The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Dark Holy Elf on October 16, 2010, 08:04:34 PM
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Godlike:
4-Kuja (FF9) vs Persephone (WA5)
Miguel (CC) vs Id (XG)
Arnaud G.Vasquez (WA4) vs Lugia (PKMN)
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Ryu (BoF3)
Heavy:
Marcello (DQ8) vs 4-Augustine (S3)
Marle (CT) vs Freyjadour (S5)
Rayquaza (PKMN) vs Rapp (G1)
Edna Capone (SH3) vs 2-Garan (SH2)
Middle:
3-Meru (LoD) vs Adray Lasbard (SO3)
Kurtis (Disgaea) vs Titania (FE9)
Hellion (S1) vs Sara (BoF1)
Lute (FE8) vs 2-Flay Gunnar (MK)
Light:
4-Kahn (BoF4) vs Janus (VP1)
Zahhak (S5) vs Cai (Brig)
Nei (S3) vs Laguna Loire (FF8)
Belle (S3) vs 2-Lowen (FE7)
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Godlike:
4-Kuja (FF9) vs Persephone (WA5)
Miguel (CC) vs Id (XG): Confident here at least. Miguel has a 2HKO at worst, and isn't dying before then.
Arnaud G.Vasquez (WA4) vs Lugia (PKMN)
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Ryu (BoF3)
Unsure on every other Godlike match, headaches.
Heavy:
Marcello (DQ8) vs 4-Augustine (S3): Has a faster 2HKO, I think?
Marle (CT) vs Freyjadour (S5): Haste/heal. The status mostly serves as icing.
Rayquaza (PKMN) vs Rapp (G1): Ray wants some way to block death.
Edna Capone (SH3) vs 2-Garan (SH2): Outslugs fairly easily.
Middle:
3-Meru (LoD) vs Adray Lasbard (SO3): Overwhelms with her far superior speed.
Kurtis (Disgaea) vs Titania (FE9): Both 3HKO each other, Titania goes first by both systems' rules.
Hellion (S1) vs Sara (BoF1): So lame.
Lute (FE8) vs 2-Flay Gunnar (MK): Don't see timed cards being countered in general, so probably Flay. Might need a closer look though.
Light:
4-Kahn (BoF4) vs Janus (VP1): Somehow far closer than...
Zahhak (S5) vs Cai (Brig): ... this.
Nei (S3) vs Laguna Loire (FF8): Can probably tinker with her swing skill to ensure she doesn't give Laguna a limit. Her physical's better than you'd think.
Belle (S3) vs 2-Lowen (FE7): Fairly straightforward.
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Godlike:
Arnaud G.Vasquez (WA4) vs Lugia (PKMN) - Pretty confident in this.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Ryu (BoF3) - Unless Ryu walls all status from his game pre-transform, decently confident this is Gilgy's match.
Heavy:
Marcello (DQ8) vs 4-Augustine (S3)
Marle (CT) vs Freyjadour (S5) - Not confident Marle can afford the haste turn, myself. Could be turned either way on this, but.
Edna Capone (SH3) vs 2-Garan (SH2) - Better boss.
Middle:
3-Meru (LoD) vs Adray Lasbard (SO3) -Gutcheck Meru.
Hellion (S1) vs Sara (BoF1) - Yup.
Lute (FE8) vs 2-Flay Gunnar (MK) - Agree with NEB here.
Light:
4-Kahn (BoF4) vs Janus (VP1)
Nei (S3) vs Laguna Loire (FF8) - The DL owes me a new desk.
Belle (S3) vs 2-Lowen (FE7)
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Don't see why Marle couldn't afford the haste turn. It doubles her speed and Freyjadour is only a little faster than her to begin with (both below average, Marle just by more but not super-slow), so she's certainly going to lap him then do whatever the heck she wants with the resulting extra turns.
Ryu has Protectors, which do half status. Unsure whether this should apply to stuff like Frog or not, hence headaches.
