The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Luther Lansfeld on March 08, 2008, 05:55:21 AM
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Godlike:
Ted (S4) vs Jade (BoF1)
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX)
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4)
Ellen Kirshima (Pers) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)
Heavy:
Claus F. Lester (ToP) vs Gades (Lufias)
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3)
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea)
Demi (PS4) vs Kharg (AtL4)
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2)
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8)
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1)
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7)
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2)
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)
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Godlike:
Ted (S4) vs Jade (BoF1)- Jade can tank through any three of Ted's spells. I'm pretty sure that's all he needs to do.
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX)- Extremely sure on this, even though I don't normally vote on ToS due to not finishing it.
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4)- Less sure on this.
Ellen Kirshima (Pers) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)- Ellen without MP is sad.
Heavy:
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3)- Refuse to think on this.
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea)- Coinflip. Could be argued.
Demi (PS4) vs Kharg (AtL4)- Assuming Kharg's faster here. He can't really heal lock with a physical+Windblade Fury even with thunder coatings. Two windblade furies heal lock.. for like two turns. Yeah. He needs the Big Owl here.
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2)- Karin's outclassed by good middle fighters. Peter resisting fire just makes things worse fo rher.
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8)- This is pending a check on Lute's evasion, but her physical defense I remember being really bad in the DL.
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1)- Leaning Guy here. It depends on where I put BoF1 average HP at. As always Sara offense/speed hype gets zero respect from me.
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7)- Don't know.
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)- don't know or care if I'm wrong here.
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2)- Spar fucking sucks at handling anyone with direct offense. He can't heal his way out of trouble and he definitely isn't outslugging with Ice 2.
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)
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Godlike:
Ted (S4) vs Jade (BoF1): OHKOs, I'm thinking.
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX): No comment.
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4): Think she OHKOs with Bhairava. Heal locks with it certainly.
Heavy:
Claus F. Lester (ToP) vs Gades (Lufias): Buff->OHKO. Tank whatever Claus tries to throw at him.
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3): Uhh. PC form may get ID'd, boss form may get OHKOd. I'm not too sure.
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea): Significantly outdamages post MR.
Demi (PS4) vs Kharg (AtL4): Kaboom.
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2): Peter's a good physical slugfester. Karin doesn't really have anything else here.
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8): DIE FE. DIE.
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1): Healing IP was starting armor? Yeah.
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7): DIE FE. DIE.
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2): Gotta figure a fast mage beats one who isn't? Eh.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6): Splat.
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Heavy:
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea)
Vastly more durable with Heal.
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2)
Splat.
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7)
Uh.....
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2)
Think he can swing this by resisting fire? Close one.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
My gut is that Frank's damage beats out Ricardo's regen, and the healing is rather sad at endgame.
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)
Lani.
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Godlike:
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4) - Bhairava+Genocide... likely... take this? I think? Arguably doesn't matter, second form can wall Wren unless she had some way around the phys-reflect. Such a sad, sad match. Damn. Wonder if she beats form 1, though...? Mrrr, doubt it, but.
Ellen Kirshima (Pers) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs) - Ellen, unlike Nate, has no use for her P1 form since it doesn't null Dark. Like it matters here.
Heavy:
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3) - ...I.... um, lemme think, leaning Nina, may be forgetting something but my respect for Boss Yuber speed isn't present and PC Yuber eats Death.
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea) -...Thinking.
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2) - No.
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8) - JABBERWOCKY FINISH.
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1) - Thinking.
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7) - Mmm.
Light:
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3) - Okay. If someone proves conclusively to me that Frank wins, I'll switch votes. But out of the two SH scrubs, I'll take the one which doesn't annoy me until proven otherwise. Also, 3rd ring hype.
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2) - Low Middle physicaler vs. High Light mage. Physicaler goes first. Bye, Spar.
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6) - Bang. Lani is glad I've begun revising my opinion on mid-game bosses. Not sure if I'll keep voting this way, but while I work this out, sure.
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Godlike:
Ted (S4) vs Jade (BoF1)- Jade
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX)- Yuna
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4)- Jenna
Ellen Kirshima (Pers) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)- Blar, Yuri might take it. His SH 1 dark damage is better than I thought.
Heavy:
Claus F. Lester (ToP) vs Gades (Lufias)- Gades
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3)- Nina. Might OHKO the boss form, IDs the PC form. Also, I'd consider Yuber at least locked into his PC form, since the boss form likely loses to Rutee. 3000 HP is really, really bad.
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea)- Surt
Demi (PS4) vs Kharg (AtL4)- Kharg
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2)- Peter
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8)- Bright
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1)- Sara
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7)- Canas?
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2)- Gepetto. Yeah, he 2HKOs anyways.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)- Ricardo.
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2)- Unsure. Depends a lot on the effectiveness of BoF 2 buffs.
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)- Lani
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Heavy:
Claus F. Lester (ToP) vs Gades (Lufias) - Outslugs with Aska. Gooooo endgame L2 Gades <_<
Middle:
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1) - EDIT: ... Right
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7) - For all that there are views that could give this to Nino... I give her a bit of a level penalty, which enough to tip this to Canas.
Light:
(Serously need to actually get through BoF2 sometime)
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)
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Ted (S4) vs Jade (BoF1): Right. Jade's probably too durable even if Ted could heal or cast Judgement under Silent Lake. As he can't...
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX): Played enough ToS to vote on this!
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4): Bhairava may not be OHKOing outright initially... but Debilitate. And Wren can't press his offence through the form with it since he needs to heal then.
Heavy:
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3): A bit faster, Eight Devil OHKOs.
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea): Vulcanus' damage isn't really much good at all. Also wins the speed tiebreak (goes first in-game, while Disgaea enemies go second) and... yep, scratching my head as to what you'd see Vulcanus doing better honestly.
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2): Overwhelms the regen.
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8): 2HKOs, gies first, and even slightly above average accuracy puts away Lute evade hype. Lute can't 2HKO back. EDIT: Bright's below average accuracy if anything, so yeah. Lute gets the needed dodge to survive two rounds, and four spells = dead dragon.
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1): Limit healing is fairly simple to overwhelm. It never fully repairs damage, and this fight is way too long. Sara being faster doesn't help matters.
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7): Luna. 2HKOs, Isn't 3HKOed. Without Luna it's a good fight, I intend to numbercrunch it.
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2): Huh. Did not realise Gepetto's damage was that good.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3): Oh hell. See below!
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2): Faster, isn't doubled, better offence, overwhelms healing.
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6): Splat.
Ricardo has a 9-8. Ignoring recharge times for now. Frank does 48% to Ricardo six times, 40% otherwise. Ricardo regens 10% a turn. Heals 34%. 4HKOs Frank.
Ricardo opens with a Fated Day's End. Ricardo and Frank then generally swap attacking and healing for... a long time. Frank can make small headway, but not enough before he runs out of Fast Snowball.
After seven exchanges, Ricardo doubleturns. If, at this point, Frank has used five Snowballs and two physicals, Ricardo will be at 56% at the start of his double. He regens twice and gets to 36%, attacking both times. Frank attacks him once more, Ricardo finishes the job.
... granted, this could all change if it turns out Frank's crit rate is actually worth something. OK suggested not, and he's the Frank fan, so I'll take his word for it. Excellent fight.
Now I remember Doubles exist. Okay. <_<
Starting again! Shorter fight now at least, I... think.
Ricardo: Fated Day's End
Frank: Fast Snowball (48%, 38%)
Ricaro: Arc Cure (4)
Frank: Fast Snowball (52, 42)
Ricardo [can double]: Arc Cure (8)
Frank [ditto]: Fast Snowball (56, 46)
Ricardo: Arc Cure (12)
Frank: Double, kills. Well it's borderline, technically, but little things like Frank's crit rate!!! and Ricardo's regen rounding down give him this.
Well, what if Ricardo doubles earlier? He can't. Doubles are laggy; if he does double, for any reason, well... it won't be killing Frank, and Frank will then doubleturn, attack once, then use a double of his own, which is death regardless of Ricardo HP.
Only other option I can see is...
Ricardo: Fated Day's End
Frank: Fast Snowball (48%, 38%)
Ricaro: Fated Day's End
Frank: Fast Snowball (86, 76)
Ricardo [can double]: Fated Day's End -> Hot Blood... fatal! Barely! But it is.
So Frank avoids this by not attacking that last turn, but this just lets Ricardo heal and get the double he needs for next round.
SHORT FORM: Ricardo goes first, gets a double by turn 3, 4HKOs before being 3HKOed. Frank can avoid giving him that double by not attacking him, but this just means Ricardo gets his double one turn later, and Frank wastes a turn utterly since he has no buffs or healing.
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Godlike:
Ted (S4) vs Jade (BoF1) - This is pretty much a lol.
Heavy:
Claus F. Lester (ToP) vs Gades (Lufias) - Eugh.
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3) - Goes first with Eight Devil and OHKOs. Nina2 physical durability is fucking awful, and the fact she beat Hojo is a testament to how fucking horrible Hojo really is.
Middle:
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8) - Depends on who goes first, methinks? Lute should 3HKO and Bright should 2HKO, so.
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1) - Uh, starting armor is his healing IP one? Um yeah no.
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7) - Eh, I guess it feels right, Canas spoils Nino well.
Light:
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2) - Ugh.
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6) - Gimme.
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Godlike:
Ted (S4) vs Jade (BoF1) - Tanks
Heavy:
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3) - Beats PC form
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea) - Better all around
Middle:
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8) - Think so
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1) - Need real healing
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7) - @#%^@#%^
Nino is superior to Canas in every way except for an armor avoiding spell! Nino has sick evade (Lyn has 78, she has 74.), but if I did the stuff right then Canas has like 150 hit, or 75% chance to hit her. Not missing until third attack and he obviously 2HKOs with a resistance evading move. Nino easily doubles so she needs to 3HKO or crit (She won't be missing). Sadly, Canas is a resist beast as well, so Nino only hits him for like 10. ALSO, Canas is 3.6 speed slower than Nino using Elf Fire, so... that's not an option either since she misses double by .4.
So yeah, despite having more Power, a shitload more skill, shitload more speed, more resist, TEN more luck, and 20 more evade, Nino loses simply because of how Dark Mages gets Luna and Anima mages get shit. (Trading 8 power for resistance ignoring is more than worth it. As is trading some accuracy for life draining.)
