The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => Tournaments => Topic started by: Nephrite on June 29, 2012, 01:34:44 AM
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Gilderoy/nya9ac-1.jpg)
"Ho ho, I suppose someone must fall eventually... Let's see if that repeats itself."
Link to the Dungeon Wiki! (http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php/Full_List_of_Dungeon_Participants)
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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.
Team Jo'ou | Zerase (Resourceless), Alys, White Rose, Billy, FFT Priest
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Jo'ou vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Guido and Gorudo
Team Jo'ou vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team Jo'ou vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Jo'ou vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and Sinspawn Ammes (FFX)
Team Jo'ou vs. Laggy Fantasy Tactics Queklain (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4297.0.html)
Team Yoshiken | Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team Yoshiken vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana
Team Yoshiken vs. Palom, Porom, Edward, Cid and Yang
Team Yoshiken vs. Albel, Adray, Roger Huxley, Noel and Chisato
Team Yoshiken vs. Yumei, Badrach, Aelia, Lorenta and Grey
Team Yoshiken vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf, Olan, Alma and Reis
Team dude | Cecilia, Ramza, Worker 8 (Firefly), Kyra, Ditto
[Ramza: Samurai, Item, Two Hands, Auto Potion]
[Floor 5b: Ribbon Almark]
*Status and buffing/debuffing does not have an effect on this floor. Attacks which inflict status may still be used.
Team dude vs. Ryu1, Nina4 and Ness
Team dude vs. Mitsuo the Hero, Adachi and Shadow Teddie
Team dude vs. Zog and Sara
Team dude vs. Holly and Delphi
Team dude vs. Ghaleon (SSC)
Team Monkey | Rikku, Virginia, KOS-MOS (Body Charge), Nall
[Love Charm, Brave Seal and Fiery Rage]
[Floor 8: Maze of Trials]
*Virginia has been granted Full Libra
*KOS-MOS has been granted Double Buster
Team Monkey vs. Mascot Yuna (FFX-2)
Team Monkey vs. Zeromus, Exdeath and Chaos
Team Monkey vs. Boss Timelord and Belial (No 4D Pocket)
*Full Heal
Team Monkey vs. Luther (When defeated, all buffs and debuffs applied after the start of the fight are removed and CT is reset, and is replaced with Cyril and Indalecio, then again with Xorn, then again with Profound Darkness)
Team Monkey vs. Myria 1 (When defeated, all buffs and debuffs applied after the start of the fight are removed and CT is reset, and is replaced Deathevans and Barubary, then Myria 3, then with Fou-lu)
Resourceless - One character's spells and abilities are now free but you may not use the same ability more than once a fight. This does not apply to moves that drain all resources.
Firefly - The first offensive skill of each enemy will be redirected at the bearer of this sealstone. Multitarget attacks will focus on the bearer only. (E.g. MT Attack would hit 5 times in a 5 person party.))
Multitarget - All attacks are MT, however the damage/healing/status hit rates are halved and at maximum 50%.
Body Charge - Increases the health, damage and effective speed of a character by 1.3x and decreases damage to them to .7x, but increases the cost of the character by 1.5x (rounded to nearest half point, .5s are 1.0s).
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I will not make a specific ruling on whether or not 5b cancels Worker's Innocent status.
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Not that it matters much since W8 has 0 Faith anyways.
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Easy Ones First
Jo'ou passes.
Team Yoshiken | Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team Yoshiken vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana- Ephraim can kill Shana if desired. Team combined can't really off both Hahn and Luna (And no reliable status too). So...say Luna gets off that 80% MT Sleep. This could just go very badly quickly. Healers will be asleep (as will be the sole MT attacker in Eiko). Gadwin and Mareg can knock Eiko out at least.
Team Yoshiken vs. Palom, Porom, Edward, Cid and Yang- Eiko will die again to Edward (The pain). Yang can status out Jessica. Ephraim can kill a twin, but Alicia and Gilder...may get the other twin (They better hope so or the team flat out loses here).
Team Yoshiken vs. Albel, Adray, Roger Huxley, Noel and Chisato- Even if they got through, prepare for MP damage and lots of Confuse status.
Team Yoshiken vs. Yumei, Badrach, Aelia, Lorenta and Grey- They can just kill Eiko
Team Yoshiken vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf, Olan, Alma and Reis- Olan can KO 1 HP Eiko with staff beats. Ephraim will go after Alma so she can't buff someone. Cloud and Beowulf do get to unleash their status, so Alicia and Jessica are statused. Ephraim and Gilder (having faced a Worker and Reis attack) are now facing at least 4 enemies, maybe 5 with no healing. Gilder gets to spend half his turns casting AoD, although they'll just pick him off first. Then it's ST Eph versus tanky and countering Worker, Mevade ignoring Cloud (actually, he may status Ephraim first), Reis (Well...she can damage and avoid counters), and Beowulf (Not great against Ephraim's evade, but give him a few turns and something will stick).