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I see Freyja as just below average and Marle as a slug. So... well, lemme see if I can math this out in my stupid way:
Freyjadour: 99% av. speed (201/203)
Marle: 70.8% av. speed
Freyja nabs his turn at clocktick 1.01, sets up heallock.
Marle nabs her turn at clocktick 1.412, casts Haste.
Freyja nabs next turn at clocktick 2.02...
Marle nabs her next turn at 2.12. Yeah, Freyja just beats her out to turn 2 to me.
Respecting Marle's speed even a bit more tilts this the other way, so I can definitely see it (and Marle would have a turn 1 win argument (Provoke first, then set up), except I do let Freyjadour halve status for this.)
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Godlike:
4-Kuja (FF9) vs Persephone (WA5) - Kuja. Out-heals anything that isn't chaingun of doom, and simply moves out of that with his awesome speed.
Miguel (CC) vs Id (XG) - Miguel
Arnaud G.Vasquez (WA4) vs Lugia (PKMN) - Arnaud. Hells yes
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Ryu (BoF3) - Gilgamesh. FF12 form demolishes.
Heavy:
Marcello (DQ8) vs 4-Augustine (S3) - Marcello
Marle (CT) vs Freyjadour (S5) - Freyjadour...think S5 rune choices are too much
Rayquaza (PKMN) vs Rapp (G1) - Rapp.
Edna Capone (SH3) vs 2-Garan (SH2) - Garan.
Middle:
3-Meru (LoD) vs Adray Lasbard (SO3) - Adray. Easy MP-kill, since Meru has average MP
Kurtis (Disgaea) vs Titania (FE9) - Kurtis. Superior boss all-around
Hellion (S1) vs Sara (BoF1) - Hellion. Starcraft 2 form demolishes.
Lute (FE8) vs 2-Flay Gunnar (MK) - Flay. MK2 form!
Light:
4-Kahn (BoF4) vs Janus (VP1) - Kahn. Needs to upgrade...seriously. MF6 form is broken. People always complain about this winning your way up demolishing seasons...so just upgrade him already!
Zahhak (S5) vs Cai (Brig) - Zahhak. Damn bosses
Nei (S3) vs Laguna Loire (FF8) - Laguna
Belle (S3) vs 2-Lowen (FE7) - Belle
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Godlike:
Miguel (CC) vs Id (XG)
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Ryu (BoF3)- I guess?
Heavy:
Marcello (DQ8) vs 4-Augustine (S3)[/b]- Don't think Augustine can parry his way out of trouble.
Marle (CT) vs Freyjadour (S5)- I think he OHKOs Marle on a crit, and she can't stop him before he gets to that point. Huh. Her best shot is statusing him before he gets that crit, which she may be able to do? Need to figure out how fast it'll take Freyjadour to crit.
Rayquaza (PKMN) vs Rapp (G1)
Edna Capone (SH3) vs 2-Garan (SH2)- Pending a check on Garan, but my memory says Edna's best was partly physical.
Middle:
3-Meru (LoD) vs Adray Lasbard (SO3)- Meru 4HKOs with her status weapon, and that probably is enough. Adray has to spend his first turn busting his MP or he is eating a nasty lump of damage from BSD, and he has to worry about the threat of status here.
Kurtis (Disgaea) vs Titania (FE9)- Kurtis kind of sucks, but so does Titania, sadly. I'll change my vote if his damage ends up being counterable.
Hellion (S1) vs Sara (BoF1)- Magic weakness. ouch.
Lute (FE8) vs 2-Flay Gunnar (MK)- Strong kneejerk.
Light:
4-Kahn (BoF4) vs Janus (VP1)- I want to argue Janus, but he is pretty bad in the DL.
Zahhak (S5) vs Cai (Brig)- Zahhak.
Nei (S3) vs Laguna Loire (FF8)
Belle (S3) vs 2-Lowen (FE7)- Belle sucks.
