The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => Tournaments => Topic started by: Nephrite on September 30, 2009, 03:20:23 AM
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Gilderoy/nya9ac-1.jpg)
"You are beginning to annoy me. Ah well. Let us see how things progress."
Team Tal and Piggy vs. Floor 3
Team Yoshiken vs. Floor 1
(Note, Taishyr is on hiatus for a week or two. He'll be back soon!)
Team Talaysen and Piggyman's Matches
Floor 4a: Counter-Punch
"Let's try something completely different...!"
*For this floor, any damage done to the enemies provokes one counter of the enemy's choice. Multitarget attacks cause all members hit to counter. These attacks are only targetted at the person who attacked the enemy, regardless of the original targetting mechanic.
Battle #16: FFT Squire x5 (w/ Nagrarock)
Squire: "The boss doesn't want you getting any farther."
Battle #17: Yosuke and Kanji
Yosuke: Let's do it, partner!
Kanji: Shut up and die!
Battle #18: Chie and Yukiko
Chie: Aha! Is now our chance?
Yukiko: There!
Battle #19: Nel, Fayt and Cliff
Nel: Let's go.
Fayt: All right!
Boss Battle #4: Genevieve
Genevieve: Worthless fools, wasting my powers... I shall show you true magic!
Team Yoshiken's Matches
Floor 2a: THESE! ARE! BOSSES!!
Battle #6: Milon, Baigan and Kainazzo (FF4 SNES)
Milon: I have returned from death to crush you!
Kainazzo: Oh, that fool? The one who refused to give his kingdom to me...?
Battle #7: Booster and Mack
Booster: WELCOME TO MY TOWER!!!
Mack: Boing boing!
Battle #8: Scarmiglione-Z (FF4 DS)
Scarmiglione: Ha ha ha... I have come back from death yet again...
Battle #9: Kary and Kraken
Kary: I, the Fiend of Fire shall stop you!
Boss Battle #2: Augus and Nimufu
Augus: Yes! Fight to the death for my god...
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Team Talaysen | Raquel, Jude, Arnaud, Yulie
[Synergy Bonus: This team fully heals after every battle. However, if a character dies they suffer a Max HP penalty until a full heal]
[Floor 4a]
*Any damage provokes one counter from the enemies for this floor. They may choose any attack, but any MT attack can only be used against the person who attacked them. MT attacks used on the enemy provoke a counter from all enemies. These counters go off unless the enemy is killed with an attack.
Team Talaysen vs, FFT Squire 5x (Nagrarock (25% Frog))
Team Talaysen vs. Kanji and Yosuke
Team Talaysen vs. Chie and Yukiko
Team Talaysen vs. Nel, Fayt and Cliff
Team Talaysen vs. Genevieve
Team Piggyman | Orlandu, FF5 Chemist, Cray (Speed?), Garnet, Adray
[Floor 4a]
*Any damage provokes one counter from the enemies for this floor. They may choose any attack, but any MT attack can only be used against the person who attacked them. MT attacks used on the enemy provoke a counter from all enemies. These counters go off unless the enemy is killed with an attack.
Team Piggyman vs, FFT Squire 5x (Nagrarock (25% Frog))
Team Piggyman vs. Kanji and Yosuke
Team Piggyman vs. Chie and Yukiko
Team Piggyman vs. Nel, Fayt and Cliff
Team Piggyman vs. Genevieve
Team Yoshiken | Cielo, Geno, Juan, Yukiko, Rosa (Status Symbol Law)
[Floor 2a]
Team Yoshiken vs. Milon, Baigan and Kainazzo (FF4 SNES)
Team Yoshiken vs. Booster and Mack
Team Yoshiken vs. Scarmiglione-Z (FF4 DS)
*Full Heal
Team Yoshiken vs. Kary and Kraken
Team Yoshiken vs. Augus and Nimufu (BoF2)
Speed? - The effective speed of one character is reversed (60% becomes 140%), but after the first round of combat, their speed returns to default and can not be increased in any way.
Status Symbol Law - Team is fully status, debuff and ID immune, but has all their total statistics multiplied by .90.
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Team Talaysen | Raquel, Jude, Arnaud, Yulie
[Synergy Bonus: This team fully heals after every battle. However, if a character dies they suffer a Max HP penalty until a full heal]
[Floor 4a]
*Any attack provokes one counter from the enemies for this floor. They may choose any attack, but any MT attack can only be used against the person who attacked them. MT attacks used on the enemy provoke a counter from all enemies. These counters go off unless the enemy is killed with an attack.
Team Talaysen vs. FFT Squire 5x (Nagrarock (25% Frog)) -
Nagrarock has *ONE* attack power. This means that it takes way too long for the Squires to actually kill people here. The ideal situation for the Squires is to Frog everyone then throw stones at them... but I'd see a Frog-attack as Frogging a full WA4 hex. Which includes reversing Frog. Thus, simply wait for 2 WA4 characters to be frogged, then pile into the same hex. Now WA4 wins easily (as any two non-Frogged characters can win - Jude has Joint Struggle, Arnaud has Dispel, Yulie has healing, Raquel has smash). And that's ignoring their offensive possibilities.
Team Talaysen vs. Kanji and Yosuke -
...I'll let others handle the P4, but full heals means I don't have to think too hard about it for the later fights. Illusion on Kanji is probably pretty handy here, though.
Team Talaysen vs. Chie and Yukiko
Team Talaysen vs. Nel, Fayt and Cliff -
This is the tough one. Worst case scenario: Fayt & Cliff flatten Yulie, Nel Freeze Daggers Raquel. So... Nel needs to never get a turn. Problem is the usual Yulie Turn Shifts in Raquel doesn't work due to Yulie being dead? Arnaud Slows Down Nel, fine. There's still incoming Fayt & Cliff turns aimed at Yulie. Jude however ran to Yulie's hex like the good little Knight he is and prayed Defender kicked in for one of those two attacks? Assuming it did and Yulie is alive, Turn Shift (Slow Down'd Nel still beats out Raquel here), kill Nel. Yulie's next turn is faster and she heals up, and I think they take things from there... buuut that required Defender to kick in and save Yulie. What are the odds?
