The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: superaielman on January 22, 2010, 06:02:13 AM
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Alright, here's the final barrier to what gets into the RPGDL. There's three questions...
1. Have you played this game?
2. Rank it?
3. Why or why not?
Some good reasons not to rank a game...
A. Not enough voters at the RPGDL.
B. Too hard to compare them to other RPG characters (assuming you've seen them that is).
C. Not interesting enough (i.e. boring in a duel and not much to write about them)
D. Other (please specify)
2/3 support (66.66...%) is needed for a game to be ranked. Each character in the game also needs 66%- IE if Wild ARMs 5 is ranked with 95% of the voters but only 15% support ranking Volsung and the rest no/abstain on him, he won't be ranked.
The games this time:
Persona 4 bosses
Wild ARMs XF
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P4 Bosses
Yes
Yes (Whatever people want to see, I am perfectly fine with anything.)
I think that Persona 4's popularity can really only go up. I would request that if anyone wants to say no on any specific boss to at least consider why other people think they're a good idea and at least consider changing their mind.
WAXF
No
Abstain
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Persona 4 bosses
Yes
Yes
Killer, Kunino. Killer is obvious, Izanami is the final boss and has more than enough plot to justify ranking her; she's the final boss from a somewhat successful recent game. I don't think she's Bluelike, she is on the Souji/Yuna/Lady level of being very good but not unbeatable and I'm not too concerned about any draw/vote split. Kunino... sure, why not? He's got the plot and the boss form doesn't have anything to object to. EDIT: Izanami to no, an airtight formchain is probably too much.
Mitsuo the hero is a massive DL headache and pretty minor plotwise, I'll pass. Shadows are very good in game fights but meh to the idea of ranking them. Eye is the game's Necron so I'll also pass there.
Wild ARMs XF
Yes, partial
Yes
Strong group playership and a high interest game. I have plenty of concerns here, but that combo should keep it afloat at worst. It's easy enough to access as well, if you have the console. Rank the PC's, Rupert, Chelle, Weisheit, Charlton. No piedras. No to the final (We tend to wait on spoilery finals for a reason and we have several people playing this now), no to Asgard who is Bluelike. If I'm missing any other reasonable boss ranks, poke me and I'll edit it in. Those four are there for almost the entire game and have a fairly strong plot presence+fight more than once, so they make ideal ranks. Piedras... right, no. If he doesn't have any more plot than the few snippets he gets midgame, I'll pass.
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Persona 4 bosses
Yes
Yes
Rank PCs, Killer, Izanami, Ameno-Sagiri. No to Kunino-Sagiri and Mitsuo.
Wild ARMs XF
No
Abstain
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(Spoilers, duh.)
Wild ARMs XF
Yes, playing it right now.
Yes.
Rank PCs. Abstain on Rupert. Currently no to most other bosses. Extended boss ramblings:
Rupert... is weird, but neat enough that it may make up for it. His speed does not approach 0 due to a Decelerate / Cancel Strike lynch mob as his support goes away, at least! He doesn't really get credit for his speed tripling in the DL but it kind of evens out and he stays "fast" regardless which is actually fair. Main worry is that, since Maximum Risk is completely and utterly badass if you damage him even a little, HP-respect changes how good a dueler he is *dramatically*. He's only High Heavy with .7xPCHP but would be a strong Godlike with 1.3x PCHP, for example, since it's hard to double-turn him, leaving the OHKO (or the MP-bust or badass buffs/debuffs) as the main way of dealing with him.
Chelle... well, see my most recent post in the WA:XF topic ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,719.msg94786.html#msg94786 ). She loses to FE9 Oscar and FE9 Jill because they can't be shoved. If given full Predator Strike credit she's insane, yes, but this is extremely avoidable in-game. And likely shouldn't work on bosses (Anti-Knockback is on almost every boss). The potential respect split between "Godlike" and "Low Middle" is too huge.
Eisen is a no. Massive flavor collision here since the mechanic of "kill him and you lose!" translates really badly to the DL.
Weisheit... since he's not listed near Asgard I assume he has a later form? I'd vote no on the last form I saw, which is heavily dependent on movement and the kind of battlefield fought on, since if you can get an obstacle between you and Weisheit he's kinda helpless and doesn't have his OHKO damage.
Asgard's already been covered. This applies to everyone but WA:XF is a system that has Rob Turn and Cancel Strike and Decelerate. It's easy to take into account, say, killer buffs or support spells - make boss HP worse if you have great buffs, make boss offense worse if cheap and easy HP+30% items are handed out like candy. But XF makes me tempted to scale *speed* somehow to reflect the fact that Asgard does not really take turns unless you let him. He's Ubergodlike naively, sure, and Light if given the worse-than-Kongol speed he deserves. It's a mess I'd rather avoid.
Piedras feels like too minor a character.
Charlton... I just fought the last fight with Charlton. Way cool fight, but since I beat him without ever actually taking any offensive action against him, I have to lean "no" for ranking him. His second form seems the most rankable - summoning zombie support is pretty cool and rewards MT - but also has the problem I mentioned about Asgard that once the lynch mob sets in those counters are the only turns he's seeing. Makes it hard to get too close a feel for what his capabilities are (stat topic claims Energy Drain gets better the lower HP he has, but I only saw him use Energy Drain at very high HP before he lost all his turns).
The final... I have a good guess as to who it is, and yeah, let's not rank that kind of spoiler.
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Persona 4
1. No
2. Yes to Killer, Mitsuo, Kunino. No to everyone else.
Wild Arms XF:
1. Yes.
2. Yes. TONY, Clarissa, Levin, Felius, Alexia, Ragnar, Labby, Chelle, Rupert, Charlton, Weisheit. No to everything else.
A special no segment to Piedras, who is just a random giant monster who appears and is really minor and you only fight him once and he can only function in sand! The Arena isn't sand! Okay, the last reason is bad.
Eisen is unrankable to me.
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Persona 4:
Rank De Killer. No to the eye and PC shadows. Abstain on other bosses... I feel unqualified to decide on whether their issues balance out their plot relevance so I'll leave that to the players. I am open to arguments on those three (Kunino, Izanami, Mitsuo), in either direction.
Wild Arms XF:
Rank the PCs (including Tony, not including generics). Rank Weisheit, Rupert, Chelle, Charlton. Not ranking Charlton is completely inane given his role in the plot. Same's basically true of Rupert and Weisy. Don't buy Snowfire's arguments on Chelle, and List backs me up that basically everyone seems to see her as Godlike, so her respect split if any seems pretty negligible (less than every single VP2 boss!).
I really badly want to rank Katrina at some point but agreed that it's too soon. Definitely a project of mine for the future. S/he is an awesome character and very memorable boss fight.
EDIT: And yeah, Asgard is "fuck no", Eisen and Piedras are "meh" even before Eisen's arguable issue. Samille and El Jackson are totally 100% rankable though. *nodnod*
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I think that Persona 4's popularity can really only go up. I would request that if anyone wants to say no on any specific boss to at least consider why other people think they're a good idea and at least consider changing their mind.
And I think if you make a statement like this you should present a real argument besides 'its popularity can only go up'. The time when Persona 4 was ranked when I supported the bosses (and Tai gave me information on all of them) I never heard anything about the PC Shadows for example. I've seen the scenes where you fight them and I dunno. I feel it is the burden of proof of the person who wants these people ranked to make those arguments with regards to their ranking.
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P4 bosses
Yes, I've played it.
Yes to Mitsuo, Killer, PC shadows except Rise, Kunino-Sagiri. Abstain(leaning toward no, may change this) on the rest.
Personally, I don't understand why people don't want to rank the Shadows. They're very plot important, most of them are interesting duelists, and they are clearly separate from the PCs when they fight you as shown by the scenes before and after the fight where both the PC and Shadow are in the same place at the same time. I heard some rumblings kinda secondhand about plot fusion arguments but frankly, if anything has an argument for being a plot fusion it's the PCs themselves, not the Shadows.
Wild Arms XF
Played but never bothered to finish.
Abstain, I kinda feel like the drawing may be too low but not strongly enough to actually say no to it.
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P4 Bosses
Played
Yes - Mitsuo, Killer, Hippy
Abstain - Everything else.
XF
Played
Yes - PC Cast including Tony, Rupert, Charlston, Chelle, Weisheit.
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Persona 4 bosses
1. Played it.
2. Rank 'em.
3. Adachi Tohru (aka Killer) only. Abstain on Mitsuo's Shadow. No to all other bosses. As mentioned I'm increasingly iffy on Izanami, PC Shadows are... well, aspects of the PCs (nevermind that Chie and Yosuke's shadows are puny, unmemorable tutorial fights and Rise's is a plot battle), Kunino... well, I've always felt, watching that scene, that it's a funky case of possession, and if he doesn't count as that character, then he's Necron. Ditto for Ameno.
