Messages

1001

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:03:06 PM »

Usually Scum or Town Rat's posts usually contain few flaws, even when he's scum he makes valid arguments

You, sir, are insane! Just.. insane! This attitude is stupid! It is far too trusting! RECONSIDER! If you want me to post, yell at me to post, and don't try and suck up to me!

HOWEVER, you have indeed caught an interesting point out of Alex, that is that he is willing to be trusting Ciato for being great even as he slams you for trusting me! (The fact that Ciato is, in fact, great and town like every game nonwithstanding. She's my polar opposite.) Well done! Alex, explain yourself!

Tsukihime was won due to you, as I recall, going "Well, I've thought this is a good idea. Let's do the opposite!" and it turned out to be right, i.e. not because you figured your role was double-edged or anything. Besides, whether Tsukihime  was won or not is meaningless, we all know just *how* it was played, and that's what's important when you compare arguments in one game to another.

The vote for me on Alex does NOT look bad because there was a good and solid reason behind it, that being that ALEX SUCKS and thinks I am always scum. Your vote, however, was totally random and just happened to land on someone who already had a vote. I don't actually think this is bad.

1002

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 07, 2008, 11:57:16 AM »

Anyway. Alex is describing this as Tsukihime 2.0 and commenting that things are being obscured by newbie players.

Thing is, the only *real* newbie player present is LadyDoor. What SHE'S done is lurk. I will totally be all over her if she keeps up with the lurkerering by the time I get up tomorrow (and it's closer to deadline.)

<->

I don't think Smodge is behaving terribly scummy. That is to say, I believe the scumminess of his early vote on day 1 has been severely overstated, and he has not been acting out of character at all. I really, really dislike his play (it's very reliant on others, as has been pointed out), but it's what he does. All the time. He needs to stop. I think being conscious of his own ineptitude could be seen as a good thing? Maybe?

<->

Every time I read what Dread Thomas says I want to vote for him more. I'm troubled that despite this, it's.. well, like Smodge, he usually seems to be inflammatory in his posts and always acts as if it's ridiculous that anyone could conceive of him as scum. In particular...

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black. I'm sure I've been more active than you.
By the way, it's "more quiet" or "quieter", not both. Though, I've corrected your grammar, so according to TouHou mafia I must be scum >.>

You say you'd like to hear my thoughts? Why is that exactly? Does asking for my thoughts mean you don't have to provide your own?

My thought on Lady Door are a few minor slipups, but that doesn't convince me that she's scum. I don't buy into the whole 'bad play = scum or bad town so lynch both' thing. So nothing there from me yet.

THIS POST seems just.. so snarky and pointlessly mean. He's also acting here like it's a great sin to question him.

<->

Ultimately, we're stuck. We've got to realise that both Smodge and EvilTom are no longer newbies, even if they continue to act like some. They shouldn't get away with this. And in most games, they don't. Like Alex has said, it's easy to make safe cases on them (as has been done) and doing so won't shake things up at all. So.

<->

*Nitori spins... 180.

<->

##Vote: QR

LET'S DO IT. QR! You posted, what, three times in day 1? One self-confessed jokevote on me, asking what a meme is, and defaulting to LAL! Day 2! You vote Smodge to get things started! Well, get this: I don't think Smodge is scum! I think Smodge is.. well.. Smodge! You are also keeping a CLOSE EYE on Lady Door for not being the typical newbie... well, I don't think she's playing any worse than I was the first few times around (I know I was scum shut up I don't mean it like that), so obviously, our expectations for average newbie play are probably lower than what's actually likely.

Does her being a newbie actually have any bearing on anything? At all? We should judge things on their merits. So far she's seemed competent enough to me with only lurkerness being relevant. Her extra vote seems more reckless than having some kind of malicious intent.

I keep reading her posts (well.. post) and I keep reading reiterations (a reiteration) of how standard play should be. Alex has come forward with the relatively bold statement that this game is similar to Tsukihime and that we're messed up between bad play (not calling them newbies anymore) and easy arguments.

I'd like her to explain her thoughts on Lady Door a bit more concisely and without prejudice for newbieness or not. As an experiment, if nothing else. I'd also like her to reconsider her vote for Smodge, given that I believe he is playing like he normally does, and that the WIFOM over Ciato's death is meaningless.

<->

NINJA'D THREE POSTS I DON'T CARE i'll read them momentarily.

