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RPGDL Games => Forum Games => Topic started by: Excal on May 22, 2010, 01:43:02 AM

Title: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Excal on May 22, 2010, 01:43:02 AM
Normally, no one would have cared.  After all, it was the DL, extra dimensional invaders were as common as you'd expect in a place full of evil summoners, genius types with more brains than common sense, and a full platoon of bored adventurers.  The only reason people cared this time was because Kefka and Luca Blight were bored, and had managed to wrangle up some intruders, and some people that no one else really cared all that much about, and for whatever reason, wanted entertainment in the form of some bizarre combination of a lynch mob and the democratic process.

So, two sides pitted one against the other, with neither able to leave until they've won.

Each Day Phase will last 72 hours, at which point Kefka and Luca get bored and will consult with their partner in crime, Nyarlahatbot in order to decide tie breaks, or will simply off whoever has the most votes.  This may be extended if the conversation is still interesting, but any lulls after this point will end the day.  Nights will be roughly 24 hours, but are also malleable.

Scum have all been given covers which suit their powers and the themes which govern PC characters.  So a mass character claim will not solve the game.

There are several powers in play which can raise or lower the power level of other people.  These changes rarely last more than one night.  You will be told if you are so effected, and it will take effect on the next night.

Aside from that, have fun and happy hunting.



11. Roukanken (replacing Quietrain) - Captain Falcon, SCUM Bounty Hunter
12. Snowfire - Richard Hawk, SCUM VPotGUSoA


Dead:

5.  Glen (Replacing Laggy/Cyril) - Matthew, Town Thief - Permakilled Day 1
7.  Ciato - Thomas, Third Party Tenkai Star - Shot Night 1
10. Noyn - Mike Meekins, Scum Badger - Salary Renegotiated Day 2
13. Xanth - Rolf Landale, Town Godlike - Walked Off Day 2
6.  Alice - Radius, Town Amnesiac Cop - Slain Day 2
3.  Yoshiken - Balk, Town Poisoner - Assassinated Night 2
1.  Kilga - Jin Shirato, Town Persona User - Squished Day 3
2.  Metroid Composite - Vinsfeld Radamanthus, Town Terrorist - Squished Day 3
4.  Carthrat  - Raja, Town Doctor - Squished Day 3
8.  Taishyr - Koroku, Town Doglike - Gunned down by Metal Wolf!!! Day 3
9.  Zenny - Odin, Beloved All-Father - Falcon PAUNCHED Day 3


End of Day 1 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108853.html#msg108853)

It is, currently Day 3.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 23, 2010, 10:52:04 PM
Everyone's confirmations and actions have been received.  Day 1 has now started, and will end at 3PM Wenesday Afternoon, PST.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 23, 2010, 10:53:31 PM
##Vote: Alice
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 23, 2010, 10:58:22 PM
According to reliable sources, Carthrat is actually Hitler.
Wolfenstein 3D is, however, not ranked in the DL.
Carthrat must be unranked scum!

##VOTE: Carthrat
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on May 23, 2010, 11:07:18 PM
LAGGY, POSTING WITHOUT ANYTHING BUT A VOTE? SCUM!

##VOTE: Laggy
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 23, 2010, 11:25:48 PM
##VOTE: Taishyr
##UNVOTE: Taishyr (I refuse to keep my vote on myself, thanks, nice try though Dune)
##VOTE: Carthrat

I fully admit this was randomly chosen.

And by randomly chosen I mean I asked Dune for random numbers without telling him what it was for, but somehow he smelled Rat (after trying to prank me. what the hell, man?). Man, does this count as starting a train early? choo choo~ (love you too Carthrat)

besides rat's clearly lurking he hasn't posted yet clearly scum amirite or amirite iamrite rite rite rite? or something. Whateves. Off for now~
Title: Rose Light Sawdust
Post by: Xanth on May 23, 2010, 11:32:53 PM
##Vote: Xanth

What am I even doing here. How does DL worked lol?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 23, 2010, 11:36:28 PM
Ciato, doing the Otter-badger?  SCUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMY~!

##Vote: Ciato
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 23, 2010, 11:44:37 PM
My vote will turn serious when Alice goes 24-48 hours without a post.

And then I won't have to do anything and thus indulge in laziness.

Gosh, Ciato, get a grip. I'm so good at this I can post and not say anything while still get my intent across totally not scummy at all
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: QuietRain on May 24, 2010, 12:13:41 AM
##Vote: Tai

Mindy is the progenitor of all that is evil.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 24, 2010, 12:18:24 AM
##Vote: Metroid Composite

The last time there was a replacement scramble in an Excal game, it was for a scum.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 24, 2010, 12:34:49 AM
##Vote: Tai

Mindy is the progenitor of all that is evil.

Oooooh, but I'm so sweet and kind and innocent, I couldn't ever do anything wrooong~ okay I love you bye bye~!

##UNVOTE: Carthrat
##VOTE: Kilgamayan

For using nasty, evil, cruel, mean, despicable metagame logic to try and figure things out during the jokevote phase! ...wait, but that must be what you WANT me to think! I see, but your evil mindgames won't have any effect on me, no sirree!

##UNVOTE: Kilgamayan
##VOTE: Carthrat

EVEN YOUR MIND RAYS CANNOT PENETRATE MY SPECIAL HAT MADE OUT OF MAGICAL FRUIT AND DIRT FROM THE LANDS FAR BEYOND WALLA-WALLA BIN-BING-BONG!

(...what, I'm gonna milk jokevote phase for as much humor as I can. also rat get the fuck outta my house's waaaaallllls, seriously ;_;)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 24, 2010, 12:49:36 AM
Same problem here, Tai!  For those who haven't heard the terrible threat of the slithering, scurrying rats whose scampering will never let me sleep; the daemon rats that race behind the padding in this room and beckon me down to greater horrors than I have ever known; the rats they can never hear; the rats, the rats in the walls, there's a soundtrack you can listen to (http://static.somethingawful.com/d/photoshop-phriday/soothing-sounds-cds.php?page=6).

(http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/07-07-06-sounds/CarnivorousThing.jpg)

Say NO to Lurking Rats in the Walls!  Vote Carthrat today!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 24, 2010, 12:58:49 AM
##Vote: Kilgamayan

Plays well as scum. Clearly we should kill him and prevent good scum living amirite?!?!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 24, 2010, 01:28:52 AM
We must remain true to our morals and ideals...and if our great moral leader Carthrat has taught us anything, it's that our ideals are to Lynch All Lurkers!

##VOTE: Carthrat
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Noyn on May 24, 2010, 02:24:11 AM
The heck? First day and I'm not happy enough to vote?! -_-
Not quite sure what happened, but it seems I got  depressions and won't be able to vote for the next two days. lol
Anyone has an idea what happened to me? Cause I don't. ._.

But guess I'll give it a try anyhow, maybe it's a bastard mod joke or something (I sure hope so >_<).

##VOTE: Carthrat
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 24, 2010, 02:54:30 AM
Whoa whoa whoa wait a minute why the hell is everyone jumping on Rat.  If Noyn's vote count that puts him at L-3, and if scum haven't already tossed their votes onto him they can easily pile on for a mislynch right this second.

So, uh.  What the hell guys.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 24, 2010, 03:01:50 AM
Also, may as well verify Noyn's claim while we're at it.  Vote count, please.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 24, 2010, 03:06:19 AM
Whoa whoa whoa wait a minute why the hell is everyone jumping on Rat.  If Noyn's vote count that puts him at L-3, and if scum haven't already tossed their votes onto him they can easily pile on for a mislynch right this second.

So, uh.  What the hell guys.

oh noes scum suddenly piles on and mislynches rat d1 making them -incredibly- obvious and thus giving town the game, because another three votes on rat wouldn't look suspicious at all, nope.

Yeah, no. I mean sure I understand why the hesitation on the speed of Rattrain but this seems a bit overreacting, both as to severity overall and as to immediacy of the situation (panicmongering, actually - "right this second"? is that supposed to send my heart aflutter or something?). THAT being said, calling out Noyn just a touch for the vote isn't a terrible idea (MC seems still solidly jokevote).

Thus, I want to hear from Noyn regarding vote placement decision logic, even if only in brief. Vote stands for the moment, in accordance with above statement.

tl;dr: stop being such a wimp zenny and TRAIN HARDER okay I love you bye bye~

NINJA EDIT: Seconding votecount request.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 24, 2010, 03:08:11 AM
Well we're jumping on Rat because he is EVIL and SCUM and a RAT but point.  Noyn raises an interesting claim of being voteless...  is this game Carthrat's revenge?  He was voteless in that other game, though this sounds like a "lower the power level" effect from the opening post.

On the off chance that Noyn does in fact have a vote (though a scumhammer d1 is the WORST IDEA EVAR),

##UNVOTE: Carthrat

But requesting...  ninja'd, but yeah, a vote count would be nice.  Okay, dual ninja'd!  Taishyr said everything I was going to say.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 24, 2010, 03:10:30 AM
Day 1 Votes

Alice (1): Cyril,
Carthrat (2): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid
Cyril (1): Ciato
Taishyr (1): Taishyr, Quietrain
Xanth (1): Xanth
Ciato (1): Zenny
MC (1): Kilga
Kilga (1): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Noyn (1): Excal

Noyn is actually at 0, but even Mods need their jokevotes!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Noyn on May 24, 2010, 03:11:44 AM
Mäh forgot I could ask the Vote count, I blame my lack of sleep due playing all night (04.00am here. xD).
But yeah Vote count, please.

Thought and also just in case it's a bastrad Mod joke.

##UNVOTE: Carthrat
##VOTE: Kilga

Don't take it bad, just figured if it is as Makkotah said and my vote actually will be counted it could lead to mislynch.
So I'll rather vote someone who has no vote yet, just in case. If it's actually counted I'll unvote you right away, if not no it's fine anyway.
Either way no harm done. :>
Thaks for piintign that out Makkotah, again I blame my lack of sleep fro not seeing that. >_>
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 24, 2010, 03:15:40 AM
Day 1 Votes

Alice (1): Cyril,
Carthrat (2): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid
Cyril (1): Ciato
Taishyr (1): Taishyr, Quietrain
Xanth (1): Xanth
Ciato (1): Zenny
MC (1): Kilga
Kilga (1): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Noyn (2): Excal, Excal

Nothing to see here, folks.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Noyn on May 24, 2010, 03:17:11 AM
Heh three post while I was writing and as it seems I can't vote. -_-
Great on top of being the new guy I:ve been rendered usless for the first two days. >_<
That's what you call a warm welcome I guess. lol

Oh Taitoro  as for the reason of vote placement, there was none. =P
Since I'm new I've no idea who's a good scum player, good town player good overall player.
Who it would be a good idea to vote first day without any hints, I just picked the one the peron above me voted to check if I can vote or not. :o
Didn't realize the mass of votes on Carthrat as said before. :/
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 24, 2010, 03:20:14 AM
Mäh forgot I could ask the Vote count, I blame my lack of sleep due playing all night (04.00am here. xD).
But yeah Vote count, please.

Thought and also just in case it's a bastrad Mod joke.

##UNVOTE: Carthrat
##VOTE: Kilga

Don't take it bad, just figured if it is as Makkotah said and my vote actually will be counted it could lead to mislynch.
So I'll rather vote someone who has no vote yet, just in case. If it's actually counted I'll unvote you right away, if not no it's fine anyway.
Either way no harm done. :>
Thaks for piintign that out Makkotah, again I blame my lack of sleep fro not seeing that. >_>

Just so you know, if you try to post when someone else makes a post before you're done, you will get a

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Given that Excal typed up a votecount while you were typying that post, you probably should have reacted to his votecount.  (Obviously I'm not implying a scum tell or anything; this is your sixth post on these forums and they work a bit differently than other forums; no big).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Noyn on May 24, 2010, 03:24:45 AM
Mäh forgot I could ask the Vote count, I blame my lack of sleep due playing all night (04.00am here. xD).
But yeah Vote count, please.

Thought and also just in case it's a bastrad Mod joke.

##UNVOTE: Carthrat
##VOTE: Kilga

Don't take it bad, just figured if it is as Makkotah said and my vote actually will be counted it could lead to mislynch.
So I'll rather vote someone who has no vote yet, just in case. If it's actually counted I'll unvote you right away, if not no it's fine anyway.
Either way no harm done. :>
Thaks for piintign that out Makkotah, again I blame my lack of sleep fro not seeing that. >_>

Just so you know, if you try to post when someone else makes a post before you're done, you will get a

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Given that Excal typed up a votecount while you were typying that post, you probably should have reacted to his votecount.  (Obviously I'm not implying a scum tell or anything; this is your sixth post on these forums and they work a bit differently than other forums; no big).

Aye thanks, I realized when I wrote my last post. But thanks for telling me anyway I get it now. :>

On another note I wonder just how many jokevotes I'll end up with in this game. xD
And call me over cautious, but they won't have a nasty side effect will they?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 24, 2010, 03:28:29 AM
Quote
Carthrat (3): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid

Er, Excal, I unvoted Carth.  But don't worry, I have a great new target.

Noyn is actually at 0, but even Mods need their jokevotes!

This is true, mods do need jokevotes.

##VOTE: Excal

Though it seems srs bizness started strangely quickly this game!  So on the more serious note...  I'm not sure what to make of this, but looking back Noyn said he'd be voteless for two days.  The opening post says that such effects "rarely" last beyond a single day.  Well, rarely isn't never, and I don't think Noyn is lying or even mistaken about this, since we'll find out very quickly on Day 2 if you are... just a weird fact to file away.

##UNVOTE: Excal
##VOTE: Carthrat (STILL EVIL)

Ninja'd: In your average game of Mafia, Noyn, votes are completely harmless until you've been lynched.  (Which is pretty harmful, granted.)  If votes do something else, you probably know already because it'll be in your character description, but such things are VERY RARE.  The only example I can think of was Shale in Super Smash Bros. Mafia, where he had an "HP bar" that took damage based on votes on him at the end of each day.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Noyn on May 24, 2010, 03:42:16 AM
Though it seems srs bizness started strangely quickly this game!  So on the more serious note...  I'm not sure what to make of this, but looking back Noyn said he'd be voteless for two days.  The opening post says that such effects "rarely" last beyond a single day.  Well, rarely isn't never, and I don't think Noyn is lying or even mistaken about this, since we'll find out very quickly on Day 2 if you are... just a weird fact to file away.

As you said "rarely isn't never" and I always had the worst kind of luck.
Not sure what you mean with the "just a weird fact to file away", but since I couldn't vote today I'm pretty sure I won't be able to Day 2 either.
Not that I'm happy about having that pretty much confrimed now. :s
But if it makes you happy and lose the doubts you may have (even if I wonder what there's left to doubt), I'll surely try it tomorrow again.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 24, 2010, 04:03:25 AM
Zenny, scum piling onto Carthrat to pull a sudden end to D1 via train? Really? Come on. I'd give props to scumteam if they played that blatantly.

In all seriousness, Rat's in Aussieland and probably just now coming around. Give 'em time. My preemptive prod for Alice lurkerdom still stands though!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 24, 2010, 04:33:50 AM
Poooondering more serious votes; there's some straws I could grasp at, but they're very, very, very flimsy straws at this point, so I'm not sure I should.

In the mean time...

Each Day Phase will last 72 hours, at which point Kefka and Luca get bored and will consult with their partner in crime, Nyarlahatbot in order to decide tie breaks, or will simply off whoever has the most votes.

I'm curious, does this mean that hammers do not exist in this game?  They're not mentioned anywhere in the opening post.  Granted, I'm sure we'll be able to tell by the votecounts soon enough.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 24, 2010, 04:36:44 AM
Hammers do exist.  They will happen when there is majority vote on one person.  As they are not random, they are your friend.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 24, 2010, 07:19:22 AM
Mph, fair enough.  It would be stupidly obvious for scum to hammer like that.  I still don't like seeing anyone at L-3 before they've had time to post.

Also hey look I've definitely seen Alice in IRC today and there's not even a joke vote around.  Turned out to be a null tell last game, admittedly.  Still not super happy fun times though.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Carthrat on May 24, 2010, 08:12:26 AM
haha look rat called out lurkers and he hasn't said anything HILARIOUS HYPOCRISY HATING OPPORTUNITY

Ok moving on

##Vote: metroid because voting for me is totally not flimsy at all amirite
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 24, 2010, 12:43:51 PM
it's a rat.

okay. two things of note: Noyn seems to end up with a modvote whenever he tries to vote today, and Noyn's logic is at least passable (we've had far more trainwrecky cases of not noticing before, so hardly gonna chastise him, esp. since the vote wasn't sure to count anywho). no other comments just yet.

outside of that I've got errands, back in about six-eight hours or so. (OMIGOD SCUMTELL I'M SAYING WHEN I'LL BE BACK OMIGODOMIGODOMIGODOMIGOD)

Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 24, 2010, 03:55:14 PM
Poooondering more serious votes; there's some straws I could grasp at, but they're very, very, very flimsy straws at this point, so I'm not sure I should.

Flimsy straws are still better than pure gags. No reason not to chase them.

Vote turns serious on these grounds.

Noyn's votelessness acknowledged. Nothing to really say there that wouldn't be role speculation.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: QuietRain on May 24, 2010, 04:54:26 PM
Non-game note: Herniated disks suck.  Vicodin is my friend, but may play a bit of havok with my ability to be coherant.  Will do the best I can.  Not going to remove myself, but expect a tad bit of slowness than I usually take to respond.  I've got Gate watching the game for me since sitting at the chair is somewhat problematic for me atm, so if things heat up before I'm due a regular check in and I need to comment, he'll let me know.

-----------------------------

First off, jokevotes are fun, but better to get on with more serious things, so
##UNVOTE: Tai

If I can find time to go ahead and make a post, I expect others to have as well.  Lurking is always grounds for concern. 
##VOTE: Alice
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 24, 2010, 06:41:55 PM
So srs biznes mafia is beginning, judging from Kilga's post?  Right.

okay. two things of note: Noyn seems to end up with a modvote whenever he tries to vote today, and Noyn's logic is at least passable (we've had far more trainwrecky cases of not noticing before, so hardly gonna chastise him, esp. since the vote wasn't sure to count anywho). no other comments just yet.

Actually Excal said Noyn was really at 0 votes, he was just having fun.  So Noyn can flail his votes about safely if harmlessly.  Which you should, Noyn; even if you can't vote we're interested in what you think.

##UNVOTE: Carthrat
##VOTE: Cyrilaggy

Two things, one of which I don't think is a scumtell but worthy of talking about, the other is quite minor but it's something to get Day 1 going.

First: Laggy's prophecy is coming true!  Behold, no Alice!  Well...  I'm all for lynch all lurkers but if Alice truly does disappear completely (and Laggy claimed his vote would become serious if this happened) then this is more grounds for a modkill than a lynch.  This came up in Simpsons Mafia where scum tried to start a "pressure" train on someone who wasn't around early Day 1.  However I don't really consider this an issue because, well, in Cthulu Mafia Alice got away with posting very little and still evaded a modkill, and Excal is about as reluctant to modkill as I am, so we shouldn't rely on a modkill to get rid of lurkers.  And Alice is definitely online rather than busy with Real Life, so he is presumably reading the thread and "pressure" votes might actually work to bring our favorite lurker out.  So I don't really hold this against Laggy / QuietRain.

Second:  Actual reason I'm voting Laggy is because he tossed in a "And this is an excuse for me to be lazy!" to his vote, which might be setting up grounds for doing nothing himself while waiting out Alice's post (which will come 3 hours before deadline if Cthulu Mafia is any indication).  Yeah this is kind of weaksauce as a complaint but it's Day 1.

This vote is serious but only as serious as any early Day 1 vote is, considering what flimsy evidence we have to work with.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 24, 2010, 06:59:46 PM
"Well, now, when Highland dispatched a request for assistance from Harmonia, I never quite imagined lord Blight would be entertaining a rather... peculiar hobby, we shall say."

Sasarai calmly sips his tea. The small host of Harmonian soldiers watch their War Bishop quietly - they know better than to speak when their leader is drinking tea. Like a refined gentleman.

"Now, then, how about a report of the current standings?"

Day 1 Votes

Alice (2): Cyril, QuietRain
Carthrat (2): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid
Cyril (2): Ciato, Snowfire
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain
Xanth (1): Xanth
Ciato (1): Zenny
MC (2): Kilga, Carthrat
Kilga (1): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Noyn (2): Excal, Excal
Excal (0): Snowfire

As there are 13 chumps still arguing, it'll take an agreement by 7 to send someone to re-education.

Day 1 will end on Wednesday, 3PM PST. As it appears to be 11:00 AM on Monday right now, I believe there are 52 hours remaining until deadline.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 24, 2010, 07:02:51 PM
I am perfectly willing to admit being lazy on Day
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 24, 2010, 07:04:34 PM
...hotkey'd posted before I could finish.

ANYWAY. 1 was the end of that.

I will not rely on modkills to handle anything (not voting someone because their inactivity warrants a modkill is silly until the modkill actually happens) and I will use metagame galore to confer that Alice's lurkiness has been a great cover for scum play before and, in the absence of other tangible leads at the moment, I will continue to follow up on it.

Also your remarks that 'srs bzness' starting this early baffles me. The less Day 1 BS gagplay we have to sift through the better.
Title: Electrode Digger Nightingale
Post by: Xanth on May 24, 2010, 07:50:57 PM
I was going to apologise for being so busy and having so little for the game and all, but looks like it really doesn't make a difference yet.

##Unvote

Noyn: yeah, yeah, votelessness, okay, sure. Can you still go ahead and use the vote/unvote system as if your vote counted anyway? It might vaguely irritate the moddery, but I don't want the votelessness to lead into a good excuse not to make your opinions very clearly known. If trying to vote while voteless does have a negative effect, then do the same but with FoS. The whole votelessness thing is a null tell and all, but I can see the obvious potential scum gambits leading out from it.

Voting for Alice for lurking is like voting for Rat for being Rat. Except not, since it's actually bad, and Alice probably needs to learn to stop it by being lynched enough times. That being said, I'm really not fond of people jumping right on into LaL at the very start when it's the earliest of placeholder votes possible. I mean what, at this point all he needs do is wave and do a silly dance and be free again. And with Alice, who knows how much time you'd get to buy before having to place an actual vote.

I was actually going to lead on into a vote on QR on this basis of simple manoeuvring, nice and clinical and all, but oh hey there Laggy, what's going on? Alice may well use lurking as part of scum gambits, but if you're going to gesture at metagaming to prop your argument up, then I'll point you right at Cthulhu Mafia, where Alice's greatest super lurking play of all time that threatened to send me crazy for the third time in the game turned out to mask a townie.

Yeah, no. That's altogether too much of a push.

##Vote: Laggy
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 24, 2010, 07:53:20 PM
Poooondering more serious votes; there's some straws I could grasp at, but they're very, very, very flimsy straws at this point, so I'm not sure I should.

Flimsy straws are still better than pure gags. No reason not to chase them.

Okay then.  Time to grasp at a very flimsy straw.  Oh, but first:

##UNVOTE: Carthrat
##VOTE: Alice
##UNVOTE: Alice

Just declaring my willingness to stick to Carthrat's pure ideals and play the Lurker pressure game.

Yeah, no. I mean sure I understand why the hesitation on the speed of Rattrain but this seems a bit overreacting, both as to severity overall and as to immediacy of the situation (panicmongering, actually - "right this second"? is that supposed to send my heart aflutter or something?). THAT being said, calling out Noyn just a touch for the vote isn't a terrible idea (MC seems still solidly jokevote).

Thus, I want to hear from Noyn regarding vote placement decision logic, even if only in brief. Vote stands for the moment, in accordance with above statement.

My post was solidly jokevote?  Actually, there's bits and pieces of it that aren't.  In particular, it wasn't an accident that I jumped on the train of 3 people--my experience with Mafia comes mostly from reading Meme Mafia and Cthulu Mafia, both times where Alex did weird stuff like Early Train to read reactions out of people and break us into serious vote time.

And well...I don't see the point in NOT asking me for vote placement logic--at worst I say "lol, oops, jokevote, wasn't paying attention" and we're left with just as much information as making a post dismissing my post as "solidly jokevote, no need to ask."  At best, we get a bit more information.

Or maybe there is a player meta reason to put no pressure on me--if you want to look the good guy; I mean, quite apart from the fact that I'm an unknown quantity and thus people are probably half-expecting me to OMGUS someone, I'm told that I evoke a "little sister, must protect" instinct in some 6-7 DLers IRL, so attacking me might leave a few people with a "negative feeling they can't place".  Noyn, on the other hand, carries none of the baggage (and probably rubs the grammar whores the wrong way)--safe to pressure him.


And obviously yes, this is a flimsy grasping at straws just like I promised--the non joke elements of my "joke post" are subtle and perhaps easily missed.  But it is something I noticed and thought "huh, that's...odd."

##VOTE: Taitoro
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 24, 2010, 08:02:40 PM
Whether it masked a townie or not in one particular instanced game is... pretty irrelevant to me! Lurkering of that magnitude is bad either way.

Sure, Alice could come by and do the song and dance and prove that he's here, but going off of what exists right now (basically nothing) versus fickle situational metagaming is fine by me. And, honestly? Taking a firm stance draws people and gets them voting each other on actual non-joke cases, even if that draws votes towards me. Which lends to a more productive use of Day 1 time than normal.

I am pretty sure that I stand by LAL being a better tactic than pushing buttons on someone for using metagaming (which everyone inevitably does to a degree, even scum, if you've played scum at all you would know this), so my vote still stands.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 24, 2010, 08:28:09 PM
It read entirely as a joke vote to me due to referencing the Hitlermeme video (which thus connects the LAL comment to hitlermeme, and thus the joking quality), whereas I was willing to push Noyn for something more since the vote on Rat came entirely out of the blue (fourth potential vote for Rat, not even any comment at -all- about Rat in his post so there was no way at all to conclude if he was trying for a jokevote or testing his vote or had a reason or what. He provided an at least passable reasoning for now, I've no complaints for now as it stands.) And frankly calling Rat a "lurker" indirectly that early seemed incredibly silly so I came to a (for me) logical conclusion, which was that the entire line was meant in jest - and thus so was the vote.

ngh, christ, I made a promise to myself I was gonna keep walls of text down. Long story short I also noticed you being third on the train but shrugged because I read it as a jokevote while considering Noyn (very slightly, see above for why) more suspicious. Frankly, jokevote phase, meta makes train setup go anywhichway, it doesn't concern me too much.

Ninja Laggy, more theorycruft on LAL. I say we lynch scum! (shaddup I know that's the intended point of LAL) Seriously, though, I... eh. LAL is a good idea when you don't think someone is more suspicious than a lurker! Lurking can be very suspicious! But playing by hard and fast rules is not my style and I dislike advocation for one side over another since it drowns out looking for scum. So. Scum! I've got a nice strawberry here, any of you want it? I promise I won't bite~ (harder than a crocodile)

##UNVOTE: Carthrat
##VOTE: Zenthor/Makkotah

Main lead I have thus far, in keeping with my own words. Jumping to cover Rat sits poorly with me, especially as it was phrased. This is like saying a piece of wood is more suspicious than a rock right now, granted, and bofh's early silence is grating - especially since I have to presume he did confirm or the game wouldn't have started, thus he would have to know the game started which removes my one possible clemency for him. But Zenthor's sudden jump for "whoa, dudes, RAT MIGHT BE LYNCHED IF SCUM DOGPILE" is... well. Enough for vote switch and serious modo.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 24, 2010, 08:29:19 PM
this just in, I suck at reigning in walls of text.

next up, Dune likes avataring dogs and kappas spin. news at 11.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 24, 2010, 08:34:58 PM
Alright, I have an update on the Alice situation.  Talked briefly with him, and apparently something came up very suddenly around the start of game, and depending on what happens, may need to be replaced.  I'm still double checking things since I so very much want to avoid a replacement, but if there's any stage at which to do this, Day 1 is it, so I am also looking into potential replacements for Alice at this point in case it does become necessary.

Oh, right, and a vote count.
Day 1 Votes

Alice (2): Cyril, Quietrain, [i[Metroid[/i]
Carthrat (1): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire
Cyril (3): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth
Taishyr (1): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (0): Xanth
Ciato (1): Zenny
MC (2): Kilga, Carthrat
Kilga (1): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (1): Taishyr
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal
Excal (0): Snowfire

With 13 alive it takes 7 votes to lynch.

There are 50.5 hours left in Day 1.

EDIT: Geez, some people expect accuracy in their vote counts.  What's up with that?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 24, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
re: walls of text.

I'm taking a personal stance to avoid writing anything more than a few lines or a paragraph at worst. Call it self-enforced succinctness. You, too, can get your intent and words across without drowning the topic in pages.

Interesting observation on Zenny's slightly alarmist attitude there. I had an inkling towards that direction as well, but I didn't really see it as a firm indicator either way. It's also worth noting Rat hasn't actually said anything that can be worked with yet despite showing up!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 24, 2010, 08:45:25 PM
I have two votes now and MC has none. I -see-.

I am magical special awesome voting person dude. Also I see re: bofh.

NINJA EDIT LAGGY: Online in gamingz I am verbose Laggy, this is a habit I've tried to kick and failed. (It's important to explain yourself, at least to me.) I prefer to be fully understood than to have confusion sprout since I said too little, but.

Re: Rat, yes also a good point. Was considering waiting for more from him but decided to just move to where I felt the more pressing issue was.

Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 24, 2010, 08:49:43 PM
Because being wary of putting someone at L-3 with a possible 3-4 scum is soooooooo overreacting.  Well, a little, I'll grant.  But there's absolutely no reason to be putting someone so close to lynch unless it's to provoke a response, and it just seemed (rightly) that Noyn was being a spaz instead of pulling an Alex.  

And, my phrasing of it?  Panicky, maybe, and I have no excuse for that that won't just come off as OMGUS, but it was true--given no scumvotes on Carthrat at the time, they could have lynched right that second.

At my lunch break so I can't go too much detail right now, but as it is LAL sounds better to me than anything else, especially since I've metaseen Alice in chat and he hasn't even thrown in a token post yet.  Relying on modkills is stupid and a little bit scummy (assuming TownAlice of course... score a townie modkill, mislynch, and a night kill in one day?  Sounds like a pretty enticing prize.) Tai seems kind of towny right now since his suspicions of me are mostly valid in light of appeals to emotion being a valid scum tactic, though not grilling MC is a little off to me but hey look ninja and not so much anymore.  And hey look I got to get back to work.  More later.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 24, 2010, 08:50:33 PM
Clarification on the second paragraph:  Not that that wouldn't have been mindbogglingly stupid, but yeah.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 24, 2010, 09:06:42 PM
Actually, to the contrary, Zenny, you get all sorts of interesting reactions when people are at -3 or -2 to hammer, which leads to a lot more Relevant Things being said than not. It's important to note that (especially on Day 1) this is usually no firm indicator that person is actually going to be the lynch. This is a game where trains develop and how people play off of them is how you piece together the puzzle.

Also I am blind and missed Excal's ninjapost about Alice's whereabouts. Well then.

##Unvote: Alice
##Vote: Carthrat

Following up on what I said earlier! Rat, your input would be most appreciated on the day's events thus far. After all I'm not so keen about trains developing and then learning nothing about the train target from them!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 24, 2010, 09:09:50 PM
Trying to par down people who don't have content...

Quote
Laggy:
Jokevotes Alice
Says his post will turn serious in 24-48 hours.
Zenny, we're not in danger at L-3.  Alice pressure still stands.
Admits D1 lazy
Will not rely on modkills for pressure; wants srs business to start early
Fine with drawing early votes due to LAL stance if it gets people to take a stand.
Agrees with Tai on Zenny, and mentions Rat lack of content.
Points out Excal gave an explanation about Alice; switches vote to Carthrat.

SnowFire:
Jokevotes Carthrat
Provides more flavour for carthrat jokevote.
Eek, L-3!  Unvote Carthrat!!
Oh, there's a power that lasts two days.  rejokevotes Carthrat! (#3 jokevote train)
Votes Laggy for lazy-declaration

Ciato:
Jokevotes Laggy

Tai:
Jokevotes Carthrat (#2 jokevote train)
Jokevote switches to Kilga, then back to Carthrat (#2 jokevote)
Zenny we're not in danger from an L-3.  Pressure Noyn for reasoning.  No pressure on metroid composite.
Noyn's story holds up.
Read mc's post as entirely jokevote; noticed the early train but felt it was pretty random
vote Zenthor based on "DANGER FROM L-3"
Agrees with Laggy on Rat

Xanth:
Jokevotes self
Anti LAL stance--particularly dislikes Laggy metagaming.  vote Laggy.

Zenny:
Jokevotes Ciato
OMG Carthrat at L-3!  WE ARE IN DANGER!
Okay, maybe we're not in danger.  Oh, I saw Alice in IRC today but no post....
Supports LAL; does not move jokevote, though....

QuietRain:
Jokevotes Tai
LAL votes Alice

Kilgamayan:
Jokevotes metroid comoposite
Declares metroid composite vote to be serious on grounds of not pursuing flimsy straws.

Yoshiken:
Jokevotes Kilga

metroid composite:
Jokevotes Carthrat (#3 jokevote train)
"Hi, welcome to the forums, here's how they work"
"Should grasp at a flimsy straw?"
OMGURule-votes Taitoro

Noyn:
Claims voteless for the next two days, tries to vote Carthrat.
Eek L-3!  Unvote Carthrat, Vote Kilga.
"Reason for my vote placement was copy/paste vote above me" (story checks out)
"I wonder if these mod votes against me will hurt later?"
Will post tomorrow to confirm no-vote.

Carthrat:
Jokevote OMGUS for metroid composite (#2 on jokevote train)

Alice:

Enough to read somewhat
Laggy: for all that he says he's going to be lazy, he's posted a fair bit, pointed out things that haven't been pointed out yet (rat's no actual content, Alice being mentioned in modpost).
SnowFire: Makes a note of a few things that hadn't been explicitly emphasized.
Tai: First to react to Zenny L-3 situation with a vote, if nothing else.
metroid composite: There should be enough to go by on me now.

Very little to go on
Xanth: Jumps on the laggy train for a reason already posted by SnowFire (laggy said he'd be lazy)
Zenny: Calling everyone on a train retards sounds like something Zenny would do at some point during the game whether scum or town; feels like a null tell given Zenny, so his only real contribution is "I saw Alice in chat."  and "I support LAL, but haven't bothered to move my jokevote."
Kilga: Okay, limited information at the time of last posting, and a reasonable stance; I want to hear again from Kilga now that more information is in the open.

Lurk/Active Lurk
Ciato--only jokevote.
Quiet Rain--hard to get much out of an LAL vote; understandable given IRL situation, to be fair.
Yoshiken--only jokevote.
Noyn--I see nothing posted that is not a null tell; take some opinions about people.
Carthrat--only jokevote.
Alice--nothing.

So...that's 9/13 people whom I don't feel have taken much of a stance on stuff (including four people who have only jokevoted or posted nothing).  Obviously serious business has only just started so no big for most of these, but I will watch and see who doesn't lay down some opinions to go on.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 24, 2010, 09:15:56 PM
I suddenly feel far less guilty about my walls of text. This being said that's... well, definitely one person's opinion of the situation but not horrendously inaccurate even so (Noyn I'm not looking at today, votelessness for two days(?!) feels like a scum ability off the cuff to me and while that will not excuse absence/further lack of content, they -have- provided info on the (probable) existence of that role.)


Also Zenthor -not- cussing some one or some group of people out during a day would probably be enough to give me heart palpitations.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 24, 2010, 09:34:38 PM
A moment.

Xanth's post, here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108510.html#msg108510). First, I'll contend that MC's misrepresented this post (in summary, not in hugeblock) as voting for Laggy for something Snowfire already pointed out - that is actually not what Xanth is doing, at all, unless I miss something. Snowfire pointed out Laggy said he'd be lazy.

Granted, what Xanth is doing is not much better - he is pushing for the vote on someone who is actively talking and trying, even if in part, to justify his moves and actions (Laggy) over someone who just switched without much other than LAL behind it (QR). and using that as his reasoning, to put it simply (read the post, I confess to simplifying but that is what, to me, the post boils down to. Xanth attacks Laggy for using meta, pointing out where meta is flawed. Sure, but meta can always be flawed. Doesn't mean it's always -wrong-.)

I'm... not sure what to make of this yet, give me some time, but Xanth moving to attack the person with a far larger paper trail and who is putting in (even at that time) more attempts to push the conversation over the quieter of the two switches being discussed seems off. (The problem's popped up but my head and stomach haven't decided what to think of it, if that makes sense.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: QuietRain on May 24, 2010, 10:19:34 PM
Well, with Excal's comments about why Alice hasn't been posting, I can certainly remove my LAL vote on them.  Although if Alice is replaced I'd like to see said replacement get some good comments in so we can get a read as we've lost a bit of time on it already.  I support LAL, but there's a difference between Lurking and Won't Be Playing.

##UNVOTE: Alice

Comments on other things that have come up:

Noyn's voteless situation: It's strange, but I don't think it's indicative of either scum or town.  I'll let his comments and votes speak for themselves.  And even if you don't VOTE, you could always do something to indicate a vote without actually being one, such as Xanth's suggestion of FoS, or else "SUSPECT: PersonX" or something.  Mods would prolly appreciate that more than a Vote they have to remember to discount.

Xanth's targeting of Laggy over his use of meta.  I'm not in the Meta-Is-Always-Bad camp.  It's like any tool in mafia, something to use to weigh the posts in the current game.  I certainly think it has, by it's very definition, some gaping holes in it's use so I wouldn't use it as an end-all-be-all.  A person can, and sometimes does, fully change his/her playing style to cover their tracks when switching sides of the fence (or when they notice that they act a certain why when either a townie or a scum).  But using meta as one tool among others is just as justified as using your common sense and your ability to judge the likkihood of something occuring.  I hardly see it as vote worthy, but I do understand the MIAB camp's viewpoint, so I won't say it makes Xanth or Laggy look scummy to me.  Seems the usual playstyle argument issue.

So far I'm getting a bunch of null reads (it's Day 1, what else is new), so I don't have anyone that really registers more scummy to me than anyone else.  Lacking a scum read, I tend to go with the tool of last resort, LAL.  Ciato's just had the intro joke vote, I'd like to see more out of her.
##VOTE: Ciato
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Carthrat on May 24, 2010, 10:44:25 PM
Good morning~

Vote on metroid was as serious as it gets, is only getting more serious with his quickly-deployed wall of text and ratings on many different players. It is extreme-reporting-filler-style, and there's already enough Aya in this game that we don't needs no more.

Also LaL does not work that day you don't do it first thing day one that never works, lrn2LaL properly. It is actually fairly worrisome to see it propogated as a legitimate early tactic when it is not really. People must be given time beyond the early voting stage to lurk before they can be deemed as lurkers. Additionally there is is rarely a shortage of 'contentless' people early in the day on whom pressure can be put, but at this stage I see no reason to vote in that direction.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 24, 2010, 10:55:28 PM
I'll contend that MC's misrepresented this post

Yeah, doesn't surprise me that I misrepresented one or two posts.  My primary goal in writing that post was "if we're going to pressure Carthrat for only having a joke vote, I want to know who else only has a joke vote/mimimal content."

votelessness for two days(?!) feels like a scum ability off the cuff to me and while that will not excuse absence/further lack of content, they -have- provided info on the (probable) existence of that role.

Voteblocker I'm not sure is a scum ability.  This is pure setup speculation now, but...

Excal said the game would be 11 or 13 players; with numbers like that, 3 scum seems likely.  The argument for scum voteblock would be that going from 11 to 13 players, voteblock blocks two people, so that makes it kinda like 11.

The argument against that is...13 players minus two town votes stacks the statistics much more against Town (same number of days until LYLO, but Town is much less likely to hit scum on a guess).

A third angle--the voteblocker targeted the newbie, as opposed to targeting a veteran night 0.  Probably what Town voteblocker would do.  Scum voteblocker...might target the newbie too (look like town, still get early LYLO!)

So...yeah, wouldn't automatically conclude voteblocker = scum.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 24, 2010, 11:08:37 PM
Jeez, so much LURKERS MURDER DEATH KILL going on. What the hell, the game is 24 hours old, there's far too high a chance for outside mitigating factors to make LAL worth endorsing (just look at Alice). What's going on here? We already have a Hitler of lurkers, so now we're going to have a Burgdorf of lurkers, a Koller of lurkers, a Schenck of lurkers...

Uh no. Can't get behind this movement at all, it's an easy way of getting out of having to hold an opinion. Not terribly happy with Laggy or QR. Not really understanding MC's Tai vote; nearest I can read is that Tai is scummy for thinking MC's first vote was a joke? Uh. ED1, self-admitted grasping at straws, I know, but you couldn't find anything better to point at in your summary? (Never mind my natural irritation with D1 game summaries.) Can you explain your Tai vote further for me? If it is for the reasons I have stated, I'd like to know why that action is scummy.

Still not happy with what I've seen, still good enough for a D1 vote. Summaries and role speculation, especially this early, are opinion covers as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 24, 2010, 11:11:20 PM
I don't think any of the LAL votes running around are to be read as "zomg person is lurking hardcore is obviously scummy" but rather pressure votes designed to get people to start participating in the gosh darn game already. They'll become more traditionally in-line LAL votes if said content isn't eventually produced, which was exactly the gist of what I was saying about my vote becoming serious if Alice didn't post in a reasonable timeframe.

That said it's still a pretty good point that it's being showcased that much and shouldn't be a shield to hide under all the time, and a response in line that I'd expect from Rat. For the mc push, I've honestly been chalking that up to mc being mc and first real Mafia game and all, which may be a poor objective defense but one I can buy for the time being.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 24, 2010, 11:19:45 PM
I'll admit the MC push isn't terribly strong (lol Day 1), but I still think the case against her is better than trying to bust people's chops for simply not being here, however much effort is being put into such pushes. If she clarifies her Tai vote for me and provides a good reason as to why she's still holding onto it (or makes a better case) then I'll move off. (Assuming, of course, that her explanations are satisfactory.)

Also, Laggy, why is your vote still on Rat?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 24, 2010, 11:26:35 PM
Because I am forgetful and need some time when I'm not occupied by other distractions to evaluate other cases. There are plenty of other people (Ciato, Yoshi) who could be posting as well.

I'm not disagreeing with your case, for the record, as stated by my own preference for short and simple. Rather, mc's reporter/evaluation/large summary post is very much in line of how she writes period and that's why I don't really feel inclined to go after her throat for it.

##Unvote: Rat
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 25, 2010, 12:12:45 AM
(You want more cussing, I'll give you more cussing.)

Eh, MC's reporting thing's kind of a null tell if you ask me.  Sure, it's a good way for scum to look like they're contributing without actually doing so.  On the other hand, it's an easy way for longwinded asshats to get their thoughts in order.  Don't know enough about MC's Mafia playstyle to know much beyond that, but I do know enough about her normal posts to toss her in the "longwinded asshat" category.

Re: MC.  Of course I didn't move my jokevote off.  I'm far more cautious about that than other people seem to be about it.  I was wary of people training on Rat before he even posted.  What bloody reason would I have to hop on another lurker train?  Admittedly, I didn't see Excal's note about Alice maybe needing a replacement, but in hindsight I'm glad I didn't move my vote.

Also agreeing with Kilga that the Tai vote is kind of odd.  Yeah, he didn't press your jokevote harder which is a little off as I said before, but Jesus.  Joke vote phase.  We mislynched a guy last game for not getting a grasp on that.  Beyond that Tai's actually been trying to look for tells other than LaL, so, y'know.  lolwhat.

That said... meh.  Still nothing that I'm really picking up on.  And hey look there's my boss walking this way gotta duck out now.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 25, 2010, 12:27:27 AM
Laggy why are you not being lazy.  If you were lazy like promised then I could be lazy too and leave my vote on you.

##UNVOTE:Laggy

It IS a bit early but I am also philosophically on the MURDER DEATH KILL LURKERS side of the "what to do Day 1" fence, at least when no one is saying much, and Laggy is at least participating.

Also agree that MC is being MC.  I thought that long post was rather interesting and had some content, so somewhat worried people are holding this against her.  (Kilga's question about the vote is fair though, I don't entirely follow it myself either.)  Don't think I agree with MC's role balance speculation though, I don't think we have enough information at the moment.  Hence my "file this away for later" comment on the unexpected length; when we start hearing roleclaims and/or seeing flips in later days, Noyn's predicament may make more sense.

So.  I don't really agree with Carthrat's last post.  The part about requiring some time to pass to qualify as a lurker is self-evidently true, of course, but meh, and the "reporter" accusation is the weakest one against MC.  And that's about it as far as content.  Could be an active lurk if I squint.

Screw it, it's early.  Let's see how many Unvotes / Re-votes of Carthrat I can rack up in one day.

##VOTE: Carthrat Mk. III, The Revenge
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 25, 2010, 12:42:32 AM
Short version--Kilga's correct in that there's now a lot more content to respond to than Tai not calling me out, not to mention Tai has been strong on content since then.  I should probably move my vote off.  And onto...

NINJA'D
Okay, so Zenny's not un-jokevoting is more playstyle then; I suppose I accept that explanation.  Umm...

Anti-LAL trains...I have pretty serious issue with these, in that they're basically just playstyle arguments.  Same with anti-"L-3" vs "you overreacted to L-3".  Same with "metagame" vs "anti-metagame".  Both sides of such arguments tend to be pretty null-tell to me--they don't really take much of a stance on this specific game.  (But honestly, they happen; I'd just like people to point out better stuff).

Xanth train: There might be something there.  I'll confess to newbie-issues here (reading Xanth's post produced "huh, I'm not sure I understand"; scumminess in intellectual obscurity?  Will Return To When I Have Time: Xanth).


(IRL note: need to do laundry; I need to reread Xanth (NINJA'd and Carthrat) when I get back).

I suppose it couldn't hurt to...Xanth--can you explain your case on Laggy in terms even a newbie would understand?

UNVOTE: Taitoro
VOTE: Xanth
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 25, 2010, 01:20:38 AM
For the few people that are not in the forum's chat room/not paying attention.

I will be posting semi sporadically, especially while at home. This is due to goddamn bees, my focus while in the house is kinda shot. This being said I will be paying attention to topic and if anyone addresses stuff to me I'll answer. This should be dealt with one way or another by tomorrow afternoon I hope at the latest, there will be no longterm issues, yadda yadda.

Re: everything since I last posted... skim skim skim read skim read skim okay skim read okay skim read okay wanna hear more from... Noyn/Ciato/Yoshiken/Xanth. Somewhat querulous on people attacking MC for "reporter", I think I barked at people last game about this one but a breakdown of what's happened isn't always reported, she provided her opinions in part, and it was at least useful in making me look at the Xanth content again and go "wait what?" so.

Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 25, 2010, 01:27:19 AM
H'okay, off work now.  Still not much else to say on anyone else, but I think I can do some Xanth-to-English translation for MC.  Correct me if I'm off, of course, Xanth.

In Cthulhu Mafia, Alice lurked and consistently avoided modkill by a nose.  Throughout this I'd seen him in chat with some frequency so with this sort of meta it lead a lot of us to think that he was scum (Xanth included since he was on the town side).  Turns out he was not only town, but a self reviver, so us mislynching him was not only a good thing for town but was the only reason town had an opportunity to still win at that point.  So, based off of that example, to Xanth Laggy putting pressure on Alice for lurking and being in IRC is somehow more bad than Laggy putting pressure on Alice for just lurking?  I guess?  

I can see the logic behind it but I'm not sure I agree.  In fact after thinking it over a bit I'd like some clarification, too.

Oh, yeah, MC, remember to do the two #s before voting/unvoting.  Helps the mod count votes more easily.

Tai ninja, nothing to add but an obligatory KoL reference. (http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Guy_made_of_bees) 
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 25, 2010, 01:45:51 AM
Alright, I'm here. Stupid sleep patterns, college assignments and my sister breaking up with her girlfriend mean I don't have too much time right now, but I'll definitely post all my thoughts when I get the chance. Better I post rarely with content than a lot with none, right?

LaL is bad enough Day One, but the way it's being used here is terrible. Just saying "Once they post content, I'll move my vote" is awful - it takes actual content to move a vote, and that's why LaL is mostly useless Day One, where almost any content can be classed as good content.

I don't like the summary of what's happened from MC, especially because it comes with no opinions whatsoever. Last post is much better for that, at least, so it's a null read, I guess.

Then there's the discussion over whether or not the voteblocker is scum - not agreeing with Tai on ignoring the voteblocked for today, because it is a WIFOM point at best. It could be a Scum role, yes. It could also be 3rd-party. It could also be a Town role. There are ways to support any of those stances. Ignoring someone over it is pretty bad (as is assuming anything from it - it's a null tell at best)

Finally, don't agree that playstyle discussions are always bad - some people can contradict themselves majorly when trying to meet certain playstyles, and it is useful to know what playstyle people will go with, so it is clear if they change later on in the game.

With all that said:
##Unvote, ##Vote: Laggy
Easily the worst of the LaLers today. Pressure voting is good early in the day, but now we need some actual content, and so... he removes his vote.

Ninja'd: Tai: She presented her opinions in that post? I'm not seeing it, outside of one or two players. It also ends with "I'll wait and see what else happens" which kinda defeats the purpose of a summary post.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Laggy on May 25, 2010, 02:00:11 AM
LAL is bad, I don't like mc's summary but it's a null read, I don't agree with Tai because the voteblocking thing is a null read, hay Laggy you're terrible because you're pushing this but took off your vote after the guy he went after posted something resembling a response.

If this entire discussion hadn't started in the first place we would, in all likelihood, be stuck in jokevote phase land. You're going off and complaining about needing "actual content" but at the same time saying it's impossible to get on Day 1 and that makes prodding people for content.... bad? That's kind of silly. And no offense, but "now we need some actual content" and then voting me when I feel I have been decently vocal about what I think boggles me.

##Vote: Yoshi
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 25, 2010, 02:13:12 AM
In giving a breakdown and summary one inevitably introduces one's own interpretations and opinions into the mix. Complete objectivity of subjective content is not impossible but it'd be meaningless for our purposes, and mc introduced her own opinions on who she thought had or had not produced sufficient content and the quality therein of that content. Is most of the post fluffy? Sure, but there is still that evaluation of quality and content, and dismissing that seems flawed.

Re: voteblocker: I won't get into it right now, and I'm hardly laying off Noyn entirely if I'm asking for content from them, am I? But it still reads far more likely to me as scumvoteblock over anything else. Doesn't have to be, no. But likeliest scenario of what I see thus far, yeah, that's my gutcheck.

aaand yeah kinda seconding Laggy here, going after him for the absence of a vote seems semi-pointless as a dig. I do agree with the basic issue of LaL Yoshiken presents but think his vote target's very mistaken here, interested to see a further defense of the case.

Meanwhile...

##UNVOTE: Zenthor/Makkotah
##VOTE: Xanth

Yeah, less and less satisfied with that reasoning on Xanth's side, it seems like a far more fabricated case the more I tug it apart mentally. Now back to my worry about goddamn bees
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 25, 2010, 02:26:38 AM
Re: voteblocker: I won't get into it right now, and I'm hardly laying off Noyn entirely if I'm asking for content from them, am I? But it still reads far more likely to me as scumvoteblock over anything else. Doesn't have to be, no. But likeliest scenario of what I see thus far, yeah, that's my gutcheck.

Briefly (as I have more laundry):

Even if voteblocker IS a scum, that doesn't mean Noyn isn't.  In fact, voteblocking their own person to disguise opinions is actually quite possibly more beneficial to them than targeting town day 1 (especially in the case of a user who we don't know is familiar with FoS).  Yes, eventually they want to hit town to push LyLo earlier but earliest possible LyLo is presumably day 3, so missing day 1 and day 2 wouldn't really hurt scum.

(Though I do agree that there's not much point pursuing Noyn until we get some content).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 25, 2010, 02:42:53 AM
Laggy: LAL is bad on Day One, yes. Summary is a null read because other posts give opinions, which is the only problem in the summary. Discussion starting is good, yes, and I can't see where I even implied that prodding people for content is bad - that's not what you've done, though, you're just prodding for anything.
Posting =/= content, and in your response to Rat, you say that LAL shouldn't be a shield to hide under, yet, until your last post, you'd done nothing but LAL, and even the vote against me seems to be because I'm ignoring LAL to vote on content instead.

Tai: I didn't dismiss the post entirely, but there are very, VERY few opinions in there. As for the voteblock, that is pure role meta with no evidence. We've as much reason to assume it's a scum role as we do to assume it's a town role.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 25, 2010, 03:11:55 AM
I agree it's role meta entirely, currently disagree that we should consider it equally likely to be a town role as to be a scum role but I'm not concerned about pushing the point as trying to hunt down the voteblocker is totally unproductive anyway and the only reason the alignment comes up is in reflection on Noyn right now.

Also I -really- dislike people going "scum could use powers on scum!" yes, it's possible. yes, it could be done for the sake of a gambit. But frankly if they have -nothing better to do with voteblocking power than to deny one of their own members a vote for the sake of gambiting- then I really have to question the efficacy of their planning. In general scum will attempt to frustrate and annoy town with what resources they have. (Hi, Soppy!) Discombobulated thinking is an aid to them. Still meta? Yeah, sure. But I can't honestly think just yet that it's a town role or that it's scum targeting scum. Neither one seems more likely than an actively debilitating role being used to try and squelch discussion.

That's pretty much the final of it, I think this conversation's mostly distraction at this point and apologize for encouraging it on my end - we can debate use of this meta all day and night but in the end what's going on in the game should take priority. I'd delete the above to reflect this but feel the response should be at least noted.

Probably going to sleep soon, need something resembling coherent sleep. beeeees.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on May 25, 2010, 03:37:23 AM
To me, a voteblocker who voteblocks a new person is.... pretty scummy/TPish, although I would not let that stop me from pursuing a case on the new guy. As is, I think there are better candidates for lynching currently.

The entire Laggy/Tai/Yoshi slapfight is giving me headaches currently. I think that people overreact about LAL because well the game hasn't really gotten going yet. I basically agree with Yoshi that is an easy way to just be lazy.

However:

Snowfire is the person who currently concerns me most. I feel like he attacks Laggy for really frivolous reasons and hasn't done much else at all. I don't terribly like his argument and before that he goes Vote Rat, don't vote rat, oh it's okay to vote Rat~ I don't have a lot else to really say about that since, well, there's not much else about it.

QR feels like she is just flipping from 'lurker' to 'lurker' (I love the term lurker because it implies I was actually reading the topic >_>) but she admits that it is a placeholder vote. Not great but not overly scummy.

MC has given the most pro-town vibes so far. Laggy, Tai, and Yoshi all read fairly neutrally for all that I agree with whoever said that talking about the voteblocker is fine. Meta is an acceptable part of the game; just don't let it dictate all of your play.

Anyway, I am currently hanging out with the lovely mod so I shall stop being anti-social~

##VOTE: Snowfire
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 25, 2010, 04:36:45 AM
A brief reply to Ciato, need to noodle over the other cases some more.

If you think my Laggy-vote was frivolous I'll just remind you that I only had frivolous material and jokevotes to work with at the time that vote was placed, as only Kilga + QR had laid serious votes then.  I think that a stated intention to lurk is at least somewhat suspicious, but Laggy has proceeded not to lurk, so you'll note I've withdrawn my vote from him.  As for Rat that was just a jokevote I temporarily withdrew due to Makkotah's "OMG L-3" comment.  The last Rat vote is for real though.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 25, 2010, 04:37:29 AM
Also I -really- dislike people going "scum could use powers on scum!" yes, it's possible. yes, it could be done for the sake of a gambit.

Oh, in the abstract I share your dislike.  You miss my point, however, that "can't vote" is not necessarily a negative--in fact "can't vote" early in the game could actually be kinda positive for scum.


In tangential news...I'm finding myself not comfortable with most of

Yoshi's posts.

Paragraph 1 is IRL stuff.

Paragraph 2 about playstyles!  "Rawr, LAL is bad."  Not much there.

Paragraph 3...

I don't like the summary of what's happened from MC, especially because it comes with no opinions whatsoever. Last post is much better for that, at least, so it's a null read, I guess.

Really?  Because that's the exact opposite from what I remember ("whoops, should have switched my vote" post was pretty empty of new ideas, summary post was not).

Paragraph 4 is voteblocker role speculation.  Nothing wrong with that, but I still don't have anything.

Paragraph 5 calls for more playstyle discussions so that we can catch people when they're inconsistent!  Okay, here's an actual opinion...kinda.  And...I don't agree.  Knowing that someone's day 1 playstyle is LAL doesn't tell us much about their day 5 playstyle.

Paragraph 6

Quote
With all that said:
##Unvote, ##Vote: Laggy
Easily the worst of the LaLers today. Pressure voting is good early in the day, but now we need some actual content, and so... he removes his vote.

Wait, "pressure voting is good early in the day", doesn't that contradict your own paragraph 2?

Laggy's also had some content at the time you posted--supported Tai in his voting for Zenny over Zenny's L-3 reaction, first person to mention "hey, Rat only has a jokevote too", points us to the mod post on Alice (which I had totally missed), and diffused things with "this is how mc always writes."  Nothing amazing, but not completely lacking in content.

Quote
It also ends with "I'll wait and see what else happens" which kinda defeats the purpose of a summary post.

Serious lack of observation here.

Trying to par down people who don't have content...  - metroid composite

My primary goal in writing that post was "if we're going to pressure Carthrat for only having a joke vote, I want to know who else only has a joke vote/mimimal content." - metroid composite

I don't know what the "purpose of a summary post" is supposed to be, but the goals of that post were pretty clearly stated.


NEXT POST!

Couple sentences re-iterating stuff and then...

Discussion starting is good, yes, and I can't see where I even implied that prodding people for content is bad - that's not what you've done, though, you're just prodding for anything.

Mmm...evidence?  I'll admit I'm not 100% happy with Laggy, and if you can back this up I'll be interested.

Quote
yet, until your last post, you'd done nothing but LAL

Laggy had done nothing but LAL with his votes, yes; he expressed opinions on a wider variety of issues, however.

Quote
and even the vote against me seems to be because I'm ignoring LAL to vote on content instead.

No offence, but...your post read very weakly to me.  I was seriously considering switching my vote to you, but kneejerked that the flaws of your post were due to scrambling to catch up with the topic.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 25, 2010, 05:31:29 AM
Wow, Xanth's vote sure is getting spun a lot. The way I read it, Xanth's vote for Laggy is because Laggy voted for Alice and cited riding lurking to scum victory in the past (Meme), where Alice has also ridden lurking to town victory in the past (Cthulhu). Laggy's Alice meta (and vote reasoning), therefore, was incorrect, as super lurkiness is a proven null Alice tell.

Dislike Zenny the most out of all this for bringing IRC activity into the equation when neither Laggy nor Xanth ever mentioned it once. This reads more like sensationalism than anything else. Actually you know I think this is worth a vote. MC's done decently for herself since my last post (I feel the Xanth vote is maybe misguided but at least decent), and that's an absolutely terrible sensationalist spin to put on Xanth's reasoning.

##Unvote: metroid composite
##Vote: Zenthor/Makkotah


Not much liking either side of the Yoshi/Laggy spat too much, but Laggy looks worse for seemingly dropping most of the prior events of the day for an OMGUS, only briefly commenting on Tai's role speculation and MC Bigass Post Of Summaration and even those aren't anything special. Makes me want to give Yoshi a small pass (for the time being).

Generically unhappy with QR for reasons previously stated. Not really feeling anything strong either way on anyone else.

Splitting post here; upcoming post will discuss my thoughts on Voteless Syndrome. I didn't really want to talk about it, but everyone else seems to want to, so.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 25, 2010, 05:40:58 AM
Wait.  Laggy never said anything about the whole IRC thing?
/me goes and does a quick re-read of Laggy's posts about Alice.

... Well, clearly I'm focusing on seeing him in IRC and not bothering to check the topic for my own good.  Well, no, I'm not, because it's a valid complaint when you see someone active in chat who hasn't even bothered checking the fucking topic all game yet.  Wrong to put those words in Xanth's mouth (could have sworn he had said something about that, but no excuse for it there, but certainly not wrong about my complaint about Alice there.  If you've got time to be dicking around in IRC you've got time to be paying even the least bit of attention to Mafia.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 25, 2010, 05:53:15 AM
So, Noyn being voteless. I've gone down a few avenues of thought on this one, and have come up with the following.

- I do not believe Noyn's votelessness to be an active townie decision.

Reasoning for this one is simple; what townie, with literally zero information to work with, is going to take a blind anti-town action? I could see a Town Votestealer using their power a few days into the game on someone they think is scum, but just tossing it on a random person at the start of the game with absolutely nothing to go on? No. This would be a terribly anti-town move, even if you don't trust $NEWBIE to have their head on straight.

- I do not believe Noyn's votelessness to be an active scum decision.

Whoa, wait a minute! The effect had to come from somewhere, right? Yeah, I know, but bear with me.

* With no information to work with, why would scum steal the vote of a newbie? Why not Xanth or Tai or Ciato (or even me :toot:), someone they can expect will be a great danger to them? Noyn is up there as one of the worst possible blind votesteal choices in this game, because who the hell knows how he's going to play.
* Why would scum have actively stolen ANYONE'S vote last night? Why would they tip their hand now? It makes far more tactical sense to save it for later in the game, like using it to surprise town in LYLO.

So where did it come from? I see three possibilities, listed in the order I think most likely.

- It was a third party action. Who the hell knows what the third party's win condition is, and who the hell knows what else they can do, so they may not care about tipping their hand now like scum would.
- It was an unintended action performed by someone of any alignment. Basically, whoever did it didn't know they could do it. (This includes the possibility that Noyn has a role of which this is a previous unknown side effect. (And before anyone gets on my case about this statement, no, I am not trying to speculate whether or not Noyn has a role.))
- It was a predetermined game event performed by Excal. Not impossible, but impossible to really account for, and has no bearing on anyone's alignment, so not really worth thinking about.

Zenny ninja, will address it in a moment.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 25, 2010, 05:58:43 AM
Forgot one possibility: Scum Votestealer-Attached-To-Something-Else. Still don't really believe this one, whatever that something else could be (Rolecop/Roleblocker/???) would still most likely be better served targeting Xanth/Tai/Ciato/etc.

---

Zenny: What you say about IRC activity combined with thread inactivity is true, but that doesn't really so anything to address the issue I have with you.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 25, 2010, 05:59:02 AM
*doesn't really do anything

MULTI-
POST
DRIFTING
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 25, 2010, 06:05:39 AM
Eh.  I conflated what Xanth sad about Laggy's metagaming and my own metagaming on Alice.  Xanth was referring to the Cthulhu mafia game where Alice pulled that bullshit all the time.  I have nothing else to say in my defense on that matter.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 25, 2010, 06:06:48 AM
By "That bullshit", if it isn't clear, I mean the whole being in IRC and not posting in Mafia.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Alice on May 25, 2010, 06:39:49 AM
Wahaha, I have perfected my MASTER PLAN(TM) to lurk through D1 (actually not, but it's a long story). Anyway, taking a look at the past couple posts, a couple things stand out. First thing that does is Laggy's comment about Scum having guts to try to cram the Rat train through: the Rat train built excessively rapidly, and, unless Excal's even more of a bastard mod than Snow is, not everyone on that wagon is going to be Scum - not to mention that quickhammers have occured here in the past - so I fail to see why it would necessitate Scum to have "guts" to try to cram such a thing through: there almost certainly are Scum on the wagon, but the train in general took surprisingly little pushing to get to the extent that it got.

I'm not actually sure what to make of that: early day 1 rapid trains are a nice way to not get someone lynched D1 as they tend to provoke that exact sort of fear of a quicklynch - yet at the same time, I'm probably reading far too much into this.

Somewhat perplexed at Zenny, as I haven't been dicking around on IRC today. But whatever, lurking is bad - and I'm not acutally sure why he's being slammed over this, that similarly makes no sense: Kilga, why are you voting Zenthor over this?

Anyway! Noyn is probably the main person to discuss today: I pretty much agree with Kilga here, I'm not sure it gives a nice swing alignment-wise. Also, because the opening post stated that such events "usually" only lasted one day does not mean that they universally will - and I'm also extremely perplexed at Laggy's behaviour: first he votes me over lurking, while complaining about the Rat train, then he backpedals stating that "oh hey maybe voting Rat to L-2 might be a good idea after all for we get useful information this way!"...um, why, how? It's Day freaking One.

The sheer amount of times that Rat's been voted, then unvoted, then revoted by others is somewhat perplexing. I am extremely weirded out by anyone voting Xanth over his Laggy case, as it's one that, um, makes a lot of sense to me? In fact I'd be voting for Laggy, but personally I feel that metroid_composite is even worse: a whole lot of reporting-style posts with a lot of words and next to no content.

##Vote: metroid_composite
Title: Ghost Envy Quirk
Post by: Xanth on May 25, 2010, 06:57:51 AM
Okay, haven't really read the thread properly (this is me getting up and heading to work), but will see if I can make the time at lunch. Only making a quick post now because I seem to have taken some flak for some reasons I haven't even read regarding my vote on Laggy. I think(?) that this has mostly been covered since, but this vote was overall due to jumping into LaL altogether too soon, combined with trying to make it stick too hard, in particular with selective metagame reasoning. Metagaming not always bad, but cherry picking metagaming is. I like how his response is to disregard the evidence that contradicts his evidence and falls back on 'well that doesn't matter, lurking is bad'. Oh okay.

Yeah, I know, tons has happened since. I'll catch up in either like six hours or twelve depending.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 25, 2010, 08:00:50 AM
I will publically state that there are no scripted events.  All events that happen are due to player actions.  As well, there is no Vanilla Town, and every role has hidden information.

Now, here is a vote count.

Day 1 Votes

Alice (0): Cyril, Quietrain, [i[Metroid[/i]
Carthrat (1): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire
Cyril (2): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (2): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (2): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (2): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (1): Taishyr, Kilga
Yoshiken (1): Cyril
Snowfire (1): Ciato
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal
Excal (0): Snowfire

No Vote: Noyn

With 13 Alive it takes 7 votes to lynch.

There are 39 hours remaining in Day 1.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Carthrat on May 25, 2010, 08:54:48 AM
I see no reason to discuss Noyn shenanigans, unless someone has some truly mind-blowing insight into his scumminess (or lack thereof).

I am quite amused by Laggy choosing to target Alice for lurker-meta early (which makes no sense as Kilga described earlier) and then saying 'oh MC is always like that' and letting her slide over contentless reporting. This is pretty much the epitome of why meta fail. Laggy also kneejerk OMGUS's Yoshi after getting somewhat rightfully called out on unecessary LaL hype. I find this troubling, as Laggy had recently dropped his vote on me in apparent preparation for going over things again, yet seems to just pounce on one of the responses directly after his post.

I considered voting him but I am not really inclined to let MC off the hook presently since her vote for Xanth is quite weaksauce, little more than a clarification prod really, and I dislike her quantity of words-to-relevant-actions; Yoshiken in particular did not look like he was really flailing to me, so I do not understand how she could put so much effort into talking about how uncomfortable he makes her, yet leave him be in the end in favour of her existing case.

I do not agree at all that reporting is a weak charge against her, her posts have pretty much been nothing but that. It seems nice and helpful to post lists and summations and things, but it's pretty much just a 'here's what's happened so far list' that does not venture any strong opinions. The other parts of her post have been role speculation on Noyn, or conversation regarding to it, which is not especially helpful.

Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Alice on May 25, 2010, 10:51:55 AM
We already have a Hitler of lurkers, so now we're going to have a Burgdorf of lurkers, a Koller of lurkers, a Schenck of lurkers...
*snicker*

Anyway, on second thought, while m_c's lack of content is still horribly disturbing, and I can't say I'm at all pleased with Laggy, this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108556.html#msg108556) of SnowFire's worries me incredibly. In it, we have:
Quote from: SnowFire
So.  I don't really agree with Carthrat's last post.  The part about requiring some time to pass to qualify as a lurker is self-evidently true, of course, but meh, and the "reporter" accusation is the weakest one against MC.  And that's about it as far as content.  Could be an active lurk if I squint.
- "It's self-evident, but meh"? How does that somehow invalidate his point that LAL right now is bad?
- The m_c reporting charge is weak? How so? A good amount of her posts feature a bunch of statements about what occured in the game and when, with zero opinion and analysis of them. This type of posting is worthless at doing anything beyond giving the illusion that one is contributing to discussion, i.e. it is classic tell-tale Active Lurking.
- And then he misapplies the principle behind Active Lurking on Carthrat to vote him, accompanied by a statement to the effect of "LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROY JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKINS #VOET RAT" for no appreciably good reason. Why sure that post is going to be useless if you disregard everything in it as being useless for no good reason, really, but...your reasons for disregarding it are, quite frankly, awful.

##Unvote
##Vote: SnowFire
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 25, 2010, 11:38:29 AM
Xanth: My main balk at your actions comes from pushing Laggy over QR at that point; near-contentless "me too" lurkvote switch doesn't take priority over someone actively attempting to justify their actions? And Laggy's main point had -always- been to aim for lurkers so to attack the meta and then cheer when that falls over seems spurious. Thus my push for you: I feel you not only avoided a more obvious target (given your lines of reasoning) but that you misrepresented his case.

If you think there's a case in his stuff still, try to prove it and I'll listen through, but the attack on his meta as a "weak point" when that wasn't the main thrust of his argument (lurkering in general was) really does not ring well with me. Vote stands for now.


Kilga voting Zenthor: I appreciate going after a factual error but on the other hand you're freely going after someone for still calling out a lurker. Granted Alice in chat is a null tell, Alice is supertoro. But following this as your vote seems mistaken. And... labeling it sensationalism seems off, too: if someone's around in one area it's not terrible to expect them to at least show up in another. Still, again, Alice. Null tell (to me, at least.) So yeah this kinda all seems a mess, wanna hear Kilga's response.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 25, 2010, 02:04:01 PM
Addressing this MC post. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108587.html#msg108587)

Ignoring your talk of para 1/2 of mine, nothing there. Para 3: this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108560.html#msg108560) doesn't contain much, but it's better than the previous ones - some talk of your opinion on metagaming, a push against Xanth. This was the post I meant was better, in comparison to the two before it: this one (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108546.html#msg108546) and the summary (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108528.html#msg108528), which contain absolutely nothing in opinion outside of saying we have nothing on Zenny/Noyn and saying Kilga takes a reasonable stance - I said it had 1-2 opinions, close enough.

Knowing someone is LAL D1 and D5 are totally different, sure. That doesn't work both ways, though. If someone is happy to LAL at the start of D1, are they going to be reluctant to on D5, assuming nothing else? I should damn well hope not.

Pressure voting being good does not contradict what I said. Pressure voting should demand content, not just any old post, and the vote should not move if the content produced is bad.
Personally, I don't give Laggy credit for things like pointing out the mod note. And sure, he's chimed in on some other arguments, but they usually amount to one sentence before going straight back to LAL (example~ (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108522.html#msg108522)). Your next point asks for evidence, and I'll point to the core of my argument: he votes Rat here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108527.html#msg108527), Rat posts this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108544.html#msg108544) which is essentially "MC is reporting, LAL is bad" which was fairly obvious, IMO, and then this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108548.html#msg108548) basically gives Rat a pass for his post, removing the vote two posts later (with the post in between containing a prod to remove it.) There is practically no comment on Rat's post other than "It is a typical Rat response" which says nothing about whether it is townie or scummy, and it just reads as an easy way to look like scumhunting while doing nothing. Also, no vote after that just makes it seem as though he has nothing outside of LAL, when there was easily enough to vote on by that point.
-----
In other news, I don't like Snowfire saying he needs to look over other cases here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108586.html#msg108586) and then posting nothing else. Also seconding Alice on the "self-evidently true, of course, but meh" - that post is pretty horrible, and I'm.. seriously considering switching votes on that and the "more content soon!" *gone*
Agreeing with Zenny that IRC activity can and should be a point against someone, but I know I'd not seen Alice in chat, so.. hrm. Not sure what to think here, minor point against Zenny.
Still not liking QR's lack of content. We've had weak LAL votes and nothing else, looking to see some opinions from her very soon.

Alice/Kilga/Tai read best to me so far. Laggy > SnowFire > QR > Zenny/MC for worst, methinks.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 25, 2010, 02:40:34 PM
Turbo note before leaving: Off to work and might not post again until tonight, since Yoshi at least seems to be pestering me about holding back my other thoughts or something.  Yoshi, that post was just a brief reply to Ciato, not "my entire thoughts on the game."  I did intend to post again last night but got distracted and busy by other stuff, but I'll be back tonight.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 25, 2010, 03:03:17 PM
The problem I had with Zenny has nothing to do with whether or not chatting on IRC + not posting is a bad thing. The problem I had is that he was trying to spin Xanth's vote that way when I felt it was incredibly obvious that that was not at all what Xanth meant, given neither Xanth nor Laggy had ever said anything about IRC. Misrepresentation, if you will. I also cited sensationalism because he decided to throw his spin out in bold.

That being said, in having time to sit down and think about it and not make a quickie judgment at 1 AM, I've realized that it's not as good a vote base as I thought it was last night, especially if it was a genuine brain fart as Zenny said it was. So...

##Unvote: Zenthor/Makkotah
##Vote: Laggy


Which I probably should have done in the first place. Reasons cited previously, see this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108593.html#msg108593) for them as well as this Rat post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108608.html#msg108608) for an additional/alternate explanation.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 25, 2010, 04:23:39 PM
this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108560.html#msg108560) doesn't contain much, but it's better than the previous ones - some talk of your opinion on metagaming, a push against Xanth. This was the post I meant was better, in comparison to the two before it

Yes, that's exactly the post I meant too, and I stand by it having far less total content than the summary as far as I'm concerned.

