The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Sei on February 23, 2008, 06:01:34 AM
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...won't be starting until approximately 8 hours after I post this, but here's the weekly topic!
Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4)
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1)
Berle (SO2) vs. Kratos Aurion (ToS)
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX)
Heavy
1-Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP)
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias)
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7)
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. 4-Yuber (S3)
Middle
1-Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3)
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2)
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3)
Lute (FE8) vs. 3-Bebedora (AtL4)
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC)
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG)
Dahna (G3) vs. 3-Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
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Godlike
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1)
Tempted to vote Jade just because I know damn well he slaughters her under my interps, but eh. Silly rules.
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX)
Call Team? What Call Team?
Heavy
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias)
Heavy freaking rules this season.
Middle
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2)
Yeaaaah.
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC)
Goes first, buffs? I suppose.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2)
Uh yeah.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG)
DEALS DAMAGE.
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4) - My kneejerk is that Ted is faster pretty much every way I try to slice it, which means Ryu just kinda explodes into itty tiny bits. And the first person to hype naked Ryu speed meets a high-speed wall to the head. ^_^
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - Uh, this is a great match. Will wait for arguments of other people, though, since I'd rather not have to crunch through this whole match. =P
Heavy
1-Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP) - This match fails.
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias) - Please don't force me to vote on this. ;_;
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7) - Hojo is hilariously bad when bereft of Sleep.
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. Yuber - Uh, weird match. I'm assuming Yuber can keep a heal-lock with the threat of physical+Eight Devil, and that his speed keeps up enough. Could be wrong, but it feels like what he needs.
Middle
Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3) - Easy.
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3) - If nothing else, faster. This match should not be in Middle.
Light
Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC) - Another interesting match. Mia goes first and gets to soften Rude's impact from the get-go. However, her non-Flameria damage is so awful that Rude might have a shot at outslugging even after two Cryo Walls, which is :psyduck:. I'll kneejerk for the one I consider a better Light, though.
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Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4)- Ted. Hilarity.
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1)- Jade. Celes has about 25% evade to me...she might have an argument if she had some decent healing, but as is her MP solely gets worn down. She really wishes that neutral effects didn't cancel Vanish.
Berle (SO2) vs. Kratos Aurion (ToS)- Berle. HP+Defense+Metaguard let him outlast the not too durable boss Kratos.
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX)- Yuna. Guv may have an argument! Based on AI...
Heavy
1-Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP)- Um, right.
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias)- Gades
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7)- Nina2. Hojo fails that much.
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. 4-Yuber (S3)- This depends on how good Rutee's defense buff is. I should probably check that later.
Middle
1-Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3)- Peter
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2)- Karin
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3)- Bright
Lute (FE8) vs. 3-Bebedora (AtL4)- Lute
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC)- Fucking Rude.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2)- Gepetto
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG)- Ricardo. Kelvena does deal damage! She just needs 2 allies dead!
Dahna (G3) vs. 3-Frank Goldfinger (SH3)- Frank. For all that I allow +2 to all elements helping healing...Sleep Cards+Heal...could that do it? Sleep hits on the turn 2 combo, so the question is how long does it last/does it reset the enemy timer. Wow, there might actually be an argument here.
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Frank got in again? xD He sure does get around.
Godlike -
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1)- Yay
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX)
Middle
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2) - Bah.
Light
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2)
Lu's faster than Gep, maybe even faster than non tranformed Joe as well, has the best strength stat of the mages (wow ;p) and Gep is hellishly fragile with shitty defences anyway but ... but ADVENT!
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4 S1) - Ryu >_>
Berle (SO2) vs. Kratos Aurion (ToS) - Kratos
Heavy
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias) - Barbarossa
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7) - Hojo
Light
Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (LL) - Mia
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Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4)- Judgement. *EYES Twil*
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1)- This match is just hilarious.
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX)- See Shale. Though I'm not sure CT can deal with Shiva if she's playing defensively, let alone the rest.. yeah.
Heavy
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias)- Gades is a Godlike, Barbarossa shouldn't be ranked.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7)- I refuse to believe that Nina2 is beating a physical boss in HEAVY.
