The RPG Duelling League
RPGDL Games => Forum Games => Topic started by: Alice Margatroid on September 12, 2010, 07:55:58 PM
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So here you all are, then? Eleven of my finest creations. As fine as a creation of mine can get when it's not modeled after me, of course.
...What? Of course you're not modeled after me. I don't act like that. What makes you think so?
Anyway, I...who's knocking on my door?
M-Marisa? What's she doing here? Why...damnit, I'm not ready for her! Oh no, what to do, what to do...
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...Marisa! What are you doing here? I didn't make plans to have you visit!
...You came to play? Well...I guess it can't be helped. You're already here, so come on inside. You need to tell me when you're coming in the future, though, you dummy.
Would you like some tea? I just happened to be brewing some, and the pot is a little big for just myself...
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Welcome to Tsundere Mafia! Now, I don't mind if you're going to play in my game, but if you have to, at least tried to abide by my rules, okay? I just want you to have a fair game with each other, that's all.
- Day 1 will last 48 hours. Subsequent days will last 72 hours. LYLO will have no time limit, but I will institute one if discussion stagnates.
- Town must lynch on the first two days. Day 3 and beyond, No Lynch becomes a viable voting option. Of course, this means that no majority = No Lynch.
- Scum do NOT have to kill at night, unless the night begins with 4 players left alive (because passing the 4-player potato to town is lame).
- Scum are allowed to speak to each other in private at any time. Town may not speak in private with any other players unless your role says you may.
- 24 hours without a post warrants an inactivity prod. 24 hours after prod without a post warrants a modkill. Inactivity modkills will be flipped at the end of the day. For every prod a player receives when there are less than 24 hours left in the day, that lessens my patience with them and they may see shorter prod deadlines in the future.
- Play to win.
- Don't be lame.
Well, I'm Glad That You're Still Alive, Even Though It's Not Like I Care About You Like That:
1. Mai Tokiha
2. Tatl Helga Pataki
4. Li Syaoran
5. Tanaka
9. Tron Bonne
No! Why Did You Have To Pass Away Before I Could Be Honest About My Feelings With You?:
10. Chiaki (Vanilla Townie) (Lynched Day 1)
3. Asuka Langley (Town Cop) (Killed Night 1)
7. Princess Leia (Vanilla Townie) (Lynched Day 2)
11. Maya Kumashiro (Vanilla Townie) (Killed Night 2)
8. Rin Tohsaka (Town Miller) (Lynched Day 3)
6. Margaret Houlihan (Town Jailer) (Killed Night 3)
It is now Day 1. With 11 players alive, 6 votes will lynch someone. You have 48 hours to vote. You can go ahead and begin posting if you want, I don't really care.
(Also I will try to actually incorporate relevant character details into future story despite not being overly familiar with a handful of the characters.)
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Und so ist es klar das einen Engel sich setzt im unsere Gruppe. Und ein Junge wie'd einige Zauberkräfte hätte? Das ist nicht mögentlich für menschen!
##VOTE: Li Syaoran
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STOPPEH STOPPEH!!!
What kind of Ensemble is this, where the members begin before the conductor raises his baton?
I will not tolerate troublemakers in my orchestra!
##Vote: Asuka Langley
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Hey, what crazy language is that? I don't understand that at all! Speak English, you non-English-speaking person! I'd vote for you right now for wasting everyone's time blabbing on in a language they don't understand...but someone else beat me to it! And stealing my ideas is even more unforgivable!
##Vote: Chiaki
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Dammit, Clow. Why couldn't you have created the Translate card or something else useful like that? Well, I suppose I'll have to use the next best thing.
It's clear there's an Angel in our group! So you're saying this boy has magical powers? That's not normal at all!
Miss Langley, two points: Firstly, it's very notable that you choose me to single out as one of these 'Angels' when I can sense magical abilities in at least two of the others gathered here: namely, Miss Tokiha and Miss Tohsaka. (OOC: Anyone else here with ~*MAGIC*~, blame me knowing jack shit about anime.)
Secondly, there is a literal fairy here. The little thing with wings, flying right next to you? I don't think you're in any position to argue science.
##Vote: Asuka Langley
For blatant sexism. I understand you have issues about Mister Ikari showing you up, but there's no need to lash out at half the population. Sakura shows me up all the time, and I don't complain! If anything, I'm happy to see her succe-
...Wait. That wasn't what I meant to say. I do complain, because Sakura isn't meant to be the Card Captor, I am. Disregard my earlier statement. Yeah.
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Ah, mou! Why are all you fighting? That's stupid! There's no reason to do it... wait, is this another one of Nagi's tricks?
Look, nobody do anything rash and dangerous, alright? Asuka-chan, I think you're being a bit hasty, coming right out of the gate like that. You need to calm down, okay? I'll help you, shhh, it's gonna be okay!
Wait no MIKOTO
##Vote: Asuka
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All you guys are really quick to vote for the same person. It's weird. And most people aren't even here yet!
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Japanophiles in the house, eh?
Man. I hate all of you. I want to vote for everyone. None of you are as sexy as Harrison Ford.
WHY IS TRON BONNE ON THIS GAME? SHE'S CERTAINLY NOT A TSUNDERE!! um
##VOTE Tron Bonne
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Role play and reaction faces will be go soon, just not now due to being in the midst of being unexpectedly busy in the short term. Still want a post out now given we're playing streamlined day 1 (good choice).
##Vote: Tron Bonne
Because a three person pile up at the start of day one is null, and frankly positive in this case if it convinces Asuka not to play silly buggers in German all game. I know you weren't planning to, Asuka, but don't. Shadows on the wall, Tron.
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Look at all of this squabbling. If we had a real man in charge of this operation instead of that good for nothing Colonel Blake then we'd just string up those Reds in good order. But, since we don't, I guess I'll just have to show you all some good ol' fashioned military discipline like I show my nurses.
Now, I certainly can't blame people for wanting to fight the Germans, but they're fighting with us on this one. Same with the Japs. Of course, if you have some proof that she's East German, that'd be a whole different story. Of course, Captain Langly should be aware that this is an American MASH, and that we expect all patients here to speak English. Especially ones whose records state they can speak it.
But Sgt. Bonne, your attitude is worst of all. It's like you don't even want to wage this just war! Wait for everyone to show up? Jumping on one person?! Of course you have everyone jump on the Commies. It's the duty of every red-blooded American to line up and jump on the communists! And if we waited for everyone to show up, we'd all be speaking Chinese by the time we're ready to go!
##Vote: Tron Bonne
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Wow, you make one silly comment to fill space waiting for the rest of the group to show up and BAM, everyone just falls on you for it. You guys thought I was making a serious argument for the sixth post of the game? Really? Wow, are you clueless! Especially you, blondie! Not wanting to wage the war? Oh, please! Nobody told me it was serious business time already.
I was just surprised to see everybody vote for one person so quickly. Although I guess there's not much else to talk about so far.
Because a three person pile up at the start of day one is null, and frankly positive in this case if it convinces Asuka not to play silly buggers in German all game. I know you weren't planning to, Asuka, but don't. Shadows on the wall, Tron.
How about two three-person pileups at the start of the first day, huh? (Don't look at me like that. It's still the start of the first day as long as there's barely one page worth of comments here!)
WHY IS TRON BONNE ON THIS GAME? SHE'S CERTAINLY NOT A TSUNDERE!! um
I know, right? I mean, it's not like I like Megaman or anything. I just want him to realize what a useless load he's shacked up with. It's an act of charity!
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Naja, es ist doch gar nicht möglich das-- was für den Teufel...?! What do you mean you can't speak German?!? Gaaaaah!!! If you have to post─why can't you post in German?!? You're just as bad as that idiot daddy's boy.
Magic brat, stop whining, jeez!! There's gotta be more than one Angel, why the heck should I prioritize on someone other than you?!? If you can't take the heat then don't take the seat!! What's with this pointing at others anyway, brat? What kind of coward would hide behind another's back?!? God, you're idiot daddy's boy number 2.
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Wow, you make one silly comment to fill space waiting for the rest of the group to show up and BAM, everyone just falls on you for it. You guys thought I was making a serious argument for the sixth post of the game? Really? Wow, are you clueless! Especially you, blondie! Not wanting to wage the war? Oh, please! Nobody told me it was serious business time already.
I should have known from your tone that you'd be like those useless morons Pierce and McIntyre. Always a joke with those two! Well a war is no joking matter, and we all need to do our part to win it. Especially with so little time to win it in! You may say it's still the start of the day, but half of this day is already gone with nothing to show for it.
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You're right--you should have known! I still think it's silly to make such a big deal over one line that happened when most of the group hadn't so much as popped their ugly heads in, but I agree there's not enough happening. Really, where are all you bums? I want to vote for someone for better reasons than you've all given me so far. Get back here and screw up so I can vote for you for it! Anyone who's not talking much makes me think they've got something to hide, but that's most of you.
Something tells me people who don't talk at all won't live very long, though...So I guess I can only leave my vote where it is right now. Chiaki hasn't come back to react since people started following his lead, and he totally should. I guess it's all I've got to go with right now.
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Houlihan raises a disturbing point. We are halfway through Day 1, and not only are there no strong cases to work with but three players have yet to post - namely, Miss Tohsaka, Mr. Tanaka, and...Miss Tatl? I'm not sure how fairies deal with titles.
What annoys me about Miss Bonne's play is that she says 'You people are pressing too hard too early!' and proceeds to leave her random vote on Chiaki. She then offers a post in which she explains that people are overreacting...and offers no alternative case for people to consider.
That said, Miss Langley's post consisting of an attack aimed solely at me which depends entirely on my first vote on her being serious (Hint: It wasn't) without touching on the current Tron discussion (or, indeed, anything remotely interesting) also makes me want to just take the next plane back to China.
As is, I'm keeping my vote maintained on Asuka because she's chosen to take a random vote personally and make it the sole thing she's willing to comment on. I find it honestly hard to believe that anyone who wanted to properly scumhunt would hold an attitude of that sort this far into the day.
W-Wait, is that Yukito-san in the stands?! I'll, um, be right back. N-Nothing wrong, honest, it's just...waah!
/me darts off into the distance, bright red
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Here, you guys can have this vote count. I didn't make it specifically for you or anything like that, I just...made a few too many vote counts for myself, you know?
Li Syaoran (1): Asuka Langley
Asuka Langley (3): Chiaki, Li Syaoran, Mai Tohika
Chiaki (1): Tron Bonne
Tron Bonne (3): Princess Leia, Maya Kumashiro, Margaret Houlihan
No vote cast: Tatl, Tanaka, Rin Tohsaka
With 11 alive, 6 votes will lynch. You have about 19 hours remaining in Day 1.
Tatl, Tanaka, Rin Tohsaka and Chiaki will all be prodded for inactivity as soon as I have posted this.
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(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7316/62896147.jpg)
Still busy. I'm going to end up with no role play at all at this rate. Semi-random reaction face attached because I spent too long screenshotting hundreds of them to end up using none of them.
Don't like Tron's 'lol i troll u' response to comments on his view on the first three person pileup. Say what you like, it had multiple hallmarks of early scum play - stifling voting, and setting up plenty of options for voting to fall back on later on without leading anything meaningful. The later over-dramatic self-defence of 'taking too much for too little' that Li has kinda-sorta hit upon doesn't help at all. Not to mention the good old-fashioned pointless call for activity. Hot air. Combine it all with the conviction to vote for passive lurkers at this stage of the game and I'm far more comfortable with where my vote is than usual at this point.
Vote was serious enough when I put it down. Now it's just getting pushed further out.
Yeah, nothing much else stands out to me so far, other than the onset of the deadline. No, not even Asuka for her latest post.
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What annoys me about Miss Bonne's play is that she says 'You people are pressing too hard too early!' and proceeds to leave her random vote on Chiaki. She then offers a post in which she explains that people are overreacting...and offers no alternative case for people to consider.
Attributing way too much to one stray line here, mister. I want you to do a couple things here:
A: Find where I actually said there was something wrong with a three-vote pileup.
B: Find something else that was worth commenting on at the time I said that. You know, something in the whopping five posts made before that one.
Is it really hard to imagine I'd just be surprised about the first three votes in the game being for the same person? Find me another game where that happened in as short a time as it did here. Sure, it might not mean anything, but I thought it was unusual enough to be noteworthy. Also--and I can't stress this enough--more than half the players hadn't spoken up yet. Did somebody post a sign that said "Serious business starts here" and I missed it? I'm really kind of astonished that this is being made into a case and I think it's a testament to how little is being said by the group in general.
Li's actually bugging me a bit here--he picks up on something other people (Houlihan and Maya) have said, repeats it with minor variations, then doesn't act on it. He kind of leaves it there in the background to come back to later if it's advantageous to do so. In case there comes an obvious time to join a train later, he can always point back and say, "No, I was always part of that case."
I'm also not liking how Maya's latched onto it. "Stifling votes." I am really surprised at how much you can get out of one line. This looks like spin to me. "Over dramatic self defense" I take as an indicator that the facetiousness of characterization is being taken poorly. Unfortunate, but I suppose it needs to stop now.
I'd argue that calls for activity are never pointless, and that we might not have so many lurkers here if we had more people leaning on them. I left my vote on someone who hadn't spoken for some time, and whose original vote had gathered others. I thought it might be useful to see his reaction to events. If we don't give the quiet ones reason to speak up, they can easily get away with not doing so. Who's getting the votes right now? The vocal players. But very well. If you want something else, Maya:
##Unvote: Chiaki
##Vote: Li whatshisface
For the opportunistic soft prod.
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Sorry for the lack of presence, today was a ridiculously busy day at work.
So, including myself, this has been a horribly uneventful day 1, it's almost as if the players are too afraid to have me detect their scummy behavior hear me verbally abuse them for their horrendous lack of musical talent should they make their sounds audible.
Not getting any bad vibes from anyone at the moment, all of the barely over half a first page's bickering just strikes me as typical transition from joke to serious bickering.
Unfortunately the ending of day 1 coincides with a particularly bad time for me, since I have work all day and only get off an hour prior to it ending, though I'll try and be around for the last half hour or so should people start making their voices heard and stuff actually happens.
##Unvote: Asuka
Not comfortable with leaving a stray jokevote for no reason, not going to place it on anyone different though since my day 1 reading ability sucks and there is next to nothing to go off of so far.
Remember, the only way a conductor can be of use to the Ensemble is if they actually play enough to let him detect their flaws. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go cook dinner for that Baka Nodame so she doesn't starve to death. What? No...It's not like I ENJOY cooking for that Hentai, jeez.
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Ngh! Get... off... her!
##Unvote: Asuka
Can't we all just get along?
No?
Well, fine! Be idiots! It's not even like the world will end or anything if we don't fight, so I don't even get it this time! Is there a Nagi here? Huh? You're all saying someone is bad, but how do you know, huh? So stupid!
Chiaki-san, I don't like how you're acting as though you want to be part of the conflict, but you're also saying you won't put your chips down until the end. Where you might not even be here! That's a very Nagi-esque thing to do, backing off to let others do the dirty work!
And you! You! Yes, you, Tron Bonne-san! I don't really know where Maya's coming from or anything, but you're really backing into a wall, aren't you? And now you're just doing whatever she says. It's like you really want to get into her good books, while pretending you're looking for bad people along with the rest of us! I don't like that. That's really slimy and suspicious! ##Vote: Tron Bonne
Mou, if only the president was here... even Suzushiro would sort this out right away... anyway, I'm sure the people who aren't here right now have perfectly good reasons! Like not wanting to get into a pointless, silly brawl, or doing last-minute cramming, or something like that. Besides, they'll be here for assembly later, right? Right?
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Captain Langly! I don't know what kind of half-assed unit you piloted for before, but now you're with the 4077 and the American Army, and we expect our fighting men, and women, to fight! Not to point at others and tell them to fight for us.
There's gotta be more than one Angel, why the heck should I prioritize on someone other than you?!? If you can't take the heat then don't take the seat!! What's with this pointing at others anyway, brat? What kind of coward would hide behind another's back?!? God, you're idiot daddy's boy number 2.
I mean, really? Where do you get off saying that he should look for other people for you?! Sgt. Bonne's denials may be troubling, but you're not even trying!
##Unvote: Sgt Bonne, ##Vote: Captain Langly
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@Houligan:
Miss Langley, two points: Firstly, it's very notable that you choose me to single out as one of these 'Angels' when I can sense magical abilities in at least two of the others gathered here: namely, Miss Tokiha and Miss Tohsaka. (OOC: Anyone else here with ~*MAGIC*~, blame me knowing jack shit about anime.)
Secondly, there is a literal fairy here. The little thing with wings, flying right next to you? I don't think you're in any position to argue science.
You can't argue facts. He's whining that a completely random vote landed on him and that there's two or three other idiots who are votable instead under the same excuse I used!! Don't you get how pathetic that is?!? I'm not going to say I'm the greatest at finding aliens─I am even though they all trust that idiot daddy's boy more than me─but at least I'm not going to whine about any little setback!! I'm not going to dogpile with hardly any of you even speaking!
I don't even think his comments are worth responding to right now. I mean look at him!! He's complaining I don't comment on Tron Bonne just because a few people decide to gang on her?!? What the hell, why should I tunnel on her? What is there to go on for her, huh?!
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Due to environmental circumstances, I have made an executive decision. Tatl has been replaced by Helga Pataki.
Tohsaka Rin and Tanaka have both cited issues with the DL loading properly throughout. Hopefully these will be sorted out soon.
Since you guys seemed to enjoy that first vote count so much, I figured I'd give you another one. Since, you know, I have too many, and all.
Li Syaoran (2): Asuka Langley, Tron Bonne
Asuka Langley (2): Chiaki, Li Syaoran, Mai Tohika, Margaret Houlihan
Chiaki (0): Tron Bonne
Tron Bonne (3): Princess Leia, Maya Kumashiro, Margaret Houlihan, Mai Tohika
No vote cast: Helga Pataki, Tanaka, Rin Tohsaka, Chiaki
With 11 alive, 6 votes will lynch. You have about 12 hours remaining in Day 1.
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(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/621/helga1c.jpg)
Ugh. So some stupid fantasy creature decides to just up and leave, leaving ME to find these stupid people? That's just so... so... RUDE!
I don't care. I'm sticking with my previous plans. I'll catch up on you lame people tomorrow.
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Anata no
Televy ni
Jika-net Tanaka
Minna no
Yoku no tomo
OHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! Finally I am able to resolve technical difficulties and come over the airwaves to you!!! I have fired many technicians because I am a busy man and need my beauty sleep, and the hours I am around seem to be hours this website constantly goes down and is impossible to load!!!!
That's what you get for working with Americans! They only care about your money!
I care about your money more.
But right now, I am here, you are here, I am Tanaka, you are a stable of lovely ladies trying to become my assistant. Unless you aren't loyal, in which case you'll be fired. But if you're cunning, I might keep you around, as a secretary or something... if I feel like it.
Business requires action! I will sell my vote for ¥40,000 if someone wants it!! One time offer!!! zero time offer! i will not sell my vote! it is merely flavor, silly people!!!
Ah, but some people do not even value their votes enough to be sold? A vote early is good, inspires early action, an empty unvote, haha, empty unvote more, ladies, so I can fire you.
##Vote: Chiaki
##Unvote: Chiaki
##Vote: Mai (The vote lands on you because your posture is bad. Stop looking so wax and spread your legs a little more. It's no good if the pose obviously doesn't show anything! Use shadow to tease!)
Two empty unvotes!! I like this much less than, for example, Tron Bonne-chan's leaving her vote out. Maybe I'll have to have a two for one sale!!!
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Ano.. Tanaka-san... please don't look at me like that. That Margatroid-san only had the one outfit for me! It's not like I wouldn't mind some real clothes...
Also, what is an empty unvote? Is that when you unvote and don't vote again? I voted! I didn't want to but everyone is doing it! I voted for Tron (are you listening, Asuka-san?) because her rapid backpedaling and fencing around with Maya seems so defensive! And yet appears to be trying to please her in such a slimy way! I don't like that, okay? I've had it with guys and girls who try to be real nice to you but then BAM they're trying to take over the world!
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As a quick response to Miss Bonne, I'd like to ask her to find a couple of things for me:
A: A reason for pointing out things that you do not consider scummy other than waffling (This is, as you put it when voting me, a potential soft prod)
B: As a corollary to her own claim, anything that I had worth commenting on in the posts before I made that statement. It is Day 1, initial cases are terrible, that is what happens. Everyone starts lousy when they start anything - well, except me. I started off being super-competent as a rival to Sakura and looked worse and worse with every capture. But that's just because she got lucky, right?!
Miss Langley's latest post can be summed up simply as 'Hey, look, he tried to pretend he had a case on me in his first post! This is TOTALLY more important to follow than anything else I could be trying to do!' Here's the thing, Miss Langley; if my points are supposedly not worth responding to, why have you talked about nothing other than me this entire game?
Now that Miss Bonne is posting and talking about serious matters (unlike Miss Langley, who has refused to look beyond a random vote) I'm definitely comfortable with my vote where it is. Not understanding the 'You're following Maya's lead' case against her - indeed, I have no idea where Miss Tokiha is producing the idea from.
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Ah yes, Mai. The good old accuse-someone-of-things-and-then-criticize-them-for-being-defensive-when-they-respond-to-the-accusations strategy. I do so loathe it when self-defense is used as a scumtell. Damned if you, damned if you don't. I figured I may as well be damned if I did because silence, lack of response, is worse in my eyes. And I changed my vote in part because people obviously wanted more material from me, yes (though Chiaki's noncommittal stance now tempts me to change my mind again). Also because I actually did need to look at someone else.
Li's "Of course my case is weak, it's day one" is pretty meh. Have to run right now though, and will not be around for deadline. Don't see many better places for my vote to sit right now, so.
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With time winding down so quickly and the day ending soon, I assume you'll want another vote count. Jeez, you're all so hopeless.
Li Syaoran (2): Asuka Langley, Tron Bonne
Asuka Langley (2): Chiaki, Li Syaoran, Mai Tohika, Margaret Houlihan
Chiaki (0): Tron Bonne, Tanaka
Tron Bonne (3): Princess Leia, Maya Kumashiro, Margaret Houlihan, Mai Tohika
Mai Tohika (1): Tanaka
No vote cast: Helga Pataki, Rin Tohsaka, Chiaki
With 11 alive, 6 votes will lynch. You have about 5 hours remaining in Day 1.
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Not just this game that's being tsundere, but also my connection! Or the site's! Or, knowing my luck, both~ Here's to hoping that won't happen again~ *glares at site administrator for a second before returning to this conversation*.
Anyway: firstly, Miss Bonne, it's "Syaoran", not "Li'. Wrong name order - you have to invert it to get the one you're used to. While we're on the topic of Miss Bonne, I'm not sure why she immediately came under fire for her comment regarding Asuka's early pseudo-""pileup"". Yes, 3 votes is not much, but at the same time, why vote her for that? At the same time, I will agree that it's a fairly useless observation and more bafflingly did not come with a vote (if voting for the same person is bad, who should we vote for? it was still RVS at that time, so there's nothing terribly wrong with voting anyone at this time, really). Asuka's roleplay is downright opaque (could you please OOC your reasoning in this post? (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116857.html#msg116857) I seriously cannot seem to figure it out atm).
