The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => Tournaments => Topic started by: Nephrite on September 09, 2012, 04:51:33 PM
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Gilderoy/nya9ac-1.jpg)
"Ho ho ho... congratulations. It's been a while since I've been able to face someone directly. Let's see if you can manage to cross that final finish line. As for your other friends... I have some new surprises for them, too!"
Link to the Dungeon Wiki! (http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php/Full_List_of_Dungeon_Participants)
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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.
Team Tide | Ramza, Cecilia ACF, Citan (BC), Seifer, Raynie
[Ramza: Priest/Time Magic/Auto Potion/Short Charge/Move MP Up] [Chemist, Wizard, Time Mage, Priest (Summoner)(Oracle)]
*Citan has been granted a Speed Ring S (+2 Speed)
*Cecilia has been granted FP Advance.
*Ramza has been granted Robe of Lords.
*Seifer has been granted Brothers GF and the Defend command.
"Ah, but this wouldn't be any fun if you just lost immediately, would it? Let's see your hopes dashed against the rocks!"
***The team gets two initiative turns against the first three bosses and the Ragus may not use One Trillion Degrees.
Team vs. Ragu O Ragola (WA:ACF) (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,116.msg126302.html#msg126302)
*Full Heal
Team vs. Ragu O Ragola (WA4) (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,198.msg84858.html#msg84858)
*Full Heal
Team vs. Ragu O Ragola (WA:XF) (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,719.msg82725.html#msg82725)
*Full Heal
Team vs. Margaret (P4) (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,2756.msg46745.html#msg46745)
*Full Heal
Team vs. Nyarlathotep, Nyx Avatar and Izanami
Team Super | Miakis, Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Brey (Status Symbol Law)
[Miakis: Mother Earth, Gale, Magic Absorb]
Floor 6b: Overachievers
Team vs. Myria 1 and Jade
*Full Heal*
Team vs. Katrina and Charlton Blunt (XF)
*Full Heal*
Team vs. Rhapthorne and Dhoulmagus
*Full Heal*
Team vs. Loki and Surt
*Full Heal*
Team vs. Apocrypha and Heiss
Team Snowfire | Fang, Vanille, Snow (Firefly), Lightning (Leader), Hope
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Snowfire vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4) and Gorudo
Team Snowfire vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team Snowfire vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Snowfire vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and LORD OCHU (FFX)
Team Snowfire vs. Lich and Kraken
Team Magic | Deis1, Rydia (Life)+Rosa,Hilda, Jane, Nall
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Magic vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4) and Gorudo
Team Magic vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team Magic vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Magic vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and LORD OCHU (FFX)
Team Magic vs. Lich and Kraken
Body Charge - Increases the health, damage and effective speed of a character by 1.3x and decreases damage to them to .7x.
Firefly - The first attack of each enemy will be redirected at the bearer of this sealstone. Multitarget moves are not affected.
Status Symbol Law - Team is fully status, debuff and ID immune, but has damage done to them increased by 1.1x and damage done by them decreased to .9x.
Life - One character's healing effects now also allows for revival, but reduces the final effect of any healing to 75%. (This means full healing is always 75%) The healing also only revives characters with 1 HP. The healing received from spells that hit more than one target may be used as revival once per battle.
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Question about Snowfire's team. So if Lightning dies is that game over or does that just mean that she's the leader for TP purposes?
Also Tide fails, Margaret and WA ACF Ragu aren't too bad. But he has trouble damaging WA4 Ragu and that one is faster than Citan with haste.
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I have no idea what kind of scaling are you using to give Ragu 40x PC HP. -Unscaled-, using 2.5x average damage convention and taking Tide's averages (which I'm eyeing and considering rather -low-, for starters), he sports something like 16x PC HP.
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Oh you're right, I accidentally added in an extra zero when calculating his hp. Don't think it really changes that much though. Citan is still the crux of tides offense and he has trouble hitting Ragu.
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Yes, if Lightning dies then the team loses.
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Also, Citan with a Speed Ring S and Body Charge *is* faster than Ragu4 after Haste (~702% to Ragu4's listed 674.6%). Not that this helps him particularly much since Ragu4 can dodge Citan's attacks like it ain't no thang, but still.
at any rate, Tide fails, I think. Not sure how he handles WAXF Ragu even if he has an argument for WA4 Ragu.
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Tide fails. Izanami is difficult for a team to beat by themselves, let alone with two other bosses for support.
