The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => Tournaments => Topic started by: Nephrite on March 10, 2008, 08:03:39 PM
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Gilderoy/nya9ac-1.jpg)
Welcome, one and all. I've gathered you noble warriors here today... for a test. All of you claim to be stellar fighters worth respecting, yet you focus your time and ability on one tiny section of your worth. One pathway of your lives that leads you. I've fixed this. When you enter my dungeon, you start at your lowest level, and build to potential levels of power far beyond that of what you have when you face your ultimate foe. If you can do all this and successfully return alive, anything you wish for shall be granted. Of course, that's the easy part. Getting there is the challenge. Make your teams, and good luck. You'll need it. Don't disappoint me now... That wouldn't be wise! Hahahaha!
FORMAT RULES
Each division is being assigned a point value, and you may have a team of up to 11 points or five members total.
You may use unranked characters not from the list of potential picks, but please try to gauge their power levels independently.
If you would like to make a team completely independently, try and give it some sort of theme -- for example:
God-Slayers: Ryu2, Yuri1, Hiro, Cthulu
It doesn't have to be some hard and fast rule, but it would be more fun if it was something everyone could easily understand.
Each team of participats will face various challenges, if they win a majority of the challenges they will move on to other challenges. If not, then they will be retired or moved to others.
Full List of Dungeon Picks (http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Full_List_of_Dungeon_Participants) (Click the link there to be taken to the larger list)
Sealstone List (http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php/Sealstone_List)
Rules and Guidelines can now be found At this handy link! (http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dungeon_Stuff)
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Unneeded post now that I use the wiki.
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Rika, Aeonless Yuna, Palom, Porom, Onix
Yes, I'm using Onix. Top that bitches.
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Guv, Purim, Ursula, Rutee, PC Seifer
Not sure if this will actually be any good, but eh, why not give it a shot.
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Question: What damage types does Cecil's Cover catch?
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Reserve post if I need it in the future.
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Brought to you by "This Alice Needs to Uninstall :V"...
TEAM EPIC ALPHONSE!!!
Ursula(2)
Nina-2(2)
White Rose(2)
Rutee(2)
Yulie(2)
No other commentary necessary. <_<;
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Edit
New team is
Purim
Rune
Jane
Marcus
Mint
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Experimental team I've been thinking about.
Raquel
Zozma
Claude
Aika
Mint
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...Fnorder you whore, that is an evil team if it can get going.
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Emily (3), Ephraim (3), White Wizard (1.5), Nei (1), Palom (1)
So, Emily and Ephraim smash w/ Song of Madness, WW and Palom fill the healing and attack magic roles.
Will die pretty quickly, I imagine.
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Rika(4)
Momo(3)
Jessica(Lunar)(2)
Nei(1)
FF1 Monk(0)
More or less copy+pasted from the old boards, but had to sub in Bow as Jessica's no longer an option. Still tempted to try and work Purim in there somehow.
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Rika(4)
Momo(3)
Bow(2)
Nei(1)
FF1 Monk(0)
More or less copy+pasted from the old boards, but had to sub in Bow as Jessica's no longer an option. Still tempted to try and work Purim in there somehow.
What the... somehow Jessica got removed from the middle list. She's still on there if you want to use her. I'll put her back now.
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Thanks.
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...Fnorder you whore, that is an evil team if it can get going.
Like I said, experimental. Bwahahaha.
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Tidus (3)
Toadstool (3)
Eileen (2.5)
Pikachu (1.5)
Monk (Free)
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...Fnorder you whore, that is an evil team if it can get going.
Like I said, experimental. Bwahahaha.
However, it, like all others, will never be as EPIC as my team! EPIC!!!
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Zerase (4) Emily (3) Bernadette (1.5) Rena (1.5) Mint (Free)
Two heavy-hitters plus the revival squad. Screw balance, surely this cannot fail! Well, actually, it can, but it makes me laugh, so that's good enough for now. And someone had to use Zerase. Lack of MT damage will probably sink me by floor two or three (prior to that I can rely on BREATH OF ICE. Also Rena physicals), but what the hell.
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EDIT: NEW TEAM IN LATER POST
Alakazam (3)
Gau (3)
Knight (2.5)
Marcus (1.5)
Mint (free)
Alakazam and Gau take a while to get going, but Knight and Marcus shouldn't have much trouble with the earlygame.
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Rika (PS4) (4) - For the Saner, ID, and general damage
Cecelia (WA) (4) - Does everything but damage and durability!
Cray (BoF4) (1) - Does damage and durability! Also, stat buffs, but I doubt he'll be doing much of that. Slow, needs Saner.
Mia (L:SSSC) (1) - backup magic damage and buffing! Saner should fix the speed problem! Slow, needs Saner.
Mint (ToP) (Free!) - Doesn't really need to do anything, she's Mint. Godlike.
Lots of healing and buffing on this team. This team falls apart without Saner to get going though.
I dub this team: "4 Mage-girls and a Cat-boy" >.>;;
EDIT: Even though Cray and Mia's rankings changed, my team remains the same. Mia gain +.5 rank while Cray got -.5 rank. Awesome... ?
-Djinn
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Tir McDohl (Suikos) (4) - Lategame insane damage, earlygame ST ID, midgame MT ID, fast, and...
Riou (S2) (3) - ...With this guy, Physical MT ITE damage (at least I think it's ITE). Also an emergency healer, along with being fast and evasive.
Lilka (WA2) (2) - Buffing and magic damage. Magic damage isn't MT until later, but eh. Also emergency healer and revive specialist. Also, literally never runs out of resources once you let her get going.
Lucia (SH2) (1) - ...Despite sucking in a duel, she's actually not too bad in a team setting. Her Aromatherapy skill is actually pretty interesting, and she can kind of attend to her defense problem with her own spells. Another plus for her is helping Tir and Riou be more awesome later, and Lilka around mid-game, I think... Ricardo would've been better, but I only had 1 point left.
Mint (ToP) (Free) - Unlimited healing. Lilka and Riou are there to panic heal if Mint goes down, but pretty much doesn't ever stop healing.
Biggest weakness: Status resistance. Lucia is basically the only one that can get it, and she can spread it around (for sacrificing other useful ATK or DEF buffs), but she has to get a turn, first... That, and Lilka's the only one with elemental damage, unless you count Lucia's Heat Edge. On the earlier floors, Lucia might have problems with resources, but it's not too bad. Stalling doesn't work because of her, but that's a small liability anyway.
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Naw ... Lucia's support is definitely better than than Ricardo's - he restores by a lower percentage than Lucia irrc and his offensives aren't enough to make up for the standard of Lucia's buffs. Good team.
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Let's setup a fun little team.
Cecil (3)
Ness (3)
FFT Chemist (3)
Raja (1)
FF1 Monk (Free)
Lots of healing with limited offense to chip its way through the dungeon with limitless durability.
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Kind of interested in this but ... if a character you want is already picked do you have to pick another one?
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Nope. You can pick whoever you want from the roster, assuming you don't go over on points or try to use someone twice in the same pool.
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Also, if memory from the original serves right, you can't have three or more like a previously made team. Though I may be mistaken...
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That was mostly a request so everyone didn't make the same team. I doubt it's going to be a problem again.
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Cloud(4)
Chemist(3)
Aika(2)
Songstress(2)
I don't know.
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Yuri2 (3.5)
Eiko (2)
Songstress (2)
Lucia (1)
Nei (1)
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You can only have a total of 5 party members, capsules included.
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Fixed.
Thanks Tonfa. Wish Peppita was in for an awesme combo of support and offense <_<
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Gau (3.0)
Tidus (3.0)
Wren (3.0)
Nei (1.0)
Mint (0.0)
I have no idea what I'm doing, so here's a team with pancakes on their head. Also, healing? Whazzat? >_>
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^^ http://www.timfanelli.com/images/no_idea.jpg
;D
Bleh added Aeris back in <_< I hope I'm not going to regret this but I was thinking on the bus and I remembered Aeris had a godly AoE revive in her L3 limit >_> Perhaps Protect/Shell from Eiko and Lucia's def buffs might enable her to survive long enough to pull off a limit in the first place :P Plus not familar w/th FF's equips so don't know how well Monk could be built up compared to Aeris.
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I swore never to use PS4 again. Also no 4s this time around.
Terra (3.5), FFT Chemist (3.0), Geno (3.0), FFT Time Mage (0.5), Mint (Free)
EDIT: Okay with Neph's changes I want to go for broke and try something crazier. Add no revival to the above conditions.
TimeLord (3.5), Jerin (3.0), FFT Ninja (2.5), Mia (1), Nall (0)
It's the TL three-step, and follow me: Eclipse, Twister, Leap. One to rape puny PCs, one to double a dose of damage, one to let a boss never get a turn. And of course, the grand finale of Overdrive can never go wrong.
Next we have Jerin. The Jerin-three step goes as follows: MT healing, MT damage, and speed. Mirror and Trick certainly don't hurt either in case troublesome nasty things come to plague our merry fellows. She's also quite durable for a support character, and is the party go-to in case things went horribly wrong last fight.
Ninja is our man, and he does things the manly way. Slice, dice, a drop of Don't Act here and there. FFT equip options are loaded to bear. Hit things hard and fast is a man's job; good to balance against the women and mystic snobs. When he gets Tricked out, it's even worse.
Gentle, lovely Mia, she waves her (speed-boosting wind) cane and makes flames and ice go boom. Supplementing Jerin's MT damage, she's got the speed to quickly toss her formidable buffs as well in case they come in needed. Ice Shell may save many a life from being snuffed out by those with spite.
And Nall, of course, makes sure our team doesn't succumb to those nasty nasty gang-up tactics. We can't have that, now, can we?
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Uh. Yuri2(3.5), Edgar(3.0), Claude(2.5), Aeris(1.0), Mint(0.0)? This'll probably suck, but eh. <_<
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Since my experimental team is going down like a sack of bricks (Experiment FAILED, by the way, Non-Zozma party members need to pick up the slack sometimes) I present a team for hilarity.
Yuri1
Yuri2
Ricardo
(Male) FFT Priest
Monk
I present, Team Yuri+... without a single female.
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Since my experimental team is going down like a sack of bricks (Experiment FAILED, by the way, Non-Zozma party members need to pick up the slack sometimes) I present a team for hilarity.
Yuri1
Yuri2
Ricardo
(Male) FFT Priest
Monk
I present, Team Yuri+... without a single female.
Team Man Festival.
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Not enough gay vampiric wrestler superheroes to call it that. <_<
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Following Nama's footsteps of creating a team with all same ratio numbers, here's a draft team of 2.5 points or lower!
Arnaud (2.5) - Thinking more a team perspective line, Slow Down is awesome. With Lyn, it gets even better. Goes without saying. But what I'm thinkin is that Illusion should help out a lot once he gets it. Of course, Hyper later means something like 6x damage on a crit, which is always fun. To me, his damage is good in the beginning, fails mid game, decent end game and fails again post game.
Lyn (2.5) - This was a spot between Rudy/Claude/Lyn. In the end, I chose Lyn over Rudy due to her being evasive and not horribly slow. Playing ACF, he doesn't have Defender although that aftergame damage is immensely sexy. I took Lyn over Claude on the account of Claude needing to utilize MP to pull off damage.
Eileen (2.5) - Reading the description, a fast mage works here. I need someone else other than Arnaud capable of doing some form of magic damage. Copper flesh also sounds awesome, will be fun to see how this plays out.
Garnet (2.5) - Staple healer. The real selling point was the MT later (this team really really needs) and some buffers along with elemental resists.
Mint (0.0) - Uh...capsule choice. Second healer sounds good.
Strengths: Team has some synergy. Evasion saves the team from *some* physical beatings. Illusion adds to it, sleep and Garnet's status could always be useful. Copper Flesh can be used to protect someone temporarily. Also everyone (except maybe Mint) is above average speed wise. That's always good. Magic defense seems to be solid all around.
Weakness: Damage is consistently iffy. Arnaud's decent in the beginning but horrible at varying points. Lyn is good as long as she is either doubling or hitting something that is not super tanky. Garnet has none until summons >_>. Not too sure on Eileen but I heard she's okay early on. Mint has none. This team is also notable for exploding to ITE physicals. This will always always be an issue. Status is something that can't be avoided (especially since Garnet can't block it herself). Second healer being a capsule is a red flag.
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Pretty sure there aren't any rules against using characters from the same game, so... solely because I can:
Raquel - 3
Guv - 2.5
Arnaud - 2
Yulie - 2
Ricardo - 1.5
Dead on the first floor? I wouldn't be shocked.
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Athos (4.0)
Ryu4 (3.5)
Hawkeye (2.0)
Time Mage (0.5)
Mint (Free)
Go go go Athos solos for floors 1 and 2. >_>
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After some debate and discussion, there are a few characters who have been re-evaluated. The full list is below.
Orlandu, Timelord, Zerase - 3.5, down from 4.0
Rikku (Items) - 3.5, up from 1.5
Angelo, KOS-MOS - 3.0, down from 3.5
Zemeckis - 2.5, down from 3.5
Alakazam, Cecil - 2.5, down from 3.0
Guv (No Call Team) - 2.5, down from 3.5
Cray - 1.0, Down from 1.5
Palom, Porom - 1.5, up from 1.0
DW1 Hero, Moulder, Rand - .5, down from 1.0
FFT Timemage - 1.0, Up from .5
For Rikku, she will be allowed common steal items. I am currently working with Elfboy on the specifics on what she'll be allowed depending on what she could reliably steal in-game.
Guv is having Call Team removed from his skill list but will retain everything else.
Rosa has been added as 3.0 Heavy
Rosa, Final Fantasy 4 Advance
Advantages: Durable healer. Starts of with Revival and gets damage later on as well as a nice selection of status.
Disadvantages: Slow, damage isn't anything until endgame. Revival isn't that great or is expensive later on.
Nall and PC Seifer have been added as Capsule Monsters.
Nall, Lunar Silver Star Story Complete
Advantages: Revives the team at the end of the battle with 1 HP. Very great if your healer is killed off quickly. Can't be targeted.
Disadvantages: You use a Capsule slot on a no-damage reviver.
PC Seifer, Final Fantasy 8
Advantages: No Mercy is a great MT Damage move. Otherwise, okay durability and damage.
Disadvantages: You're using Seifer, for one. Pretty plain.
You don't necessarily have to reorganize your team right now if you're using any of the reranked folks, but if you are chosen I'll need to get with you in regards to what you can do.
If anyone has any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
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Rikku, Mint, Tidus, Wren, Rand.
Rikku has utility of death and should be able to buff well under most interps. Tidus helps with Wren and Rand's speed issues and chips in nicely on damage, Wren brings MT and magic blocking, Rand chips in with extra healing and damage, Mint heals like mad and doesn't have to worry about silence with Rikku in play.
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Edit:
!1111
Terra [3.5]
Claude [2.5]
FFT Chemist [3]
Mia [1]
FFT Oracle
...!;lekfdk;ldf ?!?!111
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I like Lady Ashe's idea - FP Charge from Yulie means that Raquel will be intruding on her first turn every time and the like. Since weirdly enough no one else seems to have done this yet, I present the "time to look up those double and triple techs" team...
Crono (2.5)
Robo (2.5)
Marle (2)
Lucca (2)
Raja (1)
...with the obligatory green cheerleader for the time-traveling crew. No, I haven't played enough PSIV to get to Raja, but I see that he starts with Ataraxia for MP revival, solving at least one issue this team has. Hopefully any easy match in the middle of a floor can have Lucca Hypnowave the remaining enemy while Raja builds back any lost TP. Aura Beam & Aura Whirl can go off even without Spekkio's help on the early floors, and by the end, there'll be three revivers and Cure Touch for full team healing, Lifeforce at the start of any particularly tough battle for auto-life, and Delta Force for general MT pain. The major issue that remains for the CT crew is doing its good damage right away, though, what with Crono being the only legitimately speedy person here. I suppose I'll find out when I pay for that.
Mildly worried since I don't usually vote due to lack of familiarity with the format, but should be interesting to give it a go.
(EDIT: Ignore this team; I'll have to remake it. I forgot one rather big weakness this team has - I'd be willing to live with the creaky slowness of the group (Lucca being at 6 speed till she gets the Taban Vest, Robo being at 6 Speed until dang near the end of the game), but the real killer is that only Raja can revive on the first floor & a half, at least. And thanks to the slowness of the team, Raja eats a Purify Weird Soul from the VP mages, as Marle is too slow to provoke one out. Meaning this team loses on floor 2. Hmmmm.)
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Alright, and with Cecil now downgraded a bit, I find I have a bit more room to spend on high ticket characters. So, here's the new team.
Cecil (3)
Ted (3.5)
FFT Chemist (3)
Raja (1)
FF1 Monk (Free)
Less tanky, sure. But now I have a bit of speed, and EmoSMASH power coupled with a considerable amount of healing. Now if only he got S5 levels of spell charges.
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Chemist (3)
Raquel (3)
Jane (2)
Yulie (2)
Nall (0)
Can you say turn hax? I can!
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New team is go.
Nel (3)
Millenia (2.5)
Rose (2.5)
Jane (2)
Mint (Free)
Started out with me going "Let's grab PCs no one else has used," then morphed into Team Cid Fanbait (Plus Mint). Didn't give a whole lot of thought to how logistically feasible this is, granted, but on a glance, I do have most of the bases covered.
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Okay, take 2, now that I realize that the CT team would mean utter disaster on the early floors pre-Spekkio. Still want to do a themed team around a game, though... and while you'd think there wouldn't be much synergy here, perhaps there is....
Benjamin (3.5)
Alex (3)
Mia (1)
Nash (2.5)
Nall (free)
Benjamin is appointed the Jessica stand-in; I was originally thinking Aeonless Yuna as at least doing a better Jessica impersonation, but all her healing is single-target, and we need somebody with team healing to back up Alex and revive 1 HP dead party members at the start of a new battle. Ben is a lot faster than I thought, can also team up with Nash in the status game with the Charm Claw, and has giant MP reserves. Meanwhile Mia powerdrives Alex.
Not sure if this is any better, but it looks fun and possibly passable, at least.
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In addition to the changes I made above, Robo has been moved to a 1.5.
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Doesn't Nall also randomly revive characters during battle, not just after?
-Djinn
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He's got like a 1% chance of it, but yes, he can do that.
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He's got like a 1% chance of it, but yes, he can do that.
...it's way higher than 1%. More like 50% or something.
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Doesn't Nall also randomly revive characters during battle, not just after?
-Djinn
In Lunar, yes, he did have that ability. I'm a bit wary of letting him do that here, although I suppose if you somehow had a team that could stall long enough to do it if someone died...
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...Tal, I've had dead people far more often in L:SSSC than I care to admit. Either he does it more often early-game, or the chance is just really low, because I've only seen it twice; once on Ramus and once on Lucia.
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Nall revives way more in the beginning and basically never does later, yes.
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Alright! With MArcus and Nall, Floor 1 will never claim another casualty again!
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Chris Lightfellow, Suikoden 3 (3)- In to make sure my team doesn't get hit in its weakpoint for massive damage.
Tidus, Final Fantasy X (3) - Fast and is pretty effective once the SL is in play. With sonic steel he can haste Chris or Jane if they are not fast enough to pull of their roles.
Jane, Wild Arms: Alter Code F (2) - Was in at first because I had Raquel in the team. However is still solid because she can speed the rest of the team to let Chris lock things down hopefully. Thats really all she is in for.
Songstress, Final Fantasy X-2 (2) - tricks help everyone out.
Nall, Lunar Silver Star Story Complete (0) - Jane is more or less garrantied to die every fight. The rival is good even if its at 1hp. Jane just needs a turn.
10/10 points used.
I have no idea how this team would do. I am hoping Chris can cover the teams base's well.
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After talking it over with a few people, I am making the following additions to the Dungeon, as well as a removal:
4.0
Cloud, Final Fantasy 7 (+1 Storebought Materia per floor)
Advantages: Unique character that you can buy almost any Materia for. Many, many options.
Disadvantages: Some of the better Materia aren't storebought.
Bartz, Final Fantasy 5 (2 jobs Per Floor)
Advantages: Build him how you want him. Need revival? Got it. Need magic damage? Got it, too.
Disadvantages: Some of the combinations can be a bit limited at the beginning. Speed is pretty average.
3.5
Kyogre, Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire
Advantages: Auto Rain Dance helps his damage, even at the beginning. Starts with Water Pulse, which is great damage.
Disadvantages: If enemies have high magic resistance he may be in trouble. May be in trouble with lightning.
2.0
Songstress, Final Fantasy X-2
Advantages: MT Stat buffs and status, all in one package. Great choice for helping out.
Disadvantages: Not so hot at taking physicals. The better songs don't come for a while.
1.5 Gastly, Pokemon FRLG
Advantages: Physical immunity will help a great deal. Accurate status helps too.
Disadvantages: Damage kind of sucks. Doesn't like magic.
Also, Athos is dropping to a 3.5.
I am removing Snorlax, much to Rozalia's chagrin, I'm sure. :) Just replace him with another 2.0.
EDIT: Rydia is also dropping to a 2.0 from 2.5.
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Okay I replaced him with Songstress.
I'm wondering, would MP Mambo make SL not cost anything? Regardless my team now seems complete. Its weird tht 80% of my offence comes from tidus.
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Team editing Neph~
Yuri 2(3.5)
Eiko (2.0)
Songstress (2.0)
Lucia (1)
Nei (1)
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This is a new team that I think will do better than my current one.
Purim (3.5)
Rune (3.0)
Jane (2.0)
Marcus (1.5)
Mint (free)
I've been thinking about the Purim and Jane combo for awhile, but I couldn't decide on who to use for the others. I think that Rune and Marcus compliment them quite well. The main focus of the team is teamwork. Purim takes a couple floors to get her good spells so Marcus and Rune are there to smash the early floors. Around the time or a little before where Marcus stops being awesome, Purim gets blaze wall. With Jane, Purim can blaze wall before anything else can act. When Marcus starts to really suck, Purim gets moon energy which turns his damage from bad to excellent and also gives Jane ID physicals. Mint is there so that Purim doesn't have to focus entirely on healing. Rune gets revival early which helps take pressure off of Mint and Jane can use mystic in emergencies.
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Quick question - SH Yuri doesn't have Energy Charge is that right? I was thinking for changing for him but if not then Lucia's +50% effect oil combination on Energy Charge might make Yuri 2 a mighty enough choice for my offense. Also in game irrc Rage also stacked with Moon/Ocean and Energy Charge but ... Lucia can't do both things on her first round and of course she can't boost her own Rage either. Trying to think of a character for the third boost. Eiko's Might could be useful is what I'm thinking. Mrff dungeon needs more Power Dance Peppita imo <_< *goes to check if Songstress has any ATK boosters* >_>
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Quick question - SH Yuri doesn't have Energy Charge is that right? I was thinking for changing for him but if not then Lucia's +50% effect oil combination on Energy Charge might make Yuri 2 a mighty enough choice for my offense. Also in game irrc Rage also stacked with Moon/Ocean and Energy Charge but ... Lucia can't do both things on her first round and of course she can't boost her own Rage either. Trying to think of a character for the third boost. Eiko's Might could be useful is what I'm thinking. Mrff dungeon needs more Power Dance Peppita imo <_< *goes to check if Songstress has any ATK boosters* >_>
Nei may fulfill that requirement.
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... what exactly does Nei do? I couldn't find any detail on Song of Madness or any skill set at all for her really. Some kind of ATK booster it seems?
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Song of Madness boosts the entire party's physical damage by 2.5x. It's incredibly evil.
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Song of Skylark
Speeds up allies' chanting. (Useless)
Song of Serenity
Lowers foes' SKL+SPD. (May be useful? I don't know the exact number, I'd think it's pretty significant though. Does it depend on her rune level?)
Song of Madness
Raises allies' PWR+Berserk (not magicians+archers) (Sorry Rosa)
Song of a Hero
Heals 20% dmg from direct attack.
All of her spells have the same cast time, which basically makes them instant whenever she gets access to them with her high rank of Jongleur Rune usage or whatever it is.
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Thanks guys <(^^)>
Ok Jo'ou cleared up something I was worried about in chat so editing Nei in. Sounds like my kind of character *^_^*
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New team:
Kyogre (3.5)
Gau (3)
Knight (2.5)
Marcus (1.5)
Mint (free)
Yeah, Kyogre is borken as hell. Knew I was saving that extra half point for something.
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New team:
Kyogre (3.5)
Gau (3)
Knight (2.5)
Marcus (1.5)
Mint (free)
Yeah, Kyogre is borken as hell. Knew I was saving that extra half point for something.
You have 10.5 points now, though! Bad math!
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Dropping the old team in favor of a new one.
Purim (3.5)
Nel (3)
Garnet (2.5)
Nei (1)
FF1 Monk (Capsule)
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Me fail math? That's i.
Let's try this again.
Kyogre (3.5)
Gau (3)
FF5 Red Mage (2)
Marcus (1.5)
Mint (free)
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Just so everyone knows, I am putting Palom at a 2 and adding Ramza. Much like Cloud and Bartz, Ramza will have access to other jobs.
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Bartz (4)
Ramza (4)
Zozma (2.5)
Nall (0.5)
What?
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Okay, weird one.
Cloud (4)
Yuri 2 (3.5)
Juan (1.5)
Mime (1)
Bowser (1)
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Raises allies' PWR+Berserk (not magicians+archers) (Sorry Rosa)
Late, and not sure I should derail the topic with this, but that "not archers" thing was a false rumour; Song of Madness is in full effect for archers.
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Slightly major change! The capsules are all going away and as becoming Lights (except Nall who is a .5) and you are now able to choose up to 11 points for your team. This probably won't really affect anyone with a current team but feel free to update yours.
Also, some modifications in point values.
Angela from 3.0 to 2.0
Ephraim from 3.0 to 2.5
Arnaud from 2.5 to 2.0
Jean from 2.5 to 2.0
Quina from 2.5 to 2.0
Duran from 2.0 to 1.5
FFT Oracle from 1.0 to 1.5
Rena from 1.5 to 1.0
Sarah from 1.5 to 1.0
Added:
Bowser, Super Mario RPG 1.0
Pros: Starts off strong. Has neat Status attacks and is durable.
Cons: Slow, doesn't deal well with magic.
Ayla, Chrono Trigger 2.0
Pros: Fast with damage and status healing. Can work in a variety of teams.
Cons: Healing isn't very good. To get the most out of her you may need another CT character.
Lenneth, Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria 3.5
Pros: Amazing damage along with some really great skills. Revival and healing.
Cons: Takes a bit to get her really great skills. Bit of an interpretation headache.
Virginia (With Mediums), Wild Arms 3 4.0
Pros: Versatile as hell. Mediums give her a bevy of support options alongside defensive/offensive boosts that fix her initially suspect durability. PSes also give her a lot of status and elemental blocking resources with time.
Cons: Aside from Mystic and Summon, which are limited by FP, she's entirely ST. Damage is never going to be standout outside of prolonged battles, and the potential for twinkery is possibly lower than that of say, Bartz or Ramza in the long run.
Floor 1 Fiery Rage, Terra Roar, Aqua Wisp and Gale Claw.
Floor 2 Moon Spark
Floor 3 Flash Hit, Lucky Hand
Floor 4 Cosmic Cog
Floor 5 Love Charm, Lust Jaw
Floor 6 Hope Shard and Brave Seal
Floor 7 Upgrades to Floor 1 Mediums
Floor 8 Upgrades to 2-5 Mediums.
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Okay, I'll try my hand on a team.
Virginia (4), Geno (3), Nina4 (3), Raja (1).
Uh, no idea if it'll work well, but I'm basically banking the team on Virginia's versatility, Nina4 and Raja's resource-depth and Geno's speedy offense of both types+buffing. Since Virginia is a shoddy healer outside of Mystic, which is limited, I needed more good healing. This team's offense may fall flat pretty hard on the short run, but we'll see.
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Nice changes. It allows me more room so I'll redo my team a bit.
Chris Lightfellow, Suikoden 3 (3)
Tidus, Final Fantasy X (3)
Ephraim, Fire Emblem 8 (2.5)
Jane, Wild Arms: Alter Code F (2)
Nall, Lunar Silver Star Story Complete (0.5)
Same idea just with Ephraim added.
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Now that Elfboy has informed me about how silly Rikku is, she's been bumped up to a 4.0.
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Rikku (4)
Benjamin (3.5)
Cecil (2.5)
Mint (1)
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Just a couple more additions, this will probably be the last for a while.
Ryu2, 3.5
Arc2, 3.0
Shadow, 3.0
Sasarai (With TER), 2.5
Worker 8, 2.0
Strago, 1.5
Spar 1.0
Ryu, Breath of Fire 2
Advantages: Tanky with decent healing and physicals. Dragons are overkill damage for a shot.
Disadvantages: Dragons use up all his AP. Doesn't actually -get- those until Floor 3 or so.
Arc, Arc the Lad 2
Advantages: Brings a lot of neat team skills such as Weak Enemy, Might Mind as well as healing.
Disadvantages: His level advantage peters off very quickly. Speed may also be an issue.
Shadow, Final Fantasy 6
Advantages: Fast with good damage in Shurikens and Skeans. Has other anti-physical abilities, too.
Disadvantages: Damage starts to drop off quickly. Sucks terribly against magic.
Sasarai, Suikoden 3 (With True Earth Rune)
Advantages: Neat mage with fast damage and healing. Also status healing and magic protection.
Disadvantages: Besides his charge times he's kind of slow and isn't very durable.
Worker 8, Final Fantasy Tactics
Advantages: IMMUNE TO MAGIC. ITD Damage on top of that. Counters help.
Disadvantages: IMMUNE TO MAGIC. Can't be healed or revived via magical means.
Strago, Final Fantasy 6
Advantages: Blue Magic has a lot of neat tricks. Starts with good damage that is also MT.
Disadvantages: The really good Blue Magic isn't for quite a while. Strago also has some durability and speed issues.
Spar, Breath of Fire 2
Advantages: Relatively durable healer with stat increasing and debuffing options. Also some status.
Disadvantages: Healing peters off very quickly and damage is never very good.
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Does Sasarai come with a Flowing Rune in his other hand like in game?
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Yes.
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Ryu2, FF5 Mime, Jane, Songstress, Marcus
3.5+1+2+2+1.5
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New team since updates ~
...uh.
"Team FF Characters & Lenneth"
Terra 3.5
Lenneth 3.5
(Male!) Chemist 3.0
Seifer 1.0 because... because idk.
It'll be liek Terra and Lenneth having hot yuri times with Chemist and Seifer trying to get peaks.
While traveling through the dungeon.
...yeah idk.
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Okay, adjusting my team for new rules:
Rikku, Mint, Tidus, Milennia, Rand.
Changed a whole one person, from Wren to Milennia. Holds onto the elemental damage, and provides some actual magical offense for the team. The general strategy is intact - copious Use abuse for MT damage early and utility/healing later on, Tidus has damage and Haste, Millennia brings the MT damage and Spellbinding Eye, Rand chips in on healing and damage - and buffs if you allow Attack Up - as necessary (and hopefully doesn't fail too horribly at speed once Hasted), Mint heals forever.
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I miss the capsules... ;_;
New team time. salvaging the old one seems silly with all the changes.
Cecelia Lyn Adlehyde (WA1) 4.0
Arc Eda Ricolne (AtL2) 3.0
Princess White Rose (SaGa) 2.0
Freyjadour Falenas (S5) 2.0
Should be eleven points.
I call it... "Team Royale"!
Let the invincible hype train begin!
-Djinn
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You haven't forgotten me have you Neph? ;_;
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I did! I'm writing myself a note now so I don't forget again, my apologies. I don't have any good excuse besides I forgot. ><
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Do you have a list you can put up of the order of teams so we know when our team is up, like the one in the last topic?
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It isn't an actual list of who gets in when, that part I randomize. This was a bit of a strange situation where I forgot something when I rolled the teams before. I can still post the list anyway if you want, though.
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That would be great.
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Wow, this looks really interesting. It's not too late to make a team, I hope?
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Wow, this looks really interesting. It's not too late to make a team, I hope?
You are free to submit a team at any time.
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Let's see...
Rika (4)
Arc (3)
Lilka (2)
DoS White Wizard (1.5)
Moulder (.5)
I wonder how far this team can go before the lack of offense catches up with them.
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Tir (4)
Riou (3)
Hiro (3)
Erk (1)
Meh, let's see my Tir/Riou combo fail.
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Hey Neph, is Robo worth 1.5 or 2.5?
In his Cons and Pros, you have him in the 2.5 section, but in the list, he's valued at 1.5?
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Hey Neph, is Robo worth 1.5 or 2.5?
In his Cons and Pros, you have him in the 2.5 section, but in the list, he's valued at 1.5?
I really need to be more careful... Take the short list as what is correct. He's 1.5.
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>_>;_;<_<
Nah NP. I appreciate that it's a lot for you to keep up with (but to make up for it you could add Peppita to the dungeon! ... *flees*)
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Yeah, I'm not expecting great things out of this team. I gave up caring and just slapped something together. Hopefully it'll work? Meh.
Magus (3)
Tidus (3)
Garnet (2.5)
Robo (1.5)
Raja (1)
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Tir, Aeonless Yuna, FFT White Mage, Hellion, Raja.
Edit - 4, 3.5, .5, 2, 1 = 11
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We have a new addition for you! Fresh from Excal, it's Killey from Suikoden 2.
Initial
Fire Rune
Poison Rune (W)
Floor 1: New Game -> Muse
Double Beat Rune
Fire Lizard Rune
Earth Rune
Hazy Rune
Killer Rune
Magic Drain Rune (W)
Spark Rune
Water Rune
Floor 2: Muse -> Castle
Fire Sealing Rune
Gale Rune
Lightning Rune
Silence Rune (W)
Wall Rune
Wind Rune
Floor 3: Castle -> Matilda
Second Rune Slot Available
Chimera Rune
Exertion Rune (W)
Ressurection Rune
Sleep Rune (W)
Waking Rune
Warrior Rune
Wizard Rune
Floor 4: Matilda -> Luca Blight
Draining Rune (R)
Firefly Rune
Knight Rune
Skunk Rune
Floor 5: Luca Blight -> Neclord
Cyclone Rune
Darkness Rune
Double-Strike Rune
Floor 6: Neclord - > Rockaxe
Third Rune Slot Available (Head)
Blue Gate Rune
Mother Earth Rune
Rage Rune
Floor 7: L'Rennouille
Counter Rune
Flowing Rune
Fury Rune
Thunder Rune
Violence Rune
Killey will work much like the other 4.0 choices. You will have the option to change his runes at the beginning of every floor to whatever runes you have available at the time.
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Like I did with my first team, I'll post how effective I think each character was in the dungeon.
Purim: Purim was generally pretty effective, she needs someone to help her out in the first floor and someone to boost her speed. However, she gets a fatal status early with petrify and blaze wall was also effective.
Rune: Rune starts well. Unfortunately, there is that point around the middle where he is only about average speed. He is still usuable as a early game power who doesn't completely fail late.
Jane: Truthfully, Jane was a disappointment. The one main oversight I had when making my team was that I forgot that Jane didn't start with Follow Me and that was the reason my team lost on the third floor. I can't really advise using her. The main reason most people use her is so that slow teams can go first. If the slow team is well designed they can power past the first two floors with little difficulty, but the third floor decimates slow teams. Either Flik fries the team or the BoF/FFX floors destroy them with their speed, status, and damage. Additionally my team wasn't slow. Purim and Mint where average, Rune was slightly above, and Marcus was average and won tiebreaks. I would definately reccomend that the floor she learns Follow Me is put in her description.
Marcus: He did his job. He helped Rune beat the first floors, and I didn't reach the floor where he starts to get bad.
Mint: She heals.
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I would definately reccomend that the floor she learns Follow Me is put in her description.
Done.
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Can we all do this?
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Of course.
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Thanks~ <(^^)>~
Yuri 2 - Yuri did great, he was my main offense both physically and thanks to the array of fusions he brought to the table - even early game - magically as well. Good for support spells too. SHC status blockers. Offense for floor one, revive by F2 and fire damage for Ultros . His stats were quite good as well, definitely not as slow as some might have thought. Cleary wasn't getting doubled. MVP obviously along with Songstress. I made some enquries about the dungeon during the duration that my team was in and right after and judging from the advice I got from Tonfa - divide end game levels by seven - Energy Charge, reviving and L2 wind fusion for speed stat twinking were definitely legal for Yuri by F3 , there shouldn't have been any issue by that. Meh. Judging by the levels of my characters and the way chapters are split in game Amon and two L3 fusions were also legal (as well as Lucia's Night Oil) but at least I can see why people might not allow those due to the brokeness of Shadow Hearts Covenant in allowing your characters such goddamn overpoweed stuff early in game. They are definitely options though.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - I *really* recommend people dungeon voters that haven't played SHC already to play it. It's a good game and it has some really nice twinking options for characters in battle (Lucia's oils are <3) The battle abilities of each character in general are quite interesting really.
Songstress - Songstress is hax clearly. Shuts opponents down with Silence by F1, slow and sleep options by F2. Stop and Haste by F3. Hax. Nice array of accessory options as well - Tonfa should totally post some of these in the stat topic! >.> What is also hax is Songstress speed. Faster than Yuna 2! I didn't realise quite how good her speed was in my team overall until I checked but due to that the team should have definitely been able to handle the Lulu/Yuna fight.
Great support character. She, Lucia and Nei would have enabled Yuri to do very, very evil things on later floors due to the nifty even more hax abilities they pick up as they progress. Oh well.
Lucia- Surprisingly good! At least to those that underestimated her. Mwhahahaha. Even I underestimated her a bit and I already knew she was awesme! Mainly I didn't know that she picked up Rage and Gale pretty early. Healing, support spells, stat boosters, status protection and mp regeneration are all availble to her early on. Evilness. Stats aren't too shabby either. Faster than I thought she was, not a speed demon by any means but not snail slow either. SHC status blockers.
Neph should give her added ring effects for her physical as well to make her even meaner! Yes~
Nei- There! - for the first while until she picked up SoM. Seems to be something to carried around until she get SOM, just being there! on the first floor or two. Granted Song of Serenity seemed to have some uses in slowing enemies down ... but I'm not sure what it lowering SKILL! does so I couldn't really argue points with that move. Song of Madness alone is worth picking Nei for though. Very evil buffer. Gives me fond nostalgic memories of Peppita's Power Dance so I like Nei!
Eiko - LVP. It seems like Eiko was the weakest link in my team, everything points to her being so. I'm disappointed. I thought she'd be better than that. Speed ... is not really something I take note of in game FFIX and I always find Eiko very useful there ... just .. bah. Definitely snail like in the dungeon. Faster than Lulu though! Just >.> Had a quite a range of useful abilities (Life, Cura, Shell, Protect, Fenrir, Silence, Haste (Emerald is Cleyra), Reflect (hey Garnet is allowed it for F3! >.>), possibly Phoenix for those who take Phoenix Pinion being in the inventory from early on being reason enough to allow Eiko to use it. Meh. Just wasn't fast enough for voters to give her the respect she needed to take advantage of the skill set. Disappointed!
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My main concern with your team was and is the lack of speed- you have to be quick to the draw in the later floors or else. Lucia's buffs really help there, but.. uagh. That and the lack of overall durability hurts too. Good build though, very different than the normal duengon style.
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Garnet was reduced to 2.0. Oh joy! Time to remake my team.
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Edit:
Aika (2.0), Gilder (2.0), Demi (3.5), Shadow (2.5), Lucia (1.0)
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Let's try this again. Team Spamalot is go!
Tir McDohl (4)
Rika McCheddar (4)
Raja McFrail (1)
Mime McFFFive (1)
and...
Rena Lanford (1)
to break a perfectly good trend.
Two godlikes for status, buffing, attacking, and power. With two dedicated healer/buffers as well as a Mime to add effectiveness to anyone who needs it. Always important when dealing with Soul Eater!
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*looks at Excal's team* That looks surprisingly solid in theory... Anything that's not immune to ID better look out...
-Djinn
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It's also a point over.
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It's also a point over.
Each division is being assigned a point value, and you may have a team of up to 11 points or five members total.
4+4+1+1+1 = 11
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Super apparently doesn't read the rules anymore, since his team is actually a point -under-.
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... Team change!
Bartz (4.0)
Ramza (4.0)
Nate (3.0)
This team will likely fall by floor 3. But I will have -fun-, damnit.
EDIT: ...I'm not sure they pass floor 1. They do okay after that! But floor 1... especially the second to last fight... is kinda uh.
Need to rethink this. Also need to make a point of something.
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Super apparently doesn't read the rules anymore, since his team is actually a point -under-.
Oh shoot. 11 points? Cooooooooooooooooooooool. Yes, I will have to adjust my team.
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Out of curiosity, does having Aika -and- Gilder on the same team mean that they share an SP (AP?) bar?
I'm trying to remember all of SoA's team mechanics now. Thanks a lot, super.
-Djinn
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Don't see why they wouldn't.
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Maria (2.0), Peppita (1.5), Tidus (3.0) Rikku (4.0 ) ... FFT Priest(0.5)?
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Maria (2.0), Peppita (1.5), Raquel (3.0) Rikku (4.0 ) ... Nina 3 (0.5)?
You can fit a .5 in there!
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... hax!
Yeah *still thinking on who would be best*
*Decided to switch Raquel for Tidus and Nina for Priest/ess - I hope this doesn't come back to bite me in the ass >.>
My reasoning? - Maria/Peppita/Raquel seemed to be leaning my team too much towards the offensive slant, perhaps too much overkill on offense when other options could be utilised. It *might* have been ok if it was also a *fast* overkill offense but if the SO3 ARPG characters are forced/held to turn based then both Maria and WA4's Raquel are slow and Peppita isn't much better unless Bunny Shoes/elven slippers/ring of haste are allowed (on the bright side if forced to turn based there should be no question of Peppita getting Faerie Friend/Dream Hammer off on full power/no major issues over the number of hits SO3 characters get in general) Rikku's speed is great ... but I'm not sure Rikku *alone* would be enough to help ally speed issues substantially ... and apparently there isn't a 0.5 that can help out with party speed boosting. Tidus' Haste/Hastega should help with that though and combined with Rikku's Chocobo Feather that makes my party a good deal more balanced I think. After finding a skill list for Nina3 I discovered that she didn't have a speed buff *or* revival. Rikku as my only reviver is bad. In comes Priest. Awesme white magic skill set. MP issues yes but with Rikku and eventually Peppita with Healing Dance spreading out support between them perhaps Priest's resources won't be stretched too think. If s/he somehow makes it to when Peppita gets MP regeneration Priest has a field day >.>
Run down - Peppita is my atk/damage buffer/back up healer/chaos-freeze ID whore support, Maria is my main offense, Tidus is my Time Mage and Rikku and Priest are my main overall support.
Of course Maria/Peppita/Tidus/Rikku all have other options they can ultilise as well if need be. Maria can do back up support, Peppita can do great complimentary back up damage with Maria - remember she can *chain* Power Dance into her offensive battle skills like Faerie Friend w/o losing the ATK boost, Tidus can do offense with powerdanced quick hits/overdrives, Rikku can do offense with MT elemental items ... well uhh ... Rikku can do a lot actually. It'd take too much to detail it all in one post right now xD
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Blue 4.0, Relm 3.0, Zozma 2.5, Monk 1.0 Rena .5
Relm's Espers: Shiva, Shoat, Phoenix
I think this team should do really well. The only thing I'm really worried about is the first two floors and Zozma greatly helps with those. Fortunately Vermillion Sand should be really powerful at that point in the game so Zozma will have some help early on. Floor three is where my team really starts rolling. Relm gets good damage and two fairly accurate deadly statuses and Blue's skillset and the Monk's damage should be getting really good around then. Endgame they should be set. Blue will have overdrive and a ton of other stuff, Zozma's sharp pain will still be wrecking pcs, Relm will have brutal damage, healing and fatal statuses, the monk be punching things for a ton of damage, and the priest should have plenty of mp to use his good skillset. Another interesting thing is that at endgame both Blue and Relm have MT revival which will make the team difficult to kill.
Edit: Swapped Priest for Rena
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Benjamin (3.5)
Magus (3.0)
Tidus (3.0)
Robo (1.5)
Well see how this team holds up. I don't know if I've packed in enough healing or not, and the fact that I only get revival come floor 4... but hopefully, it'll manage.
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Just so everyone knows, I've re-linked the larger list here: http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Full_List_of_Dungeon_Participants
The forums were giving me fits because of the size of the post.
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Eh, just drop me from the dungeon list for now, I seem to have issues thinking of teams worth their salt.
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Lilka's stuff is all ST isn't it?
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Lilka's stuff is all ST isn't it?
Um... Sort of? All of Lilka's spells EXCEPT for the stat-downs are ST (stat down spells are GT), but her Dual Cast spells are all MT (kinda nukes her damage, though...).
However, hitting Mystic up on items is all GT, if you allow that (Mystic on a Holy Grail for GT ID protection, and on elemental rings for GT elemental damage? Talisman loses to Life Orb in Healing potential, and Full Libra is like a party-wide Restore).
EDIT: More info.
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As a friendly reminder to anyone I have yet contacted about to-be-in Dungeon teams: Please update them. I like to give everyone a chance to update their teams before they go in. Some of them have been updated recently and some have not, so if you have any changes, please go ahead and do them as soon as possible. Thanks!
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I'd like to substitute Erk for Mime.
Should still be 11 points total, if Tir, Riou, Hiro and Mime join forces. :v
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Jane, Wild Arms: Alter Code F (2)
Jude, Wild Arms 4 (2)
Arnaud, Wild Arms 4 (2)
Raquel Applegate, Wild ARMs 4 (3)
Yulie Ahtreide, Wild ARMs 4 (2)
Join Jane on her greatest adventure yet as she explores Nyarlathotep's Dungeon with her merry band of kids! Will she snag the Gem that is supposed to be within or will she fall pray to Nyarlathotep like so many before?
Can't do any worse then my last team :'(
Also you need to totally add Kresnik as a 2 point fighter ;D
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Jane, Wild Arms: Alter Code F (2)
Jude, Wild Arms 4 (2)
Arnaud, Wild Arms 4 (2)
Raquel Applegate, Wild ARMs 4 (3)
Yulie Ahtreide, Wild ARMs 4 (2)
This team looks scary if you allow Jude and Jane to use Mystic items. Otherwise, there's just not enough healing (and Yulie's speed is too slow to be an effective lone healer). Team attacks, of course, are amazing - and if the team can make it to where Jane learns 'Follow Me', they could break the Dungeon conceivably.
-Djinn
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Relying on Mystic is not a good idea imo since FP has to be built up each time. I'm having similar thoughts about Rikku's Overdrive >.>
Changing my team to -
Aeonless Yuna (3.5), Tidus (3.0), Maria (2.0), Peppita (1.5), Adray (1.0)
May add in Raquel there somewhere pending on board respect for the overall offense of Tidus/Maria/Peppita and they should considering Maria's generally the best in her game and Peppita is right beside her once she gets Dream Hammer and really solid back up damage with Faerie Friend - but hey they're not sexy lesbian ninjas! ;p
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Bah. Floor ten was looking like it'd be interesting too.
Well, synopsis time.
Orlandu: Excellent for what I needed him for: Fast damage and disabling. Giving him Item as an aftergame bonus just compounded his brokenness. Probably would have given him either a Reflect Ring or Blade Grasp for floor ten.
Nel: Not much aside from more damage and pinch healing for the main part of the dungeon, but the aftergame Tri-Emblem raised her damage to ridiculous proportions, and she'd likely have been a key player on floor ten, as she'd have been able to drop a Splitting Sky combo on someone to both kill them and deplete their MP to prevent them from doing much if raised.
Garnet: Healer with good MT magic damage to back her up. Doesn't sound like much, but this team would have gotten walled at spots if it wasn't for her summons.
Monk: Damage, damage, and more damage. Entirely one-dimensional, but works due to...
Nei: Linchpin. Took the team from above average damage to breaks-the-dungeon level offense. Being able to boost a physical team's offense to the point where they were one-rounding SSSC bosses without breaking a sweat is an impressive feat. Likely would have picked up a Mother Ocean Rune for floor ten to go with the Skunk Rune for emergency revival/healing duty, once the main threats had been dealt with.
Probably going to have another team up somewhat soon, though it's likely to just be a refinement on this one. Might hold off to see if anyone from the suggestions topic gets in first.
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Rika, Bartz, Crowley, Eiko is my new team.
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Seeing as my team hasn't been updated, I'll simply post the new team again.
Benjamin (3.5)
Magus (3.0)
Tidus (3.0)
Robo (1.5)
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Revising my team:
Alicia (2.0)
Lenneth (3.5)
Ephraim (2.5)
Arnaud (2.0)
Mia (1.0)
For a total of 11 points.
NO BUFFS, NO TANKS, DAMAGE AND HEALING ONLY, FAIL ON THIRD FLOOR.
Let's do this.
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NO BUFFS, NO TANKS, DAMAGE AND HEALING ONLY, FAIL ON THIRD FLOOR.
FINAL DESTINATION.
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A risky team, but let's see how it works.
Orlandu (3.5)
Crono (2.5)
Ayla (2)
Alena (2)
Rena (1)
Well I like the idea of a blitz team rather than the more common stall game... expect attempted Falcon Hit hype, which C & A do get surprisingly fast. Was considering L2 Jean (note: unlike the description, she certainly does have MT damage in Blue Dragon Kick or whatever - mind if I edit her description?) as in-theme for speedy beatdowns, but 50% status is probably a headache in a dungeon where it seems many people rule that will auto-fail, and she only has game-best damage from floors 4-6. Before randomly tanking on floor 7 thanks to Apocalypse & Triple Sword. Le sigh. Since I recommended Alena be brought back, think I'll use her instead; should be interesting as to how well she does. Also please don't kill Rena before Crono gets Life.
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Revising my team:
Alicia (2.0)
Lenneth (3.5)
Ephraim (2.5)
Arnaud (2.0)
For a total of 11 points.
NO BUFFS, NO TANKS, DAMAGE AND HEALING ONLY, FAIL ON THIRD FLOOR.
Let's do this.
3.5+2.5+2+2 = 10
That's only 10 points...?
Also, you forgot 'barely any elemental/status immunity'...
-Djinn
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A risky team, but let's see how it works.
Orlandu (3.5)
Crono (2.5)
Ayla (2)
Alena (2)
Rena (1)
Well I like the idea of a blitz team rather than the more common stall game... expect attempted Falcon Hit hype, which C & A do get surprisingly fast. Was considering L2 Jean (note: unlike the description, she certainly does have MT damage in Blue Dragon Kick or whatever - mind if I edit her description?) as in-theme for speedy beatdowns, but 50% status is probably a headache in a dungeon where it seems many people rule that will auto-fail, and she only has game-best damage from floors 4-6. Before randomly tanking on floor 7 thanks to Apocalypse & Triple Sword. Le sigh. Since I recommended Alena be brought back, think I'll use her instead; should be interesting as to how well she does. Also please don't kill Rena before Crono gets Life.
Rena gets revive fairly late (Floor 4?), I think Crono gets it before her.
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Revising my team:
Alicia (2.0)
Lenneth (3.5)
Ephraim (2.5)
Arnaud (2.0)
For a total of 11 points.
NO BUFFS, NO TANKS, DAMAGE AND HEALING ONLY, FAIL ON THIRD FLOOR.
Let's do this.
3.5+2.5+2+2 = 10
That's only 10 points...?
Also, you forgot 'barely any elemental/status immunity'...
-Djinn
Oh right, let me put Mia in there who is equally worthless on the tanking front.
See, my strategy consists of Alicia and Lenneth handling the healing (80% Heal x 2 = ♥), while Arnaud and Ephraim go HURRRRR ATTACKS and I guess Mia can go as well to go ^___^ FLAME CIRCLE FROST WALL OHGODOVERPOWEREDFIRESPELL.
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Revising my team:
Alicia (2.0)
Lenneth (3.5)
Ephraim (2.5)
Arnaud (2.0)
For a total of 11 points.
NO BUFFS, NO TANKS, DAMAGE AND HEALING ONLY, FAIL ON THIRD FLOOR.
Let's do this.
3.5+2.5+2+2 = 10
That's only 10 points...?
Also, you forgot 'barely any elemental/status immunity'...
-Djinn
Oh right, let me put Mia in there who is equally worthless on the tanking front.
See, my strategy consists of Alicia and Lenneth handling the healing (80% Heal x 2 = ♥), while Arnaud and Ephraim go HURRRRR ATTACKS and I guess Mia can go as well to go ^___^ FLAME CIRCLE FROST WALL OHGODOVERPOWEREDFIRESPELL.
Where do you get the, uh, what was it called in VP2... the AP or whatever for two heals a turn? (YES I AM APPLYING VP2 MECHANICS!)
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I meant that even if one drops out I still have the other for super-l33t Healing powarz.
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When did Terra drop to 3.0? q_q;
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Cancel my team for now, will have to think it over more. The more I think about it the more that team loses on even seemingly favorable floors by Rena getting ganked, and Rena's Life is later than I recalled. I could upgrade Rena to Garnet... and then downgrade Alena to the Monk... but that's approaching Unoriginal's team with the serial numbers filed off. Hmmm.
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OKAY, NEW PLAN.
Scrapping previous team (again) for more win. Or at least diversity.
Blue (4) (YES I WENT THERE) DAMAGE AND BLUELIKE.
Alicia (2) HEALING AND REVIVAL.
Nel Zelpher (3) HEALING, DAMAGE AND STATUSES.
Maria (2) HEALING, BUFFS AND DAMAGE. FUCK YES. (she has healing right?)
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OKAY, NEW PLAN.
Scrapping previous team (again) for more win. Or at least diversity.
Blue (4) (YES I WENT THERE) DAMAGE AND BLUELIKE.
Alicia (2) HEALING AND REVIVAL.
Nel Zelpher (3) HEALING, DAMAGE AND STATUSES.
Maria (2) HEALING, BUFFS AND DAMAGE. FUCK YES. (she has healing right?)
Nice skillsets there, but they aren't a particularly durable bunch. Offhand I wanna say they all get 2HKOed by average damage? They -are- a speedy group if you see ARPG attack rate as indicative of speed, though, so it might work?
-Djinn
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Alicia and Nel are average on durability, so no danger of 2HKO from average there. Think Maria barely avoids that fate, too... though she might not early on because there's no Sophia to drag the average down yet and Cliff's beefy HP score matters more.
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Ryu1 (3.0), Ness (3.0), Lucian (2.5), Blanca (1.5), Shiho (1.0)
Without examining any of the current floors. *nods*
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As far as the SO3 girls are concerned (w/o factoring in convert damage to MP and MP twinking to the mix) it goes Mirage > Nel/Peppita > Maria > Sophia durability wise if we are looking at HP. Nel and Peppita have similar HP and MP growths though one usually tends to have a bit more HP than MP whereas the other has a bit more MP than HP, I'm always forgetting which one is which >.>
Also Maria *does not* have innate/unique healing. All characters except Nel, Sophia and Adray can only use the spell Healing via the use of Common Support Symbols which is taught from the Decrepit Tome - book item. Apart from spells the only other character to have party healing is Peppita with Healing Dance a battle skill of hers. Sophia also has parasitic healing by setting Blood Scylla to a battle skill as does Albel with Vampiric Flash but those are self affecting only.
In addition relying on Alicia as a reviver = very bad idea.
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Hmm... Sound enough arguments...
If Maria can't heal, it kind of puts a damper on it... Had hoped for a full healing team. Okay, revising the revised revision then.
Blue (4) (YES I WENT THERE) DAMAGE AND BLUELIKE.
Alicia (2) HEALING AND REVIVAL.
Nel Zelpher (3) HEALING, DAMAGE AND STATUSES.
Rena (1) HEALING, BUFFS, REVIVALLLLL! sadly no damage but you can't have everything
Mia (1) SPELLS, MORE SPELLS AND SUPER BUFFS!
Sticking to the frail theme, but now with more win. Blue's harem just increased. 8D
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Forget when Rena gets her revival but Alicia doesn't get Invoke Feather till L40. Granted it probably doesn't matter since you have BLUE in your team which I somehow managed to miss before >.>
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... I just realized Rena's revival isn't until level 60.
That's... that's no revival at the first floors, and I seem to remember level 40 being... mid-game for VP2?
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Probably.
Early revival's hard to come by, honestly.
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I'd peg Alicia's as floor 4 or 5 myself.
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Probably.
Early revival's hard to come by, honestly.
He could take Rosa! It'd require dropping Rena though.
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It's just that Rena's actually got respectable durability, some sort, for a Healer. Guess I ought drop her for Rosa, then, to get that early-game revival for where it's necessary...
It's not like Rosa's durability is terrible.
... is it?
Oh, hers is actually good, but I'd need 3 points for it... so no Nel. Hm...
How high is Nel respect around here? I remember her as being pretty damn good at everything she does but interpretation might change things around. So aiming for at least floor 5 team here.
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Personally? I have high Nel respect but my Maria and Peppita respect is higher. In general though Nel seems to have the most respect of any SO3 character around here.
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I guess this team should be good enough then. Blue brings the offensive, Nel can aid with the offense or Healing, Rena can Heal, Mia can lay magical smackdown... down and Alicia can solo the entire Heal process when needed with her 80% Heal, or otherwise try to trigger off her Nibelung Valesti against enemies.
If I get to Floor 5 I'll be happy enough. Not sure just how high Blue respect is, and whether or not it'll push him as high as that, since the team's offensive could use some work. Not to mention how most of these are either frail or averagely durable, and Revival is gained pretty late? Mia is SO biting the dust somewhere into the dungeon... or at least, until she gets Wind Cane she'll be dead weight. GET IT? DEAD WEIGHT. Ohohohohho. Mia post-Wind Cane rocks, of course, on virtue of beating everyone's speed besides... Nash's? And Nash is a freaking speed demon. Also Flameria damage is pretty sexy MT, especially against people weak to Flame... but that's pretty one-sided. Huh.
Hm, I recall Mia not getting OHKO'd that much in Lunar, though, but I expect the Dungeon will see her OHKO'd a lot... Urgh.
Hmmm... maybe Mime'd work, but would only work really well if he went after Blue to Mime Blue's attacks. It's like having two Blue's! ... but does he beat Alicia, Nel or Rena's speeds?
Oh, screw it. I'd rather have Mime copy Alicia's Healing, Nel's attacks or Rena's buffs (or Blue's attacks <3<3<3) than that I see Mia get OHKO'd on the first round of every dungeon.
REVISION OF THE REVISED REVISION OF THE REVISION
Blue (4) (YES I WENT THERE) DAMAGE AND BLUELIKE.
Alicia (2) HEALING AND REVIVAL.
Nel Zelpher (3) HEALING, DAMAGE AND STATUSES.
Rena (1) HEALING, BUFFS, REVIVALLLLL! sadly no damage but you can't have everything
Mime (1) ALL OF THE ABOVE!
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That team is so toast on floor 3. Blue's damage and stats start tailing off at that point, you have no revival and the entire team is right around average speed. Oh yeah, Rena's healing is never full and neither is Nel's as far as I know. I don't see any way to buff speed or defense to any notable degree (SO2 buffs are ST and not all that good in this format).
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Nel's healing is absolute garbage for 90% of the game because in the DL we take into account that Nel has use Healing 999 times and thus reaches the 50% MHP mark. Early game I'm surprised if Healing healed more than 25% HP which is barely better than a Blueberry.
Rena's doesn't get good healing until Fairy Light and that was Mid game at best? I dunno, I didn't level grind in SO2 until Energy Nede.
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Healing starts at 35%. If you maxed out Healing, it's 85% healing, not 50%...
Rena's healing tends to hover around the same range thoroughout the game depending on how long it was since she gained the last healing spell.
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Does anyone see any problems that my team would run into on the early floors. It's Blue, Relm with Shiva, Shoat, and Phoenix, Zozma, FF1 Monk, and FFT White Mage. I know that most of the team sucks early on, but I know that most of the early floors have difficulty countering Zozma.
Edit: Swapped Priest for Rena.
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Let's see. Neph, is OverDrive limited to once per floor with Blue?
Team Dude vs. Rufus and Reno- Blue starts off with fairly good damage.
Team dude vs. Shuckle, Fred (S3) and Cecil- Cecil immunes Sharp Pain but can't do much with it.
Team Dude vs. Alice and FFT Priest- Sharp pain does no good, but Vermillon Sands should own at this point.
Team Dude vs. Solt, Peppor, Alenia, Zahhak and Miluda
Team Dude vs. Lundgren, Zalmo1 and Baigan- Interesting. Baigan needs to reflect Lundgren or else Implode gets him. Priest is probably using Shell on Blue to prevent a OHKO from Lundgren, who.. probably just up and OHKOs Blue, who is really awful even from the start against physicals. I don't have time for a full breakdown but you should have a good fight, probably winning. Monk having the flexability to either go for Chakra or Counter by the end of the floor lets you play around with strategy a good deal here. You seriously need to take Lundgren out fast, and good luck with that.
Team Dude advantages: Priest/Monk can revive very early, all but Zozma can heal and revive eventually, you have a lot of status and even are packing some MP restoration. Sharp Pain's good for covering up just how bad Relm is early on.
Team Dude disadvantages: You're pretty frail overall and your direct damage is lacking. Not much in the way of buffs either.
I love this build personally. It's easy to vote on, should never have a cakewalk one way or the other and you've balanced it well without speed whoring. You're probably not going to get past floor 7 just due to shitty durablity, but Phoenix really makes things interesting. I'd say use the team and see what happens. I'd be happy to give advice on which pathsplit to take as well for you (Stay far, far away from the MT floor) or anyone else.
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Hm, you're right. I do lack something in my team and I cannot quite feel happy about it either. Drop my team for now, until I at least think this through properly and find something that makes me feel more comfortable.
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Super: Yes, Blue is limited to Overdrive just like Timelord.
Also, Bardiche's team does have revival by Floor 2 via Blue with Light Magic, right?
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super, it's FF1 Monk, not FFT Monk.
He doesn't get Chakra/Revive/Counter, unless they did a FFT1 game or something.
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Another for-fun team that I'm considering while still trying to assign the remaining 5 points to the other, more seriously-considered team...
Virginia(WA3, w/Mediums): 4.0
Billy(XG): 3.0
Jane(ACF): 2.0
Jude(WA4): 2.0
(Alternatively, replace Jude with Maria.)
Yes. Everyone has guns. So what of it? Mind, it'll probably explode by the end of Floor 2 anyway.
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I love this build personally. It's easy to vote on, should never have a cakewalk one way or the other and you've balanced it well without speed whoring. You're probably not going to get past floor 7 just due to shitty durablity, but Phoenix really makes things interesting. I'd say use the team and see what happens. I'd be happy to give advice on which pathsplit to take as well for you (Stay far, far away from the MT floor) or anyone else.
You think so? I thought the MT floor would actually be the easier of the two because Zozma really shines. He still has sharp pain and I think that MT glass shield and charm could be brutal. MT glass shield and Psychic prison shut down almost any form of offense.
Edit: Super, Baigain can only use reflect as a counter to magic.
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Hm, you're right. I do lack something in my team and I cannot quite feel happy about it either. Drop my team for now, until I at least think this through properly and find something that makes me feel more comfortable.
Decide what PC and style you want to build the team around, and work from there. Do you want to go physical based? Magic? How many revivers? Defensive or not? Buffs or not?
If you're building around say Blue, you need PC's who are good in the midgame when Blue starts tailing off and plenty of speedsters. OverDrive lets you autowin once per floor too, MP restoration is highly recommended for smashing the shit out of things with Tower too.
Neph: Yes, but that also ties down his 4.0 Godlike with doing nonfull revival. Forgot that, but still is a massive problem, Blue's never hard to kill. Tai: My fault. Mmm, makes it tougher than. FFT monk would be nice in the duengon for a 1.5~. Does everything just well enough to make it worthwhile.
Dude: PC Glass Shield is near worthless on damage and is countered by one physical. Sharp Pain does nothing for the FFT fight and you have no one else fast enough to really threaten there. Do not take that floor unless you are quick and have good team durability, which you don't. The ST floor punishes you far less for said durability problems. And with your good revival, it'll be awfully hard for you to get knocked out. Charm is a point, but it's also Saga status so good luck with that being reliable.
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Super: Sharp Pain doing nothing? I may not be clear on equivalencies, but I don't remember FFT or FF4 having a proper "Stun" status in the style of Saga. What equipment would prevent that? Because if so, I might be considering a change in my serious team idea...
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Nama: Hold/Don't act, but yeah. It's just an example, really not the topic for an in depth debate on that. Oh yeah: Short FAQ from me at team building. Built this team entirely on the fly.
Team building: I'm going to use an idea I pushed forward with to show you how to best build duengon teams. You start with any one character you want to be the centerpiece. Always pick characters you know well, and doubly so for the centerpiece. L2 I know backwards and forwards after the stat topic, so it fits for me.
Maxim with spells. He's pretty average on AGI/durablity for most of the game, which is eh. The IPs are nice but are a late payoff/a way to get him out of trouble, we aren't counting on these until he has full MT healing. So what does he have early on?
-ST healing
-Average ST damage, weak MT damage
-Some coinflip status
-Plenty of resources
-Eh Mdef
Lategame, he has
-Some status protection, average durablity
-Full MT healing, IPs of horrible death
-Infinite resources in effect
-Revival
-Still average on stats, very bad late in the duengon.
We want Maxim to get as many turns as possible, as he can MT revive/block all damage with his IPs. I'm going to pick XF's Scared Slayer for this.
Sacred Slayer
-Healing
-Incredible MDef/status protection
-Turn Shift, which lets Maxim/SS trade turns
-Resource issues
-Not much damage
Sacred Slayer's below average but not horrid speed fits perfectly here. She'll go right after Maxim and give him a second turn- meaning he can bust out the MT healing with one attack then revive/attack/smash with IPs with his second. It maximizes Maxim's best traits (Skillset) and covers his weakness (stats).
What's this team missing at this point? Speed, revival, offense, and status in that order. What's the best way to approach this? We could go for a twink build in say buffing, but for the purposes of this I'm going to use a balanced setup. Crono just happens to fit the needs given.
3.5+2.5+2 (3 left)
Crono
-It's Crono, you know he's a speed demon
-Best damage is MT
-Has revival
-Good defense/stats in general
-ST damage is never great
-MP issues
Crono gives a second reviver and plenty of fast MT damage. Sacred Slayer's turn shift works well here too, as Crono's own speed will mean she gets her next turn much faster. Mmm. You're still missing damage at this point, and you have three points left. The team also starts off fairly weakly. Let's go with Crowley, who is strong out of the gate.
Crowley
-Smashes the earlygame, period. His damage is obscene.
-Not slow like most Suiko mages.Will always have offense.
-Shining Wind is Shining Wind, this wins.
-Defense is Suikotastic.
What do we have so far? A defensive team with one speedster. We have 1.5 points left. Juan would be nice but doesn't fit. At this point I think it's best to add some more speed and healing, so let's match our Maxim theme and use:
Tia
-Fast the entire game. She gets a nasty skillset later on, and has good damage. The buffs really help.
-Her IPs aren't as good as Maxim's, but they're effective enough.
-Her durablity is awful and never gets better.
Let's look at the team.
Maxim
Crowley
Crono
Tia
Sacred Slayer
Good: Three revivers around floor 3, four healers, Crono/Tia are fast, no real resource issues, plenty of dangerous limits/buffs.
Bad: Maxim/Tia both start slow, revival takes a bit to get, the centerpiece of the team is a bit slow. Weak on physical damage as well.
Basically, just build your team around one theme and make it work. Uno's team was one of the best in the duengon and it largely ignored magic for the physical beatdown chain from HELL. Other teams have won with buffing/defensive skills. Build a team that works well together and make sure you know the fighters!
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I will say that super's method closely resembles the one I use, though I have slight issues remembering some earlygame performances. The team was built around, oddly enough, Crowley. >_>
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Hn. Well, I guess that shows what games I should (FF1, FF4, FF6, FF7, FFT, WA3, WA4, PS4, XG, VP2, L2, SH, SH2, BoF1, BoF2, CT, SO3, SD3, S3, ShF...) and shouldn't(everything else until I play it through completely...where's a PSP when you need one?) bother with, then.
Uh, thanks for narrowing down my team selection with that guide?
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White Rose (2.0)
Songstress (2.5)
Ephraim (2.5)
Lyndis (2.5)
Crowley (1.5)
... Yep.
White Rose cozies up with Heal, Songstress kills accuracy (and, later on, shuts out magic), Ephraim and Lyndis bring pain to heavy defense bastards with Reginleif and Mani Katti, Crowley does his Wind thing to help out with the magic offensive.
... A-yep. I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.
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What type of team are you trying to build? What kind of central theme? I can help with that some. (Neph asked me to do a build with Purim/not so used characters after my Maxim post, I'd be happy to do others).
Nama: Sacred Slayer is straightforward, so use her if she fits. But you generally need to know what you're using or you could be missing something critical.
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What kind of team? Mostly, Songstress is there to Blind/Silence as the situation calls for while Ephraim, Crowley and Lyndis all are pretty heavy hitters. Supposing people'll take the real TANK sorts as being vulnerable to Reginleif and Mani Katti I'll have an easy time with everything, and otherwise I just need to have the both of them utilize their (relatively) high critical rates to OHKO most enemies... I think.
White Rose's there because she's supposed to have good defenses at first, which ought be enough to carry the team through until Crowley gets more charges and Songstress gets her better Dances. Also, I hear her Mag Defense is still pretty decent, so Blind Dance ought save the day, right? ... right?
I want a team that hits hard enough to seal the deal fairly easily, and can stand to suffer some damage in return. Most these characters should be above-average speeds, with Songstress being the only really frail one. (and Lyndis cries against ITE attacks)
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My concern is that the entire team floats around average speed and you only have one reviver. Not much healing or status curing either. If you want a physical heavy team, you need it to be quick as well. That's why Cid's worth the 3.5 in spite of the slow start.
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I have (had?) issues with Purim at her current placement since her main selling point benefits the slow, and boosting speed doesn't help her casting time so if you see SoM casting speed as average, um.
(I recall the SoM interp issue being along this line, anyway. I see her as decently above average, if only because my respect for Randi speed doesn't exist all too much at this point.)
She's not bad, don't get me wrong, but I've not been inclined to make a team with her in it for a while, despite my fanboyism, because the dungeon was rather quickdraw for a while and her skills really are more of a stall set. The dungeon does appear to be undergoing a shift toward making stall games viable as well, though, which is fairly cool.
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Yay Killey! <(^^)>
Nel's said crappy healing still helped to keep Uno's team a float aiding Garnet who unlike Eiko doesn't start with Cura and thus has relatively poor healing for the first few floors ;p
Nice to see people giving advice and information and trying to help each other out with teams <(^^)>
Though ... Look what happened to my team when I took the ST floor over the MT *shakes fist*!
;p
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Just a note on FF5 Chemist: The Potion+Potion mixture is just called "Potion", but it actually heals 90 HP instead of the usual 50; this is before their innate Medicine ability doubles all numbers. X-Potion+X-Potion similarly yields 900 HP instead of the usual 500, although this is pointless as the X-Potion mix is already available for full HP healing.
Also, Resist Fire is Ether+Eyedrop, so it needs to be pushed back to all the other Ether mixes. Although floor 4 for Lix seems kinda late, you can go there as soon as you get the Black Chocobo in W1... eh.
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Virginia(WA3, w/Mediums): 4.0
Billy(XG): 3.0
Jane(ACF): 2.0
Jude(WA4): 2.0
(Alternatively, replace Jude with Maria.)
Virginia is awesme and gave a solid performance of her awesmeness in Snow's team. I don't know Billy (only VSM >.>) Jane doesn't seem to garner any respect before floor 3 or 4 and Jude is also awesme. Then again so is Maria.
Jude:
Pros -
*Great damage with Assault Buster
*Can do all sorts of snazzy things with Mystic ... providing he gets the FP ...
*FAST! That's important.
*Has a self buffing skill in Ley Line which might be interesting in the dungeon seeing as it does different things depending on what colour of hex he's standing on. If the voter allows the elemental hexes then Jude's Ley Line could influence how they vote i.e I think one version improves speed which in turn would boost Assault Buster's damage, etc.
*Good HP
*Good PDur
Cons -
* Damage isn't all that great outside of Assault Buster and Assault Buster respect varies
* Buffs are only ST normally ... I think?
* Cries to magic oh so hard
Maria:
Pros -
*Offense from hell
*Status - SO3 chaos is evil and Aiming Device w/th chaos comes early
* Support spells - Targetable not just restricted to self. I have a lot of respect for Power Up and Protection which is either +50% to ATK or DEF. Power Up comes only second to Power Dance to me in terms of SO buffers. For SO3 I judge characters with their unique/innate skills before IC~ Disc one twinking w/th Maria and Power Up is good. Mmmm.
*MP damage? DL in general seems to respect that for some reason .... and Maria's is good.
Cons -
* Low HP
* Low DEF
* Slow as molasses unless the voter takes ARPG speed as average.
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Virginia gets mediums, yes. Mediums allow for an impressive set of spells (including Floor 1 revive, despite being just ST) However:
Jane doesn't get any respect before Floor 3/4 for a reason. Follow Me apparently comes in around then. This allows her to give turns to other people (Sort of a selectable Turn Shift). Aside from that, she...doesn't have much at all in anything, Dungeon-wise, aside from speed.
Billy has solid power (and can deal magical damage indefinitely thanks to his Ether guns), alongside awesome MT healing (that he starts with) and Xenogears haste (that he also starts with). He also gets revival later on. However, he is slow before the haste. And frail.
Jude...well, he's fast, and his abilities aren't too bad. However, they're relatively expensive for what they do, and he doesn't benefit so much in a non-HEX format. To boot, his signature abilities (Assault Buster, Silver Launcher) come in around Floors 6-7, as do the Howling Spike abilities. He also ends up totally blowing against magic.
[EDIT] The stat boosts from Ley Boost last for very little time. The only one that people consider is his MP recovery, which is just plain SLOW, though viable during totally locked-down fights. Leypoints are often not considered aside from, arguably, Arnaud's Jump FA.
And just like in-game, he doesn't get the two skills of Kresnik's that actually mean something. God knows he'd be even nastier if he had Adrenaline Rush and Healing Factor.
There's no real synergy to this team (Aside from Follow Me possibly compensating for Billy's poor speed). It's a joke team of sorts, but that's about it.
I'm likely to, once school starts to die down (amazingly, cranked out a quality paper at 4 AM), actually try to formulate a team using the guide. It'll probably still crash around Floor 2 or Floor 3.
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Here are some official changes going in.
Dropping:
Purim to 3.0
Ryu4 to 3.0
Nate to 2.5
Rufus to 2.5
FF5 Mystic Knight to 2.0
Lyn to 2.0
Max to 2.0
Rose to 2.0
Beowulf to 1.5
Bow to 1.5
Lucca to 1.5
Marle to 1.5
Jean (BoF2) 1.0
Larsa to .5
Rena to .5
Removing:
Killey (Being replace with Miakis)
Lyon
Prince Falenas
Quina
Rydia
Strago
Zemeckis
Adding:
Borya (Brey) 1.0
Yukari (Persona 3) 1.0
FFT Monk 1.5
Aigis (Persona 3) 2.0
Kiryl (Cristo) 2.0
Mitsuru (Persona 3) 2.0
Tear Grants (ToTA)
Luneth (3.0)
Maya Amano (P2) 3.0
PC Fou-lu (4.0)
This means if you have anyone who is of the old ranks, please fix them, and if you have people in your current teams that are being removed, please also remove them, otherwise I'll have to consider your team invalid. I will be updating the main post soon with this new information.
Also some additions in the future will be Red XIII with Enemy Skill Materia and probably Ershin with Masters and Scias with Masters.
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So no mass KILLEY hype. Nephrite(nee), you disappoint me~
Aeonless Yuna (3.5)
Mitsuru (2)
Hiro (3)
Palom (2)
FFT Priest (0.5)
It isn't as awesome if it's Miakis, everyone hypes her already. Besides I don't know S5 very well.
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You could just change Killey to Miakis and be fine, you know!
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Default Miakis definitely doesn't seem worth a 4.0 but eh maybe that's just me~ Shield Rune alone doesn't make her worth that.
*nods @ Nama's post* Eh maybe I'm just too geared towards positive/optimistic thinking sometimes because most of that team doesn't actually look too bad to me o_o Virginia, Jude, Maria and Billy all look good v_v
I'm likely to, once school starts to die down (amazingly, cranked out a quality paper at 4 AM),
Haha awesme~
[actually try to formulate a team using the guide. It'll probably still crash around Floor 2 or Floor 3.
Good luck!
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Default Miakis definitely doesn't seem worth a 4.0 but eh maybe that's just me~ Shield Rune alone doesn't make her worth that.
He means Miakis with full rune twinkability.
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Then that is evil yes. Very, very evil *nodnods*
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Maxim (3.5)
Songstress (2.5)
Tidus (3.0)
Crowley (1.5)
FFT Priest (0.5)
Okay, okay. I think I've finally got a good team down now.
Maxim starts out with healing, Songstress starts out AWESOMELY, Tidus starts out with Haste, Crowley's got Shreddings and FFT Priest is uh... backup reviver. yeah idk.
If I revise again after this, please look me up and beat me down.
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You change Killey to Miakis, but then take away Lyon and Prince? How evil! There goes my dreams of a Unite Attack with a 4.0 character...
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Lyon and Freyjadour were picked like never, and I don't think unites are worth the trouble there anyway. It's just flavor, particularly considering their unites are ST.
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Well.. -I- had picked Freyjadour...
Anyway, new team setup now.
Miakis (4.0)
Arc (3.0)
White Rose (2.0)
Lyn (2.0)
Mostly a physical-beatdown based team with Lyn and Arc, while Miakis fills in the gaps with ever-changing runes. Originally used Cecelia for this, but Miakis is a bit more durable overall. White Rose is a durable healer with Revival out of the box, and is mostly there to cover up any early Miakis/Lyn problems. Mostly chose these guys based on their synergistic timing. Arc and White Rose start out really good, but by the time they start to wane, Lyn and Miakis should be in full swing. Also, extra healing and Invincible never quite lose their usefulness. And if you allow White Rose to be absorbing monsters along the way, she should keep up with magical damage if necessary.
Originally had a 'royalty' theme going on, but since I switched Cece for Miakis, I'm tempted to call it something like Team "Save the Queen"... eh, Team Djinn will work just fine.
EDIT: What happened to the Rune guidelines for Killey? Are Miakis' somehow different?
-Djinn
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Well.. -I- had picked Freyjadour...
Anyway, new team setup now.
Miakis (4.0)
Arc (3.0)
White Rose (2.0)
Lyn (2.0)
Mostly a physical-beatdown based team with Lyn and Arc, while Miakis fills in the gaps with ever-changing runes. Originally used Cecelia for this, but Miakis is a bit more durable overall. White Rose is a durable healer with Revival out of the box, and is mostly there to cover up any early Miakis/Lyn problems. Mostly chose these guys based on their synergistic timing. Arc and White Rose start out really good, but by the time they start to wane, Lyn and Miakis should be in full swing. Also, extra healing and Invincible never quite lose their usefulness. And if you allow White Rose to be absorbing monsters along the way, she should keep up with magical damage if necessary.
Originally had a 'royalty' theme going on, but since I switched Cece for Miakis, I'm tempted to call it something like Team "Save the Queen"... eh, Team Djinn will work just fine.
EDIT: What happened to the Rune guidelines for Killey? Are Miakis' somehow different?
-Djinn
Miakis' will be very different, she also has skill setup options. I'm going to work with Excal on that one, you should see something soon. :)
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Out of curiosity, if I were to, say, drop Lyn in favor of Rennac (for an extra point to play around with), would I be able to pick Nina3 (.5) and Nall (.5) for my party?
Since Nall doesn't actually take up a party slot in Lunar1, I thought it might be possible to have a total of 6 bodies if one of them were Nall.
That would make the party look something like:
Miakis (4.0)
Arc (3.0)
White Rose (2.0)
Rennac (1.0)
Nina3 (.5)
and then the extra Nall (.5)
Since Nall's uses are extremely limited, I thought that one of his benefits might be that he wouldn't count against the party size limit?
I'm not sure I'd do this, yet, but it's something that I'd consider if possible.
-Djinn
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That... is something I'd have to think about!
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I'd allow it, but I'm weird like that.
Put another way, it's kinda like L:SSSC that way; five people plus Nall, so clearly Nall can survive as a Sixth Column. >_>
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Jude
Arnaud
Yulie
Raquel
Let's see how this does. It'll be fun.
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Anyway, team setup debated and ultimately decided in chat. Probably still won't make it past Floor 3, but I can hope.
Maybe.
Anyway:
Rune[PS4](3.0)
Geddoe[S3](3.0)
Kyra[PS4](2.0)
Selan[L2](2.0)
Mime[FF5](1.0)
...Well, there's MT everywhere. And lots of it at that. Mime pitches in where convenient, perhaps.
...that's all I can think of. Hoping it does well. ^^;
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Take 3, with take 2 having been discarded as cool but unlikely to work, using 4 characters whose costs have dropped somewhat recently.
3.5 Jessica
3 Purim
2 Lyn
2 Garnet
.5 Rena
I don't think anybody's tried to use DQ8 Jessica yet... considering that Rika is in general a lot better for only half a point more (ID! Evade boosting with the agility boost! Speed debuffs! Team healing that's good and you can get before Floor 7!). But Rika needs to die, so Jessica it is. She's got her own things that Rika doesn't have, at least, like damage, attack buffs, and (late) full revival. Also, if you allow Accelerate to if nothing else break ties on the first turn between average speed people, she can hopefully speed up Purim to get the statusy drop on avg. speed opponents. Failing that: For boss battles, Oomph Lyn, watch blood fly. Garnet is the healer who actually gets her revival spells remotely on time, hopefully getting through the earlier floors and providing mage backup on later floors. Also: 4 Revivers on floor 6?!? (Still won't help against some of the mass-status effects late in the Dungeon.)
...well, that's the plan, at least.
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Throwing this up so I don't forget it whenever my current team dies.
Kyogre (3.5)
Maya (3.0)
Cristo (2.0)
Pikachu (1.5)
Raja (1.0)
Oddly synergy-based. Three revivers (Cristo's a bit late), everyone but Kyogre gets buffs, Pikachu has pretty fast/accurate ST status and MT Attack/Defense down, Cristo gets healing/MT defense up, Raja gets healing/MT defense up/Fire weakness close to nulled by Kyogre, Maya gets deceptively brutal ST damage early and nasty as hell MT damage floor 3 with Maia Custom. Physicals get toned down by Cristo/Pikachu/Raja, helping Maya and Pikachu's durability, and magic damage is something Maya laughs off and Light Screen makes fairly sad. Maya being status-immune from the get-go with the right Persona helps out.
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Wow, Tai... that's a REALLY awesome team overall... I'm having trouble finding holes in it. It's not particularly great against multiple statuses... but Maya can heal most statuses, I believe, so it might just work out. And Kyogre's limited fuel is evened out by Raja'S MP healing...
Yeah, nice team.
I'm a little nervous about my team now, since my turn is coming up and I don't know what kind of Runes Miakis will be able to use yet. Depending on that (and the ruling on Nall), my team's membership isn't even set yet...
-Djinn
EDIT:
team can be blitzed
Ah, good point, it's not exactly what you'd call a -fast- team. Still, if he had a team that was this synergistic AND fast... that'd be broken...
Luckily, a team like that -should- be difficult (or impossible) to create with only 11 points and the choices available.
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Team can be blitzed. It's built damn well though.
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It can be blitzed, yeah, but the enemy needs to be pretty bloody careful to do it - Maya can be a complete ass to get around and Kyogre's durable as hell. The main issues with blitzing will come later on, yeah.
There are two primary issues; one of the healers (Maya) lacks status healing (Yeah. There's one spell in P2 that does this. All of one person has any argument for it in the DL, and that's Ulala.). The other is the durability pre-buffing.
Maya's average speed or higher (good Personas for magic/speed, the men are all slugs, but Ulala breaks averages), Cristo/Pikachu/Kyogre are also above average by varying amounts. Raja's the one slug. Still, yeah, a faster team can manage it. (Slower teams dislike the amount of stat nerfing I can do pretty bloody quick.)
It was mainly built on "Okay, I'm a Persona 2 Maya fanboy. But her damage isn't as impressive as I'd like early on... Well, Kyogre boosts that! Kyogre's drizzle... also nerfs Fire and boosts Lightning accuracy. Wait, not Lightning, just Thunder. ...Pikachu gets Thunder, but I'm pretty sure he sucks in a te- wait, Growl and Tail Whip are MT? And he gets Light Screen? Huh. So those three... Well, I need a good pair with my remaining 3.0, none of the 1.5s look terribly appealing aside from Crowley whom I'm already using... Huh, Cristo get anything aside from healing and Upper? Status? Okay, he works. And... a 1.0. ... Hell, I'm not fond of Raja in the dungeon, but here I can hype DRIZZLE neutralizing his weakness. So um, yeah, he's in I guess."
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My team still stands as Aeonless Yuna, Tidus, Maria, Peppita and Adray.
Shouldn't be too long until I'm in again =)
Djinn - Well the basic elemental orbs come early (Fire, Wind, Water, Earth) so she should be able to access those pretty much straight away. She may just want to stick with Shield though since she's only gonna have one rune slot for a while ... Not sure when I'd peg her second and third slots as coming. Another thing is I don't see revival coming early either since you have to collect four pieces to make a Resurection orb and the one from Eresh doesn't come early either.
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Okay, if it's allowed, I'd like to have my team as:
Miakis (S5, starting with a Shield Rune, I suppose) 4.0
Arc (AtL2) 3.0
White Rose (SaGa) 2.0
Monk (FF1) 1.0
Rena (SO2) 0.5
and the weird one, Nall (Lunar) 0.5
Not sure why Rena is a 0.5 while Tear is a 2.0, but whatever. Aren't they basically the same, except that Tear eventually gets a (questionably respected) invincibility move? I suppose her Pendant and FOF-cancelling might help her be a slightly-better mage, too, in a pinch... but is that really a 1.5-level difference? Even if you hype her Mystic Arte, that's Floor 5 by the time she gets a spell strong enough to activate it...
Need to find out what Floor Miakis picks up a second Rune slot... Battle Oath is only useful on the early floors when it'll hit at least 2 fighters (Rena's still able to cause physical damage, then). After that, there's a pretty decent chance of only Fury-ing my healers...
-Djinn
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Tear has better end game damage and healing and I think has better durability along with the mystic arte.
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Rena has better HP at least. Tear has arguably better status protection, although Rena can get ID. Tear has Holy Song, but Rena has Resurrection and more potent ST buffs (as well as Anti). Does Tear have status healing and revival? Is Tear's somewhat costly damage make her worth that much more? Maybe to some, especially if they respect Nightmare or the Invincibility move.
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With Maxim dropping .5 points, my new team becomes:
Maxim
Songstress
Crowley
Tidus
RAJA
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With the ruling handed down that a Nall who doesn't take up a party slot will cost 1.0 (still seems high for what he does, comparable still to other 0.5s like Rena), I've given up on that idea and I'll just go with my original plan.
Miakis starting with Shield and Fire runes (4.0) I would have preferred a Lightning rune, but the wiki doesn't list it
Arc the Lad himself (3.0) Yay, eventually I'll get Invincible!
White Rose (2.0) All of her healing doubles as Revival! Decently durable healer!
Lyn (2.0) Destroys worlds until I get to the big ITE damage-users.
I -really- wanted to use Nall, but...
Anyway, so now my team is back to The Queen's Knight and her Queens... >.>;;
-Djinn
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...I forgot the Lightning Rune.
Nall's still up in the air, I need to ask around on it. Ha!
Don't despair, my loyal citizen of this great United States of America.
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For the sake of my own sanity, if you have new Dungeon teams, please repost them below this so I can start keeping a tally of everyone's new teams.
Also, I am allowing Sealstones to be added but need to confirm them, so keep your eye out for those. I will edit this post with them tonight.
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Blue 4.0, Relm 3.0, Zozma 2.5, Monk 1.0 Rena .5
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Rune[PS4](3.0)
Geddoe[S3](3.0)
Kyra[PS4](2.0)
Selan[L2](2.0)
Mime[FF5](1.0)
It'll probably explode anyway, but what the hell.
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New team, after I realized the failure of only having one reviver. ;p
FF5 Chemist (3.5)
Worker 8 (2.0)
Sasarai (2.5)
FF5 Red Mage (2.0)
FF1 Monk (1.0)
I just wanted to make a team with FF5 Chemist, who's incredibly versatile, with 100% HP + MP revival. I figured that full revival that isn't magical would go well with Worker 8, who just smashes shit really hard. Chemist, Red Mage and Sasarai can all heal/revive. When Chemist and Red Mage aren't healing, they're buffing and statusing. Worker 8 and Monk hit things hard, while Sasarai pitches in with destructively powerful TER magic. If I can make it past floor 4, I'll be satisfied. ;p
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That looks decently solid, yeah. Speed issues (Sasarai's weaker stuff my be the fastest thing you have, Worker 8/FF5 Chem/FF5 Red are all below average speed (though Chem only by a little).), but a rather good stall team, yeah.
And for Nama's team... high MT damage output (that's decently fast?), I don't remember what Selan starts with but she should have Drowsy and healing, which'll help... ...Only two revivers (assuming Selan has it), but that's fine, the team's not really so focused on that.
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Selan starts off with her DL magic, which is eh. She gets better stuff on floor 2/3. His team's quick and has a MT focus, so it should be okay.
Not at all impressed with Piggy's team. It has a lot of MT which is nice, but the revivers are all slow and frail. Can't do much about statu seither.
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Selan starts off with her DL magic, which is eh. She gets better stuff on floor 2/3. His team's quick and has a MT focus, so it should be okay.
Not at all impressed with Piggy's team. It has a lot of MT which is nice, but the revivers are all slow and frail. Can't do much about statu seither.
I'll admit my team's got speed issues, but I don't see status as being a threat. Worker 8 outright IMMUNES status, Sasarai has an MT Esuna that's disturbingly fast (26 charge is pretty damn fast), and Chemist can heal almost any status Floor 1. My team's got enough resources to last through the first few floors, atleast I'd like to think, and Chemist gains Haste Floor 3 (although I'm not being overly dependant on that).
As for frail, Chemist's HP is only 26 points (insignificant) under the average, and he's only 2 points under the average for speed. He's not a speedster or a wall, but he can hold his own. Red Mage, on the other hand, is quite significantly frailer than Chemist, but trades in for a bit of speed (granted, not much, just enough to hit the average).
I might have to make a small change to have a bit more speed, but I don't see my team currently as THAT unimpressive. Like Tai said, it's more of a stall team than a sweep team. ;p
And my apologies in advance, I just felt the need to rebuttal my team in defense. Your opinion is your own, and I totally accept your criticism. ;p
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Hmm... I want to try something that's not speed-based. So I'm gonna try a defensive team with back-loaded damage.
Cloud (4.0)
Raquel (3.0)
Yulie (2.0)
Aika (2.0)
Raquel and Yulie are incredibly slow, while Cloud is middling. Aika is quick, but she's not my damage-dealer. She can handle some MT Magic damage early on, I suppose. Basically, she's there for Delta Shield all the time as soon as she can do that (Floor 3? 4?) She should get it by 3 at the latest, though she might be able to cast it every other turn on Floor 2 if she gets it there. Delta Shield will handle any of that pesky status, and help keep Yulie alive. Also, if Dungeon-Aika can actually learn magic, then she can act as a secondary healer or as an ID status-whore. Not sure if she gets any magic, though. Yulie's mostly there for the FP boost so that Raquel can Intrude things to death. Cloud's materia to fill in the holes - Cover for early protection until Delta Shield shows up, and maybe give him Status and back-up Healing/Reviving. I really wanted Nall too... but the points don't allow it.
My biggest concern is getting the team past Floor 2 again...
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Selan starts off with her DL magic, which is eh. She gets better stuff on floor 2/3. His team's quick and has a MT focus, so it should be okay.
Not at all impressed with Piggy's team. It has a lot of MT which is nice, but the revivers are all slow and frail. Can't do much about statu seither.
I'll admit my team's got speed issues, but I don't see status as being a threat. Worker 8 outright IMMUNES status, Sasarai has an MT Esuna that's disturbingly fast (26 charge is pretty damn fast), and Chemist can heal almost any status Floor 1. My team's got enough resources to last through the first few floors, atleast I'd like to think, and Chemist gains Haste Floor 3 (although I'm not being overly dependant on that).
As for frail, Chemist's HP is only 26 points (insignificant) under the average, and he's only 2 points under the average for speed. He's not a speedster or a wall, but he can hold his own. Red Mage, on the other hand, is quite significantly frailer than Chemist, but trades in for a bit of speed (granted, not much, just enough to hit the average).
I might have to make a small change to have a bit more speed, but I don't see my team currently as THAT unimpressive. Like Tai said, it's more of a stall team than a sweep team. ;p
And my apologies in advance, I just felt the need to rebuttal my team in defense. Your opinion is your own, and I totally accept your criticism. ;p
*Nods* No, it's fine. Defending your team and defining what it does can only help you. When does it get ti's revival? Can it handle MT attacks? Sas is frail and Worker doesn't play well in a team setting.
Djinn: Aika learns Green magic in the DL regardless and the ID is like 18 SP. Cloud you're going to want to build for support. Cover or healing early on isn't a bad idea. No idea how that team will work in practice, but it starts awfully slow.