Wait, better plan. Jude Funny Poses Fayt. Now Fayt likely has to attack Jude rather than Yulie, and don't think Cliff OHKOs Yulie? Eh, sounds good to me. Though this might not work if Yulie's max HP was reduced, so hmm, maybe the P4 fights matter after all.
Team Talaysen vs. Genevieve
Slow Down, Turn Shift, 2x Raquel turns. Raquel & Arnaud eating a single spell doesn't matter.
Not actually a pass vote until I see what others have to say about the P4 fights, though.
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Talaysen and Piggy both fail.
Talysen's team does not deal with Genevieve at all in this format. She OHKOs Yulie with her solid physical damage and Raquel gets killed on a counter. After those two are gone it's just a matter of mopping up. Anything the other fights can do is just extra (Arnaud getting frog is a strong possibility and they have no way to get rid of it.)
Piggy has less trouble and would beat Gen if it wasn't for the fight before. Unfortunately Garnet can not heal freeze. So at least one or two people are going into final fight frozen. Garnet's reflect would save them but it's ST and that's not good enough.
Yoshiken makes it through without too much trouble.
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Would hitting P4 weakness stop a counter in this format? I'd kneejerk that it would, which makes the P4 fights trivial for Garnet/Cray/Adray on Piggy's team. He's definitely got all the necessary elements by this point.
Arguably, Arnaud Jumps to a Leypoint for elemental damage against P4 weakness in those fights as well.
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Re dude's comments: Came up in chat. Don't think dude agrees with me, but re Genevieve speed (and, for that matter, SO3 / anything average speed) vs. WA4:
Arnaud is 114% speed. 100/1.14 = 88 clock ticks for Arnaud's turn. Genevive at 88/100 CT. Slow Down makes Gen / whoever 44% speed, so 12/ .44 = 27 more clock ticks for her turn. Total: Her turn is after 88 + 27 = 115 clock ticks. Yulie has 90% speed, and 100/.90 = 111 clock ticks. So Yulie can beat average speed after it was Slow Down'd.
I dunno, it seems like Genevive needs to have nearly every interpretation go her way to have a shot in that battle. Even if she does beat out Yulie and kill her, Arnaud spends his turn with Fragile instead. Was pointed out in chat that Jude could have gone to the Fire Ley Point and Ley Boosted, and then Raquel smash + boosted Jude smash likely kills Gen even if you let her counters annihilate anything.
Also, dude, re SO3 Freeze... that wears off naturally I believe? Even in battle? (Rarely matters since Freeze is usually followed shortly thereafter by death, admittedly) So I wouldn't see that as a concern for Piggyman's team.
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Alright, let's do this.
Team Piggyman vs, FFT Squire 5x (Nagrarock (25% Frog)) - Initial weapon break from Orlandu means only 4 shots of Frog are going in at any one time. The Squires want to Frog Chemist, but even then, that's hopeless, seeing as he can Maiden's Kiss himself back in shape (atleast, I'm pretty sure Frogs can still use items). Their offense is so terrible, anyone who can handle the Frog status is fine here.
Team Piggyman vs. Kanji and Yosuke - Yosuke's getting off a hit, but that's about it. If you're worried about the confusion, Chemist is Charming him first thing. Yosuke can't kill him in one turn. Orlandu, Cray and Adray handle Kanji, with Garnet healing counters and blows, while Yosuke hits himself to death, and Chemist constantly reapplies Charm.
Team Piggyman vs. Chie and Yukiko - This is the exact same fight as above, made easier by the fact Yukiko's got an Ice weakness. If anything, Chemist is gonna spare one of his turns on a Half-Elixir for Garnet, in case she healed a bit too much in that previous fight.
Team Piggyman vs. Nel, Fayt and Cliff -
Okay, so, here's the tough one. To be honest, Nel needs to Freeze Chemist ASAP, or she's getting Charmed, and I'm not sure she can get it off. ARPG puts them all at average speed, personally, and Cray's using his first turn to give Chemist a 50% speed boost. Chemist is only JUST below average, at 0.98x, that boost is letting Chemist get a turn first, and Nel gets Charmed. At that point, she's doing whatever, while Orlandu and Adray slowly dismember Fayt and Cliff. Broken weapon on Cliff makes him a non-factor, although Fayt can still bust some MP. Assuming he goes for Garnet, Adray can still heal in the mean time, while Orlandu shatters Fayt's weapon, and forces him to use his magic to be at all threatening. Cray can finish off Cliff in the mean time. Chemist can't do anything, due to having to reapply Charm, but remember he's been speed boosted, so he'll pull a double in not too long, which he can use to restore Garnet's MP. At that point, Nel's stuck in a Charm-lock, against someone FASTER than her, while Fayt's offense has been severely diminished. Garnet can actually heal off the worries now.
Now, jumping to the worst case scenario, let's say you don't think Chemist can get his turn after the speed boost (Nel speed respect or something? I don't know, but just in case). Garnet's still relatively above average, and can pull off Reflect on one person. Said person is going to be Chemist. Orlandu, once again, is starting off by destroying Cliff's weapon. Chemist needs to die to prevent the Charm, so big question here is if a physical from Nel and Fayt (and no weapon Cliff <.<) is enough to take him out. If Cray isn't speed buffing Chemist, he can use Shield (+20% DEF) on Chemist, to make sure he lives the assault. Chemist can't be taken down. Nel's Charmed, Cliff's weak, and it's back to Fayt alone trying to cause as much damage as he can.