If someone is happy to LAL at the start of D1, are they going to be reluctant to on D5, assuming nothing else? I should damn well hope not.

Umm...quite possibly yes?  Particularly one person on the LAL train, Quiet Rain, calls LAL the "tool of last resort" and thus probably won't push it D5.  (Not to mention, don't most people here have a decent feel for each other's playstyles by now?  "This is my playstyle" won't necessarily be new information to most people here.)

Your next point asks for evidence, and I'll point to the core of my argument: he votes Rat here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108527.html#msg108527), Rat posts this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108544.html#msg108544) which is essentially "MC is reporting, LAL is bad" which was fairly obvious, IMO, and then this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108548.html#msg108548) basically gives Rat a pass for his post, removing the vote two posts later (with the post in between containing a prod to remove it.) There is practically no comment on Rat's post other than "It is a typical Rat response" which says nothing about whether it is townie or scummy, and it just reads as an easy way to look like scumhunting while doing nothing. Also, no vote after that just makes it seem as though he has nothing outside of LAL, when there was easily enough to vote on by that point.

Hmm...decent point, Laggy, why did you consider Rat's post content?  Rat's two sentences at that point give me the impression that Rat only skimmed my posts (calling a post a wall of text doesn't require reading)...and I also don't get the impression that he was paying much attention to who he was voting for (as evidenced by getting my gender wrong--it takes one click to check someone's profile).

And that's followed by an anti-LAL paragraph that for all I know Rat could have copy/pasted from another game.  The whole thing comes off as incredibly lazy.


Hmm...
SnowFire attack analysis

Three people are training him now; he's kinda flown low under my radar.

Ciato's analysis: Hmm...I'll agree there's not much to go on with Snowfire yet.  Snowfire's behaved pretty rationally to me so far, though (removed vote from Laggy when it was clear Laggy was "not being lazy", calls out Rat for incredible lack of content after Laggy probably incorrectly removes pressure).  Though yes, Ciato's right that this isn't much to go on.

Alice's analysis is...terrible.  Wall of text analysis on a 2-sentence attack on a 2-sentence post.  Attacks SnowFire by defending all of Rat's content, saying that there's no lurkiness about it (in the process accusing me of active lurking).  Did you just accuse me of having less content than Rat?  Seriously?  The person who had (at the time) given exactly one two-sentence opinion on a single user?

Yoshi's complaint about SnowFire promising more content last night, and not having it delivered by 6am the next day?  Silly.  (Still not feeling Yoshi=scum so much as Yoshi=unobservant, though).

And...my own thoughts on SnowFire...stuff that jumped out at me was mostly jokevote phase "L-3, abandon ship!!"->"Oh, it'd only be L-4?  That's totally different, jump back on the train!"  But that's...jokevote phase; doesn't worry me much (and L-3 is worse than L-4 to be fair).


Overall, Ciato's right to push SnowFire on content, but I don't think the content that's there is bad.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 25, 2010, 05:10:28 PM
Umm...quite possibly yes?  Particularly one person on the LAL train, Quiet Rain, calls LAL the "tool of last resort" and thus probably won't push it D5.  (Not to mention, don't most people here have a decent feel for each other's playstyles by now?  "This is my playstyle" won't necessarily be new information to most people here.)
Not really. We still have some players who've not been around for too long (hi! Also, Noyn) and some people who don't play Mafia often (Laggy, QR). Playstyle discussion is still discussion, and is better than nothing at all (and seems to have produced a decent amount here)

Yoshi's complaint about SnowFire promising more content last night, and not having it delivered by 6am the next day?  Silly.  (Still not feeling Yoshi=scum so much as Yoshi=unobservant, though).
Because timezones do not exist and I did not just see it as "brief reply while I look at other cases" followed by 10 hours of silence. (Idly, checking SnowFire's profile, it looks like that came at 10.30pm and my post was at 8am there.) So yeah, maybe that wasn't much of anything, but the "It's a good point, but meh" still bugs me.

Judging by the last votecount we have... 29 hours remaining? And, uhm, I've still got absolutely nothing to go on with Noyn/QR as far as content goes. Wouldn't mind hearing from them again.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Carthrat on May 25, 2010, 05:15:18 PM
MC: Super kindly pointed out my mistake earlier, apologies, but 'he didn't check my profile' is not really something that can possibly be held against me in a scum/town context.

I did indeed only skim content at the time, mostly owing to it being in the hazy hour before I stumble out of home for work. But upon returning I saw little to convince me I was in the wrong, particularly when inspecting your following posts. Unless you back up your analysis and summaries with votes and cases I fail to see how it can really be considered useful content. I continue to struggle to see how your vote remains on Xanth despite continued professions of distaste for many other people. My issue is that citing Xanth's supposed verbosity as a scumtell seems pretty ludicrous to me, and almost anything else would seem more credible. Yet despite apparent analysis your vote remains there.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 25, 2010, 06:40:33 PM
I did indeed only skim content at the time

Okay, glad we're in agreement then.  So essentially, "Carthrat really was low content yesterday", which makes SnowFire look better, and Laggy look worse.

I continue to struggle to see how your vote remains on Xanth despite continued professions of distaste for many other people.

I'm okay with my vote on Xanth for the time being, though for different reasons.  Rereading...Xanth's sum content is a verbose playstyle argument, and a defence of said verbose playstyle argument, and a vote on Laggy based on playstyle arguments.  Basically, nothing I can work with; I don't really want to let low-content off the hook the moment I see "ooh, weak logic! Squish it!"
Title: Manticore Exile Honeymoon
Post by: Xanth on May 25, 2010, 06:44:53 PM
Right, I'm back home and should have the time for something decent enough. Before I get to that, though:

lol, metroid, just lol. That's bad and you should feel bad about it.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 25, 2010, 06:59:49 PM
Well, ran home to do the lunch posty thing.

Carthrat, re MC reporting charge: Well, see the discussion about Cranbud / Peyton Hadley 's posts in Day 1 of Cthulu Mafia.  Reporting is bad if it is hiding not having an opinion on anything.  I feel that I have an idea of where MC stands on people and there's a paper trail to hold against her if there's any whipsaw position changes.

Alice: Um. 
- "It's self-evident, but meh"? How does that somehow invalidate his point that LAL right now is bad?

What was self-evident was "lurkers only become lurkers after enough time has passed without a post."  How legitimate the "lurker pressure votes" were on early Day 1 is basically an issue of Mafia philosophy and something I definitely consider a null tell short of sudden convenient reverses (so it IS helpful to explain it, to be clear, and I don't fault Carthrat for posting why he opposes early LaL, though I don't entirely agree with his point.).  My charge against Carthrat was more "lurking even by Day 1 standards" + "one position of record at the time smells fishy to me, could be attempted scum smokescreen."  I realize that you're sold on the MC reporting charge, but I'm not.

Incidentally, Carth has posted more now.  So hmm. 

...and lunch break is done, argh.  Short version: Zenny / Tai / Xanth messes hurt my head.  Tempted to call it a null read and usual Day 1 shenanigans.  Would like to see more content from Ciato and Noyn, no surprises there, unsure how serious Ciato's vote against me was.  QuietRain too though it sounds like there's a strong RL reason for not being around much.  I'm not really buying the anti-Laggy case, but as noted I'm on the "kill all lurkers" side so his pressuring doesn't read badly to me, more like something to help get things going early Day 1.  Kilga reads moderately towny.

Carth...  I still disagree with you on most everything aside from "MC's Xanth vote is kind of weak" but then again Xanth hasn't posted much more to clear things up or not (Edit: And now mc & Xanth ninjas, good, maybe this will be resolved).  On the other hand you're not lurking anymore, but on the other other hand I don't want to fall into the trap of "any content is good content whee vote jumps to whoever's not around."  Honestly, tempted into a Yoshi or Alice vote here; I'm a sucker for OMGUS because I mean who would inveigh against the perfectly towny SnowFire but scum amirite.  On the other hand I think Alice & I might just disagree about the relative towniness of MC.

Ugh.  Day 1.  Indecisiveness.  Meh.  I'm really out of time now so guess I will keep the vote on Carth for now and hope that some of the other lurkers perk up some.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 25, 2010, 07:07:13 PM
Also turbo post before I get jumped on for it: Yes, I'm aware that Kilga is voting Laggy right now and I just said they "Kilga feels town" and "Laggy does not feel as scummy as others say."  The pro-Kilga sentiment is...  on second thought, I'd rather not say why.  Call it wild speculation that might be entirely wrong so never mind, I probably shouldn't rate Kilga quite so highly myself.

And now I'm really gone.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 25, 2010, 08:11:21 PM
Welcome one and all to the special 27 hours remain until end of day vote count!

Day 1 Votes

Alice (0): Cyril, Quietrain, [i[Metroid[/i]
Carthrat (1): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire
Cyril (3): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (2): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (2): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (1): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (0): Taishyr, Kilga
Yoshiken (1): Cyril
Snowfire (2): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal
Excal (0): Snowfire

No Vote: Noyn

As always, with 13 alive (if not actively able to vote) it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Title: Rainbow House Type
Post by: Xanth on May 25, 2010, 08:13:01 PM
Tai: sure, I disliked QR's move and made it plain enough, but the short of it is that a terribad explanation for a bad mechanical move is worse than none at all. What part of cherry picking the metagame process (again, not simply metagaming, which it seems to have devolved to (#42 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108513.html#msg108513), #51 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108528.html#msg108528), #53 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108534.html#msg108534), #54 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108538.html#msg108538), etc.), and support in general principal) doesn't cause alarm bells to go off? Or trying so much to make an early day one case stick like that? Not to mention if we zoom out a little and see the context of "lurking is terrible! Alice has scumlurked multiple times in the past!", "What about the time Alice townlurked?", "Who cares about other games? Lurking is terrible!" and see how slipshod that hastily pasted position was. And has since climbed down more than once. Okay, Laggy boarding the flusterbus wasn't why I put my vote down, but my point is that I hold that there are worse explanations than [effectively] none at all (and let's not forget that 'apply LaL' is the first level explanation in and of itself).

Metroid: as above and other posts. My vote was (is? Still catching up) not simple game theory, and I made it nice and clear who my top two suspects were.

...

Actually going through the thread now...

...

#41 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108512.html#msg108512): Metroid's vote on Tai is terrible, and worse based on the current rationale for voting me.

#48 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108525.html#msg108525) Makkotah: ohnomoregametheoryfrommebut mod kills are actually usually pro-town, on account of town having a limited number of lynches and mod kills only waste 'half' a lynch apiece, and remove players that would otherwise need lynching anyway. While it's perhaps worth noting the 4th joke vote down on the same person, it's absolutely not a position to be actually worried about.

#51 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108528.html#msg108528) (Metroid's big player action summary): very much in Rat's (#55 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108544.html#msg108544)) camp with regards to this, except more so as a convenient vehicle for misrep than it is for reporting (not to understate the reporting that is present). I count two and a half pieces of incorrect information on myself alone, and that's being generous. It's funny how these 'objective' reviews of play can gain such spin on them so easily. This is also different to day 1 Peyton in Cthulhu Mafia, as Snowfire gets around to using in defence here (#96 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108651.html#msg108651)), in that Peyton tempered the walls of text with an inclusive tl;dr summary, rather than summarising a summary of the game so far with reporting.

#55 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108544.html#msg108544): while I'm passing by this post, I'd like to point out the position on LaL here. Much like how my 'cherry picking meta' was sliced down to 'anti-meta', my position against starting a game with LaL, which Rat has supported here, has been reduced to 'anti-LaL'. Very different things! Important and dangerous differences.

#54 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108538.html#msg108538): QR generates some null reads and gets back on a steady diet of LaL. It's okay, though, because she comes back and... oh, no, that is in fact all so far. :sad face:

#65 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108567.html#msg108567) (Makkotah puts words in Xanth's mouth): No. Not even close.

...

In fact yeah, go figure this is getting big. Time to scrap this approach and start again with bullet points for people rather than posts. Probably after dinner.

In spoilers, however: Laggy and QR remain at the top, for almost completely opposite reasons despite first getting flagged for doing the same thing. Metroid has joined them, partly for words:content, reporting and misrep, and partly for the underlying theme of vote delaying (that part much the same as QR, without the lurking). As an OMGUS accusation grows ripe (although really, I'm always hard on this stuff), I'll point out that I don't have any immediate beef with Tai, who at least appears to be parking on me due to a difference in priorities, which I can at least understand, except maybe in using Metroid's position to strengthen his own.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on May 25, 2010, 08:20:37 PM
I don't terribly like Yoshi's attack on Snowfire and it makes me somewhat leery of the Snowfire train building. I find the attacking MC over the reporting to be inane -- I think a lot of players do this (Cranbud, Mage) just as a force of habit and I don't think MC's any different. I basically disagree with everything Yoshi says and I think he is consistently trying to stick charges on others.

At the risk of being accused of being too flip-floppy (haha Day 1) I think I am going to just go a different direction since I like Snowfire's latest content better and Yoshi's much worse.

Rat really isn't impressing me so far but we'll see how that pans out.

Xanth makes some really great points; I also think QR needs to appear again at some point but whatever, I can't criticize really~ Or maybe I can, since she has a vote on me for that reason~

I really need to read over what Laggy is saying again, but I'm at work and I'm supposed to be reading a paper or something so *waves*

All the LaL talk is boooring. Just lynch Alice first in every game~? Whatever. I think we have enough content now not to quibble over this stuff.

##UNVOTE: Snowfire
##VOTE: Yoshi
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 25, 2010, 08:32:38 PM
I'm okay with my vote on Xanth for the time being, though for different reasons.  Rereading...Xanth's sum content is a verbose playstyle argument, and a defence of said verbose playstyle argument, and a vote on Laggy based on playstyle arguments.  Basically, nothing I can work with; I don't really want to let low-content off the hook the moment I see "ooh, weak logic! Squish it!"

If this was your reasoning for voting Xanth, why didn't you say so when you first voted him? It's not like he had done a whole lot between your initial vote and this post, so I can't imagine what about him would have changed.

This smacks terribly of retconning ("I'm voting Xanth for this thing." "Wait, what, why? What's the deal? Why aren't you voting for these other people with which you have better issues?" "Uh, I mean, I'm voting Xanth for this other thing!") and isn't all that great an argument anyway (Xanth's vote was/is on Laggy for selective meta usage, not a playstyle argument, unless actively ignoring contradictory evidence qualifies as a playstyle now).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 25, 2010, 08:49:51 PM
Alright, it is regrettable that this has come up, but.  Quietrain has recently injured her back, and between the pain killers fogging her mind, and sitting not being a good position we have both decided that her health takes priority over this game.  So, I will be looking for replacements for Quietrain.

If I cannot find anything by the start of Day 2, then I will have to modkill her.  But I am hoping to avoid that.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 25, 2010, 08:55:18 PM
Bard?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 25, 2010, 09:24:47 PM
If this was your reasoning for voting Xanth, why didn't you say so when you first voted him?

Becuase at the time I did not feel I was understanding Xanth's post (apparently still not according to you) and thus could not get a proper evaluation on him.  At the time I made the second post, I still did not feel I could get a proper evaluation on Xanth.

That said he's posted now so...

#51 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108528.html#msg108528) (Metroid's big player action summary): very much in Rat's (#55 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108544.html#msg108544)) camp with regards to this, except more so as a convenient vehicle for misrep than it is for reporting (not to understate the reporting that is present). I count two and a half pieces of incorrect information on myself alone, and that's being generous.

Interesting.  I know of one that I agreed on earlier--which was more of a "wait, wow, I totally missed the meaning of that post.  What is Xanth actually saying?"  Based on the context I'm guessing the second one is that you don't like is using the term "anti-LAL" rather than "anti-early-LAL".  (Fair but doesn't really change my opinion, since I've really only used it in the context of "gets into playstyle arguments".  I don't particularly feel these are, to quote, "important and dangerous differences").  What's the 2.5th point?  I'm having trouble guessing just by reading your post.

Agree about Quiet Rain--QR is someone I'd be just as happy to pressure for more content as I was pressuring you, although she has an IRL excuse, and if nothing else there are low content people who do not.  (For example, Noyn still hasn't posted again, but has been online 60 minutes ago (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=897)).  NINJA'D and...all speculation on QR is now not particularly helpful.

Chasing me because I'm slow to update votes is...reasonable; I'll count that as content.


Hmm...not entirely happy about this Xanth post.  Making a big deal about "anti-early-LAL" rather than "anti-LAL" is...what?  Honestly, to me it's self-evident that "LAL vs anti-LAL" means "LAL in the current game context vs anti-LAL in the current game context."  The QR complaint is reasonable...she makes a post that doesn't take a strong stand on much, then just disappears; except she has an excuse, and there are other people like that.  This may just be a matter of "Xanth needs a reread to catch those other people."  But...for the moment, enough new content with the promise of more makes Xanth not one of my top priorities.

##Unvote: Xanth

In the mean time, I'm really not OK with Noyn passing under the radar.  Noyn discussions have been moslty missing the part where Noyn hasn't posted since May 23 when the "oh my god can't vote" kept him from talking about anyone besides himself...and yet he has logged in since then without posting.  Noyn: you've been around; you've presumably seen people calling for your opinions; why didn't you post?

##Vote: Noyn
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 25, 2010, 09:44:20 PM
Alright, I have managed to find a replacement, so let's all thank Roukanken for stepping in for Quietrain.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Roukanken on May 25, 2010, 10:56:22 PM
asdfghjkl I wasn't paying attention to this thread and now I need to replace gah

Okay, here's what I have to say about everything so far.

- Noyn shenanigans. He has no vote, this means nothing, though his willingness to move his vote on command is troubling. MotK has taught me that scum <> stupid, though, and he's apparently new so yeah. No vote <> no opinion, though, so SAY SOMETHING.

- LAL suggestions. Ahahahahaha no. It's like a day into D1, and Alice/Rat are like this all the time. You know this. (Yes, I'm willing to say that QR was being stupid with the LAL attack because D1 LAL attacks are stupid and why are we actually arguing this.)

- Makkotah, you are making it hard for me to believe you were Daniels in Cthulhu Mafia. Panicking over a Carth quicklynch in ED1? Really? Plus going along with the LAL idea?

- MC rubs me the wrong way with the case on Tai, especially with what I will now dub The Imouto Complex. Basically the threat of 'oh noes, if you suspect me people will vote against you!' sounds very defensive for no good reason. That and the list of Who Has Content is pure IIoA.

- Snowfire have you taken your Ritalin because you're like on Carth then off him then back on then onto Laggy then back to Carth for 'he's making sense BUT IT'S BAD SENSE' graaah

##Remove QR's Vote: Ciato
Vote: Makkotah


More that's coherent and looking over the game in full when I'm not about to go to bed.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 25, 2010, 11:03:12 PM
Hey, Vern!  Lookit me, I got me a votecount!

Day 1 Votes

Alice (0): Cyril, Quietrain, [i[Metroid[/i]
Carthrat (1): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire
Cyril (3): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (1): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (1): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (1): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (1): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (2): Cyril, Ciato
Snowfire (1): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (1): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

No Vote: Noyn

This is your 24 hour warning!  Just 24 hours in Day 1!

Unless of course a miracle happens and you all get 7 votes on one target!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 25, 2010, 11:44:21 PM
Alright, fresh off of dealing with Quietrain, I have been informed that Cyril's corporate masters are most evil, and let's just say that his free time and energy in said free time have gone missing under suspicious circumstances.  What does this mean?  Same deal as Quietrain, I'll be looking for a replacement for him as well.
Title: Beeswax Garter Grade
Post by: Xanth on May 26, 2010, 12:21:06 AM
Okay, so dinner turned into actually being sociable. Oops. Let's see how far I get before I fall asleep in the chair.

A note first: after this comes sleep, then the same very short period between me waking up and leaving the house. Not that most of you guys need to be coordinating the deadline yet or anything, but my next real appearance will be in the few hours leading up to (and including) it.

...

Metroid: 'He's metagaming'. 'He's cherry picking evidence to fit an argument'. One of these has no hope of getting any support at all. Likewise with the LaL stuff. The distinction is major, and dragged discussion off in the wrong direction. Anyway, the points in #51 I was referring to were 'anti-LAL stance' (1), 'voting Laggy for the same reasons as Snowfire' (2) and 'dislikes Laggy metagaming' (2 1/2). The latter in that while it's technically true, it's not the spirit of the meaning. I'd've called it a straight up three if not for wanting to avoid the semantics.

Anyway, on pondering Metroid the point that's really made me stay my vote is that it just doesn't feel like a sensible scum gambit. I mean sure, lots of activity and blather and vote delay and all that, but I just don't see the coordination or purpose behind it. Flighty high profile arguments that get immediate scrutiny does not make for a safe scum start. Not sure I can so easily see the gambit played on a relatively new player. It's not something I can afford to let go for long, but I can hold to it in the vacuous hole that is the day one crapshoot at least.

Laggy on the other hand looks about as bad as can realistically be at this point. Overplayed argument followed by the flusterbus when last I commented on the situation, following up with some fairly solid game theory help - otherwise known as looking helpful and townie without actually being helpful and townie when combined with little else - the vote hoping, the unvote without re-vote (yes I think that's bad in this situation), and then some good old fashioned absence. Not that I'd hold quite so much against the timeframe of the latter yet, in fairness.

...

(mod ninja)

lol wut. One of my top pair goes and fair enough, but now the other?

I mean, totally not your fault, guys. Obviously. QR especially I hope recovers quick and that attempting this game at all didn't add more stress or anything. But yeah, vexing in game.

I'd say that kills my motivation to do any more this evening, but given that I'm taking Roukanken as a blank slate from QR's lurkiness, I'd basically come to settle on Laggy, as much as I guess at least the absence has now been explained. I'd move away, but there's enough there already that I don't think I can easily justify jumping off. Other than Metroid, who I've just convinced myself doesn't need pursuing today, I guess I'd be looking at Makkotah or Yoshiken, but mostly from other people's rationale. I get the impression that Makkotah has just made a bit of a mess out of the day (I'm not sure how scum fake-explaining my argument would particularly work). Can't say I'm getting great vibes from Yoshiken, but nor particularly terrible ones, but maybe that's just because I'm nodding along to things like his Laggy material.

So, uh, yeah, a bit of a mess here.

I've stayed up far too late to stand a chance of doing anything in the morning, but given how messy this has suddenly becomes I'll try and sneak on at lunchtime to get an extra chance at this.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 26, 2010, 12:22:07 AM
Welcome, stranger.  So, uh, Roukanken.  Any hobbies we should know about, like getting into tournament duels with RPG characters?  Or is that not really your thing?  Just checking.

More seriously, re your comment - and I don't pretend to have any special SCUM RAT INSIGHT here - Rat is a good player, he's not likely to make any howler of a mistake if he did draw scum.  Henchman Mafia I was on Rat's case for exactly "Rat is making sense but BAD SENSE" - "Rat is posting content which is consistent but I don't like it, and there's not much of it."  And he actually was scum that game!  (Then again maybe I was just lucky with a shot in the dark.  Who knows.)

Okay.  Looked things over.  Kilga's point about mc retconning...  okay, that's actually decent.  Could be "didn't write down all my reasons," could be retconning.  May have to revise opinion of mc somewhat downward, although still not entirely comfortable with a Day 1 train here if for no other reason than it's even harder than Day-1-usual to get a proper read on a newbie with just Day 1 content (see: EternalLurker D1 lynch).

Looking back...  hmm, several people of interest.  I've looked back at Yoshi's post, and...  I'm not happy (OMGUS!!!) but it's not as scummy as I feared at first.  Yoshi did feel like he was trying to whip up some paranoia and keep a SnowFire train running on semi-flimsy grounds with Laggy as a convenient backup, but I can buy being worried by my dismissal of Rat's point if you think Rat is in the right on this.  Actually more worried by Alice of the two who were training on me now, since he's combined lurking + content I don't find really plausible, but I have trouble really getting a read here since we already know lurking doesn't say much about Alice's towniness.

I'm still not really comfortable with Carthrat, so I'm sticking with my vote for now.  While I'm not feeling towny-MC as strongly as before, now that I look at Carth's posts again...  MC is actually almost the only player he's talked about.  A little bit on Laggy vs. Alice and that extra role speculation on Noyn is unhelpful (which I agree with) but otherwise Carth has avoided dropping opinions on anyone else, even to say "And I have no idea about others."  Could be RL-distraction, I guess.  But still getting a bad vibe here.

Mod-ninja.  And now Laggy is zapped as well?  Yeesh.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 01:06:12 AM
Light post, but I have a few questions, so...

not to mention that quickhammers have occured here in the past

On Day 1?

there almost certainly are Scum on the wagon

Alice: What makes you think there are scum on the L-4 jokevote wagon?

I ask, because being on an early wagon tends to draw scrutiny (of the three people on the wagon, only Taitoro has not had much of a push).  And scum generally don't want attention.  I mean, yes: there could be scum on the wagon, but "almost certainly are scum on the wagon"?  Where do you get this information?

Laggy's behaviour: first he votes me over lurking, while complaining about the Rat train, then he backpedals stating that "oh hey maybe voting Rat to L-2 might be a good idea after all for we get useful information this way!"

Alice: Wait what do you mean voting rat to L-2?

At the time Laggy voted for rat, he was the ONLY person on rat.  Are you talking about an earlier Laggy post?

--------------------------------------------


On a different theme, people who know Carthrat's playstyle: is tunneling on one player normal for him?  So far he's never moved his vote, and only provided serious opinions on two people (myself and Laggy) including writing his first serious case upon only skimming my posts.

If it's not normal for him, I'd actually like to build a case on it.

NINJA'D Snowfire thinks the same thing.
Xanth NINJA'D Yeah, not getting the "Makkotah misrepresenting a post as a scum gambit"--it's not drawing any votes.  On the other hand Okay Zenny, I know you don't like to move your joke vote early, but we're into the last 24 hours now.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Noyn on May 26, 2010, 01:41:08 AM
Bah....sorry got busy with work and stuff the last two days. >_<
Gotta work tomorrow as well, after that I have the rest of the week off thought.
Really sorry about this.

Will take my time reading everything I missed to catch up and after that post again.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 26, 2010, 01:45:59 AM
Alright!  Cyril has been replaced by Glen.

Given how things have worked, is there anyone else just recently kicked in the nuts by life that would like to speak up now so that I can deal with it?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 26, 2010, 02:04:07 AM
Just got back home.  Blah some reading to do.  Will certainly have a vote placed later this evening.  Leaning towards Carth I think?  Maybe Alice.  Neither of their arguments seem to make that much sense to me but I've only skimmed things at this point, so this is subject to change on a more thorough reading.  Still don't see what's all that wrong with going LAL early day 1 to pressure people into talking.

Also sidenote: lol "you are making it hard for me to believe you were Jack Daniels in the last game."  I spent that entire game flailing around investigations wise.  I may have roleplayed OK and got lucky on being cleared town but playing mafia wise I still don't see how my play there didn't suck. 
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 26, 2010, 03:43:30 AM
Carthrat:  Whole argument against LaL day 1 is "IT IS NOT A LEGIT TACTIC" but quite frankly given Alice's history you saying that isn't that convincing, at least regarding him.  And, exactly what do you propose to do at a point where there's 2 pages and only one of it has anything other than jokevotes?  If nothing it puts pressure on people to start talking ASAP.

Second post:  Uhhh what.  There's a huge difference between "Alice gets away with lurking scum or town, vote" and "MC always posts in that style not enough to vote".  You conflating the two doesn't sit well at all with me.  Then there's more "LaL is bad because I say so"  and "MC's reporting is bad because it lacks strong opinions." 

Third post:  Kind of redeems himself by pointing out that MC's reasoning for having a vote on Xanth is silly.  However he says that this is the issue with MC's posts, which I guess explains the "strong opinions" bit in the last post.  Still disagree with everything else he's said.

Yoshi: "It takes actual content to move a vote" made me cringe until his next post. After he clarified what you meant.... well, yes, except Laggy moved his vote off Alice after a mod post, and again after a post I... would certainly call bad, but not contentless.  Mind you that Kilga also prodded Laggy about why he didn't change his vote.  Yeah, not good enough for me, but certainly not as telling about you as I thought at first glance.  Disagree with his take on Laggy, but I have nothing else to add

Alice:   Maybe you weren't there for long, but I certainly recall seeing you and going "oh look, there he is and without a Mafia post."  Though unless you have the chat logs from Monday (I know even if you're not around you're still signed into IRC) to prove me wrong, it's your word against mine.  Onto other topics... exactly WHY must there be scum on the early rat train?  Aside from that I basically disagree with everyone on your suspects list (Laggy I feel like I've been over, MC because the reporting charge is kind of stupid, and Snowfire because you think the reporting charge isn't stupid).  Not enough to make me vote you over Carthrat, but this will certainly be in the back of my mind.

MC:  Playstyle discussion is not bad.  I'm basically still new to this, Noyn certainly is to this group, I'm sure more people are, etc. etc.  Also, going after Xanth for verbosity is the pot calling the kettle black, come to think of it.  What I don't understand is how you don't understand him theorizing about the overall game context.  And moving your vote to pressure someone with 24 hours left?  These... feel mostly like new-to-the-game mistakes at kneejerk, but I'm not sure how much of that is Cthulhu Mafia's day 1 making me paranoid.

Roukanken:  Few seemed to think it was odd that people flipped about Alex's 3rd vote on whoever-it-was-I'm-not-going-to-check last game, but yes fair point.  It was a stupid mistake in hindsight (even with 4 scum, gambiting so hard that you sacrifice the other 3 scum is too lolwhat.)  Aside from that, still don't see why D1 LaL for pressure is bad, etc., saying "D1 LaL for pressure is bad because D1 LaL is bad" doesn't mean much to me coming from non-confirmed-town people playing in this game.  Even Xanth's argument about why it's bad is "because it's a bad mechanic" and a note about how Alice townlurked once, without even addressing why it's a bad move for putting pressure on people to talk.

----

Okay folks, at this point I've only read up to Rou's post, I see that Xanth's finished his analysis and there's more MC posts and a lot of other stuff, but I'm going to go meet some friends for dinner.  Right now I see nothing that makes me wary of tossing out a vote for Carthrat. 

##UNVOTE: Ciato
##VOTE: Carthrat
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 04:18:27 AM
More seriously, re your comment - and I don't pretend to have any special SCUM RAT INSIGHT here - Rat is a good player, he's not likely to make any howler of a mistake if he did draw scum.  Henchman Mafia I was on Rat's case for exactly "Rat is making sense but BAD SENSE" - "Rat is posting content which is consistent but I don't like it, and there's not much of it."  And he actually was scum that game!  (Then again maybe I was just lucky with a shot in the dark.  Who knows.)

I'm still not really comfortable with Carthrat, so I'm sticking with my vote for now.  While I'm not feeling towny-MC as strongly as before, now that I look at Carth's posts again...  MC is actually almost the only player he's talked about.  A little bit on Laggy vs. Alice and that extra role speculation on Noyn is unhelpful (which I agree with) but otherwise Carth has avoided dropping opinions on anyone else, even to say "And I have no idea about others."  Could be RL-distraction, I guess.  But still getting a bad vibe here.

Okay, well, nobody's answered me on my "does Carthrat usually tunnel?" but I'll take SnowFire's post as rat acting unusually.

The Carthrat Case

So...Rat's tunneling on me, putting on pressure right from the start, and never changing his vote (and the only other player he's put serious consideration on is "almost switching votes to Laggy").  What could this mean?  Well...traditionally it's a cop-tell (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=JEEP%27s_Tells_for_Finding_the_Cop).  And...there was a night 0, so hypothetically he could have an investigation.  I actually stopped at one point to check if I'm a miller; Partial Claim: I am not a Miller (outside of bastard mods not telling me stuff).

Scum trying to drop a cop-tell and get people to follow them, though?  Sure, I can see it.

The 3-person SnowFire Train

Okay, so Carthrat makes a post with weak content (which he admits to having only skimmed my posts in making).  It sits a while with nobody calling him on it.

4:27pm: (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108556.html#msg108556) SnowFire calls him on it
7:37pm: (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108579.html#msg108579) Ciato votes SnowFire for attacking Laggy and not doing much afterwards
2:51am: (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108612.html#msg108612) Alice votes SnowFire (specifically for calling rat out)
6:01am: (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108624.html#msg108624) Yoshiken says he doesn't like SnowFire promising content and not delivering overnight

I think there's a term for this (Chainsaw defence or something?) and obviously there's too many people on SnowFire for them all to be scum.  But...yeah, this train really came out of nowhere to me.

Carthrat's content

You know, I'll keep this minimal, because so far I seem to have failed pretty badly at judging people interacting with me (positively or negatively).  This stood out to me, though.

Yoshiken in particular did not look like he was really flailing to me, so I do not understand how she could put so much effort into talking about how uncomfortable he makes her

This is just based off a quick ctrl+F for "Yoshi", so appologies if I misrepresent anyone here, but...

People uncomfortable with Yoshi:
Laggy (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108571.html#msg108571), mc (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108587.html#msg108587), Ciato (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108657.html#msg108657), Kilga (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108593.html#msg108593), SnowFire (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108651.html#msg108651), Xanth (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108680.html#msg108680), Zenny (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108713.html#msg108713).

People saying "why are you uncomfortable about Yoshi?":
Carthrat (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108608.html#msg108608)

Rat takes a rather odd opinion.

This fits well with the idea of rat=scum.  Maybe trying to make me look worse.  Maybe trying to protect a scumbuddy (Yoshi was on the SnowFire train AND Carthrat attacks Laggy for his attack on Yoshi, too).

##Unvote: Noyn (Still not happy about the zero content, but promise of content day 2).
##Vote: Carthrat

NINJA'D by Zenny.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 04:52:47 AM
My top two suspects getting hit with the replacement hammer? Lovely. My vote on Laggy was not for his lack of activity, though, so Glen's inheriting it. Enjoy.

Slight frown at Roukan's vote, given what went down on Day 1 of Meme Mafia. Lynch threshold panic isn't the towniest of actions, sure, but it's far from unprecedented as a townie action. Did you really not see anything more worth voting? Here's to hoping your proper read after waking up turns up something better.

Oh man MC what's going on here. I was almost set to switch back to her for the vote reasoning retcon (and I apologize, but I cannot make heads nor tails of your response to that accusation; specifically, why you say you felt you still "could not get a proper evaluation" on Xanth when that certainly looks like what you attempted to do with the second post), but then we have a switch to a lurker after all the LAL kerfuffle (which made me want to vote her even more), but now we're suggesting scum pairings with the Chainsaw Defense accusation? And some role speculation that leads to what looks like a pretty crazy role theory? (And as long as you're going down that road, you fail to account for the idea that Rat could be an Insane Cop.) This...everything here is too newbie play, and I just can't bring myself to vote for it. Not right now. Similar feelings to Xanth on this, I guess.

Zenny: To hopefully resolve your confusion, Day 1 LAL is not a good tactics because there are far too many...what did Shana call 'em..."potential mitigating factors". Maybe one has projects or essays or exams to do, or maybe one has to work extra hours, or maybe one loses power/their internet connection, or maybe one gets called to an important social gathering by family and/or friends, or a myriad of other things. These could all end up taking up a whole real-life day, possibly more, and they have zero bearing on one's alignment.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 26, 2010, 04:53:30 AM
Day 1 Votes

Alice (0): Cyril, Quietrain, [i[Metroid[/i]
Carthrat (3): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire, Zenny, Metroid
Glen (3): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (1): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (0): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (1): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (1): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (1): Cyril, Ciato
Snowfire (1): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

No Vote: Noyn, Glen

18 hours remain in Day 1.

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 26, 2010, 04:58:43 AM
Metroid, on one hand thanks for backing me, but I am slightly nervous that you don't take my posts as gospel.  I wasn't being sarcastic when I said I don't have "special scum rat insight."  I don't want to dive too deep into player meta but since it seems we're going there anyway...   To Rat's credit, I seem to recall from Discworld Mafia Rat correctly declared on the last day "I'm going to spend this entire day beating up on Taishyr" because, well, he thought Tai was scum.  Which he was.  And in Meme Mafia Carthrat was 100% correct about Kilga being scum.  Of course, these are both later day cases, which have more information to work with than Day 1 cases.

And more generally, player meta beyond "give newbies some room to make faux-pas" is very dangerous, as people can and will switch up play styles based on any number of factors.  The one player meta bit I did invoke is the reverse of what I said about newbies - that for strong players, the "burden of evidence" for a vote on them tends to be lower.  It's bad for town to, say, vote purely on technical merit of argument-framing, which means scum win for sure if they have the "good" mafia players.

My case on Rat is slightly more direct: Tunneling + low content is suspicious no matter who does it.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 26, 2010, 05:02:27 AM
Slight clarification: by "posts" in "don't take my posts as gospel" I mean specifically "metroid drawing the conclusion that Rat must be acting unusually based on my comments."
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 05:39:14 AM
My case on Rat is slightly more direct: Tunneling + low content is suspicious no matter who does it.

Well right: Tunneling is my main issue with rat.  I just didn't want to make these arguments if Rat's usual playstyle was tunneling (the same way I didn't vote Zenny when he said "I don't like moving my jokevote early." as I had been planning to vote Zenny with that post).

(And as long as you're going down that road, you fail to account for the idea that Rat could be an Insane Cop.)

Considered it.  It would have to be both insane cop, AND have zero hints about being insane in the role PM.  Oh, and one more thing I didn't go into: a skilled town cop probably wouldn't tunnel quite so much--even if they don't move their vote, they'd give opinions on more players.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 26, 2010, 05:42:11 AM
Kilga:  Well, yes.  And with that in mind, had Laggy kept his vote on Alice after Excal's note on him, and... to a lesser degree, kept his vote on Carth after he posted, then I'd see what the big deal is.  At that junction of the game it wouldn't have been hard for anyone pressed for time to pop in and say "I've got a project, not devoting any brainpower to this right now but I am present" or "Guys I injured my back and am high on pain medicine" or "my house is full of bees wtf".  The lack of power/internet connection is a more valid point, but I don't think that changes my stance enough to change how I feel about Laggy/Glen.  

MC:  While initially I did write that I was pretty uncomfortable with Yoshi, after he clarified what he meant by "it takes content to change a vote", I merely only disagree with him and edited my statement on him to reflect that before posting.

Ninja'd.  Most games don't give insane cops hints that they're insane.  Cthulhu mafia was speshul.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glen Veil on May 26, 2010, 05:50:44 AM
Alright, finally finished catching up with a thorough read.  Going to try and keep this short since I'm tired and about ready for bed.

I'm currently leaning negatively towards MC and Noyn, MC for a variety of reasons and Noyn pretty much for a complete and utter lack of content.  Noyn however can be put off because if they are hardcore scum lurking then it will become painfully obvious in later days.

On to MC:

States a dislike of Yoshi's posts (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108587.html#msg108587), but stays on Xanth on an initial vote (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108560.html#msg108560) that strikes me as simply asking for clarification, and there are no posts from Xanth imbetween for her to change the reason to anything other then clarification.  Not understanding logic of sitting on a vote for someone you simply want clarification on when there is someone you actually find suspicious.

The staying on Xanth up through page 4 has pretty much already been covered, so I'll just leave that alone now.

Page 5, expresses discontent over the content of Xanth's post here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108664.html#msg108664) when before her reasonings were first for clarification then more of a lack of content pressure vote, then proceeds to make a pretty pointless lurker prod vote.

This (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108715.html#msg108715) post, firstly want to point out that only two people have voted for Snow, I wouldn't call that a three person train.  Not seeing the whole uncomfortableness with Yoshi fiasco either, since people tend to view things in different ways.  Yoshi is not actually voting for Snowfire, and Ciato has since moved her vote elsewhere.

All of this has just been ugh to me, and even though there is a good chance of it just being newbie mistakes it stands out the most to me right now so:

##Vote: MC

I do plan to take a closer look at Alice, Kil, and Rou and slightly less so with Xanth and Yoshi tomorrow, but for now I'm about to fall asleep.  Everyone else so far hasn't really left any bad impressions on me currently sow ill probably be left until day two to look closer at.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Carthrat on May 26, 2010, 06:56:31 AM
If we can acknowledge that tunneling is legitimate, which I think was just done... I'm sorry, but I don't view offering random opinions that are surely subject to change as particularly helpful. You can presume that if I don't talk about someone I'm undecided. I prefer to talk about what's important rather than just anything that most of the game won't read anyway. IMPACT!

I really dislike the way MC has addressed some of my posts and am compelled to stick with him as a result, naysayers be damned. My point on Yoshi was not so much 'you cannot possibly have anything strange to think about him' and much more a query of why, in fact, you could afford to drop so much wordage about him (and others!) and yet stick with a tepid Xanth case, then a Noyn case. Yet this vital segment of my post was omitted. I resent my early-day skimming being represented as a bad thing, too, when I did return later to clarify and reaffirm my position.

I am not really impressed by your voteswitch to me either, not only for the obvious but because you were premediating it based on playstyle meta, as well as some fairly simplistic logic regarding fast pairings/defenses earlier which just seems ridiculous to being talking about owing to scum rarely, if ever, blatantly stepping up to bat for one another.

There aren't many other people I'm willing to consider voting for. I've considered Snow but like his recent directness and feel of all the people attacking me he's had better rationale. Zenthor conversly lacks anything I can recognize as a case, I'm not sure how early LaL stuff really reflects on me badly, and the way he just dismisses my thoughts on MC grates... not sure my irritation is talking more than my reason, though. On the shoulders of Laggy's play I would vote Glen. Actually I'm not especially happy with Glen's last post. It's hard to see what his actual case on MC is, he just seems to have kinda listed her actions...

Ah heck

##Unvote, ##Vote: Glen Veil Yeah, can't see the case he made, and Laggy's earlier actions were bizzare.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Roukanken on May 26, 2010, 11:35:26 AM
Alright, so. Good morning, apologies for the lateness, got caught up giving the room a much-needed cleanup and finally watching the last two episodes of Kaiji (;____;)

Anyway. Proper reading now, focusing on the names that are getting thrown around the most.

Laggy/Glen:
"Voting Lurker!Rat is bad, but voting Lurker!Alice is good!" (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108411.html#msg108411)
Laziness in general is not a scumtell, but his favouring Lurker!Rat over Lurker!Alice for no good reason is catching my attention.
In general, LAL on Day 1 is a very easy way for an active scumteam to look useful when they aren't.
I don't understand what he's trying to get at here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108571.html#msg108571), when he claims that not poking the lurkers would have kept us in jokephase land. Except by the time the LAL accusations had emerged we already had Makkotah and his paranoid OH NOES WHAT IF CARTH GETS LYNCHED case, which discussion could have emerged from no problem.
Glen's first post with the case against MC is very much an IIoA wall, but given he's a fellow replacement I'll give him another post to hopefully become more coherent.
(Glen also gets points for a Nao avatar, though that may be because I recently read the entire Liar Game manga in the space of one day.)

MC:
Not revealing the case on Tai (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108418.html#msg108418) until pressed on it does not seem like a very Townie action. And when the case is actually revealed (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108512.html#msg108512), its two main points are 'hey guys my vote on Carth was TOTALLY SRS because being third on wagon is totally Townie!' and 'Don't vote me, I'm everyone's imouto and they'll get mad at you >:|' which are WIFOM and needless self-defense respectively. (I still think this Imouto Defense carries much more weight than people are willing to give it - I don't see why Town!MC should be trying to argue that people would come to her defense solely on meta when, from what I've heard, it's her first game anyway.)
Then we get a wall of lurker checking which achieves nothing, (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108528.html#msg108528) a confession of misrep and needless role speculation on Noyn, (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108546.html#msg108546) and voting Xanth to clarify his case on Laggy while only offering 'there MIGHT be something there' in terms of actual suspicion. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108560.html#msg108560) Where's the actual scumhunting?
We get a long arduous post about Yoshi (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108587.html#msg108587), but she decides to write it off and keep her vote on the guy who she's already said is suspicious because he uses a lot of words. Which, in the end, results in her going for just another lurker (a point that rings doubly true given that she targets Noyn shortly afterward).

Makkotah:
PARANOIA ABOUT CARTH QUICKLYYYYYYYNCH! (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108389.html#msg108389)
Okay, seriously. What does saying this accomplish, exactly?
Makkotah then pulls an anti-Laggy and picks out Lurker!Alice to focus his attention on. Jeez, man, the game's been up for about 8 hours. People have other things to do than play Mafia, believe it or not.
This post is empty and self-defensive, and could easily have been ignored entirely. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108525.html#msg108525)
No original content here; disagreeing with the MC case and nodding his head along with Kilga. Desperately trying to look like he's contributing when really he isn't. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108555.html#msg108555)
Explain exactly why you needed to come to Xanth's defense here. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108567.html#msg108567) I'd have assumed Xanth was a better speaker of Xanth than you, and he's a big boy who can look after himself.
I can't be bothered linking the 3-4 posts he makes which achieve little beyond further defending the Alice case, which, for the record, he never even placed a vote on. His vote was still lying on Ciato that whole time, and Ciato doesn't come up in his suspicions at all, even for a throwaway 'needs to post'.
Then we have this. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108713.html#msg108713)
Quote from: Makkotah
Aside from that, still don't see why D1 LaL for pressure is bad, etc., saying "D1 LaL for pressure is bad because D1 LaL is bad" doesn't mean much to me coming from non-confirmed-town people playing in this game.
Too much talking in Day 1 is very very bad. Kilga will attest to this, but in MotK the worst games are inevitably the ones where Day 1 takes up half the post count. The simple fact is that it's freaking Day 1 - there isn't a mountain of content to discuss, and as a result there are players who simply out of playstyle try to avoid saying too much. And of course, scum benefits from this because people will argue semantics over tiny points that aren't really all that scummy.

Snowfire:
The initial Carth tunneling up to the Noyn vote can be considered a joke. It's starting here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108406.html#msg108406), when he puts the vote back on Carth and still doesn't give any decent reasoning for it, that things get rather iffy. Given his later claim of oh wait are we srs now (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108499.html#msg108499) I'm on the fence about this segment of his play.
On that note, the linked post is the first thing that Snowfire's been scummy for - the case on Laggy. First point against him is a long-winded way of saying 'Yes, Laggy's case on Alice is totally okay except no except yes'. Seriously, are you trying to agree with him or disagree with him?
Second point is slightly more viable, but first point is still baaaaaad.
Quote from: Snow
Reporting is bad if it is hiding not having an opinion on anything. I feel that I have an idea of where MC stands on people and there's a paper trail to hold against her if there's any whipsaw position changes.
You're going to have to clarify this paper trail, because personally I can't see any real opinions from MC beyond 'lurkers are bad, so is Yoshi but not bad enough to vote for!'
Quote from: Snow
Rat is a good player, he's not likely to make any howler of a mistake if he did draw scum.
What sort of reasoning is this? 'Rat is a good player, so the instant he does anything that's even remotely scummy it must be a scum slipup'? Never mind the fact you admit yourself that this idea of yours might not have any weight.

Those are all the people I really have problems with at the moment. Not seeing the cases on Yoshi or Carth. I want to give Glen at least until Day 2 to pick up for Laggy, but after that he has a lot to answer for. MC and Makkotah irritate making serious attempts at cases (Yoshi and Alice respectively) but leaving their votes on much less serious suspects for no good reason (Xanth for being words words words, and Ciato for absolutely nothing). Snow is tunneling horribly on Carth.

##Unvote: Makkotah
Vote: metroid_composite


Since it's late in the day, it's lynch-picking time, and I'm the only vote on Makkotah soooo...
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 12:39:30 PM
Apologies for the long silence, currently at friend's house, lolwtf bees, was enjoying myself instead of keeping up here. Anyway.

Frankly I understand the case on MC at this point but read it as newbie play, and perhaps more importantly as newbie town play (and as Mein Fuhrervid said, chasing newbies doesn't always help. They can be scum! But in this case I don't think so... yet. Toro may just be being stupid thus far). I do not think I support the lynch as such, though I may need a reread to solidify or verify this.

I don't have terribly too much time right now, but a few thoughts: Rat, saying "I resent my early-day skimming being represented as a bad thing, too, when I did return later to clarify and reaffirm my position." is sorta like saying "I regret people believing my initial statement that I was in the KKK when I returned later to clarify and reaffirm, saying that I would have joined but they weren't open at the time." except far less serious. It's still an early day skimming, it's still a bad thing, coming back later and explaining helps some but you did the former first. Getting indignant doesn't help your case there.

This being said yeah I've been doing the same thing as him in part - if I don't have words down on someone yet I'm either waiting for more dialogue from them or I'm currently undecided.

what else was there... right, reply to Xanth. Laggy on flusterbus I can kinda sorta see... But. Not really sure I feel the charge of cherrypicking so well here, and honestly this feels like massive mountain/molehill the more I look over the beginnings of the day -in addition- to my previous concerns. This being said on some level there is a possible priority cross - even discounting that I'm not reading Laggy/nowGlen the way you are, I disagree on "terribad" over "none". None is active lurking. None is pretty much blatant scumplay, even when town does it. (QR redeemed herself, and then "back'd" out.) (...sorry, QR.) Terribad is still someone attempting to explain themselves and communicate, someone investing themselves in the game.

Need to reread for the people not being discussed as well, that'll come in a while because I'm honestly kinda busy as it stands.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 26, 2010, 01:59:28 PM
arghle. All coherency is gone, illness is back. Gonna keep trying to play, so whatever.

I'm still not seeing what everyone's problem with me is. Going through MC's list in order: Laggy's was my "we need content", which I've explained since. (Zenny said the same, so I won't mention him later.) MC's, I responded to, and it's almost entirely playstyle. Ciato attacks me for the SnowFire train which I was never on. I said he was suspicious for promising content and not delivering, which MC pointed out the times on, so I took that part back (although dismissing Rat's post entirely was still bad.) I am in no way supporting a SnowFire lynch today, and I have no idea why this has gained so much attention. (This is also funny, since Ciato says she basically disagrees with everything I said, yet the previous post... mostly agreed with what I said. hah.) Kilga gives no reasoning whatsoever - "I don't like either side of Laggy/Yoshi, I like Laggy less so I'll give Yoshi a small pass for now." SnowFire's the same in the post MC linked, with "I'm tempted into a Yoshi/Alice vote" with no other mention of me whatsoever, and the previous post just explaining that content was coming. Xanth puts it down to vibes, and says he's not getting good or bad vibes.

So, can someone please clarify the case against me? I'd like to have something to defend against if I'm gonna be picking up suspicion/votes.
-------
Getting an odd vibe from Tai. He seems to be chiming in on most cases, yet taking no strong sides on anything - outside of general "MC is more newbie than scummy", I'm finding it hard to place his opinions on anything. Probably deserving of a reread when I have more energy.
RouOH dear GOD WALL OF TEXT. Good to know we've got an active replacement, feeling pretty good given the content so far. Can't say the same about Glen, who's only contribution so far has been mostly the old case against MC, which... yeah, does seem more newbie than scummy to me, at least so far. Content with leaving my vote there, and... deadline's 10pm here, so... yeah, should be around for it, hopefully.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 26, 2010, 02:05:40 PM
Sasarai calmly watched the arguing warriors from a safe distance. Beside him was his adjutant, who spied at them with a spyglass.

"So, how does it look?"

"Quite alright, sir," replied the adjutant, lowering the spyglass. "As for the standings as they are..."

Sasarai smiled. His adjutant was learning swiftly.

Day 1 Votecount

Alice (0): Cyril, Quietrain, Metroid
Carthrat (3): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire, Zenny, Metroid
Glen (4): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga, Carthrat
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (1): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (0): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (2): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice, Glen, Roukanken
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (1): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (1): Cyril, Ciato
Snowfire (1): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

No Vote: Noyn

There are 13 chumps currently squabbling, so an agreement by 7 is required to focus lord Blight's sadism.

I believe 9 hours remain in Day 1.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 03:01:52 PM
Yoshiken: Yeah, if you can't seem to remember what I've been saying, do that reread; been saying more than that, and I'd say committing my vote to Xanth and (thus far at least, when we actually hit deadline unless my words have convinced people I'm the one who's likely to need to move here, but) not swapping off is at least one more "strong stance" for you that seems to have been conveniently missed in its entirety by your little tossaway comment there.

Still somewhat swamped, should be around in two hours or so.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 26, 2010, 03:14:43 PM
Mm, I had a feeling that was more me missing stuff than you not posting it. The comment there was more of a self-reminder to read over your stuff when I have a chance.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glen Veil on May 26, 2010, 04:56:47 PM
Alright, back, I will admit to thinking I had more on MC then I did when I first started that post, posting what I did was mostly just me finished writing about what I still saw was mostly because it had stood out the most at the time, and by the time I was finished writing about MC I was tired and about to fall asleep, at that point I just felt like I'd rather get something out rather then wait until the last 10 hours before I even posted.

Going to read over pretty much everyone else more closely now and write down things that don't sit well with me as I go, if I notice someone point the same thing out later I'll try to remember to note it, but no promises.  Will put a TLDR paragraph with final opinions at the bottom since a lot of this is probably likely to have already been gone over.

The first post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108603.html#msg108603) to give me weird vibes.  Has that there must be scum on that train sentence, already touched on.  What looks worse to me is the cheer leading of role speculation in the fourth paragraph for day 1.  I'm of the opinion that any discussion on the vote blocking is pointless WIFOM that won't help us at all today, and is something that should be set aside for later once more roles become clear.  Seeing someone try to encourage people to discuss something that won't give useful opinions towards peoples actual alignments just does not sit well with me.  Noting Rat dismissing the idea of discussing Noyn rolestuff to be bad.

Hm, I honestly thought more stuff looked bad to me, but after rereading most of it just blurs together into people arguing semantics on strategies for day one, most of it pretty much reads to me as "You're bad for supporting this, no you're bad for attacking them for believing that," and basically just continues a bit as NO U.

I disagree with Snowfire that tunneling is suspicious, sure it can be bad, but I'm more suspicious of people that acknowledge a majority of the cases made, since it strikes me as leaving places to fall back on rather then actively pursuing people that one finds actually suspicious.  That said I'm not actually getting any bad vibes from Snow.

Don't feel great about Xanth, however I think it's more due to me not liking his reasons for sticking onto Laggy/me, but I generally like the rest of what he has to say, so I'm thinking the feeling is more of an OMGUS kind of vibe.

Neutral feelings on Yoshi, on one hand I can kind of see how maybe people may see him as needlessly grasping for straws on people, on the other hand he strikes me as someone who is at least looking for other things to go on other then the merry go round of disagreements on meta and whatnot that just about everyone else seems to be caught up in.

Yeah, only people that are really not sitting well with me at this point are Alice, Nyon, and Mc.  Alice's only posts with content have encouraged discussion in something that generates opinion less noise that is actively unhelpful for town, and votes Snow for wishy washiness, which I don't quite agree with personally.  Nyon has said nothing of worth today at all other then the initial voteblocker stuff, and has me pegging him as scumlurker until he gets some really damn good content soon.  Mc has been gone over, and while I do feel it possible that it's just newbie mistakes, I'm not feeling anyone who really deserves a vote more, other then maybe Alice, who I'm hesitant to switch to since lack of posts and also lack of votes when we only have slightly more then 5 hours left.

Ugh, it's probably pointless, but:

##Unvote: Metroid
##Vote: Alice


I get the feeling the switch is probably pointless, and that I'll probably have to end up switching to someone I rather not vote for for survival anyways, but I rather see Alice rather then MC go at this point.  Will claim in ~2 hours if it looks like my head is still on the chopping block at that point.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Cotigo on May 26, 2010, 05:56:56 PM
Uhmhlnblbh no coffee in the house, just woke up, got to go to work soon, will be at work at deadline so I'll try to drop in during my lunch break but we'll see how that all plays out.

Responding to the most obvious thing to respond to

Quote
Okay, seriously. What does saying this accomplish, exactly?

Intended accomplishment:  Getting Carth out of L-3.  Actual accomplishment: Drawing attention to myself.

Quote
Makkotah then pulls an anti-Laggy and picks out Lurker!Alice to focus his attention on. Jeez, man, the game's been up for about 8 hours. People have other things to do than play Mafia, believe it or not.

How exactly is going after Lurker!Alice pulling an anti-Laggy?

Quote
No original content here; disagreeing with the MC case and nodding his head along with Kilga. Desperately trying to look like he's contributing when really he isn't.
Explain exactly why you needed to come to Xanth's defense here. I'd have assumed Xanth was a better speaker of Xanth than you, and he's a big boy who can look after himself.

I felt like I understood what Xanth was talking about but then I didn't. 

Quote
His vote was still lying on Ciato that whole time, and Ciato doesn't come up in his suspicions at all, even for a throwaway 'needs to post'.

Addressed this already in one of those posts you couldn't be bothered to address.  Reading is fun.

Quote
Then we have this.
Quote from: Makkotah
Aside from that, still don't see why D1 LaL for pressure is bad, etc., saying "D1 LaL for pressure is bad because D1 LaL is bad" doesn't mean much to me coming from non-confirmed-town people playing in this game.
Too much talking in Day 1 is very very bad. Kilga will attest to this, but in MotK the worst games are inevitably the ones where Day 1 takes up half the post count. The simple fact is that it's freaking Day 1 - there isn't a mountain of content to discuss, and as a result there are players who simply out of playstyle try to avoid saying too much. And of course, scum benefits from this because people will argue semantics over tiny points that aren't really all that scummy.

Too much talking is bad?  Really?  lolkay.  Day 1 taking up half the post count sounds like more of a problem with people not talking enough on other days. 
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 26, 2010, 06:24:48 PM
May not be here for deadline, so a note for Sasarai and the playerbase as a whole.  Remember that the deadline is soft, so long as there is conversation, the Day will not end.  But, a fifteen minute lull will end the day automatically, with no chance for sudden death with a tie.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Alice on May 26, 2010, 06:32:59 PM
Agh, have surprisingly less time right now than I had expected, will be back in a couple hours, only posting major points right now:

I fail to see how the "m_c reporting charge" is weak, I mean yes Peyton was posting walls of reporter-style posts but if you read them they contained actual valid points and opinions, which is what is lacking here.

I assumed that Scum were on the Rat jokevote train from a simple statistics argument, come on here, people, given a wagon that builds that rapidly and that easily, there is almost certainly at least one Scum on it simply because there are a nontrivial amount of Scum in the game to begin with, and it's exceedingly likely that one of them decided that hopping onto Rat was a good idea.

Glen's latest post is awful - so are my posts generating discussion, or noise? Which is it? No, I wasn't voting Snow for wishy-washiness, I was voting him for agreeing with Rat's post, then throwing its content out because of (and I quote) "meh", and then voting Rat for no appreciable reason. Lern2read. Your entire post is awful, all of your opinions read like something along the lines of "maybe X but also perhaps Y and perchance also Z really I'm not sure now come to think of it". Also - you spend most of your post slamming m_c, and then vote me over...two lines complaining that you disagreed with my reasons for voting Snow (which you also got wrong, see above). Le what, monsieur?

Somewhat tempted to actually vote him if it weren't for the fact that it all comes off far more as "completely clueless noob" than someone actually Scummy. Really, I'm not sure of what to make of this - Laggy and m_c are tied in how likely I'd like to vote for them, but Glen's latest post is messing up my read of Laggy horribly, and m_c still hasn't actually produced anything terribly useful. Not comfortable with my vote for Snow anymore - still disagree with him re: Carthrat, but other than that his more recent content is at least somewhat reasonable, not to mention at least useful (unlike, say, Glen's and m_c's), so ##Unvote, ##Vote: metroid_composite
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 06:51:38 PM
Alright, I suppose I should clear a few things up.

I'll admit to intentionally drawing some attention since I wanted to read reactions (being the third vote in the jokevote train, etc).  Early in the day, this is fine.  Late in the day, being distracting doesn't help town.  So...I should probably answer a few questions about myself.


Asking post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108418.html#msg108418): Post went through a few revisions
Revision 1: first I was going to post a weak analysis
Revision 2: Then I realized we actually have night 0 role information so I was going to post "whoa, wait, some people might have role information so day 1 doesn't have to be pure guesswork like Cthulu/Meme"
Revision 3: I realized that if people don't want to reveal role information this early, rolefishing like that would be bad.  At this point I was unsure how the day was going to proceed, so I asked if posting a flimsy argument was a good idea.

Summary post:
People around me were chasing lurkers.  The problem I have with this is that they were focusing on two people and there were a lot more lurkers.  This would make it very easy for a scum-lurk to slip through the cracks.  In the mean time I used the post to organize my own thoughts--since other people were going after lurkers, I would go after people who had posted things, but had little real content.  In particular:
Candidate #1: Zenny (had not moved his joke vote)
Candidate #2: Xanth (Jumped on the anti-Laggy train for what I misread as almost reportering SnowFire)
Candidate #3: Kilga (I fully expected to get some criticism over the "should I post my grasping-at-straws theory?" and...criticism of that was the sum-total of Kigla's content at the time).
Candidate #4: Noyn (Four posts, all only about himself and his situation.  Wanted to give him time to log back in before pursuing).
Candidate #5: Quiet Rain (pursued LAL, but unlike Laggy had not contributed in other ways.  Hesitant here due to IRL excuse, though).

Oops, meant to move my vote (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108560.html#msg108560): this post also went through a couple revisions.
#1: Stating a case on Zenny, with the fact that he had not moved his joke vote or given strong opinions on players despite being around recently.
#2: Oh crap, Ninja'd by Zenny.  Delete half my post.  I have to leave in 5 minutes, so...process of elimination: IRL excuse makes me wary of pushing QR, Noyn hasn't been gone long enough to complain, Kilga's had fine content, which leaves Xanth.

I'd like to take a moment and point out that, if I actually cared about appearing innocent, I had a very easy option--don't post the scatterbrained post, lurk for 4 more hours, and then come across as coherent when I do post.

New people show up, and wtf Yoshiken (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108587.html#msg108587)
I find the post seriously flawed, but seriously flawed in a seemingly random manner.  Internally inconsistent with "Early LAL is bad.  Pressure votes are good early."  Inconsistent with criticizing one of my bigger content posts, and praising what I saw as a weak post of mine.  Not a logically strong post, but the weak logic was not slanted in...any direction at all that I could see.  So I concluded probably town, and did not move my vote.

Once again, IF my primary goal was to appear innocent, THEN I could easily vote for Yoshi here.  Or vote for Laggy/Glen for the OMGUS.  My actual thoughts here were "I think the bad logic is pretty undirected, so not a scumtell.  I also want to make it clear that I don't find Laggy/Glen's jumping on Yoshi to be unreasonable, as Yoshi's post does have issues."

More Yoshi (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108634.html#msg108634)
I find Yoshi to be steadily improving at this point, and also that he has a good point on Laggy/Glen so I start pressuring Laggy/Glen with questions.  I take another look over SnowFire to see if people have a point, and feel that I don't agree.  To review, my thoughts were:
"need more actual content": Xanth/Zenny/Noyn
"Answer my damn questions": Laggy/Glen
"Still need to read closely and analyze": Ciato/Alice/Carthrat/QR (QR had more content by this point, and it hadn't left a strong impression on me)
"Not pursuing": SnowFire/Yoshi
(With Kilga/Tai acting townie enough to not be on my radar).

Still not moving my post from Xanth (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108649.html#msg108649)
As you'll notice above, SnowFire/Yoshi I wasn't pursuing.  Laggy/Glen I was happy to pressure with questions, and would re-evaluate when he responded.  Xanth had posted a quick defence post, and still had nothing I felt I could evaluate him by; still not happy with Xanth.  Pressure stays there (barring an Alice/Ciato reread that I didn't end up having time for).

Xanth posts (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108664.html#msg108664)
Xanth posts.  I feel that pressure votes should actually be pressure votes, so I drop all other analysis to comb over Xanth.  End up...not ecstatically happy, but satisfied.  In the mean time, I notice it's been two days with zero content from Noyn, I check and he had logged in earlier.  Really don't want to let him get away with that, so I put my vote there.

I fully realized it couldn't really stay there, and needed to go onto one of the trains.  So...ruling out Snowfire, me, Kilga, Tai, Xanth, Yoshi, Noyn for now, this means:
Zenny/Laggy-Glen/Ciato/Alice/Carthrat/QR-Rou

Zenny shows up, and talks sense.  Strike him off.  I honestly didn't want to vote for a replacement 5 hours after they're replaced; give them time to produce content; that eliminates Laggy-Glen and QR-Rou.  Ciato's been flying waaaaay under my radar--actually that makes me a bit uncomfortable; I'll post an analysis of her after this.  Which leaves...

Windup post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108691.html#msg108691)
Pressure Alice with a bunch of things that have been bugging me.  Prepare to go after Carthrat, but make sure I'm not just attacking his playstyle like I was going to attack Zenny for not moving his jokevote.

Post case on Carthrat (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108715.html#msg108715)
I and others had already pointed out the tunneling.  I let others defend my posts (the nature of mafia means other people's opinions of my content are probably more valuable than my own).  Which leaves some of my side observations, alternative theories for Rat's behavior and why I feel I can rule them out.  Also, the SnowFire train...could be nothing, but it's the closest I've seen to player coordination

Oh yeah, question for people saying "It's not much, but metroid composite is the best person to pursue day 1":

If I was scum, do you really think I'd say "that user is acting like he has a guilty cop result on me and I'm not a miller"?  Maybe that would be a desperation scum move, but bear in mind that I was not under much pressure at the time (only one vote on me).


Anyhow, enough about me.  I still haven't fully evaluated Alice, which is bad of me (just from a skim, did not feel good about Alice logic, but I felt the same way about Yoshi from a skim).  Will take a closer look at Ciato as promised.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glen Veil on May 26, 2010, 07:21:26 PM
Alice, my post was accusing you of encouraging discussion that provides nothing but noise.  In this paragraph of your first main post:

Quote
Anyway! Noyn is probably the main person to discuss today: I pretty much agree with Kilga here, I'm not sure it gives a nice swing alignment-wise. Also, because the opening post stated that such events "usually" only lasted one day does not mean that they universally will - and I'm also extremely perplexed at Laggy's behaviour: first he votes me over lurking, while complaining about the Rat train, then he backpedals stating that "oh hey maybe voting Rat to L-2 might be a good idea after all for we get useful information this way!"...um, why, how? It's Day freaking One.

Bolded the relevant first sentence, you suggested we focus our discussion on Noyn, and yet Noyn hasn't posted anything other then his vote being blocked, ergo I come to the conclusion that you're suggesting we pointlessly discuss WIFOM matters regarding why Noyn got vote blocked.  Sure it may be something to consider later, but until we have more role information later on all discussion on this matter does is add unneeded content to sift through for today.  Generating discussion is all fine and dandy, but only when the discussion is useful.  That first sentence alone reads to me like "Hey guys, lets waste our time on something that is absolutely pointless to discuss for today."

Also, there was very little in that post slamming Mc, most of it was in regards to other who I did not give opinions on previously in my first post, which did actually have content against Mc.

Going to contradict myself on my promise to claim since the deadline is apparently soft, I rather not reveal my role if necessary, and a majority of people don't seem to be around anyways.  Going to admit that I thought Alice and Mc were equal on votes not including myself, which was why I switched, but not seeing a reason to go back currently because I'm not really happy with Alice's rebuttal at all.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 26, 2010, 07:25:42 PM
Ack, WoTs incoming.  Around for quick lunch post when I realized that I will almost certainly not be around for deadline unless it gets extended due to talk / Excal being out.

Roukanken, give me a second, will try to return to your post in my next post.

Carthrat's latest post is definitely better.  Thanks for saying outright "no comments = null read" at least.

Vote placement: Still basically happy with leaving vote on Carthrat if it comes to it.  Glen's latest posts have not been reassuring on a skim so would not be overly opposed to a Laggy/Glen lynch at this point, despite kneejerking Town-Laggy earlier.  Am still feeling kneejerk Town-MC...  or at least "null read MC-MC" so would be opposed to an MC lynch...  though I need to parse mc's latest post more carefully.  I see what you're trying to say MC, but be warned that a lot of this looks like "Wine in Front of Me" arguments.  Would scum do action X?  Well, maybe not normally, but if everyone thinks that, then maybe scum will do it to look towny.  Etc.  Could maybe be convinced by an Alice lynch as well, would have to reread.  Also Noyn where are you.

Since if I want to move my vote I probably have to move it now, will post again shortly by end of break to either confirm Rat vote or move it elsewhere.

Glen ninja.  Hmm.  Interesting.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 07:48:50 PM
MC: Please don't be playing the "If I were scum" card, it's a bunch of WIFOM, and to answer your question in particular, yes, I think you might say that, just so you could point at it later and ask why you would do it. (Cut by SnowFire who agrees.)

Also I'll come out and say that I don't believe Rat has been low content, volume != content and basically everything he's said has been meaningful. There are plenty of players that don't believe in talking about people about which they have nothing to say, that's a playstyle choice, not a scumtell, and as such I don't buy the tunneling charge from anyone that brought it up.

Can't really begrudge anyone voting MC at this point, even if I don't want to. At this point her flip will not surprise me no matter what it is.

Yoshi: My problem with you was that Laggy claimed he had no other cases at the time because he had a bunch of outside distractions and you voted him for dropping his vote anyway. It felt both really lazy and needlessly antagonistic - you could have just sat back and waited for him to get past said distractions and make a new case, and bust him later if he went a good period of time without doing so - and the only reason I didn't push you further on it was because Laggy's reaction was terrible. Other than that I've had no real problem with you; to be honest, I've barely noticed that you (and Snow) have even been playing. >_>

Wish to see where the new Alice/Glen argument goes before I remove my Glen vote. Initially I felt Glen's vote for Alice uninspiring to the point of lazy LAL, but Alice's response did indeed skip over a pretty important thing, even if I think he might be slightly overblowing it based on how I read the overall flow of Alice's post (but that's Alice's case to make) so I want to see a proper response to that. I will also throw out a question for Alice: What makes you lump Glen into the "completely clueless noob" category and not MC?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 07:51:15 PM
even if I think he might be slightly overblowing it based on how I read the overall flow of Alice's post

Realizing this might be confusing. The "he" is Glen, not Alice, and this says that I feel Glen might be overblowing how bad Alice's comments on Noyn were. (But, again, that's Alice's case to make.)
Title: Dullahan Heartcatch Railgun
Post by: Xanth on May 26, 2010, 08:00:19 PM
Right. I said I'd be back for this evening, and here I am. Couldn't really do anything during lunch, but did at least get to read a bit. I need to get dinner, but before I disappear for that, the immediately important opinions regarding the current vote standings:

It tears at me to condemn a man for the sins of the father, especially quite so early on, even with the relatively strong feeling I was building from Laggy. That said, if the other options are Metroid and Rat then my hand is forced regardless.

I'll take another look at the arguments against Rat, but of all of the players he's the one I've found myself agreeing with the most and seriously doubt I'll see the merit in his lynch.

I've already made it clear that I get an unaided newbie read from Metroid, although would swap my vote if it would save Rat. I'll need to read the latest material before I can say for sure, but my brewing concern is in over-playing the hapless newbie card the instant it started to push votes away. May be off the mark, though, let me actually digest the posts before I get back on that.

But let's see if it's worth starting a new train or not as well. Last minute pile ups are always fun, right?


Whatever happens, let's be careful not to end the day with a tie, what with Hatbotting rather than Sudden Death. There'll be thumbs to break if we leave it to random chance.



Of completely random note, I'm getting a little weirded out by how much Kilga's been agreeing with me. No, not making an alignment observation out of that. Just weird. Anyway, dinner then deadline.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: SnowFire on May 26, 2010, 08:01:34 PM
Rou: Seriously, are you trying to agree with him or disagree with him? (re: Laggy's Alice LaL vote)

I was talking about something I thought was interesting and then explaining why it was still a null tell to me.  It was *very* early Day 1 without much content to legitimately talk about.

As for Rat and lynching philosophy you're exaggerating my position and we both know it.  Think I was already pretty clear on my actual stance on this.

Also ugh time flies.

---
Laggy / Glen just shot to the top of the scumdar for obvious reasons to anyone who knows conditional probability, scum should almost always claim a powerful role if about to be lynched Day 1, so if we have say 2 townie power roles + 3 scum that looks bad.  On the other hand not comfortable with voting Glen blind without actually seeing the claim and deciding how plausible it is.  Uh, I guess I'll trust those around for deadline to assess this properly.

Still not happy with Alice, but unsure if this is even a viable train even if I decide he's worse than Rat.  Glen's call-out of the Noyn point is good, IIRC we'd pretty well exhausted that speculation by the time Alice made that post, and it does look like he might be encouraging spinning our wheels further.

Hrmm, think it's between Alice & Rat for me.  On second thought, the Rat lynch may be less viable than it looks at current, not sure I've seen much support for it beyond MC / Zenny.  (Xanth ninja: My intuition was correct here?)  So I think I actually will switch to Alice.  Urgh, I wish I had time to go back and reread him properly, but I don't, so this is something of a gut vote I'm afraid.  Just plain don't find his cases very plausible except maybe the one against Glen.

##UNVOTE: Carthrat
##VOTE: Alice
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 26, 2010, 08:08:12 PM
The hourglass had almost flipped the contents of its sand completely. Sasarai's adjutant stared at it dimly. In just a few more hours...

"Sir." He scraped his throat, and turned to Sasarai. "The current state of affairs is as follows... but are you sure about this?"

Day 1 Votecount

Alice (2): Cyril, Quietrain, Metroid, Glen, Snowfire
Carthrat (2): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire, Zenny, Metroid
Glen (4): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga, Carthrat
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (1): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (0): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (2): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice, Glen, Roukanken, Alice
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (0): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (1): Cyril, Ciato
Snowfire (0): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

Not Voting: Noyn

13 chumps remain, so 7 must band together!

