The RPG Duelling League
RPG Debate => Tournaments => Topic started by: Cmdr_King on July 28, 2014, 03:17:04 AM
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Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy)
Gongora (Lost Odyssey) vs Zeromus (Final Fantasy IV)
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)
Morte (Sands of Destruction) vs Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Heavy
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series)
Ceodore (Final Fantasy IV: The After Years) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4)
(9) (Labyrinth of Touhou) vs Justin (Grandia)
Middle
Jude Mathis (Tales of Xillia) vs Bowie (Shining Force II)
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening)
Eclair (La Pucelle: Tactics) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4)
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky) vs Rody (Suikoden III)
Elephant (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Cyan Garamonde (Final Fantasy VI)
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III)
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Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy)-I think so? It's a straight Chaos HP check.
Heavy
Ceodore (Final Fantasy IV: The After Years) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)- Outlasts Ceo's MP at the absolute worst.
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4)- Elsa's evasion gives Jude all kinds of problems, as do the counters. It's possible he can slug his way out but I kind of doubt it.
Middle
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4)- I think so at least. Teddie bad against pressure.
Light
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III)- Easily outlasts, Rico's offense is awful.
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Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy)
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI) - Two girls very, very good at smashing things. I approve. Results are kneejerk otherwise.
Heavy
Middle
Jude Mathis (Tales of Xillia) vs Bowie (Shining Force II)
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky) vs Rody (Suikoden III)
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Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy)
Non-elemental giant magic smash, Chaos's favorite.
Morte (Sands of Destruction) vs Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Original Mewtwo probably has an easy win thanks to buffing both Attack & MDef off Amnesia, but I'm a Gen4 voter so no dice. That said, Morte kind of fails at damaging Mewtwo post-Barrier, and 20 shots of Recover (from the FRLG topic) is a whole lot, and none of Morte's statuses are a match-winner (oh no turnskip off Sleep / Addle, that helps a lot when Morte is like 6-7HKOing at best). Dunno how to interpret Pressure, but Morte certainly runs out first if it's "double SP costs", and probably runs out of SP first anyway even if Pressure is given no hype, Barrier just screws her over badly.
Heavy
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series)
Tiki 4HKOs and goes first. Pirate promptly opens with Shin Smash and gets countered (don't really hype an instant double off the speed-down), so 2 hits. Pirate double-attacks Defang and gets countered (2.5 hits). Tiki blasts again (3 hits). Pirate needs to win right the heck now, so no screwing around with Scale Strip (flavorful!), so he Braves -> doubles double damage, then 1 more double damage. If that isn't fatal, the 2 counters kill Pirate. So... are 3 stat-down hits + 3x Double Damage fatal? LOLNO. (Pirate really hates giving up the first turn here.)
EDIT: Actually Pirate should really just unload on turn 2 now that I think about it. He'll still die from the 2 turn 1 blasts + 4 half-damage counters but he gets more damage in this way. So Turn 1 Shin Smash, Turn 2 2x Defang, 2x Scale Strip, 2x Double Damage, 1x Double Damage, die. Problem is that even after Scale Strip Tiki's defense is STILL good which is scary, so I don't think that's enough anyway.
Middle
Jude Mathis (Tales of Xillia) vs Bowie (Shining Force II)
No SF2, but I'd just like to say I was really awful with Jude's super-dodging myself.
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening)
This is pretty interesting, actually, Nowi's giant Resistance (nearly double the cast average!) screws up Serperior's Giga Drain game something fierce, and even double-drains are mostly offset by the incoming counter attack. Leech Seed will help a lot, though, and Nowi isn't exactly killing quickly. Also if Leech Seed misses Serperior is in deep trouble (checking, Leech Seed is affected by Double Team and the like in-game, so I'd see it as affected by FE Resistance... for all that FEA doesn't really have status in it, YMMV). So yeah. Nowi 3.5HKOs or so, but Leech Seed undoes half of it, so it's more like a 7HKO, but with range 1-2 counters and basically shrugging off the damage, I think she still wins anyway. Open to arguments though. (This is purely off the stat topic, I'm not a Gen5 player, so I can easily have missed something.)
EDIT: Oh, Grass isn't very effective vs. Dragon? Welp, this is just an unholy slaughter then.
EDIT2: But Leech Seed ignores typing, so this fight is interesting again after all. Serperior's strat here is to open Leech Seed, then buff like crazy (attacking is pointless, it'll just get a counter), then strike when he's 1 turn away from death. Since he gets attack buffing this might not be a totally crazy plan, but I'll leave the vote as is for now unless Random or the like maths it out otherwise.
EDIT3: If the Defense buffing game is good enough, sure, I'll buy it. WEIRD win off just Leech Seed and nothing else but sure.
