The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => Tournaments => Topic started by: SnowFire on June 12, 2013, 05:55:56 AM
-
So, since Tourney of Champions & Pokemon are both finishing up, and CK said he wouldn't be running a new tourney 'till after DLCon... two random thoughts intersected in my head recently.
A) Heavy is my favorite division, and I imagine that's true for a decent number of other people as well. (Lots of fun characters there, lots of power without there being too much total bullshit.) For similar reasons, I like a lot of Low Godlikes too, and always thought it was too bad that various cool characters who upgraded there are basically bait against some of the more impressive hax there they can meet in the first round.
B) Division boundaries are totally arbitrary. It's pretty easy to imagine an alternate DL that drew the dividing lines elsewhere, or that had only 3 divisions, or 5. A "bad Middle" could easily have been an excellent Light, had alternate-Light expanded to the bottom half of Middle (and possibly chopped out Puny?!).
So yeah, this'll largely be a bog-standard CKDL tourney for the most part, except that the divisions will be shifted by a half-step with the focus on Heavy. There'll be a division with High Middle + Low Heavy, a division with High Heavy + Low Godlike, and then a smaller tourney-of-champions esque division for High Godlikes. Basically just chop each division in half, so characters near the "middle" of the division are the new borderliners, and characters who were once on the edge upgrading & downgrading between 'em are in the center. To use a name better than "Alternate Middle," I'll use the invented terms Heroes, Demigods, Divinities (Respectively: High Middles + Low Heavy, High Heavy + Low Godlike, High Godlike).
Rules:
1) Use the CKDL Ranked List (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,6015.0.html). Any nomination must have a stat topic entry, though, of course.
2) Nominate up to 4 characters in Heroes & Demigods. Nominate up to 2 characters in Divinities.
3) You may additionally nominate 1 unranked character*, total, as an extra to one of the 3 divisions. For example, it'd be legal to nominate 4 Heroes, 5 Demigods, & 2 Divinities if the unranked character was a Demigod. (But not 5/5/3.) Use common sense. Stat topic entry still required, of course.
4) If any character is nominated by more than 1 person, they automatically get in. I'll randomly roll the rest.
I'll try and get most of the nominated characters in; there'll be a 32 / 32 / 16 split, if the nomination amounts are as usual (it's not actually a larger tourney since we're just doing Heavy basically, 'cept for the Divinity bonus). If turnout is small it'll be 16/16/8.
* Usual disclaimer that I reserve the right to zot any nominations (matters more for unranked obscura characters) though hopefully that won't happen.
-
For those who are curious:
The median of Godlike is 4.68
The median of Heavy is 3.99
I strongly, strongly recommend checking your noms and seeing if they fall below the correct threshold if nomming for Demigods and Heroes (or if they don't, at least be fairly confident that they belong below it, since actual DL numeric rankings aren't perfect of course). I think for this tournament to be successful it's important not to have people misranked, and since we aren't too familiar with these division borders people may not have an intuitive idea where the borders are without checking!
(I like this tournament idea, by the way. Noms to come after some thought~)
-
Yeah, please ask if you're not sure about a ranking, or if you're not sure about someone else's guess for neo-borderliners. Including mine! I'll throw mine out now as hopefully a vague template.... (also, link to the old DL rankings for the lazy: http://www.rpgdl.com/tournament/rankings.php?mode=char_game&order=ASC . Take with a large grain of salt, though.)
Heroes
Marle (CT), Eruca (RH), Nepheene (FEs), Eiko (FF9)
Marle went back & forth from Middle to Heavy IIRC, she seems pretty classic.
I was semi-tempted to add Trails Joshua as my unranked pick since he really does straddle the border, but went instead for...
Demigods
Raquel (WA4), Fang (FF13), Kary (FF1), Legretta (TotA), Lucina (FE:A)
...Lucina. Also, a bunch of deadly ladies in both Heroes & Demigods? Kind of accidental theme, but sure, I'll run with it. (EDIT: Eh, let's do Kary rather than Celia.)