It is 3 hours until the hourglass runs out of sand. Of course, as long as you entertain lord Blight there is no problem.
I will be around for deadline, so there should be no irregularities there.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glen Veil on May 26, 2010, 08:18:36 PM
@Snow

It's not that I don't want to claim my role because it's powerful and would make me vulnerable, it's more so revealing my power pretty much makes it more unhelpful then it already is, to the point of uselessness if that makes any sense.

I'll just go ahead and softclaim that it's a targeted role which success rate is inversely correlated with how many players are left, in that more players = less chance of it working theoretically.  Also once revealed it will have absolutely zero positive merit to it if scum are the least bit smart.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Alice on May 26, 2010, 09:01:56 PM
Oh, come on now Glen, you can't seriously be stating that a single short paragraph in my opening game post that basically was to the effect of "yeah, I agree with Kilga, the Noynsense is pretty much closed for now" is somehow an attempt to restart discussion around him? Seriously? I will admit my opening sentence was sort of badly worded, but you can see from reading, y'know, the rest of that paragraph, that there's not much more to discuss here.

Dislike you playing the cherry-picking-gotcha-games instead of Scumhunting, btw.

@Kilga: I'm not seeing what thing I skipped over in Glen's post at all. Unless I'm misreading both your post and your clarification post >_> As for the latter, correct me if I'm wrong here but I was under the assumption that m_c was, at one point, a regular player here. Even ignoring that point, their mistakes are different: Glen's are just over-the-top in-general awful, m_c's are more trying to sneak by with minimal content and failing. I guess I suppose I could see m_c as a somewhat clueless newbie with a strange posting style, but even then, a bunch of things don't add up.

Bleh, won't be back until about 30 minutes before deadline, should hopefully decide on a final decision regarding m_c and Glen by then.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 09:13:35 PM
Quote
I see what you're trying to say MC, but be warned that a lot of this looks like "Wine in Front of Me" arguments.  Would scum do action X?  Well, maybe not normally, but if everyone thinks that, then maybe scum will do it to look towny.

That's fair.  Mostly I wanted to clarify my positions at each point in the day, that, for instance, most of my attacks for the rest of the day were actually set up by the summary post, and my reactions to the SnowFire train.

And...personally I worry less about people who get themselves in the crosshairs (if they're scum, they'll hang themselves eventually) and more about people who just pass completely under the radar.  Speaking of, my Ciato analysis

Ciato

"Let's not focus on Noyn" - good.
"Laggy/Tai/Yoshi umm...headaches.  LAL is an easy way to be lazy." - nothing here to work with.
"Laggy, Tai, and Yoshi read fairly neutrally" - Hmm...roughly the same as my opinion at the time, with Tai a bit above neutral.
"SnowFire's jump on and off of Rat during jokevote phase is really questionable, and case on Laggy is frivolous." - kinda weak, actually--doesn't comment on SnowFire's most recent post at the time, points to jokephase stuff.  And...why SnowFire over Xanth, whom Ciato doesn't mention?
"QR just lurker jumping = null read." - nothing here to work with.
"MC has given the most town vibes." - Given Ciato knows how I think...I can see it.

Post #2

"Wtf Yoshi attack on SnowFire, and SnowFire train building" - Yeah, I attacked both of these myself.
"MC reporter charges are BS" - Agree >_>
"Yoshi is constantly trying to stick charges" - Hmm...quick skim over Yoshi's posts...
Alice/Kilga/Tai read best to me so far. Laggy > SnowFire > QR > Zenny/MC for worst, methinks.
The list of worst suspects isn't so unreasonable outside of SnowFire as his #2.  Wait...what the hell?  Yoshi: why did Alice read as the most town to you?  W.T.F.?
"Rat does not impress" - Agree.
"Xanth makes good points" - Mmm...neutral on this; wasn't super happy about Xanth's points.
"QR needs to appear" - consistent pressure, and agreed
"Need to reread Laggy" - ok
"Stop the LAL talk" - agree, had been saying myself.

I find myself agreeing with her a lot, which is good, but partially because she's repeating stuff I or others have already said, which is bad.  She pushes us away from discussions that were distracting at that point (LAL, rolespeculation on Noyn).  I'm feeling quite a bit less happy about her case on SnowFire than I did on first read (zero mention of Xanth who did something similar, despite brief comments on several in the same post).  Yoshi case...hmm, I'm not sure.  Might have to reread Yoshi.

Also, she needs to show up and move her vote.  And I'd like to hear her thoughts on Alice's actual posts, whom she curiously doesn't comment on despite comments on most other people that were acting weird.

Feeling a fair bit less comfortable about her now, and would really like to see another post.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on May 26, 2010, 09:35:32 PM
I've been pretty spacy and under content this game... unfortunately I find Day 1 ridiculously boring and I try my hardest to force myself to participate but yeah, it's difficult for me~

I am basically going to directly oppose an mc lynching period. I will look at her harder in future days but her mistakes feel clearly like a new person's mistakes and I am annoyed at the misconstruction trying to make her look like a villain.

I think when you get thrown into a game a couple days in that cherry picking is alright, so meh.

Uhhh... I still don't like Yoshi very much but it seems clear that I am the only person who thinks so. I will think about who I like least of Alice/Glen/whoever.

I think that both Laggy and Glen have played a little suspiciously, but Alice is his usual neverpresent self as well as me disagreeing with almost everything he's said so far. I don't really like Alice's tone at all in the last post, but I can't justify why. It just feels like he is trying really hard to put people in a negative light? I'm not certain. I think I like Alice less overall than Glen.

Uh, being summoned back to work, may not be back before deadline~

##UNVOTE: Yoshi
##VOTE: Alice
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 09:40:07 PM
Alice: The thing to which I referred was the statement Glen bolded, that Noyn was "probably the main person to discuss today". That being said, you brought up the reason I felt Glen was overblowing it a bit; you quickly agreed with me and then moved on to something else entirely before the paragraph was even half-over. Disagree with Snowfire's assessment that Noyn discussion was "pretty well exhausted"; I had only just made my Votelessness Syndrome post roughly an hour prior, so I don't begrudge Alice wanting to get his opinion in there.

Xanth: I tend to agree with people I think are right. I do this to Rat a lot on Day 1 too, I think he just takes it in stride at this point. If you really want me too, though, I can invite Axem Red back into the game. >_>

Cut by Ciato, getting this out and then reading that.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 09:41:14 PM
Okay, semi-low on time, this reread focused on the four vote leaders - Alice/Rat/Glen/MC.

I've commented on MC multiple times. Basically I'm reading and still reading it as newbie town, think the case is more fabricated against her than is actually present. Eliminating as such from the list...

Rat: Skipping pages 2/3, sorry but those are mostly irrev. Posts this page 4 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108608.html#msg108608). See, I think MC's getting badly twisted by Kilga/Rat here: the initial Xanth vote was for clarification, when pressed she said she was willing to keep it there at that time for x reasons, people interp'd x reasons as the reasons she voted originally, which badly doesn't seem to be the actual case. Kilga's a bit more guilty of this one, Carthrat's more reasonable. Page 5 post  here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108733.html#msg108733), mainly defense against MC/rebuttal for three paragraphs, and then a one page quick diversion on other suspicious individuals before going for LaggyGlen.

Alice: First post is page 4 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108603.html#msg108603)! And it's pretty much entirely catchup, although he does call Kilga out for the Zenthor vote which was a move I supported in a later post (full disclosure and all). The other note? Voting MC for reporteriness... which doesn't really address the MC case on Yoshiken. Right. Two posts later swaps, though, over to SnowFire for the weirdness in his own Laggy vote, and while it's pit nicks I can't say I'm not guilty there either. Returns page 6, need to reread but no real complaints on a skim.

Glen/Laggy:

As Laggy, votes Alice during jokevote phase for lurkering, sticks to vote and justifies based on this having been a scum tactic for him (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108505.html#msg108505) (referencing, I do believe, MotK games where Alice has lurkscummed heavily before). Notes Rat has shown up unlike Alice, but hasn't said anything further down in page 2. Does some mild responding in page 3 including the unvote of Rat, votes Yoshi for contrariness. here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108571.html#msg108571), then Glen subs in, votes for MC here. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108727.html#msg108727) Feels like the vote misses the point of what MC noted about SnowFire's callout of Rat, posts page 6 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108769.html#msg108769) with a paragraph and then "uhhh I guess I don't have as much as I thought, abandon target!" And goes for Alice. And... there's been a mess but it's all on this page, you can read.

Rereading, I would also support a Yoshi lynch - feels like he's been pushing attacks aggressively on multiple people with very little backing (MC, Laggy, myself some) and while he's engaged some of those concerns I'm not terribly liking what I'm seeing (using the standby "you're just prodding for anything!" on Laggy (though this was defended well later, it was still used with little backing initially which makes me leery of letting him loose on that), backing off and admitting MC did provide opinions when I pressed even if he tried to cage it, then proceeding to misrepresent me by saying I'd had no strong stances).

(NINJA: Yeah, also noticed Ciatosilence, really wanna hear more there. Was getting not much to nothing from what I was reading but was mainly absent on and off the past few days so. NINJAX2 Hi Ciato no you aren't really alone but. Also understand busy! Also wanna hear more~!)

So, for now and since I should make a stand on the candidates put forward,

##UNVOTE: Xanth
##VOTE: Laggy/Glen Veil


I'm still not confident on this (hey I'm not taking a strong stand Yoshi?!?) but of the current people I'm favoring him over Alice/Rat/MC. I should reread Alice, but. For now, gonna take a short break, will be around on-off for most of the time up to deadline if not all the time.
Title: Truffle Vine Fountain
Post by: Xanth on May 26, 2010, 09:58:26 PM
Taishyr: I'm not really sure what else to say other than to agree to disagree. The cherry picking, however, is elementary: using the metagaming that backed his case while conveniently ignoring the meta that contradicted it. Very simple, very bad. The reaction to this being pointed out being to basically just drop the meta reasoning as if it never existed just makes it worse. You're supposed to mold your case to fit the evidence, not mold the evidence to fit the case, and town has no reason to be doing the latter (yes it happens often enough, usually from tunnelling, OMGUS or the like, but this was nothing like that). Alarm bells! Alarm bells!

Metroid reviewing Metroid is kind of getting beyond silly. I've no clue what that's even supposed to be for, other than for positive reinforcement, which is again scum-leaning. Quite the lean at that, even ignoring the obvious silly WIFOM stuff. It's like an immediate question as to how much can the newbie card be pushed before my vote needs to go down.

Alice's 'scum by statistics' is utter bollocks and a weird thing to stick to (you may as well generate an arbitrary set of four people not including yourself and assume that one of them is scum (yes I'm assuming three scum, not that it's affected anything I've done yet)), but don't have the same reaction to the aggressiveness that's coming out elsewhere, as it's fairly standard Alice by my mark.

...

Urgh, getting horribly distracted here. Let's get this out before another ten posts beat it into the thread. I'd certainly be happier with an Alice lynch than a Metroid or Rat lynch, but I'm not really feeling the need for a last minute wobble with LagGlen out in front.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glen Veil on May 26, 2010, 10:01:48 PM
It's not like I've completely dismissed Mc, it's just that it's lively to just be newbie mistakes, and the only way to get better is to get more then a day's worth of playtime each game.

Considering how the only other people I really felt suspicious of at the time were Noyn, who can be put off, and Alice, for that lone sentence that I may have hyper focused on a bit. (Even if it's a typo, man does it read badly to me)  However, really not happy with the rebuttle, since it seemed to focus more on denouncing me rather then pointing out that it was worded poorly, which only came after others agreed about it how it looked less then desirable.

Anyways, time to claim, FE7 Mathew, my power is each night I can convince one person they owe me a favor, and prevent them from targeting me with a night action.  Laggy did not use this power n0.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 26, 2010, 10:03:08 PM
The Harmonian encampment was merry, for most of the men had begun feasting on dinner.

A select few were isolated, staring blankly at a map Sasarai had had his adjutant spread out before them.

The numbers were confusing.

Day 1 Votecount

Alice (3): Cyril, Quietrain, Metroid, Glen, Snowfire, Ciato
Carthrat (2): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire, Zenny, Metroid
Glen (5): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga, Carthrat, Taitoro
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (0): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (0): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (2): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice, Glen, Roukanken, Alice
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (0): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (0): Cyril, Ciato
Snowfire (0): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

Not Voting: Noyn

With a lucky 13 contenders aiming for the grand prize, it'll take 7 votes to elect a wi--wait, I got that wrong...
With an unlucky 13 contenders for lynch, it'll take 7 votes to condemn someone.

There is one hour remaining in the day. If there is still discussion after an hour, the deadline will be extended by fifteen minutes until either there is a lynch target, or conversation has stifled.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 10:06:25 PM
I...don't really get Ciato's case on Alice. I'm going to assume the "usual neverpresent self" line is tongue-in-cheek given the circumstances (Alice currently participating, Ciato not being very active at all herself, earlier establishment that LurkerAlice is a null Alice tell), so we'll ignore it and move on.

What I would like to know, however, is what specific things you disagree with Alice on, Ciato. Obviously asking for a full list of all the tiny details is not very nice, but I'd still like to know the main issues on which you feel he is in the wrong.

Ciato's whole case reads as her only trying to convince herself that Alice is worth a vote instead of trying to sell the case to everyone else, to be honest. Maybe she doesn't care if other people buy into her case or not? Dunrlyknow. I kinda want to vote this when combining it with QR's lack of "oopmh" behind her votes while she was playing but it might just be standard Ciato play and I don't think a Ciato train would take at this point anyway. Still not a fan, though.

What Ciato's vote does do for me, combined with the other votes there, is make me wary of the Alice train. It's coming entirely from either people or reasons I don't particularly trust and feels like a potential end-of-day dash-to-a-lurker train. The circumstances surrounding the train do not endear me to the idea of taking part.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 10:16:00 PM
Also, Glen claim noted. Doesn't sway me one way or the other.
Title: Glass Oar Personification
Post by: Xanth on May 26, 2010, 10:19:00 PM
Kilga: well, truth be told that's partially why I've been suspicious of the Rat train, and the Alice train less so. (what's QR got to do with Ciato? Rou replaced QR)

Having said that, the way the lynch is approaching isn't filling me with much hope for scumLagGlen, now I look at it. Not much of a rush to save or damn him for bonus points. Late day stagnation is rarely with a scum at the top.

I'm considering options out of right field to second guess this, but can't / have yet to settle on anyone looking scummy enough to try and rush. Thoughts?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 10:28:40 PM
Oh derp, yeah, I have no idea what I was thinking with the Ciato/QR thing. My bad, remove that "point" against her.

A dark horse candidate? Can't think of one, really. Yoshi, Snow and Zenny are the names that come to mind because they're the ones I'm most neutral on, but I don't have an actual case on any of them right now so I'm not prepared to push them. Maybe a Ciato push because of the out-of-nowhere potential bandwagonhop but I don't know how much of why I think badly of her was because of the QR fuckup and I think I'd want to see a flip first before deciding whether or not she's really worth pursuing.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 10:33:57 PM
Glen claim noted as well, I'm... not terribly moved. This being said I note Xanth's observation and do also agree with some bitterness; I'm not inclined to switch off solely due to meta reasoning, but at the same time it's concerning me that this has stagnated at this point (maybe just due to the timing of the deadline? I don't know). Additionally I'm not terribly convinced just yet on any other leading case.

I could be convinced on Yoshi or Ciato if others around are willing to agree on a move; Yoshi for reasons above, Ciato for absence/lurking. Of the two, I'd move Yoshi, and wait to see if Ciato's legendary hatred of day 1 does indeed fade on day 2, and if so, fade into what - but yeah, can't not support Ciato here either.

And for the record, still not terribly fond of Xanth but that's likely to fly next to never at this point based on the record thus far, and it might just be viewpoint miss. So.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 10:35:47 PM
... and even after editing the line three times I still dislike the way it reads.

I'm not inclined to switch off solely due to meta reasoning, <-- I'm not inclined to switch away from Glen simply because of Xanth's reasoning that it's rare for a scum lynch D1 to stagnate, all else considered.

Apologies, that bugged me on a reread of my own post.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 10:36:50 PM
Okay, I really ought to comment on Alice as it's one of the major trains.

the Rat train built excessively rapidly, and, unless Excal's even more of a bastard mod than Snow is, not everyone on that wagon is going to be Scum

Illogical noise.  I see zero connection between bastard moddery and people forming an early train.

Quote
not to mention that quickhammers have occured here in the past - so I fail to see why it would necessitate Scum to have "guts" to try to cram such a thing through

Taking the stance that D1 quicklynch from L-3 actually is a serious threat.  (Universally agreed the opposite by all other players, even Zenny by that point; trying to re-start the argument?)

Quote
Anyway! Noyn is probably the main person to discuss today: I pretty much agree with Kilga here, I'm not sure it gives a nice swing alignment-wise. Also, because the opening post stated that such events "usually" only lasted one day does not mean that they universally will

Pushing Noyn speculation, AND reportering on the "OMG 2 days" thing that had already been pointed out by 2 people.

Quote
- and I'm also extremely perplexed at Laggy's behaviour: first he votes me over lurking, while complaining about the Rat train, then he backpedals stating that "oh hey maybe voting Rat to L-2 might be a good idea after all for we get useful information this way!"...um, why, how? It's Day freaking One.

Two complete misrepresentations here.  Laggy complained about Zenny's overreaction to the Rat train.  And when he voted for Rat, it was for the lurker reason, and it put rat at L-6 not L-2.



Alice's second post I've covered in the past; pretty weak jumping on SnowFire, and I don't know how you post two paragraphs about two sentences.


Third post:
Quote
I assumed that Scum were on the Rat jokevote train from a simple statistics argument, come on here, people, given a wagon that builds that rapidly and that easily, there is almost certainly at least one Scum on it simply because there are a nontrivial amount of Scum in the game to begin with, and it's exceedingly likely that one of them decided that hopping onto Rat was a good idea.

Purely statistically?  Assuming 3 scum/13 players:
mc/Tai/Snow perspective: 42% chance.  
outsider perspective: 58% chance.

Scum "exceedingly likely" decide to jump on?  Even if I though jumping on was a smart scum strategy, it's WIFOM at best.

Quote
Glen's latest post is awful

Don't agree.  Actually, Glen is looking fairly good to me right now (certainly better than Laggy did) and I'm getting a little uncomfortable that last I looked at the scoreboard a Laggy/Glen lynch is looking most likely.

Quote
No, I wasn't voting Snow for wishy-washiness, I was voting him for agreeing with Rat's post, then throwing its content out because of (and I quote) "meh", and then voting Rat for no appreciable reason.

When did...SnowFire EVER agree with Rat?  SnowFire is pro-early-LAL (disagrees with Rat) and feels that my summary post actually has a fair bit of content (disagrees with Rat).

Quote
Lern2read. Your entire post is awful, all of your opinions read like something along the lines of "maybe X but also perhaps Y and perchance also Z really I'm not sure now come to think of it". Also - you spend most of your post slamming m_c, and then vote me over...two lines complaining that you disagreed with my reasons for voting Snow (which you also got wrong, see above). Le what, monsieur?

Somewhat tempted to actually vote him if it weren't for the fact that it all comes off far more as "completely clueless noob" than someone actually Scummy.

Wall of text that at-best reports and at-worst misrepresents.  (And flaming).  Calls Glen incompetent (as an easy way to dismiss the argument) when I'm not getting that vibe at all.

Quote
Oh, come on now Glen, you can't seriously be stating that a single short paragraph in my opening game post that basically was to the effect of "yeah, I agree with Kilga, the Noynsense is pretty much closed for now" is somehow an attempt to restart discussion around him? Seriously? I will admit my opening sentence was sort of badly worded, but you can see from reading, y'know, the rest of that paragraph, that there's not much more to discuss here.

A simple "whoops that was badly worded" would have sufficed; paragraph!

Quote
correct me if I'm wrong here but I was under the assumption that m_c was, at one point, a regular player here.

Nope, this is my first mafia game, as I have mentioned in some of my posts so...it's a little surprising you're unaware of it (oh, Laggy also mentioned it, and Laggy/Glen is your other top target).



Mmmmm...I really, really don't like the writing style of Alice's posts.  Responding to it, I feel like I'm...to quote Alice, "playing gotcha games", but the posts are written in such a way that I find them hard to respond to without playing gotcha games.  Alice's "content"...half of it is easy to verify as incorrect.

Okay, sec, going to see how many NINJAs I have...10!

Hmm...I'll read over those in a sec; major trains seem to be Alice and Glen, and as previously mentioned I'm actually liking Glen's current content a lot more than Laggy (who was only minorly negative).

##Vote: Alice
Title: Drop Fastener Bounty
Post by: Xanth on May 26, 2010, 10:38:45 PM
I'm unwilling to go for Ciato. Fairly general principal working from the risk of losing a major town player if wrong, and I'm not nearly sure enough here.

I could be up for Yoshi, though. Give me a bit to re-read.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 10:43:07 PM
Okay mmm thinking myself and relooking over my vote. Votecount, please?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 10:43:48 PM
... Sorry, I misthought last votecount was on page 6. I can count the votes easily myself from here. -_-; toro.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glen Veil on May 26, 2010, 10:44:05 PM
Feeling pretty much resigned to getting lynched at this point, of course I would be happy to move the vote elsewhere if it would save my skin but doubt it's happening.

Not particularly understanding the logic of feeling that I'm town due to stagnation, yet at the same time still being distrustful of potential Alice/Mc trains.  Not seeing the logic in thinking scum would push them if people also feel that I'm town.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 10:47:33 PM
Anyways, time to claim, FE7 Mathew, my power is each night I can convince one person they owe me a favor, and prevent them from targeting me with a night action.  Laggy did not use this power n0.

I...what?  Okay, scratch what I said about feeling uncomfortable on a Glen lynch.  Why would you not use this power night 0?  I mean, why not use it night 0, just so that someone else could confirm your power if you needed to claim?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 26, 2010, 10:48:30 PM
"Tea, sir?"

Sasarai looked up from his papers and nodded.

"I suppose it would be nice to have a drink when it begins."

Day 1 Votecount

Alice (4): Cyril, Quietrain, Metroid, Glen, Snowfire, Ciato, Metroid
Carthrat (1): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire, Zenny, Metroid
Glen (5): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga, Carthrat, Taitoro
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (0): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (0): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (2): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice, Glen, Roukanken, Alice
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (0): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (0): Cyril, Ciato
Snowfire (0): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

Not Voting: Noyn

There are 13 alive, so 7 votes are needed to lynch.

There are twelve minutes remaining in the day.


Metroid, please ##UNVOTE before voting! I counted your vote this time but it makes it easier, so please keep it in mind for future reference.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 10:50:51 PM
Glen: Logic being that scum have no reason to rush and try to alter the lynch one way or another for a town, but may want to play up a scum lynch train one way or another.

Doing a quick Alice reread, I had been satisfied with a skim but I really shouldn't have been. Holding mods to the soft deadline since I wanna finish that at least.

NINJA: Decent point by MC. Though... knowing there's no killing roles acting N0, why bother? Cop, other possible minor influential roles one way or another, but there's not any reason to muddy things up for one, and for two some roles may directly help clear or benefit LaggyGlen, so... mmm. Actually I think I can see why that'd not be used N0.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Carthrat on May 26, 2010, 10:51:11 PM
Current votecount seems agreeable to me, unable to really go through things on a significant level right now. I am unable to really process a case on Alice at the moment (and the people on it seem to have trouble really identifying issues with him I can easily understand anyway) and prefer the Glen lynch.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 10:52:02 PM
If I had that role I wouldn't have used it N0 either, It's more likely to hit a town power than a scum power on a numbers level alone.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glen Veil on May 26, 2010, 10:54:07 PM
Anyways, time to claim, FE7 Mathew, my power is each night I can convince one person they owe me a favor, and prevent them from targeting me with a night action.  Laggy did not use this power n0.

I...what?  Okay, scratch what I said about feeling uncomfortable on a Glen lynch.  Why would you not use this power night 0?  I mean, why not use it night 0, just so that someone else could confirm your power if you needed to claim?

Can't be positive since I'm not laggy, but I assume he felt like potentially blocking a cop from discovering his alignment is a bad tradeoff for the offshot of actually targeting a scum that targeted him back.  My honest impression of the ability is that getting good use out of it would require the luck of the lottery.

Ninjad and explained, posting anyways, and @ Tai, I guess that kind of makes sense? eh, don't follow 100% though.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 11:00:07 PM
kkkkch garrrrgh. Decision time, toro, so I need to make up my mind

why can't someone just pull a goddamn middleman and help me figure this out

mrgh. Okay, rereading, not as pleased with Alice but also not seeing him as villainous, nrgh also not seeing Glen now that I've done this reread because his issues have been reasonable.

We have the soft deadline guys, can I convince people to move to Yoshiken please? I will start the move. We need four, if Glen/Xanth are willing to move + one more.

##UNVOTE: Laggy/Glen
##VOTE: Yoshiken


I hope I am correct on this, but I cannot on my reread currently place either Alice or Glen as all that scummy
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 26, 2010, 11:04:40 PM
Alright folks.  I have returned.  And with my return we have extra hours.

Kefka and Luca are now officially getting bored, and as soon as meaningful discussion (or entertainment, as they define it, not you) ceases for 15 minutes, day ends.

Proper vote count as soon as I get mine updated.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 11:06:17 PM
I would need to read Yoshi over again in order to feel like I could properly vote for him, and I'm currently preoccupied so it will have to wait, sorry.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 11:09:28 PM
I am unable to really process a case on Alice at the moment (and the people on it seem to have trouble really identifying issues with him I can easily understand anyway)

Okay, having just done a thorough reread of Alice...can anybody point to something of Alice's they feel is good content?  Because I can't.  Alice's actual attacks are...

"mc is reportery"--Alice was what...the fifth person to say this?  How original, and risky!
"SnowFire doing X"--where X is not what SnowFire did.
And some comments on people he doesn't vote for, like "Glen is bad, but just a completely clueless noob" (not really seeing the noobishness).

Okay, seems like there's a last minute push to Yoshiken; will review.
Title: Animal Phlegm Current
Post by: Xanth on May 26, 2010, 11:12:22 PM
Still distracted and still re-reading.

A little uncomfortable without back up on the move as we're currently in Hatbot realms and my move would put Alice out in front, which is rather defeatist.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 11:14:20 PM
kchmm. Yeah, the move would require people to agree on it which doesn't sound like it's going to happen, so I need to decide between Alice and Glen, give me a minute.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 11:14:40 PM
though if people still want it to happen don't let me stop them!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 11:17:13 PM
Obvious but I want to put it out there anyway; if people decide they want to hang Alice instead, let's at least wait for his claim first.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 11:18:36 PM
(Also going back to read Yoshi to give me something to do, just in case that does end up taking. My mind is most likely not going to change on Glen vs. Alice barring someone else providing an important revelation.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glen Veil on May 26, 2010, 11:19:24 PM
Pretty much thinking along the same lines as Xanth there, moving my vote right now is a pretty bad idea for me, not to mention not entirely comfortable with switching to Yoshi with the discussion currently consisting of "I don't really want to see either of those two go, so lets all switch to this person without thorough reasoning because we're all too pressured to be doing a complete thorough reread of that person."

Even if me and Xanth both agreed to move, that just puts us in three way tie land.

Ninjad by Kil, I'm not sure if we would be able to keep the thread alive long enough for that, though I'm not certain about Alice's schedule so can't say.  Are day 1 extensions possible?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 11:23:49 PM
...asdfucking F. I really don't think I'm wrong on Glen, I don't want to move back on now that I've reread and I'm not yet willing to move to Alice

Kilga ninja, I'm not sure we have the time, are we adequately entertaining? Hell, I don't damn well know. Frankly right now my vote is likely to move to Alice even though I don't think I'm wrong on my read there either. Damnit, would rather Yoshiken but...
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 26, 2010, 11:25:49 PM
As Kefka and Luca continue to study the dark texts with which to summon Nyarlahatbot, a lackey posts the following.

Day 1 Votes

Alice (4): Cyril, Quietrain, Metroid, Glen, Snowfire, Ciato, Metroid
Carthrat (1): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire, Zenny, Metroid
Glen (4): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga, Carthrat, Taishyr
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (0): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (1): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (1): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice, Glen, Roukanken
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (0): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (1): Cyril, Ciato, Taishyr
Snowfire (1): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

No Vote: Noyn

It takes 7 votes to kill.

Time is extended...  Be entertaining, or else.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 11:28:01 PM
Glen ninja I didn't bother reading at first, no extensions are likely possible but we seem to be at least somewhat entertaining. If Alice is here he's up on the block. I don't like this decision.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Roukanken on May 26, 2010, 11:28:28 PM
So in the end, it comes down to Glen vs. Alice, with Yoshi as an apparent third-runner. Not seeing anything from Alice beyond being Alice (especially since the point about 'one member of this wagon is probably scum' has been misrepped as 'hurr durr hard probability' (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108804.html#msg108804) in order to make the case work. (On that note, MC, WIFOM does not work that way seriously.)

Seeing nothing wrong in particular with Yoshi, either, so requesting the right to hammer Glen right now.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 11:33:16 PM
Yoshi so far...first couple posts I don't get much read out of.  Third post points out the issue with Laggy/Glen that actually got me looking for him (and was what Yoshi was trying to say earlier, but I misinterpreted the first two posts).

Reasonable Noyn/QR pressure; I approve.

The not being on the SnowFire train...is kinda questionable; Yoshi declared Snow his #2 suspect.  Didn't actually vote, sure, but....

Quote
Ciato attacks me for the SnowFire train which I was never on. I said he was suspicious for promising content and not delivering, which MC pointed out the times on, so I took that part back (although dismissing Rat's post entirely was still bad.) I am in no way supporting a SnowFire lynch today, and I have no idea why this has gained so much attention. (This is also funny, since Ciato says she basically disagrees with everything I said, yet the previous post... mostly agreed with what I said. hah.)

Umm...okay, Yoshi goes very turtle here, and says something that based on my Ciato reread I think misrepresents Ciato.  Mmmm....that's interesting.

Hmm...I could maybe be talked into a Yoshi voteswitch.  It's a lot of defencive when the pressure hasn't been too hard on him, and he actually complains that he wants people to clarify their cases on him so that he can defend more.  (Yeah, hypocritical because I have a defence post of my own, but I figure that's okay since I have analysis posts on everyone else too >_>).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Roukanken on May 26, 2010, 11:35:02 PM
Okay, screw it, apparently this doesn't count as a proper hammer but it's the best lynch I'll get today.

##Unvote: MC
Vote: Glen Veil


Apologies for hastiness, but this was a last-minute check and I wasn't expecting to see two whole pages of new content.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 11:35:53 PM
(Yeah, hypocritical because I have a defence post of my own, but I figure that's okay since I have analysis posts on everyone else too >_>).

Note: this is meant as comedic hyperbole.  (I'm missing about 5 people I think).
Title: Bacon Cake Lubricant
Post by: Xanth on May 26, 2010, 11:37:01 PM
Tired.

So much for my plan.

I can't back a swap to Yoshiken. He doesn't come out even remotely as bad as at least Laggy of LagGlen. Is it supposed to be some sort of cunning level of lurking? Because I guess I've mostly forgotten the guy exists in the game, but can't say I find the details terrible. Not that I've really discussed any of that. Ugh.

Rou: it's not a hammer vote, so sure. We're not in sudden death or anything. I'm in Kilga's camp of wariness on the Alice train, but the top thing to avoid is getting Hatbotted out of a proper paper trail.

Ninja: Oh okay.

Then another ninja. I can see where this is going.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Alice on May 26, 2010, 11:38:41 PM
Back now, could we please get a votecount? Somewhat less iffy about a Glen lynch right now, but would still prefer m_c, Ciato, why do you diametrically oppose a lynch of m_c anyway? Because I'm not seeing how her actions fit more towards "stupid mistakes a newbie would make" and not just standard scummy mistakes, still.

Anyway, getting caught up. Will claim if I must.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Taishyr on May 26, 2010, 11:40:26 PM
Ugh. Okay. My eyes are literally crossing, I can't focus enough to continue. If Rou wants to hammer Glen, hammer. I'm... okay put bluntly I was running off a generally decent Laggy read plus getting BelAir instead of Planet vibes from Glen, but I don't know. Time to roll the dice.

I will say that I also stand by lynching Glen as at least the most tolerable choice here but that's not saying much. And... just for the sake of this.

##UNVOTE: Yoshiken
##VOTE: Laggy/Glen Veil


Action to match words. and now to pass out.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Alice on May 26, 2010, 11:42:38 PM
Also, playstyle issue, but are ninja trains like mine and Yoshiken's a routine thing here on this site? Because it seems hardly fair to do a deadline pileup on someone who basically has next-to-no-room to defend themselves when there were also at least two major trains D1 that are being abandoned in favour of such a deadline pileup.

Also, initial read of Yoshiken comes out null. Nothing there that seems all that awful, really. Still processing his latest posts, though.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 11:43:01 PM
A somewhat quick re-read of Yoshi didn't turn up anything major for me, either. He didn't make me think he's town, but he didn't make me think he's scum, either. I also think he did an adequate job of explaining his Laggy attack, and I also think that a few of the things brought to bear against him have been overblown (Tai, regarding Yoshi's comment about not remembering Tai taking any strong stances), silly (MC, regarding Yoshi asking for people to clarify the suspicions they'd been throwing at him) or flat-out wrong (Ciato, regarding the Snowfire train, which Yoshi was not on). Can't see myself switching to him.

Cut by Xanth. Surely this will fuel his paranoia further, but.

Cut again by more people, nothing that tells me this shouldn't still be posted, since it's worth having it out there for future reads if nothing else.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 26, 2010, 11:43:27 PM
Day 1 Votes

Alice (4): Cyril, Quietrain, Metroid, Glen, Snowfire, Ciato, Metroid
Carthrat (1): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire, Zenny, Metroid
Glen (6): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga, Carthrat, Taishyr, Roukanken, Taishyr
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (0): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (1): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (0): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice, Glen, Roukanken
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (0): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (0): Cyril, Ciato, Taishyr
Snowfire (1): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

No Vote: Noyn

Glen is at L-1
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 11:44:26 PM
Not seeing anything from Alice beyond being Alice

If Alice's posts normally read like that, then okay sure, probably not the best lynch.  (How many people on the Alice wagon are familiar with Alice's posting style?  I'm not).

Will reread Laggy/Glen, as I never did a good read there.  (Wanted Laggy to answer questions).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Glen Veil on May 26, 2010, 11:45:26 PM
Just going to say that's entirely unnecessary for you to claim alice, I'm up by two votes now, and barring some crazy turn of events of augst getting a win proportions will probably be the final lynch.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 26, 2010, 11:50:29 PM
In thinking about things, though, I would like to hear the results of Yoshi's proper Tai reread. Dunno if we're going to get it today instead of Day 2, but it would be nice.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 26, 2010, 11:56:41 PM
Hmm...a Laggy reread turns up what Alice was saying about "putting Carthrat at L-2".  It's just a "pro-early-train" post that being at L-3 or L-2 gets people to talk.  Feeling marginally better about Alice.

Laggy part of Laggy/Glen is not that big on content, but does take us out of jokevotes, and does draw attention to himself.

From memory...

Glen jumps on me for being reportery--(like the 8th accusation there), but a lot of people when they first skim the topic do the same.
Glen goes after Alice for what seem to be fairly logical reasons to me (though some people are telling me this is just how Alice always posts).  Given Alice calling Glen a noob, I assume they haven't been in a game together before.

Mmphf.  Okay, taking opinions and all that, but I don't feel like either of them have taken particularly risky opinions.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 27, 2010, 12:11:12 AM
Kefka shot out of his seat with a loud, "I'm bored!"

"Well, then," Luca sneered, drawing his blade.  "Looks like the little piggies are all done talking."
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Excal on May 27, 2010, 12:21:04 AM
"He says he's Matthew, and I'm pretty sure we can trust him."

"But I don't know...  Matthew's a bit more...  dashing than this.  Besides, I'm pretty sure a Fire Emblem character would counter more often than he does."

"Yeah, I agree!  But... this other guy also looks kinda bad..."

"You do have a point..."

"Kill him, not kill him, will you pansies grow a spine already!" Kefka roared.

"Hah, forget them.  I'll take care of this one myself." Luca said as he strode forward.

"You fools!"  Matthew cried.  "I'm here to help on orders of Lord Hector himself."

"Oh like I care about that pathetic backwater.  You lot are almost as bad as those Jowston Pigs!"

Seeing no other way out, Matthew drew his dagger, but the outcome was never in doubt.  His sole victory lay in forcing Luca to end it quickly.  After his parting words and his corpse faded away, they checked his inventory, and discovered that he was in fact who he claimed to be.  The imposters had eluded the group, and the twin terrors had been sated with the Thief's blood.

Glen (MATTHEW - TOWN THIEF) has been permakilled

Day 1 Votes

Alice (4): Cyril, Quietrain, Metroid, Glen, Snowfire, Ciato, Metroid
Carthrat (1): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire, Zenny, Metroid
Glen (6): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga, Carthrat, Taishyr, Roukanken, Taishyr
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (0): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (1): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (0): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice, Glen, Roukanken
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (0): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (0): Cyril, Ciato, Taishyr
Snowfire (1): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

No Vote: Noyn


It is now Night 1, please send your actions to me.
Day 2 will start in 24 hours.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on May 27, 2010, 12:51:03 AM
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/554/advicemomizimafia1.jpg)

They say imitation is the greatest form of flattery. And, well, I wouldn't be able to live with myself as a Hijacker if I didn't hijack someone else's RP style from another game entirely.

In an amusing (to me) twist of fate, I have the ability to speak at night. I may or may not be able to do anything else, that is for me to know and for scum to wish they knew. I could have spoken on Night 0 but I elected not to for reasons that should be obvious.

While not the result I expected, I've been on too many Day 1 town trains to be overly surprised by this flip. I wasn't 100% sold on Lagglen, but no one ever is on Day 1 and I honestly thought he was our best choice. Best I can say is "oops". Initial reactions in regards to the other players is to bump Ciato down my list of suspects, as the charge of "opportunistically jumping onto the opposing train of a flipped scum" can't be use when the potential flipped scum actually flipped town. I'm a tiny bit more suspicious of Yoshi for that Laggy vote, as perhaps I was right in calling it lazy, and it may well have been opportunistic as well ("Ooh, some guy just unvoted without revoting! Easy target GO!" without bothering to check the circumstances of the lack of a revote). Will also want to look back at Roukan, because I already can't remember his reasons for jumping to the Lagglen wagon there at the end and that bothers me greatly.

(Also, if I get mailbombed by Killer Instinct on Night 2, I fully expect to see Xanth's head on a pike at the end of Day 3.)

Fuller evaluations and opinions will have to wait until after a reread of the day, which will have to wait until after Red Sox/Rays and Celtics/Magic. Once those are over I'll poke my head back in here and see what I can drum up. I also have tomorrow off (for the most part; I have a softball game in the early evening but by that point I expect to have said everything I will have wanted to say, and half-expect the day to have started by then anyway.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on May 27, 2010, 01:03:37 AM
(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/70/advicemomizimafia2.jpg)

(Suppose I should also point out, for those that didn't follow Meme Mafia or lost track of this account after it or whatever, that yes, this is indeed still Kilga behind this mask.)

While everyone's waiting on me to do something meaningful, I'll even go the extra mile and throw out some silly bonus content. Don't expect this beyond tonight, though.

Epic Roll (http://www.usuallydead.com/epicroll.swf) is a relatively recent 4chan creation, in which clips of many internet meme songs are strung together on common words and accompanied by amusing animations (often, but not always, imitating the video that accompanied the song). The last song loops into the first, so the cycle is never-ending, though the whole string is only about a minute long. Still, it is surprisingly catchy and a good source of nostalgia, enough so in both cases that I think it's worth sharing. See how many of the memes/songs you recognize: Obama Girl was the only one I didn't know when I first watched this.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: COMBO BREAKER on May 27, 2010, 01:08:44 AM
Scum has a message for you, traitor.

(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5318/19571029163871fb4f76.jpg)
(This is still Soppy, in case anyone is wondering)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on May 27, 2010, 01:14:07 AM
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5961/advicemomizimafia3.jpg)

Probably should have attached a NWS warning to that flash for some of the language used. I know there's a "4chan" label, but still, I don't want to get anyone in trouble because they decided to listen to the flash around other people.

Cut by what is probably the most appropriate account to do so.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on May 27, 2010, 06:28:44 AM
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2338/advicemomizimafia4.jpg)

Bruins did it, Celtics are halfway there. Great. Not really in a Mafia mood after that game, especially since I knew exactly how things were going to end after Kendrick Perkins's second technical "foul" but stupidly decided to watch anyway, but a promise is a promise, and the DL Mafia crowd is the last group of people I expect to be sympathetic to the plight of Boston sports, so here we go.

Roukan's vote appears to be rooted in his major wall here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108751.html#msg108751). He concludes said wall with "I want to give Glen until Day 2" which is irksome in how it changes to "I want to hammer Glan right now" in overtime with no apparent in-between, but he did also claim not being able to see the Yoshi case. His approach to Alice, on the other hand, is a little half-hearted, and I wish we could have seen that explained further than what just appears to be a player meta pass.

Not at all happy with how Noyn lurked through the day, for as obvious as that is. We never got the post promised here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108696.html#msg108696) and if there's any one post I want to see at the beginning of Day 2 it'll be that one.

Snowfire looks particularly bad on a reread. This line of his is particularly amusing:

My case on Rat is slightly more direct: Tunneling + low content is suspicious no matter who does it.

Because I feel it describes most of his day's behaviour regarding Rat to a degree. It seems like he has pretty flimsy reasons to keep his vote on Rat every time it comes up. Here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108651.html#msg108651), for example, there's little to no explanation for why his vote is still on Rat as opposed to being moved to Yoshi (in particular there is no explanation why Snow disagrees with the things he disagrees with). He also calls Rat pursuing one person a "smokescreen" at one point - what does that even mean? This sounds like just throwing out negative buzzwords to make someone sound worse. A lot of the rest of what he posted falls into one of three categories:

- Waffling and/or forming an indecisive/neutral conclusion (pretty good example here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108681.html#msg108681))
- Definitions and game theory discussion
- Stating things that happened (pretty good example of this and the above here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108720.html#msg108720), this is your typical active lurk post)

Admittedly he does have some opinions on people every so often but they get lost in the chaff and usually aren't explained too thoroughly.

His day ends with the switch to Alice, which is pretty weak, combination of gut (ugh) and not finding Alice's cases "plausible", a statement he did not bother explaining either time he brought it up. This pretty much reads as no reason at all, to be honest. Nothing about why he doesn't think Alice's cases are plausible, just that they aren't. Hard to believe a statement like that with no backing. This generally applies to Ciato as well.

This will be my last post of this real-life night; I'll be back tomorrow some time to take a look at the two day-end wagons and see if I can make anything of them.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on May 27, 2010, 09:07:15 PM
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1940/advicemomizimafia5.jpg)

So the Alice wagon got started by our lynchee, which doesn't say a whole lot other than that's what Glen actually thought (and I still think he was overblowing that one line that got tossed around for a while). Moving on from there.

Snowfire's vote I've already discussed. Founded on nothing other than two separate occasions of an unexplained "don't find Alice's cases very plausible". Still looks bad.

Ciato's vote I discussed right after it happened. Willing to give this one a little slack, though, because I know Ciato tends to be a "feelings" player (not that she can't play the pure logic game, of course) and it has worked for her in the recent past (Tony and Hilda come to mind, assuming I remember those games right) and probably further back beyond that but my memory is terrible. Still wish the tangible stuff like "disagree with everything he's said" would be explained more, even with just a couple of examples, but with Glen's flip she's not an immediate concern, and it looks like she's at least giving some effort to explanations with "It just feels like he is trying really hard to put people in a negative light".

MC's vote actually looks the best of the four. There are bits and pieces of it that I kinda wave my hand at - Alice tends to use *ahem* strong language so that's not really a tell in his case, and Snowfire DID agree with Rat about a time lapse being necessary for someone to qualify as a lurker so Alice was correct there - but on the whole it looks to be a concentrated effort to point out things she sees wrong with Alice and, more importantly, WHY she think they're wrong. Suddenly less concerning as a result.

Splitting post here, the Glen train part of this write-up is a lot longer and it makes more sense to cut between the two trains than to cut in the middle of one.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on May 27, 2010, 09:13:22 PM
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3347/advicemomizimafia6.jpg)

Now for the Lagglen wagon. I'll be leaving myself out of this since it's pointless to publicly judge my own actions.

Most of what I remembered Xanth's vote being for was the metagame cherrypicking, but in reading back over his progression throughout the day I see that the vote evolved with him, so he looks okay to me. Only thing of his that's putting me off is the part of this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108783.html#msg108783) post where he talks about avoiding needing Hatbot as a tiebreaker, since I've seen that sort of "helpful game advice" line from scum so many times in the past. It's the only thing I hold against him, though, so it's probably just generic Mafia paranoia over nothing.

Suddenly a little more wary of Yoshi in light of the Lagglen flip. Reading over his posts again for the umpteenth time, I do start to see a "throw shit out to see what sticks" sort of strategy (I think it was Ciato that first mentioned this maybe?) while providing not a whole lot of continued selling of his own vote; he more or less dismisses Glen's MC case on the grounds that MC seems more newbie than scummy (despite having MC actively listed as one of his worst reads (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108624.html#msg108624)) and otherwise tends to spend more time getting caught up with MC over less relevant things than actually selling his case. Dislike his end-of-day disappearance after claiming he'd be around; possible that something came up in real life, sure, but egh, it hurts not having further Glen thoughts or the Tai reread results.

Rat, what is up with the switch off of MC? (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108733.html#msg108733) You seem all gung-ho on keeping your vote on MC ("naysayers be damned") but then just kinda flop over to Glen in the same post. You say Glen just listed MC's actions; while he did indeed list several of her actions, he accompanied most of them with the issue he had with them. In particular:

States a dislike of Yoshi's posts (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108587.html#msg108587), but stays on Xanth on an initial vote (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108560.html#msg108560) that strikes me as simply asking for clarification, and there are no posts from Xanth imbetween for her to change the reason to anything other then clarification.  Not understanding logic of sitting on a vote for someone you simply want clarification on when there is someone you actually find suspicious.

Bolding mine. It is very odd that you'd say you "can't see the case he's made" when the bolded is actually one of the things you busted MC for yourself (in fact, you bring it up yourself in that very same post!) I'm not seeing what made Glen suddenly worse than MC to you, and I'm having a hard time buying "I can't see his case" in light of his using at least one point that you yourself used previously and then used again immediately after him.

Roukan I've already spoken my piece about. In light of other stuff, though, he's suddenly lower priority; I've decided I'm somewhat willing to let him use "Alice being Alice" as an excuse to not vote Alice, at least for the time being.

Tai...oh dear.

Glen/Laggy:

As Laggy, votes Alice during jokevote phase for lurkering, sticks to vote and justifies based on this having been a scum tactic for him (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108505.html#msg108505) (referencing, I do believe, MotK games where Alice has lurkscummed heavily before). Notes Rat has shown up unlike Alice, but hasn't said anything further down in page 2. Does some mild responding in page 3 including the unvote of Rat, votes Yoshi for contrariness. here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108571.html#msg108571), then Glen subs in, votes for MC here. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108727.html#msg108727) Feels like the vote misses the point of what MC noted about SnowFire's callout of Rat, posts page 6 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108769.html#msg108769) with a paragraph and then "uhhh I guess I don't have as much as I thought, abandon target!" And goes for Alice. And... there's been a mess but it's all on this page, you can read.

...

##VOTE: Laggy/Glen Veil[/b]

I'm still not confident on this (hey I'm not taking a strong stand Yoshi?!?) but of the current people I'm favoring him over Alice/Rat/MC. I should reread Alice, but. For now, gonna take a short break, will be around on-off for most of the time up to deadline if not all the time.

I didn't realize how reportery this was until I just went back and checked it now. This is nothing but a list of what Laggy and Glen has done, with the only thing remotely close to an opinion being his interpretation of Glen's Page 6 post (an interpretation I don't entirely like, given I had done the same thing regarding Zenny earlier). Nothing in there about why Lagglen is bad, nothing about why he's worse than Alice or Rat (or MC but given Tai's stance on MC this is more forgiveable). Just a vote. Ick. With all the stuff thrown around about how reporting is bad, I'm surprised no one caught this, since it's about as reportery as one can get. Tai's overtime stuff could go either way, could be town pushing for who he feels is the best candidate, could be scum pushing for an absent lurker to eliminate the Glen and Alice paper trails (especially after realizing how weak his Glen vote is and deciding it would be better to push someone about which he actually has an existing strong opinion). This is #1 on my "Likeliest bandwagon vote" list.

---

On the whole, from disliking the most to disliking the least:

Snow > Ciato > MC on the Alice train, and
Tai > Rat > Yoshi > Roukan >>> Xanth on the Lagglen train. The personal issue I have with this ordering is that I otherwise had no real problems with Tai and Rat throughout the day; their votes are simply very spurious.

That's pretty much all I have for this night. A small part of me doesn't like that I left out Zenny entirely but this look long enough and there are other things I'd really rather do today. Don't know for sure who I'll be voting, and even if I did I would rather save that info until after the info we'll theoretically get from the NK.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: Excal on May 27, 2010, 11:35:35 PM
Every had a bad feeling as they scattered, but it got worse as a gunshot rang through the early morning.  Rushing to the scene, they discovered the body of Budehuc's Lord, badly beaten before being shot.  While every was certain he couldn't be an imposter, they checked anyways, coming to the shocking discover that he was actually trying to unite both sides against Kefka and Luca Blight.  Or, at least, to get everyone involved running some kind of shop over at Budehuc.

CIATO - Thomas (Third Party Tenkai Star) - Has been shot.

Sadly, no information could be found on whether or not he had been successful in his endeavours.

With this, the group looked at each other, worry clear in their eyes.  Imposters among them, and now proven to be killers.


1.  Kilga
2.  Metroid Composite
3.  Yoshiken
4.  Carthrat
6.  Alice
8.  Taishyr
9.  Zenny
10. Noyn
11. Roukanken
12. Snowfire
13. Xanth

11 Remain Alive, it will take 6 votes to lynch.
Day ends in 72 hours.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Roukanken on May 27, 2010, 11:39:28 PM
Alright, I've got a chance to read these two pages properly now. Let's go.

Makkotah 132:
Quote from: Makkotah
Intended accomplishment:  Getting Carth out of L-3.
As Tai would put it, why? L-3 on ED1 is hardly a death sentence, because a quickhammer that early in the day is point-blank suicidal.
Anti-Laggy was just a reference to how you were choosing to focus on Lurker!Alice rather than Lurker!Rat.

Quote from: Makkotah
Addressed this already in one of those posts you couldn't be bothered to address.  Reading is fun.
A Ctrl+F of your posts gives no results for Ciato between your vote and your unvote. I'm afraid you're going to have to present where you addressed this prviously, because I can't see anything like an explanation as to why your vote was still on Ciato despite all your complaints about Alice.

MC 135:
There is a difference between 'drawing attention' and 'making a case you are well aware is poor'. As for your 'but there are other lurkers!' point, does it even make sense for scum as a team to gang up on one or two lurkers? Because that's more or less the only logical assumption you could make from that point.
LaL <> pressure voting, because SOME PEOPLE LURK ON DAY 1 REGARDLESS OF ALIGNMENT SO THE POINT IS MOOT. How many times does this have to be said?
Also your 'If I was scum' point is basically a piece of WIFOM the moment you use it as a defense.

Snowfire 141:
Quote from: Snow
I was talking about something I thought was interesting and then explaining why it was still a null tell to me.  It was *very* early Day 1 without much content to legitimately talk about.
Which is why we definitely need people taking up long arduous paragraphs explaining in graphic detail points that they themselves don't agree with. Because when there's nothing to work with, of course it's a good idea to fill the topic with useless fluff!
And I apologise for the misrep, since apparently it's actually 'Carth is making sense BUT IT'S BAD SENSE AND HE'S NOT POSTING A LOT ON DAY 1'. That should be more accurate.

MC 158:
This is what I meant by the case on Alice making little sense. The point MC makes against Alice's 'Carth train probably has scum on it' involves the game being nothing beyond hard statistics, which, uh, it isn't. The fact that she then goes on to say 'Even if it IS a good idea for scum to be on wagons, it's WIFOM' is the nail in the coffin - as previously mentioned - WIFOM does not work that way, WIFOM is for two choices which appear equal with opposing payouts, and scum has more to gain from being on the wagon than Town gains from scum not being involved. Alice himself rammed this through my head in an earlier trainwreck game.

Plus less than a paragraph later, you proceed to accuse Alice of misrepping Laggy on two points that he actually made.
Quote from: Laggy
Zenny, scum piling onto Carthrat to pull a sudden end to D1 via train? Really? Come on. I'd give props to scumteam if they played that blatantly.
This looks like 'voting Alice over lurking while complaining about the Rat train'.
Quote from: Laggy
Actually, to the contrary, Zenny, you get all sorts of interesting reactions when people are at -3 or -2 to hammer, which leads to a lot more Relevant Things being said than not. It's important to note that (especially on Day 1) this is usually no firm indicator that person is actually going to be the lynch. This is a game where trains develop and how people play off of them is how you piece together the puzzle.
And this is Laggy backpedalling to say WAIT L-2 IS OKAY before dropping a vote on Carth. I don't see where he's being dishonest, really. (You've since noted this point in #195, but mentioning it at the end of the day JUST WHEN LAGGY IS ABOUT TO DIE makes it look a lot less sincere.)

MC 172:
Quote from: MC
"SnowFire doing X"--where X is not what SnowFire did.
This is a very...general assault. I'm looking over Alice's posts again, and I'm seeing nothing that really qualifies as Snowfire misrep. What exactly are you accusing him based on?

MC 183:
So the case on Yoshi revolves around how he made an accusation of someone but then voted someone else he had made a case on? When the point he made on Snowfire consisted of one sentence while he's already given several paragraphs on Laggy?
Where I WILL agree with you, though, is the point about Yoshi and Ciato, though I don't think it's enough to had people considering lynching him yesterday. Yoshi, mind clarifying exactly what Ciato said in the next post that agreed with you?

The main reason this post is so heavily oriented around MC is that my other two cases sort of disappeared around deadline and gave me nothing to work with. MC has been misrepping people left and right, agreed with a case on Alice which I still don't believe in, and gave us the fantastic 'If I were scum' WIFOM from 135.
Makkotah and Snow...are more or less the same as they were back in 126, really. Nothing to incriminate them other than silence, nothing to clear them either. Noyn now really needs to start posting, whether or not he's got a vote.

For now, ##Vote: Metroid_Composite

And now I need sleep. I wrote this all up during N1, so =_=
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 27, 2010, 11:47:21 PM
Okay, working on the summary post (still) as we speak. Just some things to clarify from the end of D1.

Firstly, sorry I missed the deadline. argh illness, argh stupid sleep patterns. I know missing the deadline does nothing but make me look worse, but might as well throw out the reason I missed it, at least.

The list of worst suspects isn't so unreasonable outside of SnowFire as his #2.  Wait...what the hell?  Yoshi: why did Alice read as the most town to you?  W.T.F.?
Those three were in no particular order. They were all contributing at that point, and none had said anything I could disagree with. (This is, in other news, why Tai was on that list, only for me to make a note to reread later on - while I couldn't think of anything I disagreed with, I couldn't remember anything of note.)
As for Alice specifically there, let's look at his posts in reverse order from my post: a strong case on Snowfire that I mostly agree with (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108612.html#msg108612), clear views on a number of cases ending with the case on you (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108603.html#msg108603) - yeah, I can see why you wouldn't like that post, but I definitely agree on the reporter charge, at least - and, uhm, that's it. He'd taken a while to show up, but the content he'd provided was good, so he was looking good at the time. (As for the rest of the day, I'm still checking through that.)

(using the standby "you're just prodding for anything!" on Laggy (though this was defended well later, it was still used with little backing initially which makes me leery of letting him loose on that), backing off and admitting MC did provide opinions when I pressed even if he tried to cage it, then proceeding to misrepresent me by saying I'd had no strong stances).
To cover these three in order:
1.
(It's important to explain yourself, at least to me.) I prefer to be fully understood than to have confusion sprout since I said too little, but.
Apparently, I'm not the same. I try to stay concise and apparently that led to some confusion in the original post.
2. Uhm. I did? I stand by the fact that most of her early content was reportery, especially the giant summary of nothing.
3. I have said I was planning a reread based around that. Assuming you have produced content, all that's going to do is draw fire to me, so.. yeah, at least wait until my reread post, I guess. If I stand by that view then and people disagree, attack me for it all you like.

Rou Ninja: Yeah, the Ciato point is was linked in the summary. Since points on Ciato are now pointless, have a contradiction:
"I basically agree with Yoshi" regarding LAL and "reads neutral" (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108579.html#msg108579) to "I basically disagree with everything Yoshi says" (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108657.html#msg108657)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 27, 2010, 11:50:07 PM
Typed while waiting for N1 to end and at beginning of D2.

Yep, the Glen/Alice/Rat was mostly reportering as I was trying to break down the goddamn cases to myself, what, two hours before deadline?, in addition to having skimmed page six out of half stress, half busyness. Vote landed on Glen at that time due to not liking what I skimread on page six, before actually reading it and realizing that I was wrong. But yeah, don't blame you at -all- for saying that looks bad, looks bad to me too. I have no further defense or commentary on it - well, no, one quick thing: that was written/posted with between two and one hours left in the day. This isn't to try and excuse the quality, but mainly to go "I think people were looking at the main lynch candidates instead of me" - it likely slid past as people considered their lynch targets.

Anyways, been looking through, still don't like Yoshiken, still not terribly fond of Xanth's case setup - and also general quiet, though that's perhaps more attributable to busyness (both cases that I established day 1, exception to Xanthquiet), really wanna see more out of Ciato as I'm not terribly comfortable with what's present right now. Bitter that I was right on Glen, but I had gutchecked against on the skimread and it was only afterward that I picked up Bel-Air, but... yeah, couldn't defend, didn't know how to convince since there wasn't enough to go "no, his reasoning has been consistently solid" at the time. Bah. Definitely at fault myself there, in part.

Want to hear from Noyn because the silence on his end is grating. Kilga is Kilga. I can't read Kilga on average (hi, TOUHOU HIJACK LOL). I need to be better at that. Will start trying harder, but not getting Touhou Hijack vibes in earnest, more like Hazel vibes. Meta? Yes, definitely. So definitely not clear yet, but willing to work this through. Also will people that bicker about the use of meta please calm down now? Most of the lynch on Laggy came from mistaken slaps of "meta misuse!" and I'm sitting here now going "...yeeep, pie in face." Especially looking at Xanth there. Easy case to push, perhaps, because that meta did have flaws - but it was overblown and it started with your posting.

Hell. Back to my day 1 standby position until I have a good idea otherwise. Case incoming, but I want to read Rou's current post as well. Vote likely to land on him for now.

And eh wot to your reasoning of scum!me switching to Yoshiken, Kilga. We have a record of who everyone's voted for pretty much for that purpose, and my vote - especially early, but even later on thanks to that push - has been all over. There's probably a few good reasons why scum!me would want to vote along those lines, but like hell if I can think of any and I don't think what you've brought up is even a good one. Sorry, this occurred to me as I reread - "erasing vote record" can't really happen and to try to claim that's a bit absurd, but I understand the reason why you'd say that (more a case of misleading, but even still, if I were scum (WIFOM TIEM) jumping around like a drunk tick won't exactly be a good way to avoid attention, especially to someone without votes at the time.)

(Ciato, generic N1 kill. On the other hand, wasn't town. ... bah, not willing to think too hard on this.) Two final things, though: HEY, NOYN! How's that votelessness thing going for you? Also, I was targeted by something last night - it confused me, but apparently had no ill effects. I'm not sure what to think of that, but tossing it out for reference.

NINJA Yoshi: Amusingly I'm mellowing on you a bit, and OHNOES MISSED DEADLINE eh not everyone can be expected to hover like carrion during that time. Mainly since there is some stuff you are actively pointing out, as I'm noticing on the Rou reread, and while there's still the flaws I pointed out... mmm. Yeah, while still suspicious I'm not as concerned. Yet. Posting now ignoring further ninja.
Title: Dice Gauntlet Flavouring
Post by: Xanth on May 27, 2010, 11:55:15 PM
Thursday and Friday are worst for me. Luckily this has been half-burned on the night phase (although as a result I haven't generated anything new in the meantime), but a note I won't really be here until Saturday morning (~32 hours from now), at which point go figure I'll have plenty of time. I have a small gap in my schedule tomorrow, though, so may be able to be on tomorrow afternoon (~18 hours from now).

Oh, and someone appears to have acted on me last night. The wording implies it was positive (or at least not negative), so I'm just throwing this out should it need to be claimed later. Certainly do not want whoever it was to claim it or explain the result of said action.

Ninjas with lots of stuff but also similar claim of being acted upon: oh okay, guess this might be fairly common.

Oh, and Tai's still belittling my case on Laggy and reducing it to just the meta cherry picking again. Okay.

Need to stop before I keep reading everything and end up losing yet more sleep this week.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 28, 2010, 12:12:23 AM
All right, this got a bit long, so response to Kilga first.  Intend to post again shortly afterward.
--

Kilga: I hope that we just have a conflict of playstyles here because I'm still kneejerking you mildly town, but...  ack.  There are a few things in my own play that I criticize in retrospect - notably being totally wrong about Lagglen at the end, and misreading his sorta-roleclaim - but you're attacking me on being SnowFire, as best I can tell.

Executive summary:

* I definitely was not a lurker Day 1, active or otherwise, so um wat.  Plenty of opinions on record, some of which drew fire and were debated.
* I did discuss people for whom I still had a null tell on, and explained why.  I think this is pro-town myself, get opinions and reasons on the record.  If you're hitting people just for having null tells on Day 1, I hope you're hitting Rat as well (see http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108733.html#msg108733 ).
* Yeah, I agree I didn't explain the Alice vote as well as I wanted to, but I ran out of time, and said as much ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108784.html#msg108784 ).  I was running home on a theoretically one-hour lunch break and taking an hour and a half (including transit).  In general I don't want to get fired for playing Mafia.  It's not cool to lie about RL circumstances, and I'm not.

tl;dr details

Rat and my argument reversed: I didn't tunnel Rat nearly as hard as Rat tunneled MC.  Rat was my big case of the day, yes, but I talked about quite a few people.

"Waffling and/or forming an indecisive/neutral conclusion" - Damn straight, some of the cases I talked about just to reaffirm I still had a null read.  This is my playstyle, for some cases I find it pro-town to lay out why I'm not sure and don't have a good read.  Hell, not just mine, plenty of posts from others also had indecisive / neutral elements...  which is not a surprise, it's Day 1.  Also you picked a weird post to call indecisive ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108681.html#msg108681 ), I made what turned out to be a semi-controversial statement of Mafia philosophy, revised my opinion of mc downward, proposed a skeptical opinion of Alice (which turned into a vote later!), and noted Rat's tunneling of MC (when my vote previously had been more on straight lurkering).

"Definitions and game theory discussion / Stating things that happened" - That post you referenced ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108720.html#msg108720 ) was me panicing about MC taking my post to imply something it didn't.  I could have been curt and said "No, I wouldn't draw that conclusion," but I went into some detail since this is MC's first game.  Oh noes.

Otherwise, yes, I will bring up game theory that I find relevant; I believe this can be helpful and pro-town.  "Stating things that happened" is a worse charge; I don't think I was THAT reportery Day 1, but I can at least kinda see why you'd hit me for that.

"Active lurking" - Funny, this was my exact worry about Rat. 

--

The Alice case

Kilga's right that town does deserve a better explanation of my Day 1 Alice case - large parts of which are relevant for Day 2 anyway!  So here she is.  It's almost all based on his first two posts.

* Briefly regurgitates mc reporting case.  Already been over that I don't personally agree with it.  Could just be hopping on a convenient train.
* Votes me off what's either a [huge misunderstanding / intentionally critical misreading] because I can agree with part of Rat's statement and still vote him?  If somebody posted "Rainbows are pretty" I don't need to say "NO THEY'RE NOT" to vote them.  Post has a fairly excitable tone as well (I'm "disregarding everything Rat says").
* General lurkertude!  Yes Day 1 but still.  Alice's biggest contribution -unique to him- was the SnowFire case, which (Warning: I'm biased) feels forced.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 28, 2010, 12:17:02 AM
Rou!

* Anti early LAL. Mainly noting this for reference. Thinking scum chose that route as an easier case to build on/hide behind/hop onto/whatever they did, wouldn't be surprised to find a scum on pro-early LAL side but not expecting many to have taken that side (maybe more stayed out of the argument instead? Elephino. Curious, tho.)

* Mmm. First post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108669.html#msg108669) moves vote to Zenthor, but doesn't really elaborate, also nags SnowFire here for arguably better reasons in-post but that isn't where the vote lands - first post is also decently reporty but pot kettle black hi. (I'd joke about how replacements in Excal games have a bad tendency to be for scum but Xanth would no doubt call it serious, claim LaggyGlen as counterexample and thus the entire thing is wrong, and vote me. (Joking, Xanth. Love you.))

* Next post: here. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108751.html#msg108751) Okay, where to start? Misrep of MC's case on me (she voted me, explaining that I seemed unwilling to put any pressure on her. Which was, at the time, true) though the rest on MC isn't bad. Most people seem to miss the point of Laggyvote for Alice (Alice -always- seems to lurk, Rat doesn't but has different times. (Sorry, Alice~)). Stating that recording disagreement with the MC case isn't original content on Zenny's part, when it at least commits him to that paper trail. (Zenthor replied to the rest of the issues there, IIRC). SnowFire commentary I'm not honestly positive on accuracy, would need to reread SnowFire's comments. But that post doesn't impress. Switches vote to MC at end of this.

* States intent to hammer, then lays down vote a few posts later (since there is no hammer in soft deadline time). Only thing -vaguely- of notice is that it made both my Yoshiken attempted push and (as I had expressed earlier in the topic, a few posts above Rou) the consideration of me switching to Alice rather moot, but I'm not considering this as anything but a null tell for the moment.

* D2: Replies to Zenthor/Makkotah, except it's about something that'd been covered a few times already (Zenny's excuse is that he overreacted, this has been covered early on, thus why I "defend" him here). Want to see answer to second part from Zenthor, though - I think I know where, but. MC points... mmm, WIFOM's been diluted as a definition pretty highly so trying to pin MC with that seems iffy, other points I will let MC respond to however but I don't think they're solid, reading through them (Laggy was chiding Zenthor for his PANIC BUTTON modo, not critiquing the Rat train. A few others, but again, should let MC defend herself.)

Yeah, not impressed with these cases by any measure right now.
##VOTE: Roukanken
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night 1)
Post by: metroid composite on May 28, 2010, 12:26:28 AM
Hmm...this is exactly why I slammed Yoshi.  Laggy jumped on Yoshi, and I realized it could be easily spun to make Laggy look bad as an OMGUS, so I wanted to diffuse the situation as I felt Laggy was somewhat justified.  Yoshi: you know...one of the best pieces of content I felt Yoshi had, is convincing me that there was a problem with Laggy/Glen's early play (for letting Carthrat off the hook so easily for content).  My opinion on Yoshi is lower now, though not, I feel, my best case.

Something that I'd been thinking over night 1:

Rat, what is up with the switch off of MC? (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108733.html#msg108733) You seem all gung-ho on keeping your vote on MC ("naysayers be damned") but then just kinda flop over to Glen in the same post. You say Glen just listed MC's actions; while he did indeed list several of her actions, he accompanied most of them with the issue he had with them. In particular:

Sums up my thoughts.  I will also add this:

I am unable to really process a case on Alice at the moment (and the people on it seem to have trouble really identifying issues with him I can easily understand anyway) and prefer the Glen lynch.

The thing is?  Glen's accusations of me hold a lot more content than Alice's do.  Alice's first post is five paragraphs long, and I'm mentioned in one single sentence, followed by a ##vote metroid_composite.  The next post where I'm mentioned...only says a vague "reportery" and "hasn't produced anything useful"--most of the post is actually talking about Glen.  The next post is similar on Glen--overall Alice never actually makes a reference to any of my individual posts, just makes extremely vague general statements such as "trying to sneak by with minimal content and failing."

Interesting that Carthrat had an issue with Glen's jump on me, and yet never really processed a case on Alice.


Next, piece of evidence, the flip: Carthrat really only presents opinions period on two people (me, Laggy/Glen) both of which I now know to be town.

So...my top case before we went into "oh day's ending, better hop on a train that could conceivably hit majority", is...only looking worse given recent events.

##Vote: Carthrat

Ciato's flip...I...really don't feel I can get much information out of.  Not so much because she's third party, as nobody really had a strong opinion on her (because she didn't really give us much to work with).

I will say that complaints towards the end of the day that the "Alice train came out of nowhere" seem kinda unfounded.

SnowFire announces discomfort with Alice (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108681.html#msg108681) (top case Carthrat)
Zenny expressed discomfort with alice (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108713.html#msg108713) (top case Carthrat)
mc Starts pressuring alice (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108691.html#msg108691) (while setting up for a Carthrat vote)

Glen jumped on to Alice shortly after subbing-in, and Laggy got IRL-disappeared before he could make a case, so that's not really sudden either.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 28, 2010, 12:50:57 AM
Feel free to skip

Non-content post, just clarification on "WIFOM"

WIFOM does not work that way, WIFOM is for two choices which appear equal with opposing payouts,

You know, my understanding of WIFOM comes from meme mafia, where "scum roleblocks teammate" was called "WIFOM at best"--that's not two equal choices.  A scum player who happens to log in at the right time to see the potential to form a jokevote train has two choices: hop on train, or don't hop on train.

Quote
and scum has more to gain from being on the wagon than Town gains from scum not being involved. Alice himself rammed this through my head in an earlier trainwreck game.

What does scum gain for being on a jokevote wagon?  Past the very earlygame, people ignore the jokevote phase.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 28, 2010, 01:17:49 AM
Okay, since it seems we're claiming this kind of stuff....

I was 'powered up' last night.  Sounds like a similar effect to what hit Xanth.  The result was positive.

Er, thanks, mysterious benefactor.  I don't think I'm going to claim the effect just yet either, and no need to claim who did it.

Also, in what is likely irrelevant news....
Quote
While every was certain he couldn't be an imposter, they checked anyways, coming to the shocking discover that he was actually trying to unite both sides against Kefka and Luca Blight.  Or, at least, to get everyone involved running some kind of shop over at Budehuc.

Sounds like Ciato!Thomas was a Cult Leader?  So probably no continuing effect on the game, unless she's a really weird variant that let her N1 recruit keep recruiting.

--
Responses:
Roukanken: Which is why we definitely need people taking up long arduous paragraphs explaining in graphic detail points that they themselves don't agree with. Because when there's nothing to work with, of course it's a good idea to fill the topic with useless fluff!

Are we on the same planet here?  Here's the post for reference ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108499.html#msg108499 ).  I *do* agree with what I wrote here?  I'm just saying it's a null tell due to circumstances.

That said, Kilga also hit me on "too much chaff to content" ratio.  Ugh.  Will try to be more concise, I guess, always a decent idea on general principles regardless.

Yoshi: As for Alice specifically there, let's look at his posts in reverse order from my post: a strong case on Snowfire that I mostly agree with

I don't want to be going in circles forever on this - kind of like the debate between "MC is reporting!" and "MC is being MC!" - but seriously?  A strong case?  I didn't "disregard Rat's post," I said that it contained one truism (which was irrelevant to pro-early-LaL vs. anti-early-LaL - you can be pro-early-LaL and still acknowledge that it takes time to really be a lurker) and contained one accusation that I didn't agree with (mc reporting) and there was nothing else.  Alice somehow got "no appreciably good reason" from this.  Even if we toss out the MC thing as an issue of disagreement, I think that calling Rat an active lurker at the time was wholly merited - the mc reporting charge was all he said at the time.  (Rat got somewhat better later in Day 1, yes.)

--
Suspicions: Taishyr's case on Roukanken is interesting.  Actually leaning anti-Rou at the moment, he seems prone to weird interpretations and exaggerations.  Strangely enough, I don't really agree with Kilga's case on Rat, though MC has a point.  Rat was on record as saying he didn't buy the Alice lynch and by that time of the day I believe it was pretty much Alice vs. Glen?  Certainly could buy a "lesser of two evils" lynch, though I'll let Rat correct me if I'm wrong on this.  I can't really hold Rat's harsh reading of Glen's post against him either as I fell for that too (oops, in retrospect).  Which is not to say Rat is off the hook...   oh, look, damnit, SnowFire, you're speaking up in favor of people you're still suspicious of!  And now you're typing to yourself.  Le sigh.  Let's just leave it at that I'm very conflicted about Rat right now.

##VOTE: Alice

Still the player I'm the least happy with even ignoring the lurking - like I said before, I find cases the least plausible.  He hit mc with practically no commentary and hit me on what seems to me to be a terrible case, and his later posts were indecisive / self-defense.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 28, 2010, 01:21:59 AM
Okay, since it seems we're claiming this kind of stuff....

I was 'powered up' last night.  Sounds like a similar effect to what hit Xanth.  The result was positive.

Er, thanks, mysterious benefactor.  I don't think I'm going to claim the effect just yet either, and no need to claim who did it.

Me, and I'd really rather you hadn't claimed that--If I needed to roleclaim, you could have confirmed my action last night.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 1)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 28, 2010, 01:39:45 AM
Oh holy CRAP Wall of Text!

Okay, re-read... Ignoring jokevotes because I don't really think there's much there outside of Zenny's "Quicklynch WUT?!" and... yeah, I'm not really reading that either way.