ALTERNATIVELY, Nel could opt to Freeze Orlandu, but Cliff's weapon will already have been shattered, and I am told Freeze DOES wear off. Chemist does his trick, and it's back to the two guys against my team. However, now Orlandu's out of the equation, until Freeze wears off. Adray, Garnet and Cray are playing a stalling game here against Fayt, which is manageable enough. Even if they manage to kill someone off their counters or something, Garnet and Adray both have revival. The following strikes from Cray and Adray can probably kill Cliff after Orlandu's initial blast. Garnet can use Mini on Fayt anyways, if you're worried he can take out my team too quickly.
Team Piggyman vs. Genevieve - My team's probably going to be a little drained after that last fight, but all that's needed is Reflect on Orlandu, and he can likely solo Gen from there. I'll look into it more, but apparently, Gen is average speed, which is letting Garnet have her turn.
=)
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Tal passes. First 3 fights are no threat. Frog doesn't carry over between fights so Raquel can solo #1 at worst. Neither Yosuke nor Yukiko are threats to anyone and Chie and Kanji are both crippled by illusion. SO3 fight... sure, Fayt and Cliff take Yulie out. Nel can't do shit on turn 1, and the team stops her from getting a turn 2. With raquel landing the finishing blow, she doesn't get taken down by a counter. Now, everything Fayt and Cliff do provokes a counter from someone dangerous. Arnaud feeds them a debilitating stat down, Raquel feeds them pain, Jude does the same only less. Raquel can play things slow with dragon edge if need be. So they pull through and all casualties revive. As for Genevieve? Quick and bloody. A full round of attacks minus Yulie kills her. Jude attacks and dies to a counter, Arnaud attacks and dies to a counter, Genevieve OHKOs one of the girls, the survivor attacks and puts Gen away. Actual respect for VP1 lategame boss HP would let her survive that beating and win, but who with the mental capacity to operate a keyboard has any of that?
Piggyman passes too. The cray + Orlandu double team kills key targets in every fight before they get turns (including the boss) and with Nel dead before she can try freeze hax Orlandu and Cray will be alive to take Gen down... if Fayt and Cliff kill the geriatric, Chemist just brings him back.
Yoshi ... passes? Kary's great defense buys her a turn to carve up Rosa. Kraken probably gets 2 turns as Geno doesn't have good MT spam yet. He can kill Geno with those. But... Augus's terrible defense and physical reliance means that Juan can probably take him one on one, even giving up the first strike to go crush Nimufu. Kary might have magic that can cook Juan but rosa has revival already and Kraken can't OHKO her, so it's moot.
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Arnaud is 114% speed. 100/1.14 = 88 clock ticks for Arnaud's turn. Genevive at 88/100 CT. Slow Down makes Gen / whoever 44% speed, so 12/ .44 = 27 more clock ticks for her turn. Total: Her turn is after 88 + 27 = 115 clock ticks. Yulie has 90% speed, and 100/.90 = 111 clock ticks. So Yulie can beat average speed after it was Slow Down'd.
What would Yulie do with a turn? Protect can't save anyone except maybe Arnaud from an OHKO, and turn shifting isn't much help here since Raquel only gets one shot no matter what. This is all down to how durable you see Gen.
EDIT: Hi-sanctify, never mind.
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Re dude's comments: Came up in chat. Don't think dude agrees with me, but re Genevieve speed (and, for that matter, SO3 / anything average speed) vs. WA4:
Arnaud is 114% speed. 100/1.14 = 88 clock ticks for Arnaud's turn. Genevive at 88/100 CT. Slow Down makes Gen / whoever 44% speed, so 12/ .44 = 27 more clock ticks for her turn. Total: Her turn is after 88 + 27 = 115 clock ticks. Yulie has 90% speed, and 100/.90 = 111 clock ticks. So Yulie can beat average speed after it was Slow Down'd.
Small problem here is that the WA 4 speed curve comes out to 102%, so Arnaud is more like 112% and Yulie is 88%. Granted, don't think that changes anything if you see Genevieve as average speed (But it might!), but makes it...really, really close. Think Genevieve acted first, so if you take that into extra consideration like I do, might still pre-empt Yulie (I really only read this, so I have no idea how crucial this would even be).
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*Notes -
* Adray still does *not* have revival, MT healing or Berserk yet unless you're generous on the leeway what with Triple EXP and what not - I tend to lean that way but yeah MMV.
* Adray has no armour! Unless you allow IC (I allow him/Peppita/Sophia the Elven Cloak for instance) Adray's armour choice is basically non existant and even so his best main game armour iirc is the Alabative Shield from Moonbase. I think the Alabative Shield is his best armour period >_> Maybe a refined Seraphic Garb but that's post game.
*Edit* - I take that back and eat my hat. Adray does have revival and Berserk. F4 already heh.
* Garnet does not have full revival. This is an issue when you only have one other reviver and your team is being reamed twice over with counters.
*Fayt/Nel > Cliff > Adray - Their default movement rates is the tie breaker. Adray is lovin' this ARPG characters as average speed interp overall though >_>
* Nel can only not do shit T1 if you don't buy Divine Wrath. Now I know the issues with that move but yeah. With the stat topic (which I fully endorse considering all the damn work OK put into it!) Nel is second and Cliff fourth for damage. Even w/o Divine Wrath Splitting Sky is another beast entirely w/th Berserk as a factor, it only costs like an additional one fury per tick for the extra hits. Fayt respect is misplaced, he can't fully chain Ethereal Blast even w/th Berserk -and- he has to use Side Kick as cancel fodder to Ethereal Blast if he wants anything even vaguely resembling a chain at all. Ethereal Blast only works as serious offence w/th Berserk - and- minus fury factors on equipment. His other offence comes from infinity juggling with Divine Blade but -that- is with the aid of another character. Yeah no Side Kick and Air Raid are not damage, Fayt just not compete with the cannons of this game. Full EB chains and infinity juggling is *awesme* but he doesn't have that DL.
* Nel's money freeze is physical yes. No Reflect hype. Baad.