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Djinn: Aika learns Green magic in the DL regardless and the ID is like 18 SP. Cloud you're going to want to build for support. Cover or healing early on isn't a bad idea. No idea how that team will work in practice, but it starts awfully slow.
Do you think Raquel/Yulie's double Forceskill MP healing will work on Aika's SoA SP?
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*Nods* No, it's fine. Defending your team and defining what it does can only help you. When does it get ti's revival? Can it handle MT attacks? Sas is frail and Worker doesn't play well in a team setting.
Chemist starts with 100% HP + MP revival that's not magical, so, true, Worker 8 doesn't work well in a team setting, but atleast I can bring him back to life, which'll do me some good, especially considering how much he'll be hurting himself off Compress and Crush. Sas' revival is his level 4 charge for the Flowing Rune, so admittedly, that's to be used in a worst case scenario. He's got S3 Silent Lake, though, and quite a few charges of it, so that's a big lol to any magic-based teams. Kindness Rain for full MT healing (minus Worker 8), too, in case MT attacks become too much of a hassle. Now, if only he was faster, because I realize that my team is becoming rather dependant on Sas. ;o
Red Mage gains Life with Red3, so I'd call that Floor 3, about? Until then, he'll enjoy flinging crippling status like Mute, Sleep and Toad. And looking over, he's got Safe, if anyone really needs that boost in defense (halves all physical damage).
Oh yeah, and FF1 Monk... hits shit? Haha, he was my last 1 point pick, and I figured I could use some more manpower that wasn't slow as shit. ;p
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Assuming that FF5/FFT characters follow the same rules as Bartz/Ramza, Red Mage maxes his job floor 1 by Dungeon rules. Even if this isn't the case he still gets life floor 2 (Karnak). Thus he technically gets double-cast Life floor 2, maybe a bit later if you hold the single jobs to different rules than Bartz/Ramza.
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I think Bartz/Ramza are just treated that way for convenience? Because based on in-game, there's no way in hell Red Mage gets Doublecast by the point in the game Floor 2 corresponds to (Karnak or so). More like floor 5? Other than that, RM does have his entire skillset by Floor 2, though.
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I may make a modification to RM to state he gets Doublecast by 4 or 5. I'd say that any of the other Generics get all their skills that are relevant by the end of Floor 1. (Well, in most cases... Chemist only needs a few skills.)
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Do you think Raquel/Yulie's double Forceskill MP healing will work on Aika's SoA SP?
...what?
No.
1) SoA SP is much like WA4 FP mechanically.
2) SoA HAS MP.
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Think generics should get their skills like they do in-game, honestly. Just assuming the character is always in that class, so it's faster than what you'd get in-game due to class switching.
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I may make a modification to RM to state he gets Doublecast by 4 or 5. I'd say that any of the other Generics get all their skills that are relevant by the end of Floor 1. (Well, in most cases... Chemist only needs a few skills.)
RM's hardly the only one who wouldn't reasonably get a skill by floor 2, though. I'm not sure offhand how many are relevant, but things like Monk's HP+30% or Samurai's Slash certainly take more than a floor to master; you're not getting them in World 1 unless you stop to grind off Skull Eaters or Prototypes or something and we don't consider that. I think it's okay to fudge things a bit for Bartz/Ramza because it's simpler (I guess), but that excuse doesn't really fly with a generic.
Chemist is more about item availability than JP-earned skills, of course.
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If Karnak is floor two, than Drain Kiss and company should be moved up there from floor three for Chemist. At that time, it's ~1000 damage, which should easily be OHKO range.
Also, Potion+Potion mixture is actually a unique ability that heals 90 HP base (180 with innate Medicine) as opposed to the 50 for just using a potion; the line about not having healing in the wiki topic is thus inaccurate. There are also similar mixes for Ether+Ether and HiPotion+HiPotion, but superior mixes obsolete them both.
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I'd like to re-enter with my old team, if possible.
Tir McDohl (4.0)
Riou (3.0)
Lilka (2.0)
SH2 Lucia (1.0)
Mint (1.0)
Tally comes out to 11 points, if I did my math right.
Since I was the last one to try this team, it should be fine, right?
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A messed up idea: curious for some feedback.
PC Fou Lu 4.0
T.G. Cid 3.5
Robo 1.5
Nall 1
FF5 Mime 1
Totals 11.
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Your only source of revival is Nall? That strikes me as scary, but for a team meant for blitzing, it just might work. Sure you'll lose a few people per battle, but they'll be back. Unfortunately, they'll be OHKObait for the rest of the floor.
Still, Fou-lu and Cid damage is getting Mimed. If it gets passed floor 2, it'll probably last until Floor 6 at least.
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It seems like you either want dual revival or a durable reviver who isn't an easy pick-off. Both are a huge cost. As a contrast, everyone but Mime has a measure of self Repair- Fou Lu's dragons are on separate life bars, Cid has Night Sword, and Robo has healing. The general idea being the weaker targets can't be ignored, because they have potential to be dangerous if ignored- conversely, the big targets are far from frail.
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The main problems I see are PC Fou-lu being a little box of nightmares and the low-end members being... actually too easy to bludgeon down. This team would be more effective if it had more multitarget clock-cleaning powers off the cuff, since Orlandu doesn't get omgwtf damage and speed until floor 6, and Fou takes a turn to get going. FF5 Mime is cute, but Night Sword off Mime stats won't really be too impressive, and the whole thing lacks versatility.
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Eh, Fou physicals alone wreck the dungeon until floor 4 or 5 where he begins to need the dragons, is my gut?
Still, gut says floor 5 might grind you down, just due to lack of solid healing.
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Interesting. Thanks for the feedback, everybody. I honestly think Robo is one of the most underpriced characters- Good durability, healing, MT damage of multiple elements, and once he gets Crisis Arm becomes a potential heavy damage dealer based on being able to be healed back up to 999 HP before his turn for L9 Uzi Punch. Some of that synergy is lost here, though.
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The main issue is that he starts pretty slow (well, earlygame I guess he's scaled against Crono/Lucca/Marle, which makes him merely below average?) and the healing isn't too respected. I like him in concept but the general respect seems to be low here?
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His speed is beyond awful until endgame. That sinks Rand, and it likely sinks him too.
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Interesting. Thanks for the feedback, everybody. I honestly think Robo is one of the most underpriced characters- Good durability, healing, MT damage of multiple elements, and once he gets Crisis Arm becomes a potential heavy damage dealer based on being able to be healed back up to 999 HP before his turn for L9 Uzi Punch. Some of that synergy is lost here, though.
Robo's issues stem mostly from the fact that the dungeon isn't nearly as friendly to his high-profile exploits as CT is. And his issues are really damning in the setting while he lacks the pure raw punch to make up for them. While he's a physical tank, the magical durability is all sorts of epic. He gets fried by magic really damned fast. And he sports effin' 6 CT speed until endgame. The healing... it's sorta crap, honestly. Sure, cheap and MT, but 30~% healing off someone that slow just... yeah. You're pretty much right about the offense in the endgame, but until that, he has... crappy healing and middling - if above average - ST damage off Kongoltastic speed, and the plentiful mage-heavy fields in the dungeon roast him into a crisp.
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That said, LIFELINE HYPE!?
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/me punts super.
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Throwing ideas around in light of possible upcoming changes -
Tidus/Yuna/Peppita/Adray/Maria to
Rikku (4.0), Maria (2.0), Peppita (1.5), Meru (0.5), ????
Relm?
Raquel?
...
Edit: Been chatting with super and he brought up Zerase as an option. I think it sounds good!
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If he adds Meru, I'm considering a Rose-Shana-Meru-Garnet-Cloud team with the Full Limit meter Sealstone. Group-transform Dragoon effect hype.
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That'd be great Djinn! Full limit bar sounds good for Rikku on my team too :) Depending on if sealstones do cost posts or not I'm thinking of other fun effects like Firefly + Vantage effect for counter Pep or maybe Life to give Healing Dance MT revival to experiment with. Could be fun :D
GL :)
So I think I'm going with Rikku (4.0), Zerase (3.0), Maria (2.0), Peppita (1.5) and Meru .5 then.
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I can't comment on the SO3ers, but Zerase complements the team well. Definitely a blitzing team, which is cool.
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Thanks super. Yeah it's pretty much a knock them all down before things heat up team, should nuke past the first few floors at least (bwahaha Rikku, Zerase starting strong)
Zerase (blitz, speed), Rikku (speeed, mix tricks, albhed potions), Maria (blitz, back up supports), Peppita (mix of support/status/damage/counters) and Meru (speed, healing/status cure, MT magic damage later on) Speed is good mmmm. I think I have three above average there? Hmm nice.
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Not sure we're allowed to have more than one Sealstone.
Also, the issue with the limit one is later floors may benefit from having the access to multiple limits. This being said, yeah, it looks pretty solid. Gut says at least Zerase/Rikku/Meru are fast and have tricks? How many revivers are there?
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Tai is correct, only one stone is allowed per team.
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Ah thanks for clarifying that then. Yeah. Firefly might be better than Vantage effect for making Peppita the target for physicals then. I know Tai has at least *some* respect for her counters :P
Revivers - Er just Rikku (mix reliant though I think) and that's about it. Or Rikku and Peppita w/th MT Healing Dance if I choose the Life seal stone instead. It would reduce HD's healing by 50% but Rikku also has healing hmm. Oh yeah and Meru has healing too >.> Dunno if Neph will allow Zerase to pick up a Water/Revive Rune later.
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Mmm. Yeah, relying on a limit for revival's bad mojo. I'd need to look at what to do there, Terra might be better than Zerase for what you're looking at?
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Oh, wait, we can have Sealstones now? I'll have to think a bit more, then.
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Sealstones and new options are probably gonna be added once the remaining teams finish their Dungeontrek, I think? So yeah, even my team is pending that development.
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Mmmm ... yeah that's usually my opinion on limit reliant characters too but Rikku had been through the dungeon a couple of times since I last thought of it and doesn't seem to have had any problems - reaps mass respect from voters despite Mix being a limit ...
Taitoro what about Meru w/th Life? She gets Rainbow Breath for MT healing on F2 so with Life that would become MT revival ... (Neph how do the healing skills work if nobody is dead?) Due to her insane speed she'll probably be going before a lot of characters and attacking on F1 (she doubles and even triples a lot in game depending on the speed of what allies are being used) which would build up SP so she should be able to transform already for F2. I'd see Perky Step as about F6/7 for her so she'd probably get Cool Boogie around F3/4? Cool Boogie being her SP move and eventually allowing her to garner more than 100 SP per turn ...
Either that or switch Zerase for Sharanda ... her MT nukage probably isn't as strong as Zerase's to start off with but it's still strong, depends on which attack item is being used I guess ... the speeds still there + added healing/revival.
Hrmmm - Rikku (4.0), Maria (2.0), Peppita (1.5), Meru (0.5), Sharanda (1.5), Nall (doesn't take up a party member slot - 1.0)? :P
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Chris Lightfellow (3)
Raquel Applegate (3)
Ephraim (2.5)
FF1 Knight (2.5)
Chris kills magic with Silent Lake. Raquel hurts everything. Ephraim abuses Reginleif to hit the high-defense guys. FF1 Knight does what he does best.
ULTIMATE TEAM. (what is this thing you call 'MT'?)
PS: Suggestions for physical beat-down teams are welcome~
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Chemist. You want some kind of non-magical healing.
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Chris Lightfellow (3)
Raquel Applegate (3)
Chemist (3)
Worker 8 (2)
I have been informed Chris gets Silent Lake sort of late.
......................
Any other MAGICAL SHUTDOWN alternatives that should push me through until Chris gets to spam Silent Lakes?
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Songstress gets Silence Song kind of early?
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Songstress now costs 3.0 though! I don't know about replacing Chemist with her because that would return Bard to having no early revival/non magical healing.
Dear god @ the speed of your team Bard :(
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... The speed comment slices into me something fierce.
Scrap my team for now, clearly i haven't thought this through completely.
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Teams are tricky beasts!
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That team is uh bad. ST focus with no speed and one reviver till floor 7.
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Possible revamp for my team:
Kyogre, Maya, Cristo, Strago, Raja
This isn't certain yet, I want to see the finished list of changes before I commit. However, earlygame Strago damage gets... 1.25x boost from Drizzle, so that should help? (Aqua Rake being water/wind)
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OFFICIAL SEALSTONE LIST is here. Start making your teams, zomg!
Unless otherwise noted, these affect all combatants, enemy and ally alike. You may also only choose one per team and may not change this throughout the dungeon.
Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, but reduces the final effect of any healing to 50%, regardless of how strong the healing was before. The healing also only revives characters with 1 HP.
Speed? - The effective speed of one character is reversed, but after the first round of combat, their speed returns to default and can not be increased in any way.
Resourceless - Your spells and abilities are now free but you may not use the same ability more than once a fight. This does not apply to moves that drain all resources.
Multitarget - One person on the team's actions all become Multitargetted. However, the damage, healing, chances or stat effects of these effects is reduced by 50%. (For example, Deadly Fingertips has a max 50% chance of hitting all targets.) This applies even if there is only one character.
Violent Burst Law - Characters with system-specific gauges begin the floor with them filled. These gauges do not charge during the floor by any means.
Status Symbol Law - ALLY Team is fully status, debuff and ID immune, but has all their total statistics reduced by 15%.
Love Love: Damage is increased by 50% against same-sex targets and reduced by 50% against different-sex targets. This applies to both enemies and allies.
Elemental Advance Sealstone: Each attack of the same elemental type is used after the last one, it gets a 25% boost. Both sides may take advantage of the same level of damage, but also break the chain with an opposing spell.
Vantage Effect Sealstone: Counter abilities excecute BEFORE the attack that triggers them for all enemies and characters.
Firefly: A chosen member of your party will always be the target of enemy attacks. However, this also bypasses normal immunities (so no Gastly avoiding physicals this way) as well as status or elemental immunities. The character is still the target unless hit by a fatal status. This does persist if the character dies and is brought back to life. However, multitarget moves ignore this effect.
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Does the Elemental Advance Sealstone only apply to elemental attacks?
What if you were to use a green-elemental buff like CC's Eagle Eye? Would the next attack skill of the same element (let's say Leech Seed!) get the 25% boost?
-Djinn
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A sealstone effects enemies and allies? My mind just snapped in half.
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I was wondering about that Djinn, also whether a non elemental buff/healing would break the chain or not~
With Fnorder here =D
So Status Symbol Law applies to entire groups of opponent groups as well? I'm not sure why anybody would want to make their opponents status and debuff immune >_>
**
Team Blitz - Maria, Peppita, Rikku, Nall, Sharanda (can use attack items), Meru (Life)
Tai : Looks good, interesting selection of good characters =)
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How would Firefly interact with Worker8, since he has both Innocent and 0 Faith? would he be considered to have Average Mdef? Or 1 Faith for purposes of damage calculation?
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Elemental Advance only works with elemental attacks. Buffs and debuffs are not considered (since I think that'd be a headache)
The Status Symbol one only affects your team.
If you put Firefly on Worker 8, he would... hm. I'd probably say he loses Innocent and the 0 Faith and just takes damage normally? I'll have to think about that one some more though.
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Sticking with my original team, basically.
3.5 Jessica
3 Purim
2 Lyn (Firefly)
2 Garnet
.5 Rena
Lyn has no elemental resistances or status resistances anyway, so she should be easy to interpret. She's just very dodgy including against magic, and can wear a Protect / Shell from Garnet early, and a Lucid Barrier / Wall from Purim late (abnormal immunities?). Slightly unorthodox since normally you want an indestructible tank like Fogel or Citan as the Firefly... hmm, I'll have to consider upgrading her to Ephraim, though I'm not sure what I'd take out. Ah well, can always edit later.
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Just noticing that Love Love would probably make a healer/mage team of females really effective. People like Raquel and Lyn on the enemy side would be problematic, so you might want to include a Millenia in that set up to disable such threats.
But if you go by the common logic that females=mage/healers and males=heavyhitters, then the all-girl healer/mage team has plenty of time to stall with their healing tactics against most male enemies and they can blitz female opponents with increased magic damage.
Of course, still a generalization, but it's the only logical way to take advantage of the sealstone that I can see. Cool idea.
Still mulling over which Sealstone would fit my team. I -really- like the Violent Burst Law, but I'm not sure how helpful that would be to my current team. Also, how early does Garnet get her ability to Trance?
Out of curiosity, where did you get the names for these sealstones from, Neph? The only one I'm sure of is the Firefly Rune.
-Djinn
EDIT:
My current team is
Cloud
Raquel
Yulie
Aika
Violent Burst Law's description implies that the penalty for starting with a full 'limit meter' is that the meter does not charge for the rest of the floor.
For SoA and WA characters, does this mean that if Raquel uses Intrude, for example, which only takes up 25 of 100FP, that she still has 75FP she can use? Or does using one FP move drain the whole meter? Or does VBL even apply to FP/SoA SP?
-Djinn
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Many people gave me suggestions as names, other ones I just thought were appropriate for what they did.
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Well, I was just curious which ones were from specific games. Like Firefly is from Suikoden series, obviously. And IIRC, Vantage was an FE9 skill?
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Yes, that's right. I think Violent Burst was the name of a VP2 Sealstone. The others are just made up.
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I object to Love-Love not being named Kei's Wrath.
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Djinn: I'd assume that with VBL, you'd have 100 FP that would never restore... though it seems like that would waste Yulie's Force Boost. Why not stick Speed? on Raquel? You'll have 25 FP at the start of every battle and Raquel would be 65% speed = 154% (!!) speed on the first turn with an Intrude to spend every battle. Sure, you can theoretically chain 4 extra turns in one battle with VBL, but it'd be slow and you'd never get more than that (which would also make spending FP on Material more painful).
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Well, with VBL, I was thinking of changing out Yulie for someone like Garnet.
And the whole point of my team was to try a non-speed-reliant team out. It's defense oriented.
Aika's there for battles that require some kind of speedy response. Garnet also gets revival earlier, though once I have Delta Shield, hopefully I won't need it.
-Djinn
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A couple of changes to my team.
Blue (4.0)
Relm (3.0)
Zozma (2.5)
FFT Monk with Firefly sealstone (1.0)
Rena (.5)
A little more healing and revival along with MP healing from the monk. Also Hamedo and firefly work pretty well together.
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Kyogre, Maya, Cristo, Strago, Raja
Speed? Sealstone.
Question: Can the recipient of a Sealstone, if the sealstone is ST, change each floor?
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Yes.
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Scratch my last post, I'm scrapping my last team.
New team:
Blue (4.0)
TimeLord (3.5)
Lilka (2.0)
Lucia (1.0)
FFT Priest (0.5)
Yeah, I may as well give this team a shot. The only thing it fears is the magically-immune... I think.
However, this team is pending as well - WA FP goes down to some number every battle. I can see the Violent Burst Stone having an effect in the first fight of a floor, then Lilka's royally screwed out of a lot of her spells if the FP decides to reset between fights. However, I can also see that Lilka can have 100 FP at all times, assuming that she never uses her force abilities... Or dies. What's the ruling there?
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However, this team is pending as well - WA FP goes down to some number every battle. I can see the Violent Burst Stone having an effect in the first fight of a floor, then Lilka's royally screwed out of a lot of her spells if the FP decides to reset between fights. However, I can also see that Lilka can have 100 FP at all times, assuming that she never uses her force abilities... Or dies. What's the ruling there?
Indeed, I bugged Neph about this just today. He ruled that for system gauges that refresh every battle, (WA FP, SoA SP, for example) these gauges should be assumed as starting at full at the beginning of the floor and only decreases when the character actually spends the points on using an ability.
Still no ruling on whether a fullheal would restore the system-specific gauges, though I'd guess not (unfortunately).
-Djinn
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Fullheal? I say it would under the case of VBL, if only because it restores TL's Overdrive permission.
Unless I'm remembering wrong.
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Alright, I got a question.
FF5 Chemist (3.5)
Worker 8 (2.0)
Sasarai (2.5)
FF5 Red Mage (2.0)
FF1 Monk (1.0)
My team's got Worker 8, and I'm thinking of putting a Firefly Rune on him. It says it bypasses status and elemental immunities. So, does this mean that he'll no longer be immune to magic, and be targettable by status? If this is the case, would it apply to both sides, meaning I would in fact be able to heal or revive (assuming ID status was applicable) Worker 8 through magical means as well?
The whole Faith based thing makes this seem a bit weird, seeing as having 0 Faith is something that can't normally be changed for Worker 8. What do you guys make of this?
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Alright, I got a question.
My team's got Worker 8, and I'm thinking of putting a Firefly Rune on him. It says it bypasses status and elemental immunities. So, does this mean that he'll no longer be immune to magic, and be targettable by status? If this is the case, would it apply to both sides, meaning I would in fact be able to heal or revive (assuming ID status was applicable) Worker 8 through magical means as well?
The whole Faith based thing makes this seem a bit weird, seeing as having 0 Faith is something that can't normally be changed for Worker 8. What do you guys make of this?
Well, since the Sealstone states that it bypasses immunity, and obviously leaves normal resistance alone (I mean, this is something you put on your tank, so obviously DEF and RES work normally), I personally would see it as forcing Worker 8 to have 1 Faith. This still means that he breaks most magic-reliant enemies, but he's vulnerable to any of that nasty 100% status. He's also not getting healed much with magic... though arguably he can be revived through magical means now, which is pretty useful.
That's how I'm looking at it until the official Neph call is made.
-Djinn
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Technically speaking, 0 Faith is similar to "infinite MDef", in that it just reduces all magic damage to 0. In FFT, status also hits this MDef, so they would also be 0%. I mean, if you took someone from a game who just had say a million defense and nothing could do more than 0 damage to him, that's not physical immunity. ITD physicals work just fine. 0 Faith is similar to that.
On the other hand, the Innocent status is more like magic immunity. It just basically say "anything that hits MDef is nulled, regardless of MDef value". In FFT, this is basically every attack flagged as "magic", including recovery spells. So it's basically magic immunity.
So for Firefly, I'd probably just say Worker 8 has 0 Faith as normal, but no Innocent. I'd say that any magic attack that is ITD hits him just fine (and remember, that bypasses his innate Defense Up), as well as status that explicitly ignore MDef (or checks some other stat).
As for healing? I'd say if the healing doesn't hit MDef, W8 can get healed due to no Innocent, but if it hits MDef, he can't (since his MDef is infinite). On the other hand, you can also say that FFT MDef affects healing and W8 can't be healed because of that. It's a weird situation I can see going both ways, honestly.
That's what makes most sense to me, anyways.
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With this team Rikku, Maria, Peppita, Sharanda, Meru (Life), Nall - would it be a good idea or not to give Maria Speed for F1 instead and then swap that for Life on Meru on F2/later? Maria comes in strong already starting off with Scatter Beam + Berserk as well as the evil SO3 chaos inducing Aiming Device .. but as super said average speed reversed is ... average ... However I was under the impression that most people took ARPG speeds literally? So Maria = snail judging by movement rates in SO3. Or am I wrong and most people follow the ARPG speed as average standard instead? =D
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With this team Rikku, Maria, Peppita, Sharanda, Meru (Life), Nall - would it be a good idea or not to give Maria Speed for F1 instead and then swap that for Life on Meru on F2/later? Maria comes in strong already starting off with Scatter Beam + Berserk as well as the evil SO3 chaos inducing Aiming Device .. but as super said average speed reversed is ... average ... However I was under the impression that most people took ARPG speeds literally? So Maria = snail judging by movement rates in SO3. Or am I wrong and most people follow the ARPG speed as average standard instead? =D
Well, I've been under the impression that ARPG characters were just generally taken as average. SRPG characters like Disgaea, too.
However, I just went through the DL Interps topic and from the 10 people who responded about ARPG speed, 5 said they use "movement/attack speed as the main indicator" and 5 said "average, but weighted/tie broken by move/attack speed."
The TotA and ToP characters are the most recent ARPG characters to be ranked, I believe, and their rankings seem to align with the "average speed" interp.
That's all the information I have on how 'most people' view anything.
-Djinn
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The TotA and ToP characters are the most recent ARPG characters to be ranked, I believe, and their rankings seem to align with the "average speed" interp.
No, the effects of people who take speed as not average are clearly reflected in TotA. Luke has more damage and more durability than Guy, but Guy got ranked higher... the only possible reason for this is because he's faster.
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Therefore, aside from the argument of Maria's sidestep-shot->(insert long-range move here) combo, she's slow.
Not sure what to think of the variation offered by that, though--or to factor it in at all. Probably doubtful (and her best damage prior to floor 7-8 or so is chained Scatterbeam, prior to Gravity Bullet and Energy Burst).
That aside, I've got to puzzle over sealstone options when I get the time to. There's two in particular I can think of that would apply to my team, but...hm.
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Maria is all about rapid chaining Scatter Beam for pure raw HP damage of death in game, Gravity Bullet is too slow by comparison and Energy Burst is more an MP killer. GB/EB might be better in a turn based setting though. Hmmm.
Anyway thanks guys, especially Djinn for taking that work upon yourself ;D
Neph - Speed works per first round per fight yes? Or is it just once per floor >_>
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First round of any given fight.
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Thanks Neph~
Then I would like my team to start -
Rikku,
Maria (Speed),
Peppita,
Sharanda (with items),
Meru,
Nall
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Since I suppose I didn't make it very clear before: You may now submit new teams for the Dungeon.
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Neph: Where's the list of people who already have teams in? I can't find it.
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FF5 Chemist (3.5)
Worker 8 (2.0)
Sasarai (2.5)
FF5 Red Mage (2.0)
FF1 Monk (1.0)
Re-posting.
And I ask again, what would be the consequences of attaching a Firefly Rune to Worker 8?
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Neph: Where's the list of people who already have teams in? I can't find it.
It doesn't exist yet! I'll go back and check.
1: Snowfire | Jessica, Purim, Lyn (Firefly) Garnet, Rena
2. Djinn | Cloud, Raquel, Yulie, Aika - Violent Burst Law
3. dude789 | Blue, Relm, Zozma, FFT Monk (Firefly), Rena
4. Taishyr | Kyogre, Maya, Cristo, Strago, Raja - Speed?
5. Magic Fanatic | Blue, Timelord, Lilka, Lucia, FFT Priest
6. Piggyman | FF5 Chemist, Worker 8, Sasarai, FF5 Red Mage, FF1 Monk
And to Piggyman: Worker 8 can be hit with anything, it just does 1 damage. Status spells would probably not have any chance to hit him due to the way FFT works, however. (I reworded the sealstone so it just bypasses immunity and does 1 damage no matter what.)
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Hey, I had a team created awhile ago where did that go?
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So still a near-flawless status immunity. Guess I'll have to try and avoid Tir. ;p
Alright, I'll take a Firefly on Worker 8, then.
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*spins Neph upside down*~
(I think he's just putting six to a list for now Tal. Maybe.)
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Alright, I'm considering making a team for this... It'd probably be bloody awful, but that's what you get with a first try.
Before that, though...
Firstly, any chance of the Wiki/first post being edited? I'm guessing the Wiki's right, in which case, could the character list from the first post go? Not a big deal, but a little confusing.
Secondly, Sealstones being added to the Wiki?
And lastly, a couple of questions on the Speed? sealstone... Just to clarify, that description means that, if a character would normally move last, they now move first and vice-versa, right?
Also, is that every fight or floor? (Assuming fight, but best to make sure.)
Edit: Another question... Love Love Sealstone - how does that work on Pokemon? Does the player choose a gender for the Pokemon that have genders? What about ones that don't?
Edits again: Okay, I'll just give away what I was thinking and ask - is it possible to have Ditto without the Speed Powder?
Edit: (I'll stop this eventually, honest.) Just to make sure I understand Cloud right... Is it each floor, you master the previous Materia AND get a new one? Or is it OR get a new one?
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Edit: (I'll stop this eventually, honest.) Just to make sure I understand Cloud right... Is it each floor, you master the previous Materia AND get a new one? Or is it OR get a new one?
Don't know about your other questions, but I've seen Cloud in action. He starts with one unmastered materia on floor 1. He masters it by the end of floor 1. At the start of floor 2, he gets to add another unmastered materia to his weapon slots. Rinse and repeat for a great shine and full-bodied spiky hair.
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Rune[PS4](3.0)
Geddoe[S3](3.0)
Kyra[PS4](2.0)
Selan[L2](2.0)
Mime[FF5](1.0)
Sealstone: Elemental Advance
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I've removed the character list from the first post, as you are correct, it was wildly inaccurate. The wiki is right.
The speed? sealstone reverses the -relative- speed of someone. If you used it on someone who was 60% speed in their own game, they'd be considered 120% speed in their game. This doesn't mean they'd be faster than anyone, you'd still have to think about what that means relative to others.
Sealstones should be on the wiki at the moment... I Thought I updated that yesterday. I will check.
The Love Love one, uh... yes, we'll say you choose a gender for them. As for things that are gender neutral, there's simply no bonus.
Uhh... as for Ditto, probably... maybe? I dunno.
And yes, Cloud gets Mastered Materia +1 per floor.
EDIT: And Tal, please repost your team, I can't find it.
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Jude
Arnaud
Yulie
Raquel
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Ditto with the Love Love Sealstone is a pretty amusing case - does the bonus change when Ditto transforms into something of the opposite gender?
How about Yuri? Can he use one of his female demon forms to change the bonus of Love Love? ^_^ This is a completely silly question...
-Djinn
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Wha ... Yuri *has* female demon forms? I never noticed >_>
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Alright then, I'll go for this:
- Cloud (4)
- Edgar (3)
- Yuna (3.5)
- Ditto (w/o Speed Powder) (Speed?) (0.5)
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Did this die? w/e
TEAM LOLMP (/w Resourceless Sealstone)
Sasarai (2.5)
Alex (3.0)
Ryu4 (3.0)
Millenia (2.5)
Basically Sasarai lets rip with his Just-Shy-Of-OHKO-MT nuke, then the rest pick off whatever survives. Later on, Sasarai uses the nuke, then earthquake, then Mother Ocean or Kindness Rain to Heal. Alex lets rip with Dragons, Ryu4 hypes his dragon summons and Millenia doesn't need to worry about running out of Spellbinding Eye juice.
Solid team, ten points.
On a side note, where's Nephirte? ;a;
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Terra (3)
Toadstool (3)
Claude (2.5)
Sharanda (2)
FFT Priest (0.5)
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I wouldn't mind giving this a try if it's still going on.
Cecilia(4)- Buff duty and skill set that makes all other pc's jealous
Raquel(3)- Kill stuff duty
Lilka(2)- Hi-Heal spam is a go, alternatively, Mystic Life Orb spam for heavy mt damage situations.
Jane(2)(Firefly Stone)- "What can you do?" hype while forcing st characters to attack Jane?
I figure early game Jane gets to be the distraction with Firefly, removing potential focus from Lilka and Cecilia so they can get their buff game going. Once Jane gets Follow Me the weakness of Ceci's and Lilka's quick spell being ST only is practically erased, since they can just quicken Jane and have her spam Follow Me for Raquel getting turns at Godlike Speeds = epic destruction.
Hopefully this is still going on so I don't look stupid posting this.
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It's still going on, Neph and I are tinkering with floors.New teams are always welcome.
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Are there records of how far previous teams have gotten in the old Dungeons? I don't know how long this game has been running and I'm curious about how it has evolved over time. What the old selectable rosters looked like, how the floors have changed, what new gimmicks have been added over time, that sort of thing.
It seems like interesting stuff that could fit on the wiki?
Hmm... Does anyone have backups of the old forum topics of this?
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I may have some of it, I'll look.
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I've thought up a couple of interesting combos for people who want to create a team but can't get a good starting point.
Purim and Jane: I used this one last time in the dungeon, and it didn't work so well, but I think there's a lot of potential. Jane and Purim work extremely well together and their biggest weakness is that they both take a couple floors to get going. Follow Me and Blaze Wall takes most people out before they get a chance to attack. Purim also has a bunch of other tricks that can create powerful team combos. She works particularly well with FE characters and characters with MT physicals. If you can create a team that can help get them past the early floor then they should be able to get pretty far. Finally, their point values have dropped recently so this combo is fairly cheap.
Wren and Firefly: This one is pretty simple, but any character who can become status immune can give ST status immunity to the whole team. Characters from games like SH that have good status blockers can also fill this role.
Finally
Cecil, Worker 8 with Firefly, and Shadow: This one is kind of complicated, but if it gets set up it results in almost full immunity from ST attacks. The strategy is that Cecil will cover W8 who will absorb all the ST magic attacks, Shadow will then throw an invis edge on Cecil who will cover W8 and cause physical attackts to miss. The main weaknesses are that it does nothing against MT damage and fast opponents can take it out before it can be set up. However, this isn't the only group that can use this combo. You can substitue Cecil out for someone like Bartz with Knight job, and Shadow can be substituted for someone like Cecilia.
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Edit:
Raquel (Speed), Cristo, Brey, Maxim, Nash
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SEALSTONE UPDATES:
I've changed some of the wording on a few of these to better reflect their intended power. Please make note of it and modify your teams accordingly.
Unless otherwise noted, these affect all combatants, enemy and ally alike. You may also only choose one per team and may not change this throughout the dungeon.
Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, but reduces the final effect of any healing to 50%, regardless of how strong the healing was before (Full healing is always 50% only). The healing also only revives characters with 1 HP.
Speed? - Speed of one character is changed to be the reverse of what it originally was. For example, a character with 70% speed now has 130% speed for their first turn. After this turn their speed returns to normal and cannot be modified positively again.
Resourceless - Your spells and abilities are now free but you may not use the same ability more than once a floor. This does not apply to moves that drain all resources.
Multitarget - One person on the team's actions all become Multitargetted. However, the damage, healing, chances or stat effects of these effects is reduced by 50%. (For example, Deadly Fingertips has a max 50% chance of hitting all targets.) This applies even if there is only one character.
Violent Burst Law - Characters with system-specific gauges begin the floor with them filled. These gauges do not charge during the floor by any means.
Status Symbol Law - Ally Team is fully status, debuff and ID immune, but has all their total statistics reduced by 15%.
Love Love: Damage is increased by 50% against same-sex targets and reduced by 50% against different-sex targets. This applies to both enemies and allies.
Elemental Advance Sealstone: Each attack of the same elemental type is used after the last one, it gets a 25% boost. Both sides may take advantage of the same level of damage, but also break the chain with any other spell. This damage caps at 150%.
Vantage Effect Sealstone: Counter abilities excecute BEFORE the attack that triggers them for all enemies and characters.
Firefly: A chosen member of your party will always be the target of enemy attacks, however, this also bypasses normal immunities (so no Gastly avoiding physicals this way) as well as status or elemental immunities. Characters with this sealstone have damage done to them increased by 20% and have hit rates against them increased by 10% (50% status becomes 60%, not 55%) The character is still the target unless hit by a fatal status. This does persist if the character dies and is brought back to life. However, multitarget moves ignore this effect. Worker 8 is immune to this Sealstone.
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... Okay, then, scrap my team. Back to the drawing board.
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Worker 8 can't have Firefly? Fack!
*remakes team*
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I have truly crushed dreams this day. What kind of president am I.
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Kyogre, Maya, Cristo, Strago, Raja - w/ Speed? Sealstone.
Confirmation on ST sealstones; how often can they change who they influence? Is it perma-set on a character, once per floor, or can it switch between fights?
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Before each floor.
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Cool on the Sealstone being able to be changed between floors, this makes me regret putting Firefly on Jane less since I can just switch it to Raquel after Jane becomes useful >.>.
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Alright, new team. Feeling good about this. =D
Fogel (3.0)
Chemist (3.5)
Cray w/ Speed? (1.0)
Sasarai (2.5)
Jean (0.5)
Nall (0.5)
So, here's the deal. Fogel's a beast as is, Cray with Speed? makes sure he can make him even more monstrous, and, come Floor 4, Kiss of Blessing gives Fogel Image, Berserk and Haste. FOGEL HYPE IS GO! But I realize I have to make it there to get that started. ;p
Jean has status and ID (although late), Sas has nuke-level magic, as well as excellent healing, and Chemist has 100% HP+MP revival. I noticed I only had one reviver, so Nall fits in perfectly. Also, my team's a big sluggish, but Cray with Speed? means he can speed buff anyone who needs it, and Jean starts with a speed buff, too. And Silent Lake + Chemist work well together. Chemist does nothing magical. ;p
Voila. :)
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Quick friendly warning: Agi. Up is bugged. In-game (at least for SNES, don't remember if it's the same for GBA), it does nothing.
Mmm. Still, interesting design there, and I love the Fogel hype.
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Quick friendly warning: Agi. Up is bugged. In-game (at least for SNES, don't remember if it's the same for GBA), it does nothing.
Mmm. Still, interesting design there, and I love the Fogel hype.
EDIT: Replaced Mint with Tear. Chemist is my only revival early on.
Fogel (3.0)
FF5 Chemist (3.5)
Cray w/ Speed? (1.0)
Sasarai (2.5)
Tear (1.0)
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This might be useful for some people. It's got my team designs excised from it, but it's what I've started using.
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Let's try this again. (inb4 wording change)
Aeris Gainsborough (1.0) w/ Life Sealstone
Sasarai (2.5)
Crowley (2.0)
Rudy (2.0)
Ted (3.5)
------>
Basically, Aeris spams Cure on everyone for 50% healing. The Life stone says anything is 50% healing regardless of initial strength, and since Cure doesn't really care about MP a lot I have infinite 50% healing from Aeris. Crowley and Sasarai can assist as needed.
The basic strategy? Spam MT nukes like hell hath no. Rudy covers for Ted against physicals. Cry and weep if something blocks magic.
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Just so you understand -- the Life stone means whatever the final healing result is, it is cut by 50%. So if you have a 30% heal, it is now 15%. If you have a 100% heal, it is 50%. If you have a 150% heal, it is also 50%. Does that make more sense?
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;____; I knew it was too good to be true. Another scrap.
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Team Change!-Lenneth (3.5), Maria (2.0), Peppita (1.5), Sharanda w/th items (2.0), Meru (0.5), Nall (1.0)
Seal Stone-Speed (Maria)
I forgot does Lenneth start with healing/revival? I think she does but I need to be sure =-) I also forgot for sure how much Nall w/o taking up a party member slot is, I can still afford it though I think.
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You can, you even have .5 left.
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Actually, CT, you have 1.0 left; Nall's only 0.5. This being said, you are maxed out slot-wise (five chars + Nall), so. Your call, here.
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If I recall correctly, Nall is 0.5 if he takes a slot, and 1.0 if he doesn't take a slot (allowing for 5 chars + Nall). So CT only has 0.5 left (or can drop a character and get the discounted Nall).
Does Speed? matter for Maria? She's got a slow running speed but she's got ranged attacks so it's not really relevant. I usually peg her at average speed, myself, but maybe most people hold the slow run against her.
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Oh, is that so? Hm, then I'd need to upgrade my spreadsheet, since I didn't notice that one.
And... I'd probably hold her slow movement speed against her for the first turn, which is where it's relevant; after that, no. Granted, that makes Speed? perfect for her, but hey.
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If I recall correctly, Nall is 0.5 if he takes a slot, and 1.0 if he doesn't take a slot (allowing for 5 chars + Nall).
In which case, I'm afraid Piggy's gonna need to take another look at that team. ;p
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And... I'd probably hold her slow movement speed against her for the first turn, which is where it's relevant; after that, no. Granted, that makes Speed? perfect for her, but hey.
That doesn't make much sense to me...
Since she's ranged character, wouldn't her range allow her a quick first turn where she gets the jump on her opponent before they can move into melee range? On turn 2, I'd peg her as incredibly slow due to not having a range advantage anymore and using her movement speed as analagous to turn speed.
She'd probably have an even slower turn 2 to me if she's up against a melee attacker with counters since she would want to move out of counter range before shooting again.
Against another ranged character, she's just slow, though.
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It wouldn't, really, because she needs to run into the range where she can attack. She has range, but it's hardly infinite and hardly mitigates the distance she needs to cover entirely. Since she doesn't have to move -more- after she gets into the range she needs (and being closer than that range still means a faster attack, since she's not moving away EVERY SINGLE TURN TO GET INTO AN EXACT RANGE because that would be Meeplina Penthouse Edition-level gameplay design for SO3 - not that other games don't do that), then she's not that slow to fire things off once she gets into the range.
And you now have scratched why ARPG speed discussions are best dealt with acid and whiskey.
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It wouldn't, really, because she needs to run into the range where she can attack. She has range, but it's hardly infinite and hardly mitigates the distance she needs to cover entirely. Since she doesn't have to move -more- after she gets into the range she needs (and being closer than that range still means a faster attack, since she's not moving away EVERY SINGLE TURN TO GET INTO AN EXACT RANGE because that would be Meeplina Penthouse Edition-level gameplay design for SO3 - not that other games don't do that), then she's not that slow to fire things off once she gets into the range.
And you now have scratched why ARPG speed discussions are best dealt with acid and whiskey.
To avoid melee counters, she -would- be moving every single turn.
I hadn't realized her range wasn't infinite (or close enough). I didn't use Maria much in SO3, I thought she pretty much started most battles in range. Like Natalia.
And again, I'm mostly using movement speed as analogous to turn speed, but for the first turn, I was using her range as initiative (only against non-ranged opponents, of course). For the most part, she's just slow to me.
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If she has to deal with melee counters, then yes, she's probably slower than average. However, see Snow for why I see Speed? getting her into range faster.
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Wouldn't it just be easier to have Speed? give a first turn initiative?
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If I recall correctly, Nall is 0.5 if he takes a slot, and 1.0 if he doesn't take a slot (allowing for 5 chars + Nall).
In which case, I'm afraid Piggy's gonna need to take another look at that team. ;p
I'll wait for the call from Neph on this one. ;p
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Since the Wiki is down I can't confirm it but I am 90% sure I changed Nall to be a 1.0 that didn't take a party slot. He USED TO BE a .5 that did.
As for the Speed stone, it would certainly be easier to give the person with it initiative, but that'd be a little bit boring. :)
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The wiki works fine from what I can see. It kicks out error messages on the headers but still loads afterwards (I'm guessing this is due to being tied to the old boards, they kick out a similar message).
Anyway, Nall seems to be a .5 capsule on the full list still.
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Maria doesn't have to move far, and with her range, she should be able to shoot the enemies before any other PC can run up to them to attack (and this has the added benefit of the enemies not even being close enough to attack HER). Can't really see that being kneejerked as below average speed on turn one...
Now to go find that acid and whiskey. Not that whiskey is too dissimilar from acid.
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Well, for now, go with Nall as 1.0 that doesn't take a party slot.
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Maria doesn't have to move far, and with her range, she should be able to shoot the enemies before any other PC can run up to them to attack (and this has the added benefit of the enemies not even being close enough to attack HER). Can't really see that being kneejerked as below average speed on turn one...
Maria's...odd. Some moves (Scatter Beam, Magnetic Field, anything with kicks, Laser Blast, Gravity Bullet) would have to be done up close. In THAT case, her speed blows. Long-range moves, you could kneejerk to be faster, perhaps.
...but that is admittedly headache-inducing.
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Changed my team, editted my post at the top of the page.
Took out Rena and Nall for Mint.
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Well it's not like Maria has to really worry about Scatter Beam's range/inaccuracy issues until later floors where peeps need max fire power, even a ranged Scatter Beam chain should kill most things dead early on especially buffed by Peppita/Lenneth. SB's hit problems mainly come from facing chibi sized enemies besides. Since SB doesn't actually take Maria into direct S/R when set to long slots unlike Crescent Locus/Triple Kick/etc it can probably be considered a multi ranged move.
Saying that it might be useful to some people to have a list of what moves are generally considered LR/SR and what not -
Maria-
Short range -Crescent Locus, Gravity Bullet, Magnetic Field, Laser Blast, Triple Kick, Charge, Aerial
Long range-Energy Burst, Radiation Bots, Aiming Device
Multi-Scatter Beam
Other-Symbology
Peppita-
Short range-Charge, Aerial, Kaboom, Faerie Friend, Dream Hammer, counters
Long range- Magic Hook, Instanto Blast, Frozen Daggers
Multi-Dances~
Personally I like to use Power Dance in chains with Faerie Friend/Dream Hammer for powerful offensive cancel combos (you can cancel chain early yet still retain the ATK boost) Since those moves don't come until late though she's probably just going to want to hang back at range and do full dances before cancelling into the next dance for the most part of the dungeon I think. Your mileage may vary ^_^
Yummy supports! *flees*
What all that says about Speed I don't know but I was planning to give Meru Life on F2 anyway, maybe.
With that 0.5 left over I'm waiting to see if Neph will allow Maria or Peppita Common Support Symbols (Healing), I think Maria might be best since Pep picks up healing of her own later on anyway~
(of course this is all assuming if I even get *past* F1 >_>*
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Saying that it might be useful to some people to have a list of what moves are generally considered LR/SR and what not -
Maria-
Short range -Crescent Locus, Gravity Bullet, Magnetic Field, Laser Blast, Triple Kick, Charge, Aerial
Long range-Energy Burst, Radiation Bots, Aiming Device
Multi-Scatter Beam
Other-Symbology
Peppita-
Short range-Charge, Aerial, Kaboom, Faerie Friend, Dream Hammer, counters
Long range- Magic Hook, Instanto Blast, Frozen Daggers
Multi-Dances~
Could you do this for Nel and Adray too?
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NP Djinn =-)
Nel-
Short range-Charge, Aerial, Shockwave, Shadow Wave, Poison Cloud, Mirror Slice, Divine Wrath
Long range- Splitting Sky, Flying Guillotine, Lightning Chain
Multi- Ice Daggers, Whirlwind
Other-Symbology
*In game Nel's Whirlwind has an interesting property where you can attach passives like Increase HP damage, Stun, Increase MP damage, etc to it (start up a WW > WW chain at long range then move in and tap the short range X or O, whatever you have the passive assigned to) That might take Nel two turns to set up in the DL though I dunno. Of course WW can just be used normally at short range as well.
*I *think* Lightning Chain is L/R, need to check though
Adray-
Short range- Charge, Aerial, Earth Glaive, Lightning Blast, Southern Cross, Siricco
Long range-Fire Bolt, Ice Needles, Emotion Torrent, Titan Fist, Sea Gate
Other-Symbology
* Fire Bolt, Ice Needles, Lightning Blast, Southern Cross and Earth Glaive is all the symbology Adray can set as battle skills irrc, I'll double check next time I play though < hasn't played SO3 in a while :o!
Thanks Djinn <(^^)>
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Ephraim (2.5) w/ Firefly
Sasarai (2.5)
Garnet (2.0)
Rudy (2.0)
Raja (1.0)
Nall (1.0)
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I call this TEAM MAGIC. Sasarai will be the main damage dealer; on the first few floors, Earthquake should clean house. There's not much that stops his Earth elemental assault, and I don't think many can top that impressive damage of his in his own game. (is there anyone that can beat that sort of damage?)
Ephraim's counters coupled with Firefly should be... interesting. Rudy can cover for Raja, Garnet, Sasarai in case of accidents happening. Nall's there to revive should things go awry, while Garnet and Raja are my main Healers. Sasarai -can- revive, but it takes away from his TRUE EARTH NUKE, so I'd rather have Garnet/Raja/Nall deal with that. Raja can restore Sasarai MP if it's reaaaaaaaaaally needed?
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Just so people know, I will be adding the following two facets to the Firefly Sealstone for future teams:
Any status attack used on the character will hit, regardless of immunity to said status. The status hit rate remains the same + the natural 10%.
To clarify, if someone has ID attached to their physical, the chance of that ID activating remains the same but with an extra 10% added, no matter how accurate the attack is.
Characters who have a "Defend" command may feel free to use it, but it will not reduce damage. It will, however, do anything else a defend command in the home game does. (LoD Defend still heals, for example)
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I changed my mind about Firefly. This is what the new one is going to look like:
Firefly: One member of your team becomes the target of all Single target attacks. This effect overrides any elemental and status protection. In addition, revival effects on this target take effect in the next battle. Defending or other self-imposed actions that reduce damage (such as Auron's Guardian) do not reduce the damage this target takes. This effect may not be used on Worker 8 or Jane.
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Yeah, this seems like a good idea. It's amazing how much the Dungeon's natural balance is thrown off when Slow Tanks and Dodgy Counter-whores are actually -useful-.
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Ouch! :(
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Oh wow... I didn't realize how sarcastic that came out.
I'm actually being sincere here. I think it's a good change. The main strategy for both sides in the Dungeon is to focus on the Team's biggest threat. Firefly really messes that up by allowing previously less-useful characters like Slow Tanks or Dodgy Counter-whores to fill their niche more completely (and generally these types of characters were in the Dungeon for their -other- skills, and they're still getting to exploit those, too!).
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So uh, Nall revival. How's that work under new Firefly rules?
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So uh, Nall revival. How's that work under new Firefly rules?
Well, Nall made sure anyone who died one battle would be revived the next one, so I'm guessing it would work exactly the same way?
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That is correct.
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After careful consideration, and taking into account the proposed change to Firefly, I've decided to opt for a stronger tank to bear that Firefly Stone. Wall of text incoming since I like sharing my idea for the team. Please bear with me.
Marcus (1.5) w/ Firefly
Sasarai (2.5)
Garnet (2.0)
Ness (3.0)
Monk (1.0)
Nall (1.0)
Nall remains as my backup in case things go awry. Thankfully I don't really have much else to spend the points on. Basically, Marcus is my early-game tank, and he's going to kill a lot as well.
Sasarai gets time to level up some until the later floors where his magic's really the main damage.
Garnet is still on healing duty.
Ness is there to be my late-game tank. His Shield spell is going to be rather awesome, I should say. 50% physical damage reduction will turn him into a massive tank that reflects damage back as well. 10/10, would recruit again.
Monk is there to provide a physical smackdown on whatever has already been weakened by Sasarai's earth spells.
The team will mostly rely on Sasarai's MT damage wearing almost all enemies down, allowing for the three others (Garnet is on support duty) to pick off the enemies one by one. Even MT damage won't do the opponents much good; if it's magical, Sasarai is very likely to simply shrug it off, and Garnet's magic defense is still good. The two of them can bring back whoever falls, and somehow I think only Marcus and Monk will die from that, if at all.
Physical MT? I've got an army of buffs from Sasarai, Garnet and Ness to deal with that, and despite claims to Sasarai's lack of speed, he still scores lightly above average on stat topics, and in my experience was the first to do anything anytime I let him cast a spell. I'm confident I can reduce the physical smackdowns to nothing.
SHOULD something go wrong and Garnet and Sasarai both die and/or are unable to resurrect someone, and Ness doesn't have revival yet, Nall can pick up after the fight and raise whoever fell.
How can this possibly go wrong?
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Well, if there's a status that Garnet doesn't block, there could be trouble if it's MT. But... I don't think the Dungeon has a lot of that. At least, not until the late floors, and I think Sasarai gets handed a Yellow Scarf in the late floors.
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Well, there is the fact that you won't be able to revive Marcus in that fight. If the MT does kill Marcus & Monk, as you said it could, then your Firefly's gone and you could face some trouble.
But, in all honesty, that's not likely to be too common, and I'm guessing a fight with that will have it's downsides to make it go down pretty damn quickly to the offence there. I like it. :D
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Fire Fly isn't even worth it any more imo. But that's just me >_>
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Fire Fly isn't even worth it any more imo. But that's just me >_>
Good! ...I mean... um... ... *cough*
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<_<
*scraps evil plans*
*plots some more*
Heheheh will anyone ever outwit the dungeon master? ;-)
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The toro and a few others have done that quite a few times, just the power of rebalancing is wondrous. It's one of Neph's superpowers. =]
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I am probably responsible for about 25% of the random changes/tweaks to duelers/sealstones, I'd estimate? Crowley was my crown jewel of "yeah, this needs to be fixed", probably.
Seconding Snow, as well.
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To be fair, no one had used Crowley before you. /nod
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This is true. I'm pretty sure I was the one bringing up 3/4ths of the nasty Firefly Sealstone uses, tho.
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Well, to blabber a bit, the Firefly change has made it more important that either
A) The target is a distraction to force some enemies to waste turn 1, and isn't crucial to the main plan (late dungeon Marcus, Nina3, etc.)
B) The target really is a true tank who won't die. (Ephraim, Ziggy, FF1 Knight)
C) The target has some evil ability that makes them a psuedo-tank (JANE, FFT Monk's Hamedo as the more balanced example)
Actually, Onix isn't a bad combination of both, as who cares if he dies but he randomly spoils physical damage well.
Even with the revive nerf, this new Firefly is still quite powerful, and I'd cheerfully pay points for it. Having a distraction round 1 is pretty huge, and tanky Dungeon teams with overwhelming MT damage or status tend to slay the party anyway. (Also, count me as totally on the bandwagon for
--
Some people brought up FE8 Ewan earlier. Think he'd be pretty neat, but he's a 0.5 point pick. Compared to Moulder, he's a complete puny on floors 1 & 2 (early healing and tankiness is at least something, especially in a team whose healing comes later, compared to Pupil Ewan's bad damage with no durability and getting doubled), and isn't as good stat-wise as you might expect. He's average speed, but has horrible Con, so is below-average when using "heavier tomes" like Luna and even more so when using Nosferatu (yay FE for not making sense; how are *spells* heavy?!). You can only buy Nosferatu 5 plot battles from the end of the game anyway. On the bright side, his stat caps are nice and high, so he continues to get better on Floors 7-10. And Gleipnir is a nice nuke even if it *completely* tanks Ewan's attack speed (and isn't happening until floor 7 or so due to requiring an S in Dark). Also, as usual, Dark gets all the "interesting" spells, with Eclipse for damage, Luna for RES-ignoring, and Nosferatu for the (slowish) drain game, and it's generally hard to find much good dark-typed damage?
Think I'd see Ewan as something like:
Floors 1-2: Pupil
Floors 3-4: Shaman (Eclipse, Luna)
Floor 5: Druid (Nosferatu, the various Healing and Arcane spells)
Floor 7: Gleipnir
I assume most people would go with the Druid route, as Summoner is kind of DL fail, and there are plenty of other options for Arcane magic.
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Luna in FE8 is pretty useless due to its 50 Hit. Nosferatu is something but less useful in a team setting than in a DL match. That floor progression looks too fast for Ewan to me, as well... he doesn't even -join- until Floor 4, most likely, and if you don't do randoms and so on won't hit Druid until Floor 7.
Also, Moulder is below average durability early. "Tanky for a mage" does not equal "tanky". Plus random critical rates against him, though this is less bad in the dungeon than in-game, probably.
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Well, I'm assuming he joins on floor 2 after the Ephraim / Eirika split, similar to the kind of hacks suggested for Sasarai & Kurando to make them useful early. It'd be weird to have Ewan be a Pupil for 5 floors... how would that even scale? Would he be sub-puny on floor 1? (Also, the original Ewan suggestion had him classing up on floor 2, so.)
Forgot about Luna's bad hit. Eh, it's still a useful *option* against magic tanks in long matchs, I suppose.
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Team evaluation time!
Blue: Blue's damage was a godsend and his speed wasn't a huge problem until floor 3, although I think it would be a bit of a problem on the PC version of floor 2. His main problem is that early on he has to make tough choices for what skills he wants. Generally he wants light magic for healing and revival, guns for speed, and other magic types for unique options. It was unfortunate that he didn't start with reaction shot when I chose guns mastery as that would have helped for floor 3. For floor 4 I probably would have chosen rune magic
Zozma: I'm not sure that I chose the best floors for Zozma, but he was useful regardless. Sharp pain has the potential to make certain fights a breeze and that is very powerful in a 2.5. I think this new version of the dungeon is a little less friendly for him, but I would still recommend him.
Relm: Relm is interesting in that she's probably the best example of a high risk-high reward character in the dungeon. She's less than a puny for 2.5 floors and she doesn't really reach her point value until about the end of floor 4. However, after that she shoots upward in power until she is a godlike. I would love to see someone use her successfully because I think if she learns a few spells she could take a team pretty deep into the dungeon.
Monk: Monk was great. Even though I never got to use him with the firefly sealstone, he still was incredibly useful. Early revival and mp restoration where incredibly useful and the rest of his skill set wasn't bad either.
Rena: She's an okay healer for the early floors, but she probably can't handle the entire load by herself early on. Unfortunately I didn't reach some of her better utility moves like Anti and growth, but the skill set is powerful for a .5.
Reason it failed: Skill limitations. There are some risked that come with using a character who has not been used before and this team is evidence of it. I was a bit disappointed when Blue didn't learn his entire skill set of choice at first, but I wasn't that surprised. However, Relm not starting the floor with magic was too costly a burden to overcome, and if i had known about it I probably would have made a different team. If either of them had started the floor 3 all of the gun skills or magic the outcome would have been different.
My Next team will probably be something a little bit simpler. My last two teams have focused on having a wide variety of abilities and using tricks to pass the dungeon which has cost them when a crucial ability is learned too late. I’m leaning toward a new version of the Emily-Deis 2 team I had a while back, but changed in favor of the Purim- Jane team.
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For what it's worth, because of the confusion with Relm I have updated her sheet to indicate when I, personally, let her gain her spells!
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Regretfully I feel like I must let Meru go, much sadness. It's great that my team morphs into having three healers on F2 and four healers later on when Peppita gets Healing Dance too but only having one healer (Lenneth) on F1 is too much of a liability I think. Thus w/th that extra .5 I had left over I think I should replace Meru with Lucia (SH2) Yeah Lucia doesn't exactly have pure healing but her regen should be enough to tide me over F1 I think, plus she has magic to help with Rampage Drive which I really *need*
Team Buffs Blitz- Lenneth, Sharanda (w/th attack magic/items, Maria (w/th Speed), Peppita, Lucia, Nall
Edit: Oh wait RD nulls dark, screw that. Back to the drawing board =/
I take it nobody sees Sharanda taking out Rampage Drive herself even with her thirty two items max? >_> (I take it that's why Neph raised her cost anyway because of how much items she can carry!?)
Peeps suggest an awesme CT bait for 1.0 or 0.5, perferrably one that starts with both healing and an attack spell, hopefully someone who isn't dead slow? =-)
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I take it nobody sees Sharanda taking out Rampage Drive herself even with her thirty two items max? >_> (I take it that's why Neph raised her cost anyway because of how much items she can carry!?)
Uhhh... that's a good question. Assault Dive isn't a great 2HKO without Tarukaja and Sharanda isn't quite as frail in the beginning as she is at the end, I wanna say? I guess it depends on how much you respect LoD damage items, though I doubt she could pull it off.
That said, I'd like to make a minor adjustment to my team as well, since this has made me think about my own team as well.
Terra, Toadstool (Life), Claude, Sharanda, FFT Priest
Largely because the Priest is the only one with revival until Terra learns Life and Toadstool learns Come Back, and it doesn't always work. Toadstool's healing is pretty good anyways, and it's not like I'm using her for anything else on the early floors, so... yeah. I'll probably shunt it onto the Priest once my team gets more solid revival. This way I at least have a better chance of getting past Rampage Drive.
Peeps suggest an awesme CT bait for 1.0 or 0.5, perferrably one that starts with both healing and an attack spell, hopefully someone who isn't dead slow? =-)
Mallow? Dunno about the CT bait part, but he's got both attack and healing magic, and he's not horribly slow. Probably your best bet.
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Thanks Random =-) *did some research* Mallow looks ... interesting. Early healing and looks like he develops into a solid magic offence overall w/th elemental options. It's also a small cute thing so it fits CT Bait enough >_>
Couldn't find anything on MT healing though, does he get any?
Edit: Probably still my best bet anyway, Tears and Mint are out because awesme supports but no starting magic offence ... Mia doesn't have healing .. Raja is .. Raja ... Adray would be a solid choice (starts of w/th Healing and a few elemental symbologies) but that speed hurts, Zhuzhen mmm *thinks* Yukari maybe? Dunno how slow she is or not but irrc she starts w/th both healing and a wind spell. Could be wrong though. Edit: RD + Mazio! Oh right. I don't want Yukari vs RD anyway!
I have great respect for LoD attack items seeing as Shana does more damage than Dart/Lavitz w/th additions w/th them early on <_< Also Sharanda actually has the highest HP out of the three female characters which is just odd I know but yeah. Edit: Heh you probably already know that anyway since Sharanda is one of your picks >_>
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I think you're worrying too much about the Rampage Drive fight! Lenneth has that Force Field skill, doesn't she? I'd say that helps a lot there.
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Rampage Drive is basically similar to Ramsus in earlier iterations of the dungeon. "Do you have magic damage". That's practically what it's about.
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Lenneth has that Force Field skill, doesn't she? I'd say that helps a lot there.
!!!
Lenneth starts w/th the Might + Guard spells too, oh yeah >_>
Thanks guys~
I should really like to keep Meru so I might as well just toss my team in and see what happens. Sharanda w/th items + Meru w/th Freezing Ring might be enough magic damage =-)
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-Guard Reinforce (15 AP, Level initial): Boosts one character's RDM and RST
by 50%
-Heal (35 AP, Level initial): Heals 80% HP of one ally
-Invoke Feather (40 AP, initial): Revives one ally
-Might Reinforce (18 AP, Level initial): Boosts one character's ATK by 50%
-Normalize (12 AP, Level initial): Heals one ally of the following status
effects: Poison, Confuse, Silence, Freeze,
Paralysis, Stone and Faint
-Sap Power (15 AP, Level 53): Reduces ATK of enemies within an area
-Spell Reinforce (18 AP, Level 56): Boosts one character's MAG by 50%
-Dampen Magic (15 AP, Level 58): Causes Silence on one enemy
-Sap Guard (15 AP, Level 62): Reduces RDM and RST of enemies within an area
-Reflect Sorcery (22 AP, Level 64): Reflect attack spells
Spell Reinforce would be super if you got it earlier than, uh, Floor 7, but oh well.
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Might Reinforce is still great for physicallers! Not that it matters for Rampage Drive. Guard Reinforce also isn't very useful, VP2 defense, but.
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Yeah. That's the main problem with Lenneth. Half of her unlearned spells and attacks come in around Floor 7. The other half...8 or 9.
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The ones she gets out of the gate are the money ones for dungeon purposes anyway, besides Spell Reinforce (and Guard Reinforce, which just isn't very good. Cure Condition actually is useful in the dungeon). Sap Guard/Power and Dampen Magic hype aw yeah.
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Her Heroism skill has some application in some Dungeon fights, too.
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Eh. Reflect Sorcery may also have niche use, unless there's a massive hole in its utility--but that's got to be Floor 9 (End of Seraphic Gate, and I've only just NOW learned it)
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Eh. Reflect Sorcery may also have niche use, unless there's a massive hole in its utility
Reflects only one spell and is ST. You can figure the hole from there. Its use just gets inflated in a duel, and even so, only because of VP2's system quirks. If it required a turn to cast, it'd be worthless even in the DL.
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Hopefully Lenneth has better things to do than support by F9 anyway!
**
Steelix, Shuckle and Knight can still be taken down easily enough w/th enough physical fire power right? I think Sharanda/Meru want to conserve their magic till the RD fight >_>
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Steelix, Shuckle and Knight just get owned by infinite healing. Drop Knight, then Shuckle and Steelix just -fail forever and ever-. Your physical reliance is still worrisome, though, and Mallow wouldn't be a good choice to fix -that-, since his offense is lacking.
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Eh. Reflect Sorcery may also have niche use, unless there's a massive hole in its utility
Reflects only one spell and is ST. You can figure the hole from there. Its use just gets inflated in a duel, and even so, only because of VP2's system quirks. If it required a turn to cast, it'd be worthless even in the DL.
Actually, when I used it, it looked like it was MT.
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Right. Then, its disadvantage is just only lasting one spell and, well, not being entirely comprehensive, since it doesn't cover Great Magic (so, can be argued against covering higher end magic from other targets).
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*nods* Yeah plus I was thinking Meru would end up better later in the dungeon that Mallow anyway. How about Mia then? She doesn't have healing but she looks good apart from that and it looks like Lenneth covers F1 well enough for healing in any case.
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Mia still hates physical hits, and she still wishes she had actual speed. I generally allow people alternate equipment such as Mia's speed-boosting staff and accessories in the Dungeon, not sure how others see this... so you'd trade for a physically weak, and sort of slow mage.
Her defense boosting spell stacks and is awesome, though, when she gets it.
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Mia still hates physical hits, and she still wishes she had actual speed. I generally allow people alternate equipment such as Mia's speed-boosting staff and accessories in the Dungeon, not sure how others see this... so you'd trade for a physically weak, and sort of slow mage.
Her defense boosting spell stacks and is awesome, though, when she gets it.
I'd allow Mia the Wind Cane in the dungeon, but only in accordance with when she actually gets it in game. So a slow mage no doubt for a good bit, but the buffs are pretty excellent, and her MP will very, VERY rarely run out. Pretty sure she takes hits better than Meru, though.
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I just did the maths, turns out Mia's defense is hovering around the 88%, and her HP 89%, so her lasting power isn't that bad. I clearly underestimated her! Magic Defense is 107%, so I guess for a Mage she's pretty bad at taking magic when comparing her to some of the other mages.
I was going to suggest Lemina as an alternative since she has dispel, all the same buffs as Mia and higher damage spells, but I wasn't sure whether Hiro made her damage relatively speaking the same, so I did some comparisons. Lemina has a wider skillset and more options, but unfortunately she's more frail than Mia and slower. She has somewhat better magic defense, but eh.
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Thanks again peeps.
Lenneth (3.5), Maria (2.0), Sharanda (2.0) Peppita (1.5), Mia (1.0), Nall (1.0)
Sealstone - Status Symbol Law
Let's see how badly this explodes/how long it takes to do so.
Anyone know how much MP Mia starts with exactly?
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Far more than you'd be bothered with. Mia has overkill, overkill MP throughout the game.
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Well, team's up.
Bartz (4)
Emily (3)
Peppita (1.5)
Nei (1)
DoS WW (1.5)
Multitarget Sealstone
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*doesn't remember FFV too well* Must be nasty physicals in there somewhere since all I'm seeing is Song of Madness + Power Dance = $$$$$$
*nods @ Snow* Gd gd, I'm ready and set to go then, thanks peeps~
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Yikes, Mint's revival is a lot later than I thought it was. I need revival earlier than that.
Switched out Mint for Tear. Editted it on my team.
EDIT: Might as well repost it here, for convenience.
Fogel (3.0)
FF5 Chemist (3.5)
Cray w/ Speed? (1.0)
Sasarai (2.5)
Tear (1.0)
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Team Yuri
Sealstone: Love Love
Yuri1 (3.5)
Yuri2 (3.5)
Chie (2)
Yukiko (1.5)
Ditto (0.5)
Best team ever, or best team ever?
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For those who don't keep up with the brainstorming post, the following people are being officially added:
Shania, Shadow Hearts 3
Yosuke, Chie, Naoto, Teddie and Yukiko, Persona 4
Jeff, Earthbound
Ivan, Golden Sun
Cielo, DDS
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Team modified to reflect this new information.
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I've also changed Cecil to 4DS. Doesn't change his numerical ranking any and he's a better dungeon choice for it.
Oh yeah, and Nall's back as a .5 that DOES take up a party slot. There are now 2 Nalls. Don't use both.
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Okay, I'd like to change my team in light of the newest additions. Can't find my previous post, so just gonna post my new team here~
With the Status Symbol Law Sealstone:
Cielo (3.0) (Who'd've thought, eh?)
Geno (3.0)
Juan (1.5)
Yukiko (1.5)
Mint (1.0)
Nall (1.0)
Spoke to Neph about Status Symbol and Juan:
[02:03] <Nephrite> Well, you have two options.
[02:03] <Nephrite> You can either keep the sleep and need to poke him and he goes berserk.
[02:03] <Nephrite> Or, and I believe this can be tested in-game, he starts battles awake but has no berserk.
Edited based on the recent comments. Mint & Yukiko are there as healers, while Yukiko & Cielo can hit stuff with magic (worked out that I'd be having trouble on Floor 1 Fight 2 otherwise... Bloody Steelix.) Juan's still there to tear stuff apart, while Geno hits with damn powerful attacks and/or ID. Nall, as always to clean up afterwards.
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Heh, that takes me back. Yuna poking Juan awake was my first team's strat. Didn't work out too well then, but there's a lot more options for the other slots now.
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Heh, that takes me back. Yuna poking Juan awake was my first team's strat. Didn't work out too well then, but there's a lot more options for the other slots now.
NALL COULD DO IT?
no
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Rand has Wake, which is a -really- weak hit. It's slow to come, but its damage is negligible.
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Rand has Wake, which is a -really- weak hit. It's slow to come, but its damage is negligible.
It also has like a 30% chance of reviving someone with 1 HP! Which I never knew because Breath of Fire 2 was not well-documented at the time that I played it.
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As a side-note, the evaluation on Juan regarding the Status Law sealstone is indeed correct. He starts awake, but without the Berserk effect. This is actually a net gain for him.
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Hmm. Better for my team for Juan to start awake/non-berserked? Either way, I'm pretty happy with this team idea~
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My only concern for the team is the stat drop making Yuna not that great on speed, and dropping Cielo to below average which hurts for the two healers/revivers. Otherwise, should work out pretty well? Cielo under Status Symbol will be intimidating.
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The team lacks good magic and MT damage until pretty late, but the physical damage should help to make up for it. I'd try to avoid any floor with physical tanks.
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In light of the new additions, I'd like to change my team to...
Ivan (Life Sealstone) (3.0)
Lucian (2.5)
Claude (2.5)
Sharanda (2.0)
Shiho (1.0)
Shining Bolt hype is go.
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The team lacks good magic and MT damage until pretty late, but the physical damage should help to make up for it. I'd try to avoid any floor with physical tanks.
Uhh, good magic? Cielo has above average magic and gets Elec Boost by Floor 2 to help with that. The only real problem will be if they also immune/resist electric, and I'll already be getting buffs/debuffs on Cielo by F4, while Yuna can Protect early on if needed to survive physical tanks.
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That's true, but keep in mind that the status symbol law is going to be reducing that damage by a bit. You're team works well against strong single opponents, but against a group they're going to struggle a bit.
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Alright, another team change in light of the comments here and a little research - looks like my old team wasn't getting past the second fight of Floor 1, thanks to Steelix nulling all of Cielo's decent damage, and SSL's stat lowering.
Now, I've got Yukiko for a second element, both her & Cielo get early MT and I've switched in Geno for some ID & lethal physicals. Mint's a cheaper healer who still fits her niche well here (can't get silenced, so just sit and heal/revive) and Nall is... there to revive at the end, as usual. Oh, and Juan blitz yay~
(I think this'll be the last team change. Honest. :( )
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You should never hesitate to keep thinking about your team but I wouldn't suggest overthinking it. Go with your gut!
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Evaluation time since I got cocky and probably picked the worst floor for my team.
Cecilia - Was just as awesome as I expected her to be, really carried the team with her versatility, pretty much did everything between damage, statusing out threats, healing, and (de)buffing. Having Firefly to keep her from getting focused worked out quite well. Her only downside was I wished she could just be a little faster on the earlier floors.
Raquel - Killed stuff, did it well, but was rather slow and didn't really feel like she contributed to the overall success of the team. Alot of fights kind of felt like they hinged on whether the rest of the team could simply stall until Raquel got her turn, and situations where they couldn't stall really put pressure on the team.
Lilka - pretty much did her infinite healing/revival thing, one thing though was she got her Hi-Magic arround floor three AND THEN SHE COULDN'T USE IT. Lilka may not be the crazy mage that Cecilia is, but she has some really usefull Hi-Magic, except with Firefly she never got hit and therefore never gained FP to actually use those spells. There were a few times that I really wished that Lilka could have used reflect or slowdown instead of Cecilia.
Jane - did her job for the most part, having Jane on floor 4 with auto ID crits was amusing, managed to get her banned from firefly which is also amusing. I was surprised though to see people faster then her in the dungeon.
I think the next team I'll put up will be Cloud(4) + Sacred Slayer(2) + Jane(2) + Arnaud(2) + Mint(1)(Status Law sealstone?)
Still thinking about certain things, mostly just want to try out the Jane + Sacred Slayer combo, not really sure how best to fill out the remaining points with a team that can carry them to floor 4 to make the combo work.
Hmm, Sacred Slayer and Jane not being allowed together makes sense, guess I'll reserve Cloud + Nina2 + Lilka + Jane + Mint with Status Law instead.
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I think that there was some restriction on Sacred Slayer/Jane so that you couldn't get infinite turns.
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Was there? Scratch that idea then.
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Jane -> Sacred Slayer -> Raquel x2 -> ??? Win?
You could throw in the Violent Burst Law to Intrudex4 when Raquel gets a turn, but that's... sort of risky? Not sure. WA4 FP doesn't charge stupidly fast, WA:ACF does.
Sacred Slayer'd let Raquel double always? Yay. Throw in Aeris for INVINCIBILITY cheese around floor... 4? 3?
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Analysis, since the conclusion is foregone:
The team had surprisingly good firepower. Elemental Advance empowered Hewn spam was amazingly good at the start--trivializing Floor 1 and making Floor 2...not that bad despite fighting highly magic-resistant opponents.
My real disadvantage:
Lack of confidence in my team's nonmagical capabilities. Namely compared to Cecilia and W8. (And also uncertainty as to whether or not PS4 "gravity" was non-elemental enough to get through Boss Magus' shield). This made me pick the MT floor, which was likely my undoing in the end--if it wasn't Magus and the girls, then it's Alma. A distinct lack of revivers also hurt my team (Past Floor 3...only Rune and Selan, and by technical extension, Mime). Can't say how the team would've done later in, had I picked the ST floor. It might've gone farther, it might not have. I can't really say.
Ah well. This sort of thing is what the Dungeon's about. You do something, you lose, you figure out why you lost, you make a new team and try again. And that's precisely what I'm working on now.
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Okay, time for a two-fold scientific experiment.
Violent Burst Sealstone
Virginia Maxwell (4.0)
Geno (3.0)
Eileen (2.5)
Raja (1.0)
FFT Priest (0.5)
Simple idea, and essentially a more thought out remix of my last team. Basically, I'm wondering what can Violent Burst do to someone who gets more durable and damaging as her FP goes up, doesn't use it with her skillset sans Mystic and Summons (which are limited anyway) and starts with it at full - and what happens when you have competent support to make this even more brutal. The support is there to give variety and MT. Raja exists for healing galores and Copper Flesh cheese healing and FFT Priest uh revives in a pinch. Yeah.
EDIT3: Screw that, it's time to break out the Genos.
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This team makes me smile.
Jes' saying.
EDIT: Team modified. As much as I liked Speed? Raja and would recommend it, some hashing this out with SEKRIT CONSPIRATORIAR and I decided to go with this.
Team Elvis
Kyogre (3.5)
Maya (3.0)
Kyra (2.0)
Garnet (2.0)
Priest (0.5)
Multitarget Sealstone.
KyogreElvis takes the MT sealstone until Water Spout, abuses Water Pulse/Calm Mind/Scaryexy Face. Maya, Kyra, Garnet and FFT Priest are the groupies.
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For Neph: changed my team around. Current layout:
Sealstone: Violent Burst Law
Virginia (4.0)
Geno (3.0)
Eileen (2.5)
Raja (1.0)
FFT Priest (0.5)
I know this is basically my old team, but this is SCIENCE rather than variety hour. >_> Sorry, love you! <3
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KOSMOS (2.5)
Arc (3)
Yukiko (1.5)
Sasarai (2.5)
Marisa (1.5)
Screw trying to win, everything I make from now on is to make Snow headdesk
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Why is that head-desk worthy as a team~?
EDIT: Also, Neph, don't forget that my team has the Violent Burst Law sealstone.
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Wait, so under new Firefly rules, buffs don't take effect on the Firefly wielder? FFFFFFFFFF Screw the Firefly stone then!
Change to:
Jane (2.0)
Sasarai (2.5) w/ Resourceless
White Wizard (1.5)
Ryu4 (3.0)
Sacred Slayer (2.0)
My team had to get revised because buffs not working on Firefly users makes me go emo.
Strategy here is to have Sasarai nuke things while Jane ensures he goes first. Early floors has Ryu4 supporting with damage, White Wizard healing and reviving, Sasarai dealing brutal damage when he gets his turn (and he should be slightly above average speed on casting Earthquake?), and Sacred Slayer can give either Sasarai an extra turn so he can cast another spell (whoops doesn't have def-up, MT ice damage!) or give a turn to Ryu4 if he changed to Dragon for delicious 80% of Ryu's HP damage, which should be slightly above average but ITD? It ought to certainly hurt the enemies a lot and seal the deal!
My only major issues are with surviving the floors before 4. Somehow, I think I should pull through.
Let's do this~
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You know, early floors Ryu4 really, really sucks at doing things. >_>
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Once he gets Aura he should generally be OK, right? Besides, most the floor consists of... enemies who do not beat Sasarai before he unleashes his Earthquake. And Earthquake is generally OHKO damage on early floors.
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Well, Aura isn't great, either. Mostly durable and has okay damage, but that's not awesome when all you have for skillset is like fire magic. He gets it in floor 1, even, just... it is a poor dragon form. You're banking entirely on Sasarai OHKOing two-three floors all the time, and he doesn't get six charges of Earthquake until the -endgame-, let alone in the earlygame (you'll be able to skip a fight or two, but you do have to keep in mind he doesn't start with an S in Earth either, although he may get it by floor 2, although I'd wait until 3 if he wants both it and the A in Water >_>). That strategy is bound to run into problems.
EDIT: Well, he still has Aura Breath! But that suddenly gets a lot less interesting as MT when enemies start dropping into him, and god bless him if he faces Ice/Water damage.
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Sasarai has Resourceless, which means he can pretty much cast Earthquake once every fight. That should clean house generally. WHen he gets to his L4 charge and can cast that AND Earthquake all in turn 1 thanks to Sacred Slayer, he should be able to handle most damage dealing solo. Ryu4's just there to do backup damage and help with the early floors... admittedly, I'm not sure who I could use to effectively handle the first few floors. I'm open to suggestions.
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I'm mostly concerned because, while the Sasarai idea is actually pretty solid (elegant way to circumvent Suikocharges when you're banking on them for straight offense), your support is execrable. I don't think White Wizard is a good idea as your main healer (especially so if it's not DoS, FF1o WW is one of the worst healers ever), and it sounds like your second healer, Sacred Slayer... well, will be busy doing other things. Not to mention your third healer won't be able to -properly fulfill healing duties-, because Resourceless kills a healer's ability to stall dead with the restriction. He's also your other reviver. So yeah, if you get denied of your gimmick, you're blowing up pretty bad.
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I'm mostly concerned because, while the Sasarai idea is actually pretty solid (elegant way to circumvent Suikocharges when you're banking on them for straight offense), your support is execrable. I don't think White Wizard is a good idea as your main healer (especially so if it's not DoS, FF1o WW is one of the worst healers ever), and it sounds like your second healer, Sacred Slayer... well, will be busy doing other things. Not to mention your third healer won't be able to -properly fulfill healing duties-, because Resourceless kills a healer's ability to stall dead with the restriction. He's also your other reviver. So yeah, if you get denied of your gimmick, you're blowing up pretty bad.
It's DoS White Wizard, not FF1o White Wizard.
Sacred Slayer will, indeed, be busy doing other things.
Resourceless -only- affects Sasarai, so if you mean him as third healer... he's busy doing other things.
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Yes, and you can see where the trouble lies. Having only one dedicated healer is bad news, especially when the near-entirety of your team has either durability or speed issues. (Although DoS WW makes it less bad) You also have essentially one reviver (Sasarai doesn't count as one due to both it being very limited and... well... Resourceless). The team will struggle a lot once you hit grind-heavy floors, and Ryu's dragon forms can't even be healed by dungeon-available means outside full heals.
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Nephrite told me Sasarai's spells have 1 charge each from the moment he has access to them─so if someone dies, he can still use both Land of Eternity and Mother Ocean.
I'm more worried about the pre-Floor 4 floors. I take Sasarai as having access to L4 charges by that time, too, so it should all fall into place. Hopefully.
But yes, I do want to generally avoid anything that can survive Sasarai. Teepo + Myria fight for example. >_> Heck even the Sephiroth fight. ffff @ flying things.
If I could squeeze more revival in, I'd love to, but I don't think I can afford to do that. :(
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I think you actually can, but you need to get rid of Ryu. Although the way your party is built, the minute you meet magical spoilers you're completely dead - like in the Magus/Marle/Lucca fight at floor 3. I honestly think you probably shouldn't bother with Jane either, you can use those extra 5 points from dumping Ryu/Jane into something with more synergy and survivability.
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I've decided on the core of my team, but I'm having trouble deciding on what to do with the rest of my points and which sealstone to choose. Here's who I've already picked.
Deis 2 (3.5)
Emily (3)
Jerin (3)
I've already thought up a couple of options for the rest of my team, but they both leave a couple weaknesses.
Option A: Bowser with Speed? sealstone (1.0)
Priest (.5)
Obtion B: Brey (1.0)
Nina 3 (.5) Elemental Advance sealstone.
The idea for the team is blitzing. The core of my team is already really good at it and I would like to support characters to add to it. Option A is the more defensive of the two. It has 2 revivers and Bowser’s Terrorize skill can help to compensate for their below average defense. Bowser, Jerin, and Deis can do a little over PCHP is they all use MT skills off of above average speed. Also if Deis uses Attack Up on Emily and Bowser Terrorizes the enemy, that could potentially be the most damage the dungeon has seen in one attack.
Option B is pure offense. All of the characters are above average speed and can rack up a 75% boost on ice before most enemies can move. If the enemy resists Ice, then they can still boost fire up to 50% turn 1. Also Brey’s buffs should be incredibly useful. Sometimes Deis may not have time to attack up Emily so Brey Twin Hits her instead, and Speed Up on this team is brutal. Unfortunately, Jerin is the only healer on the team and she doesn’t get revival until floor 3 or 4.
If anyone has any advice on which of the two would work better or even other ideas for the 1.5 points they would be greatly appreciated.
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I'd recommend the former option just for the second reviver, but Bowser/Speed? accentuates what blitzing you do have so well it's not funny. So A definitely from me.
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One major problem with Bowser is that even with Speed? he's still slower than Emily and Deis so they can't take advantage of Terrorize until turn 2. A's better prepared if the enemy gets a turn, but B's better at preventing them from getting a turn in the first place.
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I don't think that's much of an issue anyway, Deis+Terrorize tends to mop up plenty and trivializes many enemies.
EDIT: And Jerin? Christ, the high-speed MT is FIERCE within this one.
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Belated team assessment. My team was based mostly around "work well with Jessica" and "underpriced characters." Versatility was generally the goal... a whole bunch of nice, small interactions and options, but there wasn't one overriding combo the team was based around setting it up every time. I made this team shortly after a bunch of characters dropped in cost - notably, everyone but Jessica got dropped half a point from their earlier prices. Firefly was just tossed in 'cause, basically. Figured that after a cute theme team (my first team was 4/5 Lunar characters), I'd just go for dungeon power, though I guess you could scrounge up something of a theme based on the 3/5 princess ratio, and an aristocrat & a space elf are sorta close.
Jessica was interesting. I was relying on her damage more than I expected at first, but since her damage is great, that's not really a problem. It's certainly the one area where she's notably better than Rika, who always seemed cheatily good and annoyingly awesome to throw into any team. Jessica does require a bit more careful use than Rika to make the most of her... Accelerate not being the busted Evade booster that Saner is means that Jessica's opening move varied a lot. Accelerate for long games, Magic Barrier against status whores, and often damage for blitzes.
Lyn was chosen to combo with Jessica, mostly. Oomph was another edge Jessica had on Rika, and if we assume that Lyn does average damage on a single strike, being able to crank out 1.6 PCHP damage on a single target is pretty awesome. Kinda thought I'd be using that more, but often it was faster to just have Jessica kill things directly. On Floor 6 and beyond, Purim has Moon Energy for making Lyn into a ridiculous constant-critical machine, and when Jessica was busy, Rena always had Growth as backup buff. (And for those who take all FE characters as average init., this would then allow Lyn to use Moon-Energy powered crits on her first turn... a cute bonus.) Anyway, teams need to have SOME source of physical beatdown lest they get owned by the likes of Marle, and Lyn / Jessica did the job pretty well. She proved a pretty cool holder of Firefly as well.
Garnet was my mage. An early reviver and MT healer who isn't actually THAT frail? Sign me up, especially when she starts getting a good magical beatdown later, too. Garnet's speed was pretty handy, as well. The two-turn buffs get mocked in the DL normal, but in the Dungeon, two turns is an eternity. And with all the backup healing, it wouldn't even be a problem for Garnet to spend half her teams recasting cheap buffs if it came to it. It was also pretty nice that Protect / Shell were nicely different from Purim's Defender and Rena's Protection / Anti. The others were stat buffers - Defender gets owned by attacks that ignore target defense, for example - while Protect / Shell just halved everything. But more importantly, that means they probably stack, subject to interpretation.
Purim was mostly there to do broken things. She's really psychotically good and probably a 3.5 pick to me. Average speed is really the only problem, and Accelerate might (?) help with that anyway depending on interpretations. So yeah, she screws over the many status-vulnerable PCs, has cheap healing, elemental sabers, decent damage, the ability to charge up a super-attack in event of stallers... good times. And that's ignoring her famed defensive buffing.
Rena... well, she's an undercosted heal battery (.5 points?). Who also has some cheaty elemental resists, blocks ID, and has some okay buffs. Rena certainly did help for making sure that for long slogs I wasn't likely to run out of juice - most notable on Floor 6, probably, where having a lot of backup healers makes sure that the burden is evenly spread.
Pretty happy with the team, really. It's too bad I didn't get to see how it would have done on the very late Dungeon floors - Jessica is actually quite good here, since Floor 7's Magic Burst is basically "skip target ridiculously crazy fight." The later floors tend to toss out more full heals, and plus, since Jessica regens MP, it's possible to do things like "status out the last enemy, let Jessica regen back to full MP." I can't really have any complaints because, well, I personally had a sincere vote for my team on Floor 6 which I still think was for the most part easy.
When I was working out a lot of the fights, I was often impressed at how some battles which looked scary at first glance turned out to be pushovers. "Oh, wait, so this character has this one ability that mocks their offense" or "wait, their durability is too bad, they get wiped out before they even go." So the team was definitely better when I expected. Since Neph isn't likely to have too many above-average speed MT OHKOs (the only one I saw was Floor 6 if a team let Zera live - Ba-Boom! + Demon Horde Slash), spamming MT defensive buffs and healing is just a fantastic strategy for many, many, many Dungeon fights. I had figured Floors 3-4 would be the toughest... Garnet would be the only reviver (possibly Floor 5 as well, since Rena's Raise Dead there is borderline), and some of the more broken defensive options wouldn't be available yet (like Lucid Barrier). Firefly helped cover for this pretty well, though, and I'm not sure it was even needed.
An interesting counterfactual is what would have happened without Firefly. Tentatively, I think I'd actually still pass most of the floors. Floors 3-4 would still be exciting... but not too bad? Amusingly enough, this just means that Garnet is the "new" Firefly target, and while she's a suboptimal one, lots of my defensive buffs were MT, and the ST ones could just be piled on Garnet. So I think the team would have hustled it out anyway. The later floors, though, I suspect Firefly would have came into play much more. Floor 6 was where Firefly was really helpful... forcing Royce to waste her Firebird on Lyn rather than Jessica was crucial, and it also obviated any question of needing to kill Rofel since if he did get a turn, all he'd nail would be an extra Lyn sword.
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Team revision! Thanks Tai.
Valkyrie Lenneth (3.5)
Sasarai (2.5) w/ Resourceless
Naoto Shirogane (1.5)
Tia (1.0)
Sacred Slayer (2.0)
No Jane means Sasarai won't be blasting off at high speed, but Lenneth with her above average defenses and HP will be the most reliable Revival and Heals! Naoto is hyped for good damage early on, so uh, let's buy that hype? Tia is Tia and does a lot of speedy tricks off of assy durability. Also Revival.
Sacred Slayer still Turn Shifts, but now has more viable options for the TS. This should reduce the reliance on Sasarai a little.
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The main problem I see is where will you drop your resourceless Sealstone once Sasarai starts getting - and needing - to use his spells more than once per fight. All your other PCs except maaaaaaaaybe Naoto (who isn't a good choice herself. OPB non-perfect ID? Christ) make horrible Resourceless users because they have either decently deep or practically endless resource pools as is. I'd probably reshuffle a bit.
EDIT: The team also sports absolutely awful durability, but that goes without saying and you're banking on reviving things constantly if you're getting hurt instead, since Lenneth is neat that way.
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If Sas needs to use LoE more than once in a fight I'm screwed either way.
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I don't even mean LoE. Earthquake is faster and more efficient than LoE in many cases, and there may be fights where he wants to use it more than once, and there are occasions where his MT healing may serve you better than his offense - like when you want your healing to come as fast as possible multiple times (L2 Kindness Rain off an A is very fast and heals status as well). The fact that he can double as a powerful healer, if not too deep in resources, is why I tend to think Sas isn't a great idea to Resourceless in the long term. Geddoe makes a far better choice for it.
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Changing the team I'm reserving until everyone else finishes to Tidus(3.5) + Raquel(3.0) + Arnaud(2.0) + Lilka(2.0) + Meru(.5) with Violent burst.
Should be decently amusing to see how bad it fails.
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And once my team falls (I expect this to take a bit), new team will be...
Deis2 (3.5)
Fogel (3.0)
Jerin (3.0)
Adray (1.0)
Priest (0.5)
MT sealstone. No points for guessing who it'll be on most the time. >_>
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Glen: Lilka + VBL is pretty similar to Aika + VBL in that you have to be careful that she's losing one of her really useful aspects of being 'resourceless'. Only it's a much bigger deal for Lilka as she uses way more FP on far more versatile skills than Aika.
Aika's moves are limited to damage, healing, and Delta Shield. Lilka's generally all over the place with versatility, and there's a few moves (like Reflect, perhaps?) that are really useful, but destroy her resources. It just strikes me as a dangerous combo, though an interesting one since VBL teams tend to be about blitzing anyway.
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Eh, the team is more about the blitz then anything, Violent burst puts Lilka at 100 FP, and the only reason she would ever use it is if she needed to mystic a life orb or holy grail for full party heal or death protection. It does have the plus side of letting Lilka actually use her Hi magic which she gets around floor three when she gets it. Most of her Hi-Spells don't have much of a practical use in the dungeon simply because she can't use them without having to waste turns building FP. Being able to use spells like Slowdown as early as floor 3 has some pretty decent applications.
More of a "what if" team then anything, I basically want to see if I can get to the point where Tidus can initiative Haste Raquel who then proceeds to activate Rapid attack off 130% speed to end up at something like 200% speed, the thought of it happening was amusing enough to put this team together, and then I kind of just extended it to a team that just messes with the enemies speed while Raquel kills stuff >.>.
*Hypes three different game slow spells stacking <.<*
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Personally, I just like the idea of Tidus Overdrive OPF plus 4 shots of Raquel Intrude damage off of Tidus-hasted speed. Not really sure what Arnaud's doing, though. And you heard my thoughts on Lilka, though she's not -bad- for what you're going for. Meru's also a good pick for the price here, as she'll get to use Dragoon form on command until she runs out of meters (she would get 5 or so full meters?). But she's basically just a healer until she gets BSD. Decently fast though? And status-immune in a pinch. You could drop her though if you need someone a half-point more expensive to replace Arnaud or Lilka?
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Arnaud is mostly there for slow and Rampage drive, lack of games and whatnot kind of limited me on who I could pick for healing, Lilka was my best choice for a healer so I went with Arnaud for the magic damage to take care of rampage since I'm essentially running with 1 healer/reviver for most the dungeon.
It's more of a for fun team, I would not be surprised to see it fail horribly. I would probably be just as well off picking another healer with some kind of magic damage but I can't really think of one from a game I've played for that point cost -.-.
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If you can swing a Lufia2 character, that's a really good healing option right there, not to mention you can take advantage of VBL on their IP moves.
I'd recommend Selan, who can do offense and healing pretty well, and is about as durable as Lilka/Arnaud. Tia might work if Selan's too expensive, but make sure you pick someone else to help out that durability...
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I wouldn't say that ... Blue Sea Dragon is the most powerful attack in the game until DDD and Haschel w/th Destroyer Mace (yes even stronger than 160% Psyche Bomb X though I don't know about turbo fire Psyche Bomb X) so even 50% of that is pretty damn scary off Meru's MAG and cheap for the MP cost (Freezing Ring) Plus there is the MP variant in Diamond Dust though that's more expensive. Of course I'm going by in game here where even half a Blue Sea Dragon is quite brutal on LoD's spectacular enemy magic defence >_> Also where Meru doesn't have the MP issues she has in the dungeon.
I've have loved to use Meru myself ... just didn't cut it for F1 ... not considering all the other stuff I need and the cost of keeping in the core of my team (Maria + Peppita duo) It would be nice to see others using her with their teams and ideas =-)
Tai - Nice to see someone give Adray a whirl~
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I'd recommend Selan, who can do offense and healing pretty well, and is about as durable as Lilka/Arnaud. Tia might work if Selan's too expensive, but make sure you pick someone else to help out that durability...
Selan's got durability issues as well and her healing's not good until Champion.
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CT: Yeah. Was looking for someone who got revival (even if lateish), healing and competent damage; he fit the bill nicely.