Xanth + (Laggy cherry-picking meta)
MC + (First post against Tai is good) - (Reporter post! Still seeing that as... was it IIoA? Reportery*) - (weak voting logic) - (the end of this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108715.html#msg108715) catches my eye - Rat is suspicious for having different opinions and here, have some scumteam theories on Day One. What.) - (WIFOM - "If I were scum..." (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108775.html#msg108775)) + (presents the Alice case (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108804.html#msg108804) very well)
**Tai + (LAL? Anti-LAL? How about we lynch scum, yeah?) + (good post here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108756.html#msg108756))
Zenny - (neutral stance on everything here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108555.html#msg108555)) - (pure defence post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108771.html#msg108771))
SnowFire - (Rat case)
Kilga + (Voteless analysis - pretty much completely agreed there) ++ (those night posts. so much good content.)
Alice + (strong case on SnowFire - find myself nodding in agreement there) - - (argh this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108774.html#msg108774) is awful. The X/Y/Z thing you mention happened once in that post, as I see it, and you say Glen seems clueless newbie then vote for MC who... is even more of a newbie)
Rou + (that opening post is damn good)
Rat - (Glen's first post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108727.html#msg108727) - seems to have lots of opinions ("Not understanding logic of..." "Not seeing the whole...") yet claims he "just seems to have kinda listed her actions" (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108733.html#msg108733))

* To clarify this, summary posts do two things: look like they're contributing and lead people to look back at old posts. Both of these give the impression of contribution (see Cthulhu Mafia, where me spotting a name in a post of Peyton's led to people going "It's not reporting, you're basing a case on it!" (Those weren't reporting, but that wasn't the reason why)) without actually offering anything.

** As it goes, I've realised my problem with Tai's content, and it really is nothing. It's purely phrasing - quite a few players here, myself included, use pretty strong language and phrasing to get points across, while Tai is more subtle about it, which makes the opinions seem weaker, even when there's the same level of content or more.

To MC: Reading over, it seems you still don't understand my views on your posts. Content =/= volume. Your summary post says a lot, but offers very little in the way of opinions. You say your later post had "weak logic" - that is still logic, that is better than the summary. I didn't see it as quite so weak, as opposed to reporting-and-nothing-else. Not scummy, just... really needs clearing up, methinks.
------------------------------------------
Day 2 Stuff (tired, so probably incoherent, but whatever)
Rou's post reads well to me, which helps, since I had very little with him. Tai spends way too long saying "Damn, knew Lagglen was Town" but the rest of the post is good. Seconding the calls to Noyn - literally nothing on him from my reread, so... yeah, here's where I start thinking of LaL as a feasible idea. Xanth and Tai have had opposite actions that give no information. Not worth pondering, whatever.  Tai's next post is solid enough, for all that I disagree with it.

MC: for WIFOM, I've always seen it as "There are two options. You can't say which one the opponent is more likely to do, as they'll predict that and do the opposite. Or predict that and do the opposite. Or predict that..." *cue endless chain of WIFOM logic* So, yeah, I've never heard the idea of equal chances being involved before either.

Previewing now for double ninja OH GOD WHAT. Snow: you say the active lurker charge was fair, but at the time it was "could be active lurking if I look hard enough for it." That reads as "Well, it's not too bad, but I can read it as bad if I want to!" In other words, it looks like you've picked a target, then formed the argument around that, which... I don't need to explain why that is scummy, do I?

asddsghfdh. Really not sure where to place a vote right now. MC has a lot of good and bad content, but I'm willing to give that a pass for now. Same for Alice. Rat... is difficult to read. I remember him having good content, yet my reread apparently found nothing of note. However, the more pressing concerns are Snowfire and Zenny. Neither have produced much of anything that I like, but I feel Zenny is very effectively pulling off an active lurk here, so:

##Vote: Zenny

Mental note to keep an eye on Noynoynoyn over there. Really want something from him today, especially considering how he posted nothing at all to work with yesterday. (Not seeing him as scum yet, meta meta meta, I know Noyn from another board and I know what he's like)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 28, 2010, 01:40:29 AM
"So, it was that lad from Budehuc Castle, was it?"

His adjutant nodded gravely. Sasarai uttered a sigh and shook his head.

"They die so young."

Day 2 Votecount

MC (1): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro
Carthrat (1): Metroid
Alice (1): Snowfire
Zenthor (1): Yoshiken

With eleven duelists still dueling, you need six in agreement to lynch.

There are, of course, 70 hours remaining, but you can't ever start votecounting too early.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 28, 2010, 01:45:23 AM
mc: I suspected it was you, but.  There was no need to claim it just yet!  Oh, well.

I might be missing something here but I don't see why you're worried about confirmation?  Unless someone counter-claims (although...  I guess I might have been powered-up twice, though I really doubt it.  If so there was no clue to this in the PM.) we can safely assume you're telling the truth that you did power me up...  though this isn't exactly a ticket to guaranteed towniness, either, some kind of Scum Power-Charger is plausible.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 28, 2010, 02:09:37 AM
Just for the record, there are two levels of power over your base, and one under, for all standard roles in this game.  You will be given either strong flavour, directly told, or some combination of the two as to what level you happen to be on if you change from base.  This may not be the case for non-standard roles.

That said, all bastardry is reserved for the setup, and trying to keep the meta from being a simple open and shut if everything is made public (or, as much as you happen to know right now is made public).  I will not lie, or even mislead in PMs after the Role PM, and will give clarification on any point of the gameplay if asked.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 28, 2010, 02:17:01 AM
mc: I suspected it was you, but.  There was no need to claim it just yet!  Oh, well.

Yeah, realized that afterwards.  I was thinking "I have the option of using some kind of positive effect at night at least once--that barely tells scum anything".  In retrospect, it's more than I really need to reveal.

Quote
I might be missing something here but I don't see why you're worried about confirmation?

*shrug* it could prevent a mislynch, is all--I am on several people's radar.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 28, 2010, 02:18:56 AM
MC's roleclaim: With Excal's post I am now very confident I was not the target of two level-up effects, so feel free to counter-claim if MC is lying.  Which I highly doubt.

Yoshi: Yes, I was somewhat unsure about the active lurking at the time, and was open about this fact - that was mid-Day 1, coulda just been Rat's Aussie hours.  My position later intensified.  Boo hiss for being frank when a Day 1 vote is tentative, like they almost always are?  Yeesh.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 28, 2010, 02:35:09 AM
Just for the record, there are two levels of power over your base, and one under, for all standard roles in this game.  You will be given either strong flavour, directly told, or some combination of the two as to what level you happen to be on if you change from base.  This may not be the case for non-standard roles.

That said, all bastardry is reserved for the setup, and trying to keep the meta from being a simple open and shut if everything is made public (or, as much as you happen to know right now is made public).  I will not lie, or even mislead in PMs after the Role PM, and will give clarification on any point of the gameplay if asked.

One more question that I'd like to clarify on boosting mechanics: are people given an indication in their role PM of whether or not their job is boostable?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 28, 2010, 02:57:20 AM
/me reads up.  Whimper.

Okay I'm going to respond to Rou first because that will take like 5 minutes (incidentally, whole post took 30.  damn it mafia).  To be honest I really don't feel like shoveling through text walls right now but I promise I'll try and get my thoughts out there sometime tonight.  Empty promise, perhaps.  Counterargument: Eat a dick.

Makkotah 132:
Quote from: Makkotah
Intended accomplishment:  Getting Carth out of L-3.
As Tai would put it, why? L-3 on ED1 is hardly a death sentence, because a quickhammer that early in the day is point-blank suicidal.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say I overreacted.  Once more, with feeling! I OVERREACTED AND IN HINDSIGHT IT WAS STUPID.  I guess my thoughts at the time were that with 4 scum, 3 could be murdered and the last scum could try to win it from there?  Yeah, no, stupid.  

Quote from: Makkotah
Addressed this already in one of those posts you couldn't be bothered to address.  Reading is fun.
A Ctrl+F of your posts gives no results for Ciato between your vote and your unvote. I'm afraid you're going to have to present where you addressed this previously, because I can't see anything like an explanation as to why your vote was still on Ciato despite all your complaints about Alice.
[/quote]

Fair enough if you're control-Fing, bad on you if you were actually reading through my posts.  Once again, with MOAR FEELING. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108555.html#msg108555)

Quote from: Zenny The WonderJanitor
Re: MC.  Of course I didn't move my jokevote off.  I'm far more cautious about that than other people seem to be about it.  I was wary of people training on Rat before he even posted.  What bloody reason would I have to hop on another lurker train?  Admittedly, I didn't see Excal's note about Alice maybe needing a replacement, but in hindsight I'm glad I didn't move my vote.

Couldn't find the post number, so I linked the specific post.  This brings to mind something I feel I should clarify before the question's even asked: "But Zenny, if you were unwilling to move your vote, why have you been so 'lolwut anti-earlyLaL'?"

Answer:  Because I thought the train on Laggy was stupid, the prominent reasoning (anti-earlyLaL) behind it was asserted but never satisfactorily justified, and guess what folks, looks like I was right.

---

One quick question:  Kilga, was your insomniac ability last night an intrinsic ability or was it caused by another player?  If the latter, can you give some detail about it?  May not matter, but Cthulhu mafia has me thinking in that mindset, sooooo... aposiopesis.

---

Not urgently related to the game:  So, a question, while I'm thinking about it.  What exactly does OMGUS mean?  I thought I knew but I'm less and less certain about it.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 28, 2010, 03:00:38 AM
Oh, yeah, skimming, so may as well get this out there.  Something "bad" happened to me last night.  Not going to say more unless I need to, but there it is.  Bastard moddery, I see.

Also, I think Kilga doesn't need to answer my question anymore, but I'd like an answer to it nonetheless.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 28, 2010, 07:20:15 AM
Did most of my talking already, so this will be short and pretty much full of responses to new posts. Night kill aggravates me because it makes me want to do the dreaded NIGHT KILL SPECULATION dealie and no no no that's bad do not do.

Tai: I must admit I'm slightly less sympathetic to time issues in this game because of the soft deadlines. There was less of a reason to feel rushed to get a vote down, since we could just keep on talking about things to keep the game going. Also, while my secondary hypothetical regarding you seeing how weak the Glen vote was may be far-fetched, the core point of a potential dash-to-an-absent-lurker-to-kill-two-potential-paper-trails still stands.

Snow: If it's a playstyle choice, then...my stance on waffly stuff is that it's very easy for scum to use to hide behind having to provide an actual opinion and/or giving them leeway to choose whatever direction would benefit them later. The game theory stuff I may just be kneejerk reacting too, though, I have a natural distaste for that sort of thing clogging up game space. Either way, even solely founded on the waffly stuff I found Rat less guilty of active lurking, because I felt pretty much everything he said was pertinent and saw him take an obvious stance. Low post count != low content; the two CAN be related but they aren't always.

Zenny: Insomnia's inherent, as obvious as this would become in later nights when I would never have shut up until I was killed. (Side note: Advice Dog made Insomnia look much easier than it actually is. I have no end of empathy for his wishing he had other bodies off of which he could bounce ideas.)

Putting a tentative vote down for now, will change this or affirm it after Rat, Noyn and Alice have all posted something meaningful.

##Vote: Taishyr

For the reasons I discussed over the night, as well a little bit because of how he continues to treat Xanth's Lagglen case. Like I pointed out when rereading him, Xanth's Lagglen case evolved over time; Xanth was adding more reasons to it as Laggy, at the very least, did more things Xanth found scummy. It was not purely based on the meta cherrypicking thing and it seems misrep at this point to continue to label it as such.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 28, 2010, 11:40:04 AM
Minor reply to Kilga post, other things forthcoming.

Given that I'm not quite sure -how- anyone could have known how the soft deadline would work (esp. with the "so long as you entertain" - by whose definition, again?) I was interested in getting that out ASAP.

It wasn't you complaining about the weak Glen vote (that's actually kinda valid) that triggered the last part of the commentary, it was the paper-trail erasing which still makes no sense as a comment.

Re: Xanth case, I never felt it was that malleable (it really just kept on sounding like harp harp harp) which means I'll go do a reread on that one and post that up. Back in a hour, tops.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Roukanken on May 28, 2010, 11:50:35 AM
Tai 211:
- First paragraph is wagon analysis that produces nothing either way.
- Second paragraph is about a post that I basically had to throw together after a quick read of the thread because I suddenly had to read the whole thing at once for the first time.
- Third paragraph:
Quote from: Tai
(she voted me, explaining that I seemed unwilling to put any pressure on her. Which was, at the time, true)
The problem I had was that she basically stated that people would inherently want to protect her because of her character. It was a blatant appeal to meta that didn't even exist given that (from what I've seen) this is MC's first game.
- Fourth paragraph is IIoA/fluff.
- Last paragraph is in general 'He did things that are bad but I'll let MC defend herself'. MC has now posted several times and ignored my case on her entirely beyond the clarification of WIFOM, so what now?

Snowfire is alive again!
Okay, the only reason you would talk about players who you think are showing nulltells is to explain why you think points being raised against them are invalid. Waffling, by definition, means you aren't saying anything useful.
As for active lurking, Rat gave obvious strong opinions when he contributed, when active lurking is 'posting but saying nothing of importance'.
Quote from: Snow
I *do* agree with what I wrote here?  I'm just saying it's a null tell due to circumstances.
The basic summary of that post is 'Laggy's case on Alice is okay BUT WE NEED TO WAIT FOR MODKILL except Excal probably won't modkill BUT I'M VOTING LAGGY ANYWAY BECAUSE HE WANTS TO BE LAZY ON DAY 1'. Also unimpressed with the fact you've basically said 'yeah I agree with Tai' the instant he produces a case against me in what feels like a pseudo-OMGUS.

MAKKOTAH SHISHIO! YOUR HEAD BELONGS TO ME!
Firstly apologies for missing your explanation, I sat reading through your posts for 5 minutes trying to find that one point and couldn't see it. brb kicking myself.
Okay, I'm back, and now that's over with I can say that this point is pretty gah in itself.
Quote from: CCO
I was wary of people training on Rat before he even posted.  What bloody reason would I have to hop on another lurker train?
Except, uh, that was a joke wagon from RVS. You were making genuine points on Alice well after the RVS had ended and you were still voting Ciato.

Quote from: CCO
I thought the train on Laggy was stupid, the prominent reasoning (anti-earlyLaL) behind it was asserted but never satisfactorily justified, and guess what folks, looks like I was right.
Nothing I can say about this other than that I think you're wrong and I'm pretty sure several other people do too.

Noyn is still non-existant. Would like to see more from Rat/Alice now that it's D2 as well. For now, given that MC hasn't bothered responding to me at all, vote stays.

(And for the record, Makkotah, OMGUS stands for Oh My God, You Suck. It's basically the term for when you vote another player simply because they just voted you.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 28, 2010, 12:23:29 PM
Xanth!

* Page 2 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108510.html#msg108510) votes Laggy for (cherry-picking meta to fight cherry-picking meta/cherry-picking meta/meta slapfight) reasons, in addition to the LaL Alice push. Take your pick, open to interps, four interps for three dollars and we'll throw in a free intern.

* Page 4 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108604.html#msg108604) has self defense of vote, saying that cherry-picking meta is what Laggy did when it's what both did and the meta overall shows he lurks heavily and has a high tendency to be scum when doing so (and even if Laggy wasn't referencing MotK Mafia it only backs the point up here). But okay. Also for jumping into LaL very early and pushing it hard (which Laggy did do, mind), but... okay, the problem is still that you're attacking on gameplay differences and not scumminess here with those two points (and you did so very -early- on). While gameplay styles and scumminess can be related, definitely, I'm not thinking that attacking solely based on gameplay mores+meta is at all a town move here, frankly.

* Further down, (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108656.html#msg108656) there's the response to me - and actually, lemme go get Laggy's actual quote instead of "Who cares about other games? Lurking is terrible!" since I'm pretty sure that wasn't it and this is why I -really- hate paraphrasing without sources in Mafia, and Xanth having done that probably rubbed me the wrong way.

Here's Laggy's post. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108513.html#msg108513) In which the quote is, actually, "Whether it masked a townie or not in one particular instanced game is... pretty irrelevant to me! Lurkering of that magnitude is bad either way." In other words Xanth's conflated Laggy's own position from "One instance of a game does not make nailing someone for hardcore lurking a bad idea" to "WHO CARES ABOUT FACTS LURKING IS TERRIBAD". Yeah, fails to impress, this is exactly the same sort of thing you accuse people of doing with the "anti-LAL" stuff later - simplifying stances far too highly solely to fit your case. (Pot, meet kettle! Kettle, meet pot!)

Rest of the post... flusterbus argument on Laggy (this is about the only thing I find remotely applicable, the scattered/weird vote movements -were- an oddity) and some breakdown report/thoughts on other people.

* Page 5, (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108680.html#msg108680) more replies to the metroid case and the Laggy case, doesn't switch to metroid based on meta (high-profile scummy arguments from a newbie?! ...not actually likely scummy. Though I note wiggle room's been left to let you attack over this today, which is something I usually find odd to include but okay, putting aside for the moment.)

* Page 6, ketchup, posts were piling up so I don't blame him. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108783.html#msg108783) Mainly just outlining where he'd stand on the votes, expressing (early?) regret over Glen but not moving since he didn't like the other two options (HAY XANTH WE HAD SOFT DEADLINE CLEARLY YA SHOULD'VE VOTED FOR WHO YOU THOUGHT WAS MOST SUSPICIOUS. No, this isn't an actual attack, more a reply in snark to Kilga). Another post here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108795.html#msg108795), more generic catchup commentary re: Alice potential. A quick post in day 2, waiting to hear more from him and Rat both at this point.

Basically all I see valid in your cases is the Laggy flusterbus and the MC "newbie" card (even though I wonder now how much you overstate that one being played), but town can act just as flustered under pressure if not more so ("MIDDDLEMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN"). So, yeah! Basically it boils down to that I think you cherry-picked your meta -hard- and used that as an excuse to leverage your vote, and then simplified Laggy's explanation painfully in an attempt to make the case stick further. And while you've commented on QR some you've strongly avoided the case, especially since Roukanken showed up (and while he's retracted the concerns of QR I'd still think some followup would be merited). Vote still stands on Rou for now because the commentary he adds doesn't address any of my concerns at all, really, but you're riding close second.
 
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Carthrat on May 28, 2010, 02:48:29 PM
First up, I voted Glen because I didn't like Laggy's play earlier (hoping onto me, LaL-hyping early), and his post here (http://"http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108727.html#msg108727") did not appear to contain an actual case on MC; it made me somewhat leery of his motivations and on the spur of that I decided to move. As I read the post I simply couldn't see a clear focus on 'this is scummy, I will now vote for it'.

Second up, looking at Noyn! for not saying anything at all towards the last half of the day, not too much else to add there, prepared to lynch him on the basis of that alone.

I am not likely to go back to MC today anyway, I've gone over his posts in the last chunk of d1 and.. well, whilst I didn't really like reading through his big self-referencing defensive post, I actually think the way he's playing in general (quite talkative, he seems far more opinionated later on in the day than early) is, well, a bunch of typical townie traits that I like seeing, particularly out of newer players.

I'm presently pretty suspicious of Zenthor, it feels like it took him a long time on day one to come out with a 'serious' case on me, which I feel was really quite spurious-

Quote from: Zenthor
Carthrat:  Whole argument against LaL day 1 is "IT IS NOT A LEGIT TACTIC" but quite frankly given Alice's history you saying that isn't that convincing, at least regarding him.  And, exactly what do you propose to do at a point where there's 2 pages and only one of it has anything other than jokevotes?  If nothing it puts pressure on people to start talking ASAP.

Second post:  Uhhh what.  There's a huge difference between "Alice gets away with lurking scum or town, vote" and "MC always posts in that style not enough to vote".  You conflating the two doesn't sit well at all with me.  Then there's more "LaL is bad because I say so"  and "MC's reporting is bad because it lacks strong opinions." 

Third post:  Kind of redeems himself by pointing out that MC's reasoning for having a vote on Xanth is silly.  However he says that this is the issue with MC's posts, which I guess explains the "strong opinions" bit in the last post.  Still disagree with everything else he's said.

The first point can be safely disregarded as important, I hope. The second is trying to rebut my point on metagaming, I believe; the point I was trying to make was that both stances were based on using fairly arbitrary terms to decide the lynch. The third is just "I disagree with everything", that's pretty hard to rebut, and is disagreement really criteria to determine scum? The rest of his posting during day one was extremely reactive, always responding to things put to him rather than coming out with new content. Hell, it's the same right here, in day two. Townies should be proactive hunters! And he's not; in fact I do feel he's been skimming by without contributing in general, which is pretty much the basis of active lurking (a phrase I'm starting to hate, but I hope it gets my point across.) That's enough to secure my vote today. ##Vote: Zenthor
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 28, 2010, 04:31:20 PM
Quote
(Side note: Advice Dog made Insomnia look much easier than it actually is.

Xanth, make talking a lot look easy? >_>

Anyway...

---

The Laggy Train.  Start with Carth since I was suspicious of him at the end of Day 1.

Guy never really makes a case on Laggy.  Just points out that early LaL is OMGBAD, and seeing no support for his MC wagon, hops off to vote Glaggen.  Somewhat reasonable given the only other person at the time with as many votes was him.  But... what's this?  Suddenly MC's no longer a suspect?  WTF?  Exactly where do you go from "I don't like the way MC's addressed some of my posts" to "I've gone over MC's day 1 posts and he's generally playing townie?"  And the entirety of his case on me is that "I don't have a case on him, also he's only responding to things and not coming out with new content."

Yeah, fuck off.  At the risk of being OMGUS (thanks, Rou), I'm still pretty comfortable voting you off the island. 

P.S. You can only get away with "Early LaL is bad because early LaL is bad u r dum" when you're fucking confirmed town.  Kilga's the only one who's given a proper fucking explanation of the reasoning behind it.

##Vote: Carthrat
---

Xanth.  Starts the case on Laggy.  Kind of confuses me that he says Laggy tried to make the LaL case stick on Alice/Carthrat[/quote] when if anything the opposite is true.  Pretty clear to me now what he meant by cherry picking meta; at first I thought it was about using meta to vote Alice while ignoring MC meta, but instead it was about ignoring the time Alice townlurked.  Finally understand that.  His later reasoning for the Laggy vote, the vote hopping/unvote with no revote/etc. makes more sense (re: is more easily accessible) to me, but was otherwise not mentioned until this point, but that's pretty minor.  I'm... not comfortable with him (voting Laggy instead of QR at first seems kind of off to me), but he's actually been more consistent than I initially believed, and I don't really have anything screaming scummy to me.

---

Yoshiken

Not much has changed regarding my opinions on him since Day 1.  He frankly has the best case on Laggy so far (LaL for pressure should demand content not attendance).  Only thing against him is my frustration at being called an active lurker, but that's not a valid argument (as opposed to my case on Carthrat, where it's frustration icing over a thinking his arguments are pisspoor cake). 

---

GuyMadeOfBees (Taishyr)

Caused me to go back and re-read Yoshiken, and... I don't really see the case.  Apparently he doesn't, either, any longer. I think he's also making too big a deal about  Xanth's case on Laggy, as well.  I...

---

Ugh.  Okay.  I've been working on this for an hour and a half and I'm going to take a break.  Need to think more on Tai and read up on Kilga and Rou.  Take some time to go over the people not on the Laggy train, too.  I've got some time to do this before work, and maybe I'll get a post out before then.  No promises, though.   (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108604.html#msg108604)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 28, 2010, 04:32:43 PM
...Damn it. Hit preview before post, Zenny.  Also </quote> doesn't cancel out a <url>.  Who knew!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 28, 2010, 04:48:01 PM
Still have issues with Yoshiken but I'm knocking them around in the back of my head and relooking at his posts again.

The attempt to move to Yoshiken, again, was because he was a more palatable target to me than Alice/Glen/Rat after a reread and I knew there had been mutterings about him. It failed, I switched back to Glen. Sure, it makes me look bad, but I'm willing to try and nail scum in if I think I've got a better chance doing something off the wall (again, Middleman. How many others here would honestly have argued against that suicide attempt by Fnorder? (Not that I blame him, considering how busy he was, but... it convinced me for the moment that he was town, and that Prinny was the better lynch)). So it's not entirely outside my spectra of playing, if that's why people are eyeing it askew. (Again, Glen vote, poorly backed up initially and I probably shouldn't have made it off skimread, but I did. I take the responsibility for that.)

Meh, talking about myself. I'd love to know in more detail where I'm wrong in my breakdowns on Xanth/Rou but it seems nothing's coming up in that regard thus far - may get something from Xanth himself there. Regardless, out for about seven hours or so, going to go listen to music and try to zone out.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Carthrat on May 28, 2010, 05:33:08 PM
I read MC's post after I stopped voting him and liked how they read, since they were somewhat more detailed and did not fall into the trap of simply reporting actions as those previous. I do not really think his defensive post is terribly indicative of scum, and ended up changing my mind. Additionally I expect a newish scum player to lurk a bit harder than MC has, as he, well, hasn't lurked. Could be wrong! Don't think so.

Quote from: Zenny
And the entirety of his case on me is that "I don't have a case on him, also he's only responding to things and not coming out with new content."
Yes that's pretty much it, I think it's pretty strong actually since scum have a tendency towards reactive play (i.e. let the townies lynch each other, producing made-up content is hard!). The fact that you only vote today after I vote for you, i.e. OMGUSing, as you suggested really only serves to show how close to this style you're actually playing.

I don't think repeating my case back to me makes it go away, no. As for the LaL issue, I explained it doesn't work because people must be given time to actually lurk before they really earn that sobriquet. However using a relatively trivial point, i.e. in this case what makes a good early-day-1 lynch policy as a present case strikes me as grasping for straws.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 28, 2010, 06:14:03 PM
Kay, 30 minutes to clear my head was enough.  

Back to Tai.  I don't know if I dislike the fact that I go "he's given up the Yoshi case" and then he goes "No I haven't I was actually just thinking of switching back to Yoshi."  Don't like his Xanth case, either, but his vote's actually on Rou.  Some reading must be done.

---

Roukanken.  Day one he brings up a pretty valid point about MC's "Imouto defense" that I had missed before.  Otherwise... I don't really see how MC misunderstanding WIFOM can at all be considered "the nail in the coffin."  1) Newbie, 2)   "Two choices with equal payout?"  Technically, but you're misrepresenting it.  The situation MC talked about seems pretty WIFOMy to me.  "Well, scum could be on the train, but they might also not be on the train to look less scummy, but they might know that town knows that so they might be on the train because of it..."

... I'm willing to grant him missing my explanation of why I didn't put down a serious vote since his CRTL+Fing explanation is pretty legit, and I'm willing to grant that maybe I didn't say how I overreacted to the Carth L-3 thing obviously enough for him to not see it.  What I'm not willing to grant is that he didn't see either of them, seeing as he linked to both of them (one instance of me admitting I overreacted, and the post about my vote) in this post, calling both of them devoid of content]http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108751.html#msg108751]seeing as he linked to both of them (one instance of me admitting I overreacted, and the post about my vote) in this post, calling both of them devoid of content (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108751.html#msg108751).  Considering I'm pretty high up on his list of suspicious people, is he really just skimming my posts or something?  Even the ones he's linked to?

Now, I can't really say "read Mafia more thoroughly" without being hypocritical, but it seems to me that someone trying to build a legitimate case would in fact read all the suspect's posts.  

I... think this might actually be a stronger case than my case on Rat.  I'm wary of tossing my vote around, as I've said before, so... Hm.  After I finish analyzing Tai (gonna skip Kilga for now since it's now an hour before I go to work and I'd like to do something with my morning other than Mafia) I'll re-re-read Carth and take a look at MC's case on him.
---

Back to Tai again.  His case on Rou seems pretty weak (pot kettle black?), but in line with my own now-formed opinion.  And, Tai, the thing I think is "wrong" with your Xanth analysis... well, I can't find anything immediately wrong with it (I'll think more on it later.  Stupid time consuming Mafia), but I think you're making a much bigger deal of it than it is.  Perhaps I'm wrong, I'll obsess over it later.  

---

Okay, MC's case against Carth... mostly involves Alice.  God damn it.  Okay, so Alice.  It strikes me as damn odd that Glen's post comes off as "clueless noob"-y while MC's don't, but that's minor.  Also, under the assumption that MC was a regular player here?  Uh.  Right, easy mistake to make I guess.  I can easily see not being able to process a case on Alice, horrible though her arguments are.  And... ugh.  Re-reading Carth, there's nothing I can specifically point to as scummy aside from him waffling on MC after Day 1's "Vote MC naysayers be damned."  

Rou, however, I can point to something specific that strikes me as off.  This is a good enough reason to change my votes, I think.  Still don't like Carth at all, but I don't have anything tangible on him.

##Unvote: Carthrat
##Vote: Roukanken


I'm going to go do something else. 
---

Carth Ninja.  O...kay, so MC was reporting before because she kept her vote on Xanth, but now on a re-read it's not that reportery?  Riiiiight.  I do accept the logic that newscum would lurk harder, though, so... I guess that's a valid enough point, though.

The anti-EarlyLaL thing we're just clearly never going to agree on.

I honestly don't feel like I've been lurking.  Sloughing through Mafia posts takes time and is pretty tedious, and I don't think that only bothering to respond to the most obvious things to respond to until I'm in the fucking mood for all this shit is a good point against me, but that's as bad of a counterargument as I felt your post-before-last was against me.  This is at least some sort of reasoning that isn't "he has no case!"
Title: Words Words Words
Post by: Xanth on May 28, 2010, 06:24:28 PM
Question: what is more fun than spending most of your free time in the first game day explaining in ever finer detail a relatively simple argument and reasoning?

If your answer is 'to continue explaining the reasoning in even finer detail in the following game day' then please do not invite me to your parties! It sure looks I won't be going to any of Tai's parties any time soon.

I will respond to these prompts unless they get really out of hand, but man is this tedious. Plus it's constantly distracting me from actually scum hunting, and frankly it's how limited I've been in that respect that I should be getting slammed for if anything, not this. This'll all but certainly suck up the free time I have today. Also Tai, you're a smart guy and all. I'd taken this for a simple misunderstanding and a difference in priorities, but the deeper this goes the less this looks like ignorance and more it looks like feigning ignorance.

Quickly first: Makkotah: Sure, Laggy removed his vote from Alice as soon as he was effectively forced to by a mod prod, but at the point of the post in question I think he was trying to force the evidence to make the case stick, because sure, who couldn't have predicted Alice as an easy lurker target for day 1?

Tai: I'll counter your bullet points with my own super-indented ones, to try and keep things clear. They hopefully correspond 1:1.

Laggy wheels out the meta against Alice as a point against him, having already been on him for general lurker charges. Here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108510.html#msg108510) I reference a game where in fact he townlurked, which pops his meta argument to a null tell. Here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108513.html#msg108513) Laggy suddenly doesn't care about particular previous instances, because lurking is bad in general. His argument goes from lurking to lurking + metalurktells and then back to lurking flustered like it didn't matter as a result of me producing a counter example. Tell me how my representation of that was in any way misrepresentation of the content (not tone).

And in the case of the contracted pot, I've already discussed that at some point. Can't be bothered to go find it now, but it was in response to Metroid. My points and what several people were taking as my points were very crucially different.

Holy crap I should have left ages ago.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 28, 2010, 07:50:23 PM
I have about 10 minutes here, so just quickly.

MC has now posted several times and ignored my case on her entirely beyond the clarification of WIFOM, so what now?

Umm...pretty simple reason for that: actively making cases and figuring out the setup strikes me as helping town more than posting defence posts.  I tend to skim cases people are making on me.  In the future, please bold your questions you want responses.


Anyway, let's get these questions out of the way:

Quote
As for your 'but there are other lurkers!' point, does it even make sense for scum as a team to gang up on one or two lurkers?

No, but it makes sense for scum to lurk, and there were about 5 lurkers at the time.  Laggy/QR were only pressuring two of them, which means that if they guessed the wrong lurkers, then scum would get away without pressure.  I wanted to call all the lurkers out, and pressure certain non-lurkers for more content.

Plus less than a paragraph later, you proceed to accuse Alice of misrepping Laggy on two points that he actually made.
Quote from: Laggy
Zenny, scum piling onto Carthrat to pull a sudden end to D1 via train? Really? Come on. I'd give props to scumteam if they played that blatantly.
This looks like 'voting Alice over lurking while complaining about the Rat train'.

Umm...yeah, you're flat out wrong here.  Laggy is not complaining about the Rat train--he's chastising Zenny for Zenny's overreaction.

Quote
And this is Laggy backpedalling to say WAIT L-2 IS OKAY before dropping a vote on Carth.

NOT backpedalling.  Though yes, I did finally catch what Alice meant about L-2 when I reread Laggy here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108848.html#msg108848).

Quote
Quote from: MC
"SnowFire doing X"--where X is not what SnowFire did.
This is a very...general assault. I'm looking over Alice's posts again, and I'm seeing nothing that really qualifies as Snowfire misrep. What exactly are you accusing him based on?

See here for what I meant on misrep:

Quote
No, I wasn't voting Snow for wishy-washiness, I was voting him for agreeing with Rat's post, then throwing its content out because of (and I quote) "meh", and then voting Rat for no appreciable reason.

When did...SnowFire EVER agree with Rat?  SnowFire is pro-early-LAL (disagrees with Rat) and feels that my summary post actually has a fair bit of content (disagrees with Rat).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 28, 2010, 08:55:25 PM
Sasarai looked at his men unhappily.

"... Mackerel." He said this solemn word gravely. His men were silent, some fidgeting with their swords or belts.

"I said, 'no mackerel for breakfast'." Sasarai enunciated each word carefully and deliberately. The men became more nervous.

Because the cooks had prepared mackerel for breakfast.

Day 2 Votecount

MC (1): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (1): Snowfire
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat
Taitoro (1): Kilgamayan
Roukanken (1): Zenthor

11 are fighting so 6 need to band together.

It is my belief that there are 50 hours remaining until the night of the second day...
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 28, 2010, 09:14:46 PM
Argh, no time now, being social. Pokemon tournament tomorrow, so won't be around then. Might be around sometime later tonight, but otherwise, I'm afraid I don't have much time. Sorry guys, hope this isn't too problematic.
(Excal: Already mentioned this to you. If you managed to get a sub ready, feel free to bring them in now. I'm finding myself lower on time and more ill by the day, so... yeah. If not, no worries, will keep trying to play.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 28, 2010, 09:29:45 PM
Most of the people I've talked to have been...  unable to join in.

On the other hand, I suppose if push comes to shove, I can recruit dead townies.  Not like they'll actually know anything beyond what I've told them!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 28, 2010, 10:36:38 PM
Tai: I thought the mechanics(/definitions/whatever) of the soft deadline were made pretty clear when Excal posted about them here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108773.html#msg108773). Even assuming your post and his were written concurrently, I don't know why you wouldn't have elaborated on your Glen vote after the fact. Am I missing something in "I'm not quite sure -how- anyone could have known how the soft deadline would work"?

It should come as no surprise to anyone that I'm in Xanth's camp on his back-and-forth with Tai.

Rat's explanation satisfies me for the most part; he does at least have the Laggy paper trail here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108608.html#msg108608), and, while it took me a couple of reads to figure out, I realized that his apparent flip-flop on MC is not actually a flip-flop as he's saying her later stuff was better while maintaining her earlier stuff was still not great. I don't know why he continues to use "he" in reference to MC after being corrected at least once, though. <_<

Will need to look over the Roukan and Zenny cases properly when I'm not running out the door. The Zenny case, at least, I think *might* align with my generic opinion of him because I don't remember a lot of what he's done. Having a hard time skim-understanding the Roukan case, possibly because Page 9 is a veritable deluge of words (not that the Insomniac has any right to complain about walls of text). Will need to look that one over when I get back.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 28, 2010, 10:58:03 PM
Xanth: One point of clarification and one final statement, to stave off drowning the game in WoTs:

"Pot, meet kettle! Kettle, meet pot!" was actually a joking comment to myself, as I had been simplifying your stance somewhat (this was noted on by yourself, and was why I broke your case down that far). Not some excerbic attack as you made it to be, though I don't blame you for having done so.

Finally, put very simply, I fairly highly disagree with what you've provided. I do honestly think you twisted Laggy's words and case badly, and as pointed out above, I believe it to be a case worth pursuing. I think you used what was an easy case for you to defend (Laggy's LAL early) and hammered him for it relentlessly, twisting his words (clearly you disagree with this accusation, but I stand by it). You brought up the "why'd you pursue Laggy over QRou" point again, which I chose to leave behind due to analyzing mainly your posts and not the further dynamics - but that issue is still valid. *shrug* In addition, you brought up the "what Laggy said" thing again, and... yeah, you've backed off from what your original stance was there (from "He said lurking was bad!" to "Alice has townlurked before, so his meta isn't useful there!" when... that wasn't how you twisted the words the first time) In short, yeah, frankly, you're still near the top of the list and barring extraordinary circumstances will remain there for me.

...actually, one thing bothers me still outside of this: you apparently still think the one example justifies attacking vigorously/saying the meta's completely worthless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_and_dependence Problem with that is, one point does not prove the line doesn't deviate that far. In other words your statement that he was town in one game so the meta is useless is itself, theoretically, flawed unless you can prove that the entire correlation doesn't exist, not just one independent point outside the graphed/predicted values. (Apologies to MC for torturing math to fit mafia logic, but this is where I found the issue to be problematic and bringing correlation/dependence into this seemed the best way to explain the logic issue)

I'm not going to WoT reply to this further, if you have any specific part you want replied to I'm willing to comply, but at this point it's drowning the game in text (and again, pot, kettle. I'm guilty of WoT too, more so than you at this stage in the game if only by virtue of talking more.)


NINJA Kilga: Actually I totally missed that post in the rush of posting at the end of the day. Egg x2 on face. Geezum petes, that's hella silly of me. And eh. Apparently this is the mafia game where I can't make an argument to convince anyone ever, so whatever. I'm not willing to back down because people disagree with me, but I will confess that I've kinda been going "oh, yay, yet another person thinking my cases make no sense" so.

And checking the post in question, I think my reason was
Quote
...
Feels like the vote misses the point of what MC noted about SnowFire's callout of Rat, posts page 6 with a paragraph and then "uhhh I guess I don't have as much as I thought, abandon target!"
...
but whatever. I... probably forgot about this since I did the reread and went "wait, shit, Glen reads town to me" and did that last-minute move.

More I should say, but at this point, whatever, I WoT'd again and I'd be repeating myself a lot or trying to reply based off a shitty memory span. So whatever.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 28, 2010, 11:38:59 PM
I was about to try and elaborate further but then reread my statement and realized it was gibberish. Suffice it to say that: Kilga, I'm not trying to say the quoted section -is- or -should have been- good enough for the vote, but I think that's what I was calling into question there and what I voted him for - that shift of gears. But yeah.

Where is Noyn?

Seriously, this rankles at what beginning exceptions (rather reasonable) I even stood on for him. Eh.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 29, 2010, 12:10:54 AM
Modkill notice has been sent to Noyn.  He has 24 hours to make a substantive post (ie. an I am here stub will not save him) or else he will be removed from the game.  I am currently debating whether it is worth the effort of finding a replacement at this point, for all that the usual issue of having to get used to two different styles of posting should, in this case, not be an issue given he has said nothing.
Title: Carrion Crawler Triad
Post by: Xanth on May 29, 2010, 01:06:50 AM
Hahahahaha.

##Vote: Taishyr

No, I can't just keep on letting the lines get redrawn and things drop out and act like this is actually going backwards and forwards. You'll forgive me for thinking that you just can't be this dumb. Maybe I'll respond to your new semantics in the morning, but it's got to the point where I swear you're just rewording things to make it seem like you don't understand something slightly different (or not at all different) for a sense of satisfaction that it makes sense for you to be able to vote for me, rather than actually giving two figs about whether I'm scum or not ("I really think he's scum! Oh, but no one else is voting for him, so eh, I guess I'll just give up" is not good for town, as depressing as it may be to be in that position). The stance is beyond credibility, and this is without looking for other things to attach to this, like how I'm not sure where you plucked Yoshiken from to draw a lynch from and random crap like how you've distanced yourself as much as possible from responsibility regarding the LagGlen mislynch. Oh how we tricked you into it.

And no, I've done zero analysis on other people so far for day 2! Maybe my vote will massively change by tomorrow. It feels like it'd take a lot though, given the in-game source of why I haven't had much chance to look elsewhere. Talk me in ever increasing circles, why not.


So, yeah, first 'proper' post in the morning, hopefully. Maybe I'll finally be able to distinguish between the like five players who have merged in my mind. Two relatively random points before I drop off to sleep:

Noyn is completely beneath my concern at this point. Okay obvious.

I'll be clear about my paranoia regarding Kilga: I've been convinced for some time that part of a potential sensible scum strategy would be to buddy up to me a ton, as it doesn't take a deep observation to spot that I'm a lot harsher on my critics. I would not place a vote based or[, hopefully,] swayed by this, but having someone agree quite so much (especially in a game where my scum hunting has been rather limited so far) has set off some panic buttons. Again, not that Kilga has necessarily done anything wrong. I just need to be careful not to go off the deep end in either direction.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 29, 2010, 01:15:07 AM
... uh, -what-. I have openly admitted I voted for Glen, I moved my vote back to him, I have taken responsibility for my action in that fracas and admitted to every step of that mess - unless I'm not allowed to try and explain myself at all? That must be it. I have explained where my reason to go to Yoshiken came from. This is... this is completely incendiary, and about the only thing that stays my hand is that I'm trying to decide if this would even be a scum move.

Sorry to piss you off, dude, but frankly, no. Even a tantrum won't make me flinch here, and frankly... yeah, no. Guess what? I can't ignore this behavior.

##UNVOTE: Roukanken
##VOTE: Xanth


Adding the pretty much brazen and sourceless attack to the list. I'm tired of this game at this point what with the attitude here, but I was tired of Meme Mafia, too. So if you really want to try and bury me in flame, Xanth, go for it.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 29, 2010, 01:57:09 AM
Hey, Sassy-rai, I think you're a little too obsessed with your breakfast.  Roukanken's got 2 vote counts going, one for Taishyr's vote and one for mine.  Just pointing that out. (Ninja!  Not anymore.)

Having a hard time skim-understanding the Roukan case, possibly because Page 9 is a veritable deluge of words (not that the Insomniac has any right to complain about walls of text). Will need to look that one over when I get back.

The crux of my case on Rou is thus:  He kept hounding on my L-3 overreaction and that I didn't change my vote off of Ciato early on in spite of the fact that he had, at least regarding the issue of my vote, linked to the post that pretty cleanly answered his question while writing it off as contentless.  He had also linked to a post where I admitted that I overreacted (although this was not as clean-cut as the one about not moving my jokevote), also writing it off as contentless.  It strikes me that somebody trying to build a legitimate case would have read the posts that they linked to while analyzing the player.  Dismissing both posts as "contentless" while they answered Rou's questions, and continuing to harp on the point, strikes me as bad.

I felt this was enough to move my vote because, while I still don't like Rat, the majority of that (now that he's answered my questions about waffling on MC satisfactorily) boils down to whether or not I think Anti-EarlyLaL4Pressure is a legitimate enough argument against Laggleny, a gut feeling, and some OMGUS.  The case on Rou has at least something solid I can point to as being off-putting.

---

Finishing up my analysis of the Laggleny train, then moving on to the Alice choo-choo.

So, Kilgamayan/To-Ho Hi-Jack.  Perhaps the fact that during this re-read I noticed that he asks a lot of the same questions I did about other players when I sat down and did some player analysis ("Why is Glen a clueless noob while MC isn't, Alice?" is the prominent one... on a side note, this makes me look worse but there's really not much that can be done about that now.), and perhaps it's me placing too much stake in his role to clear him, but he's the only player I've looked at thus far that I'm pretty confident is Town-aligned.  He's been pretty observant, asks some pretty good questions, and I can't find an instance where he's seriously misrepresented someone's arguments.  This can always change, of course, but for right now he's not even in my consideration for voting.

---

Okay, Alice train time.

MC... continues to strike me as doing nothing but being a bad noob.  I have no idea why the hell she semiroleclaimed but that's not scummy, just... well, an overreaction. Snow claiming the action was kind of beneficial because it helps town know the role setup better, but that just didn't help.  Whatever, not going to spend too much time since Snowfire's more of an x-factor on this train as far as I'm concerned.  Maybe the second most town-seeming player, after Kilga.

---

Snowfire, now.... I was going to do an analysis, but I've realized that I'm bored and reading Mafia while bored of it doesn't really ever lead anywhere good.  Initial analysis is "Well, I agree with him as far as Day 1 posts go" but that doesn't say much about his alignment.  Less lazy analysis is to come later, perhaps after a break, perhaps tomorrow.  I intend to do a less hasty Alice re-read at that point too, but we'll see how that goes.

---

Ninja.  What the shit Xanth and Taishyr are now getting srs.  Will address later.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 29, 2010, 02:57:23 AM
"Dear Zenthor,

You are quite right. I blame the cooks, personally. You just do not serve mackerel at breakfast.
It's faux-pas, you know? Like getting married on a battlefield.

Yours faithfully,

Sasarai, War Bishop of the Holy Kingdom of Harmonia."


Day 2 Votecount

MC (1): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (1): Snowfire
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat
Taitoro (2): Kilgamayan, Xanth
Xanth (1): Taitoro

With an army of 11, 6 make a revolution.

I surmise there are 44 hours left before night time sets in.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 29, 2010, 06:06:58 AM
Reading the Roukan case, I do agree with the point against him regarding repeatedly pushing Zenny on the overreaction thing despite Zenny having already explained it. On the other hand, I think Roukan's issues with Zenny hanging onto his Ciato vote for so long stem from repeated MotK play, where everyone is gung-ho to make sure they get a serious vote out as soon as they can. No one over there really takes a wait-and-see-until-I'm-pretty-sure approach to Day 1, so of course it's going to look weird to him. I'm chalking this one up to playstyle and environmental differences and don't believe it can be held against either of them. Other stuff I'm not sure of right now (hi Snow) due to still being active topics and I want to see how the back-and-forth plays out before I make a final judgment, as I haven't yet seen anything in the various attacks or Roukan's defense that has sold me one way of the other on the case.

Meanwhile, a couple of other random pings include...

- Yoshi: Not digging his Zenthor vote (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108929.html#msg108929) too much. As best I can tell, he cherrypicks a couple of Zenny posts for his +/- stuff (the first of which, at least, gets overblown with the "everything" emphasis given the entire post is dedicated to responding to one person) and then makes the broad sweeping "(hasn't) produced much of anything that I like" combined with the active lurking accusation without doing a whole lot to substantiate either statement. I don't think the posts he highlighted properly support a don't-like-anything statement. Rat provides a better example of how to make a case against Zenny, in my opinion, and I actually agreed with a fair bit of it, but Yoshi's case and vote also being there is staying my hand.

- Xanth (oh God): The guy kinda-sorta brought it up himself, but something that's been needling at me for most of the game but only really become worth vocalizing is how much he has blended into the background. The problem with this is that it's simply unlike him rather than really a tell about his alignment - Khan and Jack were just as active and memorable as Bee Toe and ADog. The reason I bring this up now is this line:

random crap like how you've distanced yourself as much as possible from responsibility regarding the LagGlen mislynch

I can...maybe see where this is coming from, but I want you to produce a more specific explanation for me to make sure I'm seeing the same thing you're seeing, and even after that it still seems a bit of a stretch to say after the guy straight-up admitted his Glen vote was bad and that he feels bad. This just doesn't sit very well with me, as much as I side with you on most other things. Can't really go any further with this until you have the free time, though.

- Alice: A good chunk of this is admittedly based on my Tai vote, and a little bit more is (brace for impact) due to the Ciato NK. Since I'm sure people will want a better reason that they can all look at, though, I want to know where he is. I don't really care if lurking is his meta, I'd expect any townie that narrowly avoided getting the Day 1 axe to have shown up by now, especially since some people are still voicing displeasure with him. Admittedly not a terribly strong feeling, though, and I realize how much of this is founded on stuff I probably shouldn't found it on, but it's how I honestly feel about him right now.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 29, 2010, 06:30:25 AM
Although, in thinking about it, I'm having a hard time thinking of reasons why scum that narrowly escaped the Day 1 axe would be less likely to come out swinging on Day 2 than town. Maybe hoping that the pressure simply vanishes? Eh, don't know how likely that is, especially not in a game where LAL was such a large focus.

So yeah, I guess that doesn't really count as a point against Alice.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 29, 2010, 07:01:52 AM
Hey look still bored.  Quick response to Kilga, though.  I'm mostly repeating myself so tedious WoT sloughing and new content will wait.  Also bite me.

On the other hand, I think Roukan's issues with Zenny hanging onto his Ciato vote for so long stem from repeated MotK play, where everyone is gung-ho to make sure they get a serious vote out as soon as they can. No one over there really takes a wait-and-see-until-I'm-pretty-sure approach to Day 1, so of course it's going to look weird to him.

I can very well see him not imagining why someone would hesitate in throwing down a real D1 vote.  That's not exactly my issue regarding that, however.  This is:

No original content here; disagreeing with the MC case and nodding his head along with Kilga. Desperately trying to look like he's contributing when really he isn't. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108555.html#msg108555)

And a mere 2 paragraphs later...

Quote from: Roukanscum?
I can't be bothered linking the 3-4 posts he makes which achieve little beyond further defending the Alice case, which, for the record, he never even placed a vote on. His vote was still lying on Ciato that whole time, and Ciato doesn't come up in his suspicions at all, even for a throwaway 'needs to post'.

The post with the answer to Rou's question here was linked to by Rou himself.  If he was trying to build a legit case against me I'd imagine that he would have noticed something like this instead of writing that very post off as "desperately trying to look like [I'm] contributing" or whatever.  
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 29, 2010, 07:04:48 AM
Ugh, not stating things clearly enough.  Rather, I could forgive him missing that post if he hadn't linked to it himself, clearly showing that he had at least seen (and I imagine read) it.  Pure accident?  Perhaps, though if that's the case I'm not inclined to buy it just yet.  Still something more tangible than anything I've got on anyone else.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 29, 2010, 07:13:58 AM
IRL note--going into serious apartment shopping mode, so I'm going to try to limit Mafia somewhat.  On June 2 (if I live that long) I fly to Georgia for in-person apartment shopping.


My thoughts are as follows--note that most of these are just intuitive gut reactions and me figuring out which people to do a reread on:

Yoshiken
Carthrat
Alice

Looked at them all semi-recenty.  Should probably update with their day 2 stuff at some point, but the flips aren't flattering (Yoshi spatted with Ciato.  All supported Lag/Glen lynch, although Alice never moved his vote onto either of the major trains).  You can probably safely assume that I'm still suspicious of these three as long as it's still day 2 and we haven't seen any crazy claims.

Zenny
Snowfire

Yesterday had a knack for ninjaing me with the arguments I was about to make.  This may just be playstyle similarities, but since time is limited they're low down on my list of "reread and analyze".

Noyn

Likely modkill.

Taishyr
Xanth

Taishyr is someone who was solid early in day 1 (around when I unvoted him) and...I seriously don't remember his role in the rest of the day.  (Which is odd, because his early actions up through the Xanth vote are pretty memorable to me).

Xanth...I remember feeling well...he had content eventually; content I remember slightly rubbing me the wrong way, though.  And...wait, Xanth was Advice Dog?  Advice Dog was very gut-towny (yeah, people change their playstyles; still).

The recent spat between Tai and Xanth makes them both look worse.  My gut reaction says Xanth moreso than Tai.  (Xanth's reply to Tai's attack being...twice as long as any other post Xanth has made).

Roukanken

I was uncomfortable with QR for...not saying anything that stuck in my mind whatsoever.  Rou...my first-glance reaction is a lot like Yoshi and Alice--misreading things.  Not automatically scummy--it's not like I haven't misread some stuff myself.

Kilga

My gut reaction on Kilga is...kinda neutral.  I'm suddenly realizing that I can't remember who his vote was on for most of the day, despite interacting with him decently often.  To the best of my knowledge, nobody's done a Kilga analysis or is tracking the Kilga case, which makes me feel a little uneasy.

So...hmm, when I get time, analysis on probably one of Kilga, Xanth, Rou, or Tai.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 29, 2010, 07:53:25 AM
Zenny: Ah, duly noted, and will wait for Roukan's response. I...actually have a response of my own to that, but 1) it may be too specific-to-myself to really apply, and 2) I want Roukan to respond before potentially giving him anything with which to work.

MC: What, I make you feel uneasy because no one really thinks I'm suspicious? >_> Are you afraid that I'm going to slack off and do nothing unless people are riding my ass or something? I'm really hoping this isn't an attempt at "Too Townie To Be Town" or something similar. (For the record, Zenny did go over me here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109028.html#msg109028), so I am not entirely without peer review. Don't let that stop you if you really want to go over me, though, I guess.)

Also, I seem to have missed an important word in a previous post.

something that's been needling at me for most of the game but only really become worth vocalizing is how much he has blended into the background

That should read "but only really became worth vocalizing recently is how much etc." Basically, I had been aware of it for a good chunk of time, but didn't think it worth mentioning until the line of his I quoted in that post.

/bed
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 29, 2010, 08:45:51 AM
MC: What, I make you feel uneasy because no one really thinks I'm suspicious?

Nah, you don't make me feel uneasy.

Low amount of peer review does make me a bit uneasy.  And I've never done a readthrough on you.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Roukanken on May 29, 2010, 09:19:33 AM
OK, for the record. 'I overreacted' is NOT an acceptable response, because otherwise it'd be a viable scum play to say any extension that they get called out on was an overreaction. Even then, that's a relatively small part of the argument which you're blowing out of proportion.

As for the unvote - you've gone off on a tangent. Explaining why you didn't do it isn't the problem, it's just the fact that you DIDN'T do it that is the problem. And there's nothing subjective about that, because anyone who wants to read through your posts will be able to verify that for half of Day 1 your vote was completely useless.

Why are you cautious about using your vote on Day 1? Because you're afraid people will agree with you and start a wagon? If you weren't convinced that Alice's lurking was a genuine scumtell - or at least something good enough to kick off D1 discussion - why'd you bring it up in the first place?

Kilga, I'm honestly confused as to why Town WOULDN'T want to get out of RVS as soon as possible. A 'wait and see' strategy only works if there's something to actually watch, so obviously there need to be people acting. Plus, a strategy like that is a good excuse for scum to contribute nothing for half of D1 on the basis of 'waiting for a real case to show up'. It's Day 1, people. Cases aren't coming from nowhere.

MC:
The fact I have to concede pretty much all of those points is probably a sign I've been tunnelling hard here. Apologies.

Xanth/Tai dispute...in terms of the actual debate, I'd agree that Tai is in the wrong, but on the other hand Xanth has allowed the discussion to take up his entire day and hasn't taken any time to hunt. Neither of them rang any alarm bells with me yesterday, but Tai's constant insistence on clarifying yesterday's case is anti-Town in that there's plenty of new information to talk about. Scum/scum distancing is unlikely, though, given that neither of them were in any real danger when the fight started, but I'm finding it hard to believe that there isn't one scum in that dispute, and gut is telling me Tai at the moment.

##Unvote: MC
##Vote: Taitoro


Subject to change if Xanth continues to offer nothing in terms of hunting elsewhere.

Snowfire has fallen off the face of the earth again, Noyn is on the verge of modkill, and Alice hasn't spoken all day. I am disappoint.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 29, 2010, 09:37:46 AM
Alright, here's the deal.  Still nothing from Noyn, but Andy has graciously decided to sub in.

He will go missing for a whole game day in about a week's time.  But honestly, while a long stretch of time, it is not only scheduled, but he will return when it is done.  Also, night will show up in the middle of that, so awesome.  (Or at least, I think so, have not actually mathed it out yet.)

So, Noyn's deadline is now basically moved to whenever Andy gets caught up.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 29, 2010, 09:44:27 AM
Andy is informing me that his sober second though makes him feel he may not be adequate.  So far as I am concerned, he would have to work very hard to be worse than the fellow he is replacing at this point, but honestly, I am in a good position to appreciate people thinking about such things before committing right now.

So, yes.  If Andy does not take it, and no one else volunteers (I do not have the time to go looking anymore, and have stopped caring enough to go looking) then I will happily kill him at day's end.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 29, 2010, 09:56:45 AM
Rereading my last statement, it looks like it can be easily misunderstood.  So, I will state that despite being somewhat frustrated with the course of events, there is only one person I am even slightly pissed off at, and hence, only one person who is causing my appreciation for Andy's thinking about things.
Title: Chocolate Voices Euphoria
Post by: Xanth on May 29, 2010, 11:23:55 AM
Okay, morning. As of starting writing this at 10:15am I have about four hours before people start banging on my door, as much as I hope to not have to use all of that here. It's enough that I will start with the next line in the sand with Tai.

Tai! I will apologise for frustration leading to language far too aggressive to be fruitful. But that is all. It really does feel like you're trying to play some game of lawyers to shut your eyes and play semantics around my position no matter how tightly I pull you around by the nose. Hanging on for the sake of hanging on.

Right here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108965.html#msg108965), you summarise your biggest problems with me being cherry-picking meta, bad simplification of Laggy, and stuff regarding QRou. In fairness, in my rush at the time I did not answer the third of those, which is that I was far more willing to give Rou a blank slate for QR given QR's charges of apparently very justified absence and bad vote than with Glen for Laggy, given how much more had built up on Laggy. And even then I still had a twinge over damning Glen for Laggy's actions. Rou has then blended into several other players, which is why I actually need to go and do some reading outside of this tiny zone.

But for the other two.

Are you in any way still claiming that I cherry-picked meta? Because I'm super certain that it's clear that I didn't, and when you responded here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109010.html#msg109010) this charge had mysteriously vanished without comment.

The other point is like frustration central, because it's like you need me to explain the need for the evocative tone of the simplification as part of drawing attention to what I want attention drawn to. It's part of the bloody oratory here. That and sticking to it being some form of misrep, which it really wasn't. Stop wriggling here as if it's some matter of subjective disagreement. Look.

At around about here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108411.html#msg108411), Laggy's case on Alice is for lurking, plain and simple. Yes? Okay.

Then this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108505.html#msg108505), his next [unborked] post comes after Snow voting for him. The modkill stuff aside, he adds the scumlurkAlice charge to his case of LaL (let's not forget that it hadn't even been 24 hours at this point, but it's irrelevant to this point). Agreed? Why yes, that's objective.

Then after my counter-example there is this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108513.html#msg108513). Just read that first line! "Who cares about one instance of townlurkAlice? Lurking that much is bad regardless." That's exactly what he says! Not exactly enough for you, apparently, but it's not like it even drops anything additional out of it or anything.

And then the offending line that you've clung to, located here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108604.html#msg108604): 'well that doesn't matter, lurking is bad'. That's what he said! And in context this was about how he dropped the meta to point vigorously back to the initial case of simple lurking. I think the only difference is that in the original line I've summed up 'one instance of townlurkAlice' to 'that', which is clear in both contexts. I think the only possible thing you can pull on at all is the later puppet show here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108656.html#msg108656), and that's if you're claiming that Laggy was in fact very brazenly and happily cherry-picking meta to support his case, in that the 'who cares about other cases?' there would be incorrect. In which case, lol, sorry, I guess I assumed that he'd backed down when a counter-example up to invalidate his claim, what with it never getting mentioned again and all.

But oh, no, you really are claiming that now. The 'correlation and dependence' thing is what really threw me over the edge into this being hideously desperate. It's even completely irrelevant here: Alice has lurked in every game I can think of (there's got to be a counter-example somewhere, right?), so the greater number of scumlurk nodes is only at the whims of game set up randomness. Worms mafia is the only one that comes to mind where he was / might have been active (could be misremembering - I was N1 kill there), and he was scum there. In fact, other instances of him being scum, meme mafia coming to mind for one, was of a different kind of lurking than what was on offer here and the townlurk in Cthulhu mafia. But argh, did I really need to go into so much detail here.

The other thing that got me with that post was the tone of 'let's agree to disagree... but I will use this to vote for you if need be'. In most of day 1 I'd have roughly accepted that, but not when your case has degenerated from conflicting priorities to the dodgery it is now.

...

On checking up, the one thing I got horribly wrong was the responsibility thing. I'm actually not sure how I hit that impression, as the only thing to that effect was the third paragraph pie here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108918.html#msg108918), taken to the effect of 'pie on my face, I was tricked'. That much I will apologise for and retract, but the apology should rather more be for trying to case-build while tired and frustrated without actually checking my sources. I was wrong!

Anyway, that took like an hour. Plenty of time left for the rest of the player base.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Carthrat on May 29, 2010, 12:00:51 PM
Tai: His case on Rou. Nobody should care about anti-early-LaL now; characterizing it as a scummy position this late troubles me, yet that is what has been done.. As for his first post, Rou in general can be afforded a little slack for not being thorough in his first post of the game, too, so even if it is slightly reportery...

Tai seems to be poking at trivialities, particularly here-

Quote from: Tai
* Next post: here. Okay, where to start? Misrep of MC's case on me (she voted me, explaining that I seemed unwilling to put any pressure on her. Which was, at the time, true) though the rest on MC isn't bad. Most people seem to miss the point of Laggyvote for Alice (Alice -always- seems to lurk, Rat doesn't but has different times. (Sorry, Alice~)). Stating that recording disagreement with the MC case isn't original content on Zenny's part, when it at least commits him to that paper trail. (Zenthor replied to the rest of the issues there, IIRC). SnowFire commentary I'm not honestly positive on accuracy, would need to reread SnowFire's comments. But that post doesn't impress. Switches vote to MC at end of this.

I'm still not sure why the post 'doesn't impress', if you're not sure about the accuracy on Snowfire and mostly find the MC content agreeable, how can you really point to a big problem with it? The rest of his case, I just don't get, because as far as I can see there isn't one; he just kinda surmizes a few Rou posts with iffy opinions, then goes 'not impressed, vote!' I can't see a clear reason to pick him.

I am then not liking how the Tai/Xanth fight developed at all, it grates to see Xanth taking the stance where "Tai is yelling at me. I must respond in triplicate to everything! It's eating into my scumhunting time!" as if it's somehow Tai's fault that he prioritizes responding to Tai (who wasn't even voting him!) over actually doing legwork. Tai does himself no favours by responding with blatant OMGUS, followed by a sympathy plea. I cannot say I'm wholly against the lynch of either party at the moment, and really the whole thing seems somewhat contrived. Offhand I think I dislike Xanth more than Tai, this woe-is-me, reactionary play does not seem natural at all.

Zenny!

Quote from: Zenthor
Carth Ninja.  O...kay, so MC was reporting before because she kept her vote on Xanth, but now on a re-read it's not that reportery?  Riiiiight.  I do accept the logic that newscum would lurk harder, though, so... I guess that's a valid enough point, though.
Think Kilga mentioned it, but my point was that up until when I changed my vote on MC, her posts had generally fit the reporting mold. Afterwards I believe there was a marked improvement, thus I am moving away from lynching her presently.

Not feeling so good about cases on Rou at the moment, I have the feeling he's getting pushed on stuff that, at least on d1, is excusable on account of late replacing; he also wasn't voting Zenny in the end, so...
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 29, 2010, 12:57:46 PM
Xanth: No, Laggy's case from start to finish on Alice had been that he will lurk forever until prodded to do so. The post you reference shorthanded this, and the fact that you're willing to explode -that- into a attack worries me. You've balked at shorthand and tried to raise paranoia about it multiple times, actually, about anti-LAL amongst other things.

And dodgery? No, I feel most solid on my case right now. Since, hey, let's add these small tidbits to the case:

* You've mostly only engaged the people you're attacking or who are attacking you; commentary on others has been minimal
* You're willing to resort to scummy tactics (rage) in order to attempt to push people off your case (and if you object to rage being called scummy, you have a long line of this tactic being used for scum in the DL to combat)
* You're also willing to be demeaning and try to treat me like shit in order to get me off your case

So, no. I apologize for any offense you've taken from my stuff - it hasn't been intentional. But you've been more than willing to try and scream my ear off. I'll be very blunt here - if you are Town, which this play definitely doesn't feel like? Act Town. Because as far as I'm concerned you haven't thus far, and if you are Town this has been one epically pointless slapfight for us.


Carthrat: Given the amount of people that jumped onto anti-LAL I'm willing to suspect that the scum likely gravitated into that option. One point I forgot to note is that QR was willing to go LAL - and yes, differences in playstyle, it proves nothing, but the willingness to reverse opinion at a point where "anti-LAL" was at its peak is interesting to me.

And yes, a lot of it was him catching up, but it still feels like very unsteady/already stated content, even in D2 (regarding Makkotah/Zenthor, at least). My vote landed on him because of that - I'm not terribly fond of the content I've seen (he skimmed the third paragraph of my case with a token rebuttal, but) but it's been better in D2 some.


Okay, I didn't really want to do this but since it seems Noyn is probably gonna end up modkilled and I'm currently a voteleader, Roukanken. Did QR get anything tasty N0? Not asking you to claim any effects or anything else that happened that night right now, just asking if she got anything tasty. Yes, this leads into a partial(ly worthless) roleclaim.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Carthrat on May 29, 2010, 01:02:19 PM
Quote from: Tai
Given the amount of people that jumped onto anti-LAL I'm willing to suspect that the scum likely gravitated into that option

Well sure okay, but I don't think 'a majority/several/some number' of people believing a thing makes believing that thing inherently scummy?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 29, 2010, 01:07:47 PM
And a slight EBWOP: Rou's most recent post also helps me reconsider his case some (in part content, in part vibes - but pretty much the entire post is well thought out and written (EXCEPT THE VOTE ON ME HOW COULD YOU DO THAAAT eh you think it's right, my job to convince otherwise, neh?). Eh, no regrets for my vote on what I felt was lower-/poorer- content material, but unless I spot problems with the content further on, don't think I'm shifting back for the time being.

NINJA Rat: Nnnnn kinda? The more people that take an opinion, the more easily it can be used/subverted for scum on average, and the more suspicious a swelling opinion like that becomes. At least that's the way I reason things.

Doing a SnowFire reread at the moment, back in a bit.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 29, 2010, 02:15:55 PM
The cook's body was a dreadful sight.

Not once had the Harmonian soldiers thought their leader capable of such feats.

Alas.

Sasarai found it rather fitting the cook be forced to eat mackerel for lunch.


Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (1): Snowfire
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat
Taitoro (3): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

11 Stars of Destiny gathered, maximum party size is 6 who can gang up and lynch one person!

Evidently my watch is wrong. The Day should end at May 30, 2010, 03:35:35 PM PST. I'll try and see where I made an error of conversion and post up the correct time at a later point.
Title: Perfect Rocky Chalk
Post by: Xanth on May 29, 2010, 03:03:45 PM
Huge post to cover the prior lack. Wouldn't normally do something as big as this if not for how time pressures have sucked me out of the game. On that count, the reason this has happened is because it's the first time I've started a game during my really busy period at work. It actually started partway through Cthulhu Mafia - you'll note how I dropped off in a similar manner after my resurrection there. No call for mercy or anything, but just to explain since it seems to be confusing some people.


I'll probably provide a tl;dr summary of the important parts after this one if (when) it turns out to be too big, so feel free to skip to that unless you want to pick at the small print.

Also, I've left the players (less myself and Tai - although having said that I probably should still review him outside his case on me at some point) in starting post order, but will be writing them up in a different order (for instance, starting with Noyn because it's easy). Shouldn't matter, but might result in a few things not following on between players.


1.  Kilga

Kilga actually raised my hackles a little early on for the completely pointless spec on Noyn's votelessness, given that it was a null tell for all involved (I can see plenty of reasons for town or scum alike to apply votelessness / lower the role status of a newbie - can explain if need be but hopefully not?) and he reached bizarrely specific conclusions from it. Especially with his past self (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108479.html#msg108479) partially berating him about doing it. Twice (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108547.html#msg108547). But sure, hot topic at the time and forewarned (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108593.html#msg108593), so far less what led him there as the conclusions drawn being lol wut.

That aside and sidelined, solid early play. Pushes all the right buttons. Lots of key stuff, not all regurgitated from elsewhere (first thing to look out for when worried about a 'me too' ploy). Incisive and generally all in line (and yeah, almost always in complete agreement with what's being said, as already noted). If there's scum play at all it would be in anything left conspicuously unsaid, but looking for that is like five times harder than reading what he has said, and I'm comfortable enough with what I do see not to bother at this point.

Only other wurgle I'm really getting from day one (other than maybe being a little hardline on Metroid here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108658.html#msg108658)) would be here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108717.html#msg108717), where QR is apparently his second top candidate despite garnering one mention earlier and lots of dialogue on others since. It's this that set off the panic alarms about buddying up to me, seeing as this mirrored my own position without evidently actually being his own. I can see how it can resolve with her being his second candidate, but wurgle wurgle wurgle.

Going into the overnight stuff, I'm boggling a bit at how quiet you (yeah, my pronouns are horribly inconsistent, but never mind) are about Alice (directly, rather than discussing other people's opinions on Alice), which on a further look pans out through most of the rest of time. I mean, bits and pieces, but far less proportionally than I'd expect given the prominence, and a little more defence than I find comfortable. Especially given that it's only Ciato's move that causes this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108798.html#msg108798) to actually come out against the train (but I think(?) my play is probably fairly similar given how cautious I was over Laggy's super-early push on Alice as an easy target). Yeah, this is what bothers me the most about his play so far, and marring otherwise pretty solid play.


2.  Metroid Composite

Newbie play to the max, as already largely covered by myself and others. Really not a fan of the game summary posts that were breeding grounds for reporting and misrepping in particular, and the early spell of parking the vote on me before deciding it should be for low content. Generally lots of opinions I disagree with (of newest stuff, oh man 'gut feeling' that I'm worse than Tai), and often a rather strict approach as to what counts as content and not, but I still stand by it being newbie play rather than scumtainted. There are a few things that still stick out despite that, primarily the aforementioned stuff, but there's just so much erratic play in there that I can't imagine scumbuddies not pulling on the reins a bit, and even if taking that risk then something really obvious slipping out at one point or another, which I can't fish out.

I wouldn't say I'm completely comfortable with letting everything go, but as things are I can't see my vote going in this direction, as accepting it from a newbie angle I think Metroid's heart has been largely in the right place, keeping a wide outlook on the player base as a whole. The two things from today that make me stumble at all are the gut feeling (but eh, it's only bad depending on how it develops), and this back and forth with Snowfire regarding night actions, given how it conveniently reinforces the two of them, and after other similar claims had been made. I'm also a little concerned about this in general, as assuming each such case required someone else to act on them for it to happen (what happened to me last night was definitely due to someone else) then with Makkotah's downgrade we're already looking at well over half of the player base interacting and not crossing wires. But not in a way I can really pursue role analysis yet. And anyway yeah, this wurgle would be dependent on scumSnow for scumMetroid to be pushable. I'd call it off as implausible if not for Snow's defence of Metroid on top of this.

Oh, and randomly for your benefit re: Ciato NK1: Ciato's terrifyingly good at scumhunting, so it's unsurprising whenever she gets NKed, even if she couldn't be bothered with playing day 1. There's no point trying to draw anything out from it.


6.  Alice

I was overly wary about the Alice train due to Laggy's push, and Metroid to a growingly lesser degree, although obviously only in combination with a not especially negative direct impression.

Lurking is bad but almost inevitable, and top that with the aggression as expected and we'll leave those at the door. I actually find nothing wrong with a lot of his arguments posed, but then the scum by statistics theory breaks out and is utterly ridiculous. In fact yeah, once you translate it through Alice standards I actually only have an issue with that mind-boggling position of all that's been said (which I suppose in turn lessens the subsidiary suspicion held on Kilga). I think some issue was taken over him calling Glen a newbie but not Metroid? The position reads believable enough as I see it, and I'd take it as a null read regardless. That being said, 'it's Alice' is no excuse for long run low content and I'd kind of hoped that the lesson would have been learned by now, so there's only so long I can overlook the low presence.


10. Noyn

Oh, please let me call him Noyndy, even assuming that Andy doesn't fill those boots.

That is all (typical borderline modkill lurker position otherwise). I'd speculate on the possibility of the votelessness being the 'lower' state of his role and how that might of happened, but it seems super pointless to do so now.


...

Hahaha oh wow, I write as slowly as a crippled turtle with dyslexia and a streak for perfectionism. Yeah, board games happening downstairs now, and I haven't got through half the players, including all of the ones I was murkiest on. You know, the actually important ones. I'm going to continue to write the rest downstairs while the games happen, but warning that the posts may well run through into evening. (I have at least tidied the formatting a little to reflect the review only being partial)

I'm clearly totally out of whack, as I didn't think there was quite so little time left (was 30 hours intended, maybe?).

Also spoilers for current thoughts, I'm expecting to take a large gamble and move off Tai. Still don't have the slightest clue what he thinks he's doing (and has posted again, and among other things still has nothing to say about the supposedly major cherry picking meta point), but this is considering my own past performances (as in, prior experience arguing town against town and scum), horrible sportsmanship meta about how he couldn't possibly be intentionally trying to make my life so hard if he is scum, and more by how the day is shaping up so far today, or the lack thereof. It's rather early for me to be saying this, as I expect the move to be to one of the people I haven't reviewed yet. At a push I'd guess most likely Snow or maybe QRou at this point? But really, rest of the review before I get there.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 29, 2010, 04:17:45 PM
SnowFire!

* This (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108556.html#msg108556) post garnered attention from others. I can kind of see the issue, but I can also see where SnowFire comes from here with the logic presented (yes, it takes times for lurkers to come out, this is self evident, does Rat have nothing else to contribute? MC thing was the only poke of anything resembling content, and it was itself reportery ("X is reporting" is reporting). Sure, it's something, but SnowFire calling Rat out on it is understandable.

