The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => Tournaments => Topic started by: Cmdr_King on October 15, 2012, 06:37:27 AM
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Bluelike
Gawn Brawdia (Wild ARMs 4) vs Revya (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Cloud Strife (Final Fantasy VII)- Phoenix+Final Attack, E.Skills. Mystile, Ribbon. vs Brahman (Digital Devil Saga 2)
Godlike
Kusuha Mizuha (Super Robot Taisen: Original Generation)- SP Regen, SP Up +9, Prevail L9, Solar Panel vs Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII)- Sneak Attack+Shield, Master Magic+Counter, MP Up. Mystile, Ribbon.
Virginia Maxwell (Wild ARMs 3)- All mediums. May not alter mediums mid-battle. vs Adult Mags (Wild ARMs 4)
Blue (SaGa Frontier)- Raised as a Gunner (see Emelia for rough stats). May not set Tower, Overdrive, or Stasis Rune. vs Isolde Schelling (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis)
Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV) vs Dr. Psyche (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Short Voting Form
Bluelike
Gawn (WA4) vs Revya (SN)
Cloud (FFVII) vs Brahman (DDS2)
Godlike
Kusuha (OG1) vs Cait (FFVII)
Ginny (WA3) vs Adult Mags (WA4)
Blue (SaGa) vs Isolde (MK1)
Fou (BoFIV) vs Dr. Psyche (MMXCM)
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Ginny (WA3) vs Adult Mags (WA4) - Ginny, being ever the pure hearted maiden, totally believes in romantic relationships based on interest alone or some such. So, seeing her party members on the sidelines Lusting over the magazines, her Jaw drops in astonishment. After the brief period, the surprise quickly turns into a Fiery Rage and she summon nukes the WA4 mags in a perfect reenactment in how the WA3 mag fight goes down. She then slaps the party, and begins to lecture everyone (mostly Gallows) how women should be appreciated for their personalities etc etc etc.
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Cloud (FFVII) vs Brahman (DDS2) - I don't think Cloud has a good way around Eternal Zero? He can probably throw out Limits quite easily by healing up every turn, but that only works for the first two forms, since they're the ones that can't kill him in one rush. After that, he's relying on... uh.. I think physicals. Yeaaah, he's fucked.
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Bluelike
Gawn (WA4) vs Revya (SN) - EDIT: Sure. If -Djinn-, who played with and worked on SN mechanics for as long as he did, makes a strong argument against Revya winning...
Cloud (FFVII) vs Brahman (DDS2) - EDIT: WAIT Final Attack cheese totally owns Brahman. It undoes the debuffs and the individual forms still -blow- for durability. Forget that shit. *Thwaps Yoshiken with a stylus.*
Godlike
Kusuha (OG1) vs Cait (FFVII) - Shield and cheese make a mockery of everything Kusuha stands for. For lulz, Cait could stall with Barrier and healing until Counter Master Materia lands something like Death.
Ginny (WA3) vs Adult Mags (WA4) - Ginny equips Lust Jaw, Aqua Wisp and Fiery Rage, sets up maxed Weakness and Moor Gault burns the questionable reading material to a charming crisp.
Blue (SaGa) vs Isolde (MK1) - EDIT2: See below. If you convince me Grand Gaze isn't PsychoPrisonable, though, this vote changes again -instantly-.
Fou (BoFIV) vs Dr. Psyche (MMXCM) - NEEDLE SHOWER WILL SPOIL FOU-LU WITH ALL ITS MIGHT um
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Pretty sure Brahman doesn't run on MP, although there's no real way of telling. Also, Eternal Zero hits damage/defences/accuracy/evasion, so the Mystile evasion boost probably won't mean too much after Form 3 gets a turn.
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Hence "the first question is what the match hinges on".
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Kusuha (OG1) vs Cait (FFVII) - Outcheeses.
Fou (BoFIV) vs Dr. Psyche (MMXCM) - Remember kids, Needle Shower makes Dr. Psyche a Fou-lu slayer.