Original draft of the team had Meru because I mixed up who got Items and who got the Dragoon Spirit to start, though I could rely on Meru as an item spammer off that speed. Sadly, not so applicable and I need a second reviver early, so Priest gets a slot on my team again.
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Also, version 1.1, updated with new Sealstones and newer choices.
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I wouldn't say that ... Blue Sea Dragon is the most powerful attack in the game until DDD and Haschel w/th Destroyer Mace (yes even stronger than 160% Psyche Bomb X though I don't know about turbo fire Psyche Bomb X) so even 50% of that is pretty damn scary off Meru's MAG and cheap for the MP cost (Freezing Ring) Plus there is the MP variant in Diamond Dust though that's more expensive. Of course I'm going by in game here where even half a Blue Sea Dragon is quite brutal on LoD's spectacular enemy magic defence >_> Also where Meru doesn't have the MP issues she has in the dungeon.
I've have loved to use Meru myself ... just didn't cut it for F1 ... not considering all the other stuff I need and the cost of keeping in the core of my team (Maria + Peppita duo) It would be nice to see others using her with their teams and ideas =-)
Tai - Nice to see someone give Adray a whirl~
Blue Sea Dragon at the very least is less powerful than Miranda's final, given the same mult and better magic.
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Just looking at the reading of the new Firefly and wondering if it would null Arc's Invincible? Considering how limited the move is and that it's Arc's big trick (that he doesn't get for a few floors), I was just curious.
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It would, yes. Multitarget would make it reduce all damage by 50%.
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Just looking at the reading of the new Firefly and wondering if it would null Arc's Invincible? Considering how limited the move is and that it's Arc's big trick (that he doesn't get for a few floors), I was just curious.
Actually, Arc's money move (both in-game and in-dungeon, honestly <_<) is Weak Enemy. Considering he gets Invincible at like endgame and it only affects himself and he doesn't have the resources to spam it... yeah. Dungeon-wise, Arc works mostly as someone who dabbles in a bit of everything (passable GT healing, passable GT magic, acceptable physicals) while having a very good debuff.
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It would, yes. Multitarget would make it reduce all damage by 50%.
Quick question concerning Arc, because I'm thinking of using him. With the MT sealstone, would Weak Enemy's debuff effect be decreased to 32.5%, or would it remain at 65%, and the hit rate decreased to 50%? Or both?
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Uh, I'd say the former. I'm not sure it's a good idea, though, given it already has AoE...
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Uh, I'd say the former. I'm not sure it's a good idea, though, given it already has AoE...
Oh, does it? I thought most of Arc's attacks were ST.
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Stat downs take an effect halving, status takes an accuracy halving. There's some borderline stuff but.
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Uh, I'd say the former. I'm not sure it's a good idea, though, given it already has AoE...
Oh, does it? I thought most of Arc's attacks were ST.
AtL2 spells often are GT-heavy.
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Blue Sea Dragon at the very least is less powerful than Miranda's final, given the same mult and better magic.
It isn't actually.
The listed modifiers for Sharanda are wrong (like 175% for Red Eye Dart lol no) LoD board has already done extensive testing on this and it was something I noticed myself when Meru was doing more damage to a ST than Miranda was. I've tested it extensively since for both girls under various conditions (Special, Power Up, Power Down, PU + PD, etc) and Meru definitely has a higher mult than Miranda does. I believe Miranda's is actually 75% MT.
So yeah despite having a lower magic stat Meru does wind up more damaging than Sharanda.
Before I discovered this I used to play the game using the Power Up + Down combo w/th White Silver Dragoon because I too believed she had the most powerful dragon summon. That's all changed now.
On the other hand WSD still has MT worth and that's more important in the dungeon :)
Edit - Aha found it! Ok here is a Damage Thingies I did for the LoD board -
Testing done vs Divine Dragon Spirit w/th Miranda and Meru's MATK both at 213
Miranda*
P Bomb X Base Damage -2291
W Silver Dragon Base Damage - 1899
W Silver Dragon w/th Power Up - 2847
W Silver Dragon w/th Power Down - 2847
W Silver Dragon Special w/th Power Up + Down - 5697
*Meru
P Bomb X Base Damage - 2324
Blue Sea Dragon Base Damage - 3040
Blue Sea Dragon w/th Power Up - 4560
Blue Sea Dragon w/th Power Down - 4560
Blue Sea Dragon Special w/th Power Up + Down - 9120
Also Miranda does not score 9999 vs Zackwell o_o I was kind of disappointed~
Meru's P Bomb X is slightly higher because I got a better % from tapping the button during the attack item power up phase >_> Also Meru does higher damage vs Zackwell despite Miranda hitting weakness. Not 9999 but yeah.
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Hmm... time to have a go at the fabled "ignore magic" team which has been attempted several times, but I seem to recall generally failing. Chris is too expensive and gets her Silent Lake too late, and checking, Bartz's Void doesn't work on all bosses, so that's out.... that leaves Aika.
Orlandu (3.5)
FFT Chemist (3)
Aika (2)
Gilder (2)
Onix (.5, Firefly)
Aika stops teh magickz, Gilder stopz the status, Onix stops the beatz while Orlandu dropz 'em. Chemist has no spare z's and mopes.
This team is screwwwwwwwwed if Chemist dies, admittedly, which is a problem. Luckily, with both Gilder & FFT status resistance, status shouldn't be too big a deal, and MT physical OHKOs should hopefully be rare, with Auto-Potion covering less than OHKO physical damage. A bigger problem is that if Onix does die, he'll be back in the next battle with crap HP, meaning Aika will have to Sacrulen quickly rather than Delta Shield or else concede another quick Onix wipe.
Might modify this later (suggestions welcome), but should be good for now. Hopes are not terribly high, but seems like it might be fun.
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I don't think having Gilder and Aika in the same thing is a horribly awesome idea, given how the majority of status you face in the dungeon is magical to begin with. And he sounds underwhelming besides Aura of Denial, which means that you're basically throwing two points away.
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That team has zero direct offense besides for Cid, who is ST. You're not going to get far there.
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Jo'ou: Well, the logic behind Gilder... IIRC, people were failing Aika teams on Floor 3 a lot is my recollection due to SP concerns over whether she could use Delta Shield. Gilder guarantees that she can spam Delta Shield from Floor 3 on.... actually maybe even Floor 2 depending on Moonberries. Will have to look it up. Moreover, shared SP means that they can both actually get to use their damage moves at a relevant pace in fights where blitzing is necessary. I'm surprised more teams don't pair them, actually. If I did replace Gilder, I'd want someone who can ideally status cure Chemist in emergencies (Gilder has Curia) and either has great Physical Defense (Gilder has this) or draining (Orlandu) to survive MT physicals. Not sure I see any good replacements at the 2.0 level - the closest is Kyra, I think?
super: Do agree that the offense level is low, but the hope is that defensively the team holds out - against MT physical damage (the team's biggest problem), Onix still has awesome defense (especially post-Harden), Orlandu can drain, Chemist has Auto-Potion, and that leaves Aika & Gilder to chug Chemist's tossed potions. Gilder can defend if Aura of Denial isn't needed and Aika can heal if Delta Shield isn't necessary. Against ST physical damage, hardened Onix chugging potions. Magic damage eats Delta Shield. Stallers & buffers... well, Gunslinger's nearly a OHKO and hits a huge area that's basically MT, and Orlandu breaks the equipment of PC stallers.
Hmm. Worth working things out somewhat, though. As a random example... take the Floor 4 boss fight, Lufia 2 Erim / Lucia (S3) / Barbariccia (FF4 DS) / Rydia. Rydia & Mage Lucia are getting totally walled, and a Hardened Onix easily shrugs off Barb & Whip Lucia's attacks. Dark Fry is somewhat vexing due to being physical, but Erim just gets blitzed out by Gilder / Orlandu. Flip side, Erim does need to die in two turns, since Dark Fry probably 2HKOs Aika and Chemist ideally is only flipping potions to Onix. And if Onix came into the match Phoenix Downed with 8 HP, there'd be problems. Hrmm.
I did a theme team my first time, I was trying to "win" my second time, figured I'd go back to style for the third. That said, effectiveness is good, and I'm not getting in again for a looong while, so plenty of time to think about options, since the team really does want Onix to never die and that seems the main way it can lose. My kingdom for a Life2 spell...
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Jo'ou: Well, the logic behind Gilder... IIRC, people were failing Aika teams on Floor 3 a lot is my recollection due to SP concerns over whether she could use Delta Shield.
Well. In all honesty? If a team's only argument to beat floor 3 in a team with Aika heavily relied on Delta Shield, I don't think the issue lies within Aika, but within the team. I remember most Aika teams to be lacking in synergy as well, which wouldn't have helped matters. Tonfa managed to do a very effective team involving Aika, and that one went all the way to floor 8, though, but his gameplan was a fair deal more elaborate than "lol immuen majek" - which is the main concern to look at. Mostly, from a glance, Gilder exacerbates the team's lacking offense and doesn't mitigate the problems that stem from this any better than Aika does support-wise, which means he hampers the team long-term - especially given how your team only has -one dedicated healer with easy access-, whose healing will plummet in restoration by floor 5, and he's entirely ST to boot. A support-heavy team can't live with that little healing and revival, it gets strung by the very stalling fights it wanted to excel at. Gilder+Aika might be an interesting idea, but I think it needs stronger allies to work there, and the way the dungeon works doesn't always encourage pairing people from the same game together due to concerns that didn't exist in their home games.
You might be looking at this from the wrong angle, methinks, especially considering how many big-time threats in those early problem floors don't lie specifically on status - for an instance, Gilder with Aura of Denial wouldn't help against the first FFT fight on the MT floor, nor would he be any good against the CT mage fight (one of their big deals is the fact that MT Haste+Magus+Lucca 2HKO offense = gg if you let -that- going. Orlandu on your team specifically would handle that far better, but this has no bearing on Aika+Gilder synergy), and I'm figuring that SoA characters are just impressively useless on the ST floor (Delta Shield losing its MT effect? Oh dear god). Gimmicks are more of a helpful little boost than something that you should revolve your party around, unless you have a really killer setup for that.
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I want to chime in here and perhaps clarify the new Firefly stone since your team seems to be riding on part of a clause I didn't realize I needed to stipulate:
Firefly: One member of your team becomes the target of all Single target attacks. This effect will override any elemental or status protection or resistance (Reflect, etc. also do not work). The target of this effect may not have damage to them reduced in any way; in addition, revival effects take effect on the character with this sealstone after the current fight is completed. This effect may not be used on Worker 8 or Jane.
So, as a reminder: Delta Shield would provide magic immunity to everyone on your team except Onix. In addition, Harden wouldn't do anything. I will re-word this to make it more clear and clarify that immunity effects also don't work.
My apologies.
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I figure I might as well post this now even though it's going to be a while till I get in again.
Deis 2 (3.5)
Emily (3.0)
Jerin (3.0)
Bowser (1.0) with Speed ? sealstone.
Priest (.5)
Strengths: Blitzing, the team is very good at it. Deis, Emily and Jerin start a battle off nicely by smashing one opponent and spreading a solid amount of MT damage on all the others. Bowser then comes in and terrorizes the remaining ones which prepares for a brutal second round. All of this is off of significantly above average speed. They have a couple of other tricks too beside damage such as accurate instant death, confusion, Mirror, and the brutality that is BoF2 attack up. Here's a couple of numbers to think about.
Jerin's physical after attack up: 1.6 average damage.
The combined MT the team can pump out round one off of above average speed: 2.7 average
and the big one, Emily's damage after attack up: 5.5 average
Weaknesses: The priest is the only reviver until floor 3 or floor 4. Fortunately, the team's damge is so good they should be able to smash through a couple of fights without a reviver. Also, the team obliterates floor 3 which helps to get Jerin's revival. The team lacks durability, but they aren't really designed to be that durable. Terrorize and Mirror help to lessen this somewhat, but durability is still a potential problem. Finally, if they make it to the boss fight battered and almost out of resources, a mirrored, attack upped Emily can probably beat a good number of the boss floors if she had to.
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I'm pretty interested in seeing how far that team goes. The blitzing potential is utterly nuts.
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Which Deis? I presume 2, but.
EDIT: Yep, you say 2 explicitly later. Yeah, should be pretty shiny - also looking forward to it.
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Uh yeah looks like the point is moot then, scrap that team. I will say that this seems like it may have nerfed Firefly TOO much; the delayed revival is pretty brutal already. Back to the drawing board. Though... from the phrasing, it sounds like FFT Monk's Hamedo still works (65% of the time, melee only), since it cancels the enemy attack rather than reduces damage? Just want to confirm / deny that.
If a team's only argument to beat floor 3 in a team with Aika heavily relied on Delta Shield, I don't think the issue lies within Aika, but within the team.
Huh? This I'd dramatically disagree with. The Dungeon is built around teamwork; rather obviously, if you disable one cog in the engine, the whole thing can fall apart. The price of not being able to magically heal your team is pretty strong; presumably you're using inefficient item heals to get around it. If you're accepting this inefficiency but not getting anything in return, then your team will fail. It'd be like saying that if Cloud lost his materia and the team lost as a result, then the problem was with the team. Tonfa's team had Cover-Cloud as a main part of its strategy, and thus Aika's poor physical durability wasn't a big problem; take that away and the team would be really awful. But this is silly because he DID have Cover, from Floor 1 even, and he relied on it heavily to beat a ton of Floors. Nothing wrong with that.
This is in fact the exact reason I said Chris wouldn't cut it- she gets Silent Lake way too late (same problem with Beecham). If you're building a team to abuse Silent Lake / magic voiding (or any gimmick), but it doesn't have access to said gimmick for a long while, then there's a really good likelihood the team will wipe before it ever gets to play with its shiny toys.
(EDIT: If you "disable one engine in the cog?" That's one hell of a cog if it's made of multiple engines.)
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Uh yeah looks like the point is moot then, scrap that team. I will say that this seems like it may have nerfed Firefly TOO much; the delayed revival is pretty brutal already. Back to the drawing board. Though... from the phrasing, it sounds like FFT Monk's Hamedo still works (65% of the time, melee only), since it cancels the enemy attack rather than reduces damage? Just want to confirm / deny that.
If a team's only argument to beat floor 3 in a team with Aika heavily relied on Delta Shield, I don't think the issue lies within Aika, but within the team.
Huh? This I'd dramatically disagree with. The Dungeon is built around teamwork; rather obviously, if you disable one engine in the cog, the whole thing can fall apart.
That is obviously true. However, I said only argument for exactly the reason you're trying to highlight: a design in the dungeon is geared around teamwork, but not a single aspect. A good team is built on having multiple cogs that can still support each other if one falls apart, so that it requires multiple (or even all!) of them to get crumbled to truly put the team in a bad situation - alternatively, those cogs are really good at stopping each other from getting ganked. If they often rely on a single cog to do all the working to actually function -at all- (which having only one argument revolving around only one PC while the rest of the party is irrelevant often indicates), then that's not a good team. You're right that the Dungeon revolves around teamwork, but heavily relying on a single character for a specific strategy without having covers provided by the overall teamwork is a very obvious sign that your team synergy is lacking.
I find funny how often we end up arguing over things we agree on, Snowfire. >_>
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I want to chime in here and perhaps clarify the new Firefly stone since your team seems to be riding on part of a clause I didn't realize I needed to stipulate:
Firefly: One member of your team becomes the target of all Single target attacks. This effect will override any elemental or status protection or resistance (Reflect, etc. also do not work). The target of this effect may not have damage to them reduced in any way; in addition, revival effects take effect on the character with this sealstone after the current fight is completed. This effect may not be used on Worker 8 or Jane.
So, as a reminder: Delta Shield would provide magic immunity to everyone on your team except Onix. In addition, Harden wouldn't do anything. I will re-word this to make it more clear and clarify that immunity effects also don't work.
My apologies.
Question! How does Silent Lake work with this? Seeing as it's not immunity so much as a field effect. Still blocks all magic, right?
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Well, they can't -cast- the magic they'd use to target (if they could, it'd deal damage as usual!). The immunity stems from a different source. The physicals are still going to deal damage as normal.
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Okay, awesome, just wanted to double-check that one. ;p
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Uh yeah looks like the point is moot then, scrap that team. I will say that this seems like it may have nerfed Firefly TOO much; the delayed revival is pretty brutal already. Back to the drawing board. Though... from the phrasing, it sounds like FFT Monk's Hamedo still works (65% of the time, melee only), since it cancels the enemy attack rather than reduces damage? Just want to confirm / deny that.
If a team's only argument to beat floor 3 in a team with Aika heavily relied on Delta Shield, I don't think the issue lies within Aika, but within the team.
Huh? This I'd dramatically disagree with. The Dungeon is built around teamwork; rather obviously, if you disable one cog in the engine, the whole thing can fall apart. The price of not being able to magically heal your team is pretty strong; presumably you're using inefficient item heals to get around it. If you're accepting this inefficiency but not getting anything in return, then your team will fail. It'd be like saying that if Cloud lost his materia and the team lost as a result, then the problem was with the team. Tonfa's team had Cover-Cloud as a main part of its strategy, and thus Aika's poor physical durability wasn't a big problem; take that away and the team would be really awful. But this is silly because he DID have Cover, from Floor 1 even, and he relied on it heavily to beat a ton of Floors. Nothing wrong with that.
This is in fact the exact reason I said Chris wouldn't cut it- she gets Silent Lake way too late (same problem with Beecham). If you're building a team to abuse Silent Lake / magic voiding (or any gimmick), but it doesn't have access to said gimmick for a long while, then there's a really good likelihood the team will wipe before it ever gets to play with its shiny toys.
(EDIT: If you "disable one engine in the cog?" That's one hell of a cog if it's made of multiple engines.)
You may be right. We'll see if people still go for it and if people die horribly because of it. Yes, Hamedo still works because it's evasion, but don't make me nerf that too. :)
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Jo'ou: Well, I like a lot of little synergies - I would argue that my previous team did that - but nothing wrong with hanging your hat on one big trick, either. And "immune to magic" is a hell of a trick... if you can get it going in time. Which was my concern.
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Also, idly. I wonder what the cheapest team that can beat at least the first two floors of the Dungeon is? Assuming you're somewhat liberal with handing out crests.... Lenneth / Lilka strikes me as not too bad a team for half the price of your average dungeon team (5.5/11). Lenneth can go on healing herself forever while Lilka plays that slow buffing game of hers, and they can each revive each other. Status is a bit of a problem, though.
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In all fairness? My ideal team honestly would be one with a ton of little synergies -and- at least one big trump card, generally speaking. I like to think it's possible to get something that good with strong team design.
EDIT: Hmmm. That team -might- be able to handle the dungeon's first floor, but it'd be a pretty long ordeal (Lenneth doesn't start godly at damage and all, and she hits a straight slump in offense by floor 5 due to DL-legal swords sucking ass until she gets a claim to that Glance Reviver). IF Rampage Drive is capable of OHKOing Lilka, though, the team is in deep. On the other hand, this may not matter at all if it has an elemental weakness, because Lilka can hit that and coast.
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I'm pretty interested in seeing how far that team goes. The blitzing potential is utterly nuts.
Thanks, I've had the idea for Deis/Emily idea for a while but got distracted by a different idea. I think the team is pretty similar to Uno's team. It has one really good, fast damage dealer and someone who can buff it to obscene levels. I think his team had more ST damage and durability, but I think my team is faster and has better MT and healing.
I'll probably need some help deciding on which floor to choose though. I'm pretty sure I want to go with the bosses for floor 2 and the MT floor 3, but after that I have no idea. Of course this is all assuming that Nephrite doesn't change up the floors by the time it gets in.
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Ditching Lenneth, Mia + Status Law to -
Edit: Albert, Dart, Meru, Sharanda, Rose w/th Synergy Sealstone.
Please do not kill me!
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Oh screw it, Thunder Wave hype is go. Sacrifices damage dealing for a supporter who has... beneficial tricks for the team.
Valkyrie Lenneth (3.5)
Sasarai (2.5) w/ Resourceless
Pikachu (1.5)
Tia (1.5)
Sacred Slayer (2.0)
I think my reliance on Sasarai may well ruin my chances for this team, and Resourceless may well cause my downfall. But hey, experiments time.
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Request: Someone make a team with Ditto and the Multitarget Sealstone. Thanks.
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I'll bite. Tomorrow anyway. Want to chat with Tai about it, and he's not around right now.
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Request: Someone make a team with Ditto and the Multitarget Sealstone. Thanks.
Multitarget Transform - the entire party becomes Jogurt.
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(NOT A REAL TEAM)
Tidus (3.5)
Ryu2 (3.5)
Sacred Slayer (2)
DoS White Wizard (1.5)
Ditto (.5, Multitarget)
The goal is to quickly glitch the dungeon. A hasted Sacred Slayer Turnshifting up Ditto should draw most matches quite quickly as Ditto becomes approximately half the characters on the field simultaneously, whatever that means. Failing that, Dittoing Ryu2 for 5 G. Dragons as noted in chat. If we throw out the sealstone silliness and assume this team somehow hit Floor 6.... initiative Hastega + Turn Shifting means that Ditto's G. Dragon is probably beating out average speed opponents!
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The goal is to quickly glitch the dungeon. A hasted Sacred Slayer Turnshifting up Ditto should draw most matches quite quickly as Ditto becomes approximately half the characters on the field simultaneously, whatever that means.
I-I... I'm gonna go sleep, I might edit in an actual sentence to voice my disbelief to this hilarious incomprehensibility tomorrow. ;p
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(NOT A REAL TEAM)
Tidus (3.5)
Ryu2 (3.5)
Sacred Slayer (2)
DoS White Wizard (1.5)
Ditto (.5, Multitarget)
The goal is to quickly glitch the dungeon. A hasted Sacred Slayer Turnshifting up Ditto should draw most matches quite quickly as Ditto becomes approximately half the characters on the field simultaneously, whatever that means. Failing that, Dittoing Ryu2 for 5 G. Dragons as noted in chat. If we throw out the sealstone silliness and assume this team somehow hit Floor 6.... initiative Hastega + Turn Shifting means that Ditto's G. Dragon is probably beating out average speed opponents!
...
<3
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Can that team actually beat Floor 1? Hmm...
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Nope! No offensive magic!
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Ditto MT Transforms the entire team into Rampage Drive
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Ditto turning into Ryu2 for five shots of G.Dragon is...
ohgod... I'd allow it?!
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Ditto has to make it alive to Rampage Drive first!
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okay, here's my amazing Ditto team, Tai and Snow approved.
Team Infinite Ditto Loop
Fogel (3.5)
Aeonless Yuna (3.5)
Eileen (2.5)
Tia (1.0)
Ditto(holding Quick Powder)(w/MT Sealstone) (.5)
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Thumbs up, soldier.
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Okay, I think I'm going to go ahead and trade out Yulie (2.0) for Tear (1.0) and Aeris (1.0).
Getting an extra warm body in the mix is always a pretty decent idea, and this gives me more healers. I also get some more direct offense with Tear's offensive spells (and if necessary, she has some passable physical chains). Also, a OPF shot of her Overlimit which she would have probably never seen anyway. Innocent Shine by itself isn't too special, but she can combo it from one of her strongest spells or FOF-cancel into it for one shot of decent OHKO damage. Not until Floor 3/4, though, when the Mystic Artes become available. Before that, she can blow her Overlimit meter on faster casting times/increased damage for healing and offensive magic. If she makes it to the floor where she gets her Pendant, she's actually a pretty respectable Healer-Mage. If only she was something besides average speed (or less, depending on your interp).
Aeris isn't bringing much, but I guess she doesn't need to do much besides healing. She's faster than Tear at that, at least. Also, OPF Great Gospel eventually! This might even be Floor 2? Before that, Seal Evil is pretty decent, even OPF. Too bad she can't use her 'give up Limit meter to fill the rest of the party's Limit meters' ability with VBL. That would have made for AMAZING Aika synergy here. The wording is VBL is too strict though. If it was 'Limit meters do not fill by normal means (aka damage, defending)', then I would see a move that specifically restores Limit meters as working. But it says 'Limit meters can not be restored by any means'. Oh well. Anyway, Aeris' Restore materia lets Cloud concentrate on other things earlier in the Dungeon. Like Revive and Cover... >.>;; Cover's going to be so much more important now that I have more warm bodies with little to no durability...
Dropping Yulie also means I don't waste any of Raquel's precious FP, but I lose her awesome buffs (Tear's are good, but she gets them much later... less resources early on, too). And the dual tech MP-restore with Raquel is gone, too. Hopefully Cloud/Aika's MP reserves hold out...
So, the new Team Djinn (aka Team We Abuse Limits!)
Cloud (4.0)
Raquel (3.0)
Aika (2.0)
Tear (1.0)
Aeris (1.0)
(Violent Burst Law Sealstone)
I think as long as Aika saves enough SP for the Rampage Drive fight to waste him with Alpha Burst, this team should at least survive to Floor 3! Whee~
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Tear has magic damage earlygame too. Considering how bad at durability Rampage Drive is, it's probably enough, since Tear's early game magical damage is slow, but it registers at the curve.
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Violent law really is a waste with FF7, as the instant turns from limits are one of the biggest perks of using Cloud.
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Cloud is doing his job of 'be durable, keep glass party members alive'.
Besides, the main strategy I'm going for with this VBL team is: '5 party members with Limits, 5 battles => 1 Limit per battle + decent backup skills'. It's kind of like Overdrive's OPF 'I win', only I get 5 party members doing it. (Only, in Aeris/Aika's case, it's not as much of an 'I win', but Raquel can do it 4 times to even things out. And the other girls bring healing and magic immunity as a decent backup plan.)
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Does Aika spend her now hard-limited SP to use Delta Shield? The magic immunity there is recommended for prolonged battles, and your team doesn't seem too awesome at blitzing, limits aside.
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Does Aika spend her now hard-limited SP to use Delta Shield? The magic immunity there is recommended for prolonged battles, and your team doesn't seem too awesome at blitzing, limits aside.
She might. She starts with a full SP bar and Delta Shield only costs 2 SP. If she does nothing but Delta Shield, she gets 15 shots of it for the floor. Unless the floor is nothing but stallers, she shouldn't need more than that...
But I'm hoping that she doesn't need to do that for most fights. The team is designed mostly to be a 'Limit when you need to blitz a tough fight, Cloud/Raquel physical beat down or Swirlmarang cheese on easier opponents.'
I'm planning on Cloud going Cover->Revive->Transform(or Ice)->Restore->All for materia to help cover weaknesses and round out options.
Tear/Aeris are just there for healing, with Aika pulling backup speedy healer as necessary. Tear/Aika can also double as magic damage against physical-immune foes. Against even physical-resistant foes, I'd probably want to opt for Cloud/Raquel physical beatdown (even if it's slow) with Tear/Aeris pulling heal-duty. Aika would only be using Delta Shield in that case if there's some horrible ID/Magical smash that would pick off Cloud. Otherwise, she'll just Swirlmarang things (for pathetic damage, sure, but every little bit helps, and if something's not immune to Confuse, awesome!).
However, on a foe like that, hopefully I'll have -somebody's- Limit left to just 'LOL, I win' that fight.
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Fogel (3.5), Jerin (3), Hellion (1.5, speed), Tia (1), Aeris (1), Nall (1)
We'll see.
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Revamped team in light of point changes:
MT Sealstone
Bartz (4.0)
Fogel (3.5)
Ditto (.5)
Peppita (1.5)
Aeris (1.0)
Might change Aeris out for someone else later, haven't solidly decided on that last spot just yet.
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Team revamp!
Orlandu (3.5)
Ivan (Life Sealstone) (3.0)
Lucian & Shiho (2.5)
Selan (2.0)
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In light of additions, I'll be dropping Arnaud and Meru from my team for ACF Cecilia, so the team looks like this now:
Tidus(3.5)
Raquel(3.0)
ACF Cecilia(2.5)
Lilka(2.0)
Violent burst Law
Bonus points to the first person who guesses why ACF Cecilia + Violent burst = LULZ that isn't Bardiche.
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Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuu~~~
Fogel being raised means I have to edit my team, doesn't it? ;_;
Well, I still feel like I started a Fogel trend, at the least. ;p
EDIT: And, if I do modify my team, will that mean I'll have to wait longer? -.-
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Valkyrie Lenneth (3.5)
Sasarai (2.5) w/ Resourceless
Arnaud (2.0)
Tia (1.0)
Sacred Slayer (2.0)
Tia dropped half a point. Let's replace Pikachu by someone with... nearly identical tricks, (no Growl hype, -cries-) but durability. Some shade of. Evasion!!
Team still wishes it had some form of physical offense besides Lenneth. ;_;
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Fogel (3.5), Citan (3), Hellion (1.5, speed), Tia (1), Aeris (1)
We'll see.
Citan's 3.5, but that doesn't seem to make, since your team only actually adds up to 10.5 here. ;p
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Citan dropped to a 3.0
Err... wait, no he didn't. Odd.
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Citan dropped to a 3.0
Not that I know of. Atleast, Neph hasn't posted or editted the Wiki in regards to Citan dropping.
EDIT: lol, damn, posted too late. ;p
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Piggy: Nah, everyone's drawn from the same list. You're on it if you haven't been in the latest time, or off it if you're died this cycle already.
And thanks for spotting that. I just added Nall to the team.
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Piggy: Nah, everyone's drawn from the same list. You're on it if you haven't been in the latest time, or off it if you're died this cycle already.
And thanks for spotting that. I just added Nall to the team.
Thanks. =)
And Nall's 1 point when not taking a party slot, which puts you at 11.5. ;p
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Neph said he was dropping Citan. I'll go poke him.
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Neph said he was dropping Citan. I'll go poke him.
Ahhh, mmk, sorry then. Wasn't aware.
In any case, Fogel rising kinda breaks the synergy I had in my team. And I can't find a decent substitute. Emily's strong, but her defenses are less than satisfactory. I'll think of something. I might scrap half my team, and think of something new. Was thinking of using Miakis, actually.
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Emily has good evasion and hp which help against physicals. She still hate magic though.
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Alright, I had something in mind, but it's far from perfect, and any suggestions would be very much appreciated.
Keep in mind, I'll take out anyone really, with the exception of FF5 Chemist. He's the one guy I've been wanting to make a team with this entire time. ;p
Orlandu (3.5)
FF5 Chemist (3.5)
Cray w/ Speed? (1.0)
Garnet (2.0)
Erk (1.0)
So, as we've seen it before, Orlandu owns. Cray's depressingly slow, but with Speed?, he can immediately get off a buff on whoever needs it (Chemist is loving that +50% boost to Speed). Chemist and Garnet both have revival, and one gets amazing support skills later, the other gets great damage. Erk isn't stellar, but he can probably help to finish off whoever Orlandu/Garnet can't kill right away. He can also double slower enemies, which is handy. His less-than-satisfactory defense is helped by Chemist's support and Cray's buffs, if he'll need them. This team's not slow, it's not TOO fragile, and it's got decent offense, but like I said, it's got its troubles. Garnet's the only one with healing until Erk promotes (F4?), and until FF5 Chemist gets his X-Potions (F4).
What do you guys think? Is the earlier lack of healing bound to put me in trouble? One thing that I CAN do, if I do need a moment to heal is having FF5 Chemist Charm (he starts with Charm F1) someone, kill off the rest, and heal what needs to be healed.
Suggestions are more than welcome. For now, this is my team.
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Damn you, Piggy. Damn you fiercely.
Revising my team because the old team had... issues that may or may not have been unrepairable.
New team is as follows, with some accrediting to Tai for IDEAS SIPHONING, and Snow for assisting!
TEAM BARDICHE (Mk. 6.1)
Jerin (3.0)
Eileen (2.5)
Lucian (MT) & Shiho (2.5)
Garnet (2.0)
Nall (1.0)
Excepting Shiho, everyone on the team can do damage. Excepting Lucian, everyone can buff. Three Revivers, highspeed Healing, status healing and MT PWSes! Floor 4, I hope we'll be able to get acquainted.
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Okay. Submitting part of a team for my next one, since the Fogel concept kinda was irrepairable without ripping someone else off.
This being said, I'm not sure for the 4.0 slot. Souji would be nice once he's set up, but...
Mew (3.0), Crowley (2.0), Ricardo (1.5), Rena (0.5)
Life sealstone.
EDIT: Change of mind. While the above -will- be used if Souji gets a build in time, until then... I'll just bide time.
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Team Assessment (since there's no way I'm passing floor 3 with my current set-up):
TimeLord - The team's MVP at the time of defeat. Without him, I wouldn't have gone as far as I did. Overdrive was way too useful, and TimeLeap helped me cheese through a few of the tougher fights... And still would've been effective late.
Blue - Way too weak early, and I was an idiot thinking that I could just breeze through floor 3 (granted, if I had waited until Neph SENT me the diagram for floor 3, I probably might have made more intelligent decisions). Should've gone with Runes instead of Fists, even though I still think Blue could've used the VIT. Oh well.
Lilka - Extremely useful early. The infinite Healing/Revival/Quick would've been useful too, even though it'd go from damage/healing to buffing/healing pretty fast.
Lucia - I had plans for her later. Shame I couldn't get them to come to fruition. Oh well, right?
FFT Priest - Was there for healing, and I had .5 points left.
Well, there's always next time.
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Erk is apparently a lol choice, so switching him for a better mage. Hi Adray!
Orlandu (3.5)
FF5 Chemist (3.5)
Cray w/ Speed? (1.0)
Garnet (2.0)
Adray (1.0)
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Does anyone have any info on the progression of Tia's IPs in the Dungeon?
I know she starts out pretty useless, but if she can get some powerful IPs by F2, then she might be worth using over Aeris as a 1.0 healer?
Super... thoughts on Tia > Aeris for a VBL team?
Aeris. Lufia 2 IP's meant to be something used pretty often ala G3 SP, not conserved. I don't love Aeris in a VBL team but you get much more value there.
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L2 also generally hurts from VBL, since like FF7 limits, they get to normally use IPs more than once. Though they don't get initiative turns, they do get some utility.
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Aeris. Lufia 2 IP's meant to be something used pretty often ala G3 SP, not conserved. I don't love Aeris in a VBL team but you get much more value there.
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Right. Current idea with slight revision thanks to #Dungeonchat
Arnaud (2.0)
Citan (3.0)
Deis-2 (3.5)
Garnet (2.0)
FFT Priest (0.5)
Sealstone: Multitarget (typically equipped on Arnaud)
Basic idea: I was talking to Taishyr about the difficulty in finding people who want to use the Multitarget sealstone, thanks to the fact that it halves the effects of everything (often requiring some means of buffing to compensate). Then it hit me; WA4 statbusting is obscenely powerful. But ST in this situation.
Arnaud felt like a natural fit here. While Slow Down gets cut in power, it's still quite effective for cutting enemy speed, thanks to the intricacies of WA4's system. To boot, Illusion is still useful, cutting targets' HIT to 75% rather than halving; still quite effective. Both of these hit anything and everything not named Balgaine. He doesn't really care much for his damage anyway.
Deis...is Deis, bringing accurate ID and an inability to be pinned down by Silence, alongside her solid magic damage. Oh, and her buffs. Pwr.Up is insane to put on Citan for extra power, and let's not get into Death. It's BoF2 Death. Running on Deis stats. People die from it.
Citan brings lightning-fast offense to start, and can get ATK-up from Deis, turning him into a physical damage nightmare. He also acts as a secondary healer, and later a haste-buffer, using Senkei to no small effect if he's allowed two turns. His speed is definitely notable, however, and is formidable post-Senkei. That's if the team gets that far.
Garnet...okay. I'll admit that Snow suggested her. I'm guessing FF9 equips+summons+healing, mainly. And has revival. Yay revival.
FFT Priest felt like a good 0.5 healer/reviver to throw in. Revival in a pinch, and later on, if the extra damage is justified and there isn't healing or buffing to do, Holy. Resources relegate her to secondary, though.
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Blue (Speed?) - 4.0
TimeLord - 4.0
Jeff - 1.5
Lucia - 1.0
Nall - .5
General idea:
Blue gets the Speed? Sealstone until about floor 5 or floor 6, when Multi Bottle Rockets open up for Jeff, and I get to stop worrying about Blue's speed.
In the early floors, he'll be quick ID to anything vulnerable and troubling, or a decent buff to an ally that's more likely to need it early on in the battle (PsychoArmor, upgrade to Shield - Arcane, or when I get late enough, an Overdrive just about every battle, since Blue doesn't have the restriction that TimeLord does here, and I have Lucia for MP/JP healing. On early floors, I can have Lucia Gale up Jeff if he's really hurting for damage early, and he's got other neat gimmicks that will help out my team and himself somewhat, like the Defense Spray/Shower, the (Hungry) HP sucker, the Heavy Bazooka, and POSSIBLY the Neutralizer (it DOES have its uses). Once Multi Bottle Rockets show up, though, Jeff will get Speed?, and start dealing OPB ~3x Average Damage on the first (almost initiative!) turn.
The general idea this time is Realm (forced) - Light - Arcane - (What the crap can Blue do new on floors 4 and 5 anymore?) - Time - Life/Mind.
General thoughts and evaluations?
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You're going to need healing, revival and more durability in that. I suggest using only one Godlike in a team at any given time. >_>;
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I don't think the team makes it past floor 2. The team's offense is entirely based off of Blue at first, and Blue runs out of offense way to early. Then Timelord has to Overdrive and the team is helpless for the Boss.
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If I take the PC side, though, it gets easier for me. LOTS of things there are ID susceptible, Blue's getting the drop on EVERYTHING, and I still have VermillionSand to fall back on, and I believe it also causes Blind a lot of the time... Or so I hear.
It's... A really weird project team. At least Jeff's speed isn't THAT bad in comparison until Poo joins. Then Poo makes everyone else sad.
It's a really weird type of blitzing team, but it's still viable as blitzing... Nall's there to make sure I always have Blue and TimeLord available to get the drop on stuff.
I'd still love to know what makes TimeLord lose so much speed respect between floors 2 and 3, though.
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I'd still love to know what makes TimeLord lose so much speed respect between floors 2 and 3, though.
Mystic stats are mostly static outside absorbs and their bases are usually terrible (TL's base speed is the best among Mystics, and it's not impressive). Earlygame-midgame enemy absorb also suck ass for stat boosts, and you only get full Mystic equips on the lategame. Floor 3 is that magic spot where the stat growth of humans starts notably showing while Mystics are in a complete rut, with only one Mystic absorb slot and terrible monsters to absorb from. I believe this was fairly extensively noted multiple times in multiple analyses.
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Blue (Speed?) - 4.0
TimeLord - 4.0
Jeff - 1.5
Lucia - 1.0
Nall - .5
General idea:
Blue gets the Speed? Sealstone until about floor 5 or floor 6, when Multi Bottle Rockets open up for Jeff, and I get to stop worrying about Blue's speed.
In the early floors, he'll be quick ID to anything vulnerable and troubling, or a decent buff to an ally that's more likely to need it early on in the battle (PsychoArmor, upgrade to Shield - Arcane, or when I get late enough, an Overdrive just about every battle, since Blue doesn't have the restriction that TimeLord does here, and I have Lucia for MP/JP healing. On early floors, I can have Lucia Gale up Jeff if he's really hurting for damage early, and he's got other neat gimmicks that will help out my team and himself somewhat, like the Defense Spray/Shower, the (Hungry) HP sucker, the Heavy Bazooka, and POSSIBLY the Neutralizer (it DOES have its uses). Once Multi Bottle Rockets show up, though, Jeff will get Speed?, and start dealing OPB ~3x Average Damage on the first (almost initiative!) turn.
The general idea this time is Realm (forced) - Light - Arcane - (What the crap can Blue do new on floors 4 and 5 anymore?) - Time - Life/Mind.
General thoughts and evaluations?
Absolutely awful. Blue/TL do not work together well at -all-. Blue needs some serious support to get to floor 7 in the first place, and you're trying to skate by with TL (Who, while wonderful, is limited in what he can do for healing/direct damage) and another bad project PC in Jeff. A 1.0 who is known for support should not be one of your strongest party members in everything related to durability stats.
Four PC teams struggle if they have four good PC's. You have one good PC until late (TL) and that's it.
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If I take the PC side, though, it gets easier for me. LOTS of things there are ID susceptible, Blue's getting the drop on EVERYTHING, and I still have VermillionSand to fall back on, and I believe it also causes Blind a lot of the time... Or so I hear.
It's... A really weird project team. At least Jeff's speed isn't THAT bad in comparison until Poo joins. Then Poo makes everyone else sad.
It's a really weird type of blitzing team, but it's still viable as blitzing... Nall's there to make sure I always have Blue and TimeLord available to get the drop on stuff.
I'd still love to know what makes TimeLord lose so much speed respect between floors 2 and 3, though.
Honestly, I'm not sure the team makes it past the first fight of Floor 2 PC. All of the FF PCs are immune to ID so Blue is in trouble. Additionally the FFT PCs and the Black Mage are immune to stone so TL isn't very helpful either. Vermillion sand is good damage, but it's not MT OHKO and the rest of your offense is so bad they can't kill anybody unless they gang up on them. The Knight is getting multiple turns so Blue can kiss his MP goodbye and without it your team has NO offense.
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Honestly, I'm not sure the team makes it past the first fight of Floor 2 PC. All of the FF PCs are immune to ID so Blue is in trouble. Additionally the FFT PCs and the Black Mage are immune to stone so TL isn't very helpful either. Vermillion sand is good damage, but it's not MT OHKO and the rest of your offense is so bad they can't kill anybody unless they gang up on them. The Knight is getting multiple turns so Blue can kiss his MP goodbye and without it your team has NO offense.
Well, the main idea of using VermillionSand, even if it misses the OHKO, is because the stat topic sets it at a rather darn good chance of inflicting Blind (like, 80%). Unless there's some piece of equipment for them that blocks Blind without hosing their defense to ID, Petrify, AND Charm (as far as I've seen, a common FFT character can only block two of those at a time), I'm getting through just fine, it's other battles I have to worry about. As far as I know, the FFT Archer doesn't scare me.
I believe this was fairly extensively noted multiple times in multiple analyses.
I believe it was mentioned once or twice, and never really delved into as to WHY. Makes sense now, though...
Yeah, no more TimeLord. Take him out, and add in 3.5 points more of two PCs seems like a good idea, really - move Nall into his 1.0 form for that free slot, and then put in Ness and Rand?
I dunno, but yeah, scratch my last team. I am going to make a successful team with Blue in it, it's just gonna take a heck of a lot more planning...
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Not to mention Jeff is both frail and slow (always game-worst speed, no tapdancing about it, and even without Poo, the speed spread isn't irrelevant), and has absolutely horrible offense until bottle rockets kick in, and that's not even floor 3 (even if it was, what about the other two floors that still brutalize you? Your durability/speed spread is one of the worst I've ever seen. The only reason the team doesn't die to floor 1 is because TL is good enough to handle those threats, and only very barely). Not to mention that you're banking your revival on -Blue-. Blue is the worst reviver you could ever have, and you have, once again, no reliable MT healing whatsoever (Lucia does -not- cut it. You're spending half your team to full heal with her, since her oils don't affect her, you need to have Blue healing her too. And his own targettable healing is trash! Your team gets owned by MT 3HKO damage, which is just pathetic). You keep posting essentially the same team over and over, and it doesn't seem to hit you that maybe Blue isn't such a good idea as a Godlike to pick (he's a 4.0 who fights like a 1.5 for six floors), let alone when you're pairing him with another Godlike and essentially forcing yourself to pick worthless fodder for your remaining party. You need some clout in your lower echelons as well if you want to do better than getting eaten by a FFT fight earlygame over and over again.
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Words.
I realize this. The last part of my previous post recognizes this. I want to use Blue, but I need to figure out what's available to me in terms of a combination of four good PCs in 7 points that don't use a Sealstone, since Blue's bogarting it right now for either quick ID, PsychoArmor, or whatever other buffs/tricks I want to apply. 6 if I want to consider using Nall (or 6.5 if I only want to use 3 PCs)... Which might not be a bad idea, truthfully. Or maybe it is, I haven't the foggiest. I just need more research, and quite possibly a reassessment of what I want my team to do, how I want them to sync, and the data I have put together of what I actually know.
I do know one thing, though.
You force people to take the dungeon way too seriously, and that makes it really not fun to argue on. Good or bad? Who cares, it's just my interpretation.
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Aeris. Lufia 2 IP's meant to be something used pretty often ala G3 SP, not conserved. I don't love Aeris in a VBL team but you get much more value there.
I'm really not seeing how frail healer-types are getting off multiple IPs OR Limits in the Dungeon. Generally, if a healer is the target of an enemy team (needs to take damage to get Limit), the healer is DEAD before they move and have to be revived. And I'm pretty sure Limits are lost upon death. (Actually, not sure about IPs, though... hmm...)
I'm curious about how Tia's IPs are available in the Dungeon to see if her tricks would be better than Aeris' one shot of Status (or one shot of Great Gospel). Tia gets more non-IP options than the Restore materia, too. Though Aeris still might be better in the long run thanks to FF7 equips?
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Spitballing a team. No real reasoning behind it. Just feel like putting something in.
Rika, Raquel, Sacred Slayer, Claude Kenni. Status Symbol Law.
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This stands as an experimental team to wonder what may be viable for a decentish run... Mostly thanks to Yoshi for pointing me in a few directions for what I need to pick up.
Blue (Speed?) - 4.0
Toadstool - 3.0
Arnaud - 2.0
FFT Monk - 1.5 (EDIT: Which one put in for clarification, since the only other identifying feature is a 0.5 difference.)
The idea for Blue is Realm (Forced) -> Arcane -> Light -> (Floor 4) -> (Floor 5) -> Time -> Else.
Those first four are preferred, as Blue is the only Project Character this time, and the other three can each stand on their own quite easily. However, the total here is only 10.5 points, and I do have an extra slot left, so I'm actually debating between the following three characters.
Nall - 0.5 - Even though it only works between fights, it's still good to have all my characters ready to take a turn right when the battle starts.
Rand - 0.5 - Another warm body, and has very nice durability, healing, and revival... But the downside? He has no speed. That's an ouch.
FFT Priest - 0.5 - Again with the warm body, but this time very frail to physicals. More reliable healing/revival, and might have less status holes than Rand; though Monk and Toadstool being there kind of make that one particular point irrelevant.
Comments on deciding factors would be welcome in trying to decide on who to pick for that elusive fifth slot.
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Honestly, I'd swap Toadstool out for someone else and Arnaud doesn't seem like he would work that well with Blue either. FFT Monk is a good choice. and Blue with the Speed ? sealstone isn't a bad decision either.
Blue with Speed ? is obviously the lynchpin of the team so let's look at what he needs.
-MT damage to mop up after Vermillion Sand/Megawindblast
-Extra Healing and revival
-people who help make it past floor 3 (that seems to be where Blue teams get stopped)
First of all Toadstool is a great healer, but you already have a bit of healing and revival with Blue/FFT Monk and as a result you'll probably want someone cheaper for healing. To fill the 3.0 slot I would suggest Emily. She has fantastic offense and great speed. She smashes floor 3 MT with her great damage. When combined with Blue it's pretty much assured that at least one enemy is going to be dead very quickly. Jerin would be better if you wanted your 3.0 to be a healer and Rune and Geddoe would also be decent picks, but they don't obliterate floor 3 the way Emily does.
As for your next spot you'll probably want someone in the 2.0-1.5 range. If you stick with a healer for a 3.0 you'll want a MT damage dealer and for that I would suggest either Yosuke, Jean or Ursula. If you went with a damage dealer you're going to want a healer. Yukiko, Teddie, Garnet, or Eiko are all pretty good. Kyra would be a great medium between the two if you wanted to use her, but she lacks MT healing which would probably force your last pick to be a healer.
For your last slot, there are a couple ways you could go. Depending on whether you went with a 2 or 1.5 you can choose either a 1.0 or a .5. You’ll probably just want an extra healer, MT damage dealer or support character. This leaves a huge amount of options but some that standout as picks that would work with your team are Borya, Jessica, Mint, Nei, Spar, Tia, Yukari, Tear, Nina 3, or Priest.
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For the MT Floor, Emily might be better, sure. But what if he takes the ST floor? Arnaud has a killer debuff as it is, and that'll allow Monk to take care of enemies pretty effectively.
No, the major problem that still stands out to me is the durability. Emily definitely doesn't improve on that at all, and relying on Blue for healing is not the best of moves, as he's got limited resources and better things to spend his turns on. I'd say he definitely needs another healer on the team past Blue/Monk, but... hmm. Looking at your suggestions there, the best bet would probably be something along the lines of Geddoe/Eiko. Weakness issues will destroy the P4ers early, and late on won't be as important, what with Blue destroying almost any threat that comes his way. Eiko could be useful for Carbuncle (w/some variety if allowed to change the effect it has on later floors), and Geddoe actually has durability. A~and... that leaves 1 for the last character.
Alternatively, go with Kyra as you said (instead of Eiko), and use that last point for Rand/Priest.
Main point, though: Emily = not a good move. Not on an already frail team that will probably be avoiding the MT floor as it is.
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I don't see durability as much of a problem as much as offense. With the Blue/Toadstool/Arnaud/Monk team Blue is the entirety of the offense because Toadstool and Arnaud are just bad at it and Monk is only okay. Emily is a fine choice. Her durability problems are only against magic which Blue can shut down with physic prison. She has above average hp as well as crazy evasion. Her durability is fine and her damage and speed are ridiculous. The main reason I suggest taking the MT floor with her is that a spell from Blue combined with one of her physicals does an extreme amount of damage to all opponents. She does over 2x average and Blue's damage should be above average as well. Together they're pumping out around 3.5x average damage before most of the enemies get a turn. So while Arnaud may be better for the ST floor, if he chooses Emily he wants the MT floor as Blue and Emily completely paste it.
Finally He's not relying on Blue for healing. The Monk is an acceptable healer and I suggested a couple of other options for healers to use in the 2.0 slot. Toadstool is one of the best healers around, but I wouldn't suggest her when you already have a couple of other healing options. She works best in a team that is desperate for healing or a defensive team that tries to stall out the opponent.
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KOSMOS (2.5)
Arc (3)
Yukiko (1.5)
Sasarai (2.5)
Marisa (1.5)
I don't see myself on the list so I will repost this
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Finally He's not relying on Blue for healing. The Monk is an acceptable healer
That's FF1 Monk, who has no healing at all.
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Finally He's not relying on Blue for healing. The Monk is an acceptable healer
That's FF1 Monk, who has no healing at all.
No, Magic wanted to use the FFT monk who gets chakra and revive.
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Oh. Right, forgot there was a FFT Monk for a minute, derp.
But both his healing and revival are really awful from the get-go (probably 40% HP healing at its best, and it can target one person besides him at most [the negative vertical tolerance and inability to target it on others doom its claims to MT right there], and the revival has accuracy issues, even moreso early on). Not to mention FFT Monk also can't take advantage of most FFT equipment, which is a selling point for FFT PCs in the dungeon, and his offense isn't very impressive.
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I know it's bad but like I said earlier Toadstool is expensive for what she does unless your team has no other healing or you are trying to build a defensive team like Sage's. I think that Toadstool is a bit overkill especially since he wants to have another .5 healer especially when there are other characters who can heal and fix other problems that the team has (like Jerin or Kyra).
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Yeah, but he needs a dedicated healer instead of someone who can't properly do the job. Crappy healing in the dungeon just doesn't cut it, and Monk sorta sucks at everything he tries to do for relevant dungeon purposes.
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In light of Tidus resource woes, changing team to something like
Ryu2 + Rune + Jane + Eiko + Raja(Speed?)
for now. Will probably change it around some but that's a decent foundation I guess.
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Yeah, but he needs a dedicated healer instead of someone who can't properly do the job. Crappy healing in the dungeon just doesn't cut it, and Monk sorta sucks at everything he tries to do for relevant dungeon purposes.
As far as I figure, since I only need her healing (and the revival would come off Monk and that .5 until... What, floor 3?) every turn, Monk makes that near-infinite thanks to Chakra, and if I don't pick a healer for that .5, I need someone who can REALLY accentuate my offense there.
...But still, it is tempting to switch out Toadstool for Ness. He has TONS of durability, decent healing, a nice skillset, and (depending on interpretation) if is going to be knocked out by damage in a turn where he has at least 50% of his HP left, something of a Last Word or Final Attack ability (obviously this wouldn't kick in if he was ID'd or Petrified).
...But still, I'm hesitant. Toadstool has crazy-accurate status if I really need it, and is a healing goddess. It's hard to beat that.
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Aeris. Lufia 2 IP's meant to be something used pretty often ala G3 SP, not conserved. I don't love Aeris in a VBL team but you get much more value there.
I'm really not seeing how frail healer-types are getting off multiple IPs OR Limits in the Dungeon. Generally, if a healer is the target of an enemy team (needs to take damage to get Limit), the healer is DEAD before they move and have to be revived. And I'm pretty sure Limits are lost upon death. (Actually, not sure about IPs, though... hmm...)
I'm curious about how Tia's IPs are available in the Dungeon to see if her tricks would be better than Aeris' one shot of Status (or one shot of Great Gospel). Tia gets more non-IP options than the Restore materia, too. Though Aeris still might be better in the long run thanks to FF7 equips?
IPs are lost upon death. What Aeris's limits do is limit what teasm can do with MT damage spam. It's an instant turn when you get a limit, that makes it very useful defensively. If you go with the later ones, you can get full HP/MP healing or invincibility, which is neat. Tia's IPs just tend to be sapped very fast from 100% for any of the really useful ones. Violent burst doesn't really help her a ton in that regard, but she still fits the team. Aeris has better durability, Tia has better speed, MT healing, and revival. Aeris has those nasty limits backing her up though and better status blockers. It's a tough call to make.
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Tia also has better offense (I'm assuming she gets storebought magic here?), and Lufia 2 magic isn't shabby as long as you have a magic stat and the proper level spells to back it up. She's like a faster Eiko with IPs in a sense if I'm reading her right. The awful survivability (-definitely- sub-Eiko >_>) is what keeps her in check as a 1.5.
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Tia's a 1.0. With good reason, she never ever breaks .7 PC HP and has really bad defense to boot.
Tia's offense is decent, but she hates that she lacks Selan's really good INT or Zap. IIRC she's near the bottom of the totem poll on damage at endgame but I'd have to check.
Edit: First four-five floors: Dekar>Lexis>>Guy>Maxim>Selan>Artea>Tia is my rough kneejerk. Floor 7 is Lexis>Selan=Dekar>Artea=Guy>Tia>Maxim. The high level spells throw off things off some here. Aftergame balances things back towards Dekar, since his STR growth isn't great from level 30ish when he leaves to like level 60ish.
Tia's never going to dominate damage, but it is respectable for a 1.0. She has elemental choice as well which helps some too.
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Oh, right. That sounds right, yeah. And then, there's the fact her durability just -keeps getting worse-...
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Pulse of Life revives~
Edit - How effective is Seal Evil in dungeon?
Aerith has no offence outside of it so ... yeah (powered up Princess Guard hype!? *shot*)
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Oh, right. That sounds right, yeah. And then, there's the fact her durability just -keeps getting worse-...
Oh. Right, dungeon is scaling against all seven PC's. This is her HP scaled against the full cast when she leaves.
HP:
1. Dekar, 332
2. Guy, 289
3. Maxim, 183
4. Artea, 175
5. Lexis, 151
6. Selan, 123
7. Tia, 114
Full cast average: 195. Tia: 58% PC HP. She's probably taking an extra 20% from physicals as well. This is constant, as her HP growth blows. She'll never break half average against physicals in the dungeon at any point. In game aside: Guy/Dekar's HP is really damn good. Shame L2 doesn't make you use them, they're both excellent tanks.
HP:
1. Dekar, 332
2. Guy, 289
3. Maxim, 183
4. Artea, 175
5. Lexis, 151
6. Selan, 123
7. Tia, 114
Full cast average: 195. Tia: 58% PC HP.
L23
I'm yanking L57 (Endgamish) stats from Heavyarms's FAQ. It isn't perfect as it doesn't factor in the stuff from the shrine and ignores AC improved stat growth, but it's good enough to give a rough idea of Tia's relative durability/HP.
HP:
1.
Dekar, 603
Guy, 528
Maxim, 451
Artea, 426
Lexis, 392
Selan, 356
Tia, 260
Average HP: 431. Tia's HP is .6 PC HP. Fail. That's before physical defense as well.
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Tia really, really begs for something like an Eileen to stop her from getting OHKOed all day. But, like with Eileen+Raja, it's a pretty abusive combo if you get it going.
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Right, then. Let's try this. Shame, I had a whole nice writeup ready for another team, but I think this might work better... I'm a sucker for using 3.5-4.0s that haven't been used yet / much. Last time was DQ8 Jessica, and I was going to try Shania, but instead I'm falling back to Deis1, shatterer of the early floors, who I don't think has been used either.
Deis1 / Bleu (3.5) (Zerase, 3.0?)
Feena (2.5)
Red XIII (2.5)
Strago (Speed?) (1.5)
Raja (1.0) (Ricardo, 1.5?)
Aqua will be raked. Anyway Deis / Feena / Strago (??) all have stupidly great speed, especially early, and Red's speed is decent. Deis does 80% PCHP MT damage with Comet off great speed endgame, and breaks the curve just as badly in earlier floors (though sadly generally with an element attached). (Though... as a sanity check... nobody scales BoF1 against Karn's fused forms, right, since they're illegal and all?) Red, well, he's a backup reviver for Raja who's dangerous to attack and he also blows stuff up, especially on the midfloors. And Feena just blows stuff up off good speed in general. So between the four of them, most fights, especially those against PCs who aren't crazy elemental spoilers, should hopefully be over. Meanwhile, Raja is the only 1.0 MP restorer, and the team does have some MP issues (especially in Floor 8+ if I want to abuse Time Gate), so congratulations. I suppose I'll need to go play PSIV, now.
Main weakness I see is that the main source of physical damage is Feena's techs, but those run out quickly. Granted Red becomes a beater late with the Limited Moon, but until then status-immune magic-tanks are the biggest problem I see, closely followed by the annoying "null ALL elements" types.
EDIT: And thanks to chat, I now know that Raja's Ataraxia runs out really fast! Guess I needed to play PS4 sooner. Back to the drawing board. Suppose as a quick fix for now, Zerase is basically Bleu with less durability, less MP, and hitting only one element... though it's a weird and almost NE element. And Ricardo's MP generation keeps going for a long while after Feena statuses out the last enemy.)
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Tia really, really begs for something like an Eileen to stop her from getting OHKOed all day. But, like with Eileen+Raja, it's a pretty abusive combo if you get it going.
This is why I'm wondering why anyone is hyping Tia as surviving any damage long enough to -get- an IP. I think VBL ensures that she can use an IP at least -once-.
But I don't know what IPs she gets. Does anything in her IP skillset make her worth using over Aeris? (all other factors aside)
Also, note that Cloud w/ Cover is the primary method of keeping Tia OR Aeris alive here...
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Pet team idea tentatively. I have idea two, trying to take advantage of elemental advance as well with Edgar, but speed issues. Current team idea:
Citan (3.0)
Geddoe (3.0)
Garnet (2.0)
Lilka (2.0)
Ziggy (1.0)
E-advance sealstone.
The idea: Basically have a standalone team that can go through at least floor 1-2 of the dungeon without too much trouble. Then around floor 3, when Garnet picks up Ramuh and Citan gets his elemental shields...
Citan start playing heck with it by adding weaknesses, shielding against elements, and having healing as a back up. Physicals exist if he needs to
Geddoe can adjust his speed and has crowd control, two things that I like. Latter helps fix some of Citan's problems. Can also start the pain with Lightning
Garnet starts off with healing and elemental blocking. Gets summons later and other support spells. Speed is above average which is good. Summons being MT and having different elements help in case Lightning is blocked
Lilka is similar. Decently fast, different variety of spells to keep the team running.
Ziggy has some lightning ether based techs and some fire based techs which allows revolving of elements. Also decently tanky, gets damage if he gets going.
Some problems:
- Seems a little mage heavy. Then again, expected. Not sure how well the team will fair against magic tanks of doom.
- Anytime a character in the chain needs to heal, that's a 25% decrease in damage at least.
- The speed gap between Ziggy and the other 4 is pretty noticable since Citan >> Geddoe >/ Lilka > Garnet >> Ziggy. This makes it easy for enemies to enter the chain and break it apart
- Neither Garnet or Lilka are terribly durable. Having them function as revivers is kinda bad
- Garnet has no status blocking. For someone so entrenched in the team, this is also bad.
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Anytime a character in the chain needs to heal, that's a 25% decrease in damage at least.
Non elemental attacks, healing, buffs, etc do not break the chain IIRC! At least that's what Neph said! :)
Only if your healing, etc is elemental and of a different one that you're abusing I'd imagine.
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Blue (Speed?) - 4.0
Toadstool - 3.0
Arnaud - 2.0
FFT Monk - 1.5
Rand - 0.5
The idea for Blue is Realm (Forced) -> Arcane -> Light -> (Floor 4) -> (Floor 5) -> Time -> Else.
The general idea is that Blue is getting the drop on EVERYTHING on turn 1, thanks to Speed? being on him (which he'll eventually give to Rand once he gets Overdrive - to which point, I'll need nothing else). Start of turn ID? There. Defensive buffing? Sure. Revival? He can pick it up in a pinch on floor 3 - I do also want Tower to be available early, for WTF damage IF and only IF I really need it.
Toadstool is healing extraordinaire. At floor 2, (that is when Rose Town is, right?) Wake Up Pins will be available, making her immune to Sleep and Silence. Later on (Floor... 4ish?), I'll be able to trade that in for elemental damage halving. It's a nice package to have, overall.
Arnaud is there for his incredible (if ST) buff and debuffs. Sure, the magic damage is nice and all, but it's something to consider if a target's speed is on par with Blue.
FFT Monk serves four functions: Earlygame physical damage. Somewhat respectable revival (it hits 3 out of 4 times right out of the gate, I wanna say?). MP healing (I'd rather ignore the HP-healing part of that, since it's so bad). Decent status healing that can't be silenced. To bolster this, he also gets Hamedo at some point, as well as Limit Range full healing. All he has for status defense are clothes and an accessory, but them's the brakes. Still useful, though.
Rand is my secondary healer/reviver/physicaler. If he's not healing, he's putting the pain on something with his fists. He has magic damage, but it looks generally unimpressive to me. It's still there, though.
Assumed floor 1 path:
Palmer and Mist Dragon - Blue's casting PsychoArmor, Toadstool is defending, Monk doesn't need to worry about Toadstool at all, so beat on Palmer some, and once he's down, beat on Mist Dragon until it Mists up. Monk takes the turns of "don't attack me, stupid" to restore everyone else's MP. Next.
Steelix, Shuckle and FF1 Knight - Blue IDs FF1 Knight, and the other two fail so much on damage and speed for words. No resource problems at all yet.
Marle, Alice and FFT Priest - Okay, this... Might get tricky. Blue and his massive speed IDs Marle (thanks Implosion!), Arnaud Slows Alice down, while Monk, Toadstool, and Rand beat up FFT Priest. Team takes an Advent to the face (or face having whoever she revives... Be completely useless, as the revived will be Slow Downed and killed off again in short order)... Toadstool heals, and the fight kinda ends there.
Rampage Drive - Rampage Drive against mostly mages. Yeah.
Lich (FF1) - Don't think Lich can stand up to the combined offense here.
Other points of interest:
FFT fights on the Floor 3 MT? Meet Tower. If that wasn't enough the first time, meet it again. And again. I've got time to spare. Arguments opposed? Monk's Chakra and other limitess amounts of healing at this point. Thank you, have a nice evening, floor 3.
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Magic - Blue (4.0), Eiko (1.5), Peppita (1.5), Alex/Cecil, (2.5) or Ephraim, Juan/Kevin (1.5) or Riddel/White Wizard/Red Mage/Blanca/Raja team w/th Speed Sealstone! *shot* or a 3.0 physical blitzer (Chaz!? Emily!?) MT offence (Rune!?) + Raja! *doubleshot*
Edit - Whoops I meant Rune for MT offence not Raja >_>
Seriously though you didn't address the issues that dude pointed about physical/MT offense, getting more bang for your buck than Arnaud/Toadstool, etc :P (Eiko + Peppita > Toadstool - you have Toadstool's healing/revival w/th magic offence, status + buffing as bonus! Haste or MT Haste (Carbuncle) mimics Arnaud's Slow Down for addressing speed issues only you're getting faster instead of getting faster + Power Dance is MT Hyper - That's just an example of how you could fit more in) If you really think you'll have fun with the team even if it trainwrecks + explodes horribly early dungeon/you are just experimenting then follow your heart but if you're at all serious about this please, please, please try to take more people's advice into account. People are only trying to save you the frustration now.
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Magic your offense is even worse than your last team, and lack of offense is the main reason that that team failed. The Knight/Shuckle/ Steelix fight is troublesome because none of them can be IDed. The Knight smacks Toadstool to put some pressure on her. Arnaud has to cast Slow Down on the Knight this turn. Shuckle Encores him. Steelix screeches Toadstool. Rand has to heal toadstool. Next turn Arnaud has to use slow down again to no effect. The Knight smashes Toadstool and you have no way to revive her. That's game. Vermillion Sand can inflict blind, but the knight can heal it. All the Knigh has to do is survive 1 Vermillion Sand, 2 monk physicals, 2 toadstool physicals, and maybe one Rand physical. He does this easily. Rand and the Monk are both below average damage. Toadstool doesn't even register on the curve right now and the Knight has significantly above average HP, Defense and magic defence. Also KOing Steelix won't work either because Shuckle can use Helping Hand on the Knight for a similar effect. Your team is loosing Toadstool on this fight and they don't make it past the floor without her.
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To tack on to what dude said, even assuming you pass Floor 1, I can only see trouble on Floor 2.
The boss floor walls your ID, so that hype isn't flying. Additionally, Nimufu/Augus means Nimufu puts at least the Monk and Rand to sleep, and Augus smashes Blue and Toadstool. Arnaud does NOT save this fight by his lonesome, since the next turn just means Augus is smashing FFT Monk and Rand with Nimufu-improved offense. That's game.
If you go the PC floor, you're heavily debilitated that Blue is the only one with some shade of damage. The first fight already is troublesome: if you drop anyone but White Wizard, she's reviving. If you drop White Wizard, you're left to last against Black Wizard, Knight and Archer's offense. This trend continues for the rest of the floor.
If you make it to Floor 3, you'll already have struggled a lot, and the Floor 4 floors are really fierce from what I gather. Please reconsider.
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Not to mention that he gets none of the statusblockers this early (WA4 statusblockers are floor 7, FFT statusblockers start showing up at some shade of floor 4, etc.), and Toadstool only gets her MT status by floor 3-4. Toadstool's revival is floor 5, her offense until lategame is impossibly terrible... it goes on. Not to mention Rand is almost as much of a waste of 0.5 points as Onix.
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The Knight/Shuckle/ Steelix fight is troublesome because none of them can be IDed.
I didn't know they had anything resembling status resistance. Through what do they do this with?
The Knight smashes Toadstool and you have no way to revive her. That's game.
This is assuming that you don't allow FFT Monk's Revive this early.
The boss floor walls your ID, so that hype isn't flying. Additionally, Nimufu/Augus means Nimufu puts at least the Monk and Rand to sleep, and Augus smashes Blue and Toadstool. Arnaud does NOT save this fight by his lonesome, since the next turn just means Augus is smashing FFT Monk and Rand with Nimufu-improved offense. That's game.
Blue throws up Arcane: Shield, and I mostly fly on the idea that Toadstool has a Wake-Up Pin by now (they are storebought in Rose Town).
Not to mention that he gets none of the statusblockers this early (WA4 statusblockers are floor 7, FFT statusblockers start showing up at some shade of floor 4, etc.), and Toadstool only gets her MT status by floor 3-4. Toadstool's revival is floor 5, her offense until lategame is impossibly terrible... it goes on. Not to mention Rand is almost as much of a waste of 0.5 points as Onix.
Toadstool's revival is more like floor 3 or 4 - I mean, it is only level 13.
...But fine, scrap the team again. It's no use going for a possibly viable strategy if everyone else sees it as failing, since the dungeon relies ENTIRELY on votes. Back to the drawing board for me~.
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Monk's Revive is too expensive to be non-late floor 1, yeah. 500 JP isn't coming ingame until... past Zeklaus at best, which is fight 3 for me. I could easily see it as the start of floor 2.
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The Knight has equipment that nulls it. Steelix and Shuckle both have Sturdy as an ability which prevents ID attacks from working.
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Not to mention that he gets none of the statusblockers this early (WA4 statusblockers are floor 7, FFT statusblockers start showing up at some shade of floor 4, etc.), and Toadstool only gets her MT status by floor 3-4. Toadstool's revival is floor 5, her offense until lategame is impossibly terrible... it goes on. Not to mention Rand is almost as much of a waste of 0.5 points as Onix.
Toadstool's revival is more like floor 3 or 4 - I mean, it is only level 13.
And Yaridovich is around L10-12, which I'd honestly see as the cutting point for L4.
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...Yaridovich... what? >_>
Damnit, I need to play SMRPG again but I swear you guys' levels are far smaller than mine on that one.
Eh, it's why I avoid SMRPG a bit in the Dungeon I think.
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Please remember, Magic. We're not trying to put you down or whatever, because it's also in our best interest that your team succeeds past Floor 3. :) Since Blue is a project character, you need to balance him with people who are useful from the get-go, and who have revival to compensate for his suspect durability. Eiko and Garnet are great healers, because they are average and above-average speed respectively, and neither are too terribly frail.
Read over Clear Tranquil's suggestions as well. You definitely need some extra combat in there. Try to make a 7.0 team that works, and just add Blue as an extra character. He's not stellar until Floor 7, so building a support team for him is almost equal to building a team to support a 1.5 or 2.0 for damage. It's not the best of ideas.
You can always hit up super or snow on IRC to talk about dungeon teams, and there's always the dungeon channel where everyone'd be willing to pitch in with suggestions or bounce ideas with.
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...Yaridovich... what? >_>
Damnit, I need to play SMRPG again but I swear you guys' levels are far smaller than mine on that one.
Eh, it's why I avoid SMRPG a bit in the Dungeon I think.
No, I agree completely, I was usually around 17 or 18 there I think.
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... 17-18 on Yaridovich? O_o I reached 18 at the Axem Rangers...
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I'd say that 13-15 is reasonable levels for Yaridovich. 12 is definately a bit low and 18 is way too high. 18 is more Nimbus Land.
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When I went through the game to get boss stats I fought almost everything and ended up around 11 at Yaridovich so I have no clue how you people got that much higher. 12 is reasonable, 15 is not. 18 is crazy, that's almost endgame. That's when everyone learns their final spell.
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Man, I always assumed 15 for Yaridovich at least. Granted, I also see endgame at, like 25 or so >_>
Not that it really changes the PCs much, from what I remember?
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Growths generally go down the crapper past 18, so they don't really matter a ton. I'm more shocked you don't see SMRPG endgame as 30, which is the max level, though. I think L24 was what PD used for his topic?
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Of course I see at at 30...for me >_>
I was thinking 25 for normal people
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Yeah, I was at least 15-16 at Yarid. I know I had Geno's Geno Blast at that point, myself, and that's a level 14 spell.
...And on comparison? I hit 22-24 around the Axem Rangers, I think. Using Psych Bomb on the Axem Rangers was fun.
EDIT: And now, for something completely different. A team I'm actually happy with!
Blue - 4.0
Emily - 3.0
Lilka - 2.0
Bowser (Speed?) - 1.0
Lucia - 1.0 Tear - 1.0
Yes, the usual late-game Blue-Lucia combo is still in effect, but... Now in the battle for offense, it's... Bowser (Speed?) and Emily! That level of offense is kinda sick, really. Blue spends many a floor just going for the first turn Arcane: Shield, and then doing nothing else (except the occasional PsychoArmor/Grail/StarlightHeal/Tower/Death) with his time until he gets Time Magic.
Depending on how far you see floor 1 in SMRPG, Bowser has either three or four shots of Terrorize. 3 if you take it before/during Bandit's Way, 4 if you let him get up to Mack. I just made a quick run-through of that far, and those are the numbers I was able to pull up. That's fun, right?
If things don't die to one Emily attack... They're either physical immune, or she's not hitting them hard enough. Lucia has Rage, and Lilka eventually gets MageWeapon (MAYBE HypeWeapon/Armor Down with an E Crest later on), if she opts for that over Quick. So Emily will start to hit things MUCH harder turn 2.
Floor 2 on, though... If a target is susceptible to Fear, they will tink for damage. Yes, even physicals against Blue (Arcane: Shield is fun like that).
The general idea is STILL Realm (forced) - Arcane - Light/Shadow (I'm leaning Light, but... Eh, they're both a shade of suck right here) - Floor 4 - Floor 5 - Time - Broked.
MUCH better than my previous team ideas, right?
I really wish my sleep schedule didn't have me as asleep/working while most of you are up and paying attention in #DungeonTalk... And me awake and asking for help while I'm standing in a room of people with sleep schedules resembling non-vampires.
EDIT: I suppose I'm NOT happy with this team then. Huh. So much for this team after talking to super and Sage.
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Hm. I have to ask, why Lucia? Her main niches (MP restoration and buffing) honestly won't benefit this team much (Lilka Quicking Emily probably covers offense far better than Lucia's more restrictive, resource-wise, options would for a long time and is available off the bat. Lucia's MP healing doesn't come in early enough for Blue to actually -care- for it when he's alive), and the lack of a second healer/reviver (no, Blue doesn't count as a healer/reviver off -those- stats, and he's the world's biggest lynchpin as is) makes Lilka the world's second biggest lynchpin. Preferrably someone with solid MT healing and revival that doesn't have targetting issues, because that's another gaping wound in your setup. It's a workable setup, but these points need addressing stat.
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Lucia is basically still there for late-game near-infinite-Overdrive (since as far as I know, only TimeLord has the once-per-floor Overdrive restriction), but she has other uses too!
1. Covering holes in status defense. This will happen eventually.
2. Boosting damage. Lucia has Rage and Gale (and Shield, which is admittedly less useful), making Emily (or Lilka for Gale only, if need be) hit harder and more often.
3. MP recovery. Yeah, both Bowser and Blue benefit from this. Bowser more so, since Blue will probably only be using a paltry amount of JP a fight (Arcane: Shield has initiative, and would cost him 1 JP... Yeah.) I do have to admit, Bowser's spells ARE expensive, so being able to spam status would be a boon.
4. Healing. It... Actually gets better as she goes along, since it's based on MHP%, and covering higher percentages?
5. Her buffs. It has been covered before, but her buffs stack with everyone else's, making things FAR more potent. Even a possible chance of exploiting a Fire weakness with Emily's physical eventually.
These really are my biggest points for keeping Lucia in there, but I'm open for changing for what's actually necessary.
Also, for Blue... Yeah, floor 2 through floor 5, he'll just be there to cast Arcane: Shield and other random piddly things. The Initiative off that making physicals weep a bit (FAQ says it cuts damage by about a third) is all I'd really use him for until floor 6 or 7, when he finally gets the money skills.
...Then again, I'm really starting to think I should've posted this in Brainstorming instead of here.
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Lucia is basically still there for late-game near-infinite-Overdrive (since as far as I know, only TimeLord has the once-per-floor Overdrive restriction
The Overdrive restriction applies to Blue as well. Ask Neph about it.
1. Covering holes in status defense. This will happen eventually.
Blitzing and status healing is usually a more effective approach to status holes than Lucia's oils, which require her to constantly recast them to boot. You've probably noticed that the Status Symbol Law doesn't get a whole lot of mileage, and there's good reason for it. Status immunities are a neat niche, but there are multiple ways to cover for them, and Lucia is probably one of the least efficient methods for that, especially when you have a lack in other areas.
2. Boosting damage. Lucia has Rage and Gale (and Shield, which is admittedly less useful), making Emily (or Lilka for Gale only, if need be) hit harder and more often.
Rage probably won't be terribly useful (crit rate increase isn't a reliable offense booster). If you want to actually boost physical damage, Lilka may well be the better option there, given how Mageweapon and Hypeweapon actually apply to Emily's physical base (even if they're probably worthless anyway), and Quicken > Gale as well. Lilka's offense is just unsalvageable, and she'll be so busy healing with this setup she probably won't use it much anyway.
3. MP recovery. Yeah, both Bowser and Blue benefit from this. Bowser more so, since Blue will probably only be using a paltry amount of JP a fight (Arcane: Shield has initiative, and would cost him 1 JP... Yeah.) I do have to admit, Bowser's spells ARE expensive, so being able to spam status would be a boon.
The only spell Bowser is going to ever use (Terrorize) is fairly cheap outside of the first two floors (where Lucia doesn't even have MP healing!). MP healing doesn't give him much mileage at all. Blue has been covered.
4. Healing. It... Actually gets better as she goes along, since it's based on MHP%, and covering higher percentages?
Doesn't target her and is expensive. Using Lucia's oils for healing is impressively inefficient, since she can't even cover full MT. When you -perennially- need multiple healers to cover a single round of MT healing, your survival is in jeopardy.
5. Her buffs. It has been covered before, but her buffs stack with everyone else's, making things FAR more potent. Even a possible chance of exploiting a Fire weakness with Emily's physical eventually.
Your buffs at base aren't too hot, though, and Lucia's oils build at quite a leisurely pace. If you want high-profile stacking action, you need your backup support to not be WA2 buffs (only Quicken is really worth your time there). You're amazingly unlikely to exploit weaknesses in the dungeon to boot. Lucia just seems a pretty poor choice there, your team isn't well-suited for the kind of buffing she synergizes with.
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I'd recommend dumping Bowser and Lucia for FFT Monk and a .5. probably either Rand, Priest or Nina 3. This would give you the MP healing you want while also giving you a little more revival. Additionally you could give the Speed? sealstone to Blue which would support the team's offense really well. When Blue eventually gets his speed up from guns you can toss the Speed? sealstone on Rand if you choose him. This would result in a team that is fast, has a decent amount of healing and damage, and also has a few neat tricks they can use if they need to.
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Lucia is basically still there for late-game near-infinite-Overdrive (since as far as I know, only TimeLord has the once-per-floor Overdrive restriction
The Overdrive restriction applies to Blue as well. Ask Neph about it.
Yeah, I think that needs to be done, since the only thing documented is that Blue's not allowed to go for messing with the Overdrive/StasisRune trick.
2. Boosting damage. Lucia has Rage and Gale (and Shield, which is admittedly less useful), making Emily (or Lilka for Gale only, if need be) hit harder and more often.
Rage probably won't be terribly useful (crit rate increase isn't a reliable offense booster). If you want to actually boost physical damage, Lilka may well be the better option there, given how Mageweapon and Hypeweapon actually apply to Emily's physical base (even if they're probably worthless anyway), and Quicken > Gale as well. Lilka's offense is just unsalvageable, and she'll be so busy healing with this setup she probably won't use it much anyway.
Actually, Rage is a 42% (36% if you don't allow Technical Rings) boost to physical ATK power. Gale is at the same percentages for speed. They both combine with other buffs, making it a rather... Ah... Interestingly powerful experience. There's a couple of Crit up oils in the skillset, but they're WAY later.
Lilka would only be attacking if a battle required me to use magic to win, though (or she was hitting a weakness!). Otherwise, yes. Buffing is more powerful from her.
Still, I'm realizing that the point is that Lucia doesn't quite work as well in this party, so I could always switch her out for Tear. Lots of healing there, decent stun/damage in Nightmare, other interesting tricks, restores TP with her physical... Charge, if I ever wanted to bother... Yeah, I like that idea. Annoying once she runs into interpretation splits; it'll be worse for her, but... Until then, it seems viable.
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In light of recent changes:
Tidus (3.5)
Mew (6.5)
Lucian + Shiho (9)
Rosa (11)
Mew gets the firefly sealstone.
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Changing Mint and Nall for Rosa on my team. Early revival and good status > end-battle 1 HP revival and lolMint.
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Hilariously, after an hour or so of poking, I have come up with...nearly the exact same team I made before a few years ago.
Oh, but the differences are so very *key*. And it'd be hilarious to see it ride again. Or go down in flames. Either or.
Demi(3.5), Purim(3), Princess Toadstool(3), Brey(1), Rand holding Firefly Sealstone(.5).
Purim is, to my mind, out and out better than Momo was for the team build. Real status. MT healing. MT revival if I'm not crazy(though it takes years). Lucent frigging Barrier. Oh yes. This is the stuff. Eventually. But, Momo was ST healing and an okay boomstick out of the box too. Not that much better.
Rand that people have to hit complements the team spectacularly, as he's essentially a free turn against ST spammers...and MT spammers, the team was, interestingly, already good at dealing with, though ST status eats him...if it's fatal, otherwise they have to keep beating on him. The revival taking place between battles is no big deal. The only thing he's there for is his game-best durability soaking up a round or so of blows while everyone important lives longer. (ALSO HE HAS COUNTERS!!11!1one)
The team has less damage though. Less. Damage. Than the original revision. An already horribly anemic on damage team, despite the huge amounts of everything else. Admittedly Brey tends to live longer enough of the time to balance that out...maybe. But. I like to think the eventual failure in the team could be solved by more tanking instead of the old blitz-requirement I had before when I was going to remake a team. Am I right? Who knows.
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Switching out Raquel with Chaz, so...
Rika, Chaz, Sacred Slayer, Claude Kenni (Status Symbol)
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Team for the trainwreck value, woo! All characters from my favorite video game series ever, Shadow Hearts!
Yuri 2 - 3.5
Shania - 3.5
Blanka - 1.5
Ricardo - 1.5
Lucia - 1.0 (Resourceless)
Of course, I'd very willingly drop Resourceless if it lets me get a different Synergy bonus or something.
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...Hm. Interesting team, that (It's Blanca, idly. No electric green muscleman hype for you). My only hesitation is revival is slow to come for non-Yuri people; if you can't get a better bonus from a Synergy or something (unsure, but it is kinda hard to make everyone from one game, you've kept it to SH2/3 which have largely similar systems outside of Stock vs. Combos), you may want to consider the awesome that is Ricardo w/Life. Resourceless is awesome for Lucia, sure - but I wanna say you need the revival more.
Regardless, good offense, at least three people I kneejerk as above average (and Yuri2 wins average tiebreaks due to being from a CTB game/being the "PC" here, and he should be >average until Kurando signs up)... yeah, that's actually pretty cool. Revival's your one thorn but that's usually an issue for SH people.
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I can't think of any particularly interesting quirks about the SH battle system that would benefit a Synergy team... They don't revive after battle, do they? I'd think that Magic Combos and such are already available to this team under the "Dual Tech" clause or whatever-you'd-call-it. I suppose handing out Crest Magic for someone like Lucia could be useful and might count as a Synergy bonus... >.>;;
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Getting Crest Magic would be the main bonus I could think of, yeah. (This could also address the revival issue).
Then again, since the Crest Magic system's kinda different between the two games I'm not sure how well that'd work for "synergy".
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Well, true... But they do have incredible amounts of similarity. In either case, you're equipping the spells you want to use, SH2 just has it in spell bundles with a DCP limit, while in SH3, you're only limited by the spaces on the Stellar Charts and what Stellars you have... Not that the Stellar Charts can't be altered. It's fairly cheap, depending on what you want done.
In either case, one is equipping spells, SH3 is just more direct about letting you have the spells you want without overlap.
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This is true. ...and my brain just thought of a potentially very silly "synergy" gimmick; let both groups combo and gain stock. >_>
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Changing my team then.
1. Bardiche | Jerin, Eileen, Lucian & Shiho, Garnet, Nall
to
1. Bardiche | Deis2, Eileen, Lucian & Shiho, Eiko, Nall
Still the MT stone on Lucian.
So much discussion going on here, for a moment I thought this was Brainstorming!
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See, I'm not the only person who can't figure out which topic is what.
-----
Vaguely toying around with trying to use SPAR.
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Spar w/ Life.
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Nah.
A. Yuna, Terra, Aigis, Eiko, Spar (Speed?) is my initial impulse.
EDIT: Mmm. Spar does get lategame Def Up X/Atk Up/Shield... problem is that they're lateish (Floor 5?). Agi/Pwr/Def Down aren't bad but gut says not as good as those three... hm. Also has HUSH from the start, boss accuracy with it is 70% but no clue if that's PC as well.
Regardless, A. Yuna and later Eiko can work to cover that lightning weakness, Terra/Aigis cover offense pretty well (and Eiko/Spar can chip in, with Yuna help endgame).
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Team change!
Celes (3.5)
Alys (3.0)
Lucian & Shiho (2.5)
Ayla w/Life Sealstone (2.0)
Let the Kiss hype begin!
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After some thinking, I'm making a couple more changes:
Orlandu is going back to 4.0. Sorry kids.
FF5 Chemist is being removed, go choose Bartz.
FFT Chemist is going to 2.5.
Ryu3 officially has Masters now. Momo now have Enemy Skills.
Erk has sex-changed into Nino.
Mint is .5 now.
Oh and WA1o Jack is back as 2.5.
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Here's a team idea I'm looking at:
Chris Lightfellow (3.0)
Chemist FFT (2.5)
Sharanda (2.0)
Ninja Disgaea (1.5) w/ Firefly
The basic idea is to spoil Magic and Physicals simultaneously. ITE or MT Physicals or Status-inducing physicals are the main problems with the team.
Chris starts Floor 1 with 1 charge of Silent Lake thanks to the new ruling that she starts with the TWR. FFT Chemist can get HP/MP healing on Floor 1, so he can restore Chris' Silent Lake charge every battle if necessary (WHILE SL is active even, go go item healing!). Sharanda gets pseudo-Magic items on Floor 1, so there's no concerns about being unable to hit physical-resistant types while SL is up. Dis Ninja isn't a -great- damage dealer, but he dodges everything, so he gets the Firefly rune. Magic doesn't work, and Ninja laughs at anything that isn't ITE, so my squishy Chemist/Shana shouldn't have trouble staying alive. Chris' physical damage is pretty respectable, but the team could probably use some more. She also gets revival as long as SL isn't up.
So I have an interesting idea here, but I also have 2 points to fill in the gaps. A solid Middle (or a Light + Nall) is what I'm looking for. Right now I'm debating between a generic damage dealer (Claude), a damage dealer with some magic options (Maria), or more revival (Alicia or Nall+somebody).
Suggestions?
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What wouldn't be a bad idea in that team, Djinn, is having someone who can get status attached to physicals pretty early. I'm not really sure on quite a lot of dungeon choices, but status can definitely help you through a lot of the fights, especially on those fights that can get in attacks before Chris can SL.
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In an exercise of trainwreck and hilarity and upon Hatbot confirming that I should try it I present Glen's Stalling team of *Psyduck*
Cloud(4.0)+ACF Cecilia(2.5)+Lilka(2.0)+Emma(1.5)+Raja(1.0) with Status Symbol Law.
Actually more confident in my previous team, but this one just seemed to lulz worthy to not at least try.
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Well... it certainly has a lot of healing.
Although with the right Cloud setup, you coud still blitz things, so it's not the worst stalling team ever.
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It mostly came to fruition because I found out ACF Cecilia defensive buffs minus Retaliate are MT, and apparently they cut damage instead of raise defense? So I thought "Lets put together a bunch of healers with endless resources and people with damage reduction buffs."
What I can up with is what you see there >.>.
Do I expect Protect + Shield + Blessing for over 60% physical reduction hype to actually work? No, not really.
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By the way:
Body Charge Sealstone Increases the stats of a character by 1.5 times, but increases their point cost by 50%. This cannot be used on anyone above 3.0 cost.
.5s -> 1.0
1.0 -> 1.5
1.5 -> 2.0
2.0 -> 3.0
2.5 -> 3.5
3.0 -> 4.5
Move along, nothing to see here.
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Oh, hmm, somewhat technical question. If all these stat altering seal stones work directly on stats, you could have some wonky effects depending on how direct games factor stats in. Example: Body Charged MK 2 endgame character's damage would more than double. Body Charged S4 Warlock's damage would...not change at all. Throw that on Jude, and his speed jumps from 137%ish to 300%+. So, I don't know if aspects like this are meant to be taken advantage of, or you wanted a more standardized effect?
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Yikes. Yeah, agree with Dhyerwolf. My suggestion for the Status Symbol Law when it was originally proposed was "-10% damage, -10% accuracy, -10% HP, -10%MP, -10% Defense, -10% Magic Defense, -10% speed" all explicitly applied to the end result, not the underlying stats. I don't think SSL using -10% to actual base stats rather than the result is too big a deal since it's only 10%, but with 50%, the differences become enormous. I think that'd definitely work better if it was a flat "+50% (effects)" rather than the underlying stat. Otherwise voters would have to figure out all sorts of counterintuitive details that depend heavily on the vagaries of the underlying system.
For another notable example, basically any Fire Emblem character with this sealstone is an absurdly brutal killing machine that is likely also a super-tank evade monster. Dhyerwolf's example is probably the best, though, Jude gets to horribly OHKO everyone out the gate with Assault Buster. (Jude would still be ridiculous even with only a flat bonus, of course - think he still OHKOs with Assault Buster there, since according to the stat topic a +56% effective speed boost more than doubles his damage.)
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Hm, that is true. Back to the drawing board on that one.
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Much sadness ensues =-(
*scraps evil plottin'*
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Having it apply to end results works. Just say HP, MP, Effective Speed, Damage +50%, Damage taken cut by 33% (Effective result of the defenses+50%. Doubles durability with the HP boost!), and raw evade and accuracy up 50% (Not like raw accuracy usually really needs a 50% boost!).
Hmm, this could still make some characters pretty monsterous (Like...Lyn. She's now fast, seriously pain inducing, durable even to ITE, laughs at things that aren't ITE, and if that crit rate doubles? Ouch) Yeah, I guess this still isn't quite perfect. Maybe just Speed/Base Damage/Defenses and maybe evade?
I should note that SSL should probably be the same since you go on raw stats...WA 2 characters lose 10% durability because lol WA 2 defense stats. CT characters lose a ridiculous amount (at endgame at least) because a 10% difference translates to something ridiculous (Robo losing 10% of his defense might translate to taking like 30% more damage, but comes out to more like 40% with that HP loss).
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Honestly, I think the mult to stats is more interesting. The stone should work fine with a lower mult to stats (I'd still use it with like a 1.2x mult, for example).
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KOSMOS
Arc
Sasarai
White Wizard
Marisa
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And on that note, I think I'll do my team assessment now as well.
Cielo - He suffers horribly to status, and his skillset is average at best up until F4/5. Seems to be very much a niche pick, and is just too weak/frail when used with SSL, which is the only decent way to make him usable. Honestly, I don't think he's worth the cost at the moment. 3/10, unfortunately. :(
Juan - Holy crap, SSL must've been made for this guy. Still has brutal offence throughout thanks to being compared to weaker characters, and doesn't have the problem of Waking Rune any more. Still has amazing speed and the power to OHKO some characters for such a low cost. A++, would buy again, etc. 10/10.
Geno - SSL really didn't seem to hurt him at all, and he's damn amazing either way. Geno Boost is one of the best buffs you'll see, and I can imagine Geno being used well with the MT Sealstone because of that and Geno Whirl. Has good offence regardless, and just needs to be placed on a team with decent healers and/or defensive buffs to destroy stuff. 9/10. (Loses a point for durability issues.)
Yukiko - Healer, reviver, damage.. You need it, she's got it. Except buffs and debuffs, but who needs those? Yukiko is pretty much the perfect mage, it seems, and she really proved to be for my team. Spent the first couple of floors helping out with the damage, then switched to healing/reviving come Floor 3, and managed both brilliantly. Would only get better later on with Endure, but still hates the below average speed in the Dungeon. Also dies to FFT/FF9 equips. 7/10.
Rosa - Frail, slow, and an average healer skillset. Nothing special at all, didn't really help me in the slightest outside of 'generic revival'. Early revival is good, but I'm sure there are better choices for the same/a lower cost. 1/10.
Next up: 3-man team or Healer team? Hatbot decides!
[13:20] <Yoshiken> Hatbot: 3-man team or healer team?
[13:20] <+Hatbot> Go for 3-man team, Yoshiken.
[13:21] <Yoshiken> ...
[13:21] <Yoshiken> Screw you, Hatbot. I'm choosing healers.
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I would argue that you simply never got to take advantage of Rosa's good status spells, which may have increased her value a bit for you.
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Ok Neph, I'll have Margaret tonight. I assume she'll be the boss of floor 1, right? And Shadow Yosuke will be the 10th floor boss?
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Ok Neph, I'll have Margaret tonight. I assume she'll be the boss of floor 1, right? And Shadow Yosuke will be the 10th floor boss?
Damn straight! First turn and no extra damage from weakness!!!1!one!!
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Likewise, Neph I am rushing through WA4 again to get Ragu4 stats and am ushering Glen to get Ragu XF stats. I can probably also get Ragu 3 stats. We will see floor RAGUUU!!! right?
PS: I also have random WA4 boss stats up! Can we see them in the dungeon too?
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Well, wasn't satisfied with the joke team, so I think I might have come up with a team that manages to be interesting that doesn't fail quite as hard:
Deis2(3.5) + Jack Van Burace(2.5) + ACF Cecilia (2.5) + Eiko(1.5) + Raja(1.0)(Speed?)
Comments/Criticism?
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I will be changing the Firefly Sealstone to the following:
Firefly - The first single target attacks of the enemy are redirected to the bearer of this sealstone.
The teams currently in the dungeon will use the old effect until they complete their run.
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Does that mean buffing and such works on them?
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It would, yes.