* Skipping posts because people seem to dislike it when I make comments I don't expect replies to or mental working things out comments...

* This (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108784.html#msg108784) is kinda interesting, on the other hand. Unwilling to vote Glen for the claim due to the power role claim, despite the claim that it makes him more likely to be scum? I mean, I understand hesitation since the role wasn't fully uncovered, but... mmm. Also goes after Alice mainly on gut read and not liking Alice's cases, despite preferring Rat based on the sound of it. Then again he wasn't around at deadline in theory. On the other hand, he pretty much removed any competition for the lynch other than Glen (Rat) by moving his vote to someone with only one vote (Alice)... and doesn't consider (vocally) the other person with only one vote (Xanth). But then again no one was considering Xanth, heh. Still, odd enough behavior that it merits noting, at least to me. (Counting on Ciato/MC to move to Alice couldn't have been assured - we know at least Ciato was 3P).

* Was nodding along to this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108926.html#msg108926) until I hit the "Suspicions" section where it went into summary mode. Threw me for a loop, and I can't really trace some of the comments he made there. Would be interested in elaboration of this.

...and that last post has been it from him this game day. Somewhat disconcerting. Still, overall a slight positive read, with the day 1 vote tomfoolery being the only real balking point.


Xanth side comment: I've little more to say about my case on you, and I pretty much refuse to engage in WoT wars with you - or even attempt to read through and grab your points from those walls. Specific points, as I said, state them point blank and I'll probably respond, even though frankly I'm not terribly motivated to given your play thus far. And I'd act surprised at a foreshadowed move off of me, or at the attempted sympathy card play, except I'm really honestly not. Vote still stands.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Roukanken on May 29, 2010, 04:55:06 PM
Roukanken. Did QR get anything tasty N0? Not asking you to claim any effects or anything else that happened that night right now, just asking if she got anything tasty. Yes, this leads into a partial(ly worthless) roleclaim.
Huh. Yes, I got something tasty N0.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 29, 2010, 05:07:51 PM
Okay. For the record, I don't actually know what my role does (other than gives tasty somethings), but if QR had felt it was harmful she would have spoken up. If the role has use, keep it to yourself and don't worry about it. (By your reaction, if it had been harmful I would think you'd have attacked me.)

My N1 target was Noyn, hoping that maybe my role could somehow cure votelessness. However, we'll not figure this out at this point, I suspect. Which leads me to an amusing point: Kilga's speculation on the Noyn votelessness (scum did it but unintentionally!) made me wonder if my role was similar in design, so even outside of shutting up Noyn votelessness speculation it wasn't entirely worthless.

I don't see any point in saying my rolename but can do so if desired. Basically here you go. I'm doing this now because as Town I have an obligation to try and ensure that town's best weapon (lynch) isn't used on someone I know is town (me) even if no one else believes me. For the record, however, I've foreshadowed -both the food I give out- and -who I am- in topic, albeit a bit sloppily.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 29, 2010, 05:23:49 PM
EBWOP: *I THINK if my role was harmful QR would have spoken up (saying something about getting affected by a role N0). I don't know that she would have or not. Apologies, reread and I sound more certain than should be taken as.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 29, 2010, 06:54:46 PM
Blah. And Noyn's not likely to be able to collaborate reports of getting something tasty either. mutter mutter.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 29, 2010, 08:01:57 PM
Oh God quote stripes.

Kilga, I'm honestly confused as to why Town WOULDN'T want to get out of RVS as soon as possible. A 'wait and see' strategy only works if there's something to actually watch, so obviously there need to be people acting. Plus, a strategy like that is a good excuse for scum to contribute nothing for half of D1 on the basis of 'waiting for a real case to show up'. It's Day 1, people. Cases aren't coming from nowhere.

You're asking the wrong guy to explain this properly; you can see how much stock I put into holding back early on just by look at this game. >_> I've seen it enough here to not believe it particularly scummy, though. Some people perhaps just believe the vote is more sacred than others do, or they wish to be surer than anything ED1 can provide before using their vote in a serious manner and will deign to use voteless discussion to produce cases they can get behind.

Xanth: No, Laggy's case from start to finish on Alice had been that he will lurk forever until prodded to do so.

Come on, you can't be serious with this. Let me bring it up, since it doesn't seem like Xanth pointing it out is going to do a lot of good given the circumstances.

I will not rely on modkills to handle anything (not voting someone because their inactivity warrants a modkill is silly until the modkill actually happens) and I will use metagame galore to confer that Alice's lurkiness has been a great cover for scum play before and, in the absence of other tangible leads at the moment, I will continue to follow up on it.

Specifically:

I will use metagame galore to confer that Alice's lurkiness has been a great cover for scum play before

How can you continue to dispute that Laggy was not trying to use Previous Game Alice Meta in support of his case? I don't know how much clearer Laggy could have been than this.

Also not liking this back-and-forth with Rat:

Carthrat: Given the amount of people that jumped onto anti-LAL I'm willing to suspect that the scum likely gravitated into that option. One point I forgot to note is that QR was willing to go LAL - and yes, differences in playstyle, it proves nothing, but the willingness to reverse opinion at a point where "anti-LAL" was at its peak is interesting to me.

Quote from: Tai
Given the amount of people that jumped onto anti-LAL I'm willing to suspect that the scum likely gravitated into that option

Well sure okay, but I don't think 'a majority/several/some number' of people believing a thing makes believing that thing inherently scummy?

NINJA Rat: Nnnnn kinda? The more people that take an opinion, the more easily it can be used/subverted for scum on average, and the more suspicious a swelling opinion like that becomes. At least that's the way I reason things.

I don't see how either of the things being discussed here - Roukan being an anti-early-LAL guy, and Roukan's stance differing from QR's - can be taken as anything other than null tells at best.

* Given the number of people that were anti-early-LAL, statistically it is very possible that at least one scum was in that group. How does that make being in that group a scumtell? How is this any different than just Hatbotting four our five people, determining it's statistically likely that one is scum, and then using the arbitrary group as a point against someone?  What about the inherent nature of an early-LAL-stance makes it likely that multiple scum piled on, as opposed to, say, a bunch of townies all thinking it's the right play? I don't even know how scum could "use/subvert" an anti-early-LAL policy.
* "Willingness to reverse opinion" is really trying to paint Roukan as bad considering he was never on record as being pro-early-LAL (only QR was). Maybe it was a scum flip-flop, or maybe it's just his playstyle. (For what it's worth coming from an unknown, I'm pretty sure Roukan is inherently anti-early-LAL as a player, based on the games I've played and the talks I've had with him.) You even admit the whole thing "proves nothing" but decide to call it "interesting" anyway, which I can only assume is an attempt to cast his opinion in a negative light while trying to avoid the null tell nature of the "point". What is "interesting" about it?

Both of these really read more as trying to mold the evidence to fit the case than actually trying to scumhunt.

---

Xanth: In terms of QR, I wasn't happy with her for doing nothing but vote for lurkers, and the unhappiness only grew as she continued to be absent. (Obviously the absence was forgiven after learning of the cause, but I can hardly be faulted for disliking it while it was still unexplained.) MC and Zenny suspicions had come and gone, and at least in the case of Zenny I think I provided adequate explanation for why he would have been placed back below QR, if not also in the MC case (though I admit the explanation was short and easy to miss since it's just a half of a line here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108593.html#msg108593)). In terms of Alice, at the time I hadn't seen a lot from him that I didn't like, and I didn't much like the cases brought against him, so I've been giving him a pseudopass since on the grounds of "crappy arguments are more likely to appear against town that scum". Why did Ciato in particular set me off? Her vote felt like the largest momentum shift toward Alice yet, both in terms of the sheer numbers and the people behind the votes, so I wanted to get my opinion in then.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 29, 2010, 08:20:15 PM
H'okay, going over the Tai/Xanth debauchery. 

Tai's initial XanthAnalysis (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108965.html#msg108965) I'm... not sure what Tai means when he says Xanth cherry picked meta*.  I will admit that I'm not too fond of the way Xanth misrepresented Laggy's dismissal of TownLurkAlice, but that doesn't strike me as a scumtell, and I think too much is made out of the point.  He doesn't vote for Xanth yet, but states him as a clear number two behind Roukanken.

*If Tai is talking about Xanth focusing on the time Alice Townlurked while ignoring the times Alice Scumlurked... frankly, that's a worse misrepresentation than Xanth's of Laggy.  And yes, Xanth, that is a misrepresentation, not "squeezing the essence of what he said." 

I'll state here that also don't think much of Xanth's "Laggy cherry-picked meta!" argument, the more I think about it. I understand it now, yes, but Laggy also pretty clearly addressed why he "cherry picked meta."  Throwing out one outlier because Alice will lurk until pressured seems pretty damn sound to me.

Here's where I start to not like Xanth's argument at all (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109015.html#msg109015).

Quote
Maybe I'll respond to your new semantics in the morning, but it's got to the point where I swear you're just rewording things to make it seem like you don't understand something slightly different (or not at all different) for a sense of satisfaction that it makes sense for you to be able to vote for me, rather than actually giving two figs about whether I'm scum or not ("I really think he's scum! Oh, but no one else is voting for him, so eh, I guess I'll just give up" is not good for town, as depressing as it may be to be in that position).

Poor sportsmanship aside (HAH! Kettle, je m'appel Pot) this is pretty damn laughable.  For one, I don't really see how Tai's rewording things to make it seem  like he doesn't understand you; he's got a pretty valid point about your early play with Laggy.  Do I think he's making too much out of it?  Perhaps.  Do I find it incredibly odd that you're accusing him of twisting words around to make them fit his case while you accuse him of only not placing his vote on you because nobody else had?  Definitely; that's not even close to the truth--this is the guy who tried to get a endday Yoshiken train started, and he voted for Roukanken when nobody else had.  If in that parenthetical you were in fact referring to his votes on Yoshi, you did it in the most obtuse way possible.

However, do I think this raeg was a scummy attempt to goad Tai deeper into this little spat? Not really.  People get annoyed when you ask them to repeat themselves over and over and over.

The posts from these two to each other that come after seem to me to be belaboring the points already made, though I may go back to them later.

To conclude... They both look equally bad to me, perhaps with Xanth looking ever-so-marginally worse.  Tai's made too much out of Xanth's Day 1 play, and if Tai's comment about Xanth cherry picking meta means what I think it means that is a terrible misrepresentation (which Tai seems to admit to (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109010.html#msg109010), to a degree.)  I do agree with him, though, that at least one scum may have taken up the Anti-EarlyLaL position to disassociate himself with other scum, and I do agree that some of his points on Xanth are valid, misrep aside.  On the other hand, Xanth looks pretty bad, too, for being wholly dismissive of Tai's valid points (this is the main contributing reason is why Xanth looks slightly worse to me than Tai, for the record; "No this is not worth arguing about what are you stupid?" means very little to me unless you're confirmed town), and for that misrep of his own (if that's what it is and not just him being sloppy with his writing because of raeg).  Xanth may look better or worse once I go over his analysis of other players, but I want to get this out there before I do that.

Though they both look bad, I would be surprised if both were scum and one was trying to bus the other so early in the game.  I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if both flipped town or ITP, but I think it's more likely that one of them is scum. 

Ninjas, will address later when I address things not-slap fight related.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 29, 2010, 08:33:53 PM
Argh.  Had half-a-post I was fiddling with last night, but didn't really get anything coherent with it, and decided to get some sleep instead.  And then woke up at 2:00 PM.  ARGH ARGH.

Taishyr: * Was nodding along to this post until I hit the "Suspicions" section where it went into summary mode. Threw me for a loop, and I can't really trace some of the comments he made there. Would be interested in elaboration of this.

Sure.  Actually need to update this anyway.

* Alice: Not much else to say here, though!  I'll admit that my case is mostly based on his first few posts, as his later posts didn't really involve scumhunting.  And nothing has changed.
* Roukanken: I continue to be unhappy with Rou.  Previously I only read his comments on mc and myself closely, and he just plain misinterpreted some of the comments (like the one Taishyr called out where he claimed Laggy was critiquing the early-Rat train).  And today we have... 
Snowfire has fallen off the face of the earth again
Gee thanks.  "Again," too?

My biggest problem with Roukanken is that even when not mis-interpreting, he's putting the worst possible spin on a lot of things.  He's backed off from mc now at least because yeah, that felt...  rehashed and not well thought out.  To put things another way, the reason I don't like Rou is that pretend you are scum replacing into a game without much record before.  Why not hop on the easiest and most current train?  Which was MC at the time Rou joined up, and then Rou pursued it early Day 2 assuming everyone else would come along.

I guess Carthrat has a point that this could just be "late replacement" syndrome and he missed things, but ack.  I do not like this.  Also, in reply to Rou himself...

(snip) I'M VOTING LAGGY ANYWAY BECAUSE HE WANTS TO BE LAZY ON DAY 1'. Also unimpressed with the fact you've basically said 'yeah I agree with Tai' the instant he produces a case against me in what feels like a pseudo-OMGUS.

Why, yes.  And not "anyway," it was "I'm voting Laggy because he wants to be lazy."  There's something to be said for "compress arguments to their unflattering core" but you're just trying too hard here.

* Carthrat ramblings: Yeah they were kind of rambles.  I will say that Carth's Day 2 posts have made a lot of sense to me...  so he's looking better there, no doubt.  His case on Zenny for not doing much substantive seems the best argument against Zenny I've seen so far, though I think there are better cases to pursue.

* Xanth vs. Taishyr: Newer, but it seems I've been beaten to the punch by Rat & Zenny.  My opinion is exactly the same as theirs off my initial reading - that both of them look the scummier for this dispute, with Xanth looking slightly worse because it's out-of-character for him.

Ack.  And have to leave now.  Guess I better just post what I have, will try and return and do some more late Day 2 analysis later, since my handle on recent events is weaker than the Day 1 nonsense.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 29, 2010, 08:37:15 PM
Okay. To reply to Kilga (and thanks for pointing that out) - okay, simplest way I can do this:

1) Okay. So first, let's establish what we think Laggy was actually saying, since this is probably where most of the damn confusion is coming from (that and my frustration with having to explain a dead guy, since you just referenced one point, Kilga, at which I just shrunk the case into bitesized. Apologies, you're right to snap at me for that; I've just stopped caring and I've only been responding to what's been quoted at me. What you're quoting there was me replying to/paraphrasing a point about this, I think (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108411.html#msg108411). Go ahead and bite at me if you wanna say I'm rewriting history but my patience for dealing with Xanth after a certain point went to near-zero and I've just been firing quickresponses). Here's what I'm getting, from a reread of day 1 (and I admit to paraphrasing his words in part but that's just for the sake of this exercise):

"I, Laggy, am voting and keeping my vote on Alice until content is produced. This is being done for the following reasons: Alice has used his lurking tendencies to hide his scum affiliation before in multiple other games and I believe this to be a valid read (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108505.html#msg108505). I am not concerned about other players "lurking" at this point in the game, as it is early. However, Alice has done this before, and is likely to be doing this again (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108411.html#msg108411). That you can name one instance of this lurking hiding town instead of scum does not invalidate this strategy given that it has been used so often for hiding scum!Alice. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108513.html#msg108513) However, if a valid reason is provided for such an absence, I am willing to shift my vote (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108527.html#msg108527)."

Kilga, will you agree that that's a decent reading of what he was saying? I know it's how I read him for most of day 1, but apparently I have mindprobes or something forbidding me from competent conversation. I'll go further once we're done hashing that out.

Regarding the second half of your post: it's how my brain works on the anti-LAL, and frankly I suspect more than one scum in the group, but. And how do they subvert it? Oh, I don't know, use it as an attack point on a townie that's pushing early LAL and backing it with meta about how the person tends to be scum and tends to be lurking. Just a guess, though!

"proves nothing" isn't the same as "indicates nothing". Doesn't mean it's a worthless thing to keep in mind. Does mean that it's hardly a be all end all and that jumping on Rou for jumping away from QR's case would be idiotic and I'd merit beatings via wet fish. It's mainly interesting just because of the sudden dynamic shift (I'd be wondering what the person I'm replacing into was thinking, even early on - that willingness to voteshift and decry the opinion was simply eyecatching, and thus interesting) This being said, you confirming that he'd be against this sort of thing anyway is a decent help - Roukanken's not someone I have a good measure on in this regard. So.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 29, 2010, 09:44:47 PM
WoT again, hopefully my final one.

Right, actually, you know what? Doesn't quite matter if Kilga agrees with the summary, it's how I read Laggy. Then, with that in mind, let's reboil my Xanth case down. I apologize again for resummarizing (and probably rewriting history on some accounts here, though I'll try to explain or avoid rewriting whenever possible); will wade through my page 10/11 posts and attempt to clarify/summarize. Hopefully this will both give him something coherent to respond to (I hope this ends up coherent) and I can remain coherent myself when he does.

Xanth, don't get upset or anything, this is mainly just explanation/expository, though responding if you want, sure.

* The basic part was contained here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108534.html#msg108534) - the attack on Laggy over QR seemed faulty.

* And my followup to his justification here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108604.html#msg108604) is here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108619.html#msg108619). I still stand by my comment here - the lurkering that Alice tends to specialize in is what Laggy was prodding for here, and forcing some content instead of a breeze day 1 may turn out to be a boon to us. (At the least, I think this entire argument will ensure no one forgets about Alice and his lurking habits during this game.)

* Finally, this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108756.html#msg108756) final paragraph was me beginning to wonder precisely why the meta/cherry picking accusation on Laggy was being so pressed - it was probably at this point that I realized that while Laggy had the examples of multiple scum/lurk meta to back up, it was Xanth choosing just Chthulu Mafia to try and disprove it that rankled. Hence the mountain/molehill comment. (I can't confirm this is what happened 100%. I am toro, I don't have the greatest of memory spans right now. Mafia's fun as a result. But I'm pretty sure that was the logic process.)

Amusingly, Xanth's the first one to accuse -me- of reducing -his- argument to meta cherry picking here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108919.html#msg108919). My reply above just says I'm still not satisfied with his case on Laggy, so... uh, okay? I think this was where my mood went sour, as I certainly didn't -feel- like my case was simply meta cherry picking - and he should've known that, he had been responding to me.

* I then posted my analysis here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108965.html#msg108965), the one that seems to have launched all this. His response: here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108984.html#msg108984). Perhaps it'd help if I gave a serious, if brief, summary to your own bullet points?

** Well, that and I neglected to add the ignoring QR thing to the mix, but basically, no, you didn't directly counter his argument. If you did, there could be no confusion here, but there is - you simply provided a counterexample. But this isn't science where one counterexample can ruin a while theory, it's closer to statistics.
** I bluntly disagree: you both cherry-picked meta. Happy? He chose the ones that supported his case (a large amount.) You chose one or two that didn't. This is more along the lines of correlation, attempting to "prove his meta wrong" with one or two could not reasonably happen - it just shows a chance. But the odds were still far on his side, and so was the meta as a result. This is what I've been trying to get at recently.
** Addressed this earlier - "pot, kettle, black" wasn't a reference to you/Laggy but you/me, wasn't meant offensively, and yeah, I think you badly took Laggy's words out of context of the case he was trying to make.
** This is the sort of thing you've called people on in previous games (hi, C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER) - leaving room to slip out of a stance. Sorry, but hey. I still don't object to pointing it out. Does it mean 100% scum on your end? No. Is it another thing I was watching for? Sure.
** Nah, that all makes sense. Not blaming anyone for not switching to Yoshiken. Again, I've got a lot of crow to eat for events there.
** I suck at boiling down stuff, I think is evident now? Apologies for the confusion. But honestly you've done nothing to make me regret pushing this case.

* This (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109010.html#msg109010) and Xanth's civil reply here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109074.html#msg109074) - I'm just going to ever so kindly point out that you in your reply state "In fairness, in my rush at the time I did not answer the third of those," early on, and then proceed to hammer me for not mentioning part of my own case when we've been trading jabs back and forth constantly. The case is kinda known on both sides, I would think. To abandon a part of the case without stating so is not in my intent, but to attack me over what you yourself have done is rather hypocritical. As for the rest of it, well, I think you can read my summary of how I read Laggy - mayhaps that'll reduce the confusion over these points? Part of me is just wondering how you aren't seeing it, though, but. I don't know.


Put very simply, Xanth? If you're not scum, convince me that someone else is. At this point I think I've flushed my own anger out of my system, and I'm willing to listen to and parse your cases. Because perhaps the most damning thing to me, throughout this case? I THINK YOU'RE SMARTER THAN I AM. This is why this behavior confuses the crap out of me. Attempting to influence me with emotions (since that honestly feels like what's been going on (another partial pot-kettle moment, though I haven't done anger at all)), the inconsistency (because yeah, I think that calling some of this inconsistent is a fair summary) and the brutal misreadings of Laggy - since that's what they seem to me - seem so goddamn unlike you that I have to think at this point that you pressed the case on Laggy to get an easier lynch. If you aren't scum, help us find scum. When you're on your game I know you're better at it than I can be by leagues. But right now I don't have any other person I suspect higher, due to what I've seen in game thus far. Deal?

Going to go reread Zenthor and the activity floating around him.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 29, 2010, 10:05:39 PM
He, he, he.  You do yourself no favors as far as I'm concerned, Rou.

OK, for the record. 'I overreacted' is NOT an acceptable response, because otherwise it'd be a viable scum play to say any extension that they get called out on was an overreaction. Even then, that's a relatively small part of the argument which you're blowing out of proportion.

As for the unvote - you've gone off on a tangent. Explaining why you didn't do it isn't the problem, it's just the fact that you DIDN'T do it that is the problem. And there's nothing subjective about that, because anyone who wants to read through your posts will be able to verify that for half of Day 1 your vote was completely useless.

See, now you misunderstand (misrepresent, given I had already clarified this to Kilga at the time of your post?) my case on you.  It isn't that you didn't understand these things--and, by and large, your posts indicated that you didn't.  Here's the original statement that prompted this:

Quote from: Roukanken
His vote was still lying on Ciato that whole time, and Ciato doesn't come up in his suspicions at all, even for a throwaway 'needs to post'.

The implication, as I read it here, is that the problem is that my vote is on Ciato.  The explanation I gave for not moving my vote was clearly stated in a post that you linked to and dismissed out of hand.  Now, if your problem really was the fact that I didn't move my vote (for that matter, if your problem really was that "I overreacted" isn't a good enough explanation...), you could have made that case from the start by reading the very posts you linked to and painted as devoid of content.  

You did not.

Quote
Why are you cautious about using your vote on Day 1? Because you're afraid people will agree with you and start a wagon? If you weren't convinced that Alice's lurking was a genuine scumtell - or at least something good enough to kick off D1 discussion - why'd you bring it up in the first place?

As I said, I'm more conservative with my vote than others seem to be around here.  As far as I'm concerned, tossing your vote around willy nilly simply looks bad (see Xanth's more legitimate point about Laggy), dilutes the weight of the opinion of every vote thereafter, and frankly I had no strong opinions about anyone at that point in time.  I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but perhaps I didn't and I just think that because of pattern recognition... but I brought up Alice's lurking in defense of Laggy.  I thought (still think, will think) going after Laggy because he was doing the EarlyLaL thing was supremely stupid.  This does not mean, however, that I was ready to place a vote on Alice--this, I have addressed before in one of those "devoid-of-content" posts.

---

Carth, Carth, Carth.  Really?  "I said Zenny was OMGUSing and look at that he switches his vote to someone who wasn't voting him HMM HMM HMM" I can't tell if you're being scummy or if I just plain don't like you this game.

---

Snowfire Analysis:  Last time on Wall of Text Z, I got bored reading through this and just found myself nodding along with his posts.  "Yep, I agree with that.  Yep, agree with that.  Seems good.  Sounds good.  Agree with that.  WAaaaaaaaaaaait a minute this isn't useful!"  So I did a re-read, and... well, frankly, through Day 1, it's mostly the same.  At this point I also notice Rou doing the whole "reading but not really" thing with Snow's posts.  I'm more and more confident in my Rou vote by the second.  Honestly, I don't get much of a read on him one way or another.  Sure, I agree with a lot of what he's saying, but that doesn't say much about his alignment I guess.  I think I'm more pleased with his Day 1 play than I am his Day 2 play, but he's just recently shown up again so that doesn't say much either.  The one thing I do have on him is his case on Alice, which I'll get into... well, now.

Alice: As much as I don't like that he's not around, it makes re-reading him mercifully brief.  Completely misreads Laggy in his first post, says he agrees with Xanth's case on Laggy, then proceeds to vote MC for reportering.  Uh, what.  Ignoring my own opinions on the validity of MC reportering charges... that just doesn't make any sense.  She misunderstood Laggy almost to the point of absurdity and agreed with an established case against him, but votes MC in a throwaway line.  Already talked about how stupid the "Glen is a noob but MC isn't" malarky was.  Also votes Snowfire for reasons that amount to whether or not the MC reporting charge is valid and a misread of Snow's opinions of Carthrat.  Later, statistics stupidity, some hypocrisy, and a dash of lolwut (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108774.html#msg108774).  Seriously?  Given her previous opinions on Laggy and her comments to Glen, she still votes MC for lack of content?  Just... what?  That... agh, THAT'S JUST SO STUPID!  He gets less sure about Glen as the day draws to a close but leaves his vote on MC.

This in turn makes me ever-slightly happier with Snowfire.  His case on Alice is sound; Alice's case on MC is entirely based on the reporting nonsense, and Alice has done some horrible misreading not just of Snowfire but also of Laggy.  

That SAID... Going back to my previous analysis... well, I think I can still see Carth not being able to process a case on Alice, for similar reasons why others and I write off the reporting charge on MC's early play--familiarity with the person's way of thinking.  From my minimal experience with Alice, he... well, put generously, his way of thinking is incredibly foreign to me (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4828.msg107056.html#msg107056). (Link is to Cthulhu mafia, only there to cite what I'm talking about.)  

To state my opinion on Alice clearly, I am personally not happy with Alice's play but can totally see not being able to formulate a case on him due to familiarity with the way he operates.  

I think that's everyone.  tl;dr: Alice needs to show up and post more and his arguments are trash, but he's still not as scummy to me as Rou.  Most likely one of Xanth/Tai is scum but not both, small chance both are town.  Distrust of Carth stems from his dismissiveness, irritation, gut feeling and things he's already explained away to my satisfaction.  Yoshiken's next on the list by virtue of the irritation.  Pretty happy with Snow/Kilga/MC.  Noyn is currently a non issue.

Tai Ninja!

God damn it god damn it god damn it.  No, I'm going to go do something else. Mafia has eaten away 4 hours today already.  Fuck that.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 29, 2010, 11:39:55 PM
And I do apologize for the WoTing response re: my case after saying I wouldn't do it, I mainly did so out of part frustration and part feeling like I needed to just coalesce the damn case together again for the sake of coherency. Idly, if we need proof I was clueless on the deadline function despite Excal's post, this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108828.html#msg108828) was during the deadline phase and catches my derp mindset decently well. Anyway. Zenthor!

* Has the Rat train vote panic. ...eh. Null tell. (Why null tell after I harped on it earlier? Because it hit me how few games Zenthor's really played in. I'm not sure I can hold it against him, he's semi-new to Mafia IIRC. Had Alex, say, done this I would be really skeptical, but this is probably the first game this many votes has accumulated this quickly with no comment for him, in hindsight.) He admits this was stupid immediately after the logic's pointed out. (This is why Rou harping on it is something I balk at.) Defends his reaction here, (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108525.html#msg108525) - people kept harping on him about it, so defensiveness isn't terribly unnatural.

* Admits fault and doesn't get defensive (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108599.html#msg108599) when Kilga attacks him on the Xanth/Laggy/IRC conflation. Actually it's kinda creepy looking at it now, he reads a lot like me but with more cussing. Regardless, this generally reads well to me - instead of defensiveness (which is only good if done exceptionally well, and tends toward null (like above) with sometimes scummy) he just explains the issue and moves on.

* Breakdown! (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108713.html#msg108713) This generally reads fine (this was trimmed), only comment is I don't really agree that D1 Yoshiken looked too great. But see below (again, I trimmed this section for brevity)

oh, diversion, since people have been ? about why I'm mellowing on Yoshiken! Basically I'm still not happy on the day 1 Yoshiken but day 2 has been pretty damn solid, even from the first post which I got ninja'd by. Yeah, I'm still wary of the day 1, but... the day 2 thus far from what I've read has felt decent enough that I'm not concerned, he's provided arguments and reasoning when present and I generally think he's clear for now. 'kay? Wish he'd give details on why he disagrees with my Roukanken case (*prod for when he returns*) but for now...

Back to Zenthor, D2... reply to Rou with annoyance on Rou missing the point, then * this. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108972.html#msg108972) Another blowbyblow, and while I think I need to reread the Rat case my general gut reaction is disagreement on everyone but Rat. Then again, this should be expected, considering. >_> And more importantly, he's reasonable about his cases and arguments, and structures well. The followup here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108983.html#msg108983) - where'd I say that first part, Zenny? It was probably in the N1 typeup, hopefully the above explains some.

His own case on Roukanken... is at least a solid one - that is not an unreasonable expectation and calling Rou out on it is understandable. Myself, I've been thinking Rou has been more solid outside of Zenthor material. May need to check and confirm this, I wasn't pleased with Rou's own response to my case, at least, but put that aside as being biased.

And then a breakdown saying both me and Xanth look crappy, which is frankly the sort of reason why I put that comment in the bottom of my previous WoT - neither of us could possibly look good here and, honestly, the Nervous Bug in my stomach's making me think we're both town despite Logic Bat going "keep pushing". So yeah. Zenthor I'm not complaining about, he's being reasonable and intelligent. The monkey fuckwit dingbat.

Rat next, but I need a break from Mafia and don't blame Zenthor for stepping away for a bit. So.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 01:06:31 AM
/me tosses around the current field on the presumption Xanth is town.

... Xanth, Kilga, MC, Zenny. Could I ask for honest rereads of content of Rat and Alice? Specifically, -how much of their content was stated by people before them-, and would you gauge them to be lurking on average at this point? In other words, are they pulling active lurking?

Still doing reread, only halfway through. This mainly comes after a bout of deductive reasoning that admittedly makes a few steps I'm not terribly comfortable fully committing to, but...
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 01:06:51 AM
Oh. SnowFire, I'd ask for your opinion on that question set as well.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Xanth on May 30, 2010, 01:18:03 AM
Sod it, I'm done here.

Tai, I really, really hope you're town, because if you're scum then you've deliberately made my game complete misery over really, really stupid stuff.

##Unvote: Tai
##Vote: Xanth

Because even when I flip the table over in a /ragequit I'll at least be polite and give warning rather than just copy/paste my PM information, but I will do that on the first claim of appeal to emotion, because I have next to no intention of staying in the game. By which I mean getting into the game at all, really. I guess expectations are such that I just can't play in the May-July rush.

I hate myself for being a selfish baby about it, but I'm just not willing to go on like this and spend late nights getting depressed over it. It'd just go on forever otherwise, with each of us continuing to claim that each wall of text is the last.

I wouldn't really trust my opinions right now given how heavily on tilt I am and how little I've read through the murky people, but I was looking out for people hedging their bets on the endless frustration, and while there was quite a lot of that, Makkotah stands out as worst, and while I'm being crazy I'd even take a stab at a team of Makkotah/Snowfire/Metroid, but that's probably ten levels too simple, especially with the level of lurkery, which really ought to contain scum somewhere.

And yeah, sorry Excal. This game's gone to hell in a handbasket with no fault of your own.

Ninja: okay, that you can have. I commented on Alice and have nothing to add, and haven't read through Rat. Liked him at the start, but since melted into the background for me. Haven't read enough to say any more on him.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 01:22:26 AM
My apologies, Xanth. I really didn't mean to piss you off with the walls of text.

For what it's worth?

##UNVOTE: Xanth

I think I'm wrong, myself. If you're scum and doing this to pull me off, it's a partial success, but I'm not thinking I'm right on you anyway. Vote will reland when I'm done reading.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 01:27:55 AM
And yes, I do have my reasons for pulling off. Basically, after rewriting my case and my interp on Laggy, I've been looking it over, and my basic conclusion came down to this: as stupid as it sounds, you were too earnest. Too positive, so to speak. In other words, you -believed- your case and your reading, just as I believe mine - and that doesn't happen with scum. You fought too hard even under minor pressure for it to be a scum case.

Going back to that Rat read. And yeah, I was keeping an eye out for a Xanth post, in case you were wondering. Although part of me was waiting to get blasted again.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 02:17:09 AM
Xanth:  VOTE FOR YOURSELF TO PROVE YOU'RE TOWN!  But seriously.... uuuugh.  This makes me like Tai slightly less, and the WIFOM about what that says regarding your alignment hurts.  

But why would you hope he's town?  So he's wasted everyone's time?  At least if he's scum he'd have done a pretty damn good job of goading a player out of the game (apparently).

Tai:  Fine, I'll do that, since you gave me something specific to look for.  Otherwise I would have told you to piss off. >_>

Carth is the first one to bring up MC's posts being reporter-styled, and comes shortly after MC's damning post.  Alice brings it up long afterwards.  Next few Carth posts address MC being really verbose yet leaving her vote on Xanth.  Kilga kind of addresses this but near as I can see Rat's the first to bring it up.  Rou brings this up, but only after Carth brings it up a second time.   Let's see... moves his eye off of MC first, it seems, his case on me is distinct from Roukanken's case on me.  His case on Tai is pretty distinct from Xanth's and Kilga's analysis, and... that's it as far as content goes.

Do I think he's pulling an active lurk right now?  Uhhhhh.... Not... particularly.  I'm not really sure.

Alice, as I said, brings up the reporter charge long after other people had.  Misread of Laggy is the only thing in his first post that's original.  Next post states "MC's reporting charge is weak WTF?" in the post following the time Carthrat does it.  Misread of Snowfire is his only original contribution there.  Saying Glen's post is awful but chalking it up to clueless noobdom is also original.  Back-and-forth with Glen is original, but doesn't him any favors if you ask me.  

Is Alice pulling off an Active Lurk?  Not a chance in hell, you have to be posting to do an active lurk.

Tai ninja.  Reverse OMGUS?  My head hurts.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 02:38:20 AM
For the record, I almost asked for a modkill yesterday myself, but was determined Xanth was scum at the time and decided I wasn't going to give him the pleasure. But yeah, that entire argument stream made me miserable, too, and his own reaction... yeah, it makes perfect sense. I don't tend to explode/act out of anger online, but otherwise it's amusing to reread and see how much emotions were actually likely mirrored.

So yeah, reverse OMGUS kinda not really but definitely sorta looks like that, doesn't it. <_<; A few things outside of this.

One: Three scum max. 4 scum: Modkill Noyn, 10 players 4 scum, mislynch me, 9 players 4 scum (mislynch town, whatever, I'm vote leader or close enough right now so easiest example), NK someone, 8 players 4 scum, scum win so today would have to be LYLO. It's not unless mod is ditzy. 3 scum max. Tomorrow is likely LYLO. Two: Mod, please confirm amount of time left in day. It should be about 22 hours or so by my count. Third: Xanth, whatever you are, take a vacation from the game for a few days? I don't think anyone can blame you at this point, myself alone has been a massive pain in the ass. Don't worry about the game for a bit and just cool heels. :/ Dislike suicide in general (again, hi, Middleman) and if a vacation can recharge you a bit, cool.

Rat and Alice summary will be coming soon, spacing posts out.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 02:39:07 AM
EBWOP: I myself have likely been a massive pain in the ass to you. Blah, English language fail.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
Am back.  This game has been unnaturally stressful for all sides it seems.

Xanth: ....yikes.  Xanth, you strike me as a person who would not pull the suicide-sympathy gambit if you were scum, and frankly if you are scum then this will get a severe WTF about being willing to play meta + flame war interaction with Taishyr at the end.  Anyway, please reconsider and don't get yourself modkilled.  Unless you are scum.  Then go ahead.  Anyway, point is this makes me willing to kneejerk Xanth town (and be REALLY MAD AT HIM after-game if he is.)  Tai ninja: Yeah, the vacation suggestion sounds like the best here for sanity's sake.

Taishyr, re Alice / Rat: There is nothing on Alice to re-read, so my opinion stands: Suspicious comments on Day 1, only one case that he really came up with which was based on a far over-critical interpretation of me; bad by my judgment.  On re-read of Rat , well, I still disagree with him over just about everything (he thinks you come off worse than Xanth, he thinks the case on Roukanken is bad, he thinks Zenny is suspicious), but I feel like he's actually making cogent arguments and definitely not lurking anymore.  Basically I'd be willing to vote Rat but because he's saying stuff he can be held to later, I'm fine with putting this off until we see more flips.  Alice meanwhile?  There's nothing to hold AGAINST lurkers which are why they can be so frustrating to town.  So I'd be far happier with an Alice lynch than a Rat lynch.  For that matter I'd be happier with a Roukanken lynch > a Rat lynch at this point as well.

Anyway.  Need to do a Yoshiken re-read.  Am quite happy with MC's Day 2 content and doubt I will vote for Zenny either.  I find myself nodding along and agreeing with a lot of it, so that gets a positive mark from me, though obviously "we agree a lot" isn't a guarnatee.  Kilga...  definitely willing to leave any attempt for a Kilga case for later.  Taishyr...  I have no idea, especially with recent developments that make Xanth / Taishyr look like a town-town blow up.  If nothing else on role-meta alone the "power up" ability sounds towny though Excal warned us not to trust this TOO much, but generally willing to defer this case as well.  So yeah, Alice > Roukan >> Rat ?= Yoshiken pending a Yoshi re-read.  Noyndy...  well, there's obviously nothing to say there, and it sounds like that's cruising toward a modkill if Andy doesn't join.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 02:43:43 AM
Minor addition: Taishyr, on second thought I need to re-read you as well as Yoshi.  I'd kind of kneejerked you town before and saw Xanth as the worse party in that spat, but since I'm leaning town-Xanth now...  hrmm.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 02:45:37 AM
Oops.  Also edit
"kneejerk Xanth town (and be REALLY MAD AT HIM after-game if he is.)"
->
"kneejerk Xanth town (and be REALLY MAD AT HIM after-game if he is scum.)"
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 02:49:21 AM
nah, I deserve a fair amount of blame for Xanth's situation, presuming he's town - town/town between two wall of texters each rabidly yelling at each other? Yeesh. :/ and yeah, I think he's town. If he's not, eh, but I think he is now. (And in fairness, and this'll come up when I post it, Rat thinks Xanth comes off worse than I in this spat. But I've got a different bone to pick with Rat there.) (NINJA EDIT SnowFire - okay that statement makes more sense. >_>)

Working on Alice analysis since yeah, it's short.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 02:58:23 AM
Snow: Uh.  Wrong:  Rat said that Xanth looks worse because it's so out of character for Xanth to pull the raeg card.  

Quote from: RatCarth
Offhand I think I dislike Xanth more than Tai, this woe-is-me, reactionary play does not seem natural at all.

I don't like Rat's arguments so much, but we should be clear on what they are.

Totally irrelevant sidenote:  I've decided I really like Anono/semi-anonomafia more than regular mafia.

Ninja!  Nothing more to add.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 03:04:32 AM
Did he?  Give me a sec, I could have *sworn* he said he was leaning Xanth's side.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 03:07:05 AM
Never mind you are correct.  I think I must have misread someone else's post as being by Rat...  give me a sec, this might change things.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 03:14:51 AM
Nope I was just 100% wrong.  Which is weird because I got Rat's position right before (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109140.html#msg109140) when I noted that I agreed with Zenny & Rat that Xanth came off looking more the worse in that spat but somehow I'd manage to twist it around in my head by the time I got back.  So uh yeah.  That does make Rat look even better, though as noted I wasn't overly enthusiastic about a Rat lynch today anyway.

SnowFire derp, sorry 'bout that.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 03:17:40 AM
Two posts incoming, second is short and contains vote. I apologize, this seemed the easiest method. Rat summary. * first serious post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108544.html#msg108544), first to directly state MC reporting after big wall/isn't first to comment on LaL and go against it. This (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108608.html#msg108608)... basically boils down to "Laggy meta fail, but won't vote switch off MC because MC is clarification prodding which is... more suspicious than what I'm claiming Laggy's doing". Also goes "she ignores her case on Yoshiken" and then "her posts have been nothing but reporting" which feels contradictory. I think I know what he was trying to get at, but it's still poor wording at best and contradictory at worst. Final reply to this series is here, (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108642.html#msg108642) where he continues to push the point (and is rebuffed immediately after by MC).

* Switches to Glen here. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108733.html#msg108733) Admits to tunneling, gives reason of "I've got little to say on anyone else, null tell". Has the "I resent my early-day skimming being used against me" line which I've responded to here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108756.html#msg108756), albeit sardonically - basically it's defensive and doesn't read well. Generally naysays on MC all through this, which makes the Glen vote odd - almost throwaway. Granted he has the Laggy dislike to build on, but. He attacks MC for simplistic logic - that doesn't make sense to me, either. Not sure. Just generally not happy with that post.

* D2. Yo yo yo. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108969.html#msg108969) States disinclination to go back to MC (... this switch feels abrupt). Claims Zenthor has been entirely reactive when Zenthor made the points against Carthrat first on D2. No fly zone. Accuses Zenthor of active lurking, I disagree highly (based on my own reading, at least. Reactive, some, yes. Active lurking, no. He's been opinionated.) IOW this just... yeah, doesn't sit well with me either. Has this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108979.html#msg108979) regarding why he moved off MC... uh... why did your perception change before and after you were voting him? Perhaps a stupid question but that seems weird. Overall this second post is decent, though. Thinking on it.

* Tells me I shouldn't care about anti-early-LAL now. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109076.html#msg109076) Sorry, but that makes me wonder what's being hidden, try again later. Regarding part quoted, I'd have to check, but Rou's post's tone and the lack of attention to detail Rou paid were what set me on edge regarding it IIRC and that's what I tried to approach. States willingness to lynch either me or Xanth already (and leans Xanth - this part doesn't surprise me no matter Rat's alignment, so no major comment), which sets off alarm bells at this point (attempts tonarrows it down to us two for lynching). Offers further explanation of MC-towny-leanness, not sure if I buy it, leans on Kilga regardless here. Overall, I'm not reading Rat well, no. It's not anything major - no huge gaps - but the sudden swap off MC and the attempt to cover for it D2, the push to lynch either myself or Xanth at that point (herding into a lynch of two targets, both of which he might well know are town?)... just seems poor. I'll do that Alice summary and decide my vote. He isn't active lurking, however. I'd agree there in response to my own question, though other opinions are certainly welcome.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 03:21:00 AM
Alice summary. * First post for Alice in the game! (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108603.html#msg108603) Begins with a misinterp of what Laggy said (it -would- take guts for scum to quicklynch from that train, as a response to Zenthor), has the weird Noyn line that just kinda means nothing, critiques Laggy's comment about the L-2 thing (answer: because it gets reactions, which help us get info), and then comments on the votes/unvotes/revotes/Xanth->Laggy case, jumps on MC for reporting without acknowledging the Yoshiken work at all or why it doesn't count for anything. * This post against SnowFire, (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108612.html#msg108612) which I think SnowFire himself covered well enough in one of his responses. This is kind of an empty vote and switch away from MC, the case is pretty much seemingly based on a misread/expounding of SnowFire's comment. I'm really not sure what's going on here, this seems blatantly not paying attention at all.

* Here, (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108774.html#msg108774) sticks to MC reporting charge despite MC having been generating content by that point. Mrgh. Argues statistics on jokevote train scum - ...eh, fine, that's not something I'll argue with. Yells at Glen (and then doesn't vote him) (and still misreps SnowFire some), goes back to voting MC. Well, at least the MC part's consistent, but. Continues to debate Glen here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108789.html#msg108789). Dismisses any potential OKaying of MC as "I guess I suppose I could see m_c as a somewhat clueless newbie with a strange posting style, but even then, a bunch of things don't add up.", but neglects to say what doesn't add up other than a theoretical lack of content. Then protests my "attempt" at starting the Yoshiken lynch and asks a rhetorical... (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108841.html#msg108841) both of which seem pointless, as the lynch was obviously kinda going nowhere at that point but to Glen. AAAAnd nothing day 2! At all! Unless I'm completely missing it! So here, Alice, have a vote for active lurking and lack of content D2, as well as attacking easy case (MC) and pitnicking SnowFire while accusing Glen of doing the same to you, as I wonder if you were just waiting for one of Xanth or myself to noose up completely:

##VOTE: Alice
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 03:23:28 AM
EBWOP (I suck at think today): It's not active lurking, because like Zenthor said, you have to be posting to be active lurking. Content is... regurgitated MC case without much seeming thought in it, but spat with Glen and SnowFire picknit are both original if bad, yeah. Still.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 04:43:37 AM
Tai: In the context of using it as a point against Xanth, I have a hard time buying that explanation, as it would suggest Laggy did not do his research properly, in which case Xanth was in the "right" to vote for him anyway. Alice has played 5 games here, one of which is this game. The other four?

- Worms Armageddon, lurked as scum.
- Villains, lurked as town (for as long as he was in the game, which wasn't very long).
- Meme, lurked as scum.
- Cthulhu, lurked as town.

Just here at the DL, Alice has a 100% lurk record and is literally 50/50 on his alignment. And just for the record, if we want to pull MotK games into the equation, he has lurked as scum (Mai HiME (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5016.0)), lurked as town (MotK Mafioso (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.0)), been active as scum (Gensokyo (http://molniya.ath.cx/MoTKMafia/GWU/) Worker's Union (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=7.0)) and been active as town (Dorf Fort (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5977.0)), and in none of these cases are the linked games the only example.

If Alice had a much more unbalanced DL game sample (every game where he lurked he was scum, ever game where he was active he was town), then I would not necessarily begrudge this way of thinking, but given the actual numbers I just can't buy it. If we are to assume Laggy was suggesting Alice has used this as a tactic "often" in the past, then he is wrong in regards to the DL and only technically right in regards to MotK because of the sheer number of times he has drawn scum there (the man is a walking statistical anomaly; Andrew, Bard, Gate and Rat all wish they were as good at drawing scum as him) somewhat accompanied by MotK's knack for letting lurkers cruise control to victory. If we are not to assume Laggy was suggesting Alice has used this as a tactic in the past, then we can safely assume he was cherrypicking due to his reaction to being presented with a counterexample. Either way, Laggy made a mistake that could be seen as scummy, and I believe Xanth was in the right to vote for him.

(Man, I can't wait for Laggy's postgame comments.)

In regards to your reread request, I may give Alice a once-over (wouldn't take very long, at least), but I can say with confidence that Rat has not been active lurking, as I remember a lot of his content being both relevant and new as Day 1 progressed. He also had the first Zenthor vote of today, backed up with reasons other than what Roukan talked about, and, and even if someone else had votes Zenny first I think it's a bit of a kick in the pants to cast suspicion on someone just because they lost the time zone lottery. I would be hard pressed to say Alice has been active lurking anyway, as it implies he's actually been posting, well, anything. I define active lurking as "posting without saying anything meaningful" (see lolcat in Meme Mafia for a good example of this), so for me, Alice is very blatantly plain ol' lurking but not actually "active" lurking. I honestly expect the modkill axe to chop his head off at this point, even given the Noyn situation and who the game mod is.

Fake edit: Oh, well, that already got explained, okay.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 04:52:17 AM
Also, since it's "pertinent" to this thread, one of the reasons I've been distracted for this long was ABC Family showing Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. >_>
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 05:13:13 AM
I wouldn't say Rat's really leaning on Kilga there.  His reasoning for the change doesn't change between those two posts--you COULD make the argument that Kilga basically insomniaced that during the night but the connection there is so tenuous that I don't give that much credit.  If anything, this little re-read has made it clear to me that Rat's content is for the most part original content.  Still disagree with most of it, mind.

I also wouldn't say that stating a willingness to lynch either you or Xanth is an attempt to narrow it down to just you two for potential lynch candidates.  Stickler for direct quotes that you have been...

Quote from: Ratattat
I cannot say I'm wholly against the lynch of either party at the moment, and really the whole thing seems somewhat contrived.
 

"Trying to narrow it down to just you two for a lynch" factors in there... how?

I don't see anything else to take issue with in this last series of posts.  I'm... wary that you're banking on people viewing the way the clusterfuck with Xanth ended to make people conclude that you're both town, but right now there's not enough I take issue with in the following posts to follow that up.  Yet.  


---

By my count, deadline is 6PM EST tomorrow, 18 hours away.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Excalarai.  No Alice at all, shock.  Rou... well, timezones, so he still has plenty of time to respond to me.  I want this response before I consider taking the "Alice was terrible yesterday and not around today let's lynch" train to Margaritaville.  

Kilganinja.  Hm.  That's an interesting point--clearly, this means if Alice is active he is scum.  Yesz.  Seriously, though... I don't know how this affects my thoughts on Tai v. Xanth.   Or if it does at all.  It may!  We'll see.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 05:26:15 AM
Skimming ever so briefly... it doesn't, really, at least not in a way that's immediately obvious to me.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 30, 2010, 05:30:50 AM
18 hours before your not so benevolent overlords require constant entertainment.

I will speak with Xanth before I do anything too harsh, and if some time without pressure to produce will help calm people then I will either lengthen days (you guys have been wonderfully productive regardless of what time of day its been) or just give you guys an extra long night to soak things up (which may also get me enough time to give a damn about replacing Noyn).  Given what's up with Yoshi as well right now, extra long night sounds fine.

As a side note, I will not, at this point, replace anyone else besides Noyn.  He is getting replaced now only because there will not be a sudden change in personality (unless you count non-existant as a personality)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 05:55:33 AM
The point behind blabbing that was to point out that, even under Tai's interpretation of Laggy's action, Laggy's action was still scummy (as scummy as any ED1 action from a townie can be, but). Either Laggy was cherrypicking meta (mine/Xanth's interpretation) or he didn't do research important to his point (Tai's interpretation), so as far as I'm concerned Xanth's vote was fine. (If it was indeed the second thing, Laggy didn't exactly do a great job of clarifying as such in his response (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108513.html#msg108513) to Xanth - it's possible that, had Laggy indeed been approaching the situation from the same viewpoint as Tai and then proceeded to go "derp I forgot" or some such when Xanth pointed out the counterexample, Xanth would have removed his vote.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 06:20:35 AM
Will keep this brief.

Yoshiken re-read: Feeling about him the same as I feel about Carthrat; IOW worried but not feeling he's anywhere near as scummy as Alice / Rou.  Similar vibe to Rat - I can't say I really agree with Yoshi at all, but holding strong opinions with reasons is better than lurking (Alice) / sniping (Rou).  And it seems he has a strong RL reason for not being around later in Day 2.  Definitely interested in hearing what Yoshi thinks when he gets back though.

Taishyr re-read (which entailed a Xanth re-read as well): I will be honest and say that after re-reading it I now have no idea what the entire Xanth-Tai debate means, if anything.  Still leaning town on Xanth due to the suicide vote but as for Taishyr, his Day 2 content that doesn't have to do with Xanth has been good if a bit long-winded.  I think it's probably safer to go back to Day 1, where his attempted move onto Yoshiken...  hrmm.  Kilga already covered this at night, could be a townie trying to stop a mislynch, could be scum trying to get a different townie lynched who isn't around to roleclaim, but considering I found Yoshi at least somewhat suspicious on Day 1, I can't really fault Tai for this.  So yeah.  This ends up being a wordy way of saying "I have a confused null tell on Taishyr and didn't discover anything new."

Conclusion: Yeah, I'm sticking by Alice > Rou >> Rat = Yoshi on my lynch list pretty much.

Also, for whatever it's worth, don't want to spark a whole 'nother debate, but I'm a huge fan of anonymafias as well, Zenny.  They definitely defuse a lot of the player meta.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 08:08:53 AM
Dropping in once again to say that I am 100% for a longer night phase, at the very least for tonight.  Also, I don't think lengthening the day phase would help ease tensions any.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 30, 2010, 08:14:18 AM
Works by me.  This Night Phase will be two days long, and we'll start back up again some time Tuesday
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 30, 2010, 08:27:24 AM
Right. Woke up about an hour and a half ago, been catching up on the topic, apologies if I've missed anything major. Anyways, should have the whole day to burn today so, ignoring sleep/illness shenanigans, should hopefully be around for deadline. Hopefully.

Reaaally not seeing the raegquit as a scumXanth strategy. What with using IRL circumstances to explain it and Xanth's normal competitive nature with Mafia, I'm pretty much certain on townXanth now. Strangely enough, this makes me read Tai as more town, if only because of the tone of his posts - it's rare to see scum push a single case that hard, even if it is against Xanth, and I'm willing to chalk that up to a Town/Town struggle for now. Will still consider Tai if something else comes up, but he's been decent enough so far.

Gonna grab food and do a re-read over Rou/Rat/Alice/Snow in particular in a bit, but first, quickly replying to this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109157.html#msg109157) since it was specifically asked of me. This was your case here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108923.html#msg108923), so:
 - I know you've said about seeing anti-D1-LAL as a nice hiding place for scum, but I don't think it tells anything (for obvious reasons) (note: you said nothing about that being scummy here, but you've mentioned it since, so thought I'd clarify)
 - That post looked at several people, while you claimed it looked at just Zenny and Snow. I kneejerked at the time (and still go with) that Snow's was the only one you even slightly agreed with, and the vote was on Zenny, hence mentioning that, but the post also looks at cases on Noyn and MC, as well as the LAL thing. I also don't agree with the reporter charge there, since pretty much every point (except possibly Noyn's?) has been provided mostly with opinion.
 - Ehh, I guess that's a slight misrep? I still agree with what he did say about it, though, with the... Imouto Defence, as he calls it. I can see both sides of the argument with the points on Zenny - original content is good, but supporting other arguments you agree with is also good. I can still see why he'd press that, though.
 - You say yourself that claiming intent to hammer and then voting is a null read, which I agree on - saying you're happy to vote someone and then voting them is not suspicious.
 - The point on Zenny/Ciato seemed fair (I know Zenny's explained it since, but I can see how that'd be suspicious using Ctrl+F, at least), and the L-3 WHHYYYYY... Yes, it was an old point, but I still don't like Zenny's response to that either, as... someone pointed out. I'll find that on a reread. Basically, saying "I overreacted!" is weak, since any vote can be attributed to "I overreacted to x point" - obviously a more extreme example, but shows why the argument holds no ground. "If I were scum" is... baiting WIFOM or something? "If I were scum, I'd do this!" "But then, would scum do that so they could claim they could do this?" (On that note, I need to check over MC's Day 2 as well - can't even remember if she replied to that one)
 - tl;dr: his arguments had been mostly agreeable, even if you don't agree with the target(s), and I think there'd definitely been worse to that point.

Ninja and longer night phase works for me, since I have plans for tomorrow.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 08:56:30 AM
So, Alice re-read. Squeezing this in during commercials; Revenge of the Sith is quite distracting.

First post: I have no real explanation for why he chose MC over Laggy at the time despite spending a lot more time on the former. If we're doling out "original content points", though, he gets one for being the first to ask why I thought Zenny's brainfart was worth voting for. I believe someone questioned Alice talking about Laggy "complaining about the Rat train"; I believe this is to what Alice referred.

In all seriousness, Rat's in Aussieland and probably just now coming around. Give 'em time.

Perhaps not an out-and-out complaint, but still something of a voice against it. I can see why Alice would have said what he said there. The backpedaling charge, though? Not a big fan, it came about because of an Excal note about Alice's attendence, and it's a bit dickish to call someone for backpedaling when the mod gives them a good reason to do so.

Second post: The case on Snowfire is original if nothing else. Snow defended part of it, Alice went elsewhere later. Not much else to say here.

Third post: I have no idea where the MC vote came from. It's like he never dropped it in the first place. Maybe the Snow vote was some sort of delaying tactic? Possible. I could see getting suspicious of Alice for this.

Fourth post: Basically nothing but defense, so. He has a couple of posts after this that are barely even woth mentioning (beyond pointing out an "initial read of Yoshi" that came out null without any followup).

Conclusion: There's some stuff Alice could be busted for here, though active lurking isn't one of them (for all the meaning that has now). I...actually did not notice how weak the MC vote was at the time, and he's had forever to explain it.

---

This is one of those times where I wish I had two votes, because I'm seeing some good reasons to vote for Alice, but I don't want to move off of Tai. I'm not in the camp that thinks what transpired today definitely makes either of them town; watching it unfold felt somewhat awkward with the way the AtE started flowing in. I even think it's possible the whole thing was staged, yes. I've pulled off this sort of interscum fight before and it was very much worth it because my flip let my buddy coast through the rest of the game to a victory. With the way Xanth and Tai kept dancing around each other's words, and then the really bizarre climax where they both just give up on each other - those were some really quick turnarounds, especially in Tai's case - I don't entirely trust it to be town. And then Tai's jump to Alice, who, good case or bad, could very well simply be a jump to a lurker...ugh, this leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

But I don't think I can really sell this properly, given I believe I'm in a unique position toward viewing it. Maybe during the night, depending on whatever flip we get today.

With that said:

##Unvote: Taishyr
##Vote: Alice


Given all I have is hard-to-substantiate misiginvgs toward Tai, I don't feel I can logically justify staying on him right now.

Extra night-time is also fine by me. No guarantees that I'll be talking the whole way, though.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 09:05:04 AM
EBWOP: For the record, my use of "AtE" applies to the stuff before the self-vote, where it was clear emotions were starting to set it, and I use it in a sense where Xanth and Tai were trying to hit each with it more than try to tell it to the rest of us. I feel nothing for the self-vote - I never have, and I never will - but I'm not going to let Xanth pull an Otter by misrepping something I've said.

(On a side note, a role PM post would make me lose a ton of respect for you, but given FAV's recent heel turn on MotK I guess that's just how the world works nowadays.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 30, 2010, 09:19:26 AM
Alright, Alice has told me he is in the process of posting.  He has also necessitated a perma-prod list be created, that I might add him to it.  If he still does not make a substantial post before end of Day, he is toast.

Andy does not feel he can join in good faith.  I was considering trying to find someone, but have decided that is not fair to game to leave someone in a quantum state that long while presenting nothing more than a cypher when they do join.  Which is a damn shame since his role was the one that I created first, and which did a lot to help make the setup what it was.  Fucking Noyn.  Either way, he is dead and will flip at end of day.

Next.  I have made a policy decision.  These dramatic suicide posts create unecessary drama, and poison the meta in unacceptable ways.  I know I certainly don't want to play in games where doing such things is seen as a legitimate way to survive if you are scum.  And I don't want it to be something you can ever get rewarded for.

So, from here on in, in any game I run, if you make a post seriously requesting a modkill in the game topic.  You will get it.  I don't care if it is a legitimate cry for help from a frustrated Townie, or a ploy from Scum, I will treat them both the same.

If you are having issues, and are getting stressed out, then talk to me and I can be flexible, or try and find some way to accomodate you.  I understand that DL Mafia is very fierce, and have no issues with trying to find a middle ground if there is one.  Need to vent?  Send me a PM, it will not go any further than that because, dude, I have been there and I know how things can get.  Think you may need to drop out?  Then at least if you find that you can, after the fact, return to the game, at least the game will not have been dominated by the freak out and changed by it.  These options are available, and I request that you take them.

As such, despite not having given Xanth warning before, he will be Modkilled at Day's end.  I feel the burden of giving advance notice is lessened when it involves fulfilling a player request.

Finally, this is as much a note for Sasarai as it is for the rest of you.  I will be at a friend's place tomorrow when the day ends.  Likely without net access.  Sasarai will be posting day end (or, anyone really since the guidelines are pretty easy to figure out, and we're good at keeping to the spirit of the rules.  Notably, after day ends, so long as the debate on who to lynch keeps going and there isn't a 15 minute gap without a post arguing or debating on the lynches you're good.  Things that don't count are placeholders to halt the lynch, or a string of one-sided arguments because all of the people who think otherwise aren't around, or can't be bothered to respond.  Needs to be a back and forth).


tl;dr

Fucking Noyn is dead at Day's end, do not vote him.
Xanth is dead at Day's end.  All votes on him are gone and will not be recognised as legit.  His vote is also gone.
Alice, will die at Day's end if he does not make a substantive post before day ends.
If you make a dramatic post requesting a mod-kill, you will be modkilled.  No take backs.
Flip will be delayed, end of day will not be under my supervision.  Play nice, kids.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 09:22:03 AM
One more thing.

* First post for Alice in the game! (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108603.html#msg108603) Begins with a misinterp of what Laggy said (it -would- take guts for scum to quicklynch from that train, as a response to Zenthor), has the weird Noyn line that just kinda means nothing, critiques Laggy's comment about the L-2 thing (answer: because it gets reactions, which help us get info), and then comments on the votes/unvotes/revotes/Xanth->Laggy case, jumps on MC for reporting without acknowledging the Yoshiken work at all or why it doesn't count for anything.

Bolding mine. I went back and checked this a couple of times and I still don't know what you're talking about. What did Yoshi have to do with the content of Alice's first post?

Okay, 20 past 4 and I have to sing at church later this morning, really going to bed this time. (Let it never be said I am not dedicated. >_>)

Cut by Excal: Well then. Guess I'll get some answers regarding Xanth/Tai regardless.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Roukanken on May 30, 2010, 09:30:00 AM
Great. My entire post just got rendered pointless now that Xanth's been modkilled. FFFFFFFFFFF.

I can't be bothered sitting down to respond to Makkotah, but I'll say this - your case against me revolves around the fact that I can't read. Shouldn't you be looking for players who are scummy rather than careless?

Well since I have a decent enough reason to believe Tai's role and MC is apparently just a new player I think I'll ##Unvote, Vote: Makkotah. Your case on me revolves around semantics and picking out minute points I didn't catch on the first time in order to make up for the fact that you have no defense against the rest.

That's all you get from me for now because ongdsoihnd;poarihda;orihasd;poghieo;rhgiero;ghi nwrognre;ogi I hate this game right now.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 30, 2010, 09:35:48 AM
LYLO concerns were brought up, so I will say this, the game is not currently in LYLO of any form.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 10:01:34 AM
/me generally feels like shit for the Xanth situation at this point. Fuck.

Kilga: I've read and acknowledged your points but give me a bit to go through them, I just woke up and today's promising to be kinda shitty. Re: Yoshiken, though, it's because MC made the breakdown on Yoshiken (which was, to me at least, decent) before that post AFAI remember yet Alice dismissed the entirety of MC's work as reportery at the time without any real attention paid to that. Also, alright: I had been under the impression Alice's lurkscum record on MotK was far longer. You're right, that does help justify the attack far better and I -really- wish it had been said earlier. Rest I'll get to in a bit.

Rou: Carelessness when picking through the topic can be a scumtell, honestly. I need to reread today's events between you two, though, for what that's worth, and I'm not quite sure either way here.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 30, 2010, 10:27:19 AM
Okay, this game has completely exploded. Time to make sense of what's left.

Firstly, Xanth and Noyn are gone, no reason to look at them. Going to go along with what I said earlier and look specifically at Rou/Rat/Alice/Snow and MC D2.

Hm. Before that, LYLO concerns. Haha, that's a funny point, that. See, what with the modkills and the risk of LYLO approaching quicker, I suddenly decided to take a look at Tai's logic for 3 scum max.
One: Three scum max. 4 scum: Modkill Noyn, 10 players 4 scum, mislynch me, 9 players 4 scum (mislynch town, whatever, I'm vote leader or close enough right now so easiest example), NK someone, 8 players 4 scum, scum win so today would have to be LYLO. It's not unless mod is ditzy. 3 scum max. Tomorrow is likely LYLO.
Now, there are a couple of points in this. Firstly, we've potentially got two more modkills here, and it's still not LYLO. That means one of those three is scum, at least. What caught my eye is Tai saying "Modkill Noyn, [...] 4 scum" - reason to believe Noyn is Town there, Tai? He then says "mislynch me" with the note in brackets to clarify 'or anyone else who's town' - just reads plain weird to me. If you were reading back and noticed that, wouldn't you just change 'mislynch me' to 'mislynch town'?
I also don't like this:
... Xanth, Kilga, MC, Zenny. Could I ask for honest rereads of content of Rat and Alice? Specifically, -how much of their content was stated by people before them-, and would you gauge them to be lurking on average at this point? In other words, are they pulling active lurking?
Reads very much as railroading Town towards Rat/Alice (which seems to have happened, if we ignore suspicions on Rou!) (I'm also wondering why Zenny was included in this, to be honest. It looks like you picked the three people you were assuming to be Town... but I can't see any reason to assume Zenny is Town at this point.)


Okay, doing a D2 reread (already summarised my thoughts on D1 and some D2 at the start of the day) by post order, so...
Starting with Roukanken! The first post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108915.html#msg108915) is mostly agreeable to me. (Oh, hey, it was Rou who said about overreaction not being an excuse (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109066.html#msg109066).) Before the post came this one (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108964.html#msg108964), which reads okay to me as well, for all that he's focusing entirely on MC/Zenny. Both of those have seemed suspicious to me a fair bit, though (and, given I have more time than I thought 'til deadline, I think I'm gonna have to reread Zenny, at least - I'm really not liking what I've seen so far.)  However, the linked post for the overreaction (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109066.html#msg109066) does have one problem, albeit a minor one - he's pushed cases against MC/Zenny all day, and drops the MC one for reasons I can understand, but... he continues to push the case against Zenny, then jumps over to Xanth/Tai argument instead of pushing who he is most suspicious of... which changes back by the next post, despite being for role reasons. Okay, yeah, really not seeing the cases on Rou here. There's little in the way of scummy play to that point, as far as I can see (only thing I'm seeing is abandoning his cases to focus on what I read as a Town/Town (and before people attack me for saying that after the point, I read it as Town/Town on my reread before seeing the raeg because both of them were taking what seemed like small points and focusing on them - it seems far more likely that Scum would try to just find a neutral ground and move to an easier case (hence not clearing Tai still))), and even the points I disagree on, I'm chalking up entirely to playstyle (e.g. the point against Snow here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108915.html#msg108915) - I don't have a problem with people posting a lot early on, as long as they continue to post lots after that. More to read through, sure, but how many people read the jokevote on a reread?) HOWEVER. We then have this little gem (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109240.html#msg109240) - I can understand being annoyed about the whole Xanth/Tai thing, but what does that have to do with your case on Zenny? You actually barely commented on Xanth at all, with the main point you had being "It's likely one of them is scum, and Tai has done [scummy stuff here]" Seconding Tai ninja here too, with not reading the topic being a baaad move. It's bad for either Town or Scum, but still slightly scum-leaning on being an anti-Town thing to do. Still, not looking to push his lynch today based on what is, as far as I can see, a decent amount of good content and one bad post (-after- the arguments against him built up.)

Yeesh. I've spent about 3 of the 4 hours I've been awake on Mafia so far, and I'm only done with one summary. Posting this now, will get to the others soon.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 10:45:34 AM
I can't be bothered sitting down to respond to Makkotah, but I'll say this - your case against me revolves around the fact that I can't read. Shouldn't you be looking for players who are scummy rather than careless?

No, it's about misrepresentation.  You'd clearly read through/seen the two posts in question (linked to them in one of your posts building a case on me, after all), and kept asking the questions until I noticed this.  That in the most recent post before this last one the problem for some reason changed from "you keep your vote on Ciato even though you never mentioned her" to "you didn't change your jokevote at all" just makes it look worse.

You're asking me to hunt scum and I'm fucking doing it.  You look scummy and have offered nothing up to make me think otherwise.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Xanth on May 30, 2010, 11:06:34 AM
So you can work with it before the end of the day, go figure I am/was actually town (please do not doubt this, I'd look even more stupid post-game if I used this position as scum to mislead you on minor things for a few hours). Was vanilla (so far as I knew, at least) to start with, gained one shot doctor overnight, which I was going to use on myself tonight because scum were probably going to do things by the book. Oh well! Not sure if that was my level up or if there was a one-shot doc ability that passed to the person who gets protected. Probably the former, as cool as the latter sounds in principal. I am/was also a godlike character, which I figured as vanilla was there to be a trap claim, but maybe it was attached to something powerful at the top level.

Also lol Tai, I play your game for days and days and days and waste hours and lose so much sleep on a single point and you keep on finding ways on twisting that tiny stuff into maintaining the vote in the most frustrating ways possible, but minutes after a suicide vote you're certain I'm town? I knew we had different priorities, but this is just silly. You should never have sympathy for emotional bail outs like this, and I think Kilga's the only one to have had the correct reaction (other than for considering that it still might be scum-scum after the /ragequit, lol wut).

Oh, except for Excal. Short of something extraordinary, I would have made sure that I died by the end of the day anyway, but /ragequit or no /ragequit I didn't want to just PM drop out of nowhere and cause maximum pain to town. Excal is completely right to be stomping on drama queens in general, for sure, and if anything is being rather town-friendly with it, in that with the Noyndy mod kill also it's like town gets a bonus lynch, what with three for the price of one today. Again, really sorry Excal, none of the several cock ups in this game have been your fault in any way.


Ninja: as much as I'm cooling down, I probably shouldn't get involved much any more, but even though I threw out a {Makkotah, Snowfire, Metroid} team guess earlier (choosing Makkotah might have been emotionally charged unless I saw connections to the other two at the time (I can't remember), but I'm really not comfortable with the connection Snowfire and Metroid have, and also while I'm thinking about it they've both excused a vote or implied vote by 'gut' alone), Makkotah's in the right against QRou here even without the clarification. Carelessness is a scum-leaning action. Only a minor one, but 'I was careless' is no town excuse.

And oh, there are clearly three scum in this game. You don't need to think deeply about that, it's just really obvious. 13 players is the perfect number for three scum, and there hasn't been any crazy shifts in powers to even hint at two or four.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 11:16:50 AM
Yoshiken: Very bluntly I am reading Zenthor as town, his abrasiveness aside, and it would take a rather large case to move me off this. This is part of why I want to do the Rou/Zenthor interaction reread. You're correct in that I included people that, at the time, I wanted to either gauge reactions of or thought were Town. SnowFire/Kilga were included in the former (Kilga also kinda in the latter, I mean fuck I -always- think he's Town. ALWAYS. mutter. Which is why I'm trying to ignore what I'm thinking and look at him objectively which doesn't seem to be helping but. Right now yeah I peg Kilga as Town even trying to ignore my usual bias. I don't know if I'm failing at ignoring it or not.)

As for the Noyn scum, uh, frankly if he's scum he doesn't count. >_> For one, I'd expect scum to be able to get him to, you know, talk. And if not, he's not really playing as scum, is he? He's dead weight either way. He might be scum but then it's two/three scum + Noynscum and then, okay, whatever. And no, I didn't see any reason to delete myself in that commentary - to me, I'm my own best example and often enough I write for myself as well as for you guys. So, yeah. His base alignment's pretty irrelevant, if it's three scum+Noynscum then it's three scum. <_< (Ninja: Also, what Xanth said. 3 scum works fine with 13, 4 not so much)

Final thing: -yes-, I admit to having attempted to narrow focus to Rat and Alice some with this. I have my reasons for that, I want MC to respond before I go through my (probably shittastic, and it's probably gonna explode when we see the flips for the day, but I want to justify asking these questions) reasoning. Focusing on people outside Rat and Alice is perfectly cool and I don't mind it at all, but I badly wanted opinions on those two due to the chain of logic I was working on.


Ninja Xanth: Dude, I could quote your post and say the same, it's honestly felt that way with regards to the whole fight - just a flurry of "wait, what the hell is he- argh, okay, attempting to reply". And the vote switch was pending - I asked my question before your own vote removal, remember? I was highly considering being wrong even before you posted that, that cinched it in some ways mentally. So. Yeah, I feel like shit for my involvement in this, but honestly felt the same way on my end almost all the way through it.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 30, 2010, 12:57:07 PM
No roleplay blurb right now. Sorry for the delay in votecount!

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (3): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat
Taitoro (1): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

A majority is reached by six people, still, I believe? Although nine actual Stars of Destiny still exist. Excal, back me up here.

Unless mistaken, and I can be due to faulty Europe time conversion, this day has 9 hours and 30 minutes left in it.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 01:25:14 PM
Sasarai, my vote is currently on Alice, and I have unvoted Xanth before that.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 30, 2010, 01:47:45 PM
Saw the unvote but didn't think it necessary to adjust Xanth's voting to reflect it... will do so and I found your vote. Sorry, got lost in the walls of text. Catching up with everything right now so lemme do your vote and continue reading. I'll likely be around for deadline.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Carthrat on May 30, 2010, 02:48:51 PM
@Zenny: Yeah I'm kinda not wanting to vote you today anymore, the reactiveness on d1 isn't how he played out most of d2. Without really pointing to specific examples, he seems more vibrant and, well, dedicated to the scumhunting thing! ##Unvote: Zenthor

I am not especially certain of his points on Rou, though the guy's own OMGUSy response is quite troubling, he could effectively have written 'shut up, your points mean nothing!' and he'd have the same kinda post there. I can sorta buy the 'Rou is skimming' thing, at least, mainly because he did end up taking the easy way out by saying 'those posts suck I'm not going to cover them'. It seems a bit, I dunno, off-kilter to say something like that when your general modus operandi IS to cover each post (not one I'm especially fond of, but still.)

I am a bit leery of Tai at the moment but would rather see a confirmed Xanth flip than the guy's own words before going further down that track, since one's incoming (though I'm fairly certain he wouldn't lie at this point, who knows?)

I honestly don't have much to say about Alice; I didn't find his content earlier particularly offensive but lurking an entire goddamn day is just not on.