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2) - Ha ha Gepetto
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2) - LOL Lowen
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6) - RAPE
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Godlike:
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX) - Even if I could vote on this match, I refuse to.
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4) - Wren has trouble mustering enough damage to get past the Bhairava phases. And even then, if he doesn't heal, a single smack will likely kill him afterwards. Pity he -needs- to attack to get through said phase to begin with...
Heavy:
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3)
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2) Karin sucks against decent fighters with fire resist. This is relatively obvious.
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1) Guy? Meet BoF1 Lategame Boss Durability.
Light:
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2) - as little Lowen respect as I had...dear god. Spar SUCKS. MASSIVELY.
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Godlike:
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX) - Yuna wins without aeons through amusingly hilarious means. <3 Darktouch weapons and PRAY HYPE. *bans aeons for this match for no real reason*
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4)
Heavy:
Claus F. Lester (ToP) vs Gades (Lufias)
Middle:
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1)
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7)
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2)
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Godlike:
Ted (S4) vs Jade (BoF1)- Tough luck, Ted. Probably could have stayed in Godlike longer if he didn't have to face like 2 uber Godlikes in a row.
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX)-Kratos is a low Godlike. Guess who's uber Godlike?
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4)-Debilitate, Destroy.
Ellen Kirshima (Pers) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)
Heavy:
Claus F. Lester (ToP) vs Gades (Lufias)- My Klarth respect is pretty darn high. He gets everything else that Cless doesn't, basically.
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3)- Ahahaha. Wins either way to me.
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea)- Head. Ache.
Demi (PS4) vs Kharg (AtL4)- Usual Big Owl smash.
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2)- Fire resist vs. weakish fire damage.
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1)-......
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2)- Gepetto's damage is so horrible that MIA can fire off her spells in time.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)- Yeah, still think Ricardo is a better Light.
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2)- SPAR.
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)- I remember Lani now! And I'm leaning her because FOR THE LEFT SIDE!
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Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7) - @#%^@#%^
Nino is superior to Canas in every way except for an armor avoiding spell! Nino has sick evade (Lyn has 78, she has 74.), but if I did the stuff right then Canas has like 150 hit, or 75% chance to hit her. Not missing until third attack and he obviously 2HKOs with a resistance evading move. Nino easily doubles so she needs to 3HKO or crit (She won't be missing). Sadly, Canas is a resist beast as well, so Nino only hits him for like 10. ALSO, Canas is 3.6 speed slower than Nino using Elf Fire, so... that's not an option either since she misses double by .4.
So yeah, despite having more Power, a shitload more skill, shitload more speed, more resist, TEN more luck, and 20 more evade, Nino loses simply because of how Dark Mages gets Luna and Anima mages get shit. (Trading 8 power for resistance ignoring is more than worth it. As is trading some accuracy for life draining.)
Don't forget that Canas gets WTA against Nino to boot.
Need to finish Gades Tower sometime this weekend, though I strongly suspect he's not beating ToPa Claus.
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Since I think I might be changing my vote on this, and it's um...well, the only vote so far in this direction, it's math bombardment! Yes.
Gepetto over Mia.
Okay, Wind Cane Mia 4HKOs Gepetto. Convieniently, Lunar 2 kill point is 680 and SH 2 HP average is 675. Easy comparison. Mia does 210, Gepetto cuts her damage by 13, so she does less than 200 and Gepetto has 606 HP. Now...Gepetto just likely straight 2HKOs, even with Recharge times. Holy Cast+Advent does 790 SH damage, which translates into 217.6 Lunar Damage (SH kill point is 835, Lunar HP average is 230). Mia's Mdef is 7 above average, so she cuts the 2 spells by 6.4 each assuming its subtractive, so she takes 204.8. She has 203 HP. Yep, she's 2HKOed, and she at best 3HKOs back.
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Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX): ;_;
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8): T_T
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7): Seems easy enough.
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6): Seems bloody obvious.
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Yeah Hinode, the thing is that if you take Nino at 20/15, she would completely rape Canas even with WTA if they had equal weapons. 7 more speed, 10 more luck, couple more resist, more skill, 25 more evade, and so on more than makes up for it unless it's far stronger than I imagined. It might be a good match, but I'm almost positive doubles + evade would give it to Nino. Like if Canas had to use Flux and Nino used Fire/Thunder. However, there isn't any reason to NOT give Canas Nos or Luna, so his uber dark weapons crush the little girl.
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How is Bright beating Lute? Lute has really good damage and evasion. Bright's damage is actually really bad, one of the worst damage dealers in the game since most others get more swings and a fully sharpened weapon.
Also note I take FE8 at 20/20 in the DL due to the tower and unlimited leveling.
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Bright has average damage, roughly. Monsters with high Str are actually fully capable of holding their own with L16 weapons for damage. He has two swings, which is standard, and high Str. Average damage 2HKOs Lute at any reasonable level.
Giving Lute slightly higher levels would help her evade some, but Bright does have a bit above average accuracy...
No, wait, he doesn't. Looks like the stat topic compared him with Accuracy set to an average of PCs, many of whom don't have it set. Well, I don't agree with that! So yeah, Lute wins, since she'll survive two hits, and hence get four of her own, which is fatal.
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Lute doesn't really have good evasion. She has 35% evasion when the average is 27%. Above average, yes. And to get that extra Accuracy, Bright is having to make a trade off anyways, so why should that he held against him. His best trade off is MRes, but giving his HP and above average MDef, that shouldn't be too problematic. Of course, if she needs 4 full hits to win, he can use the AoE Rune to avoid at least 1 counter.
And why would levels be higher due to unlimited leveling? That would imply that basically every single DL game minus FE 7 and VH should be taken at max level for everything. They all have unlimited leveling.
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Lute doesn't really have good evasion. She has 35% evasion when the average is 27%.
35% sounds pretty good to me. It means you dodge one in every three hits.
And to get that extra Accuracy, Bright is having to make a trade off anyways, so why should that he held against him.
To get that extra speed, Ryu needs to lose a lot of def, so why should that be held against him.
If you twink for a DL stat, you should get scaled against the rest of your cast twinking for that stat. Otherwise you run into nonsense like whole casts halving damage types. Bright does not deserve hype for 04 Skl / B accuracy, ever.
I agree with the "things shouldn't be 20/20" comment but it doesn't matter, Lute's evade is good enough at 20/15.
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If you twink for a DL stat, you should get scaled against the rest of your cast twinking for that stat.
...please tell me I'm misreading, because as far as I can tell what you're suggesting here is that you create a seperate average to base things off in this situation which is not only completely bizarre, but runs utterly opposing to the idea of using averages in the first place.
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Infinite levelling eh? Level 13000 Elc for Myria slayer!
35% sounds pretty good to me. It means you dodge one in every three hits.
I think what Dhyer is getting at here is that Lute has 35% evade... against enemies with 73% accuracy. But Bright's accuracy is better than 73% so Lute doesn't dodge 35% of the time. Mind, I don't know how good is accuracy is in practice so I'm not getting into it.
I'm a little saddened that you'd be so dismissive of someone who is making a logical debate, but eh. We all know this is a touchy issue for us. FE in the DL and all that good stuff. (DL being crazy silly over something rather minor. Have I mentioned I love this place?)
As far as casts with changable stats? We should probably take the best default setting and let scale them to that. Yes, this means that casts that can shift their stats around to meet certain demands get better in the DL. The idea is that they have to make a logical sacrifice to get a bonus somewhere else. And if they can do that, more power to them I guess. If FE can be awesome because they get counters, casts with stats they can move around can be awesome for versatility. Hey, if Ryu can get uber speed by completely nerfing his defense thats fine by me. Of course that should be his default in the DL then because of his dueling style <_<. I suppose you could make a few different averages but that could get messy.
Anywho. Going to say Yuber over Nina I suppose. I'm uncomfortable with the PC form but eh, it likely OHKOs her soundly enough.
Also going to change to Geppetto > Mia. Just trusting Dhyer on this one or something.
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Well, if evaded 35% more than her cast it might be good, but with the endgame numbers, she only evades 10% more often.
If all stat changes should be held against that, it creates a major headache. If you want to hold up to an Accuracy twink averages, then every other average changes as others drop some skill in order to twink for accuracy too.
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I'm a little saddened that you'd be so dismissive of someone who is making a logical debate, but eh.
More like Dhyer is dismissive of the style Alanna presumably uses. A lot of us DO take evasion based on in-game. We've hashed out this debate before and I see no reason to go through it again. You guys have your way, we have ours.
As far as casts with changable stats? We should probably take the best default setting and let scale them to that. Yes, this means that casts that can shift their stats around to meet certain demands get better in the DL. The idea is that they have to make a logical sacrifice to get a bonus somewhere else. And if they can do that, more power to them I guess. Hey, if Ryu can get uber speed by completely nerfing his defense thats fine by me. Of course that should be his default in the DL then because of his dueling style <_<. I suppose you could make a few different averages but that could get messy.
Well, obviously I disagree pretty strongly with this whole stance. It's fair enough I suppose, but I don't find these separate averages messy at all (usually it's just one or two things that need to be changed), and I DO find things like naked speed hype and BoF5 damage halving nonsense to be offensive.
In the case of Bright, he's below average Skill, below average Accuracy skill. I can't see hyping this.
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Well, it's a method of scaling that I find...pretty unfair, since it leaves some casts with things like 40% average as their average. It also tends to make many of their DL opponents have notably more accuracy issues than they had in game at that. By the same notes, Lute doesn't have a 100% in game accuracy, Bright would have 16% more evasion, and Bright naturally has better than a 73% hit rate (Granted, not by much!).
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And I find a method of scaling that gives Tia more evade than Lucius pretty unfair too, not to mention bafflingly unintuitive. And I have no problem with FE PCs being more evasive than S3 enemies.
Again, we've been over this.
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Lucius has subpar evasion. It's odd to think that Feena has bad defense, because Grandia enemies suck so much at doing damage, but she does. Lucius gets hit more enough than his fellows in game, so an average enemy would in fact have less trouble hitting him.
Tia also gets balanced by having her never missing physical in game now get evaded by some.
And we'll probably go over it again! Several times! Without anything ever changing.
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I'm a little saddened that you'd be so dismissive of someone who is making a logical debate, but eh. We all know this is a touchy issue for us. FE in the DL and all that good stuff. (DL being crazy silly over something rather minor. Have I mentioned I love this place?)