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So, is that one ST attack from each enemy, but only one? Hmm, might actually be worth using now. :o
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It is one ST attack from each enemy, no matter when they decide to use it.
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So, since Neph's allowed it, despite it being over 11 points, because of the theme... I present to you:
The Great MOUSTACHE Team!
Athos
Adray
Moulder
Galuf (replaces Bartz. Has a moustache.)
and ALAKAZAM.
Awesome, no? 8-)
(Thanks to Dude for helping out with the team. ;p)
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Team breakdown. (What?)
Kyogre: Magical nuke of a rarely-blocked element. Yeah. Drizzle/Scary Face/his own buffing simply made the package even more monstrous, and being able to set up for early, very relatively speedy MT water damage thanks to the sealstone sealed the package. I... think he got overhyped at a few points, though? Was honestly preparing to hype my buffing a lot earlier. Still, shiny.
Maya: More people need to play Persona 2. This being said, when her function went from "second damage mage" to "buff whore" I think it simplified things for people. MT 1.5x permabuffs are shiny, Maia Custom is brutal ravagings for her time. That's about it. Was more than worth the 3.0.
Garnet: Does everything well without needing to really specialize in anything. Gets shiny aftergame options! And choosing the fullheal paths kept her able to heal and buff for longer.
Kyra: Didn't get enough hype. Those offense down/defense up buffs were why I never really feared the physical slugfest fights all too much - with both her and Maya around to blunt the impact of damage to silly levels, I was pretty well off for most of the Dungeon. Falls behind a bit endgame/aftergame, but that buff/debuff game is still shiny.
Priest: Actually saw use in passing a few fights via being a twinkable speedy Esuna user! Surprising. Mainly there to act as another reviver/healer, kinda purposefully never hyped that damage too much if ever. Still.
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To be fair, in Kyra's case, it's questionable regarding on whom Telele works (MDEF-based, doesn't work on PS4 bosses, which either means PS4 bosses can't be statdowned or they don't work on bosses), and Warla is Floor 5+...
Also, speaking of PS4, new team setup!
Rika(4.0)
Celes(3.5)
Lucian+Shiho(2.5)
Tia(1.0)
Sealstone:Life
Pros: Rika's money abilities come in early, and Celes also gets some spell options. Shiho has VP1 Might Reinforce, which can make Disrupt, Doubleslash, and Lucian physicals good. Can potentially have four revivers around endgame, each with healing as well. Lucian has the infamous Shining Bolt attack on his side. Saner+Runic combo can potentially wall a variety of opponents.
Cons: Celes is guaranteed to be on the slow side. Damage potential feels to be average at best. Durability isn't that notable. Non-Rika/Tia fighters are average/below-average speed until the second turn. Early damage is unimpressive, and damage never gets that good.
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It should be noted that, IIRC, Celes's Runic only picks up a max of one spell between uses, and your allies' spells are subject to this as well.
I distinctly remember having Celes use Runic, Locke cast Fire2, Celes absorbing that Fire2, and then the boss blasting me with Bio2 before the start of Celes's next turn... So you do have to watch out for walling yourself while walling others.
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I fully know that. At the same time, it seems like Celes is going to be the slowest person on the team anyway (Stat topic puts her at just below average speed. Rika and Tia are fast, Lucian and Shiho are flat average), so...
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Not to mention that Runic is more like a -really- small niche. If anything, it's basically a somewhat pointless icing that translates better than it has any right to in the dungeon. Celes has so much more going for her, including in ways to be anti-magical.
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Well aware. It's still a decent niche for when it works, at least. And I admit that Runic alone wasn't the only reason I chose her. (FF6 spell variety is nuts, amongst other things.)
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BC DW3 Sage, Aeonless Yuna, Yosuke, Rand, Rena
This team. It will fail. So painfully. So very painfully.
But until I think of something funnier I'm going with it because goddamn it amuses me too much.
EDIT: Ahahaha disregard.
Shania, Sage, Kurando, Hawkeye, Tia. Firefly sealstone.
Aside from Tia, the team's pretty much entirely new to the Dungeon! And transform Kurando's pretty shiny. Gives Shania/Sage a turn to go "lol enemies". Fast MT damage is poison, but we burn that bridge after I cross it.
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That's a fun team if it can get going. Shania and Kurando have some decent synergy with the combo system and the team has lots of buffing options. The team does struggle pretty fiercely early on though.
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Yeah, the earlygame's kinda painful, but Firefly giving Sage any time period is pretty shiny. Iunno, will be fun to see if it dies horribly or not. >_>
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Making a SLIGHT alteration to my team set-up.
Yuri 2 - 3.5
Shania - 3.5
Blanca - 1.5
Ricardo - 1.5
Lucia - 1.0 (Life Sealstone)
Yes, the only change is what sealstone I'm using. I am actually very confident in how this team will hold up.
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Miakis (4.0)
Seifer (1.0)
Red XIII (2.5)
Sasarai (2.5)
FFT Priest (0.5)
Team for now. Will most likely change after people happily pick it apart and call it a failure. ^^;
All above average speed, potential for strong damage, a lot of which can be MT, two revivers, three if you count Sas who can pull it off with his Flowing Rune, if it's truly necessary. And Seifer. Yeeeeeeah.
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Well, Sasarai just seems like a good pick with Miakis. He really covers her slow start. I'm not sure how much synergy Seifer brings to your team, but otherwise looks good.
You're going to need to look out for status and ID a lot though. Might consider trading in Red and Seifer for one of the status-immune robots or something...?
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Well, Sasarai just seems like a good pick with Miakis. He really covers her slow start. I'm not sure how much synergy Seifer brings to your team, but otherwise looks good.
You're going to need to look out for status and ID a lot though. Might consider trading in Red and Seifer for one of the status-immune robots or something...?
Well, Sas has an MT status curing spell, and FFT Priest's got Esuna.
Demi might be decent? MT revive and status immunity is nice. In terms of numbers, I'd rather have five than four, and I could probably just sub out Seifer for... Cray w/ Speed? again, because that worked pretty dynamically well for me the last time I did it. Heh, but you're right, Seifer isn't exactly perfect for this team.
But STILL, I feel I've got a point to prove that Seifer is not nearly as bad as anyone thinks him to be. ;p
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He's not -bad-, but I think there needs to be some way to ensure he's getting a Limit to make him worthwhile.
Firefly perhaps?
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I thought Seifer can get a limit at full HP?
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I thought Seifer can get a limit at full HP?
He can. 40% chance at full HP, which only increases as his HP decreases.
And... hmm, Firefly on Seifer might not be a bad idea. He's durable enough. I could put it on Miakis later with a Steel Rune or something.
EDIT: Alrighty, posting my team!
Miakis (4.0)
Seifer (1.0) w/ Firefly
Red XIII (2.5)
Sasarai (2.5)
FFT Priest (0.5)
EDIT2: Yeah, old team was worth 10.5, and for some reason, that's entirely messed up what I had planned. ;p Back to the drawing board.
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Billy (3.0)
Sasarai (2.5) w/Resourceless
Sacred Slayer (2.0)
Eiko (1.5)
Monk (1.0)
Nall (1.0)
In comes the divine team: a Priest, a High Priest, an Onmyouji, a summoner, and a Monk. Also a dragon for no reason in particular.
Of course, the idea is for Billy to Haste things while Sacred Slayer does the Turn Shift thing to get Sasarai and Monk going. Peppita to make it awfulEiko to provide more healing and revival. Limited revival from previous idea, and SS's healing isn't STELLAR, but what can you do.
This team is going to be a trainwreck.
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Good luck! <(^^)>
Orlandu (4.0)
Terra (3.0)
Peppita (1.5)
Eiko (1.5)
Siefer (1.0)
Me likes~
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Just a note, Peppita's moving to 2.0, Eileen to 3.0, Fogel to 4.0 and Ronfar's being added as a 1.5. Please change your teams accordingly!
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Let's make this official
Status Symbol Law
Ness (3)
Cielo (3)
Nina 1 (3)
Raja (1)
Seifer (1)
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Just a note, Peppita's moving to 2.0
>.> <.< >.>
Does she get CCS with that? <.<
Sounds like I missed some discussion! Ohohoho so people finally caught on to my evil plan ^_~
(yeah Pep was too cheap before but I didn't want to beat people unconsious with the hype to the point of overkill annoyance >.>)
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Y'know what? Let's try something different.
Kratos (2.5)
Red XIII (2.5)
Claude (2.0)
Kyra (2.0)
Lilka (2.0)
Status Symbol Law
Will this team explode? Hell yes. But the idea amuses me too much and I want to see how far it can get.
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After some thinking, I decided to move the Life Sealstone over to Lucia for F1.
Reasons:
Lucia... Doesn't really have much else to spend her MP on, besides a few basic non-expensive buffs.
Ricardo basically starts with MP Regen for everyone else, so that's a more important thing to spend his MP on. Besides, means I'm not gimping his Arc Cure for now.
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Okay, team redesign because
Neph is a meanie and won't let me abuse underpriced PCs anymore =( some point shuffling was rightfully made:
Speed? Sealstone, stuck primarily on Raja.
Geno (3.0)
Ryu3 (3.0)
Deis 1 (3.5)
Raja (1.0)
FFT Priest (0.5)
I'm so going to regret this. Scratch my former team.
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Hello everyone. I've been lurking on this board for a while now, and I always liked this game, so I've finally decided to register to try and give it a shot. :)
I hope you don't mind newcomers joining your dungeon. <<
So if it's alright, without further ado, I present to you my team:
Lenneth (3.5)
Aika (2.5)
Alicia (2.0)
Kevin (1.5) (Firefly)
Strago (1.5)
Since it's my first try, and I lack experience, I might fail pretty hard, but I'll still give this team a shot. After all, it has the awesomeness of Strago in it.
I'll give you a detailed breakdown on how this team is supposed to work and what I plan to do with it later, when I'm less tired.
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Yeah, I'm curious. I like Lenneth as a tankish healer, and Alicia helps to support that, too. Huh. That's actually pretty cool - the lack of MT is offset by damn, the team should have pretty competent resource pools.
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Alicia and Lenneth can probably rack up a PWS between the two of them, too.
Lenneth doesn't get Glance Reviver until floor 7, so damage is... supplied mostly by Kevin. But Lenneth and Alicia have VP2 Might Reinforce. So that should be alright.
I guess the lack of good MT is the only thing, but there are floors to bypass that.
Huh. Part of me likes that team. The other is scratching its head thinking there is something missing.
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I also like that you picked up Strago. Speed may be an issue, since the only person who isn't average or below for speed there is Aika, but there were non-speedy teams that made waves in the Dungeon.
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Knight (FF1) works better than Kevin offhand. He lacks Kevin's raw physical smash and healing late , but he does make an effective user of the firefly rune.
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The other is scratching its head thinking there is something missing.
The thing is, I have that feeling too, but I can't put my finger on what exactly it is.
You are both right of course, he lack of MT is quite a bother, but I think it should be doable. Strago provides it from the start, even if it's not amazing, it's ok. I was considering going down the light path with Kevin. That would give him a devastating MT physical starting on floor 3, and once he gets that, he becomes a serious threat if he gets the chance to pull it off. If I do that, I'd most likely go for the God Hand, which is just as strong as the Dervish anyway, and has Aura Wave, which can help him pull of the even stronger MT physical he gets then if given a round of ramp up time.
So yeah, I think I see now what might become an issue here. The team lacks speed and relies mainly on survivability to get through the floors. Early on damage might be a bit lacking because of the limited MT, and later on it might struggle because it needs a little ramp up time in some fights. Damage is also heavy on the physical side, which might be an issue against teams that deal well with that kinda thing.
Then again, the idea behind this team was to beat the dungeon with superior survivability and resources rather than pure damage potential, and I think it will do a fine job of just that. Another thing to keep in mind is that it also has some nice status options to balance the lack of MT in some situations. Aika's confuse is not bad, and Strago, once he gets his better stuff, will most likely really start to shine. After all, later on, he does have a nasty status option for almost any situation.
Edit:
Wow, while I was posting, there were two new replies. It's great that there's so much feedback on this team, thanks alot guys.
About the Knight: Actually, I was considering him, since his tank potential is just sick. My main concern with him, and the reason why I ultimately picked Kevin, was the fact that this team would seriously lack damage potential if Kevin was left out. Just like you said, while he is great with firefly, he just can't deal as much damage. With the amount of healing present in this team, I'm just hoping Kevin will be tanky enough to pull i through.
As for Strago, part of the reason I'm using him is because I really like him. He's an awesome character, and he deserves some time in the dungeon. Apart from that, I can see tons of potential within him if he's got the team to support that.
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What role does Alicia fill, then? I just noticed she's in the team- are you trying to spam PWSes with Lenneth and Alicia? Mmm, that does make sense.
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The other is scratching its head thinking there is something missing.
The thing is, I have that feeling too, but I can't put my finger on what exactly it is.
I think I can put my finger on it: the speed spread and the low amount of crowd control. The dungeon heavily emphasizes blitzing in many situations, and you need both speed and offense to do it - there's a reason Deis1 is a 3.5 in spite of being very one-dimensional. You did have the mind to actually try to mitigate that with Firefly, at least, which helps a lot. The lack of strong MT healing (besides Aika, I guess?) is probably also going to prove problematic in a few cases. Your team is mostly reliant on evadable physicals for offense too, which is a problem - evadable physicals are the most easily walled damage type in the DL and in the dungeon. In spite of all those drawbacks, it's still a decent team, particularly for a first attempt. It's noticeable where you tried to create synergy and compensate for flaws, and that's a good skill to have when engaging in teambuilding.
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Aika's MT healing sucks and puts a huge strain on her SP resources. It almost never comes up in the dungeon.
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Right. Then, I guess I'll just punt Djinn into a hole dipped in acid for hyping it at some point~
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I never hyped Aika's MT Healing, I always considered her Green magic to be backup ST healing. Tear (MT) and Aeris (doesn't do anything else unless I needed her limits) were my main healers.
Also, Miata's team's speed spread isn't so bad if you see Kevin as better than average speed due to varying ARPG interps. That alone might swing enough votes to let his team pass more floors than using Knight, despite the better tanking.
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Oh, I didn't mean your team, I meant something like a year ago on an earlier team. I honestly didn't pay much attention to your team in the dungeon. >_>
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What role does Alicia fill, then? I just noticed she's in the team- are you trying to spam PWSes with Lenneth and Alicia? Mmm, that does make sense.
Yeah that's part of the reason why she's in there. It just adds a little bit of extra synergy to her. When I built the team, I was a bit struggling with who to put into that spot. I wanted someone else besides Lenneth who could revive and maybe act as a healer too, so the others can focus more on offense, and Alicia just seemed like the best pick here, since she also complements Lenneth quite well when it comes to pulling off a PWS.
The MT healing is an issue, but truth be told, I didn't find a way around that particular problem. I was hoping that with it's strong defenses and the exceptionally good ST healing, the team would pull through.
Also, thanks to Jo'ou for analyzing the team and giving feedback on where the teams weaknesses lie. Once again, thank you all for giving me so much constructive feedback and helping a newcomer out with getting started.
After all this analysis, I don't actually know how far the team will get in the dungeon, but I'm more eager than ever to give it a try and see how it goes.
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Only decent MT healer I see at 1.5 is Yukiko.
Strago does have White Wind! That just is late. Come to that, while Aqua Rake should be good early, he does have a long gap in between skills. I should hammer out a list with Meeple about Strago's lores.
Edit:
Lores:
Floor 1: Aqua Rake, Stone, Revenge, Step Mine
Floor 2: Condemned, Dischord
Floor 3: Pep up, Level 4 Flare, level 5 doom, level 3 muddle
Floor 4: Pearl Wind, Blow Fish, Big Guard, Rippler
Floor 5: Sour mouth, Reflect???, Aero, Clean sweep
Floor 6: Level ? Pearl, Grand Train
Floor 7: Forcefield, Quasar
Strago's got serious MP concerns early on and he's frail, but he is a neat pick.
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Only decent MT healer I see at 1.5 is Yukiko.
Yukiko has a few issues that really hurt her in the dungeon early. Ronfar and Eiko seem like the best choices if you want a healer who can heal from the start and don't have a lagging period.
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Eh. Scrapping my old idea and gonna go with something else.
Bartz (4.0)
Jerin (3.0)
Crono (2.0)
Ronfar (1.5)
Meru (0.5)
Not sure what to go with for a sealstone, if I opt for one at all.
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Eh. Scrapping my old idea and gonna go with something else.
Bartz (4.0)
Jerin (3.0)
Crono (2.0)
Ronfar (1.5)
Meru (0.5)
Not sure what to go with for a sealstone, if I opt for one at all.
What's your plan for Bartz? Your team probably needs him to focus on doing damage since the teams overall damage is pretty bad early. When I first saw it I didn't think that Ronfar and Jerin would work that well together because they fill such similar niches, but after thinking on it, I think it could work pretty well. Jerin gets really good healing but takes a while to get some of it whereas Ronfar gets his almost immediately but has resource issues early. So early on you can use Jerin for light healing and Ronfar for emergencies and eventually you end up with two very good healers with different speeds.
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Yeah, that was kinda the idea there with Ronfar/Jerin. Bartz I'll probably either hit people up for ideas or something, haven't really decided on much other than I want to do something other than Chemist cheese with him. Team's kinda backended on stuff, I know. Worst case I'll probably end up swapping Bartz/Crono for other people.
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If you decide to drop Crono you'll probably want to replace him with someone who is decent early and can do something to help Bartz's speed because Bartz can do some pretty brutal things, but he needs to get turns to do them. If you decide to drop Bartz you'll probably want to focus on fast MT blitzing. Jerin and Crono have it and you'll want to build on that strength. There aren't really any 4.0s who fit that category but there are a ton of 3.5s and 3.0s who do (Deis, Jessica and Rune come to mind). Additionally you'll have an extra .5-1 point depending on who you choose so you can go for a 1.0 or 1.5 instead of Meru if you want. Most of the other CT characters are in the 1.5-1.0 range and with the Speed? sealstone it's easier to get them to Crono's speed so that is an option.
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Is... Is there any reason that we're keeping this stickied? This stuff looks like it's been well and dead for months now - heck, the last post was March 14th of 2010.
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Because if it did get revived we'd have to wade through pages of stuff to find it again?
If we had more than two stickies on the board and they were overwhelming the normal threads it might be a problem but I don't see one as is...
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You can always take over for Nephrite if you ask with nice puppy dog eyes. I think interest was starting to wane so it'd make sense to take a break, though.
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Pffft. The interest is still there. It was just reaching the end of the season, meaning everyone was picking the same old characters to go against specific floors. A new structure and some more variety between the choices people get could easily get this back.
(And, y'know, I think I can safely say that the Dungeon is the one thing that actually got me into the DL, so I'd definitely be looking towards bringing this back ASAP. Maybe I'll poke Neph at some point soon if he doesn't check this first. >.>)
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I poked Neph and he said he'd try to get things back and running by the start of the next DL season.
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I have some ideas.
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If the dungeon's coming back, I think some new characters would be cool. FF13, Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn and DQ9 all have characters who I think would be interesting.
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I poked Neph and he said he'd try to get things back and running by the start of the next DL season.
So basically we must have another season.
For Nyarlie.
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Slight team alteration:
Bartz (4.0)
Jerin (3.0)
Millenia (2.5)
Raja (Speed? Sealstone) (1.0)
Meru (0.5)
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Meh. New team, may become outdated but uses two people I've always wanted to use but never got around to:
A. Yuna, Aigis, L:EBC Jean, Hilda, Speed? Hellion.
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Sure. Its been a long time, so I might as well have some fun.
Now presenting Team... Investigation Team!
Souji Seta (4)
Chie Satonaka (2)
Yosuke Hanamura (2)
Teddie (1.5)
Yukiko Amagi (1.5)
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Synergy Bonus: If Souji dies, team loses. However, all team members can sacrifice themselves to save Souji's ass.
"You have become friends with Yosuke!"
"Yosuke will now DIE FOR YOU!"
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To be fair, if Souji dies the team basically has no... real anything after that. >_>
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Reposting my newer team so people won't have to search back for it. Also because the LuShi pair went up a bit costwise.
Rika(4.0)
Celes(3.5)
Lucian+Shiho(3)
Rand(0.5)
Sealstone:Life (preferably placed on Rika)
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Still going to keep team Super Blitz
Deis 2
Emily
Jerin
Bowser (Speed?)
FFT Priest
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I want to make sure I have everyone who's posted a team thus far, as the Dungeon is now finished with its last batch. So, starting from here is a new season.
Team Random | Bartz, Jerin, Millenia, Raja (Speed?), Meru
Team Taishyr | Yuna, Aigis, Jean, Hilda, Hellion (Speed?)
Team Andy | Souji, Chie, Yosuke, Teddie, Yukiko
Team Nama | Rika, Celes, Lucian+Shiho, Rand (Life)
Team Dude | Deis, Emily, Jerin, Bowswer (Speed?), FFT Priest
Team Magic | Yuri 2, Shania, Blanca, Ricardo, Lucia (Life Sealstone)
Team Bardiche | Billy, Sasarai w/Resourceless, Sacred Slayer, Eiko, Monk, Nall
Team Djinn | Terra, Lenneth, Yuri1, DQ Hero, Ditto w/ QuickPowder
Team Super | Edgar, Maxim, Zemeckis and Hydra, Hawk, Kyra
Team Yoshiken MOUSTACHE | Athos, Adray, Moulder, Bartz with a Moustache, Alakazam
Team Miata
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Will I be on that list, too? (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,571.msg89779.html#msg89779)
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Still unchanged, too (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,571.msg91152.html#msg91152).
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Submitting a team to the rotation!
Team Meeple Fantasy 6
Terra (3.0)
Lenneth (3.5)
Yuri1 (3.5)
DQ Hero (0.5)
Ditto w/ QuickPowder (0.5)
LoveLove Sealstone~ (Might change this to Elem Adv if it gets changed)
Terra, Lenneth, and Yuri get a lot of status blockers between them, good elemental/magical damage output (and eventually some physical damage). Also, healing, healing, healing, and early revival~
And hey, everyone can vote on them!
DQ Hero and Ditto are just generics to fill in the for the MF6 cast members I couldn't afford~ (I would have loved to add Tir or Ike to this)
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Edgar (3), Maxim (2.5), Zemeckis and Hydra (2), Hawk (1.5), Kyra (2)
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We are missing a very mustached team somewhere in all this that I currently don't have the time to go and find. ;(
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It was on page 26, I added it!
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Cloud(4), WAo Jack(2.5), ACF Cecilia(2.5)(Neospeed), FFT Monk(1.5), Ditto(.5)(Quickpowder)
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I'm changing my team up, so it'll be:
Ivan (3.0)
Sasarai (2.5) w/ Resourceless
Eiko (1.5)
Sacred Slayer (2.0)
Jane (2.0)
Still working off the same idea where Sasarai does what Sasarai does best (HINT: nuke enemies), but this time a support team that can work more towards getting him that turn. Ivan's speedy damage will work out better than Billy's speed ups on floor 1, and on floor 2 having a speedy Sleep-slinger about is really darn useful. I do, of course, trade in healing for the status slinging, and lose after-battle revival and physical damage for Jane, but that's a sacrifice I'll have to make.
Idea, of course, is to hopefully carry the team to floor 4 after which Jane gives Sasarai a free pass to Land of Eternity -> Earthquake, which hopefully should deal with most if not all adversaries. If not, assume fetal position and cry a little, I suppose. If I can pass Floor 1 I should be able to take Floor 2 and 3, too. :V
Thinking of swapping Eiko for Emma. Yeah, I know, even LESS durability, and healing completely relies on Sasarai then. (whose durability is also not stellar) The upside is that an Earth Zone or Magic Zone will make Sasarai's ridiculous damage output more ridiculous if he needs it.
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Demi(PS4)(3.5), Princess Toadstool(SMRPG)(3), Edgar(FF6)(2.5)(Speed Sealstone), Eiko(FF9)(1.5), Ditto(Pokemons)(Quick Powder)(.5).
I tried my original team, then tried it again. Time to actually try the idea I had when my original team went down. The main hole in the build I decided at the time was less any of the basic ideas, and more that I really, really needed high-end fast status. Edgar can provide that, at the cost of making the entire team average speed or close to it, except Ditto.
Which may or may not work out, but it seems like it's worth a try.
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I detect a distinct need for the dungeon to REPENT.
By this I mean I am chaning my team to:
ZALMO (3.0)
Geno (3.0)
Lyn (2.0)
Tia w/Body Charge (1.5)
FF1 Knight (1.5)
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Modified version of the team I wanted to run with before. Feena w/spells is a little tricky to vote on so I have a lot of Final Fantasy balancing things out.
While I think that the "reverse speed" is a more flavorful way of running Speed?, in this case I'd hope that Nephrite runs with "sets to 120% speed turn 1" since FF6 speed is kind of wacky.
Celes (3.0)
Feena (2.5)
Red XIII (2.5)
Strago (1.5) (Speed?) EDIT: NeoSpeed
Ricardo (1.5)
Not really much of a theme this time, except for "characters I think are cool and perhaps underpriced." And Ricardo, since MP is a bit of a concern for Strago and Red, and none of the other 1.5 picks gelled too well. To declare in advance, I'll almost surely take [Fire] -> Water -> Earth -> Air for Mana Egg order on Feena.
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Because I enjoyed it so much last time, Violent Burst Law team!
Rikku (4.0) - As if common items weren't enough, now I get all the fun Overdrive stuff in a pinch. Speedy status is always a good plan.
Raquel (3.0) - We all know that Raquel + Violent Burst Law is a thing of beauty.
Hilda (2.0) - Speedy, some magic damage in the mix. VBL lets her double-act in a pinch!
Tear (1.0) - Decent healer/buffer with magic damage later and passable physical damage early on. Completely mediocre healbot except with VBL when you get a Once-per-Floor Mystic Arte nuke.
Aerith (1.0) - Just such a good deal with VBL. Seal Evil is a decent early status trick, but really shines with a Once-per-Floor I-win Invincibility button. Can't justify using Aerith without VBL.
Basically Rikku cheese + VBL shenanigans. Not terribly different from my previously VBL team except that it's not relying on the Aika/Cloud lolMagic/CoverPhysical cheese. Curious to see how it goes. Anyone have any better suggestions?
Had I 6 party slots, I'd have traded out Rikku cheese for Tidus and Ricardo, which seems like a more fun, less 'status-or-die' strategy. Eiko might also be an interesting option if I'm allowed to choose when to fire the Trance limit instead of it necessarily happening in the first fight of every floor?
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Put my team on hold while I think things over. Looking at the latest topic, I see that Speed? has changed again, and not in a way friendly toward Strago - the "120% flat" is nice for avoiding giant interp splits, but Strago really only cares about being accelerated out turn 1 to Sour Mouth / Big Guard, and then cheats the downside of old Speed? via being average speed past turn 2 anyway. Furthermore the 95% speed makes characters like Celes and Ricardo - who both would be a bit above average speed otherwise* - now crucially on the wrong side of the great average speed barrier. (*As a reminder on Celes, she's 34 Speed vs. a 33 average with no equipment, which isn't a huge deal until later. And usual provisos about Meeple's with-equips-average which has 2 Sneak Rings for both Locke and Gogo where Celes is a tad below average.)
Also, Neph, be sure to edit the opening post too, it still has classic Speed? there. ("The effective speed of one character is reversed (60% becomes 140%), but after the first round of combat, their speed returns to default and can not be increased in any way.")
Probably a topic more for the Brainstorming topic, but neoneoSpeed? seems to favor sticking on characters like Raquel, as they actually stay fast rather than getting just one turn to do something evil.
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I do admit, if you are throwing a character out to 120% flat turn 1, kind of a high level to keep them at.
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Put my team on hold while I think things over. Looking at the latest topic, I see that Speed? has changed again, and not in a way friendly toward Strago - the "120% flat" is nice for avoiding giant interp splits, but Strago really only cares about being accelerated out turn 1 to Sour Mouth / Big Guard, and then cheats the downside of old Speed? via being average speed past turn 2 anyway. Furthermore the 95% speed makes characters like Celes and Ricardo - who both would be a bit above average speed otherwise* - now crucially on the wrong side of the great average speed barrier. (*As a reminder on Celes, she's 34 Speed vs. a 33 average with no equipment, which isn't a huge deal until later. And usual provisos about Meeple's with-equips-average which has 2 Sneak Rings for both Locke and Gogo where Celes is a tad below average.)
Also, Neph, be sure to edit the opening post too, it still has classic Speed? there. ("The effective speed of one character is reversed (60% becomes 140%), but after the first round of combat, their speed returns to default and can not be increased in any way.")
Probably a topic more for the Brainstorming topic, but neoneoSpeed? seems to favor sticking on characters like Raquel, as they actually stay fast rather than getting just one turn to do something evil.
I would see Speed? as keeping Strago as 120% average speed, regardless of whatever stupid nonsense FF6 does.
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With neoSpeed?, certainly, because it says so outright. I was talking about old Speed?, whose downside was "returns speed to default, can't be increased in any way." Since Strago's default speed post-turn 1 is average, that's an irrelevant downside.
I suppose I should be more clear: neoSpeed? doesn't hose Strago, the new downside hoses the rest of my team when the old downside was irrelevant. (Which is fine!) And Strago doesn't get as much use out of staying fast.
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Got it!
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Team edited, I'll use NeoSpeed instead. The way NeoSpeed works now - with a speed boost out of the gate - should work nicely, even if Strago's turn 1 isn't quite as fast as it is under Speed?. Don't think there's much help in Strago getting continually faster if he survives, but at least I miss out on the new downside of Speed?.
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Reposting team with a change or two:
Souji
WAo Jack
ACF Cecilia(NeoSpeed)
Eiko
Ditto(quickpowder)
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Note to team makers: two revivers is pretty crucial! I threw this team together with characters who haven't really been used much,and didn't pick a second reviver. Hawk probably could have safely been subbed for one, since I have enough ST physical smash.
Edit: team thoughts, since I'm dead this round.
Edgar- Dominating for the first four floors, then absolute dead weight. Needs some kind of large floor 8 bonus to justify his cost.
Zemeckis/Hydra- Good pickup. They're not speedy and both are pretty 1-D, but you get two competent slugging PC's for two points and one slot.
Kyra- Ugh. I really, really felt the lack of revival from her. A healer with no revival or no MT healing is very limited in the dungeon. The buffs were neat, but I was underwhelmed. She may have been trying to do too much with the build.
Hawk- Solid enough. You know what you're getting- good enough damage and some late payoffs with the debuff skills.
Maxim- Good value. He's useful for the awesome, awesome MT healing and revival, and has a nifty skillset. Stats are pretty unremarkable, but the Lufia 2 magic skillset is nice.
The obvious flaws in the team were lack of revival, speed (EVERYONE was around average, this does not work in the dungeon) and Edgar being so painfully bad later on. I didn't have any real MT damage to speak of, either.
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Sure, why not - been a while since I submitted and participated. Let's do it!
Let's try an all-female team again:
Rikku (4)
Purim (3)
Kyra (2)
Yukiko (1.5)
Rena (0.5)
Screw sealstones - can I use Laggy-based game characters???
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That depends on which one you want.
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Cristo, Angelo, Solo, Alena, Brey, Nall- Status symbol law
Edit: Nall cosplaying Healie.
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Had I 6 party slots, I'd have traded out Rikku cheese for Tidus and Ricardo, which seems like a more fun, less 'status-or-die' strategy. Eiko might also be an interesting option if I'm allowed to choose when to fire the Trance limit instead of it necessarily happening in the first fight of every floor?
There is a question in there, so I'm repeating myself to see if someone can figure out what the answer is~
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I'll make an executive decision and say you can use Trance whenever because that was seriously the dumbest shit in the universe.
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Thoughts on team 'stache, since it's looking like I'm out on this floor.
Athos: Haha. Athos alone is ridiculous. The number of interp calls he gets in his favour is just nuts, and he's constantly awesome. Definitely worth the points, although somewhat redundant on this team because...
Bartz: Haha. Bartz is ridiculous. Can single-handedly destroy floors early on, and is a typical project character in that he gets much better as he goes on. Definitely worth the points.
Alakazam: Haha. Alakazam is-- yeah, okay, you get the point. Alakazam is Athos, but status-bait and without healing. If you can't afford Athos, take 'Zam.
Adray: Honestly, I didn't expect much from Adray. He's apparently slow, not amazingly good at any one thing, just seemed like he was too average overall except below-average in possibly the most relevant stat. As it goes, being slow was sometimes a really good thing on a (status) healer and he apparently had more tricks than I realised. Hm.
Moulder: Honestly? Complete non-entity past about Floor 3, where it was "Well, he heals." Once Bartz took Red Mage/Chemist, there was absolutely no reason for me to care about Moulder, since everyone else had healing anyway.
Team was, overall, pretty good, for all that I barely knew the characters. :P If I were to take it away from the 'Stache now, meaning dropping a point somewhere but adding a Sealstone, I'd probably look at cutting either Alakazam or Athos for some more physical smaaaash (Athos for Ephraim, maybe) and probably throw Life on Moulder so that I actually have some revival early on.
Edit:
Alrighty, so now that that's done with, time to look at my next team plan!
Neph, did you consider the idea of moving Body Charge around? The idea I had was to switch it between Ness/Eiko, so I'd assume it's on Ness as far as the points go, since he's the more expensive of the two.
On that note, Body Charge Ness would have disgusting durability, and is pretty much the entire reason I wanted to make this team. :)
Past that, I'm considering looking at an all-Pokemon team, although I'm curious what Sealstone bonus they'd get... ;)
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I would say if you give your team enough extra points that it can go onto Ness then you can move it around.
I should also say I'm probably going to change Body Charge in some way before the next time someone gets in... I want to see how it works as it is now.
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d'awwwww
Ruins my insane durability plans with Ness, I assume. :(
(He'd still be status-bait! It's not like I was gonna stick him with a bunch of status healers, honest!)
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It will still be very similar in its effects.
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Heh, was looking at the Synergy bonus stuff and curious if there's any series-inclusive Synergy bonuses that could be allowed?
Like... I was thinking of a Wild Arms mains team: Rudy, Virginia, and Jude are already available, but could I get DL-legal Ashley and Clarissa to round that team out? (WA5 doesn't exist, too much skillset headache, also Dean is at best a Virginia clone with full Medium choice, a Jude clone with one Medium, or a sub-DQ1Hero warm body at worst.)
Virginia (4)
Jude (1.5)
Rudy (1.5)
Ashley (probably a 1.5 since he's essentially Rudy?)
Clarissa (whatever's left of my points... 3.5? That seems high, maybe I can get some Force Carrots/Healberries so that my Mystic-ers will be awesome?)
I guess it's basically a Virginia-reliant team with a good mix of speed/durability/damage/statusblockers. The addition of WA Mystic-able items would probably be necessary for this team to get past the earlier floors though... Otherwise, I have only one healer ;_;
I suppose a Clarissa-as-SacredSlayer could also work to help the healing situation.
Seems like a fun, though inferior idea. Any suggestions?
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Eeeeeeeeew Jude in the dungeon whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
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Jude is twinkable enough, though maybe not with that team. Obviously he's best buds with Tidus and a few other people who can boost his speed, but yeah, kind of a slow start waiting for Assault Buster and needs to steal Yulie's FP Advantage to really get mystic hype going. Also, since modern Firefly doesn't hose Defend, he's a passable enough Firefly choice - FF1 Knight is a more generally tanky and a safer choice, but Jude can Defend if he fears magic, and gets random cute tricks in exchange.
Clarissa is made of broke in the dungeon because of Encourage. She doesn't need Sacred Slayer, she just spams that constantly and makes your team triple-turn everything. Then when fighting any kind of solo boss she spams Rob Turn and trivializes them. I'm not sure there's any price that's fair for her, but I'd be willing to pay quite a lot for her - a 5.0 pick or thereabouts. That said, she's not at her finest in a team without healing, as you'd have to blitz everything, and Encourage spam only works if you have somebody ready with MT healing to top the team up as they outslug from turn advantage.
It might break the theme a little, but you can pretend that the real main character of WA1 was one of the talking ones and pick ACF Cecilia to get some healing? Alternatively, ask for Dean w/ a healing rune or whatever WA5 used for customization?
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Hmm... I didn't think Clarissa was -that- broken. Trivializing solo bosses isn't a Clarissa-only thing, and her main draw is the speed-boosting (which works really well with Jude, Snow!)
That said, switching Ashley for Lilka would probably be a decent solution to the lack of healing. And I kind of wanted to try Rudy in the Dungeon since I've never seen a team that uses him. He has Cover or something, right? That's got to be some kind of useful niche?
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A: Rob turn doesn't work on most bosses. B: Encourage is cool, but it just speeds up your turn and doesn't hit the entire party. Clarissa has use in the dungeon (Sacrifice!) but she does not feel even close to that overpowered.
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In the Dungeon, Encourage would probably be considered hitting the whole party, though. (Well, sans Clarissa of course.) I mean, it -does- hit six spaces, which is more than enough for a full Dungeon Team and location isn't generally considered outside of "melee" or "ranged". Not hitting Clarissa -is- a pretty big drawback though.
Well, I'll leave it to Neph's judgment, but I'll propose this team:
Virginia (4)
Lilka (2)
Rudy (1.5)
Jude (1.5)
Clarissa (3?)
And hope for Healberry/Forcecarrots as a Synergy bonus. ...and that's still a pretty weak team, but at least it has potential and speed!
I call it 'Team What Do You Mean Lilka's Not the Main Character?'
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Encourage doesn't increase speed, just reduces how long you need to wait until your next turn. Not as useful with Jude as you'd think (doesn't boost Assault Buster or anything).
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super: I was able to hit a good portion of my team with Encourage in general, and since that team has a lot of characters whose flavor is ranged / magic (Rudy & Ashley won't use their physical very often), I wouldn't have a problem with letting them clump together and get mass-Encourages. Hitting everyone with Encourage tends to at least as good as Jane's "everybody gets to go now" in a turn-based format, and potentially much better if speed breaks work out right. (Tal is correct though, I noted that Jude doesn't actually synergize with the proposed team that much.)
Re Rob Turn immunities in the DL, uh, yeah. I seem to recall it being quite random what bosses immuned it, what resisted it, and what didn't, so there's not much to say in the DL other than "works on some, not on others, good look figuring out which." Saying it blanket doesn't work vs. your average status-immune boss seems an overly harsh restriction, but would make Clarissa more sane in the Dungeon I'll grant.
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Encourage doesn't increase speed, just reduces how long you need to wait until your next turn. Not as useful with Jude as you'd think (doesn't boost Assault Buster or anything).
o_O
This makes me unhappy.
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You could always give Jude the Neo speed sealstone. After a few turns with that Assault Buster would be quite strong.
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No Sealstones if you're using a Synergy Bonus, though... ;_;
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Saying it blanket doesn't work vs. your average status-immune boss seems an overly harsh restriction, but would make Clarissa more sane in the Dungeon I'll grant.
Well, I think every boss that can be hit by Rob Turn has other status vulnerabilities in-game, so it's not that unreasonable.
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I would like to point out that Rudy is probably never getting protector off in the dungeon, ever.He doesn't get it until halfway through the game and to make matters worse it is a 75 FP force ability. It takes 3-4 turns to get using his physical, which is pretty meh for damage, and if he uses his arms it ends up taking around twice as long. Also I think we had a discussion on XF characters in the dungeon before and the general consensus was that Clarissa's potential ability to Rob Turn spam down the line of a group of enemy pc's was too good.
Also, while not relevant if you choose Lilka over Ashley, but I would argue he's way better then Rudy, while it takes him a while to get, Ashley does eventually get access to gratuitously overkill MT damage. If he ever gets to aftergame he basically becomes Ryu2 with repeated uses of Dragons. He is also not slow as molasses.
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I personally subject Rob Turn to Stop immunity in games that have that (FFs, etc.), since it seems a reasonable analog (causes you to not have turns, immuned by a majority of bosses but not as many as you'd expect).
(Also, for the record, significantly more bosses immune Rob Turn in XF than are vulnerable, including low-tier bosses like Magnus and Mathis, and the only bosses who could be considered plot-important who are vulnerable are Rupert and Weisheit.)
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I personally subject Rob Turn to Stop immunity in games that have that (FFs, etc.), since it seems a reasonable analog (causes you to not have turns, immuned by a majority of bosses but not as many as you'd expect).
(Also, for the record, significantly more bosses immune Rob Turn in XF than are vulnerable, including low-tier bosses like Magnus and Mathis, and the only bosses who could be considered plot-important who are vulnerable are Rupert and Weisheit.)
Make a dungeon team
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Alrighty, really wondering what kind of Synergy I could get with a Pokemon team. :P Assuming Body Charge is nerfed, so no Ness shenanigans, I'll most likely look at a Pokemon team - I'm thinking Gen5 abilities/movepools including one of each TM for Synergy Bonus?
Either way, probably looking at Onix/Ditto/Alakazam/Mew/something? Preferably something a little more physical-based for that last slot, although everything but Onix is special on the dungeon list, methinks. :x
Edit: Just checked with Smogonites, apparently Ditto's Dream World ability copies whoever's opposite him, so list Ditto first and he can copy whoever else is listed first?
Also, Magic Guard doesn't prevent OHKOs, so the entire team is still ID-susceptible without auto-Safeguard or Damp.
...wait. DAMP.
Any chance of me getting Dream World Swampert as the 5th? :P I totally need Damp in order to have any chance at all. :D
Edit again: Wait, I'm an idiot, it's not Damp, it's Sturdy. Hmm. Which.. Steelix might have?
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Alright, after much, much pestering...I will try to make a dungeon. Go easy on me, okay? (I am so going to kill MagicFanatic)
Bartz (4.0), Maya Amano (3.0), Hilda (2.0), Jessica (1.0), Time Mage (1.0)
Life Sealstone
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Here's my thoughts on my team and how it did. I'll start with individual evaluations and then the overall team analysis after that.
Deis2: Really good. She's expensive, but worth it. Great MT damage, accurate ID, and a devastatingly good buff all from fantastic speed. All of her stuff is acquired early and she makes a great earlygame crutch for a team who needs a good strong early member. The offense she brings with her magic and Attack Up makes her a strong choice for any blitzing team. Her resources are serviceable but not vast so I wouldn't recommend her for a stalling team, but she had more than enough given the design of my team.
Emily: She works really well with Deis2. The damage is fantastic and fast, but it needs a little push to boost it over the 2.5 kill point and Deis2 provides that. If the enemies are physically frail and vulnerable to ID than Emily and Deis2 take two of them out instantly which is really awesome. Attack Up on her wasn't used as much as I thought it would be mostly because she's faster than Deis2, but it was still nice against bosses.
Jerin: She was worth it when she was a 2.0 and she's still worth it as a 3. MT damage of 3 flavors, healing that is solid early and damn good late, and some buffs to top it off. Durability is surprisingly solid as well. I wish she got her good healing a little earlier and that her confuse was a bit more accurate, but she's always extremely helpful. Mirror probably saved a few matches and was a nice option once she got it.
Bowser: Was kind of disappointing. Terrorize was used much less that I thought it would be. If I had to use it, that meant that my team was probably already in trouble. I needed the damage for the MT swarm to be effective but someone like Lemina could have done it better.
Priest: Early healing and revival was what I needed her for and it was what she provided. I didn't need it as much as I thought I did because a lot of people have a lot of Deis2 respect early, but she was useful. Holy probably saved my ass on a couple of fights too.
Overall: Probably my favorite team that's been in the dungeon so far. Watching the team smash it's way through was very satisfying and in general it was easy to argue for. Looking back, I would probably swap out Bowser for Tia and drop the Speed? sealstone for the elemental resist nullifying sealstone. Maybe also swap out Priest for either Rena or Nina 3, but I'd have to think about that change.
Some final thoughts on general dungeon balance: Overall I think the dungeon is at a good place balance wise. The Justin/Feena Floor 2 could stand to be toned down a bit because as it is now, some of those PC combinations are pretty nasty for early on. As a result, most people end up choosing the other floor which I think is a bit better balanced for floor 2. I think it would be a good idea to cut out some of the opponents on the second to last fight on Floor 7b. My team was well suited for floor 7a, but I think most people would still chose that floor because that second to last fight in Floor 7b is just a huge slog, especially since it's followed up by a fight filled with fast IDers ready to pick off and survivors. Similarly, I think the FFX fight from floor 8 should be reduced to something like Yuna/Tidus/Lulu or Yuna/Tidus/Wakka/Auron. As it is right now, I think lots of fast status or ID is one of the only realistic ways to get past it. (Blitzing using an obtuse element or a burst move like Overdrive would also work but those are rare.) If you want to keep the fight as is, it would be nice to offer a second option for the floor. Aside from the couple of fights I mentioned, the balance for the dungeon is pretty good. Status especially is at a nice spot in that it's very useful to have but you can't rely on it exclusively and aside from that FFX fight it's not really required.
I have a plan set for my next team. It's kind of similar to this one, but it should be less reliant on elements and a bit more versatile overall.
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White Wizard, Final Fantasy 1 Dawn of Souls
Nash, Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete
Borya (Brey), Dragon Quest 4
Momo, Breath of Fire 3 (With Enemy Skills)
Angelo, Dragon Quest 8
Nall, Lunar Silver Star Story Complete
Durability is for weaklings anyway.
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Belated reply, but not sure if the FFX fight should be nerfed. Don't get me wrong, it's a horribly unfair fight, but I think Floor 8 is where the Dungeon should really start aggressively trying to kill you with the only way to survive being cheese of some kind. dude's team was great, but it was "fair" (and this is a compliment!). Floor 8 has to worry about broken things. For example, any team with Jessica is forced to blow a Magic Burst (but then it's just Yuna / Lulu); Djinn's team with the old Violent Burst Law blows either an Omnislash or, if evading-Limits hype is go, a Great Gospel and still wins; teams with old-Tidus that had Sonic Steel a la Shale's team cast an init. Slowga and clean up; teams with FF5 Bartz can give him Ninja speed where he does something unfair with Mix or Blue Magic to status everything; etc. The fight is of course nigh-unwinnable if too much of the FFX team gets a turn, but that just reflects how tough it is to find a balance for aftergame fights.
Also, something Neph mentioned in #NyarlieDungeon chat: adding RH characters? Switch is interesting in the DL, for all that it can potentially overwhelm the rest of a character's attributes.. Aht notably would be good with just Switch as her only move, as she enables characters like Millenia, Ryu2, or Strago to be suddenly fast on turn 1. Ideas:
Stocke:2.5
Pros: Tanky reviver! Probably survives a Switch, so can make slow characters mildly fast! Turn Cancel is fantastic for later fights if you can stall and build Mana Gague.
Cons: Healing is ST-only and not fantastic. Physical damage fades in the later floors, and his G-Fire is a commonly walled element at endgame.
Marco: 1.5
Pros: Trans-turn. Double turns for someone better than Marco! Healing, revival, and solid Defense / Magic buffs. On later floors, MT Sleep and his buffs go MT as well. Push Assault / Grapple give a positioning game.
Cons: MT healing starts out okay, but is pretty bad by endgame. Below average speed, not that durable.
Aht + Marco: 3.5? (Feels more like 4.0, but using 2 slots may merit a discount?)
Pros: See Marco. For Aht, traps are pretty great damage... once Marco takes his turn. She can switch in slow characters to get the drop on enemies. MT healing, an MT MDef buff, and an MT status resistance buff round out the skillset.
Cons: Aht will probably die if enemies are still alive after she switches. While Aht's MT healing holds up better than Marco's, it too fades by endgame.
Eruca doesn't work (she's terrible on Floors 1-4, and has availability issues for Floor 7, and her claim to above-average speed rests on the Shadowrun dress which makes her super-frail late, and she plain doesn't have early). Rosch is kinda boring, FF1 Knight is already in the Dungeon for PDef tanks and is probably better anyway. Gafka invokes way too much RH grid interp issues. Raynie works but is kinda bland and not that great for the Dungeon.
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Well, dead team is dead. Probably would've gone farther if I swapped out Lyn for the sake of better offensive variety but otherwise I don't regret the team choice. Tia in particular got some stupid stupid mileage out Body Charge and is definitely one of the best choices for it. Dunno if that says more about her or Body Charge though. Zalmo is pretty good support for the price, too.
New team idea so far is Deis2/Stocke/Crono/Marco/someone for the remaining 1.5. Using BC Tia again is sorely tempting but I'd rather not go down that route. Carlie/WW/BC Raja are also ideas there but basically I want a healer that can actually, y'know, heal since the RH people kinda have issues there.
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Body Charge Marco, baby.
EDIT: Although I'm not sure if you'd get any mileage out of Stocke there unless it's a marriage deal (can't get Stocke without Marco and vice-versa).
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Well, dead team is dead. Probably would've gone farther if I swapped out Lyn for the sake of better offensive variety but otherwise I don't regret the team choice. Tia in particular got some stupid stupid mileage out Body Charge and is definitely one of the best choices for it. Dunno if that says more about her or Body Charge though. Zalmo is pretty good support for the price, too.
New team idea so far is Deis2/Stocke/Crono/Marco/someone for the remaining 1.5. Using BC Tia again is sorely tempting but I'd rather not go down that route. Carlie/WW/BC Raja are also ideas there but basically I want a healer that can actually, y'know, heal since the RH people kinda have issues there.
I'd say go for BC Raja because Crono's resources are bad and Deis doesn't have enough to spam spells for very long. Raja would definately help Crono out and let Deis spam Bolt X's while Marco gives her more turns.
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Well, admittedly, if anything could be culled from that and replaced it's probably Stocke and his attempts at playing the everyman. So let's say I do that and decide on BC Raja and his now having things resembling speed and durability because by god I brought Marco here for Trans-turn and that is what he will do and not pretending he's actually much good at refilling the HP of the still-living. The issue is that with my relatively limited knowledge base I'm not really sure where to go from there.
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Well, admittedly, if anything could be culled from that and replaced it's probably Stocke and his attempts at playing the everyman. So let's say I do that and decide on BC Raja and his now having things resembling speed and durability because by god I brought Marco here for Trans-turn and that is what he will do and not pretending he's actually much good at refilling the HP of the still-living. The issue is that with my relatively limited knowledge base I'm not really sure where to go from there.
Well you have a bunch of options if you want to replace Stocke. 2.5 is a pretty versatile pick. In particular, Millenia could work well since you've got Raja with Ataraxia, but that's a bit of a judgement call since Grandia 2 is another game which splits special skills and magic. She's got a potent skillset and with a lot of Marco turns she can get pretty ridiculous but if Ataraxia doesn't heal SP then she'll probably run out too fast. Tidus and Marco can lead to some pretty ridiculous turn advantage shenanigans but Tidus doesn't add a whole lot besides the speed game. Depending on whether people give Scarecrow 4 turns from Trans Turn that can also get pretty insane, but he's a bit difficult to work with otherwise. Those are probably the most extreme options but there are a ton of 2.5s who are really versatile like Maxim, Jack, Guv, Feena, DQ4 Hero and Alex who would all appreciate MP healing and getting more turns. Anybody with a good physical attack will really like Deis 2. Basically any above average physical becomes a OHKO.
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So have been debating switching up my current planned team to something rather different.
Deis1(3.5) + Emma(1.5)(Speed?) + Sharanda(2) + (Eiko(1.5) + Sasarai(2.5))?
Basic goal of the team will basically be magical blitz, Emma gets Magic Zone by floor 4 which boots all magic damage by 50%, after which the rest of the team of above average mages just kind of slaughter things. Basically unsure on the last two slots to fill in, currently have Eiko/Sasarai, the first of which is kind of just there and the latter I'm not really overly familiar with so I thought it would be good to find out if people feel like they would fit in or not.
Edit: Considering Deis1(3.5) + Emma(1.5)(Speed?) + Sharanda(2) + (Eiko(1.5) + RedXIII(2.5)) now.
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Alright, pondered this in chat, and.. since I'd like to stick to mostly characters I know, I'll be taking Yuri2 over Shania, so considering:
Ephraim (2.5)
Alakazam (2.5)
Tear (1.0)
Eiko (1.5)
Yuri2 (3.5)
No idea on a Sealstone yet. Basic idea of the team is that Eph/Zam sweep the first 3-4 floors, and just as they stop clearing things single-handedly, Yuri steps in to start cleaning up. Tear/Eiko are there are effective healers, with Eiko also providing some nice backup damage on the magic side of things. (I figure Alakazam is much more likely to die than Ephraim.)
Sealstone.. Like I said, I have no idea. I'm considering Neo Speed and Vantage, on the grounds that I have a character who can counterattack and minimal ways of boosting speed so they seem viable. Leaning Vantage, since Eiko can eventually start Hasting.
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Not officially submitting this as a team, but I'd like to hear some thoughts on how this team might do.
Orlandu (4.0)
Alys (3.0)
Sasarai (2.5) Life sealstone
Yukari (1.0)
Ditto (.5)
The team idea originated when I was trying to come up with a team centered around Orlandu. I was considering using him with Silent Lake and Sasarai immediately jumped out as someone who can do that and provide more to the team. Alys also functions well under Silent lake and is fast enough to drop a Saner before Silent Lake resolves making the team difficult to kill. Yukari is somebody who really hasn't been used that often which is a shame. The lowish revival is a concern but hopefully Ditto will alleviate that somewhat since he has to be killed so that the opponent isn't faced with having to take out 2 Orlandus.
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I'd be concerned about the lack of revival there with Silent Lake, personally. My instant go-to for SL teams is always Chemist, since you can easily heal/revive through it. That said, doing that would mean dropping Alys, although it would also mean you could improve Yukari, I guess - the main issue with Persona characters is and always will be the opportunity for extra turns, so they tend to go with specialised teams or not at all. (Typically enough, this strikes me as a perfect team for a Persona character... Just not Yukari. Maybe Chie or Yosuke. Naoto -maybe-, since she should be faster than Sasarai for the most part.)
I guess I like the team concept, but the lack of revival is way too great an issue. If Orlandu falls, this team just kinda collapses, and that's never a good position to be in.
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I'd be concerned about the lack of revival there with Silent Lake, personally. My instant go-to for SL teams is always Chemist, since you can easily heal/revive through it. That said, doing that would mean dropping Alys, although it would also mean you could improve Yukari, I guess - the main issue with Persona characters is and always will be the opportunity for extra turns, so they tend to go with specialised teams or not at all. (Typically enough, this strikes me as a perfect team for a Persona character... Just not Yukari. Maybe Chie or Yosuke. Naoto -maybe-, since she should be faster than Sasarai for the most part.)
I guess I like the team concept, but the lack of revival is way too great an issue. If Orlandu falls, this team just kinda collapses, and that's never a good position to be in.
I think you might be underestimating Saner a bit. Under Silent Lake and Saner Orlandu is almost impossible to kill since it gives the team really really high evasion and he's already got some good defensive options from FFT equips. Any damage he does take is just going to be wiped away whenever he gets a turn. Lack of revival is my main concern but I don't think Chemist will really help since I'd have to give up Alys and Saner's defensive buffs. Ditto does get 5 shots of Mother Ocean if he transforms into Sasarai so that helps.
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Yeah, the strategy is definitely pretty solid at least until the later floors, when more ITE is floating around. Personally though I wouldn't see Ditto having a minimum of 5 L4 charges. I'm more inclined to see him as having like 1/3 of normal charges (But...ones that reset each battle). So I think things will work well until then, and then you hope Orlandu smash comes up. SL of course isn't fast however, you so are generally going to be open to a turn of magic barring...well, MP busting (although that's not quite as full before Excalibur) or statusing.
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I just beat Suikoden 1 so I've had a lot of ideas based on the Suikoden 1 options floating around in my head for a while. Most recent is this.
Crowley with Body Charge (3.0)
Geno (3.0)
Crono (2.0)
Jack (2.5)
Party Slot Nall (.5)
Idea is to abuse Nall's revival at the end of the battle with Crowley's Shining Wind. Body Charge makes Crowley really fast but Geno is just a hair faster which lets him drop a Geno Boost boosting Crowley's damage to pretty disgusting levels. Crono and Jack bring even more speed and damage to the table as well as some things like ID and emergency revival. Thoughts?
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Keep in mind that Crono's Life spell is fairly late. I wanna say... F4 or F5ish? Anyway, not the point.
Body Charge Crowley will carry you through some floors, but earlygame MP charges are a bit worrying - I don't think Shining Wind (like most of your strategy necessitates) pops up until at least F3 if not later, and even then, MT stuff is going to be really limited early on. That said...
Your team is fast enough to blitz almost anything that comes along, I seriously doubt I need to set out any actual worries, other than the fact that your healing is all late (except for Crowley's Healing Wind, and the problem with that is its severely limited), ST when you get it, but generally serves multiple uses. The entire team is mostly status bait, so you're going to have to ask yourself if you're fast enough to deal with those that throw status before it becomes a problem. I'd say yes, but it depends on where in the dungeon.
I can see it going far.
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Crowley joins really late and at a high level so I don't think charges will be that big of a problem. I want to say that he already starts with 2 or 3 level 4 charges.
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Personally I would definitely see Crowley levelling up like any other character, so yeah, he'd have to wait until floor 3-4 for Shining Wind. I honestly don't see a strong argument otherwise.
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Personally I would definitely see Crowley levelling up like any other character, so yeah, he'd have to wait until floor 3-4 for Shining Wind. I honestly don't see a strong argument otherwise.
I guess the main argument is consistency since there are a late joiners who most people take as being compared to when they join early on. Either way it's not a tremendous problem. He's essentially trading Shining Wind for even more powerful damage early on. The Shredding is probably going to be brushing up against OHKO damage with the boost from Body Charge.
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dude: It looks like a cool team at least. Nice blitz potential certainly, always amused when Nall gets used well.
Re Crowley: Suikoden is a little weird in the Dungeon. For other games, I would unambiguously say that characters start with the set they have when the join up, BUT have the MP they would have at the appropriate level. So Strago has an uber Aqua Rake on Floor 1 and Floor 2 but only enough MP to cast it once or twice. Unfortunately that doesn't work for Suikoden with everyone theoretically knows every spell on their rune at lvl. 1 but MP to cast it is limited, so yeah, I'd not let Crowley start out with the MP/charges to cast the uber stuff on early floors.
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But that's pretty silly in a game like Suikoden where you can extrapolate characters to lower levels so easily. Yes, they lose skills, but so what? I don't consider "has Shining Wind" to be a defining trait of Crowley, but rather, "has Cyclone Rune". If you somehow managed to keep your levels down (might be possible with some weird party shuffling and killing Tir off in boss fights) then you could even recruit Crowley before he gets a L4 and see this for yourself, but you hardly have to since all Suikoden characters gain spell charges in an utterly predictable way based on their mag growth.
Now, as dude observes, he gets lots of shots of The Shredding really fast and those hurt insanely badly for the early floors. So he's still pretty good of course. Just as a matter of principle I don't see how you can allow late-joining Suikoden characters their entire skillset, because they just don't have the MP for it. (Your comment on Strago applies pretty well here.) How on earth would you scale the damage, anyway?
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In a case of late joining characters I'd compare them to characters when they joined. So using Crowley as an example. He joins at floor 5ish so he'd compare to characters from when you acquire him in game. The end result being that he pretty much stays the same until floor 5 or six when he finally starts to pick up those last few levels and rune charges.
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I thought joining generally as they start in game and compared to other PC stats at that time was pretty standard. Generally the simplest solution, which is good for dungeon.
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Dark Holy Elf: I'm not sure you understood what I was saying. If not obvious, yes, I agree that F1 Crowley shouldn't be able to cast Shining Wind. I was merely making the point that if Konami had made a character who had an L4 charge at lvl. 1, and they were equipped with a Cyclone Rune, they *would* be able to cast Shining Wind, since you can cast all the spells on a rune MP permitting.
I also have no problem with dude & Dhyer's interps and use it myself sometimes if it's not obvious how a character would perform in a hypothetical low-level situation, or the result is obviously silly.
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Given that my team's pretty clearly not making it through, I feel it's safe to do a team analysis at this rate.
Rika: More than earns her cost. Saner and Elim aside, -Deban- of all things grabbed a win against Emo and Melfice. Life is a double-edged sword with her, since it does cut down her healing a bit, but gives her access to revival in exchange. Flat-out amazing in a team setting, proving that you don't need to be a Project Character to make it into the 4.0 rank. Antiphysical to a degree that can only be considered stupid, and in a team-friendly manner at that.
Celes: Status, status, and more status. By the end of the dungeon she was packing just about every non-Charm FF6 status one could throw out, and it proved rather effective. X-Zone was there as well, which is just...ow. But the point is that she's effective for how you build her, though it's admittedly very tempting to take her down the route of statuswhore.
Lucian+Shiho: Hilariously, these two were my only real good damage option for most of the run. Might Reinforce Lucian is a thing to behold, and when you can ID or status most of the others beforehand, that ST doesn't really look so bad anymore. A bit of a niche pick, probably more comparable to a Nei that has solid healing options in addition to the stupid physical buff, but really, Might Reinforce is the big reason you take her. Lucian being a competent physical fighter before Reinforce just adds to it.
Rand: Not gonna lie here, he was filler that had more revival. Could beat more people down once Reinforce kicked in, but the big thing is that he's another body and he had Revive. His below-average speed kind of kept him as an extra for the most part.
So overall? Team well outperformed my expectations. Celes helped deal with the earlygame more than well enough, with Imp in particular ripping everything and its mom a new one. Once the team hit F4, it started to steamroll enemies all the way through to the end of F6--where of all things, DEBAN HYPE saves the day.
and then I panic over F7 selection and leave the choice to Hatbot. GJ.
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Press Turn Sealstone:
Edgar (3.0)
Popoi (2.5)
Rand (0.5)
Raja (1.0)
Blue (4.0)
Edgar/Blue is a ridiculous combination as is, if only because Edgar sweeps earlier floors while Blue sweeps later ones. Popoi's range of elements alongside Edgar's Debilitator means Edgar doesn't just disappear after a few floors. Rand/Raja are cheap, effective healers, and Blue is Blue. I originally wanted to build a Press Turn Sealstone team, but Amarant is way too expensive for what he offers, so I ended up with only Edgar on that front. I tried picking up good elemental options, but most ended up way too frail/slow and I had pretty much no way of beating MT fights. (I still don't, but not the point.) I also died after I got to, like, Floor 6, because Edgar was doing nothing and Purim/Popoi weren't enough to carry the team, not to mention the speeeeeeed. So, yeah, Blue. Not expecting this to ever work, but what the hell, let's try it.
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Press Turn Sealstone:
Edgar (3.0)
Popoi (2.5)
Rand (0.5)
Raja (1.0)
Blue (4.0)
Edgar/Blue is a ridiculous combination as is, if only because Edgar sweeps earlier floors while Blue sweeps later ones. Popoi's range of elements alongside Edgar's Debilitator means Edgar doesn't just disappear after a few floors. Rand/Raja are cheap, effective healers, and Blue is Blue. I originally wanted to build a Press Turn Sealstone team, but Amarant is way too expensive for what he offers, so I ended up with only Edgar on that front. I tried picking up good elemental options, but most ended up way too frail/slow and I had pretty much no way of beating MT fights. (I still don't, but not the point.) I also died after I got to, like, Floor 6, because Edgar was doing nothing and Purim/Popoi weren't enough to carry the team, not to mention the speeeeeeed. So, yeah, Blue. Not expecting this to ever work, but what the hell, let's try it.
I think you might want to change your team up a bit, because as of now the team looks really really bad early on. In particular, everyone's speed falls between average and slug like and they don't have the durability to withstand repeated assaults from faster opponents. Popoi is also bad early on and your team doesn't really have any way to protect Raja especially since he actually has a weakness (fire) which opponents can use to take advantage of the press turn sealstone. Blue and Edgar are both clever choices for the sealstone due to Debilitator and Saga element wonkiness but Debilitator isn't for a few floors and again your teams speed and durability are both too bad for me to see them getting past floor 2 or three.
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In all honesty? I'm pretty much relying on Edgar to get me through the first couple of floors. That said, Raja having a weakness is a very big problem. That said, is there anyone reliable to replace him with? :/ Tear, maybe?
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In all honesty? I'm pretty much relying on Edgar to get me through the first couple of floors. That said, Raja having a weakness is a very big problem. That said, is there anyone reliable to replace him with? :/ Tear, maybe?
Edgar is good early on, but he doesn't have the speed to carry a team by himself and the point where Blue and Popoi really come into their own is after Edgar starts to decline. As it stands now I think G1 Feena might actually beat your team by herself on floor 2 depending on interpretation.
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Fun fact: End of the World, despite requiring Fire Magic to learn and being a gigantic shower of exploding fireballs, is apparently non-elemental according to Dhyerwolf in some ancient match where this mattered awhile back.
Feena still gets a free GT Fire Whip that will hit Raja + somebody else if she wants the press turn, of course.
I approve of somebody doing a Press Turn team - in retrospect my team would actually not be so bad at such a thing, since Feena and Red blitz really well with elemental variety whenever there's a weakness to exploit, but agree that Edgar should be included strictly for style points if nothing else. I would say that including anybody who has an elemental weakness themselves is chancy unless they have hax elemental choice themselves (Yuri2, who can also modify his weakness once he gets a turn) or already have the Press Turn disadvantage baked into their price (Yukari, Yukiko, etc.) since Press Turns don't stack. So... yeah, can Raja, definitely.
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The problematic thematically without someone like Edgar is that elemental weaknesses? There's Shana/Miranda that I can easily think, and uh...Worker 8? Of course, Edgar is slow, and therefore that's not really a strategy either. That's not an also seal stone to get any mileage out of.
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Mm, that was the problem. I wanted to make a Press Turn team, but options to grant weaknesses for a decent price are... Edgar or Amarant. More than enough ways to abuse them, but nothing to actually get to that stage to begin with.
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Mm, that was the problem. I wanted to make a Press Turn team, but options to grant weaknesses for a decent price are... Edgar or Amarant. More than enough ways to abuse them, but nothing to actually get to that stage to begin with.
Edgar and Popoi is a neat combo since I think Popoi can hit every weakness Edgar can inflict except for holy and poison which Edgar himself can handle but it takes a while for it to become really effective. There are a couple others who can inflict weaknesses. Virginia can but that's later than Edgar's even but it does give you a bit more control over which element you make the enemy weak against. Riddle from Chrono Cross can do it and she's pretty cheap but she has a weakness herself (granted it's a rare one and she can change her element with the same Turn element she's using against the enemies.)
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On the Amarant note, I proposed dropping his price before - he's a 2.5 but that seems way overcosted, and nobody's ever used him. He can definitely go to 2.0, maybe even 1.5... not sure if he has a place anyway since Edgar is a stronger pick in general, but might make it more interesting.
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I will be doing some major point renovation over this weekend.
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Keep in mind that for a PT team, you'd have to be very careful about speed. Edgar's TERRIBLE for this specifically due to his poor speed and inability to do damage to the status-immune aside from inflict weakness and/or use Drill.
And at this rate, you'd need either a fast weakness-granter or an extremely fast person (ATB/CTB Fast, not TB Fast; we're talking the ability to 3-2 average at the least) who can hit these weaknesses. And to my knowledge, there aren't any abilities that grant weakness to multiple targets.
In a setting where you have to be able to disable several targets quickly.
Preferably before they act.
Might want to consider your strategy a bit more closely is all I'm suggesting.
sidenote: Yay point renovation!
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Jane might work rather well with Edgar, on that note.
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Edgar's ability to grant weaknesses is spotty since he can't pick the element, and he is dead weight past floor 4 anyway. He goes from MVP to LVP literally at that point.
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fun teams > efficient teams
Yoshiken doin' it rite.
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Okay, trying out a new person or two and potential evil:
Dorothy (3.5)
Body Charged Porom and Palom (3)
Terra (2.5)
Crono (2)
This is of course assuming that Terra does get a downgrade. Few people that I'm tempted to swap in, but most of them are heavily used already. Still thinking it over, but might as well put this in now and tweak later if need be.
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Playing Wild ARMS, also noticing that we need MOAR TEAMS
Cecilia (4.0)
Jack
Rudy
Jane
Emma
VBL Sealstone, of course. Unless of course it's too many points, then maybe just the Synergy bonus if Neph's cool with it.
I just want to use Emma because Blue Mages are awesome.
Hmm.. Alternate team idea? Blue Mage team!
Cloud (w/ materia, like E.Skill!)
Momo (w/ Enemy Skills)
Emma
Strago
Ditto!
(Not even looking at point costs, just posting from my phone on a whim)
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Okay, SCIENCE time.
White Rose (2.0)
Billy Lee Black (2.5)
Zerase (3.0) (Resourceless Sealstone)
Alys (3.0)
FFT Priest (0.5)
Just experimenting to see if Zerase translates to a setting and taking an opportunity to spam Billy a bit too. Nothing very synergic, but some people that don't see enough use anymore and a boring staple.
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Oh man is that team going to *explode* when you hit the wrong fight. It should be fun until that point though.
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It's pretty much par for the course with my teams anyway. <_< I'm in mostly for the "fun until the point of boom".
EDIT: Also, if the question of whether Saner stacks with Goddess Call ever becomes relevant, I'll laugh.
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For those of you who scale Crowley back to early game levels, how many Rune charges would you say he has on floor 1?
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According to http://suikosource.com/games/gs1/guides/statgrowth.php he has 14 MAG to start with and gains 4-5 points every level until 20. I want to say levels in Suikoden 1 came pretty fast, so I'd ballpark level 10 being Floor 1, so... 60ish magic... 61 MGC - 4/2/0/0
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Deis2 (4.0)
Lucian/Shiho (3.0)
Terra (2.5)
Marco (1.5) (NeoSpeed)
Trans-turn hype go or something
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Since Emma got knocked down a half point:
Deis1(3.5) + Emma(1.0)(Speed?) + Sharanda(2.0) + Yosuke(2.0) + Red XIII(2.5)
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Man, where's the healing?
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Red and Sharanda cover that with Materia and Items (And uh...I guess Yosuke and Emma have something in a pinch).
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Red only has ST healing as an aside; the only MT he has is Fire. Not sure what Sharanda has, but then again some cases demand you be able to simply blitz anyway...
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Actually Red has no healing, just revival and status curing. It's Fire / All / Ice / Lightning / Revive / Heal that's his materia set.
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Huh. Thought it was Restore.
...that's even worse.
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I don't remember if Sharanda has access to any healing/revive/buff items either or if it's just the attack items of the spell/status types. Even if she does have/get access to all items there is limit there to the amount she can carry/use due to LoD's stock/inventory system. Also it's mainly 50% ST w/th Healing Potions early and the better MT storeboughts don't become available until ... I want to say disc 3?~
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Sharanda and red can both revive, Yosuke can help Sharanda with healing some on the early floors, Emma also technically gets revival and full healing at some point! Honestly though, if the team does make it to floor 4, none of this will matter anyways because Emma will probably be turning every fight into Rocket Tagtm with Magic Zone in hopes the other four will be able to cleanup with a decently speedy mt magic blitz.
Yeah, I think it's probably pretty obvious I am banking on Deis carrying the team hard for the earlier floors :-(.
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Problem is where's the actually -good- healing? LoD healing being percentage-based is a huge problem in the dungeon, and the items are very limited in storage. Not to mention Emma's healing and revival are trashy and expensive and you have -no- MT healing worth anything for a long time and no sustainable MT healing at all. Yosuke would be a poor choice even if he had full healing (by floor 4, Diarama isn't really great, let alone any later). And I won't even start talking about how bad of an idea relying on Poromtastic pdur healers on the dungeon is.
That team's lucky if it makes it past floor 1, let alone floor 4.
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thinking this idea over - applying moba thinking to the dungeon because i hate myself:
Raquel (body change) (4.5)
Nina1 (3)
Geno (3)
Nall (0.5)
basically the idea is that raquel with body change is the "hard carry" she gets geno boosts and nina's spells thrown at her and just facefucks everything by herself while screaming about flashing blades and shit. nall insures the support bitches will always be alive to cast a buff/heal at the start of every fight
i liek raquel cuz in addition to DAT DAMAGE she has great statusblockers and a draining move which scales up as her damage gets boosted, both excellent perks for a strat like this
other ideas for a 3 point bruiser:
emily (raw damage can't be beat)
ness (built like a brick shithouse with full healing, great ID, but not much damage and hates status)
zerase (good mt damage unlike the rest of these guys, but resource issues)
ted (idk i hear he's good but i don't know what s4 characters actually do)
ryu1 (status immunity that's easily accessed, solid damage that can't be walled, but wastes his first turn)
i could also use a weaker bruiser from the 2-2.5 range as my body changer (someone like kurando maybe) and upgrade one of my supports to rikku.
thoughts?
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Really interesting idea, although running a three person team will make things difficult. Whenever Raquel runs into trouble, your team will generally faceplant (Geno can at least help in some situations there though). Worries are: Evasion, Defense for most of the game, just lots of enemies in general, and Raquel is still slow even with Body Charge. That status protection might be a bit late too, but some of the bit example I can think of where it will matter (Floor 4), evasion helps.
Other choices:
Emily: Doesn't get much from BC, really. Her stats are already really strong such that adding a bit more doesn't help much (And now she'll be before Geno, losing some of the synergy)
Zerase: Very good choice. Speed now hits the sweet spot, physical durability is now 1.2 PC HP, damage gets a nice extra kick. The MT might be kind of sparse though, and that means yeah, ST damage may run out.
Ness: His damage is generally average, so not even good as a bruiser.
Running a 4 person team is difficult, so I would be quite interested in seeing some a 3 man team does.
And Deis should hopefully mean that Floor 1 shouldn't be a problem for Glen. Later ones though...
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Nope, screw it. Body Charge is definitely a more fun approach than Press Turn.
Body Charge Team go~~~
Ephraim (Body Charge) [4.0]
Gilder [1.5]
Jessica [1.0]
Alicia [2.0]
Eiko [1.5]
(Nall [1.0])
Similar approach to Monkey, and one that I wanted to try a while back with Fogel/Ness instead, but I couldn't pass up having Alicia and Gilder on the (status) healing side of things, and Eiko was about the only I was willing to drop down here, and couldn't find any suitable replacements on the lower values.
I also toyed around with running Eph as Seifer instead, which gives me an 2.5 points to play around with, but that pretty much resulted in changing Eiko to one of Aeonless Yuna/Toadstool and then still having 1.0 to put somewhere. I'm pretty content with this as it is, I think.
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Other choices:
Emily: Doesn't get much from BC, really. Her stats are already really strong such that adding a bit more doesn't help much (And now she'll be before Geno, losing some of the synergy)
Zerase: Very good choice. Speed now hits the sweet spot, physical durability is now 1.2 PC HP, damage gets a nice extra kick. The MT might be kind of sparse though, and that means yeah, ST damage may run out.
Ness: His damage is generally average, so not even good as a bruiser.
Emily would be an interesting pick for Body Charge. It puts her damage up to OHKO level and makes her completely ridiculous speedwise, something like doubles average from the get go. Otherwise agreeing with Dhyer, if your going to choose a Body Charge character you want them to be someone who is above average speed after the boost. Although, Nina does have that Initiative speed buff that helps a little. I would worry about Zerase running out of spell charges early and I don't think Ness and Ryu1 pack enough of an offensive punch to be the centerpiece of a Body charge team.
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Ness's main draw is that he never dies to straight damage, and has a few debilitating statuses. He's also only slightly below-average speed (and in the dungeon, he's actually above-average until you get Poo), and PSI Flash can be used as a gambit to try to argue out of bad situations. Otherwise, PSI Rockin is actually fairly damaging, and MT to boot.
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Ness' speed is pretty averagish before Poo (he ends almost average in game becuase of that large last second level spike). Maybe his damage is better earlier though.
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I don't know, early on he's competing with Paula when she's at her best for damage.
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I don't know, early on he's competing with Paula when she's at her best for damage.
The reason that competition exists is because Paula's damage is cheaper, but ST (or row-targetting). They float about the same damage level for a while, honestly. Ness also gets what amounts to ST full healing whenever the newest level pops up. Paralysis and Hypnosis Alpha are both early, at that.
Raw numbers? Yeah, Paula's damage is better. When you factor in how elemental resistance is handled, however...
Ness's PSI Rockin' is non-elemental, so it's not affected at all. Paula's PSI Fire and Freeze ARE elemental, and as such... Have great base power, but run HARD into resistance. For example?
PSI Rockin Alpha deals 50 damage on base to, say... A Mighty Bear. This isn't reduced. Paula casts Freeze Alpha, which deals a rather astounding 180 damage on base, but... The Mighty Bear is only "weak" to Freeze, so its damage gets cut to 75% (135). Also keep in mind that Ness keeps a rather handy level advantage above everyone else for quite some time, inflating his damage.
Rockin also destroys shields, so it has an argument for acting as Dispel against Shell or Reflect.
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I think Monkey's team is hilarious. Re other suggestions... the thing to remember with Raquel is that she has solid draining that becomes a guaranteed full heal off Body Charge. Toss in Geno Boost and Raquel literally solos enemy teams that can't emit a ton of magic damage a turn. Draining is better than Ness healing - Ness gets heallocked by merely damage equivalent to half his HP, while Raquel's draining means she pretty much needs to be KOed before she takes another turn.
Unfortunately, it's pretty much a guaranteed loss on the current Floor 5 options, aka the big gimmick floors, no matter what enemies are on them. Turnheal is "hope Nina solos w/ Geno reviving her" and Ceaseheal presumably turns off Nall, so they're both kind of non-starters. I'd talk to Neph and be sure there's some kind of alternate F5 ready since your team is pretty neat. Also, Raquel's status protection is Floor 6, and even after that Bad Breath type attacks from, say, Cloud of Darkness can tie her up with endless status. But whatever, it's a funny team at least, so I say go for it. Although... if Yuna gets dropped to 3.0, she might be a better pick than Nina. Not initiative, but close enough, and she's a lot harder to gank than Nina.
Re Glen's team: I don't know Yosuke that well, but don't forget that Red + a healer (Yosuke in this case) + Nall is still a pretty strong combination except against a storm of MT damage, and even that will tend to at least give Red a turn. Yosuke can also help with the Magic Zone blitz - I believe he was picked as an upgrade over Eiko who could be fast + do damage + emergency healing / support. That said... another option is to switch Deis/Bleu to Zerase, then upgrade Yosuke straight into Garnet. Garnet is above average speed, can also help with the blitz with her summons, has excellent MT healing, and gets random status options + elemental resist hax. Zerase has way more resource problems than Deis and I'm still a bit skeptical, but she was getting hyped by Jo'ou and the like earlier, so might be worth a shot. Also, not sure I see too much Sharanda items antihype... you can carry 32 items IIRC. It's reasonable to say that 10 of these are healing items. That should be enough to get through floors just fine - if things become a stall, something has gone horribly wrong anyway for Glen's team. Pretty sure that MT healing is among the item options.
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I think I really need a haster for this team. A reliable one, who will rarely or never die before getting a turn.
Options are Citan and Rikku.
Citan is cheaper and can do damage, but Rikku has some awesome healing (including a full MP restoration mix at floor 1) and non-haste buffs. Super mighty guard is soooo tempting, and so is hazardous shell for fucking bullshit like the persona 4 team which raped me last time around. Citan has half healing, so self-sustain on the body changer becomes more important. Is it worth it to take a weaker fighter for what Rikku brings, though? Hrm
Raquel / Emily / Ness / Ryu1 (body change) (4.5)
Citan (3)
Geno (3)
Nall
Kurando / KOS-MOS / Zemeckus / Claude / Chie (body change) (3)
Rikku (4)
Geno (3)
Nall
which looks better?
(i'm pretty confident the raquel team could beat ceaseheal, fwiw. None of those guys can really touch raquel, even the boss. Like, hasted citan can effectively heal raquel even with 5% healing, so they have to go for the supports instead, and even then raquel just tramples Berle in a duel. He FEARS moonlight/intrude, you know. It's even easier with nina1 or rikku cuz they can status people then sit there healing for like 5 turns)
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Citan's not a good haster, in all reality. Not for the fact that his haste spell is bad, or not MTable, or anything of the sort, no. He's even got solid MTable buffs of varied sorts, on top of having good durability, amazing speed, and second-gamebest offense behind Yamikei's cheezemult.
...just that Senkei, the Haste spell in question, isn't gained until F6 at the earliest. You're not getting the benefits of that until that late.
So really, Rikku unless you can find someone else to hastecheeze with.
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Alys does a lot of the same stuff as Geno (buffing, accurate ID) and I think she gets Saner to help out with speed, so you could use her instead of Geno and keep Nina. She lacks the damage and her buffing isn't as good as Geno, but I think she helps with Raquel/Emily SMASH a bit better.
I don't know, early on he's competing with Paula when she's at her best for damage.
The reason that competition exists is because Paula's damage is cheaper, but ST (or row-targetting). They float about the same damage level for a while, honestly. Ness also gets what amounts to ST full healing whenever the newest level pops up. Paralysis and Hypnosis Alpha are both early, at that.
Raw numbers? Yeah, Paula's damage is better. When you factor in how elemental resistance is handled, however...
Ness's PSI Rockin' is non-elemental, so it's not affected at all. Paula's PSI Fire and Freeze ARE elemental, and as such... Have great base power, but run HARD into resistance. For example?
PSI Rockin Alpha deals 50 damage on base to, say... A Mighty Bear. This isn't reduced. Paula casts Freeze Alpha, which deals a rather astounding 180 damage on base, but... The Mighty Bear is only "weak" to Freeze, so its damage gets cut to 75% (135). Also keep in mind that Ness keeps a rather handy level advantage above everyone else for quite some time, inflating his damage.
Rockin also destroys shields, so it has an argument for acting as Dispel against Shell or Reflect.
I know Paula's spells get reduced, but with the numbers you posted, Freeze Alpha is still notably better damage than Ness's options at that time. The gap between the two is pretty large at midgame because Paula will usually have a PSI Freeze a level above Ness's best PSI Rocking. She gets them really fast.
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I think I really need a haster for this team. A reliable one, who will rarely or never die before getting a turn.
Options are Citan and Rikku.
Citan is cheaper and can do damage, but Rikku has some awesome healing (including a full MP restoration mix at floor 1) and non-haste buffs. Super mighty guard is soooo tempting, and so is hazardous shell for fucking bullshit like the persona 4 team which raped me last time around. Citan has half healing, so self-sustain on the body changer becomes more important. Is it worth it to take a weaker fighter for what Rikku brings, though? Hrm
Raquel / Emily / Ness / Ryu1 (body change) (4.5)
Citan (3)
Geno (3)
Nall
Kurando / KOS-MOS / Zemeckus / Claude / Chie (body change) (3)
Rikku (4)
Geno (3)
Nall
which looks better?
(i'm pretty confident the raquel team could beat ceaseheal, fwiw. None of those guys can really touch raquel, even the boss. Like, hasted citan can effectively heal raquel even with 5% healing, so they have to go for the supports instead, and even then raquel just tramples Berle in a duel. He FEARS moonlight/intrude, you know. It's even easier with nina1 or rikku cuz they can status people then sit there healing for like 5 turns)
One point that's interesting there is that KOS-MOS is quite likely a really cool choice for Body Charge (I'm not sure I'd consider spending 4.5 on a single PC -ever-). She now always 2HKOs off both durabilities, gets the ability to do so with MT at floor 4-5, dodges a lot, is really hard to kill through concrete damage and is actually fast. The debuffs are also cool and very early, and lategame, S-CHAIN is pretty toodles too. The whoring+slugging package is worth a 3.0, and leaves you with a more flexible set to play with.
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How effective are her status moves, anyway? There's no real indication of what "Dex Down" or "Vit Down" does.
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By the time she gets in, I may have actually tested them!
But yeah, KOS-MOS is a good choice (Don't think her base evade is really anything though, and Body Charge doesn't up evade as far I know). She be better late if S-Chain and X-Buster could both be turn consistent spammable options! Alys is also a solid non-Geno choice too since she gets at least a number of the buffing competents, if separately.
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How effective are her status moves, anyway? There's no real indication of what "Dex Down" or "Vit Down" does.
Halve damage and 1.5x damage for Attack/Defense down. Dex Down makes your accuracy really fail, as S-CHAIN demonstrates (it's also cool because it nukes both physical and magical accuracy). Also, her evade at base is actually second-best in XS1. Roughly 30% from my recollection? Not bad when coupled up with the game-best Def/MDef+second-best HP scores.
EDIT: I didn't realize BC didn't boost evade stats, though, so your assessment is entirely fair. Was assuming she got a beefy evade boost too.
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Finalized submission:
Rikku (4)
Virginia (3.5)
KOS-MOS (Body change) (3)
Nall (0.5)
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Ohai, it's been awhile since I've been here. Yoshi and Glen told me Neph's been bugging people to make teams, and I love the Dungeon, so I figured, why not. Here's what I put together.
Ramza (3.5)
Amarant (2.0)
Chie (2.0)
Chris (2.5)
Bow (1.0)
Vantage Effect Sealstone
So, this started with the funny idea of using Amarant w/ Vantage Effect, since Amarant can have both Counter and Magic Counter at once. Then I kinda piled onto that. Ramza probably has a Counter ability throughout every job I'll be switching into, and I can have him as an effective-ish healer, too. Chris has Silent Lake in case the magic gets out hand (and speedy healing if needed), and I think she can counter, too, given the correct Bujutsu skills and all, but I'll let the others be the judge of that one. Bow can buff and heal, which is always mucho handy, and word around town, he can counter, too (but with that damage, I think that's an added benefit more than anything, lol). Lastly, and most importantly, I haven't actually played Persona 4, so I'd like someone to verify this/give me more information on this: Chie has a physical counter that also counters MT physicals and annuls the initial attack? Now, if this is true, that + Silent Lake sounds, well, lethal. I would love for someone to clear this up for me.
Either way, the general mantra of the team is counter-to-kill, since I actually can't do all that much damage myself, lol
Thoughts?
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A lot of those counters are either rare or not legal. I don't think Amarant's would be considered legal (Used by too many people), if Chris has Counter, the rate isn't great, Chie's is called Counter but it's just damage reflection (So nothing is gained from the seal stone).
Also, SL is not early and barring making Ramza a healer, there's very little revival.
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A lot of those counters are either rare or not legal. I don't think Amarant's would be considered legal (Used by too many people), if Chris has Counter, the rate isn't great, Chie's is called Counter but it's just damage reflection (So nothing is gained from the seal stone).
Also, SL is not early and barring making Ramza a healer, there's very little revival.
Amarant's physical counter, I can understand. However, only two characters (him and Vivi) can use Magic Counter. Also, Vantage Effect makes the rate of Counters 100%, so Chris' counter rate would occur regardless of percentage.
I did plan on making Ramza a Chemist from F1, which would make him a healer as well. Following up on F2, I would go towards being a Monk w/ Items, and Hamedo stuff up.
As for Chie, I'm not quite sure what you mean by damage reflection. Is it simply making the enemy attack themselves, in a sense? That wouldn't count as a counter?
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Yeah Chie's counter skill is a bit unusual. In P4 there's a skill called Tetrakarn that reflects the enemies damage back at them, just like Reflect with magic in the FF series. Counter basically gives Chie a chance (30% I think) to activate Tetrakarn when she is hit with a physical attack. It's hitting the enemy with their own attack instead of with an attack based off of Chie's attack which is why there's an argument for it to not work with Vantage.
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ThePiggyman: Amusing, thinking about Vantage recently myself. Have you played Wild Arms 4? If so, I'd highly recommend sneaking Raquel into a Vantage team. She has Hi-Counter as a reminder, which is +50% damage, which is a ZOMGWTF one-hit KO to a huge amount of stuff. It *probably* works on MT attacks too. (Tide claimed that the only attack that hits multiple hexes in the game, Boss Kresnik's circular Volley, can be countered by Jude...) Raquel also has some soloing ability off Dragon Edge, so the "save Raquel for last" problem can be mildly solved with Raquel solo + Nall in case of emergency.
Another person who might be worth considering in a Vantage team is Fang, if you've played FF13. Her counters aren't great damage, but more importantly she can draw attacks to herself with Sentinel and tank 'em like a champ. This is more helpful if you have squishy healers you want to protect. (If you don't use a Firefly-esque Fang, I'd recommend tanky healers like Rand or Yuna to deter the healer beatdown. Well, Yuna's functionally tanky off her evade.)
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Er, there are lots of multi-hex attacks in WA4 (offhand, the final's Punishing Ray, ABM Launcher, Claymore, and Prismatic Ray... and that's just one boss!), and I've never yet seen one countered by the PCs' counterattack. Then again, I'm not sure I've ever seen boss Kresnik's Circular Volley, so it could be that that is some sort of weird exception!
Actually I thought WA4 counter only worked on a subset of physical attacks (usually ones with unflashy animations, although sometimes enemies have more than one such), which feels quite limiting to me in the dungeon, unless Vantage lets the person counter things they couldn't normally.
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Thanks for the input everyone. I'll probably be scratching Chie off. It was a cool idea, but it does seem finicky, which is never a good thing in a Dungeon battle, I presume. Raquel can smash things pretty amazingly, but her counters seem a little up-in-the-air, too, which the whole hex thing. The lolslow speed wouldn't even bother me if we knew exactly how her counters operated, but it seems like something that will divide people. Although I am being told by people that Raquel can just solo some battles with her physical durability and offense. I think it's time to go back to the drawing board. ^^;
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Use Fire Emblem people! (and get into some sort of debate as to whether they can counter or not)
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Alright, so I just threw something new together.
Athos (3.5)
Amarant (2.0)
Sharanda (2.0)
Worker 8 (2.0)
Ditto (0.5)
Nall (1.0)
Vantage Effect Sealstone
Even if Athos doesn't get actual long-lasting tomes 'til Floor 3, he's still Athos. I would say he's a perfect recipient for the Vantage Effect. Amarant, despite not having Counter because of legality claims, I would still grant him Return Magic, since only two people (himself and Vivi) can have it. With that, Amarant can fling back any MT magic at an opponent before it even hits the team. Sharanda can dish out effective damage with items (MT, too!). Psyche Bomb X later on (if I get there) will be pretty sexy. I've been told that Sharanda, along with the items displayed here (http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dungeon_Stuff#Sharanda) also has access to healing items? With those, I can make sure my next team member, Worker 8, can be healed and revived as well. Worker 8 now has 100% counters to physical attacks, and since magic isn't gonna hurt him, it's gonna be even tougher to take him down, unless you've got MT physicals. Aaaaand, last, but not least, Ditto. Oh, sure, Ditto might blow, but he can become magic immune by becoming Worker 8, or he can take Athos' stats in the earlier levels and make it so he just evades the heck out of everything. Athos only has 5 uses of his lower level spells like Purge/Bolting and stuff, so Ditto isn't exactly hindered by that anyways.
And obviously, this team's revival isn't all too good, so Nall to the rescue!
I feel better about this team than the first one I threw together, but input and critiques are always welcome. :)
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Er, there are lots of multi-hex attacks in WA4 (offhand, the final's Punishing Ray, ABM Launcher, Claymore, and Prismatic Ray... and that's just one boss!), and I've never yet seen one countered by the PCs' counterattack. Then again, I'm not sure I've ever seen boss Kresnik's Circular Volley, so it could be that that is some sort of weird exception!
Actually I thought WA4 counter only worked on a subset of physical attacks (usually ones with unflashy animations, although sometimes enemies have more than one such), which feels quite limiting to me in the dungeon, unless Vantage lets the person counter things they couldn't normally.
I was asked for multi-HEX target physical attacks used by the enemies. Which if I recall is actually really limited. All of the multi-hex target attacks named for the final sans possibly Punishing Ray (although I'm fairly certain on this too) are all magical. You could argue that they don't trigger Magic Blocker/Reflect so theoretically there is no counter, but I don't really buy it. For the record, Tal couldn't really think of one either IIRC. There are lots of Multi-HEX target magic spells from enemies, but for physical ones, Circular Volley is seriously the only one I could think of.
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I was asked to make a team by a man I respect who threatened to cry his manly manly tears if I did not. So I am here to catch manly tears and save them for a better time.
Cidoflas Orlandu (4), Rikku (4), Nina 4 (3). Status Symbol Law.
Figure it cuts out some of the bullshit. Slow start, but whatever.
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I was asked to make a team by a man I respect who threatened to cry his manly manly tears if I did not. So I am here to catch manly tears and save them for a better time.
Cidoflas Orlandu (4), Rikku (4), Nina 4 (3). Status Symbol Law.
Figure it cuts out some of the bullshit. Slow start, but whatever.
This is a True American.
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See what Grefter said, only I haven't decided on a team yet. Any suggestions, people?
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Most people start with either a theme ("Lots of Healing") or a character they really like. I would suggest starting at either of those ideas.
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Try looking at the Sealstone list. It might make a fun idea pop out at you. That's how I put my team together, at least.
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TimeLord, Geddoe, Tidus, Aeris, Mint(ToP), Life Stealstone on Aeris.
No particular gimmick, just threw 'em together. Let me know if this is good.
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I think that's a pretty solid team,. although your two healers do have some issues in the durability department.
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Aeris/Mint durability isn't really particularly problematic. Aeris really likes getting Life anyway, since it mitigates her biggest issue as a healer, and her limits actually make her fairly dangerous to hit into danger range once she reaches that L3 threshold. Plus, FF7 Regen is pretty good while it lasts! The team looks fairly solid, for all that it doesn't much like lightning blocking. TimeTwister on Geddoe is bound to be all sorts of entertainment otherwise, though. =D
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Yeah, looks like it could do some neat things with turn manipulation between Tidus, Timelord and Aeris. The biggest problem is that offense is real bad if the opponent resists lightning.