* However Body Temp might resist Nel's freeze I dunno? FF9 status blocker interps I know but you might find leeway in the dungeon =-) Or maybe not >_>
* Nel can Ice Daggers > Divine Wrath freeze shatter in a chain or Cliff/Fayt can shatter the target on their turn yeah.
* Cliff has Aerial Assault for MP damage.
* Yoshi's team seriously desires Geno Whirl. I hope he has it because Geno's basically the only one on that team with speed >_> Ceilo is only average, Juan, Yukiko and Rosa are all below average (unless I'm reading the S3 stat topic wrong Juan's speed is really quite terrible) and Status Symbol Law is not helping. I forgot to address this on F1 but yeah in addition Rosa and Yuki also have below average HP/DEF again compounded by SSL - and - Rosa's the only one on that team w/th revival at this stage <_<
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Tal and Piggy both lose to the Fayt/Nel/Cliff combo, I'm thinking. Those three just take out too many key members of the respective teams too quickly for the revivers/status-healers to catch up. Chemist Charm respect is iffy, too. Sadly enough, they have no trouble with any of the other matches by my interps.
Yoshiken... waiting for now, but leaning pass.
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(unless I'm reading the S3 stat topic wrong Juan's speed is really quite terrible)
Juan is second-best at speed. Stat topic places him at ~145% speed.
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(unless I'm reading the S3 stat topic wrong Juan's speed is really quite terrible)
Juan is second-best at speed. Stat topic places him at ~145% speed.
That's before the Status Symbol Law and if you allow him to have an... S in Swing, right? I dunno if he can get that yet.
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(unless I'm reading the S3 stat topic wrong Juan's speed is really quite terrible)
Juan is second-best at speed. Stat topic places him at ~145% speed.
That's before the Status Symbol Law and if you allow him to have an... S in Swing, right? I dunno if he can get that yet.
True. But the speed curve is way lower at the start, too, you should remember; (almost) no one has an S in anything yet, meaning all Swings and Spells are slower. Even with Status Law Symbol, he loses 1 or 2 speed at worst, still netting him as "highly above average" coupled with the overall lower speed.
Fists already beat out other things at speed.
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Juan doesn't have an S in Swing, that's Emily.
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Juan doesn't have an S in Swing, that's Emily.
Oh. ...Well then.
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Tal and Piggy both lose to the Fayt/Nel/Cliff combo, I'm thinking. Those three just take out too many key members of the respective teams too quickly for the revivers/status-healers to catch up. Chemist Charm respect is iffy, too. Sadly enough, they have no trouble with any of the other matches by my interps.
Ok, if you don't buy the Charming (item limit on Chemist? Confusion-preventing accessories?), here's a new plan.
Turn order is looking like this; Cray > Orlandu > Garnet > Nel > Cliff > Fayt > Adray > Chemist.
Keep in mind that Cray CAN make sure Adray/Chemist get a turn before the other three, thanks to the speed boost. Also, Adray has Cure Condition, which removes ALL negative SO3 status ailments, Freeze included. What Cray can do is boost Adray's speed, so he can unfreeze everyone that tries to attack Nel. Orlandu's gonna blast Nel for as much damage as he can. At this point, Orlandu can get a Twisted Headband and a Power Sleeve, and his damage is quickly rising. Admittedly, he still doesn't have Excalibur or his Bracer, but I'd peg a Holy Explosion at 0.7~ PCHP at this point. That's taking into account both the losses. Along with that, Garnet's now got Bahamut, which is a solid 2HKO (0.6~ PCHP). Nel's got below average HP, and is not getting a turn through that barrage. However, worst case scenario now is that Orlandu is Frozen, and Garnet's nearly dead from Cliff/Fayt counters. A speeded Adray, though, can unfreeze Orlandu before Cliff and Fayt move. With their turns, Cliff and Fayt can probably kill whoever they want, but I've got three active revivers. If they off anyone that isn't Chemist, Chemist is using his upcoming turn to revive them FULLY. If they off Chemist, Orlandu's shattering Cliff's weapon (meaning that counter becomes negligible, and keep in mind, both Cliff and Fayt are hurt from Bahamut. With a broken weapon, Cliff can't do much threatening, which leaves Fayt alone to take on my team, with everyone alive (except maybe Garnet, but Adray or Chemist is picking her up).
I can manage this fight, and I can manage Gen after it, too. Orlandu and Cray honestly probably handle Gen themselves.
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Monkey: Cielo has Mazio at this point along with Elec Boost. That's hitting Kraken for weakness as well as being MT, so I'm guessing he definitely falls on Turn 1.
CT: S3 runs on charge times. For the stat topic, lower speed values are better, so Juan is, in fact, damn fast.
Fight-by-fight analysis shortly~
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Piggyman passes, but it looks pretty close. Abstaining on the other two teams.
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I know there's a split in interps regarding extra turns from SMTers hitting weakness. My analysis assumes these aren't allowed, but those are available in all but the last fight for those who allow them. Definitely makes the floor a joke if you do.
Team Yoshiken | Cielo, Geno, Juan, Yukiko, Rosa (Status Symbol Law)
[Floor 2a]
Team Yoshiken vs. Milon, Baigan and Kainazzo (FF4 SNES) - Milon durability is a joke and he probably dies to a single Agi. If not, Cielo has Elec Boosted Mazio to finish him off while hurting the others. If people take Baigan with arms, then Geno & Juan probably hit those on their turns. Otherwise, this fight's over in one round.
Anyways, back to interp with arms. Juan and Geno hit the arms while Kainazzo either goes into his tsunami, which is then broken by Mazio from Cielo, or he uses his GODLY PHYSICAL of the 4HKO. Baigan also uses a puny attack, while Cielo attacks/Mazios (if Baigan regenerated the arms) and then Rosa heals off the minimal damage taken. Geno/Juan finish off the bosses.