Being dismissive to something that is irrelevent to the views that YOU KNOW THE PERSON DOESN'T HAVE AND YOU ARGUE THEM ANYWAY sounds like it's being dismissive toward someone's views more than ignoring someone who does that to you, dontcha think?
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Tia's a bad example because she provably has 0% evasion in game (Capsules have all the evade, PC's have none). I don't much care, though I tend to side with the PC's being better. To use the example I've argued before: I don't agree with scaling evade or elemental resistance outside of rare cases (OB elemental resists is.. the only one off the top of my head actually, and that's a special case).
How was FE7 evade scaled? Against random enemies on Limstella's map?
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FE7 evade is scaled against Limstella herself. Scaling it against randoms in the GBA games often leads to things like Lyn having an average of 90% evasion or something? GBA FE grunts are impressively bad.
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If you don't scale evasion, then why scale durability? Grandia PCs are extremely tanky in game, and average characters in Xenosaga 2 take much longer than characters in other games to kill even randoms, and yet all the the damage, HP, and defense are all evened out. OB elements gets scaled because they are stats; that's what really separates them from other DL games.
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But we do scale durability based on in-game performance. A person with 120% above average S3 defense certainly takes hits better than a person with 120% above average defense in WA2 assuming they both have the same HP. The idea of an average is getting the minimum streamlining needed to make crosscast comparisons and mulling possible, but the moment where having a percentage is more important than considering how well a stat works in-game, then something's going awry.
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But a completely average person in Grandia might take 10 hits while an average person in Suikoden might take 3-4. I'm not saying throw out how the stat works, but that average should be average. Getting hit more than most of your other PCs in game is a bad thing, even if that still translates to 20% evasion. Bright is a really good example of that. 16% Evasion in S3 is pretty bad. Even 30% evasion is notably below average and results in you taking more damage than the average PC does.
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What you're thinking of Snow is spread, not average. Evasion has the same exact treatment.
This issues becomes nearly identical to defense when you get a situation like Assault Buster, which is dependent on opponent evasion for damage. Its damage in the DL is taken against average enemy evasion. If you were to use it on Yulie, would she take less because she has some evade? Or should she take more because she notably sucks at evasion? #2 there seems more reasonable to me (and you, Snow. We discussed this in chat once). But then someone like Jerin or whomever from a game with no evasion. Should they take every single hit from AB because they are from a game that has no evade stat? Thats like saying that VH Or Disgaea PCs should take insane damage from it for having no speed stat. In both cases, you're letting a character hit a weakness against an entire cast just because the systems are different. This is the logical extension of taking "literal evade". Its no different from saying T.G. Cid has worse defense than Luc because Luc has a defense stat and Cid doesn't.
Evade stats are like OB elemental resistance stats. You can suck at them or you can be badass at them, but they shouldn't make an entire cast better just because it exists and the enemies suck.
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I suppose I don't agree with scaling anything besides straight up stats and most types of damage (Gravity/non HP/SP damage are different issues entirely) to an extent. FE Evade is functionally a stat like OB elements, but.. mm. I see where Dhyer's coming from on this, FE evade is just a durability stat like defense. Though you can certainly argue that it's not fair that FE may get harsher scaling for evade when FFX or FFT can skate by on equipment based evasion if you just treat like a durablity stat. Dunno. Yes, I'm rambling.
Random: Does scaling FE7/8's evade to the final big fight change much? (Light for FE7, can't remember FE8's name)
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I do scale FFX numerical evade, as well as the evasion from FFT default evasion choices (Although I see how FFT could be trickier since it's equip based. On the other hand, it was a combo of natural stats and equipment, I wouldn't go by just the natural stats. But yeah, that one is a bit trickier).
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Accuracy and evade aren't normal stats. Some games get a pass on them with their system (G2 for accuracy, FFT/X for evade). To use Elfboy's example: I think Irvine has something like 100% base hit in the DL, but he's way below average scaled against Squall and Selphie's accuracy. I would scream bloody murder if Irvine suddenly had 50% hit in the DL. He doesn't function like that in game at all (FF8 idiotic problems aside) and while it's technically true to the DL letter of the law, it goes against pretty much everything we do as far as mechanics and trying to make fair fights.
Evade's the same. Some casts get lucky and everyone has evade as a scalable stat. Some get it as static stats that function like elemental defense (FFT, say). Some have a mix of both and get really lucky (FFX). Why should one cast get punished for this? Lucius is evading enemies a certain amount of times in game, say.. Irvine (again) is evading them 0% of the time. Irvine does not have more DL evade than Lucius, nor should he. On the other hand, Irvine is automatically more accurate than Bartre in spite of having far worse numerical accuracy, for the same reasons as listed above.
Demi evades.. 0% at endgame but has higher numerical evade than Lucius. There's no way she's more evasive than him, when he evades 20% of the time at endgame.
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What you're thinking of Snow is spread, not average. Evasion has the same exact treatment.
This issues becomes nearly identical to defense when you get a situation like Assault Buster, which is dependent on opponent evasion for damage. Its damage in the DL is taken against average enemy evasion. If you were to use it on Yulie, would she take less because she has some evade? Or should she take more because she notably sucks at evasion? #2 there seems more reasonable to me (and you, Snow. We discussed this in chat once). But then someone like Jerin or whomever from a game with no evasion. Should they take every single hit from AB because they are from a game that has no evade stat? Thats like saying that VH Or Disgaea PCs should take insane damage from it for having no speed stat. In both cases, you're letting a character hit a weakness against an entire cast just because the systems are different. This is the logical extension of taking "literal evade". Its no different from saying T.G. Cid has worse defense than Luc because Luc has a defense stat and Cid doesn't.
Evade stats are like OB elemental resistance stats. You can suck at them or you can be badass at them, but they shouldn't make an entire cast better just because it exists and the enemies suck.
That's exactly why I'm saying "minimum streamlining". What you are applying there is the -other- logical extreme of scaling stats uniformly regardless of their effect in-game. Stats function differently and they deserve to be treated differently if the case calls for it, and exceptional instances get treated in a case-by-case basis. THIS is what I'm talking about. For functional purposes on a typical example, casts without an evasion stat all dodge the same amount, just as all FFT characters take the same amount of damage from an attack. But, in cases like Assault Buster, that doesn't make sense. Why should I inflate the punishment or reward of a cast for not getting a stat? That's the guideline I set, not simply trying to streamline everything into an uniform, thoroughly unnatural rescaling that completely ignores how a stat functions in normal environments. The averages streamlining is supposed to -ease- headaches instead of bringing up more, and to bring distinction. It's not simply spread - ACF Jane isn't as physically frail as Arnaud, even though she has less HP and her defense in the spread is quite possibly relatively worse than his, but because her defense stat is -far less important- than Arnaud's. I can see the headaches things like AB and exceptions can bring due to the logical extremes, but that's the issue: you are considering one logical extreme and taking its extreme opposite. I can't see how that's any better, and I don't go by either. When the streamlining doesn't work, you have to deal with cases like Assault Buster or other oddities at a case-by-case basis, which is what I do. Saying Luc takes hits better than Orlandu clearly doesn't feel right, but neither does saying Lyn dodges less attacks than Rika without Saner does. Neither of those are true to how they work in-game, so what's the point of taking a methodology where either of those ends up true?
I do see where you come from, but, as you explain it and put the ideas into practical motion, it feels like it still has the same issue you are seemingly trying to avoid. I already take higher enemy accuracy averages for evasion stats in order to avoid inflating the stat as much for the sake of fairness and lower the gap between cast evasion a bit, but relative evade as I've seen applied just often ends out as punishing the stat for the sake of punishing it.
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Super, Feena's defense does more to lower damage than Brad's does in game, but DL wise, her defense is actually below average while he doesn't suffer from that.
If someone has ITE damage, I don't wouldn't hold that against the accuracy average. That's why Irvine doesn't have 50% accuracy (Or alternately, the effect should be practical accuracy. Squall and Selphie then have 100% practical accuracy, while Irvine has whatever it is in game in comparison).
If there was a game where average evasion was 75%, should someone with 50% evasion be hyped, or should it be noted that they get hit double the time on average because they are subpar at evading compared to their cast? Lucius may evade 20% in game, but that translates to something like being hit 10% more of the time on average. Average enemies do better against Lucius than most of his cast hitwise, while they don't really fare any better against Demi. I can't really see it as different than a character whose defense cuts physicals by 20%, but the average cast defense cuts them by 27%. They are taking less damage than they could be, but they are still taking more than the average PC is.
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Should they take every single hit from AB because they are from a game that has no evade stat? Thats like saying that VH Or Disgaea PCs should take insane damage from it for having no speed stat.
Um... what? Disgaea has a Speed stat. And if I'm not mistaken, it directly affects evasion (go Ninja, go Ninja go!).
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Um... what? Disgaea has a Speed stat. And if I'm not mistaken, it directly affects evasion (go Ninja, go Ninja go!).
NINJAS OF THE NIGHT. Yeah, Disgaea has a speed stat (and VH has an agility stat or whatever), but I was referring to the part of AB that checks the RFX of the enemy, i.e. the stat that determines how often you get turns, which Disgaea doesn't have.
That's exactly why I'm saying "minimum streamlining". What you are applying there is the -other- logical extreme of scaling stats uniformly regardless of their effect in-game. Stats function differently and they deserve to be treated differently if the case calls for it, and exceptional instances get treated in a case-by-case basis. THIS is what I'm talking about. For functional purposes on a typical example, casts without an evasion stat all dodge the same amount, just as all FFT characters take the same amount of damage from an attack. But, in cases like Assault Buster, that doesn't make sense. Why should I inflate the punishment or reward of a cast for not getting a stat? That's the guideline I set, not simply trying to streamline everything into an uniform, thoroughly unnatural rescaling that completely ignores how a stat functions in normal environments. The averages streamlining is supposed to -ease- headaches instead of bringing up more, and to bring distinction.
You abandon your method of saying those with an evade stat (below or above average) are just naturally better than those without, and instead use averaged evasion here because it makes more sense? Thanks for the support! I'm not changing how stats work in the slightest Snow. The crux of all of this is that I'm saying the people FEers face in the DL aren't as incompetent at hitting things as FE enemies. Even this supposedly accurate Limstella isn't really up to par if her accuracy is only 73% against average. Or a boss who does 20% PCHP damage isn't up to par just because randoms deal even less.
