The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Pyro on November 26, 2009, 02:12:13 AM
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There has been some serious discussion recently about allowing storebought (or easily given to any PC) damage magic for casts in the DL. This applies only to damage magic, not healing, status-infliction, buffing, or other such effect spells. The reasons behind this are multifold but mostly it represents the in-game damage scales better and allows good mages to properly shine. Some other benefits include single elemental resists coming up less often due to more damage variety and less arbitrary inflation for some casts.
I figured we could use a topic to discuss some of the points of this and what casts it effects. A listing of the casts potentially effected would be...
Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy 6, Final Fantasy 7, Final Fantasy 8 (?), Grandia 1, Lufia 2, Mana Khemia, Pokemon, Every single last Suikoden, Saga Frontier, Valkyrie Profile, and Wild Arms 5.
Some of the biggest winners of this interp are runeless suikoden mages, Aeris, Tia, some (unranked) water type Pokemon, Relm, and others. As a result of this a lot of damage averages go up slightly so that would hurt a lot of fighters and mages with non-storebought/initial magic a little bit. It would be a good idea to collect numbers for in the future.
So feel free to post thoughts on this system and what the effects are. For example what magic should be allowed and who it makes better and by how much. This is NOT a discussion for what you think is allowed under some kind of plot claim/gameplay claim system (ala the recent GF posts or various specific materia/esper setups and so on). Please limit this to the relevant storebought/easily obtainable for all users damage magic. Note again that this is only damage magic, not status.
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Personally, I'm not a fan of this. I understand the logic, but for all of the listed casts (Note that G3 and LoL could also fall under this), it just makes the cast more boring, not less. Yes, a few spell-less mages get to show off their gamebest magic stat. I'm personally of the opinion that if -that- is the intent, then just come to the conclusion that whoever has the gamebest magic stat can have access to a damage spell. Giving it to the whole cast tends to just inflate casts with elemental walling and -really- penalize casts with elemental weakness. It's bad enough that elemental weakness is such a harsh penalty in the DL.
To explain why I think this is different from my usual view of 'give them everything with even the most tenuous claim!'... I'm very lenient about handing out skillsets, but that's because these are skillSETS, not just another flavor of damage. Just another flavor of damage is frankly, boring... and there's enough boring casts in the DL as is. It's why I've tended toward plotclaim skills/storeboughts and affinity-based skill assignment. This gives duelists something -interesting- to work with. More importantly, it reflects in-game setups more closely, and is still representative of the character (at least to a slight degree or I wouldn't call it a 'claim'/'affinity').
Handing out damage spells to everyone -also- reflects in-game setups more closely (than not allowing anything, obviously), but I feel that damage spells only isn't close enough to an in-game setup to warrant this change just to water down the averages and make a handful of spell-less mages feel better and allow whole casts to own people with elemental weakness.
Conceivably, if the point of this is to help those spell-less mages, I would just make the claim that whoever ends up with the highest natural magic stat has access to a storebought damage spell of their choice... think of the stat as an 'affinity' for damage magic.
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I'm pretty much the diametric opposite of Djinn.
One thing about rules is that they need to be as general as possible. Djinn, your interps to help out duellers are, to my mind, incredibly arbitrary - there's no consistent way to predict which set of stuff you'll dole out to each cast. It's a mix or arbitrary cutoffs and arbitrary plot claims many of which I personally find perplexing (the recent Aeris Enemy Skill hype was particularly indicative of this). If someone else were to adopt your views they would have to learn an incredibly long list of things. (I know I'd find it confusing to learn and keep track of the facts that Squall has Diablos and Rinoa has Leviathan or... whatever you gave them.) It is far more preferable, to my mind, to have general, flexible rules for who gets what, so that multiple people can take those rules and apply them to a new cast, and hopefully come to at least reconcilable conclusions. Additionally, this reduces the potential for favouritism which is a good thing.
Now, I'm still not sure about the idea that is the subject of this topic. However, it's been tossed around enough that it is worth a look. The DL rewards uniqueness. What is unique about CC mages, or Relm, or Aeris? Their magic stat. The DL gives these casts nothing to use their magic stat with, though, and this is bad. By giving the cast "damage magic", we actually reward uniquness. Think of "damage magic" as equivalent to the attack command. It's a way for a character to use his or her core stat to do damage. While you could ban attack commands (they are universal; many ban Defend and Item for that reason), doing so would remove the unique advantage that, say, Raquel has over Yulie or Gryz has over Rune. (It would also leave many duellers unable to do damage which of course is why you would never do this and why damage magic isn't fully comparable.)
Giving it to the whole cast tends to just inflate casts with elemental walling
I actually feel the opposite. No longer will Cleo be walled by fire protection because she has access to Wind, Earth, and Lightning damage. Granted, elemental defences do still matter (Suikoden mages take a hit when forced off of Lightning, in most cases) but less so. Additionally, with more elements at their disposal, mages have the ability to hit more weaknesses... which unlike you, I consider a good thing, because mages are usually good at hitting weaknesses in-game. Too bad for DDS and to a lesser extent CC/SH duellers that they bear the brunt of this, but you know what? Being weak to elements often sucked in those games, too. If no DDS PCs had elemental weaknesses the game would be much easier!
That said, while in some cases I think this clearly increases uniqueness (FF6, FF7, Mana Khemia 2 apparently) in other cases I am less sure, particularly VP and Suikoden. I was musing about leaving VP in particular exempt but Yakko observed in chat that yeah, I really shouldn't pick and choose. So... the ups and downs have to be weighed against each other. I'm pretty sure overall uniqueness -does- increase (along with stronger in-game reflection as a bonus), but this has to be weighed against the mechanical concerns of gathering stat topic info and generally rocking the boat, for instance.
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I'm pretty much the diametric opposite of Djinn.
Well, that's a given. ;D
(the recent Aeris Enemy Skill hype was particularly indicative of this).
Please note that I was mistaken about Aeris' claim to that particular materia. I was working off of hearsay. I have since rescinded that view.
Giving it to the whole cast tends to just inflate casts with elemental walling
I should note that I was thinking of full elemental walling, or casts that block almost all elements.
That said, while in some cases I think this clearly increases uniqueness (FF6, FF7, Mana Khemia 2 apparently) in other cases I am less sure, particularly VP and Suikoden. I was musing about leaving VP in particular exempt but Yakko observed in chat that yeah, I really shouldn't pick and choose. So... the ups and downs have to be weighed against each other. I'm pretty sure overall uniqueness -does- increase (along with stronger in-game reflection as a bonus), but this has to be weighed against the mechanical concerns of gathering stat topic info and generally rocking the boat, for instance.
DDS is another storebought skill game now that I think of it. Does this mean that all DDS PCs get their scaled starting skills + all elemental damage options?
I understand if you want to throw out plotclaims, I can see how you'd consider them arbitrary (though please note that I -do- have list of everything I consider a valid plotclaim in the DL Interps topic, so it's definitely not random or favoritism). But there's enough decent precedent for allowing affinity-based skills (GS, Dis certainly, but also FFX, CC, WA, and LoL to a lesser degree) and scaled-up starting skills (SaGa, DDS) that I prefer these methods to universal 'storebought magic casts get every element!' view. This still leaves Relm, Tia, Dahna, and Aeris crying, though, so I understand.
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I'm... For the most part... Against this.
The DL, in a sense, has its own rules, and while the rules are fairly strict in terms of what is allowed for any given situation, they are there for a reason - to exemplify what a character has/is given without too much tweaking in the game systems. While I am almost Djinn-level bad for plot claims and extra allowances... These are typically to one or two characters at a time.
Now, I am all for SPECIFIC storeboughts... Like giving Cloud multiple copies of Bolt Materia for... No adequately explained reason (turning him into a magical glass cannon?), if he wants stuff like Heal or Quake, I'm gonna have to go for a no. Allowing all casts to have full storeboughts in any case makes them basically no less than carbon copies of each other.
Example? Koyu vs. Kinnison.
Except for Koyu having a higher Tech rating than Kinnison and having an extra armor class to have access to (Lucky Rings, Sun Badges, and Fish Badges... Joy), these two characters are basically the same. The only reason that Koyu beats Kinnison now is because he has that Gale Rune and then they can each fail it up with physicals until Koyu outspeeds Kinnison greatly for the win. With this? It basically becomes a race on who can fry the other with their Lightning Rune first. Before anyone asks, they both have Ds in everything, except Kinnison's C in Wind would would be disallowed simply for having Sleep and ID under these rules.
S1 fighter characters will now go straight for the runes that let them resist the opponent's more threatening damage.
Cyan will pretty much forsake any idea of using his unique (failure in the DL) skillset simply for any magic granted to him.
Saga Frontier? Endgame magic damage in that fails anyway (according to my dungeon experience), the one one that'd consider caring is Rouge and the full Mystics (except TimeLord, he's just fine with Overdrive+TimeEclipse).
It starts weighing down on how many people will start just being copies of each other after this. I'm all for uniqueness and options in the DL, but this is getting far and away from what I think is the right way to do it.
Chrono Cross? Storebought elemental spells (and maybe not-tearing-my-hair-out-trapped-spells) that are the same as the actual character's element. FF6? Uh... Nevermind on that.
Hell, even Disgaea loves you, since with enough Mana, you can buy skillsets off other characters, increasing their elemental viability. Adell doesn't like Yukiko? No problem, he casts Mega Ice.
Hi, FFXII! Welcome to the DL, where we now have six copies of the same character!
In any case, having this go through would basically also require SERIOUS cast culling.
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In any case, having this go through would basically also require SERIOUS cast culling.
Oh, actually if we did this, I'd be all for it. Cut all the 'basically no uniqueness thanks to storebought skills' casts down to one person and let them have everything. *nods*
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I may be alone, but I actually like elemental walling. Gives duellers another way to interact. If anyone, I'd say rank more people with weaknesses so that the other aspect of elements in game gets utilized! For that general reason (and because I don't think massive elemental weaknesses need to be overemphasized more; they already get hit enough in the DL). Not to mention that a few Suiko fighters are some of the few that actually make particular elemental resistances worthwhile at all (Earth for example).
That's why I'd lean towards being restrictive with magic and runes. This would also fit well into not throwing any extra magic spells on VP mages, since they already have something of a starting skillset.
Koyu vs Kinnison doesn't change much. Instead of bashing each other's heads in, they fry each other with Lightning.
On something like S2-S5, I'd go by a combo of affinity and magic. After all, having that affinity without having a solid stat to run off still leads to failure. Would at least be easy to whip up numbers for S4 if I was so inclined.
I'll also note that for me, it's not really about even up averages since I tend to go somewhat by in-game effects (Which is to say that if someone gets screwed by the DL format, I don't have a problem taking the overly blessed people a bit worse off. Example would be higher averages for Suiko Rune holders, comparing the damage for the PS 2 dragooner spell that he always uses at endgame to others in the damage average, etc...).
I like the overall idea, but its not horribly viable as an idea. I'll probably stick with a case-by-case basis.
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Uhh ... Djinn you're not "mistaken" Allow Aerith the Enemy Skill if you want. It felt right to you when you first did so and you shouldn't have to change it just because a bunch of people told you it was wrong (as people do for the majority of things you personally allow like GFs or Relm with Starlet or whatever - I'm sure anyone could go through them and provide a bunch of what but reasons for any one of them not to be allowed the stuff you've came up with just because and a lot of it's already been discussed before but yeah.
Stick to your guns muchacho!