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Okay, so some introductory notes on the FF13 team. First off, a good shorthand for floors / chapters is 2 chapters a floor, and Chap 13 for F7... except... that isn't QUITE true. Especially important here since obviously non-Fang characters are lol in Chapter 1/2. Notably, Chapters 2 & 8 are really short, Chapter 7 is kind of long, and Chapter 11 is REALLY long (and possibly even longer if you sidequest a bit). Thus, if we call all chapters not named 2 segments, 2/8 = 1 segment, Chap 7 = 3 segments, and Chap 11 = 5 segments, we end up with:
7*2 + 2*1 + 1*3 + 1*5 = 24 segments.
Or roughly something like:
Floor 1: 1-3
F2: 4-5
F3: 6- first half of 7
F4: 7-9
F5: 10- first third of C11
F6: C11
F7: C12-13
The point is the characters are l'Cie for Floor 1, and I'd recommend this as a patch anyway even if not true to not have FF13 be totally useless on F1.
Next, an interesting fact: no matter what crazy scalings you apply or what you think about role legality, since my team is 5/6 of the FF13 damage average, if the team just blasts away with their best single-target offense they're pretty well guaranteed to do .4*5 = 2PCHP damage, roughly. It'll be a bit higher as a group - a bunch of Commandos buff each other with team bonuses, and while the self-buff is already factored into the damage averages, the team buff obviously isn't, so maybe a wee bit more.
dude: Yeah, I told Neph I'd rather have a double-edged sword for the frue FF13 experience. So leader death = game over, but Summons become legal as well as the flip side of this. This is why I also took Firefly so as to not instantly die. Anyway, for fights that last until Turn 2, the idea is that Snow will already have Provoked / Challenged people who can kill the leader, so Firefly's 1-turn duration will be enough.
On that note, other figures to know... Snow is 1.25 PCHP. When he's Sentineling it up, though, he gets a big damage reduction bonus (And applies some to the rest of the party, too). Starts at 35% reduction, eventually hits 50% reduction. So he's something like 1.92 effective PCHP to break at the moment when going Sentinel. Even more once he throws the Mediguard / Entrench / STEELGUARD / etc. up, of course, but that is usually secondary to getting the provoke on.
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Okay after all that rambling. Pass for me because dur, infinite healing vs. Floor 1. Leaning pass for Magic as well unless someone can point out a way for the Dungeon team to neutralize Deis1. Deis1 stomps stuff otherwise while being backed by Rydia/Rosa/Hilda healing. (If Deis is somehow dealt with Magic is in big trouble of course, but don't see an easy way off hand, short of Lich's Hold, which will be too late because Deis1 will cast Fire magic first + Jane shoot.)
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dude: Yeah, I told Neph I'd rather have a double-edged sword for the frue FF13 experience. So leader death = game over, but Summons become legal as well as the flip side of this. This is why I also took Firefly so as to not instantly die. Anyway, for fights that last until Turn 2, the idea is that Snow will already have Provoked / Challenged people who can kill the leader, so Firefly's 1-turn duration will be enough.
On that note, other figures to know... Snow is 1.25 PCHP. When he's Sentineling it up, though, he gets a big damage reduction bonus (And applies some to the rest of the party, too). Starts at 35% reduction, eventually hits 50% reduction. So he's something like 1.92 effective PCHP to break at the moment when going Sentinel.
I don't know, it seems like a really big risk for not much payoff. Lightening has bad durability and with the Firefly changes it doesn't stop MT damage or status anymore. If the team runs into any sort of above average ID or petrify they're screwed off the bat. Fringeward helps with the MT damage, but it still seems really risky.
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Well it's an FF13 team, so the goal is more to have fun with FF13 than win the dungeon really.
Lightning's durability is fine, not sure what you're getting at. Hope's the one with bad durability.
Status moves? ....oh. Okay the team is screwed then. This is a new change to Firefly, when the team was submitted it was obviously in the original version pre-nerf, but last I checked it the nerf was just multitarget that ignored Firefly. (And MT OHKO damage through Fringeward means I've lost anyway, leader or no, so that's actually not a big deal.) Yeah okay my team dies to the first above-average speed status slinger. :( Guess FF got nerfed harder, which is fine because it's one of the most dominating Sealstones, just this particular nerf is trouble for me of course.
Edit: Well. Cherub's Crown for ID protection is apparently Floor 6, so if the team can sneak that far, then maybe. Still a problem for fatal non-ID statuses not in FF13 like Petrify, of course. We'll see, I guess.
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Neph: As a clarification, am I fighting form change Izanami/Nyx? Or specifically the specified form of Izanami/Nyx? (I don't think this matters because...see Random; I'm still thinking of a plausible way to get past Ragu XF, but Accelerate is cheap, Critical EXA is also cheap, and the damage blocking helps absolutely zilch. I'll take another look at it tomorrow, and try to BS something, but yeah! Pasta'd)
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Tide: You're fighting the form chains.
