Messages

1

Forum Games / Re: Nomic - Turn Twenty Six

« on: February 08, 2009, 09:00:10 AM »

329. Amendment to rule 323. Following each voting phase, a non-player (hereby referred to as the Mobb Proposer) that voted that phase is randomly selected via Hatbot. During the subsequent discussion phase, the Mobb Proposer is allowed to choose from the following:
a) Making a proposal (separate and independent of the one that the current player is proposing). This proposal is then voted on like any other during the next voting phase.
b) Foregoing the proposal and choosing a Mobb Proposer of their liking for the next phase instead of relying on the Bot of Hate.
c) Doing nothing!

The voting for the Mobb Proposer's proposal differs from norm in the following ways. Every eligible voter gets an additional vote to be used exclusively for this proposal - player's votes as counted with three times the normal weight. Rule 315 does not apply (players cannot choose to split up your votes or stockpile votes). Other rules associated with voting still apply so long as they are applicable (score-related voting rules cannot be applied to non-players, for instance).

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 10, 2008, 06:05:54 PM »

We would have. Eventually! But going after Cid so persistently night two and then going twice for Kilga doesn't really make much sense to me. So does not using the Hitman on Cid the first time, unless you had really limited uses on that?

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 10, 2008, 06:00:58 PM »

Why didn't you kill the cop? Seriously.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 10, 2008, 05:51:37 PM »

Glee~

If only Natsuki could be with us to see this day....

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 10, 2008, 12:44:41 PM »

Uhhh...  yeah.  I don't think there's even any debate on who's getting lynched today.  Tomorrow, sure, but not today. So even Kiro's role claim will give us not much.

Obligatory 'why did you not vote Kiro if it's so obvious who gets lynched today' question to Excal. You were the first person around, and made that particular post when Kiro was still at 2/5 of the votes needed for lynching.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 10, 2008, 08:07:28 AM »

Fufufu~

##Vote: Kiro

See him much like Bardiche, posting content-wise. My view of Kiro hasn't changed in that regard. Also, LAL worked already for us.

And I can't shake the meta reason that someone who played mafia here a lot would try to kill those investigated and 'cleared', so it's either Alex using some weird ploy or, well, someone new to this board. And as long as Alex is assured to be lynched if he doesn't find scum as we reach LYLO, it's all good.

No worries, my vote is hardly driven by such tasteless metagaming calculations.

No attack on me, either.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 09, 2008, 06:35:25 PM »

Actually, why do you consider Strago so townie? Call it curiousity.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 09, 2008, 04:33:34 PM »

Xanth: Two scum left, one of whom is a framer, for example. Not actually impossible, just very unlikely. I said as much!

I'd also appreciate it if you helped our cause by hunting scum more and finding mathematical reasons you're squeaky clean less~

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 09, 2008, 04:02:07 PM »

In case we mislynch today and I'm hit with the NK tonight, just wanted this out. Alex flipping insane cop would clear his targets from the moment we lynched Bardiche for me. Xanth would still hold a certain amount of suspicion from me since we don't know the last scum's abilities, if any (or even if it's the last one, sigh, let's hope for the best).

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 09, 2008, 12:54:57 PM »

The only potential problem I can see is if we have two scum left despite what we believe. But in that case, we'll see it with a potential LYLO announcement. To me, it would implicate Alex, but those of us making it to that point would surely be able to make their own conclusions.

Don't really like the way Xanth is trying to win the game via planning it all out, but I suppose we're in a place we could attempt that. Waiting on Affinity's claim feels contradictory to that stance. Even if Affinity claims doc (perhaps to escape lynch, say), would it actually matter to anyone who thinks he looks scummy?

In any case, what Alex said. If you're scum, please hang, and let's not waste 23.5 hours waiting on making that happen.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 09, 2008, 07:15:20 AM »

End of previous day: probably wouldn't have lynched Bardiche. The case on him was pretty much a combination of 'I don't like your case' and LAL. But at least it reminded me that LAL is pretty effective, so there's no reason not to rely on it again in the absence of something better. About the only people I absolutely wouldn't have joined in lynching yesterday were Alex and Xanth, because it would just have been counter-productive.

I suppose I could've gone along with the flow and slapped a vote on Bard when it was fashionable, but as I wasn't really seeing the case at the time I decided against that.

Moving on. Bardiche connections. Off the bat, I see Kilga, for the protracted back and forth which could have either been a smokescreen or ended up in bussing, Excal who was hounded persistently and chose to try and vote for another person at a time people were tired of the day and a fresh target might have diverted the lynch and Affinity for pushing for the other lynch target from the start. There is also myself, for completeness's sake, but I take my student council president duties most seriously and would never be involved in the murder of students and staff.

