The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: AndrewRogue on January 19, 2010, 08:19:57 AM
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Discussion is available in: #DLIAQ
Seriously.
Anyhow. Welcome to Round 2 of the IAQ. In Round 1, we came up with a loose battle system after a great deal of trial and error. We're now going to do a complete 180 on the subject matter, cast stats to the wind and talk about one of my favorite chunks: story related stuff! A pox on anyone who questions the importance of this! A pox! More seriously, in this round, we're going to focus in on WORLD BUILDING, PLOT SKELETONS and, tangentially, CHARACTERS. Try to keep the discussion focused in on these subjects. If you want to tangent to something else (mechanics, etc), please make sure it is directly connected to the matter at hand. And please, avoid idea dumping. It was something that got a lot of complaints. If you're going to post large masses of text at once, keep them focused. Thanks. <3
Anyhow, let us get this going. I had a setting (and, vaguely related, a plot) pitch. This is an idea I have for a novel, but I'm willing to donate since that project is on hold for the moment anyway. Just keep in mind I ask that no one steal it and call it their own. >_>
Gonna try to do this in brief and crunchy form since I'm tired and it could be rejected out and out anyway. I'll gladly expand on anything if people are interested.
The setting hinges on the existence of a dual part magic system referred to as Resonance and Dissonance. Both are the arts and manipulating the Flow of the world around you (all things being formed of the Flow), a gift that manifests itself as a sort of synesthetic sixth sense (you can perceive the Flow through one of your other five senses). Depending on your character, you'll naturally find a preference for one style. What you can do with both styles of magic is also largely dependent on you, since they are direct manifestations of your will and desire.
Dissonance, the more powerful magic, is the power to enforce your will upon reality. You can cause the world to do unnatural things by altering the Flow around you: you can summon flame out of nothing, you can make a whole field of crops grow within hours, you can cause the earth to rise up and transform into metals, etc. Its pretty powerful stuff. Unfortunately, it also comes at a major price. The alteration of the Flow tends to leave it unstable, creating an effect known as the Disquiet. Which we'll get to.
Resonance, the weaker magic, is the power to supplement the world around you by strengthening the Flow around you: you can strengthen an allies muscles and lend them more endurance, you can supplement a craft to make superior goods, etc. You, essentially, make an object MORE what it is. It is much more subtle than Dissonance and more reliant on outside factors.
To put it in direct comparison: A practitioner in Dissonance could cause an entire acre of land to grow wildly overnight, while a practitioner of Resonance could only cause the plants to grow a little faster, but they'd be the most beautiful, hardy and delicious versions of themselves ever.
The Disquiet is a bad thing. A very bad thing. The manipulation of the Flow by a practitioner of Dissonance causes it to become unstable. While odd uses here and there won't cause any real damage, repeated and/or major uses in area start to really make things go to hell. It starts out as a simple, pervasive sense of unease. As it progresses, the land, air and creatures themselves become poisoned. Just walking through an area of severely Disquieted land is enough to drive a weak willed individual mad... provided they aren't killed by some mutant abomination or some dark, spiritual entity. Worse yet, the effect of Disquieting is permanent. It can be mitigated somewhat by Dissonant practitioners (it is fully possible for a skilled individual to continue to use Disquieted land).
Functionally, there is a third type of magic called Quieting, but that is secret lost to time and such. No relevance to anything at all. No sir.
With me still? Goodie.
So, to sum up the world history fast. Long time ago the land was a single continent. The first man discovered magic and became a god. The people dubbed him their Great Lord and became dependent on him. This upset the Great Lord, who did not wish this burden upon him, so he waged war on humanity. Forced to learn, humanity fought back and learned a magic of their own. In the final battle, the continent was sundered and split into the tons of islands it is now.
So, we now have isolated tribes of people. The people who discovered Dissonance became important as it was discovered that, with their gifts, they were not only dangerous warriors but, more importantly, they were natural resource wells. Depending on their talent and inclinations, skilled practitioners could cause the ground to sprout metals they needed or grow all the crops that the tribe would need for weeks in a day, etc.
Eventually, a great warrior and champion rose up and started gathering together tribes. Eventually, as his forces grew, so too did his conquests until the majority of the world fell under his purview (think Rome). The practitioners of Dissonance who could create natural resources/etc were elevated in society (the gift, especially to that degree, is uncommon and valuable). Its potential as a warfare tool was also discovered in this time frame. (It can also be said Resonance was found in this time, but Resonance is for artists and wusses, so who cares). Unfortunately, it was also discovered, due to the establishment of plantations for the Dissonant crops and mines and the discovery of dissonant healing, that the Disquiet existed. Whoops? Measures began to be taken at this point (Dissonant plantations became government regulated and tracked, measures were taken to limit the impact, etc).
Time came, the kingdom declined and started to disintegrate with the nobility (military high ups and Dissonance practitioners/civillian authorities) barely holding it together. The conditions of the Dissonant plantations grew worse as well, with the workers' conditions being understandably bad. On the whole, they were pretty much a step above slaves. Add in the fact that the damage of the Disquiet (especialy with limited land space over a bunch of small islands, etc), and people began to question the wisdom of their current direction. This dissatisfaction finally manifested fully in the rebellion of the Guardians (a specially trained subset of warriors who defended the plantation workers and neighboring areas from the Disquiet and its many dangers).
The Guardians began a campaign of guerilla warfare against the government, focusing on the assassination of plantation leaders and such. This is a fairly long ordeal (seven-ish years) and causes a lot of issues (the collapse of plantations, which causes already Disquieted areas to get worse, food shortages, etc. Eventually the Guardians are driven underground and the rebellion "quelled", the military leadership has seized governmental control and gone with stricter restrictions on Dissonant practitioners (to keep them sage/utilize them/abuse them). The Guardians have all but disappeared, with the few who remained loyal (or rather, did not join the rebellion) being relatively maligned symbols of those who did defect.
And man. This was supposed to be short. I think that gets the full gist across. All my current plotting picks up at the end there, but functionally, the world concept on the whole could be used with the game picking at any number of places along the timeline, although obviously where I was prepping my novel idea is the most interesting because, well, I planned for story there.
To ACTUALLY BE SHORT THIS TIME, the plot concept is roughly something like this.
Noemi, a recently graduated practitioner of Dissonance is interested in researching the Disquiet, believing that there is a secret to mitigating or even reversing its effects, which would be MUCH wiser than either thee plan to end all use of it (for the natural repercussions of going from massive production to... not) or just keep using it (which will eventually over poison the world, no doubt). Obviously, there are people against this, bad people wanting to exploit her findings, the threat of the rebellion renewing and, of course, the trip will eventually take her (and friends) to the Great Lord's Throne... There are a few characters and plot stuffs more to be explained obviously, but I think this suffices for a short (overly long) pitch, eh?
Questions, comments, thoughts, etc? Interested in using it, or shall I file it back away and actually start working on the associated novel?
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Short version, as Andy's sanity/comprehension check-
1. A Rome-like empire encompassing vast island chains is fraying at the seams, with nobles, a military dictatorship, and the remnants a peasant army all tugging at the treads.
2. Magic is, as far as most know, divided into Gross, miracle-tastic spells which have a lasting negative effect on the fabric of reality, and Natural, hippy-tastic stuff.
3. God exists, and he doesn't think people have any business depending on him to solve their problems.
All this accurate?
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Hmm... I like it. Has the potential to be environmentally preachy, though.
...may not be a bad thing if both sides of the arguments are treated fairly and the people that are -for- keeping Dissonance-assisted production around aren't just greedy bastards (but perhaps more like influential people whose hometowns would starve if the production suddenly stopped).
Really doesn't fit with my idea of the mechanics so far, but I like the concept so far and I'd support some version of this. It's unfortunate how much of the world-building is tied up with the magic system because that makes the magic system a lot less inflexible in mechanics terms.
Not sure what the direction you wanted to take the 'solution', but I would propose that there are other styles of magic/alchemy/technology/whatever in the world than just Dissonance, Resonance, and Quieting that work outside their rules to affect the Flow. Perhaps another culture on the planet (or another planet/dimension, not quite sure if that's an option) has been utilizing the Flow entirely differently for a long time and one of our other parties focus on this style of magic? (Just to allow for a little bit more options in mechanics.)
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file it back away and actually start working on the associated novel?
I'd piratebuy that actually.
Looks interesting so far. A good setup should be strong enough to make a good story.
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Actually, I think that as a tie-in at the character design/gameplay level, this is pretty workable. Because manipulation of Flow is tied into to the senses, the simple solution is, of course, to (whether explicitly in plot terms or merely at the design level) create different 'schools' of usage dependant upon which sense the user is most comfortable with/uses, depending on whether we want to be restrictive in the ability to switch how one sense or not.
Since we're looking at 3 parties, having one from whatever exists outside the empire seems like something we'll at least look at. If we wanted to have alternative means of manipulating Flow, or even just schools which were never discovered within the empire, that'd be an easy association.
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To use a HoMM parallel, in the newer games there are six factions- one for the five schools of magic and "might," which sits at a neutral place in the circle of alliances that the other factions have drawn up. Perhaps there could also be a group of people who are believers in what they call "Natural Law." Rather than doing things through magical means, they would apply large amounts of directed manpower (think classical construction projects) to make their shit happen. They would make up the "barbarian" tribes outside the Empire, which isn't to say they'd necessarily be bloodthirsty Orcs, but they would be distinctly different from the Empire.
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Hmm, I definately like this. And the fact that at least one party would be starting off by looking for a way to fix the bad side effects of dissonance so that they can keep on using it means it can't get too preachy so long as that's a viable goal. Quietus not being an available magic, or being something that's a mid-late game plot magic sounds like the way to go with that, which means that Dissonance, Resonance, and Martial all sound like reasonable ways to go when looking at power sources, and the added wrinkle of being tied to particular senses means that you have, oh... two or three basic divisions, and then five within that for 10-15 different 'sources' to design characters with. Just within the basic setup.
No issues with the inflexability since this setup has a very nice flavour explaination for what the characters are able to do, as well as what else is going on, and will provide a nice guide for design decisions to follow. It even gives lots of potential for parties (Noemi, Imperial, Guardian, Barbarian just being the easy to spot ones, depending on where we want to focus).
I'd say more, but now that I've looked at the basic concept, I want some time to let it sink in and play around with it before making more suggestions.
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I also agree with everyone who said that they liked it. Also the dissonance/ressonance system seems like it would lend itself to a battle system with combination attacks if we still wanted to include it. (Dissonance user makes a fireball and ressonance user makes it into a massive inferno / an archer shoots a few arrows into the air and ressonance users turns it into a deadly rain of arrows.)
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I also agree with everyone who said that they liked it. Also the dissonance/ressonance system seems like it would lend itself to a battle system with combination attacks if we still wanted to include it. (Dissonance user makes a fireball and ressonance user makes it into a massive inferno / an archer shoots a few arrows into the air and ressonance users turns it into a deadly rain of arrows.)
I know I shouldn't be nitpicking, but I think the point of dissonance and resonance might be missed here. If anything, Dissonance can be considered the direct distortion of reality/Flow, while Resonance is the magnification of natural law.
In fact, both would have their considerations in healing, as well. Dissonance is more of an instant effect, so its use could conceivably be to save a life on the brink of death by sealing up wounds on a body/instantly destroying a fatal disease. The downside is that scarring may be restrictive to those who were healed this way, or coming out with a FAR weaker immune system. Resonance, however, would just improve the quality and power of natural regeneration, as well as improving the state of a target's immune system, making them stronger within the boundaries of natural law. The downside to that, however, may that the improved regeneration and stronger immune system may not actually gain power and/or take effect fast enough to save someone's life.
If anything, we should probably work on the world building before we start organizing the bones of our plot skeleton - sure, we need to know the shape of the bones to make the frame, but we need the frame to organize those bones in.
So, first off, how should the world look (including the explained bones for plot):
A. Two or three major continents, with a few islands off the shore here and there.
B. Land masses that are about as big as Australia is to the rest of the world, and scatter them about.
C. Tons and tons and TONS of smaller islands, where one island could hold, say, three New York Citys or the entirety of England.
...Of course, these examples are just for reference's sake. After that, then we go straight for building international politics!
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Note: Andy, you may want to check out the basic plot of ToV, as its story and yours have quite a lot of overlap.
I really like the concept of Magic being something that's researchable, understandable, quantifiable. A kind of energy, like photons - perhaps even having similar particle/wave properties. Even more fun to think about with this system is how magic manifests itself to the senses. Presumably, it's possible to sense all magic with all five senses. But only some people have really developed the talent to sense it in this manner. To the lay person, magic is just unseen force. A mage casts magic and results start happening. Nothing too flashy unless the mage is going for that. If a person can -sense- magic though, imagine the fireworks and bangs that result from all the heat and light escaping from exciting spells!
ToV did something really neat in that it referred to spells as "Formulas", and that really excited the math-lover in me. I think we could do something similar (many fantasy novels have done it, but I think the idea still has lots of room for exploration).
Basic proposal for division of magic schools based on senses and how they might relate to gameplay.
Sense of Touch: This is probably the most intuitive way to sense magic. You feel it on your skin, in your nerve endings. You don't think about feeling it, it just happens. It's raw, it's alive, and it's easy to shape. I don't think humans would have ever developed anything resembling civilization if a lot of people were able to feel this. They'd be too caught up in the ecstasy or the pain of feeling magic all the time. Alternately, it'd be way too easy for this kind of mage to go crazy with their power.
I imagine a rare few people are born with this ability with any significant level of sensitivity. These people would be very adept at using magic, and require no teaching to use spells. In fact, they would have the opposite problem, they'd be able to learn too much magic... and unable to forget it. With too much sensitivity, they would be unable to -stop- feeling the magic. And I imagine that can be quite painful.
A less sensitive Tactile mage would probably have less trouble with pain, but more trouble in using spells intuitively. They may even require touching their targets to effect them. Or being in contact with magical items to cast proper spells.
Gameplay-wise, Tactile mages intrigue me as an idea. Sensitive ones control magic intuitively, they never have to be taught how. They could essentially be Blue Mages. Once they experience a spell, they will never forget it. They also don't have to think about the magic, much like one doesn't have to think about feeling hot or cold. They would be extremely speedy spellcasters, but would wear out quickly from the backlash of their own spells (HP-reliant spells, or one-use-cooldown spells are some example ideas). Many would be very suited to casting Healing spells as these may counteract the effects of 'old wounds' when used (Healing another person may also cause some 'backlash healing' to the lucky Tactile mage). But also, they sense magic when it touches them, so they have little time to react to it before they are affected by it, so a pure Tactile mage is probably the most magically-frail type. Alternately, they're used to experiencing constant pain, so they might be a bit more physically resistant (or have/need high HP).
A less sensitive Tactile mage is a little luckier in some ways. They wouldn't need to worry about backlash from their own spells, so they can continue to cast more. However, they may require being in contact with the target (melee-range mage!), or consuming magic from a powered-up item to direct long-range spells. These actions are still easily intuitive and would allow the low-sensitivity Tactile mage to cast effects quickly, though the abilities would not be nearly as strong as a high-sensitivity Tactile mage. Also, learning spells just be experiencing them may take more time than simply studying how to cast it. Many low-sensitivity Tactile mages, having a relatively rare sense but not burdened by constant pain, would probably consider becoming Researchers of The Flow as they already have an unteachable talent for understanding it.
Sense of Taste/Smell: Another intuitive method of sensing The Flow. The senses of Smell and Taste are strongly related and separating them seems silly, but perhaps there might be one person who is only skilled at one or the other. Both of these senses are deeply rooted in the primal brain and require little conscious thought. As a result, this kind of mage rarely needs to do much studying or focusing to be talented with their gift. Unlike the other senses, Smell and Taste can only interact with larger substances, long carbon chains and other such molecules, as compared to particles or waves. This generally means that "Flavor mages" perform magic by sensing biological/organic components created in spells, such as some kind of pseudo-proteins created by Healing magic or Transmutation magic.
Flavor mages normally end up specialists in the Healing fields by profession, thanks to their talents. Many supplement their natural affinity for Healing with study on Anatomy and Disease. Though others may take to Animal Husbandry or Botany for similar reasons. This kind of natural affinity for healing would be very beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint, so unless some kind of purging occurred (likely in some cultures, meaning that it may be more prevalent in some civilizations than others), it seems likely that many people have this ability in some capacity, though not all may know how to use it effectively unless they are particularly sensitive to scents/tastes.
Gameplay-wise, Flavor mages are fairly intuitive types, so they would be fairly fast casters, and normally specialize in Healing, though other Biological-based spells would be open to them as well. Since they can sense magic by its scent, they have far better reaction time to offensive magic than Tactile mages. Although Humans tend to have poor senses of smell in general, so it's likely they aren't particular good at reacting to it (average magic defense/evade). Manipulating magic through scent/taste would require tools/ingredients in my mind, so many spells would seem more like witch's concoctions or alchemical potions than the hand-waving Tactile mages. Probably the item-collecting/consuming-type mages in our groups, but some may be capable of using a target's own bodily fluids and humors to cause the magical reactions needed for Healing/Transmutation/Disease-causing spells.
Sense of Hearing: Now we come to the slightly more research-intensive branches of magic. Just like a sense of perfect pitch is an innate talent, sensing magic by sound is something that's primarily innately-known. However, similar to learning music, most people can be taught how to listen for different tones and pitches. Aural mages sense magic as a kind of music, and can control it in the same manner. While most people can be taught to hear the majority of tones accurately, there's a significantly fewer number of people who can manipulate the tones perfectly. The most skilled Aural mages are accomplished musicians in their own right and tend to treat magic as an art, though there are some Aural mages who treat their spells like mathematics formulas as well, especially the ones with less innate talent for hearing tones and singing on-key.
Since Aural magic is based on Sound, it tends to be the hardest to focus type of magic, and most spells are tuned with a general audience in mind. It is relatively easy to remember a spell of this manner once a song is learned and requires few resources from the caster. Some Aural mages may supplement their spellcasting abilities with instruments, lyrics, or dances for added focus. It's notable that vocal-based spells like this are the easiest to accidentally create a mistaken tone and are the most commonly flubbed kind of spell. It's also notable that the strongest spells of Aural magic tend to take a long time to complete the required pattern of tones. The more tone-deaf Aural mages tend to produce some very interesting effects using disjointed tones and pitches instead of more traditional 'songs'. Due to the nature of Dissonance and Resonance in this world, some basic Aural spells are commonly used to demonstrate the effects Dissonant and Resonant spells in even the most rural communities.
Gameplay-wise, Aural mages sense magic by sound and tend to be the most adept of all mages at sensing incoming magic before it strikes (High magic evade). Depending upon the strength of the caster, the effects of Aural magic can range from only during the performance of the chant to more permanent spells like the other schools of magic, though the longer-lasting spells are much harder to learn through this school. Spells for affecting large areas, such as manipulating weather, strengthening a group of people, or clearing a field of trees tend to be common. Casting speed for Aural mages is incredibly variable depending upon the strength of a spell. Weak spells can normally even be powered up by repeating the same chant multiple times in a row. However, mistakes happen frequently, and targeting single areas is difficult, so these spells have a tendency to miss or diffuse their effects, especially the further from the caster they get. Oddly enough, some spells actually grow in strength like a surging wave as they spread out from their caster, especially Dissonant spells.
Sense of Sight: Another research-heavy school of magic. Nearly any mage that takes up a profession in Magic eventually learns to hone their innate ability to see magic, no matter how faint it may be. It is very rare to have no ability at all to see magic, though most people tend to gloss over its subtle colors. Without being able to see it in some form, it becomes very difficult to study indeed. Vision mages are the most common mages around. They perceive magic as a wash of colors and learn to separate, connect, intensify, and erase the various shades of energy to produce physical effects. Vision magic tends to be first thing people think about when someone says the word 'spells' as Vision mages tend to produce a lot of excess energy when casting that escapes as light and heat. Because studying Vision magic is essentially studying energy, Vision mages tend to need a lot of time to study the complicated formulas for manipulating energy and take a relatively long time and a lot of focus to cast their spells, though generally with accurate, spectacular effect. Though more difficult spells may take some time to cast, Vision mages tend to be able to continue to cast simple spells for a long time without growing tired.
Gameplay-wise, I imagine Vision mages play like standard RPG mages. They can see magic long before it reaches them (provided they are paying attention) unlike Tactile and Flavor mages, but they are a bit more limited than Aural mages; giving them good durability to magic (how standard!). They can cast easy spells relatively quickly and frequently, but take more time and energy to cast larger spells (a Suiko-like charge system seems best to me). Manipulating colors means that generally using a single color (and vary shades of it) produces a corresponding elemental effect. Vision spells can be diagrammed on paper, so oftentimes even a lay person can use a simple diagrammed spell as a tool or to power a machine (or to item-cast a spell?). Vision magic has an odd tendency to be seen primarily in the Dissonant form, with very few known Resonant Vision spells in existence.
Sense of Mind/Logic: You didn't think I was going to shortchange you on senses just because I combined Smell/Taste, did you? Our Sixth Sense-type mages are the pure research branch. In no way can you accidentally become a mage like this. These mages devote their life to researching the Flow, to understanding spells, and many of them have some ability at all 4 innate magic senses. They have broken down magic into a set of laws and formulas, mapped its existence as a photon, a particle, a wave, a molecule. They understand -what- Magic is, and this knowledge itself allows them to cast spells unique to this school. They know how expand a singularity, count to infinity, simplify imaginary numbers, and divide by zero. What seems like impossibility to scientists is actually just incomplete data to these Theory mages and they know how to fill in the gaps. Oddly enough, some spiritual and religious leaders have been known to be able to produce magical effects similar to Theory magic through intense meditation and devotion, causing some to wonder about a possible connection, but authorities on both sides claim no relation.
A complex science, Theory magic tends to require complicated diagrams and geometric patterns to generate energy and focus for a spell. Mathematical formulas are commonly necessary to direct and relegate the effects of a spell, which can rapidly go out of control if handled improperly. Theory magic tends to be roughly equal in power and scope to Tactile spells, though takes a significantly longer amount of preparation to cast. As a trade-off, the caster is not directly effected by the spells and they tend to have a longer duration, even if they are not as immediately powerful. Some Theory mages have reported that using these spells is like Sensing the Thoughts of magic itself.
Gameplay-wise, there are probably no pure Theory mages, as it would require having no magical senses and that would make studying it extremely difficult. However, presumably one could exist if they studied hard enough. Being entirely magic-blind means that they have no defenses against magic. However, I suspect that someone completely null of magical senses may be some kind of untouchable blind spot in the Flow itself and might simply immune magic. It would be a rare occurrence, at any rate. Theory mages tend to be capable of some of the most spectacular magical effects, and the learnable nature of the spells makes it the ideal school for having multiple people to aid in the casting of a single spell.
A Theory mage who was quite talented in all the magical senses would be an ideal candidate for delicate tasks such as summoning creatures/deity-like entities or creating homunculi.
Overall, it seems like it wouldn't be uncommon for 'profesional' mages to have more than one magical sense, though most probably have a favored way of relating to magic. People who hold different occupations might have developed one sense in particular without needing the others, though. Gameplay-wise, this means that fighter-type characters might only know a few Taste/Smell-type spells to boost their own strength or something.
So, that's my outline for a magic system. A bit long, but I wanted to tie the gameplay system to world-building as much as possible. Agree, disagree, suggestions for tweaking?
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Not reading much yet, since it is a mere coffee break that I am on.