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TEAM LIST AS OF 12/27
If I missed yours please post it so I can add it. Thank you!
Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
Dhyer | Dorothy, Palom & Porom (Body Charge), Terra, Crono
Djinn | Cecilia, Jack, Rudy, Jane, Emma
Jo'ou | Zerase, Alys, White Rose, Billy, FFT Priest
Random | Deis2, Lucian & Shiho, Terra, Marco (NeoSpeed)
Glen | Deis1, Red XIII, Sharanda, Yosuke, Emma
Monkey | Rikku, Virginia, KOS-MOS (Body Charge), Nall
Piggyman | Athos, Amarant, Sharanda, Worker 8, Ditto [Nall] (Vantage)
Grefter | Orlandu, Rikku, Nina4 (Status Symbol Law)
Dune | Timelord, Geddoe, Tidus, Aeris (Life), Mint
dude | Geno, Crowley (Body Charge), Geno. Crono, Jack, Nall
Super | Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Alena, Brey [Nall] (Status Symbol Law)
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Fang (3.0)
Vanille (2.0)
Peppita (3.0)
White Rose (2.0)
Aeris (Restore) (1.0)
Violent Burst Law
Thoughts?
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Fang (3.0)
Vanille (2.0)
Peppita (3.0)
White Rose (2.0)
Aeris (Restore) (1.0)
Violent Burst Law
Thoughts?
Fang and Vanille should have some good synergy, and I like White Rose there to provide some power for the first few floors. The team will still struggle a bit early, but if they get to floor 4 they could have some fun potential for status nastiness. Sealstone wise, I think Neo Speed on Fang would serve your team a bit better than Violent Burst unless the majority of people allow TP techniques. The reason being that most of your team is around average speed and it could be helpful to have Fang disable some threats before they get the chance to attack with Slow or Daze. It also works as a deterrent for opponents to use MT damage because then they'll build Aeris's Limit Gauge.
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It also works as a deterrent for opponents to use MT damage because then they'll build Aeris's Limit Gauge.
VBL stops Aeris from getting her limit bar back. That said...
...I remember Mystics as being really good in the earlygame, and Peppita... Eh, if you scale her levels normally, gets beastly pretty fast. No idea about Fang or Vanille, though.
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It also works as a deterrent for opponents to use MT damage because then they'll build Aeris's Limit Gauge.
VBL stops Aeris from getting her limit bar back. That said...
...I remember Mystics as being really good in the earlygame, and Peppita... Eh, if you scale her levels normally, gets beastly pretty fast. No idea about Fang or Vanille, though.
I know that VBL prevents her from getting her limit back, I was explaining that Neo Speed on Fang might suit the team better. In that case Aeris's limits would build like normal.
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I thought Neph changed it so that VBL only cuts Limit gain to 25% of normal now?
That said, if CT wants a VBL team, she should probably consider using more PCs that benefit from it. Otherwise NeoSpeed is a better option.
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I thought Neph changed it so that VBL only cuts Limit gain to 25% of normal now?
That said, if CT wants a VBL team, she should probably consider using more PCs that benefit from it. Otherwise NeoSpeed is a better option.
I don't think I did, but I COULD...
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Celes (Speed?)
Nel
Lyn
Yukiko
Cray
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the president asks and I oblige
Yuri (SH1)
Fogel (OB)
Cielo (DDS)
Yukiko (P4)
Mime (FF5)
With Status Symbol as my stone.
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Thanks for the input on my team guys =)
Anyone else have any input on whether VBL would effect FFXIII's TP bar or not? (I'd be fine with a Neph call here) I can't really remember whether it worked with WA FP either for example =/
As a reminder here's what the girls would get F1 according mainly to the set ups accepted in the brainstorming thread a while back -
Fang - Attack, Ruin, Slow, Curse, Blitz, Adrenaline, Smite, Launch, Mediguard, Evade
Vanille - Deshell, Deprotect, Cure, Aero, Fire, Water
Peppita - Magic Hook (inflicts chaos/confusion), Charge, short O, counters (highly successful at inflicting chaos/confusion) , Critical Hit
White Rose - Healing/revival. Don't know what else she starts with (gonna play SF soon =))
Aeris - Cure, Healing Wind
If the team gets past the first floor once Peppita picks up Power Dance it should make Fang's Blitz pretty evil especially if Vanille can get the Deprotect/gas going later too =)
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VBL I would let work on it.
If you're going that route, I would seriously consider going with press turn. That+imperil would get crazy in theory. I don't like Peppita on that team (You're already locking down Aeris/Fang/Vanille with average speed) and she's expensive.
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Don't see any reason why VBL wouldn't work with TP. It's not even the same as FP since FP gets set to default after battle while TP does not.
The bigger argument is what you can do with it.
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Don't see any reason why VBL wouldn't work with TP. It's not even the same as FP since FP gets set to default after battle while TP does not.
The bigger argument is what you can do with it.
QUAKE.
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Renew is really useful in a pinch too.
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Usual FF13 TP antihype note: Only the leader can use TP abilities. Leader death is gameover. I'm certainly fine with letting all characters in the dungeon be "extras" for whom death is not game over (unless it's all FF13 characters), but Summon (or Renew or whatever) hype implies they are actually set them as Leader, which is asking for trouble in a lot of the Dungeon.
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I pretty much second Snowfire. Not to mention TP abiities (besides Summon) aren't unique in any way (every PC gets all of them unless I'm forgetting something) so I'm pretty lukewarm about hype for them.
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Also agree with SnowFire. Do note that only one character can be leader, so only one character can use the TP abilities. Not that it matters much, but still.
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I was under the impression they would be able to use their Summon only yeah and that was decided in the final points cost for Fang/Vanille when they were added \0/ If the summoner dies while the summon is out they auto cast Arise on everyone.
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As requested by the PRESIDENT OF THESE GREAT UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, a new team.
And since everyone here seems BIASED against vaginas...this team is aaaaalllll about the penis! Sexay penii!!!
Yuri (SH1) - 3.5
Yuri (SH2) - 3.5
Nash - 2
Adray - 1
Robo - 1
If I'm not allowed to have double yuri in my all penis team (lol), then...
Yuri (SH2) - 3.5
Scias - 3
Arnaud - 2
Teddie - 1.5
Adray - 1
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You get 11 points now, you goober.
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Edited, foul President!
I never voted for you anyway ;_;
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I'm calling shenanigans on Robo being on the "Penii team".
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That's what the "Uzzi Punch" is for.
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I'm going to put my Geno/Crowley Body Charge team on the shelf for now. I came up with a defensive team and I'd like to see how it fairs in the dungeon.
Cecilia 3.5
Ramza 3.0
Worker 8 2.0
Kyra 2.0
Ditto .5 (quick powder)
Firefly sealstone
Basic premise of the team is obvious. Use Worker 8 to soak up all of the magic damage while the team buffs to hell and slowly wears down the enemy. Kyra and Worker 8 are pretty much best friends since Medice gives Kyra a reliable way to keep Worker healed up and if you see Warla working on Worker 8 then that's even better. If not that's okay, she can cripple the enemy with Telele or try to put them to sleep to give the team some breathing room. Ramza will be going for item immediately so he provides another way to keep worker 8 alive and eventually can do fun stuff like Ninja damage, Samurai versatility, or Summoner tricks. Cecilia of course has her massive skillset and provides pretty much everything from buffs of every flavor to debilitating status. She can even heal Worker 8 in a pinch with Mystic. Ditto is there to provide another option if needed whether it be Ramza's damage, Cecilia's buffing or Kyra's solid versatility.
If the enemy does manage to punch through the frontline of Worker 8, they will still have to get through the rest of the team. Cecilia and Ditto both have the option to become magically immune if they want and Ramza has all of that good FFT equip options and evasion whoring. Even Cecilia will stand up to physicals pretty well once Warla has been used.
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Sorry for the double post, but if I turned Ramza into a mediator for a floor would I be allowed to permanently modify his and Worker 8's brave?
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No.
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Hmm, thinking I'm going to change my team up somewhat:
Virginia(3.5) + Red (2.5) + Sharanda(2.0) + Emma(1)(Speed?) + Eiko(1.5) With a half point left over for good luck or something.
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So apparently I am dumb and can't read, since NeoSpeed being on Marco would prevent him from Transturning people which would counter the entire purpose of using it Marco. Oops. So, time for another option, which so far seems to either entail keeping NeoSpeed but using it on someone else, or using another sealstone entirely.
Team is Deis2/Lucian/Shiho/Terra/Marco for reference.
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So, I realize they aren't actually in the list yet, but my next team I'm thinking about:
3 Fang
2 Vanille
(2?) Snow (Firefly SS)
(1.5?) Lightning (Leader)
(1.0-1.5?) Hope
Yeah, giving up a synergy sealstone, but... a team of all averageish initiative and erratic status blocking for whom one character's death means Game Over just direly needs Firefly lest it fall over and explode. This team is 1-1.5 points short of the 11 allowed, so hopefully the full-healing + revival after every battle thing FF13 has will be respected as a mini-synergy Sealstone anyway. (I personally would enforce this for any FF13 character regardless of sealstone, since that's just how FF13 characters roll, but figured it'd be useful if that was explicit. I'd also add "if the floor does not conclude within 250 rounds the team gets Doomed and Game Overed", similar to how stalling forever in-game doesn't work. Also means that Summon is basically once-per-floor, as it should be.)
Also on Floor 5 I can totally pick my own leader rather than have the game dungeon pick for me!!1!
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Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
Dhyer | Dorothy, Palom & Porom (Body Charge), Terra, Crono
Djinn | Cecilia, Jack, Rudy, Jane, Emma
Jo'ou | Zerase, Alys, White Rose, Billy, FFT Priest
Random | Deis2 (NSpeed), Lucian & Shiho, Terra, Marco
Monkey | Rikku, Virginia, KOS-MOS (Body Charge), Nall
Piggyman | Athos, Amarant, Sharanda, Worker 8, Ditto [Nall] (Vantage)
Grefter | Orlandu, Rikku, Nina4 (Status Symbol Law)
Dune | Timelord, Geddoe, Tidus, Aeris (Life), Mint
dude | Cecilia, Ramza, Worker 8 (Firefly), Kyra, Ditto
Super | Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Alena, Brey [Nall] (Status Symbol Law)
Glen | Virginia, Red, Sharanda, Emma, (Speed?) Eiko
OK | Yuri1, Yuri2, Nash, Adray, Robo
Trips | Yuri, Fogel, Cielo, Yukiko, Mime (SSL)
CT | Fang, Vanille, Peppita, White Rose, Aeris (VBL)
Snowfire | Fang, Vanille, Snow (Firefly), Lightning, Hope
Tal | Celes (Speed?) Nel, Lyn, Yukiko, Cray
Did I miss anyone?
VVVV: Fixed
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The ones on the last page - dude's modified team, random's unknown Sealstone substitution, and my team.
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Also note that I have Firefly on Snow.
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Celes (Speed?)
Nel
Lyn
Yukiko
Cray
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Hmm I think I should probably choose a better Sealstone since it seems most people think VBL doesn't work with FFXIII characters and not sure it's worth keeping for Aeris alone. Perhaps I should also think of a better 1.0 choice than Aeris to synergise with my team if there is one since Aeris isn't that great aside from her limits ;P
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On reflection (and playing FFX), changing team to Fogel (Multitarget)/Rune/Tidus/Marco/Raja.
Let's see how badly this is going to blow up in my face. (edit: switching Alakazam to Rune, on thinking on things some more)
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If it's not too late, I'd like to change my team.
Athos (3.5)
Ramza (3.0)
Worker 8 (2.0)
Red Mage (1.5)
Nino (1.0)
Vantage Effect Sealstone
Going to make some adjustments to my team, since I decided that Amarant's Return Magic is honestly not enough to merit the 2 points I'm spending for him. His Auto-Life is the crappy kind that only resets your turn and only gives you 1 HP, and his damage is only truly good for one floor, until Steiner comes back and Vivi starts learning -ga spells. Ramza will work much better, and allow me some twinkery. Also bringing in FF5 Red Mage, even though he can't really counter, since he has revival (that later becomes duel-revival, yay!) and nasty status, like Frog, Confuse and Sleep (that later becomes duel-nasty status, hooray!).
As for Nino, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on her. Evidently, there's going to be a bit of disparity with interps, but she fits in well with the Vantage sealstone, and can eventually heal. Should I toss Nino, and grab another reviver (Tear?) instead?
I'll go with the team I posted for now, but please don't hesitate to point out things that concern you, or that you might change.
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Without extra scaling outside of the norm, Nino starts as having trash in every stat, and that doesn't change until floor 5. Even with extra scaling, her stats still end up bad at the end because I'm not seeing her get higher level than the DL until Floor 8.
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Without extra scaling outside of the norm, Nino starts as having trash in every stat, and that doesn't change until floor 5. Even with extra scaling, her stats still end up bad at the end because I'm not seeing her get higher level than the DL until Floor 8.
So, by those standards, she's essentially a reverse-Athos who still ends up worse than Athos in practice. Ouch. Her healing wouldn't even be allowed 'til F6 or something, since the promotion would be just as delayed. I can't get behind that. I'm going to switch Nino out for Adray. I think I need support more than I need offense anyways.
Confirming my new team.
Athos (3.5)
Ramza (3.0)
Worker 8 (2.0)
Red Mage (1.5)
Adray (1.0)
Vantage Effect Sealstone
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I know that not everyone uses Dhyer's scaling for Nino though. I'd see her as having her starting stats until the end of floor 4 and then she's caught up by the end of floor 5. So she's alright for floor 1 or 2, bad for floor 3 and four, solid again for floor 5 and then good for floor 6 and beyond. It takes her like a map and a half to get caught up to the team so I don't penalize her for her low starting level past those middle floors.
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Yeah. Don't get me wrong, I dislike Nino, but Dhyer's interp is too harsh. If Nino is 1.0, there are certainly interps that make her a 1.0 where she eats a nasty level penalty early, but not later on. Basically, pretend Nino joined up at an equivalent level disadvantage but on Floor 1 (so, uh, Level -10 or so, some kind of Amelia situation?!)... so she's going to be useful by Floor 4 or so when she's eating a lesser level penalty. I can see interps that have her be behind on level until Floor 8, but that Nino is clearly a 0.0 pick.
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I honestly can't think of many Nino interps that would make her worth a 1.0 to me. FE7 isn't as kind to catchup as FE8 is due to some weirdness in its exp formula.
Just running some numbers for my own curiosity, using Snowfire's suggestion... by the conventions used for the equal exp topic (which result in an endgame level of roughly 20/15), average level is 20/3 when Nino joins (generously, it assumes she gets full Exp on her joining map). So I guess I'd see her as 18 levels underlevelled from average when the game starts (average level is 6 at that point, yay Marcus)... i.e. Level -12. Now, running her through the spreadsheet at that level... she hits Level 1 in Chapter 18, and finally catches up to her own starting level of 5 in Chapter 19. She promotes around Chapter 28 and is 20/4 at endgame. So she's... always significantly underlevelled.
The only view of Nino that is worth 1.0 (and indeed, might be better than 1.0, but I'd have to look at what the general value of FE mages in the dungeon is) is one that lets her start with no exp penalty at all as if she joined near the start of the game, and levelled normally from there. Anything else will make her suck. The way she does in-game, fancy that.
Boot Nino
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What if I replaced Nino with Ewen?
I could also use Erk.
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You could probably replace Nino with Lute and nobody would shed tears.
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Ewan is fine. Summoner is wacky in the Dungeon but bad anyway so whatever. Lute's also good, but Ewan's class choice translates better to the Dungeon than Lute's (where movement is of questionable value), so I'd vote for Ewan. (or both!)
DHE: FE7 is that harsh? So Nino starts 18 levels behind, and ends up a mere 11 levels behind despite having the whole hypothetical game to play with? Yikes.
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Ewan has the same problem as Nino, just not as extreme. I guess that's the point but I just don't think the potential is that amazing to justify someone so bad at first. I guess that's the point, it's a good deal for a small cost later, but eh. How much is Moulder's cost again? I have a hard time not seeing him as better than Ewan in the vast majority of teams.
Snowfire: Yeah. FE7 exp curve is a strange thing. There's actually a penalty for being lower-levelled than your enemy, and while the general rule of "lower levelled = more exp gained" holds, this penalty seriously bites notably underlevelled PCs.
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Ewan has the same problem as Nino, just not as extreme. I guess that's the point but I just don't think the potential is that amazing to justify someone so bad at first. I guess that's the point, it's a good deal for a small cost later, but eh. How much is Moulder's cost again? I have a hard time not seeing him as better than Ewan in the vast majority of teams.
Snowfire: Yeah. FE7 exp curve is a strange thing. There's actually a penalty for being lower-levelled than your enemy, and while the general rule of "lower levelled = more exp gained" holds, this penalty seriously bites notably underlevelled PCs.
Equal Experience isn't necessarily how most people play FE games though. Most players know ahead of time whether they're going to use Nino or not ahead of time, and even if they don't if they use Nino they're going to take measures to ensure that Nino catches up to the rest of the team. Equal experience works better in a dual setting where everyone has to be compared to everyone else, but it's not completely indicative of in game use and I think that the dungeon tends to focus more on how characters perform in an in game setting.
Also, BTW Moulder is a .5 pick.
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The problem with "in-game meaning grossly favour Nino" is... well, it's not a good measure of in-game use. It's often how she's played because people find it fun to level someone up so quickly, but certainly not objective worth. Notably doing this -does- make the rest of your team worse... or alternatively, favouring anyone in the last few maps as much as such a strategy would favour Nino will make that PC insanely good. Nino's usually considered a bad PC for a reason, see Meeple's rating topic (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4634.msg108760.html#msg108760) (and that's with our lovable OK giving her an obvious troll rating of 9.4).
Also, BTW Moulder is a .5 pick.
Yeah, I have no idea why Ewan would be valued more highly than Moulder. Lategame Ewan is better, but not dramatically (E. has better offence, but M. has better healing), while earlygame Moulder can heal while Ewan can be some flavour of failure depending on interp. Moulder hasn't proved overpowered for 0.5 so I guess I'm arguing that Nino/Ewan are worth 0. Which... seems reasonable for "bad Fire Emblem character" to me!
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Well, to avoid any issues, I will just change Nino to Lute and that should solve that particular problem.
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Yeah, sorry, if not clear, I meant "hypothetical Ewan joining immediately." (Obviously terrible if that proviso isn't added.) That said Lute is shiny and her low CON is funny so I approve.
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I like Ewan for much the same reason as I like the idea of FE9 Tanith in the Dungeon. Summoning extra targets/meatshields/fodder isn't a niche that's been made available yet and I think it's a much more clear-cut option in the Dungeon than the DL. Even if the summoned fodder isn't particularly helpful, there's got to be some strategies that would be interesting there.
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If you want an FE8 Summoner, I highly recommend Knoll. He's not nearly as underlevelled and his summons are legitimately better (along with his combat being worse!), so he's much more likely to be played as a Summoner in-game.
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Also FE8 summons in the Dungeon are terrible. They're acceptable in-game because you send one out and say "We'll be right behind you!" and then lure enemies out who horribly overkill the poor summon, but then you get to strike first. That positional game doesn't fly in the Dungeon where you're just giving up a turn instead.
Ewan sucks, but hypothetical Ewan is sort of interesting in that he can go Anima *or* Dark. Not that this makes an amazing amount of difference.
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FE8 phantoms are not even remotely interesting in the dungeon. Whoo completely ignorable target that you have to waste a turn summoning and it might as well have no offense. It only matters defensively (which is pretty much its only use ingame) in dungeon for helping to screw up randotargetting or unfocusing MT that depends on how many people get hit and those are hardly common occurances in the dungeon and even when it does come up it is basically "you used a turn on that?"
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If they are -that- useless, then I'd rather support FE9 Tanith in the Dungeon for the same function. She can at least spam enough Pegasus Mooks (2 at a time) to swarm healers (also, if she has 4 of them, then they can surround melee fighters and force ranged/MT attacks). She's also a decent Pegasus Knight herself.
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Just to set the record straight, she can summon three at a time (one with quite decent stats, two scrubs), but only do so a maximum of twice per battle. She also will in general have to choose between "direct to surround a target" and "attack whoever looks most fragile", directed at all pegasus knights but this AI setting can be changed each round.
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I could get behind dungeon Tanith. Although, mechanics question there: if Tanith dies, what happens to any Pegasus Knights on the stage at the time? Will they just follow the last given order, or will they disappear too?
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Technically speaking the orders are given by the player, so assuming they do live, it would be possible to change their orders on subsequent turns. Not sure if they retreat too or not, though, although that could be fairly easily tested.
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Neph could I change my team's Sealstone to Neo Speed please? =) Thanks~
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Neph could I change my team's Sealstone to Neo Speed please? =) Thanks~
Sure thing, I'll fix it.
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I keep getting confused by which Dungeon topic is for what. I don't think it really matters at this stage, they've kinda merged into one. >_>
Anyways, after talking with Pigs, I have an idea for a team, although this would be to enter after my current one. (I have a lot of ideas, but this one's actually kinda interesting!)
- Yuna (3.0)
- Demi (3.5)
- Yukari (1.0)
- Yosuke (2.0)
- Teddie (1.5)
So the team is packed with healers who are Lightning-weak, and Yuna starting with NulShock. Past the fact that everyone has some form of healing, Demi has good damage, Yukari has good magic damage, Yosuke has some physical/magic damage and (Ma)Sukukaja, and Teddie has ridiculous buffs and some magic damage. Team is perfectly capable of sweeping once it gets around the electric weakness, which is exactly what Yuna is there for.
Any thoughts on this one?
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That's a pretty interesting concept. I think the only concern would be high magic resistance, but even then you have decent physical damage to back it up with.
EDIT: You're also probably right, I was kind of lax on making this just the submission thread so I can probably just merge the two now.
EDIT2: Just to be clear I didn't mean a literal merge, I meant unsticky the Brainstorming topic!
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I want to say that NulShock only works on the first lightning spell in which case battles with multi acting bosses with lightning damage or just more than one character with lightning is a problem.
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I want to say that NulShock only works on the first lightning spell in which case battles with multi acting bosses with lightning damage or just more than one character with lightning is a problem.
This is also true.
CRONO FUCKS YOU UP HARDCORE!? (actually he kind of does)
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Yeah, noted as much, and considered Cecilia for Permanence, but it wasn't really worthwhile.
But, really, double-acting/insanely fast Lightning-using characters are relatively rare, and should be easy enough to avoid on floor choices. Hopefully.
As far as more than one character with lightning goes, I should be able to take out a slower one relatively easily and Yuna can throw NulShocks around endlessly after that. Like I said, it's an interesting team more than anything, and I'm curious to see how far a balanced team with an obvious weakness can get~
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Deis1 (3.5)
Rydia (Life)+Rosa (2.5)
Hilda (2.0)
Jane (2.0)
Nall (1.0)
...Sealstone idea is based on whether or not SH3 Stellar Chart customization is legal. Resourceless if it's not, since Hilda needs the castings. If it is... I dunno. Either Multitarget or SSL. Not sure which. Due to rulings by Neph, I've made my decision.
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Changing my team.
Seifer w/ Body Charge (1.5)
Celes (4.0)
Benjamin (3.0)
Eiko (1.5)
Nei (1.0)
The Vantage team was fun, but I'll save it for next time. This is Team Seifer. With Body Charge and Song of Madness, Seifer will destroy worlds. Celes, Benjamin and Eiko are Seifer's posse and support (they all have magic damage, healing, status healing, revival) and make sure he's still on his feet so he can keep kicking ass.
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They also have RAGE.
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Just wanted to make a minor note; Ramza is currently worth 3.0, and FFT Ninja is worth 2.5. For a mere extra 0.5, it seems to me like picking Ramza is a HUGE bonus over picking FFT Ninja. Ramza admittedly has to wait until Floor 4 to be a Ninja, but as we've seen in the Dungeon, reaching Floor 4 isn't the most difficult task in the world. Ramza can also dual-wield with better weapons, not to mention has a plethora of better Support and Reaction abilities. I would consider dropping FFT Ninja in value, if not outright removing him.
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Yeah, we had a similar situation earlier with FF5 Chemist and Butz. I wouldn't think removing him would be too bad.
Since we now have a Saga Frontier stat topic with good mech stats what would you guys think about adding T260G with body type choice for around 3.5 points or so.
Pros: Pretty much all of the forms have great durability and most have good speed. Body choice allows it a lot of room for offense or defense. Omega Body has great damage and stats overall. Neat synergy with other robot type characters.
Cons: Almost all the forms have shaky resources. Most healing skills are less effective on T260G.
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Ninja can probably be safely dropped without any issues.
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I would use the heck out of a T260G if she was available.
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I wonder how important the body types would actually be. I don't remember many of them having any use except the gimmicky I CAN ALSO HEAL MECHS one.
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There's a decent amount of difference between them. The BJ&K body can heal humans well early on and has nice burst damage. Rabbit body trades BJ&K's human healing for more speed and still has Magnify. Engineer Car body is one of the most useful since it can also heal mechs WP which could be useful for Wren or Demi but it's also the slowest. The PzkwV body looks like the most durable and Zeke body has the best speed. Once she gets to floor 6 or so she will probably want to stick with the Omega body though outside of very specific teams.
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11 points huh? I might as well try my hand!
Chris Lightfellow 2.5
Raquel Applegate 3.0 (Neo Speed) - I think it works on her.
Crono 2.0
Citan Hyuga 3.0
Rena 0.5
Done! Not the craziest magic group, but passable I think.
edit: Took out Nina and added Rena.
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The healing on that team is amazingly awful.
EDIT: To elaborate, you don't have revival until floor 4, Chris' resources utterly -suck- for her to work as a healing battery and Citan's healing takes two turns to become MT and becomes progressively worse with time. You'd probably want to stick someone like Mint or Rena on that 0.5 spot, since Nina3 offense sucks anyway and her durability is an endless liability.
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EDITTED FOR CONSISTENCY:
Ramza - 3.0
Citan - 2.5
ACF Cecilia - 2.5
RAP MASTA SEIFER - 1.0
Raynie - 1.0
Yeah I realize this doesn't use all 11 points, this is due to the use of Body Charge and having some freedom moving the stone around after chatting about it with Neph. So yeah. Should be fun. Old team scrapped because I had no one for Magic damage other than Cecilia and that's probably going to run into problems at some point.
Also, that's right, I am using SEIFER. Fear me.
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So I have been considering two (rather major) dungeon changes.
The first is to allow equipment swapping before any fight on a floor. This means that there will probably be more "Fight X, then fight Y" final boss fights on floors (which isn't a bad thing, necessarily...) but it may have farther-reaching impacts and change costs a lot, especially with characters who have good blockers vs. ones that don't.
The second change would be to limit skillsets on characters who don't join until later until they'd logically receive them in-game. This really affects people like Deis who would theoretically have her skillset reduced. I'm not really sure this one is worth it because it, again, completely changes certain dynamics. I might just go through and try and weed out some of the strange scaling issues and bring notice them.
As always, thoughts and opinions are encouraged and welcome.
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First one.. no preference either way, I guess, although I think it makes more sense to just have equip changes allowed at Full Heals and not between fights. That said, don't care enough either way to push for anything.
Second one, I'd specify characters on. Someone like, say, Teddie is bad enough over the first few floors. (Mabufula, Mediarama, Energy Shower. That's a pretty terrible skillset to keep hold of for the first 3 floors.) If there's a few offenders for it, then point them out as specific rulings on the Wiki, but I wouldn't punish everyone who joins later across the board.
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Not really a fan of either of the changes. It seems like it would create a really disproportionate gap between those who can block one or two elements or status at a time and those who can't. It feels like it would also devalue characters who can cover a lot of elemental and status resists with one setup compared to those who can only hit one or two at a time. I think allowing characters to replace broken weapons or with a new one or allow for a full change at Full Heals is fair though.
As for the second change, it seems like it would just be confusing and create interp issues. For the most part, characters like Deis who start out with strong skill sets already have it reflected in their cost.
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So I have been considering two (rather major) dungeon changes.
The first is to allow equipment swapping before any fight on a floor. This means that there will probably be more "Fight X, then fight Y" final boss fights on floors (which isn't a bad thing, necessarily...) but it may have farther-reaching impacts and change costs a lot, especially with characters who have good blockers vs. ones that don't.
I don't know if this one would be THAT much of an issue? As far as elemental blockers go, certain characters might benefit from swapping between them, but from what I've seen in the dungeon, I think it's only really been an issue a couple of times. For example, in the elemental fiend floor, I'd say the only element that you really need to worry about is Fire. The other fights aren't a walk in the park, of course, but the reliance on a single element isn't as great as the Rubicante / Ho-oh / Kary fight, and most teams can generally manage the rest of the floor if they can survive that floor without too much damage. I think what might be more worrisome is switching between status blockers. I recall one floor where someone had Orlandu, and the team failed because Orlandu could only block so many statuses at once with his equips. All things said, it doesn't bother me, and I'd be fine with it if we decide to change it. It might finally make Eiko a 2.0 (which, let's face it, is probably where she should be as is).
The second change would be to limit skillsets on characters who don't join until later until they'd logically receive them in-game. This really affects people like Deis who would theoretically have her skillset reduced. I'm not really sure this one is worth it because it, again, completely changes certain dynamics. I might just go through and try and weed out some of the strange scaling issues and bring notice them.
Ehh, I don't think this one's necessary. I mean, some characters are already a little impaired by their in-game join time, and I don't think this would really do much for anyone. Like dude said, characters with strong skillsets are more or less already denoted by their higher value.
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I particularly dislike both changes.
The first creates a large split over status blockers, as there is pretty rare occasion to change otherwise. As there are certain floors (the 4th especially) where enemies are dependent at throwing multiple statuses at you, this would be an easy way for a few people to trivialize those floors. However, longer boss fights are good since if well planned they can deemphasize speed.
The other is a headache. Voting is already complicated enough without reducing skillsets that people start with.
Teddie is stuck with that skillset the first few floors even with current rules.
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It's not that terrible of a skillset really. It's sparse, but Mediarama should be really good healing for floors one and two and MT averageish damage is never a bad thing.
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It's a bad skillset off that speed and durability (and Lightning weakness!) combo. Note that I just think that he's kind of a horrible choice even later.
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That's pretty much the point. As it stands, he has that for 3 floors, then starts getting some stuff that actually makes him useless. He has some capable damage/healing early on, and then gets some crazy good buffs, which help make up for the weakness. With the proposed change, his damage/healing is no longer good, so he's just dead weight for 3-4 floors.
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I think you meant useful, not useless.
Regardless, I'm certainly not going to make things more complicated, so I'll just leave things alone but try and clarify that you can't change equipment.
Maybe I should make an EQUIP CHANGE SEALSTONE??? (no I will not)
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I like the first change. Always felt like an arbitrary limitation to not let characters switch equips between fights. And I think it will help a lot with balancing since you don't have to scale everything around the fact that the characters must use the same setup for the ENTIRE FLOOR.
Second one I dislike because then you're considering characters who can't even exist in-game. You have to somehow extrapolate backwards and at worst make arbitrary decisions on where they get what. If they're that much of a problem, just remove them from the dungeon honestly. Late-joining PCs just aren't a good fit for the system and trying to hack them in is just a pain.
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Just glancing through the Wiki, some of it needs updating. Not sure if character values have changed or what, but I can see that Kyogre's still listed on the Specific Rules page, at least. Might not matter much, but I know there was discussion on changing values and don't know if that was ever reflected in the Wiki.
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The values of characters should be up-to-date. I can take another pass at it if there's anyone people think is outlying in terms of cost.
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Speaking of character values, I think it's time I retire Rikku.
I only say this because I feel like she's a free pass to a lot of later floors.
I am aware that OK used Rikku and failed very early on, but I think that had less to do with Rikku and more to do with the rest of his team.
I am, as always, open to suggestions on this particular matter, as well as retiring (or introducing) other characters.
I just don't like the idea of a character that can more or less solo entire floors until later on, which I realize some sort of do, but not as badly.
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I think it's a bit premature for now. I'd need to look more closely at the floor 7 fights status resists before I'm comfortable saying that she is a free pass for the floor. With that team being so small they really need to completely stop the opponent team with status or else they're in trouble.
Edit: Looking at the floor, it looks like only people who block sleep are Jude and maybe one of the other FF characters (Terra doesn't though and she's the biggest threat) this seems like more of a flaw with the floor than a flaw with the character. As it stands now, there are probably quite a few characters who could trivialize that floor with status (Toadstool, Songstress and Nash come to mind.)
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It isn't that she trivializes one floor, it's that she seems to trivialize multiple ones. From Floor 3 to 7 she more or less has the tools to shut them down. Are those faults of floor design? Possibly.
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Right now it's her status that's trivializing floors more than her other options. So adding more characters like Gilder or other characters who can shut down status should help. Hand out Ribbons or Status Symbol Law sealstones to characters in certain fights. If you really wanted to get creative you get incorporate more characters who shut down item use like Bowyer or say a Weavile (from Pokemon) that knows Embargo. It's the same problem we've always had with characters who have accurate status or ID.
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Right now it's her status that's trivializing floors more than her other options. So adding more characters like Gilder or other characters who can shut down status should help. Hand out Ribbons or Status Symbol Law sealstones to characters in certain fights. If you really wanted to get creative you get incorporate more characters who shut down item use like Bowyer or say a Weavile (from Pokemon) that knows Embargo. It's the same problem we've always had with characters who have accurate status or ID.
Well, I wouldn't say it's just her status. I mean, the super-accurate-lethal-MT-status-that-comes-in-different-flavours is definitely part of it, but I know a lot of people see Rikku as being able to charge her Overdrives by leaving the weakest opponent and alive and letting her hoard turns. And Overdrives like Super Mighty Guard off her crazy first turn speed can certainly trivialize a fight as well. Rikku murders PCs, but can easily trivialize boss battles, too.
I don't know if I like the idea of making certain fights completely status immune, or unable to use items, since I feel it'll hurt a lot of teams, all for the sake of shutting down status users. I mean, there are others with good status, like you mentioned, but Rikku has batshit crazy first turn speed. Songstress borders on average speed (and is really fragile), while someone like Nash's status is arguably not even MT. When it comes to status use in the dungeon, the primary objective is to prevent the opponent from getting a single turn. Most people in the dungeon don't live beyond a single turn, unless you're a durable boss, so if you can't prevent that single turn, status isn't really that worthwhile. Rikku excels at it thanks to her speed. And when she can't nuke with her status, she's got an actual backup strategy with Overdrives.
I mean, she's definitely worthy of being a 4.0, but I can understand Neph's gripes. =P
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I can definitely see getting rid of Rikku, mostly for the reasons Pigs said. It's not just "fast with status", but "fast with a variety of status, both positive and negative"
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Yeah, I have to agree with dude, I'm not quite sure exactly what the problem is. I can think of a few people who trivialize multiple floors with MT status, I can think of a few who've trivialized floors with positive status, which is also being overhyped as a concern as well. Yeah Use makes her next turn come up really fast, but you know what? Until she hits an overdrive, it's all ST and hitting that overdrive doesn't exactly take a trivial amount of time until she gets a Triple OD weapon, which is something like F6/7.
I mean, you say things like this:
I am aware that OK used Rikku and failed very early on, but I think that had less to do with Rikku and more to do with the rest of his team.
But I can say the same thing about any number of teams, ones that have both succeeded and failed at making it to F7. All the hype in the world for 4.0 PC of your choice here isn't going to make a difference if the rest of your team sucks at handling the things that 4.0 PC also sucks at handling, which doesn't seem to be the case for Monkey's team.
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Petrify Grenades are not ST. There are quite a few other skills of hers that are MT that don't involve Mix at all.
I'd be curious to see another individual character who can trivialize (let's say) floors 5, 6 and 7 by themselves, actually.
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Petrify Grenades are not ST. There are quite a few other skills of hers that are MT that don't involve Mix at all.
I'd be curious to see another individual character who can trivialize (let's say) floors 5, 6 and 7 by themselves, actually.
I wouldn't say that she's trivialized all of the floors, Floor 7 just ended up being one that had a bunch of status vulnerable PCs. Virginia and especially Body Charge KOS-MOS were both integral to Team Monkey's success on floors 5 and 6. Nall's also a really good pair with Rikku once she get's Al Behd Potions. A poorly designed Rikku team would have crashed and burned against the boss floor, but Monkey's team is pretty well designed. KOS-MOS and Virginia do a solid job of covering up Rikku's lack of damage while boosting the team's overall versatility.
Edit: Since it looks like overdrives are a big argument for while Rikku is overpowered, why not restrict her to a certain Overdrive mode like Stoic or something so she can't build up overdrive as easily unless the team is specifically designed around it.
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I meant that the buffs were ST, not Petrify Grenades. Perhaps I should have been clearer.
Also I hardly think Rikku is trivializing the entirety of floors 5-7 *all by herself* either, judging by the comments in past weeks. I for one would certainly love to know how she trivializes an entire floor of status immunes all by herself without others to do the heavy lifting.
Actually, you know what, the point is apparently flying over your head so I'm going to be mean here. This is a character who has been in the dungeon for a while now, from an absurdly well-played and well-documented game, whose two recent appearences in teams prior to this has went over like a lead balloon on *F2*, and people are crying because an apparently well-made team with two 4.0s and someone with Body Charge made it to Floor 7 and is looking at passing that. *Nothing about this is new information, there is no previously unknown cheap trick or gaminess or whatever that has come to light.* You are literally complaining because a team has been successful.
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My only issue with Rikku is that her as a 4.0 has always struck me as bizarre when she is, according to Meeple's running thread, the second least useful PC in FFX. Of course this is because the dungeon exists in fantasy land where it is easy to get enough of her items so that she can always use them - I get that - and the solutions to this (X limit per floor on some items, I dunno) are inelegant.
That said, from a raw power perspective... she doesn't feel overtly more powerful than a few other 4.0's, so I see no reason to retire her just based on that. However, I do agree with Snowfire's comments that a "full heal" should mean a "full reset" which reduces some of the silliness of storing overdrives for boss fights.
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There's also the solution of finally just expending values beyond 4.0. I wouldn't be entirely opposed to that, but I'm not even sure if she does warrant a 4.5 cost.
Full Heal working as a reset for Overdrives/Limits I think is a fair thing that I will be pursuing.
Sticking her with the Stoic Overdrive would probably also help.
My making floors better might help too!
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Rikku pretty much near auto-slammed floors 3 and 7, and most of floor 4. If you are looking for neutralization, no/later gained MT status. I don't think she's too powerful (I mean...Rika was the one that strikes me as absurd late with her buffs that last even after revival), but there are probably a lot of fights that need tailoring too. Since the rocket tag aspect of dungeon hasn't really decreased, someone with awesome turn 1 speed and who can often disable most->to all enemy PCs on turn 1 is going to be really powerful. I would say more bosses/status immune/durability on enemy side would help (Feels like there's been a lot of adding frail, not fast PCs on enemy teams, which aren't exactly a danger).
Only match that I've thought Rikku's limit was reallly going to matter was the final one of floor 4, which isn't after a full heal anyways. Putting on a limit on it may make sense, but in Monkey's case, it has not really been necessary (yet!)
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I'm not sure what to really do about the rocket tag aspect. I suppose I could start merging fights so they're more resource-intensive...
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I'm not sure what to really do about the rocket tag aspect. I suppose I could start merging fights so they're more resource-intensive...
I'm not sure the "rocket tag" aspect can be changed. It's just the nature of the dungeon. Even against battles with multiple bosses, it will never be a good idea to split damage between them. It will always be a bum rush to kill one of them first. Just as an example, let's go through Floor 6, which is ONLY bosses.
Kuja and Garland -> These two generally aren't winning much anyways, but Garland is more than likely the one to kill first, because of Stop.
Cloud of Darkness and Xande -> Bum rush Cloud of Darkness and her arms to prevent Bad Breath, and the fight isn't that complicated beyond that.
Sephiroth and Jenova-Birth -> Kill off Sephiroth before he murders too many people, and laugh at Jenova.
Loki and Surt -> Kill off the one with Might Reinforce, and the other one becomes completely manageable.
Lavos and Queen Zeal (Final Forms) -> Bum rush the Central Bit, and this boss duo suddenly struggles to get any lasting damage together.
Even with bosses, speed will always be the biggest factor. I think the only way you can make a fight resource intensive is against a boss that is, by nature, resource intensive (nothing comes up off the top of my head, but there has to be at least a couple of bosses that have crazy healing, or something?).
And, uhh, just to clarify, I'm not advocating for Rikku's retirement. Just looking at it from Neph's side. ^^;
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Most Breath of Fire 1 bosses, PS4 bosses and a few others (Dragon Quest?) have respectable health pools and are pretty long slogs.
I could also start adding Radiant Historia bosses, who aren't exactly durable (except for Floating Stairs) but do have other tricks.
I'll start going through things.
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If we're trying to make the dungeon less rocket taggy, I had an idea for a floor that could help to de-emphasize status and damage. It should probably be a floor where you can choose between one and another. I chose Cloud for this because he has fairly decent damage of both flavors and Ultima Weapon is an incentive to keep him healed up.
Escort Floor:
For this Floor, the party will be joined by Cloud from FF7. He will have his DL setup of Ultima Weapon along with a mastered Ice and Bolt materia. Additionally for this floor, Cloud is the only one who can directly damage enemies. The team can help out in any way they can by buffing Cloud, enchanting his weapon, debuffing enemies and making sure that Cloud survives, but any attacks they do to the enemy will do 0 damage. The party can directly inflict non-fatal status like Silence or Sleep on the enemy, but fatal statuses such as Petrify or status which inflict damage like Poison will not work. The team will lose if Cloud is incapacitated in such a way that the team can not bring him back (such as KO'd with no revival remaining or petrified with no status healing).
I haven't really thought of what to put on the floor, but I think that someone like Xenobia could be a good fit for the last fight of the floor.
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That's almost a unique enough idea that I could see a tournament based around that.
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Stoic only rikku would pretty much never get an OD. Your full HP is 30% of a stoic bar, IIRC, so unless she were taking a ton of MT attacks that could be healed off, the bar would almost never fill. The standard approach to fighting rikku is already "kill her fast so that no heals can save her, or ignore her".
full reset sounds like the better idea, if only because having an interp call like that floating around is not a good thing.
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Agreed with both points. Stoic is never going to give an OD without healing (full HP is 30% without triple OD, 90% with) unless you allow half-filled limit bars across the board in the dungeon (can't comment on how good an idea that is) and it just changes what the problem is. Full Heal meanwhile is something that there should be a definitive ruling on just for the sake of removing annoying interp calls and making it a full reset or whatever it's going to be termed probably reins in at least some of the silliness.
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Just as a minor note, the reason I see Full Heal = Full Reset is because the "point" of Full Heals in my mind is to make it easy to vote on a match - if the team can limp through the earlier fights somehow, no need to worry about the details, just pretend it's fight 1 again. No Full Heal = don't bother thinking about Fight 4 until you know how much damage the team has sustained in Fights 1-3. (Granted, most dungeon teams these days do have at least 2 revivers so the cases where party members are missing is less common, but resource issues can come up, as do stuff like overdrives.) Note also that Full Heals being a Full Reset sometimes makes dungeon teams stronger - Djinn's old Violent Burst Law team under the VBL wording of the time absolutely allowed Limits to start full again after every single Full Heal to me and most voters, IIRC.
Stoic Rikku is a bit wacky. She still can farm overdrives, but now requires someone with the ability to inflict Berserk in the party & lots of cheap healing.
While rocket tag 24/7 is an issue, I'm not really a huge fan of making resource depletion a huge part of the dungeon if for no other reason than it's something that most people gut check which is very hard to plan around. Which is reasonable! Keeping track of MP usage, which is often quite different from in-game usage, isn't exactly fun. (Fair disclosure: Some of my older teams got votes against on grounds of resource depletion when I'd run the numbers and seen that I was pretty much guaranteed fine even given 2x HP respect to enemy teams and the like. And I'm sure the reverse has happened as well where people forgot that there wasn't enough MP to go around and voted pass regardless. It's not something the human computer is that great at.)
I agree that it'd be nice to throw more status-immune PCs into the mix, the problem is doing it in a way that isn't artificial. There are only so many interesting status-immunes to go around, after all, and some of them ram into interp-splits (S3 / S5 Yellow Scarves, VP1 all-status blockers that some see as just hitting 1 status of choice and can break, etc.). Throwing Gilder, Karin, etc. type characters everywhere might make 'em feel overused.
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Just for reference, the following DL PCs immune a large majority of status in their home games and are decent choices for anti-status tanks in the dungeon, aside from bosses.
Nina3, Momo, Nina4, the Chrono Trigger cast, Thursday, Worker 8, Elena (G2), Alfina, Demi, Wren, Saga Frontier mecs, Red, Thunder, Karin, Gilder (does it for entire team).
In addition there are Xenogears, Suikoden 3, Suikoden 5, Radiant Historia, and Mana Khemia which can do it with certain accessories although as Snowfire alludes to these run into more interp difficulties on average (I don't actually know too many people who give the Suikodens blanket status immunity). VP1's is even less allowed on average.
Of course various other casts have access to a good array of blockers (such as FF7 and VP2) but can't necessarily block everything at once in the same way.
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Pokemon from gen 2 on can give the team status immunity as well with Safeguard. It's not initiative like Gilder's, but it lasts for a few turns instead of just one. (As a bonus, Butterfree learns safeguard so you can drop a Speed? sealstone on it and get a fast status whore who can make your team immune to status for .5 points!)
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Some point value shuffling, none of this is set in stone but I'm leaning towards "Yes."
Benjamin to 2.5
Citan to 2.5
Ivan to 2.5 (or just remove, no one's used him)
Nina1 to 2.5
Shadow to 2.5 (Did any of you even know he was still there?)
Ryu1 to 2.5
Nel to 2.0
Cecil to 2.0
Popoi to 2.0
Ninja to 2.0 or 1.5, leaning 2.0. Reasons: Ramza is a 3.0 and Ninja... shouldn't be that close to him.
Chemist to 2.0 - Same as above.
Misturu to 1.5 (or just removed)
FFT Oracle getting axed - No one picks her.
Beowulf to 1.0 - Something something no one picks him.
Ayla to 1.5 - She's not a very good 2.0.
Marle to 1.0 " " 1.5
I was considering dropping Raja back to 1.0 but not allowing the Speed stone to work on him. I don't know if that's too janky of a change.
Also, here are some Sealstone Updates:
Love Love - Damage is increased by 50% against same-sex targets and reduced by 50% against different-sex targets. This applies only to the allied team. (No longer affects enemies, make an all female team today!!!)
Firefly - The first single target attack of each enemy will be redirected at the bearer of this sealstone. Multi-target attacks are not affected. (No longer affects MT targets, this is not a grandfathered change)
Violent Burst Law - Characters with system-specific gauges begin the floor with them filled. These gauges do not charge during the floor by any other means. Your gauges are not reset when passing through Full Heals. (New change for the Full Heal modification)
Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, but reduces the final effect of any healing to 75%. (This means full healing is always 75%) The healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle. This Sealstone may only be placed on characters with healing spells or abilities. (You can't put it on people without healing abilities)
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Most of those changes LGTM. Benjamin at 2.5 is a little scary but probably acceptable given how much people realize speed is the god stat these days and Benjamin being maybe below average, maybe above average depending on how you take MQ averages. Citan is also a bit scary, but eh, he's strong but ultimately fair, and at 3.0 & above you start having a lot of unfair abilities which Citan lacks.
FFT Ninja strikes me as way above the curve for 1.5, and is a reasonably solid choice at 2.0 (Crono with more ST damage but no revival).
Hurray for Ayla & Marle going down in price, they needed it.
Popoi is cool but Change Form is only quasi-legal, right? Did it kill the XP gain? Probably acceptable to reduce his cost since if people don't allow it, lacking a rarely immuned MT Transform effect makes him worse in the later floors.
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I wouldn't see Change Form working in the Dungeon.
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I'd drop Nina4 to a 2.5 as well. She's really not worth 3.0.
Edit: When you say "this is not a grandfathered change" with regards to the Firefly sealstone, is this change going to be enforced with the team I have in right now or just for the teams that are already made but haven't been in yet?
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The latter. That's what I meant by it not being grandfathered -- You wouldn't be penalized since yours was in before I made the change.
Nina4... mm, I could see it. Anyone else have opinions on that one?
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Nina 4 is worthy of a 3 when the full skillset is there, I think (MT Healing, solid revival, awesome speed, status immunity, quite physically hardy for a healer, passable MT damage, Mdef buff). I don't really remember how her skillset develops (I've looked at her as a passable choice for a 3 though). She compares decently enough to Aeonless Yuna, Jerin and Nina 1 by the end.
Certainly no to Ninja at 1.5.
Beowulf...doesn't necessarily like he needs to go down, but rocket tag could make it valid. He's good (and basically starts pretty full), but yeah, the speed is probably why.
Proposed axes are fine. Mitsuru is really select (Have her resist her or she's a horrible choice) and Ivan is really complex.
Everyone else seems generally okay.
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I think that Nina1 is the stronger of the two in all aspects but damage and even there Nina4 doesn't really excel. Nina1 might have the edge in terms of skillset and the speed advantage doesn't mean much since most of Nina1's stuff is initiative. I remember that someone found out that BoF4 defense was really important so Nina4's physical durability wasn't that good even with the resist and her healing skills are really expensive at times. Yuna is definitely harder to kill because of her evasion and she get's better damage at the end and Jerin has better resources and better buffs.
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I'm completely against removing characters unless they're broken. If nobody's used them, either leave them there (no harm in doing so) or try to change the value to make them viable. No need to remove someone entirely, though - just limits options if you do.
(Also, idly, fairly sure Djinn used Ivan when he first showed up. I remember hating having to vote on him.)
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Nina4 has solid MT damage starting floor 2 and going up to floor 5 -in addition- to her amazing healing skillset, and I don't think I need to tell why MT damage off high speed rules in the dungeon (even bad MT damage -helps-), and that's something Nina1 will never ever get to contribute with (Jerin can, but Jerin has a bigger rut on her healing and doesn't have the equipment options). She loses in durability, but wins pretty hard at that niche. Not to mention she has better effective durability than Nina1 (better evade and mdur, comparable pdur), gets MT healing earlier... not to mention Nina4's healing is only expensive if you're insanely inefficient. Rejuvenate is basically full healing for the whole game and that's cheap as -fuck-, and Heal itself is full healing until Rejuvenate kicks in. Vigor is complete overkill for MT healing, the works. She is decidedly worse than Jerin, I want to say, but considering Jerin is one of Heavy's best healer slots to have, I really can't say that's a bad place to be in.
I'd be in favor of removing Ivan simply because how many dungeon voters even played GS -and- have the energy to wade through his inane complexity? Otherwise, he just sits there.
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Ivan was also someone Djinn suggested in the first place, so it comes as little surprise to me that he used him.
The others I can see leaving alone... maybe just drop Mitsuru half a point.
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I'm completely against removing characters unless they're broken. If nobody's used them, either leave them there (no harm in doing so) or try to change the value to make them viable. No need to remove someone entirely, though - just limits options if you do.
(Also, idly, fairly sure Djinn used Ivan when he first showed up. I remember hating having to vote on him.)
If someone pulls poor voting numbers, that's a pretty good reason to remove them I'd think. Remember, for the actual teammates it's not good enough to just check a stat topic... you also have to roughly know how the character functions at various points of the game. So yeah, Ivan sounds a little questionable between his complexity and (I would assume, though am admittedly not certain) GS probably being one of the lower-played games among dungeon voters.
Beowulf's another one of those oddities... in-game he joins with no skillset at all and has to start picking it up on floor 5ish. Would that mean he has almost no skillset until then in the dungeon? Surely not if he's a 1.5. I guess it's assumed Beowulf has been sharked in and starts picking up JP immediately at Level 1, which is fine but not completely true to in-game.
I think that Nina1 is the stronger of the two in all aspects but damage and even there Nina4 doesn't really excel. Nina1 might have the edge in terms of skillset and the speed advantage doesn't mean much since most of Nina1's stuff is initiative. I remember that someone found out that BoF4 defense was really important so Nina4's physical durability wasn't that good even with the resist and her healing skills are really expensive at times. Yuna is definitely harder to kill because of her evasion and she get's better damage at the end and Jerin has better resources and better buffs.
Nina1 has no MT healing, nor MT damage (which as Snow mentioned, helps in sweeping enemies). She also lacks Nina4's eventual status immunity. Yuna also lacks all those things (though her blockers are better than Nina1's at least), though has her own very powerful buffs, some evasion, and incredibly deep resources. My kneejerk is that Nina4 is considerably more valuable than Nina1 and her vs. Yuna would depend on what your team needs.
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I guess it's assumed Beowulf has been sharked in and starts picking up JP immediately at Level 1, which is fine but not completely true to in-game.
This is more or less it in a nutshell, basically it's how Orlandu works too. I fear for how terrible Beo's status might actually be that early on, although I guess it doesn't make a huge difference.
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It wouldn't be any worse actually; stats (besides Faith which doesn't change as the game goes on) have a near-meaningless effect on status accuracy.
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Well okay then!
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I like Ivan, but if none of the other Dungeon voters know him, it doesn't bother me to see him go. One of the main reasons I thought he'd be good was because he's one of the better candidates for the Elemental Sealstone. Without lots of options, it's hard to find a viable team that capitalizes on elements like that.
I also disapprove of changes that make Violent Burst Law worse. :'(
Also, I think with all of the rule changes, I might need to redo my team...
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Love Love - Damage is increased by 50% against same-sex targets and reduced by 50% against different-sex targets. This applies only to the allied team. (No longer affects enemies, make an all female team today!!!)
More sideways, but still present with the same problems. Would it be too broken to suggest that members of the team deal 50% more damage to same-sex targets and take 50% less from different-sex targets?
Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, but reduces the final effect of any healing to 75%. (This means full healing is always 75%) The healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle. This Sealstone may only be placed on characters with healing spells or abilities. (You can't put it on people without healing abilities)
I'm not sure if it got a ruling, but what about healing abilities that are forced MT, but only one person on the team is dead at the time. Would that consume its MT use?
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Love Love - Damage is increased by 50% against same-sex targets and reduced by 50% against different-sex targets. This applies only to the allied team. (No longer affects enemies, make an all female team today!!!)
More sideways, but still present with the same problems. Would it be too broken to suggest that members of the team deal 50% more damage to same-sex targets and take 50% less from different-sex targets?
I'm not sure how that's much different except there are no downsides to it with your interpretation...
Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, but reduces the final effect of any healing to 75%. (This means full healing is always 75%) The healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle. This Sealstone may only be placed on characters with healing spells or abilities. (You can't put it on people without healing abilities)
I'm not sure if it got a ruling, but what about healing abilities that are forced MT, but only one person on the team is dead at the time. Would that consume its MT use?
That is a very niche scenario... I'd probably say it doesn't, but that seems like a very specific scenario that would only come up probably never.
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That is a very niche scenario... I'd probably say it doesn't, but that seems like a very specific scenario that would only come up probably never.
I wouldn't say that's rare at all, really.
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That is a very niche scenario... I'd probably say it doesn't, but that seems like a very specific scenario that would only come up probably never.
I wouldn't say that's rare at all, really.
Yeah, I think it actually happens fairly often. Maybe not on earlier floors, but when you reach floors with bosses that have solid MT, teams sometimes have to choose between going for revival or healing up the rest of the team. I mean, it might not happen very much as is, but if the team in question had the Life sealstone, they would go for the MT healing every time, I'd say.
Off the top of my head, the MT Floor 3, and both versions of Floor 6 have a fair of MT damage going around, and I could for sure see a team using an MT healing spell to do double-duty in these situations.
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Then I will say if you can convince people that only one person is dead, a MT healing spell would bring that one person back with 1 HP and not consume the "MT revival" clause.
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I have made all the point reduction changes. I have not removed anyone.
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Since the last team's gone, just confirming TEAM NULSHOCK~
Yuna [3.0] (NeoSpeed Sealstone)
Demi [3.5]
Yosuke [2.0]
Teddie [1.5]
Yukari [1.0]
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New team! I call it "Team I Threw Together While Waiting In Line".
Scarecrow (2.5)
Aika (2.5)
Robo (1.0)
Cray (1.0)
Citan (2.5)
Nall (1.0)
See if you can guess the theme~
Will take suggestions on team choice and sealstone if anyone has any ideas.
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^^^ Characters Djinn wants to go on dates with.
I am adding Mei-Ling from Saga Frontier and I am removing Blue.
Mei-Ling, Saga Frontier (2.5)
Pros: Starts with Light Magic, guns and several other techniques. Fast character who can dish out damage and heal/revive.
Cons: Glass cannon, thy name be Mei-Ling. Doesn't take hits well and the healing is kind of terrible.
I'm also adding:
Nelis, Suikoden 5 (1.5)
Pros: Relatively durable for a Suikoden magic-user. Gets a lot of spells rather quickly.
Cons: Easily walled element (Fire). Damage and speed are a little bit lower than other Suiko-mages.
I've been considering adding other folks from things like Grandia 3 but allowing more flexability with their builds but that might be worth more trouble than it's worth.
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Neph, have you given any further thought on adding T260G?
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Oh shoot I totally forgot. Yeah, let me do that and come up with a guideline post.
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Also moving Eileen to 2.5.
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^^^ Characters Djinn wants to go on dates with.
I am adding Mei-Ling from Saga Frontier and I am removing Blue.
Mei-Ling, Saga Frontier (2.5)
Pros: Starts with Light Magic, guns and several other techniques. Fast character who can dish out damage and heal/revive.
Cons: Glass cannon, thy name be Mei-Ling. Doesn't take hits well and the healing is kind of terrible.
Mei-ling's durability spread ranges from 81% to 91% average, so "glass cannon" may be going a bit far there. On the other hand she's a bit of a slow starter stat-wise (I believe her HP starts below 100) so this is probably more true early! 2.5 is probably fine though. LightSword's 35+ % chance of parrying physicals aimed at the party is a neat lategame pickup.
Nelis, Suikoden 5 (1.5)
Pros: Relatively durable for a Suikoden magic-user. Gets a lot of spells rather quickly.
Cons: Easily walled element (Fire). Damage and speed are a little bit lower than other Suiko-mages.
I'm not sure who the point of comparison is here, but Nelis' speed is pretty good (same as Zerase). She's pretty much better in every way statistically than Crowley (outside his ST damage win on the first floor or two) but without the versatility and with a more wallable element. She might be a bit abusable at 1.5... that's a hell of a lot of MT damage off above average speed for that score. It really depends how big a drawback being fire-reliant is in the dungeon.
I've been considering adding other folks from things like Grandia 3 but allowing more flexability with their builds but that might be worth more trouble than it's worth.
Do it, the dungeon doesn't have nearly enough plane crashes.
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I'm not sure who the point of comparison is here, but Nelis' speed is pretty good (same as Zerase). She's pretty much better in every way statistically than Crowley (outside his ST damage win on the first floor or two) but without the versatility and with a more wallable element. She might be a bit abusable at 1.5... that's a hell of a lot of MT damage off above average speed for that score. It really depends how big a drawback being fire-reliant is in the dungeon.
I'll put her at 2.5 to start then, do you think that would work better?
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Maybe! You should probably let someone with a better familiarity for the floors and what does/doesn't work make that call.
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I personally think that Nelis at 1.5 is -insanely- abusable and I should've given her a base score to work with. I think 2.5 works for her, although I now have to wonder what does Geddoe do that she doesn't do almost as well -at least- (no OHKO damage, but she more or less almost always 2HKO off MT damage she has a lot of charges of, and her MT damage has comparable speed to his OHKO, and she has more charges and more MT... I can't help but think he could go down a bit with the comparison, even though he has more durability). Oh well.
EDIT: No matter what, good MT damage off speed that doesn't suck is always insanely valuable in the dungeon, and Nelis more or less fills the niche from the get-go. Not to mention she has very good magical durability and her physical durability isn't a liability. She has no truly easily exploitable stat failings in the Dungeon - even with the easily walled element, that's worth a lot of points, especially considering the source of damage (magical damage >>>> physical in the dungeon).
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I would be fine with moving Geddoe to 2.5.
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I think it works. Geddoe's MT damage is faster and he's more durable and he has a OHKO option that doesn't fly for Nelis outside of a single floor window at most, but more wallable element (SOMEHOW) and less resources. It balances, since floor 3-5 are basically places where Geddoe just fucking OHKOs shit because Thunder Storm off an A+ at C3 is just sick.
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Removing Blue? Man, I was totally planning to prove CK wrong when he said that every Blue team would be beaten before it got anywhere, though. :(
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Removing Blue? Man, I was totally planning to prove CK wrong when he said that every Blue team would be beaten before it got anywhere, though. :(
ha-ha </Nelson>
Seriously, I'd give cookies to anyone who actually -managed- to do it.
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Here are a couple more ideas:
Orlandu to 3.5 (He's good, but... eh, I dunno if he has the same punch as the other 4.0s anymore)
FF5 Blue Mage to 3.0 (No one uses him)
Mew to 2.5 (^^^)
Serge to 2.5 (^^^)
Angelo to 2.0
Amarant to 1.5
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Also, here's a (tentative) post on how T260 will work.
Will have forms 2-6 available for floors 1-6, then Form 7 available on... floor 7. Amazing.
NEB provided me with a list of difficulty rates for the various skills, I will interpret them as based on floor. If you have a certain body on the floor where the difficulty matches, you will get those skills.
For example:
CombatMastery
TYPE 1 | 13 (Floor 1)
TYPE 3 | 21 (Floor 3)
TYPE 6 | 22 (Floor 3)
TYPE 8 | 24 (Floor 4, but irrelevant because it's body type 8)
This isn't a great example because you're always going to have T260 as Type 1 for Floor 1, but you'll always get CombatMastery there.
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FF5 Blue Mage already is a 3.0....
Mew, the main asterisk there is that I'd recommend requiring teams using Mew must list the 4 skills he has as part of going to the next floor, and clear that these skills are TM-able by that floor. Voting / research headache if Mew just has some suggested slots, but can theoretically have others.
Serge I'd just say kill. Yuck CC in the dungeon.
Angelo at 2.0 works I think. Amarant is probably safe at 1.5.
As another comment... this is probably "working as intended," but Ditto w/ Quick Powder is a very strong 0.5. He's shown up a lot of teams and has turned more matches than usual for a 0.5. Granted, Ditto is an *interesting* 0.5, and having a character who isn't relevant until turn 2 matter in the dungeon is certainly cool. Just for 0.5 points, teams that can survive round 1 have a lot more flexibility in round 2, including stealing great enemy skills. Don't think he'd be a great 1.0, and denying Quick Powder would just make him go back to being utterly terrible, but just throwing that out there.
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I meant 2.5 for Blue Mage.
Also, here's a link to T260's stuff. http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php/Robot_Stuff
As for Ditto, I might force him to use the Metal Powder instead. I dunno.
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I don't think I agree with a difficulty 13 skill being floor 1, but it doesn't matter because CombatMastery is useless before you get PluralSlash/ShockSoldier/Popknight anyway!
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I don't see what's wrong with CC in the Dungeon?
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Oh, yeah, T260 is in at a 4.0.
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As for Ditto, I might force him to use the Metal Powder instead. I dunno.
Forcing the Metal Powder on Ditto will probably really make him a 0.5, since he's likely giving up TWO turns without the Quick Powder. It's very likely that the majority of enemy teams act before Ditto even gets to Transform if he has the Metal Powder.
As a 1.0, I think Ditto with Quick Powder would still be a viable option. He's not an instant gimme anymore, but he's shown in the Dungeon that he can be worth a full point.
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So, in the name of teams with totally dumb strats to come up with, I present:
Souji + Ginny + ACF Ceci(Neospeed) + Ditto + FFT PRIEST
The dumb strat I'm planing? Ginny uses VALIANT on Souji who uses MT PHYSICALS THAT HURT HIMSELF TO BOOST VALIANT DAMAGE, and then ACF Ceci command Replays Souji SO HE DOES IT AGAIN and HURTS HIMSELF SOME MORE FOR MORE DEEPS, meanwhile I have ditto and priest flail about for lulz, clearly this plan can't go wrong.
Slightly more serious strats include having potentially 3 people that can flat out wall some fights, Ginny and to a lesser extent Souji and Ditto can all be evade whores which ACF Cecilia can boost to levels of trolol because she starts with a mt 50% boost to evade buff, alternatively there is acf Cecilia spitting on mage floors with starting mt reflect.
So yeah, team of whorish whores plus priest or something.
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As for Ditto, I might force him to use the Metal Powder instead. I dunno.
Forcing the Metal Powder on Ditto will probably really make him a 0.5, since he's likely giving up TWO turns without the Quick Powder. It's very likely that the majority of enemy teams act before Ditto even gets to Transform if he has the Metal Powder.
As a 1.0, I think Ditto with Quick Powder would still be a viable option. He's not an instant gimme anymore, but he's shown in the Dungeon that he can be worth a full point.
It's a possibility.
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Djinn: Okay being slightly unfair there. It's mostly CC bosses that are giant headaches in the dungeon which is why they're never used. Serge & Riddel are better, just there's still some weirdness with how they spend their turns, does having better vitality regen = better speed, etc. I'd probably force all CC characters to be average speed and spend every turn with combo->element, and not get any faster for skipping the element, but it can go a number of ways.
That said Serge is probably safe to drop to 2.5 unless he has some really broken element I'm forgetting.
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I don't see what's wrong with CC in the Dungeon?
Actually, CC PCs just aren't amazing as a dungeon pick. The resource replenishment is kinda cool, but the game's system just doesn't do them favors when it comes to Dungeoning in general. I didn't even know Serge was a dungeon pick, though! <__________<
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I'm at work during a slow day and I'm bored out of my mind, so naturally I'm
dating pigeons making Dungeon teams.
Team "Wait Firefly isn't awesome again anymore"
T260G (4.0), Nelis (2.5), Lucian and Shiho (3.0), Yukari (1.5) [Body Charge on Yukari]
Modus operandi: T2 tanks the hell out of shit first turn while Nelis and Yukari try to kill everything with MT as long as they don't get elementally walled/instaowned. Lucian and Shiho provide ST offense and more healing/buffs. Having only one truly reliable healer is going to suck and this team probably can't deal with very prolonged slogs, but oh well. Also, Crono owns my ass so bad.
Team "March of the Supervillainesses"
Miakis (4.0), Mei-ling (2.5), Hildagarde Valentine (3.0), Mint (0.5), Aeris (1.0) [Body Charge Sealstone on Hilda]
No real rhyme or reason other than having girls and Mei-ling (alternatively, call it team "Mei-ling's Koorong Prostitution Ring" and wince). EDIT: It just hit me that Body Charge Hilda is actually kind of a goodish idea, though.
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In addition to the earlier suggestions, I have a few more.
Demi to 3.0 (Hasn't been used in a while, but I think she's not as good at 3.5)
Ryu2 to 3.0 (^^^)
Toadstool to 2.5 (She's good, but... ehh.)
Nina2 to 1.5
Ronfar to 1.0
Ditto to 1.0, always gets Quick Powder (I think he's too good for .5 but not an amazing 1.0? A Raja problem.)
Speaking of Raja, I'll drop him back to 1.0 but ask people not to use Speed? on him :(
Oh, any opinion on changing Gastly to Gengar and bumping him up a tier or two?
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Ronfar needs to go to 0.5. Strictly worse healer than Jessica? >_>
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That is certainly doable as well.
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Ronfar needs to go to 0.5. Strictly worse healer than Jessica? >_>
He's slower, but his MT healing is much better than Jessica's. His is something like 60-70% maybe even higher while hers is something like 30-40%. He also gets revival much earlier than she does and he gets MT status healing. As for the other changes, I'm not a fan of the Toadstool change. I think she's fine as a 3.0, she has some of the cheapest healing in the dungeon and a really good shutdown status option as well. I also think Nina2 is fine as a 2.0.
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Ronfar's MT status healing is floor 7 and being both slower and frailer are just too damning. I could argue both are too high at anything above a 0.5 myself, but Jessica has a case for a 1.0 (some durability tricks like regen equips and the sleep option aren't much, but are helpful). Ronfar? Hell, he's a worse healer than -Mint-.
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I'd argue the MT status healing is floor 8 myself. (Not that this really matters.) It's 3-4 levels above the stat topic level IIRC, I certainly only got it in the postgame.
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Ronfar needs to go to 0.5. Strictly worse healer than Jessica? >_>
I also think Nina2 is fine as a 2.0.
I'm not so sure myself. Below average speed and Aht-tastic durability spread? Eeeeeew.
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Ronfar's MT status healing is floor 7 and being both slower and frailer are just too damning. I could argue both are too high at anything above a 0.5 myself, but Jessica has a case for a 1.0 (some durability tricks like regen equips and the sleep option aren't much, but are helpful). Ronfar? Hell, he's a worse healer than -Mint-.
He's a bit slower but at endgame Jessica's durability edge is fairly minor and before that I'd say that Ronfar has the edge before that because Lucia is the fifth party member instead of Leo who has gamebest HP and defense by a good amount so the def and HP averages would be quite a bit lower. As Dhyer pointed out earlier, Jessica gets her revival stuff fairly late whereas Ronfar gets his first revival spell around Floor 3. I'd say that they're both better than Mint because Mint takes so long to get her good healing and their damage at least registers for some points in the dungeon.
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In fairness, Mint is very much a spike-and-slump healer. First Aid is trash, Heal gets quickly outdated... granted, Heal gets outdated when she gets Nurse, which is floor 3 and for the duration of the floor is like MT full healing and holy fuck it's hax. Floor 4, it dwindles, but she gets Cure and now can properly ST heal for the rest of the game (she also gets Silence, but who cares about ST silence). And then floor 5 Nurse just kinda sucks and she doesn't get much there (well, Valkyrie is a good MT physical damage boost), and she doesn't get her MT full healing until floor 6. And the revival is floor 7... but I digress. Regardless, the big big deal regarding Mint is really the adequate durability+near-inexhaustible resource pool combo. Lategame, she even gets elemental walling options, which helps some. After accounting for scoring, she's really a much better pick than Ronfar will ever be - I'd choose her over EBC Ronfar even at 0.5 for the sheer resource depth and better team flexibility.
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Yeah, worst that can happen is everyone starts using Ronfar too much. That MT full-revival move is potentially pretty badass depending on how rigged the coin flip is, but not sure anyone ever did any tests. (It's better than a 50% chance I want to say, but there's a big difference between a 60% chance and a 90% chance.)
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Just a stray observation that could help someone build their team, as it stands right now there's a ton of high powered single element offense in the 2.5-1.5 area. There's a ton of potential offense in those picks for relatively little cost which could really help a blitzing team or just raise a team's offense in general. The Elemental Penetration sealstone hasn't been used much, but it seems like now could be a good time for it to have a breakout performance.
Here's a few of the characters that have good MT offense and could really benefit from using that sealstone:
2.5: Eileen, Geddoe, Mei-Ling (kinda due to SF elemental oddness), Nelis, Sasarai
2.0: Crono, Crowley, Nash, White Rose, Yosuke
1.5: Hellion, Luca, Mitsuru, Yukiko
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In addition to the earlier suggestions, I have a few more.
Demi to 3.0 (Hasn't been used in a while, but I think she's not as good at 3.5)
Ryu2 to 3.0 (^^^)
Toadstool to 2.5 (She's good, but... ehh.)
Nina2 to 1.5
Ronfar to 1.0
Ditto to 1.0, always gets Quick Powder (I think he's too good for .5 but not an amazing 1.0? A Raja problem.)
Speaking of Raja, I'll drop him back to 1.0 but ask people not to use Speed? on him :(
Oh, any opinion on changing Gastly to Gengar and bumping him up a tier or two?
Ryu2 and Demi to 3.0 I'm fine with. Toadstool to 2.5, I'm less fine because that's -way- too cheap for MT full healing that also heals status for mad cheap off solid speed and that starts getting other insanity by floor 4. Toadstool carries her price as is just fine. Lower her any and she just becomes abusable.
Also, Neph, have you pondered having MESARTHIM in the Dungeon? =3
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Elemental Penetration also got buffed to only affect the opponent's team, so you can pick someone like Eiko now and get your Holy offense and stilll enjoy FF9 elemental resist cheese on your side. So yeah, some very good options for that now.
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Also, Neph, have you pondered having MESARTHIM in the Dungeon? =3
Write me up something for her and I will add her, but what makes her any different from White Rose? The Life Rain skill? I could probably just switch them...
Also: Understood on Toadstool, will leave her at 3.0.
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Their stats are a bit different and they have two different magic schools. Mesarthim is faster and gets Rune magic while White Rose gets Light. White Rose will end up with better damage, but Mesarthim's support options probably make her worth more points. She's probably a 3.0 or so. I think they're different enough to use both and the Mystic magic skillset is neat enough that I wouldn't mind having two characters who have it at different point costs.
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Life Rain is one hell of a start, yes. Mesarthim also has durability and Rune Magic support cheese over WR. On the other hand, WR has considerably more damage and has more or less no-strings-attached healing (Life Rain is crazy badass, but LP concerns matter in the dungeon some). White Rose makes a better crowd control friend, Mesarthim makes a better team player. I honestly think Mes is worth more than WR overall. They're actually not terribly similar!
Anyhow.
Mesarthim
Pros: Life Raaaaaaaaaaaain. MT full (or almost!) healing+revival available off the bat is just that damn good. Durability and speed also don't disappoint and Rune Magic gives her a reasonable array of team-friendly skills. Affordable multi-target offense that starts pretty good!
Cons: Life Rain has LP limitations and doesn't work on Mesarthim herself. Rune Magic also has a few issues and the damage never gets any better.
2.0/2.5 feels like a reasonable score for her. She's kind of a weird-ass Jeigan jack-of-all-trades.
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I'm fine with 2.5, we can see how she does there. I will probably implement most of the changes later today.
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I was wondering if people thought Aerith might have become less effective as a slot due to the new ruling on Full Heal. If I have it right before some people used to see Full Heals are filling gauges rather than resetting them and characters like Aerith would have a limit to use after every full heal. Since limits are such a big part of her game I'm wondering how much this effects her now really~
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It hurts her, but she was always a pretty low-impact pick. 1.0s and all that jazz.
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/me nodnods~
Yeah just trying to justify her slot on my team which doesn't seem to be much more than ST healing off average to below speed/durability and hoping the enemies will avoid using MT attacks to avoid triggering limits and/or hoping limits will come up which is less likely than ever >_>
Mmm Body Charge can't be used on 3.0s right?
Edit - Mmkay
Alternatives - Fang/(Speed?)Peppita/Vanille/White Rose/Aerith to
Snow/Peppita/Vanille/White Rose/Meru - Body Charge (on White Rose to start)
Fang (Speed?)/Peppita/Vanille/White Rose/????? (wait, wait Fang/Peppita/Vanille/White Rose/Mime (Body Charge locked)!?
Fang/Peppita/Vanille/Cray/Rena - Body Charge (Cray/Rena to start?)
Fang/Peppita/Vanille/Rena - Tear/Jessica/Beecham/Frog/Marle/Robo/Mallow/Adray/Mime - Body Charge
Mrmm I kind of want to fit Mesa in there some way too now >_> Perhaps instead of WR but I dunno.
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You can use it on 3.0s.
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Tentative placeholder second team
Yuna
Garnet
Citan
Yosuke
Time Mage
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Made all the spoken about changes.
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Go ye heroes, go and die.
Jerin (3.0)
Billy (2.5) (Neo Speed Sealstone)
Eileen (2.5)
Kyra (2.0)
Raynie (1.0)
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Since I saw it in CK's tournament, would anyone still like to see Whimsicott? I think it'd make a really interesting 1.0 or something... its durability is pretty bad but Tailwind and Prankster are great. I'm not sure what the overall effect of Prankster is, does that mean all buffs / debuffs (in Pokemon) have what amounts to initiative?
EDIT: Also, does it work on everything? I.e. Growl (a debuff), Defense Curl (a buff), Confuse Ray (Status), Recover (Healing)?
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I was responsible for Whimsicott appearing there, and would definitely love to see it here. It's got pretty bad durability, low damage and the status isn't particularly fantastic, but Tailwind is amazing support and having +1 initiative to everything is insane in the DL. (In-game, it puts most non-status moves at the same level as things like Quick Attack. In the DL? That's basically initiative actions, but losing to other initiative, I'd guess.) It'd be best with some TMs, which.. I can try to throw a list together for? That would almost certainly push it to a 1.5, since it gets some very notable tricks there. (Taunt and Trick Room stand out, although Trick Room doesn't get priority from Prankster.)
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Go right ahead.
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I'd say he's a 2.0 at least. Initiative Tailwind is too good for anything lower. Helping Hand and Cotton Spore get initiative as well and are good moves for working in a team.
To Neph: I'd think it works on all of those. Serebii says it works on all "status category moves" which are essentially all non damaging moves.
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Yeah, then that would bump him up a little bit more... even with the terrible durability. 2.0 is probably good since that's where Jane is.
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Since we're talking adding stuff to the Dungeon, we totally need S4 Jeane for 1.5 overkill damage goodness.
(Actually remotely serious)
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Since we're talking adding stuff to the Dungeon, we totally need S4 Jeane for 1.5 overkill damage goodness.
(Actually remotely serious)
You have Ted.
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Yeah, but he costs double and has speed.
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Random team idea based on the existence of Jeane:
Deis
Kanji
Jeane
Chrono
WhiteRose
Elemental Sealstone
Nothing can go wrong.
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Hot on the heels of more point reduction...
Jessica to 3.0
Scias to 2.5
Claude to 1.5 (pear into peaches)
Everyone else seems to be in a pretty decent spot in terms of point values. Once Yoshi finishes the Whimsicott stuff I'll add it.
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Scias and Claude drops are good. I think Jessica's buffs make her a bit too good to be a 3.0 though. As it stands now she kind of like Deis2 with less MT damage and no ID, but she has a wider variety of buffs and Magic Burst can take out a fight. Her as a 3.0 also steps on the toes of Ryu2 a bit as well.
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That's a good point. I could always drop Ryu2, of course!! (no don't that is a bad idea mr. president)
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On one hand, nobody's used Jessica but me IIRC. On the other hand, Jessica is basically a pick if you're trying to "win" the dungeon. She's solid damage & buff support with speed that also gets full-revival on Floor 6, and is probably a decent 3.0 on those merits... but Magic Burst is really valuable in the late dungeon because there are totally hax fights that are not winnable via fair means on Floors 8-10, but Jessica can Magic Burst through a good number of them anyway. (And even has MP-regen to do it again given enough time.) So teams that want to imagine getting to Floor 10 will want some way of doing something tremendously unfair at high speed, and Jessica is one of your options for that, and your pickings are somewhat slim in this category, which renders them a bit more valuable than they might look. (Feena was in my last team for this purpose too - blowing a Time Gate off good speed is another example of how to potentially survive a crazy fight.)
Could go either way, really.
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Whimsicott list!
Floor 1 - Absorb, Growth, Leech Seed, Mega Drain, Cotton Spore
Floor 2 - Stun Spore, Razor Leaf, Gust
Floor 3 - Poisonpowder, Giga Drain, Charm, Return, Frustration, Safeguard, Tailwind, Light Screen
Floor 4 - Helping Hand, Energy Ball, Cotton Guard, Sunny Day
Floor 5 - Endeavor, Solarbeam, Hurricane
Floor 6 - Giga Impact, Hyper Beam
Floor 7/8 (Non-storebought TMs) - Dream Eater, Grass Knot, Swagger, U-Turn, Substitute, Trick Room, Flash, Rest, Attract, Thief, Round, Energy Ball, Fling, Facade, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Double Team, Hidden Power, Taunt, Toxic
F8+ (Egg Moves) - Natural Gift, Encore, Tickle, Fake Tears, Grasswhistle, Memento, Beat Up, Switcheroo, Worry Seed
Given that, by F3, Whimsicott is capable of Light Screen, Tailwind, Safeguard, Cotton Spore, Stun Spore or Charm, I can definitely see it being a 2.5 or even a 3.0. Incredible status and support options and some fantastic variety, but it's quite frail and has a few major weaknesses. (Primarily Fire/Ice/Wind)
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Whimsicott has been added at 2.5.
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You might want to change up the description a bit because it's kind of misleading. Whimsicott doesn't actually have any healing besides Leech Seed and some terrible parasitic damage. It also might be a good idea to mention that his damage is really bad in his cons list.
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But Prankster affects other people's healing, right?
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It only effects Whimsicott's attacks. If it affected everyone that would probably make Whimsicott a 3.5 or 4.0 pick.
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Oh, I see. I'll fix that in that case.
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You might want to change up the description a bit because it's kind of misleading. Whimsicott doesn't actually have any healing besides Leech Seed and some terrible parasitic damage. It also might be a good idea to mention that his damage is really bad in his cons list.
Whimsicott actually has some decent damage/parasitic healing, thanks to the Giga Drain buff in Gen5. It's below average, definitely, but not by much.
But yeah, on the whole, Whimsicott is kinda like Songstress, only trading lategame ridiculous for earlier buffs, and entirely ST in exchange for.. well, being cheaper and actually having some damage.
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So with the team down here's the breakdown on how each member performed.
Cecilia: Ceci's kinda of hard to place in the dungeon because she has everything...except the things that the dungeon values most like damage. The speed is a huge issue throughout which really highlights how important above average speed is. Ceci in general isn't that slow, but in the fights where it mattered, it felt that she was being outsped more often than not. Her healing is worse than it seems and it seems that for a good while the only thing she has is status and some pretty good anti magic stuff.
Ramza: Ramza is pretty great. Auto Potion is groat throughout and he has a couple of options that give him good damage. His biggest problem is that most of these setups make him frail and he lacks reliable MT unless you make some big time investments in Calculator or something. Ditto turned into him the most by far and as a result makes him a clear choice for MVP.
Kyra: Kyra's is really effective at a 2.0. She's versatile without being overpowering and has a couple fantastic PS4 buffs and debuffs. Resources never felt like an issue either. She also really highlighted just how much of a difference being above average speed makes to being just below. It felt like Kyra didn't get out sped nearly as often as Ceci despite a relatively minor speed difference.
Worker 8: If it weren't for Firefly, Worker 8 probably wouldn't be worth it at all. He was usually too slow to do anything aside from take hits. Magic immunity is of course pretty great though and immunity to most elements was a hilarious bonus for the VP boss fight. As a stand alone pick, it doesn't feel like he contributes much aside from maybe finishing off a fight against pure magic users.
Ditto: It felt like the Worker 8/ Firefly combo probably helped Ditto the most as it does a good job of countering his biggest disadvantage of not being productive till the second round.
Final thoughts: So my goal was to see if a defensive team could be successful and overall it's hard to say. The team made it to floor seven which can be considered decently successful, but it felt like for a fair amount of time that was due to the Worker 8/Firefly combo carrying the team on it's back. Despite being designed as a defensive team, it still felt like for most of the time the best strategy was to blitz as well as they could on the Firefly turn rather than buff up and slowly overwhelm. As a result, it feels like I could have had more success if I had sacrificed dropped Ceci and maybe Kyra for some characters with more offensive potential. I do have another idea for a defensive team that'd I'd like to try based more on sheer durability than buffing and if that doesn't work I'll just go back to blitz teams.
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Do you think Worker needs to go down in price? I could see 1.5 working for him due to, as you've said, his actual presence doesn't do much.
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Do you think Worker needs to go down in price? I could see 1.5 working for him due to, as you've said, his actual presence doesn't do much.
I don't know. I think he's fine at 2.0. Keep in mind, he makes some battles, and even some entire floors, easy to pass. Magic immunity is big, and his physical durability and damage are pretty good. I don't know if being pretty slow is enough reason to make him drop in price.
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I think Worker can go down in price safely so long as he gets a "please don't use Firefly with me" or some kind of price hike if Firefly is on him. 7 FFT endgame speed is sloooooooooooooooooooow and being a tank helps most if you can solo then revive, which W8 can't. Sure, Thief Hat doesn't exist until Floor 6, so he's marginally better on the earlier floors (although not TOO much, Flash Hat exists too). But speed is still the god stat in the Dungeon, and W8 will rarely be able to exercise much offense. Compare him with FF1 Knight or SO2 Claude at 1.5 - they're both averagey speed (maybe a tad fast for Claude since mage casting is slow) but Claude has killer damage and Knight has insane durability. W8's got Knight's durability and the magic immunity trick, but has restrictions on healing him, no RUSE cheese, and did I mention he is super-slow. It's bad when it's not clear if Ghaleon or Worker 8 should go first since W8 is slower than the slowest member of the Lunar cast, and his poor speed can result in getting doubled when Ghaleon's can't.
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Even Flash Hat is obtained at the 70-72% mark of the game which is either floor 5 or 6 depending on how you interpret things, I'd think. Before that he's only competing with the Green Beret which even many hat-users may not be using (since boosts to MA, MP, PA, and HP are all concerns). Still yeah, he's certainly always slow.
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I think it's safe for Worker 8 to go down. As Snowfire mentions, FF1 Knight is a fare comparison and Knight beats Worker in most cases aside from the magic and elemental immunity.
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I personally think 1.5 is too cheap for Worker 8. His durability means he doesn't care how slow he is; all he's doing is dishing out damage anyways. He doesn't have healing, or buffs, or anything which would make good speed a necessity. Anyone that takes Worker 8 also takes someone w/ Item healing anyways. We've had other characters that were priced higher for their team potential rather than their individual potential.
And, not to mention the magic AND elemental immunity, Worker 8 is also immune to status effects (except Confusion, apparently, but even then, it would need to be applied physically).
There's just so few ways to actually take down Worker 8. Literally the only option is powerful non-elemental physical damage, which is admittedly not rare, but it also runs into a 70% chance of counters. FF1 Knight is one hell of a tank, too, but there's more ways to get around his tankiness; namely, status. Even if the rest of the team is dead by floor 4, Worker 8 is one of the few characters who can actually solo a battle and win the floor for his team.
But that's just my two cents. If we decide to put Worker 8 down to 1.5, that'll just give me more incentive to use him again. =P
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So Defensive Team Take 2 Durability Edition:
Zalmo (3.0)
Citan (2.5)
Cecil (2.0)
Snow (2.0)
Knight (1.5)
Status Symbol Law
Whereas the last team was meant to be difficult to kill after they had buffed, this team is designed to start out difficult to kill and get even more difficult as the fight wears on. The basic idea originated when I wanted to try out a Zalmo team and figured that he would work best with characters with big HP scores who he could revive back to full indefinitely while wearing down other teams. Zalmo of course brings the consistent and largely infinite healing backed up by 3x PCHP. I think that a lot of fights will have trouble taking out just one member of the team and with Zalmo's slightly below average speed he can revive whoever was taken out back to full or just spread 80% MTish healing around from his 3-4 PCHP after MP Switch.
Citan brings a bit more healing off of blistering speed and the option to haste up the team as well to help overwhelm enemy healing teams. His high early stats will help the team get a foothold early on and lategame he still has solid damage.
Cecil is the one pick that I'm a bit uncertain on. Lategame his damage and speed aren't too great but they're better early and if nothing else he brings a little extra emergency healing as well as Protect and Shell which are both pretty good.
FF13 characters are a neat combo with SSL because with the role bonuses they can help to mitigate SSL's effects. Aside from that, Snow brings Sentinel which shuts down ST damage and can really help to reign in MT damage with his Fringeward passive. Having good damage in Commando doesn't hurt either.
The Knight doesn't take damage and has good physical damage to back that up. Citan + Knight physical is enough to OHKO average and aside from Zalmo or Sentinel Snow he could very well be the hardest to take out.
Really I'm not sure if the team needs Status Symbol Law because most of the characters have pretty good status resists, but I figure it's better to be safe than sorry especially with Snow mitigating the effects somewhat. Overall, most of the team (Zalmo being the big exception) has good damage but it's almost all ST and physical. The extreme lack of magic damage is my biggest concern for the team because Snow is the only one who has any. At least it's infinite and Ruin is non-elemental. Most of them have pretty good elemental resist options as well which could save a fight or two, but we'll see how this goes and if it's possible to make a really successful defensive/stall team.
Any thoughts on how the team will do or how could be improved?
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It looks like a pretty interesting team. I think the first thing that leaps out at me is that you only have one reviver before Cecil learns Raise (he learns it at level 40, so no sooner than Floor 5, I'd say). Your team is definitely hard to take down, but Zalmo's healing is mostly (all?) ST, so the team might have trouble keeping up with MT magic. Granted, between the characters you've got, I think most of them have some way of reducing elemental damage, so that helps. Also, I think Status Symbol Law is actually a pretty good choice of Sealstone for a potential stall team like yours, because status tends to be one thing that even strong teams can get muffled with (ohai Yang and Edward!), and SSL guarantees you don't have to deal with it. Your team is so durable they can handle the 10% drop.
Personally, I would aim for another reviver. Eiko isn't exactly durable, but Eiko's Carbuncle grants not only MT Reflect, but also MT Protect (although, equipped with the right jewel, it can also grant Haste and Vanish). She also brings good MT magic damage and MT healing to the table, and FF9 equips give her a bevy of elemental resists, as we know. Cecil's damage is okay, but it's not great, his revival is late, and I don't think you need Cover when you've already got someone like Snow. He's pretty strong in the early floors, but you've got Citan to help you through those. Cecil just feels sort of expendable. I would replace Cecil w/ Eiko, and that also gives you an extra 0.5 of wiggle room, if there's anything else you thing you could improve/change.
On another note, does anyone think Miakis might be pricy for a 4.0? She's definitely got great versatility, but she's limited by Suikoden charges, like most Suikoden characters, and some of the really sexy runes and combos only start showing up on Floor 5~. I don't think she's a gamebreaker the way some of the other 4.0s are, but I can't recall seeing Miakis in the Dungeon, so I might not be giving her as much credit as she deserves, but I think she might be better as a 3.5. She feels overshadowed by other 4.0s, but I don't think she overshadows the 3.5s.
Thoughts?
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In LFT Cure 3 hits a larger range than it does in FFT so it's not true MT healing, but it should be able to hit around three or four members of the team at once. Zalmo is probably the most durable person on the team so the lack of revival is a bit less worrying especially with Snow around to force enemies to attack him.
As for Cecil, I'm not so sure about Eiko since with her durability she'd practically have a big sign asking to kill her off first. I am considering Stocke though, he has earlier and better revival and similar durability to Cecil but lacks the buffs and his healing is a bit worse. He does also have some magic damage and with the teams ability to stall, he can store up a bunch of turns to break fights open. Do you think that could work better?
As for Miakis, Suikoden 5 isn't that widely played and I think the reason she hasn't been used often is that you need a pretty good idea of S5 mechanics to get the full potential out of her.
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I am using Miakis on my next team. Which is: Miakis, Nall, Cristo, Brey, Solo, Angelo. I'm not sure how she'll work,but she does provide some offensive spark to an otherwise super defensive team
Edit: Neph, do you think an All Divide Sealstone would be viable? Halves damage to everyone in the field.
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I would totes support a Sealstone that cuts back on the rocket tag aspect of the Dungeon myself.
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Changed both my teams, so ignore my last team post.
Team "NelisXBernadette OTP or Priest is the Best 0.5 ever"
Rika (4.0), Nelis (2.5), Eileen (2.5), Bernadette (1.5), Priest (0.5) [Elemental Penetration]
Modus operandi: Rika does her Rika things while Nelis and Eileen try to kill everything with MT with no worries about being elementally walled ever. Magical walls completely own my ass and MP woes will probably come to play, but what can you do. Also, Nelis and Bernadette together in a team aw yeah. I also use way too many girls on my teams and way too much MT.
Team "March of the Supervillainesses"
Shania (3.5), Mei-ling (2.5), Hildagarde Valentine (3.0), Eiko (1.5) Mint (0.5) [Body Charge Sealstone on Hilda]
No real rhyme or reason other than having girls and Mei-ling (alternatively, call it team "Mei-ling's Koorong Prostitution Ring" and wince). EDIT: Body Charge Hilda+Shania! Oh yes, combo shenanigans. I guess Entrance on Mei-Ling also isn't bad... also, check it out, everybody in the team heals and revives! ... eventually.
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Hmm after thinking on it for a bit, I'm gonna change up my team slightly.
Zalmo 3.0
Lenneth 3.0
Citan 2.5
Snow 2.0
Rena .5
Status Symbol Law
Lenneth's buffs and damage looked too good to pass up and she starts with the ones that are most relevant to the team. Throwing out a bunch of Might Reinforces at the start of a fight can quickly make the teams damage overwhelming. She's still durable with good hp and really high defense. I'm not that familiar with VP2 so I don't know just how much of an impact defense makes, but the stat topic has her at 329 to a 188 average so it should at least be worth something. She also starts with revival and her healing that still lets her do something else in the turn. I lose a bit of speed, but Citan has haste to remedy that somewhat. So any thoughts on whether this is a good change?
Edit: Swapped Rand for Rena.
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I've never played Xenogears, so I don't know when Citan gets his Haste spell, but the Dungeon List makes it sound like he doesn't get it at least for a little while, and your team (Citan excluded) is pretty slow without the Haste. Very tanky team, there's no doubt about that, especially considering you're status immune. Having more than one reviver is also good. I like to think that three revivers is ideal in teams without Nall, but I guess that shouldn't be a huge deal with your revivers being tanky and status immune. Beware the strong MT magic!