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Godlike:
4-Kuja (FF9) vs Persephone (WA5)
Miguel (CC) vs Id (XG)
Arnaud G.Vasquez (WA4) vs Lugia (PKMN)- I guess Arnaud IDs him? Lugia has always felt not at all Godlike to me.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Ryu (BoF3)- Pretty easily too. BoF 3 equips are stupid, so Gilgamesh isn't taking him out in 1 turn. Transform->smite
Heavy:
Marcello (DQ8) vs 4-Augustine (S3)
Marle (CT) vs Freyjadour (S5)- Yeah, she just quite doesn't double turn through haste
Rayquaza (PKMN) vs Rapp (G1)
Edna Capone (SH3) vs 2-Garan (SH2)- No comboing physicals together means Garan has better damage and Edna's stock goes to waste
Middle:
3-Meru (LoD) vs Adray Lasbard (SO3)- Well, Adray can block Paralysis, so any Meru status weapon hype is non-existant. Gut says Adray. Mdef doesn't do anything for status in either game, and Adray has a good number of them.
Kurtis (Disgaea) vs Titania (FE9)
Hellion (S1) vs Sara (BoF1)
Lute (FE8) vs 2-Flay Gunnar (MK)
Light:
4-Kahn (BoF4) vs Janus (VP1)
Zahhak (S5) vs Cai (Brig)
Nei (S3) vs Laguna Loire (FF8)
Belle (S3) vs 2-Lowen (FE7)
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I see Freyja as just below average and Marle as a slug. So... well, lemme see if I can math this out in my stupid way:
Freyjadour: 99% av. speed (201/203)
Marle: 70.8% av. speed
Freyja nabs his turn at clocktick 1.01, sets up heallock.
Marle nabs her turn at clocktick 1.412, casts Haste.
Freyja nabs next turn at clocktick 2.02...
Marle nabs her next turn at 2.12. Yeah, Freyja just beats her out to turn 2 to me.
Respecting Marle's speed even a bit more tilts this the other way, so I can definitely see it (and Marle would have a turn 1 win argument (Provoke first, then set up), except I do let Freyjadour halve status for this.)
At your speed numbers, Marle averages 105% speed along two turns. That's enough to lap Frey unless something's going wonky (0.708+1.416 = 2.114 turns, 0.99+0.99 = 1.98 turns, she should get a lapping there).
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She laps after her second turn by the numbers I'm using. 0.99 gets the clockticks at 1.01 and 2.02, Marle only edges a second turn it at 2.12 because Freyja's more than a third of the way to his next turn by the time Marle gets her first. It -does- go Frey->Marle->Frey->Marle->Marle, but she just can't pull that second turn before Frey unless I'm totally missing something. Might be! But don't think I am.
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You have to be at least average speed to be one third of the way into your next turn when 70% speed gets the first. Also, unless something's wildly off, I think spillover CT doesn't count into the next turn in any system I've ever heard off, which sounds like would be necessary for Frey to avoid the lapping (it benefits him far more than Marle in those first two turns). >_>
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Okay, lemme just toss this straight into here since now you're making me question my own numbers.
[15:46] > roll 201/203
[15:46] * +Hatbot --> "Taishyr rolls 201/203 and gets 0.99014778325123."
[15:47] > roll 100/99
[15:47] * +Hatbot --> "Taishyr rolls 100/99 and gets 1.010101010101."
*snip*
[15:48] > roll 100/70.8
[15:48] * +Hatbot --> "Taishyr rolls 100/70.8 and gets 1.4124293785311."
[15:49] > roll 100/141.24+K
[15:49] * +Hatbot --> "Taishyr rolls 100/141.24+1.4124293785311 and gets 2.1204441052374."
This is why I'm thinking it works out this way. Basically Frey's second turn comes on 1.01+1.01 = 2.02 clocktick, Marle's turn comes on 1.4+0.7 = 2.1 clockticks. (I know I'm repeating myself. In part I'm not entirely sure where you're coming from is why)
This also makes Frey about 1/3rd of the way to his next turn.
Re: spillover CT, uh? I'm just factoring this as if turns went off instantly (so Frey's CTB here, primarily 'cuz Marle is, otherwise it'd be more straightforward). So he doesn't need to worry about spillover CT unless I'm totally confused as to what you mean.