Divinities
Shinryuu (FF5), Orphan (FF13)
Two bosses I ran the stat topic for, I'm biased. Both are a little too good for Godlike arguably and I'd be nervous about nomming 'em for vanilla CKDL, but pretty sure that with all High Godlikes they're fair game.
-
Divinities
XORN!!, Patron God of Emo (Grandia III)
Lady, Patron Goddess of Stoicism (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)
Demi-Gods
Raquel Applegate (Wild ARMs 4)
Jowy Atreides (Suikoden II)
Wakka (Final Fantasy X)
Levin Brenton (Wild ARMs XF)
Heroes
Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2)
Cloud (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Gardevoir (Pokémon Gen 3)
Rose (Legend of Dragoon)
*Etward Dysler (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy)*
-
I'm really really fuzzy on rankings so this will likely need some finetuning.
Heroes
Momo (Breath of Fire 3)
Lilka Eleniak (Wild Arms 2)
Kyra Tierny (Phantasy Star 4)
Nina Windia (Breath of Fire 1)
I'll also be applying my unranked nomination in Heroes to bring you none other than....
Reimu Hakurei (Labyrinth of Touhou - http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_Reimu)
Demigods
Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest 8)
Beatrix (Final Fantasy 9)
Altima (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Gades (Lufia series)
Divinities
Dark Force/Falz/whathaveyou (Phantasy Star series)
Luca Blight (Suikoden 2)
-
CK, did you mean to put Et in the Middle/Heavy division (Considering how many insta act turns she gets on average)?
-
*shrug* Et's not a great Heavy. She really struggles to put enemies down before they get a turn and burns all her resources doing it, in addition to MK2 missing some key status, plus Et being one dimensional damage-wise.
-
Hmm, maybe it depends on how good MK 2 speed turn out turn 1. Because if it's arguable as good, she can pump out a lot quickly.
Et can block ID with an armor (at a speed loss) and I believe that MK 2 has a general status blocker beyond that.
ID weapon is always a back up against physical walls. Speed is what makes or breaks her though.
-
Heroes:
Nina Wyndia (Breath of Fire)
Ness (Earthbound) Poo (Earthbound)
Freya Crescent (Final Fantasy IX)
Princess Toadstool (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
Unranked for Heroes: Kumatora (Mother 3)
Demigods:
Ryu Bateson (Breath of Fire 2)
Tidus (Final Fantasy X)
Kurando Inugami (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)
Jack Van Burace (Wild Arms)
Divinities:
Lady (Shadow Hearts: From the New World)
Belial (Wild Arms 4)
I'm... Not quite 100% on some of these nominations. I hope they're all good, at least.
EDIT: Switched Ness out for Poo. Thanks for the heads-up, NEB.
-
Ness is much too good for that division... he was a Heavy/Godlike borderliner throughout his DL career. He'd be perfect for Demigods if you'd like to nom him there. Rest look good!
-
Et's first turn speed is nearly 1.5x average, nearly 1.3x average at typical worst. She lets enemies get a turn way too often, sure, but she almost -never- lets them get a second unless they're Raquel-level physical walls. And with MK2 elemental walling options and a decent enough statusblocker pool, she also gets spoiling to do. Et is closer to High Heavy than to High Middle. She doesn't have a place in the Heavy/Godlike border, but she rips into the Middle/Heavy border like a hot Falchion through butter.
-
Divinity:
Zophar: THE VOICE
Ryu3: Divine PC. Isn't Yuna. *shrug*
Demigods:
Clarissa Arwin (XF): Not a good Demigod but eh.
Pamela Ibis (MK1): Ghostgirl.
Hiro (Lunar 2): Is a Hiro in Demigod. Totally cheating the system.
Terra Branford (FF6): Gets naked.
*Dorothy Gale (WoOz): Quadra-acting PC is cool.
Heroes:
Ashley Winchester (WA2): Too fitting for a "Heroes" division.
Noa (Legend of Legaia): ^_^
Max (ShF1): Just did the stat topic for em so...