Yeah. I thought about putting a note in there about the environmentally preachy thing. Both sides have their pros and cons. The far extremes on both edges are pretty nasty and villainous on the whole. While its pretty obvious why the whole Dissonant production thing is Bad (TM) I didn't really emphasize why getting rid of it is also Bad (TM). Suffice to say that the whole of the society is fairly dependent on Dissonant production on the whole and culling it out in any drastic fashion would lead to mass materials shortage, potential for mass starvation, etc. The far end of the rebellion/revolution thinks the loss of life is well worth it.
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Looks good so far. I think the setting lends itself very well to multiple perspectives, and will start brainstorming for character/plot thread ideas that fit within the setting shortly. Also I like that the magic system is more well-thought out than like... pretty much every other RPG, more along the lines of what you might see in fantasy. I dig. Also agreed that it probably lends itself pretty well to in-battle magic for all that my thoughts are less concerned with that at the moment since we're not yet on the topic of how PCs do in battle.
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Liking the look of this a lot. I'll try to chime in a little more when we get to specific character discussions, since I honestly can't think of anything to add at this stage.
Also liking Djinn's ideas, but this only covers the mages. And I don't want to instantly say "Yup, that works!" and not even consider looking at other options.
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This setup's got a nice flavor. Bad writing could make it enviro-preachy, but as it stands, it looks like it could work. Quieting...yeah. That's blatant plot magic if I've ever heard it, and shouldn't be revealed until late into the story. Hinting at it and its use mid to mid-late at earliest, to boot. Availability...well, that's pretty obvious. The Disquiet, on that end, works to explain some opposition people might face in travels, at least. Mutated creatures, natural animals driven to madness, and other things best not spoken of, nevermind seen. This, alongside the political tension, would definitely provide a lot of conflict potential.
I'm liking what Djinn's saying, and mixing and matching the schools would allow for a wide variety of magic use. I'm considering several ideas already on that, but will be on that later.
Now, semi-tangentially, "Tons of islands" implies a significant amount of water in the setting. This would thus imply that sea/ocean routes would be viable. ...and thus, piracy would likely not be uncommon. In fact--if there's a lot of water travel, then I'm now seeing pirates and privateers--under hire of nobles, against other nobles, for the purposes of either undermining power or attempting to gain more of their own. And with the kingdom's power at a low--naval included--there wouldn't be too much stopping them, I don't think.
Furthermore, the idea of the Great Lord gives me the idea of a group of people who have taken it upon themselves to make sure that nobody tries to come to him with anything--as to avoid sparking yet another war. They would not be above killing in order to reach this goal--but at the same time intend to remain secret. In today's world, they would be neutral to the issue of the Disquiet, as such is secondary to another war of such magnitude on the hands of humanity. To that degree, they would attempt to warn away people who got close, eliminate people who get too close, as well as destroy any information pertaining to either their own existence or the location of the Great Lord. Just a random idea on my part, but if the plot would take Noemi so far, it feels like that would be a logical entity.
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I don't see these people who guard the Great Lord as necessarily being neutral on the issue of Disquiet myself, and more opposed to it, and seeing any such conflict as one that would only lead to further weaponization of dissonance, which would lead to a further slagging of the land with Disquiet. After all, the foremost warriors and producers of this land are essentially walking nukes. That said, I also wasn't even entirely sure this Great Lord was even still alive, since his description is essentially "The First Wizard". Not a God, but commonly viewed as one because he was just that damned powerful. I mean, hell, we could have him revered as a god of sorts, and even just have the truth of the story, which Andy gave us first in his synopsys be a twist that comes out when they find his resting place.
One thing that does appeal to me is this. Likely, this Empire has not only conquored all of it neighbours, but it likely also took all the noteworthy land it could reach. After all, resources are no issue. This likely also led to a) far more population growth than could naturally be sustained, and b) a lifestyle of consumption that cannot be sustained. Those two points are likely leading to c) immense pressure to keep the system going because tens of thousands are going to die of starvation and much more than that see a massive drop in their way of life if the Distortion Plantations cease operation, or even drop operation in any appreciable way. And d) there is likely also a huge push to explore further and further out in search of new lands to colonize so that the population can be diffused and new sources of resources can be found. Or, hell, new places that no one cares about can be slagged in order to keep the empire going.
This means that the Empire proper will be for anything to lessen the Disquiet, because Distortion is the power on which their empire is based. Whereas, I can see several lesser nobles wanting to co-opt, capture, or delay (by any of an assorted number of means, including killing) any such fix because they can see themselves doing better than the other lesser lords when the Empire falls apart under the strain, and it doesn't matter what happens to some other lord's people so long as they can procure enough goods and food for their own people.
So, yeah. I'd say not just piracy is becoming rampant, but also that the lesser lords are starting to mass their armed forces, and the Empire's forces are starting to get stretched between dealing with riots, protecting shipments from the Distortion Plantations that still operate, and exploring for new and viable lands.
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More caught up now. I feel vaguely cheated that I feel Djinn wrote more than me, it looks like. *fist shake* I'll comment on that when I have a bit more time, as it is an interesting blend of things I already thought, things that I think are neat, things I dislike and things that are just things.
Anyhow, some clarifications.
I know I shouldn't be nitpicking, but I think the point of dissonance and resonance might be missed here. If anything, Dissonance can be considered the direct distortion of reality/Flow, while Resonance is the magnification of natural law.
In fact, both would have their considerations in healing, as well. Dissonance is more of an instant effect, so its use could conceivably be to save a life on the brink of death by sealing up wounds on a body/instantly destroying a fatal disease. The downside is that scarring may be restrictive to those who were healed this way, or coming out with a FAR weaker immune system. Resonance, however, would just improve the quality and power of natural regeneration, as well as improving the state of a target's immune system, making them stronger within the boundaries of natural law. The downside to that, however, may that the improved regeneration and stronger immune system may not actually gain power and/or take effect fast enough to save someone's life.
Bingo. Magic hit the nail on the head and, in fact, hit the example I probably should have used perfectly. Dissonant healing of any substantial amount, while capable of pretty much bringing you back from death's door itself, utterly reams the bodies naturally capabilities. Too much of it, and your immune system would collapse, your body would stop self-healing, your mind would start to crumble. Of course, if its the only thing to save your life... Resonance is great for downtime healing, minor injuries or naturally recoverable stuff.
Since the idea seems to be somewhat like, let us hit the bigger world spoiler/major late story plot/etc.
Quieting is the null form of magic, the art of causing the cessation of the Flow. Remember how I talked about everything being comprised of the Flow? Yeah. That makes Quieting a Bad (TM) thing on the whole. Quieting is the cessation of being. At an emotional level, it is the creation of apathy and nihilsm. At the physical level it is, essentially, death. It is capable of fully nulling out Dissonance and wars pretty evenly with Resonance.
However.
The ideal final goal is the discovery that the three magic systems (Res/Dis/Quieting) are, in fact, complimentary. The power that humanity acquired was imperfect, in essence, because they got the chunks seperately and lost one along the way. Ideally speaking, perfection can be achieved via this:
Dissonance (Create the Effect) -> Quieting (Still the Flow, reducing its distortion and thus reducing the Disquiet) -> Resonance (Embolden the Flow, negating the effects of the Quieting on the subject). To be perfectly balanced, it requires three equally competent users performing an effect that all three can handle but, fundamentally, it would allow for a readjustment of society that would, eventually, allow recovery from the way things have been going without the issues that cutting out Dissonant production completely would.
So. Yes. I am specifically avoiding enviro-preachy. I'm also avoiding industrial-praechy. The idea is all about the middle ground! Hurrah, moderates!
It should be noted here that the Guardians learned a very, very, very rudimentary form of this process, which, in addition to the blood, sweat and tears spent learning to fight the in/around/against the Disquiet, made them so bloody brilliant at it. The vast majority aren't even aware that it IS a form of magic and just think it is hard training and meditation. Debatably, the vast majority of Guardians do NOT possess the sixth sense to detect the Flow. This is typified in the Guardian's fighting style which, outwardly, is all about maintaining a calm, relaxed demeanor and striking with sudden ferocity. In reality, they project a very mild aura of Quieting, before enhancing themselves with Resonance and their weapon with a Dissonance to take it far beyond itself. The Resonance protects themselves from long exposure to their own Disquiet, as well as allowing them the sudden emotional outpouring when they attack. The Disquiet prevents their weapon from deteriorating due to the Dissonance. Etc. Think of it as a mystical form of Iaijutsu, since that's what I've based Mirek's fighting style in annnnnyways.
Anyhow, if people want to roll with this, I only really have ideas for Noemi's branch (which I'll detail on my coffee break/after work, along with answering more things) so, if we want one - two more branches, people ought start brainstorming because I have 0 for anything besides that. Well. I mean, there are rough ideas, but nothing hugely cohesive in the same way as the world and the one branch. Bah. You know what I mean. Keep contributing and don't be intimidated.
Or else.
Seriously, good stuff so far. ^_^
Edit: Because I fail at tags.
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Have to say I'm really liking the world setting. Actual plot I don't really care one way or another.
Also liking Djinn's crude schools thing. The basic ideas are good, though there's some room for change/tweaking in there. Mostly speaking from a mechanics standpoint, though it fits the setting well which is the important part for this topic. Also allows for my main idea for a PC, which gets bonus points!
Not much else to say outside of that.
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So, do the people know that the use of Dissonance destroys your immune system, or do they just know it causes you to become sick? I'm just wondering if a society that possesses multiple levels of magical healing should have much of a knowledge of things like cellular biology.
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Given the dominant form of magic is Dissonance, I'd actually expect the typical views of the body to be more in chakras or wholistic energy flows and the like. Especially since those views mesh better with the magic system in place here than western views of the body. And I would imagine that with this view, and in light of world events, that if people didn't already know, then it'd certainly either be widely suspected (in the way some folks view power cables or cell phones and cancer) or it would be something that people would be in collective denial about.
Given what you just said, I think I actually really like the idea of a Guardian Path now. If only so that we can actually have Quietus in there the whole way, but also show people as not understanding what it is, or rather, thinking it's just a different form of distortion. This does mean that Noemi's path cannot branch with this path early, but that's not actually a huge deal.
For a third, I'm thinking that with the Guardian revelation, looking for something from outside is no longer necessary. And that means that, as much fun as it could be to work with one, that a 'barbarian' kingdom now has no real narritive purpose to exist. This means we'd want either a proper Imperial viewpoint, likely focussed on trying to keep the kingdom together. Either that, or a more Resonant focused Peasent party, though that seems like it'd have to take some work to be differentiated from the Guardian path.
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Hm. Those that revere the (potentially) fallen Great Lord as a god. That would indeed be an interesting twist on things.
And the forces becoming highly stretched all but guarantees that mercenary work is very readily available. With the gap in manpower, those who fight for money would be in enough demand that the world would ultimately support such. These jobs would likely range from the typical (bodyguard, escorting for supplies) to the unscrupulous (Sabotage, assassination), and varying in between based on the person hiring--government mercenaries would be to fill in the manpower for varied tasks (putting down riots, helping to transport supplies, so on). Mercenaries hired under lords would either be used to fill in their personal armies more, or directing attacks against other nobles without letting it be known who performed the attack in the first place--likely very popular for that reason alone.
...of course, those of them that are particularly good at what they do are treated as a significant risk--since if the person's loyalty was to money alone, and any opposition paid well enough, that weapon could be turned against them in a second's notice.
Which brings me to an idea for one of the other plot branches, albeit with names removed because I can't THINK of any as of this moment: [name1], a disillusioned and experienced officer in the Empire who was somewhat successful in fighting the Guardians in the past rebellion, was one of those who had gone 'MIA' during a recent riot as an unidentified third party had attacked. Accompanying her, much to her own irritation at times, is [name2], a fresh mercenary who's clearly a bit too idealistic for his situation. Not long after, [name1] quickly learns that she has been suspected of high treason by the empire she served, and now ends up having to fight on three fronts; to escape from the mercenaries who are after the price on her head--and the imperials who are after it out of duty, to find and exact vengeance on the person who set this up to begin with, and to survive with what little money and food they have... (More details to be forthcoming; I have another class soon)
Have a third branch idea, but it's vague to say the least...and now seeing Excal's idea for the Guardian path...might want to expand upon that for the third.
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Hmm, Imperial Path as an ex-Imperial currently a mercenary simply trying to survive both past enemies and past employers who both want him/her dead for different reasons. Yeah, I can actually see this party acting as a kind of bridge between the two other stories for the first bit. As well, because of the fact that they're simply trying to get away from everything else, I'd imagine this group will be a good one to introduce a good chunk of the BBEG plot. Noemi's being the other.
Guardian, on the other hand, feels like it's going to be the reason as to why the Empire isn't going to simply stand up and fix things, assuming that the final battle is big and public. It might actually be nice if we take the rarer route of the big final battle being somewhere completely out of the way and most people don't actually even know it's happening. In which case, everything may fall on the party simply because anything else will simply cause even more trouble than actually letting everything fall to pieces and throwing everything at the BBEG and then making sure there's something to pick up afterwards.
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Just mentioning that the three magic types lend itself really well to the three party system we were talking about in the gameplay thread. Each party could have one person who is particularly skilled in that type of magic. Although the Quieting user may know about it or have full control of their power at the start of the game.
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Well, in regards to the novel, Andy, you could always work on novelizing what we write up as a whole >_>
Anyway, thoughts, so I don't fall so behind this time!
I really like the set-up. The description of magic and everything is detailed and direct, and works exceptionally well. I think it complements everything, and the background is definitely budding positiveness.
If I read it right, here are the thoughts for paths:
Branch 1: Noemi
Branch 2: Guardian
Branch 3: Imperial (fallen Imperial?)
This story also holds a lot in common with Rudra. I'd actually like to suggest a 4th, short, relatively small path that occurs before the others tie together, similar to Dune in Rudra. Something that is a short connection between them, preferably with a person involved with the other paths (a peasant in an area everyone goes through that has no magical power, or something, or perhaps putting a true Quieter there). This story set-up seems like it would be helpful to have that - probably not necessary, but it would allow, if we were looking for 20 characters, 4 groups of 5, 5 person battles (again, mechanics and the like). It also would allow another perspective, as right now, looking at the paths, we're missing the commoner, which I feel gets left out a lot more often than not. Also allows some extra logic and perspective as to why things need fixed.
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Thing is, to a certain extent I can see merging the commoner with the three different paths, since they can all have excuses to mix it up with commoners. Noemi least of all, but the other two certainly. One is having to blend in with them, and figuring out just how bad things really are. The other is because that's likely where a large part of their base is, and where they're hiding out to some extent.
I mean, it really sounds like the modern Guardians will be a guerilla group.
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Personally I think the idea of a Fallen Imperial already gives a lot of opportunity to explore the world and see the commoner's point of view.
However, I'm not opposed to a 4th viewpoint idea as a short way of tying things together. Very Suiko3 Thomas, and that's my favorite part of S3. Although... I wouldn't suggest giving commoner a full new cast, it seems excessive. It's an option, but I'd rather keep the main 3 parties as the focus. I'd rather see our Thomas as a side/temp PC in one of the other paths, and then his 4th viewpoint chapter simply brings him to the fore. Be careful s/he doesn't become Jesus. So... I don't suggest carpenter as an occupation.
This would have to be a very short chapter if we implement it, otherwise we'll probably be rehashing a lot of Fallen Imperial's world-building.
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Since it seems my magic post is a bit too long, I tried to summarize it a bit.
tl;dr version:
Magic manifests through 5 senses. Most people don't have enough of these senses to sense magic well enough to use it. Mages tend to focus on one sense, though may be skilled at using others.
1. Touch: High-sensitivity Tactile mages work like Blue mages, have low magic resistance, intuitively cast spells quickly, though can't cast for long due to feeling the effects of their own magic. Very rare. Very powerful. Specialize in spell mimicry.
Low-sensitivity Tactile mages have to be in contact with an item or target to use magic, working more like item-casters or melee-enhancers. Low resistance, fast casting, but limited by supplies. Fairly common. Specialize in close-range magic.
2. Taste/Scent: High-sensitivity Flavor mages only sense biological magic. They have little ability to effect non-living things. Average resistance, fairly intuitive above-average casting speed. Uncommon. Specialize in healing and transmutation.
Low-sensitivity Flavor mages cannot directly manipulate biological matter, so they rely on potions/items and work like alchemists/hedgewizards. Low resistance, above average casting speed, but generally requires supplies, and sometimes mistakes happen.
3. Sound: High-sensitivity/talent Aural mages tend to be artists and musicians. They intuitively understand the 'tones' of music and tend to use song and rhythm to cast spells. Very high magical evade, and songs tend to produce either instantly effective(though instantly-ending duration with the music) abilities or very slow-to-start abilities that don't take effect until the completion of the song. Somewhat rare. Because focusing is difficult, they tend to specialize in Group-targeting spells and Field Effects.
Low-sensitivity/talent Aural mages tend to be mathematicians, using long-researched short tones to produce effects. Correctly producing the tones is difficult, and casting tends to be sluggish, and have short-lasting effects. Fairly common ability, though few lay people use the talent outside of knowing when to get out of the way of magic. Relatively high magic evade, specialize in defensive effects.
4. Sight: Vision mages tend to view magic by its colors and shades, and sometimes subtle patterns. Work likes standard mages, though some Vision spells can be recreated in items. Average resistance, usually slow casting speeds with variable duration on effects. High-sensitivity Vision mages are uncommon, but most people have some ability to see magic and can train the ability. Specialize in Elemental magic.
5. Mind/Logic: Theory mages are the dedicated students and researchers of magic. Even if they have crappy magical senses, they can work hard and learn this type of magic. These spells tend to focus on complex diagrams, runes, formulas, or magic circles to produce effects. A pure Theory mage has no magical resistance, and their spells take a lot of time to cast, though tend to have the longest-lasting durations. Because anyone is capable of using a Theory spell, this branch of magic specializes in using multiple people to produce one spell (combo attacks). Theory mages with talents in all 4 senses tend to be able to use the highest level of reality-bending magic and summoning.
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And the forces becoming highly stretched all but guarantees that mercenary work is very readily available. With the gap in manpower, those who fight for money would be in enough demand that the world would ultimately support such. These jobs would likely range from the typical (bodyguard, escorting for supplies) to the unscrupulous (Sabotage, assassination), and varying in between based on the person hiring--government mercenaries would be to fill in the manpower for varied tasks (putting down riots, helping to transport supplies, so on). Mercenaries hired under lords would either be used to fill in their personal armies more, or directing attacks against other nobles without letting it be known who performed the attack in the first place--likely very popular for that reason alone.
...of course, those of them that are particularly good at what they do are treated as a significant risk--since if the person's loyalty was to money alone, and any opposition paid well enough, that weapon could be turned against them in a second's notice.
Historically, mercenaries were used more for normal combat than any kind of special riot duty or something. It was, after all, the most dangerous job, so why waste your own people on the front line when you can put mercs in front of your regulars? I know I wouldn't want a bunch of undisciplined, rowdy sellswords doing my riot duty for me.
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Well, with regards to the Disquiet being permanant, I think it would be more "accurate" to say that it's like Nuclear Poisoning, i.e. degrades at a rate and the land is eventually made habitable again. Of course, the halflife of "disquiet" would be such that, for the purposes of the civilization at the time, it could be construed as "permanant". (The same with "Quiet" in fact. "Positive" Radiation vs. "Negative" Radiation, both lethal.) Perhaps high Quiet would lead to a decay of the ecosystem of another sort: instead of poisoned food there's no food at all for example.
This actually could be considered less Captain Planet versus Rush Limbaugh and more JRR Tolkien versus Modern Society.
Basicaly, it's less of the Pax Romana and more of a Pax Britanna or Pax Americana of the modern day. Except with the governmental trappings of the Pax Romana. Still would probably subvert the "Empire is bad on principle" trope, though the internal intrigues would be just as exciting. And lend better to the "It's All Up to You" Trope than an all out war between an Empire and a Rebellion.
In any event, I can see the "aggression meters" being tied to the state of the land: The amount of disquiet in a area would impact that area's indigenous wildlife directly. Domesticated animals would be goverened by a mix of the area's disquiet and the attitudes of the animals' owners. Invasive wildlife would, in theory, be a manifestation of the effects of disquiet from the areas they used to inhabit. In gameplay terms, this just means that the use of Dissonant magic in and of itself would not impact this group of animals. Being a target of said magic, on the other hand...
In fact, invasive wildlife could be guidesigns pointing to areas of high Disquiet. Or perhaps even an area of high Quiet as a twist (i.e. Animals rampaging due to Disquiet versus Animals rampaging due to hunger. Multiple instances of MisBlame+Coverup would be a signal of a plot twist.)
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By the by, if anyone else has another setting concept or anything, please do not be afraid to post it! I may be a self-important jerk, but I don’t want to bury any potentially great ideas under a wall of text that happened to go first because I’m the dude posting these topics. >_> Also, do feel free to directly challenge anything I write. Again, I am simply pitching this to you, the committee, as a potentiality. I don’t want to browbeat the topic into adopting whatever I say by virtue of being prolific. This area just happens to be my specialty.
So, do the people know that the use of Dissonance destroys your immune system, or do they just know it causes you to become sick? I'm just wondering if a society that possesses multiple levels of magical healing should have much of a knowledge of things like cellular biology.
Just that it makes you become sick/stop healing naturally. It was initially discovered when a few people who had been healed from drastic injuries started going batshit insane and decaying. After some examination and noticing that people who had been healed this way to a lesser degree were less healthy, the connection was made. The exact effects are pretty unknown and can vary from person to person, but most practitioners are trained to guess at about how badly their healing will effect another person. They can also make a fair guess by looking at your Flow.
On The Great Lord: There are actually a few dedicated religions to him, so it would be no surprise if there was something of a militant sect like Nama suggests. On the whole though, the area where the Great Lord would presumably reside, the central island, the Great Lord's Throne is pretty much utterly inaccessible. Early expeditions there found a "barren, terrifying land haunted and hunted by the dead." In actuality, and as was later realized, the Great Lord's Throne is simply an area of nearly incomprehensible Disquiet. So it is pretty naturally inaccessible. Still, wouldn’t stop the “devout” from not wanting people to even try, especially given that nasty things have come from there before. Works for me if we want to work it in somewhere.
While I'm thinking about it, in actuality, many people actually see the Great Lord as a benevolent figure who, gave humanity the means and opportunity to acquire independence. It is often believed that those who carve their own paths in life, regardless of the consequence, are the favored of the Great Lord and will one day be able to pass the veil of his throne and join him in eternal life and awesome or what not. Of course, there are also churches that see him as a cruel, unforgiving death god that turned his back on humanity because of his weakness or his hatred of them.
On the reality of the matter? It is something of a halfway point between the idea of a god and the idea of merely the first practitioner but we can go into that a bit later since the reality of myth is far more flexible.
Nama and Excal: I like. I like a lot. Piracy was something I never considered but makes a TON of sense. In addition, the nobility issue makes a tremendous amount of sense, especially when you consider the idea that, under the current timeline, it is pretty much a military authority wherein the civil authorities/important figures have been marginalized. I dig. Plus includes fantastic dynamics all around. The barbarian idea is similarly great, especially when paired with the ability to give us something radically different for one of the paths by REALLY digging at a different culture/environment/etc. Since, honestly, the empire, even accounting for regional difference, is going to naturally end up a certain way. This is definitely something to be expanded on.