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I think I'm the one getting confused. Because, seriously, Marle laps -average- speed with Haste under the calculations I'm doing, but that doesn't happen under yours, and something -has- to be wrong at one of the ends - and, if it's on mine, I suspect I've been crazily overrating speed buffs for a long time.
EDIT: I also noticed that Frey's -default- speed is 179, which is well below the 201 he gets upon twinking his speed. If he's going speed-twinked, though, he should be factored against a speed-twinked average, too. Not to mention going for more speed could very well hurt his offense to the point he might risk not 2HKOing Marle without a double swing or a crit.
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He's not going for speed-twinked with the 201 speed, he's getting the boosts from Untold Clarity/Royal Paradise. (This came up in chat.) He could probably twink for speed -more-, but I would -definitely- be comparing it to other people twinking for speed. As it stands, though, those are his average best options from what I can tell due to the widespread stat boosting.
(This being said since the speed gap is so close, if you drop say Royal Paradise for being too fucking expensive or something then I thiiiink Marle takes the double from that?)
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Royal Paradise -is- pretty sketchy to be taken at least at full levels, yes. I honestly never even -got- it, since it also requires raising a bunch of other skills, but your mileage there. I'm still rather confused on how the same speed numbers seem to come up with results that distinct, though. I think I've just overrated speed buffs all my life then. =/
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How does Rapp beat Rayquaza? In pokemon level affects instant death (ID attacks wont work if you are even one level higher) and doesnt Rayquaza start on something like Level 70? I'd say that makes it immune to ID. I guess if you attack attackers status resistants Rapp IDS though. But I always take defenders definitions.
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I disallow Royal Paradise although I don't really think it matters. I doubt Freyjadour can get notably more or less speed with any other setup. In general, I would still consider the speed of a RP/UC Freyjadour against other PCs twinking for speed, but I'm way too lazy to make such an average.
Somewhat more to the point, I think the speed average Tai is using is a bit unfair to Marle. I would use an average where Crono has the Rainbow instead of Swallow, which allows her to lap average speed with Haste. (I don't consider this average for Swallow-Crono, of course!) It's somewhat subjective whether Swallow or Rainbow should be Crono's default, so I have no problem going with the one that doesn't screw over the rest of the cast, especially since for much of the game Marle is only a bit below average (8/9.7) and then Crono/Robo/Lucca randomly get +3 speed from lategame equips (and Swallow's even splitpath, I'd usually get the Safe Helm instead in-game, so... yeah).
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Alanna: I don't think most people give Ray that level edge? If he gets it he definitely wins for a variety of reasons (Hyper Beam should just OHKO first turn).
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Grandia's ID is not affected by levels at all, and I think Rayquaza is taken at L50 for stat topic purposes even. Not to mention that I'd call that a property of the attacks rather than a property of Pokémon levels. This argument was used in a sense to argue Mewtwo > Galcian before, even. You're free to take it however you want, but I'd say the evidence is against Ray there (heck, doesn't the perfect hit rate skill+ID combo own level differences quite nicely, for instance?).
But see Elfboy, giving Ray the level edge = he wins.
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The skill can miss, for what it's worth.
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Yeah, I know. Just the argument itself is kinda clusterfucky (level = ID RESISTANCE??!??!?? You could argue all day whether this was a property of Pokémon ID-inflicting skills or a property of Pokémon levels, so I just choose to take the former).
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I think the ID based on levels was only for RBY, later gens dropped it to simply randochance? NINJANINJANINJANINJA: Nope, I'm wrong! Heh. Eh... Iunno, myself, can see it either way here. More likely to consider it an aspect of PKMN ID skills, though, yeah.
Re: Royal Paradise, what option would Frey take otherwise? Triple Harmony (Atk/Vit/Agility)? Gives him the same speed boost, tho... so eh. I wouldn't see that as speed twinking, either, but YMMV (if he was taking both solely for speed boosts (so Agility/something else) then sure, but these give other buffs that're also useful for him...).