Wild ARMs XF
1. Played it.
2. Rank it.
3. Rank everything. If something objectionable is close to getting in, I'll edit in exclusions later.
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Persona 4 bosses
Yes to the Killer. Abstain on Kunino. No to anything else. I can see the argument for Izanami but Strong High Godlike w/ arguments to be too strong (Throw in some potential invincibility arguments to hurt my head!) combined with me wanting to completely forget any plot that started with Ameno makes me still say no. Oh, on PC Shadows...yeah, semi alternate versions of the PCs. Avril was something of a special case where...if you weren't going to rank both, you were going to get Light versus Godlike vote split, and IQA had notably more plot bearing than Shadow PCs.
Wild ARMs XF
Yes.
Yes. PCs, Chelle, Rupert, Charlton, Weisheit. Yes to Piedras for all that it seems pointless! No to anything else.
Snowfire, on the Decelerate/Cancel Lynch Mob, yeah, you probably could try to set up in this manner. Just...means that you need to be using Decelerate on a number of PCs (Given the numerous, numerous variety of things I'd rather have than Decelerate, it's a notable thing), and have a lot of spare MP for Levin to use. Given that I was generally using Levin's awesome speed and move and the ridiculousness that is Blast to pound away on the large number of enemies that generally inhabit bosses' areas, this would actually be a minus tradeoff considering the whole map, IMO. And then, you are focusing on attacking bosses with plain physical attacks which are lackluster damage wise and can miss! However, You do bring up an interesting point on Chelle versus other bosses, but...that still gives her 65% damage or something? Combine that with awesome speed and non-fail durability (at least in my eyes), and I'm not seeing the Middle/Godlike split. Throwing out PB against bosses (And there are some obviously where it's just not going to work-- Zophar/Myrias/Jade/other giant things aren't going to be pushed back) makes me think that she'd be a low Godlike, maybe a borderliner (She'd punish PC laden Heavy, and does fairly well overall against a good number of Godlike PC).
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Consensus that Izanami is good but not good enough to be overpowered has seemed pretty fucking airtight to me so far. Show me someone who has actually called her bluelike, rather than saying "well I could kinda sorta see it if you fudged the numbers like so".
IMO, either pay better attention to what exactly people are saying, or make your decision based off your own PERSONAL view of her ability, rather than what other people think that other voters MIGHT do.
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P4 Bosses
Yes
Yes
Killer, Izanami, Kunino, Mitsuo. Abstain on Shadows and Ameno.
WAXF
Partially finished
Yes to all PCs, Generics, Chelle, Charlton, Rupert, Weisheit, Final
I doubt we'll get the support here, but WAXF generics are awesome, so I figured I'd throw some support to them so I can say I did. Don't really have a problem with ranking spoiler boss here.
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Ok. To preface and put some general thoughts on the bosses entirely, here we go. I am going to go through each and every boss, and discuss them in an objective way for ranking. Hopefully, this will help the people who haven't played the game an idea of what these bosses even represent.
MASSIVE SPOILERS, DUH!!! I WILL BE USING THE FRUE NAMES OF CHARACTERS HERE!!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!! I WILL PROVIDE SPOILER NAMES FIRST IN LARGER FONT, SO READ AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION!!!
Bosses that Have a Strong Reason to be Ranked (a.k.a., the Ones I Really Think Should be Ranked Above all Others), in Descending Order
Bored Sociopath (Tohru Adachi)
The Plot: This is the most obvious rank. The character is present from the start of the game (He's like the 5th person you meet). He has large interactions with the party and the world, and is exceptionally important in understanding the story, especially enroute to the frue ending. I have the least to say about her, since there should be no concerns about him, based on plot.
The Good: No real interpretation issues (very straightforward). Relatively decent boss. Major plot player. Seen throughout the game, doesn't come out of nowhere.
The Bad: Respect might vary slightly. Possibly not as well-known as the next one, due to being on a technically optional ending.
Hippie Jesus (Taro Namatame)
The Plot: Ok, first relatively odd one. Hey-Zeus is present since the start of the game, at least in backstory. You know the first murder was related to him, and you get glimpses of him throughout the game. This culminates with the 2nd climax of the story, when a character is kidnapped. As for his boss form, it is him. Hey-Zeus's boss form is called Kunino-Sagiri, the Goddess of the Fog. It has his same voice, attitude. Building it into the entire plot, where Ameno-Sagiri is the God of Fog and the direct result of Cabbage Man's push to annihilate the world, Hey-Zeus is the subservient (hence Goddess instead of God) - indirectly, he is assisting Cabbage Man in creating the fog. The boss form is not his Shadow - it is him. One of the stated powers of the persona is that it can manifest the way you want it. Fueled by Hey-Zeus's desire to "save" people, he becomes a "Messiah", with a halo and giving a peace sign. Shadows, as stated, ARE the Persona of a person, in it's most basic form, and Hey-Zeus doesn't let them take over him - he clearly knows after battle what he did. He used the power of the persona to become what he thought he was - it didn't overtake him, he clearly was using it and in perfect mind ("I...I'm going to save her! Don't interfere!"). There's also a huge infodump after the fight, and you realize he was a bigger player than you thought - things do piece together, and he's vital in deciphering who the real villain is.
The Good: Memorable boss fight. Relatively important player. The ONLY non-Shadow boss on this list that everyone faces (so he has the MOST exposure, no matter what), so if you're looking for major plot bosses with the most exposure, this is him. HIPPIE FREAKING JESUS.
The Bad: Respect varies a bit, and doesn't probably translate as well as you'd expect. Not as present as Cabbage Man is in the plot.
Arkham Asylum Inmate (Izanami)
The Plot: The orchestrator of the game, Deadite is very akin to Beatrice in Wild ARMs 3. You meet Deadite as the 4th person in the game, and you also see her in your dreams (the fog battle near the start of the game - you see the outline of him). Talk to the Attendant, and he'll actually provide hints on the identity of Deadite. She is alluded to throughout the game. She is the most obscure major boss, but easier to find than Loki without a guide. Not too much to say else, as the plot is generally straightforward here.
The Good: Strong boss. Important, final boss of the game. Relatively interesting for a Godlike boss, and generally not broken. Very straightforward boss to interpret, overall.
The Bad: Is relatively obscure compared to the other two. May be construed by some interpretations as too powerful.
Bosses that have a good case for being ranked, but are not as important as the aforementioned ones, and thus, can be done without
Visine Commercial (Ameno-Sagiri)
The Plot: More of a mechanism than a player, Ben Stein was created secondary to the desires of a certain guy with a love for cabbage. Ben is NOT a part of a crazy Goddess, but a being created to carry on the will of the "test subject". As noted, the plot on Ben is not very deep for it itself, though it is important to the story. It is more of a summoned force, akin to Cloud of Darkness (in fact...very much like Cloud of Darkness).
The Good: Great, interesting boss (loses to PCs, beats bosses, in Godlike!). Exceptionally memorable fight.
The Bad: May be construed as too powerful. Not extremely big on plot throughout the game. Not a part of the required ending, so seen less than the Hippie.
Bosses that I honestly don't feel strongly about, but won't be exceptionally irked if they make it in
Fetus (Shadow Mitsuo)
The Plot: Fought at the height of the first major climax of the game. I'd like to state again that Mitsuo and Mitsuo's Shadow ARE separate. Mitsuo rejects his shadow, unlike the rest, and they are clearly different (similar to the PC shadows). Not much else to say here.
The Good: Exceptionally memorable and interesting (as Djinn said, a great mascot of sorts).
The Bad: Not a particularly important plot person (the Shadow...the character, Mitsuo, is...barely relevant early, kind of mid-game).
Bosses I have no really support for ranking
The Other Shadows (Shadow Yosuke, Chie, Yukiko, Kanji, Rise, Teddie, Naoto)
The Plot: Clearly, the Shadows are GONE after the fights, becoming the character personas (as the plot states). These are more akin to dungeon bosses than major plot bosses. While very interesting, and generally very memorable (except for Shadow Yosuke and Chie, the two here I would be the absolute LEAST in support of), it's very akin to ranking, say, all the Brionac members in Wild ARMs 4.
The Good: Interesting and generally memorable.
The Bad: Not heavily important to the plot.
So, where do I THINK we should go with these?
The most important ranks: Sociopath, Hippie, Inmate.
Good, but not necessary rank: Visine
Ok, but not necessary rank: Fetus
Eh, probably not good to rank: The other Shadows
So, I meant to get this out earlier for people to look at, but my internet crashed around midnight ;_; I hope that helps.