Yukiko (P4): Fiery chick in more ways than one.
-
Heroes
Marle (Chrono Trigger) - Yep, she's fun, and rather iconically this rank. Fun story: I remember some people in the community arguing Marle was overrated as a Middle in 2002. Hahaha.
Rune (Phantasy Star IV) - Rune, in a division where he might actually string together multiple wins? So in.
Mesarthim (Saga Frontier) - Can still use more of a read on what rank she is.
Sonya Shulen (Suikoden) - Kinda random, but I feel like seeing how the blindy (as opposed to the silency) water rune does off those stats.
I definitely think this division has potential to be significantly more fun than Middle.
Demigods
Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) - See Mesarthim, different border.
Shania (Shadow Hearts 3) - Maybe her luck will be less horrid here?
Luther Lansfeld (Star Ocean 3) - Data shall behave as such.
Jowy Atreides (Suikoden 2) - Is awesome, and very obviously in this ability range.
* Bacchus-D79 (Star Ocean 4) - Is Mega Man.
I realise I could nominate another unranked Mega Man in this division but eh, new stat topic celebration or something.
Divinities
Yuna (Final Fantasy X) - Yay, I can nom Yuna without feeling any guilt that she'll ruin the season for some Low Godlikes!
Zophar (Lunar 2) - Yeah, I really see no reason to screw around with this division.
It amuses greatly to realise that Rika would be in this division. She'd be bad in it, so I'm not wasting the nom! But it's still amusing.
-
Heroes:
Lexis (Lufia 2), Crono (CT), Edge (FF4), Guy (FE7)
Demi-Gods:
Fogel (OB), Galcian (SoA), Red (SaGa), Wugui (SH)
Divine: Souji (Pers4), BossX (Saga), *Nate (Pers)*
-
Pyro: Terra is a bit too good for Demigods I think (like Rika, she's not doing much in Divinities, alas). She's technically got a 12-12 record in Godlike, which suggests she's at the center of the division and borderline based on that alone, but a lot of the Godlike losses are to the super-high Godlikes who aren't as comparable to high Heavies who can upgrade out of the division (Myria, Zophar, Yuna, Ryu3, etc.). DL rank was 4.77, which is above Elf's median noted at 4.68, reflecting that a lot of her losses were to duelers with uber ranking scores.
http://www.rpgdl.com/tournament/character.php?name=FF6_Terra&
-
Heroes
Grunzford (SN), Sharon (S3), Warlock (S4), Veronica (SH 2), Klein (AI)
1. The damage! The HP!...but the speed! The Mdef!
2. The evasion! The defense!...but the lacking damage
3. Earth smash
4. Spam that ID
5. Have him as 3.95 myself, so this could be a decent test. Might be a bit powerful, but not overly so.
Demigods
Millenia (G2), Berle (SO 2), Surt (VP), KOS-MOS (XS)
1. Didn't even realize she even up back in Godlike, but obvious divisional fit
2. Probably shouldn't be too much? Struggles in true Godlike, so curious how this would go
3. Firey smash
4. Let's see if she can still justify that Godlike rank at the end
Divinities
Violetta (G3), TimeLord (Saga)
1. Only so many of these that you can really throw out
2.
-
So, noms because this is a cool idea.
Heroes
Tengaar (Suikos), Raven (FE7), White Rose (SaGa), Sara (BoF1), *Tharja (FE:A)
1. Earth Rune! She's my favorite Earth Runer to boot.
2. Let's see how far that speed threshold-dependant smash goes. Also, fedl.bmp
3. sagadl.jpg
4. teh hp for Heavy? Let's see.
5. I -really- want to see how Tharja pans out in practice. One of the funnest duellers in the entirety of the FE series (well okay, I'd use Henry, but I think he's way too slow to withstand the general power level of this border). And see Raven for fedl.tif
Demigods
Hildagarde Valentine (SH3), Zerase (S5), Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1), Lulu (FFX)
1. Really fun and powerful Heavy staller who never got the smash run I always felt she deserved in the DL proper.
2. Not so powerful, but quite intriguing. How far can effective magic immunity take her?
3. re: Hilda, only actually in Godlike.