And yeah, Swallow>Rainbow for averages also came up. I... suppose I'm willing to take Swallow because his best damage is magic, if it were phys I'd go Swallow RAINBOW as well. I just kinda am querulous on Rainbow, myself (it's a long sidequesty thing, though CHRONO TRIGGER DIFFICULTY and the game also tells you of it so eeeeeh yeah) and Swallow's a decently quick diversion. Seeing it as splitpath's -totally- fair, mind, but. Eh, again, YMMV.
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Hmm, I definitely tend to assume that the player does all the Fated Hour quests because Lavos is a hellbitch when you're even a bit underlevelled (haha MT OHKO magic). At the very least you really, really, really want to do Rainbow Shell for the prism gear, and then Sun Stone is just so quick and easy if you figure out what you have to do (which isn't super-obvious, but eh). Swallow has the split-path thing and even on playthroughs where I've gotten it I've switched it out by the time I got the Shiva Edge, since the power boost is very important in-game. Way too many things resist lightning for Crono to rely entirely on magic. I sorta feel this goes for the DL too... and regardless would rather err on the side that again, doesn't screw over the rest of the cast (who are already being screwed over by the other lategame speed boosts).
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It's mainly over "oh wow Swallow is a sub-optimal equipment option in-game" because Crono's physical damage is worth more in a general sense than his magical game (DL turns this upside down) by the time Rainbow shows, and Swallow punts his physical game into suck by the time Rainbow is a factor. Swallow/Safe Helm split also is a blow against Swallow's in-game worth and so on. This may or may not be relevant to you, of course.
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Mmm. I found Swallow to be just fine, but CT DIFFICULTY PLOT. <_<;
(This being said, after calculations in chat we have concluded that Marle vs. Freyjadour is the MOST HILARIOUS MATCH EVER. Or at least until a new MOST HILARIOUS MATCH comes up.)
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Mmm. I found Swallow to be just fine, but CT DIFFICULTY PLOT. <_<;
(This being said, after calculations in chat we have concluded that Marle vs. Freyjadour is the MOST HILARIOUS MATCH EVER. Or at least until a new MOST HILARIOUS MATCH comes up.)
Banon vs. Shiho.
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Banon uses MF6 form, I think about the match no longer.
(This is a good point, though. HEAL SLAPFEST)
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Lute (FE8) vs 2-Flay Gunnar (MK): Don't see timed cards being countered in general, so probably Flay. Might need a closer look though.
That might be because timed cards can't be countered in-game.
To be more specific, timed cards can be countered but the counter target doesn't exist because it wasn't an attack by any character, so nothing happens.
GUST CODING
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Can't Flay just Raiden Charge -> OHKO Lute anyway?
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I think he just misses that, though it depends on what averages you use in both games. Doesn't really matter anyway.
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Nah. Lute's pdur is that of a Fire Emblem mage (~.64), so as long as the damage average for MK is ~1500 or below Flay should OHKO after Raiden charge.
Go go FE mage durability.
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Dhyer: Adray has freeze (Useless against Meru), Confusion (Will be blocked. Granted, it runs off his best skill), and silence. I don't think he has any thing to really threaten her with there.
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Godlike:
4-Kuja (FF9) vs Persephone (WA5): Boom. Superior on durabilty/damage (/speed?) even without the overkill.
Miguel (CC) vs Id (XG): Think his victory on durability seals it?
Arnaud G.Vasquez (WA4) vs Lugia (PKMN): Apparently Lugia can't 2HKO here, which means Arnaud Slows down Lugia and gets in 3 turns. This isn't enough to ID Lugia but it *IS* enough to Sleep -> ID/otherwise beat.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Ryu (BoF3): Halve status -> Transform into a better boss than Gilgamesh, I guess.
Heavy:
Marcello (DQ8) vs 4-Augustine (S3): Augustine is outclassed here. Marello is a competent boss.
Marle (CT) vs Freyjadour (S5): I guess Marle wins this via the haste-healing shenanigans.
Rayquaza (PKMN) vs Rapp (G1): ID. Bah humbug.
