Messages

1026

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 09:35:41 AM »

Gonna reiterate that anonymous votes don't count to the daykill.

I also at this stage would likely vote for Cid over Alex if it came down to that.

1027

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 09:17:49 AM »

Hokay.

I dislike the way this Alex train is lagging up and find his detractors far more suspicious than himself. Firstly, there's been repeated claims of him, well, *repeating his claims* as if it's a bad scummy thing. LadyDoor is the foremost exemplar of this argument, as shown here-

That currently leaves me suspicious of Alex (repeated attacks, and setting up a straw man) and Andrew (for completely missing out on the extension discussion, either for or against, despite posting in the midst of the argument and citing lynch deadline problems). Primarily? Alex's harangue leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

As far as I can tell, Alex's so-called 'repeated attack' happened exactly ONCE at this point and not only that, it was in response to Cid's original reply. He already outlined why he didn't find that satisfactory and I see absolutely nothing wrong with his attitude there. In fact, can you highlight the posts you think actually consist of a repeated attack?

And then you actually change gear completely with this.

That's my beef with Sir Alex. It's NOT about extension as a concept. It's about extension as a means to help us make the most of Day 1 and this dayvig power. That is why I cited those other people -- they've all made that distinction after a fashion. That's why I keep frowning at Alex -- every time he posted, he made it sound as if a vote for extension was stupid on the basis that "more time = more waffling/indecision/procrastinating." I'm all for someone deciding that they don't like extension. Awesome. What I don't like is when discussion moves past the general into the specific -- in this case, why this Day 1 in particular is a great candidate for extension -- but one person stays back in the realm of general without acknowledging that this case might be different (or why it's not).

So... are you attacking Alex because he set up a straw man? Because he's been too forceful? Because you don't like where he stands on the extension thing, which shouldn't actually be an issue but is anyway? I don't know anymore. I'm going to ask you to reiterate your argument again. And until you do, I'll be here. ##Unvote, ##Vote: LadyDoor

<->

Cid: I don't like what I'm seeing. What he IS doing is posting extensively, which isn't what I feel he did as scum in Touhou. I'm not fond of his content; his early vote at Otter and such, and more recently his DIRE THREAT towards Alex and Otter that if they keep on the path they're taking, they'll LOOK BAD.

This seems like pretty typical scaremongering to me and I can't make up my mind if he's being genuine or trying to get out of a sticky situation. Or, well, both.

<->

It seems there's pressure to not vigkill before claims... and I hate this. We need to get our act together and have things actually set up before the deadline as has been said. I'm leaning towards letting it happen this time, but in the future there will be no exceptions.

1028

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 07:05:08 AM »

Just while I'm skimming, my kill should happen in about 8 hours.

1029

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 04:37:59 AM »

Ah Kilga we DO have an extension going at the moment.

<->

I don't actually know what the beef with Alex is supposed to be. As far as I can tell, it begins when he votes for Cid on grounds of turning the debate over an extension into something worth voting over. After reflection, I agree with this to a point (I DO think an extension was still called for today. But I'm going to *try* to not use debate over this as a tell one way or the other from now on. I can't make any promises because that's all anyone seems to be talking about, though.)

I'd like Lady Door to tell me exactly what I'm missing from Alex that supposed to implicate him, because I'm just not seeing it. And speaking of Lady Door, you HAVE, in fact, commented on the extension issue (in a quote in your own post, to boot)

As far as I can tell, what Alex is actually doing is calling out Cid for equating being against extensions with being scummy and placing an odd vote on Otter- which, to my mind, had little more justification than Corwin's.

1030

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 06, 2008, 02:08:30 AM »

Or I can do it RIGHT.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Strago

1031

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 06, 2008, 02:08:00 AM »

So uh yeah twenty minutes to go, I see nothing forthcoming. Right.

##Vote: Strago

1032

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 06, 2008, 12:50:45 AM »

You mean you think that EvilTom misspoke.

Still waiting for Strago etc will hammer him shortly before deadline if he doesn't speak, there can be no mercy!

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Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 06, 2008, 12:49:44 AM »

It is very, very hard to not make a snide remark. oops too late.