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. 4-Yuber (S3)- Same reaction as Snow.
Middle
1-Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3)
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2)- Spoiled horribly.
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3)
Lute (FE8) vs. 3-Bebedora (AtL4)
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC)- With as little as I respect FF7 bosses nowadays.. eh. Mia's non Flameria damage is awful. God this fails.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2)- Yay.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG)
Dahna (G3) vs. 3-Frank Goldfinger (SH3)- Dahna is hilariously inept even if you give her storebought magic or scale her to no SP. Frank goes first and manages a 2HKO.
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4): Welcome to Godlike Te-...wait, right, goes first, OHKOs <_<;
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1): If this was any other boss, it'd be a decent fight, but...no, Jade's durability is too damn high for Celes to kill before Rub kicks in.
Also, Shale, if he slaughters under your interps, why the hell does it matter about OTHER interps <_<?
Berle (SO2) vs. Kratos Aurion (ToS): Berle is actually deserving of this rank, Kratos not so much.
Guv (DQ8) vs. Yuna (FFX): Interesting match, but Yuna's got more Meatshields, and they're stronger, even if she can only summon one at a time.
Heavy
Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP): Lynx wins this with his physicals, pretty sure, based on the form of Klarth I vote on.
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias): Lufia 1 Gades is actually good.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7): Hojo vs. Sleep Immunity, bwahaha!
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. Yuber (S3): IIRC, Rutee wasn't durable, so Yuber can heal lock her with physicals and an 8 Devil Finisher, I wanna say.
Middle
Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3): Queen is completely outmatched here.
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2): Horrible draw for Nash, really.
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3): Suko Monsters > Suiko Lizards, yes, this fight is that sad.
Lute (FE8) vs. Bebedora (AtL4): Lute counters magic, Bebedora doesn't.
Light
Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC): Should live long enough to cast 2 Ice Shells, and she resists his Magic anyway, win with Ice Wall? Eh, suppose that works for now.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2): Gepetto has damage, Lucia does not.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG): Kelvena is horrid.
Dahna (G3) vs. Frank Goldfinger (SH3): Dahna fails.
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Also, Shale, if he slaughters under your interps, why the hell does it matter about OTHER interps <_<?
Because I haven't, technically speaking, played Breath of Fire 1.
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Ah, ok, that makes sense.
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4) - Both OHKO, Ted goes first.
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - FUCK OFF JADE.
Guv (DQ8) vs. Yuna (FFX) - Even without Anima and the Magus Sisters, the Aeons still own Call Team.
Heavy
Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP) - When Lynx SMASH is a viable answer, you know Heavy's full of fail.
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias) - L1 Gades.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7) - Status schmatus. 2HKOs with physical damage.
Middle
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2) - Spoiler draw!
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3) - Faster, stronger, Shiba downgrade imminent.
Light
Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC) - Mia can wall Rude's damage...but then her damage is even worse, thanks to fire absorb. Leaning Rude here.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2) - Light elemental boost. Owned.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG) - Kelvena sucks.
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Um, Chisa. Hojo does something like 5HKO average at best with his highest physical damage. Nina2 is freaking frail, but she is so not frail enough to be 2HKOed by 40% PC HP in physicals.
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I give FF7 an average HP of around 3600 going into this fight. Hojo's combo does about 1400-1500 damage average to a single target. While technically it's multiple hits, I count the combo attack as one action, except with regards to counters, and Nina2 don't counter for shit. Regardless if Hojo's status hits or not, that's a three turn KO on average, and Nina's physical frailty boosts it into the two range. The fact that Nina still has an argument for winning after this is a testimonial to Hojo's failure, but I doubt she can kill him fast enough.
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Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4): Faster. Weeeird. Way to turn the Godlike Welcome on its head, Ted.
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1): Rub. Yeah, no longer see any reason to restrict rarish moves, too arbitrary. He can spam that 3% spell all day!
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX): Better summons. Better without summons. I'd find a vote the other way baffling, here. Anyway, Yojimbo/Shiva owns Call Team for free.
Heavy
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias): Oh fuck this. Barbarossa, probably, even if I'm shaky on his legality. Beats voting for a Puny.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7): Get out of Heavy, Hojo.
