The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => RPGDL Discussion => Topic started by: Cmdr_King on January 29, 2011, 06:58:18 PM
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With Ranking Season going on and the general dwindling of DL interest, the case has been brought up that trimming some of the DL's bulk would be a good thing. And so we turn to booting, the age old DL tradition of death, crime, and the RAGE OF A BEAST. This will be a fairly inclusive topic, and will include both whole game bootings and cast reductions.
Whole game bootings were selected for being generally considered a) old, b) unlikely to attract new players (typically due to c) terribleness). Large casts were selected based on, essentially, asking if we would rank a given character were the game to go through the more rigorous modern selection criteria.
Important- If you do not support bootings at all, please keep your post to a simple vote of Do Not Boot, complete with bold, in order to minimize clutter in an already cluttered topic. Thanks.
Game Bootings- While the entire game is up for booting in these cases, the individual duellers will be listed for those who consider DL history, champships, producing Godlikes, and such forth as considerations in whether to keep a game ranked.
Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits
Darc
Kharg
Brigandine
Cador
Cai
Dryst
Lance
Lyonesse
Vaynard
Zemeckis
Legend of Legaia
Gala
Noa
Songi
Vahn
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom
Aguro
Hero
Jerin
Lufia
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Aisha
Debonair
Destin Faroda
Endora
Fenril
Fogel
Gares
Norn
Rashidi
Rauny
Saradin
Slust
Tristan Zenobia
Yushis
Phantasy Star
Alis Landale
Myau
Noah
Odin
Tales of Destiny
Bruiser Khang
Chelsea Torn
Garr Kelvin
Karyl Sheedan
Leon Magnus
Mary Argent
Philia Felice
Rutee Katrea
Stahn Aileron
Tales of Eternia
Farah Oersted
Keele Ziebel
Max
Meredy
Reid Herschel
Vandal-Hearts
Ash Lambert
Clint Picard
Diego Renault
Eleni Dunbar
Huxley Hobbs
Kira Wulfstan
Sara
Character Specific Bootings- VITAL NOTE: I opted to be inclusive for these large casts. Please read these lists carefully before voting: it's likely people you want to keep ranked are on the lists.
Chrono Cross
Doc
Draggy
Funguy
Irenes
Janice
Korcha
Leah
Luccia
Macha
Mel
Miki
Mojo
Nio-Fio
Orcha
Orlha
Pip
Pashul
Razzly
Skelly
Sneff
Sprigg
Starky
Steena
Turnip
Van
Zappa
Pierre
Guile
Nikki
Glenn
Final Fantasy Tactics
Alma Beoulve
Balk Fenzol
Celia
Izlude Tingel
Lede
Olan Durai
Rofel Wodring
Zalbag Beoulve
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Bartre
Canas
Dorcas
Erk
Fiora
Hawkeye
Heath
Isadora
Legault
Louise
Lowen
Nino
Priscilla
Rath
Raven
Rebecca
Renault
Vaida
Wil
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Artur
Colm
Cormag
Duessel
Forde
Franz
Garcia
Gerik
Innes
L'Arachel
Marisa
Neimi
Rennac
Saleh
Suikoden II
Amada
Anita
Chaco
Freed Yamamoto
Gabocha
Gengen
Gijimu
Karen
Kinnison
Koyu
Long Chan Chan
Lo Wen
Millie
Mukumuku
Rikimaru
Shin
Shirou
Sid
Simone Verdricci
Tsai
Wakaba
Write-ins will not be accepted in this topic, so don't make them!
Topic will run until the second stage of Rankings closes.
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Keep to the entire game(s) listed. Lufia 1 in particular has been (Surprisingly) successful in the DL. For the rest, not so much a huge fan of knocking out entire games at this point. I don't think anything's really changed since the last time we looked at this. There is one exception noted below.
CC: Retire all but Starky, Sneff (At least memorable failure), Orlha, Poshul, Draggy, Guile, Glenn
FFT: Retire Celia, Abstain Alma, Zalbag, Olan, keep rest.
OB: Retire Norn
FE7: Abstain on Bartre, Dorcas, Hawkeye, Heath. Retire Louise, Nino, Wil, keep rest.
FE8: Abstain all but Colm, keep Colm EDIT: Keep Garcia
S2: Retire all but Freed, Gijimu (Ton of DL history, neat fighter), Mukumuku, Shin, Wakaba. Abstain Shiro
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Boot Arc the Lad 4, boot Brigandine, apathy on LoL and Lufia 1, boot Aisha, Norn, Rauny, Saradin, Yushis, Rashidi (all of the non-unique PCs and the fuckin' out of nowhere boss) from OB, keep to everything else, abstain on PS1, keep ToD, boot ToE, boot everything but Ash from VH.
As for culling the herds...
Chrono Cross: Keep Glenn, keep Korcha, boot everything else.
Final Fantasy Tactics
Boot: Alma, Olan, and Zalbag. Olan doesn't translate at all, Alma I consider pretty terrible and a lot of people don't and this annoys me (>_>), and Zalbag's just not a memorable boss.
Keep Rofel because I don't know he's sexy, keep Izlude because he's a memorable boss, keep Balk because LSP is Satan, keep Lede and Celia cuz I dunno, they are memorable.
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Bartre- Boot. Not memorable.
Canas- ONLY DARK MAGE!! Keep.
Dorcas- Boot.
Erk- Keep. Possibly the most popular character in the game.
Fiora- Keep. Falcos are pretty memorable.
Hawkeye- Boot. Meh.
Heath- Boot.
Isadora- Boot.
Legault- Keep! He's fuckin' Legault/proto-Volke/pretty awesome.
Louise- Keep.
Lowen- Boot.
Nino- Boot.
Priscilla- Keep.
Rath- Undecided.
Raven - KEEP.
Rebecca- Undecided.
Renault- Keep.
Vaida- Boot.
Wil- Boot.
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Artur- Boot.
Colm- Keep.
Cormag- B-k-b- wahhh!
Duessel- Keep.
Forde- Boot.
Franz- Boot, I guess.
Garcia- Boot.
Gerik- Keep.
Innes- Keep.
L'Arachel- Keep.
Marisa- Boot.
Neimi- Keep.
Rennac- Keep.
Saleh- Boot.
Suikoden II
Amada- Boot.
Anita- Boot.
Chaco- Boot.
Freed Yamamoto- Keep.
Gabocha- Boot.
Gengen- Keep.
Gijimu- Boot.
Karen- Boot.
Kinnison- Boot.
Koyu- Boot.
Long Chan Chan- Boot.
Lo Wen- Boot.
Millie- Boot.
Mukumuku- See Cormag.
Rikimaru- Boot.
Shin- Who? Boot.
Shirou- Keep.
Sid- Boot.
Simone Verdricci- Boot.
Tsai- Boot.
Wakaba- Boot.
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In general, inclined to boot the more obscure games to keep vote totals manageable.
Boot AtL4. I argued vociferously for keeping Kharg and Darc before but that was before I knew some people let them have airship support which is a really horrible interp issue to my mind so meh.
Boot Brig and LoL. Abstain Lufia 1, I'd be fine with booting it personally but super says it actually draws okay.
Boot OB. Always on the obscure side, if a good game, so. We also ranked a lot of optional / obscure characters but not near-mandatory and easy to interpret ones like Lans fearing game formsplit apparently, so meh. If we kept one, I'd say Debonair - early boss form is pretty memorable, if nothing else.
Boot PS. Maybe keep FW Alis, dunno.
Boot the "meh" Tales games, sure.
Boot VH. Keeping FW Ash would be fine I guess.
CC... keep the set-aside list of Pierre, Guile, Nikki, and Glenn. Those are all pretty memorable. Sure, go ahead and boot the rest.
FFT is fine. Boot Zalbaaaaaaaag! I guess, Blood Suck is in an interp headache. Everyone else is fine. If Alma is an interp split, it's at least an interesting interp split.
FE7 was probably a bit overranked, but I have no idea what to cut, so it might be better just to keep them all. Tentative abstain to Hawkeye, Heath, Rath, and Vaida (all of whom have questionable amounts of use - Rath rejoining really late for example). Keep the rest.
FE8 is fine. Abstain on Artur, Forde, and Franz. Keep the rest.
S2 is massively overranked. Boot them all.
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Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits
Keep them both.
Brigandine
Keep - Cai, Lyonesse, Lance, and Dryst
Boot - Cador, Vaynard, and Zemeckis
Legend of Legaia
Keep them all.
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom
Keep them all.
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Keep - Destin Faroda, Endora, Fenril, Fogel, Gares, Rashidi, Slust, Tristan Zenobia
Boot - Aisha, Debonair, Norn, Rauny, Saradin, Yushis
Phantasy Star
Keep - Alis
Boot - Myau, Noah, and Odin
Tales of Destiny
Boot them all.
Tales of Eternia
Keep them all.
Vandal Hearts
Keep them all.
Chrono Cross
Keep - Draggy, Glenn, Guile, Irenes, Janice, Leah, Miki, Nikki, Orcha, Orlha, Pierre, Pip, Razzly, Starky, Steena, Zappa
Abstain on the rest.
Final Fantasy Tactics
Keep - Balk, Celia, Izlude, Lede, Zalbag
Boot - Alma, Olan, Rofel
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Keep - Bartre, Canas, Erk, Fiora, Legault, Nino, Priscilla, Rath, Raven, Rebecca, Wil
Boot - Dorcas, Hawkeye, Heath, Isadora, Louise, Lowen, Renault, Vaida
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Keep - Artur, Colm, Duessel, Forde, Franz, Gerik, Innes, L'Arachel, Marisa, Neimi
Boot - Cormag, Garcia, Rennac, Saleh
Suikoden II
Keep - Chaco, Freed, Gengen, Gijimu, Karen, Kinnison, Koyu, Lo Wen, Millie, Rikimaru, Shin, Shiro, Tsai, Wakaba
Boot - Amada, Anita, Gabocha, Long Chan Chan, Mukumuku, Sid, Simone
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Not voting yet, but...I'm going to throw out stuff on the table. Like...Connie...for a rank that is supposed to be all about having fans, Connie was claimed for writeups...weeks after everyone else during her time in. If similar characters are like, not sure what the purpose of keeping them around is given that their end effect is to cause additional delays.
So, guess I'm saying bring up some of S1 and S3. Krin for certain (I'm...not sure that after being robbed by Hanako, who is almost universally agreed to be utter trash, that you really still should be in....)
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Keep Legaia/Lufia1/PS1 for the Richardpremacy
Keep ToD so that bad game streak wasn't a complete waste
Kill Brig, AtL4
I'll let other people handle OB/VH/ToE/scrub lists aside from FEs, for the FE list I will copy-paste Ciato's with slight edits
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Bartre- Boot. Not memorable.
Canas- ONLY DARK MAGE!! Keep.
Dorcas- Boot.
Erk- Keep. THE most popular character in the game.
Fiora- Keep. Falcos are pretty memorable.
Hawkeye- Boot. Meh.
Heath- Boot.
Isadora- Keep
Legault- Keep! He's fuckin' Legault/proto-Volke/pretty awesome.
Louise- Boot
Lowen- Boot.
Nino- Boot.
Priscilla- Keep.
Rath- Undecided.
Raven - KEEP.
Rebecca- Keep
Renault- Keep.
Vaida- Boot.
Wil- Boot.
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Artur- Boot.
Colm- Keep.
Cormag- Boot
Duessel- Keep.
Forde- Boot.
Franz- Boot, I guess.
Garcia- Boot.
Gerik- Keep.
Innes- Keep.
L'Arachel- Keep.
Marisa- Boot.
Neimi- Keep.
Rennac- Keep.
Saleh- Boot.
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AtL4: Boot. Just finish the game off, Giant Owl is a stupid thing to have on one of your only remaining ranks. OH LET'S DECIDE IF THE ARENA IS INDDORS OR NOT GUYS
Brig: At the very least boot Cador, he's not even a main (actually I think it's silly that the non-playable-without-codes nation is the only one with two characters!). Abstain on the rest.
Legaia 1: Eh... abstain.
Lufia 1: Keep, think it's actually done pretty well as Super has said. As much as the game is complete shit.
Ogre Battle: I'd be in favour of some level of trimming, probably, but I dunno what. Keep Fogel and Fenril, abstain on the rest, and if someone wants to argue me on specifics please do.
Phantasy Star: Abstain.
Tales of Destiny: Abstain.
Tales of Eternia: If this one is still as bad at drawing as I remember, boot? If people still -care- about this game I will change this vote, so speak up. As is I'm under the impression it doesn't even have the Brig "hey people really like this game" excuse, so bye~
Vandal Hearts: Abstain.
Chrono Cross: Boot Janice, Pierre, Pip, Sprigg (all have specific interp problems on top of being CC). Keep Glenn, Miki, Nikki, Steena, and Skelly (because I like him; screw the rest of you). Abstain on the rest, wooo apathy.
FFT: Keep Celia and Lede. Boot Elmdor. Boot Zalbag because I hates my Blood Suck. Keep Alma, too much history there. Keep Izlude, Rofel, and Balk - these guys are memorable to me (Izzy and Rofel as characters, Balk because LSP is indeed satan). Abstain on Olan - memorable in plot and gameplay but that transition is argh.
FE7: Keep Fiora (middle finalist), Erk (memorable as first mage/personality), Louise (gets in-game use for that Pent support!), Legault (memorable), Raven (duh). Boot Nino due to that split on level. Abstain on the rest.
FE8: Keep L'Arachel (plenty of plot), Colm (Grefter), Rennac (Tonfa). Boot Forde (just because it's weird having him ranked and not Kyle), Garcia (replace Kyle with Ross, see previous). Abstain on the rest.
Suikoden 2: Keep Shiro (WOLF EAT EARLYGAME), Gijimu (former champ), Freed (forced/memorable). Abstain on the rest.
All abstentions represent highly arguable positions for me. Some keeps/boots are too, for that matter. 'cept Raven, that's crazy talk.
EDIT: All CC, FE, and S2 abstentions I am now switching to boots.
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Keep all. Will make comments later. For now.
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Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits- Boot
Brigandine- Abstain (Where is my stat topic Super?!)