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Not that it matters much since W8 has 0 Faith anyways.
You make a good point.
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My team passes. Cecilia should definitely have her advanced spells for this floor which makes her a very good healer and she gets a neat field effect spell that reduces all offensive magic damage to zero. Anti Magic pretty much shuts down the Zog/Sara and Holly/Delphi fights and really reduces the total offense of the Ghaleon and Persona 4 fights.
For the first fight, Nina4 physical and Ryu's MT physical just miss killing Worker 8. Kyra Medices him if you see that working, if not it's not a huge problem. With or without Worker, they should be able to take out Nina4 and Ness gets revival locked because otherwise Ramza, Ditto Ramza, Kyra and Ceci take out Ness. Ryu1 isn't really threatening the team on his own. For the Persona4 fight, Adachi probably takes out Worker with Vorpal Blade, but the team should be able to bum rush him since Teddie and Mitsuo aren't immediately threatening. The team takes their time and wears down the rest of the opponents while Ceci keeps up Anti Magic and makes sure to keep everyone healed with Ramza restoring her mp when necessary.
Will wait for more arguments for the other teams.
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Dhyer: Shouldn't Alicia have Invoke Feather by now? That means Yoshi's party leaves one person alive then gets everyone in good shape for the next fight, so long as at least one reviver is alive. (Admittedly, if Eiko gets MP busted in the SO3 fight, that is straight-up bad news, so will have to think some more on that one.)
Jo'ou and dude pass. (Samurai Ramza with buffs turned off?! I guess...)
I await arguments as to how Monkey kills Mascot Yuna, since with Defense / Protect / Shell in play she's like 5.5-6.5 effective PCHP IIRC. Double Buster'd BC KOS damage is pretty badass, but I suspect there needs to be some Mix / Gatling hax tossed in too.
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Jo'ou and dude pass. (Samurai Ramza with buffs turned off?! I guess...)
Samurai is mainly so I can get the skillset for later. Cecilia does a pretty good job of shutting this floor down so it seemed a good time to do it.
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Dhyer: Shouldn't Alicia have Invoke Feather by now? That means Yoshi's party leaves one person alive then gets everyone in good shape for the next fight, so long as at least one reviver is alive. (Admittedly, if Eiko gets MP busted in the SO3 fight, that is straight-up bad news, so will have to think some more on that one.)
Jo'ou and dude pass. (Samurai Ramza with buffs turned off?! I guess...)
I await arguments as to how Monkey kills Mascot Yuna, since with Defense / Protect / Shell in play she's like 5.5-6.5 effective PCHP IIRC. Double Buster'd BC KOS damage is pretty badass, but I suspect there needs to be some Mix / Gatling hax tossed in too.
Invoke Feather I believe is L40 and endgame is L50. That's floor 5 at best.
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Is Trainer Y's Moogle Cure is actually 37% with Auto Cure in effect? Or is that after? 37% is still nasty stalling, but doubling and rushing may get past it. Hopefully with some Valiant.
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My team passes. Cecilia should definitely have her advanced spells for this floor which makes her a very good healer and she gets a neat field effect spell that reduces all offensive magic damage to zero. Anti Magic pretty much shuts down the Zog/Sara and Holly/Delphi fights and really reduces the total offense of the Ghaleon and Persona 4 fights.
This wouldn't work on the floor. I guess I need to make it more clear, but no effects of any kind have any effect on the floor at all.
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It's 37% against Auto-Shell, yes. When investigating FFX-2 before, apparently Haste isn't tremendously good, either, so reasonable to hype Rikku's Haste as better than it.
Also I almost forgot but KOS can build up to a Boost before trying to rush down, so that should be 4x attacks in a row in trying to finish the job? That + 100FP Summon/Gatling + buffs should probably do the trick, actually. Given enough time. Of course, Monkey has to deal with Mascot Y spamming Death every single turn on Rikku or KOS which will blow away their buffs, but Virginia will keep going with infinite resources to revive 'em? Hmm. Still potentially interesting but looking brighter for Monkey.
Neph: So field effects like Silent Lake don't work either? Wouldn't think of that as a buff by default. I don't think it changes my vote anyway since Firefly.
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Neph: So field effects like Silent Lake don't work either? Wouldn't think of that as a buff by default. I don't think it changes my vote anyway since Firefly.
Well, it may not be a technical buff, but it is an effect. I'll try and reword it better.
I really don't see how Firefly is going to help against people who have a lot of MT after the first round... but even beyond that, perhaps I am overselling Ryu1's Rudra "always hits weakness" damage or something.
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Just a few initial remarks, not voting yet or anything.
Team Yoshiken vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana- Ephraim can kill Shana if desired. Team combined can't really off both Hahn and Luna (And no reliable status too). So...say Luna gets off that 80% MT Sleep. This could just go very badly quickly. Healers will be asleep (as will be the sole MT attacker in Eiko). Gadwin and Mareg can knock Eiko out at least.