Team Yoshiken vs. Booster and Mack - If really needed, everyone on the team can guard/skip turns, so Cielo can spend turns using Tarunda if you don't see the team blitzing past Booster's limit. Alternatively, skip Juan/Geno's first turns (or kill Mack) to allow the entire team to sweep him. Easy fight is easy.
Team Yoshiken vs. Scarmiglione-Z (FF4 DS) - Average speed and damage that won't be able to kill? Counters are worth nothing? Weakness problems with both Rosa and Yukiko? Yeah, nice sweep here.
*Full Heal
Team Yoshiken vs. Kary and Kraken - Seeing as DDS has no speed stat to lower, Cielo is still average despite SSL, and generally wins interps due to the playables moving first in most fights in-game. This puts him faster than Kraken/Kary, and thus allows Geno/Cielo turns to kill Kraken before he gets a turn. As for Kary... Juan's attack's already hitting, and Cielo can use Mazio?!?! yeah no. Anyways. Kary attacks and... might kill Rosa? I'm not sure how good FF4's equipment options are at this point. I'll assume worst-case, probably does with SSL. Juan and Geno finish off Kary.
Team Yoshiken vs. Augus and Nimufu (BoF2) - Nimufu is a joke and might even be killed while Yukiko and Cielo take their turns as normal (Maragi and Elec Boosted Mazio). A~and... if you don't see Augus dying to the overall blitz, Yukiko has Agilao at this point, while most PCs are on Lv 1 spells still. Win.
Kneejerking that Piggy passes, although I could be swayed. Charm and status healing push him through the first few fights, and... I'd guess Cray is speed-boosting Chemist, who can Split Shell Nel or Fayt while Orlandu Weapon Breaks Cliff - takes a counter, but I'd guess Cliff can't do much of any worth now. Garnet probably moves a little after Chemist, meaning she can use Bahamut to wipe out Nel here. From there, this fight isn't really much of a challenge - Garnet and Adray can keep the team healed while Chemist can Split Shell people and Orlandu can Weapon/Armour Break if necessary before killing. The next fight seems pretty easy if the whole team's alive.
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Talysen's team does not deal with Genevieve at all in this format. She OHKOs Yulie with her solid physical damage and Raquel gets killed on a counter. After those two are gone it's just a matter of mopping up. Anything the other fights can do is just extra (Arnaud getting frog is a strong possibility and they have no way to get rid of it.)
Genevieve really isn't a problem. Battle goes like this:
Jude: Move to fire hex if available, though a wind hex is better if he grabs Assault Buster (L52, so well within GC point range).
Arnaud: Jump to an elemental hex, Slow Down Genevieve. (I'd see Yulie going before Genevieve but I know you don't, so let's assume not. Slow Down reduces average speed to 42% of normal at endgame, but it's better earlier in the game, even. 42% is easily enough for these purposes.)
Genevieve: Kill Yulie.
Jude: Ley Boost if he found a fire or wind hex, otherwise defend or something.
Raquel: Moonlight.
Arnaud: Fragile
Jude: Whatever his best damage is here (likely Assault Buster). It's backed up by the +100 ATK or +100 RFX from Ley Boost. Eats a counter and dies.
Raquel: Intrude -> Moonlight -> Intrude etc. until maxed Power Charge, attack. Eats a counter and dies. If THIS doesn't kill Genevieve...
Arnaud: Magic. Backed by Crisis MAG with three allies dead. Also gets a 1.5x mult from the ley point.
She's eating Jude's best damage backed by Ley Boost, a double or so powered Raquel physical, and an Arnaud magic blast backed by 3x Crisis MAG and the leypoint, all under Fragile. That's more than enough to take her out.
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Piggyman's arguments sound fine to me, so he gets a pass.
Small problem here is that the WA 4 speed curve comes out to 102%, so Arnaud is more like 112% and Yulie is 88%. Granted, don't think that changes anything if you see Genevieve as average speed (But it might!), but makes it...really, really close. Think Genevieve acted first, so if you take that into extra consideration like I do, might still pre-empt Yulie (I really only read this, so I have no idea how crucial this would even be).
Actually... assuming what you say is true, this would switch it from a small Yulie win to basically a tie. And I would tiebreak for Genevive here if she goes first. Granted, it doesn't really matter to me, but could matter elsewhere... notably the SO3 fight. Now that I think about it, I am inclined to penalize spellcasters like Adray & Sophia in init, and give some credit to Nel & Fayt speed hype in return... that'd also render efforts to stop Nel from Freezing Raquel problematic. Sure, Raquel could get lucky and not have it affect her, but... hrmm. Dispel hype on stopping Freeze? Wouldn't normally agree with this, but it's something. Assuming that, then Nel finishes off Yulie instead. Raquel still smashes Nel, Arnaud would have Slow Down'd Fayt... but I'd also let Fayt walk out of Slow Down's hex fairly fast so this is a temporary measure at best. Jude Funny Poses Cliff again. Arnaud Shut Outs Fayt so he can't wander out of Slow Down, and arguably this messes up his physical game some as well (still has magic, but Shut Out isn't great for stopping attacks in WA4 outright, so unsure). Cliff hammers Jude, he's been hit twice now. Jude... FP permitting Mystics a Berry, Raquel got hit once by Nel and Jude is hurtin', otherwise does something like Funny Pose Cliff -> Defend? Raquel Dragon Edges Cliff to try and keep from dying. Fayt gets a turn in somewhere but he's trapped in Slow Down. I think WA4 grinds out a very narrow victory here tentatively, even with losing the speed break? Ugly. And it does require letting Arnaud's Dispel stop Freeze.
Generally willing to tiebreak matches requiring a bit of luck in favor of the team over the Dungeon, it's only when they need to get lucky repeatedly that it's a problem. So pass to Talaysen.
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Turn order is looking like this; Cray > Orlandu > Garnet > Nel > Cliff > Fayt > Adray > Chemist.