Legend of Legaia- Abstain
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom- Abstain
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Boot- Norn, Yushis, and Saradin I think. Abstain rest
Phantasy Star- Boot
Tales of Destiny- Keep. This game has performed really well for the part (Even including the mystery that is Philia)
Tales of Eternia- Boot. This game, less so
Vandal-Hearts- Keep Ash, boot rest
Character Specific Bootings- VITAL NOTE: I opted to be inclusive for these large casts. Please read these lists carefully before voting: it's likely people you want to keep ranked are on the lists.
Chrono Cross (This near completely random)
Boot: Janice, Sprigg, Pip, Van, Pierre, Doc, Funguy, Mel, Skelly, Turnip
Keep: Poshul, Leah, Gleen, Guile, Nikki, Draggy, Korcha, Luccia, Sneff, Starky, Steena, Zappa
Abstain: Irenes, Macha, Miki, Mojo, Neo-Fio, Orcha, Orlha, Razzly
Final Fantasy Tactics
Boot: Alma (Non equip changing temp...), Olan (Non-translating temp), Zalbag, Rofel. Keep rest
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Boot: Bartre (Irrelevant), Dorcas (Ditto), Isadora, Lowen, Nino, Priscilla, Raven (That's...a bad recruitment chain), Rath, Renault, Wil, Vaida
Keep: Canas, Erk, Fiora
Abstain: Louise, Rebecca, Heath, Hawkeye, Legault
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Boot: Saleh (Oh god, he's horrible), Duessel (He may have plot, but he's also kind of a Puny), Garcia (At least Duessel has plot), Rennac (Plotless, really bad, THERE ARE ALREADY LIKE 3 BETTER CHOICES FROM THIS GAME), Gerik, Marisa (Both of these are notably later than show others which is the ding)
Keep: Colm, Artur, Innes (Too much plot), L'Arachel, Cormag
Abstain: Forde, Franz, Neimi (All early enough to make them questionable)
S1: Boot Krin, Milia, Sylvina, Yam Koo
S2: Retire all but Freed, Gijimu (Ton of DL history, neat fighter), Shin, Wakaba. Abstain Shiro
S3: Boot Alanis, Belle, Connie, Edge, Gagdet Z, three male dogs that weren't the main one, Lulu, Nei (You are awesome in game. It's is completely irrelevant DL wise), Rody, Sanae, Toppo
Earthbound: Boot all but Ness.
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Oh right, more!
FF 9- Boot Blank, Marcus, Cinna. Highly limited early game never rejoining temps are bad.
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What do you mean by 'bad recruitment chain'? You just need Priscilla to recruit him. (Who all you need to do is go into a house to recruit.)
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Isn't it Erk->Priscilla->Raven. Truth be told, it's the using the L3 healer for recruitment that I find to be the bad part.
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Erk's not involved. Priscilla is fiiine. Her +1 move on Serra means you should use her even if she's lower levelled!
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+2 move, actually.
Also oh no, having to use a Lv3 healer with 7 movement to recruit somebody who charges towards you on a map with choke points and the terror that is FE generic enemies how will people manage ::)
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Guess I just naturally side with the more durable healer than never risks the doubles. Also, plotlessness isn't on their side, but Priscilla at least being recruitable by anyone helps.
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I fail to see how kicking out anyone will cause interest to go up, but...
Do Not Boot
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-Full games-
A vote for keeping for the full games does not imply that I would prefer keeping all the characters (or even any of the characters currently ranked, necessarily). It just means that I vote for the game to not be booted out of hand. I don't know most of these people anyway.
Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits - Keep
Brigandine - Keep
Legend of Legaia - Keep
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom - Keep
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen - Keep
Phantasy Star - Keep
Tales of Destiny - Keep
Tales of Eternia - Keep
Vandal-Hearts - Keep
-Individual characters-
Chrono Cross
- Abstain on all
Final Fantasy Tactics
Alma Beoulve - Keep
Balk Fenzol - Keep
Celia - Boot
Izlude Tingel - Keep
Lede - Boot
Olan Durai - Keep
Rofel Wodring - Boot
Zalbag Beoulve - Keep
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Bartre - Keep
Canas - Keep
Dorcas - Boot
Erk - Boot
Fiora - Boot
Hawkeye - Keep
Heath - Keep
Isadora - Boot
Legault - Boot
Louise - Keep
Lowen - Boot
Nino - Keep
Priscilla - Keep
Rath - Boot
Raven - Keep
Rebecca - Boot
Renault - Keep
Vaida - Boot
Wil - Boot
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Artur - Keep
Colm - Keep
Cormag - Keep
Duessel - Keep
Forde - Boot
Franz - Boot
Garcia - Boot
Gerik - Keep
Innes - Keep
L'Arachel - Keep
Marisa - Boot
Neimi - Boot
Rennac - Keep
Saleh - Boot
Suikoden II
Amada - Boot
Anita - Boot
Chaco - Boot
Freed Yamamoto - Keep
Gabocha - Boot
Gengen - Boot
Gijimu - Boot
Karen - Boot
Kinnison - Boot
Koyu - Boot
Long Chan Chan - Boot
Lo Wen - Boot
Millie - Boot
Mukumuku - Keep
Rikimaru - Boot
Shin - Boot
Shirou - Boot
Sid - Boot
Simone Verdricci - Boot
Tsai - Boot
Wakaba - Boot
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Bootings are not needed.
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Keep all games.
Really not worth it at this point. Any damage they could do has long since been done and booting for votes is vaguely academic when the high-playership core is mostly what's left at this point. Most of them will languish with occasional rare times in, ala BCB's more off games, at this stage. Which is how it should be.
For cast trimming...
CC abstain in general. CC is one of those games that I feel like the people feel strongly about should stay in and I don't feel strongly about anyone in the cast, so.
FFT keep.
FE7, boot Isadora, Louise, Dorcas, Nino, Legault. Abstain on the rest. These seem clear locks based on relative popularity/performance/in Nino's case the infamous splits on her performance along with the other two issues. If people want to boot other stuff I don't want to get in their way; Half of this at least is how popular the filler character is, and while CC has a quirky weird cast I find hard to read for this, FE I feel like I can make some comments on.
FE8, boot Garcia, Artur, Saleh, Caellach, Valter(Aware these two aren't on the list. But they have 0/2 records-granted Valter's are to Heavies, and he hasn't gotten in since then-and have the issue of being...less memorable than usual for FE bosses I think?). Abstain on the rest.
Suikoden 2, abstain. bla bla see CC whatever people want in Iiiii can't judge the popularity of these guys and a lot of 'em bore me. Keep Gijimu though. Didn't he both have a notable DL rune AND was a former champ?
Anything else: Keep, just in case some more stuff gets on the list. Basically I want to make sure I read it before I even throw an abstain it's way, as booting is something I consider a small trimming process mostly these days.
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I fail to see how kicking out anyone will cause interest to go up, but...
Essentially, reducing the number of duellers nobody cares about (whether because they haven't played a given game or because the dueller is somebody they don't remember, never used, or just plain sucks as a dueller) leads to a high percentage of matches people care about voting on. Perhaps negligibly so! But that's the theory behind it.
Dhyer: like I said, I'm not taking any write-ins >.>
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Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits: Abstain.
Brigandine: Abstain.
Legend of Legaia: Keep Songi, abstain on rest, can be argued to a keep on anyone but Gala who just doesn't translate interestingly.
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom: Keep.
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen: Boot Aisha, Norn, Saradin, Yushis, Rauny. Can be argued on all five but I'm not worried about booting any more from this, so Keep the rest.
Phantasy Star: Abstain.
Tales of Destiny: Abstain.
Tales of Eternia: Meh, I like the cast but it doesn't have much in terms of playership and I don't care enough. Abstain on Reid/Farah/Keele/Meredy, will support Boot on Max for being later in the game relatively. And tangentially to Sage I don't know many in the DL that have even played this which is why I don't mind if it goes.
Vandal-Hearts: Abstain.
Chrono Cross
Boot: Funguy, Irenes, Janice, Mel, Neo-Fio, Pip, Sprigg, Turnip, Van. Hi mid-late game people that may or may not be optional but I don't really see myself able to support.
Abstain: Razzly, Pierre, Guile, Nikki
Keep: Rest
Final Fantasy Tactics:
Abstain: Celia, Zalbag, Balk, Olan, anyone else not specified
Keep: Rofel, Lede, Izlude
I Would Say Boot Except I'm Horribly Horribly Biased Against This Character Due To Interp Splits And All The Other Messes About This Character And So She Kinda Personifies My Main Issue With One-Fight Temps (She At Least Has Two Forms) And Thus I Don't Know If I Should Recuse Myself From Voting On Her: Alma
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Keep: Canas, Erk, Hawkeye, Priscilla, Rath, Raven
Boot: Nino
Abstain: Rest
I Only Feel Like Keeping One Archer And Don't Terribly Care Which: Rebecca, Wil (Read as Abstain)
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Keep: Colm, Cormag, Artur, Innes, L'Arachel, Neimi, Saleh
Abstain: Rest
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I fail to see how kicking out anyone will cause interest to go up, but...
Essentially, reducing the number of duellers nobody cares about (whether because they haven't played a given game or because the dueller is somebody they don't remember, never used, or just plain sucks as a dueller) leads to a high percentage of matches people care about voting on. Perhaps negligibly so! But that's the theory behind it.
Shin vs. Gabocha would probably make most people go "wha?" to at least one of them and not care about the other. Apathy is bad for interest.
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Shin vs. Gabocha would probably make most people go "wha?" to at least one of them and not care about the other. Apathy is bad for interest.
I firmly believe that there is no benefit to booting anyone because it will not generate any interest in the DL. If people are apathetic about the DL then it is something that can be solved by having new people in, not kicking old people out. At least, that's how I feel.
EDIT: Also, I thought the idea in having lots of different casts in was to motivate people to play different games. If we only have series in the DL that 100% of the people who vote could even vote on (as impossible as that would be to calculate in the first place) we'd barely have anything at all.
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It doesn't generate interest, but neither does having people in who people don't even remember. Saying '100% of people play this!' is a strawman since that is hardly what's being proposed. At a certain point, you realize you obviously haven't gotten people to play games like Lufia 1 and Ogre Battle, but say, Rashidi vs. Kefka prevents someone from voting on someone who they like! I think this is a good way to make people go "Oh, well, that's lame."
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EDIT: Also, I thought the idea in having lots of different casts in was to motivate people to play different games. If we only have series in the DL that 100% of the people who vote could even vote on (as impossible as that would be to calculate in the first place) we'd barely have anything at all.
Ciato touched on this, but more explicitly; the games I put up for wholesale booting are all games that are considered bad or severely dated, and thus no one who hasn't already played them is likely to express interest in playing them now. For example, I picked up the Genesis Collection on PS3, meaning I could actually play Phantasy Star 1 entirely legally. I never will, because it sounds godawful.
Also keep in mind of course that this was sort of a spaghetti toss of a booting, because I knew from the outset that I didn't want to hunt down write-ins and whip people into changing their votes and the like (which have historically been the reason a lot of these games have never been booted, frankly, super didn't put them up and nobody wrote them in fast enough to get the ball rolling.) So whenever I get around to voting, I'm actually going to suggest keeping a lot of stuff. But, I did want to be even in how I judged boot-worthiness so to speak.
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Abstain on everything not explicitly mentioned below.
Legend of Legaia - Keep
Chrono Cross
Doc
Draggy - Keep
Funguy
Irenes
Janice
Korcha - Keep
Leah - Keep
Luccia - Keep
Macha
Mel
Miki - Keep
Mojo
Nio-Fio
Orcha - Keep
Orlha - Keep
Pip
Pashul - Keep
Razzly - Keep
Skelly
Sneff - Keep
Sprigg
Starky - Keep
Steena - Keep
Turnip
Van
Zappa - Keep
Pierre - Keep
Guile - Keep
Nikki - Keep
Glenn - Keep
Final Fantasy Tactics
Alma Beoulve
Balk Fenzol - Keep
Celia - Keep
Izlude Tingel - Keep
Lede - Keep
Olan Durai
Rofel Wodring - Keep
Zalbag Beoulve
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Bartre
Canas
Dorcas
Erk - Keep
Fiora
Hawkeye
Heath
Isadora
Legault
Louise - Keep
Lowen
Nino
Priscilla - Keep
Rath
Raven
Rebecca
Renault
Vaida
Wil
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Artur - Keep
Colm - Keep
Cormag
Duessel
Forde
Franz
Garcia
Gerik
Innes
L'Arachel - Keep
Marisa
Neimi
Rennac
Saleh
-
Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits
Darc - Boot.
Kharg - Keep. Kharg is ever so slightly more interesting to me.
Brigandine
Cador - Keep.
Cai - Keep.
Dryst - Keep.
Lance - Keep.
Lyonesse - Keep.
Vaynard - Keep.
Zemeckis - Keep.
It's less a question of the characters than the game. I'd rather keep them in.
Legend of Legaia
Gala - Boot.
Noa - Boot.
Songi - Boot.
Vahn - Keep.
Vahn can stay as a token.
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom
Aguro - Keep.
Hero - Keep.
Jerin - Keep.
Lufia - Keep.
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Aisha - Boot.
Debonair - Keep.
Destin Faroda - Keep.
Endora - Boot.
Fenril - Keep.
Fogel - Keep.
Gares - Keep. Fighting him several times helps.
Norn - Boot.
Rashidi - Keep.
Rauny - Boot.
Saradin - Boot.
Slust - Keep.
Tristan Zenobia - Keep.
Yushis - Keep.
Tales of Destiny
Bruiser Khang - Boot.
Chelsea Torn - Keep.
Garr Kelvin - Keep.
Karyl Sheedan - Keep.
Leon Magnus - Keep.
Mary Argent - Keep.
Philia Felice - Keep.
Rutee Katrea - Keep.
Stahn Aileron - Keep.
Tales of Eternia
Farah Oersted - Keep.
Keele Ziebel - Keep.
Max - Keep.
Meredy - Keep.
Reid Herschel - Keep.
Vandal-Hearts
Ash Lambert - Keep.
Clint Picard - Boot.
Diego Renault - Boot.
Eleni Dunbar - Boot.
Huxley Hobbs - Boot
Kira Wulfstan - Boot.
Sara - Boot.