4. I must have a thing for Heavy/Godlike mage PCs.
Divinities
Ghaleon (L:SSSC), Orphan (FFXIII)
1. Filling out on High Godlikes.
2. I'm quite curious to see how Orphan effectively works himself out, and this feels like a barrel-buster division anyway.
-
Heroes (less sure on division here)
Lazlo S4 - Feels like a low heavy, but I could be thinking of a different Suikomain
Fuse (SaGa) - Lots of cool tricks but weird stat spread
Laharl (Dis1) - Maybe his laugh will earn him a victory~
Ivan (GS1) - Golden Sun hype I guess?
Demigods
Millenia (G2) - Old favorite
Clarissa (WAXF) - Like her skillset, wanna see it be useful against harder opponents
Pamela (MK1) - Call me out tooo~
Layna (SN) - Soul Nomad hype
*Dorothy (Oz) - Dat turn game
Divinities
Ryu3 (BoF3) - High Godlike PCs~ There are so many...
Red (Pkmn) - I dunno if this will work, but I recall seeing a non-main tourney that specified Red as using all six of canon game pokemon in succession and all six had to be defeated to get the win. Considering the overall frailness of the six in question, it was basically saying Red was 5 free hits from a glass cannon. I found the setup intriguing and wanted to see if it would fit into more standard tourney. If not, you can toss the vote, just curious if it suits the format.
-
Roufas is a former Heavy champ! Certainly too good for Heroes. Freyjadour I'd also question there, he's 4-2 in the division.
-
Djinn: Yeah, Freyjadour is in the middle of Heavy at the worst (hard to resist attacking element, resists status & spoils some elements, okay in a slugfest), so while it's arguable, I think he'd be better off in Demigods.
Red is a super-cool idea and I encourage you to make a thread with him vs. random Godlikes later, but think he'd be a bit too out of theme for a dueling tourney.
-
Will Fuse and Lazlo work as replacements?
Red is totally not my idea, I just remember him from someone else's tournament and thought it was cool.
-
Fuse definitely works. Lazlo probably does too, he's 2-2 and below the median, even if he'll be annoyingly good in the division.
-
Tradition is that a week is granted before closing noms, but I'm impatient, so let's say this closes Monday night, giving anyone else interested 2 days to get nominations in. Submit!! etc.
Djinn: The idea for Red originally goes back to one of Taishyr's Twink leagues, I believe, possibly a Bluelike tourney as well. I used something similar in one of my Team tournies as well, I believe.
-
Heroes: Janus Cascade(WA3), Rune Walsh(PS4), Yuiri(S3), Lyon(FE8) *Basilio(FE:A)*
Demigods: Nina(BoFIV), Magus(CT), Asellus(SaGa), Hrist Valkyrie(VP2)
Divinities: Fou-Lu(BoFIV), Xorn(G3)
-
Someone please look over these for me.
Heroes
1. Princess Toadstool (SMRPG)
2. Hector (FE7)
3. Lilka (WA2)
4. Momo (BoF3)
Demigods
1. Fogel (OB)
2. Wren (PS4)
3. Sasarai (S3)
4. Purim (SoM)
Divinities
1. Timelord
2. Yuri
*3. Laggy Fantasy Tactics Altima
-
Neph: Swap Sasarai & Lilka and you should be good. (Lilka is fine in Heroes, Sasarai is probably too good for it though there are interps that have him merely be at the high end of the range I suppose.) Cait Sith... actually, he's kind of problematic as well. super ran a Proving Grounds topic awhile back for FF7 Heavy PCs, and Cait had a winning record to everyone there, so he's actually probably a High Heavy himself. http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,6287.0.html
In general: If you edit your nominations, please make a post saying so, going to round up the auto-invites now.
-
Edited.