Snowfire: If you want to make modifications, you're very welcome to do so. I buried the Firefly changes in the old topic so it's no wonder you didn't know. I suppose I can also lift that restriction for now since it's kind of harsh.
I'm personally happy to make it such that things that are "Fatal" status don't kill you unless you have no way to remove them.
EDIT: Actually, let me remove the status thing entirely. We'll see how it plays out.
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Team Tide vs. Ragu O Ragula (WA:ACF)
*Full Heal
Team Tide vs. Ragu O Ragula (WA4)
*Full Heal
Team Tide vs. Ragu O Ragula (WA:XF)
*Full Heal
Team Tide vs. Margaret (P4)
*Full Heal
Team Tide vs. Nyarlathotep, Nyx Avatar and Izanami - :ragu:. Even if Team Tide made it through elsewhere, how would he handle Nyx of the "I get a guaranteed turn to Night Queen all week, everything is terrible~"?
Team Super | Miakis, Cristo, Angelo, DQ4 Hero, Brey (Status Symbol Law)
[Miakis: Mother Earth, Gale, Magic Absorb]
Floor 6b: Overachievers
Team aiel vs. Myria 1 and Jade - Um okay. First, Myria wants to OHKO Brey real bad because Acceleratle trivializes her. Miakis obviously opens with Canopy Defense to make Jade suck. Cristo Kabuffs, Angelo begins spamming revival and Solofia Fendspells to keep Jade in permanent low pressure mode. Myria can add -some- pressure with physicals until the second Kabuff, but I think things start falling in place as soon as a second Kabuff is up, and to make things worse, Myria is vulnerable to Surround (...). Given Miakis has infinite resources to boot, yeah, this works pretty well. It's pretty clear super picked Mother Earth+Gale -just for this fight-, but it was so worth it.
*Full Heal*
Team aiel vs. Katrina and Charlton Blunt (XF) - Charlton is faster than the team, but fails to OHKO Brey through SSL (...). Since Brey is -faster than Katrina at first-, Acceleratle drops in and Fendspell should handle Katrina's offense, at least. Past that, the team begins playing the buffing game and slowly handling the party. Ugly little attrition fight, but the team is pretty much -made- for those.
*Full Heal*
Team aiel vs. Rhapthorne and Dhoulmagus - Everybody but Solo is faster than the two losers and Miakis has 2HKO MT damage on Earthquake. Worst comes to worst, a combined assault of Miakis/Angelo/Brey handles Rhappy to me because Rule of Tim. Dhoulmagus by himself is endless trash.
*Full Heal*
Team aiel vs. Loki and Surt - Canopy Defense is kinda useless against Indiscriminate, but I doubt Loki and Surt can really threaten the team before Kabuff/Fendspell go up (Indiscriminate unfocusing has its issues), and Acceleratle is bad news for them.
*Full Heal*
Team aiel vs. Apocrypha and Heiss - Apocrypha is pretty much -worthless- against Canopy Defense and Heiss could use more durability. Kabuff also gives him problems because his good offense is very physical and telegraphed.
Team Snowfire - is FF13 and I can't vote. >_>
Team Magic | Deis1, Rydia (Life)+Rosa,Hilda, Jane, Nall
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Magic vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4) and Gorudo - :hrist:
Team Magic vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1) - Mage-heavy party vs. this fight. Oh wowzers. Granted, Rydia and Rosa pretty much suck this early and Life is a -horrible- choice for the pairing, but well. Deis1 is basically carrying the team on its back like a winner.
Team Magic vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius - ... wow, you actually manage to struggle on this fight... well, you -would-, but lol hilda essentially starts with grand slam so much for the fish. Axem Green takes physicals like Euram Barows, to boot, and he's the only one who doesn't die to GS. This fight is just way too unthreatening at base due to the egregious offense level outside Lucius and Axem Green (and only Axem has MT), but it's funny.
Team Magic vs. Mist Dragon, Whelk, Wingraptor (FF5), Garland (FF1) and LORD OCHU (FFX) - :deis1:
Team Magic vs. Lich and Kraken - And again.
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Snow you forget that Dhoulmagus and Rhapthorne both fly, thus they are immune to Earthquake.
(no I am not really hyping this)
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Snow you forget that Dhoulmagus and Rhapthorne both fly, thus they are immune to Earthquake.
(no I am not really hyping this)
No in-game mechanical evidence that this gives them any resistance to Earth, so yeah! I'm not sure I would see Rhappy surviving anyway, my credit for his HP is pretty much infinite. He should thank his lucky stars I give him PC HP.
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Pass to team Snowfire and Magic. Deis1 makes floor1 very, very sad. FF13 team has six fighters, all of whom are at least competent. Abstain on my team for now, I need to look up the RH fight.
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Aye, t'was a good run. For the record I do see my team managing to get to the last fight. But that last fight (mostly Izanami) does me in I think. My analysis...