That's the guideline I set, not simply trying to streamline everything into an uniform, thoroughly unnatural rescaling that completely ignores how a stat functions in normal environments. The averages streamlining is supposed to -ease- headaches instead of bringing up more, and to bring distinction. It's not simply spread - ACF Jane isn't as physically frail as Arnaud, even though she has less HP and her defense in the spread is quite possibly relatively worse than his, but because her defense stat is -far less important- than Arnaud's.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. How effective a stat in terms of damage reduction/whatever matters for determining relative durabilities, yes. Following this logic (and assuming relative evade) Ayla, who has about 20 above average CT evade, is less evasive than someone who has 15 above average FE evade, because FE's evade stat does more point-for-point to help you dodge enemy attacks.
I'm offering a normal, perfectly reasonable and fair way to represent evasion in the DL: treat it in the same manner we do defense. It serves the exact same function in a slightly different manner, and scaling it gives us consistency (same way its handled for defense/mdef) and fairness (casts don't get boosts just because the enemies suck).
The best argument I've seen against this is that it unbalances the relative evade in casts like FE. For example in FE8, if Tana had 66% evade against enemies (which hit average 73% of the time), and Joshua had 44% against that same enemy, Tana effectively evades 1.65x as much as him relatively. Scaling it to average accuracy, this becomes 39% evade for Tana and 17 for Joshua. Now Tana evades only 1.36x as much as him relatively. So the former must be more accurate and its cool to assume that as a fair representation of how much they dodge in the DL? No, not really.
Its the exact same thing we encounter for say Amelia and Franz for defense. Against a 30 might attack, Amelia takes 10.4 damage while Franz takes 13.7 (Amelia takes 76% of what Franz does). Against a 40 Might attack, this becomes 20.4 and 23.7 (Amelia takes 86% what he does). For DL purposes we generally assume attacks to be 40% against an average PC, and so we consider what they do to a ~35 Might attack. If in game the average was a 20 Might attack we sure as hell wouldn't assume that an average damage opponent in the DL did that much to them just to preserve in-game durability! That would be obnoxious.
But thats exactly what taking evade against an enemy who doesn't hit average 100% of the time is doing. You're basically assigning the (poor) offensive attributes of FE enemies to whatever they face in the DL. We could do this for defense or speed to. Assume that whatever enemy an FEer faces has average enemy AS. Same thing... deciding how good whatever dueler goes up against an FEer is based on how good/bad the enemies that FEer faced in game were. We don't do this for anything else but evasion.
The only other argument to take evasion literally is that its an ability like elemental resistance... but where does that leave you? An interpretation that treats one particular damage reduction type very differently from every other, and bases a whole cast's durability based on how many hits they could take in-game, which is going to vary terribly from game to game. Isn't smoothing that the reason we have scaling in the first place? The offensive attributes of enemies really shouldn't have such a say in one cast being better than another.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Dhyer just say that Bright's accuracy wasn't much better than 73% anyway and so Nino has decent evade against him anyway? It'd be funny if all of this had no relevance whatsoever for this week's match.
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MEGA MAN PLOT.
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Sigh. Okay, if you guys insist. Not sure -why- you do, but let's get into this argument again. I am sure by the end one of us will have convinced each other.
Tia's a bad example because she provably has 0% evasion in game
Super, that's precisely why she's a good example. You said it yourself, Tia has 0% evasion. She doesn't evade. She can be MISSED, but she doesn't evade.
Lucius, however, does evade. How much is up to debate, but this is a qualitative, undeniable statement: Lucius has evasion, Tia does not.
That's the fundamental difference between Defence and Evade. There is no meaningful idea of 0 Defence; however, 0 Evade clearly does exist. It's analogous to a flag that says "can not evade".
Random: Does scaling FE7/8's evade to the final big fight change much? (Light for FE7, can't remember FE8's name)
Light is a mix of bosses around Limstella's level, bosses which are aruond 15-25% better, the Dragon who is 57% better, and randoms who are 30% or so worse.
Sacred Stone is a horde of randoms who average about 35% worse, Dracozombies who are about Limstella level, and Lyon/DK who are both about 20% better.
. If in game the average was a 20 Might attack we sure as hell wouldn't assume that was an average attack against the cast just to preserve in-game durability! That would be obnoxious.
Now, now, now. When did we use FE7's average? If we did, we'd have 90% evade Lyn Snow mentioned.
No, when the randoms obviously fail, it's reasonable to use bosses. Similarly, Grandia 1 has bosses who deal out 3HKO damage. Suddenly taking their defences against that seems reasonable (though if you want to argue it a bit lower, that would be fine).
If, on the other hand, EVERY SINGLE ENEMY in a game did no more than 20% to average, it would be rather silly to take defences as against 40% damage when that never even exists. Example of a game we even do this for? FF1. No enemy does close to 40% per hit (doing multiple hits instead), so we take them against something lower than that. You can say you're just scaling in the hits, and that is a simple way to look at it, but YOU ARE STILL ACKNOWLEDGING THE ENEMIES MATTER.
More later, class now.
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Sigh. Okay, if you guys insist. Not sure -why- you do, but let's get into this argument again. I am sure by the end one of us will have convinced each other.
It's more than just convincing Dhyer or Pyro about how to scale things. We do have voters who lurk the boards and read our arguments and how we see things, so even if you're not going to come to an agreement you may be influncing the people reading the topic.
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Rephrasing a bit:
There's a bit too much nastiness/rudeness/trolling going on for some reason here on both sides. Either be civil or don't post.
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Tia's a bad example because she provably has 0% evasion in game
Super, that's precisely why she's a good example. You said it yourself, Tia has 0% evasion. She doesn't evade. She can be MISSED, but she doesn't evade.
Lucius, however, does evade. How much is up to debate, but this is a qualitative, undeniable statement: Lucius has evasion, Tia does not.
That's the fundamental difference between Defence and Evade. There is no meaningful idea of 0 Defence; however, 0 Evade clearly does exist. It's analogous to a flag that says "can not evade".
When I see Tia "evading" in the DL, it's due to her opponent's innate inaccuracy compared to average in their home game. In that view, she's not the cause of the evasion anyways. However, Lucius is below average in evasion. Yes, he has evasion, and S4 mages have defense. It exists but its below average, which ends up with them taking more damage than normally in the DL, just likes Lucius' low relative evade would make him take more hits in game.
If Lucius faces an enemy with a 90% hit rate in game, then his evasion is near nil. Yet if he faces someone who averaged 90% accuracy in their home game and that 90% was average, he gets 20%-30% evasion. Something like this both benefits a character for having a bad amount of a stat just because the stat exists and punishes the opponent's accuracy when he/she didn't have all that much of a problem in game.
If enemies do multiple hits/have higher mults, stuff like that is factored into practical average defenses. And yet, going by subtractive defense, whether an enemy does 4 hits on 15 each or 4 hits of 60 each doesn't really matter. It's just the mult that's applied to the defense in game that matters, not the amount of damage an enemy is doing per hit.
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Godlike:
Ted (S4) vs Jade (BoF1)
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX) - Yuna really has only Holy here. Kratos nulls light, halves others, and/or guardian. PC Kratos does 2x damage to humans. (Yuna is still human right??) Plus Yuna's well below average HP and horrible phy defence/durability is not ignored.
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4)
Ellen Kirshima (Pers) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs)
Heavy:
Claus F. Lester (ToP) vs Gades (Lufias)
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3)
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea)
Demi (PS4) vs Kharg (AtL4)
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2)
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8)
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1)
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7)
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2)
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)
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So you know how to find a killing point the average PC in the DL, we take 2.5x the average damage... or at least most people do for most games. (Games like FE the killing point is simple, because their damage/hp are relevant to each other.) Normal games, say FF6, damage/hp are NOT relevant to each other.
FE7 average damage was taken against 10 defense enemies, the ave. res/def for FE PCs is 14.5.
This mean the average FE fight does 19.2 damage to 45HP in their cast. See how nice and pretty FE works, average FE fighter 2.5HKOs another average FE fighter, which it about right.
However, for most games we have to scale. Say FF6. If we took literal killpoint of 2500HP then LOLOL Terra now has 4x PC damage. So we take average damage and say 2.5x that is PC level kill. (3800 ave. damage = 9500 kill = Terra slightly OHKOs with 9999.)
So if we scale most games damage based on the average in game, why not do that with FE evade? Average evade in game is 59.4%, but the average PC in game also has more than 100% hit, meaning this evade can't be taken literally, unless we want a cast of heavy/godlikes. This will make sense soon.
FE Hit% = (Weapon hit %) + (Skill x 2) + (Luck x .5)
These averages are 75% (weapon choice matters here, but this is a good average) 21 and 16.6. So 75 + 42 + 8.3 = 125.3 average hit %. In PC v PC fights, which is what we normally have, FE has averages of 125% hit and 59% evade. This means that cast average evade is actually only 34%, which really isn't all that bad considering some games like FFX. (Lucius now evades average fighters 27% of time, Lyn 53%, Dorcas 17%.) Lyn is still crazy evasive, but that's also how she survived in game, so it makes sense that she should survive in DL the same way.
MOVING ON, I used FE7 because I forgot this was about Lute, the same stuff works in FE8.
Average hit is 130%, average evade is 61%. This means that actual average evade is 31%, a bit lower than FE7. Lute rolls in with 66.7% evade, slightly above average, meaning against an average PC she is evading 37.7% of the time.
This system works for me because ALL FE stats in game are scaled to other PCs basically. It just so happens that the enemies are very shitty PCs, whereas the bosses are just stronger PCs. Also both games have around a 2.5x hit to kill ratio, which is identical to the DL standard 2.5x ave. damage to kill.
By this logic a slightly below average accuracy Bright is probably missing Lute low/mid 40s% of the time... or 2nd attack for me, so yeah changing vote here.
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When I see Tia "evading" in the DL, it's due to her opponent's innate inaccuracy compared to average in their home game.
There's a difference between missing due to one's own accuracy and the target evading. Many games even come up with different words for this. (FFT, BoF3-4 come to mind off the top of my head.)
Tia can be missed (by Momo, etc.); she can not evade. The difference is so simple that you have to be choosing not to see it on purpose.
Yes, he has evasion, and S4 mages have defense.
Tia has 0 evasion. You can't define something called "0 defence" that can be compared across games. Any evasion is better than 0.
. Something like this both benefits a character for having a bad amount of a stat just because the stat exists and punishes the opponent's accuracy when he/she didn't have all that much of a problem in game.
Evasion is qualitative/skill-based, though.