Other thing worth noting while I remember it. Dissonant practitioners are VERY much under the purview of the government. Potentials are actively sought out and recruited to the academy and, provided they can pass the rigorous schooling are inducted into the government and allowed certain outlets pending their abilities. Anyone showing potential as a Dissonant producer is jammed into that since the Guardian Rebellion/Revolution lost them an awful lot of those (which is another reason the civil authority fell to military authority) and they are trying desperately to recoup their losses/get the disquieted land back under control. Others are allowed to pursue research projects (think being a grad student on your thesis-ish sort of thing or enter into the military. On the whole, Dissonant practitioners are fairly heavily tracked/monitored for unshocking reasons.
Anyhow. Onto that plot thing. (Note, nothing I say henceforth disqualifies the current path ideas floating around, just letting you all know where I was going originally. This includes a retcon to account for the fact that I forgot the fact that the Rebellion/Revolution was NOT long-lived, otherwise my time frame blows up. Originally my plot was focused primarily around the characters of Noemi and Mirek, but they were tied pretty close, so this could be changed around to accomodate multiple branches, or it could be left as a strong central narrative and the others could just be built on it. This includes backstory, so brace yourself.
<backstory>Noemi is the orphaned daughter of plantation workers who was placed in the Crimson House Orphanage in the city of YYYY, an orphanage specifically set up by the plantation owner/Dissonant producer, [XXXX of the Crimson House] and his brother-in-law, Erastus. XXXX was a fairly liberal individual and did his damnedest to insure the safety of his workers, including encouraging his only son, Mirek, to become a Guardian. Early on, her talents were discovered by the kindly Erastus (who spent much of his free time frequenting the orphanage with his wife, children and nephew) and he encouraged her as well as the other orphans. When she was old enough to be sent to one of the central cities to formally enter the school, Erastus helped her plan the details and made sure she would be cared for there. So thus, our orphan went off to learn the art of Dissonance.
Meanwhile, Mirek and his cousin, Mynasar, were inducted into the Guardians and started to learn that stuff. There, Mirek fell for a woman of remarkable talent, etc, etc.
So, time passes. Tensions over the Dissonant plantations, worker conditions, etc reach boiling points and, across the world, uprisings begin, led by Guardians. Dissonant producers are struck down, their lands destroyed, etc.
In the city of YYYY and the area, things remain tense, but peaceful. XXXX's efforts seem to have endeared him to the people and the Guardians there, keeping the areas stable. Erastus and his wife are recruited into the war effort in the north, while Erastus' daughter, Clacy, is moved south to help there. Erastus, one of the most skilled Dissonant practitioners in the west, proves an amazing asset.
Back in YYYY, tensions have peaked and a plot has been hatched, in secret, amongst several of the Guardians to carry out an assassination of XXXX. The day of the plan, Mynasar and Mirek are taken out into the plantation and offered the choice of joining the traitorous Guardians. Unshockingly, the two refuse and combat breaks out. Mynasar and Mirek manage to get the upper hand until the gal Mirek digs enters the fray. Some talking, some snarking and some hesitation gets Mynasar killed and Mirek wounded. Mirek manages to get escape, but the assassination is carried and XXXX is killed.
On their respective fields, Erastus' wife is also slain and Clacygael is driven mad by repeated Dissonant healings.
Hearing about the the deaths and disabling of his family, Erastus gets a bit understandably angry and, in the next battle he is engaged in, unleashes the full force of his power, utterly annihilating the opposing forces, officially establishing himself as a hero of the war and one of the four greatest practitioners in the world. Unbeknownst to the general publid, he also annihilated the vast majority of allied forces there with him. (The site of this battle is the Desert of Red Glass, quite appropriate, given that Erastus used fire to do his ruination. The area is now massively Disquieted.
In the wake of Erastus' victory, the Empire's forces score a series of decisive civtories. The Guardians are forced underground (or, more appropriately, back into Disquieted areas since pursuing them there would be suicide).
Noemi has been doing damn well in school, in the meanwhile. Yes, her role in the backstory is kinda dull. We're getting there.
Back in YYYY, Mirek, as a member of the Guardians is shunned by the community at large. Due to his father's soft approach, he is post mortemly treated as a traitor (more signs of the military displacing the civil authorities) to the empire and the Crimson House lands are returned to the government, leaving him without home, money or... anything really. He struggles to get his uncle's help, but obviously the man is a bit distraught to care about his nephew's plight, leaving Mirek to fend for himself. The former Guardian is left homeless, living in the slums that border the Dissonant plantation. With only his residual sense of betrayal, he began to silently champion the area.
Back to Noemi, finally. Having graduated at the top of the class, she is free to pursue a research subject. She chooses the (hopeless, but obviously of government desire) subject of the Disquiet and reversing it. Having looked into the prior research, the mythology of the world, old documents and what not, she believes there is something to it. One of her major interests are Guardians, given their ability to survive in Disquieted areas, and Disquieted areas themselves. Having been in communication with Erastus (and knowing of what happened with him) she contacts him, hoping to get help and, perhaps, give the old man a little something to do.
Meanwhile, back in YYYY, Mirek, nearing the end of his ropes, encounters a young woman named Eirwen and protects her from a group of thugs. In return, she invites him back to the tavern that she owns and, at the least, offers the man a meal. Her co-owner and long time friend, Artur, is wary and, upon recognizing Mirek as a Guardian, adamant against his presence. Eirwen prevails and hires the troubled Guardian on as staff.
Noemi hears from Erastus who agrees to assist her with her research and encourages her to return to YYYY. She agrees and travels. Upon arriving, she is greeted by the old man (who definitely looks very bad, all things considered). He nevertheless greets her as cheerful as he ever was, revealing the he has a plan to help her: finding his nephew, as he's probably one of the few Guardians she could examine close-up.
And man. I just realized how long this is getting. So... uh. Lemme post this.
Thus, she hunts down and Mirek and soon becomes embroiled in a plot to bring about another revolution, as well as a sinister goal to achieve long lost power and remake the world. Or something. Lordy. I'll start another post with more plot direction and a Dramatis Personae type thing.
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Dramatis Personae (aka, likely PCs)
Noemi
A young orphan who lost her parents in the Crimson House plantation. She, along with the other orphans, were well treated. She grew up, hurt and mournful by the loss, but blaming the Disquiet, rather than Dissonance itself. Erastus of the Crimson House took a special interest in her and often let her spend time with his children and nephew. He observed early on that she possessed the talent to be a practitioner. He supported her and introduced her to the art of Dissonance (to which she showed a natural aptitude). She came to consider him something of a father figure.
She excelled at the academy, showing a talent for the manipulation of stone of metal (no doubt a factor of her determination and will), as well as in the areas of research and study. She dreams of discovering a way to reduce or reverse the effects of the Disquiet, believing that the use of Dissonance is correct and respecting the blood, sweat and tears that have gone into creating modern society and sincerely wishes that no one go through what she had to.
Erastus
One of the greatest practitioners of the age, Erastus grew up in the care of the church as an orphan. He met his beloved in the church and, after a short time, wed into the rich and powerful Crimson House. There, at the behest of XXXX, he organized the Crimson House orphanage.
Erastus is an exceptional talent. He showed immense talent in his youth, naturally developing as a Resonant practitioner who specialized in morale. When he was later discovered, he was, surprisingly, found to be a highly capable Dissonant practitioner as well, with a specialty in fire. Following the loss of his family, his Resonant talent changed to the negative side of morale.
Despite the war and the loss of his family, he has maintained his cheerful, joking demeanor. Yet, something sinister seems to lurk behind the jokes and laughs, a sort of bitter hatred for everything he looks on. He considers Noemi something of a second daughter and desperately wishes to reconnect with his estranged nephew. He hopes to help Noemi achieve her goals... and perhaps manage something of his own as well.
(It should be noted now that Erastus is intended to turn antagonist at some point. He's gone a little crazy in the years and wishes to gather a band of like minded individuals to change the world. To this end, he wants Noemi and Mirek to suffer in the same manner as he has, realizing that there is no justice in the world. Ideally, he'll lead them to ultimate happiness before cutting it out from under them).
Mirek
The last scion of the Crimson House and a Guardian. He got a lot of coverage above because of me being silly. As a Guardian, he fights with a weapon and using a form of the Guardian Style. He emphasizes relaxed and casual movement, allowing for deceptive dodges, and sudden, violent attacks.
Below his calm and relaxed demeanor rages a storm of emotion that he refuses to reveal. He has grown to fear connecting deeply with a person again, dreading another costly betrayal. He no longer knows what he wants out of life and acts as a defender out of a sort of boredom and need to release his stress.
Eirwen
A young woman from the north, she and her family moved to YYYY to escape stuff up north. They opened a tavern in the city, but the subsequent rebellion and such has stuck them in hard times. She's a bit frail (perhaps disabled in some regard?), but spirited and caring. Although she seems a bit naive and silly at times, she is incredibly perceptive and rather intelligent. She has something of a mean streak and hates people looking down on her.
She is a Resonant practitioner, specializing in cooking. She's been known to bring a grown man too tears with one o her meals, and her chicken soup really is good for the soul.
In her time interacting with Mirek, she seems to develop a great amount of fondness for the young man, seeing beyond the cold demeanor that he projects.
Artur
A childhood friend of Noemi's. He has always thought of her as fragile and in need of watching and has always done his best to be there beside her... occasionally to her chagrin. He greatly desires for her to return his affection. having grown up poor and living near disquieted areas, he is disenchanted with the government and, secretly, supports the Guardians. He is connected to one of the current sub leaders of the new subleaders of the second revolution and acts as a recruiter and a spy.
He is a large and powerful man, and his size belies a relatively cunning and cautious mind. He isn't afraid to throw his size around to get what he wants and, when forced into combat, uses heavy, blunt objects.
He feels immensely threatened by Mirek for a multitude of reasons.
(Artur is designed to end up as an antagonist as well. Preferably for personal reasons. He really does resent the affection that Eirwen shows Mirek, considering her as "his." Aiming for the far creepy side of the guy rejected by the girl.)
Aurel
An imperial knight who distinguished himself by surviving a number of battlefields with impossible odds. He is assigned to watch Noemi due to her interactions with the problematic Erastus and her interaction with a Guardian. His instructions are to bring her back if she seems to be being led off her path. Although he seems to be simply a military loyalist, he is simply most interested in what is best for the empire and her people.
The secret to his survival is a hidden talent for Dissonance, focused entirely on self-healing, backed by excellent combat skills. As a result, his body is beginning to deteriorate rapidly, but he presses on, keeping himself alive with his talent.
He develops a great deal of admiration for Noemi's drive and sees her as a sort of soulmate, as they share a powerful interest in doing what is best for the people.
...whew. That does it for now. Not highly detailed, but gets the job done.
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And now, I think, I will not make any long posts for quite a while and instead focus on answering questions and discussion. >_> Sorry about the long posts.
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Alright... Now this? This is some damn fine fodder to work with.
So, initial thoughts...
We should strike Noemi's path. Her story seems to be the meta story, so I'm thinking what we really want is to have Noemi and Erastus' story thread through all three paths until it's time for the paths to start joining. At which point, Noemi will become the lead.
So, what will we use for paths?
Mirek - seems like the obvious choice for the Guardian lead. Perhaps his time in the Disquiet means that he'll be strongly anti-Dissonance as this seems like the proper place to stick the pro-Resonance camp. Sure, Mirek can use Dissonance as a Guardian, but the official line is that when they win, they'll outlaw it, and kill anyone who does use it.
Imperial - I'm thinking an Ex-Officer who was high up in the Dissonance Corps. However, while she won a victory by coldly deciding to sacrifice a good chunk of her own troop, in her case, it not only became public knowledge, but one of the people that she killed happened to be a favoured son of one of the more important nobles. This meant that she was officially shuffled off into a dark corner where she'd never be seen again. Unofficially, she's been given a new identity as a mercenary, and does black ops for the government when they need something done, but don't want it to be obvious they did it. Start of her path will likely involve being a hired escort for Noemi and Aurel.
And I'm thinking the third path will be the Barbarian Path. Stick some land that was either too far off, or too hard to conquor. Or even just stat that they had their own Dissonance to fight back with. Though, a different government structure meant that they never institutionalized it as much. Likely a loose confederation of God-Kings where Dissonance is strictly kept in noble lines and those who show talent outside of the ruling class are either adopted or executed. Likely adopted, as it is seen as a sign from the First God, from whom all Kings are descended (not really, they've just told everyone that for so long that they all believe it now) that that particular individual is of divine birth.
While I imagine they will want a piece of the pie, I'd also have them be fractious in their own way, and have some of them in on Erastus' plan. However, the main goal here will be to claim a large chunk of the empire.
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My only problem with striking Noemi's perspective is that we lose out on a good opportunity to do early world-building and explain magic since she's a student. I always find it annoying when world-building tries to happen through a side character's dialogue or something. It's more interesting if world-building is a natural consequence of the focus of the narrative - like Noemi going out to -study- the intriguing system of magic in this world.
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Can the final boss declare at some point he will "KNOCK US ALL DOWN?" please? Nothing builds up a villain more than that.
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So... what? You want to do world building through discussion of a thesis? That sounds like a horifically boring way to do it. Especially since there's going to be three viewpoints, and no guarantee she'll be picked first.
More to the point, the golden rule is show, don't tell. So, I mean, sure. We can introduce stuff by having it be there in the notes review or whatever. Or we could show why Disquiet is bad by starting in the Disquiet infested slums that Marik lives in. We can show the power and majesty of Dissonance and the more muted power of Resonance by showing the lifestyle of the barbaric God Kings. We can even show the dire state of the empire and show the importance of Noemi's quest by starting with her life in peril, and a small team of specialists working to get her to her destinations safely, so that she can actually study the Disquiet while they hold the twisted monstrosities and the sellswords hired by conniving nobles at bay.
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You could always have a Dissonant Plantation be shut down partway through the story to depict how essential they are for people's survival, too.
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Alright... Now this? This is some damn fine fodder to work with.
So, initial thoughts...
We should strike Noemi's path. Her story seems to be the meta story, so I'm thinking what we really want is to have Noemi and Erastus' story thread through all three paths until it's time for the paths to start joining. At which point, Noemi will become the lead.
So, what will we use for paths?
Hm. Noemi's path being fourth makes a lot of sense. She seems to have the metaplot, and thus if she would end up crossing all three paths (Mirek's is pretty clear. Isolde(Imperial) would be hired to temporarily guide her at the start of the plot--prior to the start of her own actual plot, and as for the barbarians, uh...'passing through', perhaps? Dunno there). Plotlines would have to converge somehow, at the very least, to avoid feeling forced.
Imperial - I'm thinking an Ex-Officer who was high up in the Dissonance Corps. However, while she won a victory by coldly deciding to sacrifice a good chunk of her own troop, in her case, it not only became public knowledge, but one of the people that she killed happened to be a favoured son of one of the more important nobles. This meant that she was officially shuffled off into a dark corner where she'd never be seen again. Unofficially, she's been given a new identity as a mercenary, and does black ops for the government when they need something done, but don't want it to be obvious they did it. Start of her path will likely involve being a hired escort for Noemi and Aurel.
Hm. That start works. Thinking soon after, she's set up for a framing act by an outside party (One of the nobles, or someone else with machinations of their own--possibly a rival Dissonance Corps officer trying to bump off competition for a promotion, and trying to ensure that s/he gets as much possible benefit from it as possible or is trying to make sure that Isolde can't ever speak out on it. Possibly could have been the person who made the sacrifice public knowledge to begin with, if we want to get that far into it)--to start the aforementioned accuastions of high treason, being hunted by both Dissonance Corps officers and mercenaries out for some cash, while trying to find the person responsible for this to begin with.
Dramatis Personae(Isolde path) thoughts (Incomplete, of course):
Isolde
Previously a notable officer in the Dissonance Corps, Isolde's background was that in the peasantry. Showing Dissonance potential at around ten years of age, she was quickly taken to the academy for further training. Her style of usage was discovered to be strong but limited, as while her Dissonance affinity appeared to be that for [insert offense-viable choice here] and was channeled intuitively, she seemed to only be able to channel it through contact. To that end, she preferred to use a held object for that purpose--and started training to use a weapon for those means. Given her talents, it was inevitable that she would end up in the Imperial Dissonance Corps.
She rose in rank along with her success in the battlefield, but quickly became disillusioned with combat and the military life as the fighting never really ended. However, her status changed after an information leak occurred about her actions during the battle of XXXX, which, while won decisively, involved the sacrifice of a large portion of the men under her. The fact that this number included an influential noble's favorite son did not help matters, so for her safety from the public, Isolde had gone underground as a mercenary, under the name 'Sieghild'. She was mostly on her own, though the Empire occasionally forwards her a 'black ops' job that they do not want on the record.
Isolde was frequently a closed-off person with only a few friends amongst her peers in the Dissonance Corps, but has become even moreso now. She holds a cynical viewpoint on the world, and is generally not impacted by violence the way most are. Her fighting style is notably aggressive, channeling highly-destructive Dissonance through her weapon of choice, which is frequently a two-handed sword, a large axe, or a polearm of some variety. However, this channeling takes a toll on her own strength, being both painful and exhausting at the same time, bringing her ever closer to death as the attack devastates the unfortunate enemy that happens to be in the path of her blade.
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I mentioned this in chat earlier, but I would still love to see Aurel go insane from the Disquiet. I know Andy's original plan had him become devoted to the cause, despite starting for the government, and that much I can get behind. But he strikes me as the type to not see the plans come to fruition, and I think it'd be a brilliant part of the plot if he were to start showing these signs of insanity just as they're getting somewhere, with an eventual fight against him or something. PC deaths tend to be interesting, especially when they play on emotions, and the experience system means we won't screw over anyone who's focused on levelling him, gameplay-wise.
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Now for some less specific, more generalized thoughts.
The story would probably be better worked if we set it up as a series of plot arcs, ala Shadow Hearts: Covenant, each building onto a more generalized metaplot that will eventually become the center line. As such, we’re probably looking at having a number of antagonists/villains, most of whom will be culled over the course of the story, but some who will last it out to the end for final confrontations. We should probably definitely aim to have at least one from each major camp (the Empire and the Guardians, for sure), all the while trying to keep the PCs primarily as moderates, outsiders or those damaged by the extremist views.
We also need to come up with the actual conflicts. I mean, we have the functional reason for why stuff is going down, but we definitely need to nail down the opposition and how it fits into the structure.
Excal: That’s actually a pretty good idea. Honestly, I’d be inclined to say that Noemi’s path should be targeted as the “main” path, with her getting the opening, closing and various intermissions. This way we make sure we keep some noteworthy focus on her and the larger goal, but then can focus in on the personal stories and such in the other branches, as well as let them get swept up in her wake, until she ultimately claims true, centralized focus.
The path break-up looks fairly solid on the idea front. Mirek works, I think, from the prespective of having been an insider and having seen what led to the Guardian uprising and what have you, as well as the aftermath and fall out. (Also provides a decent picture of the response, life near the Disquiet, etc)
The Imperial idea is interesting and provides an excellent chance to get a look at the inner workings of the military, the Empire and the civil authority. My only question off-hand is, well, what does she want/hope to gain/etc?
The barbarian path concept is interesting. I think they might better serve as the negative Dissonance camp, ironically. If they limited their use notably/Dissoance was less common among them, it is likely they had to deal less with the Disquiet/have their own superstitions about it. Seeing society fat and decadent, o’er proud, living greedily off a power for the deserving alone, etc and thus rightfully cursed makes for an awesome angle that doesn’t really overlap our (theoretical) antagonist angles. Especially if we do play up issues of major life improvements as a result of the mass use of Dissonance vs the probable collapse if it was cut out, etc. Definitely an idea with a lot of potential.
Not sure about tying them to Erastus directly, but it… wouldn’t be unquestionable? The man is ancient, well-travelled and cunning. No doubt he knows of them, so it isn’t unreasonable that he’s been plotting this extensively and just waiting for a catalyst. Hell, this lets me bring back an old concept, a make believe prophecy written by Erastus proclaiming Noemi as some sort of God child promised to lead the world into a new age, which was a fun idea originally. Would probably allow us to ultimately establish Erastus as the final BBEG by showing the amusing, kindly old man, the fatherly figure, is really a horrific manipulator who has been using everyone the whole time. Definitely feels like it’d be a huge sucker punch to players. Which is awesome.
Djinn: Doing it this way, I think, gives us a really natural way to handle things. If we open with a Noemi chap, we can still manage the rough, quick and dirty stuff to get enough setting established and then let the showing, not telling, of the other branches (all of which have their specific regional, cultural and conceptual focuses) fill in the gaps and details.
Rob: Only if we make the official enemy defeated screen read “VICTOLY.”
Excal: Idle point, in that if we want the narratives interweaved via Noemi and such, we… might actually want to lock a lot of the progression since we, presumably, have some sort of chronological progression. We can have intermediary, free choice areas, but I don’t think the Suiko3 free choice, free order system is best for this one. I fully support “filler” chapters that can help fill in gaps and can be chosen freely, but the main narrative seems a little too chronologically locked/linked to be able to allow a ton of player freedom in that regard.
Rob: Definitely. It’d also be a pretty nice cue for the state of things to have had a producer or such assassinated recently and showing a city stuck on tight food rationing and what have you.
Nama: No comment, as of yet.
Yoshi: So this game is totally going to be FFIV, but instead of just losing PCs to Disney Death on a rotating basis, we are instead going to have them betray the rest of the PCs. *nods*
Seriously though, it is, again, an idea well worth considering.
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Hmm, Andy, I like your prophecy thing. Except, I don't like it being originated by Erastus.
New Improved history of the God Kings.
Way back in the beginning, sure the First Practitioner decided to wage war against everyone in order to make sure they'd actually not just rely on him for everything. However, do you really think that there wouldn't be people who'd stand by such a god figure whatever he did? Assuming that it's not our place to question such a being as he. Hell, some would also se a chance at opportunity. And, given his motives, I don't see him turning down people who want to learn.
In the end, the First Practitioner "loses" and leaves the stage of history, either dead or in self-exile. Great, his bit is done, and he's happy with it. But what of those who follow him. Not wanting to die, they end up in a far less voluntary exile. There the people who were personally trained by the First Practitioner take over and claim divine lineage. And, in order to stave off hurt pride and uncomfortable questions arising from the demonstrable fact that they got their collective asses kicked, they told this story about how this is all part of the First Practitioner's plan. That sometime in the future the Usurpers would destroy themselves, and the First Practitioner would come in new flesh to heal the wounds of the land, and restore things to How They Should Be.
Over countless generations, this story has gone from a justification for why we got our asses kicked and why we really won, and has become a devoutly believed prophecy that no one knows the origin of. Erastus, being knowledgable, manipulates Noemi into fulfilling the conditions of this, figuring that with the natural antagonism of the three groups, at least one of them is bound to hurt her in exactly the way he was hurt.
This also gives a reason as to why the Barbarian groups are invading, and why they'd have good relations with Noemi. Arguably, they're here looking for her so that they can start the proper invasion.
Oh, right, other thoughts.
Yeah, I'm not too hung up on the flexible viewpoints thing. In fact, I can see starting with Noemi and then transitioning to Imperial. Not sure how to order Barbarian 1 yet, as that will be out of nowhere, while the Guardian stuff will at least be told about before hand.
As for Erastus, I'm kinda seeing him as the BBEG, though in large part because he seems like he has reasonable motives for wanting to destroy the world. Notably, he's figured out the secret of Quietus and knows that it exists. This is part of why he's grooming Noemi as he is, he thinks he knows the answers she's going to find, and that she'll be perfect to help him complete his ritual once she has some perspective. Thing is, he's made a single mistake. He only thinks Quietus works on the super large scale.
So, his plan is to do a ritual to end the Flow, effectively killing everything. All people, all plants, all Disquiet. And then have a seed of Resonance burst from the shattered remnants of the ritual, which would restart the Flow and life afterwards, but without any of the Disquiet. Basically, rebooting the universe.