Character Specific Bootings- VITAL NOTE: I opted to be inclusive for these large casts. Please read these lists carefully before voting: it's likely people you want to keep ranked are on the lists.
Chrono Cross
Boot 'em all.
Final Fantasy Tactics
Alma Beoulve - Boot.
Balk Fenzol - Boot.
Celia - Keep.
Izlude Tingel - Keep.
Lede - Keep.
Olan Durai - Keep.
Rofel Wodring - Keep.
Zalbag Beoulve - Keep.
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Boot 'em all.
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Boot 'em all.
Suikoden II
Amada - Keep.
Anita - Keep.
Chaco - Boot.
Freed Yamamoto - Boot.
Gabocha - Boot.
Gengen - Boot.
Gijimu - Keep.
Karen - Keep.
Kinnison - Keep.
Koyu - Boot.
Long Chan Chan - Keep.
Lo Wen - Keep.
Millie - Keep.
Mukumuku - Keep.
Rikimaru - Keep.
Shin - Keep.
Shirou - Keep.
Sid - Boot.
Simone Verdricci - Boot.
Tsai - Keep.
Wakaba - Keep.
-
BOOT BRIGANDINE
BOOT VANDAL HEARTS
KEEP EVERYTHING ELSE
Details:
I would support tossing Legend of Legaia, but it has SONGI so it stays.
CC scrubs are fun.
Suikoden scrubs are fun. I soon rather boot Tengaar because she gets in every 3 seasons and RUINS MIDDLE.
Booting FE7/8 random people means no Rennac/Isadora/Renault, and WE CAN'T HAVE THAT.
Keep everyone from FFT because OK LOVES YOU. Seriously, it's FFT. You could probably get away ranking EVERYTHING from that game.
Keep ToD/ToE.
I don't really care about AtL4. I wouldn't miss it if it got booted but I wouldn't rage if one character got in every 3 seasons.
I haven't played Ogre Battle so I wouldn't care to see it and there's one or two duelers that always gets in and ruins a division but meh.
Lufia 1 should stay.
-
Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits - Keep both. I argued pretty hard to keep a token selection from this game before. For all that I support trimming large forgetable cast, I feel having a large variety of different games is a boon to the DL in terms of people seeing a game they know and remember. And if it's highly unlikely that people wouldn't know it, as AtL4 has fairly low playership, then just having 2 duelists from it isn't going to destroy interest. This is my general stance on ranking in general: High Game Selection, Low number of duelists per game.
Having small numbers of duelists from unpopular games is good, because that way we'll have less matches where people can't vote/don't know anyone, and these games won't even be capable of flooding. However, having a large number of different games is good - it increases the chances that someone's favorite obscure RPG has a representative, and generally one or two PCs is enough for someone who likes a game. And the only time I see our new people or our non-regular group is when they post their nom lists, so I think this is best solution for both keeping variety and increasing accessibility.
In addition, Darc and Kharg are some of our relatively-small number of non-human duelists, and it would be nice to see some of those species-weakness-hitting duelists have something to hit weakness on.
Brigandine - Keep mains, abstain Cador. I notice that in the introduction here CK mentioned that we're trying to boot bad games, but as small as Brig's playership is, I feel it's a fairly solid RPG, and the -only- ranked game that I'd never heard of before I came to the DL. I played it -because- it was ranked, and I really enjoyed it. And because -I- was playing it (and leaving it open on my laptop in the communal dorms at college), a bunch of my roommates started playing it, too. Brig feels like the DL's mascot game, and booting 6 duelists when it has decent internal playership just seems like a waste. I wouldn't mind a smaller ranking, but we're already down to the mains+Cador. Also notable that we (suddenly) already have writeups for the whole ranked cast now, so all the work for them is done for the foreseeable future.
Legend of Legaia - Keep all. There's only 4 duelists and at the very least Noa is a fun duelist and has fans. Songi and Gala are infamous enough. Only Vahn is boring, but he's the main and gets in maybe once in 20 seasons or something, so who cares?
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom - Keep all. Performs well enough, not over-ranked.
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen - Clearly still has fans and interest, so I don't mind if everything gets kept, but I support a little trimming.
Aisha - Boot.
Debonair - Keep.
Destin Faroda - Keep.
Endora - Keep.
Fenril - Keep.
Fogel - Keep.
Gares - Keep.
Norn - Boot.
Rashidi - Keep.
Rauny - Boot.
Saradin - Boot.
Slust - Keep.
Tristan Zenobia - Keep.
Yushis - Boot.
Phantasy Star - Keep Alis,Myau. Boot Odin,Noah. Such a small rank, and I'd want to keep Alis at the least. Myau is also a personal favorite of mine and another of our uncommon non-human duelists. Also, one of our few(only?) ranked cats. I don't care about Odin one way or the other, and Noah could always be part of RuneAll.
Tales of Destiny - Keep all. Performs well enough. Not great, but not a drain. Also, Tales games get re-released like Lunars, so eventually this will probably get another stateside release.
Tales of Eternia - Keep Reid, Boot Max, Abstain rest. This one seems to draw less attention even in Japan, so I have less hope for it, but I don't want to see it completely gone, of course. A small rank is fine.
Vandal-Hearts - Keep Ash, Boot rest. Another game I only played because of the DL. Ash is really the only interesting thing about the cast, duelling-wise. Also, we ranked a bunch of the cast, but somehow missed the mighty Grog Drinkwater! The game just felt lackluster as a whole, and I often forget it's even ranked, except for Ash.
Character Specific Bootings
Chrono Cross - The very definition of overranked in my opinion.
Doc - Boot. Boring, forgetable, plotless.
Draggy - Keep. Memorable, Non-human.
Funguy - Abstain. Memorable, Non-human, but too obscure.
Irenes - Keep. Memorable, Non-human, has plot, fairly interesting duelist for CC.
Janice - Boot. Non-human, but plotless and forgetable. Only notable dueling worth is the unique weapon, I think?
Korcha - Keep. As much as I hate him, Plot.
Leah - Boot.
Luccia - Boot.
Macha - Boot.
Mel - Boot.
Miki - Keep. Memorable, has fans, some plot, decent duelist.
Mojo - Boot. Memorable, Non-human, early-game.
Nio-Fio - Boot. Non-human... uhh... that's it. Kinda obscure and meh duelist.
Orcha - Boot. Boss form is stupid, plotless otherwise.
Orlha - Keep. Guess she has fans, but I don't think she's worth keeping.
Pip - Boot. Memorable (infamous at least), Non-human, variable typing makes him kinda interesting.
Poshul - Keep. Earlygame, Memorable!, Non-human.
Razzly - Keep. Same as above + Lots of plot.
Skelly - Keep. Undeads are so rare in the DL, the white mages need more punching bags.
Sneff - Boot. Go away forever, you worthless, plotless, infuriating, ugly, .... >:(
Sprigg - Boot. Some plot, transforming could be interesting. EDIT: If we had any stats for it after 63 seasons...
Starky - Boot. I just hate him.
Steena - Boot. Plot, I guess. EDIT: But forgettable and redundant!
Turnip - Boot. Obscure, lategame, useless, but non-human
Van - Boot.
Zappa - Boot.
Pierre - Keep.
Guile - Keep.
Nikki - Keep.
Glenn - Keep. These four are all splitpath, but far more interesting/memorable than most of the cast of CC.
Final Fantasy Tactics - Whatever, it's FFT, the DL can support ranking generics from this from what I can tell.
Alma Beoulve - Keep.
Balk Fenzol - Boot
Celia - Boot
Izlude Tingel - Keep
Lede - Boot
Olan Durai - Boot
Rofel Wodring - Boot
Zalbag Beoulve - Keep
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword - Finally! I <3 FE7, but damn it was overranked with identical duelists.
Bartre - Boot
Canas - Keep. I don't think we have any other Dark Mages ranked from FE?
Dorcas - Boot
Erk - Keep!
Fiora - Keep!
Hawkeye - Boot
Heath - Boot
Isadora - Boot
Legault - Boot
Louise - Boot
Lowen - Boot
Nino - Boot
Priscilla - Boot
Rath - Boot
Raven - Keep
Rebecca - Keep
Renault - Boot
Vaida - Boot
Wil - Boot
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones - FE8 wasn't nearly as bad, but I don't mind getting rid of a few of these guys.
Artur - Boot. Don't need another Lucius
Colm - Keep. Of course.
Cormag - Keep. We don't have that many Dragon Riders if we boot Vaida and Heath.
Duessel - Keep.
Forde - Boot.
Franz - Boot.
Garcia - Boot. We have FE9 Axe-users now.
Gerik - Keep. Memorable enough.
Innes - Keep. Plot.
L'Arachel - Keep!!!!!!!!!!!
Marisa - Boot. Fan-favorite. EDIT: But no plot and redundant with Joshua.
Neimi - Keep. Of course.
Rennac - Boot.
Saleh - Boot. Keep. Only FE summoner, for all that it almost never matters. Like I ever used Saleh. I just remember that there were Summoners, I thought he was the only one you got?
Suikoden II - Not sure why this is on the chopping block but VP1 is ignored, but I'd be happy to trim both. Seriously though, this game is just as well-loved and popular, and equally overranked.
Amada - Boot
Anita - Boot
Chaco - Keep. Plot, non-human
Freed Yamamoto - Keep.
Gabocha - Boot.
Gengen - Keep. Forced, and I like dogs.
Gijimu - Keep
Karen - Boot
Kinnison - Boot
Koyu - Boot
Long Chan Chan - Boot
Lo Wen - Boot
Millie - Keep, Earlygame and memorable.
Mukumuku - Keep
Rikimaru - Boot
Shin - Boot
Shirou - Keep
Sid - Keep
Simone Verdricci - Boot
Tsai - Boot
Wakaba - Boot
-
Saleh doesn't summon, Djinni. Just a generic pre-promoted Sage.
-
Djinn: honestly because VP1 characters are just infinitely more memorable than Suikoden II characters due to how recruitment works. The fact that, honestly, a VP1 booting would be basically "the entire VP1 cast except maybe Mystina" (that is, everyone who didn't get a VP2 option) because everyone is right around the same in terms of skillset and plot worth didn't help, of course.
If it makes you feel better, I actually did ask and people said the same thing I kneejerked so.
-
Saleh is Pent minus.
-
Djinn: honestly because VP1 characters are just infinitely more memorable than Suikoden II characters due to how recruitment works. The fact that, honestly, a VP1 booting would be basically "the entire VP1 cast except maybe Mystina" (that is, everyone who didn't get a VP2 option) because everyone is right around the same in terms of skillset and plot worth didn't help, of course.
If it makes you feel better, I actually did ask and people said the same thing I kneejerked so.
That's... yeah, I guess that's valid. Though I wouldn't be too unhappy with a Boot All VP1-only Einherjar except Jelanda, Lawfer, Lucian, Mystina deal. And maybe have room for some fan favorites like Badrach, Shiho, Yumei, Aelia. But dropping say... Suo, Grey, Kashell, Nanami, GANDAR... it just seems like it would cut out some of the filler.
-
"Please mention any edits" disclaimer goes in this topic as well.
-
Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits
Boot All. Not a lot to say, pretty well the first game I thought of when it came to "games with no real DL future". Pity, it's better than the rest of that series as a game.
Brigandine
Boot All. You had a good run, Brig, but so goes.
Legend of Legaia
Keep All. Shockingly! This is like the most supported game in the topic. Funny. Anyway, I'll bow to that sort of support.
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom
Boot All. I've played rather a lot of the DL at this point. I never intend to play this game. Get us a remake and we'll talk I guess.
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Boot All. I want to go through and basically boot the lesser half of this cast, but I haven't played it. But most of the cast has very little boot voting, so shouldn't screw anyone over with this. If it's on the fence of booting someone noteworthy Ciato will probably kick me later >.>
Phantasy Star
Boot All. See earlier post where I used PS1 as an example of a terrible game nobody would play anymore.
Tales of Destiny
Boot All. Did'ja know ToD is like $75 online? Me neither!
Tales of Eternia
Boot All. We kinda already cut bone here I feel, so best to just get it out of the way.
Vandal-Hearts
Keep All. Vandal-Hearts is mostly inoffensive, pretty good by year one PS1 standards even!
Chrono Cross- Everyone I'm keeping will have some justification or other.
Doc- Boot
Draggy- Boot
Funguy- Boot
Irenes- Boot
Janice- Boot
Korcha- Boot
Leah- Boot
Luccia- Boot
Macha- Boot
Mel- Boot
Miki- Boot
Mojo- Boot
Nio-Fio- Boot
Orcha- Keep. Two main reasons. He's relatively memorable because of the whole 'hell's cook' thing, and because a red character with healing is pretty unique and cool as CC goes.
Orlha- Keep. Orlha is just a subjective favorite for some reason. She IS halfways memorable though.
Pip- Boot
Pashul- Boot
Razzly- Boot
Skelly- Boot
Sneff- Boot
Sprigg- Boot
Starky- Boot
Steena- Boot
Turnip- Boot
Van- Boot
Zappa- Boot
Pierre- Keep. He's cool dammit.
Guile- Keep. Because I'm voting to keep Pierre and Nikki, so objectively I can't not keep Guile.
Nikki- Keep. He has a lot of side plots in the game, in addition to being the best Viper's Manor path anyway.
Glenn- Keep. Unintuitive to get or no, he's memorably good.
Final Fantasy Tactics- For easier reading, comments on Keepers only.
Alma Beoulve- Keep. Alma's ultimate haste-healer thing is pretty badass.
Balk Fenzol- Boot
Celia- Keep. Unlike LSP, where Balk is NOT why you remember that map, Celia and Lede are why you remember rooftop.
Izlude Tingel- Boot
Lede- Keep. As above.
Olan Durai- Keep. Olan's badness just makes me smile.
Rofel Wodring- Boot
Zalbag Beoulve- Boot
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Bartre- Boot
Canas- Keep. It's a pity he sucks, but he's actually the only dark mage in the SERIES we ranked. Soo.
Dorcas- Boot
Erk- Keep. Is VSM.
Fiora- Keep. Peg knights are the awesomeness.
Hawkeye- Boot
Heath- Boot
Isadora- Boot
Legault- Boot
Louise- Keep. Feels wrong to not have Louise with pent.