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As for this idea I'm half and half. I always find Djinn's method and ideas fascinating and interesting he often touches on things that I've also considered so that I have no problem with it when he votes that way. However I do recognise this is not as friendly for the for the casual player/voter (though the stat topic does help)
Personally I am more inclined to allow Aerith the Enemy Skill materia from the tank she was in because who do I actually stick it on? Aerith. Why - because Aerith has the best magic power (I think for a while - at least early on) so who does more damage with Matra Magic/Flamethrower/Beta/Aqualung? Aerith. Though Matra Magic may just be an HP demi spell I dun remember >_> I think I remember Aerith doing more damage with it than others <_< I use her Matra Magic/Flamethrower early on to build up the rest her limits depending on what I did with Cloud/Aerith and/or Cloud/Aerith/Tifa earlier. So yeah *I* know that a) the Enemy Skills gets magics and that Aerith will do the mosts with those magics and that b) Aerith will also do the most with Fire/Bolt/Ice materia or the All + Element combo at that stage but that c) green magic and red summon materia will lower stats while yellow and thus Enemy Skills magics won't but I also know that d) I can't possibly expect every new player to know/get that especially if they've never played a Final Fantasy game before. They might however if they have a medium of intelligence and registered that chick with a staff = mage have still stuck on some basic attack magic on Aerith. Magic is more powerful than physicals early on in FF7 too I believe.
On the other hand my penultimate disc one set up of Aerith with Umbrella + Champion's Belt + armour - w/th- Enemy Skill, Speed/HP/MP plus only is firmly within tweak/twink terrain and Aerith with Princess Guard + Champion's Belt + two allies down + multiple mastered counter materias definitely is! >_>
I suppose my main concern is that yeah magic materia might actually hinder rather than help the FF7 cast with the stat down thing. On the other hand I don't think that overall it makes casts less interesting. For example stat downs aside magic Aerith might arise to Middle! This is definitely not noninteresting to me! <_< On the other hand Kongol's magic damage still sucks so no everyone definitely does not become Godlikes/clones/immediately better with this.
Magic - Cloud wouldn't have Heal (that ... cures statuses?) - the idea is damage only. Cloud''s a Godlike anyway irrc? So it probably wouldn't change him that much especially since yeah he already has magic damage anyway >_>
Like Dhyer I usually like elemental walling (though only to an extent - I have been getting a bit fed up of it lately) but I also like the idea of having more ways to counter it >_>
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I'm.. thinking it'll be good to allow things -in moderation-. For example, FFVII Fire/Ice/Bolt is storebought from the very start of the game, so sure, allow that. Poison? Quake? HP/MP Plus? Not quite as easy to find.
As for things like DDS (2, at least), just no. I give them any other mantra on the way to the final one for their starting paths, but that's it.
Pokemon, I think I'll only allow them for the same-type Pokémon, which might not change too much, but might help out Onix/Gastly for the dungeon, at least. (Earthquake hype for Steelix. Yeah.)
FF6... FFVI doesn't have storebought magic, does it? And the only Espers that are storebought are one-time only, so there's no real argument there. FFVIII doesn't have any storeboughts either, right?
Suikoden. This is the problematic one. I'd go with the rune affinities or something, I guess, although anyone who gets Wind suddenly gets 2-3 new tricks, and that's just a ridiculous jump in divisions for such a minor change. :/
Oh, and I'd definitely not give Aeris Enemy Skill using CT's logic. By saying "But she's got the highest magic stat, you WOULD give her the magic!", you're just giving her free reign over all magic in-game, because she'll get the most use out of it. (Although, reminds me, Cloud has a claim to one of the Enemy Skills...)
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For the record: I am for this and have been for some time. NEB pointed out the reasons rather well. (and while VP mages become more generic copies of each other, to be honest it changes zilch for their dueling worth or style, they were boring copies to begin with).
Storebought damage magic is a perfect analog for storebought weapons. Both sometimes have elements (and I don't hear much BAN ELEMENTAL WEAPONS hype). The only difference is that Magic tends to take MP/TP/whatever while physicals do not. Both allow a character to make use of a stat to do damage using commonly available means. The addendum that the attacks in question must be commonly available ensures there isn't some arbitrary twinking system going on.
This isn't giving the entire FF8 cast Haste/healing or something. Reiterated for those who seem to have missed it: This is for DAMAGE MAGIC ONLY. Not healing/status spells like on the Suiko wind runes.
As far as "eliminating uniqueness!" goes... it does this about as much as allowing storebought weaponry that multiple people can use does. The aforementioned Koyu vs. Kinnison matchup has them both failing it up with weak physicals until the fact that Koyu is actually fast as hell makes him win it cleanly. That isn't so different from both of them failing it up with weak lighting/fire magic until the fact that Koyu is fast as hell makes him win cleanly.
And this is a far, far better way to handle it then some completely arbitrary varies-from-person-to-person plot claim stuff that leaves little to no common ground for discussion or debate. Seriously, making Aeris and only Aeris a Godlike via Enemy Skill based off some farfetched plot claim? I like Aeris quite a bit, and I think that allowance is untenable.
Anyways. I was hoping to get some specific discussions of duelers who are effected by this. It would be very nice if Dhyer weighed in on Chrono Cross and Suikoden, Super weighed in on Lufia 2, Tal on MK, and so on. I realize that this would indeed be "rocking the boat", but it is a completely reasonable take and can reward uniqueness while making things truer to in-game performance. I think that could be a good thing if the logistics of getting numbers can be dealt with.
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As far as "eliminating uniqueness!" goes... it does this about as much as allowing storebought weaponry that multiple people can use does. The aforementioned Koyu vs. Kinnison matchup has them both failing it up with weak physicals until the fact that Koyu is actually fast as hell makes him win it cleanly. That isn't so different from both of them failing it up with weak lighting/fire magic until the fact that Koyu is fast as hell makes him win cleanly.
It should be noted that Koyu is only "Fast as Hell" as long as he has that Gale Rune on his ONLY (as in he only has the one) Rune Slot. If he doesn't have that Gale Rune? He's only as fast as Kinnison... And considering that the only game with actually GOOD physical rates in the series is S1, to which magic makes physicals pale in comparison for the rest of the series... Do I need to continue this thought?
Also to note, here:
100 mag: 7/4/2/1
115 mag: 8/4/2/1
Up to and at level 60, Kinnison and Koyu have the EXACT same magic stat, ending up at ~117 at level 60. If you want to penalize them those five levels for the low end of the spectrum of levels, they instead have ~108 MAG. So, one shot of an L4 and two L3s off a Lightning Rune, yes?
An L4 off a Lightning Rune... Is much similar to a turn 1 S1 critical'd physical.
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Hi, FFXII! Welcome to the DL, where we now have six copies of the same character!
It's almost like FFXII does indeed have six copies of the same character. There is a reason we aren't ranking it. <_<
Cyan will pretty much forsake any idea of using his unique (failure in the DL) skillset simply for any magic granted to him.
Nope! His game-worst Magic stat will hold his Fire 3 to about 2000 damage, which is also where his Dispatch is.
S1 fighter characters will now go straight for the runes that let them resist the opponent's more threatening damage.
Added effects of magic are not allowed, S1 gets no elemental resistance hype from me. YMMV on this one, of course, it's not too important.
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Just want to make a comment about the "AERITH HAS GAME BEST MAGIC HYPE!"
This is practically unnoticeable in game for most of the time she's around. The difference between her and other PCs is rather small. FF7 is a game where stat differences get MORE noticeable as the game goes on, not less (Damage cap issues aside), due to how equipment bonuses work. Tifa's best Magic Boosting equip is +34, and only 4 Materia Slots to boot (thus she can at best gain only 4 Materia slots worth of (minor) boosts.) Contrast this to Vincent who, not only having a higher base in a game where growths only show off more later more so than earlier, has a +48 or so weapon on an 8 Materia Slot weapon, and that's not even his best. This is why Magic Power differences are more noticeable later than earlier...and Aeris doesn't exist later.
Or as an alternative...
Look at the 2 Triple Growth weapons, Apocalypse and Scimitar. if you've cast magic with them, you may have noticed Cloud does A LOT more than Cid with them, assuming one isn't cheating with Magic PLus or MP Turbo or something...
Is this cause Cloud's basic magic is so much better!?
No, its cause Apocalypse gives a nice healthy +43 Magic Power (one of the highest in the game, especially for a Non-Ultimate), whiile Scimitar gives a piddling +20~.
Aeris has a significant Magic Boost for like 5 minutes in Train Graveyard when Striking Staff appears; by the time she rejoins, Cloud has gotten Hard Edge, and in a short period of time, Barret can get Atomic Scissors and Tifa the Grand Glove. IF we ignore these hard to get Steals, she gets nothing.
After that, her Magic edge is pretty dang minor until Temple of Ancients, when she's using a 22 Magic Weapon contrast to the +14~ other characters are using (its only a 7 Materia slot weapon too.)
All Storebought Magic does for the FF7 cast is raise Tifa, Vincent and Barret's damage, frankly. It raises them to be about 3000~ damage when every else is doing over 4000 with their physicals.
Honestly, Aeris has game best magic, that's not in dispute...but its honestly not much of an edge to be wholey significant. What are significant advantages of her are her unique Limits (entirely support oriented), and the existence of the Fairy Tail, an early game 7 Materia Slot weapon when best at the time is 4. These factors are more likely reasons to use Aeris than her game best magic.
Oh yeah! This also doesn't account that, in my current playthrough, Aeris is generally underleveled for a good while. No, not hideously so, but she's at least a level or two below what others are, cause she:
A. Joins with a level penalty initially
B. Requires more EXP than most to get her level up
So her Magic Edge is even less than it should be, cause lower level = lower magic *AND* FF7 factors levels directly into damage, so she's doing less damage too. Her offensive advantage on Magic is really quite meaningless in game, and all this does in the DL is polarize FF7 characters to have a damage floor, which...I dunno, doesn't sound like its necessarily a good thing, nor does it necessarily up uniquess, more just polarizes the cast in a different way, and her game best magic is more an academic thing and not really an "in game use thing."
Contrast this to, say, Relm, whose Magic Power allows her do a lot more than the likes of Cyan. For simple contrast, Celes does 4000 damage in the DL with her Flare; Cyan does a little over half that. These Magic Power differences are applicable fairly early too, unlike FF7 where the differences are only significant later on. So it is reflective more of overall in game performance, not just "last section of the game!" performance. Granted, FF6 has issues that make things not reflected in game to the DL, but then, every game has something like that; few games have perfect transitiion into the DL.
TO branch from that, FF6 lacks storebought magic anyway. Even if you allowed everyone Level 2's, though, nothing really changes; even Relm has problems outdamaging her basic physical end game with level 2's!
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If you mean "storebought" magic skills, like in Grandia, then hell yes, why not. (as in part of a unique set skillset for each character) For games like Chrono Cross, with a free/open skill grid, yeah but. Only if it's of a character's innate element, then yes, it really shouldn't be an issue. But again, only if there's a good reason. (innate element, etc.)
Games like Suikoden, Final Fantasy VII or others like them. I'm not so sure. It would have to be case by case at least.
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I'm all for something that lets me vote on Milich Oppenheimer with a Lightning Rune with less concern for feeling guilty.
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TO branch from that, FF6 lacks storebought magic anyway. Even if you allowed everyone Level 2's, though, nothing really changes; even Relm has problems outdamaging her basic physical end game with level 2's!
I was thinking Fire 3 was easily accessible enough to the entire cast to be legal; you need to gain 300 AP after acquiring Phoenix and Tritoch (you can gain 4% per AP, 25 AP to learn x 12 PCs = 300), which seems reasonably doable (especially since final dungeon fights give out 5ish apiece). For Flare and Pearl this number is 600, which seems less reasonable. I guess for Quake it's 408 but I'm leery about Quake for a few reasons anyway, so drawing the line between Fire 3 and Quake is cool by me.
The operative question for me is "can this ability be reasonably obtained in-game for every single PC who can use it, without resorting to grinding" and I think Fire 3 passes.
Aeris is still helped by this view because her damage no longer sucks, which is fine because her damage didn't suck in-game due to magic (though yeah I remember Cloud having more, probably due to levels!). That said, she is possibly still Light even (Seal Evil is her only useful Limit against anyone with more damage than Palmer), though might swing low Middle.