Middle
1-Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3): Better slugger.
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2): ;_;
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3): Is actually a Middle.
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC): Ice Shell.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2): 2HKOs due to Advent hitting a weakness. Pathetic.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG): HITS WEAKNESS! Side note, I don't get why one wouldn't let Kelvena attack. Penalising her for the fact that she heals allies when they are alive is silly; that's obviously a (sensible) AI quirk. Unless you really believe her godly water magic damage is a limit.
Dahna (G3) vs. 3-Frank Goldfinger (SH3): Much better slugger.
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Well, Kelvena can only specifically start attacking when 2 allies or dead. If you don't damage her allies, she'll still heal them. Tolone gains an extra move when 1 dies, Kelvena when 2, and Dominia when 3.
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I give FF7 an average HP of around 3600 going into this fight. Hojo's combo does about 1400-1500 damage average to a single target.
3600 average HP at -that- point in the game, Chisa? That's rather low for a point that skirts FF7 endgame. You should have a built up HP Plus materia, and HP Plus materias become storebought by then in Cosmo Canyon, which should bring up the averages a fair deal. Then, there's the issue of all of his forms being frail if you take the formchain (as in, the most durable form may get OHKOed by average damage-level frail), his first form can't even attack and the second form is slower than Nina... um, yeah. He might even 2HKO Nina with Lifeform, but my kneejerk is to think he doesn't get the two turns he needs to do it.
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Why should you have lots of built up HP Plus materias? So you can withstand the GODLY MIGHT OF FF7 DAMAGE and gain limits slower? I mean, damn, I agree with you, but it's reasonable one would only have 3600 HP.
(Also, 3600 shows the signs of some HP Plus use already, just not much.)
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I guess it's just habit. And I didn't say -lots- of built HP Plus, just one. >_> I just tend to assume one built HP Plus + two-L1 HP Pluses are fairly default. Your point on limit still stands, though, I just get a bit sensitive with boss damage inflation. Sorry for the lapse there. <_<;
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In general? HP Plus tends to offset Magic/Summon Materia's work on HP for averages. Typically, you'll have at least one built up HP Plus Materia for insurance on someone; that doesn't seem too farfetched.
This is especially good investment when you load someone up with Summon/Magic Materia, cause they're HP is hit hard, so you want to compensate somehow.
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Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. 4-Yuber (S3): His boss form's damage was more than enough for this, right?
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3): Lolmatch.
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Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4) - Bleh. Ted's plot ID works, I guess. DAMN. >_> Wait, dead Ryu3 is good. Yay Ted!
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - Jade. Go ID. No Minerva arguments either!
Berle (SO2) vs. Kratos Aurion (ToS) - Berle. Kratos...just can't squeeze the hits in.
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX) - Yuna. Even allowing only the optional Aeons, Yojimbo alone sinks it.
Heavy
1-Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP) - Klarth.
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias) - Mmm...interesting. I...think Barby might actually take this.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7) - Hojo.
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. 4-Yuber (S3) - Rutee.
Middle
1-Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3) - Peter.
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2) - Nash. Lunar Legends form is just as fast and has 2-shottable lightning damage! He kills faster! Yay Nash hype!
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3) - ...Bright.
Lute (FE8) vs. 3-Bebedora (AtL4) - ...interesting. Bebedora's draining probably let's her win this.
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC) - Mia.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2) - Gepetto.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG) - Kelvena.
Dahna (G3) vs. 3-Frank Goldfinger (SH3) - Mmm...Dahna. Hits the sleep, heals until SP runs out? At worst, status pounding or Dancing Cards hype might do it?
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Godlike
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1)
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX)
Heavy
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias)
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7)
Middle
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2)
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC)
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2)
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Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. 4-Yuber (S3): His boss form's damage was more than enough for this, right?
His boss form gets OHKOed and can't OHKO back. <_<
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Godlike
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1): God, I hate Jade. Anyway, don't think Celes can wear him down in time.
Heavy
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias): Less of a headache.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7): I view his damage pretty much the same as Chisa does. Also, where's the status-blocking hype coming from for Nina? Because, as always, I don't allow storebought blockers.
