The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Pyro on February 13, 2010, 06:22:46 PM
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Since there is no weekly topic...
Palom and Porom (FF4) vs. Parry and Madchen (DQ5)
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Do Sabin and Edgar count as twins?
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Sure. They don't count as little girl twins unless you're particularly insane, though.
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Ok then, new match idea!
Sabin and Edgar vs Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen
Make it HAPPEN!
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You fail to see the point, Scar...
Sabin and Edgar are twins...but they're also adults.
Porom and Palom are 5 years old, Parry and Madchen are 8 years old. IOWs, they're not just twins, they're young elementary school (if that) children who helped save the world!
Edgar and Sabin are also not totally fucking stupid conceptually, showing that "Hey, Twins don't have to do everything together!" and what not (plus they have too much character and personality compared to the 4 characters here <.<) Ok, I guess Parry/Madchen are justified for a number of reasons, as the game doesn't pretend BEST MAGES EVAR!!! despite their age.
That said, I'd kneejerk Porom/Palom based off FF4a. They're both good at speed there, IIRC, and FF4 status should gun down at least the Daughter, if not both, or they can just focus all their damage to one. I think it doesn't help that Son's best damage is Lightning based, which both resist, and Daughter's is Fire based, which at Porom at very least resist (I think Palom misses fire?)
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The figaros can square off against the older, crack-head versions of the Olsen twins!
For comical justice!
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Depends entirely on Parry and Madchen's speed for me. It's not a bad fight, just really, really short.
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Parry is a bit below average, Madchen is gamebest or close to it.
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Elfin charm reduces status rates, so I'm pretty sure I see Madchen and Parry taking this. Especially with Bounce in play.
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Parry getting a turn is gg thanks to the Zenithinian Shield, and I always felt that FF4 status rates are somewhat overhyped. Inclined to use FF4o, too, which has pretty bad HP, and Madchen can probably have a MT 2HKO here, though admittedly she also has to tank the status. Elfin Charms are storebought and pretty decent, so yeah, leaning DQ5. But good fight.
If DQV takes on the Figaro twins though think it's a bit uglier. Even with Elfin Charm hype Noiseblaster is 100% by default and I don't think an Oomphed Parry OHKOs Edgar even ignoring Edgar's block. Even if Edgar was eventually taken down Sabin can revive and fullheal Edgar, and when he's not he's unleashing Air Slashes and Bum Rushes to keep the pressure on.
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Mary Kate and Ashley easily beat Sabin and Edgar.
Edgar would bang any female that moves... twins are an absolute must. They simply tell Edgar to take out Sabin and they're his. So now this comes down to Edgar v Sabin. Edgar busts out Chainsaw and wins! MK and Ashley then tie Edgar up (assuming he's into that) and put a dagger in his heart.
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One problem with that, Sabin eats Chainsaws for breakfast. Edgar and the twins get suplexed and pinned for the 1-2-3 because any match involving sabin MUST be a wrestling match.
*Insert mandatory "He's broken in half" comment*
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Sabin + Edgar vs. Madchen + Parry isn't very fair.
Sabin + Edgar vs. Eirika + Ephraim.
There ya go.
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Sabin/Edgar vs the FE8 siblings comes down to them one rounding Edgar and picking apart Sabin, no? WAIT NO SABIN CLEARLY USES HIS REVIVAL SKILL TO SAVE THE DAY
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Figaro Siblings vs. Pegasus Sisters?
I mean, there's 3 of them and Triangle Attack is nasty...
B-but Autocrossbow and Sabin's Air elemental Blitz hit weakness!
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Yeah, sounds bad for Pegasus Sisters. Air Blade would OHKO all of them, Noiseblaster also ruins them, they can't kill both in time.... though on second thought Noiseblaster is slightly interp-possible, if one sister wakes up another, then maybe that sister could finish off Edgar? Not how it works in FE, but whatever, they aren't twins anyway.