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Uhh ... Djinn you're not "mistaken" Allow Aerith the Enemy Skill if you want. It felt right to you when you first did so and you shouldn't have to change it just because a bunch of people told you it was wrong (as people do for the majority of things you personally allow like GFs or Relm with Starlet or whatever - I'm sure anyone could go through them and provide a bunch of what but reasons for any one of them not to be allowed the stuff you've came up with just because and a lot of it's already been discussed before but yeah.
Stick to your guns muchacho!
I didn't rescind that position because people told me it was 'wrong'. However, because of their suggestions, I took the time to go back and look at the scene in question in the game (on youtube). The E.Skill materia in question really -doesn't- have anything to do with Aeris. So I'm not allowing it for her.
And this is a far, far better way to handle it then some completely arbitrary varies-from-person-to-person plot claim stuff that leaves little to no common ground for discussion or debate. Seriously, making Aeris and only Aeris a Godlike via Enemy Skill based off some farfetched plot claim? I like Aeris quite a bit, and I think that allowance is untenable.
Alright, I'm pointing this out again because I don't like being used as some kind of example of 'arbitrary' to make your idea of giving magic to -everybody- sound so much more reasonable. My views are not arbitrary. Yes, I allow a generous number of plotclaim equips/skills, but there are reasons for them. The Aeris/E.Skill thing was a mistake I made based on misinformation. When CT originally pointed out when the E.Skill materia was gained, it sounded like it was something directly tied to Aeris, whereupon actually watching the scene again, I quickly discovered that it did -not- fit my set criteria for plotclaim.
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Anyways. I was hoping to get some specific discussions of duelers who are effected by this. It would be very nice if Dhyer weighed in on Chrono Cross and Suikoden, Super weighed in on Lufia 2, Tal on MK, and so on. I realize that this would indeed be "rocking the boat", but it is a completely reasonable take and can reward uniqueness while making things truer to in-game performance. I think that could be a good thing if the logistics of getting numbers can be dealt with.
The CC numbers are all found in the topic! But sure, let's take the effect it has on Riddel (the person who gains the most from it). Note that I'm assuming my own views on this to play these numbers, although all the averages are in the topic.
The three turn average with no recharge (Which I throw out as I assume in game, you're 2 other PCs attacking will get you back to full and such) is 499. The average with elements thrown is is 535. Measly 7% increase, so it's not a drastic change on the averages at least. With no elements, Riddel's average damage is a piddly 204 or 16% to average. Using my view of limited slots and storebought damage magic, Riddel is now unleashing various levels of Meteorshowers upon the enemies at the end of her attacks. She now does 464 on average those first three turns or about 35% to average. She's still not good, but having her damage double is certainly helpful! Note that this damage holds if you allow her all elements or just white (Although the average should rise a little if you allow them all all elements solely because the black storebought elements lack an Level 4 damage spell. The rise will be pretty insignificant). So mages still aren't great (since high level is still off the table), but the increase for the bottom of the chain is pretty notable and no one loses out too badly.
I'll also play with a few PCs from S4, just for the idea. Depending on how you take averages now for S4, they should vary from about 1050-1150. Let's look at oh...Chiepoo and Viki.
Chiepoo- 2 in Fire and Lightning, 3 in Earth. He'll have about a single shot of 800 EQ (Which is definetely still a major step up given that his current damage is around 250. Of course, unless CC, my gut is that the damage average is probably getting a major rise. For the sake of ease, let's just assume it doesn't for comparison's sake). Lightning...I'll admit that I don't have good numbers for a 2 affinity around 115 magic (There wasn't any DL reason to test that line up). I'd estimate...850 for the L4, 560 for the L3 (Affinities sometimes just weren't that potent). So notably better than the Earth rune.
Viki- 3s in everything at her level of magic=basically doing the max damage with no ITD spillover. 1350 Lightning magic! (Barely scrapes up 2 shots at endgame) 1200 Earthquake! Similarly, Wendel, a far less relevant person with worse affinities gets the 1350 Lightning magic, but EQ and the best fire spell are more around 950 and 600 respectively.
If you aren't getting an L4, you still at least gain magic damage, given you a nice option against physical walls (Damage will still improve though, if not always by much). Yukari now shudders from almost the whole of all Suikoscrubs in Light.
VP isn't too big a deal (but that's the nature of VP mages), although it certainly takes some of the luster of VP:DS mages. But I guess that falls in line with my view of being more limited with what I'd hand out under these views. For that I realize it creates niches that people could break out of in game, the DL somewhat does it anyways! So I don't mind too much.
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Alright, I'm pointing this out again because I don't like being used as some kind of example of 'arbitrary' to make your idea of giving magic to -everybody- sound so much more reasonable. My views are not arbitrary. Yes, I allow a generous number of plotclaim equips/skills, but there are reasons for them. The Aeris/E.Skill thing was a mistake I made based on misinformation. When CT originally pointed out when the E.Skill materia was gained, it sounded like it was something directly tied to Aeris, whereupon actually watching the scene again, I quickly discovered that it did -not- fit my set criteria for plotclaim.
Djinn, if you really do want to not be used as a posterboy for inconsistent plot claim reasoning, you'll have to set your plot claim rules in stone a lot more firmly than you've given evidence to. No offense, but you seem to scramble for some reason to give someone something before actually looking at why would it make sense for the person to get that claim or not (using that very example still, you got all excited over the idea of a E. Skill materia being near Aeris at some point to give it to her before actually looking into why the claim was questionable for your standards). It's one thing trying to work in plot claims for things, but I think you approach this from the wrong angle.
Just about -everything- has some sort of flimsy plot claim for stuff. However, you seem rather enamored with the idea of making the plot connections and allowing the skillset, leaving the actual analytic reasoning as an afterthought - and that's poor form for consistent interpretation. The very way you described how you concocted the plot claim shows -where- the train of thoughts are going wrong. You thought it sounded like something that could be directly tied to Aeris. Instead of actually taking the time to check up whether it was the case or not, you jumped straight into ZOMG E.SKILL AERIS HYPE. Backpedalling faster bitch doesn't undo a primary mistake made - and I'll point out that you tend to be quick to jump into a mad generosity hype train before actually looking into it further.
Even further, even if this was within your bounds of allowed plot claims, what about other characters who get similarly weak plot claims? Would you allow Fiery Rage to Virginia because she's holding that medium in a single scene, then never looks at it again? Would you allow S1 Pesmerga that Rage Rune you find in the same room as he is recruited (because that's more or less the level of plot connection between Aeris and the E. Skill materia – or Red and the E. Skill materia, for that matter!)? Unfortunately, when dealing with plot claims, you -really- need a fairly strongly constructed methodology to back up your reasoning, otherwise it'll just look like you're indulging in favoritism, whether you intend to or not. Also notice you didn't even touch upon the idea of Red XIII getting that materia instead, which subtly points to the problem here (I'm sure this was out of honest excitement - but that doesn't mitigate the problem. It's a consistent problem with your approach, getting more interested in having a reason to give someone something than actually mulling the reason itself and its pros and cons out). This is why I dislike ethereal plot claims - if "zomg he spent five minutes near that materia it's totally his" or "zomg it's hidden in a basement in her house that she never bothered to check" is a good enough plot claim, then you're just rationalizing unnecessarily. Basically, if all it takes is existing near those things, then why not just allow everybody something like storebought materia, for instance? It's frankly far more elegant than scrambling for plot claims and far -fairer- to the casts. Creating entirely arbitrary uniqueness splits in casts due to esoteric excuses masquerading as plot claims that have no gameplay backing at all (starting equips are a form of gameplay backing before you grab into that line of thought: starting equipments or runes are very often conscious design choices and serve various gameplay purposes - to give you some extra clout that you may not have on a certain character before that point, to highlight a strength of the character in affinities, to give him a reason to be recruited, etc.) is more of a disservice to game casts than them getting screwed over by uniqueness problems is, because it shifts balance in a way that is entirely untrue to the character dynamics in-game -and- gives leeway for favoritism to come into the forefront.
I'm not saying you -do- engage in favoritism, but I -am- saying the approach you take is highly liable to that problem, and you should not approach it with as little forethought and as much recklessness as you have repeatedly done. You take approaches that require immense effort to keep track of sanely and beg for tons of research, but you often hand the candy before doing the homework. That's just very poor form. You might want to analyze the possibilities laid out in front of you at least a bit more carefully before you engage in hype, as you already noticed that sticking your foot into your mouth isn't a comfortable position to be in. I highly respect interp positions that have strong internal consistency and clearly shown effort, even if I don't agree with them (Tal's various interpretation oddities strike me as particularly exemplary here). But being demonstrably unable to even keep track of a basic interpretative boundary shows the interp's sailing otherwise pretty fast.
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For that I realize it creates niches that people could break out of in game, the DL somewhat does it anyways! So I don't mind too much.
Huh. I think this gets at the issue I have with the view more than anything else. It may not be a good reason, but I think I like the fact that the DL creates niches, and this particular view destroys more of those niches than anything else I've really seen, so I dislike it. I'm not saying somebody shouldn't take up this view, but it's the reason I don't think I'll be taking it up.
I'll have to point out that...
It's one thing trying to work in plot claims for things, but I think you approach this from the wrong angle.
Ouch. Truth hurts. I -do- like the idea of giving characters skills, even characters I don't like such as Aeris.
Unfortunately, when dealing with plot claims, you -really- need a fairly strongly constructed methodology to back up your reasoning, otherwise it'll just look like you're indulging in favoritism, whether you intend to or not.
Alright, well, these are my guidelines, and I generally try to avoid straying outside of these.
Plot Claim guidelines:
- If a character is ever directly handed an item/equip/ability in a plot scene, it is legal. If said item was stated as being directly for another character instead, this item is only legal for that character.
- If an item/equip/ability is found in a specific character's belongings (their home, backpack, ship, etc.), that character has legal claim to it. (This is what I thought was happening in the Aeris/E.Skill scenario, but you're right, I should have checked it before I did anything stupid like voting on it... oh wait.)
- If an item/equip/ability requires a certain character to obtain, the item is legal for that character. This discludes the main in many cases as s/he will be the onscreen character. If the main is alone, then they have claim to it.
- If a character is ever shown holding or using the item/equip/ability in a plot scene, then the item is legal for that character.
- If a character is ever shown using abilities or effects of an item/equip, it is assumed that they have access to all abilities/effects granted by an item/equip.
- If only one character is capable of using an item/equip/ability when it is found, it is legal for that character.
- If another game in a series indicates that a character has claim to an item/equip/ability, it is legal for that character.
- Innate or high-level affinity for an item/equip/ability may be considered as supplementary plot claim, but on its own is insufficient.
- Initial equipment may be extrapolated to determine endgame equipment in certain cases (tentative).
Plot claims for items/equips/skills are generally allowed, even weak claims. However, this is decided on a case-by-case basis.
e.g. (these examples are ones that I'm considering allowing, but want to hear arguments for/against) FF7 materia (Yuffie's Leviathan, Cloud's Destruct), WA3/WA5 Mediums, GS Djinn, SaGaF weapons/skills, VP1 hometown equips (Arngrim/DragonSlayer, Belenus/Pressed Flower, etc), G3 guardian orbs, WAo Guardians, FF6 summons/equips (Locke/Phoenix Cave stuff, Terra/Maduin, Celes/Palidor, Cyan/Alexander, there might be others?), S1 Cleo Fire rune, FF8 (GFs), Lufias (L2 magic based on L1 prologue forms)
I feel that these are reasonable criteria, and yes, I suppose they could take a lot of research to keep track of, but even keeping track of starting equipment is troublesome. I'm not saying everyone should adopt my views, but since I have these views, I tend to profess them when voting and discussing characters. More importantly, if I -don't- mention how these views effect a character before voting comes along, then if I have made a mistake, no one will point it out to me until it's too late. Seriously, I hyped Aeris/E.Skill, people were like 'Uhh... no.' - with their input, it was very easy to look it up, and I discovered the problem. And all before it ever came up in a voting situation. I kind of thought this was the point of discussing views in the first place?