On the contrary, I dislike the people unvoting without revoting much more than the odd remaining lurker (especially because, well, why unvote Asuka? I don't think she was anywhere near danger for a quicklynch, not to mention quicklynching on D1 is stupid and counterproductive for all alignments involved and nobody would ever do that oh my god). I'll go as far as to say that Chiaki stands out worse here ("your D1 reading sucks", eh? well so does mine - and I'm not going to take that line of thought - especially given that we must lynch someone today regardless, so you're not going to get away with being lazy with your voting here), ##Vote: Chiaki, though Mai is a very close second.
Tron Bonne is a close third, now that I think about it. I dislike the way that observation came without a vote, the SNR of some of her posts, and her case on Syaoran makes little sense: Syaoran explained why he's leaving his vote on Asuka (and the only reason that I'm not voting Asuka right now is that voting for scummy play is a higher priority for me than voting someone for extremely obnoxious and irritating, yet nevertheless bafflingly stupid and counterproductive play, at least at the moment), and I don't really see much of an issue with anything else in his post. Overreaction on his part? Perhaps. But you're overreacting to a couple votes on yourself as well, and it's starting to feel a bit like scum-backed-into-a-corner at the moment. Hm. Hmm.
Still not liking Chiaki/Mai more atm, though.
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Aha! You... spotted the trick!
##Unvote: Mai
##Vote: Chiaki
Yes! That's it! It was a clever ruse to test my apprentices! Definitely not an error due to me scanning for goings-on and completely missing Mai-tan's vote because it came at the end of a paragraph and not on a new line. I, President Tanaka, would never make such a silly mistake... unless I was paid to do so, of course.
(oh my god please make votes easy to spot if you put them in the middle of an otherwise skimmable blah blah I think X like other people have already posted paragraph, oh my god augh Rin you're doing it again right before me here even though I'm agreeing with you)
Chiaki DID empty unvote though and I don't like that! Take some sort of stance, or you'll never make it in the world of finance!
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(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2966/80858074.jpg)
Uh, yeah. So Asuka and Chiaki have done some dumb things. Chiaki's I'd even say could draw my vote if there was nothing else out there. I just don't care much about dumb right now when Tron's been giving off scumvibes like crazy given the circumstances.
Do I need to explain this in further detail? Let's give it a shot.
"Triple vote is weird (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116803.html#msg116803)" is a classic non-committal way of opening options. Scum often want to wait and see who they want to vote for later in the day, especially in day one (and especially in an anonymous game) where they won't have a clue at the start who'll end up in front. String some hooks out like this and if in this case Shaoran or Mai end up taking votes it's easy just to ride whatever the main argument is and strap on 'and I did think that pile up at the start was weird' and suddenly bam, smoke and mirrors makes it look like you were there all the time and not indecisive at all. Bonus points in this case for implying that we should be more careful with our votes, which can only possibly help scum at this point (less of a record to track).
Yeah, okay, so I'm not saying that this couldn't have been done by well-meaning and needlessly curious town, so you're not going to find a defence down that line that will convince me, but at this point the best there is out there is looking for scum's muddy footprints, and this is where I'm finding them.
It connects into the other main part: hot air. What's the point in saying that? There's also absolutely zero point in calling for activity from people on the mod block other than looking active, and scum are the only people who need to look active. Okay, so fair enough, day one, low content, less to comment on than normal. But Tron's out there posting a bunch of nothing. Joke vote, fine. Weird comment, not so fine. One post dedicated to over-defensiveness followed by another post of mostly more defensiveness and then the resolve to vote for someone for not having posted since the joke votes.
Let's highlight that vote, shall we? Voting for someone who hasn't posted since joke voting is a placeholder vote: you know fine well that it's going to move the instant they come in and say anything (and if they don't, they die anyway - that's motivation enough). This is again very standard scum play, as it allows them to delay for quite some time before having to actually take a stand. As town there is absolutely no use in making that vote (no this does not contradict LAL, it's just a misunderstanding of what a lurker is).
Acting active but with a passive vote and bait on the hook. That is why my vote stuck firm as of my last post.
There's much that I don't like in Tron's follow up post, and for the sake of stopping this post getting too long I'll simply say that I'm on the same page as Mai about it, but ask me to expand if need be. While I'm on that, there's a clear difference between defending yourself and being hysterical, and Tron has brought out the 'woe is me' in full. I mean sure, I'll count out plenty of it as role play, but the fluster is plainly there.
I will at the very least grant Tron's point on Shaoran, though. I had clearly overlooked that cheerleading while holding on to the easy mark. That's dangerous, and the fact that I didn't spot it at the time worries me more. Still several tiers down Tron herself, but credit where it's due.
I'd say who's giving me a bad first impression otherwise, but frankly with this level of activity it's pretty much everyone except probably Mai, and that's Rat so hey. Shaoran and Chiaki probably top out the rest for active faux pas, and I distinctly dislike Helga actively avoiding day one entirely (it's not like it's hard to catch up) but with what, two hours to go to the deadline, it would take extraordinary measures for me to move from Tron now.
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Out of everything that's happened today, the only thing that really catches my eye is Tanaka dwelling on empty unvoting! This feels tenuous at best a way to catch scum and a good way to mindlessly hang someone.
##UNVOTE, VOTE: Tanaka
It's hard for me to say too much else, plus I have to go to work now!
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You better be thankful you're getting all these vote counts from me!
Li Syaoran (2): Asuka Langley, Tron Bonne
Asuka Langley (2): Chiaki, Li Syaoran, Mai Tohika, Margaret Houlihan
Chiaki (2): Tron Bonne, Tanaka, Tohsaka Rin, Tanaka
Tron Bonne (2): Princess Leia, Maya Kumashiro, Margaret Houlihan, Mai Tohika
Mai Tohika (0): Tanaka
Tanaka (1): Princess Leia
No vote cast: Helga Pataki, Chiaki
With 11 alive, 6 votes will lynch. You have about 1.5 hours remaining in Day 1.
If there's a tie at the deadline, sudden death rules will apply, regardless of how many people are tied.
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(http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/4560/45291621.jpg)
What is this I don't even.
Because tying up the votes even more going into the deadline in order to pursue a completely new thread before disappearing for the deadline itself is the best action ever, right. I wouldn't insist on you being on Tron, but with an hour to go to deadline you should be picking a front runner or making a damn good new case.
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EDIT: Wait, shit, I screwed up deadline times. Curse this account not being in the right time zone.
Still an hour to go! Lucky for all of you.
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fdjaklsdjfalsk;dfjlj, totally thought I would have one more hour, going to make an effort to read what little cases their are before I get out a decent post.
I would like to get out that at the time of my previous post, pretty much all the targeted lurkers were up for mod prods I didn't feel a need to vote for someone who was potentially up for modkill within a day anyways, though it is entirely my fault for not elaborating on that.
Going to note that I was just about to put my vote on Tanaka since something about his jumping on me for being indecisive on this scarce day 1 and not voting for prodded lurkers just strikes me as off, especially since he
s basically using reasoning people have used earlier.
No to check the other cases more closely.
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jfdlkajskflj; >.>
##Vote: Tanaka
Just getting that out there for the record
Going back to reread anyways.
-
We are all tsundere for majorities, I see.
Li Syaoran (2): Asuka Langley, Tron Bonne
Asuka Langley (2): Chiaki, Li Syaoran, Mai Tohika, Margaret Houlihan
Chiaki (2): Tron Bonne, Tanaka, Tohsaka Rin, Tanaka
Tron Bonne (2): Princess Leia, Maya Kumashiro, Margaret Houlihan, Mai Tohika
Mai Tohika (0): Tanaka
Tanaka (2): Princess Leia, Chiaki
No vote cast: Helga Pataki
With 11 alive, 6 votes will lynch. You have about 35 minutes remaining in Day 1.
If there's a tie at the deadline, sudden death rules will apply, regardless of how many people are tied.
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Alright, read some stuff, still thinking the case on Tron is overreaction to Trons second post which just strikes me as typical post topic #743710948710347 to get the game out of jokevote phase, and then Tron overreacting to the overreaction in response.
Asuka and Li's back and forth doesn't really leave any impressions other then striking me as lazy/and or bad play on both their parts, though I was pretty tired and didn't pay as much attention to those since most the post still struck me as half joking at the time.
Helga basically answered the mod prod and went off to disappear again, without anything meaningful to say, which is annoying.
Dislike Rin's vote on me for refusing to sit on a jokevote, but she at leasttries to bring up other points, unlike Tanaka, whom Laya pretty much said my opinion on best.
Thinking I'm going to leave vote where it is and be a jerkface to the mod (It's not like I'm mentioning it because I'm SORRY or anything) and try and get the sudden death extension so that we can get more worthwhile discussion.
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Deadline has hit! Since there is a tie, the day will continue until one player has more votes than any other.
Li Syaoran, Asuka Langley, Chiaki, Tron Bonne and Tanaka are the only valid vote recipients. No one else may be voted for. The first of those five to have more votes than any of the others will be lynched. If I am not around when this happens, please mill about quietly and patiently until I return (leaving very soon, shouldn't be gone more than a few hours).
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Well carp! I have arrived a little late! TARDINESS IS UNACCEPTABLE IN THE CORPORATE WORLD...
Unless you are the President, of course.
I still find Chiaki the currently scummiest target, for unvoting, and then coming back and OMGUSing me for attacking him for unvoting. It's like he's aggressively not taking any stance on anyone, everyone is "typical" and "doesn't really leave any impressions" except oh yeah Rin and I are bad for voting him. Uhh yeah okay. Leia's accusation of me is kinda hypocritical too (unless you can show me some way of catching scum day 1 that isn't tenuous at best? If so, please do, we can sell that on the show!) but in the interests of not bogging down...
I don't really like the case on Tron but I do like the fact that there is a case on Tron, although Maya's pretty wall of texty about it. The Li/Asuka slapfight reads town/town to me but I'm somewhat less of a fan of Margaret just jumping on. More gut than anything though and well Chiaki/Leia kinda look worse to me.
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I knew day was ending fast, but I didn't expect it to be ending this fast!
##Unvote: Captain Langly
Her answer's satisfied me enough that I don't think she should be court-marshalled just yet. I'm also not for Private Li or Mr. Tanaka, Li doesn't measure up with the other two despite spending most of his time whining and tunnling. As for Mr. Tanaka, I find his fixation on not voting unsettling, but at least he's been looking and so he should live the day.
This was just a quick step to prevent Captain Langly from meeting an untimely end, and will now be looking at Sgt. Tronne and Corporal Chiaki.
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Ok, I have two votes because one person misreads what I said and one idiot boy thinks I am scummy for never wasting my time talking about the Tron case. What makes him any better anyway? Because he made a Captain Obvious statement? Hey everyone, Tron said something about piling on one person, and she doesn't offer an alternative!! This is an obvious case and it is obviously easy to jump on it, why should I waste my breath saying something so damn obvious? It's crap; it's ED1 or at least RVS D1.
Why do we pile on one person during the damn RVS? Because we want someone to comment on it, we want to see reactions. Tron provided a reaction. This isn't some damn science like piloting an EVA that only few people can do!! There's nothing outstanding in that case.
That said, Miss Langley's post consisting of an attack aimed solely at me which depends entirely on my first vote on her being serious (Hint: It wasn't)
And what's with this anyway? Some Chinaman way of saying "I don't understand goddamn English?" Where the hell did I ever take his vote on me serious? I kept my vote on him because he reacted so defensively by pointing at others who fit the bill of my jokevote. I thought that was plenty interesting to keep my vote on and hey look, he refines his vote to an OMGUS and doesn't even have any damn thing to show for it!! He whines I didn't comment on Tron or anything remotely interesting when the only 'interesting' talk was Tron. Unless you count the lurker squad, who I don't because they're lurkers and not worth my time!!
A: A reason for pointing out things that you do not consider scummy other than waffling (This is, as you put it when voting me, a potential soft prod)
This is a dumb trap anyway. We all know, everyone knows, that the only answer Tron can give that she thought it was innocent. This is just asking for the damn obvious. Nothing Syaoran has done today hasn't been kicking in the Temples of Damn Obvious and singing the National Anthem of Obliviousville.
The case on Chiaki is the ONLY interesting thing beside Syaoran brat here today. And the case on Tron is stupid. Tanaka's case is equally stupid especially with Chiaki's OMGUS.
I was just about to put my vote on Tanaka since something about his jumping on me for being indecisive on this scarce day 1
just about to put my vote on Tanaka his jumping on me. You're not even pretending not to OMGUS.
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Looking at things, I'm in favor of calling the MPs on Corporal Chiaki.
While there is a case on Sgt. Bonne, it's all in wordplay. There's no hard evidence. And unlike her fellow, she's talking. She'll make later days better, while her friend here leaves with no vote, no participation, and the worst case he has so far is "he voted for me". The man's dead weight that I won't be sad to see go.
Of course, if I had my way, I'd be going for that 'Princess' instead. She's said next to nothing, and the one thing she did say felt like a placeholder excuse to justify not having her vote on someone who'd actually get hung at day's end.
But, announcing intent to call the MPs on Corporal Chiaki in fifteen minutes.
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Well, for the record I disapprove of this mess. Oh but Maya it gives us more time for discussion when we've had so little. Yeah, but we should have been doing that before now, and all we get is confusion and an inevitable chaotic result of someone voting to save themselves or someone else. But no use whining now.
I'm just posting to say that I'm still around but unwilling to move from Tron. I think it's the strongest thing going and the other options are boringly about the same to me.
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I for one won't mind to see the conductor go. His claim for leaving his vote is stupid. He already said he dislikes ALL OTHER CASES. Leaving only the one he's supporting right now. His claim that he leaves it on for the sake of Sudden Death is downright stupid because if he believed all of the other cases are crap and Tanaka looks worst, he should be claiming to leave it there so he can convince people to get on Tanaka instead. This action lacks of course and I for one won't mourn his passing. Blah blah blah jumping on a bandwagon but if I can't get Li Syaoran today I'll take the only other alternative. So there you have the support of the world's greatest EVA pilot!!
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At least in a two way tie where both targets are already voting for each other you have a chance of reasoned debate. Here, it'll be all too easy to have one of them turning the whole thing into a mess where you can't properly lay the blame on anyone.
Well, I said I'd call the MPs, and time's up.
##Vote: Corporal Chiaki
Stop talking, because this day is over.
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At work, cannot do flavor just yet. (Also this gives me an excuse to research Chiaki and write up something mildly presentable!) However I will at least give you a flip. Don't read into my getting on from work for you guys too much, though. I'm just here to make sure my game can run smoothly.
Chiaki (Vanilla Townie) has been lynched!
It is now Night 1. People with night actions have 24 hours to send them in (sending to either account will do, I check them both).
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"Wer war dieser wunderbare Mann? Haben wir ihn wirklich gerade zum Tode verurteilt?"
"Uh, hello, some of us are still in middle school here! Speak English!"
"Ich kann nicht glauben, dass ihr das getan habt! Er ist nur ein missverstandenes Wunderkind! Nicht mehr!"
"Little lady, I'm gonna have to ask you to stop that. Just because we're battling the Reds doesn't mean there isn't still some lingering fear and hatred of the Germans."
"Ihr seid allesamt wertloser als Shinji! Mir reicht's! Chiaki-san, warte auf mich!"
Unfortunately for Asuka, she forgot that she actually was a doll this time, and fell off the table where everyone had been sitting, breaking into several pieces upon hitting the floor. Curious, very curious. Alice's work was usually much sturdier than that...
"What shoddy craftsmanship! I cannot sell products like this! The people will never buy into such poor quality, not even if it's from me! You! Set up a meeting with Miss Margatroid for me!"
Everyone else, however, had been able to look closely at the wreckage, and it was easy to tell - someone had tampered with Asuka's joints.
But who?
Asuka Langley (Town Cop) was killed overnight!
It is now Day 2. With 9 alive, 5 votes will lynch. A majority before deadline is not required. You have 72 hours. Happy hunting!
(Sorry Chiaki player, life likes getting in the way of things. :<)
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First off, I'm not willing to condemn the Chiaki wagon just for its existence because lazy hunting is pro-scum, and Chiaki was very guilty of that in basically not reading any case other than Tanaka.
##Unvote: Captain Langly
Her answer's satisfied me enough that I don't think she should be court-marshalled just yet.
I don't care if Miss Langley has since flipped Town, I want an explanation for this. What answer did she give you here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116906.html#msg116906) to quantify clearing her?
I'm not intending to budge on this statement, because I hold that Miss Langley's case on me was utter madness. Making a joking response about not being the only player in the game with magical powers in the first post of the game was exactly that - a joke. The fact that she even interpreted it as being 'defensive' was just outright lazy play in lieu of scumhunting.
The reasoning Miss Houlihan gave for jumping onto said wagon at #20 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116902.html#msg116902) says that she is asking me to find players for her. This is a pretty poor reason, suggesting she didn't bother even reading the post Asuka was reprimanding to understand the context, and thus her holding this vote all the way up to deadline is a little troubling...especially given how hastily she jumped off after Sudden Death came around.
Therefore, I hold that Miss Houlihan was looking for any excuse to vote Miss Langley, then either:
a) Hold her to lynch if nothing resembling an explanation was given
b) The instant she offered a response - intelligible or otherwise - move off of her, vote someone else, hit Asuka the next night, gain credit for clearing a later-flipped Townie.
tl;dr Miss Houlihan jumped on the Asuka wagon for a bad reason, and jumped off for an equally bad reason. Therefore, ##Vote: Margaret Houlihan for now.
Also, a formal request for Miss Leia to offer more than a random vote and a last-minute vote on Tanaka, and for Miss Pataki to offer...well, anything.
Finally, to clear up a point brought up here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116941.html#msg116941) - Li is undoubtedly easier to type, and Syaoran is a name I prefer to have used by, um, people who are close to me. I'd rather you didn't ask. >_>
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Mostly, she showed she knew about the case on Sgt. Bonne, and had some thoughts on it. As for jumping on her for a bad reason, show me someone who had a good case, you included. The cases at the time were Tron's possibly trying to encourage people not to vote, Captain Langly's fixation on you, and your vote on the Captain, which, frankly, smells so badly of OMGUS that it's hard to take seriously. I mean, the winning case was on a guy who decided he didn't want to put down a vote because he didn't think anyone looked bad, and chose a bad case when he did return.
As for your grand theory, it sounds like something Klinger would come up with. Tell me, if I wanted the Captain dead, and was trying to fly below the radar, then why would I show up again after the deadline and choose someone else? If I was really that good, I'd either show up before deadline when I could get the same impact without the risk someone would change their mind and keep me from putting on that little show, or I'd just stay quiet. After all, I'd either get her dead with a vote, or with my night action, all without looking any worse than the other people who aren't talking.
Now that all that's done, maybe we can all get past your fixation on a dead woman and move on to something more useful.
##Vote: Princess Leia
You got by on the first day without saying a thing. So, now's your chance, 'Princess'.
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(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5356/helga1.jpg)
Right now, I'm just mad at myself. I should have known better than to leave catching up for nighttime and today. The more left to untangle, the harder it is to start from scratch. Stupid, stupid, stupid Helga! Ohhhhh the vanity of my youth! But thats it! No more Ms. Nice Pigtails!
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/834/helgapataki.png)
Self-tsun aside. The person who stood out most from yesterday was Li. Stood out as much as a stupid football-head I won't mention. Calling Asuka for an overreaction to the jokevote was fine... but that seemed to be his whole contribution for the day, unless you count his overreaction to Tron's throw-away line, which seemed to be trying to produce exactly the kind of reaction Mai commented on from her. Then he oddly goes "Ha! I counter your argument!" to "Eh, whatever. You're posting, I'm posting, and that's okay." in the same post (http://"http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116929.html#msg116929"). Then he just... just... LEAVES for the rest of the day. Talk about trying to fly under the radar, right? Can't say anything incriminating during sudden death when you don't post!
His first post today at least offers much more than his Day 1 content, but his case is also suspect. It ignores a large amount of Houlihan's reasoning and posts at sudden death, zeroing in on only the incriminating parts. His two so-called theories are rather large, poorly supported assumptions at best and wild accusations at worst. Especially when they don't really gel with the rest of his argument, since he's basically trying to say that the things she didn't do are what his evidence supports she was intending to do.
##VOTE: Li Syaoran
Mai is also needs to be looked at! Cause just... look at her! The tiff with Tron Bonne seemed to be the only contribution she made yesterday and also just sort of lurked through the day. I can't trust girls who look better than me that kind of behavior.
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Two people stand out right now:
-Li, for making a case on Houlihan that doesn't make any sense to me. I could kind of follow it up until the wild speculation, where reading too much into things that can't be supported with other evidence commences. Point A even applies just as well for townie Houlihan since...well, that's just basic scumhunting he's describing there. "Lynch someone who can't adequately justify their actions." Point B is forging into conspiracy theory territory and I don't see anything to back it up.
-And, seconding Houlihan on Leia here. A couple hours before deadline with a four-way tie and her only input is a vote that doesn't try to affect the situation in any significant way. A vote I disagree with, too. Tanaka looks fine to me; the case on Chiaki was justifiable for the time. I do have to pull this out and throw it at him:
I don't really like the case on Tron but I do like the fact that there is a case on Tron,
Because I can't tell what it actually means. It seems like a contradiction. Just something I don't understand in context, though, doesn't really jump out as suspicious. Elaborate, Tanaka?
Also, some of you people keep throwing around acronyms I don't know. RVS? SNR?
##Vote: Leia for now, anyway. For ignoring a close race near deadline and otherwise adding nothing to the day.
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OK, screw the RP, because I'm clearly doing really badly here. Screw tsundere, it's time to go from being pretty-pretty RP to srs bzns.
That's right. I'm being deretsun.
Houlihan: Point noted about Asuka, and I'm willing to admit that I was tunneling her pretty terribly yesterday. In my defense, there really wasn't else to cover at the time except for the case on Tron, and I felt she'd explained herself well enough at the time while Asuka's most coherent explanation for her reasoning on me came after Sudden Death (up until which I had been pulled away by RL, much to my frustration). ##Unvote.
Having missed the end of D1, I missed having a chance to really comment on the tiebreak. Asuka would still have been my main port of call, though I can't be sure how I'd have responded to 43 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116967.html#msg116967). Chiaki would be a definite second after his 'uhhhhhhhh Vote Tanaka' nonsense. Tanaka's 'dwelling on empty unvoting' case didn't really ring with me, I didn't see a case against Tron at all after 17 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116889.html#msg116889), and for some reason I'm convinced the fifth guy in that pileup was Town. Who was it again?