Wouldn't it be better for Ephraim (and Jessica, if needed) to kill off Luna before she actually uses that MT sleep? Shana literally can't do anything productive on her first turn, and needs to actually attack to charge up her Dragoon (assuming this isn't some other Shana I'm not aware of?) so I wouldn't be worried there. Luna, if I'm not mistaken, leaves not long after Nash joins, which brings up the speed average and certainly means that Luna is going after Yoshi's WHOLE TEAM. I doubt she's getting off the Sleep spell.
It's 37% against Auto-Shell, yes. When investigating FFX-2 before, apparently Haste isn't tremendously good, either, so reasonable to hype Rikku's Haste as better than it.
Also I almost forgot but KOS can build up to a Boost before trying to rush down, so that should be 4x attacks in a row in trying to finish the job? That + 100FP Summon/Gatling + buffs should probably do the trick, actually. Given enough time. Of course, Monkey has to deal with Mascot Y spamming Death every single turn on Rikku or KOS which will blow away their buffs, but Virginia will keep going with infinite resources to revive 'em? Hmm. Still potentially interesting but looking brighter for Monkey.
As I understand it, the Full Libra is blanket status immunity, so Death is a no-go, but couldn't Moogle Beam outright kill her? The stat topic says it's ITD, but I'm not sure whether that damage is reduced with Protect or not. If it is, that helps, since Rikku can throw up a Light Curtain. Either way, Virginia is the only one with revival, so she seems like the most important target regardless, and Mascot Yuna being status immune herself means all Rikku will be doing is buffing.
Also, does anyone know what FF10-2 Regen is like? If it's anything like FF10 Regen (regaining HP on EVERY turn that passes, including enemies and allies), then that certainly won't make the slugfest go any faster.
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That's lame that Anti Magic won't work, but I don't think it changes much. Ramza stil has Auto Potion and if Cecilia has the parasol by now that she's almost impossible for the bosses to kill unless they completely focus on her in which case Kyra and Ramza just bring her right back. Even without the parasol her and Kyra's magic durabilities are pretty good and Kyra and Ceci have a ton of healing between them.
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Moogle Beam is a ~1.45 PCHP ITD Physical (remember, the kill point listed in the topic does not include Mascot Y herself, so it should go up a bit when she's in play). Don't think ITD matters vs. Protect, so as long as Virginia has at least .75 PCHP effective physical durability, she's probably fine.
Also, Yoshi, I was referring to Deathing KOS & Rikku repeatedly.
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Going to point out that Valiant is a spell that comes on the Flash Hit medium, since Monkey's Virginia does not have that in his setup, that spell is a no go.
Also, I wouldn't personally consider Cecilia to have "Great" healing, Remedy is only about a 50% mt heal, it's great in game sure, since damage tends to never really exceed 50%, but in the dungeon? yeah. Parasol isn't until floor 6 (You get the hint in the Elw World, after which the only dungeons left are De Le Metalicca, the Gemini place, Pandemonium, and Artica Castle before the final dungeons). Honestly, I think the only thing that is actually hypable about Cecilia on this floor is that she can actually use Randomizer for the chance at pretty numbers without having to worry about the chance of one of the backfired status spells.
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Hmm. I'm taking another look at Team Dude, since now I note that his offense is bad. Just... giving up the first round in the dungeon is horrible horrible horrible Neph, and that looks like a lot of mage type characters to futilely wail on W8. (There's a reason this combo was banned for a long time.) Even teams with bad damage can snipe a few key targets given 5 actions to play with.
I mean... take the Ghaleon fight. Ghaleon eats a round of damage, then opens with 3x Physical on W8, possibly eating a counter, but let's say that's fatal. (Very well might not be due to Defense UP). Ghaleon eats another round of damage, possibly sans Ramza if he bothers to Phoenix Down W8. Ghaleon uses Hell Wave + Rock & Roll for ~80% MT damage, killing Ditto. Round 3, Cecilia uses the 50% MT healing move and I presume Kyra has some MT healing as well. Ramza & revived W8 (who is immune to the MT magic) maintain the beats. Round 4.... repeat? And Ghaleon is probably giving up a double sometime soon here due to turn-based low speed -> doubles disrespect. Think dude grinds it out anyway. Same deal with Zog / Sara, they can't threaten past the healing.
I suspect looking now that the only potentially dangerous fight might be the first one, but not really a Nina4 / Ness expert. All 3 seem tanky enough to maybe survive round 1 against dude's offense, which gives them a shot, but I'm not sure what they can do with it.
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Hmm. I'm taking another look at Team Dude, since now I note that his offense is bad. Just... giving up the first round in the dungeon is horrible horrible horrible Neph, and that looks like a lot of mage type characters to futilely wail on W8. (There's a reason this combo was banned for a long time.) Even teams with bad damage can snipe a few key targets given 5 actions to play with.