Finally, my one last idea which I'm going to share right now is this. All of the PCs here should be those who have a strong enough flow, whether through innate skill or some minor Resonance use, that they can survive Dissonance Healing with only minor traumatic effects. Basically, it's just a plot argument for why PCs can be healed with the super awesome healing magic and NPCs, for the most part, cannot. But I like the fact that it's there and explained for once.
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Mostly liking ideas so far, so not really going to comment on them.
I did think of something though.
It is possible to have some short introductory plotlines for world-building/setting. What made me think of this is Growlanser: Heritage of War (GL5). In GL5, the first plotline involves two guys (I forget their names offhand) trying to stop a war. They find an ancient powerful weapon, activate it, and basically hold it over everyone's heads saying "stop this war or we blow you up", and continue to use it to stop wars from happening. Then time jumps about 20 years or something, and there's a second introductory plot with Fanille (some researcher, IIRC) that quickly shows the state of the world at that point (IIRC it didn't do that great of a job, we can do better). Then we get thrown into the main part of the game. (GL5 itself only has one main path and optional subpaths, so it's a bit different, but still. By the way, Fanille becomes a permanent PC on the main path, while the aforementioned two guys do not. They do show up often in the plot though, obviously.)
I'm not sure introductory paths are desirable/necessary for this (due to already having multiple paths), but it's something to think about.
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Quick diversion to Sea Travel: Do we have Gunpowder Cannons in this world? If not, then all ship-to-ship combat would be by Archer/Crossbow or by Dissonant(/Quieting) magic.
But if so, then perhaps over the course of the game some bright spark in the Empire would invent gunpowder weaponry. This can be used as an alternative to Dissonant magic for the purposes of direct ranged warfare. This could be controversial, kind of like how Nuclear Power, while not generating much pollution, is a controversial source of power generation.
However, I wouldn't see any PCs using such weapons. (Or maybe just 1 or 2 Temps.)
Also, I hope that we can have a couple of "Badass Normals" who while they don't use magic themselves would still be able to cope with copious amounts of Dissonant Healing, by way of innate fortitude. Maybe 1-in-100 sort of Fortitude. (We may also have Temps that have less fortitude, but you lose them if you heal them "the wrong way" too much.)
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Quick diversion to Sea Travel: Do we have Gunpowder Cannons in this world? If not, then all ship-to-ship combat would be by Archer/Crossbow or by Dissonant(/Quieting) magic.
But if so, then perhaps over the course of the game some bright spark in the Empire would invent gunpowder weaponry. This can be used as an alternative to Dissonant magic for the purposes of direct ranged warfare. This could be controversial, kind of like how Nuclear Power, while not generating much pollution, is a controversial source of power generation.
However, I wouldn't see any PCs using such weapons. (Or maybe just 1 or 2 Temps.)
Also, I hope that we can have a couple of "Badass Normals" who while they don't use magic themselves would still be able to cope with copious amounts of Dissonant Healing, by way of innate fortitude. Maybe 1-in-100 sort of Fortitude. (We may also have Temps that have less fortitude, but you lose them if you heal them "the wrong way" too much.)
I find it hard to believe that a society that grows magic living batteries would ever find a reason to develop Gunpowder.
And personally, I'm leaning away from any PCs being strictly normal melee types. If they want skills, they're using some form of Flow, even the effects of meditation are related to Flow... Of course, this doesn't mean they are -that- different from normal humans running around. I imagine even normal humans have some minor ability to use Flow (like through meditation and training). Our melee types would simply be good at handling Dissonance Healing (and whatever else we make their skillsets do).
Excal's God-Kings.
Very cool. I'm really behind this idea. Also liking the 'barbarian' culture idea.
Djinn: Doing it this way, I think, gives us a really natural way to handle things. If we open with a Noemi chap, we can still manage the rough, quick and dirty stuff to get enough setting established and then let the showing, not telling, of the other branches (all of which have their specific regional, cultural and conceptual focuses) fill in the gaps and details.
This solves all my problems with making Noemi the '4th perspective'. Additionally, I wasn't proposing a 'tell' method of world-building with her thesis. Remember, she's doing field work, that leaves a LOT of room for her to go exploring, but specifically focus on the phenomena of the world, rather than just the politics.
Excal: Idle point, in that if we want the narratives interweaved via Noemi and such, we… might actually want to lock a lot of the progression since we, presumably, have some sort of chronological progression. We can have intermediary, free choice areas, but I don’t think the Suiko3 free choice, free order system is best for this one. I fully support “filler” chapters that can help fill in gaps and can be chosen freely, but the main narrative seems a little too chronologically locked/linked to be able to allow a ton of player freedom in that regard.
Welcome to Fire Emblem 10 perspective switching. GL5 also did something similar. Both games are -much- better for their inclusion. I'm fine with this, though it'd be nice if the player had -some- control over order. Perhaps we could come up with an alternate scenario at each major branch point, but that mostly lead to the same outcomes? Makes an interesting statement about destiny, too.
Tal: How did you forget Sherris and Randal's chapter in GL5?!
Isolde
Previously a notable officer in the Dissonance Corps, Isolde's background was that in the peasantry. Showing Dissonance potential at around ten years of age, she was quickly taken to the academy for further training. Her style of usage was discovered to be strong but limited, as while her Dissonance affinity appeared to be that for 'destruction' and was channeled intuitively, she seemed to only be able to channel it through contact. To that end, she preferred to use a held object for that purpose--and started training to use a weapon for those means. Given her talents, it was inevitable that she would end up in the Imperial Dissonance Corps.
She rose in rank along with her success in the battlefield, but quickly became disillusioned with combat and the military life as the fighting never really ended. However, her status changed after an information leak occurred about her actions during the battle of XXXX, which, while won decisively, involved the sacrifice of a large portion of the men under her. The fact that this number included an influential noble's favorite son did not help matters, so for her safety from the public, Isolde had gone underground as a mercenary, under the name 'Sieghild'. She was mostly on her own, though the Empire occasionally forwards her a 'black ops' job that they do not want on the record.
Isolde was frequently a closed-off person with only a few friends amongst her peers in the Dissonance Corps, but has become even moreso now. She holds a cynical viewpoint on the world, and is generally not impacted by violence the way most are. Her fighting style is notably aggressive, channeling highly-destructive Dissonance through her weapon of choice, which is frequently a two-handed sword, a large axe, or a polearm of some variety. However, this channeling takes a toll on her own strength, being both painful and exhausting at the same time, bringing her ever closer to death as the attack devastates the poor enemy that happens to be in the path of her blade.
This sounds like a good start to me, though obviously we need to continue to flesh it out.
I rather like the name Isolde, though I'm thinking if we decide to do theme naming, we'll need to do it for the whole cast.
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I find it hard to believe that a society that grows magic living batteries would ever find a reason to develop Gunpowder.
Saruman did it in Lord of the Rings and he was a goddamn Wizard. I suppose it depends on how taxing it is to cast high-level destructive spells. I assume the Empire has some kind of low-class troops, maybe a Penal Legion, that they can put on sapper duty and carry this extremely dangerous shit around on their backs. But if it's less taxing on your casters or whatever to ignite gunpowder charges than it is to bring down an entire fortification simply through magical force, I don't see it not being developed as a siege weapon.
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Liking what we're seeing so far.
I definitely feel Noemi needs to get full screentime as one of the perspectives, and enough to feel that she's the main of the mains. I really like the plot twist with "you are the chosen one... just kidding" even if I've seen it before, and in order for it to work you need the Chosen One to be believable as such, and the main being the chosen one is a nice cliche to lead the player into. I suppose you could relegate her to being a major secondary player on Isolde's path or Mirek's path, but why?
Definitely digging the God-King side of things. When I first thought about it I wasn't too interested (when a story is focussed on a country, having a token out-of-country stuff often feels needless) but I like how the setting of the God-Kings relates to the initial setting. I've noticed we've really yet to suggest much in the way of characters from it.
If we have Noemi, Mirek, and Isolde, will the folks from the God-King land be a fourth? We've sorta been assuming three perspectives from what I can see, but there's probably no real need. I dunno how much of that is just "well that's what S3/FE10/etc. did" though.
On reflection I am in favour of the four perspectives and would allow for more. I don't think they need to be balanced, though, like the way they were in S3. I'm more thinking about what many books do, or even FE10 for that matter - it's okay to give some stories more if you think that they shed more light on the game's overall plot. I'm not opposed to balance, mind, I just worry that forcing balance on four routes potentially consigns what may turn out to be the most important story elements to too small a piece of the pie. EDIT: Or, to put it another way, we are telling a story, here. We don't need to straitjacket ourselves into giving each perspective an equal share, we need to give each perspective the right amount to tell the story we need.
On Isolde: What will she do besides guard Noemi/Aurel? The core design sounds pretty cool but she badly needs fleshed out motives at this point, and needs to do her own thing that sheds light on the story while not just merely being a watcher of Noemi.
On the fourth perspective: Isolde, Mirek, and Noemi are inevitably going to have to start early. For the fourth, I'd like to introduce the perspective a bit later. I'm picturing the PoV character here being a major barbarian leader who the PCs meet on a few occasions (either as a temporary ally, like someone to make a deal with, or an enemy, depending on who meets him and what their motives are at the time), which will make the introduction of him as a PoV character a (hopefully pleasant) surprise. From there we can use his path to answer questions the player will have built up about the barbarians and their setting, including the prophecy.
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Coversation with Excal. WARNING, TEXT DUMP
Excaliburned 11:35 pm
That's odd.
AndrewRogue 11:35 pm
IRC hate?
Excaliburned 11:35 pm
Yeah. It just booted me.
AndrewRogue 11:35 pm
Huh.
Well
Excaliburned 11:36 pm
Anyways, you get my prodigy stuff?
AndrewRogue 11:36 pm
I did not!
Last I had was my question
Excaliburned 11:36 pm
Right. Prodigy
If it's that bad, no way are people not trying to fix it.
AndrewRogue 11:36 pm
For random comparison to what I'd been thinking
Excaliburned 11:36 pm
I mean, hell, way I see it, rank and file Guardians in this generation are trying to do that too by shutting down Dissonance.
AndrewRogue 11:37 pm
I'd originally been figuring that the process of actually reversing the Disquiet had been sort of lost to the process of just mitigating/controlling it.
Something like... lord, what is a good real world example
Where the attempt to solve the problem has become a sidebar to the attempt to control/mitigate it due to lack of ssuccess
If that makes sense
People still study it, but, comparatively, its marginalized
Excaliburned 11:38 pm
True, but I can't see much force behind it if there's not a belief that the person doing it can actually succeed.
Though... y'know.
Excaliburned 11:39 pm
Doesn't have to be prodigy. I mean, she's probably known to be Erastus' protigee. And he seems to think she's capable of it
And that has to mean something, right?
AndrewRogue 11:40 pm
True. I originally figured it was that sort of stuff that allowed to pursue it as her graduate exercise.
She's talented enough that they think SOMETHING will come out of it
Not necessarilly a solution, but either progress or something else all together
AndrewRogue 11:42 pm
That's just where I've been coming from.
Regardless, she's a valuable assest.
Excaliburned 11:42 pm
Yeah. Reason for hope and all that.
AndrewRogue 11:43 pm
Maybe leave it to some radical minor up theres to go "She could really have something!" while the majority are more in the "I think good will come out of this, but don't get your hopes up" club?
Excaliburned 11:43 pm
Yeah
AndrewRogue 11:43 pm
Works
Excaliburned 11:43 pm
Though I also see Erastus as knowing she can find out. If only because he's already "found it out" and can drop hints if she needs it.
AndrewRogue 11:44 pm
I figure Erastus is 90% there
And is pushing/using/working with Noemi and Co to fill in the last 10%
Excaliburned 11:44 pm
Also works, yes.
Y'know what I want? Just because I have this wonderful cinematic view of it right now?
AndrewRogue 11:45 pm
So you think he works as the final, BBEG typee encounter? And no I do not, so go ahead while it is in your head
Excaliburned 11:46 pm
Noemi's party eventually has a reason to go to the First Practitioner's Island, to look for something. And as they're about to find something, they have their first run in with the God King party
Excaliburned 11:47 pm
And their victory there is totally the thing that really cements her in their minds as the First Practitioner Reborn, or some other thing like that. But just... that. Having that battle in the middle of a Disquiet warped battlefield.
AndrewRogue 11:47 pm
Agreed.
There is 999% need for an awesome fight there. That one could well work
AndrewRogue 11:49 pm
I'm thinking that might be a good place for a mid-middle late false end to the game
Excaliburned 11:50 pm
Oh? Do tell.
AndrewRogue 11:50 pm
Looking like its building towards the finale/climax, when, in actuality, it just concludes that arc as the secret is discovered and hell breaks out or something. Not sure how to play it yet, have some ideas
But I'm thinking of using it like... Rasputing in SH:C, I think?
Excaliburned 11:51 pm
Y'know... we could actually make it look like the main plot is for the Barbarians to ressurect the First Practitioner.
Excaliburned 11:51 pm
Or unseal him, or wake him up from his slumber.
Actually... I like that.
Have you ever heard of the King in the Mountain Monomyth?
AndrewRogue 11:52 pm
Not really. Explainn while I go be wet and naked?
Excaliburned 11:52 pm
King Arthur
AndrewRogue 11:52 pm
Gotta start winding down for sleep >_>
Excaliburned 11:52 pm
Thinka how he died, and the legend of his return
AndrewRogue 11:52 pm
Oooh. Okay.
That I know.
Just not by that name at all.
Excaliburned 11:52 pm
There's a ton of those in Europe.
All local.
In the Empire, have them have a myth about that. But twist it.
Make it a sign of the end times.
AndrewRogue 11:53 pm
Perhaps we could make that the general meta-thrust initially?
All the groups are racing for it?
AndrewRogue 11:53 pm
(For their various reasons and quarrels)
Excaliburned 11:54 pm
One day, when the list of the following bad things have happened, the First Practitioner will return from where he was sealed by the however many heros of old, and tear the land asunder.
Yes, that's it exactly.
The Guardians, being poorer will be more superstitious, and their Rank and File will take it literally.
The Empire will suspect there's some truth, but will be more sophisticated about it, suspecting someone of copying the myth for some nefarious purpose.
Excaliburned 11:56 pm
And Noemi? Will likely be looking up stuff on him because her search for a cure for the land will lead her there as it's supposed he has/had a way of cleaning it all up.
AndrewRogue 11:56 pm
YAY
One of mmy original thoughts.
I like you >_>
You hit on similar ideas while getting new ones
Anyhow. BRB for reals, unless you want to sleep
Excaliburned 11:56 pm
I want to digest this a bit. Maybe make a post.
AndrewRogue 11:57 pm
I do need to shower. Have to sleep within 45.
I approve of a psot
Excaliburned 11:57 pm
Honestly, hopefully some time soon, you me and Djinn can have a chat.
AndrewRogue 11:57 pm
Weekend, it'd prolly have to be. Djinn's schedule is so random >_>
Excaliburned 11:58 pm
True. Anyways, do your shower
AndrewRogue 12:06 am
Hurrah, nudity
Other random thing while I'm thinking about it
Excaliburned 12:06 am
hurrah, toast. Be right back
AndrewRogue 12:06 am
As far as the "evil" chunks of the groups go.
(I.E. where the bad in the major players come from) I think military top brass, guardian rank and file and the bottom tier nobility all sound right.
To get a little variety in rationales and flavors of evil
Excaliburned 12:09 am
I think Guardian leadership should also have some. But mostly in the fallen angel sense
AndrewRogue 12:09 am
I also feel that, in the first half, it should be the military that ultimately succeeds (since its a little easier to go with totalitarian angle with ultimate power)
Oh, it isn't striiictly along these lines
Excaliburned 12:09 am
Having guys who started with pure motivations, but were corrupted by the power.
AndrewRogue 12:09 am
These are just the major blobs of where it occurs
Excaliburned 12:10 am
Hmm, I dunno. Military winning in the middle and losing in the end is kinda cliche
AndrewRogue 12:10 am
Fair enough. I mainly just have a less solid idea of how to structure Guardian or Nobility win
Displacement of the military, I suppose
Which actually could work quite well
AndrewRogue 12:11 am
Well. Fundamentally
One of the non-PC groups should win round 1
Not at the Kefka level I think, but definitely win
I think, possibly.
Excaliburned 12:13 am
Actually, I like the idea of an Imperial win, thinking on it.
AndrewRogue 12:13 am
It might be better to determine thematically what we want to say before determining that, perhaps
Excaliburned 12:13 am
That said, we could also determine it in a few different ways.
AndrewRogue 12:13 am
Since each win (and subsequent defeat) sends different messages.
Excaliburned 12:13 am
ie. Branching ends.
AndrewRogue 12:14 am
That is true!
Although we'd have to stick it to much later game, I think
Excaliburned 12:14 am
And have Noemi decide who wins the initial plot.
AndrewRogue 12:14 am
I mean, the idea is awesome
Excaliburned 12:14 am
Since that's really just a setup for the inevitable betrayal and reveal of the real BBEG.
AndrewRogue 12:14 am
But it would change a lot.
Idly. I picture the finale with Erastus being sort of like the confrontation with Kato
Excaliburned 12:15 am
kato?
AndrewRogue 12:15 am
Shadow Hearts 2.
Excaliburned 12:15 am
never saw it
AndrewRogue 12:15 am
Crap. Uh.
AndrewRogue 12:15 am
Ah. It is less about the "end of the world" thing
And more about the personal conflicts, like, dislikes, trust, love and hate between him and the party
Excaliburned 12:16 am
right
AndrewRogue 12:16 am
Him wanting to end the world is more an incidental factor
Excaliburned 12:16 am
hmmm...
AndrewRogue 12:16 am
To which end, I think it bears statement
Excaliburned 12:17 am
Y'know? I think... Erastus isn't the BBEG. Except maybe on the True Path, if there is one
AndrewRogue 12:17 am
Erastus SHOULD honestly like and care for, at the very least, Noemi and Mirek. Probably a couple of other PCs.
Excaliburned 12:17 am
He's always a villain, he's always the face. But he'll also always be recruited to aid someone.
Excaliburned 12:18 am
To help someone who showed him the way after he lost his family, snapped, and was privately scorned by those in the service who he thought he could trust.
AndrewRogue 12:19 am
That sounds about right.
I really, ultimately, want the player to LIKE Erastus.
He's a bit crazy and definitely fucked up, but in a charming, likable way that maintains his humanity
Excaliburned 12:22 am
Yeah... things are getting nailed down. But there's still a hole here.
Something that everything we have points to, that is the core of the plot.
AndrewRogue 12:22 am
Yeah. I think I vague touched on it.
*vaguely touched on that issue
Ideeeeally, things should be largely character driven, but we need the plot to actually evolve from that.
AndrewRogue 12:24 am
Which we are kinda lacking. We've got the big ideas and some basics on the PCs, but we really need to see where the characters go amd build the backbone of the plot from it
Excaliburned 12:24 am
Yeah. I'll sleep on this stuff and make my post tomorrow
AndrewRogue 12:25 am
I'll likely chime in at some point during work tomorrow to respond.
Excaliburned 12:25 am
Great.
AndrewRogue 12:25 am
(And obviously be around in the evening to blather >_> )
Try to emphasize that we need to start getting PC ideas and concepts together so we can fill in the middle
AndrewRogue 12:26 am
Because I think that is the other thing that could really set us out
Excaliburned 12:26 am
Hmm, yeah... it is PC time.
AndrewRogue 12:26 am
Being largely character driven vs OMG WORLD SAVING
Considering the "original" Noemi path looks like it is getting split?
Excaliburned 12:27 am
Alright, Neomi's path and Marik's are decently set out by you for core cast. Isolde's is not. Same with whatever his name is. But I'll hit up a naming site before doing my post.
AndrewRogue 12:27 am
Definitely have holes to fill in
OH
I should tell someone this
I suggest trying to divide the world up into chunks and using naming themes in those areas
Excaliburned 12:28 am
Yeah, I'm trying to think of a theme for the Barbarians.
AndrewRogue 12:28 am
West is eastern europe (Mirek and Erastus are definitely Czech or something)
AndrewRogue 12:28 am
North was more Welsh/Celtic
(Ei and Artur)
Excaliburned 12:28 am
Noemi and Isolde seem to suggest romance laguages with an emphasis on vowels.
AndrewRogue 12:29 am
(Sharing with Djinn, since he matarialized, but 'm leaving shortly)
Rather, gonna drop this in the IAQ channel
I'll be sure to actually post my name thing tomorrow.
And other things
Excaliburned 12:30 am
Well, I'm currently trying to figure out where I want to pull the Barbarians from.
And... I want it to be something different, yet civilised.
Thinking either Persian/Egyptian, or Chinese.
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I personally like Korean names in fantasy stories. Egyptian names always make me think of sci-fi names (and have ridiculous glottal stop marks and weird apostrophes everywhere)
As for something to tie Isolde to the main plot a bit more... I was thinking she could have been to the Throne of God island or something, and survived. This would make her something worth studying/keeping around... and put her directly in opposition to the faction that doesn't want people ever going there.
I imagine it might have been something that happened when she was younger. Perhaps her father was a pirate? And perhaps he didn't fare so well on the island, so that could be why she's an orphan now.
Just for my sanity, trying to list the antagonists so far:
Erastus
Potential Erastus corrupter
Rank and File Guardian representative
Fallen Angel Guardian leader
Military Top Brass (council? special ops group a la Brionac?!)
Low-end Nobility looking out for themselves (their specific townships?)
God-King Thone's "Protectors"
Artur
'Barbarian' Quirky Mini-boss Squad
We need MOAR!!~! A game is defined by its villains!
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Can we call for no apostrophes in names? Nothing pisses me off more in games. "Oh, hey, Ja'red, that punctuation mark in your name sure does hide the lack of thought that went in to your name, yep."
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Djinn: NEB made the wonderful suggestion of our 4th prespective Barbarian folks serving as a quirky miniboss squad until they get a POV chapter and become PCs, so add 'em to the list.
Rob: But... but... fantasy is practically MADE of apostrophes.
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There are no apostrophes in Lord of the Rings. Any apostrophes in fantasy are an unwanted mutation that we must cut out!
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But... but... mutation is the survival mechanic by which generations can better change and adapt to their circumstances! We must not be fantasy dinosaurs!
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Lord of the Rings is a fantasy dinosaur, on that note, and should be extinct.
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On naming, as a general request: Looking for consistency here, if at all possible here. Breaking it up regionally within the world (and using some real world groupings) would help a lot with this. Also, choosing names based on meaning and origin is fun too. For sake of brief reference at this very moment:
Noemi: Italian, Czech, Biblical, Latin (Pleasantness)
Erastus: Biblical, Biblical Latin (Beloved)
Mirek: Czech, Slovak, Polish (Peace)
Eirwen: Welsh (White/Blessed Snow)
Artur: German, Portugese, Galician, Russian, Slovene, Polish, Czech, Romanian (bear, man, stone)
Isolde: English, German, Celtic Mythos (debated origins leading to a possibility akin to ice battle)
Djinn: I don’t have an issue with jumping to an Asiatic region or scheme, but keep in mind, it should represent a fairly radical cultural shift as well, in all likelihood, since it would clearly be further removed from the more generally European major areas. And I object, on principal, to making it in the east or even tinier island nations. >_>
On the thoughts about Isolde, I personally think we should definitely look at tying her to the cast first and foremost, then her place in our somewhat nebulous plot thus far, since I think going from character ties -> plot position works better. But that’s the way I write >_>
To that end, I think I fundamentally disagree there and think, at least initially, she should be something more of a government shill. Looking at what we have so far… firstly, tying her in a friendly way to Aurel seems like a definite good idea. Perhaps his initial breakout moment was surviving whatever conflict she was dishonored at. Thus, when he was assigned to watch Noemi, he requested she come. Or perhaps vice versa. Isolde was, originally, approached discreetly and asked to be a “neutral” guard on the matter (keeping an eye on Noemi who, while talented, valuable and good, is in bad/unstable company in the form of Erastus) and suggested Aurel be appointed as an official guard. Work off the function that, military wise, she’s an inverse to Erastus, and it additionally makes sense she’d be interested. She likely has some sort of distaste/dislike or perhaps even hatred/resentment of the man.