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Certainly. But you said you don't like being seen as someone who hands things arbitrarily. I just went out of my way to show -why- you are seen that way via basic rethreading of past actions. What makes me uncomfortable with your approach is that you seem to skimp the heavy homework the view itself requires – I don't even blame you for it, but if you look at a view and realize you won't be able to keep up with its demands, then not adopting it is probably a better idea instead of adopting it and handwaving it entirely with reckless abandon. KISS is usually a good tenet to adopt in many situations, and you might want to apply that a bit more often, because it's obvious you sorta drown in the many caveats you generate yourself.
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Certainly. But you said you don't like being seen as someone who hands things arbitrarily. I just went out of my way to show -why- you are seen that way via basic rethreading of past actions. What makes me uncomfortable with your approach is that you seem to skimp the heavy homework the view itself requires – I don't even blame you for it, but if you look at a view and realize you won't be able to keep up with its demands, then not adopting it is probably a better idea instead of adopting it and handwaving it entirely with reckless abandon. KISS is usually a good tenet to adopt in many situations, and you might want to apply that a bit more often, because it's obvious you sorta drown in the many caveats you generate yourself.
It's not that I'm skimping the heavy homework, it's a pacing process. I can't be expected to redo 80+ stat topics all at once, can I? This is something that I have been doing steadily for a long time now, checking for these things as I play new games, and reading FAQs for old games as the subject comes up. When a particularly difficult claim comes up (such as E.Skill), I generally start by asking the DL rather than replaying an entire game. It's a time issue, but I enjoy doing the homework and I -have- been working on posting how my views effect duelists. I have lists of Grandia, SH, Lunar, Lufia, FF8, FF7, and SaGa already circulating around the forums. Still working on the SaGa one in particular, and I just recently posted a series of lists for 4 Suikoden games... I don't think I'm skimping at all!
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I'm sort of curious about one thing, Djinn -- what do you mean by giving SaGa Frontier characters scaled up starting skills. Don't a lot of people allow SF characters their weapon skills?
Uhh ... Djinn you're not "mistaken" Allow Aerith the Enemy Skill if you want. It felt right to you when you first did so and you shouldn't have to change it just because a bunch of people told you it was wrong (as people do for the majority of things you personally allow like GFs or Relm with Starlet or whatever - I'm sure anyone could go through them and provide a bunch of what but reasons for any one of them not to be allowed the stuff you've came up with just because and a lot of it's already been discussed before but yeah.
Stick to your guns muchacho!
I didn't rescind that position because people told me it was 'wrong'. However, because of their suggestions, I took the time to go back and look at the scene in question in the game (on youtube). The E.Skill materia in question really -doesn't- have anything to do with Aeris. So I'm not allowing it for her.
A person is allowed to rescind their views if someone argues them down. If you are completely unwilling to change your views, then discourse on the DL is completely pointless. It takes someone who is really trying to do the right thing to be willing to change a view like that with ample evidence.
Go Djinn.
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Certainly. But you said you don't like being seen as someone who hands things arbitrarily. I just went out of my way to show -why- you are seen that way via basic rethreading of past actions. What makes me uncomfortable with your approach is that you seem to skimp the heavy homework the view itself requires – I don't even blame you for it, but if you look at a view and realize you won't be able to keep up with its demands, then not adopting it is probably a better idea instead of adopting it and handwaving it entirely with reckless abandon. KISS is usually a good tenet to adopt in many situations, and you might want to apply that a bit more often, because it's obvious you sorta drown in the many caveats you generate yourself.
It's not that I'm skimping the heavy homework, it's a pacing process. I can't be expected to redo 80+ stat topics all at once, can I?
If you're going to take a view that does require that? I'd expect you to -do the whole work- before actually adopting the view so you don't just handwave things, or to, at the very least, cursorily analyze the new info that crops in before jumping into conclusions. And there's where your recklessness kicks in. It's glaring when you see "possible plot claim for something" and you go straight to "X dueller for Heavy! hype" mode instead of "wait a minute, let me double-check this and see if it's viable, and if it -is- viable, how it affects this character" – the latter stage is often an afterthough, and it shouldn't be. Your enthusiasm is cute, but you often outsmart yourself this way. Just keep that in mind. Also, Ciato speaks truth.
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I feel the opposite of Snow -- I think that conceptually feeling out the views and trying to see what other people think about the way they work and stuff is not a particularly bad thing. To be fair, the only reason I don't deviate my own views is because I am far too lazy to make my own stat topics. Except for Kimahri, because bashing Kim is worth the effort (and I have no idea why the least biased and most logical view of him isn't in the topic...)
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Eh, on this one I'm somewhat in agreement with Djinn re: pacing.
If this were a job/SRS BSNS your approach would make sense to me, Snow, but... it's not, we're here to have fun/discuss things for amusement and interest, having to double-check/fact check everything isn't always entertaining and thus we may just go with a cursory feel/assumption (Hi, Ice Queen Avril!). Yes, jumping into "x for Heavy" may need to be retracted, may be flat out wrong. Okay. Amusing hype can still be amusing even if it's proven wrong at a possible later date. Not my mindset to make that jump (hi, taking very few hype assumptions in FFTA2 that didn't prove right! (screw Berserkers)), nor do I think it's yours, Snow, but it's still valid - so long as people are willing to change when they're in error, no matter which view they take.
This being said kinda generally agree with your arguments otherwise and thus cookies for all around. Iunno.
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It only becomes a reason to argue for me when the person starts seriously believing the hype and jumping into the train and then starts looking at people like a puppy dog who fell out of the car while the family is on the move to another town. That and I like arguing. I also know I sound a lot more serious and stern than I actually am regarding those things, but I find I need to be assertive in debate to even be worth responding to.
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Except for Kimahri, because bashing Kim is worth the effort (and I have no idea why the least biased and most logical view of him isn't in the topic...)
Because it's not really necessary. He can't lose to the handful of people with comperable stats than him (they don't have skillsets ie lose to E&C) and we can safely guarantee he loses all slugging matches.
On topic: I see no compelling reason to really go with this, though it's a neat intellectual exercise and, as seen with Suikoden III, I'm not adverse to running through them as such.
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I'm sort of curious about one thing, Djinn -- what do you mean by giving SaGa Frontier characters scaled up starting skills. Don't a lot of people allow SF characters their weapon skills?
They do. It's partly the basis of why I allow it. I think the only difference between me and other people here is that I would allow higher-level SaGaF magic spells based on starting magic spells even if said character doesn't have the Gift. This only effects Nusakan, Doll, Mei-Ling, Mesarthim, and WhiteRose... and of them, only WhiteRose is ranked. I think I may also allow Monsters to get higher level forms based on their starting skills, but they also aren't ranked.
It only becomes a reason to argue for me when the person starts seriously believing the hype and jumping into the train and then starts looking at people like a puppy dog who fell out of the car while the family is on the move to another town.
You know, there is some precedent to plot claim in the DL, I just looked at that, then decided on a set of criteria I felt counted as generally indicative of decent plot claim. It -is- more generous than most, but it's a serious interpretation and had Aeris' claim to that E.Skill been as strong as it seemed to me at first, I wouldn't have any qualms allowing it.
I don't appreciate being called a puppy when I'm being pretty open-minded about this criticism though. Especially after all the work I have been putting into this view -and- posting for review. I know I joke about how I 'like handing out skillsets', but that's because I'm not unaware that my view is uncommon/unique. But my reasons are rooted in similar desires as yours - to see DL characters reflect their in-game performance and to be fair/consistent when interpreting casts.
As long as I'm following that, I really don't appreciate being called arbitrary or unthoughtful. Especially when I come to you guys for review and help when I realize I need it.
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You mean that you would give White Rose Mega Windblast or something? That seems really fair to me.
I agree with Djinn. I think you are being pretty cruel to him for just trying something new out. It's a hard thing to balance and I think he is trying to do it in the most fair way possible.
Cmdr: ALENIA!! But more seriously it affects the rest of the cast too.
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I'm personally in favour of methods that bring it closer to the actual in-game.
When WA5 was initially ranked, I expressed how absurd I found it to not give anyone (excepting Carol and Greg) any Mediums, based on the criteria that "plot claims" were too vague or too controversial. I pointed out that I found Final Fantasy 8's "non-GF" rankings equally absurd since it did not at all reflect in-game performance of the PCs.
A controversial plot claim, for example, would be Dean/Rebecca mediums. Dean and Rebecca are, together, given two Mediums. However, since neither of the two can be said to be the designated user of one of the two mediums, both are tossed out altogether and not given to the two. Perhaps there is the argument that Avril could use them just as well at that moment. (to which my kneejerk response is, "She literally gets handed the Mountain Medium later, making that her plot medium.")
Another is, I believe, Squall's Quetzalcoatl/Shiva Guardian Forces, who are both stored in his PC but apparently not considered legal Guardian Forces for him to use. I may be wrong there, so kindly correct me if I am. I haven't looked at Final Fantasy 8 controversy in a while, and didn't really bother with Djinn's tournament exploring the cast's improvements aside from a cursory glance.
->
On the other hand, I do agree with views wherein, say, Suikoden mages are restricted to the Runes they begin with. I'm really not too interested in seeing Kinnison Lightning Rune hype. (although Rody hype can't ever possibly hurt, because it's Rody)
I guess my criteria falls more to games that are left out of the loop with PCs whose options are "Attack, Defend, Genuflect" under DL-legal views, whereas the in-game is decidedly more "Attack, Defend, Magic, Skills, Limit Break, Special Action Kawaii Sou Ne Sugoi Desu" than the afore-mentioned three options.
To the point, I don't think it's very good to hand all games all "damaging" moves while neglecting status/buffing. Characters with good damage due to being given a unique, damaging skillset will lose that particular niche, which would make the DL feel less unique and more bland, is my kneejerk reaction. It probably sounds contradicting, and I'm afraid I cannot argue it as not being so... but I think handing PCs their in-game particulars would be better for games that would otherwise leave us with a blank cast.
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The problem with FF8 is just that, if you only give Squall GFs, that reflects even less of in-game and makes the entire rest of the cast godawful, which is even worse than just not allowing them at all unless you love Squall and hate everyone else.
What do you mean by in-game particulars?
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The way people react to FFX as is, I don't think inflating them via temp-that-doesn't-leave is the best course of action >.>
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I understand that, Ciato. That is why I acknowledged it as a controversial plot claim. Much the same as Dean/Rebecca, since arbitrarily handing them the Medium would be unfair if, say, Dean would really like Healing but gets Offense and people can't decide over that. (To me, by the way, Dean gets the Attack Magic Medium, strengthened by how he is offensive and gets a Tim costume, while Rebecca is more "support" (she even gives support fire from afar) and gets a Yulie costume to push her into Healing Medium for me.)
In-game particulars refer to such things as Mediums for the Wild ARMs casts who are deprived, or Guardian Forces for the Final Fantasy 8 casts. I understand that it is easier to just not bother with the intense research required since, as someone pointed out just a few posts earlier, this is a hobby and not a srs bsns job thing that should require a lot of research and everything. For that reason I understand and accept that the casts I mentioned are not reflected as to how they perform in-game, and I also do not typically vote on those things unless I feel reasonably able to do so.
I feel reasonably able to vote on views differing from DL-legal views if I feel that that represents the character better to me, and when I have a clear understanding of just how it would affect them, and what I allow and don't allow.
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The problem with FF8 is that who the heck decides who gets what? Do you just pick what you personally did? Do you assign it based off joining order? What the hell even represents an FF8 character, which is simply an avatar for a skillset in-game?