Lowen- Boot
Nino- Boot
Priscilla- Boot
Rath- Boot
Raven- Keep. Raw sexiness.
Rebecca- Boot
Renault- Boot
Vaida- Boot
Wil- Boot
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Artur- Boot
Colm- Keep. He and Neimi are among the best characters in the game.
Cormag- Boot
Duessel- Boot
Forde- Boot
Franz- Boot
Garcia- Boot
Gerik- Boot
Innes- Boot
L'Arachel- Keep. Pretty memorable in her insanity. Also I DID just vote to boot the other valkyrie.
Marisa- Boot
Neimi- Keep. See Colm.
Rennac- Boot
Saleh- Boot
Suikoden II
Amada- Boot
Anita- Boot
Chaco- Boot
Freed Yamamoto- Boot
Gabocha- Boot
Gengen- Boot
Gijimu- Boot Rare case where I feel like the boot is weird. Anyway, I'm into ranking sets together, and while Gijimu isn't bad, I don't think it justifies his compatriots.
Karen- Boot
Kinnison- Boot
Koyu- Boot
Long Chan Chan- Boot
Lo Wen- Boot
Millie- Boot
Mukumuku- Boot;_;
Rikimaru- Boot
Shin- Boot
Shirou- Keep. Yeah, wolf eat early game.
Sid- Boot
Simone Verdricci- Boot
Tsai- Boot
Wakaba- Boot
-
Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits - Keep.
Brigandine - Boot.
Legend of Legaia - Keep.
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom - Abstain.
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen - Keep: Debonair, Endora, Fenril, Fogel. Abstain: Destin, Rashidi, Rauny, Tristan. Boot: Rest.
Phantasy Star - Boot
Tales of Destiny - Keep
Tales of Eternia - Boot
Vandal-Hearts - Keep: Ash. Boot: Rest.
Chrono Cross - Keep: Draggy, Miki, Orlha, Skelly, Steena, Nikki, Glenn. Boot: rest.
Final Fantasy Tactics - Boot: Olan, Zalbag. Keep: Rest.
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword - Keep: Canas, Erk, Fiora, Louise, Raven. Boot: Rest.
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones - Keep: Artur, Colm, Gerik, Innes, L'Arachel, Neimi. Boot: Rest.
Suikoden II - Keep: Freed, Gijimu, Shirou...Long Chan Chan & Wakaba(what, I like them~). Boot: Rest.
-
Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits - Abstain
Brigandine - Keep. At most I could be convinced on booting Cador but eh.
Legend of Legaia - Keep
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom - Keep
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen - Abstain
Phantasy Star - Abstain
Tales of Destiny - Keep
Tales of Eternia - Abstain
Vandal-Hearts - Boot all but Ash.
Chrono Cross
Doc - Keep
Draggy - Boot
Funguy - Boot
Irenes - K...eep?
Janice - BOOT
Korcha - Keep
Leah - Boot
Luccia - Boot
Macha - Keep
Mel - B...oot?
Miki - K...eep?
Mojo - Boot
Nio-Fio - Boot
Orcha - Keep
Orlha - Keep
Pip - Boot
Pashul - Keep and it's spelled Poshul <_<
Razzly - Keep
Skelly - Boot
Sneff - B...oot?
Sprigg - Boot
Starky - Keep
Steena - Keep
Turnip - Boot
Van - Boot
Zappa - Boot
Pierre - Keep
Guile - Keep
Nikki - Keep
Glenn - Keep
Final Fantasy Tactics
Alma Beoulve - Keep
Balk Fenzol - Keep
Celia - Boot, whoo Lede with half as much damage
Izlude Tingel - Boot
Lede - Keep
Olan Durai - Boot
Rofel Wodring - Keep
Zalbag Beoulve - Boot
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Bartre - Boot
Canas - Keep
Dorcas - Boot
Erk - Keep
Fiora - Keep
Hawkeye - Keep
Heath - Boot
Isadora - Boot
Legault - Boot
Louise - Boot
Lowen - Boot
Nino - Boot
Priscilla - Keep
Rath - Keep
Raven - Keep
Rebecca - Keep
Renault - Keep
Vaida - Boot
Wil - Boot
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Artur - Keep
Colm - Keep
Cormag - Boot
Duessel - Boot
Forde - Boot
Franz - Keep
Garcia - Keep
Gerik - Keep
Innes - Keep
L'Arachel - Keep
Marisa - Boot
Neimi - Keep
Rennac - Keep
Saleh - Boot
Suikoden II
Amada - Boot
Anita - Boot
Chaco - Boot
Freed Yamamoto - Keep
Gabocha - Boot
Gengen - Boot
Gijimu - Keep
Karen - Boot
Kinnison - Boot
Koyu - Boot
Long Chan Chan - Boot
Lo Wen - Boot
Millie - Boot
Mukumuku - Keep
Rikimaru - Boot
Shin - Boot
Shirou - Keep
Sid - Boot
Simone Verdricci - Boot
Tsai - Boot
Wakaba - Boot
-
Having been notified that there was a port of OB on the PSX I have toggled my vote for it to Keep, and also my vote for PS1 to Keep as this reminded me that there was a port of it on the GBA.
-
Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits - Keep it
Brigandine - Keep.
Legend of Legaia - Keep
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom - Keep
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen - Keep
Phantasy Star - Keep, this just had a remake like last damned year. That makes it one of the more modern ranks we have
Tales of Destiny - Keep
Tales of Eternia - Keep
Vandal-Hearts - Keep.
Keep CC
Keep all FFT. Seriously? You are even discussing booting something from FFT? Pretty much the most universally praised and one of the more highly replayed game in the DL? You what?
Keep all FE7 and FE8. You bitches made your beds on this one, you can lie in it (also no realy need to remove them).
Keep Suikoden 2
-
2003. Never left japan. Doesn't count.
-
Alright then, it was rereleased on many systems 2 years ago http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps3/954265-sonics-ultimate-genesis-collection/data
Still making it one of the more modern ranks we have.
Edit - Also noting that these packs are progressively being ported to PC as well. They aren't there yet for PS though. Things like Shining Force 1 and 2 just recently hit Steam though.
-
I'm aware. I have that collection. it's also on the virtual console. Doesn't resolve the issue of being a bad game nobody would willingly play now, although it's probably worth mentioning for Twil at least.
Actually, I'm not sure why you're using PS1 as your cutoff Twil? My knowledge of PSN isn't up to date since I can't access it, but not all those games are on it (LoL, ToD, ToE, and Brig I very much doubt are available, althogh I think Vandal-Hearts might be. Someone who can check may feel free to correct me), and consequently they are considerably harder to get hold of than the older games, which are all on the VC. As noted, Phantasy Star is additionally part of several Sega compilations, including the aforementioned Ultimate Genesis.
-
Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits: Boot. There's no reason this game should exist anymore. We let it stay alive barely this long, it hasn't gotten better etc.
Brigandine: Keep. It has some write up history in the DL and stands as that "bar" which shows "if you're below this, you suck." yeah, bad objective reasoning, but that's what I feel.
Legend of Legaia: Keep. I want to boot this game, but don't think I can find a realistic argument without being hypocritical.
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom: Keep. Game isn't quite as bad, on vote draw, as you'd expect I wanna say, and its a small rank anyway.
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen: Boot anyone with a generic Class, keep the unique characters (so the Dragoons, Tristan, Destin, and Debonair.) Boot Endora, keep Gares and Rashidi.
Phantasy Star: Keep. Don't really have an argument for this one, and things like Odin's LEGENDARY HERO STATUS OF MOCKERY is something I feel that's DL history that needs to be kept.
Tales of Destiny: Abstain. Borderline thing hurts brain or something.
Tales of Eternia: Boot. This, meanwhile, has been a consistent failure in the DL.
Vandal-Hearts: Boot, outside of Ash, who I will Abstain on. Boring cast, and all that, Ash aside.
Chrono Cross
Doc: Boot. Split path PC who isn't very popular.
Draggy: Abstain. I like him shut up, and having Game best speed counts for something.
Funguy: Boot. epitome of a random CC character who serves no purpose whatsoever.
Irenes: Keep. I thought she was required, and I remember her well enough.
Janice: Boot One of the more obscure, easy to miss PCs in the game who you're likely never to use.
Korcha: Boot See Doc really.
Leah: Keep. Believe she's a required recruit, which counts for something, and having game best physical stats in a game like this has to mean SOMETHING.
Luccia: Boot. ...yeah, just another "kind of there, who gives a shit" PC.
Macha: Boot]. See Korcha
Mel: Boot Hey look, the entire family deserves a booting, yay!
Miki: Boot. Optional and probably not used by many people.
Mojo: Abstain. Easy to get early game and memorable design and all that...but I'm not sure that's enough of an argument.
Nio-Fio: Boot. Oh look, easy to miss PC no one is going to use, yay!
Orcha: Boot. Another random PC.
Orlha: Boot. She's like Leah except optional which makes the difference.
Pip: Boot Yeah, the Interp issues, we'll go with that.
Poshul: Keep Under the impression most get her cause of how she's the first recruit in the game, and is even required on some pathes. That's enough for me.
Razzly: Abstain. I can't justify keeping her, but part of me feels just wrong booting her.
Skelly: Boot. Not easy to get PC who joins late and it seems a lot of people don't use him.
Sneff: Keep. yeah, his fail is legendary enough to keep or something!
Sprigg: Boot. Required, but she's basically Gau without any of what Gau fun and...uh, yeah, screw her.
Starky: Keep. Required PC, and he's a cute little alien!
Steena: Boot Required but unmemorable, whoo?
Turnip: Boot. The epitome of exactly what should NOT be ranked from this game.
Van: Boot. Yeah, not gonna bother explaining this one cause I can't, just kneejerk.
Zappa: Keep. The fact that he's required for Rainbow Gear makes me think he should be kept on principle.
Pierre: Keep. He's amusing enough fail to keep.
Guile: Boot. Not amusnig enough to offset the split pathness.
Nikki: Boot. See Guile.
Glenn: Keep. One of the few remotely stand out PCs in the game, and some go out of their way to insure they recruit him despite split pathness.
Final Fantasy Tactics
Alma Beoulve: Boot. I have nothing against her, but the arguments we save by getting rid of her are probably worth it.
Balk Fenzol: Boot. Near plotless boss in that he's only relevant for the two fights you face him; he's exactly what should NOT be ranked and only was cause carry over + FFT = Free Pass.
Celia: Boot. I feel with the Assassins, its boot both or keep both...and while interesting duelers, don't think they have the plot to justify staying.
Izlude Tingel: Boot. Not a very interesting dueler, and plot relevance is kind of shakey...yeah.
Lede: Boot. See Celia.
Olan Durai: Boot. ONe shot Guest who doesn't translate into the DL...yeah no.
Rofel Wodring: Keep. You fight him multiple times, and he's memorable enough as a personalitiless henchman of Vormav.
Zalbag Beoulve: Boot. Yeah, see Olan.
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Bartre: Keep. I feel we only need one Warrior, and the fact that Bartre ends up remotely decent and is in FE6 makes me favor him! He also is better write up bait.
Canas: Keep. HOLY CRAP A UNIQUE DUELER IN FE7!
Dorcas: Boot. Explained in Bartre, more or less.
Erk: Boot. I know people like him, but he's redundant with Pent, and Pent has actual plot relevance and generally the better character.
Fiora: Boot. Don't feel any reason to have her ranked with Florina around, as its redundant.
Hawkeye: Keep. Feels wrong to boot him, can't explain why.
Heath: Keep. One Wyvern should be in the game, lets go with the one gotten early and does NOT have a super plot form bullshit.
Isadora: Boot. We don't need anymore Scrub Paladins.
Legault: Boot. Yeah, with Matthew, he's really not needed for the DL.
Louise: Keep. Feels wrong to get rid of her but not Pent; she's even got a semblance of plot!
Lowen: Boot. Not as scrubby as ISadora, but the point stands.
Nino: Boot. PLOT RELEVANCE...but her own syndrome more than overrides that.
Priscilla: Keep. She's got a unique class among the PCs, that's gotta be worth SOMETHING.
Rath: Keep. See Priscilla.
Raven: Keep. One of the best and most used PCs in the game, getting rid of him feels wrong.
Rebecca: Abstain. Not sure how I feel on this one.
Renault": Boot. Late game useless combat PC whose mostly a running joke whose plot relevance is 100% from SUPPORTS YOU WON'T SEE IN GAME! ...fuck that shit.
Vaida: Boot. Late game PC most probably don't use with a bullshit plot form.
Wil: Boot Generic archer who is forgettable the instant Rebecca joins, whoo!
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Artur: Keep Kneejerk.
Colm: Keep. Ranks high up there for "Most used PCs in FE8" I'm sure.
Cormag: Keep A mild sense of plot and a potentially unique class counts for something, maybe?
Duessel: Boot. Worthless Fire Emblem Scrub.
Forde: Boot. Generic forgettable Cavalier.
Franz: Keep. People actually use him unlike the other Cavs.
Garcia: Boot. Him being in but Ross not always struck me as WEIRD.
Gerik: Keep. Another "Used by most players" character.
Innes: Keep Actual plot relevance!
L'Arachel: Keep. Important enough, unique (starting) class, memorable, etc.
Marisa: Boot. Feels wrong, but with Josh ranked, there's really no justification for her.
Neimi: Keep. Yeah, goes with Colm really.
Rennac: Keep. Was gonna boot him til I remembered he's tied to L'Arachel, which...yeah, that's enough.
Saleh: Boot. Oh look, its a pre-promo Sage NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT.
Suikoden II
Amada: Boot. Random Suikoden Fighter = yawn.
Anita: Keep. Falcon Rune is cool.
Chaco: Keep Remote sense of plot, yay!
Freed Yamamoto: Keep. See Chaco.
Gabocha: Boot. WHY IS HE HERE!??!?
Gengen: Boot. People use him after that forced sequence? News to me!
Gijimu: Keep. Actually interesting Suikoden Fighter, that means a lot in a cast like this.
Karen: Boot. I don't even know who she is and I got all 108 stars.
Kinnison: Boot. Though, I support keeping his dog, he himself is worthless.
Koyu: Boot. See Karen, really.
Long Chan Chan: Boot. Filler Suikoden Character and all that.
