts first:
You're saying Strago and I lurked. Except my 'lurking' took place after I participated (admittedly, in day 1 posting) and then went to bed.
I wouldn't really call your Day 1 posts participating. I would call them very solidly 'Hi! I'm not lurking!' in nature. You did not comment on a single issue. So, I would second LD's assertion that you lurked Day 1. I wouldn't say you were lurking today, mind you. But Day 1, yeah.
Now, the constant corraling back to LD I can see two ways. Looking at you for town, it's a very good idea to get people to stop waffling and pick a flipping target. Vote them, debate them, convince others, lynch them and move on. So, as a townie move, I can see the logic. But I would see it more if you also debated the other points people who are (in theory) doing the same thing you're doing are bringing up on others. But you seem very convinced that we need to look at LD, see how your arguments are compelling and lynch her. We'll deal with the rest later sort of mentality. This seems more of the scum reasoning for killing off a newbie. Why? Because it's easier to do than going after the experienced players who will be far more likely to catch you at it.
##Vote Corwin for more explainations. (to clarify, not your thoughts on LD, your thoughts on others)
-------------------
OK, started writing this when I got into work at 9:30. It's now nearly 3 hours later. I have actually done no work yet so no response from me until very much later this afternoon. But still before deadline.
-
Goddess bless that was a post and a half. Apologies for the Wall of Words, 15th lvl caster folks.
-
Smodge13 (1): Alex, QR, LadyDoor
EvilTom (2): Carth, Alex, Carth
Carthrat (0)
Corwin (1): QR
QR (0): Carth
Alex (1): Smodge
Lady Door (1): Corwin
Day will currently be ending in two hours. As it stands, Tom will be lynched at the end of the day.
-
*squints* That last post worries me.
Honestly, I think it far more likely scum all screamed 'Kill Her Now Before She Finds Us!' and got 3 bird with one stone (while only aiming at 2 no less). No Ciato to gutfind them, no doc to help us and a nice WIFOM in front of Smodge. Scum are getting way too lucky this game. It bothers the heck out of me.
This paragraph bothers the heck out of me. Scum have had only one kill. Describing it in this fashion sounds like scumgloating (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Finding_Mafia). Minor, just noting it.
Smodge: Honestly, you're doing better. This game I haven't seen anything that was more than just a little twitchifying. Now, this tells me one of two things. Either one, you're learning and this is a good thing. Or two, you're scum and your partner is helping. This is not a good thing. So, for your sake, I'm going to assume that you've either gotten someone to mentor you as per your suggestion in the general board or that you're just plain getting better. Because if it's the latter, then you've just set yourself up for hurt in future games when you go back to your old ways.
Wh... at point are you trying to make here? It comes off to me as vaguely threatening Smodge for playing well and dropping the suggestion that he might be scum because this is out of character for him. Insert obligatory counterargument about how I'm ignoring the last sentence, which covers the above effects with a weak "Well good keep playing well in future games, I guess, OR DIE." Smodge A. has indeed been learning if you look at the last few games he's been in and B. still isn't playing all that well in this one, see the reasons for the trains on him here. I don't see why you'd write this paragraph.
Alex - Up until he moves his vote from Smodge to Tom, everything look typical Alex. His line of reasoning is pretty straightforward (at least what he says is his reasoning *grin* He's just as good at bullogic as he is the real variety). And here is where it gets a little odd for me. He touches Tom's hot spot intentionally. Not saying it shouldn't be touched (and when I say hot spot, I am referring those things that Tom does that made my rantypost in my previous post appear), just that he moved from the realm of logic to the realm of pushing buttons that always seem to start the confusion cloud in these games. He does touch it was calm rational purpose and clear statement of intent, though, so I don't really see anything off about the push itself, just that it's a noticeable move to something that will always cause flares of temper from Tom. I'm getting not much of a read on Alex at all. Insert minirant here.
So wait. Voting Tom for calm, rational purposes and clear statements of intent is now a point of suspicion, because it makes Tom flare up? Uh, no. No, no, and no. This is exactly the reason why Tom needs to change his playstyle and the reason why his snarkiness is harmful. Right here, he's got QR of all people buying into "don't dare attack Tom because he'll bite back and anyone who does is scummy."
Of course, that in and of itself is worrisome, since it's not something I'd expect QR to bite on at all. Especially after posting her own minirant on the topic. Between this and all of the previously mentioned points on QR and Tom individually I'm now thinking it's quite probable that at least one of the two is scum.
-
Ok time to get a few things out of the way.
1. If Tom wants to correct my grammar guys, just let him, i know my grammar sucks and its not going to inflame anything.
2. Tom calm down, corrections is 1 thing, your recent posts are really uncivil.
The general statement "X, not because I am scum, but because..." is language more likely to be used by scum than by town.
Why? Do you have any proof of that? Or are we supposed to just believe you?
Your still confused by stuff like this?, i'll bring you back to thinking of our uni games when i was scum in that, remember how i would repeatedly use the word US, WE, OUR (i do in my general vocabulary anyway me = us, you = we just a random smodgefact) i would use things like that to form a community sort of feel, i would also often say things like "well i know i'm town so i'll be voting for X".
we were all new in those, and naturally small psychological tactics like that worked magnificently, arguments weren't analyzed in those games it was purely paranoia and looking for who seems to be the odd one out.
DL as i said a while back are on a whole different level, think of it in steps.
Step 1, Scum use psychological attacks
Step 2, Town spots psychological attacks
Step 3, Scum stop using them and go for lurking/arguments
You as a chess player should understand thinking multiple steps ahead is important, essentially this is whats happens in DL mafia only on a much grander scale, instead it is ASSUMED everyone is thinking a the same level and that certian things have become almost law.
Now that that attempt to educate is over (if i have a messed up viewpoint feel free to explain it this is honestly how i think the game mechanics work and if its way off it will help me get back on track).
Thoughts on people:
Once again if this cuts off mid post its because i left for work.
I don't think Smodge is behaving terribly scummy. That is to say, I believe the scumminess of his early vote on day 1 has been severely overstated, and he has not been acting out of character at all. I really, really dislike his play (it's very reliant on others, as has been pointed out), but it's what he does. All the time. He needs to stop. I think being conscious of his own ineptitude could be seen as a good thing? Maybe?
Tsukihime was won due to you, as I recall, going "Well, I've thought this is a good idea. Let's do the opposite!" and it turned out to be right, i.e. not because you figured your role was double-edged or anything.
It's often the way i think when using powers and it does seem to work unneringly well.
However imagine if i tried using it as a reason to vote for someone, in serious mode if i did that i wouldn't live 5 minutes without being lynched.
Running low on time with 5 minutes to spare.
Tom to me is just being Tom, although its the Tom as he was a few games ago.
Then again as Alex points out i'm not playing as good as i have been improving (thanks nice to know i'm changing) so it's possibly just an off-game.
QR - Alex brings up some very good points about her, however she seems to be acting in her usual vote to put pressure on someone then remove it, i'm getting a slightly less town read off her.
Alex - I will always disagree with your gamestyle i think, Touhou you seemed less rational to me however your logic does make sense (annoyingly so seeing as i still have the gut feeling your scum, but i shouldn't let it drive me).
##Unvote:Alex
Corwin - thoughts on people would be usefu, it seems your doing a similar thing as to what Tom was, commenting on things but not actively getitng involved much (admittedly your doing it more than LD and tom but still not as much as i'd expect)
Rat - seems his usual rat self, i can never read him so i'll leave it at that.
Lady Door - her "slip-ups" seem newbish to me and don't seem to hide an ulterior motive.
Now who to vote with the final hours approaching.