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Which is why it falls under this clause:
I feel reasonably able to vote on views differing from DL-legal views if I feel that that represents the character better to me, and when I have a clear understanding of just how it would affect them, and what I allow and don't allow.
As there is no way to ascertain what makes a character 'represented' for me (Selphie with Doom Train honestly doesn't differ much from Quetzalcoatl Selphie to me) I feel reasonably confident in just leaving that mess alone and not thinking on it. I'll admit I'm rather lazy in that regard.
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Also you would never give Squall both Shiva and Quetz, you would give one to Quistis for the lava cave and then later one to Zell/Selphie for Dollet. Plotclaims that are something you wouldn't do in-game can just bite me.
To a lesser extent this is my problem with, say, Locke/Phoenix hype (and other FF6 plot espers... I am picking on Locke/Phoenix because I consider it the BEST such claim, not the worst). You don't just give Phoenix to one person in-game, so giving it to just one person in the DL rubs me wrong.
(Contrast this to Cleo's Fire Rune - you must give that Fire Rune to one person, and not only is it given to Cleo, she is by far the best choice to receive it.)
Also I support Dean/Mountain, Avril/Sky, and Rebecca/Sea if I gave them mediums which I do not. Dean is the hero talked about in the Mountain Medium shrine, Avril is the girl from the sky, and Rebecca is process-of-elimination'd. (The fact that there are so many different ways to divide these three mediums highlights the problem with doing so, though.)
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09:30 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAdEsAbQL9I&feature=related) leads me to give the Mountain Medium to Avril, as well as Old Man Tony explicitly giving the other two Mediums to Dean. Then comes the costume/characterisation things.
Whereas I'm not sure if I want to vote on Dean/Avril as being entitled to the Sea/Sky Mediums, I'm pretty set on Avril==Mountain, because they state, "I believe this is yours" and give it to her.
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It's hers the way... all the mediums are? Unless I'm going crazy she made them all. AVRIL WITH ALL SIX MEDIUMS HYPE sure why not.
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Hey I can get behind that.
All things serious, yes, it is. But it was explicitly given to her, was my point, for her to use. (I... believe the Baskars gave it to her to use anyhow.)
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It's hers the way... all the mediums are? Unless I'm going crazy she made them all. AVRIL WITH ALL SIX MEDIUMS HYPE sure why not.
I'm pretty set on Avril==Mountain, because they state, "I believe this is yours" and give it to her.
I'm thinking it's the combination of these two things that makes Avril's plotclaim to it pretty strong.
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The problem with FF8 is that who the heck decides who gets what? Do you just pick what you personally did? Do you assign it based off joining order? What the hell even represents an FF8 character, which is simply an avatar for a skillset in-game?
Well, my solution to the problem was to give each character a GF based on their starting compatibility with each GF, which are different and unique. Admittedly, compatibility is very easy to adjust simply by using the GF or magic. However, we allow initial equips, so why not allow something based on initial affinity? This is at least some gameplay-based backing for allowing a feature of FF8's battle system that is far more prevalent than their Limit breaks. I also went out of my way to make a detailed stat topic and unofficial tourney to show how it affects the cast.
So, I entirely understand if you don't want to allow GFs and all things associated with them to the FF8 cast based on initial compatibility, but I'm pointing out that there -is- a way with some gameplay backing.
I definitely prefer to allow skills based on gameplay claims than plotclaims. I've been allowing a lot of skills based more on affinity (GS, LoL, FF8, S2-5, Dis, CC) and scaled starting skills (SaGaF, DDS, FF12, FF8) and situational availability (VP1, FF7/6, FFX, SH2) than plotclaims. (By 'situational availability', I mean that a certain character is required for getting a certain skill/equip, such as the VP1 hometown weapons or the SH2 crests that can only be gotten on certain character sidequests.)
Note that some of these things are already allowed by a lot of people. Notably, Golden Sun characters get Djinni based on their innate affinity, even though it's entirely possible for them to equip -any- Djinni. SaGaF characters have basically nothing if don't allow them skills based on their starting equips. DDS characters get skills based on their starting abilities, which luckily correspond to their elemental affinities. Many allow Disgaea PCs to use weapon skills based on their innate affinities/starting equips. VP1 characters all get their hometown weapons that require a certain Einherjar to be present to obtain, even if nearly anyone can equip it. FFX characters have claim to their starting area of the sphere grid even though technically everyone can learn everything once unlocking spheres become available. WAo characters get handed their respective Guardian summons based on plot claims. And I even think there's a decent number of people who allow Maxim and Selan their respective storeboughts in L2 based on their forms from L1.
So the idea of allowing plotclaims and affinity-based storeboughts is already something that's part of the DL 'system', I just took the idea and expanded my guidelines to include things I felt would be objectively representative of a character and would better reflect the in-game performance.
Out of curiosity, though, if someone adopts this method of handing out 'easily obtainable' damage magic to whole casts, does this include LoD?
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I don't appreciate being called a puppy when I'm being pretty open-minded about this criticism though. Especially after all the work I have been putting into this view -and- posting for review. I know I joke about how I 'like handing out skillsets', but that's because I'm not unaware that my view is uncommon/unique. But my reasons are rooted in similar desires as yours - to see DL characters reflect their in-game performance and to be fair/consistent when interpreting casts.
I actually wasn't even referring to you for the puppy comment (although if you want to take the mantle, be my guest).
Now, for the part that actually matters: it's exactly the issue of in-game performance reflection that gets me with the skillset handing you do. When you hand a materia-like skillset to a PC or other, there's no real appreciable reflection of the -character's- performance in the DL by a low-end plot claim. Aeris doesn't use Enemy Skill any appreciably better than, say, Cait Sith or Yuffie, and any FF7 PC with E. Skill would be a Heavy champ-level contender in the DL at the very worst. You don't really have an objective reason to put, say, Leviathan on Yuffie over any other character (for a slightly stronger plot claim). You don't really have a reason to equip Restore on Cloud over another PC from a purely statistics standpoint when you can swap materia from PCs who are and aren't in the current party at any time (otherwise, there would be a minor in-game edge - maybe). No matter what the arrangement you do with FF7 or 8 PCs, or other high-customization, low-uniqueness cast, what you are reflecting isn't the character, or his strengths, or his weakness. What you will reflect is the strength of the customizable skillset given to you in the game rather than the character regardless. Trying to extract character uniqueness by complete skillset distribution is a lost cause - or, in practice, ends up not being the point of this exercise. However, wanting to see a skillset's strength reflected is fine!
Due to that, I'm suggesting you to actually save yourself some work and some grief and consider taking a broader approach - instead of selectively picking plot claims off difficult, often esoteric criteria that tend to reward circumstances even more than starting equipment does - and worse, in a way that has absolutely no reflection or basis in actual gameplay - why not allow all the cast storebought materia, for instance, and then let their stats say where they are better? This is generous, more reflective of the entire cast's in-game performance and actually fair to them, and lets them show off those skillsets that were waiting to flex their muscles.
It's not very unique, no, but you're not actually making a cast more unique by simply playing pick-a-claim either, and in casts where uniqueness is -not- a focus, you really can only go so far. Furthermore, forging false uniqueness creates new problems instead of solving the ones that were there before. I like your sentiment, Djinn, but I'm not sure if your approach -helps- solve the issues that you have. And, sadly, I feel that you sorta can't eat your cake and have it in this case - i.e. create an approach that is fair, reflective of in-game and really unique, because that's just not how some of those games function, and you're going to just stray away further from what you want in this case by forcing it in. Much like you can't, say, make Tin Man the fastest character in the game, or how you can't give Slow Down to Jude either in-game or in the DL, because that's not what the designers had in mind for them, you can't make FF7 or 8 PCs as unique as DQ8 PCs are in the way DQ8 PCs are, for instance - because that was not their focus when designing the game. There's only so much interps can do.
Tangentially, LoD doesn't really benefit much at all - damage item tosses are more an in-game thing. Psych Bomb X spamming would help, say, Meru's consistent magical damage, but it'd hurt her big damage bursts relatively due to higher averages (Miranda/Meru both would bring that up with that item's spammery), and the other items are at best comparable to physicals.
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I actually wasn't even referring to you for the puppy comment (although if you want to take the mantle, be my guest).
>.>
Now, for the part that actually matters: it's exactly the issue of in-game performance reflection that gets me with the skillset handing you do.
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You don't really have a reason to equip Restore on Cloud over another PC from a purely statistics standpoint when you can swap materia from PCs who are and aren't in the current party at any time (otherwise, there would be a minor in-game edge - maybe).
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Trying to extract character uniqueness by complete skillset distribution is a lost cause - or, in practice, ends up not being the point of this exercise. However, wanting to see a skillset's strength reflected is fine!
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instead of selectively picking plot claims off difficult, often esoteric criteria that tend to reward circumstances even more than starting equipment does
This pretty much sums up where our differences in this lie. You seem to think that starting equips are so much more unique than my criteria. Honestly, I look at most of the starting equips that we allow in the DL and it's easy to notice that most of them completely generic items/skills handed out to lategame PCs simply because it makes sense for lategame PCs to come with -something-. They often aren't better at using them and it rarely reflects anything about the character itself, so I apart from their 'proximity' to it, there's not that much unique about them. Sure, there are cases where it -is- something tied the character, but in the case of materia, it's really not a big indication of what the character's 'good' at and feels pretty arbitrary. (Well, Yuffie with Throw makes sense at least.)
I feel like my criteria are as good an indication of an ability/equip being 'theirs' as starting equips are. And in the cases of things like elemental affinity and situational availability, there's gameplay backing to complement the 'esoteric' plotclaims.
I know it's generous and sometimes it won't always work, but I never associated Cait Sith with the Transform materia before coming to the DL, but now I'm perfectly okay with seeing that as something that's indicative of his 'uniqueness'. Similarly, I feel materia based on decent plotclaims like Yuffie with Leviathan are pretty indicative of their 'uniqueness' now. Really, you're drawing the line of what constitutes 'uniqueness' pretty arbitrarily yourself by saying 'yes to initial equips, no to elemental affinity'. Sure, it's how the DL has done it for a long time, but that doesn't mean it's the only valid way.
Due to that, I'm suggesting you to actually save yourself some work and some grief and consider taking a broader approach - why not allow all the cast storebought materia, for instance, and then let their stats say where they are better? This is generous, more reflective of the entire cast's in-game performance and actually fair to them, and lets them show off those skillsets that were waiting to flex their muscles.
It's not very unique, no, but you're not actually making a cast more unique by simply playing pick-a-claim either, and in casts where uniqueness is -not- a focus, you really can only go so far. Furthermore, forging false uniqueness creates new problems instead of solving the ones that were there before. I like your sentiment, Djinn, but I'm not sure if your approach -helps- solve the issues that you have. And, sadly, I feel that you sorta can't eat your cake and have it in this case - i.e. create an approach that is fair, reflective of in-game and really unique, because that's just not how some of those games function, and you're going to just stray away further from what you want in this case by forcing it in. There's only so much interps can do.
I have, of course, considered this option too. I -do- like the idea of making casts more like they are in-game, but I feel I have to balance that with the much stronger desire to see PCs have some measure of uniqueness. I don't want to see all high-customization casts become clones. This is another reason why I am against universal storebought damage magic. So instead I follow my own guidelines to allow a slightly larger number of non-unique abilities to reflect -more- of in-game performance without completely straying from the idea of reflecting a character's individual prowess. You can easily argue that Diablos' skillset is no more related to Squall than Quistis, but I personally find his innate compatibility with it to be unique enough to reflect 'Squall'. Similarly, I would argue that the Bolt materia is no more indicative of what makes Cloud 'Cloud' than Vincent 'Vincent', but I find the fact that he starts with one to be unique enough to allow it to him.