Eclair (La Pucelle: Tactics) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)
Light Eclair loses horribly. Dark Eclair spams Omega Lance to try and break through Light's healing, and despite Dark Eclair's awful Defense, I don't think Lightning OHKOs, and trying to 2HKO is suicide. So... this comes down to how good Light's heal-spam game is. Stat topic isn't too helpful for me (it's aftergamey with 6x commands and a higher HP average) but I kneejerk around ~40% of her average HP, Omega Lance is .49 PCHP of damage, L&D is .53 PCHP... so each Omega Lance knocks off 9% PCHP. After 6 Omega Lances, L&D will kill. 6*40 + 100 = 340, and OK gives 320 SP... nope! 8 Omega Lances, though, would be 7*.9 + .49 = .98 PCHP, and Lightning has 1.00 exactly. Huh. Anyway that seems clearly the inflection point, if you see Light's healing as slightly better she wins, as slightly worse and she loses.
Light
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky) vs Rody (Suikoden III)
Amalthea 3HKOs Rody's decent MDef. Rody doesn't 3HKO Amalthea (he borderline 2 or 3HKOs -Amalthea 1- but this isn't the Puny Cup!). That's that, for all that Amalthea is probably slightly faster anyway even if Rody is seen as making the 3HKO. (of course if you're harsh on Amalthea spamming her 1 decent damage move rather than her crap, she can still lose of course!)
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III)
Rico, come in! Rico? RICO!!!!!!!!!1
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Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy) - Boom
Gongora (Lost Odyssey) vs Zeromus (Final Fantasy IV)
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)
Morte (Sands of Destruction) vs Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Heavy
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series) - Snowfire's breakdown works for me.
Ceodore (Final Fantasy IV: The After Years) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4)
(9) (Labyrinth of Touhou) vs Justin (Grandia)
Middle
Jude Mathis (Tales of Xillia) vs Bowie (Shining Force II)
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening) - I...think? Nowi defences kinda good, prolly enough to handle smugsnake.
Eclair (La Pucelle: Tactics) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4) - Kneejerk that Teddie can't do anything about default to double multiburst.
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky) vs Rody (Suikoden III)
Elephant (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Cyan Garamonde (Final Fantasy VI)
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III) - :rico:
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Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy) - Kneejerk. Might be swingy depending on which form you give Chaos (between FF1NES, FF1PSX, and Dawn of Souls)? Pretty much agree with Super that it's an HP check, and PSX/DoS give him increasingly higher amounts of HP so... I dunno. Going with this for now.
Heavy
Ceodore (Final Fantasy IV: The After Years) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII) - Sucks for Ceo, healers are like the worst thing for him to face.
(9) (Labyrinth of Touhou) vs Justin (Grandia) - edit: vote not changed, but to sum it up: with my interpretation of LoT status resistances, the Bonecrusher Axe isn't swinging things, and Justin can't really deal with Cirno simply alternating White Album and Icicle Fall regardless of how you interpret speed in this match. It more or less swings on how you interpret status resistances, and given that in-game you usually go out of your way to block or minimize status, and that LoT status resistance works a lot like FE/FFX evasion and I have similarly high respect for both of those, my respect for the status resistance is also high. I'm not inclined to give Justin a win off 9% ID (which is what he has by my interpretation) and sufficient White Album spam can hold even Lotus Cut, hitting Cirno's fire weakness, to 5HKO... and Justin doesn't actually have enough SP for 5 Lotus Cuts, so he's kind of screwed there. Essentially, this match just requires a few too many assumptions in Justin's favor for him to win for my tastes, but if your respect for subtractive evasion/status resistance is low, I can respect that. If you really badly want to argue the ID angle with me, 9% ID with two checks per turn works out to turn 6 for me, he ain't getting that.
Middle
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening) - edited, defense buffing argument swayed me
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Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy) - Chaos is roughly 0.8 mdur to me. That certainly can't tank a Liberate (which clocks in at the whereabouts of 1.05 PC HP). And, in fairness, pretty much every single Aya fight is a straight mdur check on the opposing side.
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series) - Dear god, every attack of Pirate triggers counters and Tiki can tank a full string no problemo even after Shell Split. Considering she also 4HKOs him at worst and gets the drop on him, this just gets -ugly- really fast - as in he has some issues getting a second turn if he doesn't open with either Defang or Shin Smash.
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4) - At base, before any Auto-Raku armor shenanigans, Ranger one-rounds Teddie. If he attempts Auto-Raku, she opens with Default and, from turn two onwards, she heal-locks him regardless of Rakukaja being active or not and Teddie's awful at exploiting even Ranger's egregious mdur. Pretty open and shut.
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics) - ARROW GUARD
Elephant (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Cyan Garamonde (Final Fantasy VI) - Cyan takes roughly three turns to charge up Cleaver. Elephant... might not even get a -second turn- before then and he needs three minimum to win. His speed is just that bad. Dear god.
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III) - I don't think Rico's crit odds are really enough here given how -bad- her damage is. Past that, it's infinite healing vs. non-infinite healing against bad damage. I mean, Freelancer's offense is infinitely worse somehow, but it's just not enough.
EDIT: Reiska, on Cirno vs. Justin: if Justin's getting two turns under your analysis -anyway-, wouldn't he just go straight for the ID axe, which lands the status turn two on average? Not that I can vote.
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Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy) - Pretty sure I see DoS Chaos clocking in above 1.05 PCHP, for all that this vote isn't gonna matter because yeah seriously.
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI) - Likely has enough time to land the disgusting overkill.