Lo Wen: Keep. Eh, she has a Water Rune and some plot, I think, so that's worth something.
Millie: Boot. Bonaparte is interesting or something...but not enough.
Mukumuku: Boot. Try as I might to think of a way to defend him...I can't.
Rikimaru: Boot. Yeah, no to generic fighters.
Shin: Keep. Actual plot and he's got a Rune that shows use in the DL; that's worth something.
Shiro: Keep. Should be kept on grounds of being the single best Suikoden Monster PC IN THE ENTIRE SERIES.
Sid: Boot. Unlike Juan, he's forgettable.
Simone Verdricci: Abstain. Suiko Narcissist = Meep has No Clue What to Do.
Tsai: Boot. Who cares/10.
Wakaba: Boot. Pretty definitive of a Suiko-scrub.
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Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits: Boot, game generates more dislike than enthusiasm, sadly.
Brigandine: Keep. Abstain on Cador.
Legend of Legaia: Keep. It's a classic PSX RPG, a small rank, and Songi/Noa are well liked.
Lufia and the Fortress of Doom: Keep? These bastards could use new art though. Pretty sure we can get that because they just rereleased the game...
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen: Basically booting who I don't remember.
Aisha: Boot
Debonair: Keep
Destin Faroda: Keep
Endora: Keep
Fenril: Keep
Fogel: Keep
Gares: Boot
Norn: Boot
Rashidi: Keep
Rauny: Boot
Saradin: Boot
Slust: Keep
Tristan Zenobia: Keep
Yushis: Boot
Phantasy Star: Boot. I never played it and don't intend to. I'm being selfish.
Tales of Destiny: Keep. Abstain on Bruiser the optional "I'm too good!" guy.
Tales of Eternia: Keep Farah, Reid, and Max. Boot Keele and Meredy as I'm still not sure what the hell people do with them...
Vandal-Hearts: Keep the three who are basically leads, boot the rest.
Ash Lambert: Keep
Clint Picard: Boot
Diego Renault: Keep
Eleni Dunbar: Keep
Huxley Hobbs: Boot
Kira Wulfstan: Boot
Sara: Boot
Character Specific Bootings- VITAL NOTE: I opted to be inclusive for these large casts. Please read these lists carefully before voting: it's likely people you want to keep ranked are on the lists.
I'm copying Meep in some regards from here.
Chrono Cross
Doc: Boot. Split path PC who isn't very popular.
Draggy: Keep. I like him shut up, and having Game best speed counts for something.
Funguy: Boot. epitome of a random CC character who serves no purpose whatsoever.
Irenes: Keep. I thought she was required, and I remember her well enough.
Janice: Boot One of the more obscure, easy to miss PCs in the game who you're likely never to use.
Korcha: Boot See Doc really.
Leah: Keep. Ayla redux and required and significant on stats.
Luccia: Boot. ...yeah, just another "kind of there, who gives a shit" PC.
Macha: Boot]. See Korcha
Mel: Boot Hey look, the entire family deserves a booting, yay!
Miki: Boot. Optional and probably not used by many people.
Mojo: Abstain. Easy to get early game and memorable design and all that...but I'm not sure that's enough of an argument.
Nio-Fio: Boot. Oh look, easy to miss PC no one is going to use, yay!
Orcha: Boot. Another random PC.
Orlha: Boot. She's like Leah except optional which makes the difference.
Pip: Boot Yeah, the Interp issues, we'll go with that.
Poshul: Keep Under the impression most get her cause of how she's the first recruit in the game, and is even required on some pathes. That's enough for me.
Razzly: Abstain. I can't justify keeping her, but part of me feels just wrong booting her.
Skelly: Boot. Not easy to get PC who joins late and it seems a lot of people don't use him.
Sneff: Boot. yeah, his fail is legendary enough to keep or something! Except not.
Sprigg: Boot. Required, but she's basically Gau without any of what Gau fun and...uh, yeah, screw her.
Starky: Keep. Required PC, and he's a cute little alien!
Steena: Boot Required but unmemorable, whoo?
Turnip: Boot. The epitome of exactly what should NOT be ranked from this game.
Van: Boot. Yeah, not gonna bother explaining this one cause I can't, just kneejerk.
Zappa: Keep. The fact that he's required for Rainbow Gear makes me think he should be kept on principle.
Pierre: Keep. He's amusing enough fail to keep.
Guile: Boot. Not amusnig enough to offset the split pathness.
Nikki: Boot. See Guile.
Glenn: Keep. One of the few remotely stand out PCs in the game, and some go out of their way to insure they recruit him despite split pathness.
Final Fantasy Tactics
Alma Beoulve: Boot. I have nothing against her, but the arguments we save by getting rid of her are probably worth it.
Balk Fenzol: Boot. Near plotless boss in that he's only relevant for the two fights you face him; he's exactly what should NOT be ranked and only was cause carry over + FFT = Free Pass.
Celia: Boot.
Izlude Tingel: Boot. Not a very interesting dueler, and plot relevance is kind of shakey...yeah.
Lede: Keep. She's the better Assasin may as well let her stick around.
Olan Durai: Boot. ONe shot Guest who doesn't translate into the DL...yeah no.
Rofel Wodring: Keep. You fight him multiple times, and he's memorable enough as a personalitiless henchman of Vormav.
Zalbag Beoulve: Boot. Yeah, see Olan.
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Bartre: Boot. Rather boring.
Canas: Keep. HOLY CRAP A UNIQUE DUELER IN FE7!
Dorcas: Boot. Explained in Bartre, more or less.
Erk: Keep. Erk is a fairly well-liked guy (/fanboyism)
Fiora: Boot. Don't feel any reason to have her ranked with Florina around, as its redundant.
Hawkeye: Boot. Just some random guy no one cares about.
Heath: Boot. Nobody cares about Heath.
Isadora: Boot. We don't need anymore Scrub Paladins.
Legault: Boot. Yeah, with Matthew, he's really not needed for the DL.
Louise: Keep. Feels wrong to get rid of her but not Pent; she's even got a semblance of plot!
Lowen: Boot. Not as scrubby as ISadora, but the point stands.
Nino: Boot. PLOT RELEVANCE...but her own syndrome more than overrides that.
Priscilla: Keep. She's got a unique class among the PCs, that's gotta be worth SOMETHING.
Rath: Keep. See Priscilla.
Raven: Keep. One of the best and most used PCs in the game, getting rid of him feels wrong.
Rebecca: Keep. This is just personal preference.
Renault": Boot. Late game useless combat PC whose mostly a running joke whose plot relevance is 100% from SUPPORTS YOU WON'T SEE IN GAME! ...fuck that shit.
Vaida: Boot. Late game PC most probably don't use with a bullshit plot form.
Wil: Boot Generic archer who is forgettable the instant Rebecca joins, whoo!
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Artur: Keep Kneejerk.
Colm: Keep. Ranks high up there for "Most used PCs in FE8" I'm sure.
Cormag: Keep A mild sense of plot and a potentially unique class counts for something, maybe?
Duessel: Boot. Worthless Fire Emblem Scrub.
Forde: Boot. Generic forgettable Cavalier.
Franz: Keep. People actually use him unlike the other Cavs.
Garcia: Boot. Him being in but Ross not always struck me as WEIRD.
Gerik: Keep. Another "Used by most players" character.
Innes: Keep Actual plot relevance!
L'Arachel: Keep. Important enough, unique (starting) class, memorable, etc.
Marisa: Keep. She's pretty significant for DL history and is prettier than Josh.
Neimi: Keep. Yeah, goes with Colm really.
Rennac: Keep. Was gonna boot him til I remembered he's tied to L'Arachel, which...yeah, that's enough.
Saleh: Boot. Oh look, its a pre-promo Sage NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT.
Suikoden II
Amada: Boot. Random Suikoden Fighter = yawn.
Anita: Keep. Falcon Rune is cool.
Chaco: Keep Remote sense of plot, yay!
Freed Yamamoto: Keep. See Chaco.
Gabocha: Boot. WHY IS HE HERE!??!?
Gengen: Boot. People use him after that forced sequence? News to me!
Gijimu: Keep. Actually interesting Suikoden Fighter, that means a lot in a cast like this.
Karen: Boot. I don't even know who she is and I got all 108 stars.
Kinnison: Boot. Though, I support keeping his dog, he himself is worthless.
Koyu: Boot. See Karen, really.
Long Chan Chan: Boot. Filler Suikoden Character and all that.
Lo Wen: Keep. Eh, she has a Water Rune and some plot, I think, so that's worth something.
Millie: Keep. Bonaparte is interesting.
Mukumuku: Boot. Try as I might to think of a way to defend him...I can't.
Rikimaru: Boot. Yeah, no to generic fighters.
Shin: Keep. Actual plot and he's got a Rune that shows use in the DL; that's worth something.
Shiro: Keep. Should be kept on grounds of being the single best Suikoden Monster PC IN THE ENTIRE SERIES.
Sid: Boot. Unlike Juan, he's forgettable.
Simone Verdricci: Abstain. Suiko Narcissist = Meep has No Clue What to Do And Pyro Just Doesn't Give a Damn.
Tsai: Boot. Who cares/10.
Wakaba: Keep. Cute!
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I am now switching all my CC, FE, and S2 abstentions to boots, to offset the keep-all votes there. I can understand the mentality of keeping things like ToE ranked, for all that I don't agree with it. But saying the DL will suffer if we boot a Suikoden or CC character that hardly anyone cares about and just makes seasons less fun when they are inevitably nommed with the reasoning of "hey this guy's been out since season 20"? C'mon. No, the DL does not need Gabocha vs. Sid.
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People like random characters for random reasons. Leaving the keep alls aside, there are plenty of individual votes that keep one random scrub and not the other, for lots of different reasons, chief among them people actually liking the characters. That, to me, has always been one of the DL's main strengths and I enjoy seeing different faces, though I'll admit for people who are around a while it could get old.
I don't think blaming the way people nom things helps either. It does contribute to what you might think is a problem, but... people enjoy the DL in different ways. I'll grant that people would probably just nom other things that are not booted that haven't been in for a while, but I don't think it's really necessary to make that happen.
Plus, we'll still have scrubs. It'll just now be the same scrubs more often.
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there are plenty of individual votes that keep one random scrub and not the other, for lots of different reasons, chief among them people actually liking the characters.
And these votes are wonderful and to be encouraged. I mean, I randomly like Skelly, and I'm happy to see that my vote (plus anyone I may have influenced) is keeping him away from the boot line. This is cool; this is what this process is supposed to do. Duellers with fans don't go because... it fundamentally takes very little effort to keep them in.
A large number of keep-all votes will simply mean that nothing gets booted, so we don't get to weed out these duellers who lack fans.
Having less scrubs (defined as a dueller who nobody cares about, for this paragraph) around does mean scrubs get in less often. This is pretty much statistical fact; if we get rid of 50 duellers who haven't been in for 20 seasons, then the "nom duellers who haven't been in for 20 seasons" nods will have a higher probability of going towards duellers who are cared about. Pretty simple, really.
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it's also on the virtual console. Doesn't resolve the issue of being a bad game nobody would willingly play now, although it's probably worth mentioning for Twil at least.
I don't count Virtual Console as I believe (without any evidence one way of the other...) that the majority of the use it gets is people buying games they've already played. Cannot really speak for PSN/anything else.
Actually, I'm not sure why you're using PS1 as your cutoff Twil?
Because that was what I decided would be the cutoff aways back. You would really have to ask past!me what my reasonings were at this point. I can say that there has been plenty remade/ported from SNES/earlier but not so much from PS1/later, and on the one hand in theory the games which have been ported/remade are presumably worth keeping (yet considering this includes PS1 and OB...) and on the other hand shifting the cutoff past PS1 means voting for FF7 and so on to be bulk booted (of course this would require that they ever came up for bulk booting in the first place).
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Say what you will about the quality of PS1 or the usability of VC or PSN, the fact is that this is a game that people can go pick up for like $5 in cash money, compared to like what most of our PS2 catalogue which is reliant on the whims of the second hand market. What is easier for someone to go pick up, PS1 or Digital Devil Saga?
The keep alls are there for a reason, a huge portion of this list may be statistically sound to axe, but you are talking about off handedly axing characters that have been in the league for 63 seasons. Why are we axing them now? I agree a clean up is probably a good idea, but some random season number is a bad time to be doing this. Ideally I would be saying leave this pile as it is and just hit the giant reset button in 7 or 12 seasons time, but I question the ability for us to retain what votership we have left with a total roster reset.
Cleaning out the roster is good, but there is a time and place for it and it could sure as shit do with a little more forethought than we have here. Not hating on CK here, he has done a good job with the list here, but anything that has FFT on the list there in the DL is a bit of a stretch in my not even remotely humble opinion.
You can argue that the fans should be speaking up to keep these characters. The fans already did speak up though, when we were ranking. You remember we ranked these things for a reason yeah? Lets take an example that I am going to not be called out for bias with, Bartre. We are talking about booting Bartre because he is boring, where he is one of the plot PCs from the character arc that gives characters the most development in FE7 where they won't permadie so can have more dialogue. He was ranked for a reason. People liked Bartre. He has more plot than Dorcas. He is slightly inferior or something, but people liked him and got him in. You remember how much work we put into ranking FE7 and 8? We combed over and argued that shit out like 2 or 3 times each.
People also don't get involved in booting. People don't like it, it involves way more politicking than ranking does. More casual fans are inclined to pop in and do stuff with ranking because you know it is partly more fun at least in preliminary stages. Importantly we announce ranking to the wider audience. We are not here. This is the people actively involved in the regular day to day politicks of the DL passing sweeping judgement on our entire roster.
What we are doing here isn't booting or pruning a roster, it is straight up taking a meat cleaver to it, ripping out seasons worth of ranking and argument and discussion and more casual fan feedback. I agree that yeah if people actually want to sit down and plan this out (which again as a majour proponent for booting was something I always insisted was done) instead of just doing it because hey we always used to do it and we stopped, why did we stop that again? Okay dudes get your boot on okgo.
Your statistical argument is a good argument Elf, it is certainly a good reason in favour of getting a bit of a clean up here, but as much as we will argue and math out matches and as much as we are not having as strong a focus on it with writer fatigue and shifting to more generic writeups, there is still more to the DL that just raw math mashing together. If that is all there was to the site then List tournament would be king.