As a result, the only people I have left to comment on are the people who, well, haven't done anything. Helga has, in a single post, contributed more of an opinion than Leia and Mai combined (hell, until Helga pointed her out I'd forgotten that she was playing) so the annoying thing is that there's nothing I can honestly say other than 'they need to post more'.
One point I want to raise about Leia, since it's come up - if we're to consider the idea of her ignoring the 4-way-tie entirely to avoid tipping the scale, are we assuming that it was Town/Town/Town/Town?
Since there have been a couple of votes on Leia already, ##Vote: Carth Mai Tokiha.
Finally, @Tron: RVS is Random Voting Stage. No idea about SNR.
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zuh rpmode disengage
soooooo uh Helen didn't post anything meaningful yesterday at all!
Even Leia at least voted.
Um.
##Vote: Helen
Yeah. Replacement nothing. There was like a single page when you subbed in. One page. It would've taken all of ten minutes to read it and say *something* and I don't buy you didn't have any time at all to do at least that. There is a certain amount of slack offered to replacements, I am aware. And then there are people who blatantly abuse that status to get away with things like this.
Extra points for calling me out for lurking today (this is a LIE, what)- also note that she accuses Li of just 'Leaving' at some point, which.. seems stupid? Li was around as much as anyone during day 1, so I don't see nonposting as an acceptable charge against him/her/whatever. Don't much like how she goes 'look at Mai!' and then.. doesn't do it herself, either.
Talk about trying to fly under the radar, right?
Yeah, Helga brought this up a lot against people who it clearly does not apply against, the only person who would fit this criteria that she discusses is Leia. I am also willing to consider voting Leia for lurking as well! But Helga seems clearly worse at this point, she's slinging a lot of mud in attempt to paint the situation as something that it is not.
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Anata no
televy ni
Jika-net Tanaka!!!!!!
Kawu no wa
Imasi-ka nait!
Good morning, faithful viewers!! We have some amazing, unsurpassable deals for you today!
Starting with 1x Explanation to Tron Bonne!
The case on Tron was clearly a totally standard day 1 wording/behavior/looked at someone funny case! I did not like it for bringing an actual lynch! But, in early and mid day one, there is nothing else to make cases on, so I liked the activity and attempts presented to formulate such a case. It is good for discussion and looking at how people behave, which is the true heart of sales.
Wow! Order another explanation now and I'll include 1x Huge Fish!
Today, I am very much in agreement that Leia and Helga look scummy! Not that that really says much, I would be honestly surprised if anyone did not find them at least marginally scummy for their relative lack of contributions. I do however agree that Mai was not lurking day 1, she said a decent amount, Helga's post is rather nonsensical.
But there's more!
What is up with Li? Rode Asuka hard yesterday, then when she was put away wet, goes to Margaret claiming to see a far fetched strategy, then when confronted about that, withdraws and goes along with Helga on Mai. That is hopping on three bad trains, and if there's anything I, Tanaka, hate more than a bad business strategy, it's a sycophant of a bad business strategy!
##Vote: Li Syaoran
Place your orders now, faithful viewers, in the form of voting Li, Helga or Leia, and receive Tanaka's seal of approval!
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Day 2 Vote Count!
Margeret Houlihan (0): Li Syaoran
Princess Leia (2): Margaret Houlihan, Tron Bonne
Li Syaoran (2): Helga Pataki, Tanaka
Mai Tohika (1): Li Syaoran
Helen Helga Pataki (1): Mai Tohika
No vote cast: Princess Leia, Rin Tohsaka, Maya Kumashiro
With 9 alive, 5 votes will lynch. You have about 54.5 hours left in the day. You know I didn't have to give you that much time, right? You better be thankful.
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I'm not intending to move my vote while Private Organa has yet to grace us with her presence. I swear, if one of my nurses ever tried to pull a stunt like that, they'd regret it right quick.
Privates Pataki and Li, stand to attention! Alright, I may not be wanting to call the MPs on the pair of you just yet, but things are too quiet, and I want to hear the pair of you talk more. So tell me what you think about Private Tohsaka. You lot seem to be good at squeezing out excuses for why other people who've only said one thing are bad, so let's hear what you have to say about her.
Finally... there's something that's come up that needs addressing now. Mr. Tanaka, I need to know. Do you do deliveries to Korea? Cause if you do, boy do I have some opportunities for you!
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Privates Pataki and Li, stand to attention! Alright, I may not be wanting to call the MPs on the pair of you just yet, but things are too quiet, and I want to hear the pair of you talk more. So tell me what you think about Private Tohsaka. You lot seem to be good at squeezing out excuses for why other people who've only said one thing are bad, so let's hear what you have to say about her.
Tohsaka I let pass in the lurking charges because she cited connection issues and because unlike the Leia/Mai pair produced some actual analysis. Though giving the wall she posted another pass, the second paragraph is very...odd.
On the contrary, I dislike the people unvoting without revoting much more than the odd remaining lurker (especially because, well, why unvote Asuka? I don't think she was anywhere near danger for a quicklynch, not to mention quicklynching on D1 is stupid and counterproductive for all alignments involved and nobody would ever do that oh my god). I'll go as far as to say that Chiaki stands out worse here ("your D1 reading sucks", eh? well so does mine - and I'm not going to take that line of thought - especially given that we must lynch someone today regardless, so you're not going to get away with being lazy with your voting here), ##Vote: Chiaki, though Mai is a very close second.
Mai gets a last-minute 'oh yeah her too' mention here despite the fact that half of the points made here are on Chiaki alone. Oh, and there's also the fact that on the charge being brought up (namely in terms of empty unvoting) Mai has no relation. And she had already pointed out as much earlier. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116928.html#msg116928) It's like Rin just took Tanaka's case and found a fancy-worded way to agree with it, without so much as bothering to check if his reasoning was actually right.
Also, Mai's contribution of the day has been reprimanding a replacement for, uh, claiming RL issues and being unable to post D1, then claiming that she is misrepping me in terms of, uh, not being around at the end of D1. Which I wasn't. So...not quite sure what you're getting at there, Mai. Or why you haven't bothered discussing anything else.
Content with my vote as is. Mai/Tohsaka scumpair makes sense given that Mai was a convenient close second on the list, but Mai's scummier on her own merits.
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(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6279/62237206.jpg)
Yeah, okay, so I'm not liking any of this. It's hard to hold to one's convictions when no one else wants to give them anything more than maybe a pat on the head for being a good 'early day one' case, because yeah, can't just hold it to scum interference. Worse for my instincts is that the last time I caught scum red-handed like this on day one and no one much believed me I turned out to be perfectly right, but at least the scum in that game had the good manners to kill me night one there.
The other thing that really sits badly with my gut is that I've come into this day late and there's not been a single mention of me so far today. Not one. Now okay, not at the top of anyone's chopping block, that's lovely, but the arrogance in me is screaming that scum are avoiding me to reduce the odds of me going rabid on them.
So no, I'm not willing to remove my teeth from Tron's leg at this point.
##Vote: Tron Bonne
Ran around like a headless chicken, very pointedly did not respond to my expanded argument (you know, after having hated the earlier form of it at this point (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116889.html#msg116889)), and for playing daddy's little friendly helper since to blend back in. What's this, you just so happen to agree with two of the cases of the day that were made before you posted? What are the odds! Let's not forget that the actual sum content of what she did after getting all flustered - which I think is at least part of why people aren't voting for her? - was actually no better than most. The very large attitude change to the new sweetness does nothing to dissuade me either.
So I'm guessing that my position is probably also being harmed by my tunnel-vision. Well great, the trouble with most of the rest of the player base is that practically everyone else has lurked or done something dumb so it's hard to tell them apart so easily, but give me a bit to extract strands from the homogeneous blob and I'll put those thoughts in a separate post shortly.
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(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6554/85606084.jpg)
Leia's an obvious mark from a grand total of one piece of actual input, in itself bad information, and the key to causing the end of the day to be quite such a spectacular wreckage. There's frankly nothing there to defend other than the fatally poisonous 'scum surely wouldn't act that brazenly'. It turns my gut that Tron's jumped on it nice and early, but I needn't consider that relevant. The only thing that confuses is me is why she'd move to someone completely new rather than jump to another town train, given that it was always going to draw more attention and be more dangerous (unless it was an all town sudden death) the way it was played.
I have little to say about Margaret. Everything I would mark up against her just looks like making the best of a bad situation. Not exactly happy with the implication that her current vote is little more than placeholder.
Rin's day one play was Tanaka-lite in terms of priorities, in that at the time of her post her top criterion was empty unvotes, and like Tanaka seems to have thought that Mai had one as well as Chiaki, which I'm not as quick to damn as Shaoran is. I like most of what I see, except for the irony of [correctly] accusing Tron of having a low SNR while having a fair bit of noise in her own post (yeah, sure, me too, keep the irony chain going). Would very much like to see more of her the most, as on one hand I think she'd be a big asset in active debate, and on the other hand I'm worried that that's currently the perfect level of lurking to ride this whole game out (that is, "oh, not Tousaka! At least Tousaka's doing a bit more than X, Y and Z").
Tanaka I'm happy enough with. It's easy to fall into the trap of letting him off more easily for being the most entertaining player, but even keeping that in mind he reads most fluidly and thoughtful in both days.
Having said that I disagree with his point that Mai said a decent amount in day one. Last I chipped in about Mai she was doing okay, but looking back on day one I only see one 'good' post, which I'd put somewhat below Rin. Wary of her breaking case of the day on Helga, in that she seems awfully mad for the lack of Helga posting in day one, which is nice and all, but this is after deigning not to comment on it at the time. And that's it? Not thrilled.
Helga is rude. Undeniably. Very bad grace to skip day one entirely, especially such a short day one, and worse for being so frank about it. Points back for at least getting in early today, but away again for a case I largely can't get behind, so points back to Mai for the case on Helga being on the mark if very oddly timed. I like:
Then he oddly goes "Ha! I counter your argument!" to "Eh, whatever. You're posting, I'm posting, and that's okay." in the same post (http://"http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116929.html#msg116929").
But little else, particularly for a rather weird cherry picking of lurkers, and particularly that being quiet during sudden death is a great idea if your neck's on the line and there's an easy way for you to save yourself.
Shaoran I find to be a bull in a china shop. Conspiracy theories are so cute. You're never going to get anywhere with one, but I see them more as dumb here than scummy. The thrashing all over the place today after the tunnelling yesterday is weird sauce, but at the very least I like the way he's getting all of his thoughts on the table. I'd just appreciate it if he could think about them more clearly and didn't need to be directed. The manner of tunnelling in the first place was still bad, if I'm allowed to say that.
Yeah, great. I think most of you are pretty bad, mostly as a result of how little discussion there's been, and would even be willing to vote for Leia right now. Now back to Tron, who's flipped so many switches that my vote would feel betrayed anywhere else.
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Maya, why do you keep a morningstar in your office? Never mind, I don't want to know.
To your recent posts: I didn't mention you today because I saw no point in doing so. The discussion is not going to produce any more of worth than it did yesterday. I did get home just in time for the extended sudden death and start replying to it all, but hammer happened before I could post and when day two got here I decided it was better to let it lie. There's also this:
So I'm guessing that my position is probably also being harmed by my tunnel-vision.
Very much so. I don't believe you're capable of being objective about me any more. It's neither reasonable nor healthy to be as rock-hard convinced about someone day one as you were about me. I have been in your shoes before and recognize all the signs of the obsessed townie. Probably as you're reading this post there's that hot, tense feeling in your chest, elevated heartrate, that screaming rage in your head yelling, "It's plain as day she's scum, why won't anyone else see reason?" This is what's now doing your thinking for you.
You are talking about other people now, which is good, and I may respond to that once I've reviewed some stuff. But as to your earlier charges against me, there is nothing I can say that will convince you that my day one silliness and blundering was anything but a disastrous attempt at playing in-character during a jokevote phase which apparently ended without anyone notifying me. So I won't bother responding to any of that material. The more of my limited free time I spend fruitlessly trying to debate a fanatic, the less of it I can spend on actually looking for scum. I have rereading and other people to look at right now.
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I didn't know you wanted people talking about you. Didn't see the point, since you aren't a suspect, and not sure how much I buy Sgt. Bonne as one at the moment. And, until your last post, without caring too much about one or the other, you're not worth mentioning.
As for that princess, I know what you mean about it not making sense for a commie to do that, but it doesn't make sense for a soldier to do either. And when (if) she comes back, my vote's there to remind her that she needs to act like a soldier and show that she's thinking about where the commies are.
As for Sgt. Bonne, I'm not overly inclined to believe that she's a commie just from what she's shown so far. I've seen American soldiers fall into that trap too much to believe only Commies do it.
Right now, I'm more interested in pressing Private Organa, and waiting to see what Private Pataki has to say about all of the questions levelled at her.
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One point I want to raise about Leia, since it's come up - if we're to consider the idea of her ignoring the 4-way-tie entirely to avoid tipping the scale, are we assuming that it was Town/Town/Town/Town?
I'm not reading that much into the situation yet. Not enough information. Your supposition is likely based on the assumption that scum wouldn't want to be seen hammering a townie, but this isn't something I'd trust as an axiom. I'm merely working off the general notion that noncommittal = scummier than making a decision that people can later sift through for information.
I do find it a tad odd that you'd make the above suggestion since by inference it would make you town, as you were included in the tie vote yesterday. There is little value in someone touting their own towniness, even indirectly, and actually tends to make them look worse. I can't help but want to take a closer look at someone after seeing this kind of sideways, "Look, this is proof I'm town," business. It just fills space and isn't helpful.
And Li, I personally have trouble giving Rin much slack due for claims of RL/connection issues. Yes, these things actually happen, but: they can happen to scum just as well as town; we have no way of verifying any of the claims made; it's a great excuse for scum to keep lurking when it's taken at face value. I hate slamming someone for inaction when they claim RL issues, but such claims really don't tell us anything useful or reliable. So I take it as a null read and ignore it either way. And without that in her favor? Rin's observations are very thin on the ground, moreso than anyone but Leia.
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Day 2 Vote Count!
Margeret Houlihan (0): Li Syaoran
Princess Leia (2): Margaret Houlihan, Tron Bonne
Li Syaoran (2): Helga Pataki, Tanaka
Mai Tohika (1): Li Syaoran
Helen Helga Pataki (1): Mai Tohika
Tron Bonne (1): Maya Kumashiro
No vote cast: Princess Leia, Rin Tohsaka
With 9 alive, 5 votes will lynch. You have a little over 46 hours left in the day.
Rin Tohsaka has been prodded for inactivity. Princess Leia will be prodded right after this post. Don't read too much into me getting on here at work to prod people, though. I'm not doing it for all of you.
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I find myself agreeing with Houlihan a fair bit, and Helga for at least the main case she's made. Helga's posting for the first time near the end of the day and not commenting on things at all was bad (even for a replacement player), but the case on Li sums up my feelings well enough that I'll give her a pass for now. I'm also not really seeing Mai's problems with her post. Day one inactivity? Yes, a valid charge. I have misgivings about the rest, however.
Talk about trying to fly under the radar, right?
Yeah, Helga brought this up a lot against people who it clearly does not apply against, the only person who would fit this criteria that she discusses is Leia. I am also willing to consider voting Leia for lurking as well! But Helga seems clearly worse at this point, she's slinging a lot of mud in attempt to paint the situation as something that it is not.
A lot? She said it once. And while lack of presence isn't really something I'd charge Li with either (he might not say much I agree with, but he's definitely been here and been getting attention), the above looks like you're building the comment up into a bigger deal than it actually is by emphasizing it. Unless you're including her dismissal of your day one material in your analysis as well (slight touch of OMGUS here?) In which case...To some extent, I can see how one would get that impression of you. Your main points were against me (talked about by many others), and Chiaki/Tanaka, which worked itself out more thoroughly later. It's not real hard for you to blur a bit, given that.
There's some merit to your complaint, but ultimately I find hard to hold any of the highlighted statements as a major strike. Neutral read on Helga in the end. Making a case that looks good to me vs. day one and some minor points. One more thing on her, though:
Helga is rude. Undeniably. Very bad grace to skip day one entirely, especially such a short day one, and worse for being so frank about it.
We agree that leaving looks bad, but I admit to some curiosity here: would it be better or worse if Helga hadn't outright said she was leaving and just sort of slimed away? I don't really see the manner of how she expressed her departure to be something worth holding against her. I don't see much point in mentioning it either way.
Ninja'd by modprods, aghl. Well, I'll be around off and on for a few hours. I'll wait and see if anything comes from it in the near future.
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(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/355/helgapataky.jpg)
Yeah, I kinda missed the obvious Leia lurking case due to zeroing in on my Li case. My bad.
Extra points for calling me out for lurking today (this is a LIE, what)- also note that she accuses Li of just 'Leaving' at some point, which.. seems stupid? Li was around as much as anyone during day 1, so I don't see nonposting as an acceptable charge against him/her/whatever. Don't much like how she goes 'look at Mai!' and then.. doesn't do it herself, either.
Talk about trying to fly under the radar, right?
Yeah, Helga brought this up a lot against people who it clearly does not apply against, the only person who would fit this criteria that she discusses is Leia. I am also willing to consider voting Leia for lurking as well! But Helga seems clearly worse at this point, she's slinging a lot of mud in attempt to paint the situation as something that it is not.
I'm going to assume that by "lurking today" you mean "lurking yesterday" since I said nothing close to the former. Day 2 had just started, after all. Anyway. I really wish there WAS more to talk about with you yesterday aside from your tiff with Tron. Unless you want to count your vague poke at Chiaki or the explanation to Tohsaka which was just clarifying/more on Tron. I did mis-speak though, in that I should have said active lurking. You posted a few times... I guess it looked to people that you were posting and contributing... on one thing.
And Li did "leave". Even if someone is active, if they miss the last quarter of the day, including a sudden death with himself on the chopping block, you have to at least consider it's on purpose. It's not just actions, it's the timing of actions too. Although Maya at least brings up a good counterargument that he could have easily saved himself if he'd been around, which I hadn't considered. It's enough to give me pause, but I'm still in the purposeful camp, so I'm still decided on this for now, with Mai being my #2.
Tohsaka: We seem to agree at the very least that Li's A/B theories about Houllihan were offbase. You are working with slightly more info (Li's quick-flip to Mai afterwards), but we came to the same conclusion. Leaving out what I said about Mai, what exactly about my post is non-sensical?
On Leia: Joke vote, unvote to vote for nigh unexplained reasons. That about sums up Leia, really. There isn't a whole lot to go on really until she posts, if she posts. I'm... okay with LAL if it comes to that, but I'm much more on Li and Mai's case.
On Rin: Her one post of the day had more content than Leia, Mai and others. However, it's inexcusable that she hasn't shown up since so you can't really count it in her favor. Seriously. Post more.
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2738/helgainlove.jpg)
Thank you for the support, Tron.
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Forgot I was playing! This is a placeholder for no-modkilling, but I'm busy right now with a variety of fun paperwork activities. I will try to make a real post in 3.5 hours or so.
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So after trying to read the topic a couple times, I have come to the conclusion that reading this topic is really boring.
Tohsaka I actually forgot was in the game and I figured that people were talking about one of the other T-names in the game or something, which is generally a poor sign. It looks like she’s being dealt with in the same way that I would have been if I had continued my bad habits. Slit slit.
I find voting for people that you half-assedly think anything about is disingenuous and I always try to vote exactly the way I feel regardless of what anyone else thinks. I think Tanaka was bad, I still think Tanaka was bad. He echoes and lightly puts his touch on everything and just seems to be come off as exceptionally slimy in every post. I find him dissatisfactory in general.
Li seems like a misguided townie that seems to be talking out of her ass, and Maya seems crazy-obsessed with her case on Tron. I am not sure how I feel about this. I think that focusing on one case can leave you somewhat exposed to attacks in the event that your target actually dies, but those things are pretty easy to get around. I overall have a fairly negative opinion of her despite having a lot of content in her posts.
I agree with Mai/Rat for the most part about Helga and I think she has a strange assortment of people that she picks on. Do I think this is worse than my admitted gut-check on Tanaka being scum? It probably should, but logic is for pansies anyway.
##VOTE: Tanaka
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I simply will not move away from the blindingly obvious cases. There is Helga, as I discussed earlier; I don't want to just excuse her for vanishing yesterday (as I said before, it would have been quite trivial and non-time-consuming to post something. I can't believe she couldn't have found the time somewhere.) In her last post she accepted a fairly strong counterpoint against her case on Li, then didn't actually re-evaluate things in the name of being 'purposeful'. Yeah this is mafia and there's a place for stubborness, but when a key segment of your case falls out from under you...
There is also Leia, who's last post seems rather lazy, since it's basically "I think Tanaka's bad, for, uh, some reason. Vote!!1" That is actually worse than Helga I must admit, who appears to be making some attempt to piece an actual case together. Yeaaah.
##Unvote, ##Vote: Leia, and you people tell me I'm active lurking? Uh.
Tohsaka is also amongst the ranks of lurkers. Her only post yesterday had basically wrong facts in it, same as the mistake Tanaka made... her case was on empty unvotes, which I guess is kind of not horrible, as long as it's actually true. She did look rather lazy though, pretty much stealing Tanaka's case wholesale, so. Kinda would lynch her too.
Remember, posting does not actually undo lurker status! Once gained, IT REMAINS WITH YOU FOREVER.
I would much rather focus on the people who do such obvious hiding tricks, it is statistically more likely to produce scum. At least, I think it is. I'll compile records sometime.
I don't like the way Li presents a case on me, obviously, it grates to be told 'you haven't commented on ANYTHING ELSE', which seems like a nice way of ignoring what I have said as though it's irrelevant. Maya has pointed out that much of the player base has lurked, yet targets Tron, who isn't- I can't get behind that. I really do view it as the single most important thing to start lynching people for come day 2 (in conjunction with whatever content they have being poor, duh.) Same kinda deal to Tanaka, Li has been around and that excludes him from my potentials, even if he has some fixation on nailing me to the wall for no reason.
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MY OBVIOUS HIDING TRICKS OF forgetting the game was going on. Awwwwwwwwww yeah I am a clever bastard. I think it's hilarious that you call me an active lurker when I haven't been active the entire game! Oh Rat we about to throw down fool.
I have no case on Tanaka that doesn't involve me pointing to the fact that he seems to regurgitate everything. Like, for realz, did anything his Day 2 post say anything approaching useful? I realize I haven't said all that much useful stuff either, but I ain't gonna vote for myself. That'd just be bloody stupid. I don't think Helga is as scummy because she seems to have at least thought of a case on her own.
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My point with the active lurker comment is that you kinda sidled by right then with a lazy vote on Tanaka for no reason. That's not content, opinion was not backed up by really anything except 'he's slimy and he's doing stuff!' So yeah!
Yes your OBVIOUS HIDING TRICKS are OBVIOUS kthx, need I relink to that completely hilarious video to summarize my stance?
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Oh! Leia! You know, if you were to kiss your brother again and film it, we could make a lot of credits together... doki doki!