1003

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 07, 2008, 11:31:01 AM »

If we're going to split hairs...

The reason I am not producing content is not because I am scum,

I believe this is what he's referring to. It's implied that he's saying "I am not scum!"

1004

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 07, 2008, 08:00:51 AM »

Hokay. Smodge's random vote for Ciato being suspicious + Ciato dying after calling him out on that. I don't think this is really true. Ciato did OMGUS Smodge, after all, and then seemed to contemplate that he misspoke. So I don't think she was really pressuring him that day. And thus I don't think Smodge, were he scum, would kill her over that.

Frame? Eh, possible. Ciato is dead because scum hate Ciato anyway? More possible. I am hesitant to draw many (any) conclusions from this.

More likely reason for Smodge being scum? Ok, I can see how his random vote might be odd... only, well, the game was still kind of in the random day 1 stage. I've seen Smodge pull the whole 'Well, time to retract my random vote!' thing before (in Touhou, iirc). So... I think this is actually in-character for him.

Hate for constant references to SERIOUS MODE as distinct from JOKEVOTING MODE, I've ranted about this in the discussion thread, though.

<->

Another thing that caught my eye. We've got EvilTom going to Smodge that 'you're asking me for thoughts?! perhaps because you don't want to give your own!' right after Smodge made a fairly sizable post- and you haven't actually said too much today, either. I don't think Smodge is out of line there.

Still, I don't really think either he or Smodge qualify for the hated label of 'Lurker'. Frankly, I don't think we have any lurkers at this point, and I'll need to give some time before I consider using that word on someone again. (I mean, even I'm only posting just now.) More content from... uh.. EVERYONE!

<->

Addendum. Smodge, you mentioned that you think my opinions are usually accurate. Frankly, I see this as more an attempt to curry favour with me than anything else, given the games you've participated with me in. Now... of course I want people to look at my arguments and agree with me. But I like to think you're going to read the argument and actually understand it's value instead of just going 'yep, Rat's awesome'. (And I AM awesome. But still. You see what I'm getting at?)

1005

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:30:54 AM »

(oh yeah that's hammer.)

1006

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:30:16 AM »

Like, yeah, whatever.

##Kill: Otter.

1007

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:29:40 AM »

Geez, it's like he's doing everything he can to look like a bomb without claiming bomb.

This is FREAKING STUPID.

1008

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:25:18 AM »

Well. Then. Since I'm going to kill you monetarily, claim it now anyway.

1009

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:22:49 AM »

Uh yeah if anyone hammers this early in the day, I know who I'm voting for tomorrow. I don't really have the time or energy to go through stuff right now- I hope the day is still going when I get back. I'll definately be back long before the day ends, so I see no reason to smash a hammer now.

I'd like Alex and QR to substantiate their cases somewhat, I *guess*.

1010

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:17:48 AM »

woah woah WOAH we're at -1 to hammer already. Just, you know. Saying.

1011

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:16:31 AM »

Fifteen minutes to go.

1012

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:09:07 AM »

Oh I get it. Must read more than one post. Right. ##Unvote.

1013

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:03:20 AM »

The only thing I'm wary about is that Otter has yet to claim as well. Hopefully he can do that before I leave.

1014

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:01:53 AM »

huh what explain what you're talking about, Tom. ##Vote: EvilTom until I understand. o-o

1015

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 07, 2008, 12:00:56 AM »

Ok, QR.

I have to leave the house in 30 minutes. Before I do, I'll kill someone. No exceptions this time. I'm not going to be back for lots of the day and discussion will have to get in a new direction again one way or the other.

1016

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 11:45:48 PM »

Waaaaait.

Andy, you're saying that Cid's power, regardless of if it exists, will not prove him, correct?

THEN you turn around and say he should unleash it anyway just to prove he has it?

No! This is wrong! He should unleash it *if there is a good reason to do so* and if it's not going to actually prove anything beyond possession, then we have one result that proves nothing and one result that shows he's lying at the cost of our normal lynch! I don't like that line of thinking at all.

1017

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 11:43:01 PM »

The more I think about Alex's roleclaim, the less good a scum option it seems to me. Shale said that he thinks scum could be going for killing us all off faster... but... the daykill is actually BAD for scum, you know? The speed this is immaterial, honestly, it's how the kills are distributed, and two town to one scum looks good no matter how you slant it. The validity of this option comes from staying out the radar long-term.