It's a skill Lucius isn't great at, but having the skill is better than not having it. Much like having First Aid in AtL4 makes you a below average healer for the cast, but it still beats not having it at all.
not the amount of damage an enemy is doing per hit.
A bit of a tangent, but I'll argue it for your sake, because if you must hold onto your evade scaling idea this line of thinking could at least ensure that it's a valid form of durability, something that it doesn't... really seem to be ever, for you:
If no enemy in a game did more than 20% damage to average, I can't see taking that game's defences against anything higher than that. After all, anyone who could null said damage would be physically immune in-game, and logically that should translate to the DL.
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Yeah, lots of games distinguish evading and missing.
BoF4, comes to mind, where miss via Evading says "Parry" and for missing via accuracy (see Ershin's physical, many of Ursula's attacks, Risky Shot/Blow, etc.) it says "Miss."
BoF3, it says "Miss" for both instances, and at first, I was going to correct Elfboy...until I remembered that I THINK Evading shows the character strafe a little to the the side, while Missing, they're stationary.
FFT (mostly applies to stuff like Breaks which aren't 100% Base accuracy), I believe it Evading it says "Guard" combined with showing a shield or them strafing to the side a bit (holding their arms up), or blocking with their weapon, whatever, while Miss it just says "Miss" (whether there's animation involved or not, wanna say it depends on the attack.)
Or what about ARPGs, where misses can just be totally out of bad aiming, and evading happens if you do connect, but the enemy actually manages to avoid?
The point is, bad Accuracy is different from Good Evasion. They yield the same result (attack doesn't connect), sure...
But well, lets look at an example!
In the case of, say, 50% accuracy, the attack will only hit 50% of the time. Unless you find a rare case where a game actually has NEGATIVE EVADE (FE4 anyone <.<?), that 50% accuracy can never hit more than one out of every 2 shots. Even if it ignores Evade, its still got a cap of 50% accuracy (Barring weird quirks of the system like Zodiac Affinities or Weapon Triangle Advantage that can alter rates one way or another, for entirely different reasons). See FFT Snipe where it ignores Evasion, but it has a base accuracy that is significantly below 100%. No matter HOW bad at evasion you are, these attacks can only hit 50% of the time, regardless.
By your logic, a character with "Below Average Evade" is suddenly allowing this attack to do something that it normally shouldn't, that being have a higher Hit Rate than is actually possible by the attacks distinctions, just cause the enemy has "below average evade" which in his OWN HOME GAME translates to a value well above 0?
Now, other side of the coin...
Say you have 50% evasion. Lets assume this is actually 50%, and not a weird FE style subtraction evasion which requires scaling (hence why FE is taken against hit rates above 100, etc.) So if someone has "average" accuracy which is 100% vs. 0% evasion, lets say (what many people claim is "average"; this is purely for sake of argument, mind, not saying I personally believe this), that attack will miss 50% of the time.
*HOWEVER*, lets say they come up against someone whose average effective accuracy is 150%. This means that this 50% evasion is suddenly 25% in practice due to 50% of 150% is still 75%.
Which is to say nothing of 200% accuracy which completely overwhelms that 50%.
Now, yes, there are evade rates that ignore accuracy. FF6's Interceptor comes to mind; he's a flat out 50% chance to block any SUCCESSFUL physical dealt to Shadow. Even if the move IGNORES EVADE, if its a certain kind of attack (basically Fight/Battle commands and Specials), Interceptor has a flat out 50% chance to block it.
However, these moves are no different than moves that Ignore Evade but have below 100% accuracy like FFT's Snipe.
Ignoring those exceptions, in any event, do you see the difference?
In the case of 50% evasion, it *CAN* be overwhelmed, and made to look worse than it really is, if you have good accuracy. If nothing else, refer to FFX. Wakka has no problems hitting those pesky evasive fliers that other characters struggle to hit. These enemies have great evasion, but despite this, cause Wakka's accuracy is so high, he can overcome it and still hit them with no problem.
Bad Accuracy, meanwhile, cannot overcome bad evasion. Momo's 70% accuracy in game stands out and she never hits anything more than 70% of the time on average. Even enemies with absolutely no evade, she'll still miss. The only way to get that 70% Accuracy higher is to either use moves like Shadow Walk which insure that the attack will hit, or give her accuracy boosters like the Artemis Cap. Either way, Momo's accuracy caps at 70%, and it cannot be increased higher than 70% based on what she's targeting alone (barring very bizarre circumstances, like as I notd before, FE4 PCs who can actually have negative evade.)
So yeah, while the result might be the same, and the two are often related, there's a difference between Evading and Missing, and as such, we can derive that there's a huge difference between 100% Accuracy and 0% Evasion, in that the former insures you'll always hit, while the latter means the enemy gets no hit penalties against you.
Its a similar line of thought as how 0 Defense =/= 0 Defense. Phantasy Star 4 enemies, for example, have such horrid defense that Profound Darkness' "low" defense score of 0 goes completely unnoticed, and is "low" in a pure numerical sense, when in practice, it means a whole extra like 2% more damage.
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Random point of order on Kratos vs. Yuna. To get the Kratos hype train started... if for some reason you completely ban Aeons for Yuna, Kratos actually wins this, on second thought. As pointed out, he nulls Holy, so that leaves Yuna's mighty physical. The thing is, ToS characters regenerate TP by beating other characters up. So even a Blind Kratos going up against a Protected, Shelled Yuna will still easily generate enough TP to endlessly heal, and even if he could never kill her, he'd do far more damage in an infinite match and probably get a decision in his favor. But... it won't be an infinite match, because despite having 1 MP costs, Yuna will eventually, very slowly, run out of MP. Kratos will get enough hits in to force her to occasionally heal (No hyping SOS Regen or Pray, please, if Kratos gets lucky and hits with everything, that will easily overwhelm a good 20-40% of Yuna's life at least, which is more than enough to break the Regen and Pray). Eventually, Yuna will be out of MP and stuck with Pray, and eventually Kratos will get lucky enough to smash her through the Blind. It'll be a slooooooooow fight because Kratos will spend a lot of time not using his special moves and merely recuperating TP, but he'll win.
As for me, I don't allow Yunas Aeons straight up, but I do allow her her Overdrives (it'd be weird and unfair not to let her have them), so, um, she heals until Overdrive and then Bahamut flattens Kratos. But still!
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Yuna has a Darktouch weapon, which means Kratos will hit 10% of the time. An important detail for breaking down the epic, here.
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Just curious about your view, Snowfire. I'm not trying to challenge it, just wondering one thing...
You say you allow Overdrives for Yuna. Now, do you allow the Aeon to stay out after the use of their Overdrive via Grand Summon, or do you assume the Aeon disappears (lets just say there's a hidden Seymour in the background casting Banish as a response to any Aeon Action right after they go) immediately after the overdrive?
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FE7 average damage was taken against 10 defense enemies, the ave. res/def for FE PCs is 14.5.
This mean the average FE fight does 19.2 damage to 45HP in their cast. See how nice and pretty FE works, average FE fighter 2.5HKOs another average FE fighter, which it about right.
However, for most games we have to scale. Say FF6. If we took literal killpoint of 2500HP then LOLOL Terra now has 4x PC damage. So we take average damage and say 2.5x that is PC level kill. (3800 ave. damage = 9500 kill = Terra slightly OHKOs with 9999.)
So if we scale most games damage based on the average in game, why not do that with FE evade? Average evade in game is 59.4%, but the average PC in game also has more than 100% hit, meaning this evade can't be taken literally, unless we want a cast of heavy/godlikes. This will make sense soon.
We scale most games based on interactions between PCs and enemies, not between PC vs PC. PC vs Enemy happens in game, while PC vs PC generally doesn't unless a PC is charmed or confused. And if you come up with average evasion being 31% for FE 8, this method in fact increases evasion because the practical evasion average is 27%.
Now, evasion is a valid form of durability to me...with the cavaet that the evasion is above average. Certainly matters for people who are going to be evading 50% of the time. For someone who has 10% more evasion that normal, it might come up in long drawn out matches, but not in a normal 3 turn match. But if you are calling evasion a form of durability, then aren't PC durabilities suppose to average out to be equal to one another?
I am cognizant that Tia can not evade in game, but I also believe that she can not miss. I don't feel like just because a game has no evade stat (a DL relevant one anyways, since capsules can apparentally), I'm not going to say someone like Estella has a perfect hit rate against them. To me, they fall as average (Similar to FFT characters having average defense). I see the difference, but I'm not going to say that someone who has a practical hit rate of 50% in game when there is no Momo-like cap gets to hit something 100% of the time if they come from a game where evasion mostly doesn't exist. I still don't see how pure stat based evasion should be separated from defense. It works like durability, as defense does. Like defense, it isn't the numerical existence of the stat that makes it useful, but rather having that number be larger than the number of fellowcast mates. 20% evasion isn't a good thing if the practical effect is you get hit 10% more than average. If there was a status attack with a base of 100%, and the average check reduced to 70%, but one character had a check that only reduced it to 80%, they wouldn't be considered status resistance. What makes evasion different?
On the 20% average game, that wouldn't sound unlike Piastol Mdef hype to me.
PC Kratos vs Aeonless Yuna=No one ever wins. However, Kratos is able to survive on the magic of 1% Regen, and at least is making damage stick more often which I suppose would make him more of the Jogurt in the Jogurt vs Shiho clause. Thank god Yuna has summons! I won't say that too often DL wise.
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I am going to say it again.
MEGA MAN PLOT.
This argument is fruitless.
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By your logic, a character with "Below Average Evade" is suddenly allowing this attack to do something that it normally shouldn't, that being have a higher Hit Rate than is actually possible by the attacks distinctions, just cause the enemy has "below average evade" which in his OWN HOME GAME translates to a value well above 0?
No different from an attack doing more damage than it ever could in-game because the enemy has defense that is worse than anything in the home game. Consider Lilka's physical against an enemy with 0 WA2 defense (highest in her home game) and a naked FF6 character. Alternatively consider a status spell that has a %hit-rate that is higher than the DL than in-game against an FEer with horrendous Res, or FFTer with high Faith. Or LoL2 character with low Charisma.
And with that LilkaxTerra image, we return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Godlike:
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX): Goes first, OHKOs. Yuna has a huge arsenal of stuff that would shut down or outright splatter Kratos if she ever got a turn, but her evade *cough* isn't good enough to buy her one.