Middle
Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3): Better slugger.
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2): Status is out the window, and Nash damage respect is not found.
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3): Bright....actually has something approaching respectable offense, and S3 lizards have trouble hitting a fucking barn.
Light
Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC): My FFVII boss respect is higher than most people's.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2): Actually has offense. That hits a weakness, to boot. Sad match.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG): Goddamned SH3. Stop winning matches! Anyway...even hitting a weakness, Kelvena probably doesn't break Ricardo's regen. Out of morbid curiosity, does SH3 berserk status have any negative effects beyond the confusion?
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Nina2's hype for sleep-blocking is from a storebought accessory, yes.
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Godlike
Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4) - Goes first, Judgement to the face. I think I'll make it a point to start worshipping Ted for this.
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - This is oh-so-funny. Jade doesn't rely on his high damage BoltX, but his miserable 3% ID. And wins.
Berle (SO2) vs. Kratos Aurion (ToS) - Downgrade already.
Guv (DQ8) vs. Yuna (FFX) - I don't allow Call Team. Which doesn't matter.
Heavy
1-Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP) - CC respect not found. Klarth respect, found @_@.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7) - Yup, storebought accessories . ANYTHING'S better than voting for Hojo, really. Especially for a hot Windian.
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. 4-Yuber (S3) - Leaning her for now. Might change if I see a good argument.
Middle
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2) - THIS. IS. SO. WRONG.
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3) - Headache, but Bright >>>>>>>>> Shiba.
Lute (FE8) vs. 3-Bebedora (AtL4) - SPOILT.
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC) - Will come back on this later. Gives me a headache.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2) - Thank you for granting me my wish of Lucia dying horribly. To an old man.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG) - AHAHAHAHA.
Dahna (G3) vs. Frank Goldfinger (SH3) - Frank's back? Woot. Better at nearly everything.
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Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4) - Hate Ted, but still awesome
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - The Jade votes tell me that Jade must be faster? If not I suppose the longest runic/poke match ever could ensue, but yeah...
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX) - AI meatshields > non AI meatshields. That said Aeonless Yuna would have a fun fight against CT also considering her speed and their lack of AI.
Heavy
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias) - 2HKOs
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7) - Hojo 3HKOs and can't status?
Middle
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2) - No status = Fail Nash
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3) - Straight forward
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC) - Rude has no form that doesn't fail
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2) - Awesome
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Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - This is oh-so-funny. Jade doesn't rely on his high damage BoltX, but his miserable 3% ID. And wins.
Berle (SO2) vs. Kratos Aurion (ToS) - Downgrade already.
Is that supposed to be 30% ID? 3% ID means Jade wouldn't kill until the 16-17th turn on average, which would let even Celes kill?
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Jade can physical if she Runics.
Also, I approve of the avatar Muakaka.
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Hrm... Jade is faster as long as you allow all of the speed boosting weapons and such in FF6, which I'm pretty sure everyone does.
And assuming Celes uses magic, since her physical wouldn't actually do that much damage even in that many turns... many people's views of Jade's durability could actually have her running out of MP before killing Jade, since she does just under 5x PCHP with Flare, her best damage assuming she uses all of her MP (it's cheaper than Ice3 and barely less damage).
Anyways, what's Boss Yuber's evasion like? I recall him parrying... a lot of what I threw at him physically. Maybe it's because I insisted on sending Geddoe in with his mercenary team and most of them aren't all that good, but... I guess the bosses are pretty hilariously frail, especially because unlike Sarah he doesn't sit back and spam magic behind his meatshields.
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Oh, boss Yuber is evasive. Just... so is PC Yuber, and Bloody Rose is pretty accurate in ToD terms (i.e. it's really rarely blocked), which means he's probably getting killed by one attack anyway while the PC form doesn't. I just don't really see the point of trying to spin a win for boss Yuber when PC Yuber has a far better shot, really. <_< The WA4 boss-level HP the human S3 bosses sport means they universally want their PC forms, no questions asked.
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Sarah disputes that claim, Snow. her HP doesn't go up enough to make up for how much damage/speed/evade she loses. But of course, Sarah is speshul.