Anyway:
Persona 4 Bosses
Rank: Sociopath, Hippie, Inmate. Abstain on Fetus and Visine (may change later). No to the other bosses.
Wild ARMs XF
Rank: Clarissa, Felius, Labyrintha, Tony, Levin, Ragnar, Alexia, SAMUEL L JACKSON, Rupert, Eisen, Chelle, Piedras, Charlton, Weisheit, Fear Clymsian
Boot Asgard (Bluelike, as I have heard everyone say)
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P4: Rank Killer, both Sagiris, Izanami and Mitsuo. Abstain on PC shadows.
WA XF: PCs and Rupert, Chelle, Weisheit, Charlton. Abstain on everything else.
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In regards to MF's concept of Deadite not being too powerful...well, let's see if I can do this:
Average HP = 540 (you could argue this goes up with HP boosters by an average of about 15% as some are storebought, to 620 average HP - or you could argue just using Kanji/Chie/Yosuke, a good party with the 4 highest HP totals along with Soji in the group)
Average Damage = 400 (to randoms)
+Charges, Kajas, Kundas = ~1000 (to randoms - obviously, these take a turn, so factoring that in, about 800)
Average per turn = 3200
All forms of Deadite act last, so I am assuming they will here.
First form is 3500 HP, so 44% PCHP to most (defenses probably place her at about 60%, and evade of 30% probably gets her close to 80% on average). Assuming the first form is killed in one hit (it is relatively frail if you take the "standard" view of boss HP or a harsher view), it gets 3 invincible actions, so Mind Charge-Megidolaon-Megidolaon for 1150 damage (2.13x PCHP or 1.85x PCHP). I've never seen her use Mind Charge in this state, but I have been told she can. The form halves physicals and immunes light/dark, so it might provide some more survivability in certain instances.
Second form is 8000 HP, so exactly 100% PCHP to most. Defenses and evasion are worse than the first form, so boost to about 120% total, all factored in. Adds electric absorption to the physical and light/dark defenses from above (poor Kanji ;_;). Assuming she dies in 2.5 turns as per average, she gets off 4 attacks (double-acting). She gets 2 off of full HP attacks, 2 off of 50% HP attacks. Her best is 620 (Mind Charge-Kuro Ikazuchi) in both phases (2.3x PCHP or 2x PCHP), assuming you don't allow full free reign of attacks.
Her total damage off both forms is 2400, assuming she gets off only the 5 aforementioned sequences. This totals 4.44x PCHP or 3.87x PCHP. She has other tricks (status, stat-breaks) as well.
A strong Godlike, but, assuming this is how normal (i.e., not me) people see things working out, not too different from some other Godlikes we have.
Feel free to correct me if I missed anything major in the normal views of things.
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P4 Bosses: (Spoilers. You expecting different?)
Yes to Izanami, Ameno-Sagiri, Kunino-Sagiri, Killer, and The Hero/Fetus. Abstain leaning no on Shadows.
The fights with the latter two are memorable and neither are overpowered to me (even with interps more in line with the rest of the DL). Izanami's a mid-high Godlike, so is Ameno (if he isn't lower. I forget when limits tick in for him). I can't really object to either.
Hard yes to Kunino, Killer, HeroFetus. All three are NPCs presented through the plot, each has oh I don't know -an entire dungeon- devoted to taking them specifically down to end the investigation, and one that's made by their own will arguably (well, not Kunino, but Kunino cheated kinda) (so does Izanami), each has a major impact, each have legit dueling forms.
Okay. Shadows. For one, as a reminder, they -become the Personas- that the cast uses. I have issues there alone. Yes, in the Dream World they're separate (and Izanami plot at the end makes it querulous as to whether or not they're actually based off of the people they're Shadows of, or just mockeries/what people want to see). But... while there's plot behind each one/memorability, there's just issues regarding whether or not they actually are the PCs. Yes, they can stand apart from the PCs, but I'm not sure they're independent of each other enough. Abstain.
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OK: Average damage assuming Hassou Tobi is more like 300. Stat mods would roughly double that factoring in the wasted turns, yeah.
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300? I was assuming it's higher, and was factoring in a 12.5% HP loss (since Arms Master on Yoshitsune is easy), and the damage it deals is 1000 or so. So 1000+250*3 (assuming boosted offense) = 580 or so average, 510 assuming a HP penalty for Hassou Tobi. I actually underestimated that a bit, as with boosts it is about 1000 (900 or so?). This barely matters, as the first form still dies in one hit to most, with the second one still only getting 2 attacks off.
Unless I'm mis-interpreting.
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The DL-legal average -factoring in- Hassou Tobi is like 279. How higher than that it gets depends on what you factor and how - Auto-Mataru is fair game for a three-turn average (you only need it on Souji, but not sure you can factor both that and Hassou Tobi together in the same turn - even if Yoshi can have Auto-Mataru, I'm pretty sure it'd be a mess to do), but there are various factors as well - higher levels lower all of Izanami's stats, lower levels (which many people seem inclined to take, sometimes to dangerous degrees due to LitGS syndrome in P4) will boost her more than the mere HP/defense averages would imply. There's some degree of leeway there - although I'm firmly in the camp of "Izanami besides the invinco and formchaining is actually kinda frail", but I'm also harsher on bosses than almost anyone in the group.
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Oh, I see - I'm not assuming the DL-legal average - I'm assuming a more in-game one, auto-Tarus, kaja/kunda, assuming people skip keeping the Boosts on characters for the Amp and a +50% accessory for more damage.
Not that I'm arguing for taking it against less, but I figured I was going with what normal people do >_> There's a reason I hold different views! Without them, yeah, 300 or so boosted to 600 or so.
Also, you can easily to Hassou Tobi and Auto-Taru on the same turn, even without it on Yoshi - just start with another persona with it out, switch to Yoshi same turn. Yay persona switching!
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Persona 4 bosses
Oh, on PC Shadows...yeah, semi alternate versions of the PCs. Avril was something of a special case where...if you weren't going to rank both, you were going to get Light versus Godlike vote split, and IQA had notably more plot bearing than Shadow PCs.
This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about earlier. The PCs and Shadows are very clearly separate at the time you fight the shadows. I have no idea where you people are coming up with "alternate versions of the PCs" nonsense. If anything, the PCs themselves are the plot fusions and that's if and only if you see the shadows transforming into their Persona. Now, if you have a different reason for not wanting them in that's one thing, but "alternate version" or "plot fusion" arguments alone don't really sit right with me unless you can explain a good reason why.
As for plot bearing, while the plot is that you're trying to find the killer, after fighting two or three of the PC shadows I'd say it's at least pretty clear to virtually all players that you're going to be facing shadows of pretty much anyone that goes into the TV. They're more a plot device than plot important, admittedly, but they are a part of the story and don't just pop out of nowhere. I can't comment on IQA's plot relevance but I'd certainly say the PC shadows have more than the average dungeon boss. Enough for you? Maybe, maybe not, but it's there.
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The argument can be made, of course, that the PC's Shadows are independant entities who take their shape from the fears and insecurities of the PCs. But even if so, that these shadows are conquered and rendered subservient when that PC awakens their persona, whatever their original existence, is very clear. Given the utter uselessness of humans in the game's terms (ie, you MUST have a Persona to fight shadows), the logical conclusion is that we, in fact, already RANKED the PC's Shadows, in the forms of the Persona-wielding PCs.
So I'd say that, if you want to use the Shadows as an alternate form of the PCs, whatever, knock yourself out, but that's not a compelling reason to rank them AGAIN. While ranking the same character twice is something that's happened before in the DL (IQA, Id), I'd argue those should be exceptions, not a common occurance.
Besides which, while Persona 4 is acceptable on the draw, I don't think adding half a dozen extra bosses to it is justifiable either. But that sort of ranking standard is something you can argue back and forth all damned day so I'd rather not lead with it.
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Regarding P4 final: My average damage against the final was ~460 post-buffs/Debilitate and not factoring in backlash for Hassou Tobi/etc.. With just buffs (due to Auto-Masuku existing), it's ~325, without it's ~230. Factoring HP backlash from physical skills this goes down to ~330, ~235, and ~165 respectively. Adding in Charges increase the damage about 10% because it only affects three people in the cast (two of which I didn't even use). I don't think I was using Amp+accessory (just Boost+Amp), so factoring that in... ~470, ~330, ~235 and ~360, ~255, ~180.
So using Amp+accessory with counting backlash and Charge for Souji (and no one else because I didn't use them), ~1370 damage per round. Leads to ~0.95 and ~2.35 durabilities (post-defenses). First form probably gets 2HKOd at worst in Godlike and often OHKOd, while the second form probably gets 2-3HKOd. Halving physical and later absorbing electric does help though.