Time and a place and more importantly a way to do things and here we are certainly not doing the characters or the outer circle of fans proper justice. Pick a momentus occasion to do it and plan it more carefully and let people know about it.
Edit - Some formatting fixes to differentiate two different arguments.
Edit 2 - So yeah I mixed up Dorcas and Bartre, shows what the fuck I know about FE as well. Point still stands. People ranked him for more reasons than because he was there and they loved FE7 so much that they wanted 8 carbon copies of shit ranked. Edit 3 - I know this because that was the reason I gave to not rank these shits in the first place.
Edit 4 - Wallowing in my own bullshit here. Missed the forest for the trees.
Seriously, you guys are looking at booting main bosses from FFT? What the fucking fuck. Half these things are carry overs from BCB. We have more than 63 seasons worth of history there. If people haven't got their granny panties out of a knot and worked out how they interpret Blood Suck and Alma I don't even know what the hell is going on. The big times we booted stuff for interpretation headaches was for massive tier shifts and straight up confusing and unrepresentative mechanics. You know, pretty much it was Necron and like just Necron. It got brought up a few other times (Lezard), but never stuck because it was tenuous at best. Blood suck does not even come close to a boss getting a quarter speed and losing half its skillset. YOU ARE TALKINGA BOUT BOOTING BALK. A RECURRING BOSS. IN FFT. THE REASON HALF YOU GUYS KNOW EACH OTHER. You know probably the most successful component we have had in the sight for ages with LFT. What the fucking fuck is going on here. This shit is insane. Meat cleaver is barely even touching on what this is. It is arbitrary booting for the sake of booting almost. Holy fuck.
You know how many games we booted on average most times before? Like stuff from 4 or 5 damned games. We are doing almost three times that. Gods fucking dammit are you trying to make up for lost time? By booting DL staples here? Lets boot Palmer cause no one likes Palmer guys. He is worthless and a scrub and doesn't have any interesting matches.
This disgusts me. It was even worse than I first thought the more I read it the less faith I have in this process.
Edit 5 - Note where I say you guys are seriously booting FFT bosses, I noted that you know they were on the list. I didn't seriously think people would be voting for them. I skipped past FFT, because haha, the DL wouldn't boot prominent plot characters from FFT. That would be crazy.
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I may as well chime in and note that this is about how I feel about it except it doesn't piss me off.
I mean I still like the DL? But getting excited over it is pretty beyond me these days. I think it's because of how bad of writing burnout I hit more than anything, if I had to guess.
But yeah trimming down one or two heavily debated characters like Alma? Okay, sure. Few FE characters to make room for new ones? Sure, we have 75 FE characters, might be a bit much to add another cast, even fairly lightly, to that without any removal. Largest boot in ages now? Feels...pretty silly on a lot of levels.
I mean, my impression was that CK basically just tossed in every idea he heard that remotely got support. Granted, this....probably should have been a two tier topic for that reason. But, anyways, the point was that the topic didn't have this many ideas in because they were loudly touted as things needing booting so much as things that had been mentioned at like any point.
That people are taking the list generally this seriously and pretty much...yeah, meat clevering a decent chunk of it? I dunno about the lack of warning feelings per se, but it feels silly, a pointless slashing taken to a roster that like 35-40 voters are voting on and most of which know a majority of.
I mean I guess I'm fine with whatever but it just kinda boggles my mind is all.
When the hell'd I get to be the one that nos an entire set of games up for boot, anyways? And why does no one seem to think that should send some warning signals up? I'm just sayin'.
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Balk, Celia, and Lede aren't exactly 'prominent plot characters'. Celia is an inferior copy of Lede and to be honest I think having one PC-killer is enough for their plot-'value'. Alma has been a mess for a long time, although I don't know much about her 'history' here or how many people actually care about her.
As far as trimming Suikodens and everything else, I tend to vote for stuff that I personally don't care about and I tend to think other people won't care about. If someone makes a serious appeal for a character they like I'll be more than happy to change to a "Keep".
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I realized, belatedly, this might sound sarcastic. I'm 100% serious.
If we're going to boot games/large swathes of a cast, I think we should do it with more style, at least. This entire bootings procedure is boring and only stirs up rage and bile. There is something slightly inevitable, it seems, about this mess. We should have it be fun. Have it be dramatic. Have a little... style.
##Vote: Deathmatch
Let's do it. Season of elimination. Bring all the bad ranked games in, only one can survive!
Suiko/Fire Emblem brawl! Cut them down one by one until only champions remain! Put them against the most interesting members of their cast! Have it be a beauty contest! A pageant!
Teams of SuikoScrubs vs Godlikes. Do it.
~~~
Until this idea gains some foothold, I'm going to have to vote the other way, I suppose, though. I'll update some of these thoughts when I have better thoughts.
Keep FFT
Abstain Others
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Balk, Celia, and Lede aren't exactly 'prominent plot characters'. Celia is an inferior copy of Lede and to be honest I think having one PC-killer is enough for their plot-'value'. Alma has been a mess for a long time, although I don't know much about her 'history' here or how many people actually care about her.
Balk is a member of the villains who is a noteworthy boss fight two times, he has lines in a few cutscenes. He does more than Kletian. The villain cast in FFT is big and Balk actually is fairly unique for them in that he is a relatively competent tank.
The history they have? They were in the DL for 63 seasons. They were carry overs from the RPGP and its 23 seasons, believe one of them had some good runs in heavy back in those RPGP days. In game they are memorable repeating bosses that always appear together. You pick one to rank and it is an arbitrary decision. So you pick the strongest of the two? What makes that more optimal a rank specifically? For the record, checking their win/losses, Lede has a huge victory margin that is way bigger than the difference between the two of them statistically, Celia having fought two borderline godlike characters with OHKO damage and status protection. Lede on the other hand has managed to upgrade and be downgraded again. If that isn't history being made for the two characters in the DL then I don't know what you are after exactly. Things have happened in the DL and they are represented far more deeply than just comparing stat averages to see who wins in a given week.
Also just to reiterate, there is ways to do this and this is not the way to make sure the message does not get bogged down in minutiae of what is or is not good or bad for a specific character.
Edit - Also for reference here is what we have under discussion here, the first post list 148 characters being discussed for booting here. We have 1111 characters in the RPGDL records. Decimating the roster is not the textbook way to generate interest in a website. Unless you are going to rank that many or more characters this is the path to absolute stagnation. Edit 2 - That 148 figure is 5 more characters than we have in the entirety of Godlike. You know again, for a sense of scale here.
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Grefter: I agree that the attempts to trim FFT were poorly thought-out, but you know what? The voters have reacted accordingly. To spoil the booting results for that game, the closest character to being booted from FFT is Zalbag, and he'd need (and I shit you not, here), 13 unanswered boot votes to get kicked out at this point. Nobody from FFT is going to go. And I'd tend to agree with you that most likely, nobody should. I personally dislike Zalbag because I feel there's just no consistency in terms of how he's voted on because both his forms are screwy (PC! PC with equip changing! Boss! Boss with Blood Suck! etc.) That said I have zero problem whatsoever with being in a minority over this one - other people think that's not a problem? Good for them. And I personally think the fact that the assassins, Izlude, and Rofel are even up for booting is just ludicrous. Never mind that a couple of them are champs, never mind all of Izlude and Rofel's character fans, never mind that Assassin was one of the most revered/discussed classes on the FFT board and their fighting style is memorable as hell, never mind that Rofel is probably the most interesting/versatile boss dueller and that THIS GAME IS THE MOST-PLAYED/WELL-LIKED GAME IN THE DL. In other words I actually pretty much agree with you on this, it just doesn't cause me to rage, just shake my head and snigger as I count up the votes.
I agree that we probably should have had a preliminary topic for this. It's very clear that only a relatively small number of people are considered realistic boots by much of the DL. Mostly some CC/FE/S2 that people really don't care about much. The complete failure of games like FFT, Lufia, ToD, and Legaia 1 to attract anywhere near a majority (let alone 66%) is evidence of this. Quite frankly this has wasted a lot of my/Super's time counting up people who have never had a chance, so next time we do this I will insist on a preliminary topic.
We are talking about booting Bartre because he is boring, where he is one of the plot PCs from the character arc that gives characters the most development in FE7 where they won't permadie so can have more dialogue. He was ranked for a reason. People liked Bartre. He has more plot than Dorcas.
I think you're mixing Bartre and Dorcas up here. <_< Doesn't matter, just a nitpick.
Anyway, just to be clear on FE7, we literally decided to rank -everything- from the game, PC-wise, that wasn't splitpath. This was standard at the time. Times have changed, we'd never rank new games like that, and ranking two (in a few more days, three) other FE games has led to a very large representation of that series (many who are not myself think it is too large). It makes perfectly good sense to trim some characters who would not have been ranked with modern sensibilities, if they (a) don't have significant DL history, and (b) don't have fans to protect them from this booting. Again, I can't stress enough how good a wall that 66% threshold is; you don't go if any significant number of people want you to stay.
I mean, there's literally not a character who couldn't be saved from booting with a rant of "I LIKE THIS PERSON, PLEASE DO NOT BOOT HIM OR HER OR IT WILL MAKE ME LIKE THE DL LESS". A couple switched boot->keep votes and suddenly that 13-4 score which looks like a sure boot is now 11-6, which is a narrow keep. (And for the record, nothing actually manages as good a percentage as 13-4.) Anything that does go, with the system we use, will not be missed.
Also for what it's worth this will be nowhere near our biggest booting effort ever. Pretty sure that's whatever season we trimmed the Shining Force games down to ~10 duellers each.
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I mean, there's literally not a character who couldn't be saved from booting with a rant of "I LIKE THIS PERSON, PLEASE DO NOT BOOT HIM OR HER OR IT WILL MAKE ME LIKE THE DL LESS". A couple switched boot->keep votes and suddenly that 13-4 score which looks like a sure boot is now 11-6, which is a narrow keep. (And for the record, nothing actually manages as good a percentage as 13-4.) Anything that does go, with the system we use, will not be missed.
Again, this isn't the way to do that. Going to people "Here is a list of greater than 10% of the DL, pick which of these characters you want to keep" isn't exactly going to get everyone's attention it glazes the eyes over (See me brushing off FFT at first), the list is way way to big to get support or a campaign for a single person going. It is way to much in way to short a time frame with absolutely NO fanfare outside of this topic. This is something that needs to be put out there so said niche fans can come in here and scroll through our lists of 148 characters to pick out the 2 or 3 they want to keep and hope that everyone else reads their post between our arguments and other people's huge lists of boot or keep.
So yeah good luck on that campaign to save Skelly in the face of that, especially if other people switch over to Boot fucking everything to counteract people that like the DL roster as is.
Even if this isn't the biggest retirement effort (I still raise an eyebrow at SF1 and 2 being greater than 10% of our roster given that they still have 10 and 13 duellists in respectively), it is the least focused and by far the most unmanageable for people. This is again noting that this is entirely without any fanfare. It is just thrown up in our administration pages and we render judgement upon it because we happen to be the people that are around. The scope of previous retirement is entirely irrelevant to the argument here though. We are discussing what we are doing now and what we are doing is attrocious.
Also yeah I realised the confusion with Bartre and Dorcas 5 minutes after posting it, it is referenced in an edit amongst that jumble.
Man I lost sleep over this because of how badly this is done, this is terrible and not how you run the site. You can even see the point in that ramble where I started to read specific votes more specifically and just plain flipped my shit.
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Definitely agree the format of this was horrible. One person grabs a list, asks chat late at night to put in other suggestions and then posts it in a couple of hours and doesn't let anyone who wasn't in chat in that timeframe add/argue about it? Yeah, was poorly done. This is really something that needed a preliminary topic to find out who people want to boot before even getting to the voting phase.
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Note on the timing: Seriously, the DL needs change in general if it's going to survive at this point. Something drastic like this is perfect for the tournament. Honestly, I'd prefer if we just switched our focus to user-created content like LFT/Reviews, but we don't have a lot of options until Hal has the free time to make such sweeping changes to the site. We discussed making all of those changes about 3? 4? seasons ago?
The DL is doing what it can, and Grefter, you don't even participate in the tournament, maybe something drastic like this which pulled you out of hiding is exactly what we needed.
A preliminary topic would have just died before it moved anywhere. People get apathetic and forget about things. Stagnation is how we've ended up where we are now.
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I agree that we probably should have had a preliminary topic for this. It's very clear that only a relatively small number of people are considered realistic boots by much of the DL. Mostly some CC/FE/S2 that people really don't care about much. The complete failure of games like FFT, Lufia, ToD, and Legaia 1 to attract anywhere near a majority (let alone 66%) is evidence of this. Quite frankly this has wasted a lot of my/Super's time counting up people who have never had a chance, so next time we do this I will insist on a preliminary topic.
Yep. Not much to add to this, except that the format didn't work. I'm not happy with what a pain in the ass this has been to count up, and I'm not happy with the execution. If you want to shift your roster around and change the focus of the DL? Fantastic, I've argued it before. That said, the interest isn't there for it and neither is the level of fan support/interest to make it worth the time and headache.
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A preliminary topic would have just died before it moved anywhere. People get apathetic and forget about things. Stagnation is how we've ended up where we are now.
If people are apathetic about booting then we don't need to boot people.
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The DL is doing what it can, and Grefter, you don't even participate in the tournament, maybe something drastic like this which pulled you out of hiding is exactly what we needed.
Failing horribly at PR, politics and general administration of a sight isn't a great way to get me interested in voting again. I have not been active in the tournament itself for a long while. I haven't written in a bit less time than that. I can tell you where I keep coming back though, is the politics.
I may not care for the format of the tournament itself anymore as I have less time on my hands working and with the time zone shift (hey I can't stay up until 3 in the morning like I did when I voted), but I can still tell you how you should do basic administration and public relations.
Protip: If you want to get people interested back in the DL, booting a huge chunk of shit they ranked or just straight up making the roster smaller when they check back is not going to help them "Oh wow this tournament only got smaller while I wasn't looking :D" isn't going to be the response you get. You boot things to keep a flow of characters, you need them incoming in the same quantities to fight stagnation, not just dumping shit all over the place.