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No vote on the anti-pornography brigade match? =(
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Hm. Does Mana Khemia class debuffs as status? If he can buy himself time to set up, he does have LightSword, PsychicPrison and ShadowServant for various shenanigans. LightSword Deflect gives him a fighting chance in the Bunker Pillar stages, and it seems like PsychicPrison would keep Ancient Secret from triggering, so if he can debuff Isolde speed (via TimeEclipse) he can use ShadowServant to stay safe while setting all this up to some extent (obviously time cards make this less effective, but still better than nothing). Granted, even if all this does work, the proposed Blue build only had like 60 JP so he might not have the resources to make it work?
Just throwin' ideas out.
Edit: Blue wasn't meant to be built ONLY as a gunner in the original build, just primarily as one. Laggy's notes suggested around 60 JP, not the 20 you'd get if he only used Guns ever.
Ah, there we are. "Blue, Secret Service Agent (SaGa) - Blue without the infinite JP spells (Tower, OverDrive, StasisRune) set, and raised as a gunner instead of a mage. (Use Emelia's stats, double PSY/WIL/INT and 80-90 JP or so.)"
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Bunker Pillar, like 100% of Isolde's skillset, is -magic-, for starters. Don't see how LightSword helps against that bullshit. For speed debuffing, Isolde is vulnerable to MK's defense down debuff, but she immunes Slow, and things can immune or resist debuffs in SF unless I'm horribly mistaken - so, YMMV on that. Psychic Prison is also not a great idea against timed cards - Ancient Secret has three spells being cast, I'd only see that working against one, and multihitting/timed cards lulz pretty bad against Shadow Servant to boot.
EDIT: I -was- considering Blue as having skillset shenanigans and better than lololol JP. Problem is all his damage is inferior to BoundShot, and as far as I can see, only chipping and plowing with BoundShot even remotely gives him a chance, since otherwise he's ingloriously ramming into Isolde's near 3x PC HP mdur and he's in deep as soon as Isolde starts dropping Grand Gazes and their odds of inflicting the horrors of MK Slow along with damage that chips away at him no strings attached. EDIT: Wait, he immunes Grand Gaze! But man, that does his durability no good and she can still Silence -and- damage him. And Ancient Secret coming up, as before, spells doom even before Bunker Pillar insanity.
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This analysis is dependent on Ancient Secret itself being a spell that PsychicPrison could interrupt, yeah. The PCs have a similar skill in Overrealm, is essentially a spell that lets you take three uninterrupted turns, so I just figured Ancient Secret was similar. If that's not how it works the whole thing falls apart to be sure.
For some reason I remember Bunker Pillar running into the blocking skills. Could mean anything from bad memory to MK1 having a magic blocker I'm forgetting about. That said, did forget about ShadowServant working per-hit rather than per-attack, so it's probably not even worth setting (barring trying to wrangle a double turn I guess).
And yeah, I'm more thinking of ways for him to survive for more BoundShots, he needs the ITD to stand a chance because she can basically kill him at any time if his shenanigans let her actually hit him. Equally dangerous, if he fucks around too long during her opening stages she'll nail him with Silence anyway.
He really probably can't win this, but looking for ways with skillsets this outrageous is fun.
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Yeah, it is fun. I think Blue can try for a long time to try to keep Isolde from killing him, but I can't see a way in which he can actually -stop her from getting a turn- to get her mass pressure bullshit started. If the pressure from other sources wasn't enough, holy -fuck- he doesn't like Break looming either.
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For some reason I remember Bunker Pillar running into the blocking skills. Could mean anything from bad memory to MK1 having a magic blocker I'm forgetting about. That said, did forget about ShadowServant working per-hit rather than per-attack, so it's probably not even worth setting (barring trying to wrangle a double turn I guess).
Hm. I -know- for sure MK2 has a Magic Blocker, but not sure if that applies to MK1. I believe Tal's notes peg BP as magic, which I'd readily buy because everything else she has is magic - I'm not sure she even has a physical.