-
Heroes:
Menardi (Golden Sun)
Adachi (Persona 4)
Alifna (Grandia 3)
Arngrim (VPs)
Demigods:
Kuja (FF9)
Yaridovich (SMRPG)
Fei (Xenogears)
Scias (BoF 4)
Divinities:
Arceus (Pokemon Gen 4)
Viola (Radiant Historia)
Commentary on other noms.
Reiska: Your divinity picks seem a little weak. They're in that same mid godlike quagmire as rika and terra. They're probably legal picks though.
CK: I'm not a legend of dragoon player, but rose's heavy record is pretty impressive. 3-2 and both losses to some of the division's best (nina 4 and suicune) suggest to me she's too much for hero divison
Super: When I see FF4 characters I vote on the DS remake, and judging by how FF4 characters perform in these recent board tourneys, some other voters do the same. FF4DS Edge would probably chop through hero division pretty easily. He's not getting outslugged even by magic damage and even status is a dicey proposition - he blocks one of the big ones and OHKOs and immediate doubleturns come pretty easily to him. Edge needs a restriction to older forms if he's going to be let in.
-
Rose wouldn't beat Maya now though, and the other people she beat were Middle powered though. Even giving Rose starting SP, she's okay for this division.
-
Yeah, Rose I was taken aback by at first since she's technically a former Godlike, but I think that's a case where in-game and casual reactions make her seem better than she ends up in the DL. She isn't THAT fast, and she's fairly frail, and she normally wins on turn 2 (be it by ID or beatdown). There's definitely OHKOs / faster 2HKOs / status for her to fear. Giving her SP basically makes her Lazlo, she spams that ID on turn 1 but her beatdown is a bit less impressive. (She's better vs. opposing status, at least.)
That said, neither Rose nor Edge ended up getting in anyway, so oh well.
Since people like to watch the noms get rolled up, but I always found that a tad inefficient (especially with a smaller set where hitting dupes would happen all the time), the results from Python are here. Here's the spreadsheet I made before hand of positions:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnWZpz-xP-nLdGp1THlvRFpIU1JfUmJvUmNna19oYlE&usp=sharing
Here's the rolls. Pretty self-explanatory, just shuffle everything up and take the duelers who got in, then add the auto-invites (who have +100 to their spreadsheet position to make 'em obvious), then re-shuffle to get the specific match-ups. Feel free to point out any mistakes I made (or SEE INTO THE FUTURE if you're bored and want to know the week 2 matches early):
>>> import random
>>> heroes = range(1, 45)
>>> random.shuffle(heroes)
>>> heroesin = heroes[:26]
>>> heroesin = heroesin + range(102,108)
>>> random.shuffle(heroesin)
>>>
>>> heroesin
[17, 42, 25, 14, 19, 5, 22, 103, 37, 105, 31, 21, 18, 104, 29, 35, 38, 12, 39, 9, 102, 11, 3, 32, 30, 107, 1, 106, 43, 27, 26, 15]
>>> demigods = range(1,40)
>>>
>>> random.shuffle(demigods)
>>> demigodsin = demigods[:24]
>>> demigodsin = demigodsin + range(102,110)
>>>
>>> random.shuffle(demigodsin)
>>> demigodsin
[38, 30, 32, 15, 108, 7, 24, 33, 26, 22, 17, 23, 105, 3, 8, 106, 20, 19, 109, 37, 13, 4, 104, 6, 103, 9, 102, 2, 29, 10, 34, 107]
>>>
>>> divinities = range(1,16)
>>> random.shuffle(divinities)
>>> divinitiesin = divinities[:10]
>>>
>>> divinitiesin = divinitiesin + range(102,108)
>>> random.shuffle(divinitiesin)
>>> divinitiesin
[103, 102, 2, 7, 11, 104, 9, 14, 107, 1, 106, 4, 10, 15, 105, 5]
-
I'd definitely put Rose-with-starting-SP into Demigods, she's a fair bit better than Lazlo who is already kinda borderline (she has much better status protection, and fear as a backup status if ID is blocked, which I think trumps any durability difference). That said she's not exactly an amazing one, and since most people vote without SP, yeah, Heroes it is in this day and age.