Anyway, more on-subject, I wouldn't have a problem with people interpreting casts this way if they so choose... after all, there are people who do the opposite and disallow things like Defend abilities or Starting Equips or Status Blockers. There's tons of interps. I'm personally a little annoyed that this idea is being presented as if everybody is supposed to start viewing things this way, to the point that the ones promoting the idea are requesting that the stat topic-makers update their stat topics. I'm all for more information in the stat topics to reflect more views, but it upset me that Snow basically said 'If you want to have a new view, make your own 80+ stat topics', but for this view, it's the stat topic-makers that are supposed to jump on command.
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Snow basically said 'If you want to have a new view, make your own 80+ stat topics', but for this view, it's the stat topic-makers that are supposed to jump on command.
It hardly even goes anywhere as far as that. In theory, to properly implement that view with all the ramifications and average changes this provides, you'd pretty much end up having to basically build up your databases from scratch to actually be able to properly vote that way instead of handwaving (handwaving -does- happen, it's hardly an issue in and out of itself in smaller doses. However, this is a sort of interp that basically seeps through the majority of the games in the DL. It starts getting difficult to even have enough of an intuitive handle on it to even justify), yes. In practice, though, it's more likely that you'll just end up getting yourself mixed up on your own ruleset and more or less lose sight of what you were trying to accomplish with the line of thought you began.
And there's one tangent that bothers me within the plot boundaries you began setting. The same way you're arguing for creating arbitrary uniqueness lines for characters, you argued to -remove- uniqueness lines with inarguable gameplay backing and even strong plot backup – glaringly, the P3-4 main cases, where you tried to find a way to disallow him the vast majority of his persona -and- his unique ability to actually have multiple personas and swap them mid-battle - both of which not only are unique to him gameplay-wise, but are unique to the mains plot-wise and get sufficient hype that way. The plot hype, I honestly could care less about personally, but given how you -do- care about it, yet you went out of your way to twist it into yanking away an ironclad, unique gameplay distinction that makes the character stand out as a PC - one that has an actually sensible plot claim to boot, I have to ask. -Where- do you set your boundaries? -How well- do you keep track of them? I see a lot of your efforts, and some of them (particularly FF8) are fairly thorough. However, on average, it just looks like you're biting more than you can chew and trampling yourself over and having to backpedal constantly over your own interpretation lines even when you have the data. It somewhat reminds me of back when you were arguing giving squads to Soul Nomad PCs.
I've been noticing hiccups, inconsistencies and holes throughout the way you try to adapt all your tenets - and this is a sign that the very interps you set, at a minimum, overwhelm you. When that happens to a person, at best, this means he/she won't ever really be able to defend those views. At this point, I'm just noticing that you haven't accomplished much other than confusing yourself, and I'm not even sure what kind of reflection are you trying to accomplish. It isn't really of the characters themselves. Due to how many hoops those claims have to go through, it ends up not really being a reflection of the game either. The only thing it reflects is that you want to justify your leniency in some way, which honestly isn't -even necessary-, if you want to give people stuff, just give people stuff - it's even far easier to handwave if you just hand them over indiscriminately and causes much less migraines and interp errors. If you manage to accomplish nothing of what you wanted originally with this and there was no need for it to begin with, then why go through this excruciating labor? This is just some food for thought. Sometimes, the justification can be far worse than the deed itself.
And I honestly don't even feel much in the way of the particular interp that was supposed to be the topic's point. I do like it in a vacuum, but may end up too lazy to think about it, and there are a few things in it I dislike to boot - like the bizarre DL balance shift it clasps into Suikoden games. I'm not even arguing for it. I'm just bluntly pointing out that you made a system basically tailormade to outsmart yourself with in practice.
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It hardly even goes anywhere as far as that. In theory, to properly implement that view with all the ramifications and average changes this provides, you'd pretty much end up having to basically build up your databases from scratch to actually be able to properly vote that way instead of handwaving (handwaving -does- happen, it's hardly an issue in and out of itself in smaller doses. However, this is a sort of interp that basically seeps through the majority of the games in the DL. It starts getting difficult to even have enough of an intuitive handle on it to even justify), yes. In practice, though, it's more likely that you'll just end up getting yourself mixed up on your own ruleset and more or less lose sight of what you were trying to accomplish with the line of thought you began.
Right. I'll just stop thinking for myself and go with everyone else cause it's easier. That really doesn't sit well with me. I appreciate (?) that you want to save me some work, but I like having the opportunity to present another interp that's more in-line with what I would allow.
And there's one tangent that bothers me within the plot boundaries you began setting. The same way you're arguing for creating arbitrary uniqueness lines for characters, you argued to -remove- uniqueness lines with inarguable gameplay backing and even strong plot backup – glaringly, the P3-4 main cases.
Note that this is the only case of this. Note that I don't follow this anymore and at the time I was just being contrary because I didn't like how overpowered Souji and Minato were. I'll try never to make a mistake again.
I have to ask. -Where- do you set your boundaries? -How well- do you keep track of them? I see a lot of your efforts, and some of them (particularly FF8) are fairly thorough. However, on average, it just looks like you're biting more than you can chew and trampling yourself over and having to backpedal constantly over your own interpretation lines even when you have the data. It somewhat reminds me of back when you were arguing giving squads to Soul Nomad PCs.
I -am- biting off quite a lot. It happens. You're pretty much repeating yourself over and over. I don't really see how this connects to the Soul Nomad thing. If I have to explain that again, I will. Soul Nomad units are pretty limited in what they can do. However, it's a squad game. The squads move as a single entity, attack as a single entity, and gains boosts as a single entity. The Leader is the determining factor of the squad's abilities in every way, with the other units acting solely as stat-boosting entities that also give "MP" to the Leader's skills if they are of a certain type as well... they aren't that different from equipment in this sense. I don't why it's so hard to understand how I could have -possibly- come to such a conclusion. But... before I made the stat topic, I made the choice to discuss on the boards first. The idea was deemed unpopular and frankly I wanted to contribute something that would be useful to the majority of the DL with that stat topic, so I took the suggestions of the posters.
I've been noticing hiccups, inconsistencies and holes throughout the way you try to adapt all your tenets - and this is a sign that the very interps you set, at a minimum, overwhelm you. When that happens to a person, at best, this means he/she won't ever really be able to defend those views. At this point, I'm just noticing that you haven't accomplished much other than confusing yourself, and I'm not even sure what kind of reflection are you trying to accomplish. It isn't really of the characters themselves. Due to how many hoops those claims have to go through, it ends up not really being a reflection of the game either. The only thing it reflects is that you want to justify your leniency in some way, which honestly isn't -even necessary-, if you want to give people stuff, just give people stuff - it's even far easier to handwave if you just hand them over indiscriminately and causes much less migraines and interp errors. If you manage to accomplish nothing of what you wanted originally with this and there was no need for it to begin with, then why go through this excruciating labor? This is just some food for thought. Sometimes, the justification can be far worse than the deed itself.
It's a work-in-progress to be sure, but I'm interpreting things consistently with this methodology. It's a lot of work simply because it's -new- work. The original stat topics were/are a lot of work, too, but they had the benefit of a lot of people working on different ones.
Randomly handing out stuff doesn't accomplish anything of what I wanted, which is to solve the balancing act between 'reflecting in-game performance' and 'reflecting a character's uniqueness'... Having the justification means that what I'm working on might actually be useful to someone else too if they're more lenient with plotclaims than the majority. If I don't have the justification, then you're right, there's no sense in doing any work. I'll just be like OK. Vote based on cuteness.
And I honestly don't even feel much in the way of the particular interp that was supposed to be the topic's point. I do like it in a vacuum, but may end up too lazy to think about it, and there are a few things in it I dislike to boot - like the bizarre DL balance shift it clasps into Suikoden games. I'm not even arguing for it. I'm just bluntly pointing out that you made a system basically tailormade to outsmart yourself with in practice.
*shrugs* Nobody cares to discuss new views anymore because it's too much work, because nobody's interested unless the work is done for them. . I'm actually taking the time to -do- some of the work and try to discuss alternate ideas, but now I'm just told to stop because I'm not doing -enough- or because it's easier to just not care and give things out randomly... How does this sit well with -any- of you?
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About FF8, because I am far too lazy to read the rest at 6 am when I am supposed to be reading a paper for school:
Well, the problem doesn't end at giving the FF8 chars GFs. In fact, I feel like the system I devised was okay (give them all low-level GFs based on starting order, the highest being Pandemona) but I quickly realized that, no, just giving them GFs just lowers the relative damage of their super-attacks. The bigger issue to me, besides distributing GFs based on an affinity stat that anyone would wanted to vote based on would have to FAQ because no one actually knows it, is that even if I allowed GFs, I would have much bigger problem allowing magic because it's non-unique AND kind of a pain in the ass to get AND is completely dependent on a level of Junction twinking that only crazy people do.
I am actually one of FF8's biggest fans in the DL (despite not really loving it) but it's really hard for me to conjure a way that I think is representative of the cast because there isn't one. Allowing magic in FF6, FF7, FF8 just makes them mostly dependent on one stat. (Which is indicative on in-game, which incidentally is one of the reasons I dislike FF6 and FF7...)
I am actually fine with giving CC characters things within their own elements even if it doesn't have gameplay backing (as pointed out by others) because at least it sets a firm line that all players can see to what is allowed and why it is allowed. GS sounds similar, not that I've played that. WA5 sounds like a clusterfuck, haven't played that either.
I think Snow is being closed-minded, I disagree with things being said in the topic but I appreciate the deviation from status quo. That is all I have to say on that side of the debate.
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I'm not going to get into the Djinn interp further - just going to agree to disagree there. I am probably being closed-minded, as Ciato says, but eh.
But I've been actually mulling the storebought magic system over a bit overnight and the more I think about it, the less I like it. The posterboy of my issues with this system is primarily the Suikoden series – it creates a mostly single-stat dependence that, in at least Suikoden 2 and 5, -didn't even exist in practice-. In S1, I guess that everybody wanted to be a mage due to how badly the balance failed, but it nags me that just about every character would see an improvement over what they have now and many of them don't even deserve it because they were awful with magic to begin with (some of them getting bigger relative improvements than a few dedicated mages. I suspect Krin could end up as about as good a mage dueller as S1 Luc in spite of the huge Magic split because one gets access to Lightning Rune and the other doesn't, even though, even with the locked rune limitation, Luc is a better mage in-game, for instance). Then, you get cases like Mizuki, who becomes a primarily attack mage with a physical backup for heal-locking when what really made her great in-game was the fact she could be the second-best physical fighter, with potential free offense that ousted even most high-level magic (I guess she -does- make a competent enough mage, 120 Magic at endgame, but was that an optimal setup for her? It is in the DL now with this). And the vast majority of the entire Suikoden series but maybe 3 and a few people in 5 wants that Lightning Rune.
Cases like FF6 are even fairly good on that balance, because the people with shitty magic don't benefit from it besides getting an alternate damage type, but it starts getting odd with a whole series, say, turning into primarily a bunch of attack mages and ousting the other side of the offense spectrum almost entirely (it's possible even the likes of Valeria would want to be a mage rather than a fighter - and that wasn't true to S2, for instance. S1, Valeria just didn't have a choice, and she'd likely be devalued by this in a DL sense). It ends up meaning that, to me, the stat uniqueness isn't enough to make up for the other splits this creates. Of course, the DL already creates splits on the other way (S2 Rina makes a great physical fighter in-game, notably better than what she does as a mage! Yet, she's a mage in the DL. Miakis is S5's best straight physical fighter in-game! Turns into an unimpressive healer/fighter mezzo in the DL), but the swap in dynamics brought by this seems to create a split that's even bigger, and highlights what I really wished to do at times: simply giving the characters full access to their wealth of twinking options and working from there. But I've yet to find a way to -do- this that satisfies me, because I like uniqueness more than the twinking potential – which is maybe what Djinn is trying to strike here. But I honestly don't see striking that balance to a point I'm satisfied with as possible within the very idea of the duelling conundrum. Maybe I'm just too harsh on that.