An image begins to come through here. She’s portrayed utterly as the for-hire guard (obviously the Empire can only spare so many of their own men) and secretly reports back to the Empire, making sure that Erastus isn’t up to anything. However, work to emphasize this isn’t evil government branch she’s initially reporting to and she’s doing this out of honest thoughtfulness, and her eventual defection when her superiors do something nappy is fairly reasonable.
Working further off THAT perhaps she has a personal stake in this. Perhaps her and Aurel are close friends and she’s aware of his condition. Perhaps they are/were once more than friends. This places additional reasoning for her to be doing what she’s doing, as well as a means to press on if/when Aurel is killed. Also sets up some potential mild love triangle stuff (probably works better if her and Aurel were a thing but split for amiable reasoning, they just remain very close friends or what not to counterpoint Ei/Mir/Art interaction early on).
This, in turn, frees up Aurel as a more straightforward, crusading type who is utterly absorbed in his work, which is the protection of the Dissonant practitioner/opposing the revolution/rebellion, etc. Gives us a nice, “clear” character while complicating the main character in the branch.
Or something. I think this meshes with Nama’s post? I’ll review it a bit later.
Donald (and Rob): I’m… pretty neutral on gunpowder. I tend to stick purely to swords and sorcery in my fantasy, and thus usually work off some general assumptions that the natural laws, material composition of the world or simply the way tech progression has been stymied by magic becoming the main “tech.” Provided it can be done in the world, there is always a pretty easy argument for its presence (same reason we still have people using inferior technologies or supernatural beliefs, kinda), so I disagree there with Djinn.
If people can make a good case for why to include it, I won’t fight too hard against it.
Back to Djinn: The less complex approach (not saying I dislike yours, just giving an alternate) to providing the player sooome freedom of choice would probably be to make the linear focus of the game around Noemi’s presence and make some notable fill-in-for-what-happened-while-she-was-gone
NOEMI CHAPTER -> NOEMI/ISOLDE CHAPTER -> (ISOLDE CHAPTER)/(MIREK CHAPTER)/(OMAKE CHAPTER OR SOMETHING) -> NOEMI/MIREK CHAPTER.
In other words, keep the story where Noemi is concerned, but give the player the chance to advance the surrounding storylines in the way they choose. So, after they complete the Isolde w/ Noemi stuff (the party is separated here or something), they have the option of seeing what Isolde does next on her own, or going off to meet this Mirek fellow that Erastus was suggesting they meet. Once the supplementary material finishes, the next Noemi or XXX w/ Noemi chapter unlocks.
Another for General purposes thing. I think its time to start breaking down the PCs, especially if we’re having notable cast overlap per branch as well, since I think we’re several PCs short of our goal, but also have to account for (especially Noemi) moving around a lot. These are JUST my thoughts.
<NOEMI BRANCH>
Noemi (Shock)
Erastus (Early game “party guardian” PC, doesn’t recur as an actual PC again until mid to late game)
Aurel (Should he be quantified as a PC here? Possibly.)
<ISOLDE BRANCH>
Isolde (Awe)
<MIREK BRANCH>
Mirek (No joke)
Eirwen
Artur
<GOD KINGS BRANCH>
Fuck if I know
Yeah. We have gaps to fill in both story and character side for our skeleton >_>
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I've been fiddling around with Korean names, and I'm thinking that I'm going to have some research to do before I feel comfortable doing too much naming (not to mention it's... surprisingly bare on most of the usual sources) but I do kind of like it as a flavour of name that isn't used too often. Some of the other ones that appealed were Arabic and Biblical for the God Kings. But this is all of secondary importance right now. (Though, furthuring this idea is that the only people worthy of surnames are those aligned with one of the royal families, and they all have their family name, with the inheritors all claiming a title name also generally keyed to the clan, with a middle or true name that describes the person themselves, and is typically all a commoner would be born with.
As for Isolde. I hadn't thought about that part with Aurin, but it does kinda work with what I had in mind for her. Anyways... unlike Noemi, my image of Isolde is that she was a prodigy. Not only was she a prodigy, but she was also ambitious and career focused. She had the talent to rise to the top of the military's ranks, and she meant to do it. Was briefly engaged when she was 24, this ended amicably when a promotion opportunity opened up, and they both chose their careers over the relationship, hasn't gotten that close to marriage since.
I'm imagining her big disgrace to be having been caught in a battle where her intelligence was horribly wrong, leading to an ambush in territory that the Guardians knew better than her forces did, and was too close to a city they couldn't afford to hand over. So she couldn't run, but was getting torn apart by hit and run tactics she couldn't match openly. So she used her Earth Dissonance to tear the land apart with fissures and quakes. It was effective at driving the local Guardians out of hiding, and ruining their ability to use hit and run tactics, forcing an open fight that her forces could win. However, in the chaos some of her own forces were hit, including the very popular son and heir of a major nobleman who was in the middle of trying to rally scattered troops. As well, in the aftermath the land was so wrecked from her dissonance, and polluted with Disquiet that the nearby city had to be evacuated.
The subsequent calls for her head, were officially answered, but unofficially she's still trusted to do work and to do so with little direct supervision. She's not above being a little bitter about this, having lost her future, her ambitions, and her name while the Hero, Erastus, gains acclaim for something similar. But, privately, she still works loyally accepting that this is how she can best serve her empire. As well, and this is, I feel, the core of her character, she does not regret what she has done, nor would she do it differently. She made the call that it was the best thing to do, and will not belittle those involved by claiming they were wasted or that they didn't truly understand the risks. So, she remains fairly stable, and at peace with her past.
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Donald (and Rob): I’m… pretty neutral on gunpowder. I tend to stick purely to swords and sorcery in my fantasy, and thus usually work off some general assumptions that the natural laws, material composition of the world or simply the way tech progression has been stymied by magic becoming the main “tech.” Provided it can be done in the world, there is always a pretty easy argument for its presence (same reason we still have people using inferior technologies or supernatural beliefs, kinda), so I disagree there with Djinn.
If people can make a good case for why to include it, I won’t fight too hard against it.
All right. Just want to make sure that we don't have a world where we have gunpowder cannons on naval vessels but no muskets/bayonets is all. That's just a bit too common in at least Medieval-set Video Games. I can see Dissonant mages being the chief firepower on naval vessels.
Oh, and Rob: The Magic of this world is not the same as the "Magic" of Arda. In fact, Arda is quite ordinary/Real Terran in terms of "magic". Only the 5 Wizards can "cast spells" in Arda. Here, about a fifth of the populace (or more) has some magical affinity. In this aspect, Arda is the exception to the Fantasy "rule".
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Andy: Eh. Not feeling Isolde would be the type who would be involved in romantic relationships. Not now, anyway, though part of it is just me feeling weird about it.
Excal: Hm. We might have to go with a different Dissonance type for Isolde--if only because it seems to overlap a good deal with Noemi's specialization (Andy pegged her as Earth/Metal, so...). Not sure what other type we could go with, but given the apparent range of Dissonance abilities out there, there's likely something.
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Hmm...
Some more random thoughts. I want to toss this out there right now. PC Death/Betrayal as options. Given that we're not going to be giving PC use rewards, may as well allow for the possibility of some of our cast to go bad before the finale. Especially since we want our false end to involve the party generally getting screwed, and our goal is for Erastus to try and replicate his situation for Mirek/Noemi. So, odd as this may sound, I oppose Mirek and Noemi being romantically invested in each other unless writing heavily leads that way naturally (in which case... Mirek is probably gonna die), and in fact, I like the idea of Mirek having the romantic interest what gets snuffed while Noemi doesn't have one (she has her cause, just like Isolde. Whereas Mirek seems to be less interested in causes, and more in simply trying to live and get by while also being as decent a person as he can manage). This means we'll need more details before we know how they try to harm Noemi, but I like the idea of betrayal for her. Give her someone who is with her the entire time, someone who she, and we, can come to feel will support her come thick and thin, and then when it matters most, betrays her.
It could be Aurel, but I'm not sure his role in the plot entirely fits that anymore. I'm actually thinking school friend now. Someone who she's known for a long time, and who she thinks isn't there because of any of the grand things going on like everyone else she gets saddled with, but who's actually there for her.
As for replacements, if most of these happen right before the God King arc, then the God King arc will actually give you extra PCs to ensure you have enough for the final dungeon, and avoids character creep.
Other things I've been fiddling around with today are cults, religions, and the FP. In fact, I'm currently working on the idea that there's a common belief that the FP isn't dead, but instead is off somewhere merely resting, awaiting the day of his return. At which point he'll either heal the land, or blast the usurpers, or both depending on who you listen to. People generally agree it's best not to need him to return.
Tied into this, the island where he's said to be hanging out will be uninhabitable, and well known to be so. But, the BBEG cult will have found out enough about Quietus to have actually stilled the Disquiet there, and they live there, in an almost Flowless realm, almost removing the Flow from themselves. This gives them an inhuman aura, and renders them mostly emotionless, and cuts their sense of the other, and even somewhat of the self. However, their method is faulty, and burns out their capacity for Resonance. Which means all they can do is deaden areas. And these dead areas end up buffered by a shell of Disquiet, preventing ambient Resonance from restoring the areas.
Hmm... yes. That's it. The first plot arc will deal with their attempts to either deal with the Disquiet, which is having bad side effects, or their attempts to restore the works and will of the FP, perhaps believing that if they invoke enough of these dead patches in the right formation, they can summon his soul from it's slumber to lead/guide them.
Final confrontation of the first act involves facing off against these guys in their home base on the FP's island, and breaking their source of power there. Likely part of this will involve Noemi's research into the Quietus bearing fruit as she figures out the proper way to mesh Resonance in with this magic to make the trinity. This will be followed by short sections where Erastus makes his move, tearing apart the three parties.
Cue God King plot where they likely do their thing, rescue Isolde's group and then getting Mirek and Noemi back into ass kicking shape. Final plot tie ups happen and then they storm the place where the final battle is going to occur. Which, should likely be the capitol, with a nice 3 part dungeon.
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Oh, and Rob: The Magic of this world is not the same as the "Magic" of Arda. In fact, Arda is quite ordinary/Real Terran in terms of "magic". Only the 5 Wizards can "cast spells" in Arda. Here, about a fifth of the populace (or more) has some magical affinity. In this aspect, Arda is the exception to the Fantasy "rule".
My point was more that the Wizards of Middle-Earth could magic the shit out of things, but they usually didn't have to because they were also much more intelligent than everyone else. Saruman probably could have magicked his way to the Hornburg and brought the walls down magically but he used his intellect, not his superpowers, to do the job.
Some more random thoughts. I want to toss this out there right now. PC Death/Betrayal as options. Given that we're not going to be giving PC use rewards, may as well allow for the possibility of some of our cast to go bad before the finale. Especially since we want our false end to involve the party generally getting screwed, and our goal is for Erastus to try and replicate his situation for Mirek/Noemi. So, odd as this may sound, I oppose Mirek and Noemi being romantically invested in each other unless writing heavily leads that way naturally (in which case... Mirek is probably gonna die), and in fact, I like the idea of Mirek having the romantic interest what gets snuffed while Noemi doesn't have one (she has her cause, just like Isolde. Whereas Mirek seems to be less interested in causes, and more in simply trying to live and get by while also being as decent a person as he can manage). This means we'll need more details before we know how they try to harm Noemi, but I like the idea of betrayal for her. Give her someone who is with her the entire time, someone who she, and we, can come to feel will support her come thick and thin, and then when it matters most, betrays her.
One millions times yes. Characters should react to how you treat them rather than just sticking with you out of plot necessity. Each character should have their own goals that are serviced by aligning themselves with the PC, and they stick around as long as they think/are convinced that is happening.
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Strongly opposed. Aside from not being in favor of that sort of pathing anyway, removing PCs from the party in the endgame is an immense dick move regardless of story justification, and we're already making the main villain a long-term temp! Having half the party join him is severely bad mojo.
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I'm thinking 2-4 would be the range. In a cast of at least 15 to that point, with 4-5 more to come. And at least one of those would not be joining the enemy.
More to the point, I don't agree that it's a dick move. Hell, I've definately found my enjoyment of some games to go up because of long term PCs pulling well executed but sudden back stabs. And if the game doesn't reward you for specifically using certain people, then you also avoid the bad mojo of building someone up only to lose that investment.
I mean, it certainly seems like it'd bring out stronger emotions than offing random NPC #3014.
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The issue is that if someone happens to LIKE a certain PC, them leaving in some manner is a dick move. Because now they can no longer use said PC. Pretty much agree with CK here.
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I was wondering if humans are going to be the only ones who are able to manipulate the flow. Avatar the Last Airbender had the interesting idea that humans didn't discover bending on their own, but rather learned it from animals and forces of nature. It seems like a similar idea can work for this especially if we decide to implement Djinn's sense based magic.
As for PC betrayal, I'm strongly opposed to variable PCs betraying the party. Having a few PCs betray the party is fine, but they should be constant. The possibility of taking away someone's favorite character without warning is a pretty dick move.
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Dude, I'm curious what you mean by variable and constant. It sounds like you mean no matter which storyline you follow, it's always the same people. But it also sounds like you mean that there should be ways to prevent selected people from being betrayers.
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Discussion is available in: #DLIAQ
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As for PC betrayal, I'm strongly opposed to variable PCs betraying the party. Having a few PCs betray the party is fine, but they should be constant. The possibility of taking away someone's favorite character without warning is a pretty dick move.
And if it, as I proposed, was a function of the player's treatment of the party members? Rinoa should get fed up with all the verbal abuse I heap on her and leave, not decide to fall in love with me for it.
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All right. Trying for a skeletal outline, working with the points we have. Trying to set up some ribs in the middle. This is VERY ROUGH. VERY. And trying to hit along major plot concepts (and fill in some details where I ahve them). This is mainly emphasizing Noemi stuff, since she's the plot backbone character. There's a LOT of room for things to be filled out.
Noemi meets with Erastus and a reunion is had.
-Discussion of her plans, etc
They prepare to leave, but are interrupted by Aurel, who greets them as their military escort. He further introduces them to their attache, Isolde (and Co?)
-Erastus is exasperated by the process, but Noemi is amused.
-The party is set to travel to a costal town a bit south.
En route, they skirt a Dissonant plantation + ruined town.
-The place is clear slums. Used to be kind of grand, but has fallen on hard times.
-Noemi wants to explore, but is steered away for the time being, as Disquieted areas like this are dangerous without proper guidance.
They eventually make it to town and set up.
Oh shit, God King Pirates!
-They attack, but seem to recognize some passengers. The delay is enough to escape, but Isolde and Co are seperated from Noemi and Co!
Isolde and Co. do shit related to government, likely finding a recent Guardian uprising or something. They must work their way back toward YYYY.
Introduction to Mirek and Co.
Noemi and Co eventually straggle to YYYY. Time is spent touring the town, refreshing, reminiscing.
The group hunts down Mirek's haunts
Stuff
Noemi convinces Mirek to take them into the Disquieted plantation.
They investigate and, accidentally, encounter a pocket of Guardians.
-Oh noes.
Stuff
Isolde finally makes it and encourages the group return to the government and inform them. Mirek is interested in picking a fight.
-Consider a split choice here? Unchosen party gets a solo chapter that roughly covers the plot, but has repercussions.
Okay. This is going to be less bullet point, more generalized talk here to get the ideas out and around. Having looked at Excal's ideas, I think it best works if the Guardians have learned that the Empire is plotting an expedition to the Great Lord's Throne. They are plotting a series of attacks to disrupt these plans and, essentially, hijack them. As of now, the general thrust should be (outside of Mirek/Erastus backstory) that the Empire looks to the better side of things, so getting embroiled against the Guardian's seems to be the best plan. I think it should suffice to say that a plan thwarting goes down, and the military reveals some of its nastiness, which probably leads to another split choice of sorts. Art, meanwhile, has betrayed the party to the Guardians and sets them up in a trap.
Noemi defies the Empire, and is forced to run for the moment. Perfect time to wrap her up in the nobility. Over time, with any luck she scores a sponsor to get her in competition for this run to the Great Lord's Throne, where everything seems to be pointing her.
The push to the Great Lord's Throne.
Noemi is confronted for the umpteenth time by the God King crew. They are surprisingly happy to be beaten and leave uneventfully.
THE SECRET IS REVEALED and, whichever villainous force we've decided is stronger claims it for the moment. [We possibly go with them being quickly ganked by Erastus here, or we draw this arc out a bit longer]
-Either way, the party is scattered.
God Kings to the rescue!
Party recovering and the fall of the central Empire government
The PCs must regain their faith and stand against the evil forces [or Erastus]
If we do not use Erastus as the villain who won up there, here he steps up, backstabs the major party and takes things over, leading into the final conflict.
[Both Isolde and Mirek definitely need a major side plotline. Isolde's is probably her government hater, Mirek's is likely his ex-, the girl who digs him and the Guardian loyalist Art.]
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<MagicFanatic> Well, it's good to note it's there.
<MagicFanatic> Would you... Mind if I were to go over a character idea with you that will probably never see the light of day elsewhere?
<Djinn> I would mind if you didn't! ^_^
<Djinn> Tell me tell me
<MagicFanatic> Well, here's the thing. The idea is basically a young male in the same graduating class as Noemi. Probably graduated in the top 10% of his class. Somewhat lazy usually, but when he realizes that there's something he wants, he will actively and obsessively work towards it.
<Djinn> If you have him as an expert in 'barbarian', he could become a useful translator in the Barbarian path.
<Djinn> I'm not sure how much you've been keeping up with the story discussions...
<Djinn> But there's a proposed idea to have another path based on one of the cultures outside the Empire. We're affectionately calling them 'barbarians', like the Imperials would.
<MagicFanatic> Anywho, I REALLY want to break the trend of RPG characters parents being widowed/dead-all-around, but... Both of his parents were known for being able to use Resonance easily enough, but while his mother was pregnant with this character, she suffered a near-fatal accident. Lucky, thanks to the healing power of Dissonance, she survived, and managed to birth a healthy baby boy. The price? ...
<MagicFanatic> ...She's extremely frail, with basically no hope of recovery.
<MagicFanatic> While a normal person might be hindered by a small cold for a day for two, she'd be bedridden for a week, to use an example.
<MagicFanatic> His father would be working most of the time, just to keep the family going... But has turned to adultery to sate himself, even while his wife knows.
<MagicFanatic> Anywho, this character does love his parents dearly, and shares a similar goal to Noemi - to heal the Disquiet. However, while Noemi's goal is to find a way to heal the Disquiet poisoning the land, this character's goal is to try to find a way to heal the Disquiet poisoning in people.
<MagicFanatic> Specifically, his mother.
<Djinn> This is actually a really interesting parallel.
<MagicFanatic> That's... All I've really got the idea for so far. In terms of battle capabilities, I was almost thinking he could have inherited his parent's Resonance abilities, while a small bit of his Mother's Dissonance poisoning could have seeped into him as well.
<MagicFanatic> So, eventually, he'd be able to interact with both forms of Flow manipulation.
<MagicFanatic> So... Thoughts? Ideas on what to flesh out? Criticisms?
<Djinn> He could work as a side PC in Noemi's path, but I think you'll have more luck pitching him as a side PC in the Barbarian path, who gets his viewpoint revealed gradually and explored there. He could be introduced in Noemi's path, someone she knows. Would be useful point during the 'regrouping' phases towards the end.
<Djinn> Especially if he happens to be an expert in speaking Barbarian. They'll need a translator.
<Djinn> He could be half.
<Djinn> Or perhaps his father's mistress is Barbarian (we REALLY need a new term for that soon)
<Djinn> I think it's a good idea.
<MagicFanatic> Backstory sounds solid enough?
*Unrelated stuff*
<MagicFanatic> Well, he could have come from a city that normally deals with or borders the Barbarian lands, right?
<Djinn> He could come from anywhere
<Djinn> I was thinking he's from somewhere near where Noemi came from so they have somethign in common
<MagicFanatic> Hmm... Well, I suppose the name can come later.
<MagicFanatic> Still, I'm liking the idea of this character being able to act as something of a translator.
<Djinn> It's a role we need
<MagicFanatic> Still, attending the same classes with Noemi might have gotten them as acquaintances early, even if they came from different places, right?
<Djinn> And since there aren't a lot of cultures left in this world after the big island break-up and subsequent Imperial reformation... there's probably a very few number of foreign languages.
<Djinn> Well, of course
<Djinn> But coming from the same area gives them a reason to befriends
<MagicFanatic> So, yeah. Mother's frail but alive, father's hardworking and takes care of his family but is also an adulterer, mistress is friendly enough and a Barbarian.
<MagicFanatic> If anything else, they could also have been assigned together for a few school projects, too.
<Djinn> I suppose
<Djinn> Just...be careful of making him -too- close to Noemi
<Djinn> there's already that Artur character
<MagicFanatic> I'm not sure if it'd be possible to have Noemi and this character starting from the same area, given the backstory of each. Barbarians are trying to stay away from the heavily-influenced areas of Dissonance, right?
* Djinn shrugs
<Djinn> I dunno
End text dump.
For names, I've seen and liked Fahim, but I don't really have anything concrete for what I really want yet.
Anywho, in terms of battle, I'd say he starts the game... Really bad. Like, liability-level bad. Then once he gets a few levels, his Magic stats start going up like whoa. See that one mage who specializes in magery and gets +8 MAG per level? Yeah, Fahim is getting close to +22 per level. Now see that other mage who gets like 8 PDEF per level? Fahim's lucky to get 3. General idea, but I tend to lean on the broken side of things anyway.
Name: unknown as of yet.
For names, I've seen and liked Fahim, but I don't really have anything concrete for what I really want yet.
Anywho, in terms of battle, I'd say he starts the game... Really bad. Like, liability-level bad. Then once he gets a few levels, his Magic stats start going up like whoa. See that one mage who specializes in magery and gets +8 MAG per level? Yeah, Fahim is getting close to +22 per level. Now see that other mage who gets like 8 PDEF per level? Fahim's lucky to get 3. General idea, but I tend to lean on the broken side of things anyway.
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Dude, I'm curious what you mean by variable and constant. It sounds like you mean no matter which storyline you follow, it's always the same people. But it also sounds like you mean that there should be ways to prevent selected people from being betrayers.
Basically, I'm opposed to players actions determining if someone leaves the party for plot reasons. If someone leaves the party it should be an important part of the plot and not something that the players actions have any effect on.
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Why not? I mean, I can see someone playing Mole with a reasonably high Relationship Value, but not a Top Level Relationship. Also, someone of ostensibly neutral alignment could choose sides based on how they feel about one character or another.
Then again, I don't think that "Relationship to the current Leader" should be the only factor. I would also have a scale of overall abs:Dissonance/Quiet (absolute deviation from "balance") determine whether or not a PC will "betray" you or not be able to continue the quest. (The latter occurs with a "good" relationship but a "high" Dissonance/Quiet (absolute value).)