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It's possible that didn't actually happen and I'm thinking of something else entirely. And it's pretty easy to tell if something's physical because Pamela >.> So I dunno, might just be me failing at remembering things.
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No vote on the anti-pornography brigade match? =(
That may possibly have required me doing that fight.
(for all that it seems incredibly clear-cut in Ginny's favor)
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Bluelike
Gawn Brawdia (Wild ARMs 4) vs Revya (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) - I think I see Gawn's attacks as taking out a whole squad, since I'm sure he can target the leader. This actually means that Revya's limit of ONLY eight squads of mobs isn't enough... christ. >.>;;
Cloud Strife (Final Fantasy VII)- Phoenix+Final Attack, E.Skills. Mystile, Ribbon. vs Brahman (Digital Devil Saga 2) - Normally I don't have high boss respect, but I do give them HP buffers.
Godlike
Kusuha Mizuha (Super Robot Taisen: Original Generation)- SP Regen, SP Up +9, Prevail L9, Solar Panel vs Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII)- Sneak Attack+Shield, Master Magic+Counter, MP Up. Mystile, Ribbon.
Virginia Maxwell (Wild ARMs 3)- All mediums. May not alter mediums mid-battle. vs Adult Mags (Wild ARMs 4) - I'm only okay with this anti-pornography stance because Ginny is cool.
Blue (SaGa Frontier)- Raised as a Gunner (see Emelia for rough stats). May not set Tower, Overdrive, or Stasis Rune. vs Isolde Schelling (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis) - Doesn't Blue have Auto-Life spamming at his disposal? That should be good enough to debuff Isolde and setup a damage chain, even without Overdrive/Tower cheese.
Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV) vs Dr. Psyche (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
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Regarding Blue/Isolde... Nail Blow is physical, not that this matters much because it's pretty weak. Reviva is out though... Isolde's offence centres around a timed card barrage, so it's not limited by her turns and should punch through auto-revive pretty effectively.
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Bluelike
Gawn Brawdia (Wild ARMs 4) vs Revya (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) - I think I see Gawn's attacks as taking out a whole squad, since I'm sure he can target the leader. This actually means that Revya's limit of ONLY eight squads of mobs isn't enough... christ. >.>;;
Can Revya's squads outspeed Gawn, though? That's the main question, since she gets initiative to summon all her squads and they can run him out of bullets near-immediately. Otherwise, I agree with targetting leader => lololol (particularly, I see Revya dying as completely owning all the squads, since Revya death = game over in-game).
EDIT: Regarding Blue/Isolde, the Auto-Life strategy is also limited by Blue's LP, possibly moreso than his JP.
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Revya's squads can potentially get initiative turns if you allow Decors (consumable equipment, so probably not DL-legal, though Revya's already-questionable Bluelike status means it's a gray area). Even without Decors though, Squads use their Leader's ACT stat to determine their turn speed. Revya just has to use Archer or Thief leaders to get fast Squads, though I don't know how fast they need to be to outspeed Gawn and while I could look it up... :lazy:
Re: Blue/Reviva - how good is Reviva's autolife? Is it full-healing? I think that pretty much determines whether or not Isolde's timed cards will slaughter that strategy. I thought it was pretty good healing, and I'm betting he can rack up enough damage on Isolde before he runs out of LP. Though... his JP/WP may be more of an issue. At least he's primarily using one resource for Gun damage and the other resource for Reviva, though!
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Well, he has like 6LP. So, if she downs him six times, it's lights out, and she's OHKOing him right and left if he drops her into Ancient Secret phase (which he just can't dodge, it's 75% HP range). To boot, if he drops her into Bunker Pillar (50% HP), he autoloses. The recharge on that move turns her into a WA4 boss and 100% break means he doesn't ever get a turn again. And she like breaks in two shots with most of her stuff...
EDIT: To put it bluntly: I don't think he can chip her into a range where he can KO her before Ancient Secret kicks in. And if he opens with BoundShot and it ITDs, depending on your Isolde HP respect (pending to the lower end), he drops her -straight- into Bunker Pillar and he dies.