I mean... take the Ghaleon fight. Ghaleon eats a round of damage, then opens with 3x Physical on W8, possibly eating a counter, but let's say that's fatal. (Very well might not be due to Defense UP). Ghaleon eats another round of damage, possibly sans Ramza if he bothers to Phoenix Down W8. Ghaleon uses Hell Wave + Rock & Roll for ~80% MT damage, killing Ditto. Round 3, Cecilia uses the 50% MT healing move and I presume Kyra has some MT healing as well. Ramza & revived W8 (who is immune to the MT magic) maintain the beats. Round 4.... repeat? And Ghaleon is probably giving up a double sometime soon here due to turn-based low speed -> doubles disrespect. Think dude grinds it out anyway. Same deal with Zog / Sara, they can't threaten past the healing.
I suspect looking now that the only potentially dangerous fight might be the first one, but not really a Nina4 / Ness expert. All 3 seem tanky enough to maybe survive round 1 against dude's offense, which gives them a shot, but I'm not sure what they can do with it.
Ghaleon really only has to do 1x physical on W8 and then can resort to his MT spells. It doesn't matter if he's hurting W8 or not, there, since he'll just keep using his MT spells to kill everyone else.
Zog's breath focusing on W8 seems kind of bad, and also keep in mind that Char is MT and I think Gale is too.
I'm not saying he loses, I'm just saying I think there's more to it than "W8 takes all damage and is fine."
I changed the Firefly stone so it no longer affects MT, so... eh, whatever.
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Nina4 gets 2HKOed from average physicals even with 25% reduction so Ramza and Kyra can probably take her out since Ramza's physicals hurt pretty bad right now. Also if Remedy is essentially a MT Heal spell than its quite a bit better than 50% healing. Closer to 70% (Heal is 2600 to a 3600 HP average.) Ditto is probably going to change into Ramza for most of the fights on this floor which means that both are going to have Auto Potion making them difficult to kill. Zog's MT physical is also really really terrible. (Char is quite good, but Sara doesn't have the MT to push it to really dangerous levels. Ceci can keep up with their MT). Kyra doesn't have MT healing, but her and Cecilia should be able to keep up with most of the damage on this floor with Ramza and Ditto helping out with Auto Potion.
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Ditto doesn't get Auto-Potion from turning into Ramza. He would get to pick 4 of Ramza's moves and then have 5 charges of them, and would get Ramza's PA/MA/Brave/Faith (=non HP stats). Checking Bulbapedia, "Transform does not copy the target Pokémon's Ability" which would be the closest analogue.
No MT healing on Kyra? Weird. Well that makes things more interesting as now Cecilia can't keep up with Ghaleon in the long-game, and no Parasol yet as Glen noted. There's still Auto-Potion + W8 being annoying to contend with of course, and a lot of potential ST healing to stall. Still, Ghaleon's an interesting fight now since team dude has to "blitz" him out before his healing is overwhelmed. Hmm.
Neph, I wouldn't see physical + MT spell being a particularly compelling option for Ghaleon turn 1 anyway, it might save him a turn of Cecilia damage by forcing her to heal, but in exchange he eats a turn of Worker 8 damage which is probably worse. I don't let Zog spam Char every turn so that strategy is out and Cecilia can probably keep up the healing. As for MT on turn 1, sure, let's say W8 dies horribly from 5x damage Zog physical - he just gets revived.
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Ditto doesn't get Auto-Potion from turning into Ramza. He would get to pick 4 of Ramza's moves and then have 5 charges of them, and would get Ramza's PA/MA/Brave/Faith (=non HP stats). Checking Bulbapedia, "Transform does not copy the target Pokémon's Ability" which would be the closest analogue.
I just tested this, and this is only true for Gen 3. I think most of the pokemon in the dungeon are running off of Gen 4 so it seems fair to assume that Ditto is as well. As for other things, if the team gets in really dire straights, Ramza can chip in with Murasame for some GT healing which should be good enough so that Murasame + Ceci healing tops off the team. Zog's physical MT physical isn't coming close to killing worker 8. It's seriously something like 30 damage to a 250 hp average and I think if nothing else the speed advantage tips the Ghaleon fight in my favor and lets them get in the hits they need. Final note is that Hell Wave isn't complete MT. Stat topic says that it usually hits around 3 people which sounds about right unless the team is bunching up for Murasame.
Edit: Ditto is definitely a Gen 4 or beyond Ditto because Quick Powder was introduced in Gen 4.
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Just a few initial remarks, not voting yet or anything.
Team Yoshiken vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana- Ephraim can kill Shana if desired. Team combined can't really off both Hahn and Luna (And no reliable status too). So...say Luna gets off that 80% MT Sleep. This could just go very badly quickly. Healers will be asleep (as will be the sole MT attacker in Eiko). Gadwin and Mareg can knock Eiko out at least.