Morte (Sands of Destruction) vs Mewtwo (Pokémon) - Probably.
Heavy
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4) - Evade's too likely to screw up Assault Buster shenanigans and counters means Jude can't afford this.
(9) (Labyrinth of Touhou) vs Justin (Grandia) - e: there's actually a slight problem with Reiska's analysis and that's that the bonecrusher axe exists, and (9)'s ID resist isn't nearly good enough to make that turn 4 assuming it works like I think it does (and if anything it's below average so I'm not inclined to give it that much respect even if it doesn't).
Middle
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening) - e: actually, no, defense buffing should by smugsnake enough time to leech seed his way to victory and that's obviously not triggering counters.
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics) - Arrow Guard.
Elephant (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Cyan Garamonde (Final Fantasy VI) - ELEPHANT
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You're right, the ID axe could matter, but.
Re: interpreting status resistances in LoT, the mechanics of them are actually quite simple, and work more or less the way Grandia's do but with a different number scale. LoT status resistances are rated on a scale from 0 to 34. Almost all status in LoT has a base hit rate of 100%; every point of status resistance reduces the hit rate by 3%, so 34 resistance to a status is immunity. (Boss Yuyuko, who is optional, and the aftergame superboss have ID attacks with base success rates higher than 100%; 34 death resistance does not provide immunity to these. Outside of these two specific fights, status rates in LoT are uniformly 100%.) You'll notice this is not at all unlike how FFX evade relates to enemy accuracy.
Taking Cirno's status resistances strictly as they operate in-game, she reduces the success rate of any incoming ID effect by 24% (and this is how the LoT stat topic handles it) - this is an absolute, not proportional, reduction, i.e. it would drop the success chance on the ID from 33% to 9%, which in turn means Justin's ID rate over a combo would be 17%; this has a slightly better than coinflip chance of working after Justin's 4th turn, and I think I'd see it as reliably turn 5. This is obviously the interp most favorable to Cirno; it also has a certain degree of consistency to it, though, since Grandia and LoT status resistances function in a fundamentally similar fashion (just with a different number scale). It's *also* the interp that most closely mirrors in-game. IIRC, this is how we generally interpret FFX evade as well, since its conditions are similar, and this is certainly the interpretation I'm using here for consistency with how I interpret FFX evade.
That may not be fair to non-LoT casts, though, where statuses with a base rate under 100% are common, so another valid interpretation would be that she reduces the rate by 24% proportionally, making Justin's 33% ID become 25%. That makes his ID rate over a combo 44%.
It should also be noted that if Justin's going for ID, Cirno has no reason to use White Album - Justin's basic physical damage won't remotely kill her before the ID does - and will thus want to go full-bore with Icicle Fall. HOWEVER, if Cirno ignores White Album, Justin 2HKOs with Lotus Cut regardless of his weapon, so she does have to use it
Two other things should be noted. One, my original math forgot to account for Justin's HP by sheer oversight. I've thus removed it so it doesn't give the wrong impression, and I am properly accounting for it here. The second is that, as such, there's an argument for Icicle Fall being a 7HKO here instead of a 6HKO depending on how you interpret Grandia's lack of a magic defense stat (since Icicle Fall does damage against the average of def and mdef). A friendly interp (taking Justin's mdef as average) renders it 7HKO, and this interpretation would be consistent with giving LoT status resistance the aforementioned subtractive respect. A harsh interp (penalizing Justin for having no magic resistance against the cast average of -15% magic damage) renders it 6HKO. I subscribe to the 7HKO interpretation, personally (it's only fair!), under which this happens:
100 = turn (start of turn)
Cirno Justin C-HP J-HP
100.00 64.96 100.00 100.00 C: White Album (DEF +50%)
153.94 100.00 63.75 100.00 J: Lotus Cut (-36.25%)
200.00 129.92 63.75 84.16 C: Icicle Fall (-15.84%); J's speed is at -50%; C's DEF +40%
300.00 162.40 63.75 68.32 C: Icicle Fall (-15.84%); C's DEF +32%
400.00 194.88 63.75 68.32 C: White Album refresh; C's DEF +76%
415.76 200.00 39.89 68.32 J: Lotus Cut (-23.86%); J's speed is at -40%
500.00 232.83 39.89 52.48 C: Icicle Fall (-15.84%); J's speed is at -50%; C's DEF +62%
600.00 265.31 39.89 36.64 C: Icicle Fall (-15.84%); C's DEF +50%
700.00 297.79 39.89 36.64 C: White Album refresh; C's DEF +90%
706.80 300.00 22.86 36.64 J: Lotus Cut (-17.03%); J's speed is at -40%
800.00 336.32 22.86 20.80 C: Icicle Fall (-15.84%); J's speed is at -50%; C's DEF +72%
900.00 368.80 22.86 20.80 C: White Album refresh; C's DEF +100%
996.07 400.00 10.78 20.80 J: Lotus Cut (-12.08%); J's speed is at -40%
1000.00 401.53 10.78 4.96 C: Icicle Fall (-15.84%); J's speed is at -50%; C's DEF +80%
1100.00 434.01 10.78 -dead- C: Icicle Fall (-15.84%), fight over
Justin would need a fifth Lotus Cut to win the match, which he doesn't actually have sufficient SP to use, so he's SOL. Given that I see his ID as being 9% per swing, it doesn't kick in for me until turn 6, and he's dead before his fifth. This is a pretty great matchup, in any event, IMO. Absolute worst case (by my interps), Cirno wins by alternating White Album and Icicle Fall, even with less favorable speed interps, I think.