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HOLY FUCK I JUST REALIZED. When you Shadow Servant BoundShot, does it make two separate checks for the ITD damage or just one? That could actually mean Blue can win 66% of the time on a double-turn of Psychic Prison spamming => Shadow Servant => BoundShot on a double, which -would- one-shot Isolde - which would likely swing my vote. Otherwise, the odds are probably still below that magic "makes me change my vote" threshold and #swag. One ITD BoundShot+normal BoundShot won't kill Isolde -and- will leave her well into Pile Bunker bullshit madness.
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Wouldn't the squads be able to force Gawn to waste bullets on counters?
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correct, but if Revya can't make him waste 11 bullets, he gets a turn and OHKOs her. And given how both WA4 and SN usually work, regardless of the content of the squads, he'd only use one bullet to counter a squad. So Revya needs either to be able to summon 10 squads (apparently she gets 8) or some portion of them need to lap Gawn. Who has about 130% speed.
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I can't claim to know much about the match-up, but what skill spread does Blue need to equip to not instantly lose?
As far as I can figure for offense...
TwoGun
Quickdraw
!Boundshot
!ShadowServant
Outside of that, he might also need
!Lightsword - extra stats and blocks some attacks as well. Good for survivability.
!Timeleap or !PsychicPrison - Timeleap might be the more viable option here, since PsychicPrison also causes the recoil damage when it's broken. Too much of that would be fatal for Blue, so. In any case, !PsychicPrison is also twice as expensive as !Timeleap
!Vortex - It has an argument to deal with Timed Card nonsense if Isolde gets too many of them going. It also removes Blue's buffs as well though, so it's of questionable use.
!StarlightHeal - Healing. 'Nuff said.
That's what I can think of for now. Did I miss/overlook anything else?
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Holy crap I forgot he can only set seven skills at a time. >_> Anyhow, looking at a glance: LightSword is useless there, the boost to durability is very fringe and nothing scary Isolde does is physical. TimeLeap is useless, he's never lapping Isolde that way, since all it does is reset her CTB gauge. Mana Khemia's dispel doesn't cover timed cards, so Vortex is useless (the argument doesn't favor the dispel). StarlightHeal is a waste of time because it's not full healing, he's going for Reviva instead if he bothers healing. The way to victory probably lies in Psychic Prison => Shadow Servant => BoundShot one-rounding if it happens -at all-.
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Holy crap I forgot he can only set seven skills at a time. >_>
Since Blue's a Human, he gets 8 slots, but it's probably irrelevant anyway.
TimeLeap is useless, he's never lapping Isolde that way, since all it does is reset her CTB gauge.
Depends on how you see it working. Some interpretations could mean to just say that if Blue is faster, it just makes her skip her next turn.
Mana Khemia's dispel doesn't cover timed cards, so Vortex is useless (the argument doesn't favor the dispel).
Another interp call, since Vortex technically gets field effects in its home game (I'm told it works against RingLord's Revolution9 if you bring Kylin with you), it at least has an argument to catch other field effect things like time cards and just saying that MK Dispel isn't as broad. I can see this argument going both ways, at least. EDIT: I've been known to be wrong several times.
StarlightHeal is a waste of time because it's not full healing, he's going for Reviva instead if he bothers healing. The way to victory probably lies in Psychic Prison => Shadow Servant => BoundShot one-rounding if it happens -at all-.
I can see this making sense.
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Just to be clear, Vortex does not get field effects (LightShift, DarkShift, ECM). Revolution9 isn't a field effect, it is a positive status placed on MasterRing. DarkSphere's dispel also gets rid of it, and that's single-target. (Killing her, if that did not end the battle, would also get rid of the effect.)
Depends on how you see it working. Some interpretations could mean to just say that if Blue is faster, it just makes her skip her next turn.