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And Snow's last point there is why I'm going to be determining whether or not to allow universal magic on a game-by-game basis. In FF7, it makes characters more like their in-game forms! In, say, a Suikoden, it makes everyone rely on magic. In some games, magic is just too powerful to be universal, and I won't be allowing those.
As it goes, I'm on the fence about FF8 GFs, since the claims are still really weak, and FF6 magic... I'll probably be allowing the bare minimum there. S4, no storebought runes. Lightning Rune is too good to be universal.
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Sidenote: in the case of Golden Sun, the working theory wasn't so much "djinn of their element, it is easy and sensible and makes them not suck". Due to the way GS handles skills and classing, the initial levels in an element for each character combined with piling all their own element Djinn on them leads to each character getting a unique class with... one or two unique skills, is my memory? But the unique class thing was what stuck with people. It's possible there's other unique class/skill combos within the system (I don't know really, but it seems likely), but since only a handful of people played the game (and none of them really care about it), the whole "thoroughly explore alternative setups" movement never touched on them.
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Sidenote: in the case of Golden Sun, the working theory wasn't so much "djinn of their element, it is easy and sensible and makes them not suck". Due to the way GS handles skills and classing, the initial levels in an element for each character combined with piling all their own element Djinn on them leads to each character getting a unique class with... one or two unique skills, is my memory? But the unique class thing was what stuck with people. It's possible there's other unique class/skill combos within the system (I don't know really, but it seems likely), but since only a handful of people played the game (and none of them really care about it), the whole "thoroughly explore alternative setups" movement never touched on them.
Yeah, basically. All classes in the game are shared by 2 PCs at least, IIRC (typically Isaac and Garet share classes, Mia and Ivan share classes), but if you give all Mediums of a single element to that respective character, it gives them a unique class. Golden Sun 2 was the same way, just with double the Djinns, which means there's an argument over who gets what for characters like Felix vs. Isaac (note that even in GS2, some unique classes exist. Both Fire and Water Adepts get different classes, IIRC, since they basically swapped roles in GS2, so your Water Adept was the Tank Fighter and your Fire Adept was the Mage, where as Garet and Mia were the other way around), though, there's an easy tie breaker I applied in my stat topic:
GS2 characters get all Djinn before the GS1 cast arrives. GS1 cast gets all the mediums they come with; technically a transfer data thing, but its more a balance purpose thing, and then gets the next 4 mediums (one for each element) that not only appear til after the GS1 cast appears, but requires map abilities that the GS1 cast brings along with them, so yeah. Anything after is kind of illegal, but I think they have enough Djinn to access their new ultimate classes, so its just "minor stat boosts" here, and one less unleash.
FF8...is probably the single worst game to give a character one thing but not others. True, WA5 characters suffer by Carol getting Luck, for example...but that's really no different than Carol just getting an extra awesome accessory; she gets significant stat boosts to 2 stats, and that's it stat wise, and some indirect abilities that help her independent dueling style, while doing little to the cast as a whole (don't think her damage is helped TOO much. Life Drain may do more, but its not as big a jump as, say, Greg's Hi Crush.)
FF8? Give Squall GFs only and...oh shit, now his stats sky rocket to hell, and he becomes a OHKO machine with like 3x the durability of everyone else ON HP ALONE.
FF8 played under the assumption that everyone would have at least one GF. The game hands you two before your first mission, and right before you get your first 3 man party, you get your 3rd GF; from here on in, you're never caught in a scenario where you have PCs without junctions, one exception is the final battle due to the nature of how its structured.
Now, look at FF7. Cloud getting Lightning/Ice Materia means...nothing other than his damage will never drop below a certain point, and now he can do stuff to people like Kimhari (limits accepted). Red XIII's Fire is just an extra damage type for him to get, one which hurts his main damage too I should note. Yuffie's...is almost completely pointless, and Cait Sith gains a status. It does little to effect the other 5 PCs, just arbitrary advantages that help their dueling style to varying degrees (Cait SIth's is a huge boon, for example, Yuffie's not so much.)
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Now, FF6plot claims that are remotely reasonable. I'm not suggesting people allow these, just tossing them out since they were brought up. Note some of these are incredible stretches, and I am not trying to make any reasonable claim about them.
Terra:
Ramuh (rescued her, watched over her before your team joined, etc.)
Tritoch (The entire early game nonsense)
Maduin (most obvious one)
Fenrir (dropped by Phunbaba, thus related to the Mobliz stuff)
Odin/Raiden (TERRA GETS A UNIQUE LINE OF DIALOG IN THIS DUNGEON IF SHE READS THE QUEEN'S DIARY!!!)
And based off Dissidia, you could argue Phoenix, cause her Crystal is a Red Magicite which has a big bird that resembles a phoenix on it!!!1 Interestingly, Phoenix is one of the Magicite that is most like Terra's current natural magic set, meaning she gains so very little from it, so really, this point is almost completely useless (idly, Terra does naturally learn all spells from Ifrit and Ragnarok! no, don't know why I brought this up...)
Locke:
Phoenix (self explanatory)
Ragnarok (Required to get the darn thing)
Celes:
Palidoor (on Solitary Island; this is the closest we'll get to a "place of residence" for Celes, unless you count the factory, and by that logic, Terra should have access to all Espers there too...)
Mog:
Ramuh (is the one who taught him how to talk, and told him to join the party, apparently.)
Terrato (Terrato belongs to Umaro, who can't use it, so clearly, Mog deserves the damn thing.)
Cyan:
Alexander (Found in Doma, but only after his Dream sequence...you can actually see the Magicite in the Throne Room after Wrexsoul is defeated oddly; probably has to do with some trigger nonsense or it was the game's way of going "HINT: CHECK THE THRONE ROOM AFTER THIS SCENE!")
Relm:
Starlet (Chardanook nonsense)
Setzer:
Bahamut (HUGE STRETCH. Doom Gaze is fought on the Airship only. Airship = Setzer, thereby, Setzer gains this!)
Shadow:
Gilgamesh (FF6a only; he's fought in the Colosseum, thus belongs to Shadow!!1!!)
Like I said, a lot of these are stretches and not really reasonable at all, just tossing them out there.
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On the topic at hand, what Snow said was exactly what I was thinking and was too lazy to try and coherently put into words. For more detail, look at Suikoden games. Those rune slots that magic runes go in? Physical fighters can use those SAME RUNE SLOTS to boost their physicals. If you just allow storebought magic, then only the mages get the benefit of those slots, while fighters just get some magic that doesn't suit them well. Hell, they may even end up mages in the end because their magic may beat out an untwinked physical. That's not the only example of this but it is perhaps the biggest and most relevant one.
I mean, I kinda like the idea in theory as well, but in practice it just shifts things way too far to the other end.
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To be fair, usually the good physical runes aren't storebought (or cost too much to reasonably give to a large number of people) so that's a pretty traditional screwing in the DL right there.
I agree that I don't really like the rule's effect on Suikoden. And given just how many Suikodeners there are (compared to relatively few CC mages and Relms) that's a significant strike against.
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I've actually been toying today with the idea of allowing the primary fighters typical physical twinking runes that are reasonably obtainable in a decent amount of numbers with some effort and giving the dedicated mages spellcasting runes (in the case of S2, I'd allow Double-Beats, since they come from a really common earlygame enemy. Dunno if I'd allow Fury Runes, although they're storebought as a rarity in Matilda, but if I allowed Mother Earths and Cyclones, which are storebought in Gregminster the same way, I'd allow those). What I dislike here is, obviously, the typical question when every thing in this spectrum arises: why am I arbitrarily gunning them away from the other side other than what I deem appropriate as a mage setup or a fighter setup? Which goes back to the same vicious circle.
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I really don't think even Double-Beats are remotely comparable with, say, a Fire Rune. It is a legit advantage of mages over fighters that the latter is about 100x easier to get.
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That's -yet- another strike against the idea, yes. Not to mention that Double-Beats don't even beat Fire Rune L4s at C affinity, but that's to be expected given the sharp split towards magic present in the first two Suikos. Even with physical twinking allowed, the physical fighters would largely want to be mages instead. Except in Suikoden 5 maybe.
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Thanks Snow~
That's just it Djinn. That's the point. Aeris' claim to that material is just as serious/substantial as any one of those claims that you use for anyone else and that I believe is one of the things that Snow was trying to point out to you.
Aeris - It's in her tank, you're fighting the boss to rescue/take her to safety, you're in the Shinra building to rescue/rerecruit her, she has a high magic stat to go with it
Relm - She's painting the picture/she's in front of the picture, you're in that dude's house to rerecruit her
Counter points? People have already done it for Aeris (but you know what I'd still allow it with all the stuff other you allow because Aeris has much right to use them as the rest of them do "it's significantly related to X character" etc so i.e what you believe in or none) Relm? She isn't even in that dude's house if you don't wait for Shadow (and really is every newb going to have the foresight to know what will happen to Shadow if you don't wait?) - and it's not just Relm. It could be anyone. NEB touched on Locke, etc. Snow pretty much covered everything I was trying to say.
Disclaimer - Please do not take this post personally/to heart. I'm just trying to explain where people are coming from~
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Well, the only reason to go to Owzer's house is to recruit Relm, so it's -her- sidequest. Rescuing Aeris is just part of the plot. It's non-optional.
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Well, the only reason to go to Owzer's house is to recruit Relm, so it's -her- sidequest. Rescuing Aeris is just part of the plot. It's non-optional.
I sorta can't see how the fact that Aeris' rescue being obligatory makes the plot claim weaker, which you seem to be implying. If nothing else, being non-optional tends to give plot claims a bit more clout rather than the opposite.
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No, I'm with Djinn on this one. You only get that for Relm - if you don't want Relm in your party, you don't get that Esper, simple as that. As for Aeris, even if you don't intend to use her, you have to go through that area.
Put simply, Relm's is optional and solely for Relm, while Aeris' is plot-induced and so not solely about Aeris.
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Like I said it's not just Relm, it's any character. One half could argue all day on why X character shouldn't be allowed X while the other vehemently defends their reasons until the end of time. I could continue to nitpick at why Aerith's reason shouldn't be less than Relm's or vice verca but that's not the point. You cannot justify this.
I am willing to swing with the masses on this and will ditch Enemy Skills in favour of storebought magics though. However if that falls through I am willing to fall back on Enemy Skills for Cloud, Red and Aerith regardless if it makes sense or not. It makes sense to me just as any much as character allowed whatever on that list >_> (and no offence Djinn it was the Enemy Skills materia being in Aerith's tank that made me think of your kind of stuff <_<)
Well I've said my piece (and said my piece again <_<) and I'm not going to say anymore on it!~
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It's not just Relm, no, but Relm is a good example of the difference. One is a character-specific quest, the other is part of the plot. If it's part of the plot, I see it needing more of a link to the character than if it's part of a specific quest, which Enemy Skill doesn't have.
I'm still mostly undecided on plotclaims, but I'm leaning to a case-by-case basis for allowing shopbought spells. At the moment, it's yes to FF7, no to S4, and... I'll consider the others when the next come up. >.>
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The plot claim with Relm is basically this...
Relm was taken to Owzer's House cause Owzer found Starlet and he wanted a painting of it specifically cause he felt she deserved a work of art. Relm was the only artist he found that could draw her well enough to do her justice, and so she did; Chardanook possesses the painting of Starlet and yeah; its kind of vague as to why Relm doesn't help out in fighting Chardanook, unless we're just to assume that Relm painting is the only thing that can allow Chadarnook to reveal his true colors from time to time, rather than hide in the painting.