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Yeah, looking at the stat topic, Cirno is actually horrible at resisting ID (the average PC in her game cuts ID by 54%. She cuts by 25%). Needless to say, I think it's seems far more likely that she's actually pushing that ID axe up to turn 1 (assuming I'm reading this right).
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Yeah, looking at the stat topic, Cirno is actually horrible at resisting ID (the average PC in her game cuts ID by 54%. She cuts by 25%). Needless to say, I think it's seems far more likely that she's actually pushing that ID axe up to turn 1 (assuming I'm reading this right).
As noted above (restating it here to get it out of the wall of text), I interpret LoT status resistances here the same way I interpret FFX PC evasion, because the two work almost exactly the same way:
LoT Status: success rate = (Base Success Rate - (Resistance*3))%. Base Success Rate is always 100% except for one attack used by an optional maingame boss (unknown higher value) and the aftergame superboss (same unknown higher value, I believe).
FFX Evade: hit rate = (Base Hit Rate - Evasion)%. Base monster accuracy isn't documented unfortunately but I suspect somewhat strongly that for the majority of monsters it is similarly 100% or possibly lower, given how rarely Lulu gets hit in game.
That said I know you're one of the people who's harsh on FFX (and FE) evasion, and so your view on the ID resistance would be consistent at least regardless of how much I don't agree. :)
Also, while it's on my mind, status blocker possibilities. It should be noted that sufficiently harsh views on LoT equipment render all of it DL-illegal, but some people do allow FFX status blockers despite them being not storebought, so here's the relevant data for LoT and you can draw your own conclusions. PCs in LoT can equip 3 pieces of equipment, duplicates are okay.
It's worth noting that if there's any status blocker you consciously farm in-game, it's death, because of boss Yuyuko.
The careworthy blockers:
Poison Resistance Ring: Poison res +20, one in a chest, three enemies drop it at rates of 4% to 4.5%.
Para Resistance Ring: Paralyze res +20, one in a chest, two enemies drop it at 4%.
Yamabiko Necklace: Silence res +20, one in a chest, one enemy drops it at 5%.
Ring of Hades: Death res +20, two in a chest, seven enemies drop (four at 4%, three at 3%).
Ring of Faith: Debuff res +20, one in a chest, one guaranteed boss drop, one random enemy drop at 3%.
Wing Amulet: Silence res +12, also gives +12% speed and +48 wind affinity, one in a chest, one enemy drops it at 1%.
White Immortal Sake: Debuff res +10, also gives +16% HP/SP/MAG, one in a chest.
Tellina Shell Necklace: Death res +16, also gives +16% SP/MND and +48 spirit affinity, one in a chest, one enemy drops it at 2.5%.
Black Onyx: Poison/paralyze/silence res +6, also gives +24% HP and +4% recovery, one in a chest, four enemies drop it (two at 2%, two at 3%).
Persona 4 Glasses: Poison/debuff res +12, also gives +12% HP/SP/MAG/MND, two in chests.
Phial of Galadriel: All status res +6, also gives +16% all stats, two in chests.
Lance of Geios: Silence res +16, also gives +30% ATK and +50 wind/cold affinity, one in a chest, one enemy drops it at 1%.
Karen Device: All status res +12, also gives +48 all elemental affinities, one in a chest, one enemy on the final floor drops it at 1%.
Egg of Life: Poison res +16, also gives +30% HP/MND, +6% recovery, +50 nature/wind/spirit affinity, two in chests, one boss drops at 25.6%, one enemy drops at 1%.
Forbidden Tablet: Silence/death res +16, also gives +30% MAG, +4% recovery, +60 mystic affinity, one in a chest, one boss drops at 25.6%, two enemies drop it (one at 0.6%, one at 1%).
Ice Sword: Debuff res +14, also gives +36% ATK and +60 cold affinity, one in a chest.
Star of Elendil: All status res +8, also gives +20% all stats, three in chests, three bosses drop it (one guaranteed, one at 25.6%, one at 5%), one enemy drops at 1%.
Ribbon: All status res +24, one in a chest, one enemy on the final floor drops it at 0.7%.
Dairokutenmaou Armor: Debuff res +12, also gives +24% HP, +48% DEF, +60 fire affinity, one in a chest, two bosses drop it at 25.6%.
Shiva's Leather Boots: Paralyze/death res +15, also gives +48% ATK/DEF, +40% SPD, one in a chest.
King of Heart's Badge: Poison/paralyze res +16, also gives +40% HP, +48% ATK/DEF, +30% SPD, +6% recovery, one in a chest.
Shuttle Body: All status res +20, also gives +36% DEF/MND, one in a chest.
Longsword Ringil: Paralyze res +24, also gives +68% ATK, +88% SPD, +128 cold affinity, one in a chest.