Alex/QR look the worst to me - what disturbs me is Alex brought up some good points about her, and QR about him, Alex's brings up the best point, just because Tom blows up when you vote for him, doesn't mean you shouldn't vote for him.
##Vote: QR
then you've just set yourself up for hurt in future games when you go back to your old ways.
Huh what?, so i should continue to play badly and not try to improve?
*squints* That last post worries me.
Honestly, I think it far more likely scum all screamed 'Kill Her Now Before She Finds Us!' and got 3 bird with one stone (while only aiming at 2 no less). No Ciato to gutfind them, no doc to help us and a nice WIFOM in front of Smodge. Scum are getting way too lucky this game. It bothers the heck out of me.
This paragraph bothers the heck out of me. Scum have had only one kill. Describing it in this fashion sounds like scumgloating (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Finding_Mafia). Minor, just noting it.
I recall her doing this once before earlier in the game.
Honestly its not much, Tom looks bad, QR looks minorly bad to, however i think Tom is just being Tom so thats where my vote goes.
It's weak and not much i know, but i'm not going to find more before the hammer, i could choose to not vote, however i regardless believe Tom will be the one lynched as thats how it seems to go in prev games
QR was being unnervingly quiet day 1, combined with her strange previous post makes me want to vote for her over Tom.
-
Smodge13 (1): Alex, QR, LadyDoor
EvilTom (2): Carth, Alex, Carth
Carthrat (0)
Corwin (1): QR
QR (0): Carth
Alex (1): Smodge
Lady Door (1): Corwin
Day will currently be ending in two hours. As it stands, Tom will be lynched at the end of the day.
Just a note that I unvoted Smodge Andy, so my vote on his should be in italics.
-------------------------------------------
This paragraph bothers the heck out of me. Scum have had only one kill. Describing it in this fashion sounds like scumgloating (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Finding_Mafia). Minor, just noting it.
1 - I'd never seen that page on the wiki. Interesting. Thanks for the link. I don't know that I agree with all of them, but there are a lot that I do agree wholeheartedly with.
2 - Now, the actual thing you acused me of: Saying scum killed Ciato because they feared her. o.0 Alex, you DO realize that's been said before, right? In fact, iirc, you were one of the ones that did. How does thinking that scum said 'kill her before she finds out who we are...and hey, nice frame in the process' translate into 'Oh NOES! They Killed our Doctor!!' as per the scumgloating note on the bottom of that page?
Wh... at point are you trying to make here? It comes off to me as vaguely threatening Smodge for playing well and dropping the suggestion that he might be scum because this is out of character for him. Insert obligatory counterargument about how I'm ignoring the last sentence, which covers the above effects with a weak "Well good keep playing well in future games, I guess, OR DIE." Smodge A. has indeed been learning if you look at the last few games he's been in and B. still isn't playing all that well in this one, see the reasons for the trains on him here. I don't see why you'd write this paragraph.
Threatening players for good behavior? Reading comprehension is all of our friends. I said I am assuming that he's getting better because if not, IN FUTURE GAMES when said scumbuddy were not around helping then he would be reverting to his usual self. This means to ME, that I would not be trustful of his games after that where he was again better, assuming that again he was scum and had his scumbuddy helping. What he's done seems to be to be MOST likely getting better and as such, I SAID that at the start of my comment to him.
Now, as to why I would say he's getting better despite the train on him earlier? Because the ONLY thing I had to go on and my ONLY reason for finding him fishy was Ciato's gutcheck and NO information Day 1 to give me a better target until Strago's lurking took precedence. I kept my vote on him this morning to induce conversation, not to say I thought he was acting scummy. Please note my previous comment of:
Since right now that's my only basis, see the above withdrawn vote.
I think he seems much less scummy to me Day 2 than Day 1 considering that scumminess on Day 1 was so minimal I went mostly off Ciato's usual good senses lacking ANYTHING better to go on at that point. As to 'why I'd write this paragraph', because I was writing a paragraph on EVERYone and my only thoughts on Smodge were that I wasn't ready scumminess off him, and for him, that's good and an improvement that I dearly hoped was a lasting one.
So wait. Voting Tom for calm, rational purposes and clear statements of intent is now a point of suspicion, because it makes Tom flare up? Uh, no. No, no, and no. This is exactly the reason why Tom needs to change his playstyle and the reason why his snarkiness is harmful. Right here, he's got QR of all people buying into "don't dare attack Tom because he'll bite back and anyone who does is scummy."
Of course, that in and of itself is worrisome, since it's not something I'd expect QR to bite on at all. Especially after posting her own minirant on the topic. Between this and all of the previously mentioned points on QR and Tom individually I'm now thinking it's quite probable that at least one of the two is scum.
Again, reading comprehension. I said:
Not saying it shouldn't be touched (and when I say hot spot, I am referring those things that Tom does that made my rantypost in my previous post appear), just that he moved from the realm of logic to the realm of pushing buttons that always seem to start the confusion cloud in these games. He does touch it was calm rational purpose and clear statement of intent, though, so I don't really see anything off about the push itself, just that it's a noticeable move to something that will always cause flares of temper from Tom.
I have said repeatedly that it's Tom who needs to change his playstyle, not us. And I said that touching the button wasn't an OMGURSCUM. It was just a change in where you were going, from logic and then into pushing buttons. It gave me a null read. I most certainly do NOT buy into the don't pester Tom gambit. You have REALLY got to STOP putting word into people's mouths Alex. It is SO frustrating. Take apart what I SAY, but don't INVENT things.
My read on you was neutral because you suddenly did something different and I didn't know what to make of it, not that I thought you were starting something.
EDIT: reading Smodge's post that ninja'd me, but posting this first
-
Smodge: Since your concerns about me were tied to the things I just posted about, I'd like a response from you to see if I answered your questions or if you still had some. I'll be happy to answer, but if I answered them in my last post, no sense in copying them now.
-
"Scum are getting way too lucky this game. It bothers the heck out of me." is what I took issue with there, QR. Why scum killed Ciato has nothing to do with it.
I've already addressed why paraphrasing and interpretation (which you call putting words in people's mouths) is good. I *am* taking apart what you say, and saying "This is what I get out of it." D'ya want a more detailed breakdown?
-
Are you saying that scum did not get lucky to kill the doctor? Why is that not lucky for them? I think it's a statement of fact that one night one they managed to get our doc. can only be lucky. Can you think of something else it could be?
There is a difference between paraphrasing and saying that someone said something they DID NOT say. This is not a hard distinction to make. I can paraphrase your post above by saying:
You weren't talking about why Ciato was killed, but rather that my comment about scum being lucky to do so was purely a scumtell.
What I can not say is: Alex says scum weren't lucky to kill Ciato. Why? Does he think they knew?
One is paraphrasing, the other is twisting words that someone says to mean something they didn't. You certainly DIDN'T say what I said in that last paragrapoh (before someone jumps down my throat, that bwas purely an example). When you wordtwist, it looks scummy. Paraphrasing is a good thing and I endorse it. I, personally, SUCK at it which is why I use quotes way more often than I should.
-
I hope whatever you've got to say is good, LD, we're kind of in a jam and need to decide on killing someone quickly. I'm pretty gung-ho about lynching Tom at this stage, though, so let's all vote for him (to reiterate, he's made dumb mistakes that are classically attributed to scum, he's been an angry, angry man in his posts, and most of his content only really spilled out when people started pressuring him; somewhat fair, but I hated his attitude of 'I have nothing to say, and this is fine.')
<->
Huh QR hmm.
1) QR, flattery will get you nowhere~
2) It would actually have been great if you DID put a near hammer vote on Tom if you think he is scummy. Let's pay more attention to deadlines and not be stuck with a MAD RUSH in the last half-hour again.