Yeah, LOL at Garnet casting Bahamut being faster than Nel. Also, while I could buy a Cray-speeded Adray as faster than Cliff and Fayt, I don't think he's going before Nel.
The way I would see that strategy going down is: Cray speeds Adray, Orlandu attacks Nel, gets Frozen, Nel Freezes Adray, Garnet does her Bahamut thing, gets killed by Fayt/Cliff counter. Fayt/Cliff kill Chemist on their turns. Now the only one left moving is CRAY. And he's now suffering the speed 'penalty' from his sealstone.
It's close, though
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SO3 has no confusion/chaos blockers but what I forgot to bring up yesterday was that SO3 characters have access to equip changing in battle. So Orlandu has to keep breaking Cliff's weapons >_>
This is probably all a moot point anyway because wasn't Orlandu known as a SO3 spoiler with MP busting?
Nel can't freeze Adray, Anti-Freezing Amulets are definitely available by now <_< She can chaos him though!
Garnet has above average speed and .. uhh I think Fayt and Mirage actually become faster than Nel (if they've been in motion for a while) Yeah irrc Adray too starts off at one speed (i.e godawful) but becomes decent if he's been moving around a while. Captain K did testing on this. Even so it's a hard thing to swallow Adray suddenly becoming faster than everyone with haste/speed up buffs and it's probably not happening T1 regardless.
Eh I'm not even entirely sure Nel's default movement rate is faster than Fayt's though. Testing tiem.
**
Oh so I was reading the stat topic wrong :-[ Thanks Bard and Yoshi <(^^)>
My respect for your team just went up!
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Garnet is above average speed, but... FF9 speed spread isn't that significant. And if I'm recalling correctly, summons are slow to cast. I just don't see 27 speed to a 25 average as beating out Nel, who's noticeably faster than most of the cast at this stage.
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Team Piggyman vs, FFT Squire 5x (Nagrarock (25% Frog))- Good at annoying, but yeah.
Team Piggyman vs. Kanji and Yosuke- Can be overwhelmed. Yosuke's MT confuse is annoying, but both are mostly ST focused for damage.
Team Piggyman vs. Chie and Yukiko- Doubt Yukiko gets a turn, Chie isn't much by herself.
Team Piggyman vs. Nel, Fayt and Cliff- Cid goes straight for the MP kill on Cliff. don't think Nel/Fayt can overwhelm them after that. Freeze isn't a concern, Piggy can just kill whoever gets frozen after killing Nel and revive/heal up.
Team Piggyman vs. Genevieve- Genevieve can't overwhelm a mostly full strength team by herself.
Tenative pass on Yoshiken's team. Need to FAQ Cielo.
Team Talaysen vs, FFT Squire 5x (Nagrarock (25% Frog))- The fight's annoying, but yeah provoke counters until everyone isn't frogged. Shouldn't be too hard.
Team Talaysen vs. Kanji and Yosuke- Jude does something, Yosuke OHKOs Yulie. Arnaud Illusions Kanji, who is still faster than Raquel and Ziodynes her to minor effect. Raquel ... I think needs to OHKO Yosuke, or Raquel could be facing getting wiped out. Do I buy that? Sure. Yosuke's losing HP from using Brave Blade. Raquel very likely gets killed this fight, but Jude/Arnaud should win it.
Team Talaysen vs. Chie and Yukiko[/b]- Arnaud's faster than the field. Illusion kills Chie's offense. Yukiko+Chie have an excellent chance of killing Raquel, but doesn't matter.
Team Talaysen vs. Nel, Fayt and Cliff- Jude does something useless, Arnaud illusions... Cliff? We'll go with Cliff. Nel OHKOs Yulie, Cliff fails. Raquel OHKOs Nel.
Team Talaysen vs. Genevieve- Genevieve OHKOs every single person here besides for Jude and still burns horribly. That auto revival skill is very neat. Jude shoots- Gen counters with CE, Arnaud Illusions and that's fight.
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Cliff's Hammer of Might and Aerial Assault ignore Evade/aren't based off HIT.
Garnet is above average speed, but... FF9 speed spread isn't that significant. And if I'm recalling correctly, summons are slow to cast. I just don't see 27 speed to a 25 average as beating out Nel, who's noticeably faster than most of the cast at this stage.
Yeah that's what I was thinking ... but I don't remember if Garnet/Eiko have any actual "stuck in casting pose" for summons or if it's just summon animation time. That could be used for tie breaks I guess or if you're not forcing Nel to turn based she could smack Garnet before the summon hits yeah. I don't know what other way to see it, the screen fills during summoning and the only things that act during that time are things like Regen/Auto Regen >_>
Adray has Cure Condition, which removes ALL negative SO3 status ailments, Freeze included.
Uhhh .... are you sure about that? The description says cures poison, paralysis and petrification not cures all status ailments. I tried to test Cure Condition vs freeze in case it just wasn't listed with the other three but Nel kept getting shattered by enemy physicals and dying before Adray could finish casting <_<
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Garnet's summons don't have an added charge time. You're thinking of FF8 and the SRPGs.
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*Clear Tranquil nods*
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Cliff's Hammer of Might and Aerial Assault ignore Evade/aren't based off HIT.
Much like damn near any attack in SO3 for all practical purposes. Accuracy and evade are basically irrelevant stats in SO3, but you don't see people hyping basically everything in SO3 as ITE. Quite the contrary, actually: often people tend to mock quite a few attacks against evade in it (ahahahahaha insanity prelude), much like it happens in TotA (ahahahahaha largo mystic artes). There is a blocking thing that only happens ever if you have an egregious level/stat advantage over the enemies, but that is nigh-impossible to take seriously.
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Adray has Cure Condition, which removes ALL negative SO3 status ailments, Freeze included.
Uhhh .... are you sure about that? The description says cures poison, paralysis and petrification not cures all status ailments. I tried to test Cure Condition vs freeze in case it just wasn't listed with the other three but Nel kept getting shattered by enemy physicals and dying before Adray could finish casting <_<
Didn't test it, but that's how GameFAQs described it.