Gold Cloth: All status res +12, also gives +30% HP/SP, +40% ATK/DEF/MAG/MND/SPD, +48 all elemental affinities, one in a chest.
Dewprism: Silence res +20, also gives +50% SP/MAG/MND, +80 fire/cold/wind/nature affinity, one in a chest.
Armads: Paralyze res +36, also gives +50% ATK, +144 wind affinity, dropped by one enemy on the final floor at 5% for the first drop and 1.5% thereafter.
For the record, I haven't tallied up the other statuses yet, but there are 15 guaranteed death resistance items by endgame: one +24, three +20, two +16, one +15, two +12, four +8, two +6. This is 199 total points of death protection. A theoretical party of 12 average PCs has 218.28 points of death protection, so add these figures together and you get 417.28, or every PC having 34.77 death protection once you average the blockers over the cast. (34 is immunity.)
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My scaling actually doesn't tend to be harsher on FE evade, it's just harsher on people who generally aren't good at it (of course, this is generally because for everyone else, they use a higher than average enemy HIT as a balancing), because you shouldn't get credit for being bad at something just because it's a stat your game has (Suikoden Luc has 120 Defense, meaning he cuts physical damage by 120! This is technically a completely positive number...until you compare it to everyone else).
(Also FFX barely counts because it has two people with great evade, 3 with middling evade who then get a special skill (which given how it works is not counted in averages), and two people who are there. Scaling or not has a pretty minor effect in FF X. I mean...it counts in that I scale it, but it just ceases to matter which way you go for it).
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Godlike
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI) - Quickened Persephone is about 150% average speed. Terra basically has to either constantly move around and chip with Drain or physicals because Fire 3 is a no-go. I don't think she has enough time to make this work before Persephone either corners her or laps, at which point, Gatling Gun GG
Heavy
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4) - Kneejerk. Jude *may* win this depending on how you view Ignia Guard's properties. Since a lot of Elsa's damage is in small chunks (M.Guns do for example 36 dmg x 10 as opposed to a large one shot rifle that does 350 x 1), he may be able to either ignore damage outright OR stall the match until he wins eventually by using Shield Guard, defending and waiting for counters.
Middle
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening) - I don't give Nowi resistances to which she doesn't have in-game. That being said, I think Serperior has some defense buffing move anyway, and given that status doesn't trigger a counter in FE, Leech Seed + something like Defense Curl and Wrap could do enough continuous damage to tip this. Since Snowfire thought it was close before factoring in Dragon defenses, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.
Light
Can't vote. Thank god.
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Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy)
Gongora (Lost Odyssey) vs Zeromus (Final Fantasy IV): I never did fight Gongora.
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI): ITD overkill.
Morte (Sands of Destruction) vs Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Heavy
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series)
Ceodore (Final Fantasy IV: The After Years) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4)
(9) (Labyrinth of Touhou) vs Justin (Grandia)
Middle
Jude Mathis (Tales of Xillia) vs Bowie (Shining Force II): Isn't 2HKOd, so can just knockdown/heal as need be.
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening)
Eclair (La Pucelle: Tactics) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4): Teddie's a bit frail? Ranger can store turns with Multiburst threats to break the healing too.
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics): Arrow Guard.
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky) vs Rody (Suikoden III): Rune.
Elephant (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Cyan Garamonde (Final Fantasy VI)
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III): INFINITE HEALING!
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yay games from modern video games i can vote on
Heavy
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4) - like... I don't think Jude stands any chance here? Period? Evasion gives Jude fits as I recall and even if he was hitting decently well it's high baseline damage vs. low baseline damage and Elsa bursts like 100x better, if less predictably IIRC?
Middle
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4) - hits weakness on beasts. teddie can't bear the pressure.
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics) - iiiii don't respect arrow guard against actual above-average accuracy... flipside Seneca's evasion doesn't exist against Archer, hi Concentrate. (I also don't respect 70 brave from soldier office, think I'd take it as 60 br/fa). This being said uhhh at this point it's a straight slugfest and I think Archer tenatively wins that anyway, better durability and the offense isn't worse enough/Seneca won't double anything resembling in time. Any kinder legality for items/spells (read: giving Suikotactics people one use of elemental tiles to reflect ingame) would be major for Seneca, but she's in Light so that's not an interp i feel comfortable espousing
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III) - it's a sad day when freelancer healing alone is enough to win a fight.
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Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy)
Gongora (Lost Odyssey) vs Zeromus (Final Fantasy IV)
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)
Morte (Sands of Destruction) vs Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Heavy
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series)
Ceodore (Final Fantasy IV: The After Years) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4)
(9) (Labyrinth of Touhou) vs Justin (Grandia)
Middle
Jude Mathis (Tales of Xillia) vs Bowie (Shining Force II)
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening)
Eclair (La Pucelle: Tactics) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4)
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky) vs Rody (Suikoden III)
Elephant (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Cyan Garamonde (Final Fantasy VI)
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III)
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Just to add on more on Justin v Cirno...Cirno is all Ice? All Ice against a Grandia 1 endgame character is...bad. Justin can at least halve Ice (I don't remember how Grandia 1 elementals stack, but if it's like later Grandias, then Justin can get 70% Ice res). Cirno starts off just below a 4HKO to start with. Justin halved that to almost an 8HKO before his HP, and worse than that if elementals stack. Granted, knowing...little at LoT,
If I'm reading this right, then after buffing Lotus Cut should 4HKO. Cirno's Pdur after buffing is 1.48...or .8 to Fire. Justin does like .25 off Lotus Cut. I don't know anything about Cirno's speed game, but seems like Justin is killing a bit more quickly even with straight up damage too.