3) QR-Sensei is reiterating a lot of stuff that's already been said about Smodge and Dread Thomas' playstyle. Eh.
4) The dreaded LIST OF NAMES is actually a convention I hate (it doesn't really spur discussion in a meaningful direction). Everyone seems to do it, though. I dunno, I don't actually think it's always good for town to drop all their feelings on everyone like that at once. It feels like it encourages groupthink and allows scum to easily riff off of your conclusions. I can't call it a scumtell 'cos frigging everyone does it, and sometimes it does have merit, but mainly towards the endgame. At the moment, I'm not calling it a good idea. Also it's a great thing to do if you're scum and don't know what to say... as long as you remember who's alive when you go back through the thread.
5) Inclined to agree that the 'lucky' comment is a bit weird, I mean there's only been one kill. Even if it's a doc, going 'way too lucky' actually seems to be blowing it over the top (when you think about it, doc actually isn't that great in C9, I'd rather have a cop.) If QR is indeed scum, then I believe this statement would have come out of town being on the wrong track, i.e. neither her nor her scumbuddy.
6)
THIS
I'd say he was my top contender at the moment, but I won't be placing a near hammer vote there just yet.
Was followed by THIS
So far, you're reading far closer to the scum side of things than townie, but you're nowherenear my biggest contender for this. Bronze medal at worst.
MAKE UP YOUR MIND. These were very close together (only a couple of hours apart!) Biggest problem with you I've seen so far. In fact I almost want to switch right now.
-
(oh, and QR was talking about EvilTom both times just then.)
-
Right. So I'm awake, and there's not a lot of time left on the clock.
First of all, CRat, I don't understand your question. You'll have to explain it better/rephrase it if you want me to answer it. I have no idea what you mean.
On Alex: I'm very concerned with his attitude of "you sound like scum to me, so I'm going to make it sound like you're scum to everyone else". This is not helpful town play. It's easy to use a quote, so why is he making things so much worse? And then flaring up into argument and blaming others? He did it first to me, and now to QR?
I'd like to vote for Alex at this point, but I may end up lynched if I do as there's not much time left. So ##Vote: QR
-
Ok. It has been pointed out that you appeared to point out to everyone that you are not town. I believe this is a valid interpretation of what you've said (it was implied if nothing else.)
In a post of your own, you pointed out that I said something somewhat similar ('you're not scum') at one point. I want to know why you pointed this out and what you think this says about me.
-
That you are *not scum*, yes.
-
I agree getting ducks in a row before we're dead up against a lynch is a good idea. Tom hasn't been a shining example of towniness. I still don't think he's the worst offender to me, but of the choices I have for a possible lynch, he's the best.
##Unvote Corwin
##Vote EvilTom.
As for puttinjg it on Corwin rather than Tom, I put my vote where it looked scummiest. But yes deadline approaches and we need to stop dithering.
For issue 4, I agree it's a playstyle difference. I find it very sueful when I'm laying out my own thoughts and I generally find it wass interesting to see what people say about everyone as what things they seem to skip. So, helpful for me so I use it, yeah. Not a tool for all.
For issue 5, if saying 'way too lucky' versus 'lucky' was my poor wording, I'll accept that.
-
About ten minutes to go. LD, I hope you have a vote for someone ready.
-
Huh? Oh, no that was something completely different. You say it was implied, I say it wasn't the point of the comment. If your intent is to read the statement in a way other than was intended even after multiple explanations, I don't think I'm going to be able to change your mind here on this subject.
As for the "you're not scum" quote, that was me being tired and annoyed, and pointing out that if you only partially quote somebody, you can take their quote out of context and give it a new meaning.
You refused to accept this up tot that point, basically telling me to grow up. I got more annoyed, and used that intentional misquote as an obvious example to further my case.
In other worse, taking quotes out of context is very harmful to the person quoted. And we shouldn't ignore it when people try to do it. Alex has been doing it a lot, you've only done it in a very small way. i really don't see how it helps town to make people look worse than they are. He's jumping from one target to the next, causing strife. Normally swtiching targets is fine, but not when all you're trying to do is 'push buttons' and wait for explosions.
Oh geez, ninja'd like 4 times. Post then read..
-
What you say is good and true. The heart of the matter, though, lies in what can and cannot be drawn out of something someone says, and that's a judgment call that folks need to make. We're in the business of scumhunting here, and most of the time scum aren't going to be dumb enough to say things that directly implicate themselves. Scum lie, cover their tracks, push scummy agendas in subtle ways, and occasionally slip and say things townies wouldn't. Searching for these things is good and necessary, while sticking to literal paraphrases and what the author of a post says its intended meaning is is not so helpful.
To take up your example, you COULD in fact say "Alex says scum weren't lucky to kill Ciato, does he think they knew she was doc?," and you SHOULD say so if you saw something, a turn of phrase or whatever, in my posts that made you think that. Once you bring it to everyone's attention, people can make their own decisions about whether you're seeing something valid or just off your rocker.
The author of the statements in question is the one whose word carries the least weight in such debates, for obvious reasons. It's no good for you to say "Reading comprehension! My words say what I say they mean, not what you say they mean!" when the issue is you possibly being scum and pushing the scumgenda.
I've been assuming that everyone can see where I'm deriving these meanings from once I point them out, and make their own informed judgments on them. This may be a bad habit of mine, I should make it more clear that I'm not saying these are the only possible interpretations. Just the ones that I see. If anyone wants more detailed breakdowns, just ask.
-
Wow, badly ninja'd. The above post is in response to QR.
-
On Alex: I'm very concerned with his attitude of "you sound like scum to me, so I'm going to make it sound like you're scum to everyone else". This is not helpful town play.
This too. If someone looks like scum to me, you better believe I'm going to tell everyone else what I'm seeing in their posts and why I think they're scum. As far as I know this is the definition of helpful town play.
-
Saying that something is how you read it rather than 'they said this', it would make your interpretations much more clear, yes, Alex.
-
Well, then, tack "by my reading" onto the front of every paragraph in all my posts. As should be implicitly done for everyone's posts. More skepticism, less absolutism!
-
guys, this is all very well, but at the moment we have like.. three minutes? LD, if you're reading this, drop everything you're posting and vote now, seriously, we'll hear what you've got to say afterwards, there's just no time.
-
There's a difference between telling people about it (which is good!) and misquoting/misrepresenting (which is bad!).
But with like, 1 minute to go, looks like I'm dead anyway.
Uh, roleclaim? I'm just regular town.
GG, now I can get back to modding VtM in a few hours which is a lot more fun than being strung up.
I reckon: CRat and Alex are scum, followed by Smodge. If I'm horribly wrong on these things.. well.. no surprise there.
Oh geez, every time I press post, I get ninja'd. This is three times in a row.
-
AH GEEZ GOD WHY
Alex if you're here, LD is being gay and not posting and I can't expect either QR or Tom to change votes. QR doesn't look that great lately, I'd rather kill TOM, WHAT like no time##Unvote, ##Vote: QR
-
... okay, well, there's no way in hell I can come up with a coherent argument for or against anyone in the time left.
If you want to hear about the how, wheres and whys, that's obviously going to have to wait. At this point? I don't see the reason for voting EvilTom. I do not believe he is scum. My reading so far -- and it's still back in the earlier pages, so things could easily have changed while I was in class -- leads me to go with Corwin (it's NOT OMGus, I'll explain later) or QR.
More writing after the hammer and flip. Hate 24 hour days, especially during the school week. >_<
##VOTE Corwin
-
Teh hammer time, I do believe.
-
Wait, what? Votecount please?