OK hasn't posted and I don't really want to vig him as a compromise candidate when his situation seems better suited to modkill (lurking? No, I don't think he's here to lurk.)

I am actually getting leery of leaping around from person to person and ending up with half the town claimed on day 1. So.

I intend to whittle this down somewhat. Out of the present people around, four people are under the greatest scrutiny: Otter, Alex, Cid, and OK.

-I think Cid and Alex's claims are both indicative of towniness rather than scumminess. I would not like to lynch either of them at this point. If I had to choose between them, I would attack Cid at this point. Yes, either could be faked, but this forces that player to walk a razor wire for the rest of the game.

-Otter has made an odd turn of phrase earlier. I don't believe that abandoning the potential for two kills EVEN ON DAY ONE for a shot of governor is a particularly wise move, and I don't think scum get 'hemmed in' as much as Excal believes. I still find his earlier vote on Cid bizzare; the one where he didn't actually explain it all and said 'a cid train is fine too', iirc.

-I don't think we should lynch OK at all and should instead allow the mod to do their thing with him.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Otter

Awaiting further discussion, vigkill is imminent (yes, I'm aware of the irony of me constantly reiterating 'vigkill is imminent' and then not following through, it's making me cry more than anyone.) Roleclaim out of Otter could be required at this point.

1018

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 11:00:52 PM »

The thing is, Otter, there's *no point* discussing Cid as a daykill candidate. He can't govern that away. This is a topic better saved for after the daykill. We SHOULD put this off till later. >_>

1019

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 10:51:11 PM »

*kicks Shale for not saying it =p*

1020

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 10:48:14 PM »

*kicks Shale for not weighing in on Alex clearly*

1021

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 10:38:22 PM »

I'm here and itching to kill someone. The current person up for execution is Alex. Unless there is a flurry of opposition, like, right now, vigkill is coming momentarily (within the next thirty minutes or so.) Please post and quite clearly say you're against it if so.

<->

Allow me to be the first in this flurry of opposition!

His claim has me wanting to let Alex linger around longer. I don't think I'm going to last forever and he'll be taken to task over this if he lacks daykilling powers upon my (doubtlessly) untimely demise.

I disagree with Otter and Cor that letting Cid prove his powers to us is a worthy option. Governor, again, is one of those awesome non-roles that exists, much like doublevoter, solely so one person exercises an inordinate amount of power of the lynch that doesn't give us any extra results. The only thing *worth* using it for is to... confirm a townie. I find Otter's attitude very unusual (especially from him) and at odds with his desire to set the pacing for a more brutal game.

In my mind, a chance to kill scum is worth more than confirming one townie. If we absolutely must bring Cid's case to question, only THEN would I be amenable to this argument. In any case, we have to target someone else today.

I kind of agree that Otter makes a tempting target as well. It's actually this line that made me raise an eyebrow-

If my jump to the Cid train was the most eyebrow-raising thing I've done so far in this game, I'd say I'm doing pretty well.

It looks like an idle comment, but it doesn't feel like something a townie would say at all. He's still going after OK, i.e. a lurker, i.e. someone we DON'T want to hit with a vigkill.

I'll say again, I'm far more comfortable killing someone who is not-Alex than Alex himself.

1022

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 02:11:14 PM »

I'm going to bed soon, and pondering on the best way to do this. Frankly, the way Alex has gone and said he needs 16 hours before he can post again irritates me a lot, given that he's one of the leading men for today (and has repeatedly argued that we should be decisive and quick and such. Frankly, he could've roleclaimed already, and in fact I wonder if this would not be preferable.)

I don't see any easy way to decide things and thus I'm going to issue an ultimatum to the rest of the town- I'm going to sleep for 8-9 hours or so. When I wake up, I want to vigkill someone. I would MOST like to vigkill my current target (LadyDoor), but Alex and Cid are the leading competitors at the moment and I would rather go for Cid over Alex.

If the rest of you could come together over this that would be grand; if you absolutely must have MORE TIME for claims after I wake up (and give that I said the deadline would be for halfway through, which is nowish, I'm already being weak @_@) then everyone better agree on it because I kind of... don't and won't be easily swayed again. I don't think it's necessarily unwise to ask for claims at this point (and in fact want one from Cid at least, myself.) If other people agree with me and pile up the votes on SOMEONE that would be GREAT.

I think it would be best if we directed our discussion along existing lines, as there just won't be enough time to discuss new cases. I say this while fully aware my vote is still on Lady Door, who I feel is one of the people taking a strong stance against Alex which I still feel is unwarranted.