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Noting that I changed my vote on bulk booting Lufia 1 to Keep as my system depends on games having been selected for bulk booting responsibly, which seems to be diverging from reality as the topic goes on.
If attracting new people is at all a priority, there may well be too much ranked in the DL currently, especially since the tournament pretty much only exists for the tournament's sake now - is there any point in following it without knowing most of the characters any more?
If you only want to stop people leaving/try and rehook people who left before, then having a net increase in the amount of ranked people is an option, sure.
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Note on the timing: Seriously, the DL needs change in general if it's going to survive at this point. Something drastic like this is perfect for the tournament. Honestly, I'd prefer if we just switched our focus to user-created content like LFT/Reviews, but we don't have a lot of options until Hal has the free time to make such sweeping changes to the site. We discussed making all of those changes about 3? 4? seasons ago?
The DL is doing what it can, and Grefter, you don't even participate in the tournament, maybe something drastic like this which pulled you out of hiding is exactly what we needed.
A preliminary topic would have just died before it moved anywhere. People get apathetic and forget about things. Stagnation is how we've ended up where we are now.
Grefter has always participated in the DL politick. He stopped voting yes, but he's always chimed in on rankings, bootings and other DL administrative things.
Yes, the DL needs change, but this is honestly change for change's sake and not a healthy direction for the DL. People are not not obligated to boot anything. I'm sad to see an argument I regret making in the past coming back to haunt me. I used to use the "Obscurity doesn't matter because the DL has become pretty much the core group." argument against booting. It took me time but I realized that doing things with just the core group in mind is NOT the way to save the site.
We're becoming stagnant because we have a lack of new blood to the site as a whole. Would the other changes proposed to the DL help with that? Yes. But I'm not liking the attitude shift here in that we should just start doing things that appeal to the core group only (or that what the core group likes is obviously what everyone else likes), and this topic seriously worries me to that end.
Stagnation isn't a result of a failure to rank and boot. It's a failure of attracting people to the site, and a failure of remaining consistant. One might argue that ranking and booting have a big role in that, but I've never really been sold on it. The biggest problem is that we really don't even TRY to bring or keep people in anymore. We're honestly shocked when LFT brings in one or two more people... seriously, aim higher, guys.
The biggest thing of all that hurt us is that massive amounts of downtime we had in the end of '09. Off three weeks, which was no one's fault, then back for a couple, then we for some reason decide we need two more weeks off to retool the site? And people are wondering where everyone went? Timing has never been the DL's strong suit. I'm a lot to blame for it, but the weeks of downtime in between the past couple seasons hasn't helped either. We have more important goals at the moment in terms of restructuring the site, but we choose to waste time and effort on BOOTING?
Ranking and booting honestly has the opposite effect than what you said, Djinn. I mentioned it before, Gref has always been a vocal person in DL matters even if he doesn't vote. Booting isn't going to make people who aren't voting suddenly vote. It never makes anyone happy, and the claim that it helps the DL honestly has always been dubious at best, especially in recent years.
To touch on a point that NEB replied to me about before: People are voting to keep whatever they like, which is fine, but I'm being arbitrary and obstinate when I say I want to keep them all despite the amount of arguing in the past I've done about the subject? A bit of a ranty aside and I apologize for this, but I've always been incredibly consistant with my philosophy for the DL and it's roster and I've always backed it up by going out of my way to play games so they'd have both voters and writers - even the ones people say no one wants to play. I like having all the different faces in the DL, regardless of if they're carbon copies or boring or not. I don't see how that's any less legitimate than cherrypicking.
Saying that my and others' blanket keep-all is a serious danger to the process and the DL is moot. We're still a part of the DL and even though we disagree with you, it's like you said. The process works. If enough people want to keep them in... thats what happens. They have the necessary support regardless of the peoples' reasonings behind the vote. If you're not happy with it, then thats unfortunate, but it's the best system we have. None of us are going to give up on the DL if things don't go our way anyway.
NINJA: But yeah, Tal probably sums up my point better.
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A preliminary topic would have just died before it moved anywhere. People get apathetic and forget about things. Stagnation is how we've ended up where we are now.
If people are apathetic about booting then we don't need to boot people.
People are apathetic about -everything-. Sure, everyone seems to agree that we need a change or that writeups should be done, etc etc, but very few people will actually -do- anything towards working towards these goals. A preliminary topic would require thinking instead of just voting, which is the only thing we can even sort-of count on people to do.
Providing a shortlist is a great starting point, and it actually gets people to give an opinion. If we have opinions, then those of us who are willing to work towards a goal will know what direction to go.
NEB thinks it's too much trouble to count up all these votes? Fine. I'll count them. I've been counting up all the votes on things as they go recently anyway.
The point I DO agree with is that this definitely should have been advertised on the main site alongside the rankings topic. There's no reason it should be hidden.
My view on booting is pretty clear for the most part - I think a smaller roster means more interesting matches from each individual game/battle system. Once we get rid of the cruft that has been sticking around Light and Middle for so long, we won't hardly need bootings anymore as we've gotten a lot more responsible with what/how many we rank at this point.
People talk about a next time with this, but honestly, apart from some S1/4 and maybe VP1, this covers most of the offensively overranked stuff and I don't foresee us ranking much more that needs to be axed... >.>;;
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Here's the thing. Honestly, I felt like this topic should be a "speak now or forever hold your peace" affair. People have talked about booting out some of the larger excess, or chopping games like Brig, for YEARS. And nobody does a goddamned thing about it. It never gets anywhere in preliminary topics, because people don't read and thus only vote on things in initial posts. and so we sit, people bitching and whining and so on. And to hell with that.
So what we have here is a straight up/down what does the DL want to do topic. It should be the last topic of its kind the DL needs, until the DL itself changes and the standards for ranking (and thus booting) change with them. This is your chance to boot, or keep, what you want, and should you fail then the DL will have spoken and shut up about it.
Will it work? Fuck no. But it's doing SOMETHING. Something there's not enough of here.
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Write-ins will not be accepted in this topic, so don't make them!
Right here is my problem. You're asking "What does the DL want to do?" but then restrict to these characters you and a handful of other people have chosen. That and as others have said only people who browse the forums will know this topic even exists. Voters who don't look at the forums might have people they like and they don't even get a chance to argue to keep them.
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Which is functionally no different from any other bootings that have ever happened. If someone doesn't pop into the forums regularly, they aren't likely to do so to participate in booting discussion, especially at this stage of the DL where voters outside forum posters are basically non-existent.
That doesn't make it well handled, naturally. Which wasn't my point. I was just putting my reasoning out there.
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NEB thinks it's too much trouble to count up all these votes? Fine. I'll count them. I've been counting up all the votes on things as they go recently anyway.
Yeah, because Elfboy and Super are currently counting up a hundred things right now as well as every other bloody ranking and booting topic that I can remember with maybe one or two exceptions. Saying "this is a disorganized movement and maybe it should have been thought through better" does not mean that they didn't want to do work. It means they didn't want to do TOTALLY USELESS work. Which is very fair.
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Which is functionally no different from any other bootings that have ever happened. If someone doesn't pop into the forums regularly, they aren't likely to do so to participate in booting discussion, especially at this stage of the DL where voters outside forum posters are basically non-existent.
That doesn't make it well handled, naturally. Which wasn't my point. I was just putting my reasoning out there.
Which fundamentally makes a final booting topic a bad idea. The group does have some level of shift.
We probably should have had a limit on how many times a given game can go up for boot, mostly because it's wasted effort past a point(Or, if it's not, if it's been sitting on the line for a lot of bootings and goes finally #6, it will produce large amounts of ill will.). But on new things to suggest? Nah, that limits what we can rank later and limits the group's changes. A final topic is kinda impractical, I feel.
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Aye, but there's still a lot to be said for "hey, remember we tried to do (x) and it didn't go?" It's something to hang your hat on, at least.
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Aye, but there's still a lot to be said for "hey, remember we tried to do (x) and it didn't go?" It's something to hang your hat on, at least.
But if (x) wasn't a universally-liked idea then is it really something you want to refer back to?
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NEB thinks it's too much trouble to count up all these votes? Fine. I'll count them. I've been counting up all the votes on things as they go recently anyway.
See Ciato, with an added dose of "...really?" thrown in. It takes time and it's annoying when the shit against the wall method is used with no preparation.
Here's the thing. Honestly, I felt like this topic should be a "speak now or forever hold your peace" affair. People have talked about booting out some of the larger excess, or chopping games like Brig, for YEARS. And nobody does a goddamned thing about it. It never gets anywhere in preliminary topics, because people don't read and thus only vote on things in initial posts. and so we sit, people bitching and whining and so on. And to hell with that.
So what we have here is a straight up/down what does the DL want to do topic. It should be the last topic of its kind the DL needs, until the DL itself changes and the standards for ranking (and thus booting) change with them. This is your chance to boot, or keep, what you want, and should you fail then the DL will have spoken and shut up about it.
Will it work? Fuck no. But it's doing SOMETHING. Something there's not enough of here.
The kind of widespread changes that would be needed to effectively overhaul the roster still leave you with a bigger group of games than the RPGP did, spread out over a much larger timeframe. The biggest draw killer in the past 30 seasons hasn't been obscure games (Because by and large we weeded out the worst of the worst and have been selective after that), but the sheer number of games in. You could say trim the DL down to 40 of the best drawing games and start ranking new ones, and you'd still have everything from FF1 to Persona 4.
There (For obvious reasons) isn't the will to do that to the DL. The tradeoff we've always made for letting fan/staff noms make up things is that we were not only going to have a large roster, but have most of those games get represented.
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I'll start this off by saying I really dislike this "throw crap at the wall and see if anything sticks approach". There's so much stuff up for vote here that I don't have any time to really think hard about anything and just have to go with my rough kneejerk opinions. There's a fair amount of stuff on this list where my opinion might be swayed by some good arguments, but I haven't had time to really any arguments in-depth and it feels like most people haven't had the time to really write such an argument out because they've been just as swamped with quantity.
Arc the Lad 4 - boot
Brigandine - boot
Legend of Legaia - keep
Lufia 1 - keep
Ogre Battle - boot
Phantasy Star - abstain
Tales of Destiny - abstain
Tales of Eternia - boot
Vandal Hearts - keep
Chrono Cross - keep Glenn, abstain on the rest because I barely/don't recognize them and don't have the time to do any research
Final Fantasy Tactics - keep all
FE7
Keep Canas, Erk, Fiora, Isadora, Legault, Priscilla, Raven, Renault
Boot Dorcas, Nino, Vaida, Will
Abstain on Lowen, Louise, Rath, Rebecca
FE8
Keep Artur, Colm, Gerik, Innes, L'Arachel, Marisa, Neimi, Rennac
Boot Duessel, Forde, Garcia, Saleh
Abstain on Cormag, Franz
S2 - Keep Shiro, Freed, Mukumuku, abstain on the rest
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hinode- well... if you don't recognize someone, is that not a sign that perhaps they should be booted?
I can run down who various characters are and point out the ones who fail less than the other ones, if you like. How much detail are we talking here?
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I haven't played CC/S2, and at this point my memory of " unplayed DL ranked games" isn't what it used to be. It doesn't help that the one name I did immediately recognize from the CC list was Glenn, who immediately made me wonder if the person who compiled the CC list was out of his mind. Not exactly a good first impression to make.
Changing my abstain votes on those two games to keep for now.
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Shin vs. Gabocha would probably make most people go "wha?" to at least one of them and not care about the other. Apathy is bad for interest.
I firmly believe that there is no benefit to booting anyone because it will not generate any interest in the DL. If people are apathetic about the DL then it is something that can be solved by having new people in, not kicking old people out. At least, that's how I feel.
I haven't voted on the DL in years, and I'd say obscurity is the biggest issue; it just got to the point that I would assume that I couldn't vote on any matches (especially as more and more games I hadn't played got ranked).
That said, no votes: I'm not following the DL right now anyway, so I'm not the person to appease.
EDIT:
Djinn: honestly because VP1 characters are just infinitely more memorable than Suikoden II characters due to how recruitment works. The fact that, honestly, a VP1 booting would be basically "the entire VP1 cast except maybe Mystina" (that is, everyone who didn't get a VP2 option) because everyone is right around the same in terms of skillset and plot worth didn't help, of course.
If it makes you feel better, I actually did ask and people said the same thing I kneejerked so.
That's... yeah, I guess that's valid. Though I wouldn't be too unhappy with a Boot All VP1-only Einherjar except Jelanda, Lawfer, Lucian, Mystina deal. And maybe have room for some fan favorites like Badrach, Shiho, Yumei, Aelia. But dropping say... Suo, Grey, Kashell, Nanami, GANDAR... it just seems like it would cut out some of the filler.
I <3 Nanami (not quite as much as Yumei, granted) and Kashell is on my top 10 list of most hated characters, and find Grey pretty memorable for his ridiculous voice. So...yeah, not necessarily an easy cast for nailing apathy. I'll grant you Suo, and...sure, Gandar just because he's overshadowed by Lezard.
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I haven't played CC/S2, and at this point my memory of " unplayed DL ranked games" isn't what it used to be. It doesn't help that the one name I did immediately recognize from the CC list was Glenn, who immediately made me wonder if the person who compiled the CC list was out of his mind. Not exactly a good first impression to make.
Chrono Cross is almost entirely pathsplit in one form or another, right? Glenn is on one of those path splits; the path split that is "Save Kid from poison" gets you Korcha, Razzly, and Doc, while the "Leave her to die" branch gets you Macha, Glenn, and... I believe Mel. I'll need to look that one up again. So you can see where Glenn, in the modern ranking environment, would struggle to get in despite his merits, and that's the criteria I was using here.
Put another way, I find it hard to justify putting Korcha on the list but not Glenn and so both should appear on the list even though Glenn stands a much better chance of surviving.
Suikoden II... put it this way. Those characters, with the exception of Gimiju and Lo Wen (the latter has a water rune, the former basically attacks twice every turn), have the approximate duelling ability of Duessel, and rather a lot less to do with the plot. Shirou pulls jeigan duty quite effectively, and Mukumuku is a squirrel so at least has a reason to not be good, but that's about it. PS1 Suikoden is considerably worse than GBA FE at personality in the secondary or tertiary cast, which is why you'll notice that very nearly every vote besides 'keep all' vote to get rid of basically every one of these characters. People who played the game are not particularly more likely to know who they are than someone who never played it.