-
To clarify. I was trying to specify the time part there. Time's up and all.
-
Smodge13 (0): Alex, QR, LadyDoor
EvilTom (2): Carth, Alex, Carth, QR
Carthrat (0):
Corwin (1): QR, LadyDoor
QR (2): Carth, Smodge, Carth
Alex (0): Smodge
Lady Door (1): Corwin
Congrats. Sudden Death. You have one hour. Whoever takes the vote lead dies. Otherwise, AIM decides.
-
Well, QR can't remove her vote from me. I don't blame her for that.
Which only leaves Alex. Who's vendetta against me hasn't ended yet, apparently.
Umm... I'm just a poor innocent towny with a wife and kids? I really have no idea what to say here. I feel bad about trying to incriminate QR to save myself, because she hasn't looked terribly bad to me. On the other hand, I know I'm town, and I don't know her alignment, so I'm not going to suicide or anything.
-
Mrghle. Getting dragged out to the last second sucks. There actually is a hammer/modkill, so please be silent.
-
First and foremost, sorry about this. *general apologetic bow* I missed a vote... a fact which negated the sudden death. In addition, QR also told someone her alignment, which necessitated a Mod Kill. Since she was also lynched at the time, I let the lynch take precedence.
---
Alas, back and forth the arguments raged, until a voice rose in the back.
"Hey, she seems to be supporting the killers!"
It was a shuffle of votes, shouting and abuse rolled out, until QR was finally dragged to the makeshift gallows and dropped. From her pockets fell a series of papers, all detailing why Rogues need AR/Hemo back, written in crude English and netspeak. A player, for sure.
QR, (TOWN COP) has been lynched.
Smodge13 (0): Alex, QR, LadyDoor
EvilTom (2): Carth, Alex, Carth, QR
Carthrat (0):
Corwin (1): QR, LadyDoor
QR (3): Carth, Smodge, EvilTom, Carth
Alex (0): Smodge
Lady Door (1): Corwin
Night actions please
-
Alas, having once more put themselves to rest, our intrepid wannabe devs woke up, somehow knowing that they'd lose another of theirs. As such, it wasn't surprising to find that Carth was... well... MIA. The only thing left in his wake? A note that read "LOL, the little Retadin ran away!"
The worst can be presumed.
Carthrat, temp Paladin rep (TOWN), has been ganked.
Day 3 ends in 48 hours. CORRECTION: It has been brought to my attention that, considering the situation, the deadline should be lifted. As such, it has been.
YOU ARE IN LYLO.
WITH FIVE REMAINING, IT TAKES THREE TO LYNCH.
-
Well... crap. Obviously we're going to have to be careful with votes, one in the wrong place will cause scum to gank us. Blah... we're getting pwned. Cop and doc gone, and all suspicion is probably still on me from the end of yesterday, and LYLO. Not looking good.
Carthrat more or less saved me at the end of yesterday (though I have no idea why), and then he gets NKed. I wonder if he was somehow onto something? I have no idea. I'm going to have to go back and read through things again.
-
I'm trying out this new thing where I don't write everything I have to say in one post, since it tends to take me a long time to read through the thread and put it together, so... multiple posts in short order from me. I'm sorry I didn't figure this out BEFORE the deadline. >_<
First off: terrific. It's not like it could've gone any other way the minute QR flipped townie (and cop to boot, dammit), but LYLO is still for the sad-making.
Belated explanation about my last post before the deadline: I didn't buy the arguments against Tom, and I couldn't see why QR got votes stacked on her so quickly. I said "Corwin and QR" and then voted Corwin because I was picking out some really bothersome things about him, but QR was just someone I needed to look at since she'd picked up the majority vote in the time I was gone.
And now... QR possibly having a cop read that she was edging around declaring for the sake of protecting role identity kinda makes the weird behavior that had me looking at her sideways make sense. I have NO IDEA what started smodge on QR's case, though. Because Alex's arguments made sense to him, I guess? "Alex brings up some very good points about her" is all smodge says about why he votes for her, and even then he follows it up with "but she seems to be doing what she always does anyway." That puts smodge on my radar at the moment, but I'll put that up after I explain why Corwin was on my list.
Fake edit: Oh yes. And why Tom wasn't/isn't on my list. Hi Tom.
-
So, I find myself almost two hours after I said I was going to put other things up and I'm still writing. So here's a warning: LOTS O' TEXT TO FOLLOW.
-
Response to Corwin (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=363.msg7558#msg7558):
I didn't see a reason to provoke Alex. Just because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean they're automatically suspicious to me that early into things. If that's a playing error, fine, I've noted it for memory. I was still more interested in hearing from the people I hadn't seen much content from, a la my vote for smodge for his absent presence (by which I mean largely empty posts, but more of them).
My response to Tom was snarky, and it's because I got frustrated. There isn't anything I can say to defend myself from a comment like that which doesn't make me look more suspicious, so I was essentially asking exactly what it is he wanted from me, since my answer was so unsatisfactory as to provoke what Tom said.
NOTHING HAPPENED in between my original vote and my unvote that warranted shifting my vote. I still wanted to vote for smodge and my removal of the vote was just to prevent the mechanics of the game from working against him, not allowing him a chance to defend himself/speak up. I can just imagine what might have been said if I HAD unvoted and then moved my vote to someone else. "Oh, she's vote hopping at the slightest provocation! SCUM TELL!"
I know you're in another timezone a world away, I just don't know which one. "At this point" was meant to indicate that because I hadn't heard from you since noon previous, and because the days are 24 hours long, the time when you might possibly return to speak was close to the deadline.
I wasn't ignoring that WoW was closed when I saw you in VtM. I wasn't expecting you to have posted at noon. I was expecting that, because you hadn't posted by the time I made the original comment, and your last post was the previous noon except for the activity in VtM, your timezone would prevent you from coming back until shortly before the next deadline.
I wasn't calling you out for being missing, I was pointing out that you WOULD be missing for a good chunk of the remaining time. I think bringing VtM into it was an awkward way to indicate I knew you were around, just hadn't been to WoW. Maybe I didn't check timestamps versus game open time, maybe I was just vaguely pointing out that you were still alive just not active for whatever reason (this case being sleep + game being closed). I don't remember anymore.
I'm not sure why it's so relevant, since I didn't say you were lurking, just that I was worried about not having heard from you. I didn't vote you. I didn't say "Hey, Corwin's not posting! SUSPICIOUS!" I just... commented on the last time you'd posted, since just about everyone else had.
-
Re: why not Tom
The first vote on Tom is from Alex, pushed over other contenders because of an awkward sentence. I understand why it is something that might trigger a close look, but I think it got waaaay more mileage than it deserved. I read it the way Corwin and EvilTom explained it, and I didn't see any subtext such as Alex suggests.
Aside from that, then, the reason the train started on Tom was because he referred to lynched-Ciato in his post and this is an error scum's made before? Firstly, as one who hasn't played elsewhere, reference to other-game-behavior irks me. The most compelling point seems to be from
Also it's a great thing to do if you're scum and don't know what to say... as long as you remember who's alive when you go back through the thread.
and that's pure out-of-game reasoning. Beyond that: why? I see it equally town as scum error (that is, completely neutral) because... well... why wouldn't scum remember who they'd NK'd? Why wouldn't town remember who'd been NK'd? Do you see how circular that gets? I see equal reasons for both forgetting and find it kind of hard to draw conclusions from it either way.