Basch & Gabranth qualify too, though figuring out what the hell with Basch is tricky. Off the top of my head Parry / Madchen murder them with a buffing game, and the FF4 twins... depends on twins damage respect. Gabranth's offense is horrible but he's got okay HP and I think has a chance of getting a long combo? If Palom / Porom are too slow with the damage they might theoretically sneak a win here since Basch can hopefully keep Porom healing-locked while Palom's the only damage-dealer. Then again I think Gabranth's combo chances only go up at low health (by which time Basch will be dead or Frogged) so maybe not.
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At 20/15 Ephraim is slightly quicker than Sabin. As in 1.09% cast average to 1.07%. Not sure if Sabin has anything that he could equip to change this at the expense of defense.
Eirika doubles Edgar
Ephraim hits Edgar
One of the 3 hits should crit... and 5 hits should drop Edgar easily enough.
If Sabin can fix his speed then Mantra could actually become relevant.
Eirika doubles Edgar
Sabin heals
Ephraim can't kill.
Eirika could probably kill with a crit+hit anyway... so it depends on if you see her second turn critting Edgar. If Edgar does get a turn... it's noise blaster ahoy! I'd kneejerk and say Eirika/Ephraim win this.
Oddly enough, the Pegasus sisters probably win as well. They're all faster than Sabin and 2 of them probably double Edgar. Edgar dies, and Sabin can airblade for 4x damage, but airblade blows. Even 4xed it'd only do 6800ish to a 9000 kill point. I don't think Edgar's epic physical counters would do 2200, even to the defense of the Peg knights... although it's possible it'd word on Florina, which would lead to her death and give Sabin a chance to win it.
Both end up being pretty good matches though.
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Air Blade would OHKO all of them
Not even close! Go look where Air Blade falls on the endgame damage curve. Never mind that FE7 pegs aren't weak to wind (Excalibur, and Fimbulvetr if you want to argue that is Wind) anyway.
Noiseblaster is pretty bad news, though yeah, the unconfuse thing does happen in FF6 so I'd certainly see it happening here.
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If a Pegasus Knight is FF6-Confused, does she hit herself? And if she -does- hit herself, can she Double? I mean, depending on your interp of FE speed and AS... Peg Knights could be Average Speed but regularly double most opponents, so when Confused, she would take her turn at Average Speed, but Double herself. In theory anyway.
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If a FE character self-targets they would definitely use FE rules for doubling, and you don't double someone with the same speed as you, which includes yourself. I hope everyone uses FE AS for doubling in FE-FE matches whether or not they take the "other casts are average AS" view. Matthew and Guy do not both double each other or anything similarly nonsenical.
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High Speed has the purpose of not just allowing you to double, but also allowing you to AVOID doubles.
I mean, yes, both Nergal and Eliwood don't really double much, so in that regard, their speed difference is negligible...FOR OFFENSIVE PURPOSES. At this point, AS goes from an Offensive stat to a Defensive one. Eliwood can avoid doubles from a fair amount of enemies since his speed is average; it takes a genuinely fast guy to double him, much like it takes a genuinely slow guy for him to double them. So he's not really at any major disadvantages defensively.
Nergal, meanwhile, gets doubled by nearly everything and their turtle (I'd say Dog, but dogs are often fast, so its not fair <.<), which is why his Low AS matters.
IOWs, people need to stop equating AS to simply "DO YOU DOUBLE?!" as "DO YOU GET DOUBLED!?" is equally important. The latter just doesn't come up for fast characters for obvious reasons, and the former for slow characters. For this reason, the idea of Florina doubling herself is ridiculous.
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If a FE character self-targets they would definitely use FE rules for doubling, and you don't double someone with the same speed as you, which includes yourself. I hope everyone uses FE AS for doubling in FE-FE matches whether or not they take the "other casts are average AS" view. Matthew and Guy do not both double each other or anything similarly nonsenical.