I'm feeling we'll have more luck persuing LaL at this juncture, and I'm too muddled to figure something else out. That's where my vote's gonna go. ##Vote: Alice, nobody is really 'active lurking' as far as I can tell, don't want to go after tai, still of two minds about the rou case and would rather persue this, various people are looking pretty okay and driving me into a spiral of fear because this is mafia and nobody is proven innocent until dead, etc. etc.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 30, 2010, 04:15:17 PM
Next up on the agenda for me is SnowFire. Day 2 opens up with this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108922.html#msg108922) which:
 * Dismisses Kilga's arguments against him as just being him. Thing is, Kilga's arguments are things that are scummy and not just playstyle choices, so just dismissing them as playstyle is like saying that Alice isn't scummy for lurking. I think he quite clearly is at this point. That said, he then defends against the arguments well.
 * Decent points against Alice. While I agreed with Alice on SnowFire dismissing parts of Rat's post, I'm able to see Snow's argument as well, and the other points here are good.
Seeing the next post, my response (as shown in my summary) was OH GOD WHAT. >.< Because, hey, let's tell scum who's been powered up so they can definitely pick out a target above the others (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108926.html#msg108926). The only thing that had been claimed to that point was Tai having been targeted, confused, but with no ill effects. Claiming an openly positive benefit is just... wut. (Although this is somewhat worse on MC's side for claiming it, but both are bad! Scum-bad or just plain bad... hrm. What with Tai confirming off Rou, think it looks worse for Snow, although not sure that says much.) And then, for the rest of that post? We have some mild role speculation which, as far as I know (although I've not played S3), just fits in with the character. The rest of this post is decent enough. Clarifies the Alice case, since I'd mentioned it again, and agrees to be more concise. While I don't agree with him letting Rat off for the end-D1 stuff (stronger opinions from now on plzkthx) or his opinions on Rou here, the rest seems decent enough.
The next couple of posts don't contain much, other than an answer to why he pushed the possible active-lurk on Rat and requests for a counter-claim to MC, which... I'm yet to see? Doesn't clear her, but definitely pushes her towards the Town side a lot.
The next post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109140.html#msg109140) mentions Rou potentially picking up the easiest case when he joins, which was MC. Except, uhh, Rou voted Zenny (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108669.html#msg108669) when he subbed in, only changing to MC on a reread (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108751.html#msg108751). I'm not sure I see your point about him continuing to chase MC/Zenny on Day 2 - are you saying that if he'd suddenly switched off his D1 targets, it would have been better? Backs off Rat after this because of early-D2 - will take the Rat reread to say if this says anything about Snow - and moves towards XanthTai.
This post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109180.html#msg109180) (and the five after it with only two other posts between)... Nothing too disagreeable there. That said, it's mostly on XanthTai, which, while understandable, most people have the same opinions on. (again, not sure on the comments on Rat until the reread of Rat. Will make sure to look over these posts again when I do that.) This post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109219.html#msg109219) is mostly the same for exactly the same reason - most everything is a neutral or near-neutral stance. (Not a scumtell here, though - his stronger opinions are on Alice/Rou, and these posts don't cover those so much. Also gives his final standings at the end, so I'd say this isn't a bad post, at least.)

Really wanting to reread Zenny as well now. Just spotted another potential scumtell in (albeit minor, albeit kinda stupid and obvious) rolefishing but... urk. I have no clue where my vote is going at this stage, but it's almost certainly not Rou/Snow, at least. They've had enough good content to ignore them for today.

Right. Sasarai ninja count points out that, technically, Alice isn't modkilled yet. I've been pretty much assuming he is and, assuming he shows up now, I'd assume he's getting lynched. I'm gonna assume he's getting killed still and switch my vote over if he shows up. (Also, a quick glance through the latest posts shows that Rou unvoted and voted Zenny. Use Ctrl+F ##, maybe? ;) )
On that note, Excal says Alice is writing a post as he speaks. Man, at least some evidence of that would be nice. I don't want to see a deadline post and nothing else there - if this happens, you are 100% absolutely definitely getting lynched, regardless of circumstances. (Sure, some things can't be helped! Doesn't make it less suspicious.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 04:20:51 PM
Something I want to toss out since it bugged me while I was trying to sleep last night. I think it was maybe Tai and Snow (and possibly more I don't remember exactly) that mentioned they liked what Yoshi had brought to the table today after a potentially spurious Day 1. What do you two honestly think of his Zenny vote? I first addressed the issues I had with it here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109050.html#msg109050) but no one seemed to notice. Looking at it now, his vote is still there. Let's go back to his reasons for it, shall we?

However, the more pressing concerns are Snowfire and Zenny. Neither have produced much of anything that I like, but I feel Zenny is very effectively pulling off an active lurk here, so:

##Vote: Zenny

- Lesser point: Does anyone, specifically those that gave Yoshi credit for his cases today, think that the two Zenny posts Yoshi touched upon give Yoshi license to make the broad "Neither have produced most of anything I like" statement? Here are my thoughts on that matter, for quick reference, even though the post got linked above.

As best I can tell, he cherrypicks a couple of Zenny posts for his +/- stuff (the first of which, at least, gets overblown with the "everything" emphasis given the entire post is dedicated to responding to one person) and then makes the broad sweeping "(hasn't) produced much of anything that I like" combined with the active lurking accusation without doing a whole lot to substantiate either statement. I don't think the posts he highlighted properly support a don't-like-anything statement.

- Greater point: Does anyone at all think that Zenny could still be accused of active lurking at this point? I think he's played a fine Day 2 and has had plenty of relevant things to say, yet Yoshi's vote is still there. I realize Yoshi is playing the catchup game, but still, no comment whatsoever on the circumstances of his vote? Not liking this at all.

Xanth: General personal philosophy to not buy into ragequits until the person is actually removed from the chessboard. In your particular case, I had no guarantee you weren't going to turn around half a day later, cite you had calmed down (with help from the Tai unvote) and decide to pluck up and continue playing the game in the face of adversity. I put very little past scum in the way of that sort of thing because scum will play as dirty as possible if they think they can get away with it. Assuming, at this point, that what you said was all genuine, then sympathies for the agony you've gone through, but do understand that I have no inherent reason to believe that sort of thing is genuine as long as it comes from an unknown.

Cut by Yoshi kinda-sorta addressing the status of his vote. Took him long enough, but eh, at least there's something there.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 30, 2010, 05:06:20 PM
IRL notes:
I'm about 30 hours behind in the topic (although ahead on my apartment and car shopping)--first priority is to read the topic.  I'll re-evaluate who to do a reread on there.  Presuming some townies die either during N2 or during the lynch, I should probably swap out with them at that time--better to make the switch when they're still following the topic than to do it half-way through Day 3 when I step on the plane to Atlanta.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 05:10:37 PM
Okay, took something-hour break from Mafia, back on wagon, let's go dig up why I had that good read on Yoshiken.

Basically it boils down to him pulling stuff up that I honestly wouldn't expect scum to bother explaining/justifying/pull up. I overstated while doing my Xanth case and working mentally through that, but yeah, definitely still have a good read on him. The Ciato swap-factcheck, the pointout that my language tends towards the more casual (he calls it subtle, whatever works), a decent defense of himself that, while hardly towny, doesn't verge into scummy either, and... this post in general, here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108929.html#msg108929) which I think you're not giving due credit re: Yoshiken's Zenthor justificiation. Frankly this seems like the best callout of Zenthor yet (the two links up top, specifically), and while I disagree on Zenthor's scumminess after my reread, I can understand placing a vote when weighing these two posts and looking at them. So yeah, while Yoshiken's not clear he's not bad to me. Those two posts did a lot to give Yoshiken noted opinions and analysis in-game, and he fairly weights them below given the viewpoints he professes, sooooooo... yeah! I can understand a dislike of Zenthor's pure defense posts (though at this point Rou/Zenny is an argument and any back and forth between them I'd flag as that and not defense - at that point, it was a good callout, IMO.)

...and it occurs to me that everyone will be having fun jumping on me tomorrow if Xanth really does flip town. That'll be a joy and a half.

re: Kilga's paranoia that this was scum/scum or town!Xanth/scum!me, yeah, all I've got is my arguments and my tasty things to give out at night to try and support me. Timing-wise, I've just been active, especially since when I'm in the middle of an argument I tend to get frentic about checking in about it - it's why the very quick reply turnaround often enough. I've had to force myself away from the laptop to avoid that until last night. ...though I guess I should take it as a compliment that scum!me and town!me are virtually indistinguishable normally, I guess? Whatever, I'll do the best I can for town for as long as I can. I think there was another point I wanted/needed to address but I'm missing it, apologies, point it out to me if you want a reply. I'll be out for a bit, will be back by deadline.

One final question, and again, want SnowFire/Kilga/MC/Zenthor primarily to respond though anyone can, I guess. Should I just full roleclaim now since I already claimed the ability? I avoided the name claim, and there's a pointed reason for that. The reason is I wanted to hit something when I saw the role. But it's hardly as if it needs to be avoided for game reasons (and for reference, scum have fake ID's/covers so it's not like this could clear me anyway, but). I suppose what I'm saying is, does anyone think it's relevant or should I just sit on it? (The ability claim is here, (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109101.html#msg109101) targeted QRou N0, Noyn N1 (and was confused for whatever that's worth), for reference.)

I realize this might be pointless to ask, but I feel it should be asked at a minimum. I don't particularly care and would sit on it given the choice, but as a partial roleclaim is out the rest of town has the right to request the remainder.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 05:34:32 PM
The Ciato swap-factcheck

I avoided commenting on this in the past for reasons that I can't even remember now, but since I don't recall it ever getting mentioned, I believe Ciato's statement was wrangled out of context. Let's bring it up again, along with the paragraph in which it appears.

I don't terribly like Yoshi's attack on Snowfire and it makes me somewhat leery of the Snowfire train building. I find the attacking MC over the reporting to be inane -- I think a lot of players do this (Cranbud, Mage) just as a force of habit and I don't think MC's any different. I basically disagree with everything Yoshi says and I think he is consistently trying to stick charges on others.

I believe it is not at all hard to make the connection that Ciato meant "I basically disagree with everything Yoshi says in the context of Snowfire", given how she led the paragraph off, as well as her use of "says" instead of "has said" (which would more suggest the overarching disagreement that Yoshi seemed to think it was). This would not conflict with her earlier comments on Yoshi.

this post in general, here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108929.html#msg108929) which I think you're not giving due credit re: Yoshiken's Zenthor justificiation. Frankly this seems like the best callout of Zenthor yet (the two links up top, specifically)

Please do tell me what I'm missing, then. I've already explained the issue I take with the first link (while you didn't bother explaining why it was good why do people keep doing this argh) and the second link could have been a pure defense post due to environmental circumstances; Zenny was preparing to go to work and needed to leave soon, so maybe he only felt comfortable addressing things immediately relevant that he'd have no problem address, rather than try to make a new case and rush it and potentially have that rushjob backfire on him.

Roleclaiming: Don't. If you're town, it will needlessly give scum extra information, and who knows what they have up their sleeve to counteract it. By keeping it on the down-low you force things so their only reliable way of stymieing you is to flat-out kill you, and no offense, but if scum decide to remove you from my suspect pool then more power to them as far as I'm concerned. >_>
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 05:53:38 PM
First point: ...I did not draw that inference at all, honestly - it read as a blatant indictment of Yoshiken. I can see the inference now that you draw it (and it's likely what Ciato meant) but syntactically I didn't see it there. (Checking the post, I didn't see it because it doesn't really exist - the line continues, "I basically disagree with everything Yoshi says and I think he is consistently trying to stick charges on others." which implies Yoshi's cases on others - everyone else - are what Ciato disagrees with, not just SnowFire. So yeah, not buying that, think Yoshiken was right in pulling the flip up.)

I missed your issue with the first link referenced by Yoshiken (and I'm not sure where it is, but okay, this is probably toroism acting up)! Frankly yeah, that first post does read in many regards as a waffling dismissal on many fronts and to take it as such I don't see as problematic (nor do I see an issue with a callout on that so much, but). This being said I think  Regarding the second post, sure, but at the same time in that case letting it sit a bit longer until more time could be devoted to it. It's still somewhat problematic as a result, in theory (and again I don't see Zenny as scummy, but at least the case has more support than -anything Alice has done- even when he was active, frankly)

...This being said, going back to your actual point and then the post, yeah, that's a bad overgeneralization on Zenthor by Yoshiken, looking things over again. Mmmf. Brings the value of the posts down for sure - I was willing to give it more of a pass, but critical examination doesn't give that, yeah.

Though yeah, scum know I have a power role of some quantity at this point, so let's see if they want to risk leaving me alive I guess. My main balk is that I don't quite know -what- scum could have that'd make my role info useful/not useful to them (remember, mass roleclaim cannot win us the game) so.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 05:57:22 PM
... I'm too tired to be posting here, I'm not sure the third paragraph makes much sense. Basically yeah, I'm seeing your point now and yeah it affects the Yoshi read, though it's... on a second thought while it is important because it is who he voted on and it's a bad overgeneralization, I'm still not seeing most the rest of the post as bad. So yeah, still not good re: Yoshi, but mrgh, I don't see the full thing just yet. Would probably still vote Rat over Yoshi, but I'd like to get the Alice flip and confirm my suspicion that he's scum before I go any further right now, mainly just because I can't think straight all of a sudden.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 06:32:07 PM
You've inspired me to go back and read through that whole exachange, just to make sure we're understand it as best we can.

Here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108579.html#msg108579) Ciato agrees with Yoshi that LAL is an easy way to be lazy, but only mentions him once more (as a neutral read). Notable that "LAL is an easy way to be lazy" is a general game theory opinion rather than an opinion on any specific player's actions within the game ("I think _____ is scum because _____")

Here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108624.html#msg108624) is Yoshi's next post, with his Snowfire comments. It also contains negative-reading opinions on MC, Zenny and QR while his vote is still on Laggy. I think this might be where Ciato's "consistently trying to stick charges on others" line might be coming from, though sure, it's also possible she just flat made it up, I guess.

Basically, in going back over this I still think "I disagree with Yoshi on the Snowfire issue" was the proper way to read that post, and even if there was confusion regarding the disagreement I think Yoshi blew it out of proportion since she agreed with him on exactly one issue anyway. I do see why the "consistently trying to stick charges on others" line could be confusing, though, for as much as I think it came from Yoshi poking at several people in that one post.

In regards to the first post Yoshi linked, it is true that Zenny was pretty waffly in that post. What I do not like is Yoshi's emphasis on how "everything" is waffly, when there isn't a whole lot of stuff Zenny talks about in the post to waffle about, and they're waffles about specific points instead of players in general, which I feel is more important. In fact, the more I read it, the more I see it as waffling about reporting and then agreement that MC's vote for you (Tai) was odd in a line that reads pretty supportive for you (Tai), with a very definitely not-waffly statement regarding what he prefers to do with his early vote. So...yeah, suddenly not seeing the waffle charge as much as I did before. Would actually appreciate Zenny clearing some of this stuff up, if possible.

---

Back to the roleclaim. Scum know you have a power role because scum and town alike know that everyone has a power role, so the only extra info scum have on you right now is that you have a night action. They don't know what it does, and they don't know if it's the only thing you can do (obviously please do not confirm or deny this second thing). What could they do with your role if they knew what it was? They could have a better idea about whether or not you're worth Roleblocking, or they could have a better shot at guessing what you'll do with it and Bus Drive your action elsewhere. Or whatever else that I can't think of right now since those two are the most obvious possibilities.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 30, 2010, 06:50:37 PM
grgh. Must not OMGUS... Must. Not. OMGUS. Have been getting such a Touhou vibe for a while, especially now that this is back in the Demotivator vs. Touhou position, but reaaallly prefer playing the logic game over feelings, so definitely not considering that today.
But seriously, Kilga? I return from missing at least 24 hours of content and state I'm doing a huge reread and you demand that I change vote ASAP? I'd rather, y'know, FINISH THE REREAD FIRST, thanks. I'm not gonna throw my vote at someone aimlessly, just to change it a little later when I'm around all day. (And I figured you guys would be able to figure that out and it didn't need explicitly stating. Apparently I was wrong. >_>)
------
Zenny~ I know how much you love reading, so have a summary:
Firstly, we get this one (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108937.html#msg108937), which is almost entirely defence against Rou's post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108915.html#msg108915) and... overreaction is a terrible argument. Possibly honest, but terrible. Also kinda sorta WIFOM to assume only Town can overreact in that situation. The defence on the vote is fair enough, as much as I disagree on the playstyle choice. We then get a minor rolefish, it looks like - what with the +/- powers in effect, I'm really not liking that, since it reads as scum looking for hints on who to kill. Reading into that way too much? Probably! But that reads terribly to me. He then says in the next post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108938.html#msg108938) that it's not actually important, but he still wants an answer. Brb, hitting head on wall.
The next post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108972.html#msg108972) is much better, and... haaah. If he's right about Rat there, that is most definitely deserving of a vote, even this late in the day. (Exaggeration, but yeah, that is a huge + to Zenny and a huge - to Rat if the Rat reread brings the sudden switch on MC up as true.) Don't agree with the argument against Xanth, especially if he can see the point on cherry-picking meta, but the logic is fine. Post kinda sorta continues here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108983.html#msg108983) but... what. The switch off Rat seems completely ridiculous, with "Still don't like Carth at all, but I don't have anything tangible on him." Uhh. What about the post before this? >__> Also gives way too much credit to Rat's defence post before that (which is pretty terrible, but more on that later!)
This post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109028.html#msg109028) presents the case on Rou a little better, but... well, I don't think Zenny's defences were particularly good, which makes that defence mean fuck-all. Assuming Kilga is Town is fair enough, since most everyone has. As for MC, I still see overreactions like that as scum-leaning, but.. hm, can see how that could be newbie. Null tell for me, personally, but I can see where the logic comes from, at least.
This is the next one (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109054.html#msg109054), with added laziness - seeing this as minorly scum-leaning, as was said regarding Rou's latest post, since less information/clarification is inherently anti-Town, since it gives us less to work on. (That said, I can understand finding this game headdesk-worthy.) I still don't see the argument of "I don't like moving my vote around" since it just reads as scum not leaving a trail - the alternative is if you're worried about contributing to a mislynch, in which case, wouldn't you remove a vote you're less sure on?
Aasdfdsgfdhgfj the pain (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109136.html#msg109136). No, seriously. Read through Zenny's opinions that have been stated in this post. Earlier, he stated that he could definitely see the logic behind the 'cherry-picking meta,' yet here, he says Laggy 'pretty clearly addressed why' he did it. Now, look at the * paragraph (and the clarification of the meaning later in the post), and then at the paragraph on Xanth. He says that Tai has misrep'd Xanth majorly, then goes on to say that it's "odd that [Xanth is] accusing [Tai] of twisting words around to make them fit his case." Yep, I'm lost. I also like the placeholder of "I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if both flipped town or ITP, but I think it's more likely that one of them is scum" - seems like a nice way of looking unconvinced while having an excuse to vote one of them later on.
This one next (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109148.html#msg109148). The line he quoted of Rou's reads as "Why is your post on Ciato if you're not mentioning her?" That doesn't really say either way whether the problem is where his vote is or whether or not it's still there. Pure semantics, and that's not good to be basing a case on. Next paragraph is the playstyle argument again, so not much to add here. Throws in another point against Rat, although, quickly checking Rat's post, I'm not sure what Zenny means; this is nothing to do with Zenny's post, but more that Rat's is vague as hell. That can wait 'til the next post, assuming I have time. Zenny's SnowFire analysis is basically "I agree with him a lot, but he doesn't say much. No read on him." Can't really agree with that, personally; I found a decent amount for Snow on a reread through. He then makes a decent Alice case, for all that it's mostly been said already, and says SnowFire looks better for it. He then goes on to potentially dismiss that case as not understanding Alice's playstyle.
Now we have the post-/ragequit post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109174.html#msg109174) - this is mostly in response to Tai's questions, and confuses me a little. He says that Rat is the first one on MC, has a distinct case on Rou, a distinct case on Tai... and then says he's not sure if he's active lurking. If you can get that much in the way of strong opinions, I'd imagine that's not active lurking! Seems to have nothing good to say about Alice still - if it were anyone else, I'd be wondering why your vote is on Rou, honestly, for all that you've been pushing his case, but you've already stated your unwillingness to switch votes, so... sure, not a point. (Post after this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109184.html#msg109184) is just clarification, not sure that really tells us much? Possibly slightly Town-leaning, but reaaaaally slightly.)
After this, we get a slight improvement in this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109208.html#msg109208)! Says Rat's content is original and points out that Rat's post isn't necessarily railroading. The rest of the post says nothing, and I'm somewhat amused at his quick defence of Rat here, whether intentional or not. Definitely doesn't read well to me. (The next two posts are confirming that he sees nothing new on XanthTai a post later, and then saying he's in favour of a longer night, so skipping those.)
His defence against Rou's lazy post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109246.html#msg109246) just repeats his earlier defence, but that's all that's really needed here.
(As an aside, I noticed Rat's unvote on Zenny in here - seeing them both build cases on each other and then remove them later on for easy/worse cases is kinda funny! If by funny, I actually mean facepalm-worthy.)

tl;dr: Am I going to change vote? Not likely. Even if I see Rat as scum, that just convinces me on Zenny a bit more, and I'm already pretty much sold. The only reason I'll change vote now is to take out Alice if he shows up, as I've been writing these summaries with the idea that he'll be modkilled in mind and LaL is definitely valid here.

Aaaand 6 ninjas.
Okay, Tai's covered the first point - she said "consistently trying to stick charges", which most definitely implies everything to that point. As for the Zenny argument... the first post has, in order, "kind of a null tell," playstyle defence and... a decent enough point, which is then dismissed with "That said... meh. Still nothing that I'm really picking up on." As for the second one, I don't like clearing people on "Well, it could have been..." The post is weak and I'm going to press that - if he can clarify why, then fine! He hasn't!

...fucking hell. I never realised how much I could type when motivated to play Mafia. Sorry about this, guys. =/
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 06:54:06 PM
Fair. And for what it's worth, -my role worked effectively- but I was not told that -my role worked as intended-. IOW, I wasn't roleblocked, but I may have been bussed or something similar (or it could have just failed to work on me). The flavor was vague, and it definitely wasn't my N0 flavor where everything worked fine - there was ambiguity in that I was definitely targeted, but the effects weren't elaborated on.

Note no one has claimed the second tasty thing thus far. Yeah, this pretty much implies Noyn got it, but... alternately scum grabbed it and don't feel inclined to claim as such. (Mainly keeping this in mind if zero/one scum flip today. My foreshadowing wasn't terribly adept, scum may have caught me claiming the tasty and thus chosen to give my item to someone on their side. Yes, this implicates QRou - they would have to know what I was giving out in order to know it was worthwhile to redirect, which could only happen N0. This is also incredibly theorycruft and I'm only bringing it up since I can't be -sure- my tasty went to Noyn. If two flip today... I'm not really sure but I think it means Rou doesn't work out as well, would have to think it over, I suck at theorycruft which is why I don't indulge in it unless I think it produces a valid point. Basically if we think my role got redirected Rou needs a massive lookover, as any claim of the tasty at this point from non-MC would be... pretty damn suspicious.)

NINJA Yoshiken: I'm not gonna hold my breath on a Alice modkill since Excal said he'd be out to end the day.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 06:56:45 PM
Would actually appreciate Zenny clearing some of this stuff up, if possible.

Sure.  Tell me if I'm misunderstanding what you wanted me to clarify; just woke up.

The post I made that Yoshi linked (that Jack built):  I wouldn't say I was waffling at all, least not on any players.  Reporting can be bad, yes, but longwinded people trying to get their thoughts organized can easily be accused of reporting when they're really not.  I felt MC fell into the latter, and that accusing her of reporting was dumb. Doesn't mean I didn't think the Tai vote wasn't odd.  

So, Yoshi's commentary.  Honestly I can kind of see why he'd say "everything" was neutral, leastwise as far as players went.  I threw out one point against MC and in the same post recognized a more valid point against her, and ended the post with "Not really picking up anything shit g2g."  The only really solid statement in that post is what I've been eying Rou about.

I thought Yoshi's points regarding me were valid (I was pretty neutral in that post and the other post WAS defensive), and the only thing really there to excuse myself within those posts are environmental conditions (having to leave for work, slacking off at work and seeing my boss come down the hall and having to ditch the computer kiosk), and that's not a good enough reason since there's no real way for town to verify whether that's true or not.  

Looking back at that post though I find it odd that Yoshi thought Alice's terribad (IMO) case on Snowfire was good, and think he may have twisted Snows words to paint them negatively, but I'll have to do a re-read to verify that.  Certainly going to take a look at Yoshi this morning.

---

Kilga, a question for you:  Where'd all this talk about me waffling come from?  Yoshi complained that I took a neutral stance (something that seems really reasonable in light of how I ended that post), not that I was of 2 minds about MC.  

---

Hey moddymoddmod!  Vote count (mostly for hours left in day) pls?

---

Ninja!  Well, good thing I was going to do a re-read on Yoshiken so I can safely address this later.  >_<
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 30, 2010, 07:03:58 PM
I'm just a guest votecounter, not a co-mod, though...

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (4): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan, Carthrat
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat, Roukanken
Taitoro (0): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

I still believe that a consensus by six is required to lynch.

No more than 4 hours and 30 minutes should remain in the day, ending at 3:35 PM PST. It is now 11 AM PST.

FRIENDLY NOTE: To make it easier for votecounting without forcing me to read the entire topic immediately (I do so in my spare time, just to see what's up), please put your votes on a seperate line not included in a block of text. Thanks to Yoshi for pointing out Rou had actually switched votes - I did read it later but didn't connect that I missed counting it. :V
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 07:27:32 PM
Zenny: Waffling talk most likely came from Tai using "waffling dismissal" and my mind gelling that together with "neutral" in my head to mean the same thing. Apologies to all parties involved for letting that happen. There definitely is a lot of neutrality in that post, though I think there is at least an obvious stance regarding MC's pursuit of Tai at the time, even if the conclusion is "meh".

Yoshi: Maybe this is just me personally, but if I'm returning from a long absence the first thing I'm doing is checking the status of my vote to see if it's still valid or not. My vote is the most powerful thing I have and what people are going to judge me on more than any other individual thing so I'm going to be giving it top priority. I guess you feel differently? Playstyle difference, I suppose. Still think my way is better, though.

Regarding Ciato's use of "consistently", maybe yes she did mean more than your latest post. How does her thinking you'd been trying to stick charges on others contradict her agreeing with you about Early LAL being lazy?

Second Zenny post I'll let Zenny address, since I have no way of knowing if he was actually going to work at that point or not.

And what, pray tell, are Touhou vibes? What differentiated Touhou from, say, Wily or Hazel or the Axems? (And what constitutes "a while"? I notice this sentiment hadn't been expressed before I started pressing you - in fact, you appeared to really like me in your +/- list - and that you've been focusing on other players in your re-read instead of me as far as I can tell.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 30, 2010, 07:30:39 PM
Kilga's/Tai's read on Yoshiken vote: the problem I have with counting those two links to Yoshi posts as solid justification against Zenthor is that it cherrypicks two posts.  I imagine if I searched for it, I could find a "responding to questions/pressure" post and a "these people give me no strong feelings" post from most people in this game.

But seriously, Kilga? I return from missing at least 24 hours of content and state I'm doing a huge reread and you demand that I change vote ASAP? I'd rather, y'know, FINISH THE REREAD FIRST, thanks.

Kilga's been doing the "why haven't you changed your vote yet?" line all game.  Did it to Laggy (which led to the Laggy unvote that people didn't like) did it to me (in one case where I had meant to change my vote, in one case where I was not yet comfortable jumping off of Xanth).  And...y'know what?  I've done it too.  I did it to Zenny when I realized he hadn't changed his joke vote.  *shrug* fair tactic, though it can throw the target off-balance, yes.


Someone asked me if Carthrat/Alice had been active lurking D1 so...

Alice, no, I feel like Alice completely misinterprets things (against, say, SnowFire and Laggy), but they were new misinterpretations.

Carthrat, no: first person to start the "mc is reportery" train.  First person to complain that my Xanth vote was rushed and not backed by analysis.  Admits initial accusation was only based on a skim and didn't have much content (which helped support SnowFire).  I think he may also be the first person to accuse Laggy of promising to go over other cases before Laggy's sudden OMGUS.  His last two posts D1 actually present opinions on more people than I initially realized (Snow, Zenny).

My issues with Alice were more noise-filled posting style and being wrong about how he read things.  My issues with Carthrat were more avoiding having opinions on anyone besides me.


NINJAs make me still not done my reread (part way through the Yoshi post I quoted on Kilga) but IRL calls for a bit.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 07:39:05 PM
Oh, yeah, since MC quoted it and that reminded me, at no point did I demand a vote change from Yoshi, much less "ASAP". I said I didn't like it and that I didn't like that he wasn't addressing it, and then he cut me by addressing it. Nothing the the effect of "Yoshi change your vote immediately" that I can remember unless you want to interpret unhappiness with a vote that way, and that's a pretty large spin imo.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 07:50:31 PM
We then get a minor rolefish, it looks like - what with the +/- powers in effect, I'm really not liking that, since it reads as scum looking for hints on who to kill. Reading into that way too much? Probably! But that reads terribly to me. He then says in the next post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108938.html#msg108938) that it's not actually important, but he still wants an answer. Brb, hitting head on wall.

A... kind of fair point, so an explanation.  I hadn't yet read through the Day 2 posts by that point, and the intro post about powers that de/buff roles had slipped my mind.  My role changed over the night, and Kilga opened his first insomnia post with "In an amusing (to me) twist of fate, I have the ability to speak at night."  Read to me as if if this could be a role imposed on him by another player, ala my role change.  Then I read about Snow/Xanth getting powered up, realized what was going on, and suddenly Kilga no longer needed to answer my question.  Whether or not insomnia was his "neutral" state it certainly was intrinsic to him.  

That said, I don't think it's a terrible rolefish to go "well are you an insomniac just for tonight or is this every night?"  We KNOW he's an insomniac, and if he's an intrinsic insomniac I'm more inclined to think that he's town (though admittedly that is bad scumhunting and I must ignore that voice in the back of my head), whereas someone who got insomnia from someone else has no such benefit.

Quote
Post kinda sorta continues here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108983.html#msg108983) but... what. The switch off Rat seems completely ridiculous, with "Still don't like Carth at all, but I don't have anything tangible on him." Uhh. What about the post before this? >__> Also gives way too much credit to Rat's defence post before that (which is pretty terrible, but more on that later!)

This post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109028.html#msg109028) presents the case on Rou a little better, but... well, I don't think Zenny's defences were particularly good, which makes that defence mean fuck-all.

Please, you can read better than that.  Rat explained the switch off MC to my satisfaction (whether it's to your satisfaction or not is irrelevant to my thoughts at the time, and Rou...

You know what, fuck it, I've elaborated on this point enough and this post is going to be long.  If you REALLY want me to explain it to you as slowly as possible I will but... Christ.

Also not going to get into trite early vote maneuvering bickering.
 
Quote
Aasdfdsgfdhgfj the pain (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109136.html#msg109136). No, seriously. Read through Zenny's opinions that have been stated in this post. Earlier, he stated that he could definitely see the logic behind the 'cherry-picking meta,' yet here, he says Laggy 'pretty clearly addressed why' he did it. Now, look at the * paragraph (and the clarification of the meaning later in the post), and then at the paragraph on Xanth. He says that Tai has misrep'd Xanth majorly, then goes on to say that it's "odd that [Xanth is] accusing [Tai] of twisting words around to make them fit his case."

Eh?  In that post I said I don't know why TAI said XANTH was Cherry Picking Meta and wasn't sure what he meant by it.  I also said I didn't like either's misrepresentation of either party, and didn't think much of Xanth's case on Laggy.  Also, if you're going to quote me, quote the whole fucking sentence.  

"Do I find it incredibly odd that [Xanth is] accusing [Tai] of twisting words around to make them fit his case while [Xanth] accuse[s Tai] of only not placing his vote on you because nobody else had?"

Meaning's different with the Whole Fucking Sentence (TM).

Quote
Pure semantics, and that's not good to be basing a case on.

Pure semantics it is not.  Huge difference between "why u vote ciato" and "why u no move vote".  One's accusing me of voting for someone while never addressing them, the other's a pure difference in playstyle.

Quote
He then goes on to potentially dismiss that case as not understanding Alice's playstyle.

You know, it's getting harder for me to tell if you're intentionally misrepping me or I'm just writing in heiroglyphics or some shit.  I didn't dismiss Snow's case as not understanding Alice's playstyle, you cunt.  MC (I think it was MC?) said earlier that she didn't understand why Rat couldn't "process a case on Alice."  I excused THAT because of RAT's potential familiarity with Alice.  

---

Nothing else to respond to in the post.  Still want that vote count for time.  Going to try and re-read Yoshi now since I've really only addressed this latest post.  


Ninja ninja ninja ninja fuck it I'll address later.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 07:51:10 PM
Blargh, extremely spotty internet + RL business. Blah blah excuses, this should be the last of it, and if it isn't, then I'm giving Zenny full permission to lynch me IRL postgame :P Anyway.

Quote from: SnowFire
* Votes me off what's either a [huge misunderstanding / intentionally critical misreading] because I can agree with part of Rat's statement and still vote him?  If somebody posted "Rainbows are pretty" I don't need to say "NO THEY'RE NOT" to vote them.  Post has a fairly excitable tone as well (I'm "disregarding everything Rat says").
Um, no, you can't? If you agree with more-or-less everything he said (and again - where was the disagreement in that post?), then your vote was just as good as a vote made for no reason at all, only more perplexing.

I am absolutely baffled as to why m_c felt the need to roleclaim this early. Snow/etc I can understand, given the recent events in Cthulhu Mafia, but there was really no need for her to roleclaim. Since it wasn't answered the last time, has she played here before? I've been working off the assumption that she was a mafia regular at one time, and not working off that assumption is making me see some (but not all!) of her posts in a different light...problem is, I'm not sure which of the two assumptions is correct.
                                                                                    
I guess the reasoning behind this assumption is the fact that she's an administrator, and it seems like most of the mods/admins on this site have at least played in a couple mafia games and yeah.

Anyway, I still don't understand Tai's sudden switch to Yoshiken. The main issue is, as with many of these sorts of things, the timing. Yes, the deadlines are soft, but they depend on activity, and thus reasonably one could expect about another 8-12 hours maximum under ideal conditions, realistically closer to An hour. Even had you managed to get a substantial push onto Yoshi, there's still the fact that he might not have showed up at that time to defend himself and/or roleclaim. Yet it all seems too brazen to be even a halfway-reasonable Scumplay, really. Not to mention the chances of getting such a push at deadline being extremely tiny...

Now the thing that I don't understand about SnowFire's posts today is that he at one point claims that m_c's claim was partly beneficial as it let Town know the setup better, but at the same time it also let Scum know the setup better. Sometimes having a setup broken open favours Town (see Cthulhu Mafia), sometimes it favours Scum (see Memes Mafia). That being said, at best it's null, and it still seems like a bizarre statement to make. I'm going to chalk it up to Snow being Snow, though.

Anyway, that's me getting caught up to the bottom of Page 12. Up next: the last two pages, and then actual opinions! (most of which are on Xantoro). Holy crap Taishyr do you ever use far too many words to say far too little sometimes.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 30, 2010, 07:55:46 PM
Alright, Alice lives.  That will not be enough to spare him on Day 3, but I will be riding his ass harder on Day 3, so it should all balance out.

As Sasarai said, there are nine people left so far as management is concerned, so five votes is needed for the lynch.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 30, 2010, 08:04:54 PM
...right. Last votecount tells me that PST is, in fact, GMT-7, meaning it's around 10.30 here. I'm out early tomorrow, but will check back before I head off (or will stay up a little longer to be here for deadline, but that means I'll have a point where I go quiet between now and the deadline.)

Zenny: I still see that Snow post as bad, honestly. It reads as just picking out parts to fit his argument, but what with it being early-D1, I don't give it too much credit.

Yoshi: Maybe this is just me personally, but if I'm returning from a long absence the first thing I'm doing is checking the status of my vote to see if it's still valid or not. My vote is the most powerful thing I have and what people are going to judge me on more than any other individual thing so I'm going to be giving it top priority. I guess you feel differently? Playstyle difference, I suppose. Still think my way is better, though.

Regarding Ciato's use of "consistently", maybe yes she did mean more than your latest post. How does her thinking you'd been trying to stick charges on others contradict her agreeing with you about Early LAL being lazy?
[...]
And what, pray tell, are Touhou vibes? What differentiated Touhou from, say, Wily or Hazel or the Axems? (And what constitutes "a while"? I notice this sentiment hadn't been expressed before I started pressing you - in fact, you appeared to really like me in your +/- list - and that you've been focusing on other players in your re-read instead of me as far as I can tell.)
Cut the 3rd para because irrelevant. For the first one, yeah, I guess. I don't want to switch vote to someone without certainty, only to have to change it again 10 minutes later because, oh, hey, they weren't so bad on a reread.
What with the 'consistently' applying to half the sentence, I took it to apply to the rest. As such, I read it as disagreeing with me on everything as well. I can see how it can read differently now that it's been pointed out, but that's how I read it at the time.
And, like I said, I really don't want to follow that route. It's been entirely the impression I've been getting from your posts (and yes, it's been notably different from Axems/Hazel, at least) and I've not mentioned it because I've had nothing specific I could even possibly call you out on. Like I said, you've read pretty pro-Town as me logically, which is why I'm gonna ignore it - definitely prefer the logical arguments over "He doesn't read well! I can't say why, but he doesn't!"

Triple ninja! Will address Zenny and Alice soon. Kilga: it was held as a point against me, and seemed a needlessly harsh position to hold. I probably took that much worse than it actually was, though. Was mostly annoyed about being pressed for not changing vote right after returning from IRL stuff.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 08:05:54 PM
In reading over a couple of the things I've said I notice a potential sticking point for confusion, so let me clear it up now.

The playstyle I mentioned in address one's vote after a long absence does not demand a vote change, merely an update on whether or not the vote is still valid. If it is, then all well and good. If it is not, then it should either be updated or changed, yes (or one can continue to hang on to shoddy reasoning but I'd have no problem calling that scummy).

If Yoshi would like to cry foul and claim that I wanted him to "update the game on his vote ASAP", well...sure, I have no problem admitting to that, and I don't think it's particularly scummy to ask such a thing.

Cut by Yoshi, will read in a moment.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 08:09:02 PM
Ah, okay then. I'm still not a huge fan, but the revised case did eventually come, so. (Need to actually read it properly when there aren't more distracting movies going on, which will hopefully be soon.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 30, 2010, 08:09:34 PM
Updating this with recent information: please mind that the votecount has not changed!

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (4): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan, Carthrat
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat, Roukanken
Taitoro (0): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

With nine left active, only five are required to lynch!
This means that Alice is at L-1, so please keep that in mind!

No more than 3 hours and 25 minutes should remain in the day, ending at 3:35:35 PM PST. It is now 12:10 AM PST.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 08:12:34 PM
Speaking of excuses.  One of my flatmates had a birthday party last night / this morning that involved a ton of people speaking in French and loud music 'till 5:00 AM.  Still trying to parse the latest WoTs.

Quick comment that I can post now, though, but Alice:
Now the thing that I don't understand about SnowFire's posts today is that he at one point claims that m_c's claim was partly beneficial as it let Town know the setup better

Can you be specific as to what I said that caused you to think this?  I just checked my own posts and don't see anything indicating that.

Um, no, you can't? If you agree with more-or-less everything he said (and again - where was the disagreement in that post?), then your vote was just as good as a vote made for no reason at all, only more perplexing.
Also.  Once more with feeling.  The Rat post.  Let's break it down.
Rat A: MC is reporting.  (SF: disagree.)
Rat B: It takes time for lurkers to really become lurkers.  (Everyone: Duh.)
Rat C: Therefore anti-early-LaL is the correct position to have.  (SF: Not really.  Especially if such votes, like mine & Laggy's, are phrased conditionally - i.e. Laggy was saying "If Alice never shows then my vote is serious.)

So, in my view, Rat was combining a weak charge (MC) and some game theory I disagreed with.  Yes, said game theory included one element I did agree with (point B), but I didn't like the conclusion.  And that was it for his contributions at the time.

We good?

Further post on Yoshi / other stuff to come later.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 08:17:28 PM
Yoshi re-read done as far as I'm concerned because I'm going fucking crosseyed.  Honestly, my opinion hasn't really changed much.  I don't like all the misrepping in that last post, but up until that the specific points he brings up (primarily on me, and Laggy in Day 1) are valid enough though I disagree with a lot of them.  That last post isn't looking good but I don't think I'll be switching my vote to him today.  Once more, if it's going to be anyone, it's going to be...

Hey look it's an Alice.  And... lolwhat.  Snowfire agreed with "more or less everything [Rat]'s said"?  He said he agreed with Rat saying it takes time to lurk and went "Meh" to everything else.  That... ... ...

Siiiiiiiiiiigh.  I'm going to take a break.  Alice looks just as bad as before in a kneejerk, but I'll come back in an hour and read over his summary and go back to Snowfire's posts and dump even more time into this game.  Rou looks worse but as far as I can tell but apparently nobody else thinks so.  May well switch my vote to Alice since I'm number 2 in votes and I don't like that at all (durr).

Ninja.  Irrelevant response because I'm off to shoot some dudes for a little bit. PST is GMT-8.  I know because I'm in Mountain, GMT-7.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 08:20:00 PM
Grate. So we're up to two modkills now. First off, an explanation to Kilga since he's apparently wanted one for ages: I'm not sure why/how you think the vote for m_c was made out of nowhere and/or it was "as if my SnowFire vote was some sort of delaying tactic". At the time of my post then, SnowFire had one vote (mine, to be precise), and there were four hours remaining in the day. Realistically the only people that could have gotten lynched at that point were major trains (and see above as to me wondering about Tai for him trying to form a last-minute Yoshi train somehow), i.e. Glen/Rat/m_c/Myself, and I wasn't going to vote for myself, thought the Rat case was dumb, and had Glen throw me for a loop, thus I favoured voting for m_c out of all of them.

Anyway! Xantoro! I... honestly was going to type up a post about this, but given the modkill, it seems best to wait for Xanth's alignment to flip and then re-analyze Taishyr's alignment in that light. For what it was worth, it seemed like a TvT spat, while uncharacteristic for Xanth I think he's even less likely to try voting for himself as Scum given that he plays very strongly to win in Mafia as a general rule. Meta, yes, I know, but it's analysis of an extremely uncharacteristic and bizarre move for him. Have no issues with his content, though a lot of it, as well as a lot of Tai's, seems like nothing more than irrelevant pedantry.

So that brings me to Tai! First off, Tai, thanks for the misrep, but um, no I did not misread Snow's post, as answered above to Kilga my vote for him was not "weak", it was moved due to the goddamn deadline being imminent and a high chance of me not being around again before the actual deadline hits, I thought I stated in that exact post that Glen seemed to me more like an idiot than Overt Scum and that is why I didn't vote him despite me yelling at him for making several stupid mistakes (stupid mistakes! not scummy mistakes), and quite honestly the whole thing seems written surprisingly awfully.

However, beyond this what I get on Taitoro is a strong sense of annoyance, but nothing indicating Scumminess. On the other hand, there's a lot of stuff there that Scum generally wouldn't classically do, such as the deadline Yoshi train, and Xanth does get remarkably iffy near the end - there's a bit of misrep on both sides, though admittedly it started out with Tai, at the same time it's a remarkably bad case and the vehemence with which both of them push their cases through to the point of one of them raegquitting seems a bit...ugh. I will need to think about it a bit more, but I have to say that I'm slightly uncomfortable voting Tai, at least prior to Xanth's flip.

Going to have to reread Yoshi - I did find it a bit bizarre that D1 I was one of the people that he considered that was very good and claimed to feel quite strongly about this, and there's a lot of his posts that just tend to fade into the background, but he seems to at least be posting somewhat interesting/relevant content for the most part, so yeah. Similarly going to have to go over Zenny. And m_c, for like the 15th time, no, I did not misinterpret SnowFire D1. Christ.

More in (yet) another post, still getting caught up.

- tags fixed by mod
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 08:20:42 PM
And I fail at bbcode. Whee. Could one of the mods please fix that tag, thanks?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 08:24:40 PM
Multi-post-drifting whee!

Okay, so with that explained from SnowFire I suppose the main issue that I have is that I strongly disagree with point C, because such votes are meaningless: either the person will start contributing, in which case the votes get removed, or they hit modkill timer, in which case the votes become pointless anyway. This is why pressure/prod votes are dumb, and why anti-early-LAL is, imho, the proper position to have. But seeing as this settles down to a conflict of playstyles and nothing actually relevant to alignment, I think it's best to drop this now. However, I will say that my read of SnowFire has gotten somewhat better as of now.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 30, 2010, 08:35:18 PM
Quote from: SnowFire
* Votes me off what's either a [huge misunderstanding / intentionally critical misreading] because I can agree with part of Rat's statement and still vote him?  If somebody posted "Rainbows are pretty" I don't need to say "NO THEY'RE NOT" to vote them.  Post has a fairly excitable tone as well (I'm "disregarding everything Rat says").
Um, no, you can't? If you agree with more-or-less everything he said (and again - where was the disagreement in that post?), then your vote was just as good as a vote made for no reason at all, only more perplexing.

Umm...yes you can?

Let's say Rat said "The sky is blue.  mc is reportery.  I don't think we should be chasing lurkers this early."
And then Snow said "I don't think mc is reportery.  I support chasing lurkers now.  The sky being blue is self-evidently true, but meh."

Seriously, SnowFire's accusation was active lurking.  How is posting a self-evident-truism NOT active-lurking?  In fact, if anything it strongly supports an active lurking charge.  And outside of the self-evident-truism SnowFire disagreed with every stance Carthrat took.

Quote
Since it wasn't answered the last time, has she played here before?

It was answered last time you asked.  (And even last time it had been previously mentioned by both me and Laggy--two of your top targets).  I'm finding it harder and harder to imagine ways in which you've somehow seen none of the responses.

(Yes, I'm new to Mafia; this is an RPG website, not a Mafia website, so my being an Admin says little.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 08:48:32 PM
/me returns, looks up, sees three Alice posts, is really bloody tempted to not read them just due to, really, three and a half hours until deadline approximately before he could be bothered to post. -_-; (I think I understand pretty well how busy you get, Alice, but... this is still really bloody annoying to have to deal with) But no, I'll look through, give me about fifteen minutes as I just got back home from the shop.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 30, 2010, 08:49:05 PM
Okay, Kilga clarification is fine by me. I'll keep that in mind for future reference, at least.

We KNOW he's an insomniac, and if he's an intrinsic insomniac I'm more inclined to think that he's town (though admittedly that is bad scumhunting and I must ignore that voice in the back of my head), whereas someone who got insomnia from someone else has no such benefit.
Arrrggh. Don't like that, but then, you don't seem to either. And the rest of that was explained decently enough.

Please, you can read better than that.  Rat explained the switch off MC to my satisfaction (whether it's to your satisfaction or not is irrelevant to my thoughts at the time
Sure, but that doesn't make me see it as any less scummy, and it looks like a really easy way for you to switch votes. Considering I was mildly suspicious of both you and Rat before my reread, and, while I've not reread Rat yet, the ones I have looked at have just pushed that a little further, I'm really not liking what looks like an easy jump.
 
Quote
Aasdfdsgfdhgfj the pain (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109136.html#msg109136). No, seriously. Read through Zenny's opinions that have been stated in this post. Earlier, he stated that he could definitely see the logic behind the 'cherry-picking meta,' yet here, he says Laggy 'pretty clearly addressed why' he did it. Now, look at the * paragraph (and the clarification of the meaning later in the post), and then at the paragraph on Xanth. He says that Tai has misrep'd Xanth majorly, then goes on to say that it's "odd that [Xanth is] accusing [Tai] of twisting words around to make them fit his case."

Eh?  In that post I said I don't know why TAI said XANTH was Cherry Picking Meta and wasn't sure what he meant by it.  I also said I didn't like either's misrepresentation of either party, and didn't think much of Xanth's case on Laggy.  Also, if you're going to quote me, quote the whole fucking sentence.
But you said yourself that Xanth was accusing Laggy of cherry-picking meta (or misrep, as you've said it here), so it should be damn obvious what Tai meant. This also doesn't change the fact that you earlier said you understood the case on Laggy.
I'll acknowledge the quote one, must've rushed that one. Fuck. >.<

Quote
Pure semantics, and that's not good to be basing a case on.
Pure semantics it is not.  Huge difference between "why u vote ciato" and "why u no move vote".  One's accusing me of voting for someone while never addressing them, the other's a pure difference in playstyle.
And the quote you used, at least, could be read either way. I also don't remember seeing a counter-quote to show that he said otherwise, which could definitely sway my choice. (Would look, but argh headache from writing/reading WoTs. Probably deserved.)

You know, it's getting harder for me to tell if you're intentionally misrepping me or I'm just writing in heiroglyphics or some shit.  I didn't dismiss Snow's case as not understanding Alice's playstyle, you cunt.  MC (I think it was MC?) said earlier that she didn't understand why Rat couldn't "process a case on Alice."  I excused THAT because of RAT's potential familiarity with Alice.
...Right. Definitely didn't see that in the context, but okay, that's fair enough.

5 replies while typing up that and I haven't even read through Alice's post yet! Fun. >_> Not checking those now, gonna take a break to sort my head out a little. oh hi another ninja not now.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 08:52:10 PM
Hokay. Yoshi and SnowFire rereads now, and hopefully a vote. I'm just going to mentally filter out most of Tai and Xanth's posts right now because oh my god some of this is just ridiculous.

First, Yoshi:
Honestly, his posts seem pretty good to me. His D1 stuff is mostly stuff I agree with - that pressure votes are bad/dumb and shouldn't be removed even if content is produced if content is bad, summaries being a null read, his statements on Laggy, his statements on SnowFire, I all happen to agree with. D2 - opens the day with a Zenny vote, for purported Active Lurking - which seems a tad odd, really, I can't say that Zenthor really fits the "lurking" charge here, opinions are somewhat spotty but they're there and he seems to be playing very similarly to how he played in Cthulhu Mafia as Jack Daniels, so yeah. And... honestly, I agree with his D2 cases too! Including the one against SnowFire (again)!

I do admit I might be a bit biased since I agree with next-to-all of his opinions, but quite honestly, Yoshi reads as Town to me, and I'm not sure what the case on him is, really.

Up next, SnowFire!
I actually think I misread such a claim by you regarding opening up the setup being beneficial in this game - blame it on me being tired. Again, not being too against you for claiming that "something happened to you" at the beginning of D2 after Cthulhu Mafia. The rest of your posts read...oddly. Somewhat active lurky at times, and his D2 posting has been spotty and one of his very few recent major posts in the past 24-or-so hours of D2 was on Xantoro, but...eh. I'd be comfortable with voting him but I'm unconvinced that he's the best target for today. I'll need to go over Zenthor and Roukanken before I fully form an opinion on Snow, and guess what that means? MORE READING! Ugh, remind me to never get this sidetracked in a mafia game ever again, the catching-up process alone is beyond horrible.

m_c ninja: see my reply to Snow above, it comes down to playstyle now, namely that both lurking and active lurking need more than D1 for them to be defined. So while I will (gasp!) agree with you that Rat could be plausibly construed as Active Lurking for his posts so far, D1 is not the time to vote people for Lurking, Active *or* Inactive. But yeah. And yes, apologies for missing that, noted, and please note that the first bit of that post was typed up before reading most of D2, so it is highly plausible that I missed such an explanation (as for missing it D1 - no idea. Maybe I was just more out of it than I thought, rofl).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 09:03:21 PM
Hum dum.

Alice: Reply to this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.325.html) 1) See MC, her not having played before has been said a few different times (I got ninjad typing this) 2) Already explained. I was not reading you, Glen or Rat as scum at the time, and considered Yoshiken worse than all three. I am willing to try and lynch someone I consider scum over someone I don't consider scum, no matter eff all hours are left in the day. That did not factor in to my willingness to at least try. 3) Yes, sometimes I do. Tough, I'm English Major.

Sorry you don't like that D1 SnowFire post being called a misread, but if multiple different people are disagreeing on how to read it, it may be a misread of the post. :/ Yelling it louder doesn't change anything and from a lot of persepctives at this point it really seems like you missed where SnowFire was coming from. (I know I had some backing on the Laggy thing in part which is why the entire thing confused me and why I eventually just boiled it down to see if we could reach a consensus that it was differing readings. ...and then Xanth /quit. -_-)

Ninja ninja none of this changes this post
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 09:15:52 PM
though having someone tell me "Tai, you're probably misreading, this is how we read Laggy (x, y, z), where do you differentiate?" would probably have spared most of day 2, in retrospect. sigh. instead I just got told I was cherrypicking the meta which it didn't (and from my reading, still doesn't) feel like I was doing, but whatevs.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 30, 2010, 09:38:08 PM
Scanned over the latest posts a few times, at least. Alice's posts are reasonable enough again, but oh god the lurking. I'm still damn tempted to vote him, but I'm still seeing Zenny and (pending reread) Rat as scum, so... yeah, if I've got what I see as active scumtells, I'll stick with them over LaL if there are enough. I should take another look through Rat's posts, on that note, but I'm gonna leave that for the Night Phase, kthx, since each summary has taken a minimum of 3 hours so far.
(Alice, I'm expecting at least, like, 20 posts from you tomorrow. Anything less and you're lynched.) (And that is a joke, yes, but you get the idea. It won't take much for me to vote you tomorrow, and it will take a damn good amount of content to change that.)
As it goes, not every point in Alice's posts are perfect, but they're pretty good on the whole (oh hi there possible bias).

I can... sort of see MC's point on Alice's SnowFire case? SnowFire explains it much clearer, and I can only say I didn't read it like that at the time.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 09:52:39 PM
But you said yourself that Xanth was accusing Laggy of cherry-picking meta (or misrep, as you've said it here), so it should be damn obvious what Tai meant.

Because knowing what Xanth means when he uses the term and specifically to where Xanth refers means I know what Tai means when he uses the term, and specifically to where he refers.  Wrong.  

Quote
And the quote you used, at least, could be read either way. I also don't remember seeing a counter-quote to show that he said otherwise, which could definitely sway my choice. (Would look, but argh headache from writing/reading WoTs. Probably deserved.)

And he was CRTL+Fing for Ciato.  Implying that he thought I had some reason to leave my vote on Ciato, not that I was wrong for not moving my vote, something he clearly could have read in the post he linked etc etc etc etc I'm repeating myself at this point.

Mm.  Less and less convinced that Yoshi's case on me is scummy... least not scummy enough to put him in my consideration over Rou/Alice.  A lot of the missed points could be due to reading by last post instead of through the topic.  

---

Waiting for Alice's other thoughts and vote to say much more regarding him. Nothing to do with the fact that I haven't yet reevaluated the end of Day 1 yet.  I suspect that by the time I get done re-analysing the exchange between him and Snow Alice's vote will be up.  If not, I'll bite my tongue 'til then.  
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 30, 2010, 10:09:24 PM
No changes here, move along.

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (4): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan, Carthrat
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat, Roukanken
Taitoro (0): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

With nine left active, only five are required to lynch!
This means that Alice is at L-1, so please keep that in mind!

No more than 1 hour and 27 minutes should remain in the day, ending at 3:35:35 PM PST. It is now 02:08 PM PST.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 30, 2010, 10:16:25 PM
But you said yourself that Xanth was accusing Laggy of cherry-picking meta (or misrep, as you've said it here), so it should be damn obvious what Tai meant.
Because knowing what Xanth means when he uses the term and specifically to where Xanth refers means I know what Tai means when he uses the term, and specifically to where he refers.  Wrong.
I'm not talking about Xanth's use of cherry-picking. You claimed that Xanth misrepped Laggy by only using specific parts of his post. Tai claimed the exact same thing. You also said you don't see what Tai meant by Xanth cherry-picking. Am I missing something here?

Quote
And the quote you used, at least, could be read either way. I also don't remember seeing a counter-quote to show that he said otherwise, which could definitely sway my choice. (Would look, but argh headache from writing/reading WoTs. Probably deserved.)
And he was CRTL+Fing for Ciato.  Implying that he thought I had some reason to leave my vote on Ciato, not that I was wrong for not moving my vote, something he clearly could have read in the post he linked etc etc etc etc I'm repeating myself at this point.
Ahh, that's a fair point. Seeing you in a somewhat better light now, which... argh. Kinda leaves me pondering over my rereads again, and considering a Rat lynch despite the circumstances. At the very least:
##Unvote: Zenthor
(Oh man I'm gonna get attacked for this aren't I? Honestly, I'd rather not potentially contribute to a mislynch. Fuck it, I'll put my vote where my words are. I'm with Tai on pushing someone I think is more likely to be scum with little info over someone I'm not sure on.)
##Vote: Carthrat

argh this game is a headache.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: metroid composite on May 30, 2010, 10:20:06 PM
Few notes before I head out:

Gut reaction to Alice's newer posts is that the writing style makes me happier (clearer and more concise compared to the D1 writing style).

Not really sure how I feel about his content--at very least I disagree with this particular claim:

m_c ninja: see my reply to Snow above, it comes down to playstyle now, namely that both lurking and active lurking need more than D1 for them to be defined. So while I will (gasp!) agree with you that Rat could be plausibly construed as Active Lurking for his posts so far, D1 is not the time to vote people for Lurking, Active *or* Inactive. But yeah.

That you shouldn't lynch Active Lurking day 1.  I disagree because the scum that leave a big paper-trail can be caught later in the game; the people who avoid taking any opinions can't be caught in a contradiction; hence town play should encourage people to provide opinions.  Hey...wait...hold on a minute, Alice's post from day 1...

- The m_c reporting charge is weak? How so? A good amount of her posts feature a bunch of statements about what occured in the game and when, with zero opinion and analysis of them. This type of posting is worthless at doing anything beyond giving the illusion that one is contributing to discussion, i.e. it is classic tell-tale Active Lurking.

You just...contradicted yourself.

SnowFire's D1 vote on Rat is scummy because you shouldn't vote for active lurkers D1.
Rat's D1 vote on me is cool because I was "active lurking".


Umm...yeah, pretty happy with an Alice lynch right now.  (Not putting my vote there yet due to L-1; will hopefully be back before deadline).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 30, 2010, 10:25:33 PM
...lol. Completely missed that one. Haaaah. That really swings things back towards Alice, and I'd push him over Rat here - that said, happy leaving my vote on Rat as well, especially with Alice at L-1!

And, with this, I am reminded of why I said playstyle discussion wasn't a bad thing.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 10:30:11 PM
I don't know if it's because my brain is completely fried from lack of sleep or what, but I'm having a terrible time concentrating on this game right now. Best I can say right now is that Yoshi's case on Zenny, for all that it means now with the switch to Rat (which I don't find particularly bad given they have about an equal chance of getting lynched ahead of Alice at this point), doesn't look terrible, and Alice's posts don't look good enough to ward off the vote.

I think I need to stage of Night 2 at this point to be more coherent and proper (not to mention multiple flips). Ugh, so much lurking from so many people and so many walls of text.

I do, at least, have enough energy to go back and check the thing MC just brought up. Give me a moment.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Kilgamayan on May 30, 2010, 10:31:34 PM
Oh wait, they're both there in her post. Derp.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 10:41:04 PM
Hm.  I WAS going to bite my tongue, but I've got some pretty coherent thoughts on Alice now.  

Alice re-read... hey look mind still hasn't changed.  That he's saying that you can't agree on a truism and think everything else in a post is wrong is such a blatant logical fallacy that it hurts and has already been addressed by Snow and MC.  That both you and Yoshi think this is disregarding things to make Rat's post fit an argument... agh.

Alice's later comments regarding this... saying "NO I DID NOT MISREAD" is probably true.  I don't think that's the problem anymore.  The problem is that you kept advocating an obvious fallacy (that I don't think you're so blind or stupid as to not see) in order to justify your Snowfire case.  Furthermore, the later comments about how you thought it was a bad argument because you agree with Rat's points don't do anything to fill me with confidence regarding your alignment.  (Ninja!  What MC pointed out makes this even worse.

Other things... There seems to me to be a lot of filler in these new posts.  I don't know what Alice was going on about with the whole 8-12 hours past deadline thing, and there's some more chatter about why anti-LaL is bad that feels less than useful given 1 hour til deadline (or perhaps 9-13... >_>).

Alice is looking worse and worse, and I'm the only one who thinks the Rou case has any merit apparently.  I'm willing to hammer Alice if nobody has any objections  (Ninja!  Apparently so is MC), but I'll give him the benefit of the next hour to post some more.

---

YoshiNinja.  Ugh.  Okay, considering all that's happened this gameday, for the sake of avoiding more petty bickering, and especially since everything else about your case has been sound and you've conceded points after I've clarified... I'll address the whole cherry picking whatever when I'm more clearheaded, and respond Day 3.  Fair?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 10:45:08 PM
(Very random side note, further reply to this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109216.html#msg109216): it's possible that Laggy didn't see one example as enough to disprove his point - in fact I'd guess that's where the post of Laggy's immediately after the vote on him comes from. Again, the correlation thing. Multiple points like you provided would probably have done it, but one as was provided... I don't know, that's my best guess of events there. Yeah, pointless side note here, but.)

Next part is in Code Box! Why? Because it's just an explanation of why I asked about Alice and Rat, and features a bunch of jumps it's not really safe to make! Not for those who take logic hella seriously! Hate to tell people to open it in a text document but I've been dealing with guilt over WALLS OF TEXT and this seemed a sane way to deal with it. C+P to text doc if you hate it as a result.
Code: [Select]
(Tai's Stupid Logic (I said it was stupid before we started this, but we got more people to present opinions on Rat/Alice so even if it's full of fucking holes I won't feel terrible.
It might seem suspicious to lead dialogue but they're people I was heavily gutchecking against at the time):
11 people/3 scum/1 ITP. Presume Xanth is town, Kilga is town (hum)/myself as town (this is my [s]story[/s]logic)/Noyn doesn't matter, likely isn't scum (scum would keep Noyn active; if he's scum end conclusion adjusts slightly.).
Reduces down to 7.
I personally have Zenthor and MC as town mentally at this point, think I've explained this.
Down to 5, 3 must be scum (or 2 if Noyn's one, accepting all other conditions of this logic.)
Now, SnowFire, Rat, (and by extension Zenthor and Kilga). SnowFire I crossed off the list at the time due to not seeing how ambivalence on Xanth/Tai benefits scum at all.
Easier to lay down suspicions and try to begin leading into lynching one of us and then the other (again, presuming town/town, which means you have to trust me, but I worked this logic for my own sake more than for you, so cool it for a moment).
Zenthor did the same thing. (Both expressed slightly more concern over Xanth but if they had tried to lead on it I think Kilga/town would have called them on it, which is why I think it's more of a town motion).
Rat considered both of us far worse, he can't be cleared by this logic. (Kilga considered/considers it possible that one or both sides are scummy still but again, making a case on Kilga, this would be probably a lynchpin and it'd be a [b]hella shitty one[/b]. Opinion on him stands right now.)
SnowFire's out, 4 out of 3: Alice/Rou/Rat/Yoshiken. Of these, I felt Yoshiken was fine (at the time) (as stated earlier)
This gave me a scumset (not by interaction, just by logic) of Alice/Rou/Rat (if Noyn's scum, two of the three, and I had no further jump to make).
And that's why I asked the people I consider town or felt to be decently likely town their opinions of Alice/Rat - I wanted to see where people would end up placing those two.
There's a ton of ass in these assumptions, this is hella flawed and I'm probably opening myself up to 900 bajillion cases, but yeah, that's what lead into that question set, this chain of logic provoked those two questions and little more. I didn't want to lead into the question with this logic because I wanted people to try and do a fresh read of them and give honest feedback on the two, but in a topic this big that's kinda hard, in fairness. Rou's exclusion from the list was because I was reading him semi-okay and, honestly, wasn't comfortable at the time confronting the one person who could back up my partial roleclaim at all - but then it occurred to me that if he had lied I would have hammered him like the fury of a thousand suns, and -obviously- Glen knew what Laggy did N0 so Rou also got that update and -couldn't- feign ignorance. So he had to back me up, and I should've tossed him in. Oh well.

Ninja ninja ... good catch MC I was beginning to waver toward Roukanken (yeah, I have analysis, I'll toss it up after this) but that's something that needs to be explained, badly. I'm mainly posting this up so that Kilga can take one look at it during the night and yell at me for being an idiot, I guess? It's not terribly relevant now, but town deserves to have it on the table just to clarify why I'd do something like that.,
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 10:49:35 PM
An error in the statement in the logic: not that Rat considered both of us far worse but that he "would not object" to lynching either of us, which to me carried the same implication but YMMV.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 10:51:24 PM
Taishyr: Way late now, but since you did ask for my advice, what Kilga said basically, which is hold off on a full roleclaim, but sounds like that's already resolved.

Metroid on Alice: Wow.  Yeah, that makes me fairly happy about keeping my vote where it is.

Yoshiken on Rat: Going back to re-read late Day 1 again...  you've got a point that I may have been too lenient.  I'd kind of merged the timeline together in my head, but Rat's voteswitch was earlier than expected and he only bothered to mention he didn't find the Alice case compelling in a later post.  I can't fault people for vote-switching based on "Well these are the two relevant trains" but meh.  Feel slightly hypocritical since I read Glen's post as bad too but Rat didn't really go into it at all...  okay, yeah.  I do feel somewhat worse about Rat.  He's not getting my vote today because Alice still looks scummy, but worthy of note.

Also, Rat, care to go into any more detail why you don't entirely agree with Zenny's (and to some extent my own) case on Roukanken?  You bring up something you find odd about Rou here but not really why you don't agree with the case.  Too vague, or what?

Tai ninja: Er, I'll give a shot at looking that over, sure.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 10:52:30 PM
eh. it's not really anything worth looking over till the day's done, but I felt it should be posted before the day ended but after everyone said their piece on my question.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 10:53:49 PM
Incidentally, Yoshi's also apparently willing to lynch Alice at this point.  With the votes already on Alice, and the 3 of us willing to switch to hammer... That's everyone but Rou (who doesn't look like he's showing up anytime soon), and Alice himself.

Should we even wait for him to post?  In the (very unlikely, I think, given what MC sniffed out) event that Alice is town his thoughts might be useful, but... uh.  Don't know about you, but I'm ready for this good long night phase.

Tai ninja.  Might address after reading, probably not unless there's something in it that completely changes my mind about Alice.

Snow ninja and Tai ninja while I was typing my ninja response.  Screw it if I get ninja'd again I'm hitting post.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 10:54:20 PM
Clarification: "but Rat didn't really go into *why* at all."

So yeah, basically I buy what Kilga was saying overnight more.  Willing to nudge Rat a bit above Yoshi on this, though I will say that I agree with Rat that too many people are reading towny at the moment and this is making me paranoid.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 10:56:09 PM
Also I'm totally happy with an Alice lynch short of the most amazing roleclaim ever ("I am Haruhi Suzimiya and if you lynch me the game is over?"), but we probably SHOULD let him roleclaim first.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 10:56:55 PM
Fair enough.  That's reasonable.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Yoshiken on May 30, 2010, 11:00:34 PM
On lynching Alice, we know he's been around. It's worth waiting for a roleclaim, even if it'll change nothing. More importantly, I'd rather hear who he targeted, personally. This setup makes it particularly hard to fake claims, from the looks of things.

Snowfire ninja to say basically the same thing.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 30, 2010, 11:07:40 PM
"Not much happening today, is there?"

Sasarai sipped his tea. His adjutant looked up from his papers.

"No, sir, aside from the two deviants being singled out already."

That was true. Two people were up for the chopping block, and the election farce'd take another head. Sasarai shook his head.

"Such dreadfully barbaric methods."

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (2): Metroid, Zenthor, Yoshiken
Alice (4): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan, Carthrat
Zenthor (1): Yoshiken, Carthrat, Roukanken
Taitoro (0): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

With nine left active, only five are required to lynch!
This means that Alice is at L-1, so please keep that in mind!

No more than 29 minutes should remain in the day, ending at 3:35:35 PM PST. It is now 03:06 PM PST.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 11:14:53 PM
Rou day 2 (and Zenthor, because a lot of it's been back and forth between them.) * Post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108964.html#msg108964) that: dismisses my case on him (not entirely to my satisfaction: I'm not responsible for MC/Zenny so trying to ask me about that seems kinda pointless, excuses the first post (I don't tend to cut mercy for first post of people catching up), and dismisses the entire third paragraph by simply addressing one point in it when multiple points were made. Not terribly pleasing. Rest of post... defends Rat, critiques SnowFire (and I don't follow it well, please clarify which post was quoted, to start), then calls Zenthor out for keeping a vote on Ciato. Zenthor responds saying he's annoyed and suspicious that Rou has managed to quote these posts yet not read them. Clarified post here. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109028.html#msg109028)

* Replies here to Zenny (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109066.html#msg109066). I considered this post good originally... mmm. Thinking about it now, I think it's still probably one of the better ones but I also realize now it dances around the charge Zenthor brought up entirely, which is very unsettling. Zenny replies here. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109148.html#msg109148) A reply to Zenthor here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109240.html#msg109240) telling him that he should be scumhunting, Zenny rebuts here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109246.html#msg109246) saying that's what he's doing and he thinks Rou is scum for his actions. I... believe Rou's been silent, since then? Granted, hardly lurking (24 hours and I'd be calling him out, this isn't even 12, I think. Shit happens. Just somewhat wary that he's silent around deadline, but)

Basically, out of that above exchange, I'm torn between Rou completely just missing the entire thing (IOW, town honestly zonking) and Rou having overreached on an attack and being called on it hard (scum). Leaning the latter just based on his attitude toward Zenthor and the repeated insistence on his attack, but... I don't know just yet. In part, I guess pursuing this will depend on how flips today go, but he's back to not looking that great again to me. (Pot, kettle...)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 11:16:06 PM
Ugh, still only partway through a Zenthor reread. Looking at voting Roukanken right now, but this is pending on Zenny's reread result.

Roleclaim is Amnesiac Cop, I can get results but apparently I cannot remember them, this can, at a later time, change. However in my current form I am basically useless. N0 I investigated Kilga, N1 I investigated m_c. That's about it roleclaim-wise.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 11:20:00 PM
Also I have no explanation of what was discovered by m_c beyond the fact that that was a colosally stupid thing to say. I could state that she just felt especially scummy due to excessive amounts of posts and excessively little content, but yeah. Mostly just a what-was-I-thinking thing from D1.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 11:27:08 PM
Argh precisely zero motivation to finish reads since it appears my chance of getting lynched is approximately 100% at this point. From what I've read I have to say that Zenthor looks better than Roukanken, or perhaps at least more honest (not sure if that's the word for it - his arguments seem less contrived). Somewhat iffy on content, but I agree with his Roukanken case, and that Roukanken's rather bad, so yeah. Roukanken's 4 useful posts are a continuation of the m_c train from D1 for the reasons of continuing a D1 case (see any SirAlex post for why doing this blindly, i.e. for the same reasons as D1 with very little/no additional reasons is a bad thing), then shifts to Tai in a rather awkwardly-worded single paragraph where he isn't really clear as to his reasoning (nobody stated that the person you voted for had to be one of Xanth and/or Tai), and then after the (now infamous) Xanth modkill, he switches to Zenny, principally as, well, an OMGUS. Vote preferences at the moment go Roukan > SnowFire >> Everyone else.

##Vote: Roukanken
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 11:29:34 PM
/me rubs head.

For the sake of reference, since yeah, I'm tempted to let the hammer go through, Alice, mind the full claim? (Character, I mean. Yeah, it's not terribly relevant, but I'd like to know this part as well.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 11:34:31 PM
Radius, famed knight of Termina, or at least I think I am/once was, I think. (this is flavour).

Incidentally, Tai, I still find your initial switch to me a tad artificial. Kilga at least justifies it with LAL, and everyone else has good reasons, but yours seem wrong, regurgitated or forced. Mind re-stating your case on me (having read my most recent posts would be nice, but not necessary, given the impending deadline).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: SnowFire on May 30, 2010, 11:36:06 PM
So Alice.  Just to confirm, your role PM give you no idea as to what kind of conditions are we talking about here?  No idea if this is "remember on LYLO" or "remember X days later per investigation" or "remember upon level-up effect" or something?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 30, 2010, 11:41:00 PM
"So, day end?"

Sasarai nodded.

"But lord Blight won't act until he's bored."

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (2): Taitoro, Zenthor, Alice
Carthrat (2): Metroid, Zenthor, Yoshiken
Alice (4): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan, Carthrat
Zenthor (1): Yoshiken, Carthrat, Roukanken
Taitoro (0): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

With nine left active, only five are required to lynch!
This means that Alice is at L-1, so please keep that in mind!

Day has ended! However, the day phase continues until conversation has stopped interesting Luca Blight!
For the record, it ended five minutes ago, so at 3:45 I will end the day at my discretion if no interesting conversation is on-going.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 11:41:26 PM
I've replied to your most recent posts, source here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109311.html#msg109311). And as for the "artificial"... I presented my case, I'm sorry you don't like it? Last two lines summarized, effectively:
Quote
So here, Alice, have a vote for active lurking and lack of content D2, as well as attacking easy case (MC) and pitnicking SnowFire while accusing Glen of doing the same to you, as I wonder if you were just waiting for one of Xanth or myself to noose up completely:...

The active lurking was redacted the next post - as Zenthor said you'd have to be posting to be active, sooooo. But yeah, I don't know what you don't like, frankly it felt like you went after MC as an easy case and were willing to nitpick SnowFire while accusing Glen of doing the same. Regurgitate. Not sure what else you want here, dude. Yeah, my vote's standing, no real objection to Rou or Alice going here as both seem off to me. But.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 11:41:58 PM
It hinted at a level-up effect, but that's about it.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 11:44:35 PM
@Tai: the main thing is that you never replied to my explanation of that, I wasn't willing to nitpick Snow, I was willing to lynch him, and then we hit 4 hours to deadline, and I was the only one voting him, and I had to leave to be somewhere else, and there was a good chance that I wasn't going to return, thus moving my vote to one of the major trains of the day. How is this somehow bad?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 11:46:37 PM
*as Zenthor said (COMMA)

I need a damn break from this game for a bit. We know where I stand, right? I'll continue responding to Alice but otherwise I'm done for the day, if no one else has anything to say... let loose the Beast of war.