No one else really seems to come up with any compelling reasons to read him as scum. Maybe I was being too forgiving of his errors because I could see how easy it would be to make mistakes like that without it corresponding to scum slipping up. That wouldn't've been very compelling in his favor yesterday, I don't think, but honestly he simply looked less likely than QR's quirkiness or Corwin to me. Still looks less compelling than Corwin. Might even be less so than other people. Dunno, have to get around to looking at them. >_>
-
Re: my vote on Corwin
Well I obviously had to go back over Corwin's posts and arguments in the midst of my battle with him*, and a few things stuck out to me.
*This is actually why I was around on the board and didn't post until right at the deadline. I was stupid. That is the main reason I'm trying to break up my posting. Yes, that means that these posts I've been making might otherwise have been all in one instead of separate. Scary, ain't it? >_>
Looking at QR's analysis of Corwin from Day 2. I'm trying really hard not to OMGus reflexively on people who attack me hard for newbie mistakes because I logically understand that it would be easy for scum to hide behind such things. But a third-party confirmation of how unusally hard Corwin was pushing an argument against me --
But you seem very convinced that we need to look at LD, see how your arguments are compelling and lynch her. We'll deal with the rest later sort of mentality. This seems more of the scum reasoning for killing off a newbie. Why? Because it's easier to do than going after the experienced players who will be far more likely to catch you at it.
-- makes me more confident that it might be more than my own paranoia. I haven't heard anyone else comment on this, though, and obviously QR can't bring it back, so I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.
On smodge: Alex looks bad, QR looks impeccable, neither statement says anything as that's just how they usually look to me regardless of alignment (aside from Touhou; what were you thinking, QR?). I don't know if it should worry me that I'm agreeing with smodge on those two. And him casting his eyes on LD makes me frown since smodge is leaving scumtells/smodge always does it and is town... bah, I keep on weighing those two.
Whatever. I don't want this day to be just about smodge. Let's hear from LD, and if she can answer to my satisfaction.
I understand why he wanted to hear from me, but there's something wrong with the sentence I put in bold. Specifically, why on earth was it even brought up if it's something smodge does regardless of being scum or being town? Doesn't that make it completely irrelevant as commentary? Especially to bring it up as if it were a point of contention, about the person who's on the block, but then go "But enough about that, let's look at this other person instead!"
That's mainly why I was still on Corwin at hammertime, and why I'm still looking at him as my most likely pick.
---
I'll write more on other people tomorrow. Need sleep now.
-
LD: Because I don't like agreeing with people who look scummy, yet people who always look scummy and end up flipping the other way lead to my confusion. I like to have other options. Smodge and Tom were feeling the pressure, you weren't, and someone had to seek an accounting from you for looking shifty. I also hardly called a crusade on you, and asked others to weigh in. Looking at your reasoning, it's still hard to see it as much beyond an OMGUS. Why? Because you quoted QR partially, and that paragraph started out with:
Now, the constant corraling back to LD I can see two ways. Looking at you for town, it's a very good idea to get people to stop waffling and pick a flipping target. Vote them, debate them, convince others, lynch them and move on. So, as a townie move, I can see the logic.
In any case, I still have much I don't like about you. First, after Rat called on you to vote and decide, you show up at the last minute... and don't make a decisive vote. This is even more grating because you said QR and myself were both suspicious to you, while Tom isn't... ether QR or Tom are about to get lynched, and if there's a tie, perhaps due to Hatbot's choice. And what do you do? Effectively waste your vote. Let me reiterate. You are saying QR and myself look scummy. You're saying Tom isn't looking scummy at all. And... you don't use your last minute vote to save the person who doesn't look scummy by voting a person who does, to you, and tipping the scales.
Your own answer to my suspicions is... eh. I can understand being defensive, but you're being outright fatalistic. "Had I done that other thing you suggested I should've done which would have lessened suspicion on me, it would've actually increased it!" Err, no, you would've looked less suspicious. I said as much. You're supposed to use your vote, if only to pressure people you want to hear from (except in specific cases such as LYLO, say, or when there's a clear target). The whole "I don't remember anymore" bit doesn't work for me. My posts, which you have presumably read to answer my concerns, provided links to your own posts. If you don't remember what you've written about me, you can always follow those links back.
QR: Hadn't really looked all that scummy to me in the time I was around, except for a weirdness due to the way we kept agreeing. That made me wary of her, but I likely would've voted Tom over her when the time came. He roleclaimed vanilla. In a C9 game. What. So yeah.
-
Ok i don't know how big this post is going to be, we'll see as i type it.
Everyone looks scummy which makes things really dificult.
So in case i have to go eat midpost this is my summary atm
Order of scumminess for me at the moment
1. LD
2. Corwin
3. Alex
4. Tom
LD
1. puts Strago at -1, admittedly he was the leading lurker, however LD was fairly quiet day 1 (RL reasons)
2. We have here near hammer of myself Day 2
I agree smodge looks a bit scummy. Page 2, he calls out the people sitting on 1 post a piece, but at that point his 4 posts are nothing but joke vote, explanation of timing, correction, and a call out to the lurkers. How is that any better? It smells like covering by misdirection, asking us to look at the number of posts rather than what they say.
I don't agree with Alex's original reasons for voting for him since it was a jokevote, but smodge seems resigned to being lynched and preemptively asks for a chance to defend himself before that happens. I can see where he's coming from considering how long he's going to be gone, but it felt as off to me as Ciato says it was to her. Look who's dead now?
Her reasons on the near hammer in summary how it looks, 1. for calling out lurkers when im lurkerish myself, 2. because Ciato died after accusing me.
Very little reason, admittedly there wasn't much to go on but to put me at -1 to hammer because of it?
##UNVOTE smodge
Even though it's pretty clear where I stand at this point, I'll remove it to prevent anything weird happening.
She then Removes that vote despite me no longer being in hammer range anyway.
My fourth paragraph was a case of poor argument structure. It was intended to acknowledge pieces I thought looked sound in favor of smodge but to wrap up that I still felt smodge deserved the vote I was about to place (really, really mistakenly placing him at -1). Hence the "I don't agree with the jokevote, but smodge got all defensive about it and figured it could spell his doom" sentence.
Getting Defensive when your on a leading vote train with only hours to go is scummy now? i admit i was defensive but it was within reason, i wasn't going to be around for deadline and would have had no way to defend myself in a timely manner.
Finally as end of day 2 approaches, she's online but not posting, we needed people to put in opinions ASAP and she didn't post until the final moments and who does the vote go to? Corwin, who isn't even on a trian, voting that late for someone on 0 votes is just like throwing your vote away when its that close to deadline.
-
and Corwin posts right ebfore i do, my next posts looking at you.
i'm goign to split these in to 1 post one each person.
-
Corwin up next
Corwin
1. Posts a small amount day 1, is supposedly away for the lynch.
2. Day 2 he goes after LD, Comments minorly on myself and Tom.
3. Switches to QR and comes back once again to LD, always LD.
4. Day 3 and what a surprise >.> LD again.
Not much but he keeps goign for 1 target and not commiting on anything else, very few thoughts and quite lurkerish
Smaller than i expected.
-
If you ignore I commented on Alex and QR looking the same way the always do, and that I preferred to watch Rat until a later time when I'd be able to make a call about him. Argh lurker whatever I have no words.
-
Alex, i swear there isn't a game YET when i haven't thought of you as scum at some point.
1. Day 1 comes after me based on Ciato's Gut, simply because theres nothing else to go on.
2. Day 2 votes for me again, "same reason as day 1" what Ciato's gut claim and i put her at 2 votes in joke vote stage?.
But it did get discussion going.
3. didn't vote for Strago LaL Alex's opinions seem to change from game to game, sometimes he does it sometimes he doesn't
Uh wow quicklynch much?
##Unvote: Smodge so he's not at -1. Really want to hear from him, though I can already guess what he's going to say and where his vote's going to go.