Also, Jo'ou, that is an impressive amount of women. Not one, but TWO all-female teams? I dig it. What I find a little worrisome, though, is that Team "NelisXBernadette OTP or Priest is the Best 0.5 ever" has two revivers that are both pretty limited in the actual amount of revival they can manage (Priest is held back by FFT MP, which is inevitably going to be low for the first 2-3 floors, and Bernadette's revival is attached to her level 4 spell, which she only has 3 of at endgame). However, the team's speed and MT are certainly impressive. =P
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VP2 defense is utterly worthless. Don't think the team needs to be -so- defensive either, since you have Snow as is. Status Symbol Law completely sucks as well on a team with your level of statusblocking. Most of the time, I feel the fights where you need to block a lot of status end up being fights that overwhelm you through other means -anyway-. I've yet to see a team where Status Law doesn't end up doing more harm than good on average except maybe Dhyer's old Nina1/Cielo effort. Also, Rand is completely terrible in the dungeon if you don't have early speed boosting (Senkei is floor 6, mang). Honestly, you probably want a PS4 buffer in the middle there (Rika being the obvious choice, Alys being an acceptable substitute).
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Also, Jo'ou, that is an impressive amount of women. Not one, but TWO all-female teams? I dig it. What I find a little worrisome, though, is that Team "NelisXBernadette OTP or Priest is the Best 0.5 ever" has two revivers that are both pretty limited in the actual amount of revival they can manage (Priest is held back by FFT MP, which is inevitably going to be low for the first 2-3 floors, and Bernadette's revival is attached to her level 4 spell, which she only has 3 of at endgame). However, the team's speed and MT are certainly impressive. =P
Yeah, the team just -wasn't- made for huge slogs and I know the issues there. Status healing may also be a problem, since Rika has none. I'm mostly relying on the godliness of PS4 buffs+Copper Flesh to stay alive. Saner and Deban to cover the pdur woes, Copper Flesh for cheese, then rocks fall and stoves burn, everybody dies. I'm hoping I don't -need- to revive much to begin with in this effort. The team is going to bite it hard floor 7 and onwards, since that's when you start wanting attrition power really bad. I wanted to have someone with MP healing, but that probably means I'd have to give up Bern, and eh to that.
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Swapped Rand for Rena. Rena will probably get more turns than Rand and will be able to do better things with those turns. She's a bit frail, but that might persuade other teams to attack her from attacking Lenneth, Citan and Snow who are the core of my offense.
Also, question for Neph, how should we determine turn order when there's a bunch of average characters on both sides?
For example say the team I've designed now (Zalmo, Snow, Lenneth, Citan, Rena SSL sealstone) were to go up against last fight of floor 7 (Ashera, Chaos, Gilbert). As it is now, this fight's kind of a clusterfuck with Rena and to a lesser extent Ashera both having an argument for losing tiebreaks and Gilbert's speed just being a mess to interpret all around as it ranges from slightly above to below average depending on where you take the level average. Here turn order really influences the result.
Any order like Citan > Ashera > Chaos > Gilbert > Snow > Lenneth> Rena > Zalmo where the enemy team all goes first obviously results in a bad loss, but any order like Citan > Snow > Chaos > Rena > Ashera > Lenneth > Gilbert > Zalmo where Snow and Lenneth both go before Gilbert and Rena splits Ashera and Chaos's turns result in an easy win (Rena heals up Ashera or Chaos's damage before the other attacks and Snow, Citan, and Lenneth kill Gilbert before he gets a turn). Any other order is a bit more difficult to interpret but these where the most extreme cases.
So is there a consistent way we should call this like tie breaking in favor for the team or the dungeon or should we just leave it up to everyone as a judgement call?
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Tiebreaking average speed characters is always a judgment call as it stands. You can use factors like threat range (movement+attack range), in-game initiative, the effectiveness of turn speed in the case of average speed characters from a game where there is a stat governing turn order/amount of turns gotten, but it's never really simple. Soooo yeah.
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It's a good question but ultimately one that tends to be up to the voter. For me, I'd definitely say Ashera breaks average speed tiebreaks due to unlimited range... I think I'd have to lean against Snow breaking average because of charge times in FF13, although if he's only getting one skill off then it might come out faster.
I tend to lean towards the "good" team breaking average against the bad team though, especially in Floor 7 cases where the same PC is being used.
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What Jo'ou said, tiebreaking average speed is a mess. As messy as it is, it's probably even worse when according to Some Arbitrary Set of Stats character X is 1.01 average speed, but changing a few assumptions / different level-ups / etc. obviously can change it to below average speed, or notably faster, or whatever. (The SH3 Gilbert case, but also say FF6 Celes.) I for one am totally willing to fudge that a bit, and generally would see the PC team winning the tiebreaks short of good reason to go against. (Sadly, Rena is one of them - I'd see her as a tad slow, at least when she's casting. Fists of fury stunlock Rena is a tad fast of course.)
Definitely not behind Ashera winning tiebreak hype though, would agree with dude and have her *lose* tiebreaks. You go first and can easily walk up to her and smack her since you start close enough. (Sure, I'd give say Limstella initiative because she's got long-range and you can't get to her in one turn without getting zapped, but that's not the case for Ashera.) Not sure I agree on Snow either... his "charge times" are just the initiative bar filling up which is the same for everyone. (To the extent that FF13 turn rates differ, it's in whether the enemy is 'tied up' or not by getting hit, so theoretically Commando / Ravager are a bit fast, everything else is a bit slow. Okay and ATB-charge abilities like Lifesiphon or the Axis Blade firing off, but that shouldn't be in the speed average.) There's some mild wackiness for, say, what happens when Vanille is status spamming... it's reasonable to say that if a status is turn 1 but only hits on the 5th shot, that's happening at ~.90 speed roughly, while a status that hits the first attempt is really happening at 1.10, but that's too much of a headache.
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Ashera not having movement would be a very good case for her to lose tiebreaks for me unless it's simply not possible to get into range of attacking her without being attacked before. Even then, she'd lose more tiebreaks than she'd win for me, I figure.
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Ashera would lose average speed tiebreaks to me on the basis that she's an enemy unit in a game where PCs get to move first in a turn.
That said, if you're going to use her range to hype her winning tiebreaks, you'd better not let her get the benefit of range 1 damage figures on turn 1, since like Snow mentioned she literally has 0 move.
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to dude:
For a defensive team, you were awfully frail once Worker went down. I think Ramza can either be set up for offense or support, not both. Though... even a defense up tanked out defense splitting ubersquire would have had serious issues with the fight in floor 7 that killed you. That was evil.
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Yeah, speaking of that fight, is it staying? A lot of people have mentioned it being evil and Ashera, Chaos, Gilbert pump out something like 3x PCHP in a very tight speed range.
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It has been changed to Ashera, Chaos and Profound Darkness.
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Profound Darkness+Chaos? Are you -serious-? That's MT overkill within a comparably tight speed range. Profound Darkness should -never- be paired with anyone with MT below floor 8.
EDIT: Gilbert is honestly less evil, since at least you can blitz the fuck out of him.
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PD is more managable if she starts in her first form which doesn't have MT damage and the speed curve is less tight than it was with Gilbert and Chaos.
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I'm not so sure. The problem with PD being there is that she's an insanely durable body to add up pressure at OHKO-level offense while Ashera and Chaos spam stuff. To me, the bigger problem is -Chaos-, he of the MT immunity-ignoring ID spam, whose durability problems take specific exploits, along with someone else with durability gimmicks and MT damage. Honestly, I just think Ashera+Chaos should -not- be paired together at floor 7 - it'd be a better idea to pair Ashera or Chaos with PCs rather than other bosses if Neph -must- put them together.
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I'm not really sure it's that big an issue. PD only has ST damage in her first form... I feel like it isn't that big of a deal, really.
For reference, I wanted the gimmick of the fight to be "Order and Chaos," so if just Ashera and Chaos is enough then that's fine... and yes, PD was assumed to be in the first form and formchain through the fight.
EDIT: I could also do "Light and Dark," but that always struck me as really boring.
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Oh, it's only PD's first form? If it's not the full chain, then it's not too big a deal.
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How about swapping out Chaos for Lufia 2 Amon? It keeps the order/chaos theme and he has enough damage that between Ashera, PD, and Amon they can put a lot of pressure on teams without having stupid amounts of MT damage.
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I would be fine with that too.
And Snow I meant "PD who starts in Form 1," not "Only is Form 1."
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Maybe it's just a faulty link, but the link to the list of Dungeon Picks is showing the old list, before a bunch of changes were made.
http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Full_List_of_Dungeon_Participants
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The wiki was reverted to an older version. I will fix it right... now. There you go.
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Updating Team:
Ivan (2.5)
Scarecrow (2.5)
Mesarthim (2.5)
Zemeckis/Hydra (2) (Firefly, I guess)
Riddel (1.5)
I think my theme is "have elemental weakness"? Let's see if it can make it past Floor 1! I've got a good mix of speedy and average. Lots of status and revival, though somewhat limited healing. Not much durability, so we'll see how Firefly works? I have some decent options with how to build my team with Ivan and Riddel, so that could be fun. No outstanding lynchpin players and I'm not using anything particularly tricky with mechanics like Delta Shield or Silent Lake or Spell-Binding Eye like I usually gravitate to. Just going for balance and some status-whoring.
Can Riddel use "Consumable Elements" (Items)?
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Does that team have any revival?
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Mesarthim starts with it. Ivan and Riddel get it easily enough depending on Djinni/Element choice.
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I suppose Riddel could use the consumable elements.
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Yuri2 (3.5), Strawman (2.5), Cecil (2), Zemeckis/Hydra(2)[Firefly], Serge (1)
New Team, based on the same ideas as the old one, only less terrible. Maybe.
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Since apparently Seifer has raised eyebrows (Although.. I think he's still probably fine if he gets a "please talk with Neph before using BC / Speed?" note), maybe use an FF8 character whose Limit isn't MT? There will still be cheesing when teams can set up a guaranteed Limit then watch as some slow tanky boss gets owned, but that's probably safer than MT destruction, and plays better with speed-boosting.
I'd tentatively suggest a hacked Edea - her limit is actually one of the weaker ones (only 2.60 PCHP or so, a few bosses can actually survive it), it's ST, and she's below average speed. (And verify that yes, assuming the team can chip down Edea themselves if they want to is priced into the score.) To add some spice, allow some junctions for her - say Elemental Attack, Status Attack, and Status Defense. Makes her a bit less swingy since even without setting up a limit, she can still attack for a 100% chance of Sleep / Petrify / Instant Death / etc.
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My problem with the Seifer limit abuse thing actually I'll fully admit to be entirely irrational (it's actually not even strikingly overpowered or anything). It's less because it's cheesy and OP and more because it's slightly dumb in a strategic sense along with getting into the compound issues of FF8+temp (and now that I'm not seething bitterness over it, I'll consider the strategy, sure. Come to think of it, Seifer borders on 0.5 -without- it). The BC juggling issue was the bigger problem there to me, I feel. >_>
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Ramza could always status Seifer to make the limit more likely!!
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Blind hype in the dungeon. This is acceptable.
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New team.
Songstress (3.0)
Eileen (2.5) w/ NeoSpeed
Garnet (2.5)
Marcus (1.5)
FFT Priest (0.5)
Nall (1.0)
It's been a long time since the last Songstress team, so I figured I'd put together a new one. Basic idea is ultrafast!Eileen gets off Copper Flesh on Songstress, and then you can't stop the music! Ahem... Marcus will help get through early floors, and Garnet's summons on later floors will provide a viable blitzing option w/ Eileen's Earthquake, if needed. Team will probably crash and burn against any half-decent boss, but it's in good fun.
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New team.
Songstress (3.0)
Eileen (2.5) w/ NeoSpeed
Garnet (2.5)
Marcus (1.5)
FFT Priest (0.5)
Nall (1.0)
It's been a long time since the last Songstress team, so I figured I'd put together a new one. Basic idea is ultrafast!Eileen gets off Copper Flesh on Songstress, and then you can't stop the music! Ahem... Marcus will help get through early floors, and Garnet's summons on later floors will provide a viable blitzing option w/ Eileen's Earthquake, if needed. Team will probably crash and burn against any half-decent boss, but it's in good fun.
I think it'd be better to give Garnet the sealstone. Nall can help teams without a ton of revival, but he really needs a fast healer to back him up so that the team doesn't get knocked right back down again. Eileen's already going to be faster than about 80-90% of the enemies in the dungeon without the sealstone, and if you give Garnet the sealstone they'll both be able to throw down their MT damage before most opponents get a turn.
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Are there any (not Nall) 1.0s or 0.5s that start off with revival? (or gain it within the first three floors)~
Also did peeps know FFXIII SEN can use Provoke so the effects of multi part/target/hits abilities being used against their team will be focused on the SEN who will take the full brunt of the assault?~
Something interesting to think about, it's a tech/strat NCU/challenge players have incorperated for dealing with enemy abilities like Thanatosian Laughter, etc in FFXIII~
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FFT Priest and FFT Priest for 0.5s. Raja arguably starts with revival as well and he's a 1.0.
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True Persona 4 Team
Souji Seta (4)
Chie Satonaka (2)
Yosuke Hanamura (2)
Naoto Shiragane (1.5)
Yukiko Amagi (1.5)
Press Turn Sealstone
'cause I haven't done this in a while and my RPG knowledge anymore is painfully narrow.
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FFT Priest and FFT Priest for 0.5s. Raja arguably starts with revival as well and he's a 1.0.
FFT Priest -and- FFT Priest, you say...
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Yes, because FFT Priest is the best 0.5 ever. =3
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Are there any (not Nall) 1.0s or 0.5s that start off with revival? (or gain it within the first three floors)~
Isn't this why Ronfar exists?
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Ronfar EBC has non-dice early revival? Add him up there, then.
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Thanks guys =)
I checked a FAQ and apparently Ronfar learns it at L21? -
"Name:Revive Litany
MP:12
Learned At Level:21.
Description:Revive a dead party member. Restores 1/2 of
their HP."
(credits, Soal)
I would probably call this F2/F3 end of F2 borderline myself but I don't know how Lunar level distribution works in the dungeon~
So I decided to stop procrastinating and am changing White Rose to Mesarthim on the basis of yaay mermaids!~ (also dat Life Raaaaaaain~)
Fang (3.0)
Peppita (3.0)
Mesarthim (2.5)
Vanille (2.0)
Meru (0.5) (Alternatively Rena, FFT Priest , Mint? Jean? Hero? Rand?)
Thought process behind Meru is I think Diamond Dust would work well off Imperil and since she starts off with her dragoon spirit she should pick up Rainbow Breath for healing early. Resources might be an issue though and I don't know if Mesa alone could keep the team going until Vanille picks up revival F4. Alternatively Rena and Mint have Haste? does this actually work? Same with Jean's speed up. Hero might be an interesting back up healer and status slinger to add to the wide range of status Fang/Peppita/Vanille already have going. Rand as a back up durable healer who gets revival later if I remember right? FFT Priest would start me off with another reviver at least - and she kind of looks like the best option the more I look at her for a dedicated defensive based healer/support unit so~
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New plan: ALL the turns!
Lenneth (3.0)
Ivan (2.5) (Elemental Penetration Sealstone - I think he's the only one this effects either way)
Jane (2.0)
Sacred Slayer (2.0)
Marco (1.5)
The basic plan is Jane/SS/Marco give Lenneth turns. Lenneth Nibelung Valestis things to death. If that doesn't work, then I have lots of status, healing, revival, and speed to fall back on. Durability is suspect, but I've got a durable healer with infinite resources who starts with Angel Feather. Ivan for magic damage and status, should Nibelung Valestis be immuned or something.
This team probably explodes because I'm missing something, but it's a fun idea. I'm still debating whether I'd rather use Lilka here for my infinite resources mage instead of Ivan, but I think it's worth giving him a whirl. Alternately, I'm considering Aika.
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It's come up that the Body Charge Sealstone may need some reworking to work with Fire Emblem characters.
I would like it to increase their initiative as well as their Attack Speed, but doing both by 1.3x may be too good. It has been suggested to increase AS by a flat number (say, 4) to solve this. I'm ambivalent on the issue but wanted to get suggestions. It's also been suggested to just let it work like it does on all other characters.
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They should just go at 130% speed and have their normal attack at 30% boost like everyone else. Otherwise is a really bad idea (30% Damage Boost and then potentially double their damage again...).
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That may ultimately be the best way to handle it.
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I've had a bunch of ideas floating around for team options so I figure I'll just post them and we can hash them out and see which ones stick. Some of these may be old ideas, but maybe they'll fit in better now.
Tellah (FF4): 1.5
Pros: Good durability at first! Has almost every spell of the powerful FF4 magic skillset at his disposal. Spectacular damage once he gets his level 3 spells
Cons: Bad speed and he ends up in a party with Cid, Cecil and Yang which does horrific things to his durability. MP restoration is a requirement with his awful MP.
Yang (FF4): 1.5
Pros: Fast status whore with Ness like durability. Can also hit elemental weakness.
Cons: Damage is never good and he's almost completely ST. No real team support options either.
Elincia (FE10) 2.5
Pros: Really good until floor 5 when others start to catch up to her. Even then she never really falls off because Amiti is so good. FE10 staves have some cool options.
Cons: The arrow and wind magic weakness is a bummer especially with her durability towards the end.
Darkrai (Pokemon D/P/Pt) 3.0
Pros: Very fast with good damage and great starting stats. Bad Dreams gives him lots of synergy with a sleep heavy team.
Cons: Block sleep or dark and he won't be contributing much. Like most pokemon, he's largely ST.
Cthulu (CStW) 3.0
Pros: Self sufficient slugger with excellent stats all around. Cursed Sword can do evil things on a blitzing team. DAMAGE BONUS AGAINST NYARLATHOTEP!!!
Cons: No real team support, has to sacrifice a lot of stats for Cursed Sword (they'll still be good just not great) and the damage buff to opponents with Cursed Sword can blow up in a team's face.
Umi (CStW) 3.0
Pros: Great skillset with lots of status. Siren's Call, Cute Pose and Keep Fighting are all really good in the dungeon. Has some options to get good speed.
Cons: The durability is really bad. Has to choose between Keep Fighting and consistent MT healing.
Dacre (CStW) 2.0
Pros: Solid healer with good buffs and deep resources. Speed Hymn and Regen-All in particular are pretty great.
Cons: Bad stats. Has to choose between the ST and weaker MT buffs, but usually a team can be designed with that in mind. Bad damage until Holy and his MT healing is mediocre.
Milly or Carver (DQ6 with one job mastery per floor starting on floor 3) 2.5
Pros: Take your pick between a speedy mage and a durable slugger. DQ6 skillset eventually get pretty ridiculous and they can pick and choose what they need.
Cons: Most early jobs hurt your stats pretty bad. Takes a long while to get going.
Melia (Xenoblade Chronicles) 2.0
Pros: Great damage and she has a unique form of buffing that lets her mix and match passive buffs according to what the party needs. Has a couple of accurate status effects which work well with her skillset.
Cons: Terrible durability and interp issues.
If there's a lot of interest in Milly/Carver I can create a list of the skills that each job learns and how it affects their stats.
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Yang's virtually average speed before he gets his FF4a equips which I assume come on floor 7 (and if he's not specified as FF4a, some voters will never see that happeneing at all).
Darkrai's weird in that most of his signature moves are gained at aftergame levels. His worth will also fluctuate somewhat with version, as Diamond/Pearl has access to 70% Hypnosis, but in all other games (including Platinum) it is stuck at 60%, which is the difference between turn 1 and turn 2 for many people.
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Agree that Yang is a pretty meh choice due to shooting up in value on F7 while being quite blah F1-F6. Tellah might be workable, though. Not an amazing 1.5 but a versatile one, at least if you have MP healing.
+1 to Elincia in the Dungeon; I wrote a bit on her before:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,1736.msg141315.html#msg141315
She's a bit awkward on F1-F2 where her offense is bad but she's nigh-unkillable to make up for it. Still, without revival, she could theoretically get into a bad position of letting everyone else die then failing to solo. But yeah, she's pretty broken on F3 and F6.
I think there was a debate on Cthulhu before, and 3.0 is probably too pricy. Cursed Sword is a great way to get the team killed in the Dungeon where you can't exactly take it off, iS F5 anyway, and his drain game doesn't help so much without revival. He's a lot more vanilla F1-F4 where he'll be a bit of a drag. Maybe a 2.5?
Umi is quite possibly worth more, though. Siren's Call off good speed = totally awesome in the dungeon, and Keep Fighting is one of those great reset buttons to bail out of impossible situations. Unstoppable 1-turn stun + a damage boost is Millenia-lite, except much faster. Throw in some fast status for fun, some of which I believe could be set to MT (Rather than cruddy GT)? Yeah, thinking she's more like a 3.5, even despite the durability problems. If she gets a stun off then dies that's still pretty good for many teams.
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Cthulhu is closer to a 2.0 to me, as I said before, his stats are utterly unimpressive until endgame and the Cursed Sword isn't until F5 I believe and it's a pretty double-edged benefit. Dedication to not very impressive ST doesn't help his cause much. A 2.5 may work if you're kind, but I'm not feeling it.
Umi should probably be a 2.5. Yulietastic physical durability and sort of bad magical durability is just way too exploitable and with the exception of Siren's Call, her good stuff is simply too late to justify much higher. That said she does impress me more than Cthulhu does in the dungeon, simply because Siren's Call can troll some fights, but it gets way less useful on larger ones and doesn't have SBE's duration.
Dacre strikes me more of a 1.5. The skillset is good but it still takes time for MTability and Dacre's speed/durability combo isn't exactly impressing.
Seconding the no to Yang. Tellah may not even be worth it as a 1.0, those stats are atrocious and he falls of harder than Marcus.
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Oh yeah I am lowering Raquel to 2.5.
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This is agreeable.
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Did anything ever come of the suggestion to add the FF6 Ghost as a one-per-floor perfect ID that ignores immunity? Because, man, I loved that idea.
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I... suppose I could do that.
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Just a warning. It isn't perfect ID. >_> It just ignores immunity.
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According to the only source I could find that weighs in on its hit rate (one I generally trust), it is 37.5% accuracy. That's pretty terrible in the dungeon unless you have some way to jack it up.
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I.. know what I meant. >.<; Yeah, I was basically just repeating myself. I meant perfect ID to be ID that works on everything, not perfect accuracy, whoops. But yeah, it wouldn't be anything but a 0.5, but it's just a fun little pick that can, with a little effort, kill some fights in hilarious fashion. (hi extra turn shenanigans!)
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It's an effect that kicks in, on average, every -three fights-. That's a once-in-a-floor deal that can't even be rigged to work where you -want- it to. That's not worth even a 0.5. =/ It's hilarious, but way too poor to be worth even adding.
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Clearly I need to invent a Perfect Accuracy sealstone.
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Oh yeah, Citan is going to 3.0 and Seifer is going to 1.5.
BC is being changed to increase effective speed by 1.3x and reduce damage taken to .7x, no more health increase. It also can no longer be moved at all, under any circumstances.
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What about damage? I'd be in favor of keeping that on BC.
I think Citan is safe to keep at 2.5, actually. Just don't give him a Speed Ring.
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What about damage? I'd be in favor of keeping that on BC.
I think Citan is safe to keep at 2.5, actually. Just don't give him a Speed Ring.
I agree with Snowfire on both counts. Citan is way to ST oriented to be worth a 3.0. As long as you don't give him a Speed Ring he should be fine where he is, and Body Charge really needs the damage buff to be worthwhile at all.
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Oh right, derp, yeah, it also increases damage by 1.3x too.
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Here is the Presidential Team:
T260G, Mesarthim, Yulie (Body Charge), Marco and Raynie.
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Also, since I'm still in High-School Science 101 mood, let's play a little game:
Team Phantasy Star 4 After-School Special
Rika (4.0), Rune (Body Charge, 3.5), Kyra (2.0), Raja (1.0), Nall (0.5).
Let's see if PS4 PCs are as brokenly good as they're vaunted to be in the dungeon.
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I'd suggest for Deis1 (and any other latejoiners with strange spikes in use after they do join) to be removed from the roster in the future to avoid this, because I don't think there's a good, intuitive solution for such duellers.
I think this particular topic deserves some intense merit and consideration.
I honestly had never considered it to be an issue, but in light of recent scrutiny, it may be a better idea to get rid of people who join late. Deis2 may also be in the same camp, but you can pick her up much earlier than 1, so maybe not?
Orlandu is another but he's a lot easier to interpret since you can just assume he's there from the start and can get his skillset and everything by Floor 2.
I'd love to hear some discussion on this topic though, as I definitely want things to be less... hmm... bizzare? If I can make it so.
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The main problem that, say, Orlandu, avoids is that FFT is a game where stat growth is nearly linear (that is, if PC #1 has more unequipped HP than PC #2 at Level 1, he will have more unequipped HP at every level), which is a property BoF1 does not share. It is very easy to say "pretend Orlandu joined at Level 1 with start-of-game equips, and scale appropriately" because Orlandu's pre-join performance can easily be extrapolated and predicted, and official word of mod settles the Excalibur issue nicely.
Deis2 I could see being slightly problematic but I'd expect her to be far less so. Her start is better than her end but whether people extrapolate her start backwards or do something more handwavy and extrapolate her "overall" performance backwards ultimately makes relatively little difference (nothing that should cause a large swing in her rating).
Deis1's problems feel fairly unique to me among the current roster but there's a chance I am forgetting someone.
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Actually, that hits a fair deal of the PS4 cast. Rika, who starts underlevelled and just soars in levels, just happening to get that spike a lot earlier also due to joining considerably earlier and having better base stats. Raja, who actually endures it in the reverse - latejoiner who starts overlevelled and gradually loses his edge (how do you scale him early? Taking his overlevelled stint or endgame-like?). Rune arguably suffers from that as well due to an idyosincratic early showing. Then there are cases like Toadstool, who joins midgame with durability and damage of complete suck and spikes in stats in a manner not entirely unlike Deis1, albeit less extreme and not reliant on different XP curves. The line between what's simple to extrapolate and what isn't is honestly very thin (it feels like the extrapolation is clearly an issue with Deis1, while it isn't with Toadstool, and I say that as a fairly intuitive gut reaction of mine. But why outside of sheer stat scale scope and possibly BoF1 mechanics being rather wonky with stuff like fixed power for spells? The fundamental issue is similar).
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I think in the case of Deis1 vs. Toadstool is there's... way less actual "game" in SMRPG than in BoF1. Maybe that's just me, though.
I feel like the issue of Raja had come up before and we figured what abilities he'd have at level 1. I guess that is irrelevant, though.
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In the case of Rika, she joins so early in-game that I hardly consider it a big deal (and unlike Deis, her initial weakness is gone after a few battles, not a few dungeons). Rune absolutely does curbstomp floor 1 to me (he even has a temp appearance in-game to let you know this). Raja... I dunno, again, he doesn't feel like he's vastly hard to deal with. None of them have completely unintuitive stats at join time or anything like that.
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Toadstool also has a lot more notable lag in game (as in, you will very strongly notice it upon her joining) so people who pick her are going to remember and adjust for this more (I wouldn't have remembered at least that Deis 1 was bad on joining for dungeon, but always remember when Toadstool comes up).
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I don't think it's a big issue. As noted, Peppita is in the Dungeon, and she is utter puny-bait on early floors if scaled to the *moment* she joins, but give her a single dungeon, and she merely has a level penalty, not a horrific disadvantage. Give her 3 dungeons, and it's pretty well gone. I don't really recall any problems with her the last time she was used - the "problem" with Peppita was that she was actually *under*priced at first and earned herself a price increase.
It's the same with Deis1. Her level penalty does not last very long, so while I can see an argument for a stat penalty on Floor 1, it really shouldn't be a problem on Floor 2.
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The issue is that it isn't a level penalty. That may not make a difference to you, but I think it does for me, and it certainly will to some others.
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Yeah, I think that's what nails the fundamental problem. Deis1 joins at a level compatible with the rest of the party with bleh stats and then experiences sudden spikes. Thing is she joins something like late floor 4 and are we going to say that Deis1 spends -half the game sucking- when this just isn't true in-game? But no other choice even makes any sense. Toadstool makes more sense, since her spike is more gradual (she spends at least two floors at game-worst durability even after she joins), and then there's the fact that Deis' stats jump from subpar across the board to near game-best all-around within two floors. It's kind of a bitch in that sense.
Peppita scaling is at least simpler because her growths are linear. Deis' growths certainly aren't.
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Ah, I see. That said... basically you already nailed it. The actual number next to "level" isn't really relevant to me. I don't care what level my character is, I care how much hurt they emit & how much hurt they can take and how fast. The effect with Deis is comparable to a level penalty for me.
I didn't play Phantasy Star 2, but IIRC for whatever reason Nei's levels give her half the stats of other characters, but she gains them twice as fast. If hypothetically a Nei-like character joined halfway through the game at the exact same level as the party, she's not underleveled to casual examination, but in actuality she is - her stats are half as good as they should be for that level number. (Now what matters is how fast she catches up... the problem with say FE7 Nino, as you pointed out before, is that she doesn't really catch up fast enough without kill feeding her, so she deserves a level penalty for a really long time.)
Jo'ou: Well Deis1 joins more like "early Floor 3" I'd say at least, which is something. I do agree that characters whose stats don't scale easily throughout the game can be headachey.
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I haven't played BoF1 or 2, but I always thought the point of Deis1 was "uberfast damage beast for the entirety of Nyarlie's Dungeon", thus her pricetag. As such, I've always just scaled her based on her worth. You could just make it a hard rule for late-joiners? I mean, you already have a hard rule for them that they start with whatever their skillset was at joining, despite the fact that this doesn't really reflect an in-game experience for the player (VP2 Lenneth starts with all those healing spells on F1, but you certainly don't have access to those with any PC available in VP2's earlygame).
The point of most of the latejoiners in the roster was to give us access to slightly more diverse PCs early on because Nyarlie's Dungeon is slightly more difficult than most JRPGs and requires more careful team balance rather than the emphasis on -progression- you'd get in an actual game.
tl;dr: It's already artificial, her point value clearly shows how she's supposed to be taken, just go with it~
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I see no reason to "go with" something that is actually a lie personally. People misremembered Deis and the point value caused them to buy into this misremembering, but now that we know better there's no reason for the character to continue to exist.
Jo'ou: Well Deis1 joins more like "early Floor 3" I'd say at least, which is something.
As per previous discussion which I thought you agreed with, you don't get dragons until after F2, and Deis is way later than them. In fact, Deis joins notably after the game's clear halfway point (the one with the music change when you get Gobi) and as such late floor 4 seems if anything a bit generous for Deis' joining point. Also as per previous discussion, the first boss entry in Meeple's stat topic where Deis is actually impressive is Mothro, i.e. five dungeons from the end of the game. (read: F6, or maybe late F5.)
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Re interps: Eh, "lie" seems over the top. It's just the difference between pretending a late-joining character joins at level 1 early in the game (hence no interp problems for Orlandu or Peppita) vs. attempting to scale their performance at their rough time-of-join to earlier floors. I believe both approaches are valid, and I like to go with the approach that appears to reflect the character better. I'm not 100% sure Deis even ends up horrible via the first interp - we'd have to make up XP charts for her initial levels, so it's possible she'd be "caught up" and more by Floor 4, although impossible to say for sure.
Re join floor: Oh, oops. No that was just me misremembering slightly, you're right, it's Floor 4. (And the fact that Deis's early spells aren't damage-breakers of doom isn't under dispute, to be clear, I'm more litigating on the point of "is Deis slow and uber-frail" that comes from joining underlevel, which - correct me if I'm wrong - IS resolved fast in-game.)
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My two cents.
I generally disagree with anything that involves extrapolating stats and skillsets. If the character doesn't exist in-game for floors 1-3, then the most reasonable way to scale them is however you would on floor 4, not try to extrapolate something to earlier floors that doesn't actually exist in-game ever. It's still kind of weird, which is why I'm okay with not keeping characters who join that late in the Dungeon.
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It has come to my attention that we have not yet added the ultimate dungeon pick. I feel that this should be rectified so I present:
LUVDISC (Pokemon Black and White with egg moves available) .5
Pros: Neat skillset with healing, buffs, debuffs, status prevention, and cool miscellaneous skills like Mud Sport. Pretty speedy.
Cons: Is Luvdisc. Is 2HKOed by almost anything and lightning damage is extremely dangerous. No damage and Safe Guard is late.
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I would love the cons there to say:
"Terrible healing, ST buffs and debuffs, status prevention is late, and dies to Electric without Mud Sport. Nothing but speed."
Otherwise, I wholeheartedly support the idea of adding more Pokemon~
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Bit late but yeeah I'm sure people don't actually let the likes of Lenneth, etc start the dungeon at L60 or whatever it is she joins at in game >_> At least not for health stats~
Usually these type of characters come with an "interp issues" warning flag on the wiki and that's enough for me. I dunno using a project character is always a risk, and it's always been that way I think but it might be boring otherwise =P General rule of thumb is not to make an actual whole team of project characters unless you want it to explode for amusement value or even more hilariously even actually work out for a while if it somehow comes altogether depending and something just clicking, coming together out of the blue is where the fun is~
Alternatively you build your team round your project character with non projecty/non obscure characters :)
**
Sooo ... apparently Rena doesn't get revival till L60 ;o Yeah screw dat noise. Apparently Mint doesn't get it till late either? =/ Unless her Narakiri Dungeon/Radiant Mythology forms are legit >_>
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Bit late but yeeah I'm sure people don't actually let the likes of Lenneth, etc start the dungeon at L60 or whatever it is she joins at in game >_> At least not for health stats~
VP2 Lenneth? I do. I don't see why you shouldn't? Using something else is literally "making shit up" because it can't happen in-game. She joins at level 60 or whatever and is scaled to whatever the rest of the PCs look like at that point.
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Bit late but yeeah I'm sure people don't actually let the likes of Lenneth, etc start the dungeon at L60 or whatever it is she joins at in game >_> At least not for health stats~
VP2 Lenneth? I do. I don't see why you shouldn't? Using something else is literally "making shit up" because it can't happen in-game. She joins at level 60 or whatever and is scaled to whatever the rest of the PCs look like at that point.
If that's the case, Lenneth > Athos in just about every way as a dungeon pick, despite the fact that the former is 3.0, and the latter is 3.5.
Although I haven't played Valkyrie Profile, so I might be missing something about Lenneth. =P
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I think Tal is saying that he takes Lenneth compared to how she joins in-game compared to other characters at that point. So she joins at level 60, but is compared to other level 60 characters. She basically stays static until her join time on floor 6 or 7.
Athos on the other hand is an exception to the normal late joining rule. Rather than comparing him to endgame characters, he compares to characters at the time of the floor which makes him much more powerful on the early floors and it scales down to decent on the last few. It's a special rule for Athos to make him a more interesting and dynamic pick compared to other FE characters. Lenneth's skillset is varied enough that she doesn't need to be scaled this way to be interesting and if she was she would probably be a 4.0 easily.
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I think Tal is saying that he takes Lenneth compared to how she joins in-game compared to other characters at that point. So she joins at level 60, but is compared to other level 60 characters. She basically stays static until her join time on floor 6 or 7.
Athos on the other hand is an exception to the normal late joining rule. Rather than comparing him to endgame characters, he compares to characters at the time of the floor which makes him much more powerful on the early floors and it scales down to decent on the last few. It's a special rule for Athos to make him a more interesting and dynamic pick compared to other FE characters. Lenneth's skillset is varied enough that she doesn't need to be scaled this way to be interesting and if she was she would probably be a 4.0 easily.
Ahh, alright. Thank you for clearing that up.
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Just wanted to finalise my team as Peppita, Fang (Neo Speed), Vanille, Mesarthim and Priest :) I can't remember whether dude said Speed? or Neo Speed would be the best Seal Stone for Fang though~
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It was Neo Speed. In most cases Neo Speed is the better choice unless the character in question is spectacularly slow or you have some turn shift shenanigans that Neo Speed would interfere with.
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Thanks dude :) I think the base groundwork on this is sound enough for my team to get through the first few floors. Neph could you change it to Peppita/Fang(Neo Speed)/Vanille/Mesarthim/Priest in the OP? :)
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alright guys it's cool
i got this
Emma (1.5)
Bartz (Thief) (4)
Gastly (1.5)
Gilder (1.5)
Pikachu (1.5)
Nall (1)
Press Turn sealstone
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Regarding the topic of Speed? and NeoSpeed, Dhyer provided me with two suggestions for them that I think are pretty neat, but would like to get feedback on.
[21:53] <Nephrite> Do you have any thoughts on what I could do to balance the two speed-increasing sealstones besides removing them entirely?
[21:54] <Dhyerwolf> Hmm, NeoSpeed should probably not have as potent a boost. It was designed to get better as time goes on, right?
[21:55] <Nephrite> Correct. I did recently change it to 20% rather than 25% per turn.
[21:55] <Dhyerwolf> If so, make it +10%/+25%/+45%/+70%/Doubled
[21:56] <Dhyerwolf> Speed? at the very least should revert after turn 1, but can make solidly slow people fast for that one boost.
[21:56] <Dhyerwolf> As is, it's permanent, so no question mark is needed.
I like the idea of Speed? reverting after the first turn, it fits in line better with why I originally called it what I did. NeoSpeed I'm fine with getting a smaller boost to start and greater gains after subsequent turns (and maybe changing it to not immediately work before the person gets a turn? Ehh.)
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I did initially think the idea for Neo Speed was to kick in upon them getting their first turn! (That said, dungeon is still rocket tag, so it should at least have some turn 1 boost).
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Regarding the topic of Speed? and NeoSpeed, Dhyer provided me with two suggestions for them that I think are pretty neat, but would like to get feedback on.
[21:53] <Nephrite> Do you have any thoughts on what I could do to balance the two speed-increasing sealstones besides removing them entirely?
[21:54] <Dhyerwolf> Hmm, NeoSpeed should probably not have as potent a boost. It was designed to get better as time goes on, right?
[21:55] <Nephrite> Correct. I did recently change it to 20% rather than 25% per turn.
[21:55] <Dhyerwolf> If so, make it +10%/+25%/+45%/+70%/Doubled
[21:56] <Dhyerwolf> Speed? at the very least should revert after turn 1, but can make solidly slow people fast for that one boost.
[21:56] <Dhyerwolf> As is, it's permanent, so no question mark is needed.
I like the idea of Speed? reverting after the first turn, it fits in line better with why I originally called it what I did. NeoSpeed I'm fine with getting a smaller boost to start and greater gains after subsequent turns (and maybe changing it to not immediately work before the person gets a turn? Ehh.)
I think Speed? should probably give a bigger speed boost in that case. Or maybe just have it grant initiative, but the user has an extra delay to their next turn (50%? 100%?).
The NeoSpeed suggestion looks good. I think it should give a boost turn 1 since the dungeon is all about rocket tag. If not, then the bonuses should be more potent since it kind of sucks at those numbers if the 10% isn't given for turn 1.
The big thing is that one should be a better boost on turn 1, while the other has a bigger long term boost. Though different base speeds make it a bit hard to balance.
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Please let's not have a lookup chart for NeoSpeed. There should be a simple and memorable rubric. +20% speed per turn, works on the first turn, is simple and clean. Also, to keep Speed? competitive, it probably should remain "on" for later turns... although making it be something awesome like 130% speed turn 1 only might also work. (But that also might be a bit scary, since if someone picks it over NeoSpeed they're up to no good.)
Also, I'm not totally opposed to having Speed / NeoSpeed / Body Charge be really good, mostly since they at least give Firefly a run for its money that way. If anything I might consider buffing some of the other sealstones - say, get rid of the drawback on Life, perhaps.
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Buffing the sealstones that aren't as used is a good idea, yes.
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At 20% boost turn 1, Speed is the best sealstone generally. Even 15% is a bit potent overall turn 1, but at least better than 20% if needed (Also, everything needs to be mathed out anyways, so making Speed increase isn't a big deal calc wise). Firefly is good, but speed is the dungeon MVP stat. Dungeon is also rocket tag, so having Speed? continuously boost speed makes it too good. If higher than 120%, it depends on whether you absolutely want to make someone with the seal stone outspeed everyone turn 1 (My gut is no, that truly fast enemies should still go first).
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Since we're talking about buffing underused sealstones, does Multitarget still exist? I have an idea about it.
Multitarget: Allows the bearer to multitarget, on choice, his/her attacks or skills, but the multitargeted action suffers a 33% penalty on its effectiveness (an attack deals 33% less damage, status skills are 33% less accurate even if they are perfect hit rate, buffs raise the stats 33% less, healing is reduced by 33%, invincibility such as Copper Flesh reduces damage by 66% rather than immune). Untargettable attacks and turn-shifting effects are not affected by this sealstone.
I think both reducing the harshness of the effect nerf and allowing the PC whether he/she wants to use it or not greatly raise the viability of the sealstone, making it an interesting choice rather than a Sophie's choice deal. YMMV.
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Hmm, both nerfing the hit and letting it be choosable may make it a bit good (as is it's 50% reduction, and MT attacks just stay as normal). I prefer a lesser effect penalty but keeping that it has to be MT regardless myself (but then I also tend to think sealstones are more interesting with some drawbacks).
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Considering the level of the competition the other sealstones have to go through with the top-tier ones, I'm fine with it being a bit on the good side. I agree with you that sealstones are more interesting when they have clearer and stronger drawbacks, but I think the effectiveness reduction is a fair drawback as is considering the context. Multitarget, as it stands, is near-useless. I'd honestly be more amenable to the effect being halved, but MTing choosable.
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I think the forced MT is an important drawback in and of itself, but perhaps a reduction of 33% would be fine.
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At least, a 33% reduction gives it a niche for people like, say, Emily, who can start doling out MT low 2HKOs off that speed at will. Also, is Multitarget shuffle-friendly? I think that'd be very good for the sealstone.
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I am 100% okay with that one being movable.
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I'd be okay with forced MT, 33% reduction, shufflable Multitarget, then.
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How about this for NeoSpeed: 10% base increase in speed, then a 20% increase, per turn taken capping out at 200% (so the last one is really only 10%). The same restrictions apply in that if the person is killed they lose all the speed bonuses. I think I'll say that the speed also can't be increased by anything, regardless.
And this for Speed?: Turn one speed is 130%, however after that turn is taken the character is reduced to 90% of their average speed. I'm not sure if I need to put the speed increasing penalties on this.
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Since we're discussing sealstones, here's an idea I've been mulling over. If it get traction we can hash it out to finesse and balance it a bit more.
Crisis Sealstone: At the start of every fight the teams HP is reduced to "crisis" level for the purposes of activating abilities such as Cover, Red Zone, Limits etc. If there are multiple crisis levels, the characters hp will be reduced to the lowest level. Characters from games without a crisis level will have their health reduced to 25%. Additionally, the first hit of damage that a character takes in a fight cannot reduce them below 1 HP.
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That sounds very difficult to balance around. Why yes let me stick Cloud w/Cover in my team, let him open with a free Blade Beam each fight, and then make it take 2 hits to actually kill him. And Ayla now gets free Dino Tails of MTy Doom and when somebody is faster, it doesn't matter because she takes 2 hits too. Maybe throw Cecil in and whoo yet another person that must be chopped down via auto-Cover before the real targets can be hit. Of course two MT pokes means sure doom for the team if they somehow go off, so... that sealstone is really wacky, since scrubby fights like Crono + Nina3 + Jude are dangerous, as are very tanky bosses who can't be blitzed and have multi-acting MT, but anything else dies horribly.
It's not a bad idea, but having it affect the entire party + Focus Sash that doesn't require full HP effect is kind of egregious. Instead I'd recommend something like:
Crisis Sealstone: At the beginning of each fight, the equipped party member this is on is reduced to X% health as if by enemy damage. Pick X on Floor 1, it can't be changed (though the Sealstone can be moved.)
That still seems decent, and the fact that there are only a few characters it makes sense with isn't as much an issue since it only affects 1 person! It still means initiative limits / turns for FF7 characters, the Ayla dropping Dino Tails at high speed strategy mentioned above, but at least the holder can still be KO'd fair and square.
Re general sealstone philosophy, I agree that there's something to be said for attempting to balance around a "neutral" no-sealstone as the default, the Dungeon's moved away from that and it never really was true. Even the really old inverting Speed? was basically a pure buff that was just limited to going on very slow characters. So yeah, go buff the MT sealstone.
Neph, I note with dismay that Elincia STILL is not a legal pick in the Dungeon.
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With regards to FF7ers, I was thinking more of FF8 and FF6 when I mentioned Limits. I wouldn't see the hp reduction as filling FF7 or Lufia 2 style limit bars.
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Neph, I note with dismay that Elincia STILL is not a legal pick in the Dungeon.
http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php/Full_List_of_Dungeon_Participants#Princess_Elincia_Crimea.2C_Fire_Emblem_10
Your move.
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I will be officially making the Speed stealstone changes as mentioned earlier and also changing Firefly in the following way:
In addition to its normal effect, all members of the bearer's party (including the bearer) have their effective speed reduced to .9x.
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I will be officially making the Speed stealstone changes as mentioned earlier and also changing Firefly in the following way:
In addition to its normal effect, all members of the bearer's party (including the bearer) have their effective speed reduced to .9x.
I really don't like that Firefly change. Speed is the important stat and cutting the team's speed is going to make it so that no one ever uses it. It also seems like a really arbitrary change that doesn't really fit with the sealstone.
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I would have picked Firefly for my FF13 team even with that change. Speed is the important stat but basically forcing large parts of the enemy team to skip round 1 is just awesome. (If you squint a bit, it's the same thing as a speed boost... it enables your team to do its thing on round 1 without interruption from the opposing team.)
I will grant the drawback starts really hurting on F7-F10 of the dungeon, where there are more haxy enemies who can do something broken that doesn't care about Firefly, but as is Firefly really trivializes F1-F5 almost regardless of the team assuming it's stuck on someone vaguely sane, and is still darn useful on the later floors.
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I would have picked Firefly for my FF13 team even with that change. Speed is the important stat but basically forcing large parts of the enemy team to skip round 1 is just awesome. (If you squint a bit, it's the same thing as a speed boost... it enables your team to do its thing on round 1 without interruption from the opposing team.)
I will grant the drawback starts really hurting on F7-F10 of the dungeon, where there are more haxy enemies who can do something broken that doesn't care about Firefly, but as is Firefly really trivializes F1-F5 almost regardless of the team assuming it's stuck on someone vaguely sane, and is still darn useful on the later floors.
I think your team is a special case because of the main character game over gimmick with Lightning which makes Firefly a necessity. It seems like we could come up with a more appropriate and less ridiculously costly solution. Perhaps something that cuts back on elemental resistance a stage for the wearer?
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Glen had suggested making the other members of the team take extra damage.
I could also get behind a "No healing" version, or... well, if it wasn't complicated, some kind of "Firefly only works above X% HP" or something.
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What if we made it so that all ST effects targeted at the team got drawn to the user. So ST healing and buffs would get drawn to the the user and couldn't be used on the rest of the team while the Firefly user was alive.
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Re everything ST: That also feels like an arbitrary and non-fun restriction - it won't matter for many teams, but teams it does matter for it does in an awkward and weird way. (To go into this more... suppose a team wants to cast an ST buff on someone other than the Firefly user in a particular fight. You'd get into weird debates about if the FF user could be exactly chipped to the right level in the previous fight so that the enemies kill the FF bearer for the team, but what about using worse armors, etc. Of course it wouldn't REALLY matter that much since all it'd mean in practice is that you'd use a team with MT healing & MT buffing.)
Re elemental resistance: FF1 Knight is basically the archetypical, standard Firefly bearer. He's just plain a tank without need for elemental cheesing. I don't think making Firefly only good on specific types of tanks is particularly interesting.
Re making other team members take more damage: That just makes Firefly even more defined by "have MT sweeping or GTFO." That's already the disadvantage Firefly has; I find having several potential weak points to be more interesting than having a single critical weakness, since that makes floor selection more interesting.
I like the speed penalty because there's a lot of things that can go wrong when you eat a speed penalty, but you still get the fundamental bonus of the buff. A speed penalty gives ST-heavy enemy teams a bit more of a fighting chance without making solid MT damage instant wipe material.
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If you're using the Firefly sealstone, then your team probably isn't that durable in the first place and lowering speed just compounds the problem. Bad durability and speed is a death sentence in the dungeon and most of the other sealstones that reduced speed have had their side effects changed. (I believe status symbol dropped the speed reduction because no on was using it). The most common trait of the Godlike picks is good speed. Cecilia, Celes, and Shania are the only picks who don't have a method of getting good first turn speed and they make up for it with ridiculous skillsets.
Personally, when I think of Firefly users I think of Worker 8, and cutting his elemental or status resistences would cut down on the amount of attacks he can absorb. You mentioned Knight, but I think that he also at least has a couple of good resist options. One other idea I had is making attacks that targeted the wearer have perfect accuracy, but that would cut down on evasion Firely setups and I kind of like those.
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When I think of Firefly, I think of Rody from Suiko3, with his awesome Firefly/Wall combo. Maybe a fair tradeoff for Firefly might be making the bearer unable to act for as long as Firefly is in effect?
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That could be interesting but still sounds a little harsh, maybe change it so that they could make no offensive action so they could still support the team with healing and buffs. It fits in a bit more of a Paladin role that way and at least most of the better walls (Worker 8 aside) would still have something to do even if it might not be their best option.
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dude, Firefly doesn't need to be designed around; it's not a disadvantage at all. It really does need SOME kind of nerf, and a notable nerf, and even then it's still a big advantage. Consider that the Dungeon does not really have MT OHKOs until F6 or so, and enemy ST offense that ramps over 2 PCHP in round 1 is fairly unusual. While by default it should go on a low-value yet moderately tanky member of your party, it's absolutely fine to stick it on DW1 Hero or whatever. So suppose it is on DW1 Hero - that's still 1 PCHP of durability to chew through, and THEN the enemy can worry about going for the reviver. And if there's 2 revivers they may need even more offense to actually get anywhere.
I'm not arguing that a speed hit won't hurt, because it will. But Firefly is still totally awesome because the Dungeon is rocket tag with most fights having turned by the end of round 1, and you're forcing the enemy team to spend round 1 very inefficiently. That is still amazing, and frankly would not make THAT many fights in Firefly teams that have already gone through the Dungeon change all that much. (Your old team, for example, would still require the extremely specific spoiler to W8 in badass MT physicals to really lose - speed is just not a huge concern so long as an MT OHKO or MT status can be avoided.)
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dude, Firefly doesn't need to be designed around; it's not a disadvantage at all. It really does need SOME kind of nerf, and a notable nerf, and even then it's still a big advantage. Consider that the Dungeon does not really have MT OHKOs until F6 or so, and enemy ST offense that ramps over 2 PCHP in round 1 is fairly unusual. While by default it should go on a low-value yet moderately tanky member of your party, it's absolutely fine to stick it on DW1 Hero or whatever. So suppose it is on DW1 Hero - that's still 1 PCHP of durability to chew through, and THEN the enemy can worry about going for the reviver. And if there's 2 revivers they may need even more offense to actually get anywhere.
I'm not arguing that a speed hit won't hurt, because it will. But Firefly is still totally awesome because the Dungeon is rocket tag with most fights having turned by the end of round 1, and you're forcing the enemy team to spend round 1 very inefficiently. That is still amazing, and frankly would not make THAT many fights in Firefly teams that have already gone through the Dungeon change all that much. (Your old team, for example, would still require the extremely specific spoiler to W8 in badass MT physicals to really lose - speed is just not a huge concern so long as an MT OHKO or MT status can be avoided.)
With some of the recent changes, some of the fights actually have MT OHKO damage now. The Shadow Yukiko/Wendigo fight hits a MT OHKO between the two and the Zog/Leopold fight on the Ribbon floor also combine for a OHKO with Char/Freezing Breath. I think Neph needs to look over some of the new fights. A lot of the middle floors have had a fairly decent balance of weeding out weak teams but not being overly difficult. Both of the floor 3 versions have gotten a lot harder and the new floor 5s are getting ridiculous.
I don't disagree that Firefly needs a nerf, but an all around team speed nerf is a bad and unoriginal nerf that has proven in the past to be a usage killer. I'm sure we can think of something more creative and more in line with the sealstone.
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Just throwing in support for either "Character cannot move while Firefly is active" or "Draws in all attacks that would potentially target them" (by which I mean, draws in enemy attacks and ally healing/buffs)
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Aren't Zog and Leopold exceptionally slow, though? Or maybe Leopold is faster, I don't remember.
I'm removing Wendigo from 3b with a sad face. I might put him on 3a, though.
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Zog is slow, Leopold is slightly below average (and since he double acts breath + desperate attack results in one very dead character), but they're both durable enough to take a round of attacks and it's on the ribbon floor so buffing to mitigate damage isn't an option.
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As for that Crisis stone, another interpretation might be "The character in question is treated as if they are at 1 HP for the purposes of health-related effects. However, this character cannot be healed."
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Hmm, that could be an interesting interpretation. The only problem is that I'd really like the sealstone's effect to be party wide because I think it could create some neat synergy, but a whole party without healing would probably be bad.
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Oh, I also just removed the healing debuff from Life.
dude, maybe make the effect party wide, but make it so that the healing for the team is reduced by some amount?
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I brought it up in chat, but Benjamin's section should probably mention that his Guard command enables him to cover another party member and take their hits. FFMQ's Defend is bugged and doesn't reduce damage... But the guarding makes Benjamin take the hit for MT damage too, and it does not focus damage (even if it normally would).
This seems like a pretty gosh darn nice trait considering his plethora of later status and elemental resists/immunities. Should probably remind folks that his MT is all split damage though (so sucks arse vs. large teams)
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So do you think we could add a No Guard pokemon like Machamp or would that be a bit too overpowered? No Guard makes it so that all attacks have perfect accuracy while the pokemon is on the field.
Something like
Machamp (3.0)
Pros: No Guard is pretty cool and can have some devastating effects on the right team. He has great damage and the some of the usual Pokemon buffs and debuffs. Strong start as well.
Cons: No Guard can screw over a team just as easily as it can help. Very slow and No Guard's effect disappears if he's KOed.
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3 feels a bit high since, glancing at a level-up list, Machamp doesn't get anything especially interesting skillset-wise outside Leer (which, to be fair, is pretty cool) until endgame, and slow ST 2HKOs are pretty unimpressive for a dungeon PC. It really depends what the available options are to abuse No Guard with.
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No Guard only affects moves that are either used on or by Machamp; it doesn't have any impact on teammates' moves.
Honestly I suspect it's more of a liability than a benefit in the dungeon considering Machamp's speed, it makes every single status 100% on him even if the accuracy is crap normally.
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No Guard only affects moves that are either used on or by Machamp; it doesn't have any impact on teammates' moves.
Honestly I suspect it's more of a liability than a benefit in the dungeon considering Machamp's speed, it makes every single status 100% on him even if the accuracy is crap normally.
Yeah, I was mistaken and since it only affects Machamp it's probably not that exciting. Maybe make it into a sealstone or something?
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Sure. I'll give it a shot.
FF5 Bartz (4): Can do anything ridiculously well. Lacks speed though.
RH Marco (Body Charge) (2): But hey here's 130% speed to anyone who needs it. Also has an awesome support skillset of his own. Marco is RH's MVP for a fucking reason.
SH3 Hilda (2): 100% ID along with lots of buffing magics and such. Also Entrance. Later on gets MT full healing and the nutty awesome SH3 revival (revives with CT)
FF9 Eiko (1.5): MT healing, damage, and revival. Later on that's MT revival at that. Also Carbuncle twinking silliness is a possibility.
L2EBC Jean (1.5): Fast status and physical damage. *Shrug*
A fairly weak team because it has no "RAR MT OHKO BEFORE AVERAGE SPEED MOVES" nonsense that seems like a requirement in the dungeon. At least not for a few floors. Turn Shifting and Bartz were a lot better than I thought. Especially Chemist, which can do so many ridiculous things.
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Actually, this team has some -amazing- potential. Fast durable Marco will become a force to be reckoned with through Trans-turn hax starting floor 3, and Trans-turn on Jean will double up her status odds and ST offense (which will be game-best for quite a while). Trans-turning Bartz is also sweet -and- trans-turning Hilda into Entrance into Hilda double also has some pretty funny potential applications (or two Hilda buffs, etc.) - not to mention this should also help Eiko too, since she has the skillset, but not the stats. Not to mention it's a team with three potential revivers/healers in the long run. I'm pretty interested to see how this will pan out. I totally should start brainstorming some Trans-turning/Turn-Shifting teams myself, there's so much untapped potential.
EDIT: For someone who claims not to think very well in Dungeon terms, you have quite a few good ideas for teams, Pyro (to the point that I honestly think you have a pretty solid Dungeoning mindset, in spite of what you say <_<). Joooooooooooiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin uuuuuuuuuusssssssss~
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Jean's damage is game-best on Floors 4 and 5, and then is decent on Floor 6. This is really memorable in-game since Disc 2 has solid bosses, but thanks to the magic of scaling, her damage falls off to below-average on Floor 7 and beyond as Hiro & Lemina's damage explodes. Kind of disappointing. At least she has MT options which even when seemingly meh are good to have, and agree that a double-shot of status via Trans-turn helps up the respect a lot.
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Worst comes to worst, she can be TT'd even then for immediately buffing and benefitting from it, though this is obviously less efficient than the kinds of options Pyro's team will potentially have, but you never know. Iunno, it just hit me how fucking -good- turn-shifting is and there are so many potential damage dealers offered by that lineup.
EDIT: Also, Phoenix for Eiko is like floor -4-. That's pretty nuts good!
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And because Pyro is the bestest:
Team Let Us Glitch The Dungeon Together - AKA Pyro Is A Genie In A Bottle
Shania (3.5), Sacred Slayer (Speed?, 2.0), Yuri Hyuga [SH1] (3.5), Raja (1.0), Nei (1.0)
Okay, this is not so much -glitching-, but uh nobody has used Nei forever? Lots of healing and revival, too, and hey Turn Shift Song of Madness into mass physical OHKOs. I guess I'm overusing Shania, but she kinda deserves it, and I want to see just how good can Yuri1 be with the on-paper potential. Thought about using Dorothy for once, but I don't think she meshes with this particular team too well.
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Just as a reminder: Sacred Slayer runs out of gas rather fast. She has enough MP for 10 Turn-Shifts at endgame and nothing else. That said, Sacred Slayer's Turn Shift is as a move waaaay better than Trans-Turn. It gives SS the accumulated CT of her target, and then goes and Doubles her RFX anyway. Accelerate was only a part of the Unlimited Turn Works nonsense in WAXF. Also bear in mind that Sacred Slayer isn't that fast even Body Charged... she's only 107% or so. She *is* pretty crazy durable. ~140% Pdur and 200% Mdur.
Here's to Turn shenanigans in team fights. *Cheers*
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Yeah, it's not so much the base speed, but the longer-term potential. Also, with good enough team members, maximum efficiency dictates she'll need to Turn Shift once in most fights, twice in a few others.
EDIT: Your point is very fair, though. I think I'll swap BC with Speed? and see what I can do with the spare half-point.
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If you can get some, I'd recommend some form of MP recovery. Shania can get some back with Mind Assault, but all the other members of the team have really shallow resource pools.
Seconding the props on BC Marco, Pyro. That's a really neat idea.
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Yeah, another team because it's not like I have anything better to do right now:
Emily (3.0, Multitarget), Aeonless Yuna (3.0), Nina4 (3.0), White Rose (2.0).
Eh sure why not. With new Multitarget (33% reduction rather than 50%), Emily now has spammable crazy fast 2HKO damage, and Yuna herself can hugely benefit from it as well. Nina and White Rose contribute for extra MT offense and healing/revival. Let's see if this team goes anywhere other than the gutter, especially considering the lack of status for the early floors. If I want Emily to ST nuke shit or I need Yuna's stuff to be MT, I can move the sealstone around. Let's see if a four-people team can make waves yet again (for all that it'll never be as crazy as Monkey's Rikku/Ginny/KOS-MOS team).
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reposting fungineering
Emma (1.5)
Bartz (Thief) (4)
Gastly (1.5)
Gilder (1.5)
Pikachu (1.5)
Nall (1)
Press Turn sealstone
dem alt strats
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And now, for something completely different (I totally just do teams for lulz when I have nothing to do):
Team "I Didn't Even Bother With A Name This Time"
Dorothy (3.5), Chemist (2), Kurando (2), Rufus (2.5, Multitarget), Bow (1.0)
Guess the theme of the team!
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Multitarget sealstone's effect is being changed from 50% reduction to 33% reduction, so 75% status will be reduced to 49.5%.
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Yup. And worth giving the new toys a try.
2.5 Elincia
3.0 Yuna (Multitarget)
2.0 Arnaud
2.0 Stocke
1.5 Eiko
Elincia ubers Yuna & Arnaud's evade with Authority and is a dangerous ST threat, especially since Arnaud can toss Slow Down on speedy targets so that they eat 4x Amiti. MT sealstone makes Yuna a solid MT healer and MT buffer; FFX Protect / Shell are pretty good already so merely a 34% drop in damage is still totally useful vs. magic or ITE physicals. This is the core of the team.
Stocke is a tanky extra reviver (with a dash of evade thanks to Elincia) who can also switch in the right person for a job; e.g. 2x Arnaud Sleep attempts, 2x MT Holies, 2x Elincia beatdowns on a tanky boss that can't be allowed to live. Should give the team extra flexibility. For the final slot, the most Elincia themed person would be Marisa, but this team already is worried about ITE physicals and that would be even more ST when the team needs more MT options, so Eiko it is. On one hand, it gives physical attackers something useful to do rather than ramming into super-evade or Stocke's tankiness, but you know, if Eiko is enough of a threat to require takedown, that's fine by me, they've got 2 other revivers to work through in that case. More importantly, Eiko offers some more MT damage options, and much earlier than Yuna's F6 Holy. Sometimes you just need MT to work a group down and threaten 'em, and she does that, along with provide more MT revival, healing, Esuna, dispel, elemental nulling nonsense, etc. Icing on the cake is that when facing enemy mages with physical backup, Yuna can drop MT Reflect and Eiko does not care at all thanks to Reflect Null allowing her to still spam MT healing all day.
I think the team has some amusing combos & synergy, if lacking some raw kill-or-status-them-right-away power. In other words, they get a fun & exciting ride.
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Multitarget sealstone's effect is being changed from 50% reduction to 33% reduction, so 75% status will be reduced to 49.5%.
50.25%, unless you meant 34% reduction.
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Multitarget sealstone's effect is being changed from 50% reduction to 33% reduction, so 75% status will be reduced to 49.5%.
50.25%, unless you meant 34% reduction.
Indeed, you're right.
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The Elemental Advance sealstone is being changed so it removes enemy and player weaknesses as well as removing nullification and absorption from enemies.
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And now Andy's team would kill to have that sealstone (Basically are not going to get any better usage than that team).
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I may make an executive decision and retroactively put that on his team.
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Should I go for ST or MT floor peeps?~
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Jane (2.0)
Geno (3.0)
Hilda (2.0)
Ness (3.0) (Firefly)
Mia (1.0)
Obviously there's still a few kinks to work out. Not sure if I want to run this as a proper team. Thoughts?
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Well, for starters, I don't think you want to have only -one- dedicated healer on your team, let alone saddle him with Firefly. Don't forget Ness only becomes a death tank at floor 6 at best, and he's still complete status bait - bad combo for Firefly spamming. Past that, not really sure what are you trying to accomplish with Hilda, since Geno's offensive buffing is at least just as good and his ID comes out much faster - her healing is very late and it's stuck on her slowest form to boot. Stacking buffs looks like the idea, but your team is -not good- at stalling as is. Only one healer, primarily ST buffs and subpar durability across the board are not what you want for setting up death buff sprees, and even the speed spread is erratic.
Jane is also not very useful in that setup, since she's not really setting up proper death blitzes and otherwise munches on points you'd want for so much other stuff, like healing and physical damage. You're running out of gas really fast if you rely on Ness' MT damage and you'll constantly need it to finish MT blitzes. It just feels like you're trying to do way too much at once with your team without putting a finger exactly on -how-. The synergy on that team is very poor, you need to work out what you actually want with that concept.
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Team Neph Fanservice
TimeLord (4.0), Mei-ling (2.5), Eiko (Body Charge, 2.0), Ricardo (1.5), Mime (1.0)
So, it hit me nobody had used TL to his fullest in ages, nor has Ricardo seen much time in the limelight at all in a while. So, why not attempt something here? TL's spot as basically the ultimate status whore/turn manipulation bastard in the dungeon is pretty much guaranteed here. He can snipe the stone vulnerable, grant people doubled offense, troll single targets with TimeSlip, say fuck you to a goddamn lot of single fights even with OPF OverDrive... there's plenty of potential there. But I need batteries if I'm using TL (OverDrive may be once-per-floor, but it still rips out all of your MP and you don't want TL to be useless for the rest of the floor if he needs to press the "fuck.dat" button in, say, the third fight), and that's where Ricardo chimes in. MP healing and SH buffs and early revival -and- MT healing, not a bad idea. However, Ricardo has sanity issues! And his healing isn't all that good as the game goes on! That's where Eiko and Mime provide! Eiko with Body Charge is actually crazy good - okay durability, really fast (since she's average on the -dot- at base), her eventual borderline 2HKO damage turns into straight 2HKO - and it's even MT! - and then there's MT revival that doubles up as offense in the shape of Phoenix, which is floor fucking four. And Mime can compound Ricardo's MP healing or mime the SP songs if things go sour for songstalling. Or just mime anything else. But this team lacks fast physical damage! And that's where Mei-ling comes in! And she even gets to contribute with an extra handy buff in LightSword, nasty MT damage in MegaWindBlast -and- another source of revival in StarlightHeal. So it goes. Elemental reliance could be a bitch, but I'm not really worried.
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It like the idea of exploring some of TimeLord's options in the dungeon. TimeTwister is interesting because it's an initiative skill, but it copies the action at the end of the round. It could be useful in tandem with someone like Aika to make your team immune to magic, but still able to heal up at the end of the round with magic, by having another healing character drop a healing skill which would be repeated at the end of the round. Alternatively, TimeLord+Marco+Sacred Slayer for ultimate turn shift nonsense.
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CT:
Well if you go for the Multiply floor, you may get away with MT stasisrune hype to buff with before actually beginning the battle. Beyond that, the ST floor has some mean damage that you'll want a lot of Revivers/healers for... the very first fight features two fast OHKOers for crying out loud! Not sure you can handle it with your awesomest reviver (Mesa) brought down to ST, and I don't know if Vanille had it there or not.
I think you'd want the MT floor but maybe I'm fooling myself buying into MT Stasisrune hype.
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Wouldn't Stasis Rune technically freeze everyone on both sides? >_>
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Thanks Pyro~
Yeah I was thinking ST might be rough because I wasn't sure if people would see Vanille having revival yet, I have it pegged as F3 in the mini guide for FF13 characters for the dungeon thing I did but yeah. It made sense at the time since F5 was Pulse and Vanille learns Raise earlier than Hope but. Two revivers on the ST Floor (Mesa/Priest here) just doesn't cut I think.
For MT I never thought about MT Stasis Rune hype, I didn't know Mesa had Statis Rune yet ~
I was thinking more Neo Speed Fang + MT Steelguard + MT Cure/Curasa Vanille + MT Cure/Cure 2 Priest while Mesa MT Victory Runes/Maelstorms and Peppita aims for MT chaos/freeze hype. Fang could try and sneak in MT Slow (if for some reason you don`t see her as having Slowga yet) off a quick Steelguard > SAB Buffering as well. Buffering is the mechanic in FFXIII famous for Vanille Death Commando 999`999s hypes but it actually isn`t exclusive to SAB > COM, it works with Firaga/etc > COM, Curaja > COM and with defensive carry overs like SEN > SAB while trying to poison Mission 64 and the likes, well buffering froms with everything really to various degress. Granted SEN > SAB would only work vs the next attack so she`d have to switch back after.
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StasisRune is the second-to-last Rune Magic spell and is certainly not F3.
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I'm not sure MT Steelguard would work? I imagine folks can't MT their own basic defend commands, for example.
I was being ditzy on StasisRune. It was just an amusing thought at first.
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Strongest team to ever enter the dungeon.
Team 5
Raquel (WA4) (Speed? Sealstone) - 2pts
Nei (S3) - 1pt
Marle (CT) - 1pt
Mint (ToP) - 0.5pts
Priest (FFT) - 0.5pts
Total: 5 Points
Debating this a little bit, but this is more or less the right idea. Maybe Lucia over Marle or something silly?
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Hmm looks like I might be screwed either way then =/
Can I ask some questions of NEB? (other peeps feel free to answer if they have input)~
1# Can Mesa have Freedom Rune for F3?
2# Can Priest have Holy for F3?
3# How fast is Mesa at this stage?
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I'm not sure MT Steelguard would work? I imagine folks can't MT their own basic defend commands, for example.
I was being ditzy on StasisRune. It was just an amusing thought at first.
Steelguard isn't really a basic defend command though. it is a self-target command, though, but I think those are generally seen as MTable.
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Hmm looks like I might be screwed either way then =/
Can I ask some questions of NEB? (other peeps feel free to answer if they have input)~
1# Can Mesa have Freedom Rune for F3?
2# Can Priest have Holy for F3?
3# How fast is Mesa at this stage?
FreedomRune is one of the initial batch of rune magic (i.e. storebought), and those are easier to learn in general, so yeah, F3 sounds very reasonable.
FFT Holy can easily be afforded by the time you can use Wizard Robes, and I'd see F3 as having Wizard Robes, so yeah. You might not be able to have more than one of Holy, Raise 2, and Reraise, though.
Saga Frontier speed is a huge headache depending on what you see each race getting at different points. I'd probably just take Mesarthim as her endgame speed for sanity reasons (which is to say, notably above average).
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Oooh thanks a lot for the inputs! =) This should help a lot I think~
I was worried about Xeno Sleep and whether my team had enough magic power to blow up Raquel ~
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In case Magic missed my last post on his most recent team: I just noticed that there's definitely something to be said for a Geno Boost'd Firefly user synergy game. That's actually a pretty good idea (slap it on a tank, Geno Boost, first turn is a PILE OF LAUGHS unless MT's involved). Picking up an actual tank that can also benefit from the offensive boost might be a cool idea - like, say, Firefly Knight (since he's tanky both ways)+Geno Boost. It's oddly effective, and Knight is -cheap-. I mean, 1.5? That leaves you plenty of room to round up your team with whatever else it needs, 6.5 can hand you even a Godlike with reasonable room to spare for a five slot team, and Geno hands you a lot of blitzing support options besides pure buffing shit (I hype him as a high-profile offense-geared 3.0 nonstop for a reason, even if he doesn't 2HKO either durability. Even ignoring the fact Geno Boost is one of the best ST buffs ever running off crazy first-turn speed, his offense is good enough to contribute solidly on both ends -and- Geno Whirl is the bane of ID-vulnerables everywhere). I don't think Jane has space in teams built up on defensive gimmicks, though, she's meant for setting up deadly blitzes off crazy good speed.
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Jane's mostly there for initiating a Geno Boosted, Entrance'd PSI Rockin/Flameria/Blizzard before enemies can move floor 4 and on. That said, I do believe I still need to rethink my team, as with as it is... It's just not that good, really.
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Possible Floor idea: Phase-based Combat! Like FE and Disgaea and all those games that let the player's team attack first and then the enemy's team. It could make for an interesting option. It seems easily skewed towards the player at first: the player has initiative to set up all their buffs and their synergy game. However, if you make the enemy team correspondingly strong, it means that the survivors all get their turns at once to lay out the player team. Could be an interesting exercise.
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I like that idea.
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Jane's mostly there for initiating a Geno Boosted, Entrance'd PSI Rockin/Flameria/Blizzard before enemies can move floor 4 and on.
Yeah, that's a lot of buildup. You probably don't want to go for teams whose payoff starts showing at midgame and onwards without having strengths to back themselves up, particularly considering your history with teams (most of them fell because they had -huge- issues early and didn't synergize that well). I honestly think Jane can't make team blitzes better if they weren't already good - i.e. she can't save teams, she can only make teams that are already good stronger, and the rest of her skillset just sucks.
EDIT: Not to mention Mia damage sorta sucks and you're spending a lot of resources - particularly on Hilda - for blitzes that take three PCs to deal barely above PC HP at best (on Mia, probably not even that much - it's possible she fails to OHKO average with Flameria even Geno Boosted -and- Entranced. Ness' is a bit better, but holy crap PSI Rockin' is expensive and not damaging for the resources it blows, and he'll be often busy healing as it stands. Generally, you want to be OHKOing average with a single buff if you're going the MT blitz route).
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Well, I have no comment as to Magic's proposed new team, but I entirely disagree with claiming the rest of Jane's skillset sucks. As pointed out before, Sucker means she's a Firefly rune user and arguably should be increased in price. 90% MT provoke + super evade is really freaking good and trivializes a whole horde of fights when enemies don't have MT. Firefly is one of the absolute best effects available in a rocket-tag environment like the Dungeon.
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Is her evade that good from the beginning? I know it's hard to tell.
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Is her evade that good from the beginning? I know it's hard to tell.
Yes. All the stats she excels at are curve-breaking from the very beginning - arguably, her evade is at its worst at -endgame-. You know something's up when you look at her effective endgame evade and think "man, only 63%? That's kinda disappointing".
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Well, I have no comment as to Magic's proposed new team, but I entirely disagree with claiming the rest of Jane's skillset sucks. As pointed out before, Sucker means she's a Firefly rune user and arguably should be increased in price. 90% MT provoke + super evade is really freaking good and trivializes a whole horde of fights when enemies don't have MT. Firefly is one of the absolute best effects available in a rocket-tag environment like the Dungeon.
I hesitate to hype Sucker as a viable move outside pure theoretical scenarios until I actually see typical enemy levels at the points she's available at -and- the practical effect. All the times I tried using Sucker, it was a waste of time. I probably should rehook my PS2 and replay ACF.
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Well, I'm willing to re-evaluate her, but only if there's a consensus on Sucker.
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Hence why "I should replay ACF". Even in order to test hidden immunities. Also worth doing because Split Infinity himself sometimes blunders on formulae.
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Since we're coming to a close on the current teams that were posted, if any of you have new teams that haven't been posted on the last few pages, please re-post them.
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So, do I want to repost my five billion teams
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Reposting my most recent team I created.
Snow
Lenneth
Zalmo
Citan
Rena
SSL sealstone.
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Reposting a plethora of teams.
Team Neph Fanservice
TimeLord (4.0), Mei-ling (2.5), Eiko (Body Charge, 2.0), Ricardo (1.5), Mime (1.0)
Team "I Didn't Even Bother With A Name This Time"
Dorothy (3.5), Chemist (2), Kurando (2), Rufus (2.5, Multitarget), Bow (1.0)
Team Phantasy Star 4 After-School Special
Rika (4.0), Rune (3.5, Body Charge) Kyra (2.0), Raja (1.0), Nall (0.5).
Team "NelisXBernadette OTP or Priest is the Best 0.5 ever"
Rika (4.0), Nelis (2.5), Eileen (2.5), Bernadette (1.5), Priest (0.5) [Elemental Penetration]
Team "March of the Supervillainesses"
Shania (3.5), Mei-ling (2.5), Hildagarde Valentine (3.0), Eiko (1.5) Mint (0.5) [Body Charge Sealstone on Hilda]
Team Let Us Glitch The Dungeon Together - AKA Pyro Is A Genie In A Bottle
Shania (3.5), Sacred Slayer (Speed?, 2.0), Yuri Hyuga [SH1] (3.5), Raja (1.0), Nei (1.0)
Team "Trying to Make a Heavy Out of Emily"
Emily (3.0, Multitarget), Aeonless Yuna (3.0), Nina4 (3.0), White Rose (2.0).
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You are so Snow~
/me giggles and rubs it's tummy
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I'm clueless.
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Just being a CT!~
I meant it as a compliment though :)
By the way I finished with the SO3 DM testing for future reference/finished doing the characters I still had to do @ SO3 AVGs F3/early dungeon. I didn't know whether end of disc one/L30~ was legal for disc one or not (probably assumes a Triple EXP interp either way) so I went with the lower level take.
*Notes I went with skill/proficiency and Berserk for the characters who had it -
Albel - 30'900~ (Shockwave Swirls, Berserk)
Adray - 2160~ (Chaos Tides, no Berserk)
Cliff - 62'000~ (Hammer of Mights, Berserk)
Fayt - 27'020~ (Side Kicks/Berserk)
Nel - 15'300~ (Ice Daggers, Berserk)
Maria - 31'500~ (Scatter Beams, Berserk)
Mirage - 15'900~ (Hammer of Mights, no Berserk)
Peppita - 24'000~ (Magic Hook)/23'000 (Frozen Daggers) (Power Dance > Magic Hook/Frozen Daggers. no Berserk)
Roger - 57'000~ (Fiery Axe, Berserk)
Sophia - 1150~ (Lightning Blasts, no Berserk)
Total DM - 266'930
AVG - 26'693
*All the moves were chained to their full extents as far as Berserk or no would allow them, Nel's Ice Daggers has higher Fury costs than the others so her chaining is limited even with Berserk which is why her offence is lower here (and she doesn't have a better move at lower levels), skill proficiencys, Power Dance was a L5 (100 uses to L6) I just took L5 because I used one of my low level solo files to do the testing and I had to level characters/skills up >_> L5 seems reasonable for Power Dance here though if Peppita gets it F2 in the dungeon it might be a higher LV depending. Usually through general play/normal file I'd have it higher than L5 pretty sharp time wise myself through controlling Peppita as leader and quickly chaining/cancel bonus comboing it which you can do with her as leader/especially since she gains proficiences for it so rapidly compared to other character skills for esp the first few SLVs but YMMV.
Bah. You guys were right. Peppita's offence does fail on the early floors I guess =/ I was so sure she was going to hit average, but once I got figures for the characters I still had to do =/ Some leniency on Power Dance LVs might allow her to still do so/a bit above but yeaahh. She's really hurting for Berserk.
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Reposting a plethora of teams.
Pick one.
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Team "March of the Supervillainesses"
Shania (3.5), Mei-ling (2.5), Hildagarde Valentine (3.0, Body Charge), Eiko (1.5), Mint (0.5)
Done and done.
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Citan (Body Charge), Rand, Nina [Breath of Fire 3], Priest [Final Fantasy Tactics], Guv
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My team has apparently gone missing somewhere, but it was something like NeoSpeed Yuna, Yukari, Yosuke, Demi and.. Teddie, I think?
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I am dropping Peppita to 1.5 in light of her damage.
Also, I am changing Resourceless to only stop you using the same skill more than once in a row.
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Souji, Virginia, Mew, Ditto. For sealstone...uh, either Neospeed or MT sealstone will probably be used, maybe firefly?
My attempt at a stall team in todays rockettag dungeon, and by stall I mean the team just attempts to spoil the crap out of as many damage types as possible through Souji/Ginny hax and Mew/Ditto copying them.
I expect it to trainwreck but in hilarious fashion.
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Time for more blowing up in faces.
Yuna/Lucian/Shiho/Rune/Mew
Multitarget Sealstone.
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I totally made a page on the Museum for http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php/Old_Dungeon_Teams
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^^ Thanks! Interesting data. Good for some ideas~
/me dances!
Wheee. What about the whole Peppita does upwards of 3x AVG GT HP/MP DM with Power Dance > Faerie Friend thing though? >_>
So let's try this again - Mesarthim, Fang, Vanille, White Rose, Peppita
Any better? (might change Fang to Raquel or Maya or look for someone tanky I dunno)
Also was there any discussion on whether Vanille should go down in price any in light of her apparently not getting Dispel/Raise till F4? Given Hope doesn't get Raise till Stage 8/two whole Crystarium levels later than Vanille means his dungeon gaining of it goes off later now here as well, probably F6 being generous.
Edit: ... anddd seeing Raquel at 2.0 makes the whole Peppita at 1.5 thing make sense/me feel better about that. It doesn't mean they are bad :)
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Well, Peppita's durability is always going to be a little bit lower than the others (I think?).
She's a difficult person to price, ultimately, I think.
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What's the rule regarding Resourceless and stuff that's OPB but doesn't take any resources like say Ryu3's Bonebreak or Chrono Cross Elements?
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Judgment call, I believe. I personally wouldn't see Resourceless as affecting Bonebreak, since it doesn't run off actual resources. Chrono Cross, the elements themselves are resources, and I think I'd see them affected.
EDIT: Stuff like Ryu2's G. Dragon, though, would badly need a special clause regarding it, because holy shit Ryu2+Resourceless is broken as HELL.
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I expressed this idea in chat but wanted to ask it here:
What do you think about the idea of allowing respec'ing at Full-Heals? (changing equips/ability setups/accessories/etc). As it stands the dungeon doesn't reward versatility in options as much because you have to pick one setup to deal with 5 fights, which is quite restrictive. Allowing respec'ing would up the power of some more versatile PCs and reward options over raw power, which seems like a nice idea. Also the enemies being able to select accessories/equips/skillsets to spoil the team while the team has to accommodate 5 fights can be a bit jarring. Allowing it at Full-Heals fits with resetting limits and such too.
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I already allow changing equipments in a fight-per-fight basis and set some generally lenient speccing guidelines (allowing Hilda to change forms besides the one set up at the beginning of the floor), but expanding that wouldn't be bad, I think. One setup per floor honestly doesn't make a lot of sense to me, although in some cases it's necessary. Allowing skill setup respeccing on specific points could flexibilize dynamics a fair deal, and I generally like guidelines that stretch a team's options in the dungeon.
tl;dr I'd be happy with that change.
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What's the rule regarding Resourceless and stuff that's OPB but doesn't take any resources like say Ryu3's Bonebreak or Chrono Cross Elements?
It doesn't affect moves which take all resources. I would probably tack on that it also doesn't affect OPB moves.
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I already allow changing equipments in a fight-per-fight basis and set some generally lenient speccing guidelines (allowing Hilda to change forms besides the one set up at the beginning of the floor), but expanding that wouldn't be bad, I think. One setup per floor honestly doesn't make a lot of sense to me, although in some cases it's necessary. Allowing skill setup respeccing on specific points could flexibilize dynamics a fair deal, and I generally like guidelines that stretch a team's options in the dungeon.
tl;dr I'd be happy with that change.
Pretty much agree with this. I don't see any reason why characters can't change equipment between battle. You can do that in like every game ever (and if they can't in their game then they can't here either).
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I have no opposition to the idea, though ultimately it seems like it primarily affects the job-changing types (Bartz, Ramza, etc) and I don't know what to do with them.
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Luneth would probably be the one helped by this ruling change the most, since of all the people that CAN change jobs, he's the first one that comes to mind that can't mix and match roles from other jobs into his current one.
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Job changing should not be changable (Would...somewhat defeat the purpose of pricing, as this limitation should already be factored into what they cost and have not really heard people saying that job switchers are overpriced). No real overall thoughts on equip change on full heals as I don't think it has really come up yet. It will matter potentially for hinging on single status blockers and perhaps some setups for later floors where there are more Full Heals.
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Equipment changing comes up -constantly- one way or another and the very idea of impeding equip changes in a fight-per-fight basis is downright stupid, especially considering how the general dungeon design feels tailored to consider equipment swaps. That's not even taking into things like equipment dynamic changes that could happen in the middle of a floor and swap general stat dynamics, like Raquel's midgame offense spike with Macha Brand and Mia's speed jump with Wind Cane. I cannot fathom why you wouldn't allow equipment changing in the middle of the floor, in-between fights, and I never followed that particular guideline because it was so egregiously dumb. I honestly haven't seen it enforced in any way either, and people don't seem to take it to heart, so, if nothing else, the static equipment clause should go away and never turn back.
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Competently built teams do well in the dungeon. I got fairly late in with a freaking DQ theme team last time. this team will be slightly competent.
Ted, Zerase, Chemist, Ninja, Tia
MT sealstone. Durability? What durability?
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MT Sealstone on Chemist, I gather?
EDIT: Also, that's -a lot- of fweem. Ted for the first few floors will be slinging MT 2HKO off a L2, while Zerase, you know the deal. Later on, Judgment - oh jesus christ MT Sealstone on Ted, that's MT 1.4x PC HP overkill at -endgame-, for the love of god. Chemist will make sure this is utterly and endlessly abusable if you get any breathing room for MP healing.
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Honestly Super's WHOLE TEAM is built for the MT sealstone. Ninja is fast with excellent damage that gets status attached and has Throw for element stuff (?), Ted is ... yeah Judgement is retarded like that, Zerase is built around MT but not for the first few floors, MT Chemist is just tops because hey MT Auto-Potion and MT Phoenix Down (which revives with CT to some extent or another). Tia has MT but Lufia2 is mean to MT'd magic in terms of power reduction (not as bad as FFTMQ, but bad)... if the MT Sealstone can be moved around then this will prove to be quite a cool team. Outside, you know, being OHKO'd by too many things because Ninja is your most durable PC. Yeah.
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The MT sealstone -can- be moved around! Yeah, everyone benefits from it to some extent, but I reckon Zerase won't need it (she gets her first L4 at floor fucking -two- and Chemist gets storebought Ethers at floor 3. Oh humanity). Tia benefits weirdly from it, but it's a net gain for her regardless. Ninja loses the 2HKO, though, and his status is kinda late, so he's less interesting about it. Just... man, Ted and MT. Ted and fucking MT.
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Hopefully Ted will never have to face a situation where he takes a hit, or else my team will explode. I just put that team together in a few minutes, was going for an effective use of the MT sealstone.
Chemist and Ted benefit hugely from it. Tia does to a lesser extent, but by the time her offense picks up Ted will be in 'make things go boom boom' range.
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My team has apparently gone missing somewhere, but it was something like NeoSpeed Yuna, Yukari, Yosuke, Demi and.. Teddie, I think?
Just do you know, you have half a point to work with there since I moved Yuna down to 3.0.
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Equipment changing comes up -constantly- one way or another and the very idea of impeding equip changes in a fight-per-fight basis is downright stupid, especially considering how the general dungeon design feels tailored to consider equipment swaps. That's not even taking into things like equipment dynamic changes that could happen in the middle of a floor and swap general stat dynamics, like Raquel's midgame offense spike with Macha Brand and Mia's speed jump with Wind Cane. I cannot fathom why you wouldn't allow equipment changing in the middle of the floor, in-between fights, and I never followed that particular guideline because it was so egregiously dumb. I honestly haven't seen it enforced in any way either, and people don't seem to take it to heart, so, if nothing else, the static equipment clause should go away and never turn back.
I think the reason why No Equip-changing is a thing is because if you're allowing them constant access to the Menu between fights, why the hell aren't your healers being allowed to spam menu spells to get everyone back up to full health before the next fight?
This is why I am okay with Equipment changing at Full Heals. I assume this is literally the team getting to a Save Point and using a Tent or equivalent, so why not let them access the equipment menu?
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Equipment changing comes up -constantly- one way or another and the very idea of impeding equip changes in a fight-per-fight basis is downright stupid, especially considering how the general dungeon design feels tailored to consider equipment swaps. That's not even taking into things like equipment dynamic changes that could happen in the middle of a floor and swap general stat dynamics, like Raquel's midgame offense spike with Macha Brand and Mia's speed jump with Wind Cane. I cannot fathom why you wouldn't allow equipment changing in the middle of the floor, in-between fights, and I never followed that particular guideline because it was so egregiously dumb. I honestly haven't seen it enforced in any way either, and people don't seem to take it to heart, so, if nothing else, the static equipment clause should go away and never turn back.
I think the reason why No Equip-changing is a thing is because if you're allowing them constant access to the Menu between fights, why the hell aren't your healers being allowed to spam menu spells to get everyone back up to full health before the next fight?
You know, I honestly considered that before. But the difference struck here is a matter of balance, mainly. Healing in-between fights breaks fights open far more than any equip-changing ever will. Also, the caveat for not allowing equipment changing hits things like mid-floor (in case you consider that) equipment dynamics and massively inflates idiocy like equip breaking (storebought equipment breaking screwing you over for an entire floor is neverendingly stupid, for instance. Nowadays, it's far less of a factor, but back in the days where we had ORLANDU AS A FLOOR 3 ENEMY, um yeah that clause was fucking dumb).
I personally advocate allowing equip shuffling in-between fights in a fight-per-fight basis instead of only at full heals for one particular reason, though: the idea that a single floor should contain no equipment change break is pretty dumb, and the solution to avert that is giving -all floors- at least one full heal. That's kinda inelegant. I'd rather just institute free in-between fights equip shuffling and be done with it.
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I always thought that the equipment clause was to prevent characters from picking and choosing elemental and status resistance options. It seems like it creates a really large rift between the haves and have-nots when it comes to equipment options.
Also question, where do most of y'all peg Zalmo's durabilty factoring in his MP Switch. He's got about 1000 health between his HP and MP, but he has to deal with that boss scaling in FFT when he has support. I just want to check if people actually respect his durability (I see him at about 2.5PCHP myself) so that I don't get screwed once it's too late to make a change. If most people peg his durability below 1.5PCHP then he probably deserves a price drop because that's pretty much all that sets him apart from the other healers.
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I always thought that the equipment clause was to prevent characters from picking and choosing elemental and status resistance options. It seems like it creates a really large rift between the haves and have-nots when it comes to equipment options.
It... honestly doesn't do much to mitigate that rift. In fact, it doesn't really do -anything at all-. The gap -inevitably- exists anyway and it's humongous even with a clause like that, and its effects on average are felt mostly late in the game outside FF9 and SH, which are poster children for elemental walling abuse and statusblocking cheese, respectively. All I see that clause doing in practice is screwing over even more teams over equipment crap, and that's not very fun. Most fights where those are relevant generally carry multiple statuses or elements at -once-, so I'm not sure what that even accomplishes other than making floors more annoying to interpret.
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Since Jo'ou is apparently on the warpath, I will say that I like disallowing equipment change (and also disallowing Job / setup change) for two reasons:
* It makes voting easier. There's too damn much to keep track of already. It makes running a team easier too, as you pick one setup and hope for the best, rather than getting to obsess over Ramza's job set for each individual fight.
* It does keep in check things like FF9 elemental cheese, so if you want to wear a midgame armor that has Fire nulling or whatever, fine, but you'll eat the worse armor the entire floor. This isn't something people commonly are able to abuse in-game.
Now, to be sure, I know that there was an old idea in the Dungeon that any kind of equipment changing at all was forbidden, which was of course ridiculous (e.g. DQ8 Jessica must pick whip or staff for the FLOOR despite having free choice per turn in-game). So I know that Neph has since allowed weapon changing when the system allowed it, and I know I've always allowed equipment changing for characters with explicitly legal equipment changing in battle - DQ8 Weapons, Ramza if he set Squire's equip change, etc. Anyway, I've always viewed the dungeon as a series of "random" battles before a "boss" battle, and in most games, you don't know exactly what enemies you'll fight when, so you need to have a general use set of equipment up. If you really fear the fire monster random that you know you'll have to fight, sure, you can equip fire resistance, just you'll also have that gear on for other enemies. Something like "pretend you know the 5 fights you must face on the Nyarlie Dungeon floor, but not their order, so pick an equipment set that's appropriate for defeating all 5."
Also, I'm pretty sure everyone already lets broken equipment be fixed at Full Heals (=Full Resets) anyway and there was never a rule against that.
That said, the biggest concern is still #1, ease of voting. So I say keep it as is, or at most allow equip / setup changes only on Full Heals.
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Since Jo'ou is apparently on the warpath, I will say that I like disallowing equipment change (and also disallowing Job / setup change) for two reasons:
* It makes voting easier. There's too damn much to keep track of already. It makes running a team easier too, as you pick one setup and hope for the best, rather than getting to obsess over Ramza's job set for each individual fight.
The only way I could disagree more with you would be if you were trying to extoll the moral virtues of slavedriving to me (disregard the venom, it's merely rhetoric). With the no-equip change clause, you have situations like "oh they have a thunder-walling equip and a fire-walling equip and there are two different fights where they want one but not another and NOW I'LL HAVE TO MULCH WHICH OF THEM THEY WANT MORE OH WAIT IN WHICH OTHER FIGHTS THE STATS OF THESE ARE RELEVANT". With changable equips on a battle-per-battle basis, this situation becomes "the PC handles both fights, the effects on stats are reduced to -this- fight, move on". In practice, no equip changing makes battles more complicated rather than simpler because macromanagement is far less intuitive and far more long-reaching than micromanagement.
* It does keep in check things like FF9 elemental cheese, so if you want to wear a midgame armor that has Fire nulling or whatever, fine, but you'll eat the worse armor the entire floor. This isn't something people commonly are able to abuse in-game.
In-game, if the armor is storebought and the person needs it for only one fight, there's no reason why the individual won't do just that. In-game, you don't run a whole dungeon underequipped for one determined fight unless you really like hamstringing yourself. Which is a playstyle choice, but intentional hamstringing should have no place in the dungeon as an institutionalized design device.