**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.
Team Tide | Ramza, Cecilia ACF, Citan (BC), Seifer, Raynie
[Ramza: Priest/Time Magic/Auto Potion/Short Charge/Move MP Up] [Chemist, Wizard, Time Mage, Priest (Summoner)(Oracle)]
*Citan has been granted a Speed Ring S (+2 Speed)
*Cecilia has been granted FP Advance.
*Ramza has been granted Robe of Lords.
*Seifer has been granted Brothers GF and the Defend command.
***The team gets two initiative turns against the first three bosses and the Ragus may not use One Trillion Degrees.
Team vs. Ragu O Ragola (WA:ACF) - ACF Ragu's big gimmick is his ability to act at the end of his round for anywhere between 1 to 5 extra attacks. The trickiest part is that he has Dispel, which prevents any long term set up. So the team most likely goes with just Haste and then beat down. For a superboss, ACF Ragu's durability is merely "good", which with the level of damage pumping (especially via Command Replay off only one or two people), lets him be downed relatively quick.
*Full Heal
Team vs. Ragu O Ragola (WA4) - The only way I can really think of to win this is via the powers of SEIFER. Ramza/Raynie chip in, but this fight is largely about Seifer because he's the only who has a resourceless damage option and No Mercy arguably ignores Ragu's dangerous counters. The one upside to this fight is that there is no Dispel. So on the first two turns, Citan MUST set up Haste (at least on himself). It makes more sense to cast it MT, but at the very least, he needs to match Ragu's Speed, otherwise, he just repeatedly ST 2HKOs people until everyone is dead. With 700% average speed, Citan can match turn to turn with Ragu and heal off the damage. Incidentally, this also likely ties up a lot of Raynie's turns which will be spent regenerating Citan's MP. Cecilia definitely casts MT Permanance because this fight is LONG and either Reinforce (on herself mainly), MT Retaliate or Fragile on Ragu4. Ramza has the option of Slow/Holy/Meteor at his disposal, but he'll need to throw down Protect/Shell on people to keep Ragu4's assault manageable. With all this in place to keep Ragu4's offense in check, Seifer attacks/No Mercy with Ramza and Raynie chipping in. Thank god for MP restoration or this fight is likely not possible.
*Full Heal
Team vs. Ragu O Ragola (WA:XF) - Oh man, let's start with the epic here. First, Ragu has a MT 200 damage ITD attack that hits everyone on the field. FYI, average HP figures on XF teeter around maybe 300, possibly 350, so this is extremely bad news. Oh yeah, he's 512% average speed, so this causes loads and loads of problems. On top of that, he has Accelerate, which means his turns become unpredictable at points. Not cool. So how is this doable?
Well Slow can probably hit RaguXF; at least I think Slow Down hits him in-game. If not...well, the team wipes here. There's no way to know when he just double or worse insta-triples thanks to Accelerate bullshit and just wipe you to kingdom come. With Slow...this is manageable. Basically, the first two turns MUST be used to set up for defenses. Ramza has to cast Slow first, followed by Protect/Protect2 thanks to Ragu XF's physical, while Cecilia has to cast Anti-Elemental Barrier, followed by MT Permanance and Citan, MT Haste. Immediately after, Citan has to prepare another Renki, with Ramza getting a turn and passing it off at the most opportune moment to let Citan throw up Fire Shield. Subsequent Ramza turns are likely spent renewing Slow and the almighty FLOAT.
What does all this do? Well assuming it pans out (which I will), Ragu gets reduced to around 256% average, while the team gets much closer in speed. So this prevents the massive lapping constantly, and lets everyone else actually...y'know, get turns. This is important. Citan has to throw up Renki every now and then and heal because Ragu wants to spam that MT attack. However, with the barriers in play, its damage is greatly reduced. This leaves Ragu with a physical, which can be softened with Retaliate and Protect. Offense is actually not an issue here (especially since RaguXF is weak to Water and even if Citan is on healing duty 24/7, Ceci has Water). Again, it likely takes a while, but definitely doable.
If you don't think Slow hits...well, gg. At some point, RaguXF will get a consecutive series of turns (or relatively close consecutive series), and the combination of multiple physicals or that MT attack x3 times will probably kill enough people to prevent the battle from being winnable.