Well, I understand what you're saying. It makes a certain amount of sense to compare PCs from the same game directly. However, what about something like Matthew vs. Colm? FE7 stats are generally lower than FE8 stats, so a direct comparison is skewed in Colm's favor.
Where do you draw the lines between 'Doubles everything' 'Doesn't double or get doubled' and 'Doubled by everything' ?
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Its simple...
You compare them to their respective averages.
For example, when we were comparing Fire Emblem Lords, Tibarn was banned cause he's too good, despite falling under the technical definition (Leader of an Army w/ a Unique Job.) The person I was discussing this said Lyn may stand a chance a since she'd avoid a doubling and has bows to nail Tibarn's 3x weakness, I said that wasn't necessarily the case, we compared and Tibarn does indeed Double Lyn. naturally, we weren't going "Tibarn is 40 FE Speed, Lyn is 29 FE speed!" or whatever; that's just silly! We did it more like this:
Tibarn is 11 Points above average speed relative to his game. Lyn is 7 points above average speed relative to her game. 11 - 7 = 4. You need 4 points to double in an FE game, therefor, Tibarn doubles Lyn.
Eirika, meanwhile, barely avoids a double, being 8 points above Average, thus only 3 below Tibarn. However, she still loses cause while Siegliende hits a weakness, she can't avoid counters the way Lyn could, and that weapon lowers her speed below the threshold.
So yeah, raw speed doesn't matter, its still relative speed. You just simply do Character's Speed vs. their respective average, then compare the two. So a +4 AS speed doubles a perfectly average FE character, even if their numeric speed is identical (this matters mostly for FE10 vs. FE6-9)
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But doesn't even that +4 threshhold need to be averaged by game as well?
Tibarn may be 11 points above average AS, but if more people in his game are doubling average, then shouldn't the other FE games' lower AS average be taken into account when you're figuring out their AS as -defense- against being doubled?
Weird things like this are the reason that I've mostly just been viewing AS as 'Do they double? yes/no'. FE speed rules are pretty headachey and I'm almost to the point where I'm just going to start treating AS as standard speed and doubling happens CTB-style.
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I don't really understand Djinn's post, but not sure I'd see Tibarn doubling Lyn because he needing an extra 20 levels to get to that extra +4 threshold of 11 over her. So just for example if they were both the top of pack in their home games, it would seem reasonable that they'd be seen as about equal. Edited in: Need to be less lazy about getting the numbers for percentage of doubled/doubled by against in game enemies since I theoretically take it against that anyways.
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But doesn't even that +4 threshhold need to be averaged by game as well?
Tibarn may be 11 points above average AS, but if more people in his game are doubling average, then shouldn't the other FE games' lower AS average be taken into account when you're figuring out their AS as -defense- against being doubled?
Nah. It doesn't work linearly like CTB speed. In a loose sense, it's exponential, so the difference between values is what matters, not the ratio.
Someone who is +4 doubles average. This is completely independent of what the average is. If it's 1 or 251, it doesn't matter. Someone who is 4 above will double someone who is average. Period.
This is different when you have CTB speed, where comparing to 1 or 251 gives you speeds of 500% and 102% respectively.
Weird things like this are the reason that I've mostly just been viewing AS as 'Do they double? yes/no'. FE speed rules are pretty headachey and I'm almost to the point where I'm just going to start treating AS as standard speed and doubling happens CTB-style.
The problem I generally see with this is that it makes that line between +3.99999999 and +4 (or 3.49999999 and 3.5 if you round) really really really important, when it's not that big of a deal in-game because enemies often have differing AS values. I mean, I can see the argument, and it makes intuitive sense, but it... really overemphasizes that 0.0000001 way too much.
And as mentioned before FE characters actually have AS values to compare, so FE vs. FE matches will use them. Makes no sense to throw them out there.
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EDIT: This entire post refers mostly to FE vs. FE, specifically FE6 and after (where the +4 speed = double convention is used.) The idea of AS vs. games without AS is to be ignored here since that's a totally different argument altogether.