Anyway, I've always viewed the dungeon as a series of "random" battles before a "boss" battle
This makes your defense even -more- incomprehensible. On series of random battles, you can, guess what? CHANGE EQUIPS IN-BETWEEN SINGLE FIGHTS. In games with fixed randoms or visible randoms, you can freaking tailor your equipment for each set - you certainly can't account for all possibilities, but you can account for the majority of them at least. In a game where you could know all the randoms you fight beforehand, you would -always- tailor your setups to each individual fight in terms of pure efficiency (player laziness not withstanding, but accounting for that -also leads to poor design-). Like you do in games like SRPGs! No equipment changing for a floor utterly flies in the face of in-game micromanaging as a general rule. Are you seriously telling me you'd run a crappy fire armor that immunes fire because the boss, and only the boss, uses fire damage? The dungeon already strips players of a gamut of flexibility options available in-game. Making things even more set in stone against the player is -not- something it needs. I agree with the idea of limiting skillset setups in the cases of job-based PCs like Bartz given how in-game there are choices to be made regarding that kind of switch (you want to build a job for abilities/stats, that involves spending time in a class, you have to ponder whether a situational setup is worth the advancement loss, the works). Equipment, though, where the punishment choice happens mostly in a battle-by-battle basis and not long-term outside of cases where equipment ties into your skillset/learning (and this is inherent to the nature of skillset and learning system, not equipment)?
Also, I'm pretty sure everyone already lets broken equipment be fixed at Full Heals (=Full Resets) anyway and there was never a rule against that.
And what about the fights -before- the full heal? In the games where equipment is breakable, you ALWAYS have the option to re-equip post-battle. There's never a situation where you have to run a gamut of enemies with no equipment because of a single whatever break. You can argue that you can't buy the exact equipment back immediately in some chains (which is true), but even so, you always have the option to rearrange with SOMETHING instead of idiotically running naked. The way this happens, a single equipment break early in the floor can screw you over for the entire duration of it unless -every single break fight is before a full heal or every floor with equipment breaking has a full heal as well-, which is both obnoxious and binding in terms of design. Making bad design decisions and then trying to find ways to turn them acceptable don't make the bad design good. This is a lesson just about every SMT game ever teaches ad infinitum.
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My own views on this were always as follows:
The battles were intended to be like Gold Saucer, they were fought one after another without any breaks. However, in light of how things have changed over the years of doing this, I like the idea of them each being independent "DL" fights, I don't really have any problem with people being able to change their equipment for each fight -- that's usually taken into account in the actual cost of the character, and if it isn't then I should fix that.
Ultimately I don't think there's a solution that solves both problems.
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Outside, you know, being OHKO'd by too many things because Ninja is your most durable PC.
Chemist has more HP than Ninja. </nitpick>
Also Zerase has a bit less pdur but waaay more mdur and is probably as such the most durable PC in practice.
Remarkably little opinion on the equipment debate here.
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Outside, you know, being OHKO'd by too many things because Ninja is your most durable PC.
Chemist has more HP than Ninja. </nitpick>
Also Zerase has a bit less pdur but waaay more mdur and is probably as such the most durable PC in practice.
Remarkably little opinion on the equipment debate here.
Make a Dungeon team.
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Re making voting easier: The problem is that if someone's equipment varies by fight, then you have to do things like say "oh Eiko's effective PCHP is .67 vs. physicals now, but it's .85 in this other fight, and .73 in this fight." If there are worries about what equipment should be used for the floor? That's the runner of the team's problem to clarify what setup they want to use. They pick one, and then it's easy for everyone else - use that set. Only one person needs to worry about the "how much do I need thunder nulling for this one fight," and a dueler's stats stay constant and only need to be researched once.
Re the flavor of the Dungeon: Yes, that is one way fights can happen, but there's also the Gold Saucer style fights (see Nephrite) which are continuous and semi-random which is exactly what I'd bring up, where there's no trip to the menu in-between. More generally, most games don't have Chrono Trigger style set enemies in set locations. If you're travelling in a dungeon that has 5 different random encounter sets, you can't optimize for each one individually, because encounters are random and by the time you're in an encounter, you're not on the menu screen anymore and can only use whatever rules exist for in-battle swapping (which does exist for some systems!). You need to have a setup that can deal with ANY of the 5 random monster types.
Don't get me wrong, if you see each fight as right before a save point where you can save, get in a fight, see exactly how the enemy fights, then equip perfectly to "spoil" the fight, and do this 5 times in a row, you end up with your interpretation. And sometimes that happens in-game. More common, though, is the case described above where you say "huh I'm using Eiko's best armor because it's the best all-around for the encounters here, even if a spoiling armor is better for one specific fight," unless of course that one specific fight wipes you, in which case you DO use the suboptimal-otherwise armor and deal with it elsewhere.
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Feeling less antagonistically argumentative today! Regardless, we obviously take different strokes of what one sees as simpler, then. Under the interp you go by, you have to assess the entire floor under a specific setup, then assess the entire floor under -another- -and- then make that full floor assessment under the default setup if you force them to make that choice. If they can pick and choose, you may have to study what that does to that specific fight, but it's self-contained, which, to me, simplifies the process overall. Not to mention that my fundamental problem with that equipment enforcement is that the -player- should make that choice -and- it should be made specific on floor setup, and there's no equipment enforcement set by the player whatsoever in-dungeon besides Ginny's mediums (and honestly, I think it's better that way). One interp allows for simple handwaving, the other forces some sort of macromanagement from both sides in order to be fair to the player. And I quite frankly prefer to streamline this process as much as possible.
An aside to enforcing that equipment rule is that it hamstrings defensive setups further by limiting a team's options on spoiling fights, instead encouraging people to kill everything faster and harder -even more-. I don't like adopting interps that make the dungeon's rocket tag nature worse by proxy. Funnily, such flexibility has never been less necessary than it is right now (not allowing equip swapping at all back in the days of Orlandu as a dungeon enemy on the fourth floor of floor three with no full heals anywhere turned that setup absolutely NUTS, for an example. It's really necessary to consider how enemies -will- act in favor of the dungeon as a whole, and this comes up in many contexts one way or another. Most recent example? Atma Weapon rasping Jane in order to screw over her Sucker spamming on later fights the floor fight Magic's last team lost), but it's the principle of the thing.
Ultimately, though, what I'd advocate as a general guideline is: no set rule on equipment changing, but pointing out the existence of differing interps. This way, if someone wants to view it differently, sure, go ahead, but it's not something people building teams will have to worry with at depth. Simplifying team management and construction is a good thing!
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My team has apparently gone missing somewhere, but it was something like NeoSpeed Yuna, Yukari, Yosuke, Demi and.. Teddie, I think?
Just do you know, you have half a point to work with there since I moved Yuna down to 3.0.
I noticed that, and I think I spent a while looking at options, but given the idea is NulShock and smash here, I don't think there's anyone in particular that really helps for those extra points? Once the Electric weakness is out of the way, the team is hilariously good for the cost.
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Actually, is it? Yuna's offense is terrible until floor 6 and her awesome support skillset is mostly wasted by her needing to spam ThunderNul whenever Lightning comes up. Yosuke's never a very good damage dealer and his utility has issues (Tentarafoo is inaccurate, ST evade buffing until floor 7 is a waste of time). Yukari has a lot of MT damage, but her offense nears game-worst with getting zero in the way of boosts and amps, and she's frail and average speed. Teddie is even frailer than Yukari and is actually -slow-, not to mention his buffs don't come up until floor 5 at the earliest. Demi's magic durability has issues in general until Barrier comes up and her durability doesn't start off so hot either, not to mention her good damage is highly limited until floor 5 as well.
There's a lot of healing and revival (all PCs heal! Almost all PCs revive!) and the abundance of crowd control helps mitigate the crappy base offense, but the actual stalling needs work due to the limitations brought by the weakness gimmick and the actual blitzing power isn't really there (I.e. you're not generally finishing tough battles in two turns or less). Nor is the long-term offense, really (you can do better than lategame Tarukaja off a slow, frail character as far as dungeon options go. To make things worse, your second-best damage dealer -immunes offensive buffs-. Whoops). The setup would be a -lot- better if it involved protecting only one PC from the weakness and trying to build a cohesive whole, but as is, the team is brought together by a liability, and that gimmick that pretty much hangs itself on the roof the minute the likes of Crono knock on your door. ThunderNul isn't even any good if there are multiple thunder-slinging foes...
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I agree with Pyro's orginal suggestion and Snow mostly. I've been pretty flexible on it as far as it goes already with allowing the likes of ARPG characters/anyone else with the ability to change weapons in battle in game to do so in the dungeon and yeah allowing stuffs like example Hilda changing her skill sets before important/boss fights also makes sense to me :)
Pretty much stuffs which can be changed on the fly as you're going through the game picking up skills/etc without any excessive grinding like multiple Job mastering/etc~
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Well, Peppita's durability is always going to be a little bit lower than the others (I think?).
Yep! Peppita's durability is a tad on the underwhelming side especially vs nukage. In game this is not a problem because you can use Convert Damage to MP and eventually make her an MP tank with like 60'000~ MP and MP Regen via equips/synthing/accessories, also Magic Dance and yet also still manage to max ATK via Power Dance, since Power Dance frees up her ATK boosting slots this allows her more for MP boosters so she can get more MP than any other potential MP tanks who are using their slots for ATK boosters. Of course you could just have Maria -in- the same team as Peppita and make Maria have like 70'000~ MP while Power Dance maxes ATK but I digress (they can't both get that much MP respectively because's there's a limit on the MP boosting berries/food before factoring in MP boosting equips/etc too) Peppita also has her counters which in game combined with her MP tanking potential make her pretty sturdy both as leader as well as on AI and if you're maining her you can just rapid fire cancel chain combo her dances into each other to extend the dance invincibility frames/windows for extended invincibility times but yeah. Without all her hax/in the DL/dungeon she's kinda frail :P A glass cannon (eventually)~
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Some questions -
*Are Soul Rune/Light Sword MT/targetable? Do they boost Speed?
*White Rose's ID (FlashFlood if I remember right) and Blindness (FlashFire?) do work in the dungeon right?
*Should I replace Fang with somebody like Asellus or Raquel? The idea is kinda to get Soul Rune/Light Sword/Power Dance up -before- the main physical blitzer goes not after/Turn 2 >_> Or how would Neo Speed or Speed? on Peppita work?~ I could also think about losing Vanille but then I lose the more accurate defensive debuffs (plus I also want the debuffs to come out before the main physical blitzer too)
*Alternatively I was thinking of going with a Toro baitish team of Maya/Mesa/White Rose/Vanille/Peppita~ Thoughts?~
Thanks :)
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I don't remember exactly if you can target SoulRune, but I -think- you can. On the other hand, SoulRune, if I remember correctly, is a Gift spell, so you don't get it until at least floor 4. Not sure if it's the best option for speed buffing either, since it runs off the target's base speed and it's only ST. If you're emphasizing that kind of strategy, you often want something more akin to Saner or Acceleratle (SoulRune has its own perks, of course, being an omnibuff, but still. I think that, in order to maximize its usefulness, you want it to enhance someone who already enjoys some degree of straight-up stat dominance and who can make good use of it. Example: SoulRune on Speed? Raquel, to stick with people you do know). LightSword is self-only, but the parry effect affects the whole party. FlashFlood doesn't give rewards (stat gains or money/items) if you use it to end a fight. This makes it useless for a lot of people, myself included. Blind just isn't very useful period.
No real thoughts on the rest of the questions.
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Yosuke's never a very good damage dealer and his utility has issues (Tentarafoo is inaccurate, ST evade buffing until floor 7 is a waste of time). Yukari has a lot of MT damage, but her offense nears game-worst with getting zero in the way of boosts and amps, and she's frail and average speed. Teddie is even frailer than Yukari and is actually -slow-, not to mention his buffs don't come up until floor 5 at the earliest.
Guys, are these widespread interps? Yukari's one of the best damage dealers for the majority of the game (pretty much until Amps start showing up, since her stats make up for the lack of Boost), Yosuke has solid damage of both types, and Teddie joins in F3, when his damage is absolutely fantastic, and Matarukaja is Lv 42, with the end of F4 being Lv 45. (Maraku-, on the other hand, is probably F6.)
I can't really comment on Demi, since I've barely played PS4, but if these interps are pretty common, then I'll have to change my team and.. probably all of these three need lower prices, because shit, this makes them practically useless.
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Guys, are these widespread interps? Yukari's one of the best damage dealers for the majority of the game (pretty much until Amps start showing up, since her stats make up for the lack of Boost)
They really don't. Even with just Boost, in-game she was consistently below Mitsuru and even -Koromaru- for her offense, which I'd instantly peg as "below average damage". Floor 1-3, she's solid enough, but she both gets the higher-level spells a bit later than other PCs -and- never gets boosts and amps. The high magic stat doesn't compensate for the multiplicative boosts.
Yosuke has solid damage of both types
"Solid" as "middling 3HKO as its absolute best", and he sees a gigantic lull in his physical damage. Until floor 6, he's stuck with fucking Sonic Punch for physicals, and that starts sucking at floor 3! Due to the stupid physical offense jumps starting floor 6, he dips from "averagish" to "5HKOs unless he wears Auto-Taru armor", and that's not what you want in a team whose offense is already anemic.
and Teddie joins in F3, when his damage is absolutely fantastic, and Matarukaja is Lv 42, with the end of F4 being Lv 45. (Maraku-, on the other hand, is probably F6.)
Okay, my bad on Mataru, L42 is a -lot- better than I thought. I'd dispute his offense being fantastic, though: he doesn't start with Ice Boost at a point where PCs start getting it. Earlier game, the damage averages are also quite tight, so you don't see huge damage leads either. I don't think he'll ever 2HKO anything at -any- point in the game without buffs.
I can't really comment on Demi, since I've barely played PS4, but if these interps are pretty common, then I'll have to change my team and.. probably all of these three need lower prices, because shit, this makes them practically useless.
Well, Demi... her immunity to attack buffs doesn't come up often, because that's really not what she's about, and her perks honestly make up for her deficits (Medic is absolutely hax, MT revival and full status healing is a bailout of doom and destruction even if the healing isn't that good, and mdurability buffing that's MT, powerful, permanentand persists through death = holy shit that's amazing. PS4 defensive buffs are some of the bestest things ever). As for Yosuke/Yukari/Teddie pricing... honestly, I consider both Yosuke and Teddie overpriced. Wingman just doesn't cover niches very well and the Thunder weakness for the first three floors can spell instant loss to a team because P4 weaknesses are broke as fuck against you. Teddie has -that- issue for the whole game and frail, slow healers are a huge whatever (on the other hand, you really don't have much lower to go from 1.5 >_>. And Teddie has -some- perks. Matarukaja isn't that potent a buff at base, since it's not even quite 1.5x to damage, BUT it affects both offenses, and -this- is hard to come by and can see itself slapped into a lot of parties). Yukari... well, without that weakness, she'd be worth a 1.5, probably, maybe even a 2.0, the healing skillset is quite potent - she's kind of a Nina4-lite, and look at how Nina4 fares herself. P3 weakness doesn't spell QUITE as much doom for a whole team either, even if it's considerably worse individually.
Ultimately, though, I think you just emphasized putting in people with crippling elemental weaknesses too much. Just because you can have a move that immunes one casting of that weakness doesn't mean you should pile them up like that, especially when three of those people give the opposition extra turns to work with when slapped around. One suggestion could be keeping Yuna and Teddie, slapping him with Body Charge (suddenly he looks very attractive with 30% more durability, damage and speed for only 2 points, and even if his damage needs work by the end, the MT emphasis off non-liability quickdrawing power is a nice boon), then building up the team's strengths with other PCs.
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Awesome teams > "good" teams, and "Team NulLightning" is pretty dang awesome. (I don't know P3, though, so will defer to others on if the characters are overpriced and Yoshi can sneak an upgade in.)
Re Jo'ou: Think we've both said our piece, but hamstringing spoiling, especially equipment-rotation-based spoiling, is a feature not a bug from some perspectives.
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Re Jo'ou: Think we've both said our piece, but hamstringing spoiling, especially equipment-rotation-based spoiling, is a feature not a bug from some perspectives.
Indeed. Bad design can be and often is deliberate in a lot of cases. Doesn't make it less obnoxious to me, though. I just personally don't agree with design that purposefully limits your options in very base ways, especially when the fundamental designs are already heavily stacked against the player.
I also mostly chimed in on Yoshi because he seemed to sincerely think the team was better than it actually is, baroquely elaborate design aside. Details, details!
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Yosuke I'm happy to move to 1.5, Yukari is good enough at 1.0 in my opinion.
Teddie... I dunno. He seems too good for 1.0 to me.
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Yoshi instead of using Yuna, why don't you just slap on the Elemental Advance seal stone on the team cause Neph changed it so it now removes weaknesses from the team (although the seal stone list hasn't been updated to reflect this). Then you could add in someone who can help your teams damage because they already have enough healing. Looking over the list, another one of the PS4 characters could help. DQ3 Sage is also an intriguing option if you're familiar with him.
Also, still no opinions from you guys on Zalmo's durability?
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Teddie is one of those weird cases whose pricing actually feels right -after- you consider Body Charge. I'd also argue that being overpriced in the 1.5 range isn't a big deal, since 1.5 lies in the range of low-impact picks and whatnot. Yosuke at a 2.0 is clearly overpriced, though. He's one of those cases whose in-game usefulness just doesn't translate into DL numbers. His Red Mage bent is favored by the game's enemy design decisions in a very specific way (wind weakness on enemies being pretty much the most common one, midgame floors putting in entire formations of dangerous enemies entirely spoiled by Tentarafoo, in addition to his solid stat mix). The environment he sees in the dungeon favors him magnitudes less.
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Oh, I know full-well that I don't build good teams, I build interesting ones (or, well, try to.) That said, it's not interesting to see a team scrape its way to F4 and then get blown up in predictable fashion.
@Teddie price: Even with BC, he seems overcosted. BC Teddie is still below average speed, if I'm not mistaken, and still has below average durability, even if it's not horrendously bad any more. Yeah, the damage suddenly becomes pretty sweet and he can possibly last long enough to throw around buffs, but that'll be rare and the fights he can last that long in.. are probably decided before he even gets that far.
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It really depends on your build and how you mitigate Teddie's problems. Him being 1.5 means he'll -never- be a high-impact pick, regardless, but he's very versatile for a 1.5, and with BC, he has options worth a 2.5 rating on paper. Compare Teddie to most Light healers - he has comparable durability to most of them and notably better resources and alternatives.
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The only way I could disagree more with you would be if you were trying to extoll the moral virtues of slavedriving to me (disregard the venom, it's merely rhetoric). With the no-equip change clause, you have situations like "oh they have a thunder-walling equip and a fire-walling equip and there are two different fights where they want one but not another and NOW I'LL HAVE TO MULCH WHICH OF THEM THEY WANT MORE OH WAIT IN WHICH OTHER FIGHTS THE STATS OF THESE ARE RELEVANT". With changable equips on a battle-per-battle basis, this situation becomes "the PC handles both fights, the effects on stats are reduced to -this- fight, move on". In practice, no equip changing makes battles more complicated rather than simpler because macromanagement is far less intuitive and far more long-reaching than micromanagement.
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Oh yeah, I dropped Yosuke by half a point to 1.5.
Teddie I think is still good there since he starts with Mediarama and Bufula.
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Boring Cover Cloud build MK#whatever
Cloud (3.5)
Geno (3.0)
Elincia (2.5) (Multi-target)
Yulie (1.5)
Priest (0.5)
Pretty simple. MT can be moved around on Geno/Elincia/Yulie/Cloud as needed. The idea was to work with MT Elincia because Amiti is lolbroke. Cloud covers for peeps and even takes BOW SHOTS?! Added advantage of Geno being able to quickly boost someone for added defensive padding is always good. Elincia/Cloud/Priest can also get some status restoration in there and there's plenty of healing revival, although that's not Elincia's real purpose.
ALTERNATIVELY...
Yu (4)
Yuna (3)
Arnaud (2) (MT)
Raynie (1)
Yukari (1)
Depending on how Mind Charge/Power Charge work with MT, might go with this team instead. Yuna/Yu/Arnaud are the crux of the team with the bevy of support options. Yu has massive physical damage which he can pick up early. If he has to take a weakness, Yuna can usually cover for him 75% of the time. MT Slow Down is still insane at reduced effectiveness. Seriously. At end game, it drops people to 58% of their speed, which means its effectiveness early is even greater. Also, there's MT Illusion and MT Shutout for defensive options. MT Hyper would usually be awesome, but loses quite a bit with this mage heavy team. Raynie's got some additional magic damage and some MP recovery, which is an added bonus. Yukari is a third healer, and has some MT damage.
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Cloud doesn't get Cover anymore, I thought?
@Yoshiken: I like the idea behind your team, I'm just concerned that you are going to come across a single status-slinger and die horribly. Perhaps consider replacing NulShock with Delta Shield?
Equipment-wise... for flavor reasons, I agree with SnowFire. However, I already find myself kneejerking more dungeon voting based on DL Knowledge of "What this PC blocks with their entire equipment set", not just "The general default best option"... So I'm probably supporting Jo'ou already without realizing it.
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Neph, is Dhyer's last team slated somewhere to be used? If it's not the case, here's the team:
Dorothy (3.5)
Body Charged Porom and Palom (3)
Terra (2.5)
Crono (2)
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Neph, is Dhyer's last team slated somewhere to be used? If it's not the case, here's the team:
Dorothy (3.5)
Body Charged Porom and Palom (3)
Terra (2.5)
Crono (2)
Dhyer wanted to postpone it until he found some things about Dorothy that I don't know if he ever found out.
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Do you remember which things? >_> Maybe those were cracked already.
EDIT: Man I'm nosy.
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Something about Dorothy's Overclock, I think.
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Turn order is defined before the round's beginning in WAoO, so the speed boost doesn't apply for the turn it's cast. This I tested somewhat extensively. For the boost itself, I -suspect- it's based off Dorothy's magic score, but it's very potent regardless: after casting it, I had Dorothy getting all her four turns before Delphi's first, for instance. Those are all the issues I can think of one could normally bring up, but Dhyer could say better.
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I am going to be boosting up Marco to 2.5 and see how that goes.
Also, I may be repricing the P4 folks with Golden out. They get a lot of new skills but all of them keep their weaknesses.
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2.5 seems a bit too much - Stocke at 2.0 has the same kind of game (via Switch rather than Trans-Turn, the downside to Switch is not TOO bad) and he's faster and tankier. I guess he misses out on MT status healing & Marco's sleep game, but Push Assault > Grapple in the Dungeon usually, and he has his own Fire damage for variety if he doesn't want to hand his turn over.
If Marco gets a price hike, I'd say 2.0 to him & Raynie and Stocke to 2.5. (That said, there are lots of combos that go off really well with Jane, so I'm not sure that should totally be held against him.)
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To Snowfire: I'm pretty sure you're the only person who actually allows turn swapping in the Dungeon that I know, and, considering the characters' general pricing, I've been generally assuming they don't get to do it in the Dungeon either unless they're swapping turns with other members of their own cast (otherwise, they'd all require pricing changes). If Neph explicitly enforced the ability to use swapping, I'd consider it as well, but I honestly think he's more likely to take the opposite stance.
Also, there's a fundamental difference between Switching and Trans-turning: Marco in practice gives any other given PC a -second- turn, while the other RHers simply swap turn orders. This is quite a bit more potent than you'd think.
EDIT: P4G repricing honestly is kinda pointless unless the entire playership carries over.
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Again, I think you're being too reactionary with the changes. Marco has been good, but not overpowered at a 1.5. 2.0 is probably more appropriate, but 2.5 is way overpriced. As for RH turn shifting, I'd allow them to swap turns with other characters who have turn shuffling parts in their battle system like BoF4 or some of the WA games.
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I'll try 2.0 then.
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Jo'ou, can you please clarify why you're "pretty sure" that no one agrees with me? Dark Holy Elf has said that he's not a fan of allowing Switching and I can't recall anyone else. The stat topic strongly advocates Switching, it's a core mechanic of RH, and people have generally allowed switching in Futurama / CK's tourney / other random tournies like the team tourney. Certainly Eruca doing so well in Middle twice requires Switch hype for her strategy to work. Anyway, if voters (most voters?) have allowed switching on enemies, they darn well better allow switching on friends. I'd rather RH characters have their price hiked if need be (and I'm not sure such a need exists) and actually function like they do in-game then to have Switch turned off. It's far from overpowered for most teams, anyway, just it obviously works well with Jane.
As for Marco vs. Stocke, Switch & Trans-Turn are identical if you're willing to eat the defense penalty. Stocke switches with Raquel or whatever, Stocke's turn at Raquel's init rolls around, Stocke switches with Raquel's next turn. End effect: Raquel gets 2 turns at the two character's initiatives, which is the same as what would happen if Marco Trans-Turn'd to Raquel. (Okay, and Trans-Turn is a spell, so it can be MT'd by the MT floor, eaten by Runic, etc.)
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swirltch is much more limited in the dungeon. it only looks 10(?) turns into the future. switching means that the strat you mentioned before may work once, but you MUST let the target get natural turns after that or there will be no instances of that PC to switch to!
trans turn is much better for it. especially when the dungeon has as many as 10 fighters in a battle.
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I'm not a fan of switching the dungeon at all myself. One of these things were it feels like the game playing (and certainly don't think it's being priced in. Stocke is a 2 because of durable early revival with solid MT options. Dungeon has shown that strong early revival is an awesome thing).
I wanted to test out the speed boost. If it doesn't work turn 1, I think the main synergy my team had going is gone.
Still "mehish" on equip switching myself. I was always thinking about random fights where you don't know what's coming up next (I also places more emphasis on people with single status blocking). But just my random thoughts.
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Lilka's speed buff is the only tb speed buff that I know of which works turn 1. It can now be made MT via sealstone for chibi Follow Me! with the rest of Lillas benefits.
Switch is like FE counters as far as I am concerned. only theew are fewer RHers and it is an INTERESTING trick instead of a quite frankly cheap and boring one. And like I said it is only good turn 1 if that.
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Jo'ou, can you please clarify why you're "pretty sure" that no one agrees with me? Dark Holy Elf has said that he's not a fan of allowing Switching and I can't recall anyone else. The stat topic strongly advocates Switching, it's a core mechanic of RH, and people have generally allowed switching in Futurama / CK's tourney / other random tournies like the team tourney.
I'm pretty sure you're the only person who actually allows turn swapping in the Dungeon that I know
Emphasis mine. For all that now that Pyro votes in the Dungeon, he's the second person I know who allows it - and the two of you are the only people I can think of who openly advocate for the relevance of switching in either a Dungeon or a DL environment.
Regardless, Dungeon voting and DL voting are two different beasts. I couldn't care less about how a PC in the DL fared in a tournament for gauging in-Dungeon performance, and all the anedoctal evidence on voting patterns I've seen -in-Dungeon- certainly doesn't show me turn-swapping as an empirically touted factor either (even on the RH fight on floor 3 that was Bluelike-broken, it was a complete non-factor. What broke the string was the fact there were two Trans-turners and two revivers, making for an easy Overdrive loop that's very hard to stop). -However-, I will put forward that I'm with Dhyer regarding allowing turn-swapping for Radiant Historia characters. It's a characteristic of their system, not of the characters themselves. I'm okay with allowing them to turn-swap with characters from their cast and/or enemies of the game, but not with any other PC/enemy. I don't give the entire party FE counters and doubles because Lyn is on the team. I don't allow Dorothy's entire party of Suikoden/FF/SoA PCs to hide in the back row while she hogs all the turns (while I'd force her to share ratio with Strawman if both of them were in the same team). I don't even allow SH2 PCs to combo with SH3 PCs (let alone comboing into people of random casts), and SH2-3 share quite a few similarities in that particular mechanic.
I'll also note I've -never- seen you advocate stuff like Ricardo comboing into, say, Raquel, which makes the adamant defense for RH swapping -weirder-. RH's the only cast I've seen you defend as getting to share that kind of system mechanic with other casts.
EDIT: As an addendum to FE counters, the reason I ultimately don't see them like Tally does (both ends counter and are countered) ends up being the fact that basically -every game ever- has its own counter mechanics (Suikoden has its evade & counter measures tied to cast mechanics and skills in specific games, character-specific counters in most other games, etc.), in which case I won't have FE overrule -their- own systems. It does work on FE's favor most of the time, but them's the breaks.
As for Marco vs. Stocke, Switch & Trans-Turn are identical if you're willing to eat the defense penalty.
Not even close. If Marco did that+Trans-turning, Raquel would still have more turns than if Stocke swapped turns with her, because Marco -transforms his own turns into someone else's with no jeopardy to the other character's already scheduled turns-.
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Snow the correct analog to what you are sayingis FE pcs only countering other FE chars, which no one does.
Carrying on with this, do folks allow defend commans in the dungeon? I mentioned before that Benjamin can cover another PC with his... do people consider him capable of doing that?
But like I said, switching only emulates trans turn once or so. after that you have to wait for the guy you want to switch in to have natural turns show up again in the turn order. I suppose you could scale the turn bar to be 15 instead of 10 to account for larger teams but the core problem remains the same.
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Snow the correct analog to what you are sayingis FE pcs only countering other FE chars, which no one does.
Covered by the fact that counter mechanics of -some- sort exist in more or less every game ever and I don't throw them out either.
Carrying on with this, do folks allow defend commans in the dungeon? I mentioned before that Benjamin can cover another PC with his... do people consider him capable of doing that?
I personally only allow the unique aspects of defending in a certain cast (LoD's status immunity+10% Regen, BoF4's evade boost, so on), which is analog to how I view defending in the DL. I've never seen anyone coming up with defending in the Dungeon (and honestly, if it -did-, enemies could actually act on it themselves as well. If this starts coming up, holy hell this -will- make fights more convoluted and difficult), though.
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I have no objections to RH characters turn-swapping with other RH characters.
I also have no objections to Ben's Defend command being used to cover someone since it can only be used on one character.
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Not going to convince you on switching. The FE thing still amuses me but it always has.
I think defend coming up would be tops for interesting fights.
Revivers could defend to tank a bit until they are needed. Some folks could use it to build FP/Limits under an MT assault. Firefly users could tank it up (see Snow with firefly just recently). This adds a strategy layer and makes dungeon fights less rocket taggy! Good stuff.
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On the one hand, I feel more inclined to agree with the idea of enemies having to face -your- defend commands (like enemies have to in-game!). The flipside is that I'm not very happy with the idea of the Dungeon enemies themselves getting to whore it out due to how it'll inevitably benefit them more than the players, and they already have the advantages of counting with other fights in retrospect to ultimately bring a team down along with getting endgame setups throughout early and midgame.
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-However-, I will put forward that I'm with Dhyer regarding allowing turn-swapping for Radiant Historia characters. It's a characteristic of their system, not of the characters themselves. I'm okay with allowing them to turn-swap with characters from their cast and/or enemies of the game, but not with any other PC/enemy. I don't give the entire party FE counters and doubles because Lyn is on the team. I don't allow Dorothy's entire party of Suikoden/FF/SoA PCs to hide in the back row while she hogs all the turns (while I'd force her to share ratio with Strawman if both of them were in the same team). I don't even allow SH2 PCs to combo with SH3 PCs (let alone comboing into people of random casts), and SH2-3 share quite a few similarities in that particular mechanic.
Those analogs (outside the SH one) don't even work because in letting RH people switch, you are not letting other characters from other games use the switch command as well (and if you are then wtf). They are just getting the benefit of an RH character's skill, no different from something like a heal or buff.
Also, RH switches are a PC only mechanic, not a mechanic on both ends like FE. That's a big difference.
Anyway I allow switching on the rare occasion that I vote, but I'm usually too lazy to do that unless a tiebreak is needed or something.
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Thanks Snow :)
So White Rose would be relying on nuke potential/Charm/Phantasm Beast hype again for the MT floor? I guess the same goes for the Mystic Boots/etc coup de grace skills as for Flashflood?~
LightSword parry/evade effect sounds really cool, I'll have to fiend on ideas/set ups for that.
Random thoughts -
*After seeing the potentially catastrophic results/potential of Switch on the MT floor I'm afraid I'm going to have to re-evaluate my opinion on the extent of how/much whether or not I allow it. I agree with Snow that Switch wasn't even the main issue but it didn't help. In general though I thought about allowing it before but only by RH characters on other RH characters but yeah. Otherwise oh god Aht speed and/or hey Stocke isn't a slow dude and he can take a hit, good luck finishing him before he can Switch it up to someone else for shenanigans, yeaah =P
*Defend Commands - Sure, I'll allow unique stuffs like HP/MP/etc Regen, evade boosting defensive gimmicks, status resists, etc (LoD has the status resist thing as well but it doesn't get instant death if I remember right so it's not foolproof) Also allowing unique Sentinel stuff like damage reduction from Fringeward (and Improved Fringewards - Snow), role bonus, etc from FFXIII to translate to the dungeon and MT Steelguard/Mediguard on the MT floor since it's still a unique skill tied to a class/specific characters (even eventually in game with secondary roles some characters like Lightning/Hope never get Steelguard, etc at any time regardless if I remember right) and characters seem to be allowed to use non targetable stuff on the MT floor in general really, well with characters getting to MT all types of skills they wouldn't usually be able to do so, works. It's a sort of liberal, imagination becomes reality type floor ^_^
Universal defence commands or character in back row - damage reduction type defends like in the FF series I'm not so sure on. There is the argument that the likes of Garnet/Eiko, Aerith, etc are usually in the back row/it reflects their type of in game play styles so they should be allowed it in the dungeon but then you could be a CT w/th stuffs like physical twinks on Eiko/Aerith and having them in the front row :P Another type of character defending which is kind of head scratchy is Star Ocean 3's Guard Aura system or Tales of Graces F's own type of Guard Aura system, after finishing ToGF dunno what I'm going to do about that in the DL/dungeon yet. On the other hand SO3's more offensive/unique defensive gimmicks/playstyles/etc like Peppita/Albel's counters I do allow (even between them they are unique/differentiate in abilies, Peppita has two types of counter compared to Albel's one for example, her second one has longer invincibility frames, added MP damage, higher chaos status odds and mild GT compared to his but his takes him behind the enemy/he can chain from his counter O into an X physical attack/battle skills while Peppita's counter X is shorter in duration to her counter O, less invincibility frames, MP damage and lower chance of chaos rate she can chain her counter X into counter O battle skills or dances say Power Dance for say an extended invincibility duration with Counter X - Dance (since both counters and dances have invincibility frames built in)
General Counter Thoughts - On the other hand stuff like Universal counter attacks like also with regards to Tales of Graces (everyone can equip counter type titles I think) or stuffs like Stun, HP/Regen/etc Guard Aura type abilities like that triggering off SO3's Guard Aura system I'm not so sure on. Inclined to say no but will have to think more on this. Other stuffs like Fang's unique counter game with her Improved Counter weapons is a go yes though!~
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Can't comment at all on RH, and I don't really vote on the Dungeon much now, but I've always allowed Defend commands. As far as I see, it's just a basic skill, much like a normal attack.
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New Team:
Synergy Bonus
Nina, Ryu, Scias, Ursula, Cray, Ershin
Start with and have 3 out, subbing mechanism. Magic combos allowed. Can alter speed in the same setup manner that BoF 4 characters can in game. Granted, wipe out if front row wipes and obvious limitations on damage output and targets. We'll see how well this one goes!
Edit: Informed that actually need all 6 to die on full front wipe, so that's helpful.
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Guessing you get teh Ershins as a bonus? Should be fun to see how well the team pans out.
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Jo'ou: I think Talaysen mostly covered my response. Not really sure where you're going with your logic, but then "legality" is a misty idea in everyone's heads, so that's probably understandable. I do let FE Lyn get counters but don't magically let other (EDIT:non-) non-FE characters get counters; I let Stocke switch but don't let Ramza switch (because as Tal notes WTF). I certainly don't let SH3 characters combo with characters from other systems (although I *would* probably let them do it with SH2 characters), but combos are a different beast anyway. SH3 combos are a cooperative command that is "both" character's command for the turn, so there needs to be a reason that the 2nd character in the pair can join in a sensible fashion. RH switch is not cooperative at all. It is one character forcibly swapping turns with another and is 100% the RH PC command; no need for the other character to "agree" on the swap or anything. Proof: It works on enemies! I don't think RH enemies are "agreeing" somehow to be swapped, or are teaming up with the RH PC for the switch command! In other words, PCs switching with PCs isn't something that the 2nd PC can *stop* (even if the 2nd PC was hypothetically Charm'd or something). It's just the first PC doing the switch and then it happens.
Now if you want to say Switch shouldn't be legal because you're Elf and think that the entire cast having the command makes it not unique enough, then fine. There's no way to agree on what quite qualifies there, but I don't think the mechanical argument you're using fits.
On related notes, I generally allow Defend commands myself, with the asterisk that I also try and hew to the "standard" DL interp of characters in the Dungeon, and Defend commands traditionally have been banned by a lot of voters for whatever reason. Regardless Defend commands tend to spoil bosses who have some blatantly telegraphed charge-up attack you're supposed to Defend through in-game, and if that attack sucks in-Dungeon thanks to allowing Defend, I'm cool with that. The one main case I'd definitely enforce a Defend ban would be for Firefly users now that Firefly doesn't have the "defending doesn't reduce damage clause" so that you don't have uber-tank LoD Meru or whatever, but there are plenty of characters who have a plainly legal Defend-ish command for Firefly anyway (DQ8 Guv w/ Fisticuffs, FF13 Snow, Pokemon with Protect / Detect... actually why has no one used a Pokemon with Protect on Firefly, that'd be total cheese). I also allow the Item command for everyone in games that give the Item command to everyone! ...no legal items to USE with it usually, but comes up for things like item-casting from an equipped weapon in games that do that.
Re power level: Yes, fair comments from Jo'ou and Pyro on the power level of Switch vs. Trans-Turn. I don't usually think the turn-gauge will be THAT crowded (5 on 5 matches tend to have bodies on the floor fast, clearing things up some), but sure, it happens. And yes, if Stocke switches with Raquel, then Stocke gets killed before his switch'd turn, then the team loses a turn, which is another downside of Switch. Anyway, it goes to show that it's not a huge power level thing anyway, so I wouldn't really panic about allowing Switch. It's COOL but not overpowered.
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Now if you want to say Switch shouldn't be legal because you're Elf and think that the entire cast having the command makes it not unique enough, then fine. There's no way to agree on what quite qualifies there, but I don't think the mechanical argument you're using fits.
Uniqueness also entails into why I don't allow Switch -and- defend, but it's a completely convoluted mess that involves a little bit of every column, and also internal kneejerks. Were it simply lack of uniqueness, I'd be doing shit like banning the SH3 cast from using their stock for doubles (and the idea of banning that makes me want to murder puppies just as much as the idea of letting Aht switch her turn into Raquel's). It's not really about the power level of Switch, either - I don't really care about a mechanic's overpoweredness as an argument for and against its functionality. But there's some nagging instinct about letting people who aren't from a cast's particular system-wide mechanic that pretty much dictates their battle flow get the benefits of a universal system that isn't even -theirs- that bothers me a lot. Even because it also interferes into the other casts' own unique mechanical flows. There's no real elegant way to say when the meshing line should be drawn (are we going to disallow people from Suikoden to heal or buff FF PCs? Certainly not), but it starts making me uneasy where you get things like Ricardo comboing into Kongol, EF Suzuka subbing in Yuna to continue an attack string or Stocke switching to Rand, even though these mechanics aren't even particularly abusable either in or out of context. And there it goes. All I can say is that my buttons get pushed differently in regard to those kind of mechanics from yours, and I admit that I'm not sure how I can even reconcile rhetorical inconsistencies. But I dislike giving a free pass of sorts on them a lot more than I dislike being a hardass about it.
On related notes, I generally allow Defend commands myself, with the asterisk that I also try and hew to the "standard" DL interp of characters in the Dungeon, and Defend commands traditionally have been banned by a lot of voters for whatever reason. Regardless Defend commands tend to spoil bosses who have some blatantly telegraphed charge-up attack you're supposed to Defend through in-game, and if that attack sucks in-Dungeon thanks to allowing Defend, I'm cool with that.
I'm more or less with you with the whole "spoiling huge telegraphed charging thing", and my kneejerk is to allow defending to spoil that kind of thing. I'm not so cool with it making strategies like Silent Lake fail or turning Kain into a bonafide Puny, though. More of those internal kneejerk things. Re: items, I take the exactly opposite stance: the item command is universal, so it's illegal to me! So, even though I consider storebought consumables legal to use, they can't use them (i.e. also enters into "I allow Mystic" stuff-type clauses)! Funny how two opposite approaches lead to the same practical result.
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Guessing you get teh Ershins as a bonus? Should be fun to see how well the team pans out.
Also broke way over the max point allowance limit even without Ershin.
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Half a point over, if I gather right? I remember Scias getting downgraded to a 2.5.
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Scias is still listed as 3. I'd expect that given that he'll perform better than Ryu here, so it also a 3.
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Would there be any interest in swapping Mew from a gen 3 to a gen 4 pokemon? All the other pokemon are based on their gen 4 forms. I'd be willing to go through and make a new list for which TMs he'd have at each floor.
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Scias is still listed as 3. I'd expect that given that he'll perform better than Ryu here, so it also a 3.
Yeah, I noticed that, actually. Wonder if Neph just forgot to bring him down.
Also, about Scias performance in the context of the team? Yeah, I'd agree with you. Ryu needing a turn to do shit long-term kinda sucks and he's below average speed to boot. Your first two/three floors will be basically Scias/Nina/Ursula trying to blitz off the universe.
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Would there be any interest in swapping Mew from a gen 3 to a gen 4 pokemon? All the other pokemon are based on their gen 4 forms. I'd be willing to go through and make a new list for which TMs he'd have at each floor.
I say go for it. If you want to do it based on B/W that's fine too.
EDIT: Scias is 2.5 now.
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Alright, I think it'd be best to hold off on B/W since there's no stat topic for it.
Mew
Floor 1: Pound, Transform, Mega Punch, Rock Tomb, Flash, Stealth Rock, Pluck, Rock Smash, Bullet Seed, Hidden Power
Floor 2: Metronome, Cut, Taunt, Earthquake, Brick Break, Double Team, Thief, Recycle, Captivate, Sleep Talk, Grass Knot, Substitute
Floor 3: Secret Power, Attract, Steel Wing, Roost, Shadow Claw, Return, Dig, Shock Wave, Payback, Strength
*False Swipe, Fly, Natural Gift, Drain Punch, Reflect, Explosion, Embargo, Giga Impact, Blizzard, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Thunder, Hyper Beam, Light Screen, Protect, Safe Guard, Solar Beam
(Gyro Ball, Ice Beam, Flame Thrower, Thunderbolt, Swords Dance, Rest, U-Turn, Endure)*
Floor 4: Psychic, Toxic, Sunny Day, Shadow Ball, Aerial Ace, Brine, Silver Wind, Psych Up, Swagger, Dream Eater, Trick Room, Poison Jab, Surf, Defog, Focus Punch, Water Pulse
Floor 5: Barrier, Giga Drain, Iron Tail, Skill Swap, Snatch, Sludge Bomb, Avalanche, X-Scissor, Rock Climb, Frustration, Hail, Rock Polish
Floor 6: Dragon Claw, Roar, Fling, Rain Dance, Charge Beam, Rock Slide, Waterfall
Floor 7: Ancient Power, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Stone Edge, Torment
After game: Amnesia, Me First, Baton Pass, Nasty Plot, Aura Sphere, Calm Mind, Bulk Up, Sandstorm, Facade, Overheat, Energy Ball, Will-o-wisp, Thunderwave
The moves inside asterisks are gotten at Veilstone which is kind of a toss up for whether it's floor 3 or floor 4. I decided to go for Floor 3, but if anyone has any problem we can move it to floor 4. The moves inside parentheses are obtained by trading in coins at the game corner. Technically you can get all of them at once, but this requires an incredible amount of patience. Only allowing one to be added per floor would probably be the best way to match the rate that you'll acquire them in game.
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Also now my second team for after that
BC Terra (3.5), Scias (2.5), Scarecrow 2.5, Ghastly (1.5), Ronfar (1)
Aiming for low usage (Terra is often crowded out by Celes, Scias...think just my current team, no real Scarecrows run, Ghastly has a few neat tricks, Ronfar is back 2nd reviver). Struggle not to go for Eiko.
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I keep trying to find a good way to use Strawman, but I have problems with his durability+offense. His status whoring game takes a while to come into his own (and shapes up -just- as status loses usefulness) too. First Wind would be amazingly cool if it applied immediately instead of the next round, and Plunder is pretty much useless in spite of its in-game godliness. Gnaw would be cooler if it raised physical damage by more than 20% too. I often wonder if a pure status whore is worth more than 2.0 in the boiling of eggs (I certainly don't think Edgar is worth 3.0 in spite of how much he mangles the early game, for instance, since he's so USELESS from floor 5 onwards).
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I know that Saner doesn't effect turn order on the turn that it's cast, but does the evasion boost go into effect immediately upon casting?
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Submitting a team here, without too much thinking about it.
Tir McDohl(3.5), Lenneth2(3), Lucian/Shiho(3), Strago(1.5). NeoSpeed sealstone on Strago.
Should add up to 11.
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per Snow it does indeed grant the evade immediately.
The only tbspeed buff that takes effect the same turn is Lilkas. Maybe Virginia's?
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per Snow it does indeed grant the evade immediately.
The only tbspeed buff that takes effect the same turn is Lilkas. Maybe Virginia's?
Cool stuff. With that in mind I'm gonna put team tank on hold for the following.
Rika (4.0)
Mew (2.5)
Elincia(2.5)
Yukiko (1.5)
Nall (.5)
Elemental Advance.
See if you can spot the strategy! If this team can make it far enough, it will be glorious.
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So, my renewed interest in the dungeon has made me fiddle around with a new team. Let me know what you guys think!
Aika (2.5)
Shadow (2.5) w/ Multitarget
Sharanda (2.0)
Amarant (1.5)
FF5 Red Mage (1.5)
Nall (1.0)
Basic idea is MT Inviz Edge + Delta Shield = invincibility. Inviz Edges start showing up pretty darn early, and Delta Shield is Floor 2, so it won't take long to set it up either. Sharanda and Amarant offer non-magic revival/healing and actual damage. Red Mage brings a variety of powerful status (Frog, Sleep, Mini, Confuse) which will help with cleaning up. Can revive and heal in a pinch, too, I suppose. Was also thinking of replacing Red Mage w/ Gilder. That way, Gilder + Aika pooling SP means that I'll actually be able to use Aura of Denial on Floor 3. Decided that Red Mage's status was more valuable, though.
The damage isn't that great, really, and the lasting power on this team is flat out bad, but it's pretty much a gimmick team. Who knows; maybe the gimmick might work. ^_^;
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I'm not sure. The healing is so damn bad and I generally consider Nall to be a bonafide trap: reviving on the next fight with 1 HP for either a slot or one point is just not very useful unless you have ultrafast ultrapowered healers with no revival (hi Rika!) and absolutely -need- a second source of revival - or if your team is so bad it needs that revival to get past floor 1. Also, Inviz Edge would suffer -some- sort of nerf (turning it into 66% evade? Having it work 66% of the time?), leading to a very imperfect gimmick. Maybe it'd be more interesting to slap someone like Elincia to play into the evade game with Authority stars in the case of the former, and in the latter's case... yeah. I have no idea what purpose Amarant serves there in practice either, since his healing is egregiously bad. The gimmick itself is pretty neat (Shadow and Aika are brutally underused and that kind of synergy could work oddly well), but the non-Shadow/Aika PCs make a really sketchy backup.
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EDIT: Ignore this plz
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I'm not sure. The healing is so damn bad and I generally consider Nall to be a bonafide trap: reviving on the next fight with 1 HP for either a slot or one point is just not very useful unless you have ultrafast ultrapowered healers with no revival (hi Rika!) and absolutely -need- a second source of revival - or if your team is so bad it needs that revival to get past floor 1. Also, Inviz Edge would suffer -some- sort of nerf (turning it into 66% evade? Having it work 66% of the time?), leading to a very imperfect gimmick. Maybe it'd be more interesting to slap someone like Elincia to play into the evade game with Authority stars in the case of the former, and in the latter's case... yeah. I have no idea what purpose Amarant serves there in practice either, since his healing is egregiously bad. The gimmick itself is pretty neat (Shadow and Aika are brutally underused and that kind of synergy could work oddly well), but the non-Shadow/Aika PCs make a really sketchy backup.
Yeah, the best healing I've got is coming from Sharanda. I initially took Amarant because he had non-magic revival, so that I could revive someone while keeping Delta Shield up, since there will inevitably come an enemy in the dungeon that is faster than Shadow and can kill someone. However, I'm a little worried now that Amarant's Revive might not actually show up for awhile. Earliest I can see it happening is the Rebirth Ring that you win from the card tournament in Treno, and that's probably not until Floor 4; maybe even Floor 5? I'll probably throw out Amarant.
As for the Inviz Edge nerf, I think the 66% chance of working makes more sense, since Inviz Edges don't actually raise evasion per se, they just inflict Clear status, which makes all physicals, evadable or not, miss. However, that's just what I think, and if I could get confirmation on what it should be, then that would be very helpful.
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I think that's a total interp call and feel both interps (of course, not TOGETHER) are valid, but I'm not sure how I'd view it yet. An alternative for non-magical healing (which would be more potent and inarguable, since one could try to argue Amarant's healing as magical and I'd be inclined to at least not disagree) would be FFT Chemist, who could also benefit from Multitarget if you're not pimping out the MT Inviz/Shadow Edges. Sharanda I'd initially flat out replace, but I realized her healing... also comes from items in the dungeon. Yeah, that makes her a lot more worthwhile in this position. IF YOU WANT, you can also slap Rikku in that team for another chemist-based skillset and replace someone else. And Rikku's utility and status whoring stuff is so good too. But four points is quite a lot to spare, and if you put her in the setup, you're pretty much stuck with synergy suck for your remaining PCs.
EDIT: Also, the first DQ8 boss that crosses your way will have a FIELD DAY, especially if he comes with support. That gimmick fears dispel whoring like nothing else, so you probably want more potent healing than what originally intended at the very least.
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Alright, scratch my last gimmick. Cute but ineffective isn't as fun as hilarious potential.
By which I mean, I'm stealing the idea that Piggy had after his Vantage team was already in: Vantage + Shadow.
Vantage Sealstone:
Shadow (2.5)
Ramza (3.0)
Tidus (2.5)
Elincia (2.5)
Moulder (0.5)
General idea is that Shadow can smash things about with Interceptor if they're, y'know, any kind of physical. (As far as I know, at least. Might be wrong about that, but it's still hilariously awesome.) Elincia and Moulder are both capable healers and.. Elincia's a capable damage dealer too! Plus, evasion hype to go with counter hype! Ramza acts as yet another healer, while also getting reaction commands for more Vantage abuse. Tidus throws around some ridiculous speed shenanigans as well as eventually getting Caladbolg for absolutely ridiculous Vantage abuse.
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Alright, scratch my last gimmick. Cute but ineffective isn't as fun as hilarious potential.
By which I mean, I'm stealing the idea that Piggy had after his Vantage team was already in: Vantage + Shadow.
Vantage Sealstone:
Shadow (2.5)
Ramza (3.0)
Tidus (2.5)
Elincia (2.5)
Moulder (0.5)
General idea is that Shadow can smash things about with Interceptor if they're, y'know, any kind of physical. (As far as I know, at least. Might be wrong about that, but it's still hilariously awesome.) Elincia and Moulder are both capable healers and.. Elincia's a capable damage dealer too! Plus, evasion hype to go with counter hype! Ramza acts as yet another healer, while also getting reaction commands for more Vantage abuse. Tidus throws around some ridiculous speed shenanigans as well as eventually getting Caladbolg for absolutely ridiculous Vantage abuse.
Man, this team could be a total barrel of monkeys, though I'm not so sure what purpose Tidus serves there (E&C is floor 6 and while Haste/Hastega are really cool, not sure it serves the team especially well. I wouldn't allow Tidus to counter without the skills he needs to do it, and I doubt any other person would). I think, since you're in want of a MT healer and a second reviver, you could try to fit in a healer with some sort of counter skill (is there one?) to tighten up the design a bit further. Also, Interceptor is going to be -utterly hilarious- on early floors, that's four-digit damage off the bat.
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Yeah, Interceptor early is hilariously colossal overkill. As for Tidus, well, it was mostly a choice between healers without counters or support that eventually gets counters. I felt like more gimmicky was more fun, although another healer with counters would be ideal. :P
Edit: Also, Slowga completely shreds some fights and is relatively early, IIRC? ;o
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Slowga is somewhere between Floor 4 and 5? Not too early, but solid enough. Also, Slowga depends on the speed spread in the enemy field in general.
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I didn't think Interceptor worked on everyone, just Shadow.
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It works just on Shadow, but Interceptor -counters- and they -hurt-. It's one hell of a "you really wanna try your luck?" button for the early game and fairly potent even late, and Vantage makes that quite abusable.
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And you can always put Strago on your team to move Interceptor around with Rippler!
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Ooooh that's pretty hilarious.
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..Haha. Would people even see that working? I seem to remember someone (SnowFire, I think?) saying a while back that they assumed moves worked as intended in some cases, such as FF6 Blind.
And Neph, it only counters moves aimed at Shadow, although I'm not entirely certain if it works on MT attacks. But otherwise, yeah, for F2, at least, Shadow can solo the entire floor if I take the physical one, haha.
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Rippler does work in that way. However, doing so removes it from the previous user. So, you don't get to have a full Interceptor party, just to pass him around. May be relevant against physicals that OHKO Shadow (fairly typical, Shadow pdur is trash).
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Under most circumstances I see bugs being fixed in the DL but the Rippler one is funny enough that I might let it slide.
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Good luck pulling that off. Rippler targets one enemy. The way you can trade Interceptor around is either:
* Fight an enemy who itself has Rippler, hope they Ripple Shadow, then Strago Ripples it back.
* Queue up a Rippler on Strago, then immediately cast "Confuse" on him to get some FF6 auto-retargeting action going. Which might well target not Shadow. And people generally ignore the short charge times in the Dungeon (if you don't, then you should hold FF6 chars to having to decide their action a bit in advance of it actually occurring). I personally would be inclined to force it to be FF6-like Confuse to have this work (and no Celes on the team to learn it) - most games, if you have a queued action and you become Confused, will either have that last action complete as expected or will pick a new action at random.
What I mentioned, when it came up in testing, was that Rippler can't be used to rip off equipment-granted statuses I believe. Surprising, but. I fought the enemy who has Rippler a long time with Marvel Shoes on, and while I believe the enemy got the benefit of the Safe/Shell/Haste IIRC, it didn't remove the good statuses from the user. (Matters vs. FFX-2 Yuna on Floor 8 and her auto-Safe/Shell.)
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Oh -right-, some of Strago's spells -do- have hard-targetting shenanigans going!
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Now is probably a good time to announce this particularly relevant change:
Any character that joins later that the start of the game should be considered to join with the skillset and equipment from that point and scaled against other characters from that time period. In addition, their stats are locked to the earliest they join until they naturally would join, after which they will continue to gain strength as they would in-game. The exceptions to this rule are in cases such as Pokemon or Athos.
Notably, this means that Orlandu would have the Excalibur on Floor 1 and have his other equipment and scaled against the same equipment others would have at the time of his joining. He would gain nothing until Floor 6, the natural point in the game where he would join.
This also affects the other Suikoden mages, but to a lesser extent. Don't worry about downscaling anymore.
If there are any questions or if I made this unclear, please let me know.
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Yay!
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In addition, I am going to bring the subject of removing Radiant Historia, both in terms of bosses and PCs from the Dungeon.
I personally feel like they do bring interesting things to the table, but opposition has been expressed in regards to their skillsets and what they actually can do vs. them being interesting.
I'd like to open the discussion on not just them, but anyone else in the Dungeon currently who may simply need either a removal or a rethinking.
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I don't mind removing Radiant Historia except for Marco. The primary reason to remove it is that it has a very powerful mechanic that is useful on dungeon teams. Switch allows for turn-swapping, which is amazing in a team setting. The problem is that the PCs were not priced at the level of having this, and the interp split creates vastly diverging views that are hard to reconcile in a price.
Why keep Marco? Because turn-swapping/granting is his entire point for being in the dungeon. Besides having a nice support skillset in and of himself (rather important), he can grant turns. This was always his niche and was noted as such in his writeup. He was *underpriced*, this is true. 1.5 was way too low for that skillset. But he has been bumped up in price already (to 2.5) and is not interp-split ladden like Stocke and Raynie are. People have taken to calling turn-granting broken/cheating. It is indeed very powerful, but bear in mind that it is *NOT* like having a carbon copy of your best PC. The target of turn-swapping must a) be alive and not statused, b) Have resources to do what you want them to do despite having to double-use their skillset and c) receive that second turn at Marco's speed, not their own.
Honestly this is not more powerful than granting your entire team initiative, which a certain 2.0 can do...
So keep Marco and boot the rest. If people feel Marco is too powerful then he should be priced even higher, but honestly 2.5 should be about right.
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Jane is also being heavily considered for removal.
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There are plenty of set decisions that are just made. Rather than remove RH, I would just say that they can't use Switch (unless you want to say they
The only reason I would say this is that Stocke fills a pretty useful niche in dungeon (Decently tanky person with early revival). When I saw him popping up on teams, I assumed that was the reason. Bosses don't innately have a problem (beyond the fact that they've been mostly curbstopped).
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Unless you want to say...?
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Oh, I meant to say that RH (or Stocke at least. Raynie is whatever) should be kept was that there was at least some niche it was filling. Just outlaw Switch.
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Personally I feel the interp-split was never that heavy - as noted before, at least in CK's tourney voting, switch hype came up a fair amount - but sure, definitely just issue a ruling, one way or the other, since it's best to avoid such interp-splits. I do think the cast is underpriced for Switch hype but such divergences in price aren't uncommon. More to the point, I think Switch is cool and interesting, and letting it come play in the Dungeon is where you get to show it off far more than in a duel. Slugfests might be easier to interpret but they're not as fun; weird swingy matches are neat as long as the interp is clear, and if Switch is allowed it's usually very clean to interpret. (For example, my proposed team didn't have a single broken thing it could use Stocke's switch for, and could fall back on Stocke's own skillset quite a bit; sometimes it could get double-MT heals, sometimes it could get double-status healing, sometimes double-Elincia beats, sometimes Stocke can plain hit something or revive.) Additionally, the most powerful use of Switch / Trans-Turn is to artificially speed someone slow-but-broken up, and since Aht wasn't in, that wasn't a problem. Well. Except for Speed?, Body Charge, or Jane. As has come up with Pyro / Djinn.
I think this is just an overreaction to Djinn's team. Yes, Djinn's team is "broken," but that's kind of half the point of the Dungeon - either come up with a cool theme team, or figure out some haxy combination of characters, or both. Jane is far more the "problem" in Djinn's team, but there's so many horrible things that can be done with mass team initiative, I consider 3x VP2 Lenneth turns far from the worst potential. (As for why Jane teams crashed and burned before, I think that was due to thinking of her as a one-trick pony who just did Follow Me + some plain bad luck.)
As for claims that a specific ruling on a per-character basis is unclean or inelegant or whatever, that happens all the time. Look at FFX Rikku or FFX Yuna or whatever; these characters are insanely swingy if they don't have clarification on which "form" they're allowed, and it's not a big deal. In fact there's the entire "Dungeon Stuff" wiki page with the rough guidelines for characters, many of which are set-in-stone for sanity's sake. Explicitly setting rulings is a good thing, not a bad thing. So yeah. I personally would prefer to keep all the RH characters and cheerfully use them as enemies as well - just, well, don't use them on the MT floor of course. (I also would prefer that the RH characters prices be hiked and Switch kept, or even for characters to be split a la Nall, but keeping Stocke & Raynie with a no-Switch clause would be fine as well.)
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For the record, I don't feel strongly on any issue except that I don't really like the idea of Switching/Turn Shifting/Trans-Turning. If anything, I would like to keep Stocke (and maybe Raynie) but probably not allow RH Switching and have them be priced accordingly.
I don't feel like this is a reaction to Djinn's team, but his was the first to really highlight my problems with the idea. I think any team with Jane, Sacred Slayer and Marco could get really far depending on who the other two people you brought were. The issue, really, isn't that those three are good, it's that they're incredibly boring and all do virtually the same thing.
I agree with you that Jane is much more of the problem than anything, which is why I am highly considering just removing her.
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Unrelated, but a few changes:
Orlandu to 4.0
Lenneth to 3.5
Emily to 2.5
Eiko to 2.0
Strawman to 2.0
Lyn to 1.5
Gilder to 1.0
Marisa to 1.0
Removed Rufus
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Eiko to 2.5?! She'll never be picked ever since she competes with Garnet at that level... any particular reason why? (Scrolled up IRC chat before it got disconnected, and think you mentioned the scaling ruling - the scaling ruling doesn't affect Eiko at all, she joins on like early Floor 3 anyway so at most it affects her F1 and F2, and if people denied her her starting spells on F1 & F2 then WTF. Also, her odds of Phoenix are not as great as hyped, they're like a 25% chance of triggering if the party wiped I believe.) Don't get me wrong, Eiko is one of the strongest 1.5 picks around and I can certainly see hiking her to 2.0 (where she won't be used much), but 2.5 is way overkill.
If Lyn is 1.5, Marisa should probably go to 1.0. (Which is safe, I think.)
As noted, keeping Stocke & Raynie with a no-switch clause is fine by me, much as I like thinking about Switch. (As is keeping Marco without one since as pointed out it's the whole point of the character, Sacred Slayer has been around forever without incident, etc.) I personally think turn-shifting is fine though; it definitely is swingy and causes degenerate things, but Sealstones are even swingier and cause degenerate things, as are aftergame bonuses, so the Dungeon has swingy and degenerate things. Best they be interesting swingy & degenerate things, not boring "and everyone dies."
I think Jane is interesting enough to keep, but just keep hiking that price. Assuming Sucker is as good as MF hyped (see other thread, but I have a lot of respect when someone says "Yes I tested this in-game") I think Jane is entirely a fair pick at 3.5 points. That should cut into her abusability a good deal.
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I'd be fine with a No Switch clause for the RH-ers. Even Marco can be stuck with only Trans-Turn. I honestly had assumed this was the case when I first picked him.
I like Raynie because MP Charge is rare enough and she's a solid mage/status-slinger. The RHers having the moving commands to increase/decrease damage is also a neat trick that could be interesting and swingy in some battles, so they've got potential outside Turn Switching shenanigans. Not to mention that their Limit Breaks are "Enemy loses a turn!" without actually using up their own turns, which is pretty sweet for anyone using the VBL sealstone.
Sorry that my team is 'boring'... I would have picked Nils instead of Jane if you'd have put him in. I was just amused by the idea. Hell, I might have forgone Ivan and just literally had 4 Turn-granters and Lenneth for ultimate amusement. It would have probably crashed and burned faster, but I would have been amused.
On Jane: Yes, I'd support a price hike, but if she's going up to something ridiculous like 3.5, I'd at least like to see her get Finest Arts as a default equip, considering her unique mults as a claim on it.
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Eiko is now 2.0 and Marisa is 1.0.
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I think Jane is interesting enough to keep, but just keep hiking that price. Assuming Sucker is as good as MF hyped (see other thread, but I have a lot of respect when someone says "Yes I tested this in-game") I think Jane is entirely a fair pick at 3.5 points. That should cut into her abusability a good deal.
It should be noted that Sucker is as good as it is due to the following formula:
NOTE 0027: Successful provoke chances are:
chance = [<Jane LVL> X <LCK mod> / <enemy LVL>]
- <LCK modifier>
If Jane's LCK is A, then multiply by B points...
A | B
---------------
S-BEST | 2.0
BEST | 1.2
GOOD | 1.1
NORMAL | 1.0
BAD | 0.9
WORST | 0.7
That means, AT EQUAL LEVEL, Jane has a 100% hit rate with Sucker at Normal Luck. However, ACF is a bit cruel to the player, changing up the Luck of all the characters at quite a variable rate. However, if you consider Jane at Best Luck, she can be at ~84% the enemy's level for Sucker to hit 100% of the time. Worst Luck similarly recalculates into needing Jane to be ~143% the enemy's level to hit 100% of the time.
S-Best Luck is only possible to achieve by having Cecilia cast Hocus Pocus on a character while they're already at Best Luck.
Anyway, example. Zeikfried in Malduke is L51. Assuming that endgame levels are 55 (Sei noted Mariel at that level and no other level is listed in the stat topic) and Jane is at Normal Luck, Sucker has about a 108% chance to hit him.
CHANGE CHANCE | Occurs when?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Small | - your party enters "Surprise Attack!" type of battle | - your party enters "Back Attack!" type of battle | - one of your chrs enters "Danger!" type of battle | - you load a saved game
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Medium | - chr levels up | - 30 minutes of playtime have passed
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Large | - after major storyline events
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Minus | - chr becomes fallen in battle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Below are four tables outlining the probabilities for LCK stat to change. I'll now list an example of how to read first line in the first table. Apply the example to other three tables, and you're good to go.
If LCK is "Best" and small change chance event occurs, chr has:
- 9/16 chance of having LCK remain at "Best"
- 4/16 chance of having LCK change from "Best" to "Good"
- 3/16 chance of having LCK change from "Best" to "Normal"
- zero chance of having LCK change from "Best" to "Bad", ie it can't happen
- zero chance of having LCK change from "Best" to "Worst", ie it can't happen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
SMALL CHANGE CHANCE PROBABILITY TABLE
From \ To | Best | Good | Normal | Bad | Worst
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best | 9/16 | 4/16 | 3/16 | 0 | 0
Good | 1/16 | 10/16 | 3/16 | 2/16 | 0
Normal | 1/16 | 2/16 | 10/16 | 2/16 | 1/16
Bad | 0 | 2/16 | 3/16 | 10/16 | 1/16
Worst | 0 | 0 | 3/16 | 4/16 | 9/16
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MEDIUM CHANGE CHANCE PROBABILITY TABLE
From \ To | Best | Good | Normal | Bad | Worst
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best | 6/16 | 6/16 | 4/16 | 0 | 0
Good | 3/16 | 5/16 | 5/16 | 3/16 | 0
Normal | 2/16 | 4/16 | 4/16 | 4/16 | 2/16
Bad | 0 | 3/16 | 5/16 | 5/16 | 3/16
Worst | 0 | 0 | 4/16 | 6/16 | 6/16
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LARGE CHANGE CHANCE PROBABILITY TABLE
From \ To | Best | Good | Normal | Bad | Worst
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best | 0 | 8/16 | 5/16 | 3/16 | 0
Good | 4/16 | 0 | 6/16 | 4/16 | 2/16
Normal | 2/16 | 6/16 | 0 | 6/16 | 2/16
Bad | 2/16 | 4/16 | 6/16 | 0 | 4/16
Worst | 0 | 3/16 | 5/16 | 8/16 | 0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MINUS CHANGE CHANCE PROBABILITY TABLE
From \ To | Best | Good | Normal | Bad | Worst
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best | 4/16 | 4/16 | 4/16 | 4/16 | 0
Good | 0 | 4/16 | 4/16 | 4/16 | 4/16
Normal | 0 | 0 | 6/16 | 6/16 | 4/16
Bad | 0 | 0 | 0 | 8/16 | 8/16
Worst | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 16/16
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While hard numbers are good, the summary is this: if at any point during a floor before a reset Jane dies, the hit rate of Sucker has a high chance of going down. Nevermind that character Luck influences a LOT of other things in-game, as well.
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I'm a bit confused by this new ruling. For temps who join at L1 and then leave like Peppita does it mean that instead of staying and levelling up normally/ linearly they stay at L1 and don't level up/learn their skills/etc or does it mean they are taken at the average levels when they join with the best gear from that point (i.e L32~ Peppita w/th Spike Shoes)? Or does it mean they do level up and gain HP/skills as usual but not stats/equips? :???: If it's the former what about the FFXIII characters do they have to rely on their base physicals for a while?
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In a case like Peppita, it's probably easiest to just let her level from the start.
For FF13 characters, just imagine that Fang has all her skills when she joins in Chapter...9? or whatever, but her stats are scaled against Chapter 9 PCs.
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(As for why Jane teams crashed and burned before, I think that was due to thinking of her as a one-trick pony who just did Follow Me + some plain bad luck.)
Most of the Jane teams that were designed just plain sucked ass. The only team that got into F4 with her before Djinn's was Glen's, and -that- one I'm not sure how it got -there- in the first place. <_<
EDIT: Also, Jane at 3.5 is honestly as ridiculous as Jane at 2.0 assuming Sucker is good.
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If that's the same Glen team we're thinking of, the real question is why it didn't insta-win the Dungeon. (Well. I know. Glen just randomly picked floors and intentionally was nice and moved Firefly off Jane or something, since Firefly-at-the-time was an absurd combo with Jane - Firefly didn't last a single turn, so sticking Firefly on Jane -> What Can You Do? spam -> all enemy offensive turns are canceled forever and Jane shoots them in response. And EVEN IGNORING that particular interaction for sanity's sake so it was possible for Glen to lose, Glen had to random into a particularly haxy floor that was probably too tough AND spoiled his team.)
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What was Glen's team again? I though that "What can you do" had pretty severe limitations attached to it that prevented it from being gamebreaking with Firefly.
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Cecilia, Raquel, Lilka, Jane (Firefly)
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Jane didn't actually get banned from using Old Firefly until I was dubious enough to pick her on the team and then pointed out "oh hey Jane can do this with firefly!"
Other then that the team was pretty bad without the hax of old op firefly/me picking some floors that benefited my team. (Crit floor + Jane = Hilarity)
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Actually, some of those old floor ideas could make for a few neat Sealstones...
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REPOSTITTY REPOST POST
Scrapping that Jane team, trying something else given current context.
The Emeritous Honey Badger Brigade
Mei-ling (2.5), Hilda (2.5, Speed? Sealstone), Yuri1 (3.5), Raja (1.0), Ricardo (1.5)
Eh, shuffling things around because my last team suddenly turned illegal with Hilda going up to 2.5. Probably too much SH3, but better to have combo shenanigans than not.
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New team since why not?
Tir, Orlandu, Maxim, BoF3 Nina and FFT Priest. Status Symbol Law sealstone.
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I'm kinda questioning Status Symbol Law on a team that eventually gets such a vast swath of statusblocking measures. I'm not sure it's worth giving up damage and durability on your entourage for a level of status defense they will come close to eventually. It could be worth it for the sake of spoiling the hell out of Different Strokes, which you'd risk struggling with otherwise.
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Eh, I'm willing to experiment with it.
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Well, as I said, it's not a move without its worth. It also has the perk of immuning things that they otherwise can't cover in anyway (stat busts, for instance, can only be immuned naturally by NINA FUCKING THREE). You borderline free pass on one of the floor 4s with it to boot and the team has some strong bases (Tir ID is amazing for the early floors and he eventually gets it MT -and- even gets astounding cannoning eventually, Orlandu damage+speed is amazing, Maxim's spellset is quite potent for support and bonafide healer with status immunity+solid durability even with SSL are neat enough).
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I am assuming that Reset for Time Mage Bartz is a legal move in the DL and dungeon.
It is a pretty sweet move in a team setting although enemy perfect AI removes one of its more abusive applications.
works pretty well cause I have a hyperfast mt status slinger but her rates are 50% instead of 100%
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I though Neph said in IRC chat that Reset was banned?
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He mentioned it was banned on Emma for some reason or another but nothing else. (maybe because Emma is a ~1.5?). Bartz is a 4.0, and that restriction was never mentioned for him. Also I didn't see any mention of it in any of the dungeon topics.
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He mentioned it was banned on Emma for some reason or another but nothing else. (maybe because Emma is a ~1.5?). Bartz is a 4.0, and that restriction was never mentioned for him. Also I didn't see any mention of it in any of the dungeon topics.
I remember a discussion about it, about how exactly Reset would work in the Dungeon. Like, for example, if you had a status with a 40% hit rate, and you used Reset, would that 40% chance accumulate over the Resets, or would the Reset erase the "accumulation", and cause the hit rate to remain at 40% regardless how many times you Reset.
I'm not sure what I think of it myself. If you let the chances of the status hitting accumulate, then you can probably break the dungeon in some pretty silly ways. It works the other way around, too; you can spam Reset so that the enemy's status misses. The fact that Reset only costs 1 MP means you can literally spam it with very little drawback, too. That might be -too- good.
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It is a very neat game to be played.
Take the first fight of 4b. Alakazam goes first and attacks Bartz. Then Jean goes and attempts status. If she doesn't get it then Bartz will reset, right? Well, if he keeps doing that, ZAM will crit. The enemy can try to take advantage of your Reset loop by inserting their own "Chance of screwing you over" somewhere, which can in theory render the entire attempt at Resetting pointless because you'll eventually give the enemy a win (my team doesn't have that problem in this particular fight as even if it happens they have a 100% surefire way to revive Bartz and Reset anyway), but it's definitely a fine line to walk. As for Resetting if the enemy status hits... well that assumes you are in a position to cast it again!
The 40% status odd thing doesn't 'reset' itself... RNG is re-randomized by Reset so it is indeed re-rolling until it hits (assuming that is feasible, see above). It also restores all resources and timers and so on to the condition at the start of the fight (why people use it to steal from Odin, for example).
Reset has always been integral to Time Mage's game (it's why she is a Godlike instead of a Heavy in a duel format). I assumed it was available in the dungeon as it was never mentioned to be outlawed. It is powerful but then this is to be expected. Bartz is one of the 4.0s for a reason after all.
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Definitely in favour of allowing Reset, as Pyro describes. It's a legit skill and I don't think it's overpowered precisely because the enemies can often exploit it too. It's actually less powerful in the dungeon than in-game because you can't reset until the enemy does something stupid, and there are no ambushes in the dungeon for it to erase.
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If it becomes a problem we can address it then.
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Time Mage is Godlike even without Reset hype - still has overkill damage off 2x Meteor, just not quite as overkilly.
Mechanicswise, I lean toward allowing Reset, albeit with a "player frustration" limit that nixes using Reset more than 4-5 times to get perfect results. That said I'd have little objection to disallowing it in the Dungeon for power/flavor reasons. The situations where Reset can backfire are very specific and not all that common. It's quite a huge power boost. As noted Bartz is a 4.0 so maybe that kind of power is okay, but FWIW, when I was thinking of making a Time-travel themed Stocke / Crono team for awhile, I would have requested a custom synergy Sealstone which was basically a one-shot of this ability, albeit not tied to the survival of any particular character (you lose? Okay try the fight again from the top.) It's quite solid if you have any unreliable statusers on your team (Jean as noted), and it's good even against opposing hax. For example, it means that enemies who want to turn off the Reset spigot are 100% required to go kill / Silence Bartz before anyone else, which may not always be possible (some enemies don't have critical rates, or must do something really suboptimal to threaten a Bartz kill), and even when it is possible that makes Bartz basically a pseudo-Firefly holder, which as we know is always good.
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It is a very neat game to be played.
Take the first fight of 4b. Alakazam goes first and attacks Bartz. Then Jean goes and attempts status. If she doesn't get it then Bartz will reset, right? Well, if he keeps doing that, ZAM will crit. The enemy can try to take advantage of your Reset loop by inserting their own "Chance of screwing you over" somewhere, which can in theory render the entire attempt at Resetting pointless because you'll eventually give the enemy a win (my team doesn't have that problem in this particular fight as even if it happens they have a 100% surefire way to revive Bartz and Reset anyway), but it's definitely a fine line to walk. As for Resetting if the enemy status hits... well that assumes you are in a position to cast it again!
The big difference there is that Alakazam's chance at a crit is much lower than Jean's chance at status. On average, it will take less Resets for Jean to land her status than it would for Alakazam to get a crit, so based on that, Jean's status should go off first. I can't think of very many situations where -intentionally- Resetting would benefit the enemy team more than your team. Quite simply, if it somehow benefited the enemy team more, you just wouldn't use Reset.
The 40% status odd thing doesn't 'reset' itself... RNG is re-randomized by Reset so it is indeed re-rolling until it hits (assuming that is feasible, see above). It also restores all resources and timers and so on to the condition at the start of the fight (why people use it to steal from Odin, for example).
What I meant was, some people brought up the idea that using Reset would also Reset the RNG, bringing it back to its original value. So, in that sense, if you consider a status missing on turn 1 (e.g. 40% hit rate), and you Reset, it will still miss on turn 1, because the RNG has been returned to its original value. Of course, a 40% hit rate COULD hit on turn 1, but no one works off that assumption, because it's more likely that it doesn't hit. Most people consider turn 1 status as being either 50%+, or 66%+, so using Reset would continually bring it back to turn 1, where a 40% hit rate would continually miss until it was used a second time. I'm not saying this is what I consider should happen, but it was brought up, and I wouldn't be surprised if some people did see it this way.
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The RNG being reset is largely a question of the move itself. FF5's RNG does not get 'reset' along with everything else. So you can totally miss a status, Reset, and keep right on trying till it hits.
On an unrelated note: I was thinking and maybe a team with Songstress and (FFMQ) Benjamin could work well. He has an Initiative Cover that gets status/MT/magic stuff to protect her. Maybe I'm thinking up a trick that just wouldn't work in practice, though.
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I'll go ahead and throw out that I'm not opposed to Reset being allowed in the dungeon. It could be a lot of fun to see the quirky things that come out of it, and like Neph said, if it does turn out to be too powerful, it'll be addressed then. =)
Also on an unrelated note, with Gilder being lowered in cost to 1.0, I'm thinking that using Aika and Gilder together, so they can pool their SP, could be pretty cool. Being able to use Aura of Denial right when you get it makes Gilder a lot more valuable, and it makes things like Gunsligner, Quika and Increm a lot more likely to occur. Although, admittedly, if you're doing any of that, it means you aren't using Delta Shield, so that might not end up being THAT useful. At worst, it'll help with the Different Strokes floor!
Also, edited my team a little!
Ramza (3.0)
Aika (2.5)
Shadow (2.5) w/ MT sealstone
Sharanda (2.0)
Bowser (1.0)
Quick recap; idea is basically MT Inviz Edge + Delta Shield makes the team incredibly annoying to kill. FFT Chemist was a good idea, but it just had too little damage for my liking. Opted instead for Ramza, who can heal w/ items, and he can still dish out some decent damage. Sharanda perfectly fits the idea of the team; solid damage, decent healing and revival, all with items. Only thing I'm not sure about is my 1.0. I went for Bowser, because I figured someone who can inflict status might be a good idea, and Terrorize will definitely help my team with its damage problems. But I'm not 100% convinced he's the best pick. Thoughts?
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Terrorize is decent status and not often immuned. It's just *slow* off of Bowser which can be a problem. Your team is more about setting up followed by beatdowns though.
Does anyone know how good Sharanda's damage really IS with items?
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Terrorize is decent status and not often immuned. It's just *slow* off of Bowser which can be a problem. Your team is more about setting up followed by beatdowns though.
Does anyone know how good Sharanda's damage really IS with items?
Early on, Shana using items is the most damaging thing you've got. There's like, three "tiers" of items. Single-target, weak multi-target, and strong multi-target. The ST items are stronger than the weak MT items, and the strong MT items are about on par with the ST items. The ST items and the weak MT items are all store-bought throughout the game, whereas the stronger MT items are never store-bought.
On the earlier floors (Floor 1-3), I'd peg ST items as doing as much as 0.6 PCHP, with the weak MT items probably closer to 0.45~ or so. As you progress, and you start leveling up your additions, items start to give way to additions in terms of damage. Later on, when Albert, Rose and Haschel start really dishing out big damage with their additions (Floor 4-5), ST items probably drop back down to the 0.4~ damage range, and maybe more like 0.3~ with the weak MT items. By Floor 5, you start having access to the strong MT items, so the MT damage becomes closer to the ST damage.
I don't know if Sharanda still has Psyche Bomb X (if she goes, it would be on Floor 6), but when she gets that, it's probably like, MT 0.7~ PCHP in damage. It's really strong. Actually, if I was to make a list of when items become store-bought, I think it'd look like this.
Floor 1 - Healing Potion (ST, 50% healing), Angel's Prayer (ST, 50% revival), Body Purifier (ST, heals physical status), Mind Purifier (ST, heals mental status), Burnout (ST Fire item), Spark Net (ST Thunder item), Spear Frost (ST Water item), Meteor Fall (MT Earth item), Dancing Ray (MT Light item)
Floor 2 - Sun Rhapsody (ST, full MP healing), Dark Mist (ST Darkness item), Fatal Blizzard (MT Water item), Spinning Gale (ST Wind item), Gushing Magma (MT Fire item), Thunderbolt (MT Thunder item)
Floor 3 - Healing Breeze (MT, 50% healing), Pellet (ST Earth item), Trans Light (ST Light item), Black Rain (MT Darkness item), Rave Twister (MT Wind item)
Floor 4 - Healing Fog (ST, 100% healing), Depetrifier (ST Petrify healing),
Floor 5 - Panic Bell (ST, Confusion), Stunning Hammer (ST, Paralysis), Poison Needle (ST, Poison), Midnight Terror (ST, Fear)
Floor 6 - Psyche Bomb X
Healing Rains (MT, 100% healing) and Spirit Potions (100 SP added) are never store-bought.
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I believe I removed Psyche Bomb X because it was a little too good for what you'd get with her.
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I believe I removed Psyche Bomb X because it was a little too good for what you'd get with her.
Gotcha. So yeah, take away Psyche Bomb X, and that is more or less when Sharanda should gets her items.
There's also two more items I didn't list that are store-bought; Attack Balls and Recovery Balls, which randomly use any attack item and recovery item, respectively. Due to their random nature, I figure it wouldn't be all that important to list them. It's worth nothing that Attack Balls can yield the stronger MT items, and Recovery Balls can yield Healing Rains, the MT 100% healing item. However, I wouldn't count on those, haha.
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IIRC, LoD has a tiny inventory, which made it hard to stockpile lots of items, which was the main reason why Psyche Bomb X was nixed - it's better than everything and is reusable for forever and ever, thus undermining the "drawback" of items. I can't recall how large the inventory actually was or if similar items stacked, but I remember never having enough items when I played the game.
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The inventory had like 16-32 slots if I'm not mistaken. Yes, it was very limiting and yes, it was very cumbersome.
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32 slots (equipment doesn't count towards this). It actually works well in-game since items are strong and inexpensive so inventory is the way the game limits their power. In the dungeon I don't think 32 would be much of a limit, but you might scale it down because dungeon has fewer battles than in-game.
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Made a few more changes:
Jessica to 3.0
Toadstool to 2.5
Momo to 2.5
Chris to 2.0
Edgar to 2.0
Rosa+Rydia to 2.0
Ninja to 1.5
Gastly changed to Gengar
Angela to 1.0
Jude to 1.0
Beecham to .5
Emma to .5
Removed Luneth
Removed Palom & Porom
Removed Rose (I can hear CT crying from here)
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If Jessica's being moved to a 3.0, then Ryu2 should definitely follow her. Ryu2's shot of damage is better, but Jessica's way better at everything else.
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Jess is faster and has a good skillset Has anyone ever used Ryu2 successfully (actually gotten to G Drgn and won a floor?)
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If Jessica's being moved to a 3.0, then Ryu2 should definitely follow her. Ryu2's shot of damage is better, but Jessica's way better at everything else.
Done.
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This is a bit of a selfish request, but would it be possible to cut down on the number of Xenosaga 2 bosses in the dungeon? It feels like they're used disproportionately frequently and I don't think the number of people who can vote on them is that high especially since their mechanics can get somewhat complex.
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That is not a selfish request, but I think Orgulla is the only one that I happen to use. If there are any other ones I'll remove them.
I can change Virgil for something else, although he's XS3.
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How does this team sound?
Orlandu (4.0):[MT Sealstone]
Sharanda (2.0):
Chris Lightfellow (2.0):
FFT Chemist (2.0):
Raja (1.0):
The idea being... I'm not really sure. honestly. Problem is a lack of magic damage, but Sharanda can spam some items/magic with Chemist's MP restoration. Maybe I'll think about it. The real *core* idea is Orlandu with the MT sealstone because holy shit.
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It also looks like a Silent Lake team!
Chris only has one shot of SL on floor one, and she doesn't get multiple castings until like... Floor 4? But MP restoration should fix that, so Raja's not a bad choice at all. Sharanda and Chemist are basically must-haves for any team that intends to use SL, and this one looks viable. Just look out for big powerful physical damage!
Hmm... I wonder, how does the MT sealstone interact with the ST floor?
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The sealstone probably gets overruled, I think this has come up before.
EDIT: Also, as odd as that may sounds, Pokémon are probably a good option for SL teams.
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...I disagree. I think Pokemon would get completely shut down by SL. They'd become forced to use Struggle every turn...
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Are you kidding? SL doesn't even shut down non-rune magical skills (see stuff like the Asozesses' MT magical attacks mocking Silent Lake), let alone physical anything. There's an argument for Pokémon special attacks being silenceable with pure spell silence (although I don't agree with it - Pokémon attacks function in a very specific way, only being shut off on a completely individual basis and having individual resource pools, much like PS4 skills - which aren't affected by silence themselves! You'd need something like Mana Khemia silence, which is complete skillset shutdown, to affect Poké movepools to me. Flipside, I see Grandia moveblock affecting Poké skillsets pretty definitively. I differentiate more by skill type than by physical/magical split. Feels fair, since Grandia skills run a gamut of options that includes all damage types and basically all kinds of support the game can cover), but that shutting off their non-Special skillsets feels pretty much ridiculous.
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^To the above, I'd see SL getting anything that runs off Special Attack or is a Buff in Pokemon. Although Pokemon in the Dungeon is bad enough, it may not need more restrictions.
I'm removing Jane, Sacred Slayer and Marco from the Dungeon for the foreseeable future. Raynie and Stocke will stay, but on the stipulation they can only RH Switch with themselves.
Also, making a small improvement to VBL: Characters with system-specific gauges begin the floor with them filled. These gauges do not charge during the floor by any other means. In the case where gauges grant a turn or some other benefit upon being filled, this benefit will apply once per fight, assuming the bar hasn't been used. In addition, Full Heals will still restore the gauges to full, even if they've been expended.
OMG AERIS GETS INITIATIVE ALL THE TIME TO DO NOTHING
Just kidding, that was dumb.
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I also would not see Pokemon skills getting hit by SL at all.
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Wait what? I thought S3 Silent Lake shut down -all- Runes? I thought someone made a point of that during a few matches in the DL I was actually around for?
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I would probably see SL shutting down special attacks, but all buffs would still work. There doesn't seem anything inherently magical about Defense Curl or Sand Attack for instance.
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Wait what? I thought S3 Silent Lake shut down -all- Runes? I thought someone made a point of that during a few matches in the DL I was actually around for?
Whoever said that was completely wrong. It just shuts down all rune magic and maybe some non-rune pseudomagical things. Many pseudomagical attacks that hit MDef (mind, none of those exist on the player's side) can be used under SL fine, so can physical runes like Shrike and Red Rose.
EDIT: That may be correct in Suikoden Tactics, though?
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Making the following change, relevant to Bartz, Celes and Ramza (technically)
The way they will work now is that they choose 1 Job, Esper or whatever for a floor. They will get an extra bonus to their skillsets after the floor is over at certain times as I will indicate.
So, Bartz no longer has to choose two jobs to get the benefit, he only has to stay in the one job in order to get a new one, and if he chooses, can go back to older ones to pass a floor and will still gain a new job at the end.
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Couple of ideas I've been discussing with Neph that's in the works:
Squall (FF8) /w one GF choice
Comment: Inspiration from the RICHARD challenge. Choose one GF from an available set at the start of every floor. You are stuck with that GF until the end of the floor. When selected, you learn all of that GFs abilities for the floor (so you get access to all their abilities).
Pros: Several GFs are capable of handling themselves pretty well. GF summons are also always good and MT, which along with their support abilities, gives you some major stat benefits in certain areas.
Cons: No one GF is capable of covering all of it's own holes, so you'll always be vulnerable to something. Some GF choices are practically worthless, so actual choice variety may be a bit more limiting.
Estimated Cost: 2.0-2.5?
Rise (P4G)
Comment: Gaining some significant boosts to her supporting role, now you can add Rise to your own party-line up too! The downside? She doesn't actually fight, and giving you knowledge of weaknesses is probably not that useful.
Pros: Gains some pretty powerful supporting abilities late including the ability to stop a fatal attack once, the ability to FULLY revive your team on a wipe and can support the party in other ways (healing, status recovery, buffs, giving charged status to all characters...).
Cons: You're stuck with a PCless body for at least 5 floors or more. Rise's ability to help you (aside from the fatal attack save, and full recovery) is randomized so while it might matter in longer fights, is not likely to make a difference in shorter ones.
Estimated Cost: 1.0
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If Rise really is COMPLETELY worthless for 5 floors, then maybe 0.5 fits her better.
Anyways, I deem the Dungeon to be lacking in Bear-obsessed ghosts:
1.5 Pamela Ibis (Mana Khemia)
Pros: Has some status and parasitic healing (that becomes MT late). Gains physical immunity and has the ability to auto-revive fairly quickly, which is always frustrating for the enemy when combined with her limit-esque skills.
Cons: Her durability is so bad she'll be relying on that auto-revival a lot more than you'd like, and she's not threatening enough to make a "must kill now" target. Until she gains physical immunity she is horribly frail to beat-downs. Doesn't bring much in terms of team skills and is slow.
1.5 seems consistent with others in that range, since she lacks team-useful skills, she's slow, and her status is not very powerful and all ST. Mostly gimmicky for the physical immunity and auto-revival.
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She also has resource issues unless she wants to use SP! I think at some point there was vague toying with some kind of MK switch combo.
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To fix my team after Eiko's price went up, after hemming & hawing a bunch about possibly rearranging both Stocke & Eiko, eh screw it let's go for crazy offense and make the long game more deadly. Don't think anyone's used him but I'll risk SD3 interp hype to use Hawk as something new. The stat topic's "average time" is 2.25 seconds, and Hawk's Jutsus (which go MT in Ninja Master) take 2.00 seconds, so with any luck he can be unstoppably hosing everyone's offense by Floor 6. If I survive that long. (Only SD3 character with any evade worth noting too, not that it's good, but Elincia should help on that.)
Elincia, Yuna (MT), Arnaud, Stocke, Hawk
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Just gonna go ahead and confirm my team. Thanks!
Ramza, Aika, Shadow (MT), Sharanda, Bowser
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Looks like my team hasn't been updated in the first post. I changed it to a Vantage team that.. I'll find sometime soon. I remember having Shadow and that's about all I remember. >.>;;
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Hmm... Pamela's a project character. There's certainly things you could do with her though. Another possible candidate for Firefly, of course. Though not great until she gets Physical Immunity. She -does- at least get auto-life!
Option 1: If you really want Mana Khemia characters to retain some switch flavor, you could try implementing a universal Switch-in command for other PCs, and letting the player decide whether Pamela starts on the field or in reserve, forcing a choice between a party of 5 or a party of 4 with a reserve slot. The first thing that comes to mind with this is something like Jude (or any fast PC) gets a turn, attacks and switches in Pamela, she gets to activate her switching-in ability, then has to wait for her regular turn. And as the MK character, she's the only one who could allow Jude to switch back in. Otherwise, he's stuck in reserve til the end of the match (functionally KO'd if everyone else on the team dies).
It would probably have some interesting tanking uses, but it wouldn't be a particularly strong strategy as it removes an immediately-useful warm body from the party, but conceivably it could increase overall damage over time.
Option 2: Having two MK characters (Nikki, Roxis, Anna, Jessica all translate well for various niches). Limiting Switch to only working when you have 2 MK characters in your party. Less interesting, but functionally the same in most respects assuming you allow a reserve slot.
If this is the only palatable option, then I would suggest implementing a Nall-style pricing option. For example, Pamela (1.5) is normal, Pamela (2.0) would be "Pamela in Reserve, doesn't use up a party slot, can only switch in if another MK character is chosen". The extra 0.5 cost should cover the utility that Switch allows to a party.
Thoughts?
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I'd think it'd be simplest while being true to in game just to have 2 characters who occupy the same slot. So you could have like Nikki and Pamela or something, but only one could be in at once and you'd change them in and out. You could have the two characters be set, or could let them choose 2 from a group and set the price based on the overall options.
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Making daily doubles is never elegant in the Dungeon, but I agree that having a two-PC deal that incorporates the Vanguard is likely the way to go with MK PCs - at least in my mind. I don't like making the system universal to non-MK PCs, which applies as a general rule, but I'm very fond of how integral to the gameplay -and- the PCs ot is, given how each character had uniqie niches and skills based entirely on the Vanguard system. This would be cool to integrate within their Dungeon worth.
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The main reason I don't want them to be a forced double is because there's a few MK characters that are plenty worthwhile on their own even without Switching.
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No one has been successful with a Ryu2 team? Huh.
How does a team of Rikku, Ryu2, FFT Chemist, Lilka, and Firefly Rand look?
Rikku is very fast with MT status and buffing, including speed buffing.
Ryu2 is solid on durability and ST damage, and has Dragons to blow stuff up when needed. Rikku can use a Choco Feather on him to get him to blow stuff up faster
Chemist pairs nicely with Ryu2. Has lots of revival from the start (that restores with CT! This is pretty big!) and status blocking/healing. Is somewhat fast to boot.
Lilka is a personal favorite. But beyond favoritism there is Revival, status healing, magic damage, and of course Quicken... which I should at this point note that Quicken RETROACTIVELY boosts speed, effectively granting an instant turn to someone slower than Lilka (not an 'extra' turn, just brings their turn right after hers). This works amusingly with Rikku's speed buffs (Rikku can Choco feather Lilka who Quickens Ryu for an even faster Dragon, or Rikku Feathers Chemist who then restores MP before Lilka grants him a turn). Amusing games.