Curiosity strikes me here Alex, where did you think my vote was going? and what i was going to say?
4. The votes on me seem to be more of a "talk more" vote.
5. Minorly uncivil Hmmkay. To me this is shaping up to be Tsukihime 2, without the role insanity - in other words, the game's being obscured by inexperienced players (Smodge, Tom and Ladydoor) and folks what don't post (Strago
This comment hurts a bit, may have increased chances of making Tom "blow up"
6. At the moment I'm keeping with Smodge, on the grounds of oddity with his saying "Rat is usually right" statement pushing him up a little further than the rest of the crowd on my list.
Takes this as evidence to stay on me despite the fact he followed Ciato's gutclaim.
Defends himself by saying Timing was the key, the difference is i wanted to hear Rats thoughts i never said they would influence me nor did i let it decide a vote.
7. As for what Smodge is poking me on - yes, I do indeed find "Rat is usually right" less valid than "Ciato is usually right." If you look at the game history I'm referring to, Rat's been scum a majority of the games he's played in, while I have personally played games against Ciato as scum where she seemed to be almost psychic in picking out the scumteam, and I've seen her repeat this as a mod/observer in other games. Rat's historical arguments often read logically, but since they are from scum-Rat, if anything this says that his apparently logical judgments should NOT be trusted. The timing of the claims is also different. My statement came as a start to serious day 1 discussion, where a Ciatogut is about as good as anything else to get things going. Your statement is on day 2, when there's a case getting pressed on you, and could easily be read as an attempt to curry favor with Rat to save your skin.
If its Ciato gut Day 1, why did it carry to serious day 2? you seem to change your reasoning here.
8. we then get into the psychology discussion nothing really important here,
9. Picks Tom to vote day 2 seems like the better idea now (and had i seen QR's post before deadline i probably would have switched myself).
Alot more written here on Alex than Corwin AND LD, however he seems to always have a reason forr his actions and so is 3rd on my list of scumminess.
-
Last but not Least
Eviltom
I honestly think you have taken a slight backstep with this game skillwise.
1. Votes for LaL.
2. Corrected my grammar (nothing wrong with that) but was then a bit rude when i asked for his thoughts.
3. Accused me of not giving my thoughts in that same post when its exactly what i did.
4. Lashes out at a few people, becomes quite....... grumpy <.<
5. Then leads things off-topic about sentence interpretation
6. Gives thoughts on everyone finally, (including the deceased Ciato)
7. Goes to sleep and becomes more Civil next morning, Votes for QR on self-preservation reasons.
8. Roleclaims right before deadline, and Rat who is town switches the vote to save him.
Honestly it can all be summed up as just 1 giant smoke-screen, personally think it's just Tom being his usual Tom self.
-
Right, it is highly bizarre that Carthrat was killed. It makes no sense. He hammered town in day 1, and town cop in day 2. Why would scum kill someone like that?
Reading back through his posts, it looks like Alex and Smodge were his secondary targets. Obviously I was his primary target right up until the end, so it would be a bad idea for me to have killed him, but perfect for S/A if they wanted to frame me.
Also reading right back to the beginning of day 2, there was a lot of suspicion on him due to Ciato/Smodge debate. That was cut off prematurely when LD accidentally over-voted Smodge (if you believe her, which I do).
Something else I've noticed is that with all Smodge's long summaries, they're not very useful. They seem to gloss over certain areas, and inflate other ones. I guess that's to be expected, but with his 'order of scummyness' and very little substance behind it other than vague activity descriptions.. it has the potential to be very misleading, moreso than useful.
What am I getting at? I reckon Smodge is throwing up all these blurb posts to fill in his activity for the day, without doing anything risky, such as votes or touching on anything of real importance.
Here's where I really managed to dig up some evidence.
On day 2, QR started that previous train on Smodge that I mentioned. A short while later, Smodge counter-votes QR. Smodge and Alex seem to gang up on her... (this is around post #110). Alex doesn't vote QR though. I'm not sure if Alex is tied into this or not, but Smodge looks bad from both his voting record, his position with the dead, and the way that he looks like he's pretending to be helpful. He seems to lack the genuine helpfulness we're used to.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and hope that by going back to the town's original instincts, and with this new angle, we're getting to the root of the problem. ##Vote Smodge13
[See, I do stuff when I have info, just not day 1, I suck at day 1 >.>"]
-
I reckon Smodge is throwing up all these blurb posts to fill in his activity for the day, without doing anything risky, such as votes or touching on anything of real importance.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and hope that by going back to the town's original instincts, and with this new angle, we're getting to the root of the problem. ##Vote Smodge13
[See, I do stuff when I have info, just not day 1, I suck at day 1 >.>"]
Dude, WTF, the reason i haven't voted yet is because if we miss by even the slightest amount Scum could Hammer it at ANY moment.
This is coming way out of Left field, your putting the whole game at risk before everyone even checks in.
-
Seriously, i forgave incompetance before but this pushes the limit.
-
Woops sorry about impoliteness, this just really Annoys me, Either Tom is Scum or thankfully their not around atm.
-
Or, I'm right and you are scum.
-
And, after your OMGUS burst, I believe it a lot more now. Your reaction reinforced my belief, thanks.
-
Right, it is highly bizarre that Carthrat was killed. It makes no sense. He hammered town in day 1, and town cop in day 2. Why would scum kill someone like that?
Reading back through his posts, it looks like Alex and Smodge were his secondary targets.
Rats Secondary target?
Care to point out where i can't find it.
I can see things like this
I don't think Smodge is behaving terribly scummy. That is to say, I believe the scumminess of his early vote on day 1 has been severely overstated, and he has not been acting out of character at all. I really, really dislike his play (it's very reliant on others, as has been pointed out), but it's what he does. All the time. He needs to stop. I think being conscious of his own ineptitude could be seen as a good thing? Maybe?
I do however see things like this.
So. I wanted to shove discussion in a new direction after Alex's post pointed out things were stalling, thus my sudden burst of hyperaggression. Tom has, however, one-upped me AGAIN and I feel compelled to vote for him once more. Still want him to reply to my earlier question (there is a point to it!)
##Unvote, ##Vote: Dread Thomas.
AH GEEZ GOD WHY
Alex if you're here, LD is being gay and not posting and I can't expect either QR or Tom to change votes. QR doesn't look that great lately, I'd rather kill TOM, WHAT like no time##Unvote, ##Vote: QR
So your reasoning of me being Rats target?
Seems you were that.
Something else I've noticed is that with all Smodge's long summaries, they're not very useful. They seem to gloss over certain areas, and inflate other ones. I guess that's to be expected, but with his 'order of scummyness' and very little substance behind it other than vague activity descriptions.. it has the potential to be very misleading, moreso than useful.
What am I getting at? I reckon Smodge is throwing up all these blurb posts to fill in his activity for the day, without doing anything risky, such as votes or touching on anything of real importance.
Not useful? Like the Giant Smokescrean you Create over Day 2, this isn't the first time you have accused my posts of not being useful.
Quoting the dead Alot, Especially Rat
Smodge has stepped up and given me a lot to read. After his responses to our concerns, if he's scum, he's doing a darn good job of hiding it from me. I think for now, I feel he's closer to town than the latter. As such. ##Unvote Smodge.
Oh, please.
Smodge hasn't been lurking. This is basically true. I can point to clear and specific examples of where he has made posts, and I know his work-related excuses are valid. Give it up. Stop making these lame dire threats of "WELL YOU WON'T GET A FREE PASS, GOODSIR!"
I am not taking your quote out of context! Also, you bitch about this way too much! You said something that is basically reminding us all that you're not scum. You are also ignoring the whole concept of implied statements, like...