No seriously though, the sliminess is intentional roleplaying, I'll tone it down I guess. Sad face though.
As for not coming up with cases uhhh I originated the Chiaki case day 1 and continued a serious case on Li today, I don't see what's bad about this and I'm not sure I like attacking people for "not saying anything new" when... there are good cases out there and not much to say that hasn't been said, at the time?
Though, gut call out of nowhere like that makes me gut Leia towards more townie. Mm.
Like Tohsaka, I really don't have anything to say about her other than based on her comments I guess her connection died for good?
On the other hand Mairat's gutting a little worse on me now. I really don't think I agree with once a lurker always a lurker, RL stuff does happen. Game does just seem oddly dead though.
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Gutchecks don't get much mileage with me, so Leia's vote for Tanaka isn't helping her a great deal. The sliminess was clearly intentional as well and there will be sadfaces if he drops character completely. So I can't say I agree with that case or find that it improves her image markedly.
Yes your OBVIOUS HIDING TRICKS are OBVIOUS kthx, need I relink to that completely hilarious video to summarize my stance?
There's always cause to link that video. Anyway, off again, back during normal hours.
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Li seems like a misguided townie that seems to be talking out of her ass
Dammit, it was one stupid school play! Can't we just let it go!?
Seriously, though, looking at Leia's GRAND REAPPEARANCE I'm not very won over. It's better than nothing, but the case on Tanaka basically runs on gut. The only time I could see Tanaka nodding his head in agreement was agreeing that Helga/Leia look bad (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117080.html#msg117080), but a) it's sort of hard to defend lurkers and b) he went on a different case on me anyway. Echoing would be 'yeah me too Vote: Whoever they said' but in terms of actual votes Tanaka's been doing no copying.
But there's worse out there, because Mairat is ugggggh. Uuuuuuuuuggh. Uuuuuuuggggh.
I cannot feel that this rage is genuine. At all. It feels like abuse of the fact he's the only non-anonymous player, so his LURKER HITLER persona gets cranked up to 13 in order to make up for his lack of actual content.
I don't like the way Li presents a case on me, obviously, it grates to be told 'you haven't commented on ANYTHING ELSE', which seems like a nice way of ignoring what I have said as though it's irrelevant.
Irrelevant? No. Blindingly obvious? Yes. Easily attributable to real-life circumstances, and corrected by contribution almost the instant D2 started? Yes.
And if we're to appreciate MEIN MAIDENKAMPF tactics, explain why Leia/Helga are more worth your vote than Tohsaka, who in your own words has offered a single post of stolen content. You write her a clear on 'oh well her case was KIND OF not bad' when for all intents and purposes she's currently the worst lurker in the game. GJ with that double standard there!
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I got called on being LURKERHITLER in the game in which I was LURKERHITLER as if it was a bad thing, too. Some things never change, I guess.
Anyway. You are kinda being absurdly nitpicky. Let's get this out of the way first- I consider all of Helga, Leia, and Tohsaka to be lurkers. Helga is actually the best out of them at the moment since she's been around today, though missing all of day 1 is still pretty uh and I'd still be willing to lynch her.
Leia is kind of awful. It's not just that she lurked all d1 with token votes, but her only case today is pretty much BS, it wasn't even a case so much as "I don't like him, vote!1"
Tohsaka is also pretty bad. She actually posted some stuff yesterday that looked like maybe she put some thought into it (or maybe she just copied it, I'm not sure, still more than Leia.) Did you miss the part in my earlier post where I said I'd lynch her, too? The dividing line between these two is actually really small. Ultimately they've both posted next to nothing, and the tiny tidbit of what Tohsaka did post looks slightly less bad than what Leia did. Thus, my vote.
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(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/834/helgapataki.png)
I simply will not move away from the blindingly obvious cases. There is Helga, as I discussed earlier; I don't want to just excuse her for vanishing yesterday (as I said before, it would have been quite trivial and non-time-consuming to post something. I can't believe she couldn't have found the time somewhere.) In her last post she accepted a fairly strong counterpoint against her case on Li, then didn't actually re-evaluate things in the name of being 'purposeful'.
You might have misunderstood me a bit. I was sticking to my guns because I still believed that Li's absence was on purpose, not... whatever you mean by "being purposeful". But the case does bear further consideration due to...
Leia posted! And... I honestly cannot make heads or tails on the case, other than gut vote. Not really news, but... yeah. Nothing else to go on. At best it's extremely lazy town play. At best. This honestly benefits no one. While Li is going about things in a rather haphazard fashion, at least he is trying to put something together. Leia is just... I don't know what. They're certainly not really trying to put something solid together, especially when the heat is on them. Know what does that? Scum and bad townies. And we don't need either.
##Unvote
##Vote: Princess Leia
That brings her to -1, I believe.
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/355/helgapataky.jpg)
Tanaka also just sort of ignored my question... I would still like an answer to the question I asked in my previous post.
Also just sort of headdesking about Rin... but if it does keep going like it has been, the mod will sort it out before we will have to. I don't think there's that much more time left.
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Poking in to say that I'm alive and will have stuff up in at most an hour.
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Day 2 Vote Count!
Margeret Houlihan (0): Li Syaoran
Princess Leia (4): Margaret Houlihan, Tron Bonne, Mai Tohika, Helga Pataki
Li Syaoran (1): Helga Pataki, Tanaka
Mai Tohika (1): Li Syaoran
Helen Helga Pataki (0): Mai Tohika
Tron Bonne (1): Maya Kumashiro
Tanaka (1): Princess Leia
No vote cast: Rin Tohsaka
With 9 alive, 5 votes will lynch. You have a little over 27.5 hours left in the day.
Princess Leia is at L-1. I know Helga already pointed it out, but I figured you might appreciate a official warning anyway. It's...it's just good form, after all.
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I do not think Tanaka is scum because of his flavor (lulz). I think he is scum because of his presence but non-presence. Rat's passive-aggressive bitchiness I find somewhat concerning, I'm not sure if he is trying to channel being a real tsundere or if he is a bitchy-bitchy scum-scum. BLAH BLAH YOU CAN NEVER NOT BE A LURKER whatever dude. Don't lynch Li, she's not scum. I am vanilla town.
And now, for something better than you~
I control the world
You controlled my heart
And life was easier than watching evil empires fall apart
You saw that only my blood lust could tear us apart
So you raided my artillery for a tranquilizer dart
You steadied, took your aim, and shot me straight in the heart
Let your tender reign over me start
I spend the next twenty years with my head between your knees
All the while making sure you heard my cautionary pleas
There's a price on my head at which nobody would sneeze
Cuz I sailed the, sailed the seven seas
Accumulating so many enemies
They would fall for me
And I would fall to you
And you're the closest thing I'll ever have to Waterloo
When they write my history
Will they include all your conquests of me?
I'd totally hammer myself if it wouldn't cause epic tears and sobbery. (Watch this turn into aweeesome WIFOM speculation about if I am trying to FOOL YOU INTO BELIEVING THAT I AM TOWN BY NOT HAMMERING MYSELF!)
(And yes, I know my behavior is deplorable. Unfortunately, I'm prone to such bouts of deplorability. It goes along with being a tsundere.)
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Don't lynch Li, she's not scum.
Look, we REALLY need to go over this gender thing.
Leia's outburst may as well be ignored either way, the lack of useful comments to go with it are the real problem. Honestly, though, still don't think she's the best target today. No, apparently I accidentally took a swig of Carth's MAIDENKAMPF MINERAL WATER (all caps necessary), and I'm about ready to put an end to the most brazen lurker of all.
##Unvote, Vote: Rin Tohsaka
She promised to have something that wasn't a reworded version of Tanaka's case up within the hour. Three-and-a-half hours ago. One post of borrowed content in four days is just pushing it.
Would still like to see a Mai/Tohsaka lynch ahead of Leia today. Not convinced by Mai saying that Leia's vote on Tanaka is worse than Rin's stolen vote on Chiaki (complete with the same mistake that Tanaka made while he prepared the case!)
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And Li did "leave". Even if someone is active, if they miss the last quarter of the day, including a sudden death with himself on the chopping block, you have to at least consider it's on purpose. It's not just actions, it's the timing of actions too. Although Maya at least brings up a good counterargument that he could have easily saved himself if he'd been around, which I hadn't considered. It's enough to give me pause, but I'm still in the purposeful camp, so I'm still decided on this for now, with Mai being my #2.
Actually, by that logic it strongly looks in his favour to be around during the end of the day, if you're still going by the "Li-skipped-a-day-on-purpose" logic. Not sure what to think of the rest of the Li case, beyond the fact that so much of it seems to be based around things that Li did that were odd or nonsensical rather than scummy or even anti-town. He does have case-parroting against him, but it doesn't seen to be blatant and the case is otherwise valid, and the rest of his behaviours are more "lolwhat" than scummy.
In general, ugh. This is bad, but not enough to make Helga a top target.
Seconding Mai that the blindingly obvious cases are the ones to go after. First off, there's Leia. Do I even have to elaborate on this? Shows up, calls the thread boring, and then half-asses a case on "gut"? After the absolutely craptacular behaviour yesterday at deadline? Yeah no. At worst you're scum, at best you're being an extremely blatant distraction playing extremely anti-town. So yeah. Dieplz.
Ugh. Leia: could you quit being a jackass? Much appreciated. Thanks.
(Actually, wait, Tron seems to indicate that the slimeness on Tanaka's part is RP? That means that Leia voted someone over--argh goddamnit how much worse can you get?)
The other people that stuck out when rereading were Margaret and Tron. Regarding the former, well... on the one hand, her reaction to Asuka's post when he unvoted her was a bit... not quite warranted (I don't see how her actions cleared her at that point), but on the other hand given flips it seems slightly less of an issue than it would be otherwise (or I could just be making no sense at all here). Once again, I came into this with a negative opinion of her from her earlier D1 play, but her latest posts all seem to be fine. Short, but the cases are fine and I can't say I disagree with the vote for Leia, or the reasoning for it. Still not convinced about her opinions regarding Tron, though.
Tron is a bit less obvious. I'm starting from Maya's case on D1, which was brought up again D2. D1 she overreacted and generally made a clown of herself, which... perhaps is slightly scummy, but I'm not sure how likely town are to flail around in a mad panic if they think they'll be lynched early, so... hm. That being said, D2: Maya has posted on people other than you, today, in fact a fair amount in her second major post today. You have... not. Some commentary on stuff that doesn't seem all that useful for alignment-determining purposes, such as the late-D1 Helga rudeness, and of course the Houlihan case at the beginning of the day, but most of your posts were either further arguments with Maya, or some speculation as to whether scum would want to hammer a townie at the end of D1 or further perpetuate a tie (fairly pointless imho, not to mention so prone to interpretation that it basically falls apart completely). So yeah. A bit more commentary, something on the scale of Maya's post about everyone-that-was-not-you would be nice, thanks. Much appreciated.
Don't really have any issues with Maya. MAIDENKAMPF...hmm. Li: I'm not sure why you think that Leia isn't the one of the lurkers to go after. Lurking, then returning only to contribute precisely nothing over the course of several posts is imho even worse than Vanilla Lurking. As for the rest... uh yeah I think Li is just being absurdly nitpicky. I'll disagree that Helga is worth a vote, but otherwise I... don't see any problems with his cases? Yeah, don't see anything that would make me think he's scum so far.
(Li: yes, stuff came up. Oh noez, it took a little longer. Would you rather I have not proofread and checked this over? Yes my lurking is inexcusable but now of all times is a remarkably odd time for someone to crack regarding it).
Couple of issues with your comment: first off, I fail to see how my behaviour is worse than Leia's. D1, perhaps, though I stand to think that jumping in and voting for someone with no logic at all is worse than actually trying to state some sort of opinion. D2, though? Come on. But regardless of that, we're just mincing words here. As for mistakes, I'm... not seeing them. Unless you try to claim that Chiaki didn't unvote someone pointlessly without voting for someone else, which either he definetly did on D1, or I'm blind - as that was the main argument behind my case. Weak in general? Sure. But for D1 I'd like to consider it as not being bad, especially as I was otherwise wary of the Tron Bonne case at the time. Whatever. Anyway, still don't think Li's anything other than a townie at this point, albeit misguided.
The only person I still can't really make sense of right now is Helga, but let me get this out first before I land on the business end of a sword... or worse. More in my next post.
No vote, partly because Leia's at L-1 and partly because... I'm not 100% convinced on Leia. Her behaviour is horribad, but I can't seem to get over the feeling that this is too easy almost. Like you'd think that an actual scum would put more effort into, y'know, saving themselves, than what Leia is doing right now (which seems to be basically walking headfirst towards the guillotine). Blargh.
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Leia's trolling makes it basically impossible for me to move my vote off of her. Really, what else can we do with that? If it's not scum trying to provoke a lynch that seems destined to happen anyway, in order to end the day and short-circuit discussion...well, the only explanation I can think of for a townie Leia is that the player just wants out of the game. In which case the method of bringing this about warrants an intimate meeting with a sack full of doorknobs after this game's over, because seriously man.
Li: Attacking Rin for her post being delayed is, like a lot of suggested evidence you've brought up, inconclusive. I am personally a slow typer and take some time to organize my thoughts, so it's not hard for me to imagine a post taking longer than planned. The post did happen, within a couple hours. If it was half a day late or something, sure, that's cause for suspicion of delaying tactics on the player's part. A couple hours? Nitpicking, I think. I take issue with the content of the post that did turn up, instead. On that note--
Some inaccuracies in your post about me, Rin. Outlined after the quote:
but most of your posts were either further arguments with Maya, or some speculation as to whether scum would want to hammer a townie at the end of D1 or further perpetuate a tie (fairly pointless imho, not to mention so prone to interpretation that it basically falls apart completely). So yeah. A bit more commentary, something on the scale of Maya's post about everyone-that-was-not-you would be nice, thanks. Much appreciated.
A: I haven't been arguing with Maya today. I went out of my way not to argue with Maya today. I made one post quite clearly stating that I was responding to her arguments only because she expressly asked for such, and that it would be the last time I addressed those particular concerns. The only other time I've interacted with her today involved asking a simple question about an unrelated statement she made about Helga.
B: Speculation about scum hammering etc. was explicitly in response to Li doing the same. I was pointing out exactly what you just said--that it's useless and unreliable. Was this not clear? It's equally inaccurate to use this to define "most of my posts." It was a single paragraph.
C: Asking for a wall of text is a decidedly inelegant request. Ask me specific questions about specific people and I'll answer them. Asking me for a grand summary on everyone in the game? Bad form. What you are asking for is a trap. Such a request presents someone with a delicate balancing act that has no real chance of success--it demands too much of one's time to respond to criticisms and provide the requested material. Something is going to be left out, and when that happens you can add it to your case, such as it is.
Points A and B are things that are blatantly clear from my posts, I feel. Did anyone else actually find my meaning uncertain when I made those statements? Please consult them and let me know. Replies 62 and 64. It's difficult for me not to see Rin's use of plain mischaracterizations as anything but an attempt at provocation (attempting to resurrect the sordid day 1 catfight via point A, I think). Coupled with low her presence and parroting day 1, I would be glad to vote for her right now were Leia not so busy inspiring concussions via headdesking.
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Mmf. And yet I find myself typing up my thoughts on everyone anyway. Will be brief and hope people request elaboration where desired; wall of textness just makes this game mind-numbing to read.
-Leia is topic du jour of the moment, yes. Not sure what it would take to move my vote off her right now (and I can imagine a lot). Would have to see evidence that she actually cares before considering it. But all we have right now is some taunting of the "I'm really not trying to inspire WIFOM right now OR AM I?" variety. Awful.
-Rin is who I'd look at next. See day 1, see the above posting.
-Li/Mai/Helga are in the "maybe" pile, in about that order of precedence. I have a variety of issues with each, just nothing as damning as the person my vote's sitting on right now. Bad arguments for Li, Mai has a Helga case that feels somewhat forced, day 1 for Helga along with a somewhat scattershot approach to cases that I otherwise agree with (for the record, I don't think Li deliberately missed out on deadline yesterday; I am willing to bet it simply occurred past his normal hours of consciousness). Can provide examples if desired; am trying to summarize as briefly as possible right now.
-Tanaka/Houlihan/Maya I have nothing solid on right now. Not sold on any one individual's towniness, I just have nothing much to build a case with here. Been a while since we heard from Houlihan, though; raises some minor worries about flying under the radar (which a scum Houlihan could think she'd get away with for a while, as she hasn't accrued much suspicion this game).
Around for a while if people have direct responses.
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I'm not quite as busy as I was at the start of the game, but I am suffering a massive dose of lethargy. The game's activity and such in general, plus getting the reverse of expectations for what I do (concerted scumhunting, well that's just you going crazy, but man, that useless wad of opinions on everyone, that sure is A grade material). And yeah, really very little I can do about my position when next to no one (except maybe Rin?) is buying into it at all, and knowing that this necessarily includes a whole bunch of townies saps me massively.
Yeah, yeah, whine whine whine, woe is me.
If I'm not getting my way then I need to make my secondary case and move well before the deadline. I'm going to assume I'll feel better next time I'm around and wait until then before moving my vote, but for now, quickly, are some raw opinions. You're not going to like them because I don't have the energy to fluff them up properly, but I'd rather have crap now and have you understand where I'm coming from than it coming completely out of the blue when I'm next back.
-I really think that Shaoran isn't scum. The attitude is all wrong and he's been butting opinions and seeing what falls out all over the place. Productive, and I see it as needlessly risky for scum in this situation. Easier and safer to usurp head townie than do that if you want to be active.
-I'm sorry, but I don't think Leia is scum either. Missed a golden opportunity to silence Rin for another day if nothing else. Don't see anyone believing it could work. Stupidly risky at the best of times, but especially in such a massively apathetic game with a clear 3 vote lead. Yeah, attitude's terrible and not helping town regardless (although frankly in her position I don't blame her for not suddenly gaining motivation), but it would be stupid of me to knowingly lynch someone who I think is town, even if bad town.
-I'm super worried about Tanaka being the super-charismatic sort of scum who wins by everyone being in love with him (I do love you, man), but still can't pick anything out of it.
-Rin still gets one more out from me. Maybe I'm just constantly falling into the trap that I pointed out myself, but I think she'd be fine if she just talked more frequently. I'll be seriously disappointed if this continues into day 3, but yeah, honestly I'm willing to give that time to see if she improves rather than sling her down now.
It's the other four I'm looking at. You want pure gut? Pure gut? Tron/Margaret. Tron/Margaret/Mai if we do have the added misfortune of facing three scum instead of two (I do presume two from the way the rules seem to balance, but who can say, it could all be in the role balance and is not worth discussion). But don't ask gut things like that.
-Tron I'll just leave commenting further now. Been there, done that, watched her move in to usurp lead townie, still sure, but the inability to get motion there is why I'm here in the first place.
-Margaret I feel really bad for suspecting so closely because there's little solid to it. I'm largely obsessed with how day one panned out and how it was Margaret who made the jump to end the day, plus a few things like the place holding nature of the vote today. No, I can't get this to tally with some other things, and no I'm not going to push it when my mind still finds it dumb, but here's openness for you.
-Helga just doesn't inspire. Holding onto the Shaoran vote in the face of accepting counter-arguments only to jump ship when Leia shows up and pastes an even bigger target on her than existed in her absence? Seriously weak, very easy scum play to make for a day.
-I'm largely on the same page as Shaoran regarding Mai today. Attitude doesn't ring at all. LAL beyond LAL in a really overly simplistic manner. Think it's largely been put on to scaremonger for this day and next (at least) if scum. It's the sudden huge drive towards Helga at the start of day 2 despite not saying anything to her about it during day 1 as mentioned earlier that pushes me this way.
Okay, not so quick after all. In short, given a lack of Tron I'm almost certainly shifting to either Helga or Mai. I'd say whoever it is who's more likely to go, but like hell am I letting scum get the chance to interfere with that.
Raw, wall of text, gut, fishing hooks, mostly crap, delayed vote. Yeah, getting better every time.
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-I'm sorry, but I don't think Leia is scum either. Missed a golden opportunity to silence Rin for another day if nothing else. Don't see anyone believing it could work. Stupidly risky at the best of times, but especially in such a massively apathetic game with a clear 3 vote lead. Yeah, attitude's terrible and not helping town regardless (although frankly in her position I don't blame her for not suddenly gaining motivation), but it would be stupid of me to knowingly lynch someone who I think is town, even if bad town.
The scenario above is predicated on Rin also being town, which you can't actually know for sure. You are assuming Leia's alignment based on an assumption you've made about someone else's alignment. Yes, a scum Leia could want to prevent a town Rin from talking more, thus making her look worse tomorrow, by self-hammering, and this would seem to support your theory that Leia is town; however, a scum Leia would also want to make sure a scum Rin got some time to talk and shore up her own credibility before the day ended, which would act against your theory. As we don't actually know Rin's alignment, it is pointless to try to use this scenario to discern Leia's alignment either way. It relies on an unknown variable. If there are reasons to give Leia some slack, I don't think this is on the list. If you have other reasons to trust her, please elaborate. You can forgive her for being unmotivated? Very well, I can understand this to some extent. But Leia isn't unmotivated; she's self-destructive and trolling.
You should consider how much your trust of Rin is rooted in the fact that she shares your misgivings about me; I have personally been wondering whether I share a similar blind spot in regards to Helga and Houlihan (on account of their suspicion of Li). Remove that appealing convergence from Rin's posts (her two posts) and see what's left.
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Day 2 Vote Count!
Margeret Houlihan (0): Li Syaoran
Princess Leia (4): Margaret Houlihan, Tron Bonne, Mai Tohika, Helga Pataki
Li Syaoran (1): Helga Pataki, Tanaka
Mai Tohika Tokiha (I've been making that mistake for years apparently) (0): Li Syaoran
Helen Helga Pataki (0): Mai Tohika
Tron Bonne (1): Maya Kumashiro
Tanaka (1): Princess Leia
Rin Tohsaka (1): Li Syaoran
No vote cast: Rin Tohsaka
With 9 alive, 5 votes will lynch. You have about 15 hours left in the day.
Princess Leia is at L-1.
Margaret Houlihan will be prodded for activity as soon as this has been posted.
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Leery at people popping up and going 'well Leia might not be scum because scum would not do what she does, it's too easy!' It is pretty much one of the scummiest things you can do and I certainly shall not be going elsewhere today. Mostly looking at Maya going 'surely Leia would have silenced Rin by dying'. It is a pretty hard thing to gauge; Leia probably expected to die on her own soon enough, she could not be thinking at all, she could be waiting for a buddy to slam her, she could be a lot of things. Tron pretty much nails it by pointing out what she is doing is flagrantly anti-town. Kinda want to see how it all goes down before speculating on teams- but a Leia/Rin one isn't one I think is too likely at this point, for all that I think they're both pretty bad.