Looking at the stat topic and factoring in defenses, it looks like OK's above numbers vastly underrate the first form's defenses (400 -> 150 reduction => 0.35 PCHP from my numbers) and overrate the second form's defenses (400 -> 250 => 1.6 PCHP). Assuming the stat topic's correct there anyway (and I could buy those being about right). I'm pretty sure part of that is due to LEVEL and not actual defense scores, so it ends up kind of weird at different levels. I was only a little under the stat topic levels, for the record.
Anyway, after looking at the numbers, I'm kneejerking her as rankable but a very good Godlike (invincibility turns on an HP buffer help a lot). Not completely sure though.
(Assuming normal interps here as well, since mine are a bit different.)
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Persona 4 bosses
1. Have you played this game?
Yes.
2. Rank it?
Abstain
Wild ARMs XF
1. Have you played this game?
Yes.
2. Rank it?
Yes.
Rank: All PCs, Rupert, Charlton, Weisheit, Chelle
Abstain: Other bosses.
Don't Rank: Generics.
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P4 Bosses
Played it?: Yes
Rank: Killer, Kunino-Sagiri, Mitsuo the Hero, Ameno-Sagiri
Abstain: Inazami
No: PC Shadows
Having mulled it over, I've concluded to shoot down the PC shadows this period. I still support them being ranked. However, I feel that influxing that many bosses at once is a little overboard, especially since I'm having issues recalling P4s actual numbers at the moment. If someone can show me it is at least middle to upper middle tier draw, I'll consider changing to an Abstain or a Rank, but for the moment, I'm going to encourage considering splitting it into a third ranking period for those of us who do want to see the PC shadows. It isn't like we're always complaining about there not being a ton to rank anyway.
WA:XF
Played it?: No
Rank: Abstain
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Consensus that Izanami is good but not good enough to be overpowered has seemed pretty fucking airtight to me so far. Show me someone who has actually called her bluelike, rather than saying "well I could kinda sorta see it if you fudged the numbers like so".
IMO, either pay better attention to what exactly people are saying, or make your decision based off your own PERSONAL view of her ability, rather than what other people think that other voters MIGHT do.
2 PC HP damage under (a really pointless in game) Invincibility paired with what would be a headache form chain? Yeah, maybe people haven't been running around calling her Bluelike, but on the other hand, where has she been tested for people to really get a very solid handle on her performance. So yeah, generally based on what other people generally allow in terms of form chaining and similar things, but my gut reaction is that she ends up very powerful and a really big headache. Enough for me to no her given that I have other issues with her.
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She's in List right now, Dhyer.
Also...thanks Tal. There's a reason I don't do math >_> Levels do make that difference. Although her first form actually does have crazy END - 85 IIRC. It's why the HP are low.
I don't think the form-chain is questionable or a headache at all. It's...clearly a form-chain, and people have ignored them before.
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Persona 4 bosses
1. No
2. Yes
Who to rank: Abstain
Wild ARMs XF
1. No
2. Yes
Who to rank: Abstain
Boo to Radiant Dawn not making it this far. Maybe next time.
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P4, have played.
Rank Killer, Hippie, Hero, Eyeball. Abstain on others, with... tentative rank to Shadow Teddie in particular because it felt different from other Shadow fights, but I'm also probably just being weird.
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Have played P4, definitely want to see the bosses ranked. Abstain on Izanami, didn't fight her, but yes to all others. 8-Bit, Hippy, Killer, Eye... All seem good to me. Honestly, I wouldn't see any as difficult to vote on, and some of them are really interesting duelists. I'll support ranking for the other shadow bosses as well, but those will likely be refused. (That's a yes from me, but not bothered if they don't make it.)
Haven't played WAXF, so abstain there.
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Persona 4 bosses
No
EDIT: Yes to Killer, 8-bit Hero, Kunino. No to everything else.
Killer is obvious enough. I finally bothered to read up on P4 plot and Kunino (or the person connected to him) is important enough to the plot, and the connection to said person is straightforward enough to merit a rank. The in-game image for 8-bit Hero was enough to win me over, no matter what name exactly we're ranking it under.
WAXF
No
Yes in general, abstain on specifics.
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P4 Bosses
Yes
Yes to Killer, Kunino-Sagiri and Mitsuo. Abstain on Izanami and Ameno
Wild Arms XF
Yes
Yes. PCs, Rupert, Charlton, Weisheit, Chelle
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1. Persona 4 bosses
a) Yes.
b) Yes to Killer and Izanami. Abstain on Kunino-Sagiri. No to everything else. super somehow convinced me on Izanami, and I'm beginning to think the possibility of her being seen as too good is more of a reflection of one or two glaring exceptions than anything else. Killer is... pretty obvious. The others are also pretty obvious as to why not in my mind.
2. Wild ARMs XF
a) No, but it's probably going to be the reason I'll buy a PSP this year.
b) Yes. Rank the PCs, Charlton, Chelle, Rupert, Weisheit. Fuck no on Asgard.
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Persona 4 bosses
1) Yes
2) Yes
Rank- Killer, Kunino-Sagiri
Wild Arms XF
1) Currently
2) Yes
Rank- PCs except the poor dog. Abstain on bosses for now.
Star Ocean and Dragon Quest next time =-)
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As for WA:XF bosses in general: Went over this in chat somewhat last night, but here's the issue to me. Take Ye Olde Godlike boss. Now take the exact same kind of fight but give the PCs some kind of awesome damage move that is spammable and does triple everything else you can do (or alternatively rule this move legal if you saw it as illegal before). Everyone agrees that the relative HP of the second boss goes down compared to the first boss, because the PC party can crank out more damage. Cool. Now, let's take a third version of Ye Olde Godlike boss, but rather than handing out a new powerful damage move, let's hand out Cancel Strike instead. What happens to that boss's respect? Uh. Good question.
Thing is, Rob Turn and Cancel Strike are *at least* as valuable to a PC party as the awesome damage move I mentioned first, and you are guaranteed to have them. So the third variant of this boss should be punished in some way vis a vi the first boss. Problem is I'm not sure how, since arbitarily cutting their speed feels, well, arbitrary. Yet nevertheless the amount of broken should be reflected in some way, similar to how I'm sure many gutcheck FFT boss respect as low due to some of the powerful setups in that game. I dunno. Even games with *very powerful* Haste spells still have to contend with enemy turns which could be used to mess with the enemy party. Not letting the enemy get turns = an infinitely powerful Haste spell?
Snowfire, on the Decelerate/Cancel Lynch Mob, yeah, you probably could try to set up in this manner. Just...means that you need to be using Decelerate on a number of PCs (Given the numerous, numerous variety of things I'd rather have than Decelerate, it's a notable thing), and have a lot of spare MP for Levin to use. Given that I was generally using Levin's awesome speed and move and the ridiculousness that is Blast to pound away on the large number of enemies that generally inhabit bosses' areas, this would actually be a minus tradeoff considering the whole map, IMO. And then, you are focusing on attacking bosses with plain physical attacks which are lackluster damage wise and can miss! However, You do bring up an interesting point on Chelle versus other bosses, but...that still gives her 65% damage or something? Combine that with awesome speed and non-fail durability (at least in my eyes), and I'm not seeing the Middle/Godlike split. Throwing out PB against bosses (And there are some obviously where it's just not going to work-- Zophar/Myrias/Jade/other giant things aren't going to be pushed back) makes me think that she'd be a low Godlike, maybe a borderliner (She'd punish PC laden Heavy, and does fairly well overall against a good number of Godlike PC).
Hmm. PCs should be in the level 50s for all the Chapter 4 bosses (which is what we're considering ranking). That's room for 8 skill slots. If you think that even more powerful skills than Decelerate should be held against XF bosses, fine, but that'll make them even weaker. Notably, some of the stat boost skill slots are pretty powerful - Atk / Def / Eva / Mag / REs +25% are all quite good, and Def and Eva are rather easy to get. Plus they're rather easy to interpret.
Don't want to get into the point too much since this is ultimately personal playstyles, but I only learned Decelerate on two characters - Clarissa and Levin - and that + Slow Down on an enemy was often enough to keep most random mook bosses turn-locked. Didn't take much, but obviously there are other ways to be awesome as well. Re Levin's MP, though, thanks to Decelerate he usually didn't even have to use it much, but it did push things over the top due to CS meaning a boss couldn't take a turn and OHKO an important character or something. Against Charlton 2, for example, after Slow Down + surround to take advantage of Formation Arts, I think I only had to Cancel Strike him once. And Clarissa couldn't even help out with the Deceleration since he nulls Strahl Gehvehr for no apparent reason. (Okay, in fairness, he was Degenerator'd as well, which also slowed him down. But every boss should be degeneratored 'cause it rules.) As for physical attacks being meh... well, Degenerator helps get past evasion concerns in general, and a three-person Formation Strike tends to do as much damage as, say, Secutor's Hard Smash or Fencer's Revolver Sweep, AND often criticals for even more damage. So yeah, while physicals are often meh against the support, I found them pretty good when focusing on one enemy.