He does hand your team Starlet, though, your team getting Starlet is the exact trigger than recruits Relm as well (as soon as you take it, Relm says "I have to go, but I'll return!")
Basically, you can't get Relm w/out getting Starlet. Its flat out impossible. And the two are linked in plot for their recruitment other than "Happen to be in the same arc." Relm's scenario was directly caused by Owser finding Starlet to begin with, and that's why she was there.
That's a stronger plot claim than "Happens to be in the same tank as another PC" if you ask me. It being optional has little to do with anything...actually, I think that makes the claim stronger in THIS case, cause it means you can't get one without the other, so if you want Relm to appear in the game's ending, you need Starlet in your inventory.
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I am willing to swing with the masses on this and will ditch Enemy Skills in favour of storebought magics though. However if that falls through I am willing to fall back on Enemy Skills for Cloud, Red and Aerith regardless if it makes sense or not. It makes sense to me just as any much as character allowed whatever on that list >_> (and no offence Djinn it was the Enemy Skills materia being in Aerith's tank that made me think of your kind of stuff <_<)
So in other words, you are going to adopt a view that benefits a character you like, regardless of how much sense it makes?
To quote Llewelyn "What could I possibly say? There are no words."
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Exactly. These things cannot be justified~
Relm is one of my favourite characters too =-)
Edit: I can try to justify it "character X gets X because of" and because if I do allow the character it I believe the reasoning, in this case people came up for reasoning both for allowing and disallowing Aerith the materia. The entire point is that a bunch of reasons can be brought up for and against every character when it comes to "plot claims"/we. What I was and am trying to say is that I believe those reasons are as valid as those for the other characters, Relm, Locke, FF8 PCs with GFs, what have you. Like I already said I don't have a problem with the way Djinn votes or his ideas - it makes sense and it makes the character more interesting/unique as a dueller for all the characters he's ever mentioned in the past, the present and even to come although of course nothing's set in stone. I believe this applies as much to Aerith too *shrugs* but at the end of the day what does that come down to? It makes the character more interesting/unique as a dueller? Of course someone who likes the character is also going to like this (and even if they don't *and* like the idea of a dueller being more interesting they may come to) I see no point in denying this >.>
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and yet, I'm able to take a rational stance on my fan favorites <_< >_>
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I think to CT, her stance is rational and logical as well. 'Correct' is something unique for every individual, right? So if CT feels it is sensible to grant those three E. Skill and remarks she doesn't care if it makes sense to anyone else, I think it'd be unfair to say that that is 'wrong'.
As well, I have difficulty seeing you have any rational stance, Meeplelogic.
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Thank you Bard~
Edited my post and explained that more. Or tried too >_>
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My own thoughts on this:
Games affected by what Djinn's talking about:
CC
FF1 (Arguble for other reasons, bit of a headache and this one I'm putting to the side for the moment)
FF6
FF7
FF8 (Has other legality problems even if you see refined spells as legal)
G1 (Kind of)
Pokemon- Don't know well enough to comment.
Suikoden 1-5
Saga Frontier
SO3 (I think)
VP1
I am ignoring FF1/8 for this. SO3 I can't vote on.
Does it increase uniqueness? Does it match in game? Does it make consistent sense? Is it easy to vote on and makes logical sense with the rest of the rules?
CC- Fighters get relatively worse, mages get relatively better. Limited grid does hurt some here. I tried to vote on this a while, and was not impressed. It doesn't reward good magic, it rewards being the right DL element. Blah. CC is not really a DL friendly game regardless, no elemental/status blocking being legal and severe resource issues do that.
FF1- Makes Red Wizard better, makes Knight/Ninja a little worse (Ninja has a fair claim to Fast anyway, BW doesn't need it)? It's pretty minor either way.
FF6- Relm better, Sabin worse. I'm sure I'm forgetting somet hings, but I don't think the changes are massive besides for Relm. FF6 translates fairly well on the whole DL wise, since equips/skillsets come through more than anything else.
FF7- Aeris gets better, a few PC's get worse (Cloud/Yuffie/Cid/Red take a major damage hit relatively).
G1- Justin gets a little better, the rest get a little more damage in a three turn average.
Suikoden 1-5- A mess due to the runes work.
Lufia 2- Lexis gets better, Maxim gets a little better, Artea/Dekar get a little worse. Not major changes overall.
Saga Frontier- No gifts are really DL legal, so doesn't matter. Humans is not unique.
VP1- Doesn't matter to me, minor changes.
This is a pretty minor changes. I don't think doing this will increase either uniqueness or suddenly 'unscrew' characters. It does however create headaches- what about suikoden characters who have high scores in water magic, do they just get BoI spam?!?!
I don't think you can accurately reflect the changes that would need to be made for this to make sense without allowing a freer hand with storebought/easily gettable magic, and all that does is overpower several casts without solving the problem or sticking to rules/any feeling of uniqueness. Any idea that creates a massive headache for one seventh of the DL (Roughly how much Suikoden we have ranked) is blah to start with.
Yeah, I definitely don't like this particular idea.
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CC- Fighters get relatively worse, mages get relatively better. Limited grid does hurt some here. I tried to vote on this a while, and was not impressed. It doesn't reward good magic, it rewards being the right DL element. Blah. CC is not really a DL friendly game regardless, no elemental/status blocking being legal and severe resource issues do that.
You mean...it rewards being the right DL element because of elemental resistances the other fighters have? Magic spells are evenly spaced damage wise except for Black, and the status side effects...well, the best status side is borderline turn 4 (And that's assuming you don't throw it out). And...well, see the change that Riddel gets. That's definetely rewarding a good magic score, given that her relative DL damage over doubles.
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Red got a 100% confusion and black got 50/50 ID. There's also the Negates.
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Hmm, I may have underrated the effect of CC confuse in the DL, but at the same time, it's about the worst confusion effect you are going to see. Black's ID I'd throw out for being a pure status spell (And I could certainly see ignoring the status side effects of the elements). The Negates similarly are not damage spells, and would get tossed. So basically the issues are negated by just looking at damage purely.
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My own thoughts on this:
Games affected by what Djinn's talking about:
Yeah, I definitely don't like this particular idea.
I don't see how what you're talking about has to do with my views at all? Are you talking about how I allow storebought magic only to the correct affinity? It's pretty inconsistent.
Exactly. These things cannot be justified~
I can try to justify it "character X gets X because of" and because if I do allow the character it I believe the reasoning, in this case people came up for reasoning both for allowing and disallowing Aerith the materia. The entire point is that a bunch of reasons can be brought up for and against every character when it comes to "plot claims"/we. What I was and am trying to say is that I believe those reasons are as valid as those for the other characters, Relm, Locke, FF8 PCs with GFs, what have you. Like I already said I don't have a problem with the way Djinn votes or his ideas - it makes sense and it makes the character more interesting/unique as a dueller for all the characters he's ever mentioned in the past, the present and even to come although of course nothing's set in stone. I believe this applies as much to Aerith too *shrugs* but at the end of the day what does that come down to? It makes the character more interesting/unique as a dueller? Of course someone who likes the character is also going to like this (and even if they don't *and* like the idea of a dueller being more interesting they may come to) I see no point in denying this >.>
I try to be generous about what I give out, especially in cases like FF8/WA5 where they don't get even their most basic skillset without their equips. However, I value consistency in my interps. It's why I have a set of guidelines. Aeris/E.Skill does not follow that set of guidelines. That's all there is to it. It's because I feel that these sorts of things -can- be justified that I follow this interp that incorporates my generosity. Sometimes it works well for people, and sometimes Aeris doesn't get an E.Skill materia.
I -do- agree that you can hold your own views. If you wish to make a set of guidelines that says 'being next to the materia in a plot scene' qualifies as a strong plot claim, that's fine. Stick to it. I'll support you. I won't vote that way because I don't agree on such a tenuous claim, but I'll do what I can to help.
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There has been some serious discussion recently about allowing storebought (or easily given to any PC) damage magic for casts in the DL. This applies only to damage magic, not healing, status-infliction, buffing, or other such effect spells. The reasons behind this are multifold but mostly it represents the in-game damage scales better and allows good mages to properly shine. Some other benefits include single elemental resists coming up less often due to more damage variety and less arbitrary inflation for some casts.
I figured we could use a topic to discuss some of the points of this and what casts it effects. A listing of the casts potentially effected would be...
Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy 6, Final Fantasy 7, Final Fantasy 8 (?), Grandia 1, Lufia 2, Mana Khemia, Pokemon, Every single last Suikoden, Saga Frontier, Valkyrie Profile, and Wild Arms 5.
Some of the biggest winners of this interp are runeless suikoden mages, Aeris, Tia, some (unranked) water type Pokemon, Relm, and others. As a result of this a lot of damage averages go up slightly so that would hurt a lot of fighters and mages with non-storebought/initial magic a little bit. It would be a good idea to collect numbers for in the future.
So feel free to post thoughts on this system and what the effects are. For example what magic should be allowed and who it makes better and by how much. This is NOT a discussion for what you think is allowed under some kind of plot claim/gameplay claim system (ala the recent GF posts or various specific materia/esper setups and so on). Please limit this to the relevant storebought/easily obtainable for all users damage magic. Note again that this is only damage magic, not status.
I second the damage bought magic, as long as the final attack + knights of the round and similar spells are banned that is.
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Thanks Djinn.
I'm still with Pyro, NEB, etc on this and am willing to support with stat topics. I have a suitable LoD file to work with so I can whip something up with that. Though Snow's covered why it doesn't make much difference for LoD I'm still interested in exact numbers and a list of figures for comparisions between the characters. It'll be interesting to see just how much difference there really is between Miranda/Meru's Psyche Bomb X and Kongol's >.>
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A little late to this party, but I have a question re: A game that I'm never going to play:
Storebought Suikoden Runes: Do they start with all of their respective skills?
Or do they only have a starting skill and others learned over time, ala FF7 Materia?
(As a point of fact, I would be in favor of allowing any FF7 PC any storebought materia at 0 AP. (Aeris would only have storeboughts as of Temple of Ancients. Also, some game-breaking exceptions may apply, i.e. that mega-spell Materia you get in Mideel if it's storebought. Also, probably would not allow most "Independent" Materia (Purple), no Summons are Storebought, and the only "Support" (Blue) Materia that is storebought is "All", IIRC.) Currently allowed Materia would be allowed at full strength. Of course, most Materia have Stat changes that balance their use; the stat changes would have to be documented...)
If Suiko runes are like Materia in the aspect that you have to gain AP to unlock skills, we could limit storebought runes to their base level. If not... well...
Quick Note Regarding Pokemon: Allowing Surf would give Water Starters an attack for longer fights with the same equivalent damage. (Most healers can outlast Hydro Pump's clip of 5 attacks.) Allowing Strength gives Pikachu an actual Physical Damage option which would not only not have Thunderbolt's Stab+Light Ball's SAtk Bonus, but also loses First Strike (vs QA)
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Suikoden magic runes allow access to -all- abilities contained in a rune provided the user has enough INT/MP to cast it. No AP-building required.
For Materia, this topic was only discussing the possibility of allowing -damage- magic. So anything like Purple/Blue materia isn't even considered. Hell, most Green Materia aren't even being considered here due to having non-damage effects (Restore, Transform, etc.) .
Pokemon: Huh. Yeah, I guess the HMs count as far as 'easily obtainable' goes. Surf is obviously part of this. Strength is one I hadn't thought about, since it's not magical... but I guess it makes sense to allow it to Pikachu so that it gets a basic -physical-... >.>;;
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I allow Grandia Mana Eggs since there are enough to go around even for Sue and each egg does not give the same abilites to others. I allow Asellus Mystic magic since she starts with the gift for it, but no spells. (not that it really makes a difference)
FF1 I allow all storebought magic.
All others games are no's. Except Artea in Lufia 2 gets Zap since he is the only one that can buy it.