Not liking Maya much, this is a situation where I think keeping it simple is better and rooting around for theories on contributors instead of those who, well, aren't seems like it's looking right past the obvious. In her case on Tron here-
Ran around like a headless chicken, very pointedly did not respond to my expanded argument (you know, after having hated the earlier form of it at this point), and for playing daddy's little friendly helper since to blend back in. What's this, you just so happen to agree with two of the cases of the day that were made before you posted? What are the odds! Let's not forget that the actual sum content of what she did after getting all flustered - which I think is at least part of why people aren't voting for her? - was actually no better than most. The very large attitude change to the new sweetness does nothing to dissuade me either.
-doesn't have anything solid in it that is screaming 'SCUMMY TRAITS' to me, so I'm not sure why she's still pursuing it as this juncture and certainly don't think it is more deserving than the many other colourful characters I've singled out today.
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With the forums dying on us for a while, I'm going to tack 8 hours on to the end of the day to make up for the loss.
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OK so.
Rin has posted.
As for mistakes, I'm... not seeing them. Unless you try to claim that Chiaki didn't unvote someone pointlessly without voting for someone else, which either he definetly did on D1, or I'm blind - as that was the main argument behind my case.
My point was that you hastily threw on the 'oh, and Mai is a close second' at the end of that point, without explaining why Mai was second. You do this at the end of a paragraph on empty unvoting - yes, Chiaki was guilty of this, but you accuse Mai of it when she did no such thing. And pointed out as much here. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116928.html#msg116928) And Tanaka had conveniently made the same mistake in an earlier case. Apparently, you buy into this case so much that Mai is your definite second place ahead of Asuka/Tron, and yet you don't actually offer any reasoning for your vote on Mai beyond 'same as Chiaki did but not as bad'. I don't understand why I need to repeat this when I said as much here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117100.html#msg117100) earlier.
Now, let's cut Rin's wall down so everyone can understand what it entails.
- Borrowed points on Leia that have been brought up a dozen times already.
- Case on Margaret which a) takes the inconsistent response point I made at the start of the day (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117030.html#msg117030) and b) goes on to say 'oh but maybe not because clearing a Townie for a bad reason can't be bad'. So, basically waffling.
- A point on Tron which...actually sort of rings with me. After bringing up the fight with Maya, I looked back and found a nice little tidbit (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117115.html#msg117115):
Very much so. I don't believe you're capable of being objective about me any more. It's neither reasonable nor healthy to be as rock-hard convinced about someone day one as you were about me. I have been in your shoes before and recognize all the signs of the obsessed townie. Probably as you're reading this post there's that hot, tense feeling in your chest, elevated heartrate, that screaming rage in your head yelling, "It's plain as day she's scum, why won't anyone else see reason?" This is what's now doing your thinking for you.
I will note the hypocrisy in 'Maya tunneling on me is okay, Li tunneling on Asuka is bad'. Beside the whole 'you are clearly not thinking straight if you are voting for me' attitude that I'm getting here which feels like some sort of Appeal to Common Sense or something.
Of course, Rin never actually bothers to put a vote down on this case, simply saying 'yeah Leia is obvious and needs to dieplz' at the start of her post, but by the end she's shifted to 'I'm not 100% convinced on Leia and I'm not ready to hammer'. She then doesn't bother putting said vote on, uh, any of the other people she suspects. Not even, say, as pressure? Slightly concerned that this is the scum tactic of 'throw out suspicions of buddies without actually placing votes so as to distance without real risk'.
- Finally, you disregard the points made against Mai. 1 - You disregard her earlier stance on Helga, which was screaming GAS THE INACTIVES when Helga had basically said 'I have RL plans, can't comment today'. That was my first problem with her - she immediately took as malice what could have been totally indefensible circumstance.
2 - Then she jumps to Leia, who although her idea was lazy it was at least original. While obviously less preferable, it is a fact that there will be lazy Townies who go for simple cases. On the other hand, Townies have no reason to reword and plagiarise another person's case, which is exactly what you did.
tl;dr I will be around for an hour or two. Still want a Tohsaka/Mai lynch, no real preference as to either so I'll go for whoever I can build a wagon on against Leia (who in comparison seems more likely to be a lazy and pissed-off Townie).
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##Unvote
##Vote: Mai Tokiha
On reflection I'd actually rather see Helga lynched than Mai for the forced positional play today following the absence on day one, but with the downtime making this plausibly my last post of the day I will compromise with the case that might actually bear fruit, which is the intersection of mine and Shaoran's shortlists. You could call this a gamble of scum interference against my previous position on the matter, but time pressures and sufficient measure of trust in Shaoran say otherwise now.
I disagree with the sentiment that it's okay to lynch town if they're acting stupidly if you do think that they are town, and dislike the pre-emptive hand-washing of the matter and pressures of the spin of 'anti-town, must lynch' being presented by Tron and Mai. Sorry, no, if I think someone's town then they're never getting my vote unless there is absolutely no better option, and the insistence that this is the correct course of action reflects badly. I will however cut myself away from Rin's 'too easy' position.
That plus Mai's even bigger:
Not liking Maya much, this is a situation where I think keeping it simple is better and rooting around for theories on contributors instead of those who, well, aren't seems like it's looking right past the obvious.
Hey guys, let's not pay any attention on the people who are talking and line people up in the order of how little they've spoken. Mechanical thinking, mechanical excuses. Turn brain off, let scum win. I'd buy it as the thought process from someone hopelessly dedicated to the rule book, but not from Rat. Not for a minute. And he's been playing this card all day.
(And yes, I really am still primarily about Tron, but the complete lack of agreement there is what's killed my motivation in general and oh it's apparently my problem great and the rest of today has been the compromise)
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Well, that settles it.
##Unvote, Vote: Mai Tokiha
Probably still too late, but hell if I'm not gonna try.
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Oh hey forums are back up, drowsypost time so I don't get yelled at.
Soooo no one's biting on Li eh. Unfortunately I'm not sure what to say outside of that, except vague intent towards hammering Leia when I get up again, for obvious reasons, if the forums are up then, which seems unlikely.
This game is dead in general, there's no activity and what activity there is is mainly people spinning off in wild directions and lots of OMGUS. I suppose I'm as much to blame as anyone due to timing shenanigans, but I keep undergoing a lot of self doubt and paralysis. No one else apparently thinks Li is completely nuts! Leia is incredibly scummy! But maybe also a stupid townie bombing themselves! But if so she's even worse! And also calling me scum for no reason! (or, rather, for "being slimy" which is apparently different from "being too charismatic" which is also scummy what) What do I do! Helga is scummy too! Maya is a thinking townie person but thinks Mai is scum and Mai's my second pick for most townie based on rationality + number of irrational accusations leveled against her! Maya also still hates Tron and that gets into crazy hypocrisy loops! argh (the one thing I am pretty sure on is that loops like that never really go anywhere, I am not inclined to pursue Tron at this time, no)
Okay no. Rin and Helga are still totally superlurky, Rin's megapost notwithstanding as it is still her ONLY real post and winds up with NO VOTE and no decisions.
.... actually I just convinced myself there.
##Unvote: Li
##Vote: Rin
I am aware of the irony of Li being the other Rin voter but more seriously, this is mainly symbolic since I am mostly in favor of hammering Leia, who at this point is I think indistinguishable in terms of being bored lazy scum (come to think it is kind of odd people are pulling off her and not hammer-prone) or lazy cranky townie.
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oh for crying out loud. posted that despite the ninja for posterity. Fine then. Intent to hammer Leia in 15 minutes and drag us out of this morass of a day unless someone gives a good reason not to.
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Day 2 Vote Count!
Margeret Houlihan (0): Li Syaoran
Princess Leia (4): Margaret Houlihan, Tron Bonne, Mai Tokiha, Helga Pataki
Li Syaoran (0): Helga Pataki, Tanaka
Mai Tohika Tokiha (I've been making that mistake for years apparently) (2): Li Syaoran, Maya Kumashiro, Li Syaoran
Helen Helga Pataki (0): Mai Tokiha
Tron Bonne (0): Maya Kumashiro
Tanaka (1): Princess Leia
Rin Tohsaka (1): Li Syaoran, Tanaka
No vote cast: Rin Tohsaka
With 9 alive, 5 votes will lynch. You have less than 4 hours left in the day.
Princess Leia is at L-1.
Margaret Houlihan has been prodded for inactivity. She won't hit 24 hours post-prod today, but my patience will wear thin for the future if she does not post again today. The dere only goes do far.
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##Unvote: Rin
##Vote: Leia
Hammering scummy person who can't be arsed to make non gut cases, day over, going to sleep now. Maya, since I know you're obsessive enough to actually do this: stop spinning in circles and metagaming and analyze Li's behavior and train shifts for tomorrow?
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HAMMER SHUT UP
(like this game needs to be told to shut up)
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Discussion was taking place - as much as a bunch of little wooden figurines can talk about anything - when Princess Leia suddenly threw her hands up into the air.
"That's it. I'm bored. You're all boring. I've had enough. I can think of a million things better to do right now than this. Like KISS MARK HAMILL and then HAVE SEX WITH HARRISON FORD oh wait I can do both of those right now if I want to anyway! In fact I do think I want to. So I will. Bye!"
The rest of the dolls were stunned at the princess' sudden announcement and departure. Stunned to the point that none of them noticed that the back of Leia's head had been carved out until she was out of earshot.
Clearly, she was not the one responsible.
---
Princess Leia (Vanilla Townie) was lynched by majority!
It is now Night 2. Night actions from of whom all I require them, please.
Final Day 2 Vote Count
Margeret Houlihan (0): Li Syaoran
Princess Leia (5): Margaret Houlihan, Tron Bonne, Mai Tokiha, Helga Pataki, Tanaka
Li Syaoran (0): Helga Pataki, Tanaka
Mai Tohika Tokiha (2): Li Syaoran, Maya Kumashiro, Li Syaoran
Helen Helga Pataki (0): Mai Tokiha
Tron Bonne (0): Maya Kumashiro
Tanaka (1): Princess Leia
Rin Tohsaka (0): Li Syaoran, Tanaka
No vote cast: Rin Tohsaka
Unanswered inactivity prod: Margaret Houlihan
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Going to be busy all day from here on out, and all night actions are in, so you guys get an early update. Don't expect this every time from me, though! I'm only doing it because I don't want to hold up the game for my own personal ventures.
(Also no story because I am rushed and have had no chance to do any research sorry sorry sorry to the dead player)
Maya Kumashiro (Vanilla Townie) was killed overnight!
It is now Day 3. With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. From this day forward, no majority = No Lynch.
Since ending a day at 12:30 PM Eastern is lamesauce, you will have 80 hours vote today instead of 72 (like you would have if I had updated when I wanted to). Again, don't expect this every time! It's not like I'm doing this because I like all of you or anything.
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(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5356/helga1.jpg)
I really, really don't like how yesterday ended. There was absolutely no need to rush the lynch, even if you think Mai was the towniest town that ever townied. Tanaka, seriously, what was up with that? Mai was only at two votes. Two quickly gained votes, but two votes all the same. Leia was not looking great, but do you really think the continued discussion was that dangerous to just go ahead and lynch? I can sympathize with wanting to deal with the atrophy in the discussion, but it just doesn't feel like a wholly great move. Care to share your thought process, apart from Leia being scummy?
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6011/helgapatakibyhaclub.jpg)
As for cases today, I love Mai as a suspect.
Leery at people popping up and going 'well Leia might not be scum because scum would not do what she does, it's too easy!' It is pretty much one of the scummiest things you can do and I certainly shall not be going elsewhere today. Mostly looking at Maya going 'surely Leia would have silenced Rin by dying'. It is a pretty hard thing to gauge; Leia probably expected to die on her own soon enough, she could not be thinking at all, she could be waiting for a buddy to slam her, she could be a lot of things. Tron pretty much nails it by pointing out what she is doing is flagrantly anti-town. Kinda want to see how it all goes down before speculating on teams- but a Leia/Rin one isn't one I think is too likely at this point, for all that I think they're both pretty bad.
Not liking Maya much, this is a situation where I think keeping it simple is better and rooting around for theories on contributors instead of those who, well, aren't seems like it's looking right past the obvious. In her case on Tron here-
Ran around like a headless chicken, very pointedly did not respond to my expanded argument (you know, after having hated the earlier form of it at this point), and for playing daddy's little friendly helper since to blend back in. What's this, you just so happen to agree with two of the cases of the day that were made before you posted? What are the odds! Let's not forget that the actual sum content of what she did after getting all flustered - which I think is at least part of why people aren't voting for her? - was actually no better than most. The very large attitude change to the new sweetness does nothing to dissuade me either.
-doesn't have anything solid in it that is screaming 'SCUMMY TRAITS' to me, so I'm not sure why she's still pursuing it as this juncture and certainly don't think it is more deserving than the many other colourful characters I've singled out today.
This quote kinda looks bad in light of both Leia and Maya's town flip. Leia's behavior was pretty bad at the time, but this was a large leap in speculation. It ascribes a level of insidiousness to Leia I don't think was ever there, despite the attitude Leia copped.
In particular, I really agree with this quote from Maya yesterday about Mai.
Hey guys, let's not pay any attention on the people who are talking and line people up in the order of how little they've spoken. Mechanical thinking, mechanical excuses. Turn brain off, let scum win. I'd buy it as the thought process from someone hopelessly dedicated to the rule book, but not from Rat. Not for a minute. And he's been playing this card all day.
I had the same kind of feeling yesterday, when Mai made a big deal about my charge against Li for missing out on sudden death and proposing it might have been on purpose. This was a legitimate thing to at least bring up, though it might not have been as damning as I thought it was. Calling it completely stupid was not constructive at all, and saying Li was around up to that point completely missed mine. Maya showed what good townies do with things like that by at least taking it seriously and offering a legitimate counterpoint, at least.
Was suspicious of her yesterday too, so for now, ##Vote: Mai
I'm also going to give a second look at Maya's case on Tron, since after looking at the voting record, aside from Mai, Tron is the only person that Maya really had a vote on.
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Helga: There were, in fact, less than four hours remaining in the day, and I was going to sleep then. I guess plurality lynch was still in effect but I seriously dislike that and prefer hammering, since I did in fact find Leia scummy. My frustration stemmed more from Li unvoting Rin than voting on Mai - for all that I still think that the case on Mai is silly bordering on dangerous.
Seriously, you're bringing up Maya's attempting to pull a metagame argument on Rat? And a faulty one at that, since, well, Rat IS known as the Hitler of Lurkers for a reason? And LAL IS a good strategy? That was facepalm worthy when Maya did it, and I regret not jumping on her more at the time now but argh so much badness to flip out at. Frankly Mai IS the towniest town to me at this point. TV Tanaka's Scum-O-Meter: 1/10
Others...
- Helga. Lurked early, has gotten better since then, but hasn't done anything that stands out much. I grow increasingly suspicious of the pushes on Mai though. TV Tanaka's Scum-O-Meter: 5/10
- Tron. Has basically done nothing all game but defend herself from one of the Standard Day 1 Trains that Maya kept riding day 2. (Voting Leia yesterday is a null for everyone in my books because argh ragequitting townies). Is perhaps justified in this but I really don't like the wheelspinning in her latest post. TV Tanaka's Scum-O-Meter: 5/10 but waiting to see what she's got today.
- Margaret. Was okay early but where'd she go? TV Tanaka's Scum-O-Meter: Impending Modkill/10??
- Li. Ku-ray-ze train jumping all game which I can't make heads or tails of. I thought it was scummy at first but... I just don't know now. Is anti-Rin at last call which is something I can get behind but is also anti-Mai which is ??? TV Tanaka's Scum-O-Meter: 4/10
- Rin. One post. No votes. Post does nothing except prod a few cases (notably Tron.) TV Tanaka's Scum-O-Meter: 8/10
Possibility: Rin/Tron? Let's look back at day 1 (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg116941.html#msg116941). Uh. And day 2. (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117117.html#msg117117) Uh. I think these interactions look bad, yes.
##Vote: Rin
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Right now I'm really thinking are two scum are among Tron, Rin and Mai. Tron is flaring up after Maya's death, but besides that I can come up with good ways to quantify the Tron/Rin and Rin/Mai pairings - namely, the Tron/Rin interaction here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117205.html#msg117205) and (as I've mentioned several times already) the way that Mai tip-toed conveniently around Rin's lurking charges. Tron/Mai doesn't look as viable as the other two options.
The only real issue I'm seeing with this idea is The Amazing Disappearing Margaret. She was solid enough Day 1, save her 'oh hey Asuka is clear because uh' point, but for D2 about her only contribution that I can recall off the top of my head was 'Helga, Li, talk about Tohsaka'. After that, she sort of...vanished, with her vote still lying on Leia for the rest of the day. It's not enough to really put her ahead of the Rimination (fun with fake anagrams!) at the moment, especially since she's probably going to get modkilled at this rate, but if she gives some last-minute crap post to avoid the kill then I'll really be giving her some serious consideration.
Since she appears in both the scumpairs I'm currently seeing, and in her two contributing posts all game has said almost nothing original (and what is original is ignored in favour of dieplzleia), ##Vote: Rin (L-2) for now. Seriously, if you have time to construct a wall like that, you have time to produce points that aren't recycled. Or press on your Tron case and convince me it's better than the case on you. Anything. Just stop copying people.
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Hm. Somehow we're not in LYLO (rules post states LYLO day would have no time limit) which means two scum. Unexpected for a game this size. Does make me comfortable enough to go ahead and do this, however:
##Vote: Rin
This puts her at -1 to lynch. Early in the day for it, I know, but I don't mind given how bad she looks. To wit:
One notable post on each of the previous days. Significant amount of parroted content in them. Any content in the one case she tried to push yesterday (against me) that wasn't nabbed from Maya consisted of demonstrably false statements. I really must direct anyone looking at her case towards replies 82 and 83 in the thread. I feel the fact that she blatantly ignores content within the same posts of mine that she cites in order to make it appear as though I was making a completely contradictory statement is a shining hallmark of fabricated cases. This isn't a question of interpretation; she flat out says my posts mean the opposite of what's typed there for all to see. She also never replied when I refuted these points, despite saying she was going to be around and provide more observations.
Textbook lurkscum trying to look productive. I am aware that similar statements were made about Leia yesterday (well, minus the attempt to look productive) and feel that this makes no difference. It says more about this being the laziest town ever than anything else. This also stands out on a reread:
The only person I still can't really make sense of right now is Helga, but let me get this out first before I land on the business end of a sword... or worse. More in my next post.
Why was Rin worried about dying there? It's a strange comment to make. There was talk from plenty of people about suspecting her at that time, but she clearly wasn't on the block (Leia was near getting lynched at the time and doing nothing to stop it). So why the avowed concern? It's just special pleading. "I'm worried about getting killed, so I must be a townie." Actual townies don't need to make comments like this.
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Reading new posts now. WIFOM incoming, watch your head:
Right now I'm really thinking are two scum are among Tron, Rin and Mai. Tron is flaring up after Maya's death, but besides that I can come up with good ways to quantify the Tron/Rin and Rin/Mai pairings - namely, the Tron/Rin interaction here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117205.html#msg117205) and (as I've mentioned several times already) the way that Mai tip-toed conveniently around Rin's lurking charges. Tron/Mai doesn't look as viable as the other two options.
Bolded statement is awful reasoning, Li, and the sort of comment that's had me looking at you all game (I am increasingly thinking that it's more bad reasoning than ill intent just because it's so consistent; a backhanded compliment, I'm aware, but you're just uncoordinated in a way that says clueless town more than flailing scum). Speculating on why scum killed who they killed is worse than pointless. It's completely unreliable and only propagates the kind of confusion they like.
I also fail to understand what about my exchange with Rin says anything to you about us being a scumteam. I looked back at the post you linked and you really don't go into that possibility at all there. Actually, you mostly just nod your head at Rin's case, your only misgiving being that she doesn't couple it with a vote. Do you have an actual explanation here?
I've probably said this before, but I think it's bad play to speculate on scumteams when we don't have any flipped scum. You can speculate on multiple individuals being scum, yes, but using one person of unconfirmed alignment to clear or condemn another person of unconfirmed alignment is a circlejerk of assumptions. There's just not enough information to speculate productively on it and it leaves someone groping in the dark. Or scum trying very hard to look like a perceptive townie. Which makes me want to take a closer look at Tanaka since he's doing it too.
Tanaka, I pose to you the same question I just asked Li: what about my interactions with Rin says anything to you? In your last post, you pick a couple stray messages and say these "look bad." This is uselessly vague. What about them looks bad? You give us two posts in a vacuum and act as though it means something obvious. I want examples and reasons. Until then, it's not much of an argument. Possibly just slinging mud.
~
So I'm obviously sticking to Rin as number one suspect right now. Houlihan looks terrible for disappearing but is pointless to pursue while mod action seems possible. Li is increasingly difficult not to see as an illogical and easily led townie (sorry man, I call it like I see it). This leaves me with the possibility that someone's been slipping under my radar. Mai, Tanaka or Helga. Am going to do some rereading and consider which of the three looks most likely.
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Last I spoke with General Margatroid, I wasn't in any real danger. As things stand, I was suddenly called into the operating room for the last day or so of the last day. Still trying to catch up on a few things.
On that note, I was targetted by a role blocker last night. And I have reason to suspect that it was a Chinese roleblocker.
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After some rereading, I can't find any compelling reason to suspect Mai right now (except that Rat's alive on day three. This is a joke Rat don't hate me). The occasional statement twigged as being disagreeable, but I can't fault the fundamental arguments she's been making.
Out of the trio I wanted to look at, Helga stands out the most. The first bad thing I see is right on this page:
In particular, I really agree with this quote from Maya yesterday about Mai.
Hey guys, let's not pay any attention on the people who are talking and line people up in the order of how little they've spoken. Mechanical thinking, mechanical excuses. Turn brain off, let scum win. I'd buy it as the thought process from someone hopelessly dedicated to the rule book, but not from Rat. Not for a minute. And he's been playing this card all day.
I had the same kind of feeling yesterday, when Mai made a big deal about my charge against Li for missing out on sudden death and proposing it might have been on purpose. This was a legitimate thing to at least bring up, though it might not have been as damning as I thought it was. Calling it completely stupid was not constructive at all, and saying Li was around up to that point completely missed mine. Maya showed what good townies do with things like that by at least taking it seriously and offering a legitimate counterpoint, at least.
I really don't like how Helga takes up the mantle of the slain townie to support her cause. It's cheap and honestly looks a little slimy to me. She's also seconding metagaming, which I deplore. I can't properly express how dreadful this game becomes when it's turned into "Person X must be Y alignment because otherwise they wouldn't say Z," but that's basically what Helga's agreeing with here. Metagaming alone isn't reason to declare someone scum, no, but it's in the company of other problems here. For example, it's a mischaracterization to boil down Mai's entire game to LAL. It's been a significant part of Mai's reasoning for votes, yes, but it's always been coupled with notes on behavioral quirks and bad arguments, and I think it disingenuous to ignore that. I'm also really not sure what she's getting at with that big Mai quote she included in her last post. Mai wasn't reading that much into Leia's actions but rather, it seemed to me, advising against doing just that.