Such interpretations would allow anyone faster with TimeLeap to gain turns on his or her opponent, which seems to considerably inflate what the move does, since it can't actually be used for that in-game. The view is still valid enough but I'd be squeamish about it for that reason; Snow's is more palatable to me.
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Noting that I have no idea how Isolde works:
- Seconding NEB's views on TimeLeap here, it's awesome in a party setting but you can never actually use it to get doubleturns in-game, so I kind of find that a bit questionable to allow here.
- TimeEclipse does allow for some obscene QUI stat debuffing, and it's worth noting that stat downs and status in SaGa are clearly segregated. That said, some bosses and enemies do seem to resist/immune stat downs as well (this is not well documented, shock shock).
- PsychicPrison's lashback damage (BackFire) is ITD, so while Blue doesn't want to hit Isolde's danger HP point, he can certainly chip her down to it if it at all makes a powered-up ITD BoundShot able to kill from that point. (He has other options like Reviva if he wants to stall for a doubleturn without doing damage.)
- How badly does Isolde kill Blue from a single attack? SoulRune raises all stats by 50% with quite a meaningful impact, so if it reduces the margin from OHKO to not-OHKO it ups his rate to double and damage significantly (plus status resist odds, yadda yadda). Same question goes for Silence odds on one hit.
- Blue's speed is around 91 to a 77 average sans any buffing, for people who wanted exact figures.
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Noting that I have no idea how Isolde works:
- TimeEclipse does allow for some obscene QUI stat debuffing, and it's worth noting that stat downs and status in SaGa are clearly segregated. That said, some bosses and enemies do seem to resist/immune stat downs as well (this is not well documented, shock shock).
If TimeEclipse works on Isolde, I think Blue has the match in the bag because it allows for tripleturns to happen. This is kinda questionable but reasonably arguable, of course, and I detailed why before.
- How badly does Isolde kill Blue from a single attack? SoulRune raises all stats by 50% with quite a meaningful impact, so if it reduces the margin from OHKO to not-OHKO it ups his rate to double and damage significantly (plus status resist odds, yadda yadda). Same question goes for Silence odds on one hit.
The main matter is how much Isolde's damage piles up as he lets her get turns. She doesn't OHKO him straight off in a single, but she piles up timed cards that inflict damage and go off independently from her own turns that pile up pretty brutally along with adding up to break, which makes Blue lose turns and suffer ITD increased damage if he suffers damage while he's stunned (Grand Gaze should be a Break 2HKO, and she can pile multiple of them - and it can inflict Slow on him, which makes him instantly lose, that makes people 1/3 average speed). Also, I actually looked up and Grand Gaze doesn't -actually- have an element attached to it. SoulRune is an interesting point, since it -should- lower her odds of statusing (MK magical status -does- check MDef). The issue I see with using SoulRune, though, is that it gives her a free turn to get started if PP spamming gets her into 75% HP range, and even at full HP, Grand Gaze bullshit getting started is very dangerous - not to mention she can also debuff his MDef with perfect odds while still inflicting damage, and she should 2HKO post-Baxim Bite with a single Grand Gaze card. Still feel Blue's best bet is trying to get off BoundShot Shadow Servant while disallowing Isolde from even a single turn, since the independence of Isolde's pressure is pretty dangerous to Blue, who has no real answer to timed cards in the longer term.
EDIT: And after looking it up further, ShadowServant just straight doubles damage. Yeah, think that strategy works as long as you see at least Grand Gaze being hit by Psychic Prison, which I'm willing to buy. Don't think I'd see it dealing damage (no indication that MK enemies even -use- SP? Yeah. There's SP draining in-game on both ends, but enemies just have infinite SP pools from all I can gather from empiric experience), but thinking the 66% threshold still works for now.
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Yes, ShadowServant doubles the output, you can notice it in-game because rather than getting a multihit the game actually doesn't show the damage figure until after the ShadowServant finishes duplicating the action (so an SS'd MWB would be like 5000 as opposed to 2500 x2).
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So uh there's like five votes right now and I should have bumped this yesterday. Oops, going 'til tomorrow then.