*Full Heal
Team vs. Margaret (P4) - Hilariously, Margaret is not an issue. Before the 75% mark, having only physicals as your offense is just a bad idea. So the team gets buffed up via Anti-Elemental Barrier, Protect/Shell, Haste, Command Replay and so on. During this phase, Citan also builds up to 28 AP as it will likely see use. Once the team is ready, they begin attacking. Margaret's elemental phases are handled by Anti-Elemental Barrier and Citan being faster so he can always prepare a MT Shield before hand to help soften the damage. Before Megidoloan, Citan also prepares Koga to boost everyone's defense some more, and everyone who can defend likely does so. This basically continues until all the way down to the 25% mark, at which point, she gains Hassou Tobi. The team aims to take her down to 25% right after Megidoloan, which should open up the door to attacking several turns in a row. Then before Margaret gets a chance to PC'd Hassou Tobi, everyone lobs something at her. There's no point in trying to stop Hassou Tobi (it just flat out MT OHKOs everyone sans Seifer) so there's absolutely no reason not to do this. By "lobs everything" I mean things like Dark Renegade, which will deal a massive amount of damage to Margaret since she also nulls all elements during that one particular turn, and on the turns before, Citan hitting Margaret with a full 28 AP Combo on an open turn (he'll likely get one thanks to the speed). This likely takes her out.
*Full Heal
Team vs. Nyarlathotep, Nyx Avatar and Izanami - Um...yeah. The only way to even beat this battle is to have lots of good ST because once you trigger one person's 2nd form (or in Nyx's case, last form), shit gets bad really fast. Thus, the ideal kill order is Nyarlie, then Nyx then Izanami. Nyx does nothing until form 2, so who cares. Izanami's damage can be walled, so that leaves Nyarlie, who more or less has to be killed ASAP thanks to his death spamming in form 1. This is thankfully possible! Form 2 even has a chance of being possible to kill as Haste/Protect/Anti-Elemental Barrier help to reduce a lot of tricks. Then we get to the other two bosses and um... yeah
Let's look at Nyx. Assuming I get all the way down to the 13th form (possible since all the other forms are pretty bad), Nyx gets this lovely little combo: PC at the end of one turn, and then PC Almighty Attack -> Almighty Attack the next. In case you're wondering, this deals MT OHKO damage. AND he can use it right off the bat. No limit whatsoever. "But Tide's PC in P3 is only x2! Not 2.5x!". Well guess what? 450 damage to a 489 HP average is 92%. If you considering that Izanami is STILL alive, she'll likely chip in the remaining 8% for free. Potentially, one of Shell/Protect could catch it, but Nyx can throw Marakunda to spoil that. Forget Night Queen. Night Queen gets potentially spoiled by Castle Wall spamming. Almighty Attack combo guts me dead before I get going to any degree. Oh and forget buffing. Nyx can Dispel those with Dekaja. So uh...yeah.
NOW, assuming from stroke of miracle, I make it past Nyx, we then have a lone Izanami! Sounds doable right? Nope. Guess what Izanami gets when gets down to 50%? Summons to Yomi. Kills anyone who is inflicted by a negative status. Guess what else she has? MT 100% Fear. g fucking g. About the only way to do it then, is to knock her down to around 50%, and then again, hope to blitz past her like Margaret. The trouble is that Izanami has physical resistance and that HP range is larger. Even before then, she has Terror Voice, and that MT 100% Fear gets old real fast as Cecilia has to constantly spam Castle Wall for Status Lock and that won't last forever.
Oh and just for trolling purposes, Izanami has to get killed last. Otherwise, she uses Thousand Curses and lolgg. Truly this battle is a bitch.
And thus Neph has given and Neph has taken away. Ah wells, it was fun while it lasted.
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I don't think anyone considers Thousand Curses for Izanami anyway? Would they?
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Thousand Curses plot ID can fill a hole with acid and jump into it.
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Indeed.
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Neph, don't feel obligated to buff Firefly on my behalf, like I said this isn't exactly a win the Dungeon team anyway. Only inflicting Game Over on actual Leader death rather than vanilla psuedo-fatal status sounds like it'd be pretty fair anyway.
I added to the Wiki a list of when various FF13 status blockers become legal.
super, Sazh will be piloting the airship transporting the team between floors this run, so it's only 5 people on my team.
Fail for team Tide. Yeah when Tide isn't able to easily cheese with System Chronos locks, he doesn't really have defense buffing, so Izanami + Nyarlie probably blow the team up with MT. Seifer can't set up some cool limit for blitzing without waking up Nyx from Fool. Citan blitz and kill Nyarlie before he does anything is arguably his best bet, but seems chancy. This is assuming Ragu XF doesn't kill him off an Accelerate chain and Tide doesn't run out of Hi-Ethers for Ragu4 or something.
Also, even if Thousand Curses was being enforced... well, Ramza is a heroic young lad with a team of loyal followers ready to follow him to their graves if necessary, similar to Yu, so there's just a heartwarming scene as Raynie etc. all die, then they all come back to life after Ramza raises the Holy Stone up, and then text s c r o l l s r e a l l y s l o w l y as the Chapter ends.