Also, 3600 is pretty reasonable HP for that point in the game... if you're not using any Materia. Still, I tend to figure you use enough HP Plus to cancel out the HP lost from your Materia setup, so it's a fair number.
Oh. And NEB meant 3% chance of casting Rub, unless I'm very mistaken. The odds of hitting are in the 50% range.
... hell, why not.
Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4)
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1)
Berle (SO2) vs. Kratos Aurion (ToS)
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX)
Heavy
1-Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP)- Eh, I'll buy a OHKO.
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias)
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7)- ... BoFII? In a close slugging contest? How often does this happen. Um, gut is that they kill in about the same amount of time (2/3HKO) and Hojo is faster.
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. 4-Yuber (S3)- No vote.
Middle
1-Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3)- No vote.
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2)
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3)
Lute (FE8) vs. 3-Bebedora (AtL4)- Whee Res.
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC)- Bloody wind cane.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG)
Dahna (G3) vs. 3-Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
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Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - The Jade votes tell me that Jade must be faster? If not I suppose the longest runic/poke match ever could ensue, but yeah...
Hmm...didn't think about that...though the problem is this...
Celes has to use Haste to be faster; whatever Jade does turn 1 won't matter much, lets say he first the ID, misses. Celes counters by casting Haste, now she's faster, laps him, uses Runic.
Jade then uses a physical, hurts Celes. So...now what does Celes do?
She can either cast Cure, give Jade a free turn to cast Rub, then she attacks him with Flare. If she does that, she's just back to Square 1 of Rub out paces Celes' damage.
If she uses Runic again? Jade just wears her out with physical damage.
Basically, Celes is put on the defensive in this fight, and Jade has a way to EVENTUALLY get around that defensive strategy. Had Jade been an average boss instead of a sick BoF1 Endgame Freak who doesn't die, this would be a much closer fight, but that's just hypothetical thinking, since Jade *IS* a BoF1 Endgame Freak <_<
Also, do note that Jade's ID is 3% chance of *USING* it. And no, CK, its not 50%; that's Deis' version. Jade's is 33% or so. It out and out sucks, and it wouldn't even be considered if Jade wasn't as durable a freak as he is (hence my comment about why this fight could be interesting if this was most any other boss but Jade.)
...well, ok, 33% chance isn't *THAT* bad, but against Celes who has good M. Block lowering it to about 20%, and Magic Defense to lower it further...yeah. Its typically a move useful only against Lightning Immune Healers who don't have a lot of damage (so, for example, if we put Terra instead of Celes in, the fight kind of changes since suddenly that's a lot more damage Jade has to race against.)
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Can Celes make herself fast enough to double, use Vanish then Runic, and keep going with damage on doubles only before Rub can kill her? I know Vanish makes magic not miss, but that's what Runic is for. That's the only thing I can see that gives her a chance to win.
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Godlike
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - Spoiler Godlike... against a Godlike with... ...mmm, this is closer than I thought. Give me time to think it over, but I may switch votes.
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX) - Decent Heavy vs. Decent Godlike. Bye, Guv.
Heavy
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias) - L1 form does enough damage. I... think? Gah, Golden Hydra wasn't terrible.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7) - I lean toward a 3-4HKO on Hojo's damage. ...Nina can't kill him quick enough. Go go durability respect + I think the formchain's legal, meaning Nina gets slowly worn down.
Middle
1-Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3) - Peter.
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3) - Who are these people? Uhhhh random lizard man and random dragon, okay, dragon beats lizard.
Light
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2) - I dunno, if someone pulled out the actual numbers here on how the match goes I'd be willing to change vote, but oh god, I don't care, one of them wins and then likely loses next round I don't care get this match away from meeeeeee
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L1 Gades is a Godlike. He's really fast and his damage is strong. No real flaws either- lacks the glaring holy weakness of the L2 scrubs. Barbarossa has no business beating Gades 1.
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Also, do note that Jade's ID is 3% chance of *USING* it. And no, CK, its not 50%; that's Deis' version. Jade's is 33% or so. It out and out sucks, and it wouldn't even be considered if Jade wasn't as durable a freak as he is (hence my comment about why this fight could be interesting if this was most any other boss but Jade.)