Bluelike
Gawn (WA4) vs Revya (SN)- Yeah Revya needs some sort of ability to lap Gawn here if she can only summon 8 rooms. And uh no.
Cloud (FFVII) vs Brahman (DDS2)- My instinct is that ITD is the crucial edge cloud needs, thanks to dying resetting his debuffs. Lets him get around Brahman's buffs.
Godlike
Kusuha (OG1) vs Cait (FFVII)
Ginny (WA3) vs Adult Mags (WA4)- Hm. Yeah I guess a turn 1 summon is plenty here.
Blue (SaGa) vs Isolde (MK1)
Fou (BoFIV) vs Dr. Psyche (MMXCM)
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re: Cloud/Brahman: I think the issue with Eternal Zero is that Cloud can't wall it, nothing else. Every time Brahman gets a turn that can include Eternal Zero, Cloud is losing a Final Attack use, and I don't think the durability on those last forms is quite so bad to allow Cloud to OHKO them.
*checks* Yeaaaah, no. The forms are still above PCHP to me and there is no way Cloud is doing that much unless he hits Limits, and the whole Final Attack thing kills -that- too.
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Gawn (WA4) vs Revya (SN)
Cloud (FFVII) vs Brahman (DDS2)
Kusuha (OG1) vs Cait (FFVII)
Ginny (WA3) vs Adult Mags (WA4)
Blue (SaGa) vs Isolde (MK1)
Fou (BoFIV) vs Dr. Psyche (MMXCM)
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Bluelike
Gawn Brawdia (Wild ARMs 4) vs Revya (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Cloud Strife (Final Fantasy VII)- Phoenix+Final Attack, E.Skills. Mystile, Ribbon. vs Brahman (Digital Devil Saga 2)
Godlike
Kusuha Mizuha (Super Robot Taisen: Original Generation)- SP Regen, SP Up +9, Prevail L9, Solar Panel vs Cait Sith (Final Fantasy VII)- Sneak Attack+Shield, Master Magic+Counter, MP Up. Mystile, Ribbon.
Virginia Maxwell (Wild ARMs 3)- All mediums. May not alter mediums mid-battle. vs Adult Mags (Wild ARMs 4)
Blue (SaGa Frontier)- Raised as a Gunner (see Emelia for rough stats). May not set Tower, Overdrive, or Stasis Rune. vs Isolde Schelling (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis): Break -> rape. No tripleturns from a TB speed system.
Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV) vs Dr. Psyche (Mega Man X: Command Mission): Just pretend it's Yuna and be satisfied with the disembowling.
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Short Voting Form
Bluelike
Cloud (FFVII) vs Brahman (DDS2): Okay so this is the week's actually interesting match. Suku's effect on evade isn't very pronounced so Mystile is probably still at least somewhat intact... possibly enough to not die from Light x4? And Cloud needs to be killed six times, so even if he only 2HKOs each form and 4HKOs the last (meaning Brahman gets eight Eternal Zero turns), he just needs to dodge enough to 3 out of 8, which I bet he does. And then finally I let damage bleed through the buffer to a limited extent so whatever, Cloud Omnislashes form 2.
Godlike
Kusuha (OG1) vs Cait (FFVII): Shield!
Ginny (WA3) vs Adult Mags (WA4): Fire.
Blue (SaGa) vs Isolde (MK1): Timed card rampage.
Fou (BoFIV) vs Dr. Psyche (MMXCM): Somehow survives Needle Shower spoiling.
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Bluelike
Gawn (WA4)- iiiii vs Revya (SN)
Cloud (FFVII)- iii vs Brahman (DDS2)- iiii
Godlike
Kusuha (OG1) vs Cait (FFVII)- iiiii
Ginny (WA3)- iiiii vs Adult Mags (WA4)- i
Blue (SaGa)- iiii vs Isolde (MK1)- ii
Fou (BoFIV)- iiiiii vs Dr. Psyche (MMXCM)
Almost back on track. Update momentarily.