Messages

1126

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 22, 2008, 05:55:19 AM »

This post- http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5275#msg5275 says why in the end I don't want the vig used on Tai better than I have. Yeah, it's from the man himself, but it's pretty much what I think.

The whole 'I cannot tell you more, lest I be modkilled!' thing grates. A lot. Two people have claimed it which gives it a bit more credibility. This is probably more something about modding mafia in general, but.. geez, aren't there better ways to dissaude claims and such?

Strongly doubt either of Andy and Tai are scum, so I don't believe they're coordinating anything here.

I don't believe Andrew is scum thanks to his claimed power of dayvig. The other stuff is up for debate. Scum dayvig? Ultra-unlikely. In any case, I remain really suspicious of people voting for him right now, which means Otter joins the ranks of others such as QR. I don't buy Otter going 'you should be trying to draw kills with a 50% dodge chance!' when you've got such risky odds of losing a limited-use power. Admittedly, I think Andy should have used said way earlier than now if that's how it all worked. But I digress.

Moving back to the idea that a scum-Tai gambit at this point is a very risky thing to do- especially combined with the claims of a role like watcher (a very, very easy one to fuck up faking) to the point where I don't believe it's terribly likely at all. Hence, my actual vig choice of QR. It is the simplest explanation; Tai is in fact a miller, and QR is scum and got caught in a lie.

I honestly don't know what QR could say that would change my mind at this point, either. I could ask you to reiterate why you voted for Andy on day 2, or why you chose to claim when you did, but you've covered these already, and I've already not liked much about what you've had to say. There were *quite a few* reasons that Andrew could've been certain of not being killed, for instance (for all that it's dumb to let scum know). I don't feel that your roleclaim or the information we would get was helpful for you to divulge at that time (although it certainly turned out differently than anyone would expect,) and feel that you should've instead fought it out and tried to get someone else put on the block.

1127

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 22, 2008, 02:39:25 AM »

Ok, my suspicons began with QR and I'd call her as the more likely scum for the time being, but I'm not gonna contest that viging Tai before QR may well be the safer result. I'm a mite piqued by Hal thinking it likely that we'll off both of them today, so I do want to ask him which he thinks is more likely to be scum.

If we take the roles at face value (i.e. the obvious route), then one of them has to be lying. We could debate shenanigans all day- we won't accomplish much. I'm more interested in the debates coming out of Tai and QR themselves rather than others.

And now, I depart!

1128

Forum Games / Re: Pretty Princess Mafia - Main Topic (DAY 1)

« on: January 22, 2008, 02:07:37 AM »

Oho? The albino is calling *my* complexion hideous? No wonder you need to carry that sword, given that your apperance resembles a demon, but your grasp on reality is thin enough that you're hardly a danger in or out the competition.

1129

Forum Games / Re: Pretty Princess Mafia - Main Topic (DAY 1)

« on: January 22, 2008, 01:39:09 AM »

Now, ladies. Hurling crude jibes at each other is most definately inappropriate for the occasion. This is clearly the time to revel in my gifts, not your monumental flaws!

1130

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 22, 2008, 01:37:29 AM »

Cop sanity... maybe. The timing of that copclaim seemed odd- it was long before she was under any real danger, except from Andrew, well, not liking her. And naive cop + drawback stretches credibility for me. I dunno, though, it seems a bit more belivable to me than Tai as godfather. Why contest being confirmed town in this position? Especially when the cop claims to not be functional for the next day?

1131

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 22, 2008, 01:24:43 AM »

Candidates for Andy's kill include...

QR. I just don't get voting for Andrew after this roleclaim at all, regardless of if you think he's playing 'bad town' when he has a oneshot vig use that we can *definately* use. Up until now I've found her play fairly solid, but this, combined with the hasty-looking unvote Andrew/vote Cloud action means that I'm no longer willing to let her slide. It didn't seem like part of her criteria for unvoting Andy was the main reason not to- his role. I'd like you to explain just how you managed to come to the conclusion it was a good idea to vote for Andrew in the first place- did it just not occur to you that we can put him to use?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5003#msg5003 here's that vote.

asdf slowcop, Tai came up town... ok. I never really doubted you having a good reason to go after Tom or anything, but this doesn't clear up why you went after Andrew for me.