Of those, I'll accept Kilga as cleared unless someone else claims they were targetted or admits to roleblocking another player this night.

Strago: If we end up approaching LYLO (based on our assumptions of a 3-person scum team) without hitting scum, I believe we should lynch Alex. However, I also happen to think we should not, under any circumstances, lynch Alex before we're at that point. So yes, I'm intending to ignore Bardiche's last words, and just about any words from the point it was clear to him he was going down.

In any case, I'm going to place my vote on Affinity as well. That line he made about Kiro's content being acceptable, which Alex helpfully pointed out, is enough for me to push for answers. Kiro's participation is pretty much on Bardiche's level for me, and I've said as much the previous day.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2506.msg43443#msg43443
Affinity here tries to explain that line away with:

But if Affinity is, who isn't he fine with?

AndrewRouge for his response, and Kiro and Corwin for their lack of votes.  This isn't really new, however.

I'm sorry, what? This is selective quoting. Here is Alex's entire line (and the point it contains):

- Is alright with Kiro content-wise.  I'm certainly not!  But if Affinity is, who isn't he fine with?

It is made very clear Alex is talking about whose content Affinity is satisfied with, given Kiro gets a pass from Affinity. Affinity then proceeds to edit that line of inquiry and responds to a fragment of it which misleads the reader. It feels like an artificial way to get out of the hole he dug himself into.

##Vote: Affinity

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 09, 2008, 06:36:39 AM »

Was hit too hard by life the day before yesterday, considered asking for a modkill but there weren't really enough developments as is. Then yesterday, the day ended before I could dedicate the time to it. In any case, apologies for that.

Need about an hour now to catch up on today, will post afterwards.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 06, 2008, 07:01:49 PM »

Andrew, I think this is a case of reading too much into what amounts to semantics. I've made similar arguments before myself, true, but in this case TownAlex pretty much implies InsaneCopAlex and is thus synonymous with it, particularly given the context of the previous conversations debating Alex's alignment which frames such a statement. The possibility of Alex being town and lying has been considered and mentioned before, but I have also stated at that time that the possibility of players lying, even on town's side, constantly exists and thus is implied. There is no need to explicitly state it every time, I believe. Do we really want to amend every single sentence of analysis with 'UNLESS S/HE LIES'?

I also mentioned the potential Framer issue, so I'm not really sure where you're coming from re: terrible logic.

And since two people have requested an extension already, my stance on it is that I disagree. It is a useful tool to get conversation going when we are running out of time. We are neither running out of time at this point, nor is there a particularly heated and traffic-heavy discussion taking place. To get more time because many people aren't here (or CLAIM not to be here) may well lead to stagnation. Are there any new ideas or new cases being actively pursued at this time that can't be resolved in the time we still have? I don't believe so.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 06, 2008, 03:18:49 PM »

While I'm thinking about it, can I at least get people to agree that 'townAlex => townXanth', and hence 'scumXanth => scumAlex'? The point I'm making here being here that if you still think I could be scum that Alex must be my partner, so other possibilities should not be entertained. (The converse, 'townXanth => townAlex' and 'scumAlex => scumXanth' obviously do not necessarily hold and I'm not trying to claim they do, so if I do get killed at night, it's not like that would definitely clear Alex)

I'll agree with the caveat of a potential Framer in the works, Xanth. But yes, it pretty much is what I was getting at when I said that Alex's actions (and some of your own) pretty much tie the two of you together.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 06, 2008, 02:53:36 PM »

Something Bardiche says makes me take a second look at Kiro. I've already voiced my dissatisfaction with his participation and his reasons of voting Bardiche, but a particular line gave me pause on a reread.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2506.msg42627#msg42627

I'd have to give the copclaim greater weight though. It's something that isn't up to misinterpretation, given it's a mod reported Guilty result.

In case someone is having trouble seeing this, only the person himself, the mod and scum would believe beyond any doubt that someone who claims to be a cop with a guilty verdict on another player actually has such a verdict.

Kiro's disagreement on Bardiche's Excal case seems to draw from Excal's vote on Sopko day one. That's the only solid objection I could find in his words; the rest was vague statements that the case was weak and that he disagreed with it.

Kiro, I think I would like to request a more detailed break down on why you find the Excal case is wrong, given that assessment is one of your reasons for voting Bardiche. I would also like you to explain the certainty with which you accepted Alex's claim of receiving a guilty verdict for Tom.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 06, 2008, 11:09:32 AM »

Okay. The last posts feature goes back from the present, so that's how I looked over Bardiche's posts.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2506.msg42855#msg42855
Sacrificing vanilla town to vet a cop's sanity if you trust the cop's player is not actually a scummy move.


http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2506.msg42827#msg42827
Cid as Third Party suspicions. Seems to come out of nowhere.