Perhaps have it be three sliding scales: Relationship values for personal interactions, Alignment for allegiance (both of these first two will combine to determine whether a PC will betray you) and Flow for degree of (magical) corruption. (If they become a bad guy with a high amount of dissonance, he won't survive. Otherwise, there's a chance they'd survive the game even though they wouldn't be playable.)
And, with the scales, you could get fair warning as to who if you keep talking to your Party (an option we should add). As to when, that should be constant; there would be multiple opportunities, but you should be able to see them a mile out.
Example: when you're coming up on some Corrupt Corp Exec's mansion to implement the Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique, you'd need to sleep in an Inn just before. During that stay, an agent of the Corp. Exec would have a meeting with one of your PCs just outside of the Inn. Usually, it would be a static character and the agent would remind the character of a "reward" for turning the main PC in. However, if you got one (or two) character's relationship value and alignment quite low, he/they can appear in that character's stead "I sent the message to [static]." "(S)He won't come. (S)He's too soft. I'm the one you want to talk to."
Another example would be when approaching an area of extreme Disquiet. A whole bunch of people would keep commenting through the dungeon. Also, some NPCs would comment about how they can feel it even from a distance.
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As we approach the deadline for Round 2, more and more I feel the need to at least solidify the core of the plot before we really move on. Looking at what we have…
It feels very much like we have a strongly oriented metaplot that is supported and built on by character plot and motivation, all of which ties up into a neat little package. This is a good thing. RPGs need more character driven work. So, since my outline sucked, but served its purpose, let us try and focus in for a moment on the main characters and what they want, which is logically where the plot will stem from.
Noemi: Is pretty clear. She has a dream and believes she can achieve, and works hard to that end. Although the road is rough, she has an iron will to see the matter through, even when things look their darkest. She WILL research the Disquiet and the clues and mysteries around it. She WILL make the journey to the Great Lord’s Throne to find the truth. She WILL NOT let anything stop her. When the power falls into the wrong hands/goes awry, she will free it, all in the name of her goal.
She has a background to support this and this is very easy to enforce throughout the game.
Mirek: Pretty much the opposite of Noemi in a lot of ways. He lost his sense of place in the world, along with friends, family and organizational support. Left adrift, Mirek sort of gave up, not having the will left to confront the things that haunt him. Beneath his placid exterior is still an angry, haunted young man who wishes life could return to what it once was. He needs support and he needs people to believe in. To that end, sticking him as the one with a romantic subplot (re: Eirwen) makes the most sense (and gives us a variety of motivators). In addition, as an old acquaintance of Noemi, he is sort of the ideal character to be swept up in the wake of her will and ambition and find some purpose or meaning to his life again.
Isolde: The one we currently haven’t worked a lot out on. Before I nodded off last night, I thought a bit about it and ultimately concluded that she probably wants a number of things. For starters, she wants her position back. She is loyal to the Empire and the people, but I don’t feel it is, utterly, a pure loyalty. She was hurt/angered by the way she was treated over a difficult decision and, although she does not hate the Empire for what it had to do, she resents the decision itself. To that end, it is no doubt that she longs for the recognition she once had and the recognition she deserves. As things progress however, and she sees the cost of reclaiming what she earned and deserves, she is able to overcome the pettiness and anger at being snubbed and make another difficult decision: to stand against the Empire and prove her loyalty to it and the people by not allowing it to go down the wrong path. If we play this right, she could be an ideal figure to ascend as the new ruler of the Empire. While she lacks Noemi’s raw, personal magnetism, she possesses a great deal of it, as well as the mind of a natural born leader.
God Kings: We really need to rough out the PCs here. Someone get to that? Anyhow, based on what I’m recollecting of Excal’s notes, I’m seeing the leader being… religiously oriented, I think. Probably a member of a lower, but devout noble household. He believes that the time for the prophecies is at hand but, unlike others, he believes that you must go out and do things to make them happen. Prophecy dependent on action, as it were. In addition, no doubt if he were successful, it would be a great amount of prestiege and value to his family. Thus it is that he went out to learn and explore and look for signs, and, along the way, encountered Erastus who contributed. I’m thinking that all the main PCs are somehow tied into the prophecy, which would explain how the various parties can encounter the God Kings and have it not be “fatal” encounters. In this sense, he is leading his group to groom the prophetic subjects, and perhaps nudge them in the right direction when needed. Once all hell breaks he loose, he himself steps up to take his place in his beliefs and prepare for the ultimate results.
That, I think, sums up our main PCs and sets up some spider webs over all the stuff we’ve discussed? Agree, Disagree, etc?
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Dude, I'm curious what you mean by variable and constant. It sounds like you mean no matter which storyline you follow, it's always the same people. But it also sounds like you mean that there should be ways to prevent selected people from being betrayers.
Basically, I'm opposed to players actions determining if someone leaves the party for plot reasons. If someone leaves the party it should be an important part of the plot and not something that the players actions have any effect on.
If the player really, really, really hates a character and heaps abuse upon them at every opportunity, the game should take the fucking hint.
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Well. The real question to me is "Why can't the player determine important parts of plot and thus, by connection, cause that to happen?"
I mean, isn't interactivity, to some degree, the big thing games have going for them as a storytelling medium? I mean, we don't have to make a million branching paths or something, but the concept of repercussions for actions doesn't strike me as that odd or undesirable. I'm not necessarily promoting Bioware style abuse options here (I don't think the current structure is well geared for WRPG style play in that manner, although...), but I do not see why we can't have a couple of BIG IMPORTANT LIFE ALTERING decisions that would be wholly IC for the PC either way, but can have notable effects on the game's final standing. It gives the player some source of emotional involvement and might place some actual importance on the occasional multi-box dialogue box.
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On player choices impacting the plot: I'm okay with one or two major ones, certainly, but remember it does mean that much more writing; let's be careful it doesn't dilute what we have. This makes me wary of, but not opposed, to the idea.
However, I dislike [arbitrary dialog option A = a PC dies/leaves!] situations. All you're doing is encouraging people to FAQ your game so they know to choose B.
Also I had character thoughts turning around in my head today at work, so I'll get 'em posted in a moment. Going to run with Excal's idea of having a character betray Noemi. I agree and think it's basically necessary in order to pull off Erastus' plan.
Oh and if it's not clear yet (it will be when I finish my next post), I am totally 100% cool with the party losing PCs. It happens. I've never considered it a douchebag move that Elly or Aeris or Spider or whoever leave the party. In fact, I find it refreshing to know that characters can actually leave, in too many RPGs it feels like as soon as you recruit someone, they're there, with you, guaranteed, for life, and both death and betrayal are impossible (or temporary, hi Crono/Nash).
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Give her someone who is with her the entire time, someone who she, and we, can come to feel will support her come thick and thin, and then when it matters most, betrays her.
It could be Aurel, but I'm not sure his role in the plot entirely fits that anymore. I'm actually thinking school friend now. Someone who she's known for a long time, and who she thinks isn't there because of any of the grand things going on like everyone else she gets saddled with, but who's actually there for her.
My starting point.
So I got to thinking about betrayal, and asked myself, "why would someone who the hero thinks she can trust implicitly betray the hero?" The answer I decided on was "because she believes she's doing things in the hero's best interest".
Enter Samantha. The name can change to something setting-appropriate, for now I will use this fantasy dinosaur reference placeholder.
Samantha is a classmate of Noemi's in grad school, and the two may well go back further (even as far as the Crimson House orphanage?). A resonance adept, she was always smaller and weaker than Noemi and the latter looked out for her. She considers Noemi her most trusted friend and looks up to her. She may not join right at the start of the game (I think we'll have enough on our plate introducing Noemi, Erastus, and Isolde) but perhaps after a mission or two, Samantha will meet up with Noemi, scold her for leaving her behind, and remain with the party for (most of) the rest of the game. On several occasions she reaffirms her affection* for Noemi, and in general the writing should build her up as someone to be trusted.
I picture her having a slender build and using resonance for healing/buffing. Fights with a crossbow, which reflects her lack of physical strength.
Anyhoo, Erastus is a bad man and notices how devoted Samantha is to Noemi. Privately, on one or two occasions, he drops hints to her expressing worry for Noemi now that she appears to be the FP reborn. Samantha pries at Erastus, and he "reluctantly" tells her that he knows of a little-known part of the prophecy, that as part of what the FP reborn has to do, s/he has to die. (Sorta channelling WoT here, I'm aware.) Of course he's full of shit, and of course Samantha isn't going to realise this until too late.
So, as Noemi approaches a crucial part of her quest (shortly before the BIG REVEAL), Samantha sells her out to the Empire (or whoever works as a more appropriate foe). She makes a deal with imperial officer/leader XXXX, betraying the party's location in exchange for her and Noemi's assured safety. (I'm a little sketchy on how to make this bargain believable, but given how little I know of the situation surrounding what Noemi and the Empire are both trying to do at this exact moment, I'm going to leave those details for later.) The trap is sprung on Noemi and co. One of Noemi's other companions (maaaybe Aurel? Or someone yet to be determined) comes up with a cunning escape plan involving some skill only he has (pilotting, etc.) and as it seems Noemi will elude the empire's grasp and run to her "death", Samantha surprises and kills the pilot.
And there you go. Noemi gets to watch her best friend betray her and another friend die in front of her eyes. It is a sucker-punch, yes. It is also exactly what Erastus wants her to see. (Cue "just as planned!")
What happens to Samantha from there could go in a multitude of directions and I'm not really too concerned with that yet. Given that this treads into the lategame plot it may depend on what we decide to say about the game's themes.
What I like about this idea:
As mentioned, I like Excal's idea so I decided to run with it. I also think it makes for a neat parallel with Artur. Both turn villains out of love, but whereas in Artur's case it's because his love turned sour out of rejection and jealousy, in Samantha's case it's because she loved too much. She truly believes she's doing what is best for Noemi.
I like the fact that it's a delicious subversion of the Yuna-like sacrifice idea, and this ties into my enjoyment of Erastus' twisting of prophecy.
I like the fact that I think most players won't see it coming, but after the fact they will be wondering why they didn't. Samantha isn't the mysterious badass you half expect will betray you, she isn't jealous and her friendship for Noemi isn't in question.
So yeah. Thoughts?
*I'm still debating whether Samantha's love for Noemi is entirely platonic or not. I'm kinda leaning towards not, because I like the increased parallels with Artur that creates. However I am far from married to the idea and think the plot point works either way.
That said, for the record I am totally for there being at least one serious non-straight character in the cast because I think this is a minority that is badly underrepresented in RPGs and we should be progressive!
Next up, I want to start hashing out the God-King characters, since it seems like we've been doing a fine job of avoiding that so far. They're certainly where my thoughts are turning to next, but I want to get a better idea of how we see the "barbarian" culture first. Catching up with DL IAQ chat has helped some, so hopefully I'll have something tomorrow.
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Actually, that works with something I've been considering since a half formed thought from Andy sparked my imagination.
Two things, I really like the idea of multiple endings, tied mostly to having major choices at the end of each of the three major paths. Noemi's can actually come from Sam trying to dissuade her, and Mirek's I want to come from being given the Hero's Choice of having to choose between Ei and the party/world. Not sure about Isolde yet, but it needs to go to the core of her character and motivations.
As for Artur. Andy brought up a scene, kinda like where Felius and Levin scuffle in XF, where Mirek bitchslaps some sense into Artur (if we implement duels, this would totally be one) over what it means to love someone. And, I kinda want to use this as the starting of Artur's path to redemption. Not to undercut/prevent bad things happening to Ei, but so that he can have a chance at maturing and redeeming himself in the aftermath of that decision.
And having that as a mirror for a path where the issue is never addressed or resolved and things go horribly wrong? I like that, a lot.
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Alright, there's been one thing we've been needing for a while now (at least in my not very humble opinion) that we've been lacking. A theme. A simple statement or argument that is at the core of everything we do in this piece, and which will inform decisions later on (at least, in plot/character related issues. Doesn't really do much with mechanics). Sadly, I only have part of it, but I'll state it here so it can get chewed up tossed about and hopefully come back as something better.
Theme: To do with the subject of hope and betrayal.
Noemi is being molded by Erastus and forces about her to feel betrayed by he followers, her government, and even her mentor.
Mirek feels he has, through loving another, betrayed those near him, and must learn how to trust again.
Isolde is the anti-Erastus in that while she was shamed, she is still trusted, while Erastus is mistrusted in his glory.
Other things of note that follow from this. Details on the prophecy of the God Kings.
So, why was an omnipotent master of reality defeated by mere mortals? Simple, while the Usurpers fielded many champions they were insufficient. But, two figures now known only as the Betrayer and the Assassin or Shadow Champion worked together to slay the FP in his home, where he ought to have been safe. And just as the First Practitioner is expected to be reborn, so too are the Betrayer and the Dark Champion.
Crafty Erastus knows of this, and quietly molds Mirek to mirror the stories of the Betrayer, while he tries to pain Aurin with the Dark Champion brush. Mirek works beautifully, but Aurin goes off the tracks after he "hires" Isolde to cover Noemi's party against another God King attempt to rescue the FPR so they can get around to doing their thing. And Isolde fits the image of a secret assassin much better, taking up the mistaken role of Dark Champion.
Only other idea is that Isolde's path needs to be about trust somehow. I suspect part of it may have to do with coming to a slow realization that Erastus is up to something and needs to be stopped. But everytime she says this, her superiors stop her, and block any attempt to dirty his image. Which leads to some issues when Aurin perishes thanks directly to one of Erastus' schemes. It... seems like her choice will be, not about forgiveness, but about staying professional and trusting her orders have meaning vs. giving in to her rage and deciding to break her orders.
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Idea.
Considering that we already have the big bad as our heroine's mentor, and at least two other planned party betrayals, I feel safe saying that a strong theme is shaping up to be Trust.
While I'm opposed to having betrayal/death/abandonment as options for every PC, certainly having preplanned cases is managable. But... it occured to me that there was a way to put story branching into the process. Namely; make it possible to prevent and/or recover the betrayals of the party.
Now, I don't mean like have big telegraphed scenes with A/B choices, or point systems, or the like that decide whether they go through with it. Instead, although I'm uncertain on the precise right approach, we have a system in place that allows for feeling out the mood of your characters and interacting between them. So, for example, we don't show Erastus revealing the "prophecy" to Samantha. Instead, at that point in the story, we have a spot picked out where it occurs, and have Sam act out of sorts. At this point, supposing you've been maintaining a dialogue with her, Noemi may be able to convince her to discuss it. At that point, if you stay on top of her, you might, say, convince her that Noemi would rather risk death than give up in her quest. And, thus, she never betrays the party. While obviously something else has to do so to keep the plot moving, I tend to think that we've established Erastus as enough of a magnificent bastard to pull it off alone (and secretly, if this happens before his reveal).
Now, Erastus would have to be immune to this because ultimately the plot doesn't work without it, although certainly you could have his dialogue play out differently, or tweak scenes, or various things as a substitute. Anyway, the key is I feel this is a stronger reinforcement of the overall theme, that the player has to make efforts to earn and maintain the party's trust, without breaking the established character of the backstory (afterall, RPGs are stressful things for characters. It can be easy to get too focused on what you're doing to be a good friend!)
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Now, Erastus would have to be immune to this because ultimately the plot doesn't work without it, although certainly you could have his dialogue play out differently, or tweak scenes, or various things as a substitute.
Definitely a good plan (to the whole post) and the quoted part can be done pretty easily - just focus much more on the mentor/student relationship than the overarching plot.
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Regarding "Samantha", it seems to me like one of two things would happen after she betrays you:
A: There will be a point near the end of the game where Samantha and a few soldiers block the way. If you win, you get some (seemingly see C) last words from Samantha then move on. However, if you lose, Samantha has a case of "What Have I DONE!!!!!!" and pulls out a revival item for Nomei and lets her on her way... or something...
B: When the BigBad finally reveals his true colors, she could come as part of a Calvary to help Nomei fight him.
Or perhaps C: Start with A in its entirety, and later, Samantha makes a Heroic Sacrafice when the BigBad reveals himself to protect Nomei and psyche her up for the Final Battle.
As for the theme... how can Trust be set into the current nature conflict of Dissonance vs Quiet (with the Golden Median, Resonance, being the correct answer)? The world conflict suggests balance/moderation to be the moral.
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...just to note, Resonance isn't the correct answer. The correct answer is having all three together.
Anyways, balance/moderation is always going to be the key aim for a victory, it's just how they get there that matters. And how they get there depends on the trust and betrayal of their allies, so that's really the key theme here.
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Ok, hold up. Resonance isn't merely the Middle of a Sliding Scale? It isn't the Ego to Dissonance's Id and Quieting's Superego?
Then what's Resonance's opposite?
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Okay. Assuming I'm understanding this, at least, this is how it works.
Dissonance is used to mass produce resources, but this causes the Disquiet.
Quieting is used to remove the Disquiet, but the rate at which Disquiet's removed is slower than the rate at which it increases.
Resonance is used to empower the Quieting so that the whole thing balances out.
So, none of them have opposites, as such. Or, more, Dissonance is the opposite of both of the others, but in different ways.
Or, at least, that's how I've read it. Would appreciate someone confirming this either way, personally. ;s
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Okay. To clarify things.
There is no sliding scale, nor does any one of the magic 'types' have an opposite. If anything, all three are complementary to one another. Think of it as three 'components' to a more complicated system.
As was stated: Dissonance creates the initial effect--be it resource-production or a large-scale attack, but also creates the 'Disquiet' side-effect in large enough quantities.
Quieting removes the Disquiet, but by (possibly nearly, if not completely) killing the Flow altogether.
Resonance basically restores the Flow back to normal from the 'dead' state caused by the Quieting, though it can strengthen it past that value.
There is no sliding scale, there is no paired opposition. It's basically a three-part system, of which all three parts are necessary.
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Mm, as I thought. So... still kinda works with the idea of balance, but like I said, the focus isn't on the final goal, it's how they get there.
As for the three choices for Samantha, I'd honestly prefer the simple splitpath of betrayal/trust. Trying to create something too complex just ends up making it forced and, in the case of NOBLE SACRIFICE (after betrayal), it pretty much destroys whatever worth the original scene had. The idea of a betrayal isn't to have the character suddenly turn around again (hi Kain!), it's to create the initial impact and nothing else.
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Character concepts I've come up with and originally posted in an earlier post, but moved here to be noticeable. All meant to be Isolde path, potentially outdated.
Faulheit
An Academy dropout turned mercenary, Faulheit is noted to be generally lackadaisical in nature. Coming from a Noble family that came upon economic hard times and being enlisted into the Academy in the same class as Isolde, he quickly learned that even with all that one can do in one's situation, things are out of his control. Far from taking a fatalistic viewpoint on matters, he instead drifted along in life, trying to enjoy things as much as he could. He never did pass, though he did eventually decide, partly at Katarine's behest, to take up a job as a mercenary. Eventually, he was hired on a job for the Empire itself and ended up, in a twist, working under Isolde.
Faulheit has a severe disregard for authority, and tends to do the bare minimum of work possible. In the end, he typically does what he feels like, and doesn't care too much what others think, holding a general refusal to do anything that goes against his own interests. Despite the discrepancy in their performance, he befriended Isolde in the Academy anyway. He's generally unreliable, but otherwise likeable.
Faulheit himself uses a heavy crossbow for a weapon, in addition to his Dissonance ability--having an affinity for wind. Fundamentally a long-ranged combatant, he prefers to stay out of melee at all costs, though some question whether that's due to lack of ability, or sheer laziness. He has more potential than he shows more often than not. He just doesn't care for actually using it that often.
Selena
A high-ranking Dissonance Corps officer, she was the daughter of an influential noble. Selena was sent into the Academy at an early age, despite showing low Dissonance potential to begin with. It was there she eventually met Isolde, and the two became close friends, even with a friendly one-sided rivalry with her--while Isolde had high natural talent, Selena did not. As such, she worked hard just to try to keep up, and this ultimately ended with her graduating not far under her 'rival'. She eventually entered into the military, and with her developed Dissonance powers, she quickly caught notice of higher-ups as she rose through the ranks. Her friendship with Isolde ended for the worse, however, in the battle of XXXX--her eldest brother, a regular soldier in the army, was killed under her command with many others. She grew resentful and hateful of her, and while her father was sated by the supposed 'execution' of Isolde for her mistake, she had a few doubts of her own as to whether that was really true...
Selena can generally be described as having 'hair-trigger emotions', with particularly nasty mood swings depending on the situation and subject. Mention of her dead brother or Isolde will tend to sour her mood pretty quickly in general. She has not gotten over her brother's death, notably, and appears as if she won't. As opposed to Isolde's commanding style, Selena tends to be a bit more hot-headed and aggressive, insisting on a forceful attack. At the same time, however, she is adamantly against sacrificing soldiers for the sake of obtaining victory--a bit perfectionistic in that regard.
This has not escaped her personal combat style. Utilizing a rapier for her melee weapon as taught in her childhood, her Dissonance use is her real means of combat. With Light-affinity Dissonance, she utilizes varied light-based attacks to her advantage, burning and cutting through targets with focused beams all the same. However, in her case, she is unfortunate that she requires a heavy amount of concentration to utilize her Dissonance. She possesses a rare Dissonance amplifier, the [Fabularis Sigil, name subject to change]. However, she wouldn't dare use it lightly; while the amplifier does give her a massive power boost, it's also extremely dangerous; prolonged usage would most certainly kill the practitioner through Dissonance overexposure and Disquieting.
(Selena would ideally be an antagonist on Isolde's subplot. Possibly a recruitable one later--be it around the end of Isolde's branch or at the final dungeon pending on events. And yes, she's supposed to be the daughter of the same noble Isolde royally pissed off. She's just royally pissed off for rather obvious reasons)
Gier
Gier is another Dissonance Corps officer, and a noted sadist in combat and hedonist off the battlefield. Susceptible to getting too caught up in his pursuit of a good time, be it in a fight or out. Growing up in a fairly lawless area, he clawed his way to the top prior to his forced induction into the academy and Dissonance corps, by the means of his Dissonance use and following a simple rule; "Power is authority." Due to dissention, he barely passed his academy education, but managed to become inducted into the military, becoming weary of being unable to fight. His nature, significant power, and seeming inability to be killed earned him the fear of the rebel Guardians, and while his conduct is noted to be particularly unbecoming of an officer, he had gotten favorable enough results on the field that he wasn't expelled.
Gier feels that, given his ability, he has no reason not to do whatever he wants with those weaker than him--anyone who objects, in his mind, had better have the power to back it up. He looks down upon Resonance and especially the magically-dead as anything from playthings to mere annoyances, depending on his mood. Furthermore, he has a notable tendency to intimidate and threaten underlings who question his own choices. It usually takes the presence of a superior officer and sometimes a viable threat from his own side in order for him to follow orders, but is kept around due to the results he gets on the battlefield. He is notably known to take liberties with prisoners and victims that are better left unmentioned. Jarringly, despite his twisted personality, he has a beautiful, effeminate (read:bishounen) appearance.
Gier's dissonance expertise is for [type, thinking earth or metal], and he's noted for being a rare Dissonance practitioner who regularly wears heavy armor in combat. His combat style is forceful, but decidedly lacking in grace and somewhat clumsy, compensated for by his notable ability to take punishment in combat. (Haven't decided on a weapon he'd use, imagining he'd use something particularly heavy)
(Yeah, he's clearly meant to be a villain of sorts--though having it made clear that it's definitely more him. Possibly a plot catalyst of sorts, but not a major player)
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Two neurons bounced off each other.