Alice - you -did- pitnick/misinterp (one or the other, honestly, I don't know what happened with your SnowFire vote but you got very critical and something went off on one sentence and voted him solely off that) SnowFire.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Cotigo on May 30, 2010, 11:48:03 PM
Oh shit almost missed deadline because I was playing flash games. >_>

Okay.  So.  Radius the Amnesiac cop.  This.... does little to change my mind about Alice, neither does him piping in to agree with my case on Roukanken.  I don't really see the benefit to getting the answer to Snow's question, but... I'll give it a few minutes since Sasarai doesn't seem to have come back.  I'll give it like 5 minutes and then hammer.  Any objections?

Ninja.  Hey, look the answer, and something else.  This is bad because the only reason you gave for finding MC suspicious was the reporter charge, which some of us don't think was a strong one (especially since you didn't really say anything more than "MC IS REPORTING", and in light of recent mis-speakings looks even worse AFAIC.

I'll still give it a minute for someone to voice any objection to me hammering.  I want to be done with this day already.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 11:48:27 PM
return before deadline*

And yes, it wasn't based off of much. D1 case and all that. I still feel there was enough there that made voting him at that time not a wholly unreasonable concept, though.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Taishyr on May 30, 2010, 11:49:24 PM
It was... still (something) while you attacked Glen for the same on you, which feels off.

Well, we'll see.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Alice on May 30, 2010, 11:49:39 PM
And yes, I'm just about tired with this game myself, just wasted literally most of the day reading it only to get lynched. Oh well, my fault for vanishing for most of D2. Hammer away in 5 minutes if there are no objections.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Tohsaka Rin on May 30, 2010, 11:51:37 PM
I see no reason to further prolong the deadline. It looked like it was warranted for a moment, but it no longer does.

There will be no further conversation from this point. The Day has ended, and Alice will be sent as a sacrificial pig to ease Luca Blight's boredom.

Noyn and Xanth share similar fates.

Excal will come along later to present the flips, so please wait warmly until then.

- mod edited for great justice
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: Excal on May 31, 2010, 08:12:27 AM
"I see no reason to further prolong the deadline," Kefka said.  No one was entirely certain where he had gotten the wonderfully bushy beard from, but no one felt inclined to ask.  Or at least, risk the consequences of asking.  "Radius will be remanded into the custody of Luca Blight whereupon he will be gutted lik..."

(http://www.court-records.net/rips/bubble-objection.gif)

"Alright!  Who dares object to my verdict!"

"I do," stated a dapper man in a maroon suit accompanied by a scruffier fellow in a dirty coat.

"So, you've got a problem with us dragging this guy away," Kefka said, jerking his thumb and Radius, and seeming almost gleeful at the prospect of being challenged.

"Not at all," the fellow says, waggling his finger at Kefka.  "I come instead of this person." he says, pointing at Janice, the Chrono Cross Bunny Girl.

"What do you want with her?"

"Because she is really this," he says calmly handing over a picture from the Court Record.

"So you're saying that this bunny girl is actually a giant badger."

"A simple investigation will show there is no other verdict."

(http://www.court-records.net/rips/bubble-objection.gif)

"Your honour, this pig is clearly insane!" Luca stated, with his brand new blue suit (of armour) and a new, different, spikey hair cut.  "Anyone can see the bunny ears, clearly demonstrating that she can only be a bunny pig!"

(http://www.court-records.net/rips/bubble-objection.gif)

"Your honour, a prosecutor never goes to trial without perfect evidence!  And I shall present it!  Take a look at this photograph."

"Hah!" sneered Luca.  "You can clearly see the bunny ears in this picture."

"He's right!  An obvious sign that you're wasting the court's time.  I'll give you one chance to rebut before you're well done!"

"For a perfect prosecutor such as myself, one chance is all I need!  If you would just turn your attention to this spot here."

"The base of her ears?"

"Precisely.  If you note, that line right there is indicative of a hairband."

"Which means?"

"If you look further, you will see the width is of the sort used for novelty hairbands, and furthermore, the ears themselves are attached to the hairband!  Detective, if you would demonstrate what this means?"

"Sure thing, Mr. Edgeworth!"

"N-n-NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!" Janice screamed as Gumshoe reached out and easily tore off the fake ears, leaving behind a stunned court.

"It IS a giant badger." Kefka stated in wonder, as they all looked at the figure formerly known as Janice.

"I was fooled by a pig!" Luca wailed at the same time.

"Indeed," Edgeworth said as he gave a bow.  "A perfect case, with perfect evidence, for a perfect verdict.  The only thing left is to find his true identity.  Detective?"

Gumshoe also set to that with a will, quickly grabbing the Badger's head, as the person inside scrambled back, leaving the head behind, revealing Officer Mike Meekins.  And also revealing the gun in his hand.

"No!  No you won't!  I'm not coming back!  If you try it, I'll shoot you!"

"Hah, you can't trick me, Pal!  Even I know that the Bad Badger's gun only fires blanks!"

"N-n-n-NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

"Well, now that this is done," Edgeworth stated, "I think it is time for us to head back to the precinct, and have a very long discussion about your salary, officer."

And with that, the three of them left, the detective dragging off the catatonic officer.

"Well then.  Now that that delightful interruption is out of the way, I sentence Radius to be held by Luca Blight, to be slaughtered like a pig at earl"

"ENOUGH!" came the furious voice of Rolf Lansdale as he stormed out of the Gallery.  "I've had it to here with this farce, and I'm not going to stand for it anymore.  I mean...  I've even figured out who everyone else is and...  they'll make the more annoying parts of the DL be annoying somewhere else if we just let them do their thing.  So that's it, I'm leaving!"

"Hold on, no one said you could leave yet!" Kefka said in his most menacing voice as he began to loom over the departing Rolf.

This proved to be a poor choice of actions as the angry godlike simply blasted him with a shot of Megid and continued on his way.

Radius, seeing his chance also rose up in defiance.

"Aha!  As he stood against injustice, so will I stand against you!  Today, you face the finest swordsman in all of Termina!  If I can just remember where my sword is."

As he stood around trying to remember where it was, Luca simply walked up and cut him down, and with a glare, sent the rest of the group off into hiding for the night.

NOYN (Mike Meekins - SCUM BADGER) has had his salary renegotiated.
Xanth (Rolf Landale - TOWN GODLIKE) has walked off.
Alice (Radius - TOWN AMNESIAC COP) hath been slain.


Night starts now.  There will be at least 48 hours before Day 3 starts.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on May 31, 2010, 04:58:02 PM
(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9115/advicemomiziyuyuko.jpg)

I don't think anyone didn't see this one coming. (Amusingly, I had already made it a while ago for an MotK topic, as can be seen if you've been following the filenames.)

This is probably the worst possible outcome that wasn't a triple town flip, and even that is arguable because if there were still three scum alive they'd at least theoretically all be connectable to each other.

After MC caught that contradiction I was confident we'd see a ScumAlice flip, and had been racing theories through my head as to what that meant for the Day 1 trains. This was an unpleasant surprise to wake up to, and I'll be pretty much working from scratch. Not having had time to go through the topic properly again (ugh, not looking forward to that), my thoughts generally keep settling on Rat, who has managed to slide very smoothly onto both lynch trains at fairly opportune times. My gut (ugh x2) still doesn't like Yoshi for some reason but I can't pursue that in good faith if I don't find something logical to back it up. Still not a big fan of Tai either. The people least offensive to my memory are MC and Zenny.

Just woke up and don't feel like diving into this game first thing, especially not with 48 hours with which to work, so it'll be a while before I produce something more substantial.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Axel on May 31, 2010, 06:03:42 PM
Good evening DL Mafia! Are you ready...to ROCK!? By special invitation from Luca Blight himself(hey, it's a paycheck), The Dark Hero(that's me!) is here to serenade your senses with some classic rock and roll.

So let's get this show started with a little tribute to all my fellow vanilla scummies out there. It's a moving piece that I like to call Scum Killin' Roles, and it sounds a little something like this. (http://vodpod.com/watch/2569463-fat-bottomed-girls-queen-high-definition)

Are you gonna kill some town tonight
Ah they can't even try to fight
Are you gonna take somebody out
Scum killin' roles
You make the rockin' game go round

Hey
I was just a 'nilla goon
Never had no role to use
But I knew there's always something' I can do, huh
Stab a townie in the head
Gonna kill that sucka dead
Then act surprised that he's gone missin' on day two

Hey hey!

I've been singing with my band
Across the forum across the land
I seen every sharp eyed townie on the way, hey
While their logic and their guile
Might keep them off the rope a while
Scum just kills 'em in the night every time
C'mon

Oh wont you kill some town tonight?
Oh they can't even try to fight
Oh just gotta hope there ain't a doc
Scum killin' roles you make the rockin' game go round
Scum killin' roles you make the rockin' game go round

Hey listen here
I've seen big role madness games
With night actions gettin' all insane
But there's nothin' wrong with a vanilla role (I tell you)
Oh you can still have your hour
Still got your greatest power
Votes and night kills are what gives Mafia it's soul!
Now get this

Oh (I know) you gonna kill some town tonight (please)
Oh they can't even try to fight
Oh you gonna take somebody out
Scum killin' roles you make the rockin' game go round
Yeah
Scum killin' roles you make the rockin' game go round

Get on your comps and type!

Oooh yeah, alright, them scum killin' roles!


Thank you and goodnight everybody! No autographs, please.

(Standard Disclaimers: Yes, this is Gate. No, I'm not playing or making any comment on the setup. This is purely for entertainment value.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on June 01, 2010, 12:13:51 AM
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3146/advicemomizimafia7.jpg)

I was debating breaking my Day 1 vow and posting my Milfeulle cosplay as tonight's bonus content, but given the circumstances that's probably not in the best taste.

Spending the day away from studying the Mafia topic has left two things weighing on my mind. The first were my brief comments about Rat from my previous post, and only recently did I realize that I couldn't remember a risky stance Rat had taken. He's spent pretty much the entire game pursuing easy targets:

- Day 1 he spent most of the day pressuring MC who was doing all sorts of easy-to-pick-at newbie things before flopping over to a replacement for a player that had garnered a bunch of negative attention, for reasons I'm still iffy on. It is interesting to note that one of Rat's later-cited reasons for now thinking MC is town is because he expect "newish scum to lurk more than MC has" - where was this sentiment on Day 1, where, of the many charges brought against MC, plain ol' lurking was definitely not one? It is also interesting to note that all of Rat's other cited reasons for thinking MC town are for things MC did after his vote switch, which does nothing to explain why he switched in the first place given how enthusiastic he was about that case at the time.

- Day 2 he prefaces his Zenny case with "it feels like it took him a long time on day one to come out with a 'serious' case on me", and I'm not really understanding why that's a particularly bad thing given he didn't have a vote on Rat before that. I can see the "reactionary" charge as it pertains to Day 1; kinda ambivalent on it for Day 2, given his first post did promise thoughts (presumably meant to be a case, which they did turn into), though they came later than promised. That being said, opening the day with a defense before going off to pursue a case was demonstrated in this very game to not be a scumtell, as it's how Xanth opened Day 2 as well, so I somewhat question its use. The case on the whole I'm lukewarm about; it doesn't look terrible, but it doesn't really wow me, as it's really just "being reactionary on Day 1" combined with "this is a pretty incorrect post" (the specific nature of which risks diving into OMGUS territory but eh). I actually think the post Rat DOES bring up looks good on the whole in regards to the "reactionary" accusation.

The switch to Alice is just flat-out lazy, though, and I really don't like how he gives himself an excuse to not have to do any real work with "I'm too muddled to figure something else out". Your short paragraph on Roukan didn't show anything you liked about him while pointing out a couple of things you didn't like/points against him you agreed with; why not try pursuing that as well, even if you think your vote is still going to go Alice's way? Because you "would rather pursue [the Alice case]?" What was there to pursue? The guy had done basically nothing all game and literally nothing so far that day. You easily could have taken the time to decide which of your two minds about the Rou case you agreed with more.

Basically I am very unimpressed by Rat's entire Day 2, he kept a very low profile and the Alice vote was incredibly lazy (almost self-admittedly so). This stacks on top of questionable circumstances regarding his Day 1 switch from MC to Glen to make me think he is likely scum.

Post splitting here for the second thing.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on June 01, 2010, 12:16:36 AM
(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/4428/advicemomizimafia8.jpg)

Only VSM will appreciate this. (Sadly based on a true story, but it does have a happy ending; I was able to trade him away and my only current bad contract is Donyell Marshall's, which is shorter and less expensive anyway.)

The second thing that's been bothering me is just how much of this game has been pixelbitching over semantics and different interpretations of things. Obviously the Xanth/Tai spat is the major offender here but there's been a good deal of it even outside of that. I don't think these sorts of arguments will help us; rather, I expect they distract us and do not find scum. I don't know how much of it I've been directly responsible for starting, but from my standpoint I feel like Tai's been doing it more than anyone else I've seen. I also now somewhat feel like I got duped into that Alice vote, like Tai was trying to shift attention away from the spat with Xanth and onto a lurker that had lurked so bad no one could really form a proper defense for him. Admittedly a good chunk of this is feeling more than the direct logic game, but there is some of that as well; Tai ripped Alice's Day 1 play up and down in the post where he voted for Alice (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109192.html#msg109192). This is a very stark contrast to his Day 1 read of Alice, where he felt good enough about Alice to vote Glen over him, then to switch to Yoshi ahead of both, then to go back to Glen. Obviously nothing had changed about Alice's Day 1 play since then, because it was Day 2, and Alice's overall status having changed due to his hardcore absence is irrelevant to this particular issue.

tl;dr Tai goes from "okay" read to "terrible" read on Alice's Day 1 play without any actual change in that play, and uses that to substantiate a vote for an incredibly easy target (with the potential added bonus of distracting from the day's major spat). Do not like this at all, and my misigivings about his Glen vote that I discussed Night 1 and continued to discuss Day 2 still stand to a degree.

Do I think Rat/Tai is a plausible scumpair? Off the top of my head I don't recall anything that suggests it isn't; I know Tai wanted several of us to re-read Rat and give our honest opinions, but I believe that was before the Noyn modkill was announced. I will have to spend time later going through the topic properly to look for things that suggest/decry the idea of those two being a pair, though, and I'll also want to go over a couple of other people just so the entirety of my Insomnia isn't spent on those two (Roukan is, again, jumping to my mind as the most potentially offensive, so he'll definitely be one re-read, but we'll see where that goes).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on June 01, 2010, 12:19:18 AM
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2989/advicemomizimafia9.jpg)

On a relatively unimportant side note, the topic title says "Day 3" rather than "Night 2". Just checking in to make sure this is a mistake and not some strange game machination.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night X+1)
Post by: Excal on June 01, 2010, 12:41:59 AM
Fixed.  For a given definition of Fix.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night X+1)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on June 01, 2010, 11:24:24 PM
(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9828/advicemomizimafia10.jpg)

Brief note: In writing this post I remembered that everyone appeared to have a vote on Day 2, which could mean many different things regarding Noyn's votelessness. Given he has now flipped scum, at this point I believe speculation on the origin of the votelessness is time-wasting at best and, if it is indeed the result of someone's night action, I believe that night action to be a null tell (i.e. don't go claiming it expecting to get townie cred for it if you have it). Hopefully this will be the most anyone has to say on the subject, barring some earth-shattering revelation.

Day 1 interaction between Tai and Rat, outside of joke votey things, is mostly limited to Tai's assessment of Rat here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108794.html#msg108794), if it can be called an assessment ahead of a list of actions. (For all the relevance it may have now, I did not try to spin MC's second set of reasons for her Xanth vote as her oriignal reasons, I asked her why they weren't her original reasons because Xanth had done basically nothing in between her two posts that I could recall. Given that, it came off as her getting called on having flimsy reasons for her vote and making up new ones to counter the pressure, which is scummy.)

Day 2 interaction is a little more substantial, and starts here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109076.html#msg109076), going through a few more posts after. The interaction doesn't feel like anything special one way or the other, it starts fairly reasonable before shrinking down to game theory. Then there's Tai's call for a Rat reread (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109164.html#msg109164), though I question the specific request for original content; I don't believe agreeing with existing cases and voting based on that is inherently scummy, as sometimes people just make the cases you would have made before you had a chance to. Repetition is fine by me as long as one can properly explain why they agreed with the case they agreed with over the other existing cases made available to them. Given that I don't see a whole lot of "oomph" behind this request.

Tai's major Rat post is here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109191.html#msg109191). Lots of things Tai doesn't like about Rat, but the vote eventually lands on Alice instead with no particular explanation why Alice was chosen over Rat.

Ultimately, there's nothing I could point at and go "THIS IS CLEARLY A SCUM TEAM" (though I kind of want to lean that way after the Large Wall of Things Wrong With Rat that got one-upped by the complete 180 on Alice), but that wasn't the point of this exercise; there's also nothing I could point at and go "THIS IS CLEARLY NOT A SCUM TEAM". To maximize clarity here, Rat and Tai are my top two suspects, and nothing they have produced has convinced me that they could not be buddies, so I have zero issues with pursuing both.

---

Since Tai did mention my name when dropping his reasons for the Alice/Rat question, it would be rather rude to not at least give it mention. I'm not entirely sure what he wants, though, as I think even without removing so many names to do it, asking people about Alice and Rat was a reasonable thing to do. I don't think it's a tell one way or the other on his alignment, at least. My only concern with the logic itself is how many people get tossed out due to leaning town on them, and how Snowfire gets tossed for being ambivalent to the spat (scum would be stupid to attempt the "lead into a lynch of one and then the other" idea because they'd get called on setting up an "if X flips town lynch Y" scenario almost immediately). He admits most of it is for his own internal thought process, though, so there's really not a whole lot to say about it.

---

A Roukan reread will come at some point later tonight (though before the 48 hour deadline), but there's a decent chance his is the only one I will likely do. Zenny reads as the towniest player to me at the moment, as I thought he had a very solid Day 2. MC I have some paranoid thoughts about but I still feel is townie as I think a third scum partner would have tried to wrangle her in more given how much nothing Noyn did. I've decided Yoshi has defended himself decently so he's not a high priority anymore. Snowfire is the one other person I am likely to reread, as I don't remember a whole lot of what he did on Day 2, and that sort of feeling never sits well.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night X+1)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on June 02, 2010, 05:12:17 AM
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3306/advicemomizimafia11.jpg)

For some reason, I cannot seem to wrap my head around this game anymore. Ugh.

I think Zenny's case against Roukan is mostly valid (though I think the game theory issue of how liberal one should be with their vote in ED1 is not a tell in either direction), but...I'm having an extremely hard time explaining why I favor the Rat and Tai cases ahead of it. I guess it's mostly because I think Roukan's votes have been better on the whole; none of them strike me as bad as the TaiRat Day 1 Glen votes or Day 2 Alice votes.

This is normally where several long paragraphs would go detailing each little thing Roukan has done, but I'm having a very tough time digging up the energy for it. Best I can offer is that I think, even with the questionable side cases (e.g. Zenny), Roukan's votes themselves have been for decent reasons, outside of arguable the one he cast when he first entered the game (though I can't fault him for it THAT much). In the case of the Glen vote, he at least had stated suspicion of the guy in his MC vote post, so it's not like it was completely out of nowhere, even with the player meta pass he gave to Alice. There's also this stuff (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109135.html#msg109135) I discuss with Tai that makes me wary of a Roukan case if Tai was trying to sell Roukan as scum using those reasons.

But then there's the almost-throwaway vote for Zenny after the Xanth modkill, with no mention at all of the Alice case and excuses for not having to do any more work like Rat. Ugh. The Day 2 lack of presence is very similar to Rat as well. The one obvious difference is that Roukan landed his vote somewhere where it was very likely to not make a difference while Rat shuffled the Alice train further along. Which one is worse? My heart says the Alice vote, because it doesn't know what ScumRoukan could possibly be looking to accomplish with that Zenny vote, but my head has no clue.

At this point I am more than exhausted with this game and would dearly like to see another flip and more night actions taking place and to get more opinions on the table. Currently I would not be at all surprised of our two remaining scum were in the Tai/Rat/Roukan group. Terribly sorry I'm not making more of this role than I am.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night X+1)
Post by: Alice Margatroid on June 02, 2010, 07:54:06 AM
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8799/advicemomizimafia12.jpg)

No new game analysis from me, but I figured I'd get this out there nonetheless since I'm about 98% sure I won't live to see Day 3 regardless of how right all of the above blathering is and it may help put a role puzzle together later. Maybe.

I appear to have been acted upon on Night 0. I am actually unsure about this, as my role PM was rather ambiguous as to whether or not I could do anything other than talk at night, and the notice I recieved was likewise ambiguous as to whether or not it was an inherent effect. Whether it came from myself or an outside source, the effect was positive, and given what it was I feel relatively confident it was town in origin (WARNING: Not a guarantee), but I won't say more than that. (This assumes, of course, that the effects of the boosts are tied to the boosts themselves and not inherent to the player, which may not actually be true.)

It is...outside-chance-possible it is a very kooky side effect of Alice's role, though I rather doubt it. MC might be able to shed some light on that subject, if she deems it prudent.

Off to bed. If I don't wake up, good luck to town. Personal preferred lynch order is Rat > Tai > Rou > ??Snow??. Flop Tai and Rat around if Tai tries to play the sympathy card set up by the third "paragraph" in this (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109268.html#msg109268) post, as Xanth's flip is a minor-at-best part of my case against him.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) - LYLO
Post by: Excal on June 02, 2010, 08:34:25 AM
When everyone returned the next day, they found one of their number had arrived early.  However, he didn't respond when anyone said hello.  A quick inspection showed the cause, as there was a knife sticking out of his ribs.  A fitting end for Balk Fenzol.  However, despite finding some traces of Mosfungus Poison on his fingertips, they could find no sign of his being an impostor.

Yoshiken (Balk Fenzol - Town Poisoner) has been assassinated.

As the group was busy absorbing their losses, they heard their tormentors speak up behind them.

"Such a poor lost group, at least it'll all be over soon," Kefka almost sang.

"So true," Luca sneered.  "I think this is the last day for these little piggies.  Why, just one vote wrong, and it'll all be over."

"Well..." Kefka mused, "Maybe not all over.  There is still a chance, but not much of one.  I know I'd never be crazy enough to bet on it."

"Heh, then let's see if this group of screwups can find the wolves in their midst."


MOD NOTE:

Yes, it is LYLO.  As things currently stand, if there is a Town on Town vote then there is an almost negligable chance that Town can still win.  That said, there will still be a three day time limit.

Unfortunately, MC's move is happening right now, so Bard will be coming back in as the role was originally his.

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 02, 2010, 11:58:37 AM
Right then, gimme a whole to properly re-read everything.

On a side note: Hi guys! I know about as much as you guys do and I'm relatively caught up on the thread, just gotta re-read with the eye on who to accuse for the day!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Taishyr on June 02, 2010, 12:35:31 PM
......


wait, it's LYLO? 3 scum remain? ... and one's already... ... oh for pete's sake. we had four scum from the get go and a third party? need to go back and really relook at that logic now, but... this plus yoshiken's death... shit, almost everyone's back on the table now. no, apparently it's two scum and ??????. reading what Excal's posted, if town lynches town there's still a chance at town surviving, which can't happen if it's 6/3 objectively. so... yeah.

I'll be honest in saying I'm flat-out tired, too, but for the sake of night effects: My role has been confused/diverted again; I strongly believe that it's been diverted to scum. I cannot, however, confirm this; it's mainly due to "twice in a row + Rou (one of my top suspects) knows what it does" that I'm incredibly suspicious. Paranoid, perhaps, but it's one of my strongest leads (especially since I can't seem to scumhunt worth shit right now). Something else also happened overnight, but I don't feel as inclined to share that notice for right now. I'll do so if it becomes relevant. I'm looking at Rou highly, will relook Rat. The intended target for my night ability was Zenthor, but it was highly implied it did not get there. Zenthor, confirm/deny receiving tasty?

About all I have to say to Kilga is that no one was 'ffing commenting on Alice during day 2 anyway until the end. It wasn't until I reread during day 2 that I caught the hypocrisy between him calling SnowFire out on a nitpick/misread and calling Glen out on doing the same to him, which is what fueled most the case aside from his extreme silence - and thus the extreme flip between thinking he was okay, if quiet, and thinking he was lurking scum. Then again, hypocrisy seems to have been Town here as well. buh goo.

Bard: Hio.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Carthrat on June 02, 2010, 03:21:25 PM
Probably only two scum actually. If Yoshi's poisoner role is basically a delayed NK, then the reason for the whole 'lylo, but not!' thing may be that he targeted a townie last night, which means three townies could be dead by tomorrow morning, ergo scum win with just two. Yeah anything is possible but it seems likeliest to me.

I find it doubtful that Kilga and Zenthor are scum offhand, and point mainly to their regular contributions over the course of day two, which struck me as both genuinely investigative and huntery (zenthor in particular, although mainly because I had my eye on him throughout the day owing to my case, which at this stage I don't think I'm going to be pursuing.) If Kilga's scum, then he put a fuckton of effort into posting at night, whereas I imagine most scum would be somewhat, uh, lazier.

Anyhow that leaves metroid, rou, and snow who I want to investigate. Which will not happen tonight.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 02, 2010, 03:57:29 PM
I can now confirm that I was acted upon Night 0. Shame, I was hoping that effect was inherent, but so it goes. Bard, did you get a nifty little effect on Night 1 that seemed town in origin based on what it was? I don't recall MC claiming anything of the sort, just that she acted on SnowFire, but given what it was she may not have been inclined to mention it.

Rat's speculation was mine as well upon seeing that flip, though Excal's wording regarding a Townie voting for a Townie seems to suggest a scum rush is still possible.

Tai, you'll understand if I'm less than enthusiastic about putting something else onto your "I missed it the first time" list. Don't forget what you said (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109243.html#msg109243) about carelessness.

Rat, where is Tai on your list of people? What do you think of him offhand?

I have something else on my mind but I want Roukan to post first.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 02, 2010, 04:42:12 PM
Work work quick response etc

I received nothing last night, Tai. 
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Taishyr on June 02, 2010, 04:52:56 PM
right.

Kilga, fair, but that's all I can really say. You seem honestly determined to find fault with me, and as I said, I can't blame you with how shitty my game's been thus far.

I'm at a friend's, will not be really paying attention to this game for the next 24-36 hours.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Taishyr on June 02, 2010, 04:53:19 PM
And I'd like to know where the hell I am on Rat's list, too, but.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 02, 2010, 05:33:24 PM
I can now confirm that I was acted upon Night 0. Shame, I was hoping that effect was inherent, but so it goes. Bard, did you get a nifty little effect on Night 1 that seemed town in origin based on what it was? I don't recall MC claiming anything of the sort, just that she acted on SnowFire, but given what it was she may not have been inclined to mention it.

Remind me to get back to you on that. Excal only told me last night's action, not all nights' actions and happenings.

oh PS: please don't vote until you're sure the guy you've got is scum, Excal said Town on Town vote = negligible chance of winning so uhhhhhh 3 scum or doublevoter? No, I don't care if that's inciting paranoia, better to err on the right side of caution, right.

Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 02, 2010, 05:52:03 PM
Update: Received nothing at all the entire game.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 02, 2010, 06:55:05 PM
Okay, I think it's safe to assume it wasn't a side effect of Alice's power (unless Bard is lying scum but I don't know why he'd lie about this), for however unlikely it was in the first place.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 02, 2010, 08:27:05 PM
Right.  Turbo post on lunch break, need to get back to work, etc.

We doing a mass roleclaim or not?  I'll hold back for now but was kind of expecting mass claim madness since it's apparently LYLO.

Quote
"Your honour, this pig is clearly insane!" Luca stated, with his brand new blue suit (of armour) and a new, different, spikey hair cut.  "Anyone can see the bunny ears, clearly demonstrating that she can only be a bunny pig!"

LOLOLOLOLOL.  Phoenix Blight?  Oh dear.  Nice one, Excal.

Also we are up against a truly terrifying foe indeed if they can summon the likes of MIKE MEEKINS to be on their side.

LYLO: Whaaaaaaaaaaat?  Shouldn't we have two more lynches to play with?  I've got a few ideas in my head as to why this could possibly be but hmm.  Getting bad memories of Villain Mafia here where scum had a 3P survivor Rat on their side who functionally was scum, so if something similar is at work here there might be "2.5" scum.  I am almost 100% certain that there are still only 2 scum, though, because PLYLO should probably have been declared yesterday if there were 4 scum total, I think?  What with what'd have happened if there'd been 3 town flips.  And 4/13 scum = u mad?, anyway.

Carth's explanation is plausible but meh.  If that is what happened then a town mislynch of the poisoned person or a scum NK of the poisoned person means we make it to Day 4, and Excal said "negligible" chance of a town win which sounds rather more apocalyptic.  Not that I'm sure of any better answer, mind.  I'd be happier with the 3P + 2 scum answer if we didn't already have a 3P flip.

Alice case: Whaaaaaaaaaat Alice was town?!  ...damnit.  Especially after MC caught that contradiction + the cop claim, I was fully expecting a scumAlice flip like Kilga.  Well.  Crap.

Roukanken case: I'm still pretty pumped to lynch Roukanken.  His case on MC was nitpicky and old, though I guess he did back off it.  His D2 attack on Zenny is seemingly based on OMGUS and emotion?  That or he dredged up his very bad D1 case against Zenny.  Roukanken did say he was stressed in that post but meh, if you ARE town, then please don't flail out like this.  He has also attacked me for strange nitpicks like Alice did, still not happy about that for obvious reasons (though Alice's flip makes me somewhat more gunshy of this charge).  Kilga has a point that I'm not sure what scumRoukan was trying to accomplish by hitting Zenny but I'm not really inclined to write off bad play because it's not optimal bad play or something.

Taishyr case: I've never been able to quite get a handle on Taishyr, but Noyn's flip does make him look bad to me at least.  He's on the record as having powered-up Quiet Rainkanken N0 and Noyn N1 (maybe?  Tai said he was confused then, though)...  and Rou just happens to be my number 1 suspect.  Then there was the epic Xanth / Tai clash which...  blargh.  That kind of bullheaded rush on one towny IS kind of odd for scum to pull, but hardly unheard of, and more generally I think Kilga has a point that Tai has helped make cases about minituia and pixelbitching over ultimately minor points. 

The claim of being bus driven is interesting, will wait for more people to chime in here to see if we can solve this role puzzle.  Thing is I'm willing to believe that Taishyr has just plain been lying about that, though, and that the reason there was no N2 power-up was because Tai either quietly powered up his scumbuddy with no claim, or because Tai went on the kill due to Noyn's death.

I will ask this, Tai: did you get the same kind of message from Excal last night as on N1?  IIRC you said you were just "confused" N1 and unsure what that implied, but now you seem more certain you were diverted.  Basically I just want to confirm that these were the "same" effects.

Rat case: Out of time to give this the consideration it deserves.  Just posting to mostly note that I'd slide Rat as a lesser case than Tai at the moment, if anything.  Kilga's attack on Rat for sliding onto the Alice train...  well, goes for Tai to an extent too, but since I was ringleading that train, I can't exactly fault genuine townies for being convinced of Alice's scumminess, LaL is a good idea, etc.

Everyone else: Well, bravo to Kilga / Zenny / MC if you're scum, I've got a towny read on all of you.

Conclusion: {Taishyr, Roukanken} is definitely my bet for the scumteam at the moment.  Rat is third place.  Everyone else is a distant 4th.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 02, 2010, 08:39:41 PM
Look at me, I can post from work too!

Just as a precautionary measure, I would like to request that no further LYLO speculation happen until Roukan has posted. May turn out to be something, may turn out to be nothing, we'll see, but since he's high on my list I don't want too many people speculating things because I don't want to hand him any...outs, we'll say.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Roukanken on June 02, 2010, 09:12:30 PM
Apologies that this post isn't 5 miles long with detailed, thorough analysis of every single post ever made. I'll say that I've been having a bleh time IRL as well as seeing yesterday's shitfest and leave it at that.

Starting off with the roleclaim since it's Lylo and there's a case on me. Seifer, SeeD's resident asshole. Normally vanilla, but when I get powered up I can scare away people who try to NK me by slaying them with the greatest insult of all time. Yes, it's Chicken-Wuss. (In short, when I get powered up I'm a BP the next night.)

Anyway. A long, long, N2 wait was enough for me to look over my cases and decide that yes, I was tunneling as usual. My case on Zenny was pretty much all HURR DURR DAY 1, and MC was making newb mistakes. Not completely without merit, but definitely not worth following as avidly as I was. So that leaves Snow, Tai, Kilga and Rat.

Kilga, I see no reason to suspect at all. Solid play all game, nothing really standing out against him anywhere. Rat's line of reasoning, I'm also willing to buy - nothing that he's said I particular object to. Tai...I can't believe he would be able to pull such an insane bluff N0 unless he had MASSIVE amounts of impossible role information, so I'm willing to buy into him.

That leaves Snow, and ho-hoh boy this one is fun.
Let's just take his most recent post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109573.html#msg109573) for now, half because it's an excellent example and half because I've sort of lost the drive to go all the way with this. Some useless padding in terms of responding to the flavour, two paragraphs of Lylo theory which don't do anything, a blatant 'OH WOW ALICE WAS TOWN' that could easily be scum boasting. I've already said plenty about him earlier, so I'm hoping that this doesn't cause any undue heart attacks in saying that I think Snow's play so far sucks. His vote on Laggy contained an 'oh wait, maybe we SHOULD lynch Alice sometime' get-out-of-jail-free card which is doubly important now that Alice has flipped Town, and besides that there's a lot of words words words in his posts.

Only problem is that Snow obviously isn't the only scum. MC and Makkotah then would still be my suspects for his buddy (buddies?), given that I can eliminate Tai and Kilga/Rat have given me nothing to worry about. Assuming otherwise would probably be buying into the ACCUSE TOUHOU HE'S A GOOD TOWNIE logic which I still don't get. That's a bridge to cross when we come to it, though, and for now I'm more than willing to ##FoS: Snowfire.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 02, 2010, 11:46:36 PM
Oooh let's trade insults then.  If you think my play sucks, then your play...  Actually on second thought let's not having already had one really stupid spat between Xanth and Taishyr.  I will however respond to the substance.

Some useless padding in terms of responding to the flavour, two paragraphs of Lylo theory which don't do anything ...(snip) ....  His vote on Laggy contained an 'oh wait, maybe we SHOULD lynch Alice sometime' get-out-of-jail-free card which is doubly important now that Alice has flipped Town, and besides that there's a lot of words words words in his posts.

Still dredging up old cases I see.  I actually went to notable effort to keep my posts trimmer and to the point on Day 2.  Also absolutely anyone on these boards can tell you I'm a fan of flavor and will respond and make comments on it no matter what so um.  Right.  As for my Laggy vote, whaaaat?  Are you saying that I should have tunneled Laggy and said nothing about other cases and had it be a big surprise when I switched to Alice?  Give me a break.  (Yes, I was obviously wrong about Alice, which pisses me off, but I stand by that case being defensible and plausible.)

More seriously, since it seems Rou claimed, I repeat my previous question do we want to do a mass roleclaim?  I'm not actually entirely sure if this is wise, that kind of backfired for town in Meme Mafia and there could theoretically be 3 more game days of play, but it is LYLO.  I guess I'll wait for Kilga's LYLO thoughts first.

Also, Excal, only 3 days of deadline for LYLO?  Would it be possible to consider extending that if need be, or is that a hard deadline?  (Depends on how the day will go, but I don't want to be forced into something hasty come deadline if we're not getting anywhere.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 03, 2010, 12:10:38 AM
Just got home, haven't had time to play more than the logic game for the moment, though I raise an eyebrow at Roukan's claim that he has no issues with Rat.

1) I endorse a mass roleclaim given the circumstances. However, I want Zenny to claim last. Ideally I also want Rat and Tai to go first in some order (with Snow thrown in if people want) but if I get shouted down on that, so be it. Everyone's already seen what I do, and given the revelation that what happened to me on Night 0 was due to an outside force I'm going to go ahead and assume it's all I can do.

2) Where's the slowkill? We've all posted and no one has claimed it (and given I'm bringing this up now I'd be happy to vote anyone that goes "oh whoops it was me sorry" unless they had a DAMN good reason for delaying the reveal). I guess it's possible that whoever got hit with it wouldn't know, since that's more or less the nature of Poison, but the DL precedent for slowkills is that the target knows, so uh. There's also the matter of whether or not it's on a Townie, because a Town on Town vote wouldn't mathematically spell doom if the Townie that got lynched was the slowkilled one (unless there are multiple kills available to non-townies). I might have been able to see three scum remaining with the kill sitting on one of them but I don't know why they wouldn't have just claimed being the target since it would have almost guaranteed them a pass for the day.

3) Roukan's claim is...throwing me for a loop, actually. The special effect I received Night 0 was bulletproof, and it didn't come into effect until Night 1. The difference is that I didn't know about this until it happened, while he apparently did. This raises all sorts of questions, like why two Townies would have the same PowerUp effect but one also gets Insomnia while the other gets nothing else, or why he was told he'd get BP while I didn't find out until it happened, or whether or not he's scum that guessed what happened to me based on how I danced around the issue. Really don't know what to make of this.

Cut by Snow: Mass Roleclaim messed up Meme Mafia because you guys did it when you didn't need to. LYLO is an all-cards-on-the-table situation, so yes, I say go ahead with it.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 03, 2010, 12:14:52 AM
Though now that I think about it I can see three scum remaining with one being slowkilled shutting up about it given the risk of getting a buddy lynched instead because of the claim (whereas the slowkilled scum getting lynched would be less than ideal but ultimately not the worst thing that could happen to them).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 03, 2010, 01:23:24 AM
It's also possible that somebody used a roleblocker to stop the poison, or Yoshi didn't have access to his kill because of de/leveling silliness, or any number of things.  Unless somebody claims to be hit with the slowkill, though, I don't think reasoning this out is too useful.

I've only skimmed so far so I won't go too into detail, but Rou still looks worst to me still, and his Day 3 post does little to affect my opinion.  Rat looked significantly better to me after that re-read Tai made me do, and the Alice flip makes Tai look significantly worse.  I'm not sure of the usefulness of a mass roleclaim right now (scum were given covers, and after only 3 night phases sniffing out the fakes might be impossible.), but onn the other hand, given that it is LYLO it's not as... harmful, I suppose, as it would be at another time.

Question:  Kilga, why do you want me to claim last?

Mm.  More thorough scumhunting to come later when I've done some more reading.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 03, 2010, 02:05:03 AM
To keep scum on their toes claimwise. Role madness or not, I don't want to gift them a claim of whatever they want, and I feel having you go last maximizes our chances of doing just that.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 03, 2010, 04:03:30 AM
It's a fair enough point, but I'm a little clueless as to how me going last would maximize those chances.  That might just be me being 7 beers in though.

Just a heads up, analysis probably won't be coming tonight.  Blah blah blah using alcohol to deal with problems aside, it is my friend's 21st birthday tonight so yeah.  If I'm up early enough tomorrow I'll try and get some thoughts out before work, and if not, I'll certainly get them out there on my lunch break/immediately after work (since more than 1 day is far, far too long to get that done when we're in hard deadline LYLO), but they're almost certainly not coming out in any coherent form tonight.  Sorry town.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 03, 2010, 04:07:13 AM
Actually, thinking on it, don't answer me about why that would maximize those chances, at least not until the mass roleclaim is over with.  That would be stupid. 
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 03, 2010, 04:09:55 AM
It's nothing I haven't already said in the thread; I think you're the towniest of the remaining players.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Carthrat on June 03, 2010, 02:38:07 PM
Didn't mention Tai for no particularly good reason save the way I think and write stuff. I am somewhat leery of him though, as I said before I didn't like the way the Xanth/Tai discussion developed; granted I felt Xanth was more deserving of a lynch, not sure how Tai concluded Xanth was townie (and managed to wait until after the guy imploded to say so, when really it was kinda late.)

Rolestuffs: I'm a doctor, prot'd Rou N1 and Snow N2, rationale on the first being 'I think he's kinda townie-looking' and the second being 'he got powered up, so if he's town he's a high-probability target for scum'. Somehow I got pre-emptively roleblocked last night and can't take any actions tonight, so my ability to protect anyone is nil. Don't see much harm in claiming this part presently. Didn't bother proting anyone n0, if anyone cares. Didn't see the point and kinda wanted to avoid any reactive roles. I'm not really seeing much helpful out of claims so far, and with the weirdness of the setup just about anything is believable, so.

I must admit I'm somewhat surprised, it's been weird to see people thinking I look good this game and it's made me a bit nervous, since I don't think I've done so well. I haven't really looked through the thread yet, but I've thought about things to myself and I'm really considering Snow at the moment on account of his powerup claim followed by survival (ohnoezNKspec). It actually seems kinda odd; why would did you actually go out and claim that? What purpose could it serve but to draw a target on your own head?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 03, 2010, 07:29:41 PM
Was hoping to wait for Tai to fullclaim, but we've only got 72 hours, and I'm next on Kilga's suspicion-o-meter anyway, so here goes.  (Random note: The idea of reverse-claiming in order of perceived towniness is pretty cool, now that I think about it.  We should really do that by default in all games.)

It actually seems kinda odd; why would did you actually go out and claim that? What purpose could it serve but to draw a target on your own head?

Rat: I would have been thrilled had I been the NK target N2, or so I thought on early Day 2. 

* First, Xanth already claimed a power-up unsolicited on early Day 2.  Seemed a reasonably towny idea, mark out who got powered up when so that scum can't backtrack later and claim "oh yeah I got powered up and found out who the scumteam was."  If I'd drawn cop powers off the power-up I probably would have shut up, but instead...
* ... Roleclaim: Laguna Loire, adventurer, journalist, film star, president, the usual.  Sometimes spirits of my son and his friends power me up from the future and give me amazing abilities, like awesome battle music and machine guns everywhere.  I'm vanilla normally but when Metroid powered me up, I got a Limit and became a Vigilante for Night 2.  Whoever I shot would *flip* so there would be no need to live to Day 3 and declare my results.  To some extent I was hoping I'd draw the NK and distract scum from any other investigative roles, so that's why I didn't really feel bad about claiming the power-up.  I was somewhat worried that this would "out" MC or Zenny as likely sources of the power-up (which unfortunately happened) but it seemed they didn't draw the NK anyway.

The perceptive will note that there is only one body on the floor today.  Yes, I declined to use my vig power last night.  I would have shot Roukanken had I shot anybody, but here was my logic: I figured that town had the choice between two lynches (7 players D3 -> 5 players D4) vs. my shot + a LYLO lynch (6 players D3).  I wanted to give town more night actions to work with and hope something shook loose, and also perhaps let Roukanken rolelcaim if I was wrong about him.  I also thought that a non-LYLO lynch (today) might force scum into some untenable roleclaims which could be outed on Day 4, which wouldn't be the case with vig + LYLO lynch Day 3.  Anyway, CRAP, NOT AS PLANNED.  If I'd known today would be LYLO I'd definitely have shot Roukanken and then we'd probably still have a lynch to work with, assuming 2 scum....  although maybe not, if it's "2 scum + ally" or something.  So yeah, I hope my reasons are clear, but I guess this was the wrong decision?  It really depends on what the hell is going on here with the roles and why exactly today is LYLO.  (Also from a flavor perspective I'd definitely be happy with shooting up Seifer.)

Anyway, this is where I slightly whine about Xanth getting himself modkilled which moved LYLO closer which meant I felt I couldn't safely shoot.  Oh, well.

I was not powered up last night, so there will be no vigging tonight for me.

I have some more potential scumteam / role speculation thoughts but will hold off 'till fullclaim has occurred before sharing them.  I would ask that people get to said sharing quickly, though; note that we are still on a deadline.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Excal on June 03, 2010, 07:40:20 PM
The man speaks truth!

36.4 hours remain in LYLO
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Taishyr on June 03, 2010, 08:01:46 PM
... LYLO deadline. Right. Well, bear with me a minute, I have a few questions for Rou first before I do the entirety of my claim.

Okay, first: Roukanken, what tasty did I give you N0? Just to make sure I am the person that gave you that tasty.

Secondly, why would it have been a massive scum gambit for me to give you what I gave you N0 (presuming that tasty is the same as I gave you, just presume it is for now, I want to hear the logic).

Doing a quick dig to check for something. Posting again soonish, I hope, will provide full roleclaim as soon as I get the confirmation from Roukanken.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Taishyr on June 03, 2010, 08:29:53 PM
Actually, after mulling this out, I think I can get my one other question out of the way without any major issues or conflicting with my Rou questions.

Taishyr case: I've never been able to quite get a handle on Taishyr, but Noyn's flip does make him look bad to me at least.  He's on the record as having powered-up Quiet Rainkanken N0 and Noyn N1 (maybe?  Tai said he was confused then, though)...  and Rou just happens to be my number 1 suspect.  Then there was the epic Xanth / Tai clash which...  blargh.  That kind of bullheaded rush on one towny IS kind of odd for scum to pull, but hardly unheard of, and more generally I think Kilga has a point that Tai has helped make cases about minituia and pixelbitching over ultimately minor points. 

This is all good logic and I can't really blame you for any of it, in theory! ...but.

SnowFire, please clearly state -how- you have learned what my power does. For reference, here's my post of my partial roleclaim. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109101.html#msg109101)

And while I'm at it, since I think the problem here is fairly self evident: Massive FoS: SnowFire. Unless you have a damn good explanation of this one... well, knowing what my ability does before me and before Rou's actually said anything about N0 effects is... welp!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Roukanken on June 03, 2010, 10:29:35 PM
Besides the point that Tai just made about Snow knowing things before he's meant to know them, I'll comment that two characters from the same game is sort of unheard of. Seifer/Laguna when we've had a pretty varied group of characters up until now? :/

Tai: I received a strawberry Night 0.

And it's a gambit because the effect I received from it was positive and scum!Tai wouldn't want to give out bonuses to random Townies in case he powered up a dangerous role.

I want to say more but SWEET JESUS delicious side effects from these pills I can't hear myself type over this headache. >_<
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 03, 2010, 10:39:35 PM
I'm watching this unfold and not liking where it's going. Will wait for Snow to answer, though I feel I could answer for him and that makes me a tiny bit more leery for both Tai and Roukan for pushing this.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 03, 2010, 10:39:53 PM
*tiny bit more leery of
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Taishyr on June 03, 2010, 10:50:39 PM
Kilga: ... okay so I'm magically supposed to know how he knows what my ability is, despite the fact that he does not seem to have gotten any of my strawberries? (As they are strawberries, yes)

And for the record, I disagree overly much that it's a gambit - since my giving of power is obvious, I could be just trying to curry favor with the move if I were scum. I'm not, but whatever.

For the record, "because it was explained that they weren't negative" doesn't help at all - we have way too many useless roles at base power (AMNESIAC COP, TOWN GODLIKE VANILLA) that a presumption that they're positive - and specifically, -that they boost power level- seems incredibly off.

And since this leads into a roleclaim, I'm Kogasa, town dog (S3), which makes me leery also on the FF8 speculation that both can't be true (it's a possiblity but I don't know for sure). I ran around giving strawberries from Connie's neck pouch to people. The other event that happened tonight was that I was powered up tonight; instead of one strawberry I give two, and I was explicitly told today that this would be a double power booster.

Which also means that whatever keeps targeting me at night isn't a power down effect, or else I'd think the two cancel out? Whatever, I don't know what's going on in this game anymore, I didn't sign up for role madness.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Taishyr on June 03, 2010, 11:06:43 PM
And yeah, I got told today how my ability worked explicitly, the one day where it'd both be worthless (woo LYLO power booster~) and frustrating (because knowing how my ability worked earlier would have enabled a bit more enlightened actions. I wouldn't have tried to cure Noyn's votelessness, for one, if I knew I was just a 'ffing powerbooster. but whatever.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 03, 2010, 11:19:15 PM
Lol powerup shenanigans.

Right, reread the thread and am up to date on all the shenanigans.

I find myself wanting to lynch Rat. (lol bard you're so funny)
(yes that is a joke I demand to be allowed to make one joke this game!)

---
As far as srs bsns content goes I'm not really happy with Zenthor and will compile a case on him. Just popping in to mention I'm still there, hi.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 04, 2010, 01:03:11 AM
....

Taishyr.

Taishyr.

You asked Roukanken if he got a goodie on night 0 in thread on Day 2.  After Xanth / Myself / MC had already made power-up claims public and it seemed like everyone was doing so.  Furthermore the opening post of the game specifically mentions the "power up / power down" mechanic.  I assumed you were being coy about "not knowing" if you had a power-up ability when I read that post on Day 2 as an attempt to keep scum in the dark, if you must ask, since it being a power-up ability seems, well, obvious.  If you must ask for game theory, then most abilities are generally silent (doctor, tracker, etc.); the only abilities that get a notification are NKs and...

Quote from: Excal
There are several powers in play which can raise or lower the power level of other people.  These changes rarely last more than one night.  You will be told if you are so effected, and it will take effect on the next night.

So if Roukanken was informed he got something good.  Um.  I wouldn't even call it a guess, more like putting 2 and 2 together unless Excal was being crazy with the meta.  Also, did you really not know what your ability did?  I find that rather hard to believe you didn't think you might have the mechanic described in the opening post of the game.

If you want to play semantics, I will amend my comment.  "Taishyr is on record as having powered-up Quiet Rainkanken N0 and Noyn N1 (maybe?  Tai said he was confused then, though) with his ability, but said ability, while apparently helping people, could theoretically not be a 'power-up' in the sense Excal described in the first post, but rather some unrelated type of power-up that people are informed about for some reason; I however believe that Taishyr's treat is in fact an Excal-power-up like I received and not an unrelated-power-up."

Of course, now that Roukanken has claimed he becomes BP, it seems this rather obvious assumption is almost certainly correct if both Tai & Rou are telling the truth - I didn't know I would become a Vig until I got powered-up, Roukanken knows he becomes BP, therefore Roukanken was powered up at some point in the game.  (Unless Excal told him before what his role did upon power-up which I hugely doubt since Excal said every role has hidden information.)

However, I will grant one thing.  I'm not 100% sure you have a power-up ability, no.  If the scumteam was Roukanken / Noyn / Taishyr then you have targeted Scum / Scum / ????  so this could all be a pack of lies.  I don't think that, though.  I bet you really are a scum power-upper, and have just been powering up your friends.  Last night it was done quietly, or else you were stuck on the kill since Noyn is dead.

I am now 98% convinced that we have a Taishyr / Roukanken scumteam afoot.

Also Roukanken.  Since you want to play the FF8 meta card.  Taishyr just claimed a Suiko 3 character when Ciato was a Suiko 3 character.  Just sayin'.

And actually, Taishyr has done even better than that.

Quote from: Taitoro
I'm Kogasa, town dog (S3)

BEEEP!  Kogasa is not a character in Suikoden 3 unless both Google and my memory have totally failed me.  Kogasa is a Touhou character.  Did you seriously just scumclaim?  Or did you misspell Koroku?

I am seriously tempted to vote Tai right now but will hold off.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Taishyr on June 04, 2010, 01:11:51 AM
...yeah, Koroku. Touhou on the brain, as incredibly stupid as that makes me fucking well look. What the fuck ever, my play's been shitty, might as well top it off by typing out a completely wrong name, holy fucking shit. -_- Single worst game I've ever played, I think, this is?

Regarding your logic... no, I did not know what my ability did, why else would I say that? I only learned explicitly what I could bloody well do today. And I asked Noyn -about his votelessness- first. I only asked Rou about the fruit when I was under pressure, mainly because damnit, I really don't want to see town lynch me but at this point with my abysmal play it's inevitable. Holy christ I can't believe I did that still.

I don't really have anything else to say, other than I really don't believe how you jumped to me being a power booster but apparently it was obvious to everyone but me or something? Shit. I don't care. Koroku, thanks for catching that, yeah have fun lynching me if you really want, gg scum since this is LYLO and you're lynching town dog but I don't expect you to believe me at this point, honestly, due to simply how badly I've cold cocked this. I'm pretty much done, it's obvious I should have just acted like Alice the entire fucking game for how much everything I've tried to say has been turned against me. Whatever.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Taishyr on June 04, 2010, 01:14:18 AM
and yeah, I don't quite care enough about Suikodogs to remember their fucking names

I remembered Ko and just went from there

of course, my role implies I'm Dune anyway (Hi, I'm a guy who has a girl's belongings and goes around giving out strawberries that aren't any use~~~~~ wait they're useful lol too late to find that out) so whatever
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 04, 2010, 02:19:59 AM
Siiiiiiiiiiiiiigh. 

Don't really know how to respond to that.

I do want to be clear that Taishyr's botched nameclaim isn't the main reason I'm suspicious of him.  Sloppiness is a bad sign and scum presumably have 2 names to keep track of so I do hold it as a point against him, but mistakes happen; everyone has made some dumb mistakes this game, I'm not in favor of a lynch solely on that.  It's more the attempted case on me which felt like an artificial "gotcha!" rush to get some townie to panic and make an early vote that backfired.

That said, if Tai does follow through on ragequitting, I don't think we have much choice but to lynch him, Appeal to Emotion is bad, especially as a reason to shut up and not say anything more.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 04, 2010, 02:38:52 AM
Mafiaclusterfuck.

I'm going to try to keep this brief, because I lost a lot of time to this game Day 2 and I don't want to loose too much more to it.  I'm still pretty convinced Roukanken's scum.  Yadda yadda my day 2 case still applies, but his Day 3 posts haven't been too great either (although frankly at this juncture I totally feel the whole going "meh" at this game).  His brand new case against Snow reads like little more than an OMGUS, and the second post about 2 characters from the same game being unprecedented is... true or not, not useful.
So, yeah.  Pretty sure Rou's scum.  

Now, who's his buddy/ies?  MC's read pretty townie and, though Alice flipped Town, her catch on Alice earns her some massive townie cred in my book.  Kilga's contributions have been really good (though something still just strikes me as off about asking for a full roleclaim, but MEH MOAR PLAYSTYLE BICKERING), and frankly if Kilga flips scum, at this junction I'll just say well done and leave it at that.

I'm willing to take a bet and say Carth isn't scum.  Most of his arguments have been original and now that that whole OMGUS moment has passed, the only thing I can really say against the guy is that his post count's low.  But... quality over quantity is something I'm appreciative of.  Even if he is Rou's scummate, I am certainly not willing to lynch him over Rou today.

So, we have {Rou, Snow} and {Rou, Taishyr}.  I haven't done thorough re-reads of either, that will come later tonight (given how close to deadline we are now, this is a promise I will keep. >_>)

Tai's list of people he's given tasties to (myself aside, but we can't really trust that claim since I was notified of exactly nothing last night) links him pretty badly to scum, and the way he's flailed about at the end here has colored my opinion of him in exactly the same way Rou's flailing has.  The whole spat with Xanth could easily have been Tai pulling an Otter.  

My problem with the {Rou, Tai} scumpair is that it seems... too obvious.  It's LYLO, sure, but why would scum not try harder to distance themselves from their scummates?  Which is precisely what Snow and Rou seem to be doing in their little spat on the previous page.  Additionally, Rou pointing out that Tai targetting him would be a massive scum gambit feels to me like he's trying to make the connection between Tai and Rou stronger, so even if we lynch scumRou, scum could still win by lynching the guy with the most obvious connection to him.  

That said, that's really the only thing making me hesitate to declare Tai as the second scum.  

This may change based on my Tai/Snow re-reads, but currently I'm going to say Rou>>>Tai>Snowfire>>>Rat>>>>>>irrelevant.

Snow ninja!

Well, actually, Snow pushing the Tai lynch strikes me as off, too.  "If he's raegquitting we must lynch!" Really?  Except that if he's raegquitting scum it benefits town, and if he's raegquitting town then lynching him means we lose.

---

Oh, almost forgot.  So has everyone roleclaimed?  Looks like it, may have missed someone (I don't think Bard's fullclaimed yet but we already know MC powered up Snow N1).  I will roleclaim soon, but I want to check with the mod about something first. 

So much for keeping this brief.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Excal on June 04, 2010, 02:41:27 AM
I would like to make a generic reminder that this is just a game.  There is no cost to losing, and anyone bragging too much in the winning (or the I told you soing) will get a hearty post game smack.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 04, 2010, 03:19:50 AM
Tai: Koroko, PowerUPPPP
Rou: Seifer, Vanilla / Bulletproof
Rat:  Doctor, protected Rou and Snow
Snow: Laguna Vigilante, claims to have targetted nobody
MCBardpants: Some sort of powerup thing, ????
Kilga: Insomniac, ???????

Okay.  So, Bard and Kilga haven't fullclaimed yet and I'll hold off until they do so per Kilga's request (though both seem really townie to me).  

Some thoughts...

Nobody has claimed to have received Tai's strawberry today, so regardless of Tai's alignment it's pretty certain that scum is powered up tonight.  

Nobody has claimed to have been powered down, either, and I certainly was D2 so I know the role exists.  I'm going to take a guess and say that this means this was Noyn's power.  I really, really, really hope this was Noyn's power, anyway.  

There's nobody who has claimed to be a bus driver or roleblocker, so if those roles do exist they're scum aligned.  Since Yoshi got axed to the face last night, this means that both Tai's claim of being bussed and Rat's claim of being preemptively roleblocked cannot be true barring some bastard moding, which I'll grant is entirely possible.  

Xanth claimed to be a 1 shot doc, which makes Rat's claim look a little worse, and MC being a power upper who knew about it makes Tai's claim of being a power upper who didn't know about it also look worse.  

Mm.  This leads me to think that one of Rat and Tai are scum.  [Rou, Tai] is looking more likely to me, but... we'll see.  Must re-read Tai and Snow.  
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 04, 2010, 04:02:04 AM
Zenny: To be clear I'm still on board for a Rou lynch.  Basically agree with your list except I know I'm town so therefore the scumteam is probably Tai-Rou with a tiny dose of Rat.  (My main paranoia here is why exactly it's LYLO, if it's something weird and it's 2 scum + 1 evil ITP I'm less sure how this plays and who's who.)

You are correct that I have switched to being in favor of lynching Tai first at the moment, though, especially if he disappears.  This is mostly because Rou's mistakes are...  well.  He's played badly by my judgment all game, but badly for scum too.  As in his first post today wasn't very impressive even if he was scum.  After the Alice mislynch which included "bad play" grounds...  well, it's possible this could be the same thing here.  Roukanken has said outright that he's been distracted IRL and not really in the mood for Mafia, I believe.

If Rou has played badly, then Tai switched over to outright scummy / suspicious with his earlier posts today.  The role meta is just way too convenient here.  Ignoring Rou for a moment, N1 Tai hits Noyn, N2 Tai hits ???, Tai now says himself his D2 claim was an attempt to save himself, but he left in enough doubt so that we could never hold him to anything if a towny had claimed tracker / watcher and his N1 / N2 ability had gone somewhere else?  And Tai *did not know and did not guess what his role did* if he is to be believed, which strains credulity?  Bluntly, I think Tai is smarter than this and that Excal is not a complete bastard mod.  I think Tai thought of a cute way to "gotcha" someone off the fact that his posts were a little vague.  Now why would a townie want to do that?   That case is just....  amazingly scummy to me.  Easily scummy enough to propel Tai to the top of the list.

And lynch ragequitters (who aren't lynched by mod)?  Yes.  Same goes for people who extreme-lurk during LYLO: both aren't around and thus don't have to say anything.  Town can't ever set a precedent that this is okay, or else scum will always do it, disappear, and win with it.  I'm serious.  If you're wondering if I made up this meta conveniently, ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,3198.msg58081.html#msg58081 ) is a post by confirmed-townie-me in Watchmen Mafia advocating the same thing, though in that case Dan Dreiberg was an extreme lurker.  (although don't turn the page, that game has a sad ending that is my fault.  sorry Carth.)

Jammin' ninja'd!

Nobody has claimed to have been powered down, either, and I certainly was D2 so I know the role exists.

Sounds like it might have been Carthrat?  He said he was pre-emptively roleblocked for tomorrow on his doc ability.  That sounds like a level-down to me, though I'll let Rat confirm / deny this since I've already been attacked for "knowing too much."  To be clear, this is just an educated guess based on the fact that most power-changers kick in the next night and only last one night.

I have a theory here as well about the level-down effects, though I'm not sure how relevant it is if true.  Will wait for fullclaim to post it regardless.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 04, 2010, 04:02:36 AM
Snowfire brings up exactly why I didn't like that push. I had more or less assumed Tai gave out powerups myself, based on his partial claim and the mechanics of the game.

Pretty much set to vote Tai after how these last few posts have gone down, barring something gamebreaking in terms of roleclaims. Not sure about his partner, though.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 04, 2010, 04:28:51 AM
Okay, Bard hasn't claimed but I saw that Kilga claimed to be BP when powered up, and well whatever LEEEROOOOOY JENKINS.

I am Odin, All Father of Norse Mythology turned megalomaniac by fanfic game turned failjanitor by fanfic site.  Normally vanilla, when I am powered down I become the BELOVED All Father.  I was kind of shitting bricks about even being targetted Day 2 because if pressed for a roleclaim it would have been just as bad for Town as if I had gotten lynched.  In any case, I'm not powered down now, and if the power-downer still exists and is scum well it doesn't matter because tomorrow will still be LYLO if we make it past today anyway.

(Note that because of how Day 2 went I was tempted to ask Excal to modkill me and make this game end in the worstBEST WAY EVER.  However, I did not.)

So, that's all the roles out, basically.  

Taishyr... ugh, this re-read makes me want to vote him out of spite.  It doesn't feel like he was trying to badger Xanth out of the game, but it certainly does look like he was belaboring a point hard in an attempt to get Xanth to waste his time responding, which... worked out really well.  I also really don't like how he tunnelled things down to Alice,Rat at the end but...

Hm.  And his day 3 posts... tch.  Snow brings up a very good point, and honestly on a re-read I don't have much to pin on Snow at all but that might just be me getting lazy about this.  

I think there's a good chance our scumteam is Rou/Tai.  I'll wait for Bard to get his thoughts in before I vote, though, and maybe I'll dump even more time into this and do some Snow/Kilga analysis (really don't like the push for "well I'm done let's vote" but I agree with the argument behind it, so... ugh.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 04, 2010, 04:32:44 AM
For the record, it was pretty clear that I had gotten powered down.  Not sure Carth would call it a preemptive roleblock but maybe the wording was different.  Mine was all "something bad happened to you and you're spiteful so if you go down you're taking everyone with you kthxbai"
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 04, 2010, 05:06:28 AM
If you'd like me to expand on why I plan to vote Tai then I can, but I think I've already gone over most of it during the night, and Snow has already covered today for me and I didn't feel the need to repeat him on the AtE thing at least.

I'm in no particular hurry beyond the soft deadline, but honestly, I highly doubt something is going to come out that will make me change my mind at this point.

Also, just for the record, I'm Jin Shirato from Persona 3. While nameclaiming I'd also like to add that Excal explicitly stated scum would be given safe fakeclaims, so Roukan trying to rouse paranoia over characters being from the same game does not sit well with me at all (as obvious-to-the-point-of-unlikely a Tai/Rou team is after their attempted dash to Snowfire over nothing meaningful today). Not that I couldn't have said this during the night, but you seem somewhat anxious about people potentially jumping the gun, so.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 04, 2010, 05:30:52 AM
Eh, there's some precedent for it.  Noyn's cover was apparently Janice from CC, and Alice was Radius from the same game.  Not that I have any respect for meta-ing off of that instead of off the roles.

I... think I agree that there's very little that would make me vote for someone other than Rou/Tai today, unless Bard has some sparkling new insight that pushes Snow over Tai or makes it really really obvious that Bard is scum.  But you know, last time I saw that people were all "discussion done let's vote" it was scum doing it so I'd really rather let everyone have their say.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 04, 2010, 07:05:23 AM
Actually, there's one other loose end I'd like to try to tie up. I've been lying in bed and unable to fall asleep and it's been bugging me.

Where the hell did my Night 0 BP charge come from?

- Glen claimed a weak RB power that wasn't used.
- Xanth claimed chargeable vanilla.
- Alice claimed Amnesiac Cop, "confirmed" by Bard to not be the source of anything else.
- Roukan claimed chargeable vanilla.
- Rat claimed to have not targeted anyone Night 0.
- Snow claimed chargeable vanilla.
- Tai claimed power booster but also claimed to target Roukan Night 0.
- Zenny claimed chargeable (well, dechargeable) vanilla.

This leaves four possible sources.

- Bard: MC has claimed a charging power, confirmed by Snow. Bard, who did MC target Night 0?
- Ciato: Possible, but a non-BP ITP role that charges other players? Uh.
- Noyn: Also possible, but if Tai is scum I very much doubt Noyn also had a charging role, because giving scum two charging roles out of three scums is...not something I'm prepared to believe. (Unless there are four of them? Maybe...) (This also assumes Tai has a charging role, which it's possible he's being a lying scum about, but he and Roukan would have been playing a high-risk low-reward gambit on Day 2 if that really was a bunch of lies.)
- Yoshi: Also possible, but with a name like "Poisoner", I kinda doubt it. I have some speculations on what Yoshi's role might have actually been but they're just speculations and I don't see a need to voice them at the risk of giving scum extra ideas if I'm right.

If it wasn't Bard I'm stumped, because I would have a very hard time believing any of the other options.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 04, 2010, 12:47:25 PM
Nothing overnight? Sad face.

Gonna be out most of today, going hiking with my dad.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Carthrat on June 04, 2010, 01:36:15 PM
Well, I was given some RPG-related gobbledegook about lacking Res, and told that I don't feel well, so I can't use powers tonight. Powered down? Could be! I dunno.

I... honestly don't get Snow's rational for being thrilled to be killed, seems a bit silly when by killing someone at night he could claim vig the following and score some free cred owing to the sheer unlikelyhood of scum having double kill powers (Yes it's happened, I know, but it's also really rare, so.) I do understand why he might not use the vig, but man do I not like how he played the rolegame and when I'm thinking on these lines I'm usually right, so! I'd have bought "I wasn't thinking" over that, honestly, quick glance at his post seems he's doing it just because he sees other people claiming things? Don't like the 'going along with the crowd' mentality. Really quite suspicious there. Would be prepared to vote him on that owing to lack of sufficient other impetus.

Don't think he can be scumbuddies with Tai the way today has gone, don't really want to see Tai lynched as a result.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 04, 2010, 02:33:03 PM
On second thought I think I'll hold off on my piece of level-down speculation after seeing Kilga's post.  Like I noted before, it's probably irrelevant if true, and might *theoretically* come up if scum raise it.

Rat: Yes, I was "going along with the crowd" on the claim, but Xanth seemed like a fairly towny crowd and there's precedent for making public this kind of effect a la roleblocks.  "Thrilled" might be strong but I did know that I didn't need to live to Day 3 to "reveal" the investigation-by-bullets.  You are correct that I'd have earned townie points had I shot someone, but I was reading Kilga's night posts while deciding my Night 2 action and got the impression I likely wasn't in massive danger of a Day 3 mislynch, as Kilga had me #4 on his list.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Excal on June 04, 2010, 07:18:08 PM
12.7 hours remaining in LYLO
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 04, 2010, 09:32:26 PM
... Oh wow I spent too much time being... well, that's for the after-game I guess.

Right on Zenthor, I reviewed my case. During writing it up I realise I don't feel that strongly about it as initially thought, but still.

By the way, as everyone's assuming there be two scum, do we propose a double-voter exists? Last I checked we needed 4 votes to lynch someone. If a scum double-voter exists I believe we should've vote/unvoted to have a show of hands but with only few hours remaining I sadly do not think we will have the opportunity to test that theorem, never bother the many flaws with such a plan.

On to Makkotah casing.

----

... Of course his jokevote is peculiar given, heh. "Ciato, doing the Otter-badger?". You'll forgive me if I find that phrasing slightly... ironic given the circumstances, and wonder how he "knew" about Badgers. His flailing regarding "quick-lynching" of Rat is a bit bizarre, although I am not sure if it is downright scummy.

This post changes that however (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108525.html#msg108525), when he tries to justify himself. Starting an early train is a completely valid Mafia strategy to get Day1 out of jokevote phase and any and all jerking towards OMG TRAIN IS BAD makes me go :/ and unhappy. It is also hilarious to propose scum would so quickly lynch that early in the Day given it'd validly and certainly cost them at least one head and then narrows down the play field to "all who voted Carthrat".

Although it would've been hilarious.

Due to circumstances (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108595.html#msg108595) I am also a bit wary of Makkotah reading something that wasn't specifically said, referring to 'seeing on IRC'... well, you know scum usually have an IRC channel, right? This opens gang way for the grand guignol on the Makkotah/Laggyveil scumteam and honestly it'd be kind of nice if this is the case since it means Cruise Control is go.

In his case against Carthrat there is hypocrisy (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108713.html#msg108713), regarding: pressure to get people to talk. Yeah, that's what three votes on Rat would do as well earlygame, mate. I don't like people taking arguments in the most convenient way at different moments.

His entire case hinges on "I disagree with him", rather than "what he says is wrong"... which no, not a strong case, even given Day 1 it pretty much sucks given the alternatives and how far into the day it was. No further attempts to actually push a lynch on Carthrat, ends the day with a relatively safe vote on no trains.

Getting this out there because I have already taken waaaaaaay too long posting this.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Roukanken on June 04, 2010, 10:56:07 PM
Gah, deadline's almost here. If this gets quickhammered I'm really really sorry.

##Vote: Snowfire
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Excal on June 04, 2010, 10:57:18 PM
Nine hours remain.

Roukanken has challenged Snowfire to a d-d-d-duel!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Roukanken on June 04, 2010, 10:59:22 PM
Wait, nine hours? That's more than I thought. ##Unvote, then, I'll be around for a little longer.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Excal on June 04, 2010, 11:00:38 PM
D-D-D-DUEL ACCEPTE...  wait...  unvote?!

Ah dangit.

Duel Rescinded.

Vote Count!

Snowfire (0): Roukanken
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 04, 2010, 11:05:45 PM
Back home, and...

...Roukanken you just made my heart stop.

Though on the bright side you sort of tested Bard's doublevote hypothesis.

##VOTE: Taishyr
##UNVOTE: Taishyr

This is not a very good test because if there is a scum doublevoter - which there may or may not be - it might be activated, a la Soviet Alex in Meme Mafia, but why not.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Excal on June 04, 2010, 11:08:08 PM
;_; to unvotes

Vote Count
Snowfire (0): Roukanken
Taishyr (0): Snowfire
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 04, 2010, 11:13:26 PM
Also Bard, did MC power up Kilga on Night 0?  Kilga asked that question earlier if you missed it.

Rou...  well.  I'll wait to see your next post.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Roukanken on June 04, 2010, 11:45:47 PM
OK, apologies for the early snap. I thought the deadline was earlier, and I haven't been able to devote the time to this game I normally would because RL is basically being a bitch to me. I'll say that I started on antidepressants on Tuesday and leave it at that.

Still think Snow is the scummiest guy here, really, but it's Lylo and all. I'm gonna get up as early as I can to be around if a hammer's needed.

Again, I'm really sorry for my lack of contribution. Especially Excal, considering this game's already had plenty of dropouts and ragequits. -_-
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 05, 2010, 12:27:16 AM
Also Bard, did MC power up Kilga on Night 0?  Kilga asked that question earlier if you missed it.

Rou...  well.  I'll wait to see your next post.

Yeah sorry been a bit busy so didn't pay close attention.

But yes, MC did in fact power up Kilga on N0.

As far as a fullclaim goes, as MC alluded to with Rat's PURE IDEALS, we are Vinsfeld, wielder of truth, justice and mysterious but PURE ideals.

At night we give an invigorating speech that raises the target's spirits to great heights, allowing them to throw away their logic and kick reason to the curb as their role becomes powered up massively. Naturally we cannot invigorate ourselves!

I have no idea why MC picked the targets she did and do not feel a need to disclose them insofar that MC has already disclosed her N1 target and I feel no immediate need to clarify who was targetted this night, barring revelations. The amount of power uppers in this game is a bit silly but I already suspected a greater amount than normally.

---

As far as Zenthor goes, really no fan of his further way of pursuing a case on Roukanken, and post-TaiXanenigans he's really not picking up any better. His cases just seem a little empty to me, and his zeal in trying to get people to follow his lead is lackluster. S'yeah. I'm not going to be around for deadline so I likely cannot leave my suspicions in the form of a vote, but

##VOTE: Makkotah
##UNVOTE: Makkotah


... should get my intentions across, no?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 12:44:40 AM
I...  er...  what.

Well, I will say that I believe Rou that he's not following the game closely.  Um.  Trying to figure out if I want to switch over from Tai back to Rou now.  Which unfortunately will mean psychoanalyzing Rou.  Crap.  I do not, do not, do not like so much of this game being "figure out what Xanth / Tai / Rou have in their heads and if they'd really pull this."  Seriously, if any one of Tai or Rou has been town this whole time....  ugh.

(snip)

And actually I just threw away all my thoughts on what Rou's action meant with each potential scumteam because I think I am overanalyzing here.  (okay I still have them if anyone wants them but I don't think it's useful in retrospect.)  To put it briefly, either Rou is scum who said "screw it, last stand time" but then backed off due to realizing town had more time to hang itself, or Rou is town who was skimming the thread, and hopped onto Tai's bandwagon because it was attacking somebody he already thought was scummy from D2, me.  But I think trying to think through motives and what was trying to be accomplished with the unvote is missing the point; Rou said he's not feeling great, and therefore reading diabolical secret plans from this is probably wrong, and it was just a derp (whether it be a scumderp or townderp).  I really do not like handing out free passes on these kind of moves, though, so ack.