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Beautiful things
You are a gentleman and a scholar.
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I'm having a bad day. So all teams FAIL.
Okay, just Tide fails. gg
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Other teams pass, although looking at Team Magic, he could be in for some trouble in the next two floors. Deis 1's starting magic set isn't spectacular (I think her strongest spell is Fry, the same one Bo starts with) and most of his team is frail or slow or both.
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Well, do keep in mind that Fry -is- OHKO-level damage for a couple floors. It could be worse.
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I doubt it's anywhere near OHKO damage ever, as it itself is still in a (3-PC) average. The absolute best it ever is 2x average, I'd think... probably not even that.
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Well, do keep in mind that Fry -is- OHKO-level damage for a couple floors. It could be worse.
At floor 2, Bo has Fry and Ryu has Bolt Dragon which matches Fry's damage. Nina brings the average down, but not by nearly enough. Deis 1 is pretty mediocre for those 2 floors before her crazy leveling comes in to play.
Edit: Misremembered Thunder Drake's damage. It's 130 not 80. So Deis 1's damage is very mediocre for floor 2/3.
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To the extent that Ryu1's dragons go in the averages, they go in a 3-turn damage average anyway, so cut that figure by a third for the transformation turn.
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To the extent that Ryu1's dragons go in the averages, they go in a 3-turn damage average anyway, so cut that figure by a third for the transformation turn.
I'm hesitant to use a 3 turn average when it comes to dragon forms and the like because unlike situations where characters only have enough resources for a few big attacks, dragon forms are only slowed down on the first turn unless Ryu wants to do some transform/untransform strategy for hp restoration. Even then it's still raises the average. 260 vs. the 240 from Fry.
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They can't attack turn 1 and that's the most important turn in the dungeon or a duel. I do agree with the three-turn average personally. Though of course yes, that makes Fry notably less impressive once it shows up.
Also, idly: having dragons on floor 2 seems weird to me. There's a lot of game before they show up - check the BoF1 boss stat topic and you'll note eleven bosses before you obtain them, over a quarter of the total. Seems a pretty clear thing to start considering on floor 3. Granted, moot for the comments that started this, since the stretch of "Deis damage isn't that great" is probably about as long as suggested, just starts (and ends) later.
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They can't attack turn 1 and that's the most important turn in the dungeon or a duel. I do agree with the three-turn average personally. Though of course yes, that makes Fry notably less impressive once it shows up.
Also, idly: having dragons on floor 2 seems weird to me. There's a lot of game before they show up - check the BoF1 boss stat topic and you'll note eleven bosses before you obtain them, over a quarter of the total. Seems a pretty clear thing to start considering on floor 3. Granted, moot for the comments that started this, since the stretch of "Deis damage isn't that great" is probably about as long as suggested, just starts (and ends) later.
It's a judgement call. BoF is very boss heavy early on and a lot of those dungeons have more than one (Wizard's tower has 3). I think I see floor one ending around when you get Bo and floor two ends around the start of the Auria stuff maybe? Other problems with Deis is that looking at the stat topic, it looks like she starts with both below average speed and HP. Using Meeple's boss notes, the average speed and hp drop between the boss the two bosses where she joins.
Edit: Found a youtube video and she starts with 120 hp to a 170 average. That's pretty bad.
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The earlygame has some pretty long boss-less sections of navigating the map, Winlan Cave, etc... I don't think boss density drops off, and there are certainly several multi-boss dungeons later on (Wisdon, Lab, and the Obelisk). For another way of measuring the game... one guide lists the dragon shrine as 33 of 109 in a walkthrough, another after 4 of 15. If there are dragons on floor 2 it's only a tiny fraction, and for me that's enough of a shift in the game to assign it to a floor break, and 2/7 of the game is a much better fit than 1/7.
Agreed that Deis is frail upon joining (which I'd peg as F4). And honestly she doesn't really come into her all-around goodness until F6 looking at Meeple's notes... she's still lowering the HP average as of Cort and running a 110 damage spell as her best, it's not until Mothro that she's flinging BoltX and presumably has good HP. There's not too much game left after Mothro... certainly less than precedes the first dragon forms, so yeah, we're looking at around two floors here.
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I agree with DHE FWIW, there is a lot of BoF1 before Ryu gets a dragon. Also I definitely squint at ignoring Ryu's transform turn in the damage averages - I could see perhaps a 4 or 5 turn average which would downplay it more, but skipping it is weird. I'd squint more but BoF1 is already a game where the damage average is a bit lower than it "should" be since in-game Ryu / Bleu have to compete against soul-devouring MegaKarn, not duel Karn + lategame scrubs.