Edna Capone (SH3) vs 2-Garan (SH2): Was she magic? Yeah I'm gonna check later but going with others. Edit: Snow corrects me. Thanks.
Middle:
3-Meru (LoD) vs Adray Lasbard (SO3): I suppose more healing suffices? I'm really not sure here.
Kurtis (Disgaea) vs Titania (FE9): Better statwise I think?
Hellion (S1) vs Sara (BoF1): Ouch. Sorry Sara. Copper Flesh lock.
Lute (FE8) vs 2-Flay Gunnar (MK): FE mage physical durabilty is painful.
Light:
4-Kahn (BoF4) vs Janus (VP1): KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN [/obligaroty]
Zahhak (S5) vs Cai (Brig)
Nei (S3) vs Laguna Loire (FF8)
Belle (S3) vs 2-Lowen (FE7)
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Edna Capone (SH3) vs 2-Garan (SH2): Was she magic? Yeah I'm gonna check later but going with others.
Goddammit people, Edna has a 3HKO physical, better overall durability (particularly, her mdur is better than his pdur) and speed than Garan. That's more than enough to own him.
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Hotoke Garan has 6980 HP and deals 380 damage with Black Vortex
Edna has 1670 HP and deals 85 damage with Black Hole...
He has well over 4 times the health and deals well over 4 times the damage. Seems pretty straightforward from that angle (i.e., the one I take!).
Otherwise...mmm...
Edna is 26 agility (below average for that point - granted, fast recharge but slower first action than this indicates), physical dealing 70 damage. Average HP are listed as 192, although the party used ends up being below average (Mao and Slim Hilda). Ricardo's about average, and he is a little over 210 or so at that point, so she has a barely 4-shotability vs. Garan. Average damage...probably faces around 100-150 or so per character. I know she can be wrecked in a single combo pretty quickly.
Garan faces 610 HP and 340 damage in the Hotoke form. He's average, so faster than Edna at base.
2.05x HP for Garan taken at that value. 62% damage with magic.
1.366 HP for Edna (assuming average damage 125 per character). 36% damage with her physical, assuming 192 HP.
Taken at those numbers, Garan wins it. This changes heavily based on what you take against them, so either way seems pretty fair (more stuff held against Garan? Less taken against Edna? etc.)
Defenses aren't factored into durability, but I believe both forms are pretty close to average, so it shouldn't make a huge difference.
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Hotoke Garan has 6980 HP and deals 380 damage with Black Vortex
Edna has 1670 HP and deals 85 damage with Black Hole...
He has well over 4 times the health and deals well over 4 times the damage. Seems pretty straightforward from that angle (i.e., the one I take!).
Otherwise...mmm...
Edna is 26 agility (below average for that point - granted, fast recharge but slower first action than this indicates), physical dealing 70 damage. Average HP are listed as 192, although the party used ends up being below average (Mao and Slim Hilda). Ricardo's about average, and he is a little over 210 or so at that point, so she has a barely 4-shotability vs. Garan. Average damage...probably faces around 100-150 or so per character. I know she can be wrecked in a single combo pretty quickly.
Garan faces 610 HP and 340 damage in the Hotoke form. He's average, so faster than Edna at base.
2.05x HP for Garan taken at that value. 62% damage with magic.
1.366 HP for Edna (assuming average damage 125 per character). 36% damage with her physical, assuming 192 HP.
Taken at those numbers, Garan wins it. This changes heavily based on what you take against them, so either way seems pretty fair (more stuff held against Garan? Less taken against Edna? etc.)
Defenses aren't factored into durability, but I believe both forms are pretty close to average, so it shouldn't make a huge difference.