Just gonna copy/paste since I can't think of an articulate way to describe it right now.
<AndrewRogue> I'm idly recalling
<AndrewRogue> I've suggested that Guardians are not those who have the magical sixth sense but are taught a crude manner of harnassing the "perfect magic" under the guise of a fighting style
<AndrewRogue> It occurs to me why that might actually make sense.
<AndrewRogue> Disquiet = Area of fucked up flow, right?
<Namagomi> Yeah
<AndrewRogue> Well. Logically speaking, turning on your sense the Flow sixth sense in an area like that... would be a bad deal.
<Namagomi> Indeed.
<CmdrKing> Ah, yes. better post that one before you forget it!
<AndrewRogue> (This would also much better make sense of what makes Guardians unique and why their skills are different)
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Ok, it's a Rock-Paper-Scissor system: Quieting reverses the disquiet left by Dissonance but at the cost of disrupting the flow. Resonance restores the flow, but could also be made to amplify dissonance (and its disquiet) when used in direct conjunction. And the side effects of Dissonance by itself are well known.
I'm just not that keen into an open system, preferring a closed-loop.
As for the three choices for Samantha, I'd honestly prefer the simple splitpath of betrayal/trust. Trying to create something too complex just ends up making it forced and, in the case of NOBLE SACRIFICE (after betrayal), it pretty much destroys whatever worth the original scene had. The idea of a betrayal isn't to have the character suddenly turn around again (hi Kain!), it's to create the initial impact and nothing else.
So that would knock out Option B. (Straight Calvary)
Option A is a boss fight which, if you lose, Samantha would be all "what have I done?" when she realizes she's killed her best friend. (Remember her motive for betraying Nomei is to try to save her... unless she now honestly believes Nomei to be an actual threat to the world (or the nation) rather than merely being a threat to herself.) After which, she deserves at least a chance to impersonate Zero. This could all come during her betrayal, in fact.
I'm just saying that when(if) Samantha betrays the party, that shouldn't be the end of it. She should be either Rewarded as a Traitor Deserves (i.e. Judas Iscariot) or be part of the ending cutscenes (and perhaps herself asking the questions the players should be asking as to why the ending is turning out the way it is ("And now it's time for Ask Dumbledore!) and asking for (and receiving) forgiveness ala Simon Peter.) The latter could also be a good cap to the Trust theme. (And possibly make her available for After-Game play should we allow it.)
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More thoughts, which I voiced in chat but might as well put down here, too:
-On being able to avert PC betrayals by choosing the right dialog options: Opposed. As I mentioned before, I think all this does is encourage players to FAQ things to avoid the bad situation. Sometimes betrayals, deaths, and other bad things happen. I pretty much strongly object to the PCs being psychic enough to avert them through the right dialog options. Maybe as a "What if..." on a New Game+, but leary about NG+ style plot in general.
Now, where I am much more open to having options is what to do with PCs post betrayal. I am fine with the player judging whether Artur and/or Samantha can be redeemed.
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Well, I wouldn't want it to be dialogue options. The idea isn't to have random dialogues out of nowhere with obvious yes/no outcomes, but to provide concrete rewards for players who take the time to get to know their PCs. The general idea is that you'd have this sort of relationship option for the entire cast, but that in the case of preplanned betrayals these provide an opportunity to change their mind/provide a foundation to make their forgiveness plausible.
While forgiveness might be the better option from a story flow and thematic standpoint, I feel like in Samantha's case it's the less believable option. Given that her motivation is her love for Noemi, I feel like betraying her and nearly getting her killed would produce such guilt that she'd either put herself into exile and utterly avoid the party, or just outright kill herself. Even if Noemi (and the player) can forgive her, I don't think she could.
(I know, we haven't fleshed out the characters to this degree, but... from a narrative standpoint this is what makes sense to me)
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There's also the fact that Redemption is not for everyone. I like the idea of it not actually being something that can be chosen, and that where it does happen is the place where groundwork was laid for it ahead of time.
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Fun idea!
Everyone is a potential betrayer.
Seriously, let's have a 'preferred' path where Erastus is the big bad, BUT... depending on dialogue choices (if you're really sweet to Erastus, but say you scorn Eirwen at every opportunity), then you can actually change who the final boss is to one of your party members.
Sure, it requires making -all- of characters a little grey and conniving, but... that's actually kind of interesting.
Just some quick thoughts on how this might play out, nothing set in stone:
Erastus - standard path, he's been out to betray us for a while. If you're Extremely Nice to him, you can change his mind, and starts trying to undo his plans, though it might be Too Late in some scenarios, and one of the other PCs ends up finding out about his plans and trying to implement it themselves.
Mirek - Been abused for a long time. He finds out about Erastus plan if you leave him to his own devices too much. He decides he likes it and takes it over when Erastus "wimps out".
Artur - He's already had a stint as a crazy rejected guy. If he's not forgiven, and you treated him badly enough, then instead of coming back as a minor boss, he'll have had the time to amass some serious power. The world is not at stake, you're dealing with a psycho stalker.
Eirwen - Treat her badly enough, and flirt with Mirek too much and you've somehow managed to invoke the ire of this otherwise nice lass. I'm imagining you have to do something -really- horrible like not attempt to rescue her when she's going to be raped and tortured or something, and she's looking for revenge against Noemi and Mirek.
Isolde - Erastus envy. He was going to do this to the world, and the world would have probably THANKED him. The hypocrisy is too much. Better that the world should see how vile this solution is. Isolde believes in the necessity Erastus' actions, but she doesn't think the plan should be hailed as heroic. Of course, if -she- was to do it, no one would thank her. As it should be.
Aurel - Loyalty to the government, probably has little to do with Erastus' plans. He's the big bad, but he was initially just following orders and now he can't/won't turn back.
God Kings - Well, their decision to help out Noemi seems a little -too- easy if you ask me... they're up to something.
Etc, etc.
Also, good excuse to design 20+ unique final boss fights and that's just sexy from a design perspective.
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Well, I wouldn't want it to be dialogue options. The idea isn't to have random dialogues out of nowhere with obvious yes/no outcomes, but to provide concrete rewards for players who take the time to get to know their PCs. The general idea is that you'd have this sort of relationship option for the entire cast, but that in the case of preplanned betrayals these provide an opportunity to change their mind/provide a foundation to make their forgiveness plausible.
So, Mass Effect 2. Or KotOR2. Either way, that's pretty much what you're talking about (which is what I was saying in the first place).
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No, more along the lines of (light-side) KotOR1. However, Andy, Excal, and Elfboy haven't played the game so the example would be lost on half the audience or more >.>
Upon further pondering, if we opted to do this for every character, I figure that you'd want some gameplay rewards. For minor characters who will stick with the party no matter what, this could be something simply like unlocking a sidequest about them. For betrayers, of course, you don't (or don't permanently) lose them as characters... you could also have them learn a final skill, come back with special equips, that sort of affair, depending on what's appropriate for each. For the Big Bad... well, I dunno, there. Lots of things could happen with that.
Djinn: That sounds implausible from a writing perspective, at least without making 20 versions of the game. With what we have so far, Erastus' subtle manipulation of the quest is really the main plot, so you can't plausibly take that away from him.
If you wanted to set up alternate scenarios for each character as a final-boss oriented betrayal... hmm. In that scenario something closer to Chrono Trigger, where you can basically 'beat' the game at multiple points and get short endings detailing how this alters history, might be the most workable compromise. It's something to think about if we want to have an NG+ function. Beyond that we should really stick with just one big bad, methinks.
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I've played KoToR1 once through, and I don't think that the final boss Battle would have changed... just the cutscenes associated with that mission.
I'm thinking of a post-game mode from something like a mix of Chrono Cross and Golden Sun: The Golden Sun part: A mode where you can reenter late-game dungeons (or bonus dungeons)... and the Chrono Cross part: with any player you cleared the game with in party. (The only question is how you reconcile multiple playthroughs in your profile. How does CC do it?)
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I was thinking the plot plays out more or less the same, and that typically you have to work really hard to get anything other than the Erastus ending (since it's the official ending). And conceivably, this means that Erastus' plan takes shape the same way in each scenario, only he backs out of it right at the end due to Noemi's influence. Of course, this doesn't mean the story is over, now whichever ending you triggered starts its final dungeon/storyline. This means we're writing one story with multiple ending sequences, and hopefully we're clever enough to weave the seeds of these endings into the main story. For example, there might be certain events that you -have- to trigger to get a certain final badguy (e.g. Eirwen -must- not be rescued and ends up broken and bitter to get her ending. If you saved her, like most people would, then obviously she's not going to have a motivation to kill you, assuming we're using that as her BBEG storyline).
I imagine if we make our characters -anything- like real people, it shouldn't be too hard to find reasons for any one of them to be betrayers, even if they aren't all that fleshed out now.
Hmm... interesting idea that occurs to me now. Supposing you avert -all- possible betrayals through Noemi's sheer force of charisma... then you get the 'Noemi is the BBEG ending' where she's actually been manipulating everyone all along, including Erastus. Cheap, but strangely satisfying to have as an option.
I'm entirely cool with the theme of this RPG being 'Trust'. It's a fun theme to work with.
Re: Donald's query on CC
CC has a location where you go and all your PCs from multiple playthroughs are summoned to your party (it's some kind of Space/Time Gate thing, which makes sense with its setting). Not sure we're at the point where we need to talk post-game stuff, but we could always add a Seraphic Gate-like feature to our IAQ for the gameplay-design-lovers who want to eschew all this troublesome 'story' nonsense that keeps mucking up our precious battle system balance.
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Which probably means that once we set up the general world, our next step would be to flesh out the individual characters and find the possible motives & points of betrayal for each character. Once we do that, we can see where in each story the paths diverge from the Erastus ending.
Also, we'll have to note when multiple people betray you whether some of them can join together in other peoples' factions. The first one we should look at is who would sign on with Erastus or see him as a direct rival with the same plan. This could set up a line of succession for the regular scenario. (Not to say that these same wouldn't join with other factions if they're stronger, they still could...)
In fact, I can see that if you lose everybody (or nearly so), then Samantha can come in (after initially betraying you) and, seeing how things truly are, join Noemi once again. Inversely if Noemi goes bad, I can also see Samantha (if she survives) coming in as a substitute for Noemi, regardless of the rest of the party makeup.
Actually, would the revelation of Erastus' true motivations involve a boss battle (at the time of the revelation)? If so, we could have it be a Hopeless Boss Fight at normal levels, but beatable during a NewGame+ (or with extreme grinding) leading to some of the non-Erastus Final Scenarios (including Noemi's). Some of the alternate Final Scenarios would be independent of Erastus' motivations, though if you don't convert him the alternate Finals could be either sidequests or "Choose your Final" between Erastus and the others; but the Noemi Final Scenario would be accessed only by beating Erastus in that usually Hopeless Boss Fight. (That way, we keep the "Lead Turns Evil" option out of the reach of all but the most dogged first-time players.)
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That... lemme put it this way.
I think it's safe to say that we'd all like to avoid blank slate characters. That is, Noemi isn't meant to be "RobtheStampedella" or "Djinnie", but Noemi. She, and the rest of the cast, are defined characters. While the player controls their actions (else it wouldn't be the game), they should not control their thoughts, their personalities.
So, if we wanted a system in which every character was potentially a traitor who ends up the Big Bad, we'd have to make every character one who, at their core, was so self-centered and manipulative that they could, under the right circumstances, betray people they'd walked through hell with. And for me at least, if we had that as an aspect of every character, I feel like... y'know what? They'd deserve to die. Their world should burn.
Now, sure, if these weren't all serious options (Going back to my CT example, the alternate endings are non-canon and, at many points, bend character more than a little, in addition to about half of them being quite obviously jokes), playing around with the characters and making up melodramatic reasons for them to hate the party is cool. But as a serious, main-line option throughout the game, it's just not the right way to do it.
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Just going to chime in that, for a number of reasons, I am against the potential for any number of betrayals ranking that high. As it stands, imagining that we have a 15 character roster and things play out as general conversation has gone...
Betrays the party: Erastus (unavoidable), Samantha (forgivable?), Artur (forgivable?)
Dies: Eirwen (avertable?), Aurel (unavoidable)
That's about 1/3 of the party that can be lost, for a variety of reasons, to a variety of factors. I think that's the very limit of what we should be looking at, considering that the motivations and reasons for all these things are quite reasonable and well laid out. I really feel like pushing past this really diminishes some themes in the game (friendship/love, for starters) and, at a level, is just annoying for a variety of mechanical reasons.
Also, at the suggestion of Tide, starting an IAQ Bible for terms/characters/plot elements/places/etc in the wiki would be a good idea. I'll start it this week if no one else jumps on it before me.
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That... lemme put it this way.
I think it's safe to say that we'd all like to avoid blank slate characters. That is, Noemi isn't meant to be "RobtheStampedella" or "Djinnie", but Noemi. She, and the rest of the cast, are defined characters. While the player controls their actions (else it wouldn't be the game), they should not control their thoughts, their personalities.
Just because a player has control over some major choices, it doesn't mean that Noemi no longer has her own personality. Also, I'm leaning towards the 'canon' plotline being the one in which Noemi is nice and charismatic to everyone, but didn't manage to reach Erastus (probably because she's been depending on him for most of her life). Thus, everyone eventually ends up united under Noemi's leadership against Erastus (once they recover from his betrayal). If the player doesn't choose certain options (e.g. rescuing Eirwen), then it's possible to lose some characters forever, but this character will not end up the Final unless Erastus' story has been changed (and he gets redeemed before their big fight). Some characters' key choices might not even make them leave the party unless Erastus' redemption has been triggered. Basically, the plot is pretty stable, but there are a few points where the player has some input and can trigger differences right at the final dungeon.
So, if we wanted a system in which every character was potentially a traitor who ends up the Big Bad, we'd have to make every character one who, at their core, was so self-centered and manipulative that they could, under the right circumstances, betray people they'd walked through hell with. And for me at least, if we had that as an aspect of every character, I feel like... y'know what? They'd deserve to die. Their world should burn.
You really think that just because something can happen to a person to make them betray another it suddenly makes them all bad people? That's kind of naive. Sure, there are some loyalties that are pretty strong, and under the normal storyline, I doubt anyone would have too strong of a reason to betray their friends. But that's why we should explore it as a theme. Trust, betrayal, paranoia about betrayal... these are things I wish more RPGs actually took a little more seriously. It's not very exciting for me as a player to know that I can always trust my teammates even if they seem off. Having some of these tensions and doubt make for a more intriguing narrative anyway.
Now, sure, if these weren't all serious options (Going back to my CT example, the alternate endings are non-canon and, at many points, bend character more than a little, in addition to about half of them being quite obviously jokes), playing around with the characters and making up melodramatic reasons for them to hate the party is cool. But as a serious, main-line option throughout the game, it's just not the right way to do it.
Well, this is also quite a possibility. I imagine if one of our characters is strictly comic relief, it may be a bit difficult to take them seriously as a Final... but we can make that ending one of the more difficult ones to get on a first playthrough and turn it into a humorous option for a second playthrough. Same basic design, but not one to deal with much on a first playthrough. It could be something as easy to implement as:
"Optional Sidequest: Lyre McMinstrel wants to venture into the Cacophony Woods!"
*Annoying powerful boss appears! Party cannot reasonably kill it on a first playthrough!*
...second playthrough: *Party defeats boss! Noemi is so agitated by how loud and discordant it was that she breaks Lyre McMinstel's harp when he starts playing it for her.*
...Erastus redeemed! But what's this?!
*Lyre McMinstrel leaps out dramatically and swears vengeance for his favorite harp! He and his team of Mighty Morphin Power Minstrels become the final boss!*
You haven't changed Lyre's character at all throughout the main game, but he's got his ending now. Thus, a humorous ending. But for the slightly-more-important PCs (like our mains), I think it would be interesting to really integrate the potential for betrayal into their personalities. It's a lot more realistic and adds some depth to these PCs anyway.
Just going to chime in that, for a number of reasons, I am against the potential for any number of betrayals ranking that high. As it stands, imagining that we have a 15 character roster and things play out as general conversation has gone...
Betrays the party: Erastus (unavoidable), Samantha (forgivable?), Artur (forgivable?)
Dies: Eirwen (avertable?), Aurel (unavoidable)
Wha? Aurel dies now? Since when?
That's about 1/3 of the party that can be lost, for a variety of reasons, to a variety of factors. I think that's the very limit of what we should be looking at, considering that the motivations and reasons for all these things are quite reasonable and well laid out. I really feel like pushing past this really diminishes some themes in the game (friendship/love, for starters) and, at a level, is just annoying for a variety of mechanical reasons.
I'm pushing more for -all- of the betrayals to be optional. Or... if the betrayal -must- happen, I'd like to see a way to get the PC back before the last dungeon (including Erastus, but that's feeling New Game+ ish).
Also, at the suggestion of Tide, starting an IAQ Bible for terms/characters/plot elements/places/etc in the wiki would be a good idea. I'll start it this week if no one else jumps on it before me.
Also, you should really start text-dumping the chat logs in here, since I'm getting really left out of the loop these days due to the time difference. This is unacceptable.
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I know this is going to sound wishy-washy on my part, considering my recent post allowing for a "Noemi Final Scenario" albeit predicated by her winning a Hopeless Boss Fight near endgame; as well as another scenario where Noemi stays good but everybody else bolting for their tents (though not necessarily the same tent):
I think it's safe to say that we'd all like to avoid blank slate characters. That is, Noemi isn't meant to be "RobtheStampedella" or "Djinnie", but Noemi. She, and the rest of the cast, are defined characters. While the player controls their actions (else it wouldn't be the game), they should not control their thoughts, their personalities.
So, if we wanted a system in which every character was potentially a traitor who ends up the Big Bad, we'd have to make every character one who, at their core, was so self-centered and manipulative that they could, under the right circumstances, betray people they'd walked through hell with.
I agree with their personalities being defined. However, their thoughts (and personalities) would reflect not only their initial personalities but also their experiences throughout the story. Especially egregious actions in-game (or an egregious trend of actions) should not be totally exempted from this. Granted, sentients can have their logic vary, especially if their life experiences differ, so I can understand the desire to simplify. And it should take something major to shock a character off of his/her scripted course. Merely having a large percentage of friendly fire and/or disparaging comments could be used to have that person quit the quest, but shouldn't be used to make him/her switch sides by itself. Whether they get picked up by a faction later in the game could depend on whether they would have a game-changing event (or a scripted betrayal) in the first place.
Now, I do grant that not everybody would be able to be a traitor, or at least not for the same reasons/cause as Erastus. This does not require characters being self-centered/manipulative. The proposed Samantha is an excellent example of a "traitor" that is not self-centered. Also, the fact that Erastus is self-centered (or at least an idealist for his goal) and manipulative gives him the power to lie about being concerned enough to be redeemed and, therefore, the final boss. (Heck, I think of MMXCM's final boss and he fits that pattern. And he had everybody fooled for a good while. Zero was, in fact, afraid of something like this after Shadow.)
So I guess I shall backpedal a bit here. Erastus will probably be enough of a bastard that his betrayal will be unavoidable. However, his being the final boss may not be set in stone. Decisions throughout the game could lead to him becoming inferior to someone with a similar plan, who would then replace him as the final boss. This may be the only way he would "repent" and help you against this new final boss.
So, Erastus (or someone with his motives but possibly "better" than him) would be the final, but others who would side with the Empire or the God Kings against you you may need to get off your trail, one way or another, before facing the threat to the world. In fact, mandating that Noemi polish up these side-factions before challenging Erastus could make it so, ideally, the party that Erastus fights in the finale would be around the same skill level whether it's a large party in the 50's or a small party in the 60's.
Incidentally, I know it's kind of early to be talking about the mechanics of the final boss battle, but what is our standard party size and would multiple parties be required to either take on the boss or reach him? Or will it take the resources of all of the mandatory-keep party members to beat the final, boss at normal levels (i.e. DQ4, GS:TLA)?
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On Betrayal: It... actually isn't that naive a view. If EVERYONE in the world (as represented per the assembled PCs) can be counted on to turn on you under the right circumstances? That's a pretty nasty portrait of the world (since trust can't honestly exist), and frankly, a fairly unrealistic one. There are people in the world you can really rely on, and I feel this deserves to be reflected as well.
Furthermore, well. It really, severely, undermines every other theme in the game (as well as a lot of the characters and their respective motivations). Immensely so.
Besides, generally speaking, how effective are these tensions going to remain if EVERY PC can become a traitor in a real manner? Honestly, I really think we're pushing it with the three considered as is, and that it only works decently well because they are doing it for different reasons, in different way, with different results and are all fairly meaningful. Speaking from a writing perspective, I really doubt that this could be done in a meaningful or effective way. But we might also be talking past each other.
On Aurel: Its come up a few times, and I believe was referenced in the "Samantha" plot idea. There's been a heavy leaning in that direction its seemed.
On chat dumps: I'm making an effort to reference anything of note from chats. Repeated text dumps would be really ugly. >_>
Ninja'd, but it is late, so I'll deal with it if I feel like it.
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On the topic of God Kings:
We still need to do something regarding this plot branch, so Andy, CK and I just had a little chat regarding the character and what we managed to conclude on (some holes still need filling in). I had originally wanted to introduce some sort of character who was mostly physical oriented and we editted to the following
Basically, this leader, (let's call him 'Yiu' since he still doesn't have a name yet):
- Is born to a noble family.
- When he was born, he had the ability to sense the movement of the Flow and when he was growing up, saw that the use Dissonance magic was disrupting its natural state and killing it off, so he strayed away from learning the use of magic.
- As a young child, he was frequently tutored and learned about various philosophies of the world as well as philosophers.
- He eventually encounters the God Kings group and joins, initially at the lowest rank and works his way up to becoming the leader (details not known)
- How he meets up with Eratus is also not known at this point, but being an established (and possibly influencial group), it wouldn't be farfetched for Eratus to have met up and given him the chance to manipulate them a little.
So yeah, food for thought as to what else needs to be completed here.
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Andy/Tal/Tide/I have been whirling some stuff around in chat, here's some of the ideas that have been floated around for the God-Kings. Note that this is filtered partially through my bias of what I want to see in particular, so others should feel free to chime in.
Yiu
Believes fervently in the prophecies of the God-Kings, a minor nobleman who has worked his way up the ranks. He commands his own elite squad, now. He is a fervent and zealous believer in honour and justice, loudly proclaiming his fight for the glory of the First Practitioner, or whatever. This is intended to reach comic levels at some points, as his overly honourable self often leaves him open to missing obvious subtext in situations. Nevertheless, with his sheer charisma and battle skills he often bulls through situations anyway. I definitely see him as being a bit of a comic relief character. Not to say he isn't serious, too - I think the tone of our game requires it - but I want him to be a character who puts a smile on the player's face.
His goals are pretty obvious: he believes that the prophecy is about to come true and fervently desires to do whatever he can to ensure it does. He fights for his country and for all that is good and honest in the world.
He is, unlike the other mains, married and in a stable relationship. He is very loving and devoted to his wife, and believes marriage is the honourable way to live.
Main female God-King
Still too lazy for names. Yiu's wife, and straight man. Always willing to put her husband in his place when his overzealousness gets the better him (which is pretty often!) but lacks the strength of will to talk sense into him (which says less about her and more about him). Very committed to him and shares his ideals.
The mini-boss squad is meant to be quirky, and the quirk I envisioned for her is that she is very flirty with her enemies (we've all seen that before in the femme fatale type)... with the twist being that she's very open and honest that she's just doing it to be manipulative. "Oh, don't be silly, I'd never think of betraying Yiu... you were just so fun to toy with, thank you for letting my obviously manipulative words cloud your judgement. <3" So yes, I see her with a healthy dose of snark (which, well, she has to deal with Yiu. This should be expected!).