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Persona 4 bosses
1. Yes. Played it.
2. Yes
Who to rank: Killer is the only one I am in support of. Abstain on Kunino, Ameno, 8-bit hero and Izanami. No to PC Shadows
Wild ARMs XF
1. Yes
2. Yes
Who to rank: The 6 PCs + TONY + the big 3 (Weiss/Charlton/Rupert). Chelle...eh, sure. She re-appears often enough and is better than Piedras (whatever that says). Final's good, but in agreement of spoilerish issues, so abstain on her. Asgard's already ranked, but adding XF Asgard in is lol (Invinci spam until double turn then lolyoulose. And the only way to beat this is to have WA4 boss speed? Yeah). No to Generics. Think that's everyone...oh and RANK SAMILLE and EL JACKSON. Best ranks ever.
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I havent played either game. Still looking for P4 and after looking into Wild Arms XF realized it might be fun to play. Well there goes another game on my backlog.
abstain on Persona 4, seeing as we are ranking spoilers.
After having looked up and realizing that XF is a Strategy game, that actually looks like fun. It actually does seem like an interesting rank. Yes to PC's , no to bosses. We can always rank the bosses later if its a good draw.
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Thing is, Rob Turn and Cancel Strike are *at least* as valuable to a PC party as the awesome damage move I mentioned first, and you are guaranteed to have them.
1. Rob Turn doesn't work on most bosses.
2. You are so not guaranteed to have a worthwhile Cancel Strike. See Dhyer/my playstyles (lol book cancel strike). Also you could just not use Levin, he's not forced.
3. So bosses are vulnerable to a certain skill. Um, okay, good for anyone who uses that skill against them in the DL. It's just like if all the bosses were vulnerable to ID. This would make their durability suck in-game if you IDed them all, yes. But you know what? In the DL they'd have fine HP, and they'd suffer for their ID vulnerability when they face Alys or whoever. Double punishing is stupid.
4. We don't scale bosses against speed buffing or debuffing. Or at least I don't, I can't think of m/any who do, and I've never heard you talk about it yourself. One Saner turns every PS4 into Ghaleon level speed but people see them as slightly below average. Hastega makes every FFX boss a slug but we don't hold that against them. Lambda after Slow Down isn't such a speed demon, and Melfice after Cold impresses nobody. You get the picture here.
Bosses who face raw damage and HP have that held against them. Bosses who face good skills do not, it just means they face powerful PCs. We don't scale skillset worth.
Oh yeah, and those 8 skill slots you mentioned are going to have a lot of space devoted to random smashing, healing, and other things besides "I want to make bosses look as bad in the DL as possible :( :( :(".
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Yes. If you want to punish F bosses for being vulnerable to Slow Down and turn-cancelling, then do it when they face someone with those skills.
Classic example is Rubicant. His durability in-game is worse because he has that glaring ice weakness, but without the ice weakness he is quite the tankish freak. This lets him translate better to a DL setting of course, but that is just a logical consequence. This is true of pretty much *every spoiler boss ever*
While I don't agree with NEB about Haste spells being ignored in CTB systems (that is a form of damage buffing, and often a very effective one), I don't believe you should hold the XF cast's ability to cancel/slow down turns against the bosses. If you want to punish their durability for facing things like Six Shooter and a cast full of speed-buffing freaks than that is your prerogative, but debuffs are just the PC cast being badass. Badass casts usually are matched up with badass bosses.
In-game worth isn't the end-all in the DL for bosses. I mean, a boss with ST OHKO can be a triviality in one game or a game-stopper in another, depending on stuff like healing and revival. It would still be the same thing in the DL.
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I don't think the form-chain is questionable or a headache at all. It's...clearly a form-chain, and people have ignored them before.
It's split by a plot scene and I believe the fight resets (Aka, the buffs revert back to the beginning, which is kind of notable. Did that even happen when enemies chained into each other?). Note that without the "guaranteed" ability to unload 2 PC HP damage, she at least feels a lot more rankable to me, but I have seriously little reading on how the majority of people take her. And list is awesome, but 64 duellers a week means that you aren't necessarily fully thinking about duellers that have had heavy testing, let alone one with next to none.
Oh right, what exactly is in the 400 damage that is taken against randoms, since that looks so different than the DL average, and there isn't much reason for that in P4?
For XF bosses, mostly see what NEB said. You have 8 slots, and there are lots of skills that you want to get, and many of them don't impact averages. I will note Snowfire that even if you choose to setup up PCs to throttle bosses at melee ranges, their ignored support than becomes that much more important (Especially if the support has range!). I'll also note that between the skills that can't be moved after using and the need for a bunch of melee attacks (And yes, for a setup that isn't optimizing Levin or Clarissa's magic damage in order to get better accuracy!), you're needing a good chunk of preparation within the battle (And the boss may just choose to take the battle to you).
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P4
Played it. Rank all PCs, Killer and Izanami. No to the eye, hell no to PC shadow bosses, abstain on the others.
XF
Played it. Rank all PCs, major plot bosses not named Eisen/Asgard/WORMFACE. Are we not including the final yet for spoilerish reasons?
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PCs are already ranked, Cid! >_>
Dhyer: That number probably comes from me sucking at math <_< It was an estimate based on accessory modifications, physical skills, auto-kajas, etc. The number in-game should be higher against randoms, though - the average level is like 76 in the last dungeon, and at 80, you do more damage to them, so that's a factor of a lot of things.
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Cid: Yeah, final isn't getting much support for spoilerish reasons, quite a few people still playing the game and/or who intend to pick it up now that it is being ranked. Good idea for later at least.
Also, boooooo to form-chains split by plot scenes in general.
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Mmm...to be fair, XF has been out for a while. And you could always rank the final as something else, to be fair!!!
MORE BIRDS OF DOOM!?!?
The form-chain is...split up by an in-battle cutscene...I don't...think status boosts or breaks carry over, though I've never tested (they do for Jenna, at least).
So...just as a general question of interest, what do you consider form-chains?
1) If you start a battle with effects in play from the first part of the fight, but it's separated by a plot scene (HP and the like still are the same as well).
2) No plot scene, but the effects are reset (but not HP)
3) As above, but HP are restored
I've always called a form-chain a chain of fights with no chance to go back to the menu, access equipment, heal, etc. So GAIA CORE INTO EVIL GAIA and Avalon are fine, as examples.
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I think it would be beneficial if someone would test that. If the status is reset then I wouldn't consider it a form chain.
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When I get off work. In 3 hours >_>
Can't believe I didn't test that to begin with.
ANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNND - Confirmed. Everything stays (kajas, kundas, charges) - as I said, it's an in-battle cutscene for loading purposes.
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If so, then she's the magical version of Jenna (Yeah, both have different advantages and disadvantages compared to each other). I'm just going through Super's list on Izanami vs the World. He doesn't allow the form chain and she's a high Godlike and she's racking up about 20 losses there. Allow that form chain and you are looking at maybe 2-3 people who really solidly beat her. The ability to unleash 2 PC HP "guaranteed" on top of being very solid otherwise feels like way too much (Last form...well, if that 400 was including all the stuff you can add, then that 250 to her is including physical skills and Kajas. So...3 PC HP durability to magic and 6 to physicals in the last form. With OHKO damage and that a form chain with a buffer. Yeah, unless people are just generally disregarding that form chain- and prior experience with other DL duellers shows this is generally the case, you are talking about someone who may just be too untouchable in the DL). Are people just throwing out the chain? Because that guaranteed damage is just too good at taking out a lot of normally high powered sluggers who focus on damage on more than Mdur.
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I think we should think long and hard before we rank someone of that caliber. I certainly would not support Jenna if she were to be ranked again (this information was basically not known until months later) and we don't want to have someone who can hardly be beaten and leave it to people to disregard her legal-seeming formchain.
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Yeah, going to be switching my vote to No on Izanami. A few factors here:
-I would not have ranked Jenna if we knew about her what we know now. A questionable form-chain creating an unreasonably good boss. The difference is that Jenna has more plot, it seems.