But doesn't even that +4 threshhold need to be averaged by game as well?
What? Doubling occurs when you're 4 points above average. Tibarn is 40 speed to a 29 average; that's 11 points above average. Lyn is, randomly, 28 speed to a 21 average; that's 7 points above average. Therefor, FE7 21 Speed is equivalent to FE10 29 Speed. This isn't a hard concept. Its like how we do ANY speed averaging. CT's 11 Average speed or whatever is equivalent to FF6's 35~ average speed, why can't we apply the same logic to FEs?
Tibarn may be 11 points above average AS, but if more people in his game are doubling average, then shouldn't the other FE games' lower AS average be taken into account when you're figuring out their AS as -defense- against being doubled?
First off, the reason more people double average in FE10 is cause its cast is much bigger than your standard FE. Secondly, I have no clue what you're actually saying here. What's this "lower AS" thing matter? If a character is 4 points below their average AS, they are doubled.
Lyon has 0 FE8 speed, he gets doubled by damn near everything under the sun, even Nergal. If FE8's average speed was only 3, then yeah, that 0 wouldn't seem as bad as Nergal's 14 or whatever, but FE8's average is in the 20s, so Lyon's ludicrously slow.
Flipside, Ike of FE10 has like 31 speed, faster than anyone prior in the series numerically outside of FE9 Naesala. Thing is? FE10's average is 29...so he's only 2 points above average. Thereby, he doesn't really double anything.
Weird things like this are the reason that I've mostly just been viewing AS as 'Do they double? yes/no'. FE speed rules are pretty headachey and I'm almost to the point where I'm just going to start treating AS as standard speed and doubling happens CTB-style.
There's really nothing hard about this to understand. Games have different average speeds, as I noted above, FE AS is no different. You have to find a way to make them compatible; FE7 does not have the same stat scale as FE8 (though, the two are close, I'm aware), which isn't the same as FE9, and all of them look nothing like FE10 and its stat scale which is much higher. Given FE games don't give a shit about %, and its all about raw addition and subtraction, its easy to make an adjustment.
Just do the following formula to figure out whether FE characters double:
Character's Speed - Average Speed of their HOME game. The enemies game is totally irrelevant.
Do this with both characters, then compare the two characters. Note the above value CAN be negative; that just means how far below average you are.
So FE10 Tibarn would have a score of "+11." FE7 Lyn would have a score of "+7." Eirika without her legendary is "+8". Nergal is "-10" or something really fail like that. FE9 Ike is "+4" (for sake of argument, I'm rounding up) Roy would have like a score of "+2 AS."
So Tibarn doubles everything in that list but Eirika.
Eirika doubles Ike, Roy and Nergal, but not Lyn, avoids getting doubled by Tibarn.
Lyn gets doubled by Tibarn, avoids getting doubled by Eirika, fails to double Ike, doubles Roy and Nergal no problem.
Ike doubles Nergal only, avoids being doubled by Lyn, gets doubled by Tibarn and Eirika.
Roy doubles no one but Nergal, and avoids getting doubled by no one but Ike.
Nergal sucks and is doubled by everyone!
Do you understand? Its a simple case of converting AS from their raw values into a +/- value relative to their respective averages. Just going "Do they double y/n?" isn't fair. Why should Florina double Fiora, when in game, when she faces an enemy of equivalent AS, she would fail miserably? Its giving an unfair advantage to fast FE characters and slow ones to go "Do they double y/n?"
As we can see in the above list, while Ike and Eirika would both double average, if the two square off, Eirika should be doubling Ike under cause she's still got +4 Speed on him despite Ike's already impressive value.
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But doesn't even that +4 threshhold need to be averaged by game as well?
Tibarn may be 11 points above average AS, but if more people in his game are doubling average, then shouldn't the other FE games' lower AS average be taken into account when you're figuring out their AS as -defense- against being doubled?