...well, ok, 33% chance isn't *THAT* bad, but against Celes who has good M. Block lowering it to about 20%, and Magic Defense to lower it further...yeah. Its typically a move useful only against Lightning Immune Healers who don't have a lot of damage (so, for example, if we put Terra instead of Celes in, the fight kind of changes since suddenly that's a lot more damage Jade has to race against.)
Whoops. Got confused there. He rarely used it in game, and it NEVER connected.(for me)
My avatar's approved? SWEET!
Maybe I'll do some damage and stats averages for PB after my exams. :P
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Sarah disputes that claim, Snow. her HP doesn't go up enough to make up for how much damage/speed/evade she loses. But of course, Sarah is speshul.
Actually, the damage is mostly the same, the speed is mostly the same and Sarah loses the "not totally sucking at taking magic" schtick (her HP is -that- bad). She loses the ID, which sucks, but the ID is slowish to begin with. No matter how good that skillset is, getting overkilled by average physicals and possibly OHKOed by magic just sucks too much. The evade doesn't offset things enough. So, they end up pretty similar in worth, although that's probably part of your point.
... dear god, Sarah fails.
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If you're interested in it, talk to Unorginial about it. He has the basics of a stat topic down at least. Ash is probably the game's only rank and it has a fair ways to go before even getting a Forgotten Warrior in the DL, but hey. It can't hurt.
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Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4)- GRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1)- I think Celes has a good chance here, actually?
Berle (SO2) vs. Kratos Aurion (ToS)
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX)- See Ryu vs. Ted.
Heavy
1-Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP)
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias)- Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7)
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. 4-Yuber (S3)
Middle
1-Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3)
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2)- ^_^
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3)
Lute (FE8) vs. 3-Bebedora (AtL4)
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC)
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG)
Dahna (G3) vs. 3-Frank Goldfinger (SH3)- Worthless SH3.
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Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4) - Goes first.
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - Gonna lean for Jade on this one, after reading previous arguments.
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX) - Yuna has the better team.
Heavy
1-Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP) - Lack of respect for Tales of summoners.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7) - 3HKO's.
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. Yuber (S3) - Undecided here... leaning Yuber though.
Middle
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3) - What a boring match.
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC) - I actually think Rude can slug this.
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Godlike:
Guv (DQ8) vs Yuna (FFX) - Yuna has meatshields, and she can outlast CT. And then she has even more Aeons to kill Guv with.
Heavy:
Can't Vote.
Middle:
Shiba (S3) vs Bright (S3) - Slightly better Suikoscrub. Sad match.
Light:
Gepetto (SH2) vs Lucia (SH2) - Has... damage? Sort of? Even sadder.
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Oh, boss Yuber is evasive. Just... so is PC Yuber, and Bloody Rose is pretty accurate in ToD terms (i.e. it's really rarely blocked), which means he's probably getting killed by one attack anyway while the PC form doesn't. I just don't really see the point of trying to spin a win for boss Yuber when PC Yuber has a far better shot, really. <_< The WA4 boss-level HP the human S3 bosses sport means they universally want their PC forms, no questions asked.
Well, I missed one of the few fully missable stars, and haven't gotten around to replaying yet, so technically I haven't seen the PC form. Though I guess I've played enough to figure it out pretty easy based on the stat topic, there's nothing really odd about Yuber to make it hard to vote by comparing him to the characters that I have seen.
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Don't fret about that, if you played through the entirety of S3, you probably understand the game mechanics well enough to vote on the PC form without having seen it in action yourself. If we only voted on PCs we used in a full playthrough, I'm guessing a lot of people wouldn't vote on 70% of large cast games. Although you have the question for how well Yuber holds up to Rutee answered regardless. <_<
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If you're interested in it, talk to Unorginial about it. He has the basics of a stat topic down at least. Ash is probably the game's only rank and it has a fair ways to go before even getting a Forgotten Warrior in the DL, but hey. It can't hurt.
If you want it, it's all yours, I'm already backlogged enough as it is. Feel free to take whatever you might find useful in the shell I put up on the old forums.