Rand Offers damage and durability and revival/healing... As a total tank who adds little otherwise to my team he is the perfect firefly recipient. Enemies would much rather aim for chemist or Rikku or Lilka. Outside ID I don't care if he is statuses either.
Biggest problem I see is a lack of consistent MT healing until late.
I'm open to suggestions about improvements.
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I think it might be better to swap out Rand for Rena or someone that way you don't have to burn a sealstone for him to be effective. His tankiness probably won't come into play unless you have some way of drawing attacks to him or the rest of the party is also pretty durable. Perhaps the Press Turn sealstone could be interesting since Lilka can hit a ton of elements and I don't think the rest of the team has any weaknesses unless Chemist equips something that gives him one.
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Put firefly on Rand instead.
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FFT revival doesn't restore CT, just that it keeps the dead PC's CT accumulating while dead. This can be either notably worse or notably better than, say, SH-style revival.
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This is still pretty good, with Lilka and Rikku to help manipulate turns so it comes at the right time
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Team Analysis:
Nina: Awesome. Worth the 3.
Scias: Also awesome. Less speed and less steady revival, but still has a lot of good things going for him. Have thought about using him on other teams.
Ursula: Decent, pretty much a third to Nina/Scias. Doesn't really stand out on her own but as third to those two more (since Scias was faster and has similar status).
Ryu: Needs a crazy drop of at least 1 point. He is...not good. Can't do anything turn 1 until floor 4 (and that is still based on his CHP and he's slow), doesn't get other dragons until floor 4, speed is never there.
Ershin: I really should have had items stuck on her. Obviously not really relevant since she's not a dungeon pick. My plan was eventually to have her set up with speed equips and then use the move that draws ST damage towards her...but floor 5.
Cray: Had items, was really of no other point.
I knew going in that the 3 person thing would be killer. Unfortunately the turn swapping had a limit in that only one of my swappers was really worth anything (the one with items!), and the said items can only be used on those in the vanguard. It did come into play a time or two and maybe made it that I never had to think about MP too much (which is kind of considerable as BoF 4 characters are not good with that), but did not really work overall.
If combo magic was allowed with picking multiple BoF 4 characters, I would definitely run a more serious team with Nina, Scias and Ursula (perhaps with Body Charge on one of them for even more pain), and then pair them with others that can actually can at the same time (and with relevant shit to do turn 1 too).
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You really think Ryu4 would be okay as a 2? I'm not so sure... Maybe 2.5?
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He is rather unimpressive for quite a while. Below average speed and needing a turn to transform means he won't be able to do anything till turn 2, and late turn 2 at that. Ryu1 has the same problem, but has better base speed to get around the issue. Ryu4's better uses are summons, which are pretty good in the dungeon format?
Dhyer may be biased against him because he didn't get to the point where he could begin being useful? Still, a slow physical attacker who doesn't even do all that much damage for 4 floors...
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I wouldn't be opposed to something like a transform sealstone. Something like:
Super Sayan Sealstone:
Any character equipped with this sealstone who has a power up, transformation, or form shit effect which takes a turn (Ryu's dragons, T260's V-Max, Legend of Dragoon, etc) may transform at the start of each fight as a free action.
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He's bad floors 1-3 (Dungeon doesn't really last long enough for Dragons to matter), passable but other with speed boosting 4-5, and kind of better on 6 afterward. However, at 6 afterward, Kaiser is 40% of his MP to transform and 10% for each turn he spends in it. Does have MT, but not amazing (and HP based, so not really buffable), so he eats up a lot of MP and doesn't get through that floor 7 fights that quickly. You probably need to either set your seal stone on him or buff him and have an effective MP restorer for him to actually terrorize later floors. Not sure when exactly he would have become all that great.
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Aeris from Final Fantasy All the Bravest, revives you forever and ever, you have to pay Neph real life $$$£££ to use her!~ :P
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Lowered Ryu4 to 2, and Jude to 1.
Lowered the speed bonus on BC to 1.2x.
Removed Press Turn sealstone and combined it with the Elemental Advance stone:
'''Elemental Advance''' - Elemental weaknesses are removed for both the player and enemy team. Elemental spells cannot be absorbed, resisted, or nullified by enemies. If an elemental weakness would have been hit by a player character, that character may cast that same spell again against the same enemy, which includes multi-target spells.
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I haven't really thought about a whole team based around it, but if someone wants to use an Elemental Advance based team, Edgar and someone like Purim who can hit a ton of elements could make an interesting core. Just have Edgar drop Debilitator, and have Purim used the corresponding Saber (I think she can hit every element FF6 except for poison which Edgar himself covers.)
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Edgar's debilitator doesn't tell you what the weakness it causes IS though? That is a big problem.
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It doesn't! You have to Scan to find it out!
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Clearly, we have finally a found a team with a use for Cid4.
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Debilitator does tell you the weakness it causes (you just can't choose which it is, though I think it will always be one that doesn't yet exist).
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Oh, okay. That's not much better considering the wealth of FF6 elemental weaknesses, though.
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Team idea:
Dorothy (3.5)
Rosa + Rydia (2.0)
Zemeckis + Hydra (2.0)
Ricardo (1.5)
[Nall (1.0)]
Slow people + Dorothy = Better people? Ricardo for MP restoring. I am considering adding Body Charge to someone and dropping Nall, but I'm not sure how that works with the paired characters.
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Body Charge doubles the cost of the paired unit but applies its benefits to both of them. Using it on Rosa+Rydia would be totes worth losing Nall and the team still wouldn't go over the pricing limit. Ricardo hitting Berserk could be worrisome, though.
(Also, does the Hydra count as a separate body? I don't -think- it does, but uh if it does you're one character over)
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Oh, okay. That's not much better considering the wealth of FF6 elemental weaknesses, though.
This is true, that's why I suggested Purim who can cover almost all of them with her elemental sabers. Mages with good elemental coverage like Cecilia could also hit most of them.
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Hydra doesn't count as a separate body.
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Okay then, updating Team Slow People + Overclock:
Dorothy (3.5)
Rosa + Rydia (Body Charge 4.0)
Zemeckis + Hydra (2.0)
Ricardo (1.5)
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First Wind is Strawman! Mind, Overclock is better for all practical purposes anyway and it's floor 2. And Dorothy is one hell of a healer with the quadra-acting deal. In fact, if that team makes it to lategame, it'll be quite the force to be reckoned with. Fast MT OHKO? Durable, non-slow healer with tons of status and resources? MP healing? Three revivers? SH3 buffs? Yeah. Early game, you'll have Dream Land to help shutting down some fights to boot. Rydia still sucks at durability, but at least she doesn't get OHKOed by the likes of Justin anymore.
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I should point out that Overclock does not take effect round 1 (so Dorothy could npt speed up the first turn of Ricardo/Zem/Hydra)
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I should point out that Overclock does not take effect round 1 (so Dorothy could npt speed up the first turn of Ricardo/Zem/Hydra)
Well fuck, this team's screwed then...
Should I just replace Dorothy with Scarecrow then? (When does he get First Wind?)
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That's the reason I scrapped by Dorothy/Body Charged Porom/Palom team.
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Virginia + Elemental Advance could work (maybe). Ginny's fast enough to force a weakness of your choice on something before anyone else acts, and then you have your other party members able to take advantage of it. The main downside is that it IS resistable, and you can only do it with elements that Ginny would have on-hand with her other mediums.
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I should point out that Overclock does not take effect round 1 (so Dorothy could npt speed up the first turn of Ricardo/Zem/Hydra)
Well fuck, this team's screwed then...
Should I just replace Dorothy with Scarecrow then? (When does he get First Wind?)
I wouldn't say you're screwed. Due to Body Charge on Rosa+Rydia, long-term you have fast crowd control and status along with a non-slow, durable healer with tons of resources who, even though comes into her own fully only by floor 4, at least has early revival and status healing, and Dorothy+Ricardo (whose healing is pretty danged powerful early, having floor 1 revival and MT healing that starts rather potent) will pick up the slack earlier on for healing. Zemeckis+Hydra cover physical offense and will handle problems in the early going as long as you don't mind the ST (and with Dream Land, it's likely you won't). It's a fairly complete package, and Dream Land (accurate MT status that's very good at shutting down a lot of PC fights) will definitely come in handy and is -floor 1-. To boot, your slowest PC is average speed. You'll be fine.
By the way, I meant it when Overclocked is strictly better unless you give TB initiative more respect than capped TB speed. First Wind also only activates on the next turn and is ST, and while it's floor 1, Overclock is floor 2. So um yeah.
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Yeah, with 3 speedy folks, and an above average speed Ricardo You should be fine.
Dorothy gets hype from me on durability as I allow the defend whoring. Others may do the same. Also very late but her and Zemekis can buff phys offense to the stratosphere.
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Moving Hilda to 2.5.
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So... any thoughts on adding at least Pamela to the roster? No MK switching tricks or anything. Just to see how she works out.
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I'm not sure she's worth even over a 1.0 in the boiling of eggs and she's very uninteresting for a long time. Slow as fuck single-target status whoring that drains her HP off the egregious durability score and there's not much she can do to really take advantage of Immortal Body until like floor 5 or 6. Even then, she exists mostly as a physical wall and has resource issues if she goes for the parasitic party healing option. Although she could make a very weird Firefly user in a sense, but Firefly is one of the most overused sealstones as it stands...
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It's true enough that she's not a very good pick on her own, but she can do an odd variety of things that just might fill some good niches in a team, particularly if she's priced at only 1.0/1.5
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That's true enough. And I guess 1.0 is a barren wasteland as it stands. You could find creative uses for her ST parasitic healing and Firefly+Immortal Body, which could be a pain in the ass if you pull it off, but speed is an issue.
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Maybe throw some type of SP regen on her to theoretically simulate the effects of that part of switching so that she can at least use that MT draining a few times?
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Hrm. Now I have to brainstorm how to one-up 5 points =(
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use PCs that other people haven't used before and call it a team?
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Team Tactics (10 pts)
Ramza (3 pts)
Chemist (2 pts)
Ninja (2 pts)
Worker 8 (2 pts)
Beowulf (1 pt)
Edit: If Neph is willing (I think my teams make him sad), I'd happily take a synergy bonus here.
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The wiki page on sealstones says that synergy bonuses take the sealstone slot, so I would definately take whatever Neph will give you for that instead of a sealstone.
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And since you're already short a point, it could be a pretty decent bonus. Agrias w/ Chemist stuff (including Item / Auto-Potion) rather than Chemist, perhaps?
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UPDATE:
Mei-ling's Koorong Freakshow Male Prostitution Ring
Geno (3.0), Mei-ling (2.5), Yuri1 (3.5), Hope (1.5, Speed?), Beecham (0.5)
Eh, shuffling things around because my last team suddenly turned illegal with Hilda going up to 2.5. Basic idea is pretty much the same, only with less fweem, more FFXIII and even less durability. Also, using Beecham because harem.
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Sounds like a decent idea. I've specifically avoided trying to take synergy bonuses in the past to spare Neph, but it'd be fun to see what happens here.
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Went back to find my team as it should be, since the first post wasn't updated with it.
Vantage Sealstone:
Shadow (2.5)
Ramza (3.0)
Tidus (2.5)
Elincia (2.5)
Moulder (0.5)
General idea is that Shadow can smash things about with Interceptor if they're, y'know, any kind of physical. (As far as I know, at least. Might be wrong about that, but it's still hilariously awesome.) Elincia and Moulder are both capable healers and.. Elincia's a capable damage dealer too! Plus, evasion hype to go with counter hype! Ramza acts as yet another healer, while also getting reaction commands for more Vantage abuse. Tidus throws around some ridiculous speed shenanigans as well as eventually getting Caladbolg for absolutely ridiculous Vantage abuse.
Still not sure how useful Tidus is in here, wouldn't mind a half-decent mage early on, but not sure who. Any thoughts?
(For now, Neph, go with this team, and I'll update it if any changes are made.)
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After tgis team, my next will be...
Rikku, Ryu2, Lilka, FFT Chemist, and Firefly Rand.
Ryu2 screams out for a chemist pairing. Rikku is a pretty cool 4.0, I like Lilka, and Firefly Rand works in this format.
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It would probably be a major administrative pain and might end up wildly overpowered with Chemist in play, but I always thought that allowing spillover jp (something like 150 jp per floor) would be the coolest synergy bonus possible for an all-FFT team.
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That's pretty <3.
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Since I'm not too knowledgeable on how spillover works, I'll have to think about something I can make sense of for it, but I'll come up with something.
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I can help you out with that if you want. Hit me up when I'm on mIRC.
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Rika (4.0) (Multitarget)
Miakis (4.0)
Purim (3.0)
Now, let's see if this experiment turns up the results I want.
EDIT: Nevermind, it was a stupid idea.
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I cannot possibly fathom what you're trying to accomplish with Multitarget on Rika. The only remotely relevant things she has that aren't MT are Shift and Eliminat, and it's not worth gimping the effectiveness of all her skillset redundantly just for turn two MT ID and a middling attack buff on a team where you have only -one- potential heavy-duty physicaller. You also have no revival -at all- until late, so your entire strategy will fall apart as soon as someone dies from floor 1-5 minimum. Unless you're trying to make a Rika team that loses to floor 1 (in which case, go nuts, though floor 1 is so bad I think Miakis+Rika risk soloing it -anyway-), I dunno what's the deal there.
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Unless you're trying to make a Rika team that loses to floor 1 (in which case, go nuts, though floor 1 is so bad I think Miakis+Rika risk soloing it -anyway-), I dunno what's the deal there.
That's the entire point.
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Rika+Purim do have some neat synergy with Rika's MT physical move and the Saber spells, but I agree with Jo'ou that the team is really too much of a late bloomer in terms of skillset and revival. It'd definately be a better choice to swap Miakis out with 2 or 3 less expensive characters.
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He wants to lose with the team anyway. Whatever gets someone's mojo going, really.
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2 of 3 of them may not even get any skills floor 1!
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Rika starts with Res and Illusion, so that's not -that- big a problem. Now, Purim. Hooooooooooly crap.
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Right, she at least has something. I think the team would fall in the second match (Cecil, Galleon and Knight all give that team fits).
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Oh, true. Miakis being all elemental is :nergal: there.
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I am putting things on a temporary hold as I try and come up with some ways to make the Dungeon a bit more interesting.
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So, I've had some time to think about this, and I'd like to present everyone with a question: Why do you do the Dungeon?
I created the Dungeon to be a fun challenge of a variety of teams facing a seemingly insurmountable task of defeating it. In my own way, I wanted it to be unbeatable. I can respect the fact that that isn't why people play it, to be defeated -- they want to succeed.
I think my problem is that for the later floors, it usually requires things that I'd consider "cheap" or "broken" mechanics to get through. It's hard to reconcile those differences in team design with the sheer amount of absurdity that the later floors have to have.
So, I guess my ultimate question is: When is the Dungeon the most interesting? I know I can make things more engaging, I think it just requires that I put more thought into floor mechanics and theme.
I appreciate everyone's enthusiasm in it and don't have any plans to quit on this anytime soon, I just need to find a way to make it more fun.
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I personally enjoy the Dungeon because I like Team Battles. I like seeing big parties fighting each other and trying to figure out what strategies would work best.
I personally would be more likely to vote if each floor had fewer fights, though. The resources aspect is important, but I feel like the sheer number of enemy duellers I have to look up every time I try to vote is staggering.
Thematically, I like seeing enemy fights that have some sort of interesting synergy, or big groups from the same series crossing over. I also like the unique mechanics floors like reverse heal and MT/ST since they force looking at teams in a different way.
I find myself less and less concerned with the "Improve over time" aspect of the dungeon. Trying to remember what duelists are like 2/3rds of the way through their game is far more work now that there's such a ridiculous number of games I have to keep track of.
Still a really fun tournament in general, and building a team is always my favorite part. :)
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I like looking at team options and seeing how they work together.
I will agree that floors could stand to be shorter. Maybe only one grind floor instead of each one being a grind. Resource management can be an issue but it feels like too major a one.
I think you should allow healing and revival between fights. Too often it comes down to 'let one enemy live, heal up!' which is silly.
Shorter floors with harder fights would be cooler. I think.
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What I personally like about the Dungeon is the metagaming. This is the most fluid part of the dungeon in theory, and I really like comparing how theorycrafting teams work in the practical gameplan.
That said, I feel like sometimes the dungeon tried to be too thematic in lieu of more exciting and interesting fight designs. Honestly, lowering the amount of fights in a given floor wouldn't be a bad idea for less repetition and more room for breathing. I already feel the dungeon is too much of a resource grind as is (multiple healer-revivers are absolutely mandatory, for instance). Another thing I kinda miss is the more surreal designs of the really early dungeon - stuff like Connie x9 or the White Rose swarm. But this gets into whimsies.
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I created the Dungeon to be a fun challenge of a variety of teams facing a seemingly insurmountable task of defeating it. In my own way, I wanted it to be unbeatable. I can respect the fact that that isn't why people play it, to be defeated -- they want to succeed.
I think my problem is that for the later floors, it usually requires things that I'd consider "cheap" or "broken" mechanics to get through. It's hard to reconcile those differences in team design with the sheer amount of absurdity that the later floors have to have.
I think this is what's inevitably going to happen when you design the later floors to be unbeatable. I think toning down both the last few floors and also the aftergame bonuses is an easy fix to reducing cheapness. If teams don't have to rely on cheap strategies to win, than they won't use them.
I think there's a fairly even split between experimentation and desire to succeed. For example, my current team is more experimentation based because I find the fact of all the team members dodging Explosion with Saner to be funny, and I know there's eventually going to be a floor that's able to outspeed Rika and poke Mew to shut it down or something.
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Pretty much seeing what works or what is fun together and seeing how it pans out in practice. Beating would be nice but I kind of think that's a tertiary goal. That said...
That said, I feel like sometimes the dungeon tried to be too thematic in lieu of more exciting and interesting fight designs. Honestly, lowering the amount of fights in a given floor wouldn't be a bad idea for less repetition and more room for breathing.
I pretty much agree with this sentiment. When a theme works and is interesting, great. On the other hand some themes really shouldn't be forced if they create too many scrubfights. Granted there's sort of a risk of that happening anyways, but cutting down on floor length should reduce that.
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Another chime in for "shorter floors, but harder fights." Especially with potentially more durable bosses (or fights setup in a way to increase enemy durability) since that may help remove at least some rocket tag aspects.
I will say that I do like general quirk floors, although I suppose in the last dungeon incarnation they all came in a row (3-5) so there is just a stretch of dungeon of "how well do you exploit this quirk." Although I do generally like what was done with the ST/MT floors (any option is usable, but ST or MT becomes that much better). I do think that quirks work to shake up the general format since ~6-7 floors (generally probably about the average) of non-quirk gets repetitive.
I also like seeing how well a team or strategy gels together more than winning. On overpoweredness, the overpower combos were all essentially based on turn shifting (or speed shifts) so pricing those higher will also get rid of some of it. If the combo exists, people are going to try to find a way to take advantage of it.
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I personally enjoy the Dungeon because I like Team Battles. I like seeing big parties fighting each other and trying to figure out what strategies would work best.
I personally would be more likely to vote if each floor had fewer fights, though. The resources aspect is important, but I feel like the sheer number of enemy duellers I have to look up every time I try to vote is staggering.
Thematically, I like seeing enemy fights that have some sort of interesting synergy, or big groups from the same series crossing over. I also like the unique mechanics floors like reverse heal and MT/ST since they force looking at teams in a different way.
I find myself less and less concerned with the "Improve over time" aspect of the dungeon. Trying to remember what duelists are like 2/3rds of the way through their game is far more work now that there's such a ridiculous number of games I have to keep track of.
Still a really fun tournament in general, and building a team is always my favorite part. :)
This, so many times over.
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Hmm... I like Pyro's idea of making the "Default" of the Dungeon to heal between fights. Maybe not Full-Heals, though. Maybe just restore everyone's HP to full between fights.
This keeps MP a limited resource to avoid high-cost damage moves becoming overpowered since they can be used every fight, but it prevents the constant need for Stall-Healing between every endgame fight.
I would also not suggest defaulting to Between-fight Revival. This preserves the current emphasis on resources and makes Stall-Healing/Buffing a viable strategy, but not a necessary one.
Streamlines the whole experience a bit.
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You'd really have to strongly up separate fight difficulty to compensate. Attrition is how general dungeon tends to get a lot of it's kills.
It also adds in a layer of having to remember what healing spells can and can't be used between fights. The other balance is that certain enemy status should also then carry over between fights too. This isn't to say I'm against it, just that it's a shift that would need balancing factors.
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You'd really have to strongly up separate fight difficulty to compensate. Attrition is how general dungeon tends to get a lot of it's kills.
It also adds in a layer of having to remember what healing spells can and can't be used between fights. The other balance is that certain enemy status should also then carry over between fights too. This isn't to say I'm against it, just that it's a shift that would need balancing factors.
I wasn't suggesting anything so complicated as that.
Leave things basically as they are, but just auto-refill all living PCs' HP between battles as a system function. This gets rid of the need to stall-heal at the end of -every- battle.
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You'd really have to strongly up separate fight difficulty to compensate. Attrition is how general dungeon tends to get a lot of it's kills.
It also adds in a layer of having to remember what healing spells can and can't be used between fights. The other balance is that certain enemy status should also then carry over between fights too. This isn't to say I'm against it, just that it's a shift that would need balancing factors.
I wasn't suggesting anything so complicated as that.
Leave things basically as they are, but just auto-refill all living PCs' HP between battles as a system function. This gets rid of the need to stall-heal at the end of -every- battle.
Well what Pyro suggested WAS what Dhyer said.
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Thank you for the responses. From my perspective, if I make fewer fights (let's say four instead of five) I would have to increase the fight strength, which might end up just including more things, which means you have to end up... well, looking up more things.
Perhaps I can just make it so each fight on each floor is from a set game, so that there aren't 20 different games potentially represented on any given floor.
I'll see if I can remove a fight from some of the earlier floors and maybe slightly tweak them to compensate for that difference and see where that goes.
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There are alts to fights with a lot of people, and that's finding some way to up durability of some fights (Enemies on a certain floor could all start with certain buffs). Or use of bosses with PCs or passable heal bots with some speed.
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So Team Exploding Cat got about as far as I expected so I'll break down how I felt that each of the characters performed.
Rika: Obvious MVP. Her biggest faults are the lack of revival and lowish damage, but her skillset just has so much synergy with almost any team that it makes up with it. Even then, Deban and Saner can help reduce the need for revival and ID covers for the damage in a number of fights. One of the few characters who works really well with Nall.
Elincia: Kind of around, didn't really feel like a detriment or asset either way. She worked decently with the team, but I think you'd really have to work to get the most out of her. She would probably have a lot of synergy boosting up some iffy status rates though.
Mew: Mew's sort of odd. Exploding on things with Saner's help was pretty cool and Light Screen was really awesome. The status vulnerability sucks though, and some of his buffs are too self focused. Really wishes he had some status options of his own and one or two more skill slots.
Yukiko: Worked surprising well with Rika. Rika can make up for her healing slump in the middle and she can provide very good revival and a bit more of a damage punch that when combined with Rika's MT physical move only needs a bit more MT punch to get up to the 2.5 threshold. I'm not sure how much she needs Elemental Advance, but she's great with it.
Nall: Worked well with Rika, but I suspect he would be kind of mediocre if you didn't splurge on a character like Rika or Nina 1 to help him out.
I've got an idea for a team that could be a real winner, but I'm gonna hold off on posting it a bit.
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I'm torn between two options at the moment. One is to try and mimic my recent Pokemon VGC team and run a Whimsicott that sets up Tailwind and then attempts to spam Helping Hand if it survives past that. (With Nall so that Tailwind can go up instantly each turn, barring initiative)
The other option is to run Mew instead and go for a slow team of threats, try to tank until F4 and then use Mew w/Trick Room.
I figure the first option is better because double speed is absolutely insane and there are practically no threats in the Dungeon that are both slow enough to abuse TR and durable enough to survive the first round.
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Is Trick Room the speed reversing skill? I'm sure you could find some people who fit that bill... Raquel comes to mind, but I don't know about others.
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Emily (3.0), Kevin (1.5), Orlandu (4.0), MonkFF1 (1.0), Knight (1.5)
Fuck things like 'skillsets', 'revival', and 'winning'.
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New Team!
Mei-Ling(2.5), Feena(2.5), Aika (2.5), White Rose (2.0), FFT Monk (1.5) Vantage Sealstone
Main idea behind this team is abusing Delta Shield and Light Sword Deflect with Vantage which covers almost everything except for MT physicals. Even then, the enemy team still has to get past speedy PC HP level MT magic damage from 2x Megawindblast and whatever Feena can produce. Monk and Mei Ling provide some good physical damage as a back up and towards the endgame Feena can bail the team out with Time Gate if necessary and Monk can restore her MP for the next fight. I suppose the biggest concern is durability, but even then, Delta Shield and Deflect should be hard to break with this much healing.
Any thoughts or recommendations?
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New Team!
Mei-Ling(2.5), Feena(2.5), Aika (2.5), White Rose (2.0), FFT Monk (1.5) Vantage Sealstone
Main idea behind this team is abusing Delta Shield and Light Sword Deflect with Vantage which covers almost everything except for MT physicals. Even then, the enemy team still has to get past speedy PC HP level MT magic damage from 2x Megawindblast and whatever Feena can produce. Monk and Mei Ling provide some good physical damage as a back up and towards the endgame Feena can bail the team out with Time Gate if necessary and Monk can restore her MP for the next fight. I suppose the biggest concern is durability, but even then, Delta Shield and Deflect should be hard to break with this much healing.
Any thoughts or recommendations?
Vantage teams are fun, and Aika is a solid choice for one. I don't know the SaGa ladies, but do either have revival? If not, my only concern is that FFT Monk is your only reviver for awhile (Feena doesn't get it for awhile, I think.) The mid-floors could be dicey.
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New Team!
Mei-Ling(2.5), Feena(2.5), Aika (2.5), White Rose (2.0), FFT Monk (1.5) Vantage Sealstone
Main idea behind this team is abusing Delta Shield and Light Sword Deflect with Vantage which covers almost everything except for MT physicals. Even then, the enemy team still has to get past speedy PC HP level MT magic damage from 2x Megawindblast and whatever Feena can produce. Monk and Mei Ling provide some good physical damage as a back up and towards the endgame Feena can bail the team out with Time Gate if necessary and Monk can restore her MP for the next fight. I suppose the biggest concern is durability, but even then, Delta Shield and Deflect should be hard to break with this much healing.
Any thoughts or recommendations?
Vantage teams are fun, and Aika is a solid choice for one. I don't know the SaGa ladies, but do either have revival? If not, my only concern is that FFT Monk is your only reviver for awhile (Feena doesn't get it for awhile, I think.) The mid-floors could be dicey.
They do, Starlight Heal is the usual weird Saga Frontier healing/revival combo. I admit, I was encouraged when I saw your team and most people agreed that Delta Shield was Floor 2 for your team. It'll help the team get to floor 3 or 4 which is about when Mei Ling and White Rose will get Megawindblast/Light Sword.
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I can't wait for your team to break the Dungeon and get Aika banned or increased another full point~ ^_^
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At least Delta Shield and casting Lightsword conflict. But yeah, nasty combo.
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There are types of status (Galaxy stop) that get through that setup. It's also seriously low on damage. It's a neat setup, but not dungeon breaking.
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At least Delta Shield and casting Lightsword conflict. But yeah, nasty combo.
I think Light Sword is also an initiative skill so depending on speed views they could get both up at once. Unfortunately, I think Aika outspeeds both White Rose and Mei Ling (although White Rose may be faster early.)
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At least Delta Shield and casting Lightsword conflict. But yeah, nasty combo.
Why would they? You can stack Delta Shield & Justice Shield in-game (and Aika is faster than Enrique).
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At least Delta Shield and casting Lightsword conflict. But yeah, nasty combo.
Why would they? You can stack Delta Shield & Justice Shield in-game (and Aika is faster than Enrique).
Well, Justice Shield and Aura of Denial aren't really magic. If Lightsword is magic, there's an argument to be made that it would be stopped by Delta Shield.
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As a self-only buff I'd have a hard time seeing LightSword get stopped by something designed to prevent incoming attacks. Especially since, as noted, you'd have to argue that LightSword is going second without any evidence that it would do so (except apparently that SoA buffs resolve in speed order?).
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Piggyman has a point, actually, Justice Shield is a tech, not magic... and Saga has both techs and magic, and Light Sword Deflect is apparently "Light Magic." So there is a reasonable argument that Delta Shield stops it.
The order of initiative in Skies doesn't really matter, everything that has initiative is defensive in nature (Fina's healing, everyone else's counterstances + shields), it could go in alphabetical order for all that it matters.
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As a self-only buff I'd have a hard time seeing LightSword get stopped by something designed to prevent incoming attacks. Especially since, as noted, you'd have to argue that LightSword is going second without any evidence that it would do so (except apparently that SoA buffs resolve in speed order?).
Delta Shield stops all magic, though, regardless whether it's offensive or defensive in nature. Increm and Sacres are both stopped by it. Whether you consider Lightsword magic or not is another question, and I can't really provide input on that, having not played SaGa, but if it is magic, I think the only way you could consider it not being blocked is if you consider it going first.
Also, you could tiebreak which one ought to go first based on which initiative is more "powerful" in-game. Skies of Arcadia initiative beats absolutely everything (I'm pretty sure). If there's any move that goes before Lightsword in SaGa Frontier, that might mean it loses in a tiebreak.
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I don't think anyone is arguing that Delta Shield prevents Light Sword's deflect bonus from working, just that if Aika uses Delta Shield than White Rose or Mei Ling can't cast the spell in the first place. If the team needs both skills up, they have to make it through a turn without Delta Shield while White Rose and/or Mei-Ling set up Light Sword. So it really only matters on the first turn or so.
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Saga and Skies both feel like they have initiative moves all over the place (about 7% of Saga Frontier's abilities are!). That said Saga has bosses who get initiative so good it beats everything you do (mechanically it's a free "turn" before you get your first) so Saga initiative is pretty damn low on the list of initiatives to respect. Dunno if Skies has anything similar. Silver Nightmare? I forget.
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If I am missing anyone in the current team list on the first page, please post and let me know, as I'm going to wipe it clean soon and start over.
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I think I had Rikku, Ryu2, Chemist, Lilka, and (Firefly) Rand?
Anyone got suggestions for this team? See major problems on floor 1? <_<
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Grenades are pretty great floor 1 though.
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If anyone is looking for some inspiration, look no further: http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php/Old_Dungeon_Teams
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My VBL team wasn't
"Djinn | Cloud, Raquel, Yulie, Aika - Violent Burst Law"
It had Aeris and Tear in there to truly abuse VBL! Having two WA4 PCs on a VBL team is detrimental to your resources.
Djinn | Cloud, Raquel, Aika, Aeris, Tear - Violent Burst Law
I only bother putting it here because I was gonna just edit the wiki but it's been so long since I logged into it, I don't have my login info anymore. Is there anyone who can look it up or make me a new account?
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I can't promise the teams listed were the ones that got in, since they were just what I had C/P'ed from then. It isn't my fault if you change your mind!
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All right, so I have a few suggestions on how to make things a little easier to vote on. Dhyer brought this up, so I'd love to get some feedback.
Assume the following:
All characters should be scaled to level 1, except in the following situations:
*Characters join at a much higher level in-game (Rune, Marcus)
*Characters join after the start of the game. In this situation, treat the character as with their stats that they join with -at the time of their joining- and scale them against that average until they would officially join. In effect, they stay static on their stats until they would have normally joined.
*Something terrible happens if you do this. (Suikoden characters, perhaps?)
Any character who joins later on should keep their skills and abilities, but they would get compared against the abilities of others at the time.
In addition, it would be -amazing- if some people could throw on the wiki some guidelines to characters, much like Snowfire did with DQ8. Take Mew for example, if someone could jot some notes down on something like 'Stats are 50% above average until Floor 5, damage should be considered to be easily in the 2HKO range' or something like that.
My goal for these ideas is to make things easier to vote on so this seems a lot less daunting to get into and analyze.
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I don't follow. What does "scaled to level 1" even mean? The Ancient Cave example? Just use "scaled to join time" except sometimes that join time is the start of the game. (e.g. it makes 0 sense for Cecil & Kain to be scaled to level 1 when the game starts with them at level 10, and only Rydia joins at level 1.) As far as staying static until they actually join, I think that's what everyone already does - so someone who joins on "Floor 3" should perform exactly the same on Floors 1-3.
Anyway, I don't think that makes anything any easier. It's *harder* to make up fake averages where everyone levels at the same rate or something than just use the in-game rates. Characters with a "minor" level bonus should still have that advantage, and that also creates a huge interp split for characters where it's not clear if they're "much higher" or not.
If people want to make it easier to vote on (and I know many / most people do this already), then I strongly recommend just taking a snapshot at the end of the floor and running with that the entire floor. (Pretend a stat topic was made at the end of a Dungeon that's the end of Floor 2 or whatever.) There are already issues with chopping a game into 6.5-7 equal parts; no need to chop it into 30 parts, and it also neatly escapes the problem that comes when more MP is acquired in the middle of a floor for the per-battle interp. (Do Suikoden characters magically acquire a L4 charge upon leveling up mid-floor despite having their MP nuked to 0 earlier?!) It also makes Floor 1 a lot more sane, as many casts are wacky in the VERY beginning and don't function at all like they do later, and screwing them over for that doesn't feel fair.
I will say that a few weird characters could potentially just use a forced interp to make their casting clear. I'd always assumed that Mew was assuming you got gifted an L5 Mew at game-start for example, but Elf & others suggested scaling him to an endgame join instead. No dog in that fight, just make it clear since his power apparently fluctuates a good deal based on that.
tl;dr: "Late joins are scaled to join time, scale to normal gamestate after they'd join." (aka the status quo?)
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The FF4 example is exactly what I meant. Cecil and (hypothetically) Kain would begin the Dungeon at level 10 with their stats since that's how they begin the game. I guess I should've made it more clear and say "Assume everyone starts the way they start in their home game and continue normally after that, except in the case of people who join after that, who should be scaled based on when they join."
Your idea of taking the snapshot at the end of the floor is probably a better way to handle the general idea as well.
It may have already been the status quo on the matter, but I thought it best to at least try and state what that status quo was in case other people had differing views that made it more complicated. I didn't mean to insinuate that people should level at the same rate, if you have someone who has a really high experience gain, that should be taken into account.
As for making specific rules for specific characters, yes, I think that would be the best for cases like Mew as well.
EDIT: Also, that was the idea on how to make it easier, if someone made, say a CT Miniguide that said something like:
Floor 1: Crono is average damage, Marle is below average, Lucca is also below average
Floor 2: All characters are average damage, Marle has Ice which is above average
And so on, it'd make it a lot easier to have that "Floor 2 damage average" or what-have-you.
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With regards to Mew, it's probably safe to say he starts with stats around 150% average that converge at a fairly constant rate to his 120% endgame average (so about 5% per floor maybe?). Damage is a bit more complex. It probably stays above average most of the time which is especially strong around the mid game floors when Mew can run with Earthquake or Psychic around floor 2-4 before everyone else can get their endgame moves.
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Mew is aftergame so the easiest is just using the DL stats. I guess it's probably easiest to take whatever someone has at the end of the floor at the beginning.
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Mew is aftergame so the easiest is just using the DL stats. I guess it's probably easiest to take whatever someone has at the end of the floor at the beginning.
I disagree. It's unintuitive to compare Mew's stats to endgame while limiting him to TMs by floor. If you compare Mew's stats to endgame then it makes sense to also give him endgame TM options. I think Mew is more interesting if you compare him to other pokemon available on the floor and it makes him more consistent with the other pokemon team options like Alakazam. Pokemon stats are fairly easy to scale backwards, especially for a pokemon like Mew who have the same value for each stat.
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Mew stats are probably closer to 180-200% average for the first couple floors, using starters/Pidgey/etc. as a guide. Mew is pretty much the exact type of character I feel is a bad fit for the dungeon, though. Are its stats 120% average or 150-200% average? Who knows! It's a total wild judgement call because this is a character which doesn't exist in-game without hacking!
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I'm not opposed to removing weird outliers like that, but I think if we came up with a very specific ruling on things like Mew it'd make it at least a bit less weird.
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I definitely agree that characters like Mew need a specific ruling on how their stats scale (and priced accordingly) as the votesplit seen in Dhyer vs. dude is far too large otherwise. It worked well enough for Athos, as I recall.
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It probably could have saved some heartbreak with Kyogre, too!
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This is what I currently have for new teams as of this date. Please post if you have any additions.
Pyro | Rikku, Ryu2, Lilka, FFT Chemist, and Firefly Rand.
Jo'ou | Geno (3.0), Mei-ling (2.5), Yuri1 (3.5), Hope (1.5, Speed?), Beecham (0.5)
Andy | Ramza, Chemist, Ninja, Worker 8, Beowulf (Some sort of Synergy)
dude | Mei-Ling, Feena, Aika, White Rose, FFT Monk (Vantage)
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Cecilia (3.5), Alys (3), Alakazam (2.5), WW (1.5), Jean (0.5)
Speed (?)
Thought process is I don't really see these people used at all. Obviously lacking in great physical slugging and I'll try to refine the team a little, but here's at least a start.
Modify to
Cecilia (3.5), Alys (3), Terra (2.5), Ronfar (1), Jean (1, Lunar 2)
Alakazam apparentally doesn't get a lot of skillset access early (Jeiganesque stats may make up for that, but not sure how he's intended to be scaled early), I misread WW's description, and Jean was just because no one picked up. So...better all around mage (losing speed and Reflect Later for Revival, not dying to physical and a few nice status blockers), healer who probably has an earlier spell selection, and Jean to help the team early with some decent physical damage.
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Since it got lost.
The listed team already failed out in the dungeon. I made a new team that looks more like...
Team Tactics (10 pts)
Ramza (3 pts)
Chemist (2 pts)
Ninja (2 pts)
Worker 8 (2 pts)
Beowulf (1 pt)
Edit: If Neph is willing (I think my teams make him sad), I'd happily take a synergy bonus here.
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oh right i should make a new team shouldn't i
Team I Don't Know What The Hell I'm Doing
Yuri2 (3.5)
Hilda (2.5)
FFT Chemist (2)
Raquel/Speed? (2)
Raynie (1)
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Team Initiative Shenanigans!
Mei-Ling (2.5) - QuickDraw Gunner!
Whimsicott (2.5) - Prankster Status Whore!
Nina 1 (2.5) - Initiative Healer!
Ryu 1 (2.5) - Initiative Dragons! (..eventually, damn he is overpriced)
Gilder (1.5) - Aura of Denial Status Blocker! (also overpriced)
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Ryu1 feels more about decent MT physicals which hover around borderline 2HKO, off good speed, than he does about dragons. Would be good in conjunction with strength-raising things, I would imagine. (Might still be overpriced though.)
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I'd only argue that the dragons do have status immunity and are initiative. I don't know if he's really overpriced, but I could maybe see him as a 2.0...
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Ness (Speed?), Princess Toadstool, Mesarthim, Arnaud, Ricardo.
Sure, why not? Let's see how I crash.
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Well, Team Elincia was fun. It definitely would have owned most of the alternate floor 7, which is kind of what it was designed to do, and had fun trivailizing floor 6. Not enough sheer broken for the aftergame anyway, the buffs game is nice for surviving straight damage and lots of status healing can deal with one ST status-slinger, but too much MT status (or lots of ST ID) is trouble.
Anyway, since that was a semi-serious team, back to a themed team a la my Lunar team & FF13 team. Let's not lose to status this time: I'll take Status Symbol Law for the sealstone. The team:
Guv, Yangus, Jessica, Angelo (Dragon Quest 8)
Badass King Trode (Shadowy Dragon Hearts Quest 2) (aka Yuri if he spends all his time transformed into a green thing)
(I'm assuming that unranked Yangus is a 0.0ish pick, because he's basically worse than DW1 Hero in the Dungeon. Or that Neph throws me a bone for synergy. Guv is a wee bit overpriced at 2.5 anyway, so if Yangus is a 0.25 and Guv is a 2.25 it works out. 2.5+0+3+2+3.5 = 11.)
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Yangus would probably get a Meteorite Bracer and Timbrel of Tension on Floor 7!
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Ryu1 feels more about decent MT physicals which hover around borderline 2HKO, off good speed, than he does about dragons. Would be good in conjunction with strength-raising things, I would imagine. (Might still be overpriced though.)
He might not reach the 2HKO with a boomerang. The stat topic lists him with the Dragon Sword which is his best attack weapon, and a lot of that 2HKO damage comes from the crit rate. If boomerangs have a lower crit rate than his damage is probably quite a bit below a 2HKO.
I think Zalmo could probably use a price drop as well especially since Toadstool is a 2.5 now. She beats him in almost every category aside from durability. In particular her two debilitating status effects probably close the durability gap by themselves. It makes more sense for them to be priced the same.
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Crit rate is based on the PC in BoF1, not weapon. And there are points where boomerangs are quite powerful, sometimes better than the best sword despite all logic. But you're right, it's definitely not all points.
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Sure, I'll do some point analysis post in the future and see if there's anyone else that needs to be changed.
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Most famously, as soon as you get the big Nina bird, you can go grab the Tri-Rang if you're an exploratory type, which is literally Ryu's strongest weapon until the right-after-Jade but-before-Tyr EmporSd. And isn't THAT bad an offense drop. (And there's times earlier when the middle Boomerang is best for Ryu too, though it has a longer time to fade I guess.)
Also, what, I see Elf ninja edited in new averages to the BoF1 stat topic. Where... the lower-leveled damage average is higher than the high level damage average?! Ah, baking in crit rate to the damages, I see. I think that's a little unfair to the cast - take Ryu, a 16% crit rate only has a 50% chance of happening after 4 actions, and a 65% chance of happening after 6 actions. If the crit rate doesn't show up in a 3-turn average, I think it's best to keep it from the damage averages. Which means that only uh Karn and GOBI get crit hype baked into the damage average. (This'd help Ry1u out a bit too if using the lower level damage averages to use the more generous interp.) (Flip side, BoF1 cast is already a tad inflated due to sterling additions like the mighty Mogu, so who knows.)
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Actually, the higher-levelled numbers bake in crits too! The reason it is lower is because there are some sub-optimal weapon choices. I think what happened is that Meeple used a number of weapons which hit weakness on "demons" (which notably, Jade and Myria are, which were used for testing). Once he realised this, he removed the +50% damage boost those weapons provide, but overlooked a couple weapon options which were now stronger. (This was nearly a decade ago so apologies to Meeple/anyone else if this isn't exactly what happened.)
I'll go edit in a no-crit average for the lower-levelled averages now (higher-levelled damage average is just kinda tainted and useless at the moment, sadly... but levels don't impact damage tremendously anyway so eh).
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I kind of doubt Ryu1 hits a 2HKO at much of any point with his physical except at the very end with Emperor Sword (which is F7 and whoo ST 2HKO at F7). He's not even all that fast for most of the game? Endgame he gets to be fast because all his Dragon Armor is like 0 weight.
Ryu1 just isn't very good in the dungeon. The dragon transforms aren't terribly useful when you consider that they take a turn and the dungeon is blitzkreig.
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I'm thinking of adding Multitarget to Whimsicott for my team. But I can't remember if his status hit rate is good enough to take the hit to make it worth it?
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I'm thinking of adding Multitarget to Whimsicott for my team. But I can't remember if his status hit rate is good enough to take the hit to make it worth it?
With MT Sealstone, these would be the new accuracy rates of Whimsicott's status moves:
Leech Seed would drop to 60% accuracy. (I'm assuming Leech Seed is considered a status?)
Stun Spore would drop to 50% accuracy.
POIZN POWDER would drop to 50% accuracy.
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Ryu1 feels more about decent MT physicals which hover around borderline 2HKO, off good speed, than he does about dragons. Would be good in conjunction with strength-raising things, I would imagine. (Might still be overpriced though.)
He might not reach the 2HKO with a boomerang. The stat topic lists him with the Dragon Sword which is his best attack weapon, and a lot of that 2HKO damage comes from the crit rate. If boomerangs have a lower crit rate than his damage is probably quite a bit below a 2HKO.
I think Zalmo could probably use a price drop as well especially since Toadstool is a 2.5 now. She beats him in almost every category aside from durability. In particular her two debilitating status effects probably close the durability gap by themselves. It makes more sense for them to be priced the same.
But...Toadstool is such a joke for several floors and I don't even think she gets revival? Bad 2.5 benchmark to compare to (Zalmo's niche is immediate access to full revival). Not to say anything about Zalmo, but Toadstool has such extreme early issues.
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Toadstool gets full revival at F5. She's pretty bad stat-wise for at least four floors, though, and she gets to contribute with nothing besides MT full healing+status healing off egregious durability (there's worse things to contribute, at least, but um yeah dat HP). Her fundamental problem is that she takes around half a game to pick up steam.
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I'm thinking of adding Multitarget to Whimsicott for my team. But I can't remember if his status hit rate is good enough to take the hit to make it worth it?
With MT Sealstone, these would be the new accuracy rates of Whimsicott's status moves:
Leech Seed would drop to 60% accuracy. (I'm assuming Leech Seed is considered a status?)
Stun Spore would drop to 50% accuracy.
POIZN POWDER would drop to 50% accuracy.
Wait... that's all his status moves? I thought he got a ton of them? At least Paralysis or Confusion...
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I'm thinking of adding Multitarget to Whimsicott for my team. But I can't remember if his status hit rate is good enough to take the hit to make it worth it?
With MT Sealstone, these would be the new accuracy rates of Whimsicott's status moves:
Leech Seed would drop to 60% accuracy. (I'm assuming Leech Seed is considered a status?)
Stun Spore would drop to 50% accuracy.
POIZN POWDER would drop to 50% accuracy.
Wait... that's all his status moves? I thought he got a ton of them? At least Paralysis or Confusion...
Stun Spore is Paralysis. He actually does get Confusion in the form of Swagger (which also increases the target's Attack), but that only shows up on Floor 7. In which case, Swagger would be 60% accurate w/ MT Sealstone.
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Are Fang and Vanille still the same price given the recent rule changes?~
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Speaking of Fang and Vanille, you could always add them in a team to counteract the MT Status Accuracy reduction with the Status Accuracy increase they give from Saboteur. They have some neat synergy with picks who have some iffy status hit rates.
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Wait, Fang and Vanille's Role Bonuses still apply to the entire team for dungeon?~
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I don't think Fang changes a whole lot with a forced "scale to join time" interp. Fake early Fang probably still does most everything join-time Fang does, so no need to adjust the cost there.
Wait, Fang and Vanille's Role Bonuses still apply to the entire team for dungeon?~
Sure, don't see why they wouldn't. All FF13 characters get to buff their team... a little. I certainly baked this into my all-FF13 team calculations. Just as a warning, stuff like Commando damage in the damage average already bakes in the bonus, so they don't exactly help themselves.
That said I wouldn't really get on the hype train too much since it'll only work when they're both Saboteurs, and the effect is fairly minor, and early in the Dungeon it's even more minor. Checking Wikia, a Role Level 1-2 Saboteur boosts team status hit rates by a mighty 4%, and a RL3-4 Sab grants an 8% boost. RL5 (Floor 8+ only!) grants a +12% status hit rate boost. A 100% default status that becomes a 66% MT status will become a 74% MT status on Floors 4-7 (or 80% if BOTH Fang & Vanille Sabs are out). That's useful, but not game-breaking.
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So here are a few things I'm considering:
MT Sealstone changed to the following: All Single Target abilities are now MT, but only have a 67% chance to inflict their abilities on the targets. For example, Yuna has a 67% chance to hit all targets with Protect. This Sealstone has no effect on any move that gives immunity to any type of damage.
I'm not 100% sold on this change, but I think it might be for the best. Things obviously get even more dicey with abilities that aren't 100%.
Point modifications:
Tir to 3.0
Aika to 3.0
Cloud to 3.0, but remove Cover Materia from his list.
Chaz to 2.5
Fang to 2.5
Nelis to 2.0
Ness to 2.0
Princess Toadstool to 2.0
Ryu1 to 2.0
Scias to 2.0
Tidus to 2.0
Claude to 1.5
Ursula to 1.5
Marcus changed to Titania, I think she's still good at 1.5
FF1 Knight to 1.0
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If you want to make MT Sealstone a bit worse, there are better ways. This is just too much random chance now.
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The problem I have is it doesn't work with 67% effect (as was asked of me, 'what is 67% asleep') so I'm really at a loss as to how to balance it. I'm open to any suggestions.
EDIT:
Let's try it like this:
All moves become MT.
The damage or healing of moves is reduced by 50%.
The status hit rate of moves is reduced by 50%, but the effect is the same.
Buffs are at 50% effectiveness (Vanish is 50% p. evade, reflect reduces magic damage by half and reflects half of it back? Not sure on this one)
Debuffs are 50% as effective but have the same hit rate.
Does that cover everything?
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Neph, the second proposal is just the old MT sealstone (or current one but with -33% changed to -50%).
As for the first proposal, see Dhyer, that's still just as much of a headache! Anyway.... to be clear, my original proposal in chat was actually the *reverse* of Neph's proposal above: get rid of all of the all-or-nothing "X% chance of this effect happening" because it creates massive scenario splitting and random chance, not make *everything* it. So something like Instant Death, Sleep, Petrify, Vanish, Reflect, etc. becomes single-target and works as usual. Damage, healing, and effects that obviously scale like buffs & debuffs get the percentage treatment. The only problem with this is when people disagree about whether something is "scalable" or not. I'm firmly of the position that something like Reflect is very clearly a special effect and makes no sense to "scale", so it'd stay ST. (Or, if we want to keep the current proposal, go ahead and make it 50-67% chance, but understand that match analysis will inherently become vaguer with "well if Yuna's Reflect doesn't get really unlucky, the team wins.")
Anyway, I'm mostly okay with the current MT sealstone as is. If you want a mild nerf + less headaches, I'd recommend the above, although that may be less thematic (since some things still end up ST).
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Re point values: FF1 Knight is pretty dang good at 1.0, FWIW. Probably not Dungeon-breaking or anything, but he's very solid (good damage! doesn't die! ID resistance!) and makes characters like Robo & Monk feel silly. Robo can actually probably go to 0.5, sure, he eventually the Ribbon for something approaching non-terrible Speed & MDef, and Vigil Hat + Crisis Arm for status-immune hax, but he's such a late bloomer. Even if he might be a passable 1.0 on Floor 6, he's just so bad dungeon-wise for floors 1-5 that he can use an even further price drop.
If you're dropping Ness to 2.0, DQ8 Guv can probably go as well. They're pretty similar (MT damage, MT healing, a tad slow) except that Ness is way tankier.
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So, to be clear, your version is reduced effect on things, not hit rate, but doesn't include any kind of "all or nothing" status?
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I believe the the old MT sealstone didn't exempt naturally MT moves (Apropos of little. As long as the sealstone still exists and doesn't get more complicated. I'd prefer halving of effects rather then just having them ignore the seal stone myself. Reflect would just halve damage and reflect half back).
Aika to 3.0- Hmm, one person used her well. Since I've forgotten if Delta Shield also cancels out magic on your end (gut reaction was enemy only stuff though) and that would make a pretty large difference, abstain for now.
Cloud to 3.0, but remove Cover Materia from his list.- No real opinion besides this makes him blander and it's not like there are lots of Cover choices running around anyways?
Chaz to 2.5- Well, looking at it, Rune is at 2.5, and they both gain revival around similar type, and running around with ST and MT. Chaz is faster, Rune is more consistent ont MT. This probably works. Didn't remember how limited both of their ID must be in game. That's a lucky DL translation.
Fang to 2.5- Well, her worth depends a lot on whether people let her cut off her turns early to get a big speed boost
Nelis to 2.0- She starts at least below L35, but should have an L4 at least. But...a single L4 with nothing really else isn't so impressive. Certainly she's on a level below Sasarai, so don't have much issue with this.
Ness to 2.0- When I used him (and he may have been a 3 then? Can't remember) he was fine enough. He does get MT Protect at L18, MT Healing at 24 and some MT status. I...wouldn't care too much, because speed isn't great and that durability spike is right at the end. And damage at the end is expensive.
Princess Toadstool to 2.0- The logical counter to me saying that people use Tidus at 2.5, she certainly badly, badly needs to go down to at least 2.0!
Ryu1 to 2.0- Don't he needs this too badly, since as pointed out, Boomerangs are good damage most of the game? I think?
Scias to 2.0. Since I'm running a Scias-Ursula team after this one, I strongly approve (Not actually sure this is necessary though. Speed, healing, status, damage)
Tidus to 2.0- Seems like people have generally been getting use of him at 2.5 without having too many issues? Or maybe they have though. I guess things to lag a bit.
Claude to 1.5. I guess if Monk is a 1, this seems okay.
Ursula to 1.5. See Scias.
Marcus changed to Titania, I think she's still good at 1.5- Don't remember really what this means. Better late and early? Better late, worse early?
FF1 Knight to 1.0- Depends on spells or not. Blink is great, and he can use it to protect a reviver during critical fights. Even without Blink though, 1.5 seems okay.
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If Toadstool is dropping then Zalmo could probably use a drop too. She probably ends up a better endgame pick do to status and her ability to contribute MT damage in a pinch and the .5 difference if he drops to a 2.5 makes up for some of her early woes.
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Ness to 2.0- When I used him (and he may have been a 3 then? Can't remember) he was fine enough. He does get MT Protect at L18, MT Healing at 24 and some MT status. I...wouldn't care too much, because speed isn't great and that durability spike is right at the end. And damage at the end is expensive.
Ness never gets MT Protect (that was Poo - Ness picks up Alpha and Beta, which is ST Cut physicals by 50% and ST Cut physicals by 50% and reflect 50% of THAT damage to the attacker) and Life-Up Omega (the only MT healing spell) is actually L70.
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Aika to 3.0- Hmm, one person used her well. Since I've forgotten if Delta Shield also cancels out magic on your end (gut reaction was enemy only stuff though) and that would make a pretty large difference, abstain for now.
Delta Shield blocks all magic, whether cast by an enemy or an ally, and whether it's harmful or restorative. Sacri/Increm spells get blocked, for example. Nonetheless, I don't have any objection to her moving to 3.0, since she gets Delta Shield very early, and it has Initiative, both of which are important in the Dungeon. Though she admittedly doesn't bring that much else.
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Titania-talk: I think Titania is better early and better late, actually. She's Maybe a little less good early on, but not by a whole lot.
Ryu1-talk: There seemed to be a lot of complaints about him being too high. I'm fine leaving him where he is.
Scias/Ursula-talk: I don't think anyone's used either of them in like three years. Has anyone -ever- used Ursula? I don't even remember if her status is any good.
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I could be wrong about Ryu 1, but I thought NEB might have posted something about Boomerang damage numbers
I used all the BoF 4 team! And it was really wanted to use the good 3 and thinking that I might as well go for them all. And am planning to reuse part of the team after this one and see what they can go with when supported by another 2 PCs who just aren't trash. I guess Scias gets a ding thanks that damn revival not being a 100% chance. Scias definitely crushed Ryu 4 so bad at least until my team fell, and he got moved down to 2.
If Delta Shield blocks defensive magic, then it's just this one good setup that is specifically built on 2 item healers and 1 item buffer. Not sure making her a 3 because it you put several (limited) people with the same quirk together is great balance (the further needs to be quirked with MT Shadow). Otherwise she doesn't have a lot going on.
Okay, yeah, misread the levels on RPGclassics on EB. And yes, it appears to be wrong and says that Ness has MT Protect. So...retract what I said, middling ish damage, buffs aren't great, no revival. 2 may be kind, becuase that spike is not until near the end.
I wouldn't look at lowering Zalmo just because Toadstool has a horrible, horrible start. Not to say whether Zalmo deserves a downgrade or not, but Toadstool's start is sooooo bad. I mean...Zalmo may be worth more to people based on the fact he has revival at least 3 floors before Toadstool (or that it's full! I doubt her's is. And that his MP is limitless).
GARNET AND EIKO NEED TO SWITCH AT THE VERY LEAST. I don't know how I overlooked them, because their dungeon worth is so split as to be comical.
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Oh, I didn't realize the Delta Shield thing. Yeah, she's fine at 2.5 then unless you build some crazy item-user group (RIKKU?).
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Okay, yeah, misread the levels on RPGclassics on EB. And yes, it appears to be wrong and says that Ness has MT Protect. So...retract what I said, middling ish damage, buffs aren't great, no revival. 2 may be kind, becuase that spike is not until near the end.
http://files.fobby.net/0000/06d1/eb_ranger-psi_guide.txt
I know I'm just nitpicking here at this point, but Ness DOES get Revival in Healing Gamma... At L53. And it's barely revival at all - MAYBE double digit HP on coming back if the target's lucky.
I wouldn't look at lowering Zalmo just because Toadstool has a horrible, horrible start. Not to say whether Zalmo deserves a downgrade or not, but Toadstool's start is sooooo bad. I mean...Zalmo may be worth more to people based on the fact he has revival at least 3 floors before Toadstool (or that it's full! I doubt her's is. And that his MP is limitless).
Doesn't Zalmo also have the Immortal Flag (or close to it), making him immune to most/all status effects? Still, Toadstool has some decent bargain basement healing that also fully cures status effects, and a physical that doesn't suck on top of being decently fast. Her revival, when she DOES get it, is half if not timed, but since most people allow Timed Hits, it is full.
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FF1 Knight to 1.0- Depends on spells or not. Blink is great, and he can use it to protect a reviver during critical fights. Even without Blink though, 1.5 seems okay.
I forget my retranslated spell names, but Ruse (+40% evade) is self only, the protecting is done with Invis, which is only +20% and not really a great spell unless significant stall is going on.
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Dhyer: What's the logic on hyping Dungeon Eiko > Dungeon Garnet? Garnet is a tad fast, Eiko is average speed; Garnet is slightly tankier; Garnet's big damage is all MT and hits every element you can want, while Eiko is stuck with Holy & weaker Earth. Both are solid MT healers. Okay, I do recall Carbuncle getting hyped the last time that Eiko was in (due to the weird way you can apparently change the effect to not be Reflect), so that's something, but it's still going off at average speed at best. And I guess there's Eiko's 25% chance of free Phoenix on party wipe to randomly tiebreak for teams with her as well, along with Phoenix itself of course.
I dunno. If I'm running a team that wants to have both blitzing & healing options, Garnet seems clearly the superior option. Eiko might be better for stally teams, but even so she risks being dead before she can summon Carbuncle.
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Dhyer: What's the logic on hyping Dungeon Eiko > Dungeon Garnet? Garnet is a tad fast, Eiko is average speed; Garnet is slightly tankier; Garnet's big damage is all MT and hits every element you can want, while Eiko is stuck with Holy & weaker Earth. Both are solid MT healers. Okay, I do recall Carbuncle getting hyped the last time that Eiko was in (due to the weird way you can apparently change the effect to not be Reflect), so that's something, but it's still going off at average speed at best. And I guess there's Eiko's 25% chance of free Phoenix on party wipe to randomly tiebreak for teams with her as well, along with Phoenix itself of course.
I dunno. If I'm running a team that wants to have both blitzing & healing options, Garnet seems clearly the superior option. Eiko might be better for stally teams, but even so she risks being dead before she can summon Carbuncle.
To clarify how Carbuncle works, it has both a short and a long animation, just like Garnet's summons. The short ones only apply the status associated with the particular stone, whereas the long ones all add Protect as well. Here's what they look like.
Ruby = Reflect (+ Protect)
Diamond = Vanish (+ Protect)
Emerald = Haste (+ Protect)
Moonstone = Shell (+ Protect)
The Diamond, Emerald, and Moonstone can all be found prior to Eiko joining, so she can arguably use any variation of Carbuncle as soon as it's available.
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Eiko's revival is also MT through Phoenix. MT revival is cool.
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I wouldn't look at lowering Zalmo just because Toadstool has a horrible, horrible start. Not to say whether Zalmo deserves a downgrade or not, but Toadstool's start is sooooo bad. I mean...Zalmo may be worth more to people based on the fact he has revival at least 3 floors before Toadstool (or that it's full! I doubt her's is. And that his MP is limitless).
Her start isn't good but even then the only advantages Zalmo has over her are durability and revival along with some status immunities. She's still faster and her healing is true MT instead of group target (and it heals status too!). As you mentioned she picks up her cheap (and full) revival around floor four or so and also picks up some very nice status skills and eventually gets some limited MT damage. Zalmo's probably the better pick for the first half of the dungeon, but I'd say Toadstool's speed and status make her the better pick in the second half. I was wary of there even being a .5 difference between them. A full point is just too much.
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So, since some additional FEA characters were being discussed.... to sidetrack for a bit, I think some of the FE characters might be a tad overcosted at the moment. This is because "ST damage" with no healing or tricks (read: Not Elincia / Moulder) is a niche most teams typically only need 1 of, perhaps 2 at most. It doesn't matter how dodgy or countery they are (short of Firefly), the enemies will likely ignore them until the revivers are down, and it's fairly unlikely these characters can solo (short of an early Athos type situation) if it isn't the final fight.
So, just to note again... knocking Knight to 1.0 is actually potentially okay, but if so, it's because "ST damage" is a niche that a team shouldn't normally need very much of. Knight is way more unkillable than Lyn or Ephraim, but also gets healing + random RUSE / INVS tricks that might help in stally matches, gets some status blocking & elemental hosing, and also consistently beats down without fear of getting doubled by random speedster bosses. Elf's topic has Knight at .58 PCHP damage; Lyn might be grabbing ~.80 PCHP when she doubles, but she's also much more killable or statusable, especially by ITE. And she'd cost double Knight if Knight is at 1.0 while she's at 2.0. Eph has crazy weakness hitting + OHKO when he doubles, but it's more frequent that he runs into opponents he doesn't double. SO2 Claude, if he gets dinged to 1.5, is a similar case but with even more consistent ST damage and some status blocking.
Basically, I'm suggesting that if Knight & Claude get the discount, give it to the other non-healy characters, too. So Eph->2.0, Lyn->1.5, Marcus/Titania->1.0. Marisa seems a little dangerous to knock to 0.5, though, that's a lot of damage for nearly nothin'. Same with FF1 Monk.
Moving back to FEA... Robin/ the Avatar seems the most obvious inclusion, although it's a slightly dicey pricing proposition - feels like Robin makes a few characters feel silly at 1.0 (lol Marisa / Lute), but is not a very inspiring pick at 1.5. Pick a gender & an asset / flaw (protip: take SPD, it's even more important in the Dungeon than the DL) and go nuts. Notably, since one of the things that makes Robin & Morgan unique is their perfect class access, go nuts with that, too. I'd also assume for Dungeon purposes that Robin supports their entire team, as in-game, and that Robin can be presumed to be standing next to one character of the player's choice (which means they also both get zapped by area-of-effect, of course) for support bonuses for both of 'em (+10 Hit, +10 Avo, +10 Crit, +10 Crit dodge at A-rank).
F1: Tactician, Veteran
F2: Solidarity (+10 Crit / Crit dodge for adjacent allies in addition to the above)
F3: Master Seal to Grandmaster OR Second Seal & L1 off-class ability
F4: L5 ability (Ignis if stayed Grandmaster), L10 + L5 if Second Seal'd above.
F5:
F6: L15 ability
F7: Second Seal if desired + L1/L10/L5 ability of switched class. (also Brave Weapons / Waste legal)
F8+: Just pick any 5 non-DLC skills you want & a class to be in.
Also, an obvious potential postgame bonus would be MORGAN if there's anyone marrigable in your party, though chat with Neph on costing for his or her setup. Could be fun since Morgan could "inherit" totally wacky skills like Red Zone or Night Sword. A very reasonable and weak other bonus for F8 (arguably it should happen without any need for a specific aftergame bonus at all) would be to allow the non-storebought but still moderately plentiful equipment like Celica's Gale, Fortify staves, Levin Swords, etc.
Sample: F-Robin, +SPD / -LCK, Second Seal to Peg Knight on F3 and get Speed +2, Master Seal to Dark Flier on F4 (Relief + uh RALLY MOVEMENT), collect Galeforce on F6, SS to whatever on F7 (Dark mage + Sorc for Hex/Anathema/Vengeance?).
Off the top of my head, Dark Flier, Sage, & Sorcerer seem the money options. DF eventually grabs Galeforce, is fast, and hits both defenses. Sage is if you want to have some kind of Lute variant, Tomefaire + healing. Sorcerer is actually a weirdly team-player type, because he or she goes and stands next to the dodgy dudes to stack -25 Avoid on 'em, is hard to kill if Nosferatu is equipped, and can bust heads with Ruin (and on F7+, Waste).
Thoughts on the above as a 1.5?
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Tir to 3.0
Ted to 2.5
Sharanda to 2.5
Chaz to 2.5
Eiko to 2.5
Fang to 2.5
Hugo to 2.5
Billy to 2.0
Guv to 2.0
Nelis to 2.0
Ness to 1.5
Zalmo to 2.5
Ephraim to 2.0
Garnet to 2.0
Princess Toadstool to 2.0
Nina1 to 2.0
Red13 to 2.0
Scias to 2.0
Tidus to 2.0
Cecil to 1.5
Claude to 1.5
Crono to 1.5]
Lyn to 1.5
Popoi to 1.5
Ursula to 1.5
Marcus changed to Titania, moved to 1.0
Ayla to 1.0
FF1 Knight to 1.0
Monk to .5
Robo to .5
I like the idea of Robin, but obviously don't know much about FEA.
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Sharanda to 2.5
Sharanda was already at 2.5. Unless you meant 3.0?
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Sharanda to 2.5
Sharanda was already at 2.5. Unless you meant 3.0?
That is exactly what I meant.
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Also, rejoice, Riou is back. ????
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Well, that makes -me- happy!
Does he have any initiative moves?
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I don't know about initiative, but he has a lot of moves that give him bonus speed.
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I was thinking about various team builds and can anyone recommend a character with good, accurate damage over time or other poison like effects. Gastly was the first who came to mind, but I'm sure there are others.
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Something like an MK timed card gimmick then? Mmm. Roxis is the one that pops to mind, no idea if he's in the dungeon.
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There's also Raquel's Poison Bite skill, though that's a bit questionable depending on whether or not people allow the afflicted to move out of the target hex.
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Something like an MK timed card gimmick then? Mmm. Roxis is the one that pops to mind, no idea if he's in the dungeon.
There are no MK characters in dungeon (for all that I love the old bandied about idea of two MK PCs that can switch off).
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Hmmmm, I looked over the list and I don't really see to many characters with good DOT effects. Sounds like a good chance to add in someone like Melia or Riki from Xenoblade so my DQ4 Solo+DOT character can break the dungeon!!!!
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Just an idea I'm toying with now, but...
Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WAo)(3.5)
Whimsicott (2.5)
Hilda (2.5)
Hellion (1.5) (Multitarget)
Raja (1.0)
Whimsicott is there mainly for Prankster, giving the team initiative on their non-damage turns... And what initiative it is! Hellion will have MT'd Copper Flesh, Raja and Hilda can provide other buff support, and Cecilia has her own buffs and spoiling. The main downside is that it kills stuff s o v e r y s l o w l y. At least, until the later floors. Even then, it's never that good on damage, but others will have a pain of a time trying to kill them.
...This won't work. Nevermind.
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That Whimsicott effect also works on teammates?
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Took me forever to find information regarding it, but I'm guessing no. According to Serebii (specifically here: http://www.serebii.net/games/speedpriority.shtml )
In Pokémon Black & White, a new ability, Prankster, is introduced. This ability increases the Speed Priority of all non-attacking moves by 1 stage for the Pokémon with the ability. This means that all standard moves, normally within the Stage 0 band, will act as if they were in the Stage 1 band and so forth.
Guess I should've done more research before throwing the idea out there. I was previously assuming that it was a field effect, but now I'm pretty sure it's not.
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I think I actually put Whimsicott in thinking that it did, too. I might lower its cost... and maybe make a specific ability list for it.
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A specific ability list is definitely necessary given how the first usage turned out.
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I think I actually put Whimsicott in thinking that it did, too. I might lower its cost... and maybe make a specific ability list for it.
Yeah, Meeple added in the durabilities for the gen 5 pokemon and Whimsicott get's OHKOed by an average strength fire or ice spell. It could probably use a point drop.
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Dropped it to 1.5.
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I have officially gone through all the submitted teams. If you'd like to make a new one, please post it.
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Oh hell, I really want to do this, always really wanted to do something like this -
Songstress (3.0), Peppita (1.5), Meru (0.5, w/th dragoon spirit to start), Bartz (4.0 - he counts because - http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/archive/3/37/20110706085756!Bartz_Dancer_012.png , White Mage to start?), Lucia (1.0, Life?) + Nall (1.0, doesn't take up a party member slot)
No idea if this even gets past floor one of the current dungeon layout before crashing and burning horribly, but yaay dancers~
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Is this Bartz forced into Dancer for the entire Dungeon?????
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Not if he still costs 4.0, I would hope. <_< (I assume CT plans to take Dancer as one of his classes when that's possible, though.)
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I kind of sort of forgot how Bartz works~ I thought about having him White Mage master for F1, but then that might mean I have no offense, so I was thinking of having him as Knight or something instead, and yeah I thought about maybe forcing him as Dancer for the floor that becomes available, if the team gets there, probably not~
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Elincia (2.5)
Rune (2.5)
Crowley (2)
Nelis (2)
Zemekis/Hydra (2)
SSL Sealstone
Ready for this to blow up horribly.
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I had the same idea as Random, a team of all 2.0s, except there's still a point left over & all... anyway, Team Tidus + 4 Revivers:
Tidus (2)
Angelo (2)
Garnet (2)
Red XIII (2)
Purim (3)
Status Symbol Law
SSL is better than usual these days due to nasties like Sanctuary Keeper lurking out there who'll just Photon Wings you out. Anyway sit behind Haste & not die to status and just out-heal / revive attacks. And yeah I just did an SSL team, but that was more a DQ8 team that happened to need SSL, while this is an actual team sorta built around SSL (and a "pick all the 2.0 chars" theme).
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I have some Qs~
1) Does Lucia still start with Gale, Rage and Shield spells as well as her default oils?
2) Would a White Mage Bartz have enough MP for Holy spam on F1? Also would have revival yes?
I will be in chat to discuss the dancer/a dancer team sometime later as well~
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1) Gale, Rage and shield are starting Crests, so she gets them from the get-go. For oils, she starts with two, IIRC? I don't remember which, but they weren't very good anyway.
2) White Mage Bartz doesn't get Holy until like floor 6. It's a lategame spell. I'm not sure how early Raise is, but it's probably floor 3 range.
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Thanks Snow :)
I thought Bartz got to start each floor with a mastered job or am I not getting that right?
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Thanks Snow :)
I thought Bartz got to start each floor with a mastered job or am I not getting that right?
http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dungeon_Stuff#Bartz
According to this, he does master 1 job per floor, and based on what I've seen from prior teams with Bartz, Ramza, and Cloud type characters, I would definitely grant Holy. Holy costs 20 MP (which is actually less than Raise at 29 MP), so I'd say Bartz could use it a couple of times in the first floor.
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Sure, Bartz magically gets infinite JP to master White Magic, but you can't buy Holy in earlygame FF5. The JP requirement is skipped, the "actually have access to it" requirement isn't.
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Sure, Bartz magically gets infinite JP to master White Magic, but you can't buy Holy in earlygame FF5. The JP requirement is skipped, the "actually have access to it" requirement isn't.
By that logic, you can't actually have access to a lot of spells, since magic only becomes available as you progress to new towns, and that's definitely not how I remember Bartz in the dungeon.
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That's correct, mage classes would only have the spells available to them at the time. In the same way Samurai on F3 is not going to have the Masamune, that's F6 as well, and Red Mage's damage will be excellent off X-Magicing spells that don't suck yet (relatively).
You might be thinking of Saga Frontier Blue? I know there was some weirdness with him getting endgame level stuff on F1/F2, but Saga.jpg.
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That's correct, mage classes would only have the spells available to them at the time. In the same way Samurai on F3 is not going to have the Masamune, that's F6 as well, and Red Mage's damage will be excellent off X-Magicing spells that don't suck yet (relatively).
You might be thinking of Saga Frontier Blue? I know there was some weirdness with him getting endgame level stuff on F1/F2, but Saga.jpg.
Maybe you're right. I thought I remembered a floor where someone went Time Mage w/ Bartz, and pretty much got all Time Mage spells, with the only limitations for higher-level spells being MP, and that was also the point where Reset got subsequently banned. That might have just been solely my interpretation, though.
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Or it could be that people weren't paying as much attention. Unless you remember games really well, it's often very easy to go an assumed auto pilot.
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Right. Bartz gets the job Mastered, but he can only use spells/equips that would normally be gained at that point in FF5.
So No Hastega till the point in FF5 where you get to the Ancient Forest in world 2 (floor 4-5), say. Or no Odin till you are well into World 3 (floor 6-7).
I'm not sure the Masamune is actually allowed to Samurai Bartz in the dungeon (though I lean 'yes'?). That is a point that should probably be clarified (ditto Excalibur, Magus Rod, Rune Bell, whatever)
I used Bartz last, but I didn't get to hyping Quick till F6.
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I had the same idea as Random, a team of all 2.0s, except there's still a point left over & all... anyway, Team Tidus + 4 Revivers:
Tidus (2)
Angelo (2)
Garnet (2)
Red XIII (2)
Purim (3)
Status Symbol Law
SSL is better than usual these days due to nasties like Sanctuary Keeper lurking out there who'll just Photon Wings you out. Anyway sit behind Haste & not die to status and just out-heal / revive attacks. And yeah I just did an SSL team, but that was more a DQ8 team that happened to need SSL, while this is an actual team sorta built around SSL (and a "pick all the 2.0 chars" theme).
I think you might want to put at least one character with options for the early game because that team has almost nothing for the first couple floors.
Anyway, figure this could be fun for a new team:
Deis 2 (4.0)
Chaz(2.5)
Peppita (1.5)
Whimsicott (1.5)
Yukiko (1.5)
Life Sealstone
Figure Deis and Yukiko should help the team get started, and once they reach floor 3 or so they really start to take off. Eventually they can get a quick MT OHKO of both flavors from Attack Up+Helping Hand+Airslash for physical or Tailwind+Deis Spell+Zan+Maragi on the magic side. Healing Dance fairly unique in that it's a lot of bursts of healing over time which I think should synergize nicely with Life Sealstone and Peppita has a lot of other neat stuff that she can do as well. I'm probably not familiar with all of it, but I'm sure CT can provide some in depth discussions on what she can bring in the fights.
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Well I'll have to do some thinking on how she compliments your team since looks like you all ready have attack buffing and things (Peppita's is MT though) but I am glad someone else is using her again :)
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Well I'll have to do some thinking on how she compliments your team since looks like you all ready have attack buffing and things (Peppita's is MT though) but I am glad someone else is using her again :)
Well I can always stack the buffs! The idea of someone like Yukiko dealing OHKO level physical damage is very appealing.
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Right. For all that I kind of laugh at the hit rates of most BoF 2 status in game, Songstress should make those work.
About when would floor 1 end in terms of FF 5 bosses?
I know that SO 3 endgame is about L60, but I seem to remember an EXP spike midgame, so Peppita is probably up to L8?
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Well stat topic/OK takes the characters as L65 for final boss. It's weird though because depends on how much you factor in Triple EXP bonus/SO3's bonus bar thing, but yeah that sounds about right.
She learns Magic Hook (HP/MP damage, chaos/confuse) at L5, her Charge also does MP damage, can't remember off hand which is better. She doesn't get the freeze skill till L10 iirc.
@ dude Yeah :) Dancing fans of doom~
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I'd generally agree with NEB and say Floor 1 would be Liquid Flame, or maybe a little before.
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Alright, time for a new team, why not. I've done gimmicky teams the last couple of times, I figure I'd just try a straight up overkill-damage one this time.
Zerase (4.5) w/ Body Charge
Crowley (2.0)
Garnet (2.0)
Red XIII (2.0)
Robo (0.5)
Ph34r teh MT.
EDIT: I hope you guys aren't getting tired of seeing Red XIII in the dungeon, by the way, but he really is an ideal pick for so many teams, I find.
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Zerase with Body Charge is quite powerful/fast but she kind of wants MP restoration to go with her, since the L4 charge can only be blown once the first few floors and twice the latter part (with maybe 3 at F7?)
So how is this for a team idea?
Souji (Firefly), Aika, Amarant, Yukiko, Seifer: I wanted to go for a defensive build without being overly gimmicky. Seifer also provides some MT limit nonsense with cover from Delta Shield + Firefly Souji. Seemed like a good fit. The team's raw offense isn't that powerful but I think this would work well enough? Thoughts?
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Zerase with Body Charge is quite powerful/fast but she kind of wants MP restoration to go with her, since the L4 charge can only be blown once the first few floors and twice the latter part (with maybe 3 at F7?)
So how is this for a team idea?
Souji (Firefly), Aika, Amarant, Yukiko, Seifer: I wanted to go for a defensive build without being overly gimmicky. Seifer also provides some MT limit nonsense with cover from Delta Shield + Firefly Souji. Seemed like a good fit. The team's raw offense isn't that powerful but I think this would work well enough? Thoughts?
Oh, hrm. I just realized that only Zerase's L4 charge is actually MT. In that case, my team doesn't have quite as much MT as I thought it did. I think I'll rework my team a bit.
As for your team, is there any specific reason for Amarant? When I think of reasons for Amarant, it's mostly his MP healing and his strong early damage. It's worth noting that he cannot learn Revive in any way until Disc 3.
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Why not Body Charge Magus?
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New team:
Miakis (4.0)
Crowley (2.0)
Garnet (2.0)
Zalmo (2.5) w/ Neo Speed
FF1 Monk (0.5)
Replaced Zerase with Miakis, who I can optimize for strong MT damage. Also decided to ditch Red for ZALMO. Less damage, but much more healing. And with Neo Speed? Oh man, MUCH MORE HEALING. I think I'll confirm this as my team. =)
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For the record, Neph, please put my team on hold for a bit while I think on it. I mostly disagree with dude - the early floors are usually easier, and stalling them out with healing is a more winning strategy than the later floors, but after all the analysis of F1, holy crap does my team have issues on F1. Garnet & Purim are notably much, much worse on F1 than on F2/F3, with Purim really wanting a judgement call to give her Undine for the final fight despite it being borderline at best. Otherwise my team might BARELY edge out Augus before his 2nd turn - SSL & the fact that Augus is tankier vs. magic not really helping here - only to die to getting swept by Joker's MT damage. Ow.
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Proposed guide thingy for Meru -
F2 - Rainbow Breath
F3 - Hammer Spin, Diamond Dust
F4 - Cool Boogie
F5 - Cat's Cradle, Blue Sea Dragon
F7 - Perky Step
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It sounded like Meru wasn't really supposed to gain new techs/spells until at least when she would join (hence Neph explicitly noting that Rainbow Breath would not be available for several floors).
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In general I pretty strongly disagree with "patching" characters in the dungeon so that they gain abilities before they do in-game. In Meru's case I'm okay with squinting and saying she starts with her dragoon and/or Freezing Ring (which at least reflects her in-game ability to do high damage with items, without actually allowing said items) but her getting MT healing before ~F4 is a blatant contradiction to how she is in-game (unless you want to say dungeon Meru has items of course... I'm certainly more relatively okay with that). I wouldn't see Shana getting her MT healing spell on F2, and Shana unquestionably gets hers before Meru does in-game.
(blah blah blah I don't actually vote so feel free to ignore this, but hey)
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Vote and make a team, NEB. GIVE IN!
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I've voted on dungeon matches before; they tended to take me like an hour each so I had to stop. <_< I love the concept though!
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Put a timer on it and it will be like playing speed. chess. And making teams is lots of fun!
No one has rolled a Violent Burst Law team in a while...
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You can at least make a team though!
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And for fun, analysis of my team members from the last run
Cecilia (3.5)- Certainly the MVP. For all that it constantly felt like the spell or item that would help her trivialize a floor was generally gotten the next floor, she was great. Early revival, healing, defensive buffs, at some point can mystic Lock State. Lots of cool stuff. That said, it is absolutely necessary that she have a speed boosting sealstone. While that alone makes me ponder whether the 3.5 is deserved, she works quite well.
Alys (3)- Solid. MT buffs, some MT damage paired with speed? Yes! Add in the dungeon might of Moonshade!!! (not really joking though) and she ends up definitely being worth it.
Terra (2.5)- Good, but I think that she would shine better on a non-Cecilia team. I thought there might be a floor or 2 where she would get the speed sealstone, but it ended up that there was never a really good reason to take it off Cecilia. Doesn't pick up the support spells at that great a clip, but still brings the durable smash with solid MT back up. I would say for the point cost, she was probably the least impressive member of my team (not to say she's overpriced though).
Jean (1)- Was always kind of nebulous in what she could really do, but certainly worth the point. For all that her status AoE and damage is pretty unmapped, as is the general LEBC evolution in terms of damage curves, she is still cheap, fast and does passable damage and a chance of status at least.
Ronfar (1)- Solid healer for a 1. Not too slow, gains his options at a decent rate (albeit not so amazing to not be a 1). Worked well enough.
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Well if Meru had items she wouldn't be a 0.5~
Due to how broke LoD items are, and they don't have the same restrictions/limitations in the dungeon, since 32~ is usually more than enough.
F3 sounds about right to me for L3 spells in general assuming LoD is the same for proportioning things the way is as done for games in general, but Sharanda would still only be able to use it twice (30 MP x 2, 60 MP cap), and she'd still have to attack to get SP for using it from that first fight on the floor. Or she could use her ST healing spell six times (10 x 6, 60 MP cap) Well at least both of them revive and are about full healing. On the other hand Rainbow Breath is a L2 but Meru is still only able to use it twice when she gets it (20 MP per cast, 40 MP cap) and still also has to attack in that first fight for the SPs. I have mostly been using the Sharanda rules/Piggyman's list as a guideline as to where in the dungeon LoD places are supposed to be.
Floor 1 - Healing Potion (ST, 50% healing), Angel's Prayer (ST, 50% revival), Body Purifier (ST, heals physical status), Mind Purifier (ST, heals mental status), Burnout (ST Fire item), Spark Net (ST Thunder item), Spear Frost (ST Water item), Meteor Fall (MT Earth item), Dancing Ray (MT Light item)
Floor 2 - Sun Rhapsody (ST, full MP healing), Dark Mist (ST Darkness item), Fatal Blizzard (MT Water item), Spinning Gale (ST Wind item), Gushing Magma (MT Fire item), Thunderbolt (MT Thunder item)
Floor 3 - Healing Breeze (MT, 50% healing), Pellet (ST Earth item), Trans Light (ST Light item), Black Rain (MT Darkness item), Rave Twister (MT Wind item)
Floor 4 - Healing Fog (ST, 100% healing), Depetrifier (ST Petrify healing),
Floor 5 - Panic Bell (ST, Confusion), Stunning Hammer (ST, Paralysis), Poison Needle (ST, Poison), Midnight Terror (ST, Fear)
Dancing Rays are not storebought until Volcano Villude and Thunderbolt till Hellena 2 but if Sharanda is not supposed to get/have those things/F2 isn't end of disc one then let me know.
Unless there is indeed supposed to be some sort of blanket restriction on Meru gaining anything fair enough.
Actually looking at that list again and thinking of in terms of additions not spells then yeah Hammer Spin definitely isn't F2 *fixxes* oh I didn't even have Hammer Spin there, thought I did >_> ~
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I, on the other hand, have no particular problem with assuming "time of join" on a character is slightly later than it is in-game, because otherwise some characters are really hard to price fairly, but Dungeon diversity is good, and F1-F3 are much tougher than they used to be. So Chris w/ True Water Rune, Meru w/ Dragoon, Kurando w/ Tsukiyomi, etc. are all fine by me... although I'd probably assume that Meru is frozen at time-of-getting Dragoon for the early floors. A certain amount of "punish characters for slow starts" is fine, seeing characters grow is part of the appeal of the Dungeon, but not when it gets too harsh / swingy. (And Marcus or even Athos will not be enough to guarantee early passes any more.)
That said, I'd be fine with a slight hack if needed (e.g. FF6 Celes, who gets Espers way sooner than she "should," and she needs to), except I don't really think Meru needs the hack? She's a 0.5 pick. If she got solid MT healing on F2, she seriously puts a lot of other 0.5 healers in trouble. Furthermore, for me at least, LoD characters translate well to the Dungeon in that for fights other than Fight 1 / fights after a full reset, they can usually stall and stock up 5 turns of dragoon meter. So Meru is actually a lot tankier than she looks in 4 battles out of 5 because she can Dragoon transform on her speedy first turn 1. So I'd be fine with letting the rest of her skillset come at in-game times rather than sped-up times.
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Ehh ... she can't really do that without having the dragoon levels to do so. They need to have more than DLV1 to remain in dragoon form otherwise they just use the spell or attack then revert. So if Meru is frozen till F4 then she just busts a Freezing Ring then reverts then has to get in the attacks again for enough SP to transform for her final shot of Freezing Ring. Well the MT healing is 50%+status cure, it's not full and she can only use it twice, maybe that is still too good for 0.5 but I don't know. Feels like there are better 0.5s in general, like with better resources 'n stuff~
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The healing will be F4 unless it's artificially sped up. Early Meru...well, is still pretty bad. Adding in a Dragoon Spirit really gives her the ability to use a few shots of magic...every 5 turns. I would say she needs to be sped up, but she's also a 0.5. I guess just giving her the Dragoon Spirit early without Spirit levels is limiting (can't transform for multiple turns, limited MP). So...if she was sped up, I guess speeding up Dragoon levels is okay.
BUT
Don't speed up her additions. So that means that realistically, even on floor 2, she's going to need to attack 5 times to build up a Dragoon level. If she wants to use any for defensive advantage, she'll need to attack 10 times. Floor 3 that might fall to 3 times for a Dragoon level. Floor 4 will finally be when she starts getting SP.
Or alternately, you can do frozen at time of receipt, in which case her SP gains are better, but she can only transform for a turn until floor 4. I guess this one has the advantage of not allowing stalling to build attacks. Either would probably be fine.
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In fairness, it is already a time-honored implicit Dungeon strategy to stall on 1 remaining sucky or non-fatal statused character, and then let characters heal up / build gauges / etc. as long as it isn't too insanely abusive. So even if Meru never attains Dragoon status fast in the first fight, if there's a stalling opportunity, she can grind up 5 turns of Dragoon as long as someone else can legally target the enemy with some healing.
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Yeah, but either way she's not going to be able to spend five turns in Dragoon regardless till the second half of the dungeon. Since dragoon turns are tied to when extra DLVs/new spells are gained/dragoon spirit levels up, well the d spirit level ups since no new spells are gained at DLV4 but characters gain an extra dragoon turn anyway. On the latter floors Meru will have Cool Boogie which is her SP addition which gives 200 SP per use when maxed and then her SP weapon (double SP) so with her Pretty Hammer/Cool Boogie combo she gains 400 SP a turn. In game you can combine that with the War God Sash for 500 SP a turn. I digress, but yeah with the Pretty Hammer/Cool Boogie Meru won't really need to worry about stalling strategies then I don't think.
Unless SnowFire means, which I think, either that or I'm confused, that Meru uses the first fight to collect SP towards gaining new dragoon levels/spells, though either way LoD characters don't earn new spells/levels until after battle has ended.
@ Dhyer
Yeah, my assumption was she wouldn't be getting any new additions or anything early on. Initial addition stuck at L1 for a while? Guess I could live with that.
By time of receipt do you mean she still starts at DLV1 with only the spell she starts with and is locked to this, but also has the additions/addition levels she has when she gains the dragoon spirit in game? Which if you've been using her for everything including all the bosses until then is Double Smack and Hammer Spin. So she starts taking 2/3 turns to get a turn to transform, use Freezing Ring, transform, attack another 2/3 turns after that to do it again, then still has her D Addtion to fall back on after that, but is locked to not gaining anything new until F4.
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Due to peer pressure from super, a crappy team I came up with in about 5 minutes:
Souji(4) + Ginny(3.5)(Life) + Jack(2) + Tear(1) + Meru(.5)
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Ness, Geno, FFT Monk, Emily (MT), Toadstool
Let's see how fast I crash and burn.
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Actually, I'm more curious to see how team uber tanks will do in the current format. I'll change my next team back to Lenneth(3.5) Zalmo (2.5) Citan (2.5) Snow (2.0), Rena (.5) with Status Symbol Sealstone.
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Due to peer pressure from super, a crappy team I came up with in about 5 minutes:
Souji(4) + Ginny(3.5)(Life) + Jack(2) + Tear(1) + Meru(.5)
While more teams are always good, I should again caution against having two super headaches in your team at once.
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So, I'm thinking it may be time to retire the current format of the Dungeon. I've been mulling over ideas and thought I'd share a few with everyone and see if anyone has anything else they'd like to see:
Game-centric Teams with a Twist:
The idea here would be you'd form a party of characters from the same game, with the number of slots available normally +1. So, for example, FF4 could have a party of 6, but it must contain all FF4 characters. The twist would be you'd be able to choose one PC from any other game to go along with those people.
"Class Challenge"
An idea where you pick several people of the same archetype or class. Obviously things would need to be slightly tailored in this situation, or a special clause/sealstone.
It'd probably mean a complete overhaul of the current system in either case, but considering I've run this for about six years, it's probably time for something like that.
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Both sound like really good ideas to me. While they're both a bit limiting, I think they'll make room for a lot more possibilities and give a new and fresh way to approach the dungeon. One of my personal gripes with the dungeon has been that, having participated in it 4 times (I think), I've just been using the same characters over and over. My RPG library is regrettably not as large as some of yours, so I'm a bit more limited in my choice of characters. I'd find myself just picking Eiko/Garnet/Red XIII/Sharanda over and over as my token reviver(s), and I think it did start feeling stale.
If I could just address a couple of things, the way you're thinking of operating Game-Centric Teams could be a little bizarre or imbalanced. Some casts may end up deceptively powerful (as mentioned with FF4, you've got 5 characters, which, regardless of character selection, is 2 extra bodies of HP that enemies need to take out compared to your typical 3-party game; that's a huge advantage.) Also, how would you handle games like Fire Emblem, where party size could be even more problematic? It's a good idea, I just think it could be fine-tuned a little.
As for the Class Challenge, that'd be really interesting. I know someone did a Final Fantasy Classes tournament not so long ago, and that was really fun to watch unfold. The only thing is that, maybe even more so than the Game-Centric Teams idea, you could find yourself in a lot of sticky situations. Several strong characters that would be worth having on a team don't have an obvious class (Is Tidus a Time Mage? What's Wakka? How 'bout characters like Aika, Edgar, Kratos/Zelos or Feena?). It feels like a Class Challenge system favours certain games over others.
Regardless what happens, I'll be the first to say that I'd happily participate in a new format for the dungeon and make some kind of new team. I'll be sure to give input and suggestions as they come to mind, too.
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Although I love dungeon in it's current incarnation, I can see the desire to switch it up after so long. I guess the advantage of gamecentric is easier to interpret, but it's not really balanced (not to mention that people can really do that now)! Just hope to see dungeon continue in some incarnation (especially since it's come off the period where I was the only vote).
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I'll see what I can do to possibly keep the current format but maybe add a Sealstone that allows for the new format too.
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So here's a potential "Class Challenge" idea. I'm open to suggestions on this particular format as well as the bonus.
Aeonless Yuna, Garnet, Eiko, Rosa and ZALMO (Class Challenge Sealstone: Healing does 25% More but the team does 10% less damage)
This happened to hit 11 points (If you assume Rosa is 1.0) but they really don't have to.
EDIT: Feel free to give me other ideas (who may not be currently part of the roster) that would fit in with these particular themes. (Alice from Shadow Hearts comes to mind, for example)
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That's a pretty big overall negative for a sealstone. Dungeon is about ending fights quickly a lot of the time (unless that's also being reworked). But with enough thinking, you can generally make someone fit into at least a general class, so maybe adding someone extra should just be on case by case request?
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That's fine with me. The Sealstone idea itself could be worked into anything, like "Increases damage by 50%, but reduces healing by 50%" or something, too. There's no set-in-stone rule on that.
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I personally like the idea of limiting the number of games in a team. Maybe only allow two games in one team of five, but just rank more PCs from all of the "Ranked" games? With fewer games to look up every week, it'd be easier to vote, but still retain that "team flavor" that I love about the dungeon. Also would definitely require a huge overhaul but that kind of balancing the meta is pretty fun to me.
In a way, you're pricing games instead of individual PCs because now nearly every individual is a forced set of units. Games without status protection are going to be a lot cheaper I'd guess, just as a first thought.
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If I did that, I'd probably make certain people a lot cheaper. I've been doing a lot of thinking on how to revamp things, since I want to more or less completely reboot things once I get things started again, so that's why it's been quiet for so long.
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So, it's been some weeks and months since the last update. A lot of people probably wonder if the Dungeon is finally gone.
I would say that it is dead, at least in its current iteration and format. I plan on massively changing the way things work, people can still make Teams and submit them, but they won't be facing a gauntlet of 10 floors of increasing challenges.
The idea that I have is that it'd basically be a different series of tournaments based on much different criteria than before. I will be posting an example of the idea here soon to give everyone a better idea of what I mean.
I appreciate the time and investment that everyone put into the Dungeon over the last few years and I hope that the new format is something that is at least moderately interesting to folks.