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... why are you yelling? ;_;
=P
Hammer of Might/Aerial Assault/Kaboom/Air Raid etc are all type attacks that ignore whether or not enemies have egregious level/stat advantages or vice versa. You can't even -get- 9999 HIT to vs Solon's 9999 AGL but those skills bypass that whereas say Scatter Beam doesn't and that parry thing is a lot more noticable in general on Universe/4D even early on. Why should it be for all practical purposes when it's something that's being directly brought up? I just think it's perfectly viable that accuracy effecting skills don't effect Cliff when he still owns Solon w/th nerfed HIT. It's not just a HIT/AGL thing, those skills -ignore- parry. Hell I could in there and own Solon w/th L1 stats because Cliff's HIT is irrellevant. Well if Cliff had Hammer of Might at L1 >_> On the other hand I'd see Illusion working on Scatter Beam sure.
but you don't see people hyping basically everything in SO3 as ITE.
I don't either.
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Turn order is looking like this; Cray > Orlandu > Garnet > Nel > Cliff > Fayt > Adray > Chemist.
Yeah, LOL at Garnet casting Bahamut being faster than Nel. Also, while I could buy a Cray-speeded Adray as faster than Cliff and Fayt, I don't think he's going before Nel.
The way I would see that strategy going down is: Cray speeds Adray, Orlandu attacks Nel, gets Frozen, Nel Freezes Adray, Garnet does her Bahamut thing, gets killed by Fayt/Cliff counter. Fayt/Cliff kill Chemist on their turns. Now the only one left moving is CRAY. And he's now suffering the speed 'penalty' from his sealstone.
It's close, though
See what Monkey said. FF9 summons don't have a speed penalty. Nel's not getting a turn if you take ARPG characters at average speed, and even then, Garnet likely goes first. She's not overly speedy, but she's above average by a fair enough margin.
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... why are you yelling? ;_;
Hammer of Might/Aerial Assault/Kaboom/Air Raid etc are all type attacks that ignore whether or not enemies have egregious level/stat advantages or vice versa. You can't even -get- 9999 HIT to vs Solon's 9999 AGL but those skills bypass that whereas say Scatter Beams doesn't and that parry thing is a lot more noticable in general on Universe/4D even early on. Why should it be for all practical purposes when it's something that's being directly brought up? I just think it's perfectly viable that accuracy effecting skills don't effect Cliff when he still owns Solon w/th nerfed HIT. It's not just a HIT/AGL thing, those skills -ignore- parry. Hell I could in there and own Solon w/th L1 stats because Cliff's HIT is irrellevant. Well if Cliff had Hammer of Might at L1 >_>
What I mean is that it doesn't matter, because, effectively, SO3 skills can still be dodged or miss - just because they happen outside the utter failure that pass for accuracy/evade stats in the game (and honestly L4D/Universe are poor standards to take the stats against anyway), it doesn't mean they get a free ITE pass, especially when they can whiff in-game just fine - and I'd definitely see accuracy debuffs that are -actually good- hurting accuracy on those attacks as well, because the stronger, more useful effect gets precedence to me. TotA also has a similar issue, where things that cannot be blocked still are seen as getting owned by evasion, and TotA's block/accuracy stats don't fail nearly as hard as SO3's. I could even see Cliff's skills bypassing, say, Raquel's Blocker, but asking it to ignore evasion is plainly ridiculous to me when it's hardly pinpoint accuracy as it is.
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Garnet's summons don't have an added charge time. You're thinking of FF8 and the SRPGs.
See what Monkey said. FF9 summons don't have a speed penalty. Nel's not getting a turn if you take ARPG characters at average speed, and even then, Garnet likely goes first. She's not overly speedy, but she's above average by a fair enough margin.
Garnet is above average speed, but... FF9 speed spread isn't that significant. And if I'm recalling correctly, summons are slow to cast. I just don't see 27 speed to a 25 average as beating out Nel, who's noticeably faster than most of the cast at this stage.
I was thinking that summons slowed down turns as is standard for ATB systems, but regardless I don't see Garnet as faster than Nel. I also don't hold ARPG characters to strictly average speed.
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Oh, and my other votes.
Tal and Yoshi both pass. Arguments sound solid on both.
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Fair/Truth Snow. I just had my reasonings for saying they ignored evade due to my experiences, wasn't trying to force it on anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. There was reasoning in my mind for them to bypass evade since it was a direct HIT vs AGL thing with them ignoring it in game but yeah now that you've explained pitting them vs blockers but not evade works.
Eh everything and their dog is liable to whiff in SO3 sooner or later though, I didn't know people weighed that vs the actual blue parry shield thing but yeah. It is a very PC skill dependant game with every character.
TotA also has a similar issue, where things that cannot be blocked still are seen as getting owned by evasion, and TotA's block/accuracy stats don't fail nearly as hard as SO3's.
Ohhhh.
**
Piggy eh I dunno about that. There are two versions of Cure Condition, one is the spell Adray/Sophia learns and the other is a tactical skill picked up from a tome from Writing (auto blocks the majority of status effects but lowers DEF) Maybe that was the version you stumbled across? I'm not 100% sure that helps with freeze either though I'd have to check. I'll buy Nel as being Charmed though (according to the guys it's 100% *eyes Djinn*) but Fayt also has freeze. Admittedly character menu symbology isn't like battle skill chaining for statusing but Deep Freeze as a counter ... and it's one of those spells where if an enemy uses it and you're stuck it's like oh crap.
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Fair/Truth Snow. I just had my reasonings for saying they ignored evade due to my experiences, wasn't trying to force it on anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. There was reasoning in my mind for them to bypass evade since it was a direct HIT vs AGL thing with them ignoring it in game but yeah now that you've explained pitting them vs blockers but not evade works.