Also:

Not what I was asking. "His one-track approach is pretty..."...what? Townish? Scummy? Clever? Crazy? Gassy? Use an adjective instead of an ellipsis. "It makes me wonder" and "I'm not sure what makes me dislike it" are not terribly helpful. Sure, you say you dislike it, but you say it in such a fashion that's easily brushed off as nothing later at your convenience.

His one-track approach is pretty I cannot bring it under words so I am making use of implied dislike for the one-track approach. If I have only gut to rely on I can't make it any clearer than I have. I don't rely solely on logic in this game─if I did I'd have little to rely on for myself.

Really dislike this exchange. It's one thing to not be clear in your posts, and quite another to rebuff people who call you out on it instead of actually correcting your behavior. As town, your role would be to hunt scum and avoid becoming a target, which means you need to be clear and legible.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2506.msg42605#msg42605

Thirteen, then. Doesn't invalidate my comment, just shows a little inattentivity/scattermindedness on my behalf.

...which is bad.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2506.msg42597#msg42597

I get a sense of wishy-washy-ness in here. Even when you lay down any stances that you do, they are usually presented in an unsure-of-yourself tone that could give you the opportunity to change your mind quickly and easily.

Not to mention your point on me is completely wrong and your thought process on Cid is hard to follow given you start with disliking his attitude and end up "inclined to think [he's] notScum".

I can't be sure of anything in a game where manipulation and deceit reign highly. The only person I can trust is myself, so I'm quite sorry if I cannot be certain of "HE'S SCUM" or "HE'S TOWN". Even if I did solidly place my stances in such a manner I could still change them quickly and easily - after all, the game is deceit and trickery. Solid ideas don't mean jack shit if something suddenly changes and you find yourself second-guessing yourself. To me, the matter is entirely moot and I fail to see the problem. I am only dead-certain of people if I can be sure of myself that nothing they say changes my mind.

Is it really that difficult to see that the benefits of taking firm stances and then, when they happen to change, explaining the train of thought/logic that lead to the new stances? Or how such an approach is preferable in all ways to being wishy-washy and cautious?


A lot of posts go along the lines of 'not much time, just a quick post' and the like. Many more yet are about his own defense. While Bardiche's presence is above that of Excal, Kiro or Affinity, I'm not sure the actual content is in some way superior. I'll reiterate my request for Bardiche to talk about fresh things and be more decisive about it, before I actually go for a vote. There's enough players and enough stated opinions out there to have one, and not just for Excal, surely. Not averse to lynching Bardiche if the material I wish to see is not produced to my satisfaction.

Affinity: That clarifies things for me.

Xanth: Are you trying to imply something about Kiro and Bardiche with your visual aid?

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 06, 2008, 09:30:43 AM »

Yes, Kiro, you did. But it's really a more verbose post than the one where you eventually ended up placing a vote. There is nothing substantial there I can see that goes "--and that is why I think Bardiche is scummy."

Why do I find it important? Because a weak support of a case like that makes for a great defense should Bardiche get lynched and flip as town. "Well I was only thinking Kilga sounded persuasive so I went along with it" and the like.

I also strongly disagree with the sentiment of 'let scum kill Alex'. They may never do so, and not only if Alex is scum himself. It could be a calculated gambit on the part of scum. Unless Alex manages to survive long enough to find us all our scum in the next few days thus leading to our win, I hold the opinion that he should be lynched before we reach any LYLO situation. Again, though, I feel that today is too early for that.

This leads into Andrew's case. While I certainly agree with the issues Andrew finds with Alex, and have my own from before (which were never truly addressed, I must note), an Alex lynch today gives us little. I would like to wait at least a day on it and hear from Alex tomorrow, first.

Still reading on Bardiche while getting distracted, walls of text, so sad, etc.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 06, 2008, 07:53:17 AM »

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2506.msg42896#msg42896

Affinity here seems to be saying, in his second paragraph, "I think Alex is genuinely a cop. But he's playing badly and not looking for scum the way he should be, so let's lynch him."

And I don't get how you would vote Alex with those reasons. If you'd gone with something such as 'Alex can't possibly be a cop, he acts too scummy for it' I could understand the push to lynch him, but the way it's presented is entirely too strange. Given you made the first vote against Alex, please convince people they should be actually voting for Alex. Also, I would like to hear your thoughts on Bardiche.