I've seen this kind of thing crop up in her posts a couple times (notably stating that Li deliberately avoided day 1 deadline when we have no way to prove this and it would've been more advantageous for scum Li to be there) and fallen into the habit of ignoring them because there was usually enough there that I did agree with to give her a pass, but it does look worse the more often it happens.
Still don't have much to pin on Tanaka. There's the nagging suspicion that his posts say a lot of things that have already been said by others and it's just been easy to overlook this because he's so entertaining, but it's hard to substantiate this since he has at least generally given good reasons to go after the people he has. Just a little uneasy here. Still looks better than Helga, though.
Rin > Helga > Tanaka = Li > Mai for suspicion right now, then. Not sure what to think about Houlihan.
...Oh hey, ninja'd by Houlihan after all. Dunno what to say about that; such an admission begs more questions which it may be best not to ask. So I'll just ask for thoughts on the current situation and the surviving players.
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That's a fair request, especially since everyone else seems to be doing it.
Rin, I agree looks bad right now. She's been doing the bare minimum to get by, and hasn't been engaging in conversation. Several of her points are also waffling, stating something right before she counters her own points, leading to making it look like she's involved when she comes out of it having said nothing at all. We may be trying to dig out the truth, but we're no reporters to be trying to be fair and balanced and get every side of the issue. I'm not going to be voting for her right now, but I'd be comfortable in leaving a vote on her.
Tanaka, generally looks good. But I'm not sure I like his recent posts tying Rin and Tron together. I took a look at them, and while Rin did spend an inordinate amount of time talking about Sgt. Bonne and saying nothing, this read more as an attempt to say nothing about the major topic of the day, which Sgt. Bonne was. If it had been about someone random, then I'd be more inclined to agree.
Private Li, also generally looks good, and while he may have had some bad cases, has been very useful in his search. In fact, since Radar left, we've had to make due with that freak, Klinger. Maybe you'd like to enlist and take the position?
Bonne... neutral read at the moment. Can't see where the connections between her and Rin are coming in. At this point, my suspicions of her are as much to keep options open as anything else.
Helga and Mai, I haven't seen anything overly suspicious from either of them, but then, I'm having a hard time bringing either of their stances (besides Mai's LAL stance) to mind. Which means I'm not comfortable saying anything about them at present. Worried about Mai though.
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Will vote for Rin later barring shocking revelations. Don't even need to really think about this, and it's all been said anyway.
I gotta agree with Margaret on the weirdness of Tanaka tying Tron and Rin together though. I didn't even really understand Maya's case on Tron at all in the first place, and I did try, not sure what it is presently. Worst I can say about her right now is that she's kinda defensive, and it's hard not to roll my eyes at that being enough to go after her.
Also, I have no idea how Rin could really be linked to anyone, either. She just hasn't done enough, and while I can get behind looking at scumpairs at this stage of the game, it's more picking the two individually scummiest players rather than looking for links, I think. Game's too dead. Too many people were quiet at different times. But yeah Tanaka isn't looking so good to me after that last post, there is no case on Tron that I can see.
I'm divided on Margaret for the moment and it's late enough in the game that asking this won't really hurt us, why do you think Rin is a roleblocker, specifically? Quantify your statement, please.
Don't like Helga for invoking the old 'but the people who just died were town and you didn't like them!' sentiment. I really hated this, too-
Leia's behavior was pretty bad at the time, but this was a large leap in speculation. It ascribes a level of insidiousness to Leia I don't think was ever there, despite the attitude Leia copped.
Well obviously it wasn't there since she was town, but come on, by all appearances she was horribly lurky and scummy and I'd just been addressing how her actions could make sense from a scum point of view in response to Maya telling me they didn't at all! Hell, read the whole statement-
It is a pretty hard thing to gauge; Leia probably expected to die on her own soon enough, she could not be thinking at all, she could be waiting for a buddy to slam her, she could be a lot of things. Tron pretty much nails it by pointing out what she is doing is flagrantly anti-town.
What is ascribing an unusual level of insidiousness, here?
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Pretty tired over here, but...I guess you guys could use a vote count. No, it's no trouble at all, really!
Mai Tokiha (1): Helga Pataki
Rin Tohsaka (3): Tanaka, Li Syaoran, Tron Bonne
No vote: Mai Tokiha, Margaret Houlihan, Rin Tohsaka
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. You have about 66 hours remaining.
Rin Tohsaka is at L-1!
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Bolded statement is awful reasoning, Li, and the sort of comment that's had me looking at you all game (I am increasingly thinking that it's more bad reasoning than ill intent just because it's so consistent; a backhanded compliment, I'm aware, but you're just uncoordinated in a way that says clueless town more than flailing scum). Speculating on why scum killed who they killed is worse than pointless. It's completely unreliable and only propagates the kind of confusion they like.
You realise that there's a reason I'm not going 'HOLY SHIT MAYA DIED TRON IS OBVSCUM', right? My vote is sitting on the player who I feel is scummiest, regardless of teams.
I also fail to understand what about my exchange with Rin says anything to you about us being a scumteam. I looked back at the post you linked and you really don't go into that possibility at all there. Actually, you mostly just nod your head at Rin's case, your only misgiving being that she doesn't couple it with a vote. Do you have an actual explanation here?
Rin's only unique, original contribution was the point she made against you. It's actually the first solid and genuine point I've seen her produce all game, but she then proceeds to not follow up on it. Never mind the fact that both days you've been lingering safely in third place or so when she declares her suspects.
Helga I am reconsidering now she's been brought up. She disappeared yesterday a la Margaret, but I think I let her off lighter than I should have because she went along with the Mai case. Again, if she's working with anyone it's probably Tohsaka, given that she had ample time to consider both cases last night, and went for Mai with both all three barrels. It doesn't help that looking back in her posts, the only references Helga ever makes to Rin are a few 'post more' prods which are honestly worthless.
Also, there's this:
Tohsaka: We seem to agree at the very least that Li's A/B theories about Houllihan were offbase. You are working with slightly more info (Li's quick-flip to Mai afterwards), but we came to the same conclusion. Leaving out what I said about Mai, what exactly about my post is non-sensical?
...
On Rin: Her one post of the day had more content than Leia, Mai and others. However, it's inexcusable that she hasn't shown up since so you can't really count it in her favor. Seriously. Post more.
Either this was a typo on Helga's part, or she's giving Rin credit for a point she, uh, never made.
The whole buddy thing is starting to look a lot more vague now, admittedly, but Rin is still definitely my first suspect. Tanaka I don't feel bad about right now, Margaret even more so now that she's re-emerged. Only concern is that 2 scum in an 11-player game raises the possibility of third-party, but for now I'm sticking with Tohsaka.
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Tron/Margaret/etc: I was referring back to Tron's last post on day 2, which contained a lot of what I would call wheel spinning regarding "well we don't know if Rin is town" without really saying much. I read back further, and in those posts I linked, both Rin and Tron talk about each other more than I think would be usual at that point in the game, without actually saying anything of substance about each other. I think this is possibly scummy interaction. As noted, speculation on interactions like that is premature and really doesn't mean much without a flip, in regards to Tron, BUT the point I was trying to make is that at the very least it doesn't help Rin in my eyes at all because it's one of the few significant interactions there have been with her *at all*, either way, and it's at the very least weird and not scumhunty.
Busy now, more later, Margaret just to be clear here is that Chinese part flavor or are you actually specifically accusing Li of roleblocking you? If so can you elaborate on why? (or is Li even Chinese?)
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Right, I forgot that somehow, we have two Chinese people in on this UN Expedition to fight North Korea and their Chinese allies. I have no clue who it might have been, just that I have reason to believe this power will belong to our enemies.
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Less busy, more tired, and honestly forgot what else I was going to post this afternoon, except a paranoia Li analysis on Marge's accusation but apparently that was flavor after all.
... and there's been no other posts since then? This is not the way to succeed in the world of business.
Oh yeah, third party speculation. Is... silly because if there is one I don't think they're findable with the level of activity this game's had.
Rin is the only thing I'm pretty sure about now, I really don't like Mai's attitude here, +2-3 points on the Scum-o-Meter. A little too cavalier perhaps? Then again I can't blame her for being cavalier about Rin since other speculation at this point is "spin the bottle for Rin's buddy" which is getting ahead of ourselves, or "oh god what if it's not Rin" in which case... again I'm not sure what to say because Rin trumps any other sort of pairing I can think of. Someone will probably say it's unhealthy that I'm thinking in terms of pairings already but you know, I don't really think it is, I think we need to be thinking that way at this point.
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Tanakastuff.
Tron/Margaret/etc: I was referring back to Tron's last post on day 2, which contained a lot of what I would call wheel spinning regarding "well we don't know if Rin is town" without really saying much.
You fail to acknowledge context. The post existed to point out the flaws of an assumption Maya was making, flawed arguments being used in the defense of someone I found scummy. When I see nonsense I feel obligated to refute it, although perhaps I should stop since the net result seems to be people characterizing me by arguments I'm actually disagreeing with.
I read back further, and in those posts I linked, both Rin and Tron talk about each other more than I think would be usual at that point in the game, without actually saying anything of substance about each other. I think this is possibly scummy interaction. As noted, speculation on interactions like that is premature and really doesn't mean much without a flip, in regards to Tron, BUT the point I was trying to make is that at the very least it doesn't help Rin in my eyes at all because it's one of the few significant interactions there have been with her *at all*, either way, and it's at the very least weird and not scumhunty.
There's a lot of weasely language in here. The first sentence really doesn't mean anything--I'm forced to wonder, what precisely is the standard amount of talking two players can do about each other during this vaguely specified point in the game before it looks odd? And "possibly scummy interaction" looks like wafflese to me. Is it, or isn't it? I have made a case against Rin that I believe to be substantial (as much as it can be given her limited material), citing specific arguments of hers that I feel to be forced and referring back to them later. If you've missed all that then I can only respond with questions marks.
Tanakaninja! Agreement on killing third-party speculation; won't get us anywhere right now. Not really seeing your problem with Mai today. It's not like "Kill Rin!" is the only thing she said.
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what precisely is the standard amount of talking two players can do about each other during this vaguely specified point in the game before it looks odd?
When one of the players makes all of two contentful posts all game, and doesn't vote or take any stance with their post on day 2? Any amount.
I'm being waffly because I honestly don't know because this game is so dang silent and there doesn't seem to be anything else I *can* do except wait for Rin to flip scum or spin more random theories. Very frustrating, feels like I should just shut up and wait for the day to end again and then maybe people will start playing with a scum flip (or god forbid LYLO) but that's just... argh.
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I'd be more curious about Tanaka if I weren't coming to agree. The question of Rin does need to be addressed. Especially since she has this amazing ability to show up just before getting modkilled each and every day.
Private Pataki, is there any reason why you feel that Corporal Tohika's concerns over Maya are especially damning? We have had two days where the primary case has been on people we now know to be good loyal Americans (in their hearts, if not their Birth Certificates)? In fact, we now know that three of the people in that five man pile up on the first day were innocent. Which means that being wrong is, sadly, something at least a few Americans have done.
Anyways, I will wait for that answer and go over some some more dossiers. However, unless someone else can think of something else to say, I think it's agreed that Rin will be the target for today, and we may as well not waste time if all we'll be doing with it is waiting.
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Rin Tohsaka has been prodded for inactivity.
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Ugh.
I am inclined to say this shouldn't change our course of action today, though. Rin could be having RL problems; Rin could also have decided to just not come back after seeing three votes against her early in the day. We don't know. What we do know are the standing charges against her. Those haven't changed.
Logistically speaking, modkilled Rin + us lynching someone else today is also very risky for us. If we're wrong about both (though I think that unlikely in Rin's case) then we potentially lose the game overnight (one lynched townie, one modkilled townie, one nightkilled townie = two town and two scum left. This is autowin in scum's favor). We functionally do buy some time by preventing modkill (I mean, we could just let the modkill happen and also just let the day end, but I hate No Lynch days on principle). I'd rather ensure we have that extra day with the benefit of another flip to provide new information, because this day sure doesn't seem to be producing much more of it. Really agreeing with Tanaka/Houlihan's impulse to end it.
Obviously suggest giving the modprodded player time to show up as a matter of courtesy, but if that doesn't happen in a reasonable span of time then I support lynching her before the modkill kicks in. I'm skeptical that we'll accomplish anything else today anyway. I already have my vote down, at any rate, so checking out for a while.
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Yeah I'm not too interested in just letting the day drag out or having modkills happen, both on principal and er they could just lead to us outright losing. I'd rather just lynch her and be done with it, and I can see no point to not just doing it right now, it is clear nobody is arguing against it or seriously for any other case today. Except Helga on me, yeah I think we can disregard that one.
##Vote: Rin
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HAMMER SHUT UP
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Well I was going to write story but on second thought since Rin's player was apparently tsun-tsun for posting I'll be tsun-tsun for flavor in her direction.
Rin Tohsaka (Town Miller) was lynched by majority!
It is now Night 3. Night actions from all I require them of, please.
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A toy United States medical supply plane was shot down over the Misty Lake, near the Scarlet Devil Mansion.
It just came in.
There were no survivors.
Margaret Houlihan (Town Jailer) was killed overnight!
It is now Day 4. With 5 alive, it takes 3 votes to lynch. You are in LYLO. There is no time limit.
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Mrrrrghl. Why do you people sign up if you're not going to play. Frustration. Here's where I'm standing right now, anyway.
Helga: Our best bet to nab scum at this point. Day 1 disappearing act, various forced arguments throughout the game, made one post yesterday and then vanished (and there were more then twenty-four hours worth of game-time leading up to the lynch). This leaves the bulk of her content on day 2, where she mostly focused on cases other people ultimately didn't follow (Mai, Li).
Tanaka: Has been on every mislynch of the game. He's been a constant presence but, outside of Chiaki day 1, I find it hard to remember cases he's pushed for really strongly. I mean, there's Rin, who Tanaka came out voting for first on day 3, but Rin was getting flak throughout day 2 and Tanaka was kind of late to that party. Over the course of day 3 he expressed doubts about Li, Mai, Helga, and myself as though laying groundwork for whichever case would be most advantageous today. High presence cheerleader act pushes him above Li/Mai.
Speculation: Helga/Tanaka scumpair? Neither has ever subjected the other to much scrutiny. Every now and then they've highlighted something they didn't like in one of the other's posts, but they've never really pressed it or followed it up with a vote. They've also both stated, at varying times, that they're not sure they trust those Li/Mai blokes, without ever really acknowledging that the other is making similar points (Tanaka does call Helga on a bit of metagaming she uses against Mai, but he escalates his own suspicion of Mai shortly thereafter). Scum hivemind in action with a veneer of conflict?
Li: Kind of hard to consider as anything but a hapless townie by this point. If he's pulling the I, Claudius act, it's a good one. I'm wondering now if Helga and Tanaka's votes for him early day 2 was a train attempt that didn't pick up steam and was abandoned in favor of Leia when she became the center of attention.
Mai: Has mostly made sensible arguments, I feel, so it's hard for me to find any cracks here. I am open to compelling counterarguments, just haven't seen any thus far (Helga's wound up having too many flaws that led me to view it as an artificial case; Tanaka just made brief mention of some gut suspicion yesterday).
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Oh yeah, if people have player guesses, now would be a good time to submit them. I'm actually keeping track this time!
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I...am not sure how to respond to Rin flipping town. I am...not sure if it's a good idea to reveal the players when we're done here, because there may or may not be an angry mob ready to strike them down.
OK, so my buddy ideas pretty much all involved Rin so they're out the freaking window. We're down to:
- Helga: The infamous 'screw this, I'm not playing D1'. Looks for any excuse to hold onto the Li case - when people point out that it'd be a stupid idea for me to not be around when I was up for sudden death she still said 'yeah, his disappearance was purposeful! Even if he had no reason to do it and it only meant he could have been lynched no problem!'
Besides that, she's shown an impressive ability to be on all the big wagons post D2. First she tries to continue the Li wagon from the day before, then switches to Leia, and then tries to pick up the Mai case on D3. This is noteworthy in that she didn't start any of these cases, save possibly the Li case which she held to until Leia became the center of attention.
Tanaka: I am disturbed by the fact I need to look back through Tanaka's posts in order to remember some of his stances. There are times he's been just about invisible to me.
'k, so. D1 EMPTY UNVOTING CHIAKI IS THE DEVIL, I'm willing to see as 'oh god we have nothing to work with at all just find anything'. Mai typo doesn't seem to have any ill intent, and her vote was hard to see, so I assume it was a mistake. Null tell.
After that, there's a few points I was considering bringing up but didn't see the point in given my belief in a Rin/Someone pair.
Leia is incredibly scummy! But maybe also a stupid townie bombing themselves! But if so she's even worse! And also calling me scum for no reason! (or, rather, for "being slimy" which is apparently different from "being too charismatic" which is also scummy what) What do I do!
"Hey there! Don't mind me! I'm just covering my bases so I can say I was suspicious of Leia but also disapprove of what will turn out to be a Townie lynch!"
If we're considering the Helga/Tanaka pair, they've interacted with each other a few times thus far: Tanaka called her D2 post nonsensical (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117080.html#msg117080) before, uh, voting for the same person she did, points out AGAIN that he dislikes Helga here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117214.html#msg117214) but votes for Rin instead, and by D3 has decided that there are better targets and Helga is behind Rin (and conveniently tied with Tron whose score could rise at any time). (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117263.html#msg117263)
As for Helga to Tanaka, first I assume he was the misnamed Tohsaka in this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117127.html#msg117127). No answer was given by Tanaka, no 'crap wrong name' from Helga, making this look like a by-the-motions effort to accuse a buddy. Plus she calls him out for the D2 hammer (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117261.html#msg117261) saying 'WHY DID YOU LYNCH LEIA MAI WAS ONLY AT TWO VOTES oh by the way vote mai', when really there wasn't much chance of a non-Leia lynch happening anyway. No-one would have held it against him, so it feels forced.
Sort of rushed now, but last two.
Tron: The only real problem I have with Tron at this point is that she gave Maya that 'you're tunneline me, stop it' argument which feels like an Appeal to Authority or something along those lines. "I know what you're thinking, but you're wrong and I'm definitely Town, so trust me" does not a Townie argument make. Besides that, I don't feel like I can pair her with any of the living players as a buddy accurately, definitely not as well as the Helga/Tanaka pair fits together.
Mai: HEIL DAT MAIDENKAMPF aside, has been on Helga pretty hard all game, and now that my JEWISH TUNNELING rage-glasses have been taken off I was probably trying too hard to look clever with the Mai case. She hasn't really done much to piss me off beyond her 'screw potential RL explanations, Helga is scum', so I think I'm willing to turn away from her now.
So yeah, honestly willing to go for a Helga-Tanaka scumpair in light of Rin being, uh, not scum. I'm still sort of mad at that, to be honest. Leia was bad enough, but two lurking Townies who don't care enough to post? Really?
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Helga- agreed on best bet for scum. Her case on me yesterday was based on my case on Leia the day before, and really her whole spiel on it seemed somewhat hypocritical; everything I said was related to Leia's position as a lurker and her nitpicking over my presentation of that seems like as much an attempt to distance herself from the case by pushing the responsibility onto me. In general she has not shown herself much and when she does show up she tends to skirt around providing her own content; see day 2 ('you guys should watch Mai!'), day 3 (retreading Maya's faulty ground)...
Tron I think at this point is pretty damn townie. I didn't get the case on her from Maya at all, and can't actually put it down to anything but a townie being very stubborn. When it came to laying out cases on Leia and Rin it was also clear she was actually going through it, as seen in her replies when questioned.
Li and Tanaka are where it gets hazy. Overall my impression is that Li's been around more than Tanaka, and his style seems to be one of 'virulent rage' which does usually seem a bit more honest to me. Don't like how he was on me at the end of day 2; I was kinda wondering if he was allied with one lurker or the other and trying to push LAL-style lynches elsewhere, but that's kinda moot now. I'm pretty sure she had more complaints listed against me than how I derided the so-called RL circumstances though, that seems rather forgetful.
Tanaka I'm only rereading now because I seriously had no idea either way. Logic/content wise, I don't like his list yesterday where he rates Tron alongside Helga, she was essentially forced to reply to Maya and calling her too defensive there doesn't sit right with me at that stage of the game, especially since I kinda agree Maya was being ridiculously stubborn then. I also have this feel that he's been rather theatric in his rantings on the state of the game, particularly when talking about how he doesn't know what to do, don't like trying to quantify scumminess on some arbitrary rating thing.
So at the moment I'm pretty much for Helga, and on the fence as far as Li and Tanaka go. I think I like Li slightly more mostly on the basis of presence and a generally honest feeling from him (it's not like I haven't seen townie rage like that before, so). Tanaka's theatrics, on the other hand, are more woe-is-us oriented rather than dammit-where-are-you-scum oriented.
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(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/5076/helgapatakiasbeatrice.png)
I can easily say this is my worst game ever, and I definitely should have given a second thought to joining the game on my schedule, but now isn't the time to get emo or make excuses. Lets see if I can't work some magic.
I've been giving this a lot of thought, but I'm more convinced than ever in this line of reasoning. I've hesitated on it, but it follows something I think people have kind of been missing:
Lurking is not scum's only strategy.
If all scum are active, LAL becomes one of their best options.
Scum can make completely reasonable and legitimate arguments too, especially when it's following as simple a logic and hallowed Mafia rule as LAL.
With Houllihan gone, that leaves myself as the only person who's generally been considered a lurker left in the game. Since I know I'm not scum, I know it has to be one of the active people. Who has been pushing LAL the hardest? Well, obvious answer there is Mai. In this situation, who benefits the most from LAL? Scum. The utter confidence always present in Mai's tone belies the results she's achieved so far. Are their methods sound? Yes. So apart from bad/unlucky play, what else can you really attribute it to at this point? She's targeting townies on purpose, since she's scum. That said, I don't know what to make of her Day 1 vote, but considering how long before the clusterfuck happened she laid it, it could be anything so I can't really hold it over her one way or another. Just adding again that she did leave for the rest of the day.
Pretty much been directing town all game. This first post from Day 2 wails on me for a bit, then demands to know why I hadn't considered Leia as a lurker poster, setting her next post: where she jumps easily onto the LAL case for Leia.
As for a partner, leaning Tanaka. An inactive town allows scum to end the day in the interest of promoting discussion the next day. I can't fault the reasoning, but Tanaka ending the day when he did while things were starting to swing towards Mai didn't sit well with me. Mai did the same thing yesterday, but things were more cut and dry, and I can't fault the reasoning on that one. However, given the results I have to consider this.