Nah. It doesn't work linearly like CTB speed. In a loose sense, it's exponential, so the difference between values is what matters, not the ratio.
Someone who is +4 doubles average. This is completely independent of what the average is. If it's 1 or 251, it doesn't matter. Someone who is 4 above will double someone who is average. Period.
This is different when you have CTB speed, where comparing to 1 or 251 gives you speeds of 500% and 102% respectively.
Okay, I understand what you're saying, but I think there's still some flaws, but perhaps my math is just off here.
Let's take the main character of a hypothetical non-FE game that has some kind of reasonable analog to AS. Only, instead of values in the 20s and 30s, we have values in the 500s or so. Jake McMainster of Theoretical game A here has an AS that is 40 points above average, but it takes a 50-point advantage to double something, so he'd only be doubling less-than-average AS enemies. Compared to an FE character though, he doubles everyone by their 4-point doubling rules. Obviously this is representative. How would you compensate for the difference?
This is what I was getting at as being confusing, though now that I've thought out a clearer example, the solution looks less troublesome than my initial impression. Didn't need the patronizing Meeple-lecture either, thanks.
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Are you asking what happens when 2 clearly different speed systems come up against each other, what happens? That...is a case by case basis.
In all FEs starting from 6 and after, 4 points = doubling. This has yet to change; even the DS remake of FE1 changed the 1 point convention to 4 points. So likewise, they're completely compatible. Its like CTB vs. CTB, basically, or heck, any system that allows for Double Turns, at least on a technical level (so ATB, Grandia's System, etc. all would qualify.) The only difference is that we're comparing raw differences instead of % values, but that's just how things work out based on the two different samples, cause FE cares about raw differences, not the %, while traditional speed systems are the other way around.
Considering they're completely compatible, there's really no reason to worry about that.
Earlier FEs vs. Modern ones? A little tougher, that'd be Attacker vs. Defender definition scenario.
Due to FE4, though, I'm inclined to go off Attacker's Definition cause its an aspect of the Pursuit skill here pretty much attributes that doubling is a trait of the attacker, not the defender. This is just for following rules though; I let FE characters get doubled in the DL, cause it reflects that penalty in game, at least for modern FEs. FE4, there's a clear restriction on doubling in regards to whether you have Pursuit or Not, so that's a little different. FE6 and after, anyone with -4 AS vs. an enemy was obviously at a huge durability disadvantage, and similarly, faster characters had a considerable offensive advantage, so this better reflects that.
Its really no different than Incompatible weapon Triangles, where there are a variety of views. I've heard ones like "Average out the Weapon Triangles!" and what not. Personally, I just go with a view where only the Offensive benefits of Weapon Triangle exist, by which I mean if Lyn were to attack Kongol, Lyn would get a Hit and Damage boost, but Kongol would be completely ineffected. This makes the translating between 2 incompatible weapon triangles easy, since the FE character has no impact on the other character; they just get a stat boost/penalty to themselves.
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Okay, I understand what you're saying, but I think there's still some flaws, but perhaps my math is just off here.
Let's take the main character of a hypothetical non-FE game that has some kind of reasonable analog to AS. Only, instead of values in the 20s and 30s, we have values in the 500s or so. Jake McMainster of Theoretical game A here has an AS that is 40 points above average, but it takes a 50-point advantage to double something, so he'd only be doubling less-than-average AS enemies. Compared to an FE character though, he doubles everyone by their 4-point doubling rules. Obviously this is representative. How would you compensate for the difference?
This is what I was getting at as being confusing, though now that I've thought out a clearer example, the solution looks less troublesome than my initial impression. Didn't need the patronizing Meeple-lecture either, thanks.
+40 when it takes 50 to double is like +3.2 when it takes 4 to double. If the difference needed is different, THEN you have to scale it. But when FE games are compared, the difference is always 4, so you don't need to scale.
The "flaws" only come up if you assume this +4 is absolute over every theoretical game, instead of just due to the fact all (relevant) FEs use it.