The bard
Another member of the God-King crew. He's a bard. He's educated. He loves music. He's intensely spiritual. He's a downright nice guy. He heals and buffs the party.
He's also nearly seven feet tall, with bulging muscles, and shirtless to show it all off. Perhaps he believes in honing his body as part of his meditations. Regardless, he's yet another eccentric in the employ of Yiu. Hopefully Djinn will have fun drawing this one.
(I'm aware this entry is the shortest, but it's Andy's character concept and I didn't want to jump the gun and start taking the character in a direction he disapproves of.)
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On Betrayal: It... actually isn't that naive a view. If EVERYONE in the world (as represented per the assembled PCs) can be counted on to turn on you under the right circumstances? That's a pretty nasty portrait of the world (since trust can't honestly exist), and frankly, a fairly unrealistic one. There are people in the world you can really rely on, and I feel this deserves to be reflected as well.
Furthermore, well. It really, severely, undermines every other theme in the game (as well as a lot of the characters and their respective motivations). Immensely so.
Besides, generally speaking, how effective are these tensions going to remain if EVERY PC can become a traitor in a real manner? Honestly, I really think we're pushing it with the three considered as is, and that it only works decently well because they are doing it for different reasons, in different way, with different results and are all fairly meaningful. Speaking from a writing perspective, I really doubt that this could be done in a meaningful or effective way. But we might also be talking past each other.
On Aurel: Its come up a few times, and I believe was referenced in the "Samantha" plot idea. There's been a heavy leaning in that direction its seemed.
On chat dumps: I'm making an effort to reference anything of note from chats. Repeated text dumps would be really ugly. >_>
Ninja'd, but it is late, so I'll deal with it if I feel like it.
Why does it have to be their betrayal? Why can't it be the other characters who feel you've betrayed them? The choices the player is asked to make shouldn't be "save that baby!" or "eat that baby!" They should be genuine decisions, not "white/black" binary switches, and if they're written so that it's convincing that the main could decide to do either, then the supporting cast should have their own opinions on that. If you continue to face down these decisions in a way a character disagrees with, they wouldn't necessarily have to stab you in the back, just part ways with you because "we clearly solve problems differently."
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Rob makes a good point. One that had come to mind, but I failed to voice properly. One of the concepts that had come to mind for a finale was something along the lines of the ToV Flynn/Yuri duel. Noemi effectively manages to talk Erastus out of his plan at the very end, and they manage to save the world without fighting. Now, one of the PCs you've simply been at odds with in methodolgy (though not necessarily at moral or objective odds) simply challenges Noemi (or Mirek, or Isolde, or Erastus!) to a duel of honor. There's nothing really at stake, but this is a personal conflict and a big battle will really clear the air between the teammates. Storywise, very low-key and doesn't require much extra scripting, but the battle itself can be cool from a mechanics standpoint.
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I feel that methodology should probably be the key factor in the game. It's not goals that distinguish the team, it's how they want to accomplish them (see: Paragon/Renegade in Mass Effect). Who the fuck thinks "save the world" is a bad plan? You're not going to disagree with that, you're going to want to see it done differently.
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On Betrayal: It... actually isn't that naive a view. If EVERYONE in the world (as represented per the assembled PCs) can be counted on to turn on you under the right circumstances? That's a pretty nasty portrait of the world (since trust can't honestly exist), and frankly, a fairly unrealistic one. There are people in the world you can really rely on, and I feel this deserves to be reflected as well.
Sure. I wouldn't say there are loads, though, and I wouldn't say that every person in the party would fall under this. Maybe have a few characters who can't betray you, but still have most of them able to?
Agreeing with Rob - methodology is going to be a huge factor here, although.. I'm also struggling to see that as a reason to betray someone completely, and I don't think Djinn's idea of a final duel works well, since it's solely personal pride - not that personal fights are bad (see: SH2) but that the motive behind this (at this stage) seems bad.
I'd say, for the betrayals, the best thing to do is make them really freaking difficult, like Djinn's said. Make it so they have to dissuade Erastus, which takes a hell of a lot to begin with, and then really screw over x-character. I don't see a problem with having the option of losing several party members, since it'd be hard to do, to the extent of needing to go out of your way to lose most of them. It'd be good for challenge runs (Noemi-only!) but wouldn't screw over first-runs.
Oh, and the Noemi betrayal, a la Baten Kaitos, seems like something that'd be really damn hard to pull off. I can't think of an alternative if everybody has been redeemed/forgiven/kept in the party, though... Seems to me like this sort of ending should be one of the biggest, since it requires making all the right moves and decisions...
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...Also, I love the current plans for the Bard. That's the kinda thing that's really memorable, in the most bizarre sense of the word.
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Agreeing with Rob - methodology is going to be a huge factor here, although.. I'm also struggling to see that as a reason to betray someone completely, and I don't think Djinn's idea of a final duel works well, since it's solely personal pride - not that personal fights are bad (see: SH2) but that the motive behind this (at this stage) seems bad.
...Well, it was just a thought for -one- possible outcome. I think it's doable just to get a slightly different tone from normal stuff. That's the beauty of having multiple options like this.
I'd say, for the betrayals, the best thing to do is make them really freaking difficult, like Djinn's said. Make it so they have to dissuade Erastus, which takes a hell of a lot to begin with, and then really screw over x-character. I don't see a problem with having the option of losing several party members, since it'd be hard to do, to the extent of needing to go out of your way to lose most of them. It'd be good for challenge runs (Noemi-only!) but wouldn't screw over first-runs.
Yes, the idea is that the betrayals are -possible-, not that most of them would happen in a normal playthrough. I think it's a great option to have and to focus on. It's really not something I've seen much of. It's just something I'd like to keep in mind when fleshing out the characters: "What would have to happen to this character before a scenario would have to occur that would cause a betrayal or major disagreement or complete ideology shift?" Knowing the limits of your characters like this is intriguing to me. For the few that wouldn't -ever- be driven to leave Noemi's group, I proposed a friendly-rival-type low-key duel, simply so that there's still a final boss fight (because making 15 final boss fights is awesome from a design perspective.)
Oh, and the Noemi betrayal, a la Baten Kaitos, seems like something that'd be really damn hard to pull off. I can't think of an alternative if everybody has been redeemed/forgiven/kept in the party, though... Seems to me like this sort of ending should be one of the biggest, since it requires making all the right moves and decisions...
I'd call Noemi's betrayal a required NG+ option. You -have- to see the Erastus plot before you can play through the game with the intention to out-manipulate the manipulator. (But imagine how satisfying it would be!)
God Kings characters:
What happened to the group that thinks that going to the Great King's Throne Island was a horrible idea and would actively try to keep people from going there? Is that a different group from the Barbarian nobleman (and his wife and minstrel)?
Really liking the ideas NEB proposed for the God King troop. Not sure what to think of the leader yet, his backstory seems a bit conflicted with the rest of the plot? But I'm liking the chemistry between the three of them so far, even with so very little expansion on the Minstrel guy.
Random name ideas to get it out of the way:
"Samantha" : Kasia (My favorite Czech name)
GK Nobleman: Ren Yiu (family name is Ren)
GK Tasty Wife: Ren Feilin (married into the family)
GK Bodybuilder Bard: Lee Xirou (depending on his status as nobility, he may not get a 'family' name, so drop the Lee in this case.)
GK "Doesn't speak common Imperial" PC: Fa Soulan ^_^
Note that I really like Magic's idea for another student character who knows Noemi from her college days and is fluent in Chinese the God King's Tongue. I propose he ends up with the GK group, but we get him for a short stint as a party member during one of the chapters (probably Isolde's) where we get our first look at the GK 'nation'. Magic called him "Fahim" or something? I mention this here because 4 GKs + Fahim = Party size.
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Oh, and the Noemi betrayal, a la Baten Kaitos, seems like something that'd be really damn hard to pull off. I can't think of an alternative if everybody has been redeemed/forgiven/kept in the party, though... Seems to me like this sort of ending should be one of the biggest, since it requires making all the right moves and decisions...
I'd call Noemi's betrayal a required NG+ option. You -have- to see the Erastus plot before you can play through the game with the intention to out-manipulate the manipulator. (But imagine how satisfying it would be!)
Wait, are we talking, like, final boss = EVERYONE YOU BETRAYED and the ending is Noemi basically going JUST AS PLANNED and winning? 'Cause that's actually an awesome idea for an ending. We need more games where you can be evil and take over the world just because you fucking feel like it.
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I was thinking more like... you do this and Noemi becomes the final boss... though I suppose either method works in NG+.
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I... guess that'd depend on whether Noemi is the actual main character or just the focal character in the story, Chrono Trigger style. I can't see fighting Noemi as the final if she's the main character, but I could see it if she's just 'a major character' in the story.
From what I've read, this could really go either way, to be honest. So, uhh, guess we need thoughts on this as an ending before judging whether or not she's actually a main character to such an extent as to not be able to fight her.
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Rob: Maybe I'm just running into communication issues with Djinn, but what you suggest seems pretty significantly different from what he suggests. There's a pretty notable line between "PCs can leave you as a result of moral/practical/planning differences" and "every single member of the cast can potentially end up as the final conflict." Anyhow, overall agreed here, to the ends that it can be reasonably achieved.
Djinn: While the idea isn't bad, using at as a finale is... anticlimactic in a lot of cases, I want to say? I suppose I could see ways for it to be done in an okay manner but, again, it becomes kinda difficult with secondary and tertiary PCs to make the conflict particularly serious/big/meaningful. Mid-game and stuff I can see far more ways for it to work reasonably well.
Break over. Hurrah ;_;
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Djinn: While the idea isn't bad, using at as a finale is... anticlimactic in a lot of cases, I want to say? I suppose I could see ways for it to be done in an okay manner but, again, it becomes kinda difficult with secondary and tertiary PCs to make the conflict particularly serious/big/meaningful. Mid-game and stuff I can see far more ways for it to work reasonably well.
Break over. Hurrah ;_;
Not all endings must be climactic. Stop being a story-whore. Sometimes just having some options makes for a fun game. Secondary and Tertiary PCs can be less exciting than our main PC offerings.
That 'mid-game stuff' you can see working far better? Those can still be issues that come up during the course of the game (or as optional side stuff during the mid-game).
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Yes, because everyone enjoys a huge anticlimax at the game’s end, the biggest most generally memorable chunk of any competent piece of writing, to fight random party member X, Q or R at the very end of the game, when there are about a million other ways to include similar ideas without dropping the narrative flow directly off the nearest cliff into the coldest body of water you can find.
Hurrah!
I just don’t see what exactly you are expecting to gain out of this. Options to have the PCs as boss fights? Why not include an aftergame special mode more suited to that? Options to change the plot around? Fine, but it can be done in better ways then replacing the climax that the entire game has built to with a number of options that will, undoubtedly, have a number of significantly weaker results.
I know I hype one of the strengths of games is their role as interactive storytelling tools, but there is a limit to how much control can actually be given over before you really start to fry the strength of the writing, messages and characters.
There are some characters I can see the idea working for! Not sure if I like it, but there are PCs it makes sense for and would remain a strong narrative (although getting a bit silly in the sheer amount of reversals and turns). Just… having it as some sort of main game option to have minor mascot character PC to replace the finale of the game? Blech.
Stick this stuff as silly NG+ or a parody Serpahic Gate type game mode that takes place “after” the game.
Also, are people leaning towards WRPG style conversation options and WRPG style plot scenes and WRPG style banter/etc? Because this sort of mass character flux potential, especially if done organically, really, really needs it. Doing it JRPG style would be… I think difficult for a number of reasons.
That, and I also find the idea of it being “really difficult” to get any of these results to be highly unintuitive, but that may just be me.
Anyone, I'll respond to other stuff later. Wasted most of my lunch here >_>
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Also, are people leaning towards WRPG style conversation options and WRPG style plot scenes and WRPG style banter/etc? Because this sort of mass character flux potential, especially if done organically, really, really needs it. Doing it JRPG style would be… I think difficult for a number of reasons.
Well, yeah, but that's because I consider the JRPG a dying genre, like text adventures.
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I've been seeing this as jRPG style from the start due to the setting. I'm picturing this as a vaguely medieval setting, and that screams jRPG at me. (This might be because I don't think I've ever played a wRPG, but besides the point.)
Also, on the mixed endings, I've been seeing those as NG+ from the start, just in a slightly different approach (difficult to find on a first play, for whatever reason) so would be happy to just write those off as "NG+ only."
As for the gameplay/character development, I have most definitely seen it as jRPG and will probably want to slap anyone who says that can't be good. >_>
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I'd like to comment on the issue of methodology that Rob brought up and its relation to the Trust theme:
It's easier to trust someone you agree with than someone you don't. The agreement can be on various levels from outright goals to merely how much hot water you use in the shower. The degree of how it impacts trust is how important things are to either person. One of the things I was afraid of when I went back to College and needed to use a 2 Bedroom Apartment. The development had a roommate matching form, but it only had 3 questions. As it turns out, being a 31-year-old Grad Student was such a rarity that they paired me with a 36-year-old former Sea Dog who's basically about half as aloof as I am. I chose a 2-2 split, but I could've had a 2-2 adjacent with him.
Going back to that Gospel theme, I've heard say that one of the possible motives for Judas' betrayal of Jesus was that Jesus wasn't the type of Messiah he was looking for. Many Zealots wanted the Glory restored to Israel in their time. I also bring forth the Pharisees, who didn't trust Jesus because he showed how frivolous many of their "rules" were.
I have to wonder how Churchill and Stalin got along during the war. Same with Hitler and Hirohito. How much trust did each pair have. How far would each go. And we all know that WWII was just the Semi-Finals of World Domination: U.S.A. vs Japan, U.S.S.R. vs Germany. Winners advance to the Finals.
Sometimes even the degree of difference we can tolerate can change over time. The Reagan/Bush regime tolerated Saddam Hussein so long as they saw him useful against Iran. When they saw him as much of a potential threat as Iran (that 1990 invasion of a small fiefdom didn't help) they quickly dropped them.
Near the end of FF7, both Shinra and Avalanche saw Sephiroth, Meteor, and the WEAPONs as threats to humanity. Their methodologies as to dealing with at least the second, however, would have them refighting the same battles they fought as direct adversaries.
It just strikes me that many Face-Heel and Heel-Face turns stem from revelations that a person's motives or methodologies and those of his/her superior are no longer in sync. (Noemi will think that Erastus has the same goals as she and would be as civil as she is in his methods...)
Yoshi: It's not so much they "can't be good" (except perhaps Erastus) but that they can turn against Noemi's faction (though not necessarily "evil").
By the way, I don't see the setting as medieval as much as clean early-mid industrial era. Not all power needs to be coal. The Pokemon world has shown us that.
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I've been seeing this as jRPG style from the start due to the setting. I'm picturing this as a vaguely medieval setting, and that screams jRPG at me. (This might be because I don't think I've ever played a wRPG, but besides the point.)
That's probably the only reason, yeah. Oblivion is as "vague medieval setting" as you can imaginably get.
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Well, since we're westerners, it's already going to be a Western RPG whether we like it or not... >.>;;
Side comment: Are there even enough Western RPG developers to really peg this 'genre's' key features as that different from JRPGs? It always strikes me more as 'Bioware's style' RPGs and 'Everything else' RPGs. I mean, Tri-Ace produces a whole lot of really similar titles, but no one's calling them their own genre.
Yes, because everyone enjoys a huge anticlimax at the game’s end, the biggest most generally memorable chunk of any competent piece of writing, to fight random party member X, Q or R at the very end of the game, when there are about a million other ways to include similar ideas without dropping the narrative flow directly off the nearest cliff into the coldest body of water you can find.
It's one idea. And more importantly, an -option- for someone who just might find that style of ending refreshing.
I just don’t see what exactly you are expecting to gain out of this. Options to have the PCs as boss fights? Why not include an aftergame special mode more suited to that?
This is essentially what I'm suggesting, only I'm thinking it would be interesting to incorporate it into the main thrust of the story for the major characters (and as a difficult-to-get-more-likely-only-on-a-second-playthrough option for the lesser characters for gameplay reasons, but also because I -like- the theme that everyone has their breaking point. I'm still suggesting the Erastus ending as the 'True' path, and simply performing the actions to avert -that- should be difficult.
Options to change the plot around? Fine, but it can be done in better ways then replacing the climax that the entire game has built to with a number of options that will, undoubtedly, have a number of significantly weaker results.
I think this option is the easiest way to incorporate it in the main story because it only involves writing one or two side quests for each PC + a final dungeon, and doesn't require us to force people out of the party until the last dungeon, which makes the game easier to balance and gives the player more control over how they want to build their party. You say there are 'better ways', but the kind of plot branching you're talking about is much more difficult from a gameplay perspective to create/balance.
My view of it is that the 'branches' are entirely optional and mostly self-contained until the final dungeon arc.
I know I hype one of the strengths of games is their role as interactive storytelling tools, but there is a limit to how much control can actually be given over before you really start to fry the strength of the writing, messages and characters.
I'm suggesting far less control than what you see in Bioware RPGs. It's a little more ambitious than a straight linear narrative, sure, but I'm hoping that we're willing to try out something a little flexible in a theoretical RPG at least.
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Well, since we're westerners, it's already going to be a Western RPG whether we like it or not... >.>;;
Side comment: Are there even enough Western RPG developers to really peg this 'genre's' key features as that different from JRPGs? It always strikes me more as 'Bioware's style' RPGs and 'Everything else' RPGs. I mean, Tri-Ace produces a whole lot of really similar titles, but no one's calling them their own genre.
Not anymore, but once upon a time, there was. What really laid the groundwork for the genre was the Ultima series, which went to shit when EA acquired the property. That said, WRPGs are very distinctly different, particularly if you look at what is the defining game of the genre, Planescape: Torment. I'd use examples from that instead of KotOR/ME, but too many of you are fuckheads who didn't play it because you were too busy with your Pokemon or your Fire Emblem or whatever other inferior game you shouldn't have been playing instead.
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Looks to me that the Western Style is the backbone of the MMORPG genre, hence the descent of the Eastern genre?
Thanks again, TVTropes!
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Not anymore, but once upon a time, there was. What really laid the groundwork for the genre was the Ultima series, which went to shit when EA acquired the property. That said, WRPGs are very distinctly different, particularly if you look at what is the defining game of the genre, Planescape: Torment. I'd use examples from that instead of KotOR/ME, but too many of you are fuckheads who didn't play it because you were too busy with your Pokemon or your Fire Emblem or whatever other inferior game you shouldn't have been playing instead.
So I'm thinking that's just not the direction this group will be taking an IAQ, but please continue to contribute ideas from your perspective. I think a hybrid of some sort would work really well. We can eschew the Personalityless Blank Space Marines from WRPGs, but perhaps incorporate some of their freedom of direction and greyness of morality. And we can eschew some of the tired anime tropes that are so common in JRPGs, while retaining their greater emphasis on character interaction and quirky gameplay.
And there's nothing wrong with FE and Pokemon. I'd play PS:T if its art direction didn't make me want to hurl.
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Pretty much agree with Djinn. Don't be afraid to take strengths from either genre, although I'm more impressed with jRPGs as a base in regards to gameplay.
I'm not opposed to dialog options, buuut I absolutely, 100% insist that the characters talk. Dialog options may prompt them to take the conversation in certain directions but at the end of the day their conversation needs to be theirs. Noemi must have a personality, not to be a worthless blank slate to be decided by the player. Silent mains are instant -10 to storytelling potential, you pretty much can't make the story about the main. It's quite possible to make good stories without a main, but it's needlessly limiting.
Also, Rob, I'd really appreciate it if you could ease off the trolling in the topic. "lol jRPGs suck" is an opinion you have a right to, but it's mostly just going to make people angry in a site that is centred around jRPGs.
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So I'm thinking that's just not the direction this group will be taking an IAQ, but please continue to contribute ideas from your perspective. I think a hybrid of some sort would work really well. We can eschew the Personalityless Blank Space Marines from WRPGs, but perhaps incorporate some of their freedom of direction and greyness of morality.
And there's nothing wrong with FE and Pokemon. I'd play PS:T if its art direction didn't make me want to hurl.
It also has a terrible combat system that makes no sense if you didn't play D&D, but I slogged through it because of the brilliant writing. Still, it's a fine example of having a main whose actions and alignment is determined by the player's actions (gradually, not immediately) who can still have a personality, along with party members that can be important to the plot without being required. And most importantly, when I hate a party member, I can kill them.
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Just since I was told to re-state the idea of a character I had... And clean it up, too...
Name: Fahim (Haven't decided which yet)
Job: Academy Graduate/Researcher
A graduate of the academy in the same class as Noemi, he chose to take up study of the Resonance, Dissonance, and Disquiet. He graduated within the top 5 of the student body, preferring to not even try to fight for the valedictorian position. Looking at him, he has a serious personality, but constantly retains an air of boredom whenever he's not doing something.
He's a somewhat lazy boy with a fondness for reading and daydreaming, but when something catches his interest, he takes an almost inhuman obsessive rush over obtaining as much information as possible about it.
While his mother was still pregnant with him, she was near-fatally injured. Thanks to the healing power of the Dissonance, however, she survived to give birth to a healthy baby boy. However, that healing was not without its cost, as she became extremely weak afterwards. For example, if a small cold would inconvenience anyone else for a day, maybe two, she'll be bedridden for no less than a week. She still retains a positive light on life, even if she spends most of it bedridden anymore. His father works in-town, and he works HARD to keep that small family going, but he's also a human male. As such, since his wife is too weak for it, he has taken a Barbarian mistress.
As said before, Fahim is a somewhat lazy boy... But one of his life's goals is to try to heal the Disquiet within his mother's body, as even though he wasn't born yet, he feels responsible for her pain somewhat. So, he's studying to heal the Disquiet, like Noemi. However, unlike Noemi's desire to heal the land's Disquiet, (this character) is working towards a cure for the Disquiet poisoning people.
He's not much in battle, inactivity has left him physically below average. He even has trouble with most weapons, preferring things like daggers, or whatever can boost his innate magical ability. His power of observation is second-to-none, however, letting him discern how just about anything works with a simple glance. Fahim's ability to manipulate the Flow on both sides is also incredible, even if he doesn't put a lot of effort into letting anyone else see it. Thanks to his father taking in that mistress, he's also become quite proficient/fluent in the Barbarian's language, and has a decent understand of their culture, as well.
Thoughts? Criticisms? Clarifications needed?
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Magic.
I like Fahim better.
Race should remain constant as humans are the only ones around here. ^_~ Concept is interesting, the mistress addition might be a little too much pending how much screentime we can dedicate, since that's an odd thing all told. The idea is sound.
Character motivation is solid and works well. It jives well with Noemi's and the main plot, which I feel is key for tertiary PCs.
Honestly, looks good as a rough sketch.
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Thanks - edited to suit the vote that pushes me off the fence.
Also, the mistress being there is mostly an excuse for Fahim to know the Barbarian's tongue and some of their culture, really.
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It probably works as a drop if we're careful with it? Or if we more carefully establish, that, regionally, it isn't that weird a thing.
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Alternately, we just don't make a big deal of his backstory. He just acts accordingly. He can hold strong convictions about curing -people- of Disquiet and we really just don't say anymore about it until Noemi or someone asks. We can make his backstory the main focus of his character quest.
I mean, he'll have enough to do with being a translator -and- someone who went to school with Noemi.