I haven't really been able to get a solid handle on Li since I dropped my case on him Day 2. (And yes, Li, you're right in that it was supposed to be Tanaka instead of Tohsaka in that post. Got them confused). The only thing I can say is about the last post he made... YOU were one of those two votes on Mai at the time Tanaka hammered. If you think that Leia was a forgone conclusion at that point and thought she was a better lynch than Leia at the time... why weren't YOU more concerned about the timing of Tanaka's hammer, especially when Maya had ALSO just voted Mai before you and there WAS momentum shifting? This makes your own accusation:
No answer was given by Tanaka, no 'crap wrong name' from Helga, making this look like a by-the-motions effort to accuse a buddy. Plus she calls him out for the D2 hammer (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5384.msg117261.html#msg117261) saying 'WHY DID YOU LYNCH LEIA MAI WAS ONLY AT TWO VOTES oh by the way vote mai', when really there wasn't much chance of a non-Leia lynch happening anyway. No-one would have held it against him, so it feels forced.
look bad for YOU, not me. Why vote if you don't care? Why not cast the hammer yourself if you're not going to be concerned with how it ends? On second thought, he's starting to rise over Tanaka...
Tron... I can't say anything bad about. I DID go over Maya's case on her like I said I would (which I still maintain is just doing your duty as a townie), but I agree that Maya was offbase on it.
Mai >> Li >= Tanaka >>> Tron for me at the moment.
Forgive the bad link tags in the Mai case. I forgot how to do the url links.
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Mai did the same thing yesterday, but things were more cut and dry, and I can't fault the reasoning on that one.
Crap, this should read: "Mai did the same thing yesterday, but it was more cut and dry since there was literally no activity at all (voting or otherwise), and I can't fault the reasoning for that one."
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The only thing I can say is about the last post he made... YOU were one of those two votes on Mai at the time Tanaka hammered. If you think that Leia was a forgone conclusion at that point and thought she was a better lynch than Leia at the time... why weren't YOU more concerned about the timing of Tanaka's hammer, especially when Maya had ALSO just voted Mai before you and there WAS momentum shifting?
Because momentum WASN'T shifting. There were, uh, two people who wanted a Mai lynch. You and Margaret (who weren't around to change your votes AT ALL coming up to deadline) still had votes lying on Leia. Leia wasn't around to pass along a vote, Tanaka had said that he found Mai incredibly Townie, Tron said that Leia had basically given her no choice but to vote her, and Rin was nowhere as usual but had expressed the same desire to lynch Leia as just about everyone else. I knew full well that voting Mai had a near-zero chance of actually changing the lynch so late in the day, but that wasn't enough of a reason to not make an effort.
I said myself at the time:
Probably still too late, but hell if I'm not gonna try.
And honestly, in response to your case, Helga? If all the lurkers are Town, then Town deserves to lose.
Also, you get mad at Carth for jumping onto Leia. Even though, uh, you proceeded to go along with said lynch. You can't say he's bad for leading a lynch which you supported - that's having your cake and eating it.
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The only thing I can say is about the last post he made... YOU were one of those two votes on Mai at the time Tanaka hammered. If you think that Leia was a forgone conclusion at that point and thought she was a better lynch than Leia at the time... why weren't YOU more concerned about the timing of Tanaka's hammer, especially when Maya had ALSO just voted Mai before you and there WAS momentum shifting?
Because momentum WASN'T shifting. There were, uh, two people who wanted a Mai lynch. You and Margaret (who weren't around to change your votes AT ALL coming up to deadline) still had votes lying on Leia. Leia wasn't around to pass along a vote, Tanaka had said that he found Mai incredibly Townie, Tron said that Leia had basically given her no choice but to vote her, and Rin was nowhere as usual but had expressed the same desire to lynch Leia as just about everyone else. I knew full well that voting Mai had a near-zero chance of actually changing the lynch so late in the day, but that wasn't enough of a reason to not make an effort.
I said myself at the time:
Probably still too late, but hell if I'm not gonna try.
Okay then, so you cared. I still don't see why you hold that against me that I would ask Tanaka for an explanation, especially in light of your "reason enough to make an effort" towards a Mai lynch.
And honestly, in response to your case, Helga? If all the lurkers are Town, then Town deserves to lose.
Also, you get mad at Carth for jumping onto Leia. Even though, uh, you proceeded to go along with said lynch. You can't say he's bad for leading a lynch which you supported - that's having your cake and eating it.
Yes. I'm not going to play it down or say something like "I intended to move my vote" or anything. However, if I think I see something scummy, I'm going to call it, regardless of whether or not I'm guilty of it as well. It does townies no good to not mention points against other people that they themselves are guilty of. Does it affect how people view said case? Maybe. But it's untownie behavior not to mention potential scum behavior, and it's untownie behavior to say that people shouldn't call it how they see it.
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/355/helgapataky.jpg)
I don't agree with your statement about town deserving to lose at all. Yes, all lurkers being town is bad. However, it's the ones who DO win that are the ones who deserved to win. Everything else is just jerking off and backpatting to make yourself feel better. Scum hasn't won yet, so if you are town, don't say defeatist crap like that.
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Okay then, so you cared. I still don't see why you hold that against me that I would ask Tanaka for an explanation, especially in light of your "reason enough to make an effort" towards a Mai lynch.
Because, uh. What is there to explain?
There were about 3 hours left. No-one was around. Leia was nowhere to offer a defense. Ending it early in those circumstances was the most minor of minor offenses, there was an agreement among most that Leia had to be lynched anyway and Tanaka sealed the deal with only a few hours left. It's the fact you get mad at him for it (but then jump conveniently away to Mai when it comes to ACTUAL suspicion) that feels like by-the-motion scum distancing.
I don't agree with your statement about town deserving to lose at all. Yes, all lurkers being town is bad. However, it's the ones who DO win that are the ones who deserved to win. Everything else is just jerking off and backpatting to make yourself feel better. Scum hasn't won yet, so if you are town, don't say defeatist crap like that.
It was as a response to your 'Oh but maybe all the lurkers are Town we'd better start accusing the active players who tried to lynch lurkers!' argument. To that I say 'if scum can post actively, contribute, give opinions and so on without giving scum tells, then they've earned the win'. Scum lurk because lurking means they can refrain from making comments that come back to bite them in the ass later. Town, conversely, wants to talk as much as possible, so if LAL fails because Town is lazy it's not because LAL is wrong, it's because the Town players are bad.
Yes, sometimes the lurkers are Town, and the scum are the active players. At those points, the hope is that you can discern the scummy active players through the scumtells they make - leading bad wagons, being present on mislynches, fallacies etc. - and then lynch them for that because you find the active scumtells being given more threatening than the passive scumtells of other players.
But as for this situation? Both the passive (lack of input) and active (jumping on easy lynches/old cases, holding to Li case and writing off Maya's counter argument with 'it was purposeful', behaviour alongside Tanaka that could easily be buddy-buddy) scumtells, you're ahead of the pack. So I don't see what your 'maybe we shouldn't lynch lurkers' point actually accomplishes other than 'oh noes, don't lynch me just because I'm not posting as much as everyone else!'
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Okay, so... that sucks, where we at here. I'll say flat out that yes, this game has frustrated me, I apologize, and on top of that I'm unfortunately pretty busy prepping for a new job this weekend. But I'll try to stay positive nonetheless.
Helga is definitely my first choice for scum here, everything she's saying is self-serving and carries preemptive "I know I'm scum but don't lynch me!" defensive tones. In addition to what everyone else has pointed out, her cases and railing against LAL contain a very obvious key fallacy: scum!Mai advocating LAL all game would have no guarantee townies would lurk like Rin and Leia did! It's a retroactive case that assigns a motive to Mai (preying on poor lurky townies) that would be impossible for scum!Mai to actually have had at the time.
Not... to say Mai isn't scum though. Figuring out the partnership is the hard part here. While I do support Mai's LAL policies I've grown more and more wary of her for not really doing anything but that, and in fact actively being dismissive of other cases and dare I say smug. This does worry me. I could definitely see some sort of strategy where they're both scum, Helga lurks, Mai LALs everyone but Helga and now in LYLO they just take opposing sides for a crossfire deal.
Then there's Li, who's confused me all game. At first I thought his jumping everywhere was scummy, then I thought it might just be how he rolls, now I'm second guessing that too. Since the game's relatively low quotas of heat have gone towards lurkers, people lynching lurkers, and people who talk a lot, the middle ground has been the best place to hide - that's where he's sat and he's gotten a mostly free pass on his tendency to change opinions at the drop of a hat. He's a wildcard and I could see scum!Li partnered with anyone left. It's hard to say anything concrete on him because he himself hasn't been very concrete - if the game hadn't been infested by lurkers I'd have been trying to ride him hard, but as it is, my efforts towards him got zero attention and then lurkers took priority.
Tron is the towniest person left, consistently posting and scumhunting. The things I really had pinging on her were connections to Rin when I assumed Rin was scum. Since Rin's flipped town, it would make negative sense for scum!Tron to have made those associations. I don't see any way I'd vote her in front of anyone else now. So.
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OK, so from what I can see everyone here is willing to agree that Helga is the scummiest player around (bar Helga herself, obviously).
Unless anyone gives an especially good reason not to before then, I'm dropping a vote on her in a few hours. No point in hanging around in a situation like this, because the only point of contention at this juncture seems to be who her buddy is.
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In addition to what everyone else has pointed out, her cases and railing against LAL contain a very obvious key fallacy: scum!Mai advocating LAL all game would have no guarantee townies would lurk like Rin and Leia did! It's a retroactive case that assigns a motive to Mai (preying on poor lurky townies) that would be impossible for scum!Mai to actually have had at the time.
LAL is a perfectly defensible position for active scum to take. Lay the argument out there, see who lurks and jump on them if they do. If they're loud enough, then they can get town to follow along with them if the lurkers are egregious enough. How the hell can you argue against it then, barring someone basically coming out and saying they're scum? If they return... oh well. Nothing lost, LAL after all.
So I don't see what your 'maybe we shouldn't lynch lurkers' point actually accomplishes other than 'oh noes, don't lynch me just because I'm not posting as much as everyone else!'
Actually, I checked yesterday (Day 3). My one post was damn close to some. How many did Mai have other than her hammer post? One. It just agreed with Houllihan, says Tanaka isn't looking good but doesn't follow up on it, and then railed on me some more while saying the token "Yep... Rin". Lazy. Leia in Day 2. Leia RETURNS "Pffft. Active lurker". Day 3. Tron asks for time to give Rin a chance to respond. Mai's reaction? Immediate hammer. I think this post from Day 2 sums her attitude up the best:
Leery at people popping up and going 'well Leia might not be scum because scum would not do what she does, it's too easy!' It is pretty much one of the scummiest things you can do and I certainly shall not be going elsewhere today. Mostly looking at Maya going 'surely Leia would have silenced Rin by dying'. It is a pretty hard thing to gauge; Leia probably expected to die on her own soon enough, she could not be thinking at all, she could be waiting for a buddy to slam her, she could be a lot of things. Tron pretty much nails it by pointing out what she is doing is flagrantly anti-town. Kinda want to see how it all goes down before speculating on teams- but a Leia/Rin one isn't one I think is too likely at this point, for all that I think they're both pretty bad.
Not liking Maya much, this is a situation where I think keeping it simple is better and rooting around for theories on contributors instead of those who, well, aren't seems like it's looking right past the obvious. In her case on Tron here-
Ran around like a headless chicken, very pointedly did not respond to my expanded argument (you know, after having hated the earlier form of it at this point), and for playing daddy's little friendly helper since to blend back in. What's this, you just so happen to agree with two of the cases of the day that were made before you posted? What are the odds! Let's not forget that the actual sum content of what she did after getting all flustered - which I think is at least part of why people aren't voting for her? - was actually no better than most. The very large attitude change to the new sweetness does nothing to dissuade me either.
-doesn't have anything solid in it that is screaming 'SCUMMY TRAITS' to me, so I'm not sure why she's still pursuing it as this juncture and certainly don't think it is more deserving than the many other colourful characters I've singled out today.
All it ever is with her is "DO NOT LOOK AT THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN! Look at the obvious! It's so obvious! Obvious!"
If it's so obvious, why has she been 100% wrong up until now?.
Li, there's no need to rush this. At least let Mai and Tron comment some more, even if they haven't come back after a few hours pass. Game WILL end if you lynch me, but if we can somehow turn this around and find scum, more content from them would benefit tomorrow. Not that it helps, but I'm Vanilla Town.
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Helga, you realise this LAL problem of yours wouldn't have emerged if we didn't have a game were, uh, about half the players could be classified as lurking. Saying right now that if you're right and scum really ARE the active players, then I'm willing to accept we lost thanks to generally sucking (fingers will be pointed mainly in the directions of Leia and Rin on this count).
Besides that, you shouting at Carth for posting only twice yesterday (when the day was cut short by a lynch that no-one had reason to argue against and Rin was never coming around to defend herself anyway) is very pot/kettle/black. Your post, in contrast, was 'Hey, let's go pick up the case of the dead Townie! No-one can get mad at me for that, because Maya was following it and she was Town!'
If you insist, I'll hold off on it until tomorrow morning. That should give Tron and Mai more time to contribute, and if there are no objections by then I'm dropping a vote. That's of course assuming they don't appear and give consent to the idea beforehand while I'm still around, in which case I don't intend to make this day linger when it's clear everyone here wants a Helga lynch.
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I'm still fine with a Helga lynch. There are too many things in her Mai breakdown that read false to me. Characterizing Mai's entire game as LAL, for one. Mai invokes it a lot but it's not been her sole reason to go after people--Leia was lynched in large part due to what she said when she did post, remember. If she had attempted to contribute instead of actively trolling the game, she wouldn't have been such a magnet. Mai mentioned Leia's attitude as being part of the problem when she cast her vote, yet Helga still doesn't seem to notice this (despite quoting Mai posts that say as much). Speculation about scum stealth-hammering Leia to save Mai doesn't really scan either; after what Leia did, I don't think there really was a realistic chance of someone other than her getting lynched that day. Two votes on Mai wouldn't really have been that much of a threat.
Confidence, what Tanaka refers to as "smugness," being used as a demerit isn't something I buy either. I've found this is a pretty necessary approach in mafia to get people to listen to opinions regardless of alignment. And yes, Mai's lynch choices have been wrong so far. The thing is, so have everyone else's.
There's also Helga's continued reliance on mere suggestions along the lines of "Maybe Mai deliberately missed the end of day one." This is impossible to prove; I really only consider absences stretching towards a day or more suspicious given the way this game has gone; and I just plain don't think it's true in this case (I hate to bring this point up because it invokes an advantage Rat and no one else has--not being anonymous--but day one ended very early in the A.M. Oz time. Not Posting at Five in the Morning isn't really a fair accusation in any circumstances, I think). Ultimately I just don't buy the case and it feels desperate.
I am fine with casting votes at this point.
(Addendum: Some minor historical revisionism on Tanaka's part in his last post. Yesterday he stated I hadn't done anything but defend myself against Maya, while today he applauds my dedicated scumhunting (and says that his suspicion of me was only ever based on Rin connections). People are allowed to change their minds and all, but this is a pretty abrupt turnaround. Given that Tanaka was the last of us to make his first post of the day, he had plenty of chance to see where the wind was blowing, cut his losses and tailor his opinions accordingly to save face in the event of a potential day five. But that's something to consider for tomorrow if there is one.)
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Helga's been riding me for trying to LAL since day 3, which has been entirely unjustified; it is, I think, one of the strongest methods of scumhunting, there is usually very little reason to not do it. That she was willing to leap on me right after the Leia lynch for this kinda implies to me now that she knows it's going to fail, and thus is trying to build cred by attacking it's evangelists rather than contemplate it herself. That she DID vote Leia also implies she has no real problem with it as a method and is willing to use it for convenience, too.
Also
Leia in Day 2. Leia RETURNS "Pffft. Active lurker"
Are you seriously contesting that she posted anything remotely worthwhile?
As for being wrong, it kinda happens sometimes. Still think it's the best option available in games like this, would still do it again in similar circumstances. Other suspicious circumstances aside, going 'it is CLEARLY scummy to LAL in a game where lurkers are scum!' ignores that town totally doesn't know that, and that any quality town is going to crack down on it, and that most of the time all scum would need to do is sit back, watch, and build cred on either tagging on later or attacking it's proponents.
No issue casting this now as just about everyone seems in agreement.
##Vote: Helga
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As for being wrong, it kinda happens sometimes. Still think it's the best option available in games like this, would still do it again in similar circumstances. Other suspicious circumstances aside, going 'it is CLEARLY scummy to LAL in a game where lurkers are scum!' ignores that town totally doesn't know that, and that any quality town is going to crack down on it, and that most of the time all scum would need to do is sit back, watch, and build cred on either tagging on later or attacking it's proponents
Yes, because attacking the main anti-lurking proponent has brought me tons and tons of town cred. That is clearly what I should have done, if I were scum. Thanks. Did I ever say I was pro-lurking? No. Again, I have the unfair advantage of knowing I'm town, so I know it HAS to be two of the active people. Unfortunately, I put myself in a bad position going into today. My fault, yeah, but I'll accept my failures. If you're town, Mai, for the love of god, don't play off yours like they were nothing.
Nothing to lose at this point. If I'm wrong, then scum can have their pick on who to lynch.
##Vote: Mai
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Well, there are two ways this can work out. Either Helga is scum grasping at Mai by claiming LAL is exactly what will get Town killed, or (in the event that Mai is scum) Carth has successfully proven that MAIDENKAMPF is not the brilliant Town strategy he thinks it is bcause scum can ride it all the way to lynch.
Either way, I win, and right now option 1 seems several times more likely, so ##Vote: Helga. If the game ends here, Helga, I won't be mad. I'll just be disappointed.
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Do or die time.
##Vote: Helga
Hammer. Stop talking.
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Poor Alice. Your dolls never knew what hit them. I guess Shanghai and Hourai have been taking yandere lessons from Flandre or something...
Helga Pataki (Vanilla Townie) has been lynched!
Li Syaoran and Tron Bonne (Vanilla Townies) have lost upon parity! Mai Tokiha (Scum Roleblocker) and Tanaka (Scum Rolecop) have won the game!
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Helga.
I am disappoint.
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So what was with all the hardcore lurking going on, Town?
(Asuka, TOWN COP here.)
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Since everyone has flipped, you can all see the setup for yourselves. (Asuka was a Sane Cop.) I admit I was surprised at the number of eyebrows the two-scum setup seemed to raise from both sides of the game - this setup is Cid's Anonyrandom with the Doctor changed to a Jailer, and no one complained about that setup that I ever saw. Live and learn, I guess.
Scum were allowed to each take a night action in addition to having a kill, though one of them still had to actually go on the kill (since there was a town roleblocking power in play).
Night 1
Scum Kill: Asuka Langley (Tanaka) (Success!)
Mai block: Helga Pataki
Tanaka Cop: Maya Kumashiro (Result: Vanilla)
Asuka Cop: Li Syaoran (Result: Town) (Killed!)
Margaret Jail: Tron Bonne (Success!)
Night 2
Kill: Maya (Tanaka) (Success!)
Roleblock: Margaret (Success!)
Rolecop: Rin (Vanilla)
Margaret Jail: Maya (Blocked!)
Night 3
Kill: Margaret (Tanaka) (Success!)
Roleblock: Margaret (Success!)
Rolecop: Helga (Vanilla)
Margaret Jail: Mai (Blocked!) (Killed!)
Not that it ended up mattering, but my private tie-breaker decision on Margaret getting blocked was Mai submitting her choice first that night.
Player flips will come later, I need to run out for a bit.
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The irony of Carth using MAIDENKAMPF to win as scum is still hilarious.
And sorry Bard I had good intentions really ;_;
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Yes, yes, of course you had. My D1 strategy was to blow up a case of derp SO HARD that people'd pass me off as derpugaloo for the rest of the game until my elegant reveal.
Unfortunately it seems scum were not impressed. :(
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So what was with all the hardcore lurking going on, Town?
(Asuka, TOWN COP here.)
Helga here. Baaaaad, baaaad timing for the most part. Horrible sleep schedule, papers due and massive forum downtime when I WAS awake.
Helga.
I am disappoint.
About what?
Hat's off to scum. Good job. Your plan did pretty much EXACTLY what you intended it to do. LAL, let any townies assaulting you for it fall on their own swords and sweep up the remnants. Took a lot of luck to have that many lurkers in town, but props anyway. Good job on Tanaka overturning the Mai train by hammering, then getting people to ignore the relevance of that move. I was planning on changing my vote to Mai when I got back too... but saw the day had already ended ;-;
3 hours is still a long time in Mafia, Li<G>
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Yeah, so I have no idea how you didn't lynch Rat. He just couldn't possibly be that stupid in his implementation of LAL (and I'm hoping his little epilogue here will be to teach people proper LAL, because I'm sure he didn't believe what he was saying at the time). Tanaka I guessed on day three when he suddenly came out in full support of Rat in an equally obvious manner, and was only my secondary pair guess to Kilga at the time because I just couldn't shake Tron's day one play from my mind. But yeah, I was actually wrong about Tron, so I can't be completely 'told you so' on it.
Kilga: if it is the same as that game except those two changes (doctor -> jailer, kill++), then you've upped scum's power by a fair chunk in comparison. But eh, it's plausible that scum were underpowered in the original.
Sopko ninja: man, you were my light of hope after I died. I figured that surely with the evidence that clear you'd be able to convince people, but apparently not.
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About what?
If the game ends here, Helga, I won't be mad. I'll just be disappointed.
Honestly, the main reason Cartanaka got away with what they did was because Town decided not to be around. Leia and Rin in particular were asdfghjkl.
And gdit, why is it every time I get a stupid gut hunch and people convince me away from it, I turn out to be right? -_-
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Eh.
I doubt I'd have been that confident if I was town.
But I'd probably have gone for the same lynches in the end. Holy shit how do you play with lurkers like that, it's just impossible...
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Yeah. I was thinking Mai/Tanaka after the Day 2 Hammer. The problem was that other than the hammer... I had absolutely nothing to pin on Tanaka at the time, so I couldn't really pursue it in earnst.
If nothing else, I hope this makes people realize what I've always said... strategies like LAL are basically sound, but they have drawbacks and are not infallable, and should not be used in place of actual thought and shouldn't be automatically defaulted to. Slavish adherance to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about. I got lazy with the Leia vote and it cost me credibility. Oh well. My failures in this game are apparant.
About what?
If the game ends here, Helga, I won't be mad. I'll just be disappointed.
Honestly, the main reason Cartanaka got away with what they did was because Town decided not to be around. Leia and Rin in particular were asdfghjkl.
And gdit, why is it every time I get a stupid gut hunch and people convince me away from it, I turn out to be right? -_-
Rin was bad, Leia was more Rat convincing people that everything she did was terrible. In hindsight, Leia's attitude came AFTER people just wrote off everything she said, but it was assumed it was there all along. It's an unforgivable attitude to cop, mind, but... makes it so easy to mis-characterize. Which is why you shouldn't do it at all.
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Kilga: if it is the same as that game except those two changes (doctor -> jailer, kill++), then you've upped scum's power by a fair chunk in comparison. But eh, it's plausible that scum were underpowered in the original.