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4)
Heavy:
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3)
Demi (PS4) vs Kharg (AtL4)
Middle:
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8)
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1)
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7)
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3)
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2)
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6)
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Godlike:
Ted (S1) vs Jade (BoF1)
Middle:
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1)
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7)
Light:
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2)
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I am going to say it again.
MEGA MAN PLOT.
This argument is fruitless.
Then don't post. It's a perfectly valid debate and it doesn't need this kind of response.
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Fine fine, it is just all old debates that have been rehashed each time Suikoden 3 comes up is all. Edit - Just as a focal point for massive difference in evasion scaling.
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Yuna has a Darktouch weapon, which means Kratos will hit 10% of the time. An important detail for breaking down the epic, here.
Well, Yuna damage is still mock-worthy, so worst comes to worst, Kratos just goes for the draw in the infinite fight. He can still hit often enough to heal off Yuna's staff thwacks, I'm sure. Kratos doesn't even have to "play it safe" since once someone's hit by the first few blows, I'd say that they're generally stunned and won't be missed again even by a blind character once Kratos starts actually spending MP to use moves. So it's not like he has to invest his MP into a combo only to have it completely miss.
Meeplelard: I let the Aeon stay out, not that it matters that much in Godlike, since the long delay after most Overdrive moves means that most characters can finish off the Aeon first. Of course, Yuna could just not have the Aeon use its Overdrive right away.
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Certainly matters for people who are going to be evading 50% of the time. For someone who has 10% more evasion that normal, it might come up in long drawn out matches, but not in a normal 3 turn match.
And therein lies the problem. If evade is equal to defence to you, you certainly don't seem to be treating it that way. After all, it needs to be hugely above average to apparently do anything in an average match. Whereas even slightly above average defence seems capable of mattering. More on that later.
But if you are calling evasion a form of durability
Let's just be clear, for DL purposes: I'm not, you are.
I am cognizant that Tia can not evade in game, but I also believe that she can not miss.
You're arguing she has an ITE physical? I'd disagree. Even if I didn't suspect there was some counterexample (being confused and attacking an evasive capsule? Some obscure enemy with evade I'm forgetting?), it doesn't seem reasonable to me to assume basic physicals to be ITE without solid proof.
If she's not facing much evasion, it's because the enemies she faces lack the skill to do so.
If there was a status attack with a base of 100%, and the average check reduced to 70%, but one character had a check that only reduced it to 80%, they wouldn't be considered status resistance.
Actually, Suikoden 5 monsters generally aren't seen as weak to status just because all the humans can reduce it by 50%.
In-game example for why your scaling method spits all over evade (in addition to its intuition problems!)
Okay, I'm going to use two FE8 PCs, Vanessa (37 HP, 14 def, 80 avoid) and Kyle (52 HP, 18 def, 52 avoid). If we take a Silver weapon random with 33 attack and 100 hit, we get:
-Vanessa has a 8% chance to be hit for (barely) 2HKO damage. On average, she needs to be hit 25 times to be killed.
-Kyle has a 46% chance to be hit for 4HKO damage. On average, he needs to be hit 8-9 times to be killed.
Okay, let's pull out hypothetical physical boss (the game lacks one anywhere near endgame, so we will BS one) with 125 hit and 38 attack.
-Vanessa gets hit 40% of the time for 2HKO damage. On average, 5 hits to die.
-Kyle gets hit 85% of the time for 3HKO damage. On average, 3.5 hits to die.
Yet, in Dhyer-land, high evade doesn't get much respect at all for some reason. Since now Vanessa is only 28% above average evade, which to you seems to translate to "won't kick in on the first two turns" which is to say, if Vanessa is being 2HKOed it doesn't even matter. So what on earth is going on? Why is a character who, if evade is a form of durability, is clearly and provably DURABLE, getting two-shotted by average damage in the DL?
There are probably ways to correct this within your views, but I haven't seen you taking the steps towards them, which makes me suspect you are just out to nerf evade, rather than represent it fairly.
On the other hand, my view makes perfect sense. Kyle only evades 15% of the time, and the way I factor in evade this isn't a factor in fast matches, so this below average dodger gets no hype. He might evade in a longer match, but this is reasonable - anyone following my logic will nod, and say "Well yeah, Kyle's not a great evader, but he did do it sometimes, so it makes sense that it might happen once or twice over an unusually long match". Whereas the Vanessas who did survive by evading in-game can do it in the DL too, to some extent... unless they run into ITE (something they didn't even have to put up with in-game!). Seems entirely fair, reflective of in-game, and intuitive to me.
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You're arguing she has an ITE physical? I'd disagree. Even if I didn't suspect there was some counterexample (being confused and attacking an evasive capsule? Some obscure enemy with evade I'm forgetting?), it doesn't seem reasonable to me to assume basic physicals to be ITE without solid proof.
If she's not facing much evasion, it's because the enemies she faces lack the skill to do so.
Pretty much. (Though I'm pretty sure that IP's ignore evade, I'm not 100% on this)
Meeplelard: I let the Aeon stay out, not that it matters that much in Godlike, since the long delay after most Overdrive moves means that most characters can finish off the Aeon first. Of course, Yuna could just not have the Aeon use its Overdrive right away.
There shouldn't be much in Godlike that outright survives an Aeon overdrive, even ignoring Anima/Magus Three.
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In Dhyer-land, Vanessa has 41% evasion, so she does in fact evade on turn 2.
And it's true that 10% evasion will have less on an effect than defense cutting damage 10% in the DL, as 10% evasion would need bad damage to come into play. It likely lags until 25% evasion. That could be chalked to the innate risk of depending on evading damage instead of lowering, but it's something to think on. I will admit, I have previously toyed with the idea of turning into another form of division defense. Blar, I guess the balance is that the character who evades 10% less than normal generally doesn't translate into taking 10% more damage in the DL either. So...guess that's kind of the flip. Characters will evasion very close to the average see it generally having a small effect.
The S5 scenario would work if all the humans innately halved status compared to monsters, as opposed to with an equip (Or alternately, the status checked Mdef!). If it checked MDef, someone with 80 MDef wouldn't be hit by the status all that time, but they'd still be hit with it more often than normal.
And no, I don't think Tia's physical is ITE. But if she can't evade in game, seems like she also can't miss. ITE? Inherently more accurate than characters from basically all other games where evasion exists? Wouldn't those be the correlary to having worse evasion compared to someone from a game where evasion exists but the character is bad at it?
To me, Tia misses against decent evasion just like
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There shouldn't be much in Godlike that outright survives an Aeon overdrive, even ignoring Anima/Magus Three.
End game Yuna's Aeons don't quite smash everything in Godlike.
Shiva drops down a bit over 2.3X PCHP. Someone who laughs at ice still takes 2.2x PCHP from Valefor. If for some reason you don't allow those to break damage limits then Bahamut only does 1.3x PCHP. These are good numbers obviously, but a lot of Godlike survives this.
The problem being that even if they survive, they have to have healing AND damage along with this durability to survive. If Yuna got one Overdrive then she'll obviously get another. Going by Snow's view... I can't think of anyone that will let Yuna live to see an OD, kill the Aeon, and somehow comeback and win the match.
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Meeplelard: I let the Aeon stay out, not that it matters that much in Godlike, since the long delay after most Overdrive moves means that most characters can finish off the Aeon first. Of course, Yuna could just not have the Aeon use its Overdrive right away.
Ok, was just curious. Its true that most Aeons do probably die after an Overdrive due to massive lag (though, from what I remember, they're massive tanks so they might survive anyway?) though, not a given, so helps me understand your votes some or something.
(mostly just nice to know where other people stand on votes so if you want to shoot your mouth off, you're not accidentally assuming they allow something they don't <_< )
And...I believe Valefor would be the best for a one shot. Its got a hidden feature which jacks its evade against melee, and then Sonic Wings can be spammed against things not immune to it due to being a delay effect attack with quick recharge.
EDIT: For the record, anyone who allows Celestials for FFX and does *NOT* allow at very least Valefor to BDL is crazy, given Aeon's breaking the Damage Limit is directly related to celestials (heck, IIRC, it only needs the Crest release, not the Sigil)...well, at very least, Valefor, given that one is related to the Nirvana.
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Right Meep, the thing is that someone who is more harsh on Yuna's Aeon views might also be more harsh on equipment. Let's be honest, the Celestial weapons, although attainable, are oftentimes postgame. I still don't think I've ever completed Lulu's, although that's as much due to customization ownage as anything else.
I obviously allow the Celestials, although I'm pretty liberal on equipment/spells in general, but I could definately understand if someone didn't allow them. In this case Bahamut now has Yuna's best OD damage. 1.3x PCHP isn't bad, but it sure as hell isn't Valefor/Shiva. Unless you think that Shiva could evade hype, get a turn, and heal herself, or that Valefor could evade hype, live, and sonic wing spam.
On that note... you're not even forced to Overdrive when you Grand Summon are you... unless my memory is way off. Snow, would you allow Yuna to Grand Summon an Aeon and then simply fight with it, saving the overdrive for when it'd kill?
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Grand Summon is purely summoning the Aeon with an extra Overdrive Gauge, yeah (in that if you use the Overdrive, the Aeon's gauge goes back to whatever it was before Grand Summon, which means you can fire off 2 Overdrives at once); forget if you can build up your normal Ovedrive while Grand Summon Overdrive is still intact though.
Either way, yeah, nothing forces you to use the Grand Summon damage, just often its a good idea in game since Bosses start pulling these anti Aeon tricks (Seymour's Banish, Yunalesca's Curse/Osmose/Absorb nonsense, Shrine Keepers stupid mines that you normally can walk away from but Aeons cannot given how they appear in the battle, etc.) so you want the most bang out of your Aeon's lone turn on bosses.
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As Super notes, most of the time a Yuna Overdrive = splat, so there's no reason not to run out and do it right away, and in the rare times it isn't, there's often an incentive to shoot it off right away anyway. And even if the Aeon dies, well, Yuna can start her healing game again and heal into an Overdrive. I certainly think an OD will level PC Kratos, and boss Kratos probably doesn't null Holy.
As for Chapin's question if anyone in Godlike can survive the first Aeon to win the match... it'd probably have to do with slow and/or triggered MP busting. Maybe Albedo's XS1 form? Yuna Holies him, he beats her up, she heals into an overdrive, the overdrive knocks Albedo to below 50% health, Albedo zaps Yuna's MP, Albedo proceeds to win. Of course, this assumes that Albedo in fact survives the Overdrive +1-3 Holies. I kinda doubt it, but it's plausible.