JKL; MILLERCLAIM WHAT WHAT WHAT I... I need a drink. ##Vote: QuietRain Obligatory, right? Right.

<->

Ciato. It... really comes down to her defence of Miasma. I cannot *stand* this idea that there's some kind of threshold where bad play becomes a towntell. Furthermore, I don't understand how people can really support these people as town. I agree with what Alex has said; awful play is easy to avoid. Especially for people who have games of mafia under their belt... which Miasma, apparently, does.

Relevant Links.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4718#msg4718
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4735#msg4735

<->

Corwin. He's mentioned that groupthink behaviour doesn't seem scummy to him, and... I dimly recall an incident in discworld where he zapped me for engaging in it? Or was that because I'm not usually prone ot it?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4897#msg4897

Anyway, this is just a small thing compared to how he's taking shots at Andrew. I've said it a few times myself; with the day 1 cop controversy over and done with, it still seems really, really strange to go after Andrew for trying to out actual cops. No matter how many times I read the Taishyr/Corwin posts, they remain impenetrable to me (as nobody seems to have a CLUE what the other is actually saying). Another bits that stood out was Corwin calling Tai's vote for him an OMGUS vote. Confusion as to the reason? Possibly, but Corwin seemed to think he knew what Tai was talking about, and his response to the attack seems very, very bizzare in that context.

This feud starts here and goes on and on and on...

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4911#msg4911


QR has a copclaim going for her at the moment. My main problems with Ciato stem from who and why she's defending, not who she's attacking. Corwin has come out with an argument that seems to make up intent that's not really plausible given the circumstances.

Given that it's hugely unlikely Andrew can really be considered trying to fish at the time when he did, why did you vote for him then? EDIT: I was going to vote for you here, but.. millerclaim? Uh. I'm gonna think about this.

Amusingly, I was thinking of calling Hal on lurkerness, but he's dodged that bullet by ninjaing me today. No problems there, then. I WOULD like to request a postfrom Shale, however, on who he thinks looks particularly scummy. He's chimed in at the end of day 2 with a few short posts and they do have stuff in them; not gonna vote him for lurking, but I am gonna ask him what he thinks about how the game has progressed as a whole and who he thinks looks scummy at present.

1132

Forum Games / Re: Pretty Princess Mafia - Main Topic (DAY 1)

« on: January 22, 2008, 12:29:07 AM »

Well, I certainly won't be recommending Pschy, who appears to be blind.

##Recommend: Ara! She's neatly set it out for us, let's give her a round of applause!

1133

Forum Games / Re: Persona Mafia Interest and Sign-ups

« on: January 22, 2008, 12:01:13 AM »

In, as always

1134

Forum Games / Re: Pretty Princess Mafia - Main Topic (DAY 1)

« on: January 21, 2008, 11:57:42 PM »

I don't understand! The contestants vote for each other? I'm not sure how this is supposed to be an impartial judging system.

Therefore, I'm calling this contest a sham! I refuse to recommend anyone until an explanation is given!

1135

Forum Games / Re: Pretty Princess Mafia - Signups

« on: January 21, 2008, 11:55:14 AM »

CONFIRMED!

1136

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 21, 2008, 01:22:19 AM »

Ok, to reiterate my original stance: I *don't* agree that cops should out lying cops as quick as they can, and I *don't* believe that one scum for one cop is worth a trade in the early game. The value of the cop goes down as the game drags on and thus counterclaiming becomes viable after a few days, but not now. However, Andrew's posts did not seem like fishing attempts to me. The first one was an incidental turn of phrase; the second one is after the fakeclaimer is *dead* and thus calling it a fishing strategy seems to be reaching for something that's just not there.

Reading Tai and Cor's arguments is confusing. In response to this-

So here's the thing, I see it and you don't. I'd like other people to weigh in on whether they got the same impression I did, that Andrew was suggesting either a day 1 counterclaim or the night 1 investigation/day 2 claim. Am I the only one who walked away from Andrew's post with this impression?