I'd also be tempted to take Deis at join time and scale her against that party, which means Karn's meh damage is in the average as well. Karn & Nina drag the average down, Ryu1 only gets his dragons on floor3 and they're still not THAT broken yet and have their damage cut by a third... she's still pretty darn awesome.
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I'd also be tempted to take Deis at join time and scale her against that party, which means Karn's meh damage is in the average as well. Karn & Nina drag the average down, Ryu1 only gets his dragons on floor3 and they're still not THAT broken yet and have their damage cut by a third... she's still pretty darn awesome.
When you get her, physicals are starting to catch up to the early spells Ox and Karn cancel each other out pretty much and probably keep the damage average in that 70-80 area. If you compare her to the party when she joins than she's slow and gets 2HKOed by average. Her damage might be above average, but not by much and it's like that until floor 4 or 5. Thinking on it, I'd probably be alright with her dropping a half point because I didn't realize her start was so bad.
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First of congrats to Tide for getting this far. It's been a fun team to watch =)
I'm willing to buy the analysis for the first four fights. The last ... well I'm going to assume we call in all our favours to the RNG gods and they listen :P With the blessing of the RNG god all goes exactly right for the team every single round with bonuses (and RNG is against the enemies) Cecelia Status Lock, Raynie MP regen and Citan speed speed speed with Haste Haste Haste for everybody saves the day :P Surely it's not impossible.
Everyone vs Dungeon~
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Night Gown and Ragu4 sed no. =(
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=(
They aren't afraid of the power of ... Lalala the Watchers sing!?~
I would be *nodnod* ~
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When you're 600% average speed and nearly OHKO both durabilities off that durability and evade, you don't fear anything short of Blue.
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Team Tide vs. The Dungeon
If Tide doesn't see himself even possibly winning this... Who am I to argue? Besides, I don't know these bosses well enough to even guess on an alternative strategy.
Team superaielman vs. The Dungeon
Jo'ou's arguments seem solid enough to me.
Team Snow vs. The Dungeon
Team Magic vs. The Dungeon
It's Floor freaking 1. You have to TRY to lose here.
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/me actually bothers to run some by-the-head numbers to see how Tide fares against Ragu4.
/me realizes Ragu somehow instadoubles BC Citan and pretty much OHKOs both revivers no questions asked.
Yeah, that's -so- not happening.
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Jo'ou: Well, no, because Tide has 2 initiative rounds to buff while Ragu spams his move command. Unless you're interpreting this as "Ragu skips 2 turns" which probably isn't enough to stop the pasta. But if Ragu were to wait for unhasted Raynie to get 2 turns before going berserk, then the team is pretty well all hasted by then.
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Oooh right, there's that grace period. Granted, hasting them means... uh... Ragu "only" quadra/triple-turns non-Citan people (Ceci doesn't even have Slow Down? Eeeew) and Citan can't even -hit- him while they trigger counters right and left. How the heck is he supposed to plow through that?
EDIT: I'd also consider those turns FFX-initiative style, which helps them in general. But still, that's just um. Ragu's got a lot of durability (may well be something like over 5x PC HP after defenses? Off Tide's numbers, he's 3.7x PC HP off the health score alone under my scaling, though an arbitrary average 10k higher leads to something like 2.7x PC HP) and Tide has issues making the damage stick there, none of his buffs are remotely good enough to fend off that level of pressure.
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Very, very, very slowly. If Team Tide plays pure defense, then 700% Speed Citan can counter every Ragu hit with his own healing, which is... not that great and might not stave off a 2HKO through Ragu attack Cecilia -> Citan heal -> Ragu attack Cecilia when nobody else gets turns. But okay, let's assume Ramza somehow keeps FFT Protect up constantly on everyone despite its miss chance so Citan can keep up. When not casting Protect, Ramza needs to be spamming Hi-Ethers in Citan's direction, and Citan needs to recast his Hastes aggressively. I think it's plausible that Tide might stay afloat. Of course attacking into counters occasionally makes this scary. This is why I say non-sarcastically that Ramza running out of Hi-ethers is a threat.
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Very, very, very slowly. If Team Tide plays pure defense, then 700% Speed Citan can counter every Ragu hit with his own healing, which is... not that great and might not stave off a 2HKO through Ragu attack Cecilia -> Citan heal -> Ragu attack Cecilia when nobody else gets turns. But okay, let's assume Ramza somehow keeps FFT Protect up constantly on everyone despite its miss chance so Citan can keep up. When not casting Protect, Ramza needs to be spamming Hi-Ethers in Citan's direction, and Citan needs to recast his Hastes aggressively. I think it's plausible that Tide might stay afloat. Of course attacking into counters occasionally makes this scary. This is why I say non-sarcastically that Ramza running out of Hi-ethers is a threat.
Ramza doesn't have Hi-Ethers. Tide has Ramza set with Time and White Magic.