Wouldn't it be better for Ephraim (and Jessica, if needed) to kill off Luna before she actually uses that MT sleep? Shana literally can't do anything productive on her first turn, and needs to actually attack to charge up her Dragoon (assuming this isn't some other Shana I'm not aware of?) so I wouldn't be worried there. Luna, if I'm not mistaken, leaves not long after Nash joins, which brings up the speed average and certainly means that Luna is going after Yoshi's WHOLE TEAM. I doubt she's getting off the Sleep spell.
I see Shana starting with SP, so leaving her alive means that the team eats 55% MT Damage, which means that someone tends needed to waste a turn using MT healing. So Eph goes after her. Then they have to go after Hahn, because Hahn will ID Eiko on average turn 1. Helps if you don't see Shana starting with SP (which is fairly conventional), although that final fight is killer (And Eiko is likely still falling somewhere to start the Nall revives->some quick pokes and kills Eiko cycle; likely the VP fight at worst). Of course, Tia has a 50/50 of tying someone up too, to make the fight harder.
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Dude, that average is with Cecilia equipping a Necromnicon, which she also doesn't have access to until floor 6, without that her damage/non Hi-Heal healing are literally half as good. Remedy right now is probably 50% pchp at best, given worse heal but lower hp numbers to counteract that somewhat(and lower magic). If you ever need to Opt for Parasol for her by endgame floors, her mt healing will never be much better then ~35ish percent outside of Mystic or Raftina summons.
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Necronomicon being floor 6 is a judgement call. There's still 3 dungeons or so between De La Metallica and Ka Dingel. I'd say that at the very least she'd have it for the Ghaleon fight.
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Copied from when my Cecilia team was in the dungeon:
As for where Cecilia is at in the Dungeon, Wild Arms has 30 none optional dungeons in game, so she goes through 4 and a half dungeons per floor which looks something like:
Floor 1: Prologues, Lolithia's Tomb, Secret Passage, Mountain Pass
Floor 2: Guardian Shrine, Mt. Zenom, Cage Tower, Maze of Death, Sand River
Floor 3: Pleasing Garden, Ghost Ship, Volcannon Trap, Tripillar
Floor 4: Giants Cradle, Epitaph Sea, Sacred Shrine, Photosphere, Dragon Shrine
Floor 5: (Cecilia can learn Hi-Magic at this point) Wandering Isle, Dead Sanctuary, Demons Lab, Gate Generator
Floor 6: (The clue to getting Holy Parasol comes at this point)Forest Prison, De Le Metallica, Gemini's Corpse, Pandemonium
Floor 7: Artica Castle, Ka Dingle, all of Malduke
Honestly, it's not really a judgement call at all to me that it's floor 6. It's basically in the middle of the list for floor 6 and that is with the 3 prologue dungeons being grouped together.
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dude: Interesting. I assumed from the Bulbapedia page that it meant "Gen 3 and beyond" or the like. Someone should edit the Transform description to be clearer. I don't think it matters much anyway, as the worse durability means that Ditto risks getting KOed anyway. Apparently Auto-Potion triggers just once vs. Two Swords, so it probably only triggers once vs. Ghaleon's double-acts too (although it's debatable).
Team dude | Cecilia, Ramza, Worker 8 (Firefly), Kyra, Ditto
[Ramza: Samurai, Item, Attack UP, Auto Potion]
Team dude vs. Ghaleon (SSC)
Right, so Ghaleon vs. dude. Easier since it's just a slugfest with no buffs in play or anything.
Samurai Ramza: .61 PCHP an Attack UP attack.
Cecilia: .26 PCHP endgame w/ Necronomicon. Which is kind of quasi-legal to me even at endgame. But sure whatever. (Possible that Jack & Rudy have enough worse options now that Cecilia's Hi-Spell damage is comparatively better for a bit anyway.)
Kyra: I don't know PS4 but at endgame she's .37 PCHP, possibly a tad less since the stat topic average ignores OPB stuff that'd come up in a 3-turn average. Call it .35 PCHP.
Ditto: Probably does want to become Ramza.
W8: .41 PCHP when not inflicting self-damage. More if he can afford HP.
Ditto transform / Ramza attack / Cecilia attack / Kyra attack / coin-flip between W8 and Ghaleon, maybe W8 damage, then Worm Crush x2 on W8.
Total dude damage: 1.24 PCHP (+W8 damage?)
I would have thought that W8 survived Ghaleon's combos thanks to Defence UP, but actually he doesn't because Worm Crush is that physical teleport move that hits an area, so W8 takes 3x damage from each one and goes down. As for who goes first... well Worker 8 is slower than Dragon Cane Mia, so it's hard to say. W8 also is slow in a CTB system with doubles so it's quite possible Ghaleon is faster here. Also, on second thought, since Worm Crush exists it's probably not worth trying to revive W8. He's slow and won't get a turn and can be cleaned up by Worm Crush, not worth a Ramza turn.