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Hadn't thought of a triggered MP busting... Albedo could do it given the HP. Mind you Holy/Valefor is 3x PC damage and there is no way that Albedo survives that unless you have some crazy nice scaling.
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Just a note, Anima and the fat magus sister are the only Aeons who are "crazy tanks". The rest of 'em are average to below average at taking hits. Shiva's evade is pretty good though.
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Where on earth do you get that idea?
Bahamut:
HP 5413
DEF 85
MDEF 84
Ifrit:
HP 3822
DEF 91
MDEF 62
etc.
Average HP is 3563, average defences are in the low 30's (don't have it written down). Bahamut is an excellent tank, and every single aeon is above average at durability except possibly Valefor (who is an improved Lulu, durability-wise). Granted, I won't argue that any of the first four or Yojimbo are "crazy tanks", but Bahamut kinda is. (And for the record, Sandy is notably tankier than Anima, and Mindy is comparable.)
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Considering he also sees Kratos as faster then Yuna, it would seem Monkey has some odd views of FFX in general.
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Yuna's fast (like 120%), but not enough to keep up with Kratos.
The "odd" part of my view is that I see Tales physical combos as really speedy and Tales spells as really, REALLY slow. Same for star ocean games.
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Well, I didn't get to make many picks, given my limited knowledge. I recall making two. :-X
I didn't realize there were all these stats involved in the battles at the time, I just went off the descriptions and what I knew each character could do. And who I think would win in a real fight.
Probably should put my reasoning behind it.
Godlike:
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX) - It takes time for Yuna to call out those Aeons. I'm pretty sure she can't call them and fend off Kratos at the same time. She has her Guardians for a reason. I could guarantee she's not winning a straight up physical fight either.
Light:
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6) - Lani's just too quick, varied, and with too many magics for Cyan's type.
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For whatever its worth, you are allowed to change your vote after you do; if you're afraid it'll be viewed as "cheating" for voting more than once, just make a note in the comments section that you're simply changing your vote (believe it takes the last vote you made as the one you chose anyway.)
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Yep. Revoting's fine, I can just merge the votes at the end of the week.
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Well, maybe I'll roll down to the stats pages and sift through the brain numbing numbers, and take a revote then. Or just keep it if I still feel the same. I'll let ya know.
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I think I'm going to keep my votes the way they are. I'm pretty confused on Yuna's weapons though. She can add abilities to her Celestial weapon to gain Darktouch AND combine with 1 MP cost like everyone is mentioning? Celestial Weapons abilities are maxed out already, leaving no room for them to be modded. At least thats what I thought. If thats the case, she can't have both.
So.... If she takes Darktouch over 1 MP Cost, she'll run out of MP very quickly if she wants to stay alive. On the other hand, if she takes 1 MP Cost, she can heal repeatedly without worry, and grab her overdrive in no time. Is there a charge time for her summon? Like, attack free charge? If so, Kratos should have this in the bag. But since Yuna has won so many battles, I'm going to assume there isn't, or at least she can get attacked while summoning and still succeed. Sorry, my mind is on Star Ocean 3 mode, where if they hit you, your spell is broken.
Anyways. Even with summons and all, my vote is staying with Kratos.
And Lani. Cyan is just going to be axe fodder in my opinion.
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There's no charge time at all on summoning, either before or after the actual summon occurs. In addition to this, Yuna is very fast, being just behind Rikku for the fastest PC in FFX. Unless you disallow summons entirely I am not really seeing how Kratos will win, since aeons have both huge damage (at the very least their overdrives would generally be viewed as knocking out most PCs in one hit, and common view has Anima dealing enough damage to KO a typical PC with just her physical) and a variety of status attacks (Anima's Pain inflicts Death, and she also has 100% Sleep/Silence/Darkness/Zombie attacks).
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I think you're confused about the Yuna arguments in general.
Pro Yuna Arguments: Yuna goes first, summons an Aeon, that's that. Kratos can't slug through that many Meat shields (especially since they have a lot of damage too, Anima in particular) before going down first.
Pro Yuna Arguments #2: Some people don't allow Aeons normally. However, they do allow Yuna to use Grand Summon and have an Aeon use an overdrive. Kratos fails to kill Yuna's turtling strategy before she uses Grand Summon and kills him outright (as was noted, Aeon Overdrives do sick damage.)
Yuna Loses Argument: Aeons are not allowed at all, Grand Summon be damned, so Yuna can't really hurt Kratos (Holy, her single way of doing competent damage, is being nulled out here), and since Kratos can replenish TP by just attacking, he has limitless resources with his healing to counter Yuna's incredibly bad damage. Eventually, Yuna runs out of MP, while Kratos does not, and thus, Kratos beats her that. Dark Touch was just a funny point brought up as to show how sad of a fight it is should you see Kratos winning (since it means Kratos beats Yuna on 10% chance hits...)
So...the whole fight is an interp call on Aeons. Far as I can tell, most people allow them, which is why Yuna respect is so high.
Summons, for the record, in FFX are instantaneous actions, and don't even use up the turn; Yuna summons, and the Aeon gets a turn instantly. At the same time, Yuna can't be hurt by any damage while the Aeon is out; this is why I used the term "Meatshield" before. The fact that Yuna has a bunch of them means you have to be really good at surviving to get through all of them and THEN take her out, or be faster than her and stop her before she gets a turn (be kill her outright, or use some sort of status like Sleep that prevents her from acting. Some may argue Suikoden Silent Lake and ilk would be enough too.)
So...yeah, they have no charge time, and don't even take up Yuna's turn, and make her invincible to all attacks until the Aeon dies. Hence the reason why the philosophy of "If Yuna gets a turn, she wins" exists; there isn't really any one in the DL who can beat her who lets her get a turn (on top of the fact that she's naturally fast too.) Those who beat her are the likes of Sephiroth, Kefka, Tir McDohl, etc. who out speed her and can stop her from getting her game going on her first turn.
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I know in the game it doesn't take a turn, but there was always the animation and such, which was what I was going off of, instead of basing it off of the pure turn system. I also assumed that Kratos would be smarter than the average enemy and try and go around the aeon. And I couldn't find a speed rating for Kratos, so I just guessed he was faster having not seen the game in a little while. I never actually realize Yuna's speed was so high either :S
But if we're going by exactly how each ability would work in game....
In that sense, Kratos is effed then. But since I know it wont matter, I'll keep the faith and leave my vote on Kratos :P
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Yuna Loses Argument: Aeons are not allowed at all, Grand Summon be damned, so Yuna can't really hurt Kratos (Holy, her single way of doing competent damage, is being nulled out here), and since Kratos can replenish TP by just attacking, he has limitless resources with his healing to counter Yuna's incredibly bad damage. Eventually, Yuna runs out of MP, while Kratos does not, and thus, Kratos beats her that. Dark Touch was just a funny point brought up as to show how sad of a fight it is should you see Kratos winning (since it means Kratos beats Yuna on 10% chance hits...)
Yuna Loses Argument That Makes Sense: Tales fighters are faster than Yuna and FF10 evade is overrated.
there isn't really any one in the DL who can beat her who lets her get a turn
Myria would like a word with you.
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Ryogo: Vote however you like, though its encouraged you vote based on game play, no one is forcing you to vote a certain way, after all.
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Things that beat all Yuna's summons: I may be funny on this, but considering the general propensity of bosses to blow away summons instantly that Meeplelard lists, I'm generally inclined to allow any major boss dispel effect to work fine on them. Hence I voted Rhapthorne over Yuna (and would vote the same way if I gave Yuna full Aeons at any time), since he can Wave of Ice off Yuna's summons, letting them only have one turn. (And he can get around Yuna's protect-turtling via getting the occasional triple turn thanks to random DQ8 turn order). Also, arguably, if Yuna is stupid and summons them one at a time, and Anima/Magus/(Yojimbo?) are ignored, Yuri might be able to tank through the Aeons, using Energy Charge to finish off their last bit of health quickly and not letting them Overdrive. Of course, Yuri loses anyway, because Yuna again turtles until Grand Summon, and wins that way again.
Ryogo: Holistic thinking in the DL is fine (I certainly allow Tales movement to mean many things), but Kratos case isn't helped by the fact that Sheena's summons generally go "pow" right away. Now, you can ignore the thingies that Boss Sheena summons and just kill her, so your argument has some point, but... even if after Yuna finishes summoning an aeon, if the Aeon goes into overdrive right away Kratos is still flattened. So Yuna would just turtle until Grand Summon to defeat that anyway, even if you give her use of Aeons right off.
Or there's Monkeyfinger's argument, which is certainly fair enough. I've long considered Tales spells slow and interruptable (Genis beating Thomas? WTF?), but I suppose the flipside of that is that physical attacks should be quick. Hmm.
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the general propensity of bosses to blow away summons instantly
This is an ability possessed by only two bosses in the game: Seymour Natus and Seymour Flux. It's noteworthy that while endgame FFX bosses do tend to have Dispel (Yunalesca and Seymour Omnis, aka DL Seymour), said dispel does nothing special against aeons AND said bosses don't have any aeon-killing moves (although Yunalesca's skillset includes a few moves that just happen to trump aeons nicely in-game). I'd be reluctant to generalise a banish-type move to all dispel moves. On the other hand it would be reasonable to generalise it to other transformation-killers like... uh... Brahman's Revert! For when we NEVER RANK HIM EVER.
Kratos was, from the bits of ToS I played, notably slow for a Tales fighter, though. And there are only two PCs in the entire ToS cast relying on magic for offence, IIRC. I can't imagine he'd end up far above average, and beating #2 out of 7 in a non-trivial speed spread requires you to be pretty far above average.
Yuna destroys Yuri because Anima has Sleep Buster regardless. I can't see any good reason to ban Anima - it's completely unique and a noteworthy plot point that she gets it (if optional, but we allow optional things in the DL last I checked). I can see better arguments to ban the first five, honestly!
Anima also OHKOs Rhapthorne as far as I'm concerned, but YMMV with boss scaling, etc. Also given that Wave of Ice doesn't blow away Call Team, letting it blow away aeons seems extra baffling.
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...Rhapthorne's Wave of Ice doesn't even hit the summons in his own game... saying that move in particular cancels shit is just mindblowing.
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1. I ban Call Team anyway. That's not a magical summon; Yuna's Aeons are magical.