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Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy)
Gongora (Lost Odyssey) vs Zeromus (Final Fantasy IV)
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)
Morte (Sands of Destruction) vs Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Heavy
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series)
Ceodore (Final Fantasy IV: The After Years) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4)
(9) (Labyrinth of Touhou) vs Justin (Grandia)
Middle
Jude Mathis (Tales of Xillia) vs Bowie (Shining Force II)
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening)
Eclair (La Pucelle: Tactics) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4)
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics)
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky) vs Rody (Suikoden III)
Elephant (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Cyan Garamonde (Final Fantasy VI)
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III)
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Godlike
Gongora (Lost Odyssey) vs Zeromus (Final Fantasy IV): Kneejerk. I wish we had a stat topic for Gongora but his damage should be extremely high. Can't say the same for Zeromus. EDIT: Changing to abstain, was misremembering. Drawing a blank on Gongora's actual battle form.
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI): Quicken, take a hit, smite. Resisting Terra's best damage should give her plenty of time.
Heavy
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series): Counters make this very easy.
Ceodore (Final Fantasy IV: The After Years) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII): Even if she can't wreck Ceodore with some status/blitz combniation, infinite healing is a bit much for him.
Middle
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening): Nowi has a 4HKO. Serperior is going to toss out a Leech Seed (which is turn 1 as far as I'm concerned, both games use evade and only evade for determing whether Leech Seed would land, Nowi's isn't good) then Coil away. Nowi's damage, if it starts at 30%, goes 30+20+15+... at this point it's too low to break Leech Seed and she hasn't killed by now.
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics): This is just depressing considering their respective in-game worths. But Arrow Guard makes it pretty clear.
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky) vs Rody (Suikoden III): Rody sucks.
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III): Infinite healing trumps finite healing in a battle of garbage offence.
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Godlike
Gongora (Lost Odyssey) vs Zeromus (Final Fantasy IV)- Uh...my gut is that Gongora was...not good. I thought the midgame form was a fast 3? HKO. Endgame I guess was so streamrolled.
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)
Heavy
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series)- Sure, I haven't even Pirate yet, but don't think it matters since I don't forsee any reason to have a big difference from the stat topic.
Middle
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4)
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics)- Archer uses bad skill to beat cool archer Mk 2 (Not Mk 3 because Innes doesn't count)
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky) vs Rody (Suikoden III)
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Just to add on more on Justin v Cirno...Cirno is all Ice? All Ice against a Grandia 1 endgame character is...bad. Justin can at least halve Ice (I don't remember how Grandia 1 elementals stack, but if it's like later Grandias, then Justin can get 70% Ice res). Cirno starts off just below a 4HKO to start with. Justin halved that to almost an 8HKO before his HP, and worse than that if elementals stack. Granted, knowing...little at LoT,
If I'm reading this right, then after buffing Lotus Cut should 4HKO. Cirno's Pdur after buffing is 1.48...or .8 to Fire. Justin does like .25 off Lotus Cut. I don't know anything about Cirno's speed game, but seems like Justin is killing a bit more quickly even with straight up damage too.
~.25 is right after one buff, but the buff is stackable (decays 20% of its total value at the start of each of Cirno's turns, stackable to a cap of +100%). I don't remember any mention in the stat topic of any ice resistance beyond what I already took into account for Justin (20%), but if he has to use his accessory slot to get more ice resistance, it means he can't use his accessory slot to block Paralyze, and if he doesn't block Paralyze he's dead also.
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There's a group of armors up at top that I didn't relist for everyone because they are general armor that includes Ice halving (so no need to drop Paralysis blocker).
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Looking things up the fight I was remembering as "Gongora's battle form" is in fact Luminous Magic Beast, a creature he summons in the final battle sequence. Whoops. Much less sure that Gongora wins now, changing to abstain. (Luminous Magic Beast totally handles Zeromus though.)
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IIRC, Gongora near the end had plotsy HP->1 and I think may have been so sad otherwise that I put it out of mind. But my memory is pretty fuzzy on that so if there was something, I wouldn't be 100% surprised.
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There's a non-plot portion to that battle after the plot bit. It's not very good in-game, no, though by no means DL worthless from what I can recall. ... Checking some guides they note Gongora as notably less damaging than LMB, with 100% stone (I do remember this) and an element shift gimmick. That doesn't sound like it stacks up well against Zeromus, really.