Round 2: Ditto attack / Ramza attack / Cecilia attack / Kyra attack / Tornado-> Hell Wave (Tornado guaranteed MT and to bring people together for the Hell Wave) for .81 PCHP MT damage
Total dude damage: 1.24 PCHP + (W8?) + 1.83 PCHP = 3.07 PCHP (+W8?)
Ditto dies, Ramza might have had Auto-Potion kick in, everyone else is in trouble such that it's probably not worth going defensive - have Kyra heal Ramza if need be and hope he can solo at this point.
Round 3: Ramza / Cecilia / Kyra (?) attack, possibly having Kyra heal Ramza if needed. Ghaleon wipes out Kyra & Cecilia.
Total dude damage: 3.07 PCHP (+W8?) + .87 + (Kyra?) = 3.94 + (W8?) + (Kyra?)
Round 4 Ramza hits Ghaleon again for .61 PCHP damage, and may well get a double, so hits Ghaleon for 1.22 PCHP damage before Ghaleon kills him with 3x physical. The point is Ghaleon just took ~5 PCHP damage, possibly more if W8 and Kyra got in additional damage. That should be plenty to take him down.
Yup, vote for dude to pass stands.
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If you don't see auto potion as interrupting Ghaleon's two actions allowing Ditto to survive, then his best option is probably to turn into Cecilia. Cecilia Mdef gives Ditto the durability needed to survive Ghaleon's turn if he spams MT stuff and the two can spam Remedy so Ramza and Kyra can focus on offense without having to worry about Ghaleon's attacks. Also since Ghaleon is spamming MT skills then Cecilia should be gaining FP at a fair rate. I'm not sure how much good it's going to do, but it could help if you give her a few Mega Berries for mystic.
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On second thought, RandomConsonant pointed out something in chat - the Samurai damage figures in the FFT stat topic assume Two-Hands. But Two-Hands is not innate to Samurai. Samurai can't equip Shields, either. So... Attack UP is pretty much strictly worse than Two Hands unless I'm missing something.
Assuming Ramza is really using Two Hands not Attack UP, that's .46 PCHP damage he's actually emitting (if we pretend that Floor 5 Samurai has the same damage output as at endgame). This will hurt Ditto's mimic'd turns, too, if he transforms into Ramza. So... losing ~1 PCHP or so over the entire fight. Which is still enough to kill Ghaleon to me (I see him as around 4 PCHP, and there's the Kyra / W8 potential turns in there to strongly tiebreak in dude's favor), but this might make some of the earlier fights more questionable now.
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Samurai Ramza's damage is more in the neighbourhood of 0.33 PCHP due to Samurai not having innate Two Hands and the katana damage formula failing at life (assuming Attack Up as listed here, obviously) (may not be quite this figure, since I'm basing this off of endgame numbers, but it should come fairly close). Draw Out might be slightly better on damage if one seems Muramasas being storebought at this time but I don't think I do. Meanwhile I am also inclined to view Ceci's damage as even less than what Snowfire is pegging it as since the stat topic also gives Ceci Raftina and her +30% SOR boost which I find questionable for F5 even if I allowed it, which I don't think I do. Granted Jack and maybe Rudy suffer as a result of this and probably make the end result not *that* much worse but eh. That said the issue of Mystic came up in chat and Neph said no since it wasn't factored into Ceci's cost, so if taken as definitive ruling that leaves her with the much more costly Extend to cover the MT healing.
Not sure enough to cast a vote at this point, but it's pretty uphill for dude's team.
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Hey Neph, I didn't know about Two Hands not being innate and the stat topic didn't really indicate one way or the other, would it be alright if I swapped from Attack Up to Two Hands?
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I think it's fair to let you switch based on that, yes. I will switch it in the writeup.
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Alright so there are a couple of judgement calls on this floor so I'll post an analysis for the case where Cecilia doesn't have Necornomicon/Parasol and double acting characters don't trigger auto potion till the end of both their turns. This also assumes that Ditto can only acquire 4 skills from whoever he turns into.
Team dude vs. Ryu1, Nina4 and Ness
I thought about this one for a bit and I think the simplest strategy for the team is for Ditto to transform into Nina and Ramza to use Bizen Boat to kill Ness and Nina's mp. That means that after the first turn the turn order should be something like Nina4->Ditto Nina->Ryu->Kyra->Ramza->Ceci->Ness->Worker. Average mp at endgame for FFT generics is ~60 and Bizen Boat does 24. Nina and especially Ness both have a ton of MP so it probably takes around 4-5 to take out Nina's MP and 5-6 to take out Ness's but Ceci can help out with MP Drain if she finds an opening. With this order, Ceci and Ditto Nina are splitting Ryu and Ness's turns with MT healing so the enemy offense is pretty much neutralized. Ramza takes out Ness's MP which should happen right before Ditto runs out of Vigors and with Ness's offense reduced to ST, Ditto can swap to Vitalize and Restore instead. Once enemy Nina is out of MP, the team takes out Ness and Ryu and heals up.