1023

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 10:45:50 AM »

Ground rules again, eh. I'm game for this.

Hokay. Ideally.

1) I will lynch whoever has the most votes at the halfway mark. Town should get it's frigging act together and get roleclaims and whatnot out here before then with enough time to spare. I encourage people to vote early and often and the like. I also encourage people to have a clear head and not just latch on to a single case when others are floating around and are generating more discussion.

2) We will NOT utilize extensions frivolously, in fact I'd rather not use them at all at this point. However, I appreciate that there are problems in that sometimes people go missing and whatever. If we DO use an extension, that basically gives us a total of 48 hours to discuss the vigkill. If we get an extension, that's it- I WILL kill whoever has the most votes at that time (or as soon as I can afterwards, whichever.)  We MUST get stuff done by then.

3) Day 1 is an exception to the above rule due to length and a few demands on this. I apologize for not really covering this earlier. I won't allow a repeat of today.

4) I'm ignoring anonymous votes of any kind, claimed or not. I would like to retain executive power, as it were.

5) I'll say it now, I guess; if I actually live until LYLO, all the previous rules are void. Do people have a problem with this? My reasoning is that the game changes considerably at this point (it's dangerous to cast votes; scum are close to having a majority; roles and such might exist and mess things up and so on.) *Unless it is LYLO I will always follow town majority.*

My thoughts are pretty simple. I feel I'm putting this power at town's disposal. Like I said, though, it's still my power, and regardless of what you all think, I know I'm town, and I take that into account when I say my vote is a tiebreaker and I retain power at LYLO and such. Put yourself in my situation and think about it. I'm not a dumb tool, I have a voice and my own will. I trust myself more than anyone. And that's it.

1024

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 10:12:08 AM »

And I'm falling into groupthink, huh.

To rephrase. I am in favour of waiting for claims assuming nobody else speaks up about preferring a faster deadline at this point in time. Apologies for not being clear.

1025

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 10:07:56 AM »

Finally caught up. The last two posts bother me, as do the requests to wait on a claim/defense from Alex and Cid earlier. What's the point of setting a rule (set deadline, Rat vigs on it; Rat vigs earlier if we're -1 to hammer) we really intend to follow except, you know, not this time. But surely, tomorrow and onwards! Yeah, whatever. If Alex/Cid are granted this chance to flail/deflect and I happen to end on the vig block day 2, I certainly want to be given the same chance and any arguments for why I shouldn't be while they should are bullshit. (Not that I want or expect this to happen, y'know, but what better way to make a case than using yourself as an example?)

I agree with most of this. I don't actually want to extend the deadline. I'm faced with the reality that several people have requested that we do extend it to allow for roleclaims and I can't just ignore that. I'm forced to weigh between 'Should I kill him, despite the fact that a roleclaim may change everything and I'm thus potentially denying us info?' or 'Should I let him live, despite that it is going against my previous hard line?'

iirc, alex, cid, andy, and myself are presently in favour of waiting for claims. Is anyone else going to weigh in on this?

<->

Rat: I disagree with your decision to ignore Mr. Anon. It's pointless to debate whose side the vote belongs to (it's usually town, once it was scum), but it certainly counts towards a real lynch. While I understand your reasoning in disregarding it... this is a 'houserule' you're making for your dayvig. The more it happens, the less it is town's second lynch and more something you're ultimately controlling. I can't help but recall VSM's cautionary arguments, now. Would it be our lynch, except the deadline isn't a deadline, not all votes are equal (yours is already a tiebreaker, you stated, and anon doesn't count... what else works differently?). Eh. I don't like it, and I just know more exceptions will keep on coming.

Why should I pay attention to an unclaimed anonymous vote? This is an easy call for me. Frankly, I'd rather have the ultimate final lynch decision power in my hands than some mystery guy who I have no idea about and who may be town or scum. In my eyes, doublevoting is a gay power that serves exactly one pro-town purpose and that's to make sure we actually get a lynch in games where you must have majority by deadline. I'm giving it exactly the amount of credence it deserves.

I think you're exaggerating how much I'm shifting things and not really taking into account that the game isn't static and I have to modify how I play.

But let's be clear here, it is my power. *I* have to make these calls and someone is going to disagree with me either way. Unless there is a strong town consensus one way or the other I'm going to make these calls. I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking this attitude towards grey areas.