-The "Izanami vs. the world" topic. If you need that to convince me to support a rank, there's a problem. Never mind that the people who want to rank are going to fudge their votes to make her look rankable so it's probably even worse than the topic suggests. (I'm not accusing anyone of purposeful dishonesty, mind, but it's natural.)
On the other hand, switching to Yes on Mitsuo. I've heard his name well enough so I'm comfortable he has plot, and the issues being bandied about? Don't feel worse than a few things we've already ranked (Jecht, Lyon, Dhoulmagus, Leopold, etc.) So yeah, he's in.
Yes to Kunino-Sagiri too I suppose for all that that's a name I've heard very little, he is apparently present enough during his time in the plot. It doesn't matter anyway, he's getting in.
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Persona 4 bosses
Played it.
Yes to Killer. Abstain on Mitsuo and Kunino. Killer is pretty much the text book example of a rankable boss. Mitsuo and Kunino both have shades of plot, but unsure if I really feel its enough?
No to everyone else. Shadows are not the same as IQA and Id the way we have them ranked, for reasons noted earlier. Izanami is a fudged ass pull who pretends to have plot and she's apparently really damn good, so uh, yeah no.
Wild ARMs XF
Yes.
Rank it. PCs, and...meh, too lazy to list bosses, I'll just say whoever is getting reasonable amounts of support.
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You may have heard Kunino-Saigiri by his better known name: Hippie Jesus.
Votes to come in a second.
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Persona 4 bosses
1. No
2. Abstain
Yeah, I'll get around to it someday. (And everyone takes a sip in the DL Drinking Game for Doma procrastinating on playing or writing something and mentioning it (and a chug for brackets in brackets).)
Wild ARMs XF
1. Yes, but not enough to really vote on it.
2. Yes, rank all PCs (especially Tony), all bosses. No to Generics, but with the understanding that I'm sure they'd be great for NR matches *totally unsubtle hint*.
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You may have heard Kunino-Saigiri by his better known name: Hippie Jesus.
I know who Kunino is (yet, HIppie Jesus is someone I would never have figured out if super didn't tell me recently), doesn't change my stance.
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I'm really curious as to why people are saying that Mitsuo and Kunino don't have enough plot for the to be ranked. Just looking through godlike alone there are a number of bosses who have less plot than them and nobody seems to have a problem with those bosses. Leoplod from DQ8 has similar plot to Mitsuo and less plot than Kunino and from what I've seen he seems fairly well liked.
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UUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLL!!
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MICHAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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...yeah, I've not understood the "What plot?!" arguments either. I mean, sure, they don't impact the -final- plot, but both have major sections in their own right which, from what I've heard, is what got Scythe and Belial ranked. Not only that, but Kunino does have a huge impact on Killer's plot, being the final link towards solving the mystery. So... yeah, really can't see where the arguments are coming from for either, but Kunino especially.
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MICHAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BISON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Pers 4 Bosses
Played it, beat it.
Rank it. Specifically Killer, Mitsuo and Kunino. No to Izanami. No to Ameno. No to PC shadows.
WAXF
In process of playing it.
Rank it. No comments on who/what to rank, though. Haven't beaten the game yet!
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Dhyer: Eh, it does sound like our playstyles were just different. I don't feel bosses should be held against twinked setups, no, but I don't feel I had a twinked setup at all; I felt I had a pretty standard one, and don't think it was built for melee at all, or somehow skimping on killing the support. No synthed items, most characters in their base class or at least having their base class's equipment on, etc. Just once the support was dead, Formation Arts tend to be better than about anything other than Six Shooter with Fragile & Degenerator both (and even then, crits and good hit often make the Formation Art a better choice - I don't think it's reflected in the attack preview, but I've seen Formation Arts hit seemingly way more often than they "should."
While I don't agree with NEB about Haste spells being ignored in CTB systems (that is a form of damage buffing, and often a very effective one), I don't believe you should hold the XF cast's ability to cancel/slow down turns against the bosses. If you want to punish their durability for facing things like Six Shooter and a cast full of speed-buffing freaks than that is your prerogative, but debuffs are just the PC cast being badass. Badass casts usually are matched up with badass bosses.
This is a fair enough point but it's actually an issue that the DL is very, very weird about. For example if you add two zeroes to the end of all the numbers in your game, is this a case of both PCs and bosses just being so incredibly badass so let's give them credit? The fight is exactly as hard but we don't let the second crew have 100x the stats in the DL. Now, you're absolutely right that we can't just rank "in-game difficulty" either due to how radically different, say, a ST OHKO is between game systems, but I don't like it when bosses translate strangely. I'd compare it to why DDS Bat wasn't ranked - he's an ubergodlike in the DL and a wimp in-game since you're guaranteed to have Argilla be able to go wild on him with earth damage. (Apparently, never played DDS, but know his trick).
4. We don't scale bosses against speed buffing or debuffing.
Well, as I mentioned before, I generally agree! (Though I'd agree with Pyro that I would be willing to hold it against boss *HP* maybe as a damage buff.) However, I see a qualitative difference in Cancel Strike - there's a big difference to me between "getting constantly doubled" and "can't take turns." Interpreting the second I find to be a headache in the DL.
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Anyway, to be clear, the general worries about XF are just that - general worries. If it was only that, I'd probably not be voting DNR, I'd be abstaining like I am with Rupert. Chelle, already mentioned the Predator Strike respect worries, Charlton's better but I definitely think Charlton 2 is his most legal form. And on that note, now that I've taken on final Weisheit... ack, he's a weird one too. If you let the battlefield be cluttered with obstacles it seems that Weisheit just *loses* to anyone with half his speed or more (and writhes in Light, since he's not double average speed). Never saw Weisheit use his earlier skillset at all (with Divider) in the final battle, though I suppose he can drop back to one of his earlier forms. On the other hand, if you make it hard to dodge behind the obstacles, then he's Godlike, sure, but that doesn't really strike me as true to the game where you're specifically prompted to play dodge-a-Merchant. Or you could say there are some obstacles and say there's an X% chance of having some place to dodge, modified by your movement if any or else agility if you're from a game with no movement. The most true to the game, but also somewhat arbitrary. Hrmm. I don't want to be Captain Negative here, but this sounds like a do-not-rank problem as well.
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Even if you let opponents spend a turn to get away from Weisheit (ignoring that he has an effective range of 9 so this is likely impossible in many situations, including at the very least anyone who relies on close-range attacks), he wins as soon as he doubleturns them, which with his speed (180%?) happens pretty quickly. And if you hype this you should hype things like Oscar attacking then running away so he can't be hit next turn, or Ramza running around the battlefield screaming and staying out of enemy reach. (Actually that's much more reasonable since it doesn't assume the arena is uneven height littered with obstacles, etc.... all things I view the arena as profoundly NOT.)
Trying to solo Weisheit, particularly on the desert (the last map makes it a bit easier, I think to compensate for the fact that you face Asgard as well, though IMO the desert is the much harder map of the two), seems borderline impossible even if you remove his golem flunkies and cut his HP, and the DL reflects this. *shrug*
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Switched to a no on Izanami. Much as I'd like to rank her, if the formchain is that airtight she is probably too strong. Granted, we have a few bosses as strong in the DL but only really Myria1/Zophar I think? Still, pass for now- if something changes we can always rank her as a FW.
EDIT: What are we ranking 8bit and Kunino as? I'm fine with them as their real names (Mitsuo and Namatame), and the art will match that.
I'd compare it to why DDS Bat wasn't ranked - he's an ubergodlike in the DL and a wimp in-game since you're guaranteed to have Argilla be able to go wild on him with earth damage. (Apparently, never played DDS, but know his trick).
Bat's a marginal idea from a marginal rank who has some annoying translation issues, who may or not be bluelike thanks to requiring some very specific skills to beat him. The XF stuff sounds more like typical boss scaling issues to me.
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I'd say to rank the P4ers as their real names, yeah. Those're what've got the plot/character in the first place.
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SPOILERS GOD I AM SICK OF SAYING THIS IN GIGANTIC TYPE
I would suggest the ranking of them to be:
Bored Sociopath Tohru Adachi
Hippie Jesus Taro Namatame
Fetus Mitsuo's Shadow - NOT as Mitsuo, as the two are separate entities...man, Mitsuo really is reminding me of Ull, in terms of the ranking discussion >_>
I would support using, graphics-wise, the official art for the first two, and the Shadow (i.e., red eye) face pic for the last.
SPOILERS GOD I AM SICK OF SAYING THIS IN GIGANTIC TYPE
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If Mitsuo has no other form (which I believe is the case?) then I'd just rank him as Mitsuo. Sorta like the fact that we don't rank Jecht as Braska's Final Aeon despite that being his in-battle name and him being not 100% Jecht any more.