SH2's boss stat topics are generally a thing I disagree with, being both underlevelled and, as far as I've seen, not factoring either offensive boosts your party can have (Warlock Earrings, Demon Earrings etc) nor buffs and combos. I already do factor these against Edna, of course (although she's lucky that she doesn't have to face the damage boosters, I think), and I think Dhyer -does- factor combos into SH3 boss durability while not doing the same to SH2 boss durability in spite of combos being easier to come by and setup freely in SH2 than 3. Not to mention that's Garan 3, which... eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh, not giving the third, optional, already dead guy form (GHOST VINSFELD HYPE YESYESYES) credit there. To add insult to injury, Hotoke Garan is an endgame sidequest, and those almost uniformly have to deal with Seraphic Radiance evil, which becomes available as soon as they open up. <_<
EDIT: Not to mention all Garan forms have to face the fury of SH2 full MT buffs and a higher damage average -in a vacuum- (running off against roughly the same boss HP scale as SH3) while Edna faces only ST buffs at the point she's fought.
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The levels for Hotoke Garan are 50. Nicholai is at 33. The endgame levels are 55, so 50 makes sense for me for Hotoke Garan. The damage average of 340 is endgame level (358) and does not take into account Jutendouji, Dark Seraphim, Great Question, Ultimate Weapons, etc. (and those alone drop the average lot), due to them...uh...not being available yet. I know Fenrir personally did take a strong set-up into the averages for damage for the bosses. I wouldn't consider the notes for Hotoke Garan underleveled (in which case, if you do, then that's odd, as most people view 55 as too high for endgame, so....honestly, I'd also call 19 at Edna a little low, and the SH3 notes I'd call lower in general, but I digress), and there is some consideration for higher damages in there. Now, combos are not included, as far as I know, but those should cancel out for both bosses (I know I killed Edna in a single combo, so combos hurt both their durability about equally - granted, in terms of set-ups, yes, Hotoke Garan has more to be held against him, and it does depend on when you do.
Edna does have to face some damage boosters - I forget which one, but you can get something crazy by that time. Granted, not as much as Hotoke Garan. Damage vs. Edna...I'll go pull my old save, but I'm fairly certain average damage is 100-150 or so, as noted previously.
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The levels for Hotoke Garan are 50. Nicholai is at 33. The endgame levels are 55, so 50 makes sense for me for Hotoke Garan. The damage average of 340 is endgame level (358) and does not take into account Jutendouji, Dark Seraphim, Great Question, Ultimate Weapons, etc. (and those alone drop the average lot), due to them...uh...not being available yet. I know Fenrir personally did take a strong set-up into the averages for damage for the bosses. I wouldn't consider the notes for Hotoke Garan underleveled (in which case, if you do, then that's odd, as most people view 55 as too high for endgame, so....honestly, I'd also call 19 at Edna a little low, and the SH3 notes I'd call lower in general, but I digress), and there is some consideration for higher damages in there. Now, combos are not included, as far as I know, but those should cancel out for both bosses (I know I killed Edna in a single combo, so combos hurt both their durability about equally - granted, in terms of set-ups, yes, Hotoke Garan has more to be held against him, and it does depend on when you do.
Mind, I'm talking underlevelledness as a general thing, not specifically for Hotoke - 50 is a reasonable level to take him at, although I think I was 52 - but I hardly ever switch parties in SH games as a rule of thumb. A level or two miiiiiiiiightbe in order to account for Seraphic Radiance, but that's not the matter, really (mainly, it may even be a distinction between just using your -main- party for averages, which is my general take, or using all the members, used or unused, which brings averages down due to benched members getting less XP. Typically, with a low-rotation party, the averages pan out such that even the likes of Geppetto routinely outpace just about all bosses in SH2 if he's one of your main contenders). For final weapons, -some- should be available by the time you face Hotoke (Jutendouji and Kurando's final weapon are obviously -not- available, but Yuri's weapon, or Karin's, or Joachim's or Anastasia's... yeah, they're obtainable by then and you don't even really have to fight anything in particular). Also, I dunno, but Fenrir's setup seemed fairly clearly weak - at least offensively - for bosses. For the combo thing, I agree - and just as you killed Edna in a single combo, I killed Hotoke Garan in a single combo too. >_> Those things happen!