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I haven't voted on the DL in years, and I'd say obscurity is the biggest issue; it just got to the point that I would assume that I couldn't vote on any matches (especially as more and more games I hadn't played got ranked).
You also had (have) an extremely small number of ranked games played. IIRC you started with like three-five games you could vote on and didn't really expand much from there.
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You guys really tend to have these topics where you go like, "We'll do x y z!" (See: Djinn's attempt to revamp DL to be more user generated content based) or argue about doing x y z (see: this topic) but nothing really comes of it.
Why don't you try doing something this time, even if you don't like it? You can always revert it after if you change your mind.
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I haven't played CC/S2, and at this point my memory of " unplayed DL ranked games" isn't what it used to be. It doesn't help that the one name I did immediately recognize from the CC list was Glenn, who immediately made me wonder if the person who compiled the CC list was out of his mind. Not exactly a good first impression to make.
Changing my abstain votes on those two games to keep for now.
Why, exactly? I think it's fairly clear that some of these people are clogging up the roster, and by keeping them you severely impede with the process. It's obvious that you have no qualms with booting, so yeah.
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I haven't played CC/S2, and at this point my memory of " unplayed DL ranked games" isn't what it used to be. It doesn't help that the one name I did immediately recognize from the CC list was Glenn, who immediately made me wonder if the person who compiled the CC list was out of his mind. Not exactly a good first impression to make.
Changing my abstain votes on those two games to keep for now.
Glenn has a perfect keep record for a reason; that doesn't mean we should keep say Pip (get the fuck out Pip, and take Sprigg with you) in the league.
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Yeah... actually... Pip and Sprigg both have potentially interesting mechanics/forms that could be relevant in the DL, but if 63 seasons wasn't enough to prompt someone to figure them out, they obviously don't have the interest necessary to keep them in. Switching my votes there to Boot.
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Just looked over my CC/FE/S2 votes and ended up being more decisive. Basically reworked. Noted changes.
Chrono Cross - The very definition of overranked in my opinion.
Doc - Boot. Boring, forgetable, plotless.
Draggy - Keep. Memorable, Non-human.
Funguy - Abstain. Memorable, Non-human, but too obscure.
Irenes - Keep. Memorable, Non-human, has plot, fairly interesting duelist for CC.
Janice - Boot. Non-human, but plotless and forgetable. Only notable dueling worth is the unique weapon, I think?
Korcha - Keep. As much as I hate him, Plot.
Leah - Boot.
Luccia - Boot.
Macha - Boot.
Mel - Boot.
Miki - Keep. Memorable, has fans, some plot, decent duelist.
Mojo - Boot. Memorable, Non-human, early-game. EDIT: But really easy to miss, actually, and no duelling worth.
Nio-Fio - Boot. Non-human... uhh... that's it. Kinda obscure and meh duelist. EDIT: Was an abstain, but just being a plant isn't enough for her.
Orcha - Boot. Boss form is stupid, plotless otherwise.
Orlha - Keep. Guess she has fans, but I don't think she's worth keeping. EDIT: She has more support than I suspected
Pip - Boot. Memorable (infamous at least), Non-human, variable typing makes him kinda interesting. EDIT: Already noted.
Poshul - Keep. Earlygame, Memorable!, Non-human.
Razzly - Keep. Same as above + Lots of plot.
Skelly - Keep. Undeads are so rare in the DL, the white mages need more punching bags.
Sneff - Boot. Go away forever, you worthless, plotless, infuriating, ugly, .... >:(
Sprigg - Boot. Some plot, transforming could be interesting. EDIT: If we had any stats for it after 63 seasons...
Starky - Boot. I just hate him. EDIT: Was an Abstain.
Steena - Boot. Plot, I guess. EDIT: But forgettable and redundant!
Turnip - Boot. Obscure, lategame, useless, but non-human EDIT: Being a plant isn't enough.
Van - Boot.
Zappa - Boot.
Pierre - Keep.
Guile - Keep.
Nikki - Keep.
Glenn - Keep. These four are all splitpath, but far more interesting/memorable than most of the cast of CC.
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword - Finally! I <3 FE7, but damn it was overranked with identical duelists. NO CHANGES
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones - FE8 wasn't nearly as bad, but I don't mind getting rid of a few of these guys.
Artur - Boot. Don't need another Lucius
Colm - Keep. Of course.
Cormag - Keep. We don't have that many Dragon Riders if we boot Vaida and Heath.
Duessel - Keep.
Forde - Boot.
Franz - Boot.
Garcia - Boot. We have FE9 Axe-users now.
Gerik - Keep. Memorable enough.
Innes - Keep. Plot.
L'Arachel - Keep!!!!!!!!!!!
Marisa - Boot. Fan-favorite. EDIT: But no plot and redundant with Joshua.
Neimi - Keep. Of course.
Rennac - Boot.
Saleh - Boot.
Suikoden II - Not sure why this is on the chopping block but VP1 is ignored, but I'd be happy to trim both. Seriously though, this game is just as well-loved and popular, and equally overranked.
Amada - Boot
Anita - Boot
Chaco - Keep. Plot, non-human
Freed Yamamoto - Keep.
Gabocha - Boot. EDIT: Don't need them both.
Gengen - Keep. Forced, and I like dogs. EDIT: Even though Gabocha's cuter.
Gijimu - Keep
Karen - Boot
Kinnison - Boot
Koyu - Boot
Long Chan Chan - Boot
Lo Wen - Boot
Millie - Keep, Earlygame and memorable.
Mukumuku - Keep
Rikimaru - Boot
Shin - Boot
Shirou - Keep
Sid - Keep
Simone Verdricci - Boot EDIT: Being decisive!
Tsai - Boot
Wakaba - Boot
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Okay, Super wanted my input on this. Not touching the games because a) They're not in the booting border. If that doesn't say enough, I'm not sure what else will and b) I haven't played them myself and I would not want to comment regarding booting something I haven't played since it feels more like catering to my own taste instead of what the community wants. Not to mention I've stopped being a voting regular for sometime now. As for trimming:
Chrono Cross
Doc - Boot
Draggy - Boot
Funguy - Boot
Irenes - Abstain. I don't feel strongly about her one way or another
Janice - Boot
Korcha - Boot. Split path PC that isn't wholly memorable like Glenn? Ew
Leah - Keep. Required recruit, plus she's decent in-game so you're more likely to remember who she is
Luccia - Boot. Pointless.
Macha - Boot. See Korcha.
Mel - Boot. The great thing about her is that you can still miss recruiting her even if you take the correct path.
Miki - Abstain. Don't feel strongly either way.
Mojo - Abstain. I like how he's a VOODOO DOLL. Unfortunately, that's about all I remember about him. So.
Nio-Fio - Boot.
Orcha - Boot
Orlha - Keep.
Pip - Boot. Admittedly, Pip is probably more votable if you consider his other forms like characters from other games have other forms. Still, no.
Poshul - Keep
Razzly - Boot. See Korcha/Macha
Skelly - Abstain. There's two arguments. One being that you get his first bone piece early, so you are likely to remember him just for that. On the other hand, he requires pretty much a game long fetch quest and then he's not super awesome. So...eh.
Sneff - Boot.
Sprigg - Boot. Gimmick that causes headaches and no one remembers, even if she is required.
Starky - Keep. Required, keeps CC diversity I suppose. And is pretty cool.
Steena - Keep.
Turnip - Boot. Wtf.
Van - Boot.
Zappa - Keep.
Pierre - Keep
Guile
Nikki - Abstain on these two. I don't think any of them are memorable except Pierre (although this is largely due to his fail). But having one and not the others is vaguely nonsensical to me.
Glenn - Split path argument, but its Glenn. People know who he is, he has Dragoon background and CC plot (aw yeah). So yeah, he's an exception.
Final Fantasy Tactics
Keep all sans Olan who I push for a boot and Zalbag who I abstain on. Olan is a one stage temp, which is pretty bad. At least even Zalbag has two forms. Zalbag, I dunno. I never considered Blood Suck, but whatever, his PC form is even less memorable. I wouldn't bawl over the two of them getting the punt.
The others all have reasons. FFT bosses are memorable enough largely in their own right. Especially considering Celia, Lede, Balk, Rofel all fight you at least twice. Alma is the reason why Chapter 3 and on exists, and while some of her mechanics are hidden, I don't really have an issue with keeping her in.
Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword
Bartre - Boot
Canas - Keep
Dorcas - Boot
Erk - Boot. Agree with Meeple here. Pent makes him largely redundant. Hey just like in-game!
Fiora - Keep. At least has a championship + stat spread that is different than her sisters.
Hawkeye - Keep. Think him, Louise and Pent all have ATHOS plot or something. So.
Heath - Boot
Isadora - Boot
Legault - Abstain. Legault's cool but I can't justify a Keep here.
Louise - Keep. Pent power.
Lowen - Boot. Who cares.
Nino - Boot. Ew Level split.
Priscilla - Abstain. See Legault.
Rath - Boot. He's the only nomadic trooper could save him. Maybe.
Raven - Keep. He's one of the best PCs in game and is very likely memorable just for that.
Rebecca - Boot
Renault - Boot. RICHARD power doesn't him unfortunately.
Vaida - Boot.
Wil - Boot. See Lowen.
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Artur - Boot
Colm - Keep. Grefter power.
Cormag - Boot
Duessel - Boot
Forde - Abstain
Franz - Abstain
Garcia - Boot
Gerik - Keep. Has some plot, is cool.
Innes - Keep. Plot or something.
L'Arachel - Keep. See Innes
Marisa - Boot
Neimi - Keep. Pairs up with Colm to destroy worlds.
Rennac - Keep. Pairs up with L'Arachel for uh...something
Saleh - Boot
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This topic closes tonight, get your votes in now!
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I haven't voted on the DL in years, and I'd say obscurity is the biggest issue; it just got to the point that I would assume that I couldn't vote on any matches (especially as more and more games I hadn't played got ranked).
You also had (have) an extremely small number of ranked games played. IIRC you started with like three-five games you could vote on and didn't really expand much from there.
More like 15, I think? Four or so FFs, VP, Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Suiko 2, Lunar 2, Shadow Hearts, SoA, couple of Wild Arms games, Chrono Trigger, probably a few games I'm forgetting. (And a bunch more that I've played significantly, but haven't beaten as I was only borrowing or whatever).
Low by this site's standards, no doubt. But...launching a random week 1...nope; can't vote on anything (even if I add in games that I've played partially but haven't beaten). Launching into a week 2...nope (although one match if I add in games I've played and haven't finished: Wren vs Kefka).
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You guys really tend to have these topics where you go like, "We'll do x y z!" (See: Djinn's attempt to revamp DL to be more user generated content based) or argue about doing x y z (see: this topic) but nothing really comes of it.
Why don't you try doing something this time, even if you don't like it? You can always revert it after if you change your mind.
Because that would require the DL to do something new and different and exciting. We can't have that, now can we?
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What's that? In the sky? It's.. It's the Boot Alma signal! *descends*
FFT- Boot Alma, keep the rest.
OB- Keep Rashidi, Endora, Destin, Fogel, (a few flag carriers), boot the rest.
Lufia 1- Keep.
Abstain on the rest.
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topic is closed, Elfboy will be posting results shortly!
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Results. As with rankings, each character is listed with (number of boot votes) vs. (numbe rof keep votes). 66% threshold was required to boot. All the same disclaimers of the ranking topic apply here. Again, thanks for your participation!
15-6 Mel, Turnip, Van
14-6 Funguy, Neo-Fio
14-7 Janice, Pip, Sprigg
13-7 Doc
12-8 Macha
13-9 Luccia
10-7 Mojo
10-11 Orcha
9-10 Skelly
10-12 Korcha
8-10 Razzly
9-12 Sneff
8-11 Irenes
9-13 Leah, Zappa
6-13 Pierre
6-14 Steena
7-14 Miki
7-15 Draggy, Starky
6-14 Guile
6-15 Poshul
5-14 Nikki
5-15 Orlha
1-21 Glenn
10-13 Olan
9-12 Zalbag
7-16 Alma
6-17 Celia
5-18 Balk
5-19 Rofel
4-21 Izlude
3-20 Lede
16-6 Dorcas
15-6 Vaida
15-7 Wil
14-7 Lowen
16-8 Nino
15-8 Isadora
10-8 Heath
10-10 Bartre
10-12 Renault
9-12 Legault
8-11 Hawkeye, Rath
7-14 Louise
6-13 Rebecca
6-18 Priscilla
4-18 Fiora
4-20 Erk
2-21 Canas, Raven
16-7 Saleh
12-6 Forde
15-8 Garcia
12-9 Marisa
8-9 Franz
10-11 Duessel
8-15 Artur
8-12 Cormag
6-15 Rennac
4-17 Gerik
3-16 Neimi
3-19 Innes
1-22 L'Arachel
1-23 Colm
14-6 Gabocha
12-6 Simone
13-7 Amada, Koyu, Sid
12-8 Gengen, Karen, Kinnison, LC Chan, Rikimaru, Tsai
11-9 Anita, Millie
11-10 Chaco
10-10 Lo Wen
8-12 Shin, Wakaba
7-11 Mukumuku
4-17 Gilimu
3-17 Freed
2-16 Shiro
Kharg: 10-11
Darc: 11-10
Brig: 7-11
Vaynard, Zemeckis: 8-10
Cador: 9-10
Songi: 2-18
Noa, Gala: 2-17
Vahn: 1-18
Lufia1: 3-17
Alis, Myau: 7-9
Odin, Noah: 8-8
ToD: 3-15
Bruiser: 4-13
Reid: 8-12
Farah: 8-11
Meredy, Keele: 9-10
Max: 10-11
VH: 11-9
Fenril, Fogel: 3-18
Debonair: 3-17
Destin, Tristan: 3-16
Rashidi: 4-15
Gares: 6-14
Endora: 5-13
Slust: 6-14
Yushis, Aisha, Rauny: 12-8
Saradin: 13-8
Norn: 14-7
Note from Super: I didn't add Fnorder's vote into anything but the relevant boots (had a chance to be booted.)