Talk this out with me, anyone (but especially Kilga or Zenny).  Really not sure here, though still mildly leaning toward a Tai vote.

Incidentally, speaking of town hanging themselves.  Bard...  I suspect that path would be a "town hangs itself" one, that of voting Zenny.  I sure hope that neither you nor Zenny are scum, at least, though you did say you're not likely to vote it.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 05, 2010, 12:58:06 AM
##Vote: Taishyr
##Unvote: Taishyr


Just got back from the hike, too tired to think about anything more, but Rat's post really bugs me for some reason. Hopefully I'll have enough energy later tonight to properly articulate why.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 05, 2010, 01:05:09 AM
Also, what's up with this duel thing? HiMElander Mafia on MotK has me a little wary of that situation, even though Excal didn't play in that game.

(Also also thank you Bard for clarifying on my N0 powerup. Much Ado About Nothing, I guess. >_>)
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Excal on June 05, 2010, 01:08:52 AM
The Duel thing was a bit of flavour from me about how in LYLO the first vote like that almost always ends.  Just me amusing myself.

Vote Count!

Snowfire - Roukanken
Taishyr - Snowfire, Kilga
Zenthor - Bardiche Prime

No votes have actually stuck!

There are seven hours remaining!
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 01:46:43 AM
I get off work and this is a headache.

First off, lolme2kk

##Vote: Roukanken
##Unvote: Roukanken


Now, then.  Bard's case against me is mostly based on my day 1 freak out which I've answered for to the extent that I can.  I have no other excuse other than I overreacted.   All my other responses I'm sure you'll see coming and do nothing to really ease your suspicions.  I meant the IRC channel, the whole badger thing is a coincidence, my case on Carthrat was mostly OMGUS and gut.  

I'm inclined to believe that Rou earnestly thought the deadline was soon.  I was concerned that it was going to happen while I was at work until I checked in on my lunch break.  I'm also willing to grant RL issues as for why he hasn't been around.  I'm not willing to grant that any of this makes him less scummy to me.  Any alignment, town, scum, third party... I wouldn't blame any of them for being sick of this game, especially if RL issues have been popping up.  

Re-reading his posts, I did notice that he makes almost no commentary whatsoever on Rat until Day 3, where he says "there's nothing objectionable that he's said."  Now, I know earlier I said I'd take a bet on Rat not being scum, but... that worries me a little bit.  Also because I don't really see where he's going with the Snow case--he doesn't see why Snow would claim, and he doesn't like the "going along with the crowd mentality" even though Kilga pretty clearly asked everyone to role claim?  And, yes, while Snow doesn't earn townie points for the claim because there was only one NK last night, I'm a little curious as to how this sort of claim would help scum.  I'll also note that though he said he wanted to investigate Rou not once (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109556.html#msg109556) but twice (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg109256.html#msg109256), nothing's really materialized on that front.  I'll grant that this could owe to his writing style, but... I don't know.  I'm less willing to take the bet that Rat isn't scum now than I was before.

Ugh.  Hm.  Now, I have to ask... given how the end of day 3's played out, (Tai,Snow) seems unlikely, and though both (Rou,Snow) and (Rat,Snow) are still on the table (bussing in LYLO... maaaaaay work to make the next LYLO day confusing, I guess?) I find them less likely than (Rou,Rat) and (Rou,Tai).   But do I think that (Tai,Rat) is a plausible scumpair?  I... one, want to get this post out there, and two kind of want other people's thoughts on the matter, so I'll post now, but I have some MOAR READING to do.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: metroid composite on June 05, 2010, 01:51:09 AM
Because it may help town...

N0 was basically a crapshoot for who to target.  Targeted Kilga because I know he's a good player, so should put the powerup to good use.

N1 Snowfire had come across the towniest to me.

N2 I expexted Snowfire to die, so I chose someone else.  Bard doesn't want to reveal this target yet, so I guess I won't say more?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 02:06:21 AM
I will say that - and this is probably obvious - we do want to hammer whoever it is we lynch; if the scum do have 3 votes then if town only makes it up to 3 votes, then the scum can force a Nyarlahatbot off at the end - or even worse, if town makes it up to 3 votes but a scummember is on the wagon, they can switch off and make it 3-2.  Bardiche, are you still around now?  You said you won't be around at deadline, but curious to hear your thoughts about non-Zenny cases you suspect (if you're willing to elsewhere than Zenthor, at least - I guess we can go into the Zenny case more, but Zenny has been on many of the same cases I have and has made fairly logical arguments by my reckoning).  If Bardiche isn't around to finish the hammer, this is mildly worrying as myself / Kilga / Zenny are only 3 votes.  For obvious reasons I don't really trust Taishyr / Rou / Rat who all seem to want to lynch me, so hrmm.

Zenny!  Short version is, yes, I think I can buy Tai / Rat at this point - which is not to say it's my guess as to the scumteam, which is still Tai / Rou, but that it's probably about as plausible as Rou / Rat.    I just...  eh.  The case on Rou has been for sloppy play, which makes sense if he's sick of the game, but he still hasn't risen to "seemingly caught scum" like Tai has.  Rou's mention of IRL distraction also makes me nervous about a "bad play" case too.  As for Rat...  let's assume Rat is scum for a moment and Rou/Tai is wrong.  Hmm.  Actually, I think I need to re-read Rat as well, but off the cuff I'd call him more connected to Tai than to Rou?  He did say he'd vote SnowFire > Taishyr, but that's WIFOM to read too much into it.  Will give that a re-read.

Basically, I'm still leaning toward a Taishyr vote, scummy play > bad play.  And I hope that the scumteam IS Taishyr / Rou so that we can laugh over all this wrangling over who to lynch first afterward, but we'll see, I guess.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 05, 2010, 02:09:30 AM
GUYS, GUYS.

I HAD A REVELATION.

Carthrat has posted thrice today, without ever directing the conversation towards a preferred lynch target.

THIS IS OBVIOUS LURKERSCUM STRATEGY AND WE SHOULD LYNCH HIM FOR THIS. ACTIVE LURKING IF EVER I SAW IT.

LAL, AMIRITE?

But no seriously I just re-read the thread before going to bed (what a hobby, what a hobby) and it turns out Carthrat's been pretty passive today which is bad juju!

... HI Snowfire I am around what is the nature of your requests.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 02:16:10 AM
Hey Bard.  I don't want to rush things but worried about making sure town can complete its hammer.  Would you be willing to stay up, like, at least another 20-30 minutes and then voting for probably one of Tai / Rou / Rat with me / Kilga / Zenny?  Basically, I don't want it to be possible to find scum tie the lynch at 3-3 come deadline, or even mislynch me outright if Roukanken is in fact town outright who wants me dead.

Quote from: Rat
Don't think he can be scumbuddies with Tai the way today has gone, don't really want to see Tai lynched as a result.

Well, it's LYLO.  Assuming Scum!Rat, all he needs is to get one mislynch.  This statement implies that either I should be lynched or someone else (Rou?) should be lynched, so yeah, thinking Tai - Rat makes a fair amount of sense?  If Taishyr is put on the docket, Rat can vote me.  If Rou or someone else is voted, well, yeah, then Tai-Rat just wins.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 05, 2010, 02:18:38 AM
RE: Zenthor, uh whatever. My gut isn't entirely happy with Zenthor and YEAH I KNOW DAY 1 FREAK OUT but eh, I guess I can chalk it up to a null tell sort of since it doesn't really jive with scumbuddies telling him that NO ZENTHOR, YOU ARE THE DEMONS if he'd post that so whatever. He still feels weird but Carthrat's presence has been meh-ish.

Bad opening vote with bad reasoning coming only after the fact for something completely silly because metroid is completely townie to me  and Day 2 he votes Zenthor which is agreeable except his pursuit is non-existant. In fact he just drops that vote, responds to Zenthor to defend himself and then goes off to cuckalooland and doesn't ever make a coherent case on Zenthor not even in the slightest of pressuring him.

Sad Bard is sad. :(


@Snowfire: Mfffffrbblrblbrfffffffff I have my little brothers coming over tomorrow and it's already 3 AM. :( Make up your darn mind then.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 02:21:23 AM
...ack.  Crud.  Kilga?  Zenny?  Any thoughts?

I suggest we all vote Taishyr then so we can get Bard's vote to come with us for sake of a hammer.  This would actually be okay by me socially as well because then I'd enjoy the rest of Friday night regardless of the flip rather than stressing out over re-reads for the next X hours.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 05, 2010, 02:23:17 AM
What no I don't want to vote Taishyr.

Yes he has been incredibly derptastic and I can say I am not happy at all with the Xanth drama but honestly? I don't want to touch that with a tenfoot pole and speculate about it. Roukanken is a natural unless he's playing anonymous then he does A-OK ++




:( Is it bad that I am leery of the one suggesting for us all to vote someone just for the sake of a hammer?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 02:26:25 AM
Quote
Basically, I don't want it to be possible to find scum tie the lynch at 3-3 come deadline, or even mislynch me outright if Roukanken is in fact town outright who wants me dead.

Normally I'd want to wait and think it over, yes, but even if Kilga / Zenny / I all come to the same conclusion, scum could still upend this and force a lame 50/50 chance lynch.  Unless you can make deadline after all?
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 05, 2010, 02:28:16 AM
Absolutely impossible. If the deadline is in less than seven hours, I'd have less than seven hours of sleep.

There are thnigs I am willing to do for a mafier game but waking up extra early just for a hammer is not one of them.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 02:30:48 AM
Fair enough.

Actually, the "go out and do something Friday night" plan is sounding really attractive to me right now after running home from work and stressing over Mafia on the Internets for too long, especially when I'm already pretty sure it doesn't actually matter if we lynch Tai first or Rou first.  Screw it, let's hope this works out.

##VOTE: Taishyr
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 02:33:56 AM
Blaaaaaaaaah okay, time to make it quick.

Yeah off the cuff Tai/Rat at the very least talked more about each other.  Tai tunneled it down to Rat/Alice at the end which, if we lynched Rat, hey Tai gets towncred while lynching Alice can be excused by LAL.  Rat ends Day 2 saying he's leery of Tai based off of the Xanth/Tai spat but then doesn't mention him again next day until prompted. 

And... Bard brings up a good point.  Though he's brought up a lot of fresh ideas in his posts he never has actually pursued any of the cases to a meaningful degree. 

A point against the Tai/Rat pair is that if Rat is Scum!Tai's scumbuddy then who Tai targetted each night is much less of a tell if Rou isn't scum. 

But... Rat also doesn't address any sort of case on Rou, either, claiming to be dubious of my case on him, and from what I recall Rou never really talks about Rat except to say that there's nothing objectionable.  This might be more scummy to me since I'd imagine scum would want to downplay any ties to each other? 

---

Holy shit I don't like Snow going all Leroy Jenkins about this.  Gaaaaah.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 02:36:43 AM
I also don't like how Snow's not only pushing for a lynch to hammer and has kind of been dominating the end of the day discussion ... 

...

My head hurts.  I think I'm done with this game.  I hope we win but ugh my head hurts.  Honestly I think I'd rather vote Carth over Tai but... blah. 
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Bardiche on June 05, 2010, 02:37:45 AM
Whatever. I'm unhappy enough with Carthrat that I'll

##VOTE: Carthrat

and then go off to sleep.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: metroid composite on June 05, 2010, 02:38:07 AM
Wait, the powerup has already been claimed, so I don't feel bad about declaring my N2 target.

Taishyr: claimed tasty treats that he didn't really know what they did.  I figured powering up his role might tell him what he actually does (for some reason I visualized muffins becoming cake and cake having a doc effect).  This migt give us more information on him if we were headed towards a lynch.  And...I figured the most townie looking players would probably get nightkilled N2 or N3, so I decided to boost someone more middle-of-the-road towniness.

The fact that it's apparently LYLO makes me more suspicious of Tai, though.  Scum's apparently got a lot of power today/tonight.  Did that come from me/Bard?  Maybe....  Not that my suspicions matter (Bard controls the vote, not me; reading/posting from cell phone = yeah...no).
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 02:51:03 AM
Kilga, I want your thoughts.  I'll decide what to do after that.  I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 02:51:41 AM
Crap glad I took a last look before taking off.

Do we want to vote Rat instead?  If that's Bardiche's pick...  sure.  I feel bad about being immature but I'm done too.  Let's just end this.

##UNVOTE: Tai
##VOTE: Rat


Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 02:54:12 AM
Though ugh now feeling bad if it's Rou / Tai like originally assumed rather than Tai / Rat.  ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhh no no no screw it, walking out door now, not looking at thread for another hour or two, going to take a niiiiiiice long walk.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 05, 2010, 02:55:09 AM
I'll be around for the rest of the night. Personal vote preference order is currently Tai > Rat > Roukan.

I'm also not sold on Tai/Snow not being a scumteam, LYLO is a fantastic time for distancing tactics and public spats.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 02:56:01 AM
If it's not obvious I'm pretty much at the end of my rope.  Sorry.  Being the main "alternative" on the lynch train to Rat / Rou / Tai and all is really stressful.

Okay, and now I'm gone.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 03:00:29 AM
Deadline's at 1AM MST, I will check back before then.  My thoughts on "To Eff this game, or not to eff this game" pretty much mirror Snow's.  I hope we win but ugh.  My thoughts are out there I think and I'm not devoting another ounce of brainpower to it.

All apologies to Excal for anything I have done personally to exacerbate the clusterfuck, up to and including going "eff this let's go smash a TV with a baseball bat instead."
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 05, 2010, 03:04:57 AM
Oh Jesus Christ I need to learn how to read. Hold on, catching up.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 05, 2010, 03:16:38 AM
Okay, I see two outstanding issues, both of which I feel I've addressed already in my Nightjacks: Tai's scumminess (Bard) and a Tai/Rat pair (Zenny).

Bard: My case on Tai has little to nothing to do with the raw emotion slung around in the Tai/Xanth spat. Give a look through the Hijack's posting history (isn't it useful to have all my thoughts organized by interval?) to see a proper case against him, and review the Tai/Snow interaction today to see more.

Zenny: I believe a Tai/Rat team is possible, even with the Roukan strawberry wurgle thrown in. Their Day 2 interactions looked a lot like public buddy interaction: talk with each other about a certain issue regarding someone else, but don't really go deep into it and don't really question each other about their potential scumminess.

I think I can also now explain the issue I have with Rat's post: he mentions role meta as part of his reason (well, apparently ALL of his reason) for not liking Snow, and yet he himself has violated one of his own role meta tells, that he mentioned at the end of meme.

  • His role was an outright copy of someone else's weirder role in a ROLE MADNESS game.

The doc claim looks a little suspect in light of Xanth's claim, and falls under this heading.

It's also worth noting that using role meta at all as an excuse to suspect Snow feels like another excuse to not have to really try, similar to what I mentioned when talking about his Alice vote.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: metroid composite on June 05, 2010, 03:46:03 AM
If we're playing role meta...doc is a really powerful class.  In a game with amnesiatic cop, I'd expect a doc role to at best start as a bodyguard role, and maybe power up into a full doctor effect.  A class that's doc without any boosting is...so much better than all the other townie rolls we've seen.

Still, though; role meta >_>
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Carthrat on June 05, 2010, 03:53:15 AM
Yeah, I'm not really trying very hard. Reading the thread is a chore. However my role is significantly different to Xanth's, who only got it after a powerup of some kind. I was always a doc! No doubts there.

##Vote: Snowfire whatevs though, pretty sure this is correct. Unlike speculation over 'which roles could exist?!' my suspicion here is how Snowfire claims to have played his role. Which does not sit right with me.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 05, 2010, 04:08:56 AM
Going to bed, folks, sorry. Today's hike completely wrecked me and I have no energy left whatsoever.

##Vote: Carthrat
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 04:26:54 AM
Right.  Well, if Carth's town, fuck it.  If Carth's scum, yaaaaaaay.

##Vote: Carthrat

And may Excal have mercy on us all.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Roukanken on June 05, 2010, 06:49:15 AM
Totally pointless, but

##Vote: Carthrat (L+1)

Overkill is fun.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Night 3)
Post by: Excal on June 05, 2010, 08:07:19 AM
"Hey guys," Laguna called.  "We probably want to end this thing before the bad guys do it for us.  Or, worse yet, them."  He shrugged as he said this, gesturing at Kefka and Luca.

"I agree!  And my PURE IDEALS tell me that he's an obvious impostor!" Vinsfeld declared, pointing at Raja of all people.

"You fools!  Can't you see, that man has far too many vices to be a president!" Raja cried, pointing at President Loire.

"Y'know, I think I'll chip in just to get him to stop with the jokes.  He's almost as bad as that SEES guy."  And with that, Jin ran up to deal with Raja himself.  Raja might have been able to outlast him (or the dark hour that gave him his powers) if Vinsfeld hadn't of joined in.

"That's right!  We'll show you the battlefield is no laughing matter," Vinsfeld stated right before all three were crushed by a giant foot.

Sadly, it wasn't a foot of flesh, but of steel, attached to a giant war mech and piloted by the man formerly known as Laguna, and more commonly know as the Vice President of the Great United States of America, Richard Hawk, and backed up by a handy DNN news team.

"Don't worry folks, we'll be sure to hold that noted terrorist, Metal Wolf accountable for the horrid crime of shooting a dog," he said as he lowered an arm cannon and casually blasted away Koroku.  Then he turned his attention to the lone figure of Odin, armed only with a mop, and let all of his guns blaze.

Oddly enough, when the smoke cleared, despite the area around Odin being trashed, the only sign the All-Father himself showed was a dented mop, apparently having deflected every shot aimed at him.

"Hah!  You'll have to do better than that to defeat the Leader of the Aesir.  I don't even need the power of the Divine Treasures to defeat the likes of you!  Come, Seifer, let us finish h...  Wait, did you just say Falc..."

His sentence never was finished as with a mighty cry of PAUNCH!!! Team Odin was suddenly blasting off again.

"Well now, looks like our fun time is over," Kefka sighed, horribly disappointed.

"Let's track down where the All-Pig went.  Bet he made a larger crater than Zidane's last stunt."

"Oooo, now that would be impressive!" Kefka sqeed as he scampered off, Luca stalking off on his heels, leaving the two outsiders free from interference and attention.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Excal on June 05, 2010, 08:13:55 AM
Oh, right.  Final Vote Count.

Carthrat (4): McBard, Snowfire, Kilgamayan, Richard Hawk/Anonymous

Day 4, which would have to exist, would be seeing a scum quicklynch as Town no longer has the ability to stop them from getting the double vote.


Final Flips.

Carthrat (Raja - Town Doctor) has been squished.
Kilgamayon (Jin Shirato - Town Persona User) has been squished
McBard (Vinsfeld Radamanthus - Town Terrorist) has been squished
Taishyr (Koroku - Town Doglike) has been gunned down by Metal Wolf!!!
Zenthor (Odin - Town Beloved All-Father) has been blasted off again.

Snowfire (Richard Hawk - SCUM VPotGUSoA) has won the election.
Roukanken (Captain Falcon - SCUM Bounty Hunter) has won the race.


Role info and night actions to come.
Title: Re: DL Mafia (Day 3) LYLO!
Post by: Roukanken on June 05, 2010, 08:18:16 AM
...yuku e
Terashitsudzukeru

Tsuyoku hakanakimono yo
Kono te wo hiki michibiite
Shinjitsu to yoberu basho ga aru nara
Tomadoi kizutsuite mo
Kono chiheisen no mukou
mada kotae wa mienai... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw)

On a serious note, thank God that's over. All the stuff I said about RL being a bitch was totally true. >_>
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 08:31:50 AM
On the one hand, damn it.  On the other hand, fuck it. 
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 08:40:00 AM
Also

Quote from: Snowfire
And lynch ragequitters (who aren't lynched by mod)?  Yes.  Same goes for people who extreme-lurk during LYLO: both aren't around and thus don't have to say anything.  Town can't ever set a precedent that this is okay, or else scum will always do it, disappear, and win with it.  I'm serious.

Though ugh now feeling bad if it's Rou / Tai like originally assumed rather than Tai / Rat.  ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhh no no no screw it, walking out door now, not looking at thread for another hour or two

If it's not obvious I'm pretty much at the end of my rope.  Sorry.  Being the main "alternative" on the lynch train to Rat / Rou / Tai and all is really stressful.

Okay, and now I'm gone.

So goddamn obvious to me now.  Hindsight~

Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Bardiche on June 05, 2010, 09:15:57 AM
Proving that, yes, Snowfire being so pushy for lynch was, indeed, scum. Heh.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Roukanken on June 05, 2010, 09:20:59 AM
[22:53] <Snowflame> Roukan, you around?
[22:55] <Snowflame> Also, Excal, if a NORMAL doublevoter voted / unvoted in the same post, would there be any indication of this in the votecount?
[22:56] <Roukan> GAH
[22:56] <Snowflame> Gah?
[22:56] <Roukan> I just voted you because I'm about to go to sleep, gonna hang around to see if there's a rebellion vote on Tai/Zenny
[22:56] <Snowflame> If Bard lets us test this out that's great, my anonyvote isn't connected to my vote at all.
[22:56] <Snowflame> What?!
[22:57] <Snowflame> PLEASE UNVOTE
[22:57] <Snowflame> That means in LYLO one of us is scum!
[22:57] <Snowflame> Like, unvote now!
[22:57] <Snowflame> AHHHHHHHh!
[22:57] <Roukan> I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE
[22:57] <Snowflame> Second thoughts, don't even have to say anything.
[22:57] <Snowflame> Yes you do!
[22:57] <Snowflame> Please!
[22:57] <Snowflame> We have this game!
[22:57] <Roukan> IF I LEAVE WITHOUT VOTING I'LL GET VOTED ANYWAY
[22:57] <Snowflame> No!
[22:57] <Snowflame> Taishyr is gone!
[22:57] <Snowflame> He's ragequit!
[22:57] <Roukan> WHAT
[22:57] <Snowflame> He's an easy target!
[22:57] <Snowflame> YEs!
[22:57] <Snowflame> He said he's taking his toys and going home!
[22:57] <Snowflame> Please unvote!
[22:57] <Roukan> FUCK
[22:58] <Roukan> EXcAL RESPONDED
[22:58] <Snowflame> We have this totally in the bag!
[22:58] <Roukan> DID I JUST THROW THE GAME
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Bardiche on June 05, 2010, 09:27:11 AM
Hey lookit that I was right on the ball with doublevote shenanigans. :V
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Carthrat on June 05, 2010, 10:55:57 AM
Man I was totally right, again. And I totally dropped the ball, again.

>_<
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Excal on June 05, 2010, 12:27:50 PM
Alright, before I sleep, let's get the setup out there.



Koroku

Arf! Arf!  You're the famed star of destiny, Koroku!  You may just be a dog, but that doesn't mean you're useless!  Each night you can wander the castle and give one special person a strawberry!  A gift that is sure to raise their spirits and grant them new powers!  As a member of the DL, you win with the Town!

tl;dr You are a Town Dog.
Each night, you can pick one person to give a Strawberry to.

Koroku
Recruitment: <7
P: Strawberry Gift - Power up one target.
P+: Doggy Dance - Double Power up one target.
P++: Stars of Destiny - Double Power for one night, Powered up for rest of Game.
P-: Bad Fish - Power down one Target



Jin Shirato

So this is what it comes to.  Never really managed to get out of the background back on the Tatsumi Port Island, and can't get out of it here in the DL either.  But like hell if you'll just lay down and die now that you're at the mercy of those madmen.  So that means you'll have to figure out what's up.  Sadly, most of your contacts are dry, but unlike everyone else, you can stay active when the Dark Hour hits, which means you can keep talking when the others can't.  And there might be some more things you can do...  if you can just remember how.  Regardless, you're aligned with the Town, so you need to make sure they win.

tl;dr You are a Town Persona-User.
Each night you can talk.

Jin Shirato
Recruitment: <11
P: Dark Hour - Can talk in the night phase.
P+: Undying Persona - Bulletproof for night.
P++: Awaken Persona - Bulletproof and can pick someone else to talk at night for rest of game.
P-: Addiction - Become Vanilla until powered up.



Radius

You're Radius, famed knight of Termina.  Or at least...  you used to be..  you think.  Your mind isn't really as sharp as it used to be now that you're in your old age.  Of course, age has its benefits.  For example, you're an exquisite judge of character.  One good look is all you need to know where a man stands.  So each night you can give one person a good looking over, and hope you can remember what it is you found out come morning.  Also, as a man of the law, you're definately with the town and win when they do.

tl;dr You are a Town Amnesiac Cop.
Each night, pick one target to investigate.

Radius
Recruitment: <7
P: Sane Cop investigation, forget result.
P+: Sane Cop investigation, remember result
P++: Sane Cop investigation, remember all results
P-: Insane Investigation, remember result.



Raja

As the famed Raja, you flew in straight from Dezolis, and boy are your arms tired.  Man, the only thing colder than the reaction to your jokes is this situation you've found yourself in.  Bacon Boy and the Self-Help Kid seem to have locked you all up until you've dealt with some doubtless adoring fans.  Well, they couldn't have found a better man for the job!  You're not only Town aligned, but you're also a capable doctor, able to guard whoever you like with your Res techniques, and able to raise their spirits with your find sense of humour!  Regardless, you win when the impostors are all hunted down.

tl;dr You are a Town Doctor
Each night, pick one target to protect.

Raja
Recruitment: <7
P: Res - Doc one target
P+: Ataraxia - Power up one target and Doc them.
P++: Holy Word - Vig target scum, or Doc target Town.
P-: Arows  - Vanilla for a night



Balk Fenzol

You are Balk Fenzol, a loyal agent of the church, and a member of one of the more popular games in the DL.  So you'd think you wouldn't have fallen so low as to be at the mercy of those two.  But, it seems you have, and so you'll have to use whatever tricks you have available in order to get out of this.  Fortunately, you've got dirty tricks aplenty, starting with your trusty Mosfungus Poison, which may not be lethal, but it can weaken your opponents, leaving them unable to act against you as effectively.  Of course, despite being an unpleasent sort, you know the value of teamwork, and so you're happily Town aligned, and win when the imposters are dealt with.

tl;dr You are a Town Poisoner
Each night, pick one target to poison.

Balk
Recruitment: <9
P: Mosfungus Poison - Power Down one Target
P+: Poison Patch - Roleblock one target.
P++: Holy Avenger - Gain Vigilante for the night.
P-: Mosfungus Potion?! - Power up one target.



Vinsfeld

You are Vinsfeld, and with the power of your PURE IDEALS!!! you cannot lose.  After all, who else is better suited to deal with Extra-Dimentional invaders than you are?  Your power, such as it is, is the bolstering power of your PURE IDEALS which will inspire one target each night.  Naturally, you win with the town.

tl;dr  You are a Town Terrorist.
Each night, pick one person to inspire.

Vinsfeld
Recruitment: <9
P: PURE IDEALS! - Power up one target.
P+: Telepath Tower - Power up one target and give them a PM
P++: Undying Beliefs - Gain one shot survival, lasts until used.
P-: ARMS Raid - Lose ability to unvote.



Matthew

You're Matthew.  You came around here as part of the first Fire Emblem invasion, and have languished in the shadows ever since, forgotten by the masses and without a match to your name.  But you're ok with that.  After all, spies work best from the shadows.  And in a situation like this, no one is better suited to finish the job than a spy.  Naturally, you're aligned with Town, and win when they do.  However, as part of your services to town, each night you can target one person and call in some favours (even if they didn't know they owed you favours, you're good at convincing people they do) and prevent them from targetting you.  This may have a greater effect if the person targetted is not on your team, but it's hard to be sure of that.

tl;dr  You are a Town Thief
Each night, pick one person, that person cannot target you.

Matthew
Recruitment: <7
P: Favours Owed - Pick one target, they cannot target you that night.
P+: Master Spy - Pick one target, you watch where they go.
P++: Shadow - Gain Tracker and Bulletproof.
P-: Failed Favour - Pick one target, they target you.



Odin

You're the almighty All-Father, Odin!  Of course, in your omnipotence, you're sitting here in this fix because you want to be...  yes, it's certainly not because you couldn't deal with those two bullies keeping you all locked in here.  That, and everyone knows All-Fathers love themselves a good puzzle.  So, despite being completely able to solve this in a flash with your wonderful powers, you choose not to.  Yes, that's the ticket.  Regardless, you're with the Town, so you win when you've puzzled out who the intruders are.

tl;dr  You are Town Aligned Beloved All-Father!
Each night you choose to do nothing.

Odin
Recruitment: <9
P: All-Father's Rest - Vanilla
P+: Water Mirror - Gain Watcher for the Night
P++: Ruler of the Aesir - Gain Watcher for the Night and one use of Governor
P-: Beloved All-Father - Gain Beloved Princess Status for the night.



Rolf

You are Rolf.  Despite being a somewhat notable Godlike you've somehow still found yourself here.  Maybe it's the fact that you're very quiet.  Regardless, while you probably could leave if you wanted to, there's a bit of work here to be done.  Not to mention that with this many lights around, bad things would likely happen if you busted out the Megid's that'd be needed to get out of here.  So, you'll lay low, since you figure you'll draw too much attention from the murderers if you let them know you were here, and just use your powers when a chance opens itself up.  Which means, most of the time you'll be using your words alone.

tl;dr  You are Vanilla Town

Rolf - Not in 11
Recruitment: <9
P: Home, Sweet, Home - Vanilla
P+: Gires - Doctor one target with no backlash.
P++: Neiblade - Become bullet proof and bodyguard one target.
P-: Megid - Kill target, power down everyone. OPG, not in LYLO.



Thomas

You are Thomas.  Despite being in the DL, you just cannot agree with all of this.  After all, there's no reason why you can't co-exist with both sides.  And if there's anyone who'd excel at forging bonds of peace, it's you, a Tenkei Star whose already done that once.  So, each night you can try and recruit one person to join your Budehuc force.  Town, Scum, you don't really care, since everyone can be worked with.  You win when only the people who have joined your army are still alive.

tl;dr  You are a Third Party Recruiter.
Each night you choose one person to recruit.

Thomas Not in 11, TP in 13
P: Tenkai's Request - Chancy Recruitment.
P+: Unseen Potential - Gain Bulletproof
P++: Tenkai's Power - Guaranteed Recruitment
P-: Point of No Return - Target cannot ever be recruited.



Mike Meekins
You are Mike Meekins, a cop.  Or at least...  you used to be.  But you got chased off the force and then out of town.  Now you're running here in order to try and find someplace where you can make a living.  Naturally, coming from the Lawyerverse of the Ace Attourney series, you are Scum, and win when you control the Vote.  Your scum buddies are Richard Hawk (INSERT HERE), and Captain Falcon (Quiet Rain).  If asked who you are, you are claiming to be Janice, the Chrono Cross Bunny Girl.  You haven't actually done anything to her, but she hasn't had a match since Season 9, so you don't think anyone will notice anyways.

As for what you can do, you managed to snag some Badger Family costumes before you left, since they're the only thing that makes you feel good.  When you go out at night, you can dress up as the Blue Badger or the Bad Badger and pick a target.  If you dress up as the Bad Badger, then you will use his gun to shoot the target, and you will feel inspired because you were useful.  While if you pick the Blue Badger then you will dance the happy Badger Dance, which will lift not only their spirits, but yours as well!  Of course...  since your scum buddies knows it's you, Mike Meekins under the suit, they will not be inspired, and so neither will you.  If you ever go a night without feeling inspired, then you lose your vote on the next Day.

tl;dr You are the Scum Badger
Each night you choose one Townie to power up, or one Townie to Kill.
Scum only has one kill each night.

Mike Meekins
P: Blue Badger Dance - Powers up a Townie.
P+: Bullhorn Blues - Adds a Scum Target in addition to the BBD target.
P++: Proto Badger Dance: Powers up just a scum
K: Bad Badger Dance - Kills one Townie
P-: Deep Depression - Going on Kill also loses Vote.
Must use one of these each night or else get horribly depressed and lose vote for upcoming day.
Cover: Janice



Richard Hawk

You are the Vice President of the Great United States of America, Richard Hawk!  In order to combat the terrorist Michael Wilson and his terrifying war machine the Metal Wolf, you came here to the DL, where there's many like minds with the capability to deal with one lone mech.  Sadly, to get to those like minds, you need to get past these madmen first.  This means you are SCUM.  Fortunately, there's a couple of other patsies here with you to help you along.  First is an ex-cop, Mike Meekins (Noyn) as well as an intergalactic race car driver, Captain Falcon (Quiet Rain).  As for your cover story, well, you've quietly done away with some other rebel by the name of Lepant, and have been passing yourself off as him.  Just mention the Republic of Toran and you should be fine.

Now, what can you do?  Not much, but due to your mastery of politics you do have the claim of being Godfather.  Which means that all investigations clear you, and all assassins fail against you so long as you take no action.  Of course, if you do take an action, you have your own arsenal of mechanical war machines you can use to kill one person of your choice.  These may not be able to stop doctors, but they do have a nasty side effect of weakening anyone else targetting your kill target, including doctors and bodyguards.  There may be some exceptions, but those are rare if they exist.

tl;dr You are a Scum Vice-President
Each night you can be Godfather, or send a warmech to kill one Townie.
Scum only has one kill action per night.

Richard Hawk
P: Heart of Justice - You all American Values makes you a Godfather
P+: Misinformation - Change result to something favourable to scum.
P++: Vice-President of the Great United States of America!: Gain one use of Governor.
K: Giant Mecha - Kills one Townie, one shot Docbuster, afterwards will weaken anyone targetting the kill target.
P-: Miscalculation - Unable to Unvote
Cover: Laguna Loire



Captain Falcon

You are the legendary Captain Falcon, intergalactic race car driver and bounty hunter.  You are here to pursue a bounty of some sort, but your path to justice is being stopped by this farce, so you must end it.  You are working together with a cop called Mike Meekins (Noyn) as well as the Vice President of the United States of America, Richard Hawk (INSERT NAME).  Truly, this is a team that loves JUSTICE!!!  If called on who you are, you have with you a barrel in which you will hide and claim to be the mechanical marvel Gadget Z.

Naturally, this is all to the good, but subterfuge will only get you so far, so you'll need to use you skillz each night in order to go further.  When it comes to killing power, there's nothing that can top your FALCON PAUNCH!  It will blow through all protection in order to hit your target, and everyone else acting on that target will be horribly weakened by the by blow.  Of course, the wind up takes so long that by the time you're ready to hit them, the night will have ended and the next day will also have ended as well.  If you're looking for something quicker, then you can simply demand that someone Show You Their Moves!  At which point you tell them who they should be targetting.

Other stuff here, but apparently my save screwed up.  That's bloody odd.

Captain Falcon
P: Show Me Your Moves! - Taunts a Target Townie, convincing them to use their power on a target of your choice.
P+: Show Me Your Moves! GX - Also Rolecops the target.
P++: Bounty Hunter - Rolecops and Roleblocks target.
P-: Super Smash! - Become Vanilla for the night.
K: Faaaaaaaaalcon PAUNCH! - Slowkill that cannot be blocked.  Not lethal to anyone acting on target when it hits, but will weaken them.
Cover: Seifer Almasy



And now, Night Actions.

Night 0 Actions

Taitoro: Boost QR (Sucess)
MC: Boost Kilga (Sucess)
Noyn: Inspire Snowfire (Failure!)
Yoshi: Poison Noyn (Sucess)
Cyril: Do Nothing (Works)
Zenny: Choose to do Nothing
Rat: Do Nothing (Works)
Alice: Investigate Kilga (TOWN, FORGOTTEN)
Ciato: Recruit Taishyr  (FAILS)



Night 1 Actions

Taishyr: Strawberry Noyn  (Redirected to Xanth)
MC: Inspire Snowfire (Success!)
Noyn: Bad Badger
Yoshi: Bone Zenny (Success!)
Zenny: Choose to do nothing.
Rat: Roukanken (Success)
Alice: Target MC (Town, Forgotten)
Ciato: Recruit MC (Failure)
Roukanken: Target Taishyr (Success, Buffer)
SCUM: Kill Ciato (Success)



Night 2 Actions

Taishyr: Strayberry Zenny (Redirected to Snowfire)
MC: Inspire Taishyr (Success!)
Yoshi: (Bone Rat)
Zenny: Choose to do nothing
Rat: Snowfire (Success)
Roukanken Target Taishyr (Success)
SCUM: Kill Yoshiken
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Excal on June 05, 2010, 12:37:20 PM
And now for general thoughts.

The power setup for this game actually worked about as planned.  It was meant to be a system where Scum had one member who could really work the system at night, another who would have decent abilities during the day, and a third who would be a liability in all aspects.  Sadly, the liability was one of the things which went wrong when Noyn vanished, and I didn't bother to replace him because too many other people had dissappeared, and because by that time I wanted to drop a scum in order to make up for the fact that Town was liable to lose two people to modkills at that point.

As for town, it was to have a stock of powers that were nigh useless when at low levels, but could become something worthwhile at higher levels.  However, there were two keys that town needed.  Which ever team was doing stronger in the day phase was more likely to get power boosts at night.  Same with the debuff.  As well, with Captain Falcon in play, Town needed to keep away from that zone where scum knows what's up, but Town does not.  As it was, Snowfire figured out the setup at the beginning of Day 2, and that gave him a stranglehold on the nights.

Honestly, if I was going to try this again, I'd probably do a little bit more in the way of power up abilities, and maybe even with the power downs, since the double abilities never got into play, and not many town abilities were ever triggered (though, oddly, only one person who got boosted died before it could be used).  Also, was not expecting team scum to be quite so eagre to deprive one of their own of votes in order to avoid boosting a random Townie.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: metroid composite on June 05, 2010, 01:18:06 PM
Zenny: yeah, noticed that one yesterday.  I don't think I would have pushed it even if I was not on a cell phone, though.  (Emotional appeal does make me not want to push someone).
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: metroid composite on June 05, 2010, 02:59:02 PM
On the setup: not seeing the Noyn role as a liability: it can circumvent all downsides by going on a kill.  And...as I mentioned day1, earlygame voteless is arguably a net positive for scum.  (Got Noyn some townie cred, and kept him from expressing opinions...and to add to that it made us form some wrong ideas about the setup).
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Alice Margatroid on June 05, 2010, 03:31:56 PM
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1572/kogasacry.jpg)

Not sure what to say about this one.

On one hand, I'm kicking myself for not pushing Snowfire more after Alice flipped town, because his terrible Day 1 vote for Alice should have looked even worse. I'm kicking myself for tunneling so hard on Tai and Rat that I point-blank refused to acknowledge that Roukan was equally as bad as them by my own standards for finding them bad in the first place. I'm kicking myself for not doing NK speculation on Yoshiken's death, because it was incredibly jarring (I honestly fully expected to draw the NK after Xanth's flip, and even if not me I would have thought Zenthor would go ahead of Yoshi) and deserved some attention. Certainly a lot more than it was given.

On the other hand, given all of Tai, Rat, Xanth and Alice were town...I don't know if anything else I could have done would really have made a difference. Not gonna say more than that, as I'm sure none of you are particularly proud of this game and don't really want to hear someone else rub it in.

Credit to the Snoukan team for doing just enough to never be at the top of my suspicions list, regardless. I can't say I didn't suspect you, but I can't say I would have pushed you first.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Alice Margatroid on June 05, 2010, 03:37:04 PM
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/913/1273282484383.png)

Actually, I will also say that, for how functionally not-very-useful it was, for how much it required me to do extra work more than anything else, and for all the good it did us in the end, I had a lot of fun with the Insomniac role. There's a certain appeal to being the lone actor on the stage, as well as not being under anyone's posting schedule but your own. I wouldn't mind drawing it again in future games.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: COMBO BREAKER on June 05, 2010, 04:35:31 PM
While it didn't come into play as much in the end...

(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/7462/advicedogmg.jpg)
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on June 05, 2010, 04:39:08 PM
So I tried to recruit the most likely person to recruit and failed? Wonderful. Nothing like a role based purely on chance and being killed Night 1.

Setup was absurdly unbalanced if that wasn't obvious from the fact that only one townie had to be killed for LYLO to happen.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 04:49:06 PM
You know, despite getting totally played like a fiddle by Snow at the end?

Totally called Rou.  I'm proud of that, or at least as proud of that as anyone can be of anything in #clusterfuckmafia.

Also.  ANONOMAFIA.  I don't think I'll play anything else again.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Taishyr on June 05, 2010, 04:56:07 PM
I was going to say that SnowFire called me Koroku instead of Kogoro, the obvious mistake for a suikodog->Kogasa swap, and that he had to have known my role somehow to correct me that specifically.

And then decided it wasn't worth the effort with Kilga tunneled on me + my depression kicked to eleven for non mafia reasons. (The ragequit was in part due to just being tired of the game since the beginning of day 2, but also just because life has not quite been fun. BEES are part of this.) So. (Also he'd just excuse himself with Google and Kilga would keep tunneling. Not that I blame you, Kilga.)
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Hunter Sopko on June 05, 2010, 05:00:30 PM
Kilga could've done a better job tunneling. After all, he called out both scum in one post in night 1, but seemed determined to talked about EVERYONE.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108875.html#msg108875

Enjoyed the return of Touhou, BTW.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Taishyr on June 05, 2010, 05:03:02 PM
frankly, he's tied with Zenny for town MVP here. just only so much two good townies can do when drama and explosions and stress occur.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 05, 2010, 05:09:55 PM
Kilga could've done a better job tunneling. After all, he called out both scum in one post in night 1, but seemed determined to talked about EVERYONE.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4995.msg108875.html#msg108875

Oh God, and Noyn was in that post too. Figures I'd call out the entire scum team (EDIT: and the one third-party player, no less) and then go off in a completely different direction.

frankly, he's tied with Zenny for town MVP here. just only so much two good townies can do when drama and explosions and stress occur.

I fully concede town MVP to Zenny, because he was actually right about something, which is more than I can say.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 05:13:45 PM
I have some megalomaniacal in-character cackling I wrote up earlier in case I was around for hammer vote, but eh, still not really in the mood for it, might post it later.

Anyway, want to emphasize that this game was actually extremely close.  We basically bet everything on winning on Day 3.  If we'd have lynched scum Day 3, our position would have collapsed - 3 votes to 1 vote and we would have had to go through *two* more days.  Even worse, a subtle element of the setup is that everyone who has a "notification" action becomes a nigh-confirmed townie once there is only one scum left, since a setup that let scum go on a NK *and* perform some other action is highly irregular and breaking one of the core assumptions of Mafia.  Let's say we lynched Roukanken.  I could then shoot Taishyr, maybe hope to get Rat lynched, and then...  um.  There'd be MC / Zenny / Kilga left for targets with MC likely already town-confirmed, and the other two amazingly towny.  Yeah, good luck winning there.  A better option would be to try to mindhax who Taishyr was going to target and NK them (probably Zenny again?) so that I could keep up the "Taishyr has never provably aided town!" paranoia, but that's a roulette.  Then get Taishyr lynched, shoot Zenny or something, then try and mislynch Rat on Day 5 despite pushing the "Taishyr is lying scum" theme way too hard probably.  Yeah, my hopes were not high at all.  

Along those lines, let me compliment Zenthor / Kilgamayan / Metroid's play (seriously).  You were all really towny and, more importantly, fun to have in the game.  As noted above nigh-confirmed townies are incredibly valuable and was why I figured we were screwed if the game continued anymore.

Also thanks to our replacements who kept the game from falling apart in Glen / Rou.  Obviously special thanks to Rou as if QR had been modkilled it'd have been awfully lonely as 1 scum vs. lots of town.  Also think the "enemy" gambit worked decently well at making us look like an implausible scumteam.

As for my Day 3 play, I wasn't lying about being at the end of my rope, either.  Yesterday was the Friday jobs report (http://imarketnews.com/node/14477) so I was up early for work, then got home to have my heart stopped by Rou's vote (was not kidding when I said that), then sat in front of a computer screen more thinking about Mafia.  For whatever it's worth, the bit about town wanting a hammer was good, towny advice though; if we'd been awake and the issue was still unsettled Rou & I certainly would have  done the "screw it toss 3 votes here and go for majority lynch at deadline" gambit.

Rat, you were 100% right that declaring the power-up was not tremendously towny, but I would have been thrilled if town got in the habit of always declaring these.  I don't agree that it was indefensible - Xanth had, after all, already declared himself, and he was town - but you were on to something.  Also, on the Day 1 case, I figure Day 1 lynches are basically random.  As a towny I fear scumRat, and as scum I fear townRat - correctly, apparently - so I figured why not go big?

Taishyr, my apologies if I pushed you to the edge in any way.  I tried to keep it as civil as I could but  even if you had made the *perfect* post I probably would have jumped all over you for it.  I walked into Day 3 with my suspicions officially still with Roukanken as #1 on the list, so I'd have taken pretty much any excuse offered to stick Tai or Rat above him due to the whole "bet everything on winning today" strategy.

Will probably post more in a bit, but there is one thing in particular I'd like to brag about.  That is the Night 2 Yoshikill.  Let's look into that one a bit more from the scum perspective.  I had the anonyvote on Day 2 as well which I didn't use of course thanks to MC's power-up, so we knew I could get an anonyvote, and this would enable us to functionally end the game a day early.  Thanks to Falcon we could also reliably set this up.  There was just one problem.  If we did a *blatant* scumhammer, then the "demotivator" (as I called the level-downer since they made Meekins depressed) could target one of the scummembers, and presumably a +1 / -1 effect would lead to zilch and humiliatingly quicklynches of US.  In other words, the power-downer had to die before we could even think to attempt this plan...  and we had all of one nightkill to find him.

Zenny claimed to be powered-down so he was out.  MC + Tai had claimed power-upper.  Kilga was a possibility, but his Day 1 speculation about the power-downer role (EDIT: The 'votestealer' as was thought at the time) included a number of mistaken assumptions, so he was a master of not showing off his role knowledge via lies if it was him, plus he was already an Insomniac.  That left Carth and Yoshi as the potential demotivators.  Well, Zenny was hit N1...  and Yoshi barrels into Day 2 with a case on Zenny and hitting him hard.  That's the reason Yoshi had to die.

Incidentally, and I think Kilga picked up on this, the fact that Rat was poisoned - when Rat was who Yoshi was voting the previous day - should have been further confirmation that Yoshi was in fact the level-downer.  If we hadn't shot the level-downer then town would not have had a "negligible" chance of winning, since a level-down aimed at me would have ruined us.  I figured it'd also have the bonus of showing that Tai was trying to switch to a Town wagon on Day 1 but didn't have high hopes it'd come up, and it didn't.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Taishyr on June 05, 2010, 05:21:14 PM
SnowFire: nope. I shut up mainly due to personal stuff + oh hey whenever I speak up Kilga aims at me, I know I'm town, town's best bet is for me to shut up. >_> <_<

I'm hard to cow but life threw me enough curveballs that I did honestly stop caring - my catch on you that I posted was the last attempt I was going to give, and Kilga going "that looks scummy!" before you even replied made me go "...eh, then good luck town".
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 05:39:01 PM
I'm tempted to make an advice dog, but I'm lazy.

<06/05>[10:34:30] <DLMAFIA> Wordswordswordswordswords
<06/05>[10:34:34] <DLMAFIA> Wordswordswordswordswordswordswordswords
<06/05>[10:34:41] <DLMAFIA> wordswordswordsWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDSWORDS
<06/05>[10:34:53] <RichardSHawkFire> Words?
<06/05>[10:34:53] <DLMAFIA> wordswordsWORDSWORDSWORDSwordswordswordswords
<06/05>[10:34:56] <RichardSHawkFire> Word.
<06/05>[10:34:58] <RandomConsonant> Word.
<06/05>[10:35:13] <DLMAFIA> wordswordswordsFUCKTHISGAMEIQUITwordswordswordswordswordswordswordswords
<06/05>[10:35:19] <DLMAFIA> wordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordsGAMEOVERwordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordswords
<06/05>[10:35:21] <DLMAFIA> wordswords
<06/05>[10:35:21] <DLMAFIA> words
<06/05>[10:35:28] * Yakumo sets fire to DLMAFIA.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Carthrat on June 05, 2010, 05:53:50 PM
It only just clicked that both my doc targets were scum. Good god would that docvig have been nice >_<
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Bardiche on June 05, 2010, 05:56:55 PM
Eh, I don't remember who I fingered as scum in my nightchat with Excal on N1. Don't think it's important to keep track of, this game reminds me of a certain individual too much already.

Yes, I was Sasarai for those unawares. I'd decided to keep up with the game and figured to votecount as Excal asked me to. When I switched in, well, I alluded to it earlier but I was not really feeling it when I came to the storm with Xanth and Taishyr. I'll admit I've done the same once and it was incredibly poor, and the memories of UncertainKitten-esque shenanigans here were all but uplifting in spirit.

It's a shame MC had to switch out with me - I feel she'd have done a much better job, and completely found her town-like. I don't think this has much to do with me knowing that beforehand, because she was helpful and actively engaged in discussion - I agree with Rat regarding that she displayed good townie traits.

I liked the setup, and I liked Kilgamayan's night posts. I thought it a shame Noyn dropped out of the game like he did but WCYD.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Alice Margatroid on June 05, 2010, 06:06:37 PM
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3130/advicemomizimafia13.jpg)

Man, Advice Momizi got about 300% more fun after Double Spoiler.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Taishyr on June 05, 2010, 06:15:01 PM
/me saves that just to use for future topics.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 06:23:19 PM
[me]saves that just to use for future topics.[/me]
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Excal on June 05, 2010, 06:52:25 PM
Not enough words there, Kilga.

Ah well.  I will state that when I get around to them, my next two games will both be anonymous.  But, that will be for when they happen.  Also, one of them will very certainly be low power.  These nifty power games are fun and all, but there's also a certain charm to classic.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 05, 2010, 07:07:54 PM
Actually, I'm suddenly curious. Where exactly did the double vote come from? I'm not seeing how that happened.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: SnowFire on June 05, 2010, 07:10:38 PM
Yo dawg I herd you like words so I wordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordsinyourwordswords.

Kilga: I set my conditional vote to fire off as soon as a Townie hit L-1.  Frank the American ninja would show up on a special mission from the Vice President himself.  So Zenny's vote was actually not needed. The extra vote was completely under my control, so I wasn't going to show it off until it was too late to do anything about it.

Also, was not expecting team scum to be quite so eagre to deprive one of their own of votes in order to avoid boosting a random Townie.

First off, the image of Mike Meekins dancing in his Blue Badger costume in the White House to an unimpressed Richard Hawk was far too amusing.

More seriously, if Noyn had stuck around, this would be a way of introducing some chaos and trying to make it seem like there were two level-downers out there.  Or that there was a scum level-downer who'd then started going on the kill.  It also pretty well insulated Noyn from being lynched Day 1, not that this ended up mattering with the modkill.

Noyn did somewhat blow his claim, though, as he should have just said he was voteless for one day.  Then on Day 2 he declares he's voteless again (due to depression from Bad Badger shooting) and the town power-downer says "Crap!  Somebody else out there must also be a level-downer!"

Also the Meekins role was *absolutely hilarious* even if we didn't feel we could safely use the Blue Badger much.  Definitely credit to Excal for that role.

As a note the role PM that Excal posted of me is slightly wacky.  Not sure what "Misinformation" means with "Change result to something favourable to scum" but the power-up gave me a conditional anonyvote I could use however I wished.  Also, Excal informed me on Day 2 that my Godfather ability was actually perma-Godfather, so I was invincible and returned town even when on the kill.  This caused me to think that cops must be really rare in this game, since a town-result on me when there's only one scum left would have almost surely led to a false role-clear a la Villain Mafia and me cruising to victory off "confirmed" towniness.

On other role comments...  had I been forced to the wall earlier and made to claim a powerful role, I'd basically have claimed a "Ninja Trainee" variant from Meme Mafia, where I naturally "level up" every night and get a different role, level-up effects move me up the chain faster while level-down ones freeze me in place.  Figured that would be both a powerful role and a role that would allow me to claim whatever BS is convenient, plus one that wouldn't scare anybody who had a single specific role into wondering why there were doubles of said role.

Also, QuietRain wasn't in the game very long, but she ended up being correct about something very important.  QR didn't want to do anything Night 0, because we didn't know the scenery.  We had no hint that Falcon's Hijacker ability notified targets something was up, and if we'd targeted someone else, then Taishyr's claim of a bus driver would suddenly be a lot more plausible.  Also, already chatted with Taishyr in IRC over this, but the piece of decisive evidence somebody needed to present to make the bus driver theory more plausible was "who powered up Xanth N1?!"  Tai noted that Xanth didn't mention the strawberry, but still.  The fact that nobody claimed it meant something weird was up, and Noyn never confirmed / denied receiving anything himself.

Night 1 scumkill - well, I wanted to push the meme that the LaggyGlen train was suspicious and filled with scum bussing it.  Ciato was the towniest seeming-person at the time on the Alice train (as Zenny was under major assault at the end of D1).  Sorry, Ciato.  (Ciato also had switched to a favorable opinion of me at the end, but nobody played the NK speculation game.)

Night 2 scumkill - See earlier post.

Other role notes - Scum doublevoter is hax.  I held off from posting in the Mafia Mods thread about Metroid's proposed game, but in general, different vote balances upend a lot of assumptions about Mafia.  Specifically, I was somewhat expecting Day 3 to have just been Potential LYLO with no further comments.  I'd mention "yeah I could have been a vig but aren't that's why it's PLYLO no big deal guys" and then town would randomly die, though Excal caught on noticing this in the PM and strongly declared LYLO with an explicit "towny votes towny and town loses."  Which was for the best, the ninja victory would have been lame, but it did leak information that the scum had a doublevoter.  It also leaked information to me when Excal said that town's odds were neglible, which told me that nobody else was a Vigilante for Night 3, and obviously nobody was a Vig on earlier nights, so therefore Vig would be a very safe claim to make.  Don't get me wrong, Excal did the right thing, but vote-powers give the GM the choice between warning town to avoid a ninja victory or of leaking private information, which is meh.

The setup was quite interesting, but as usual increased power means increased swinginess.  Definitely a setup where if all the gears are working correctly for scum they're incredibly powerful, but lose one person and everything would have fallen apart.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 05, 2010, 07:25:49 PM
Snow: No, I'm saying I looked through the role PMs and saw nothing that indicated a doublevote could surface anywhere. Where, game mechanically, did it come from?

"Change result to something favourable to scum" is a very odd way to say "doublevote" if that's what it was.

EDIT: Never mind, read the rest of your post.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Roukanken on June 05, 2010, 10:11:16 PM
May as well say that it's a hard call in terms of Town MVP here. Zenny was on the mark all the time against me, but he couldn't win people over; Kilga had convincing arguments, but he was on all the wrong targets. Both were pretty much accepted as Town, though, so I'm willing to say joint MVP.

Now, back to doing everything I can to avoid Mafia. :V
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Cotigo on June 05, 2010, 10:32:51 PM
Now, back to doing everything I can to avoid Mafia. :V

This is good advice for everyone.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Xanth on June 06, 2010, 12:05:08 AM
Well, lesson learned not to play during the May-July busy period (better lesson to learn: find a better job). Kind of required something approaching a perfect storm to screw up that badly, but apparently it can happen, so let's not harm town so badly again. At least my hunting wasn't so inherently terrible this game, I was just thoroughly distracted by noise from start to finish.

I received nothing in my message regarding strawberries or anything else. It simply said that because an 'opening has appeared' I had gained a single use of gires. Guess it should have done?
Title: Random blathery stuff
Post by: SnowFire on June 06, 2010, 02:48:36 AM
Excellent work, Captain Falcon.  I did promise you a reward for your service of the Great United States of America.  I think you'll find this shield handy.

(http://worldoffancydress.com/images/capt%20america%20shield.jpg)

Yours if you want it!  And the title, too.

Also, had a moderately amusing session chatting with myself earlier today.

[3:28pm] <RichardHawk> OBJECTION!
[3:28pm] <RichardHawk> Why is a Fake Richard here
[3:28pm] <RandomConsonant> No one sane defends P1 design decisions
[3:28pm] <RichardSHawkFire> Fake?  We're talking about Persona.
[3:28pm] <RichardSHawkFire> You are me, and me is you.
[3:29pm] <RichardHawk> I see.
[3:29pm] * RandomConsonant sticks RichardFire's hand in the TV
[3:29pm] <RichardSHawkFire> Anyway Michael is in big trouble now.  His chosen band of lackies couldn't stop me (us?).
[3:29pm] <RichardHawk> Okay, do you learn any cool abilities
[3:30pm] <RichardSHawkFire> We'll see what the so-called Metal Wolf can do against the combined might of Weltall, Worker 8, and whatever Shion's mech is.
[3:30pm] <RichardSHawkFire> Also no.
[3:30pm] <RichardHawk> what
[3:30pm] <RichardSHawkFire> I'm already Vice President, how much cooler can you get than that.
[3:30pm] <RichardHawk> I don't support XS
[3:30pm] * RichardSHawkFire swings a baseball bat at the TV
[3:30pm] <RichardHawk> YOU'RE NOT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
[3:30pm] *** RichardSHawkFire is now known as: ShadowRichardHawk
[3:31pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Call it "surplus mech reduction," friend!
[3:31pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Admit it, YOU LOVE XENOSAGA!
[3:31pm] <RandomConsonant> Looks like someone ordered a stupid looking boss~
[3:31pm] <RichardHawk> I have nothing to admit
[3:32pm] * xorn-jabberwocky eyes chat.
[3:32pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> I, Shadow Richard Hawk, will defend American Justice!
[3:32pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Here comes my wild card!
[3:32pm] * Kotono eyes Xorn.
[3:32pm] * RandomConsonant eyes Ko
[3:33pm] *** xorn-jabberwocky is now known as: SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow
[3:33pm] * RichardHawk eyes chat.
[3:33pm] <SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow> Two Vice Presidents? Right, Cabinet. Assemble!
[3:33pm] * RichardHawk eyes ShadowRichardHawk.
[3:33pm] <RichardHawk> Look.
[3:33pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Yes, Mr. VP?
[3:33pm] <RichardHawk> You can stop insisting I want anything to do with XS.
[3:33pm] *** Kotono has set mode #rpgdl: +vv Dhyerwolf Unoriginal
[3:33pm] <RichardHawk> OR I can find an awesome shadow version of myself.
[3:34pm] <SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow> Like Nitori.
[3:34pm] <RichardHawk> While you will be forgotten for eternity.
[3:34pm] <Kotono> ...
[3:34pm] <Kotono> <RichardHawk> OR I can find an awesome shadow version of myself.
[3:34pm] <Kotono> <SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow> Like Nitori.
[3:34pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Does Kotono want to be the Vice President's true self instead?
[3:34pm] <RichardHawk> Well
[3:34pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Hmmmm.
[3:34pm] <RichardHawk> Vaikappa would be a decent benefit.
[3:34pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> How about we compromise.
[3:35pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> We hold Shion hostage in space or something and lure Michael there as a trap.
[3:35pm] <SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow> Except Vaikappa's currently out for repairs.
[3:35pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> And get rid of two threats at once.
[3:35pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Sound good?
[3:35pm] <RichardHawk> Why do you have a Shion fixation
[3:35pm] <RichardHawk> Get out
[3:35pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Yup, looks like it is dippy looking boss time~
[3:36pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> SUCK ON MY MISSILE PUNCH
[3:36pm] <RichardHawk> EAT MY FLAME OF JUSTICE
[3:36pm] * SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow blows both up from a distance, goes to report back to the President.
[3:36pm] *** RandomConsonant is now known as: RandomObnoxiousReporter
[3:37pm] <RandomObnoxiousReporter> Oh my goodness!
[3:37pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> At least DNN can be trusted to be fair and balanced.
[3:37pm] *** Signoff: Dhyerwolf (Ping timeout)
[3:37pm] * RandomObnoxiousReporter gets shot down, vows to return
[3:37pm] <RichardHawk> There is only one way to settle this.
[3:37pm] <RichardHawk> A tea ceremony.
[3:37pm] *** RandomObnoxiousReporter is now known as: RandomConsonant
[3:38pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> I'll go grab my kimono.
[3:38pm] * Hello-DojimathedralWaddleDee gnaws on the Xofnat.
[3:38pm] * RichardHawk eyes DL Mafia. Okay, this makes a hilarious amount of sense now.
[3:39pm] * ShadowRichardHawk prepares three tea kettles, waits to see which one the vice president will pick.  Green?  White?  Or Darjeeling?
[3:39pm] <RichardHawk> There's nothing like sipping delicious darjeeling tea while watching you prove yourself to be an impostor and a heinous terrorist
[3:40pm] <Ephraim> Peter MacDonald is a far and rightious journalist
[3:40pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Well then.  Perhaps you are more balanced with your other self after all.
[3:40pm] <Ephraim> *fair
[3:40pm] * DrinkYourselfBreen kidnaps both of them, drills out their teeth/sinuses/stomach/other organs, replaces with circuits, and gives them guns.
[3:40pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Maybe one day you'll be able to talk about your Xenosaga love openly, but it'll be long path.
[3:41pm] *** ShadowRichardHawk is now known as: RichardSHawkFire
[3:41pm] <RichardHawk> Or I could just ship you to Brazil.
[3:41pm] <DrinkYourselfBreen> Now stop bickering and go shoot some scientists.
[3:42pm] <RichardSHawkFire> So long as they're not AMERICAN scientists in service of the VP.
[3:42pm] <RandomConsonant> And remember.
[3:42pm] <RandomConsonant> A heart that Loves Justice is a heart that Loves America.
[3:42pm] <RichardHawk> I prefer putting scientists in cages.
[3:42pm] * Hello-DojimathedralWaddleDee imagines american scientists in service of Valkyrie Profile.
[3:42pm] * RandomConsonant sheds a single tear


Had I been around for hammer (and had everyone been in a good mood), I would have posted something along these lines (and if Excal confirmed that the night phase was irrelevant).

---
The defining principle of the Great United States of Esthar is one man, one vote.  I am that one man.  And here is my one vote.

##VOTE: Whoever
##VOTE: Whoever


(http://unmitigatedword.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/american-flag-waving.jpg)

What did you tell them, Michael?  The old saw about being born in Finland?  As if the 34th amendment to the new US Constitution doesn't explicitly allow me to rule regardless.  And besides, the masses will easily accept my faked Minnesota birth certificate.  You could've found better stooges, too.  Say, Rinoa, Shion, or Colette?  All master strategists whose next move is practically impossible to predict.  Odin was a good choice but not nearly enough to stop an American hero like me.

By the way, I'll need a shipment of deliciousness to the White House, MC-Bard.  The Captain can show you the way.  Also, Cabinet positions for everyone who signs up on the winning side - the AMERICAN side.  Thinking Health & Human Services for MC-Bard, and Director of the CIA for Zenny.  Kilga stays up late at night so you can head the secret police and watch out for those terrorist supporters of Metal Wolf, but as a warning you WILL be sent to Guantanamo Bay if you post those cosplay pictures.

Do you think that you and your lackeys can stop me tonight, Michael?  Because I don't think you can.  And now that the DL Armory is within my grasp, do you think Metal Wolf can stand up to my many new toys?  I think I'm going to clean your clock.

Oh, I almost forgot!  Time for my afternoon tea... Nothing like sipping some delicious Darjeeling tea.

(http://cdn.most-expensive.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/expensive-tea-darjeeling.jpg)
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 06, 2010, 03:09:21 AM
So I got pressured into this on IRC.

NOT FOR XANTH'S EYES DO NOT CLICK ON THIS IF YOU ENJOY GALAXY ANGEL TO ANY DEGREE (http://i44.tinypic.com/33dxlid.jpg)

(also features a bonus Eirin crossplay)
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on June 06, 2010, 05:42:16 AM
I rofl'd.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Excal on June 06, 2010, 08:38:50 AM
Huh, oh, Misinformation is still there.  That got swapped out while talking to Alex during balancing.  It was a double vote.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Cotigo on June 06, 2010, 08:51:26 AM
There's a lot of things still in the posted Role PMs that clearly got swapped out for something else later.  Note how Falcon's cover is Gadget Z in the PM but Seifer at the end, for one.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Excal on June 06, 2010, 08:54:03 AM
Yeah, Snowfire and Roukanken both wanted different ones after the game started.  Honestly, the power role stuff was written down to organize my thoughts and show it to Alex.  After that, everything important was in my head.

I am a lousy record keeper.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Yoshiken on June 07, 2010, 11:30:05 AM
Then on Day 2 he declares he's voteless again (due to depression from Bad Badger shooting) and the town power-downer says "Crap!  Somebody else out there must also be a level-downer!"
Damn right he does. Good to know that was wrong too. >.>

So, yeah. To clarify a couple of things:
 - I asked Excal on both of the first two nights if I had to use my ability. I did. That's why I continued to use it, despite knowing there were good odds of me hitting Town. (Funnily enough, the one time I hit scum was the completely blind action against Noyn, which Kilga called pretty well (saving me from roleclaiming early, for all that it didn't matter eventually))
 - I read the PM and went "wait, what, poison?" in much the same way everyone else did when I flipped. My initial decision was Noyn because I knew him from another forum and knew he wasn't a great player. If he was Town, it was no major loss, considering I had to target someone. If he was scum, yay!

Major, MAJOR props to Snow and Rou. Both had their suspicions in there, but so did everyone, and I definitely didn't buy the case on Rou, personally. Before reading Snow's reasoning, I'd wondered why I was killed - Kilga was pretty much ruled out as Town, and Zenny/MC were definitely looking to be almost entirely Town, so it seemed weird to kill someone who still had a few suspicions surrounding them. Obviously now I understand why and have to hand it to Snow on figuring that one out.

Also, anonymafia4lief or something. No idea why this game was such a mess for everyone, but I was seriously considering quitting several times too. RouSnow as scum because they didn't threaten to quit or something? >_>
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Cotigo on June 07, 2010, 04:11:32 PM
Guys, I gotta say, maybe it's because I haven't played more than 2 mafia games in the last year, but I really don't see how the case on Rou wasn't more solid than anything out there (yes, yes, hindsight, shut up).  Hounding on points while painting the posts that answer those points as devoid of content (and thus not worth paying attention to) struck me as pretty blatant.  Maybe I could have spent more time analysing Rou's (also terrible-assuming-Town!Rou) case on MC? 

Honestly, I'm curious as to how I could have made the case more convincing to everyone, if for no other reason so I play a better game next time.  On the other hand:

Now, back to doing everything I can to avoid Mafia. :V

This is good advice for everyone.

But if any of you are still in the mood to think about it, I'd appreciate having this sort of advice.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: metroid composite on June 07, 2010, 04:30:39 PM
Quote
Guys, I gotta say, maybe it's because I haven't played more than 2 mafia games in the last year, but I really don't see how the case on Rou wasn't more solid than anything out there

The big hesitation I had over Rou is that I had similar "wtf, logic doesn't make sense" reactions to some of Yoshi and Alice's stuff.  (And by day 3 they were both confirmed town).

For the record, day 2 if I'd had time I would have done a reread and presented analysis on Rou, especially after Zenny complained nobody else was suspicious since I had felt like Rou's posts were cherry picking maybe 5% of his target's contents.  (Unfortunately day 2 was very short on time for me--I'm surprised nobody called me out for how low content I was, and for promising a reread on at least one of four players and delivering zero rereads). 

Snow...I definitely would not have reread until day 3.  Day 3 the fact that he was alive despite scum knowing he was powered up and scum knowing a doctor role just died was...kinda weird.  And...the whole knowing what the strawberries did...well I think Rou was actually the first one to mention that, so I'd probably give Snow a pass there (and Rou received a strawberry, so no real incrimination there).  Except...Snow didn't say "I just saw Rou mention it earlier" and used a "I just guessed" excuse, which was a bit o_O.  I had also stored away in the back of my mind that on day 2 Snow didn't seem to think me being a power-upper necessarily made me town...whereas a lot of other players seemed to think "ok, if that claim is true, mc's probably town" (Snow's perspective makes sense now that I see the Noyn setup).  And...the fact that Snow claimed the effect without saying what it was (potentially bad, but at least he didn't say what the effect was--so if I needed to confirm my towniness I could have just said "Snow, this is the actual effect I gave to you night 1").  And then after my silly claiming moment (where I was still equally careful to not mention what my effect did) Snow goes ahead and mentions the effect, too o_O.  And...I actually did notice that Snow's day 3 text:content ratio seemed to be lower than I remembered it being when I liked him day 1.  (Not that I was inclined to pursue this when posting from a cell phone).

Granted, I was still trying to get information out of my night action results.  See, night 0 when I targeted Kilga, I got back the result "nothing happened" although I was left assured that Kilga was "well and truly inspired by my lecture", which I assumed was just flavour.  Night 1 when I targeted Snow I got back a one word "boosted".  I had actually come to the conclusion that only some of the roles were boostable, Kilga wasn't, and that presumably scum roles were not boostable (a big part of why I kinda wanted to reread Kilga).  Part of my plan for Day 3 had actually been to target Tai, see if I got the result "nothing happened" and then if I did then bluff that I needed other players to tell me whether my night results did anything, and so ask Tai what happened when I targeted him (potentially catching him in a lie).  Turns out everything was boostable, and I have no idea why I got different messages Night 0 and Night 1 (obviously the plan went out the window when Kilga at the start of day 3 said "oh, I was boosted night 0"--would have liked to have known that day 2...or for Excal to have responded to my question on "wait, did I boost Kilga or not?" night 0).

Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Cotigo on June 07, 2010, 04:47:35 PM
Eh.  "Logic doesn't make sense" doesn't really help you pin anything on Alice.  He... well.  "His thought patterns are very foreign to me" indeed.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 07, 2010, 05:11:00 PM
Zenny: For what it's worth, I thought the case on Roukan was a valid one - as Tai said, carelessness is a pretty scummy thing (though, in my case, I like to think I'm more careful as scum because I don't want to deal with the headache of getting caught on obvious factual contradictions).

MC: I held off on claiming that I had been targeted to the last minute because I didn't want to give scum extra information. Personally I thought the Day 2 clusterclaim was unnecessary at best and stupid at worst, and hey look at that Snow put the puzzle together almost immediately and it snagged him the one role he wanted gone, among other things. I only did it at all because a doc claim had just died the previous day, so hubris got the better of me and I assumed I was unquestionably the N2 NK, having no idea scum were on the hunt for the poisoner of all people. I left it to the very last minute because I wanted to get it out hopefully after all the other night actions got put in, so scum would have the smallest window possible to rethink their stances (as useless a gesture as this was in the end).
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Cotigo on June 07, 2010, 05:27:34 PM
Valid, yes.  Apparently not valid enough to place him at the top of anyone else's lists, except for Snow who it is now obvious was playing along for towncred.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 07, 2010, 05:50:25 PM
If you're looking for advice on how to make the rest of the game listen to you...let me know when you find it, because I wouldn't mind knowing myself. >_>
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: SnowFire on June 07, 2010, 06:48:14 PM
Zenny: Valid, yes.  Apparently not valid enough to place him at the top of anyone else's lists, except for Snow who it is now obvious was playing along for towncred.

Well for whatever it's worth I thought your arguments were pretty good!  I probably WOULD have voted Roukanken over Taishyr had I been townie me, actually, though hard to say.  Depends on how the Taishyr "knowing too much" claim would have played.  I suspect towny me would have made Kilga's guess at Taishyr's claim regardless, so my defense of his attack was mostly pretty merited towny I thought (though Tai was right that me knowing it was Koroku was suspicious - but can you imagine if Taishyr had brought that up?  "You know Suikoden 3 too well, clearly you must have had a rolecop effect that revealed my true name?!"  Yeah, despite being true (I don't know Suikodog names well either, the rolecop is why I caught the slip), that argument wouldn't have flown, I don't think.).  On the other hand Taishyr had a mostly neutral read to me outside that attack.

On the towncred note, though, picking Alice over Rou to go for on Day 2 WAS a sneaky way of trying to mislead town while still collecting townie cred if Rou had flipped.  I figured Alice was unlikely to show up much so it'd be easy to excuse a static suspicions list where Rou never made it to the top.  I was actually a little disappointed when Alice got lynched - still having Alice in the mix would make it much easier to excuse not voting Rou after I already stated my suspicions of him.

If we had wanted some hilarity in retrospect, you should have gone LEEROY JENKINS yourself and voted Rou first.  Watch as I would have quickly decided that suddenly you were the scummy one for rushing ahead and tried to enlist Bardiche to vote you off the island, despite claiming to want Rou lynched earlier!  If I got lynched as a result though that'd pretty well entirely out Rou but we were kind of already betting everything on Day 3.

MC: I pretty much genuinely was on your / Zenny's wavelength as far as Mafia theory on Day 1, FWIW.  No scum member (aside from, briefly, myself) was seriously in danger of a lynch that day so that was pretty much the same as normal towny me, so I don't think I was lying too much in responding to Kilga's night post as attacking my Mafia style.  My big Day 1 scumtell, to me, was trying to whip up paranoia when I misread Glen as claiming an unspecified power role while not actually hopping on his wagon.  Yikes.  Luckily nobody called me on that one.
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Kilgamayan on June 07, 2010, 07:00:22 PM
And Noyn still hasn't logged in since the 27th. I wonder if something happened to him. >_>
Title: Re: DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win
Post by: Yoshiken on June 08, 2010, 11:02:31 AM
I spoke to Noyn when I saw him on TTA chat after the modkill. Went something like this:

<@Cielo> Oh, hey, Noyn, you checked DL Mafia lately? >.>
<@DennyCrane> oh, knew I forgot something. -.-

So yeah. We apparently hadn't been in chat at the same time before that, so couldn't poke him in time, I'm afraid.