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I don't have the free time during the week to do any more extensive math on the Cirno match, but if she keeps White Album's buff as high as possible for all of Justin's turns, he gets 36.25% of Cirno's HP off the first one and 12.08% off successive ones, meaning he needs 6 of them to kill. Cirno has the SP to support this; Justin does not, so after 4 Lotus Cuts (after which Cirno has 27.51% HP remaining) he's stuck with his basic physicals. You could argue he has a bit of a delay game with Critical, but even so, Critical against buffcapped Cirno is 2.44% HP a hit (and Combo is 3.25%). The speed game has her getting somewhere between 2 and 3 turns to his one after she's debuffed his speed. Icicle Fall applies Speed -50%, and debuffs decay the same way buffs do (20% of the debuff value at the start of the debuffed PC's turn), and cap at -50%. By my interp it's closer to three, but two is enough to have White Album almost capped for Justin's second attack and permanently capped after that. As for Cirno's SP depth, Icicle Fall is 20 SP and White Album is 36 SP, out of a maximum of 759, so she can maintain 13 cycles of alternating Icicle Fall and White Album before she runs out of SP. At that point, she can spend a turn to recover 40 SP (but will no longer be able to maintain max defense buff). For what it's worth, if Justin's using the ice resist armor, Icicle Fall's damage is around 6.26% (16HKO), so she will certainly run out of SP and need to use Focus. I don't have the free time to do another exhaustive mathing, but she definitely has to play conservatively while Justin still has SP (in fact, it may be worth it for her to ignore offense/speed debuffs completely until he's burned his SP out, so as to reduce the damage of the second Lotus Cut more as she can't be buffcapped until the third). If she White Albums her first two turns and doesn't start the debuff game until her turn 3, the second Lotus Cut does just under 4% HP less in damage. I'm not entirely sure how this pans out, no time. I'm pretty sure she (BARELY) takes it under my speed interp; as a *really* rough guess she needs something like 2.3-2.5 turns to Justin's 1 to pull it off, as she'll need to be able to do at least one string of Focus-Focus-White Album at some point (letting her def buff fall below cap is fatal if Justin gets a turn while it's not capped, period). My interp sees it at around 2.8:1.
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Wait, if Cirno is 110% speed, and the speed debuff caps out at 50% (which per the stat topic notes, but average speed at 66%), then statistically there will never be a triple turn. So if she needs to get 2.3 turns to Justin's 1 to win, it's not happening. But let's play this out a little and see how badly she falls behind.
Justin's base damage with Bonesplitter Axe with Lotus Cut is 880 (1636 against Cirno's Fire Defense). Cirno has the equivalent of 3,183 Grandia 1 enemy HP). Justin's basic physical is 440. Justin is a hair below average, but is using an attack that may be a tad quick, so I'm calling him averagish for sanity.
Cirno 1: Buff
Justin 1: Does 1080 to Cirno
Cirno 2: Buff (I think she needs this, because it seems like speed down won't be enough here to double and she really needs to straight up to minimize the damage)
Justin 2: Either does 507 or uses normal attack (1216 total to Cirno)
Cirno 3: Attack (Let's say that this is just enough to double. (Justin is at 72.7% of a full bar at this point, which is to say that Cirno will not instant double).
Justin 3: Probably just uses a normal attack (1423 to Cirno) (Cirno is 45% of a full bar)
Cirno 4: Attack 2 of 16 needed to kill (Justin is at 37% of a bar, so she does double here)
Cirno 5: Buff (Justin is basically at 95% of a full bar)
Justin: 4: Attack (1520 to Cirno)
...
Okay at this point we have the following: Cirno needs another 14 attacks to kill with her damage.
Cirno is half dead basically.
Justin still has 3 Lotus Cuts
Justin has used his normal attack 3 times. Even with a view that is very, very, very strongly skewed against Justin, he needs 6 attacks.
Cirno needs to get in another 14 attacks, keep up her buffing in the interim, refresh SP at least once and prevent Justin from getting another 3 attacks. Unless the notes in the stat topic on her speed game are wrong, Cirno is long dead before she kills. Cirno practically almost dies from basic Grandia physicals (!!!!!!) before she manages to do Justin in.
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Cirno's attacks are also faster than average, don't forget to account for that (I did at first, and it does matter).
Explanation that abstracts things a bit: every attack in the game has a delay value, which is how much is subtracted from the CTB meter when the attack is used. The rate at which the CTB meter fills is based on Speed, and LoT PC speed has stepwise diminishing returns at values above 200 (speed and charge rate have a 1:1 relationship up to 200 speed, then a 2:1 relationship from 201 to 300, then 3:1 from 301 to 400, and so on). (LoT enemy speed does not have diminishing returns, and is always a 1:1 relation to CTB fill rate, so halving an enemy's speed makes their CTB take twice as long to fill.) In practice, the net DL effect is not quite exactly half speed because of debuff decay; the debuff decays to -40% when Justin takes his turn, so until Cirno gets her next turn, he's filling CTB at that -40% rate, not -50%.