No need to apologize, I wasn't yelling at you. I just come across as blunter than I need to be at times.
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I'm more sensitive/naive/fragile/pushable than I should be too. You'd think I would have learned by now after all I've been through in life but oh well >_>
I know, every time I see Dojima I see you and I feel like Nanako/Souji <_<
Team Yoshi vs Dungeon - Sure, I'll buy Geno/Juan/Cielo respect. Rosa and Yukiko are the weakest links but meh.
Team Piggy passes assuming -
* Adray is equipped with Anti Freezing Amulet + Amulet of Freedom (anti paralysis)
* Garnet w/th Body Temp
* Nel is Charmed ASAP
* Garnet casts Reflect to nerf Deep Freeze on Cray/Chemist/Cid (forgot about that)
* Cid nukes Cliff's MP. According to super he does have the MP busting skill now so yeah. For curiousity does he start with it or what?
*Garnet Blinds/Confuses someone? I might be imagining things but I think she has those stati.
Hnnmm. This team has the resources if allowed but it's calling for a lot in the team's favour. YMMV depending on Nel freeze/chaos/poison and Fayt freeze/paralysis respect though. At least Cliff is relatively easy to deal with as a dueller though.
Nel has chaos from her Special (variation of her physical like Peppita's counters and Maria's sidestep shot) but I'd understand if peeps didn't have respect for that.
Still this is an evil, evil floor Neph!
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* Adray is equipped with Anti Freezing Amulet + Amulet of Freedom (anti paralysis)
My SO3 knowledge isn't vast, so I'll leave this one to your interpretation.
* Garnet w/th Body Temp
Garnet's got Body Temp via a Jade Armlet or a Maiden's Ring, both of which can realistically be obtained by now (maybe less so the Jade Armlet - Esto Gaza, but I recall it being obtained somewhere before, maybe through an ATE). If she's equipped with either, I'd allow Body Temp.
* Nel is Charmed ASAP
If you see Cray's Speed boost as working immediately, Chemist can get a turn before any of the SO3 characters do, and Charm Nel before she gets a turn. Otherwise, two of them (Cliff and Nel likely could) can probably kill Chemist, but that's taking away from their other priorities, and letting Cid do evil things to them, while Adray and Garnet can just pick up and heal Chemist. It also gives Garnet time to use status.
* Garnet casts Reflect to nerf Deep Freeze on Cray/Chemist/Cid (forgot about that)
Keep in mind, Reflect is ST, so she can't spend too, too much time using it on them. Although my guess is Cid and Chemist are the most likely targets, if you think Reflect is vital here.
* Cid nukes Cliff's MP. According to super he does have the MP busting skill now so yeah. For curiousity does he start with it or what?
I'm pretty sure Orlandu starts with just about all his Sword Skills. Whatever he didn't learn, he'd quickly learn on F2 or F3, so yes to MP busting.
*Garnet Blinds/Confuses someone? I might be imagining things but I think she has those stati.
Garnet has Blind, Confuse, Mini, Silence and Berserk to meddle with opponents.
Still this is an evil, evil floor Neph!
=)
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My SO3 knowledge isn't vast, so I'll leave this one to your interpretation.
Oh he has them, it's just a question of whether or not peeps allow multiple stati blockers or not. Personally I fall into the school if they have the slots for 'em they can equip 'em.
Garnet's got Body Temp via a Jade Armlet or a Maiden's Ring, both of which can realistically be obtained by now (maybe less so the Jade Armlet - Esto Gaza, but I recall it being obtained somewhere before, maybe through an ATE). If she's equipped with either, I'd allow Body Temp.
Thanks *nods* Niether of those significantly dent her defences? Probably doesn't matter but it might worth taking a look at how stati blockers work with Garnet/Eiko's defences for future references. I know there are peeps that don't allow the FF9 blockers even with the equips but yeah.
If you see Cray's Speed boost as working immediately, Chemist can get a turn before any of the SO3 characters do, and Charm Nel before she gets a turn. Otherwise, two of them (Cliff and Nel likely could) can probably kill Chemist, but that's taking away from their other priorities, and letting Cid do evil things to them, while Adray and Garnet can just pick up and heal Chemist. It also gives Garnet time to use status.
Yeah I'm seeing the versatility in your team now. Having three w/th support/revival helps a lot. All the arguments from both you and the guys in chat for Charm triggering on Nel have convinced me. With that and/or Cid ... yeah. Allowing Garnet room to mock them with status just isn't nice! =-)
Keep in mind, Reflect is ST, so she can't spend too, too much time using it on them. Although my guess is Cid and Chemist are the most likely targets, if you think Reflect is vital here.
Yeah that's what I was thinking.
I'm pretty sure Orlandu starts with just about all his Sword Skills. Whatever he didn't learn, he'd quickly learn on F2 or F3, so yes to MP busting.
All which is good to know. Thanks.
Having MP busting for SO3 characters completely turns the fight on it's ass. Fayt's MP ain't that hot either and Cliff is like the worst MP in the game w/th Roger. Nel has above average MP but she can't restore/regen it for herself or others and niether does she have revival so yeah.
Garnet has Blind, Confuse, Mini, Silence and Berserk to meddle with opponents.
That's quite a selection. Huh looks like Garnet is more of a status whore than Eiko >_>
=)
Oh god don't smile at me. It completely shattered my resolve when I saw that smile! =P
Ok there are enough checkpoints in your favour what w/th Cid and everything ...
Adray just waits for freeze/paralysis to wear off on allies in the event that anyone is nerfed with stati or Garnet pokes 'em. Yeah that works.
Team Piggy vs Dungeon
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Oh yeah, before I forget to vote. Yoshiken passes.
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Speaking of forgetting to vote, I'll be updating this tomorrow, so make sure you do vote.
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Abstain on Tal's team, might change this vote but I need to math a fight out.
Piggy and Yoshiken both pass.