Team dude vs. Mitsuo the Hero, Adachi and Shadow Teddie
More simple than the above. All of them are slowish and Teddie and Mitsuo don't get their big damage till later. Vorpal blade takes out Worker, but the other two can't really do much. Ceci heals up any damage they do and the team takes down Adachi on the second round. Teddie and Mitsuo aren't a threat beyond that.
Team dude vs. Zog and Sarah
This fight would be more dangerous if the two weren't so slow. As it is now, my team get's about two full turns to wail on Zog and Sarah before they can really start to threaten the rest of the team. Ditto's best option is to turn into Kyra who's pumping out about .55 PCHP each round because of the magic weakness. Zog Breath+Sarah physical doesn't quite take out Worker 8, but it comes close, probably enough to force him to use a basic physical instead of his Work skills. On their second turn, Zog and Sarah can combine to take someone out and heavily damage the rest of the team but Zog will be at death's door. By that time he will have taken 2 Ceci Spells, 2 Ramza hits, 3 Kyra spells (2 Kyra + 1 Ditto), and 3 Worker 8 hits (2 regular + 1 counter attack) This comes out to be around 4.6 PCHP and I've got Zog at around 5 PCHP. Next turn Ditto, Kyra and if necessary Worker finish him off while Ramza Murasames to stop Sarah from taking out anyone. Sarah's not threatening by herself so the team recovers and regroups.
Team dude vs. Holly and Delphi
Easier than the last one. Delphi and Holly have less health than Zog and Sarah and require 3 of their 4 attacks to really take out anyone. 1st turn the team focus fires on Delphi and should be able to take her out by the end of the second round. The two witches might take out Ceci or someone, but Delphi is going down immediately after and Holly can't deal with the team by herself. They heal Up before eventually finishing the fight.
Team dude vs. Ghaleon (SSC)
Snowfire's analysis works. I think Ditto turning into Ceci might be a slightly better option because it allows Kyra and Ramza an extra action or two, but the difference won't be too substantial. Snowfire's analysis also throws out doubles as well which could edge to fight a bit more in my favor and the fight becomes much easier if Ceci gets the Necronomicon or Auto Potion activates in between Ghaleon's actions.
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Tenative pass for dude's team. It's slow but the fights don't really demand speedy cleanup.
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Jo'ou passes.
Yoshiken fails. I give LoD characters starting SP, so Ephraim has to waste his turn on Shana and the Eiko murder parade begins.
dude passes. I'm a bit lenient on WA floors, so Ceci likely has the Necronomicon or Parasol here. I can also buy a W8 tiebreak in his favor.
Monkey... fails. I just can't see his team getting past the final two boss rushes. I don't think there's enough ways to charge up Rikku's Overdrive or Virginia's FP for the tricks he'll need. Those two rely on evadeable physicals for most of their durability, too. A lucky shot anywhere likely screws over any intricate plan there.
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OMG FLOOR 1 HAS SINSPAWN AMMES, SO OVERPOWER-*shot*
Yeah, Jo'ou passes pretty easily. Zerase chucks Meteors everywhere and very few people get up.
Still looking things over, but I'm not sure the result will change. Probably a fail for Team Yoshi. Regrettably just not enough offense on the team.
Team dude passes. I've never played Wild Arms, so I can't make a call one way or the other about the Necronomicon and stuff, but I think they pass regardless. The first fight might not go down very quickly, but I think it's manageable nonetheless. Worker 8 doubtlessly dies a couple of times, but he can be revived.
And, as for Team Monkey... Well, he has trouble keeping up with Mascot Yuna in my eyes, and the last two fights are boss rushes without the benefit of a full heal. Since a Full Heal officially means a Reset, Rikku can't build up an Overdrive for the boss fights either, and these aren't really bosses that you can spend time building an Overdrive against. Still, Rikku doesn't need Overdrives to help; MT full healing w/ Healing Water means the bosses can't bumrush Virginia, and I'm not sure any boss can actually OHKO her, so that helps! However, I am being told that, with Virginia's current Mediums, her only status healing consumes all her FP. So, Team Monkey probably loses against a durable boss w/ status. Which there are a couple of in the boss rushes, at least. Leaning fail for Team Monkey.
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[Love Charm, Brave Seal and Fiery Rage]
[Floor 8: Maze of Trials]
*Virginia has been granted Full Libra
*KOS-MOS has been granted Double Buster
Team Monkey vs. Mascot Yuna (FFX-2)- X-2 speeds are so weird. Moogle Beam can take out Virginia though. So rushing potential...I guess I would not see Str Up and Hyper stacking. So...can't really buff the same offensive stat effectively, but only one of the other of KOS-MOS. Still...doubled X-Buster under Ether Limit does 2.6 PC HP. Rikku...really can't add much as once, but has a lot of hits. Virginia isn't really in a magic bam setup, although Devastate is certainly decent ST. Of course, all this needs turns of setup. However, Reflect should cover Doom/Death at the least? So Yuna is limited to sniping with Moogle Beam or perhaps Black Sky against Rikku if Shell is not up.