Every tick, all combatants' CTB is incremented by an amount based on speed (the increment amount is shown in the stat topic in brackets; for Cirno, it's 320), and when it reaches 10000 (or higher), the combatant gets to act. Excess CTB over 10000 is lost, but is used for tiebreaks. LoT average speed by the existing stat topic is 385, which works out to 278 CTB points per tick. LoT PCs usually begin fights at 5000 CTB, so the average LoT PC gets their first turn after 18 ticks. Cirno gets her first turn in 16 ticks. (There are a few exceptions in boss fights IIRC)
The average attack delay given in the stat topic is 5934; thus, after using such an attack, the character's CTB meter will be at 4056 and will refill from there until it reaches 10000 again. For an average speed PC, this happens in 22 ticks (21.34, have to round up given the nature of the system). Icicle Fall and White Album both have delays of 5000, faster than the 5934 average; so after using them, Cirno only has to refill from 5000 (so she acts every 16 ticks).
Therefore Cirno gets her first turn 11.1% faster than average, and her subsequent turns are 27.27% faster than average (with the attacks being used in this fight; Perfect Freeze is notably slower than average at 7500 and Diamond Blizzard is basically dead average at 6000). [This is why Icicle Fall is her best damage despite being less damage per hit than Perfect Freeze.]
I'm frankly not sure how whoever wrote the LoT topic came up with the abstractions for speed debuffing (the 66% figure), but based on my own in-game experience it's closer to actually being 50% than that (but is not actually quite 50% in practice for the reasons stated above. 55% might be a decent abstraction, the true value depends a lot on the speed differential between the two combatants). My best guess is that the 66% figure assumes that the target is another LoT PC (in which case that would be a lot closer to right: LoT Speed debuffs are less effective against LoT PCs due to the diminishing effect). Interp issue, perhaps.
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Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) vs Chaos (Final Fantasy)
Gongora (Lost Odyssey) vs Zeromus (Final Fantasy IV)- kneejerk marginally higher respect for Gongora's durability, and I THINK the net damage is similar.
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)
Morte (Sands of Destruction) vs Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Heavy
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series)
Ceodore (Final Fantasy IV: The After Years) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4)- No vote.
(9) (Labyrinth of Touhou) vs Justin (Grandia)- No vote.
Middle
Jude Mathis (Tales of Xillia) vs Bowie (Shining Force II)- No vote.
Serperior (Pokémon) vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening)- The coil and let Leech Seed do the work strategy working is weird. Oh well, damage isn't Nowi's thing.
Eclair (La Pucelle: Tactics) vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4)- Man only one person actually went with the "weak to anti-bear attacks" route :(
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics)- You would think I"d have remembered Arrow Guard but noooo.
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky) vs Rody (Suikoden III)
Elephant (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Cyan Garamonde (Final Fantasy VI)- No vote.
Freelancer (Bravely Default) vs Rico (Suikoden III)
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Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4)- Man only one person actually went with the "weak to anti-bear attacks" route :(
Well...
Slayer* (8 MP): Regular physical attack. 2727 physical damage if species weakness hit.
Attack: 2917 physical damage
Considering it's actually slightly -detrimental- for Ranger to hit species weaknesses in comparison to just hitting A in the DL, you can hardly blame us.
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BUT IT PUTS RANGER CLOSER TO A LIMIT!!!
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Yes, I didn't expect Hype because that but still . Also I can blame you for whatever I want dammit.
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Godlike
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5) vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI) kneejerk wins the slugfest
Heavy
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4) vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4) Elsa rams into Judes good defense, which is compounded by high hits of (generally) low damage being the type of attack that WA4 defense mocks the most, Jude also kind of has an argument for hitting all of Elsa's parts for full damage rather then distributing it, fairly certain he can off her arms before she can chew through his pdur.
Middle
Ranger (Bravely Default) vs Teddie (Persona 4) can burst through the healing handily enough.
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Week 2 is still open!. Just realized I hadn't counted these votes and would need them in a couple days.
Godlike
Aya Brea (Parasite Eve)- iiiiii vs Chaos (Final Fantasy)- ii
Gongora (Lost Odyssey)- ii vs Zeromus (Final Fantasy IV)
Persephone (Wild ARMs 5)- iiiiiiii vs Terra Branford (Final Fantasy VI)- ii
Morte (Sands of Destruction) vs Mewtwo (Pokémon)- iiii
Heavy
Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Tiki (Fire Emblem Series)- iiiiiii
Ceodore (Final Fantasy IV: The After Years) vs Oerba dia Vanille (Final Fantasy XIII)- iiiii
Elsa Eliane (Front Mission 4)- iiii vs Jude Maverick (Wild ARMs 4)- i
(9) (Labyrinth of Touhou)- ii vs Justin (Grandia)- i
Middle
Jude Mathis (Tales of Xillia)- ii vs Bowie (Shining Force II)
Serperior (Pokémon)- iiiiiii vs Nowi (Fire Emblem: Awakening)- i
Eclair (La Pucelle: Tactics)- i vs Lightning Farron (Final Fantasy XIII)- iii
Ranger (Bravely Default)- iiiiiiii vs Teddie (Persona 4)
Light
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)- i vs Archer (Final Fantasy Tactics)- iiiiiiiii
Amalthea (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky)- iiiii vs Rody (Suikoden III)- i
Elephant (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Cyan Garamonde (Final Fantasy VI)- ii
Freelancer (Bravely Default)- iiiiiiiii vs Rico (Suikoden III)