"Haha, EvilTom plays like a newbie." (Try to guess what I'm implying.)
I could have put this nicely! I'm NOT because I think your defence was WEAK. If your quote was indeed taken out of context, then you need to WATCH YOUR WORDS more carefully and CONSIDER how others may read them. Yes, that means YOU must adjust YOUR playing style. Not that EVERYONE ELSE must THINK DIFFERENT to accomdately YOU playing BADLY.
YOU have played terribly this game Tom, i took it at first to you just having an "off game" but now i see it as what it was a deliberate SCUM attack, Create a big-ol smokescreen and town will just think "it's jsut Tom being Tom".
Lets See you Correct my grammar and were uncivil, people warned you about this in Touhou but you still did it here, i just thought "slow learner" but obviously i was wrong.
You then lead the town off into a discussion about sentence interpretation, more distraction for day 2.
Finally you roleclaim vanilla (obviously) but if QR didn't turn out to be cop you put the real cop at a greater risk by claiming it.
Rudeness, Accusing me of lurking when i wasn't, Faulty arguments, leading the town on a tangent, roleclaim vanilla, and finally a vote that could cost the game based on your arguments "Rats secondary target, and unhelpful", Major Pot/Kettle Moment there, Looks like scum finally slipped up and revealed himself.
Good thing is, i'm not worried about scum hammer because i'm confident in this.
##Vote:EvilTom
-
Yep, definately OMGUS. And you're jumping on the same old arguments from earlier to try and throw people off track. Just like what happened at the start of day 2.
Jumping on me with an OMGUS vote doesn't make you look any better either. If anything, it makes you look worse because you give no regard for possible scumhammer. Of course, since you're scum you don't have to worry about that.
Good thing is, i'm not worried about scum hammer because i'm confident in this.
You weren't confident in it enough after your 'summaries'. You're confident in OMGUS, though. Because you're starting to slip up.
-
Tom's right about smodge going from "You're the last one I'd suspect" to "You are the scum!" being terribly suspicious. He mentions OMGUS, which is probably true, but that would actually lessen the scumminess and draw things towards bad play territory. And WHAT. Why is everyone voting off the bat during LYLO, oh the hate.
Tom's reasoning of Rat fingering smodge, however, is faulty. Smodge reasoning that Rat was gunning for Tom... is likewise faulty, given he even quotes Rat switching his vote from Tom to QR. Given pure numbers, it's likely one of them is scum. I sincerely hope they're not both scum engaging in a crazy staged fight, because that's likely to cost us the game.
Tom! This is what you said:
Something else I've noticed is that with all Smodge's long summaries, they're not very useful. They seem to gloss over certain areas, and inflate other ones.
Can you give a few examples for this that jumped at you? I don't mean the lack of usefulness, I've come to expect that from smodge, but the inflating/glossing over part.
-
Oh god what LYLO vote before everyone's even here?! DON'T DO THAT!
Well, geez. My first order of business over the night phase was reading back through QR's posts and trying to figure out who she investigated night 1. Unfortunately I'm not finding a clear answer. She didn't press any cases very hard, so she almost certainly got an innocent result. She dropped fairly serious votes on Smodge, Tom and Corwin, so it's safe to say her investigation wasn't one of them. Beyond that it's shaky. Looking at what she wrote in her list post makes me think it wasn't Rat... but her comment about scum getting too lucky now seems to point at her target having been Ciato, perhaps? The people on the line at end of day 1 (in my view) were Smodge (case on him) and Ciato and myself (pressed case on him).... well, the upshot is that I can't say anyone's cleared out of it.
Future reference for cops, please try make your investigations easy to determine after your death!
As for today, one of Smodge and Tom is scum. (or scumteam isn't around yet, in which case the game will be over when they are so that's not worth considering.)
Don't forget the possibility that both of them are scum.
Out of the two, though, I'm pretty much already sold on Tom. Everything that I said yesterday about his attitude and playstyle still holds true, plus we have him making large mistakes (Ciato's dead, hi) and casting a first vote in LYLO out of the blue.
Announcing intent to vote Tom.
-
Corwin: No problem. What jumped out at me first, was his summary of Lady Door. It barely scrapes the surface of her activity so far, and the little that he does bother to mention is only the minor mistakes she made early on. Since then she's made many great contributions.
Further, he only mentions voting record for each player when it suits him. If he's doing a breakdown like this, why wouldn't there be a consistent voting analysis too? Why only in certain parts?
Re: Both myself and Smodge being scum - I can't see how that would benefit scum. Scum has 2 players alive, all they need to do is bandwagon the first target that comes up and they've won. There's no reason for a staged fight. Not that I can imagine, anyway.
and casting a first vote in LYLO out of the blue.
What, I'm not allowed to cast a vote? I'm fully aware that scum can hammer. But the alternative that you're suggesting is that.. I shouldn't vote on my own initiative?
Oh god what LYLO vote before everyone's even here?!
See. This. This is wrong. There's 2 scum here, and 3 town. Groupthink here will get town KILLED. Why? Because scum have a 40% holding right now. Not just on votes, but on discussion and general thought. If we don't all think on our own, scum are going to take advantage of that and push the game in the direction they want.
You're saying.. I should wait for scum to show up? Why? So the two scum can easily outweigh my valid opinions? You're trying to browbeat me here out of my vote. I find this disturbing. You've said you think I'm scum, but...
Do you think Smodge is town? How can you be sure, Alex? You seem pretty dead set against me voting for him.
I appreciate the idea that we shouldn't just throw down 'pressure' votes or whatnot, we're well beyond that stage now. But, at the same time, we can't make 'drag out the day for full discussion' to be the goal. Discussion right now, with 40% scum, provides opportunity for valid town ideas to be beaten down and ignored. I am not saying discussion is bad. I am saying we should look at the facts and evidence we have so far.
I have done this, and I came up with Smodge.
I'd like you to answer my question, why are you so sure that we shouldn't vote for Smodge?
-
Because it's LYLO, which means if a townie votes another townie even ONCE, scum hammer it and win. If you are wrong SCUM WIN IMMEDIATELY. If you are townie, you cannot be certain of alignments, and it would be extremely irresponsible for you to vote Smodge and risk being wrong and losing the game this early in the game day, without giving everyone a chance to join in the discussion. You are right that we must be wary of scum influencing the discussion, but it is very wrong to cut discussion off and recklessly take the game into your own hands. Of course, that might seem appealing if you *do* know alignments.
When a vote has been cast and LYLO proceeds to a situation like this, at least one of the two is scum. I have tons of reason to believe you are scum, and this faulty LYLO play argument is a real kicker.
##Vote: EvilTom
-
Agreed. ##Vote: EvilTom
-
NO NO NO.
ReMOVE your vote from Tom. You're making a HUGE mistake if you don't.
I'm writing content now.
-
Um, that was hammer. It's a little late. >_>
Andrew's not here yet but Rat already IM'd me and spilled the beans, so... good game. I had Cor pegged, but Tom jumped the gun, so there was nothing else to be done.
-
... it was? I thought it required three votes? O_o
*reads*
oh damn, I missed smodge's. Well then. >_< *prods Andrew to wake up*
-
Alas, the third day brought arguments that were swift, brutal and harsh. Tom laid a decisive finger out.
"It must be Smodge!"
Alex, aghast by his actions, came to the only conclusion he could. "To do that in this situation! You must be one of the killers!"
The crowd fell upon Tom in an instant, dragging him to the makeshift gallows, intent on the kill. Suddenly, though, he went limp in their arms.
"Don't be fooled! He's feigning death!"