I guess orderwise Rikku should Reflect herself, Reflect KOS-MOS, haste self and then teammates. This does give Yuna time to snipe her. Virginia can use of course revive, but at 1 HP, needs Rikku to go again before Yuna. Overall, this fight is just kind of messy. They don't really have the ability to completely rush at once since that level of damage just is not there. Just looking at the other fights too assuming they get through this.
Team Monkey vs. Zeromus, Exdeath and Chaos
Team Monkey vs. Boss Timelord and Belial (No 4D Pocket)- Haha. AL BHED POTION CURES Stone. Virginia casts Status Lock on Rikku, KOS-MOS uses an X-Buster (should kill Belial but not trigger TL's limit). Self buff KOS-MOS, go to town.
*Full Heal
Team Monkey vs. Luther (When defeated, all buffs and debuffs applied after the start of the fight are removed and CT is reset, and is replaced with Cyril and Indalecio, then again with Xorn, then again with Profound Darkness)- Well, Luther is lol, then Cyril and Indy at least have some starting damage to prevent endless stalling. PD can certainly KO Virginia at base FP (She can buff FP for the dangers of Xorn; Cyril+Indy can too). PD's physical at one point is ITE too (As crit's were?)
Team Monkey vs. Myria 1 (When defeated, all buffs and debuffs applied after the start of the fight are removed and CT is reset, and is replaced Deathevans and Barubary, then Myria 3, then with Fou-lu)- Status starts coming in more here (and ID too). A lot of stuff where reflectability may get questionable (Stuff like evil eye). Gut reaction on the team is not passing. Either fight 1 or somewhere in the effectively 8 fight string gets them (Although...I'm not sure how the 8 fight string is supposed to scale. If I'm assuming full CT reset for everyone, but they are supposed to get their full HP. The reset hurts Rikku and Virginia- no extra FP, which would be nice. I was also assuming that Nall is only kicking in between PD and Myria 1).
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There is no HP/MP reset. It is essentially just like a chain battle except without buffs. I should probably remove "debuffs" since I didn't mean for it to apply to things like petrify or whatnot.
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So Virginia would keep FP gained from battle-to-battle (a la Nega Filgaia) but buffs magically fall off?
Anyway I'd actually vote pass on Monkey's team if Virginia had all WA3 magic available. If her status-healing requires blowing FP, though, that's bad. Sure, some of the final bosses have status, but more importantly Yuna has both Break & Doom. Virginia is not going to stand alone beside a petrified Rikku & petrified KOS. Faililng that, there's also dropping Doom on one of them, then Death at the right time afterward.
So call it a fail on team Monkey for now. If it turns out Virginia can heal status without blowing FP, I may change my vote.
Random thoughts on Team Yoshi.
Team Yoshiken | Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team Yoshiken vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana
Don't give Shana starting SP. Ephraim exterminates Luna, but can Tia distract with Sleep or whatever? Hahn has ID but I assume it's ST, and MT speed debuffing. Maybe Eiko can status him? Ah but PS4 status-halving. Hrm. If Alicia doesn't have Invoke Feather yet by now after all, that does complicate things a lot, as offing Eiko / Jessica seems quite doable.
Team Yoshiken vs. Palom, Porom, Edward, Cid and Yang
Lots of status, but not much Twins respect. If the first fight did knock Eiko & Jessica out, then the two speedsters can off 'em again. Although... that actually doesn't matter. Leave Cid alive, subsist on Alicia healz, let Nall eventually revive a healer in-battle, then heal up to full.
Team Yoshiken vs. Albel, Adray, Roger Huxley, Noel and Chisato
Yeah, team Yoshi can't chew threw all of them fast enough to avoid Eiko's MP from getting nuked. That's a problem, but the later fights are easier.
Team Yoshiken vs. Yumei, Badrach, Aelia, Lorenta and Grey
Team Yoshi needs to kill two of them to stop Great Magic + total death of somebody. Eph kills one, but Eiko & Alicia are average speed, and Gilder isn't OHKOing even Yumei. Maaaybe with midgame Jessica physical hype?
I guess. Somebody non-Ephraim still dies but it doesn't matter.
Team Yoshiken vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf, Olan, Alma and Reis
No idea. Eiko's basically dead weight but Eph is still offing a person a round and is hard to touch even if the rest of the team falls apart.
Call it an abstain for now. Think Yoshi does have an argument to pass here but it's the first three fights that are tricky.
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Finalizing votes, my team and Jo'ou's team pass, abstain on Yoshi, Monkey fails.