<->

Okay! Anyone ELSE want to claim responsibility for that vote? If VSM is a doublevoter and doesn't realise it I guess we'll find out as time goes on. Since we can't verify the origins of that vote, though, I'm not going to take it into account with midday lynches.


<->

As far as I know, I have no limit to who I can kill. The arguments over timing are great and all but I feel that my original decision to kill at the halfway point each day remains the best. The basic fact is that if we kill any later, we cut off the more involved discussion that goes into the second lynch; kill any earlier and the same applies to the first.

Concerns that a particular party might exert more control over one lynch than others aren't that valid because...

1) In order to do so reliably, they'll give themselves away.
2) And when you take out any population of the game, you are going to get more town than scum. So it's highly likely that the lynch will still (mostly) be in the hands of town regardless.

Alex is going to have to get over days not rocketing forward at the speed of light; I feel the halfway mark each day is quite reasonable. It's better to set a deadline here than have none at all; I'll recind my earlier thoughts and state that if we DO get -1 to hammer within the first few hours, I'll probably finish the job early.

<->

OK still hasn't posted, thanks to the extension he'll have had PLENTY of time and there's just no excuse. Our replacement will naturally have to post as well.

The whole 'Rat isn't yet cleared of suspicion!!!111' thing is getting kind of old. Let's hear it when you actually have something suspicious on me.

Corwin, people playing slightly different in terms of posting times doesn't really matter much at all. That you mentioned it is odd. It's also kind of invalid because Otter has been called out for not posting early an awful lot recently and it seems unfair to act as if doing the opposite is worthy of mention. And Cid, I don't think his reasons for voting Otter were intended to be nonsense or jokevotey at all, really. Lacking in much strength, perhaps! But there WERE reasons and they weren't clearly dumb.

<->

Lady Door, there is PLENTY of logic behind my decision. As everyone has no-doubt noticed, the game has been propelled into serious mode from the get-go, which was part of my intention. My power needs to be used and using it in this fashion is very pro-town. I could have randomly died tonight and not have had a chance to exercise it. Discussion has been propelled in meaningful directions. I believe having two lynches that are dicussed over a relatively short time period and yet do indeed have real and useful information in them is going to be of more benefit to town than one day 1 lynch of complete randomness.

<->

I kind of want to hear what Otter's got to respond to Cid with. I've got to say I haven't really liked people coming out and saying 'we don't need no extension', not with the way the game has started late and the way I forced it into taking a dramatic turn from the get-go.

1034

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 05, 2008, 11:29:18 PM »

Smodge: I will STILL berate people for gutclaims in this game if that's all they've got. I loathe reading that particular argument. It has not suddenly become a good idea this game or anything, it's still BAD and you won't get away with just saying "I think xyz for no reason" on my watch!

<->

Hey Tom aren't you still voting for Strago? That's not giving him the benefit of the doubt. Which you shouldn't really be doing anyway, but I digress.

"Smart scum play" and "Valid town play" are very often synonymous. This is equivalent to going around and saying "but he COULD BE SCUM" and reiterating paranoia doesn't usually get us very for.

Alex is using Ciato as a scapegoat what? Last I checked, he was voting for Smodge. o-o

Strago getting lynched for lurking is fine, I would vote him myself right now but that'd be hammer. Do we NEED majority to lynch, though? 'cos then I'll have no hesitation.

What do you mean by 'effort not to get into townie-fights'? You can't put pressure on people and be strong about your arguments with an attitude like that; if you ARE going to question someone you might as well go the whole way.

Edit: I'll be voting for Strago at this point over Alex, so.. yeah.

1035

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 02:01:10 PM »

So uh VSM is that anonymous vote your doing?

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Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 12:14:39 PM »

The strangest thing I've got on Cor so far is calling out Otter on, well, being here. I don't really like how he tries to justify it with 'I don't like weirdness', either. I don't really have that much of a problem jabbing Otter over questioning me 'cos I feel it was kinda of odd myself.