Edna does have to face some damage boosters - I forget which one, but you can get something crazy by that time. Granted, not as much as Hotoke Garan
I think she has to face a single equip of Warlock's Earrings (I believe Magic Mind's Eye is post-Edna, she doesn't have to face Ricardo's offensive buffs either, if you care to include those - while Garan has to face Lucia's offensive boosts that stack with buffs and all). She's better off than Garan, who has to face at least two Warlock's Earrings, at least one Mind's Eye, at least one Demon's Earring, maybe a Magic Mind's Eye... not to mention Hotoke Garan specifically gets to face, if you're so inclined, storebought Third Keys. Not sure how I feel about -those-, but they're not necessary to make Hotoke Garan awful - he already manages that by himself. >_> Also not sure on how I feel about the Mind's Eyes either, but the Earrings are plenty relevant by themselves.
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Rapp's ID can miss, but it's really really accurate, like 90% or so. 20 extra levels for Rayquaza really shouldn't be enough to make it fail, generally.
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Worth noting at least that a good chunk of those extra SH 2 damage accessories and buffs are included in my boss topic (Which is why I end up with an average that's about 40% higher than Fenrir's despite the fact that I took recharge into account)! If you can use Technical Ring, that helps a decent chunk (Not good with SH 2 rings, so I used what I can use it game reliably enough). He's about 1.5 PC HP to me, and Technical Rings put him at about 1.2. Of course, needless to say, taking ME's into account is so far beyond what I can do that I would in no way ever consider it. Edna probably has more HP, but my gut reaction is that it wouldn't be enough to me to take up Garan's 50% damage edge. I could well be wrong on Edna's HP though given unlike Garan, don't have solid numbers for it.
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Wait, why is Marle/Freyjadour the most hilarious match ever? ;o
Anyways. Marle > Freyja and Flay > Lute is all I can vote on this week. ;o
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Edna has 1670 HP. That's...a pretty solid, and 100% accurate, number.
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Marle vs. Freyja is hilarious because going straight by the numbers, if you take Rainbow over Swallow... Freyja still beats Marle to turn 2.
But doing that AND INCLUDING THE DOREMI ELVES IN THE AVERAGES FOR S5 is JUST ENOUGH to get Marle to turn 2 first.
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I don't quite see the Marle haste hype either. Freyja 2HKOs, and beats her to turn 2 even if she hastes herself, unless you take all of S5's cast without skills. Which I guess I can see a reason for but wouldn't immediately agree with either way!
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Edna does have to face some damage boosters - I forget which one, but you can get something crazy by that time. Granted, not as much as Hotoke Garan
I think she has to face a single equip of Warlock's Earrings (I believe Magic Mind's Eye is post-Edna, she doesn't have to face Ricardo's offensive buffs either, if you care to include those - while Garan has to face Lucia's offensive boosts that stack with buffs and all). She's better off than Garan, who has to face at least two Warlock's Earrings, at least one Mind's Eye, at least one Demon's Earring, maybe a Magic Mind's Eye... not to mention Hotoke Garan specifically gets to face, if you're so inclined, storebought Third Keys. Not sure how I feel about -those-, but they're not necessary to make Hotoke Garan awful - he already manages that by himself. >_> Also not sure on how I feel about the Mind's Eyes either, but the Earrings are plenty relevant by themselves.
That's not counting the silly that's a FE'd (Or just Arc Rage from someone else) Lucia'd Energy Charged EXTREME Seraphic Radiance physical! And Energy Charge has a fast enough recharge that Yuri could probably use that and a physical before Garan gets his first turn.
...Nevermind that Spikes also exist, if you want to disrespect SH2 bosses further. Also, just to note, when fighting Dog Shrine Garan, Kurando is auto-equipped with his best weapon... That this is somewhat bad, as it also takes off all your ring boosters, for some reason.
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Belle (S3) vs 2-Lowen (FE7) Only match I can vote on. And it's probably the saddest one in this block.
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Banon uses MF6 form, I think about the match no longer.
(This is a good point, though. HEAL SLAPFEST)
...but Banon isn't even -in- MF6... >.>;;
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Bacon is obviously a misspelling. <_<