On other matters. Alex keeps on clearing Xanth and otherwise tying himself very closely to him. First, the rationale was the events at the end of day 1. Then, it was 'scum Tom' being so hard on Xanth's case. THEN, it was Alex's investigation clearing Xanth beyond any doubt (and there are other things, such as day 1 attacks on each other early on, which scum often go for). Given that Alex himself admits they were both targets for town, and then proceeds to castigate town as being massively wrong on both such cases, I feel that this is all strong evidence of Alex and Xanth being on the same team.

I don't think it needs to be actionable just yet, especially since there is, after all, a reasonable possibility they are both town despite coming off as scummy. Merely wanted to get it out while there's time, since I don't know how long I could go on without my Natsuki.


I'm leery of trying to go for Alex or Xanth at this juncture, as I've mentioned. That leaves Excal, Bardiche or a new case. I see the value of hounding Excal and forcing him to participate more satisfactory, but not if he isn't around to actually do so. That would merely waste my efforts at this time. And Bardiche's case had caught quite a few eyes.

The main charge about Bardiche seems to be trying to coast by without sticking his neck out, essentially being reactive rather than active, as Strago had put it. Thus, I would like to request Bardiche to either show some of that lacking activity.


Kiro: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2506.msg42951#msg42951

Okay, so you go and look at Alex and then you jump on the Bardiche train? The reason seems to be 'I don't understand your cases and disagree with your lynch target'. Now, I can see reasons for Bardiche to seem scummy. But which of your stated reasons for voting him actually relate to Bardiche being or acting scummy?


I have my own Bardiche thoughts, they would follow today in a separate post.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 05, 2008, 03:42:56 PM »

Yes. I would know the rules, I alluded to them myself in my post, Xanth. My question was why you ignored the possibility altogether.

Your response right now feels like an evasion. Your entire opening post for today explained how Alex couldn't possibly be scum. It ignored a very real possibility of Alex indeed being scum, which you believed to be a crazy gambit no one would try. But why would a real cop need to call Alex out now? What exactly would a real cop achieve with that at this point? Just as there could be no cops in the game, there could easily be two, especially as sanities may come into the picture. Claiming would be bad in all scenarios unless this hypothetical cop hit Tom or Cid night one, and Alex night two (or Alex, then Cid, I suppose). Otherwise, he either risks squabbling with town's other cop, or letting scum know who he is.

None of this featured in your post, which pretty much called on any cops to claim straight away.

Strago: Since you keep on repeating Xanth's sentiments, this question is for you as well. What exactly could this hypothetical second cop tell us now if he doesn't have proof of his sanity or a read on Alex?

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 05, 2008, 02:50:27 PM »

I find this unlikely, Miss Suzushiro. Your suggestion ignores that the cowardly scum have tried to kill Miyu the first night, and failed to do so.

You suggest the existence of a Hitman, yet for this coincidence to occur and for Miyu to die the second night, it would need to be a Hitman with several uses, or scum had inexplicably used someone else during the first night to kill. While not impossible, I have to wonder why you would ignore such and decide that Miss Sugiura is quite innocent of any wrong-doings.

I also have to wonder why, even when you allude to the possibility of a Roleblocker, you call it a town Roleblocker. Would it not be more likely that in the absence of a Hitman, scum might have a Roleblocker, who would cooperate with another scum to kill Miyu? And yet, I find no mention of this in your theories.

There is more in your words that I disagree with, but I would like to receive an answer on this, first.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 05, 2008, 01:42:04 PM »

And a brand new day begins, Miss Sugiura.

So I wasn't Natsuki's most important person after all....

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 04, 2008, 08:43:29 PM »

Fair enough, Cid. Going to bed, so it'd have to be something else who ends then day, then. As long as we don't waste the entire 24 hours waiting on the deadline to pass it's all good.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 04, 2008, 08:29:11 PM »

It's pretty clear that the majority wants to gamble on Alex. Alright, then. I'll change my vote to get us the results when Rat wakes up in a couple of hours, unless there's some sort of last-minute objection to that. If so, please include the reason for extending the day.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 04, 2008, 07:29:02 PM »

This is the main reason I don't want to lynch Alex regardless of Tom's flip.

That sentiment from Kilga bothers me . The overly-ecstatic comments from earlier in the day, when people were suggesting that being so far ahead, it's okay to relax a bit, also bother me.

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Forum Games / Re: My-Hime Mafia

« on: December 04, 2008, 07:06:27 PM »

Cid, to clarify, are you talking about real days or game days when you go about 'tomorrow'?

Strago: Again, duly noted. I do find your points valid.