Anyway, other people are calling VSM's play an example of 'bad town play' owing to how he's actually come out and discussed the issue. I utterly LOATHE how he's gone on about night roles, but... I can't deny that many games as of late have had large numbers of roles and they've had large impacts on the game in the past.

I guess my real argument is that games *shouldn't* come to depend on them, and *we* should not assume they will help us. I'm gonna tentatively let VSM off the hook and go after a lurker again. The same one, in fact. ##Unvote, Vote: OK. Let's see what you've got when you get here.

1037

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 05, 2008, 11:54:37 AM »

Anyway soooooooo everyone should bandwagon Alex! Memes are lame, and the 'rat is always scum' meme is the lamest of them all, 'cos it's totally untrue, and he needs to be bandwagon'd on day 1 more often. Better than bandwagoning me!

Also, Smodge has yet to post, and he should, so there's always another option.

1038

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 09:43:38 AM »

The difference between daykill vig and regular vig is the discussion time allowed and the necessity of claiming. In my case, everyone KNOWS I'm a vig and KNOWS how my kill works, and there's a chance to discuss things after the initial lynch (and thus perhaps reconsider the second target.)

For an NK vig, it's not such an easy choice, and I agree that it would be dangerous to simply lynch the target with the most votes after things go through. The only choice I *ever* had with this power was when to claim it, really.

As far as the pace of the game goes, I believe it's more important to one-up the scum in terms of kills if we can. I don't necessarily disagree that we may not have as much time to discuss things as we'd like, hence why I vote for extensions. I feel I'm making the best of what I've got to work with. I feel that not using this power is pointless.

1039

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 09:21:46 AM »

I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that roles win the game for town. Beyond elaborating on the fact that we have no idea what roles exist or even if they'll give us accurate information, I can only point out that the game is not a puzzle of simple logic, and if roles were the most important thing under consideration, I would develop a strong loathing for the genre.

My own vote does indeed count towards the majority. I reserve the privilege to exercise my democratic right. When it comes to decision making, I will only hold it higher than another in the event of a tie. Do I make myself clear?

Furthermore, do you agree with me, VSM... that the decor of this forum is simply divine?

1040

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 09:11:48 AM »

VSM, we don't learn anything from the nightkill. Anyone with roles should not reveal them on day 2 barring something amazing happening.

NOTHING AT ALL. We get a corpse. That's it. All we know about it is that scum wanted him dead, which tells us so little that it's next to nothing.

Regardless of if we DO have roles or not, we cannot rely on them to save the game for us. If we have a cop, he could randomly die tonight, or tomorrow night, or it doesn't even matter if he hasn't claimed and given results yet, or run into a framer. If we have a doc, he could be roleblocked or docbusted or *we just don't know* and we can't assume we're going to find out anything helpful based on flips and such.
 
We should kill people whenever we can. Forcing faster deadlines generates faster discussion. Selecting people to lynch generates discussion. There is every chance one of our suspects will be scum. It is more likely scum will slip up with the pressure on to make fast decisions and not crash into faulty logic.

Actually, I think it's good that I'm dictating the flow of the game and heaping on the pressure. I make no apologies for this. Note that I'm explicitly not setting out to randomly kill people, and am going to abide by the decision of everyone involved. I actually disagree that we should have REALLY short days at this point (it seems a bit pointless, the reality is that this game started late and a number of people might not have planned to get on board at this time.) But I still think that we should split the day and harvest as much information as possible.

We aren't going to learn more from the night 1 NK. We will, however, learn a few things from the lynch, most likely- and if we get a second before scum get to make their own choices, all the better.

Frankly, I find your idea that darkness is town's friend to be astonishing, and probably the worst thing I've seen all day. We may need the night to thrive, but that doesn't mean our kind can see in the dark.

##Unvote, ##Vote: VSM

Explain yourself. Why is it better not to kill? How do we get information out of night? How does our second kill lack information? How is not using this power, now that it's out in the open, any better than no lynch?

Edit: I am ninja'd by Excal. Curse him and his quick yet insightful tounge!

1041

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 08:42:12 AM »

Firstly, you *should* trust me. I'll say that flat out. It is in every way the wiser option for team scum to conceal their powers as much as it is (usually) for town to conceal theirs. I would get way more mileage out this power by concealing it- *unlimited or not*.