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Iunno. This honestly ignores Ragu 2HKOs her through Shell -and- Protect and insta-triples her (Ceci HP: it be junk and defensive ACF stats be junk, and I'm totally taking aftergame Cecilia against Zed in the averages, which does her no favors). Dorothy revival is slow -and- can miss in this setup, since he's not even equipped with Item. That's really bad.
EDIT: Actually, since your analysis also relied on Hi-Ethers, doesn't this kinda make the attrition fighting even harder? Now the only MP restoration source the party has is... Raynie Mana Regen. Taking five turns to regenerate as much as a couple Hi-Ethers while fending off Ragu smash, that's not gonna work.
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Tide definitely has his work cut out for him, for one ACF Ragu has absolutely insane durability before buffs/fragile come into play. (Jacks Laser Silhouette flat out tinks on him unbuffed as an example), half the fight comes down to praying he doesn't spam dispel to often because when he does it literally means you have to spend 2-3 rounds rebuffing before you can even continue to touch him again. Considering the other half of the fight is mostly making sure you always keep Anti Magic Zone up to prevent random free quinta turn Paradigm Pollutions from flat out wiping the party, the fight is a lot more gruesome then the stat topic makes it appear. ACF Ragu may very well be able to just spam Dispel and rely on his durability to last long enough that he eventually gets a quad or quinta turn of mt death spammage.
Ragu 4 has been covered enough
XF Ragu, is not only durable and fast, but actually regains life if he chooses to spam his ohko physical, which also has a 33% chance to crit for double, if it does crit, also gives him a free turn, which coupled with Accelerate, means there is a very good chance for him to flat out get a massive free turn streak of death.
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Oooh right, there's that grace period. Granted, hasting them means... uh... Ragu "only" quadra/triple-turns non-Citan people (Ceci doesn't even have Slow Down? Eeeew) and Citan can't even -hit- him while they trigger counters right and left. How the heck is he supposed to plow through that?
EDIT: I'd also consider those turns FFX-initiative style, which helps them in general. But still, that's just um. Ragu's got a lot of durability (may well be something like over 5x PC HP after defenses? Off Tide's numbers, he's 3.7x PC HP off the health score alone under my scaling, though an arbitrary average 10k higher leads to something like 2.7x PC HP) and Tide has issues making the damage stick there, none of his buffs are remotely good enough to fend off that level of pressure.
And that durability is scaling HP down, which isn't really necessary against full casts!
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And that durability is scaling HP down, which isn't really necessary against full casts!
In practice, it kinda is. A pretty considerable deal of the fights with bosses in the Dungeon starts getting inviable pretty fast as soon as floor 3 without HP scaling. I know bosses being unscaled used to be an enforced-ish thing in the early Dungeon, but yeah.
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Well, makes it murderous here. Most of the other solo bosses tend to be really bad scaled down though (I always forget for those F3 bosses! But since on average they can be taken down with a round of attacks without scaling, they have issues).
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Yeah there's just too big a respect gap for unscaled vs. scaled, and characters in the Dungeon are their DL forms by default. Stuff from previous floors like FF4DS Rubicante + support.... unscaled, he can be blitzed (though it's not easy, he's got ~1.5 PCHP or so but is below average speed) to avoid his super-inferno of doom. With unscaled HP, blitzing just isn't an option. The Floor 1 bosses become roadblocks for teams with meh offense too, actually, Lich can go on a HOLD spree more often.
Also on second thought I may have undersold Raynie's MP regen. I forget, does it work based on max MP and trigger every turn of the target? If so, as long as Raynie occasionally makes her own MP regenerate, that can keep Citan burning EP left & right to attempt to keep Ragu4 under control. Not that it really matters for reasons already noted.
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It regens something like 7 MP (not based on max MP) per character turn that triggers on that PC's go, yes. Raynie's MP regen is actually a neat Dungeon option when you have stall-friendly fights to restore MP, since it gives you a sustainable long-term regening option, though very, very, verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry slow. Of course, Ragu and stall-friendly are like oil and water. >_>
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Yeah there's just too big a respect gap for unscaled vs. scaled, and characters in the Dungeon are their DL forms by default. Stuff from previous floors like FF4DS Rubicante + support.... unscaled, he can be blitzed (though it's not easy, he's got ~1.5 PCHP or so but is below average speed) to avoid his super-inferno of doom. With unscaled HP, blitzing just isn't an option. The Floor 1 bosses become roadblocks for teams with meh offense too, actually, Lich can go on a HOLD spree more often.
Non-solo bosses get scaled down HP. It's the floor 3 ST floor, and the Floor 8? boss string where it really matters.
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Apart from Ragu talk, I'd like to add my vote for Team Super passing.