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For the people that restrict bosses to actual chances, for what it's worth, since the topic doesn't appear to be over here yet, if Jade uses a special attack he has 9/16 chance of falling rocks, 1/4 chance of Chill, 1/8 chance of BoltX, 1/16 chance of Rub. But I don't currently know what chance he has of doing a special instead of a normal in the first place ._.
[EDIT]Apparently the chance of doing a special changes per turn, and not in an orderly fashion. Well a great lot of help that is. From 1 in 16 to guaranteed. Tssk.
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Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4) - Ted disrupts Godlike by taking on a PC in his first round. Sierra wants this kind of luck.
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - Without BoltX, my Jade respect is lost.
Berle (SO2) vs. Kratos Aurion (ToS) - Boss Kratos has 10xPCHP, while Berle has 200xPCHP? Even considering the ARPG speed and Kratos' much better damage (0.8HKO vs. 2.5HKO), Kratos is losing this unless you allow him First Aid. I played ToS in Hard mode, so I can't remember if Normal mode Kratos has First Aid in his boss form. In Hard Mode, he was able to cast First Aid without being knocked out of it by physicals. This would, given that both ARPG bosses have unlimited resources, conceivably give this match to Kratos who is doing small - though unhealable- damage to Berle's 170000HP, even though it would take something around 200 ARPG 'turns' to do it.
Guv (DQ8) vs. 3-Yuna (FFX) - I really wanted Guv to win this. Yuna champs again?
Heavy
1-Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP) - Klarth OHKOs.
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias) - Gades 1 smash.
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7) - It's close, but I'll give this to Hojo.
Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs. 4-Yuber (S3) - Rutee heals through Yuber's limited resources and OHKOs his boss form! But Yuber's PC form heal locks. Does Yuber's PC form count as Aftergame? Hmm... Well, I'm all for giving characters their best possible forms. If Rutee uses her Radiant Mythology form, she can debuff Yuber's defense with Acid Rain and 2HKO, if you see her as surviving 3 turns of Yuber's physical. She can decrease his accuracy and buff her own defense to improve her chances and still have enough TP to do her 2HKO. She also has 100% accuracy spell/skill Silence to get around his runes. I'll give this to Rutee, surprisingly...
Middle
1-Peter (SF2) vs. Queen (S3) - Can't vote.
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2) - Lunar Legend form Nash has gamebest damage. Good for you Nash.
Shiba (S3) vs. Bright (S3) - Shiba's in Middle?
Lute (FE8) vs. 3-Bebedora (AtL4) - Wow, spoiled. Bebedora's the only AtL4 character I ever liked, too bad.
Light
1-Rude (FF7) vs. Mia Ausa (L:SSSC) - No Rude respect. At all.
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2) - Uh... I don't know, actually.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs. Kelvena (XG) - Ricardo is not Kelvena.
Dahna (G3) vs. 3-Frank Goldfinger (SH3) - Light is full of SH this week. Sleep weapon hype.
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Godlike
1-Ryu (BoF3) vs. Ted (S4) - An awesome change in the "Welcome to Godlike" trend.
Celes Chere (FF6) vs. Jade (BoF1) - Unless Celes can turn out at least 3-2ing Jade, I... Don't think she wins this. A pity, that.
Heavy
1-Lynx (CC) vs. Claus F. Lester (ToP) - ToPo Klarth starts summoning. Lynx hits Klarth. Klarth has to start all over. Rinse and repeat.
Barbarossa (S1) vs. Gades (Lufias) - I... Didn't see Gades as very threatening in Lufia 1. Barbarossa, however...
Nina (BoF2) vs. Hojo (FF7) - I refuse to think on this.
Middle
Nash (L:SSSC) vs. Karin Koenig (SH2) - I'd love to vote Karin on this... But I haven't even finished Lunar yet.
Light
Gepetto (SH2) vs. Lucia (SH2) - This match would probably fail less if Lucia could buff herself.
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I have to say, is it really the traditional Godlike welcome when the upgrader is a former Godlike themselves? <_< Regardless of the fact it's being turned on it's head.
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The real hilarious part is Ryu3 potentially hitting a downgrade pool.
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If Ted wins, Ryu3 definitely gets to rape a downgrade pool. This should be funny.