Secondly, it actually doesn't matter whether you trust me or not. I have a daykill power. If I'm lying about that, I'm pretty stupid. I intend to use it however town wants. If I don't, there's my death sentence right there.

Thirdly, why *shouldn't* you trust me, beyond the usual trustn01 mafia spirit?

<->

NIGHTKILLS DO NOT GIVE MORE INFORMATION THAN LYNCHES. WE DO NOT WAIT FOR NIGHTKILLS. NIGHTKILLS WAIT FOR US! We cannot guarantee any night actions that occur are going to be helpful or not! This game is not (I hope) role madness! We cannot wait for roles to play the game for us!

1042

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 08:27:24 AM »

I'm not being a dick and I'm not forced to day-vig at all, if I choose. If I have to explain why day-viging is cool, it's because it gives town an extra lynch, and town-controlled kills are the best thing ever because they *aren't scum controlled* and *aren't third-party controlled* and thus give us a good shot at, you know, winning the game someday.

This isn't PP. This are serious mafia. This are serious post. </andy>

1043

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 07:38:32 AM »

We CAN request an extension, though. And given that we have two lynches I think this will be wise to do- even though it's day 1.

##Time Extension (this is the final lap!)

<->

As the good Sir Alex has said, votes are indeed going to be at the least semi-serious. At present there is little to read into the statements of present individuals. For instance, while I do believe El Cideon is rather unseemly in his wild speculations as to my allegiences, I cannot deny that everyone is a suspect.

As far as things stand, however, I do agree that we must focus upon the silent. Naturally, upon their speaking, such pressure can be relieved. BUT UNTIL THAT TIME...

##Unvote, ##Vote OK An Oblivion Knight! Such a disturbing title! I am reminded of the Lasombra just by hearing this name...

<->

I must admit that I share a concern or two of the good Sir Corwin in that I had already stated my intentions before Otter's queries. I don't, however, believe that Otter presenting himself early in the night is anything to be worried about, or even consider odd.

1044

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 05, 2008, 07:27:36 AM »

I WANT A BLUE RESPONSE ON MEMES

THEY ARE UNBALANCED AND SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE GAME BECAUSE I CAN'T WIN PVPS AGAINST MEMES

KTHXBYE

1045

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 05, 2008, 06:57:51 AM »

!@#$!#%$@%#!^%

##Unvote, ##Vote: Alex

HATE FOR MEMES

1046

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 06:19:50 AM »

TOTAL CLARIFICATION PROCEEDS

I will lynch whoever has the most votes at the halfway mark- or, at least, as soon as I can *after* it passes (I'll never lynch before it, let's put it that way. I admit that I'm open to discussion on when, exactly, I should kill someone, but the purpose behind being firm here is that I want to kill someone every day, and it's best if we have some time to act on the new information. As I said, I have no problems with people requesting extensions if they want more time to discuss things.) If the votes are tied I'll pick whichever guy I think is the most suspicious.

Exceptional circumstances could easily occur and throw a wrench into my plans, but this is my game plan. I don't plan to use the lynch autocratically, if that is what you're worried about.

1047

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 05:48:56 AM »

Dayvig is a power that gives the town two lynches. It is best to use this power as early and often as possible. I'm forced to claim when I use the power anyway, so there'd be no hiding it at that point. Rather than pull a CK and just kill someone out of nowhere, I decided to be up-front.

1048

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 05, 2008, 02:40:03 AM »

SPROING!

1049

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 05, 2008, 02:37:45 AM »

##Vote: LadyDoor is a level 1 newbie, she can't come with us on VC runs yet.

1050

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 02:19:57 AM »

The fellow with the highest number of votes will be our default candidate; if there is a tie, the fellow who has my vote will be the one destroyed. I'd like people to actually vote because it's easier to keep track, and presents secondary candidates for discussion in the remainder of the day.

I intend to be rather harsh about my timing with this. If you want an extension, get it before the halfway point. The Tribune, with his powers of Modulatus, will surely be able to extend the night.