Well, the thing is that the first thing Tanaka did when he entered the scumchat was kvetch about "only two scum" (and Rat had said something about it prior as well). Even after allowing use of both powers each night I got to hear about it again when Asuka flipped and then again when Margaret died. A couple of other dead townies expressed mild surprise at 9/2 throughout the game as well. I myself am of the opinion that a 33% lynch accuracy game is much better than a 60% lynch accuracy game regardless of role shenanigans, and I have been for a very long time (look at all the stuff I said on the final day of Laggy's Succinct), so it was quite a shock to me to see so many people expect 8/3 when Cid never got any public admonishment for his 9/2.
Not to blame Cid or anything, of course.
(I still love ya, Alex. <3)
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Good game all. Setup was a bit crazy, hard for both sides I think. At 9-2, the numerical odds are highly against scum, they really cannot make a single mistake and must be actively in control of the game at all times, I feel. Cop and jailer tilt the odds even more in favor of town - we got REALLY lucky randomly bagging the cop N1 and avoiding the jailer altogether. And lucky in the first place that the scum team was me (Alex) + Rat. And lucky that there was so much forum downtime exaggerating the inactivity strategy we went with, and that townies lurked for us. I do feel we played somewhat well but the win kind of fell into our lap from luck here.
The setup also worked against town in some ways, with only two scum you aren't likely to get a scum flip until you've nailed the team, which can cause a lot of frustration. Just generally not a ratio I favor. Cid's setup worked better because he ran semi-open, the extra knowledge makes a big difference. I still don't like 9-2 though. >_>
We also both played pretty lazily, Soppy was right about Mai and Tron about me (read her posts on the last day or two, I think she knew I was scum deep down but couldn't/wouldn't act on it). But like the old adage says, sometimes you don't have to outrun the lion, just be faster than the guy behind you. Especially apparent with Leia, where we just sowed a bit of discredit on her and town/Leia herself let it snowball.
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Clearly the solution is to compromise and go 8-2-1. <_<
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I'd actually like that better than 9-2 in some ways! But ideally we'd be able to grab a couple more people. Or semi-open setup, or at least give scum fakeclaims or something. As it is, the door's open for something like cop hitting scum night 1, announcing it and then it's easy to find their partner, GG.
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Hmm. Would Tracker or Watcher have been better for balance instead of Cop, do you think?
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Probably. It would open the door to some sort of claim game, at least, whereas Cop/Miller is just sort of a game-deciding dick move either way it goes.
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I don't agree with your statement about town deserving to lose at all. Yes, all lurkers being town is bad. However, it's the ones who DO win that are the ones who deserved to win. Everything else is just jerking off and backpatting to make yourself feel better. Scum hasn't won yet, so if you are town, don't say defeatist crap like that.
This. This. THIS.
Oh my god, it was quite painful to see this attitude which made the game quite unwinnable. The last day never had a chance to go anywhere because of Li's "I'm not going to think today, because if we lose I'LL JUST BLAME THE LURKERS". Grah. Town should be able to survive a couple of inactive players, but they won't if they let scum lead them around like that. "The least active players are always scum" is silly and mod pokes for inactivity are more effective than just lynching them all.
Good job by scum, they definitely did what they had to do and did it quite well. Jump on the biggest lurker, make them look like bigger lurkers than they actually were (or scummier, at least), get town to follow the bait because everyone knows lurkers are bad! The endgame consisting of all the players who were hardest on the lurkers should have been a pretty big hint, but it was hard to see until then (props to those who did), so eh.
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Thank you Helga for not being a toolshed (to steal a quote from the immortal Grefter). Scum played well enough to fool chumps I guess. I knew who they were but was already too far gone dig myself out of the lurking hole so I just trolled the topic instead. Well, I enjoyed it at least.
<3 Sopko.
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You were Leia, Ciato? Ha! I thought that was Zenny
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I indeed was the sexer of Harrison Ford.
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Oh my god, it was quite painful to see this attitude which made the game quite unwinnable. The last day never had a chance to go anywhere because of Li's "I'm not going to think today, because if we lose I'LL JUST BLAME THE LURKERS". Grah. Town should be able to survive a couple of inactive players, but they won't if they let scum lead them around like that. "The least active players are always scum" is silly and mod pokes for inactivity are more effective than just lynching them all.
In my defense, Helga had plenty of other points that got held against her beyond the lurking (ignoring the counter point Maya made against the Li case and spewing nonsense about my absence being 'purposeful', immediately jumping on the case of a dead Townie, which turned out to be a case of unfortunate coincidence). The one thing I'm willing to admit I slipped up on was her shouting at Tanaka for the D2 hammer, a point which I disregarded because, well, I tunnel harder than a Dwarf in Boatmurdered.
But I will admit that given the circumstances I was pretty pissed. After Rin flipped Town I basically gave up in terms of trusting my own opinion with finding scum. On top of that, thanks to the given 9/2 setup, I was paranoid that we were in one of those hopeless situations where even if you find scum you lose to a third-party by default (as happened in my last game). So I'll admit that I didn't want to sit and second-guess myself too much and just went with the general idea that Helga was horribad. Sorry, but a game with three Town lurker lynches Days 1-3 wears at your enthusiasm. >_>
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Blarg, should not have stated that I had gotten roleblocked.
Ah well, kudos to scumteam, you guys hustled and you won that one. I know I also had the two of you set aside as 'town' until mid-late Day 3, where Tanaka started looking off, and then Rin's flip, which, oddly, made me jump on Rat on the night action. Not sure what was up with Rin, but Leia's attitude certainly didn't help, as it was one of the defining reasons as to why I couldn't be bothered to make sure I got a bit of time to move my vote. But yeah, Town just collectively shut their heads down on Day 3, and tossing Rin at L-1 with no real hope of anyone else being considered went a long way to sealing the game given the way it rattled morale when Rin turned out to be town.
As for the setup, I guess Jailer instead of Doc works for 9/2, but letting both scum have actions as well as their kill? Seems a bit excessive.
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I dunno.
Scum night actions don't really do anything but stop town night actions coming out of nowhere to win the game for town, so stuff like roleblock/rolecop rarely seems excessive to me. The real danger roles are things like godfather/framer/busdriver/stuff like that, things that turn town night actions into double-edged swords.
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Oh, yes, player list. I was kinda disappointed at the lack of guesses, because this is the first game in a long time (possibly ever?) where everyone was reasonably guessable and there were no out-of-left-field entrants.
1. Rat - Mai Tohika
2. Yoshi - Tatl Sopko - Helga Pataki
3. Bard - Asuka Langley
4. Roukan - Li Syaoran
5. Alex - Tanaka
6. Excal - Margaret Houlihan
7. Ciato - Princess Leia
8. Alice - Rin Tohsaka
9. Cid - Tron Bonne
10. Glen - Chiaki
11. Xanth - Maya Kumashiro
Ciato: 3/7
Excal: 4/6
Snowfire: 2/7
Scum team: 4/4
NEB: 1/1 >_>
The Day 1 call was made on Tatl because Yoshi had not logged into the DL in 5 days. Sorry, buddy. :<
Metas played to a T:
- Ciato played entirely to the beat of her own drum, was clearly playing based more on having fun than finding scum, and nailed the scum team right before her exit from the game.
- Alice was scum, even though he wasn't.
Excal: I'm being told that the Jailer is a step up from standard Doc in a setup like this, so. I personally think it's a lateral move, but there are evidently those that disagree. Given the lack of use this topic got otherwise, now seems as good a time as any to discuss setup and balance theory.
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I can see that, I know I definately tried to use my role in both defensive and offensive manners (and got roleblocked both times it would have been effective, that was frustrating). In fact, that frustrating thing is one of the quieter things the scum had going for them. They didn't just out play us, they got lucky and neutralised both town power roles very effectively, which took the cop out of play before it could get started, and ensuring that their nightkills happened.
And that's actually the main reason why I think the double acting was an issue. It meant that Scum had a lot more information open to them. Especially in a game where certain people have shown they won't be around, or will otherwise be easy to get lynched. They had the ability to block and kill two people to screw with actions, as well as a rolecop to figure out a third person's powers, and then lock that person down or kill them.
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Oh, also, Kilga. Can you let us know which people were most often guessed right, and which ones people kept goofing on?
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I don't agree with your statement about town deserving to lose at all. Yes, all lurkers being town is bad. However, it's the ones who DO win that are the ones who deserved to win. Everything else is just jerking off and backpatting to make yourself feel better. Scum hasn't won yet, so if you are town, don't say defeatist crap like that.
This. This. THIS.
Oh my god, it was quite painful to see this attitude which made the game quite unwinnable. The last day never had a chance to go anywhere because of Li's "I'm not going to think today, because if we lose I'LL JUST BLAME THE LURKERS". Grah. Town should be able to survive a couple of inactive players, but they won't if they let scum lead them around like that. "The least active players are always scum" is silly and mod pokes for inactivity are more effective than just lynching them all.
Good job by scum, they definitely did what they had to do and did it quite well. Jump on the biggest lurker, make them look like bigger lurkers than they actually were (or scummier, at least), get town to follow the bait because everyone knows lurkers are bad! The endgame consisting of all the players who were hardest on the lurkers should have been a pretty big hint, but it was hard to see until then (props to those who did), so eh.
This.
LAL is a good strategy and I'm sad that some people are probably going to walk away from this game thinking it's not, but don't swallow the scum Kool-aid. Any strategy is bad when it comes at the expense of rational thought.
Thank you Helga for not being a toolshed (to steal a quote from the immortal Grefter). Scum played well enough to fool chumps I guess. I knew who they were but was already too far gone dig myself out of the lurking hole so I just trolled the topic instead. Well, I enjoyed it at least.
<3 Sopko.
This too. We did our best to discredit and kill the people who had our number, Leia and Maya in midgame and Helga at the end. <3 Ciatokins, sorry for being dirty scum this time!
In my defense, Helga had plenty of other points that got held against her beyond the lurking (ignoring the counter point Maya made against the Li case and spewing nonsense about my absence being 'purposeful', immediately jumping on the case of a dead Townie, which turned out to be a case of unfortunate coincidence). The one thing I'm willing to admit I slipped up on was her shouting at Tanaka for the D2 hammer, a point which I disregarded because, well, I tunnel harder than a Dwarf in Boatmurdered.
... Sorry, but a game with three Town lurker lynches Days 1-3 wears at your enthusiasm. >_>
No, she really didn't, her case on Mai was dead on. Jumping on me for the hammer was fine; the hammer itself I don't think was particularly scummy given the circumstances but it was a good bit of questioning, and she did treat it well and actually think about it.
As for the lurker lynches, well, here's some scumchat from night 1:
[06:46] <Knight> So yeah
[06:46] <Knight> Activity based play
[06:46] <Knight> Kill active people?
[06:46] <Ranmilia> I agree
[06:46] <Ranmilia> Except that the most active person is Maya
[06:46] <Knight> I was going with killing Asuka because Maya does likie me, and then killing her later
[06:46] <Knight> Because
[06:46] <Ranmilia> That works
[06:46] <Ranmilia> That's what i was thinking too
[06:46] <Knight> Cool
One minute gameplan, kill the talkative people, and bam.
Blarg, should not have stated that I had gotten roleblocked.
I can't say it was a bad move, but it did let us know you had a role, yeah, since the person we blocked N1 didn't mention anything. As far as setup though I still think this was highly Town favored - it effectively played out as an all-vanilla game, due to massive luck on our parts, with scum down in numbers, and any successful town role use would have spelled instant doom for us. Even letting the cop live to get one or two clears would be killer. We did win but it was a razor edge to get there.
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Oh, also, Kilga. Can you let us know which people were most often guessed right, and which ones people kept goofing on?
Most common correct guesses were Xanth and yourself (though one of those that guessed you was Ciato and the other was NEB's PoE powers, so that's a little skewed against you), most common incorrect guess was people thinking Li was Bard. I actually wondered about this, as Alex mentioned Bard told everyone he was Asuka on IRC at one point. But w.evs
Two people swung and missed at Tron, who I knew pre-game would be the hardest to guess as Cid admitted he had never played MegaMan Legends. (Which he actually gave away in his first post; Tron knows German to a degree, almost all of her mechs have German names). Two people also swung and missed at Helga.
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LAL is a good strategy and I'm sad that some people are probably going to walk away from this game thinking it's not, but don't swallow the scum Kool-aid. Any strategy is bad when it comes at the expense of rational thought.
I'm going to highlight this because it actually fits in well with the SAT prep course I'm teaching right now, and I had been thinking about it throughout the game as people kept buying into blind LAL (and the ones that didn't and decided to look at Rat instead died!).
One of the primary introductory points of this SAT Prep course concerns calculator use. The book we use says that a calculator is a very valuable tool, but it should never ever ever be used as a replacement for thinking. Both standard and graphing calculators have faults: standard calculators don't PEMDAS at all, graphing calculators PEMDAS more than the user expects (-4^2 = -16 being the most obvious example), and neither are much of any good working with fractions. The calculator is there to help you on the test, not take the test for you. Just as in the rest of high school, "the calculator told me so" is not a valid reason for why an answer is correct.
The same thing applies here. LAL is a very useful tool, and if used properly it will force scum to be on their toes if not catch them outright. What LAL is not is an excuse not to try. You still need to think for yourself. LAL is a tool to help build a case, it isn't a case in and of itself. The entire approach to the Rin wagon is pretty much an excellent example of this in action, and Rat really should have been hounded for that quick hammer because there was zero reason to not wait at least a little bit to see if she'd poke her head in again.
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I can't even remember saying I was Asuka? Whatever. It musta happened after I died anyway. I think it should have been obvious in hindsight anyway, because I live right next to Germany and I've mentioned before that German and French were mandatory classes for me.
Kind of amused I was the D1 shot depite my best attempts to avoid it. :(
Kinda amused as well that people thought I was Li. :)
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3. Bard - Asuka Langley
most common incorrect guess was people thinking Li was Bard
Irony
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Why is that irony?
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Probably because you spent your entire game admonishing someone that everyone else thought was you.
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:< I had a good cause.
Also:
(OOC: Anyone else here with ~*MAGIC*~, blame me knowing jack shit about anime.)
Li's first post. :(
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I was like 1000% sure that Li was Bard. Oh well! Good game Bardy!
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Add 1 to the "Thought Li was Bard" party here, though I did revise that to Rou midway through the game after Rou mentioned in IRC that he was playing mafia. They both have this kind of earnest clumsiness about them when playing this game.
I am forced to wonder who the people guessing at Tron thought I was.
Tanaka was pretty clear to me by the end. Should've gone for him day 4, but I was equally sure on Helga and that was obviously the case I'd get agreement on. Would've been hard to go after Rat after I'd spent all that time knocking Helga's case on her (Helga made too many points I disagreed with to acknowledge the good ones); nagging suspicion that I should pay more attention to her was there, but I would've had to turn my own opinion around before I could even start on Li's, so.
Xanth, man, what was with the massive excavation project there? Seriously, you got that much from day one? I actually was pretty annoyed about that, especially on day one. Didn't know the character outside of some YouTube videos I'd looked up beforehand, was fiddling around to try and sort out how to talk and got slammed for it. Drained a lot of the fun out of things to get hit for that.
LAL is useful as long as town doesn't lurk, alas. But I think the real lesson to be learned here is that town Rat never lives to LYLO, right guys?
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Heh, I just noticed another nice move on Scum's part in LYLO.
When Cid brings up the idea of looking at someone besides Rat and Soppy, specifically, his scum buddy, the guy lays down a vote, forcing the issue between him and Soppy, instead of letting people think about Tanaka and possibly decide that would be worth going for.
Kinda fit with the pattern of ending the days when things look like they might go against scum, without ever really getting called out on it. (ie. the one person who did was pretty soundly ignored)
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Be fair, as sure as I was I took the fact that absolutely no one else was buying into it as a sign that I needed to be elsewhere even if I was right, was on Mai by the end of the day and would have been on him and Tanaka on day three had I lived (well, had I lived maybe Tanaka would have played differently).
Your day one actions were clear cut scum, what can I say. Very little to do with the roleplaying, and I imagine was as little fun for me as it was for you. Guess it's just something I have to factor into future play, given that you weren't. Live and learn and all that.
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Two people also swung and missed at Helga.
Oooo. Who and who did they think I was?
Also, re: Leia trolling town. The lesson to be learned here that trolling town only wins you the game when you're scum~
The game, if nothing else, teaches me yet again that I must TAKE THE SHOT. A vote on Mai before she voted me might have helped a lot. I meant to make the post I made at the start of Day 4 at the end of Day 3, but balked because I was emo about the overwhelming dread of trying to assault LAL.
LAL is a good strategy and I'm sad that some people are probably going to walk away from this game thinking it's not, but don't swallow the scum Kool-aid. Any strategy is bad when it comes at the expense of rational thought.
I'm going to highlight this because it actually fits in well with the SAT prep course I'm teaching right now, and I had been thinking about it throughout the game as people kept buying into blind LAL (and the ones that didn't and decided to look at Rat instead died!).
One of the primary introductory points of this SAT Prep course concerns calculator use. The book we use says that a calculator is a very valuable tool, but it should never ever ever be used as a replacement for thinking. Both standard and graphing calculators have faults: standard calculators don't PEMDAS at all, graphing calculators PEMDAS more than the user expects (-4^2 = -16 being the most obvious example), and neither are much of any good working with fractions. The calculator is there to help you on the test, not take the test for you. Just as in the rest of high school, "the calculator told me so" is not a valid reason for why an answer is correct.
The same thing applies here. LAL is a very useful tool, and if used properly it will force scum to be on their toes if not catch them outright. What LAL is not is an excuse not to try. You still need to think for yourself. LAL is a tool to help build a case, it isn't a case in and of itself. The entire approach to the Rin wagon is pretty much an excellent example of this in action, and Rat really should have been hounded for that quick hammer because there was zero reason to not wait at least a little bit to see if she'd poke her head in again.
Second/third/fourthing this.
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Sopko: Yeah, actually. The jig would've been up once scumhammer didn't materialize--although whether Li or I would've been patient enough to wait and verify that is questionable. Probably not. After a couple long days of too many people not saying enough, I was pretty much in the mindset of let's end this game already one way or another.
Xanth: It was me being annoyed, you reading irritation as evasiveness, and a feedback loop kicking in. I really should've started ignoring you earlier than I did, but the conviction you held in a day one case is still pretty baffling to me.
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Xanth and Snowfire were the Helga misses, DjinnAndTonic and Joe Rambo were the Tron misses.
(The person that guess Djinn had good reason to suspect he was playing, though.)
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Xanth and Snowfire were the Helga misses, DjinnAndTonic and Joe Rambo were the Tron misses.
(The person that guess Djinn had good reason to suspect he was playing, though.)
Djinn as Tron is the absolute last connection I'd ever make there. -So- doesn't fit the person. Not that I guessed any. >_>
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Good game I guess, more annoyed at myself then anything for not paying enough attention after the extended deadline, managed to get a good post written only to finish it like a minute after I got hammered <.<.
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I know I definately had to fight the urge to think of Djinn as playing Chiaki.
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Hah. I was wondering if anyone would guess Snow based on avatar association alone.
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I guessed Snow because he's Snow or something. I got Alex and Excal and Xanth right.
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Shoulda stuck to my guns (Xanth was obvious, Excal I was less sure on but still correct). Leia read as extreme Ciato at first, and later did, but I guessed Zenny anyway off of semi-meta thoughts that ended up totally wrong. Those were the only two who could have played Leia though. The defeatism was bad play, no doubt, but I did agree with the points that Leia made. I also jokingly guessed myself for who was playing Li, as Roukanken really wrote like me in some of the anon games I've been in (though, like everyone else, Bardiche was my ultimate guess). This is interesting as in DL Mafia Roukanken and I ended up with wildly different and clashing styles, though obviously some of that ended up being intentional separation later.
As for scum, I wasn't sure of much aside from Li Syaron reading as very town to me, and Houlihan / Helga reading as lightly town. Rat's actions on Day 3 convinced me he was scum, though I can't be entirely sure of my scumdar there (I've thought Rat was scum in most games he's been in, even when he's not.) - definitely would have been on Helga's side for the final day. I thought she was notably better than Yon Average Lurker and was kind of surprised that everyone suddenly switched to "Why did we think Rat was guilty? Let's kill Helga instead." Since this was pretty much the entire game, I had no ideas about who the other scum could have been. Nice play to Alex/Tanaka, he definitely seemed towny enough without either scumbussing or raising suspicions about why he wasn't killed yet.
Though it was pretty brief, I got warm fuzzy town feelings from Asuka as well (by Day 1 standards), and actually guessed Alex was playing her. It'd have been a good cop-lurk if there hadn't been so much other lurking.
I was amused by what roleplaying there was, even the parts that were just turns of phrase a la Houlihan. Though Xanth pretty much dropped the RPing early, I will compliment his eye on screencaps - those images were well-picked for amusment / weirdness.
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The Day 1 call was made on Tatl because Yoshi had not logged into the DL in 5 days. Sorry, buddy. :<
No worries. Real life stuff came up, so wasn't really able to be around. Probably would've been equally lurkery.
...Wouldn't have blindly followed LAL either, but neither did my replacement, so yeah!
Repeating what everyone else said about Town giving up and just blindly following. Really damn surprised to see the DL making the same mistakes the other site I play on are making, since the players here are a lot better. =/ LAL is fine when it's active lurking, but when it's just plain not doing anything? That deserves a poke, maybe, but definitely not an instant lynch.
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Oh, I meant to ask: what's that song Ciato/Leia quoted?
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(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/628/23524158.jpg)(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/1943/38598880.jpg)(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/2128/57750156.jpg)
(http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/5378/51375961.jpg)(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4187/40088861.jpg)(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/9466/23658382.jpg)
Though Xanth pretty much dropped the RPing early, I will compliment his eye on screencaps - those images were well-picked for amusment / weirdness.
Oh man, you have no idea. That's like my top reason for why I was disappointed with the low activity in this game. I'd made so many screenshots and was ready for 20+ posts a day, as the main reason I chose Maya (I was actually trying to avoid overly bitchy characters, as hard as that may be given the theme) was because Occult Academy is a goldmine for reaction faces, if not actually a good series. I'd even deliberately started out by not going into my favourites, a small selection of which I showcase above, for more cunning use later on that never happened. The inactivity was also why I never felt inclined to actually get into roleplaying at all, but frankly the only real difference you would have seen was some flavour-specific language, as Maya's a super-aggressive bitchy type (<3), so not far off the mark.
Oh, and yeah, I've pretty much stopped trying to hide my identity in anonymous games, between time zones and the amount of extra effort it takes to try and post in a different style.
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Oh, I meant to ask: what's that song Ciato/Leia quoted?
Watching Evil Empires Fall Apart. It's an Electric Six song.
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Followed up by quoting my favorite character from Mistborn (if I had added the line afterwards, which is "Like my fondness for reading books at the dinner table." it may have been more identifiable >_>)
I was not even attempting to hide my identity. :)