2. Don't forget the Sanctuary Keeper's mine that also blows away Aeons.
3. I will freely admit I'm looking for damn near any reasonable excuse I can to gimp Yuna. Yes, these are stretches, and if Yuna is clearly in the right I'll let her have it, but generally judgment calls don't go her way for me.
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2. Don't forget the Sanctuary Keeper's mine that also blows away Aeons.
Actually, that's immunity-piercing ID, which does exactly the same thing to PCs. (It's also Spectral Keeper, but that's a nitpick. Sanctuary Keeper is the one fought on the cliffs before Zanarkand, Spectral is the one in the dome itself right before Yunalesca.)
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Kratos would also be faster than Presea, I'd imagine. She's pretty slow in general for a physical fighter, though the power and a bit of reach are what help make up for it.
I'd also like to look for excuses to nerf Yuna but I always feel guilty about it. I always try to avoid being harder on one character than another just because I like one character more. Of course, I think I'd end up allowing Call Team if I played DQ8, and I allow Yuna all of her plot Aeons and Anima (not sure on Magus Sisters and Yojimbo, and I never got 'em anyways). I take the dispelling of summons pretty literally; if there isn't any precedent for a spell being able to dismiss summons in the home game, then given that regular Dispel from bosses doesn't touch Aeons in FFX, I wouldn't allow the other dispels to either. That is, of course, just how I see it.
I also don't think I allow Kratos to run around the Aeons, given that trying to run around a big guy to get a little guy tends to just get you whacked in-game, unless you time some guarding and back-stepping to get around 'em. I'll give you that he's faster than spells (though I only give them a fraction of their in-game lag), but he's still only fifth in attack speed at best (ahead of Genis, Raine, and possibly Presea and Colette).
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If I'm not mistaken, attack speed (assuming the mages are spellcasting, obviously) is along the lines of Sheena>Lloyd>Regal>Zelos=Kratos>Presea>>Colette>>Raine>Genis, although if you include running speed in that calculation as well Colette loses a bunch of her edge over the mages. General point being that while Kratos isn't really slow, it's probably a stretch to say he's faster than Yuna.
Of course, the idea that an attack that consists of multiple, independently evade-checking blows is guaranteed to kill Yuna is pretty suspect anyway, but that's neither here nor there.
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ARPG attack combos are all or nothing. You miss the first hit and your entire chain is blown, or you connect with it, staggering the opponent and making it impossible for the opponent to dodge any of the folllowing hits.
When checking them vs. evade, they need to be treated as one single attack.
This, incidentally, is why I think the fighters are so fast. Since the success of the combo depends upon the opener, the opener is what I judge speed based off of, not the whole chain. Comparing an opening slash in ToS to a spell from the same game... well, I think you see how badly the spells get the short end of the stick there.
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If it's as horrible as you're suggesting, would the mages just be better off using physicals on average?
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In abyss, maybe.
In Symphonia, as well as every star ocean game, the mages don't even have tech chains, just their basic physicals which barely register as damage.
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One of the things Monkey is totally discounting is how Mages don't care about range at all.
For example, yes, it takes time to cast the spell...but while they're charging, your fighters have to RUN UP to the enemy, then attack. So the spell often resolves a lot faster in practice than its speed vs. a basic combo would suggest.
Furthermore, I could argue that taking that view, Mages can be safe from damage by doing a "Cast Spell, enemy is tied up by the big animation, they run away and start charging again." All things considered, it kind of offsets it.
The speed is being exaggerated too. Yes, Mages are slower than fighters...but they aren't so slow to the point where they are Ghaleon level speed (Nor are Fighters suddenly on par with the likes of Alena for speed.) Hold this against them, but don't go suddenly claiming Fighters are these super speedsters, cause that's not what is happening.
And combos aren't all or none; I've definitely seen on several occasions, in both Tales and Star Ocean games, where you hit with the first attack in the chain...and somewhere in the middle, some of the attacks get blocked, evaded, etc.
Not to mention "All or None" is wrong too; you can easily miss the first hit, but still follow up and succeed on the rest (this...isn't that uncommon a circumstance against fast enemies.)
Really feels like facts are being twisted to make Kratos seem like he has a better chance than he does. ARPG combos aren't all or none...heck, the ACTUAL ATTACK isn't all or none. I know I've definitely seen things like Reid's Omega Demon Chaos get several hits in, but others blocked (unless the enemy was actually in a defensive stance; you have to keep that in mind that in many Tales games, Evading = Auto Defend, in practice, so sometimes, what seems like blocking is actually the enemy jumping into a Defensive stance beforehand), or Fayt's Air Raid yield similar results...
And these series are pretty consistent on this as well, all the way back to the original Tales of Phantasia. I'd be shocked if suddenly ToS was an exception among all this.
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For example, yes, it takes time to cast the spell...but while they're charging, your fighters have to RUN UP to the enemy, then attack.
You're really underestimating how easy it is to do that, at least to a mid/endgame spell, even if there's a full battlefield between the fighter and the mage - which, in the DL, there likely won't be even at the start of the fight since if ample distance is assumed, it leads to:
Furthermore, I could argue that taking that view, Mages can be safe from damage by doing a "Cast Spell, enemy is tied up by the big animation, they run away and start charging again." All things considered, it kind of offsets it.
Kiting arguments, one of the big DL no-nos.
I know I've definitely seen things like Reid's Omega Demon Chaos get several hits in, but others blocked (unless the enemy was actually in a defensive stance; you have to keep that in mind that in many Tales games, Evading = Auto Defend, in practice, so sometimes, what seems like blocking is actually the enemy jumping into a Defensive stance beforehand), or Fayt's Air Raid yield similar results...
I haven't.
You vote based on your own anecdotal evidence, I'll do the same.
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Fun with Tales battle system. Monkey is right, the running time in every single Tales game ever is negligible compared to high end summons. Edit - That was meant to be spells in general.
Other fun, enemies can block mid-combo I believe if they have enough time to get out of their being hit animation and return to a neutral position so that they block, much like most fighter games with neutral guard. Slower combos are more likely to be blocked and broken mid combo (thinking... Omegal Seal maybe just as an example?).
Kiting arguments = looooooooooooooollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll MMO CHARACTERS FOR GODLIEK.
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Furthermore, I could argue that taking that view, Mages can be safe from damage by doing a "Cast Spell, enemy is tied up by the big animation, they run away and start charging again." All things considered, it kind of offsets it.
This usually not apply though, most Tales game ties mages on the spot during the spell animation. In ToS you need to have certain exsphere set up to allow movement during the animation. ToA.... I don't remember.
On whether does the all or none argument stand true, it goes game by game. ToE and SO2/3 are not. ToA is, and ToS I forgot.
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I definitely recall Mithos (who has a ludicrously high block rate.) starting to block mid-combo on those occasions he didn't block from the start. There may be some truth to the idea that it's rarer once they're spam-locked, or I could be wrong! But if you want to test how ToS does it, Mithos is your guy.
(Incidentally, this is why I have any kind of respect for Mithos in the DL.)
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Mithos is also the guy who teleports out of any combo that doesn't instantly stun him, granted. And he can actually take a hit and keep on doing whatever it is he was doing, it's part of what makes him not fail completely. The giant mech form staggers more often for some stupid reason >_>
In ToS, all of your mages can get Compound EX skills that prevent them from getting knocked out of casting their spells. Of course, you tend not to use it for Colette since controlling her is more a case of spamming her techs like Para Ball and Ray Satellite, but if you do the arena with Raine and Genis you will almost certainly need to use it in order to win. Unless you've got some crazy strategy involving physicals and only using wimpy level 1 spells, and even then a lot of enemies there will run up on you while you're casting.
I think you could safely assume that they'd always use this in a 1-on-1 environment, so you could give it to them without the effects of the EX Skills that add up to it. Generally, even high level magic will get fired off after a full combo is done hitting them, so they're still looking a little slow, but not enough to totally cripple them. Now granted, any spell cast-time stuff I'm remembering might have been skewed by EX Skills and Mystic Symbols, but I'm pretty certain that even Indignation won't be giving the opponent time for two whole combos. Enemy AI tends to never ever actually dodge even the most blatantly obvious spells, though I'd certainly put stuff like Indignation as being easily evadable by those who have decent ability for evading magic, and probably missing anyone else not the size of Evil Gaia on occasion. Most people who don't die in three shots of it are bosses, magic tanks that are built for fighting mages like Genis, or Lightning-resistant, in which case he just uses Meteor Storm (unevadable!) at the cost of more speed, or his third best damage which was Explosion if he's T side for Indignation, Prism Sword on S Side.
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Godlike:
Ted (S4) vs Jade (BoF1) - Jade, immune to ID and doesn't die to Ted's physicals.
Kratos Aurion (ToS) vs Yuna (FFX) - Yuna. This was a hard choice. As much as I want to support Kratos, I allow the first five Aeons. Note that due to the Boss Sheena precedent, I'll allow Kratos to run around the Aeon and attack Yuna directly. However, the Aeon damage racks up on Kratos faster than Kratos can finish off Yuna, especially with her evade.
Jenna Angel (DDS) vs Wren (PS4) - Jenna.
Ellen Kirshima (Pers) vs Yuri Volte Hyuga (SHs) - Yuri
Heavy:
Claus F. Lester (ToP) vs Gades (Lufias) - Claus, feeling summon damage respect today.
Nina Wyndia (BoF2) vs Yuber (S3) - Nina has ID, PC Yuber doesn't resist.
Surt (VP1) vs Vulcanus (Disgaea) - Vulcanus
Demi (PS4) vs Kharg (AtL4) - Demi
Middle:
Peter (SF2) vs Karin Koenig (SH2) - Peter slaughters nicely here.
Bright (S3) vs Lute (FE8) - Going to go with Bright here, don't see Lute's evade as that amazing.
Guy (Lufia 2) vs Sara (BoF1) - Hmm... not sure.
Canas (FE7) vs Nino (FE7) - Nino
Light:
Mia Ausa (Lunar:SSSC) vs Gepetto (SH2) - Mia does enough damage to end this quickly.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Frank Goldfinger (SH3) - Ricardo
Lowen (FE7) vs Spar (BoF2) - Lowen. Spar fails.
Lani (FF9) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6) - Lani destroys this pretty nicely.
=Djinn
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Just for the record Djinn, Ted doesn't have any ID >_> Soul Eater got parasitic healing instead of ID in S4