With a final cry of frustration as he was still moved and noosed, Tom dangled. Out of his pocked fell a list of new pet abilities. For all that they overpowered Hunters, there was no way a dev would ever consider giving them new pet abilities.
EvilTom, temp Hunter rep (TOWN) has been lynched.
It was then that, from the back of the room, a slow clapping was heard. "Good job, ladies and gents. Now if you don't mind, we have a game to get back to fixing." Smodge stepped forward
Corwin smiled. "I'm ashamed of you all. You should have guessed from the arena complaints that we'd be on the side of healing classes."
Smodge shook his head. "I do believe town is about to wipe."
Corwin stepped forward. "Indeed, my old friend."
LadyDoor (TOWN) temp Warrior rep got GANKED.
Alex (TOWN) temp Shaman rep got GANKED.
As of Patch 2.4, Druids are still overpowered and Priests have recently become second best class in the game...
-
Night 1
Ciato protects Carth
QR investigates Ciato
Scum kill Ciato
Night 2
Scum kill Carth
-
Many apologies to town for my disappearance. I was a lot busier than I thought I'd be, and had forgotten when Day 1 was ending. Kyar.
-
*sigh* I suck at playing anything other than vanilla, I swear to DOG!
-
Don't feel too bad, you did kind of claim your result. I just interpreted it as a scumtell instead. Would've been nice if you'd claimed to avoid the lynch, but it's mostly on my head for not lynching Tom anyhow.
-
I didn't see the point in claiming because with the Doc gone, scum would have killed me before I could make another investigation.
-
And the hubby pointed out that we might have lynched a scum rather than me. Good point, I stand corrected. But considering that Tom was next on our list I believe, hindishgt says it would have still been a fubar, Bleh. Post-It note on the brain for next time.
-
Always better than a lynch, yeah. You'll die at night but that's better than dying in the day. In this case, we would have lynched Tom, and then with both of you down and town I'd have turned to Cor, if I lived... hard to say what would have happened, but it'd have been better.
-
You probably wouldn't have, but who knows? The game was fun, but the 24 hour days made me sad. I was never lurking but I keep on being accused of it. Low content is fine, but I really couldn't make the hammertimes since they happened at like 2am. :/
-
Noooo. Not accused of lurking. Accused of not posting much when you were around. Have I still not explained that clearly? I apparently have a really big speech organization problem. I need to fix it. >_<
I'm still shaking my head at what happened end game.
-
Woo nice job with the hammer Corwin.
QR i had you pegged as a role day 1, i wanted you as our first night kill but Corwin didn't want to win that way. >.>
Couldn't help but sieze the opportunity day 2.
Also i know what you mean about this lowering my survival chances in other games, i don't think the town will accept my minor mistakes anymore.
As for everyone else, you almost had me so many times, god now i know what Rat means about being scum keeping you awake.
Good game from the town part, we thought you guys had us by the end of it, with Tom focusing on me and LD on Corwin we thought it would almost be over.
Tom, you had things right, but had you withheld your vote things probably would have gone very differently.
Thanks for a great game guys, i disliked the whole 24 hour days thing but it was fun.
-
Yeah, you gave away that you were cop with that response to me about learning from being cop in Touhou. We were going to kill you night 2 for it, but you'd gone and gotten yourself lynched, so yeah.
I still think LD acted pretty scummily, especially with the last moment vote on... me of all people. Not on QR who you suspected, to save Tom whom you believed. Without Tom around I would've pushed on the lynch with you.
-
Belated explanation about my last post before the deadline: I didn't buy the arguments against Tom, and I couldn't see why QR got votes stacked on her so quickly. I said "Corwin and QR" and then voted Corwin because I was picking out some really bothersome things about him, but QR was just someone I needed to look at since she'd picked up the majority vote in the time I was gone.
And now... QR possibly having a cop read that she was edging around declaring for the sake of protecting role identity kinda makes the weird behavior that had me looking at her sideways make sense.
I'll also note that there technically was a majority vote on her at the time. After I'd gotten positively shredded for having missed number of votes versus number required to hammer, I certainly noticed that she had the majority over Tom. I couldn't spend time defending her, though, defending Tom, AND pushing the lynch to you, who I thought was scummy. The best thing I thought I could do in the SECONDS I had left to post -- you can ask Andrew how this particular moment went in RL, considering he warned me that he was about to close the day and I was all, "WHAT? I thought I had half an hour left!"; yes, I really am that stupid -- was indicate who I thought was worst among those left in case I got NK'd or something.
-
And yes, I do now realize that it was a faulty reason to "clear" QR, considering she didn't do the thing I thought she did, but that's how it read to me at the time.
-
Oh Right Nightkill and reasons behind them
Day 1
Strago - LaL seems to be a powerful scum weapon.
Night 1.
I wanted QR, Ciato was my 2nd.
Corwin settled on Ciato, as it gets rid of a good player and slaps a nice big WIFOM which the DL hates.
Day 2
QR - I was seizing the opportunity to get her lynched, thereby saving our nightkill for someone else.
Night 2
Rat - he was the only person neither of us could build an argument against.
I think the shorter days disadvantaged the town a bit, in future maybe 48 hours would be better.
-
Oh and Night 3 if it had come to it Alex would have died.
-
Definitely. Deadline sniping is bad, days should be at least 48 hours past day 1. We had a good level of discussion going.
-
There could be an argument against Rat and his horrible flip-flopping day 2, but it was more fun this way.
-
Hah, I was right! That makes me feel much better :D
-
You solidly handed us the win, you really shouldn't. :/
-
Um, yes.
Tom, even if we'd gone with you and lynched Smodge, we'd still have to find Cor... and you'd still look worse. Quickvoting in LYLO IS BAD.
-
Had the votes swung my way i was actually going to attempt a gambit of Roleclaiming vanilla, and had in fact picked Hunter of all things.
It would have been interesting if it came to it.
-
Wwwwaaaait, you guys weren't actually told what your classes were?
-
we were.
Druids just known to be overpowered.
-
But the scum classes were rolled randomly, right? I mean, surely we couldn't have won with massclaim day 1 and lynching the "known to be overpowered" classes....
Right?
-
Yes, it wouldn't have worked, I disagree with smodge. Plus, you know, that would defeat the purpose of C9. >_>
-
Preists are also fairly overpowered.
As are Warlocks apparently.
So you probably could have picked us out, but may have hit Strago in that lot.
It was a last ditch attempt plan, lucky i didn't have to use it.
It does seem theres a minor pattern.
We're both healing Classes (although Paladin also has some healin ability)
We're both overpowered Classes (so is warlock)
Probably coincidence.
-
I thought you played DDO >.>
-
I do.
Some of my guildies play both WoW AND DDO. (sought them for advice on overpowered classes)
Also i have tried to get into WoW several times so i know it fairly well, just not the endgame/raid content.
Also my PM specifically stated how overpowered i was so i asusmed there was a pattern.
-
Randomly rolled after I doled out classes.
And honestly, if you ask around, you'll hear almost every class is overpowered in some way or another. The most unanimously agreed OP classes are actually Hunter and Warlock, with Warrior and Druid being popular back-ups, depending on what game aspect you ask about.
-
Aww, all the reasearch for nothing.
Guess it was random.
-
Night 2
Rat - he was the only person neither of us could build an argument against.
You know, that's funny. When I was looking back at the voting history, I noticed that there had been almost no contact between Carthrat and either of you. I thought about bringing that up, but I wasn't sure what to make of it, really, and in the end I figured it would come across as me trying to grab at straws framing one or the other of you.
-
Also. Priests are so not overpowered.
-
NEXT TIME, GADGET
-
Whoops.