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NEB, it is a different circumstance. Mitsuo is a crazy kid who got thrown into the TV world. What you actually FIGHT is Mitsuo's Shadow, a manifestation of Mitsuo's inner self that is effectively a separate entity from Mitsuo. This is the same case for all of the PC Shadows.
Persona 4 bosses
1. Yes.
2. Rank Nametame and the Killer (next round I am using the real name regardless of who hasn't finished it. We are ranking this person and are not going to put a giant question mark by their name). No to the PC Shadows, Abstain on Izanami and Mitsuo's Shadow.
Wild ARMs XF
1. Yes.
2. Rank the seven PCs (including Tony!), Rupert, Chelle, Weissheit, and Charlton.
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Pyro: I'm aware of that. My point is we rank other fudgy bosses by their most recognisable name, rather than trying to be technical on exactly what they are.
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2. Rank Nametame and the Killer (next round I am using the real name regardless of who hasn't finished it. We are ranking this person and are not going to put a giant question mark by their name). No to the PC Shadows, Abstain on Izanami and Mitsuo's Shadow.
What's funny is that the Persona 4 guidebook goes to insane lengths to avoid that, and actually DOES use a picture of a Question Mark (?) for the boss graphic (all the others get actual pictures, and while Hippie's identity isn't explicitly stated, they do have the picture of them CONVENIENTLY on the same page >_>)
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Elf (SPOILERS, if you care):
Well, it is most recognizable as Mitsuo's Shadow, really - it's the in-battle name, and makes the most plot sense. And really, Mitsuo's Shadow vs. Mitsuo is...not much of a distinction, as people will know Mitsuo's Shadow stands for what it does, but it is the more correct and recognizable game, compared to Mitsuo himself.
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2. Rank Nametame and the Killer (next round I am using the real name regardless of who hasn't finished it. We are ranking this person and are not going to put a giant question mark by their name). No to the PC Shadows, Abstain on Izanami and Mitsuo's Shadow.
What's funny is that the Persona 4 guidebook goes to insane lengths to avoid that, and actually DOES use a picture of a Question Mark (?) for the boss graphic (all the others get actual pictures, and while Hippie's identity isn't explicitly stated, they do have the picture of them CONVENIENTLY on the same page >_>)
The on ly reason I'm bothering to spoil the Killer at this point is one last person is finishing up the game right now. Otherwise yeah. Spoilers suck but come with the territory.
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Yeah, pretty much. Anyone still playing the game should avoid the next topic since we should definitely be using the names as they will appear when ranked in the final topic. (If they want to rank other things anyway they can always PM someone else to post rankings for them without seeing anything.)
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2. Rank Nametame and the Killer (next round I am using the real name regardless of who hasn't finished it. We are ranking this person and are not going to put a giant question mark by their name). No to the PC Shadows, Abstain on Izanami and Mitsuo's Shadow.
What's funny is that the Persona 4 guidebook goes to insane lengths to avoid that, and actually DOES use a picture of a Question Mark (?) for the boss graphic (all the others get actual pictures, and while Hippie's identity isn't explicitly stated, they do have the picture of them CONVENIENTLY on the same page >_>)
The on ly reason I'm bothering to spoil the Killer at this point is one last person is finishing up the game right now. Otherwise yeah. Spoilers suck but come with the territory.
I was commenting on Pyro's "...not going to put a giant question mark by their name" comment, as the guidebook does just that.
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I'd say to rank the P4ers as their real names, yeah. Those're what've got the plot/character in the first place.
This. It's just more fun to call them 8-Bit Hero and Hippie Jesus~
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Eh, Hippie Jesus and Baby Fetus are relatively awesome names too
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Persona 4
1. Yes
2. Yes to the Killer, Kunino-Sagiri, Mitsuo the Hero, and Izanami. Abstain on the PC Shadows, but note that they're technically similar to Mitsuo the Hero. No to Ameno-Sagiri for Necron-esque out of nowhere state of being.
Wild Arms XF
1. Yes
2. Yes to the PC's (except poor Tony, who is damn near Puny), Charlton, Rupert, Weisheit, and Chelle. Abstain on Asgard. No to Eisen (Wormface?), Zortroa Kinship, and the Final Boss.
Also a no to Tony for Spoilery reasoning.
...for possibly already being ranked under a different name... like Luceid
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Definately in favour of going with Mitsuo, and not Mitsuo's Shadow. Yes, I understand the plot reasons why that's not really how it is. But as mentioned before, the difference is unimportant and technical, and it's nice to have someone down as someone. Especially when it's the first thing that'll come to mind.
Especially when you get to the whole thing of the difference between the shadow and the person being murky as well.
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Agree with OK. 8bit Hero should be ranked as Mitsuo's Shadow or Shadow Mitsuo, whichever one was used in-game. It is distinctly NOT Mitsuo, since Mitsuo is actually in that scene as well.
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Agree with OK. 8bit Hero should be ranked as Mitsuo's Shadow or Shadow Mitsuo, whichever one was used in-game. It is distinctly NOT Mitsuo, since Mitsuo is actually in that scene as well.
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www.giantbomb.com/mitsuo-kubo/94-9835/
The actual Shadow version face-pic.
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Mitsuo's the one with the actual plot basis for ranking, so go with Mitsuo. Besides, you're not me, yes I am, no you're not, yes I am: Shadows are an aspect of the person anyways.
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But Mitsuo is an NPC. Mitsuo's Shadow fights.
I don't want to be so technical, but...despite the shadows being an aspect of the person, they are clearly just that - an aspect. Mitsuo clearly rejects his shadow at the end - hence, they are not really the same. The PCs accept theirs, and hence gain them as their persona, i.e., become whole. Mitsuo does not, so plotwise/combatwise, that shadow is not him.
This is one of the reasons I am not all gung-ho for ranking it - it toes the line for ranking NPCs, which has standardly not been done.
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A large rank of the 8bitHero's ranking it based on the plot that Mitsuo has. The Shadow itself doesn't have the plot bearing for ranking.
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You say you don't really want to, and given your reasons, I'm still in disagreement that the need is there, either. Honestly, there's two reasons as to why Mitsuo's shadow is important and getting ranked. One is that it's a major and memorable fight. The other is that Mitsuo is important to the plot, and helps to anchor the mid game. If you take away Mitsuo, then all you have is some random P3 Lunar Boss. Some of those are also pretty damned distinct and memorable, and the first person to suggest ranking one will get laughed out of the joint because they will never, ever, in a million years get ranked. And I would be shocked if at least half the people who said no out of hand didn't use plotless space fleas as part of their justification.
I mean, hell. By the logic you're using, Lily should not be ranked when MK2 is. Lily does nothing but give orders, so it's clearly Whim that should be ranked. Except, I can't imagine that argument gaining traction when the base of it all comes from Lily calling the shots. It's the same here, the core is still Mitsuo. No Mitsuo, no Mitsuo's shadow. There is no hero to be born from his darkness. And even if it is just an aspect of him, it's still roughly the same as Jecht and the P3/4 cast where it's aspects of them that are doing all of the fighting, and yet it's the character that's named. Yukari instead of Isis, Akihiko instead of Ceasar. That kind of thing.
So... yeah. I can see where the argument is coming from about NPCs and such. But I feel that both cases where it's being applied in the case of P4 are cases of being overly critical with logic that isn't sound.
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I do not disagree with the fact that The Shadow of Mitsuo is memorable or that the fight is important to the plot. That is the reason why I detailed that it's not a horrible rank (very similar to, but better than, the Ull situation from Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria). However, when DarkHolyElf stated that it should be ranked by the most recognizable name, there is a bit of an odd conundrum here. I'm very much for ranking characters over battles. However, I do focus on the character being ranked - this is an odd circumstance, as there's a bit of a case that the two are equal - however, if Mitsuo were, say, in control of the Shadow, I wouldn't have a problem. I don't support ranking Lyon (correction - proper grammar is "didn't") from Fire Emblem 8 because Lyon is never fighting in-game, it's Fomortiss using his body. I consider Lyon in the DL to be Fomortiss, and thus allow the final form of Fomortiis for this.
I cannot comment, nor will I comment, on Mana Khemia: Fall of Alchemy, as I have not played the game.
In Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3, one of the character powers that awakens is the power of the persona. This is an aspect of them they are completely (generally) in control of. They can access it when they want, how they want.
I am not saying that The Shadow of Mitsuo is devoid of plot development, and I never have. Mitsuo is not in control of his shadow before or after the battle. There's a Final Fantasy Tactics character (and I cannot remember who specifically) we have ranked that people have argued about ranking the demon form only, because it seems to them that the power of that character arises from the demon purely. Or not allowing skills because they are associated with a power that is not theirs, is focused on the environment, etc.
It is a, probably in the end, very minor distinction, but I feel it opens up the door for very odd arguments that people have stated, in the past, they are eager to avoid. It makes me think of ranking Zelos from Skies of Arcadia, and using the final, final fight where he's merged with Ramirez. Yes, the battle does say it is Ramirez being fought, but it's Zelos in control of Ramirez's body, there, plotwise. It's a bit of the opposite take on this case, but it's a relatively similar concept.
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If you take away Mitsuo, then all you have is some random P3 Lunar Boss
Untrue. Even without Mitsuo, the shadow has personality. Dialogue. Even without actually being Mitsuo, it in its own way shares his history and position in the plot, despite also being a separate thing. Coupled with the rather unusual gimmick and overall competence as a battle, I'd definitely call Mitsuo the #2 idea from the game.
(not that I'm changing my abstain vote.)
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If you take away Mitsuo, then all you have is some random P3 Lunar Boss.
why 8bit hero shouldn't be ranked at all and this whole debate should have no reason to exist.txt
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Just want to note that I don't care what we rank him as, so long as we rank him.
I can see both arguments. But regardless, Mitsuo himself is pretty big in the plot, and his Shadow is a large portion of his plot and character development. I'd rank both of them if Mitsuo himself had a battle form. He doesn't, so just ranking the Shadow is fine. Different from the PCs' Shadows? Slightly, since the PCs absorb their Shadows. "Shadow Mitsuo Kubo" isn't a huge difference from simply "Mitsuo Kubo"... and his art isn't even wildly different either. (Though personally, I'd rather use some art of his pixellated self!)
The DL 'mascot' flavor is strong with this one.
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Why does Mitsuo's rejection of his shadow matter at all? It was still a part of him, even if it's a part that he doesn't want to believe is there. If he had denied and somehow become a party member would this argument honestly be different? The Shadow is part of him he rejected... I don't see why this is an issue. Call it "Mitsuo the Hero" if it's such a big deal.
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The DL 'mascot' flavor is strong with this one.
Teddie he is not.
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I think some wires were crossed here, Dhyer.
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P4
Yes
Rank 'em all.
WA:XF
No
Abstain
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If you take away Mitsuo, then all you have is some random P3 Lunar Boss
Untrue. Even without Mitsuo, the shadow has personality. Dialogue. Even without actually being Mitsuo, it in its own way shares his history and position in the plot, despite also being a separate thing. Coupled with the rather unusual gimmick and overall competence as a battle, I'd definitely call Mitsuo the #2 idea from the game.
(not that I'm changing my abstain vote.)
Except that this argument is completely missing the point of Persona 4. I mean, how many times did it ram the point home that your Shadow is you, and you are your Shadow, no matter how much you want to deny it. And that only bad things happen if you do not accept it as a part of yourself. At least a half a dozen times.
Mitsuo = Shadow Mitsuo. Shadow Mitsuo = Mitsuo. They are one and the same. Just that Shadow Mitsuo is the part of himself that he refuses to acknowledge exists, the worst part of him. It is a central premise of the game that the Shadows and the people they are shadows of are the same damned person.
If the argument is solely based on the fact that Mitsuo is so damned retarded and such a contemptable human being that he either does not get that he must face himself, or cannot bring himself to face himself, then the concept is not invalidated by the one person who failed when you have, every PC but one who does do this. That's six people, all of whom do end up accepting the whole idea.
Let's see... Here's a better example. Rei in weretiger. Do you consider that to be Rei? Or would you have that relabled as Berserk Rei, or Weretiger Rei? Because that's effectively what you're looking at here. Or anything else where the character in question is in a berserker rage, or otherwise not in control of themself, but not controlled by someone else.
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Except that this argument is completely missing the point of Persona 4. I mean, how many times did it ram the point home that your Shadow is you, and you are your Shadow, no matter how much you want to deny it. And that only bad things happen if you do not accept it as a part of yourself. At least a half a dozen times.
Just want to add in that the game makes it VERY CLEAR that the last point is true. The Shadows are harmless in and of themselves, beyond the psychological effects, and EVERYTIME, the Shadows only take on a genuinely dangerous manifestation when the character openly denies that aspect of themselves.
In fact, the game goes out of its way to have your current PCs try to stop (and fail miserably) the character in question from yelling the "YOU'RE NOT ME!" line that basically is the Berserk Button for Shadows. Even subtly denying this fact isn't enough (as in, simply just being bewildered at this factor isn't enough, as most of the characters are more like "What's going on?" at first before shouting the "YOU'RE NOT ME!")
I seriously think people are overlooking just how much its going to matter.
Mitsuo = Shadow Mitsuo; ranking him as "Mitsuo", I'm sure most people who vote are smart enough to at least make the connection, one way or another, that he's ranked based on his Shadow form. That's the only viable form he has. It'd be one thing if you fought Shadow Mitsuo, then later you fought Mitsuo in a semi-plot fight where he's using a Persona, but he's incredibly weak...you'd almost have a point there due to vote split. But that's not the case; it really is akin to Jecht and Braska's Final Aeon. Not identical, but its a close enough scenario to just equate the two and move on.
We have Jenna ranked as "Jenna" for example even though her final boss form is "Hari hara" IIRC or heck, just about every DDS boss ranked (...which includes all of Heat as well <.<?) is the same way. We have Myria ranked as "Myria" even though her boss form is "Goddess" in BoF1. Fou-lu is never called "Fou-lu" in Boss form, but "Astral" and "Tyrant."
Really, people are overthinking the scenario here, and its vaguely insulting to others; just ranking Mitsuo is enough for people to figure things out, so long as they remember "No NPCs". Or are you guys seriously suggesting a semantic in a scenario like this is going to make a huge difference?
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Boo to Radiant Dawn not making it this far. Maybe next time.
Radiant Dawn really needs more writers before it gets ranked; I'd have fought pretty damn hard to keep it out this time. The writer's numbers are bad enough where I'd be seriously worried about having to do them myself or someone else who hasn't played the game.
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Boo to Radiant Dawn not making it this far. Maybe next time.
Radiant Dawn really needs more writers before it gets ranked; I'd have fought pretty damn hard to keep it out this time. The writer's numbers are bad enough where I'd be seriously worried about having to do them myself or someone else who hasn't played the game.
Fascinating. I'm still marginally disappointed, though. Sue me.
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Feel free to write more to help cover it! We always need help there.
XF spoilers/edit:
Tony is Lucied isn't he? Seems like he's DNR bait.
This closes tomorrow night,so get your votes in now!
Oh, thanks Meeple. Never mind.
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To super's spoiler.
In what sense? If you mean gameplay wise, where he's just total trash dog PC, you...wouldn't be far from the truth. If you mean "Tony is the Lucied of the XF world" then no, that's not true. I don't think any of the Guardians make a genuine appearance in XF, actually. The idea OF Guardians gets mentioned, but I don't think any of them appear or are referred to by name.
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Not ranking him would be a travesty. He is awesome.
To Meeple:
Tony is almost certainly Lucied. While it doesn't state so outright, there are several dropped hints that this is so. It is... a little less obvious than Clarissa and Alexia's switcharoo, but still has enough bones thrown at it (hahahaha) where you can figure it out. Note the final battle cutscene where the Clymisian is shocked that Tony stopped one of her attacks. Also note Tony's general obsession with Clarissa (the rightful Medium Princess) and being a too clever. Combine that with some talk of Lucied by random NPCs and you have a pretty clear picture.
I don't think this makes him any less rankable, honestly.
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Pretty much agree with Pyro. Mm, for a parallel, it'd be like not ranking Rune because we already have Noah ranked. Heck, maybe it's closer to not ranking Cid Highwind because we already have Cid Pollendina ranked, because every Filgaia does appear to be a completely different world, after all. Granted, this argument could be used to rank Lucied 1, 2, and 3 separately, but given how light all of them are on plot, fuck that. Tony has several distinctions which recommend ranking him and not other separate Lucieds: (a) he isn't called Luceid, (b) he is a permanent PC, (c) he looks totally different than "Luceid" does in the other games (white ordinary looking dog instead of magical black wolf). This is assuming they even are definitely the same, which while likely isn't confirmed/canon.
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This is closed. I will post the next round in the morning. Thanks for your patience.
I am ignoring generic 'yes, abstain on specific rank' votes for this.
Killer: 26-0
Kunino-Sagiri: 19-2
Mitsuo: 16-5
Izanami: 10-7
Ameno: 9-10
Shadow Teddie: 5-14
Shadows: 4-14
XF PC's: 19-0
Tony: 16-2
Rupert: 17-0
Chelle, Charlton, Weisheit: 17-1