The gist of what he was saying was that cop should claim shortly after a fakecop (no, I don't think so), so you're not the only one. But although I think this strategy is flawed, like I said before, it just doesn't read as a fishing attempt. That you're piling that kind of suspicion on him at this point is disquieting, to say the least.

Furthermore, Andrew claims to have vigpowers! We could- and should- use them to get two lynches on one day, preferably as soon as possible. I would love to suggest using them today, in fact, except deadline is really close at the moment. I'm gonna insist on you using it tomorrow, though (or perhaps even tonight. I, personally, would actually prefer you used it tomorrow 'cos I'm going out this afternoon, but if I wasn't I'd certainly try to get it used. The intel will still be here when I get back to read it all.) Limited-use powers must be consumed, *especially* after you declare them. I shouldn't need to explain why.

In a shocking reversal of my day 1 attitude to a claim, I find the vote for Andrew after this claim in particular to not be a good move. Especially when we can put it to use *today* before deadline. Patch's post seems to me like she's trying to push for an Andrew lynch, hence the thing on counter-claims (which misses the idea of when such claims can be useful, i.e. mid-late game). And.. apart from that, I didn't make much of what she said. Vote for Andrew, vauge poke of lurkerness, doesn't really know what to think of QR/Corwin... eh. It's *better* than her other posts, I'll grant. I've still got nobody looking worse to me.

1137

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 20, 2008, 12:34:24 PM »

I read the two big posts from Chisa and Nitori where they list people and rate them on how townie they are.

I can't seem to identify the criteria they use to differentiate good townies from bad ones. I mean, Chisa gave QR a negative read, for instance, and for... what, exactly? That one line about Tom? Sure, it was a bit harsh, but I don't think it's entirely undeserved. Part of this is that I did an awful lot that QR has done; found Tom looking the worst, keeping my vote on him, hating neutral reads... and I've gotten just as defensive as her in prior games (Discworld) when people come after me. I don't feel the presentation of her counter-argument was particularly scummy, and she didn't actually OMGUS Andrew or anything, so... I'd like to hear about this negative read and how she's different from me.

Corwin likewise had many similarities to my play so far (despite being a HATEFUL LUNARIAN BITCH PRINCESS, ##Hate: Kaguya) and you're not getting a read in either direction from him. *Why*?

Nitori... has included NUMBERS! I actually find myself nodding at most of what he's saying, particularly drawing similarities between Chisa and cloud (and mirroring my vote pattern for them.) Said it before, people who seem to think like I do generally look good to me (except at endgame, hi, Tai, <3.) As for why I jumped off Chisa... actually, you're right, it IS because Patch looks a fair bit worse than Chisa. It's also because on rereading Chisa's posts, I noticed a detail I hadn't before and it made him look somewhat better in my eyes.

So. Yeah, I'd like Chisa to talk about why he thinks the people I mentioned above look different, namely myself, Cor, and QR, and the varying ratings therein.

<->

Andrew looks sort of bad after his latest post, but not.. as... bad as Cor has made out. I don't really think cops should out themselves- at all- until they've made a sizable number of investigations/are getting lynched, but I can't read his advice as an attempt to fish. It looked pretty weak in day 1 (as it was just part of a larger argument that I admittedly disagreed with, but certainly didn't seem like a fishing attempt); and in day 2, it's *after the fact*, isn't it? I strongly doubt any cop is going to immediately claim to defeat some fake cop regardless, and I don't think this policy is entirely flawed- after all, if Cop A investigates Cop B and turns him out scum, and his other results would be useful, then... go for it.

In general, your investigations will look much better if you *breadcrumb them daily* in the form of accusals/defences, and this is a core thing I think that seperates fakers from the real thing. I've said this in Discworld Mafia and I'll say it again here. It's your job to substantiate your results and play devil's advocate if they clash with what the town thinks! Don't claim blindly, but don't be shy about putting stuff out!

<->

Smodge, I, uh...

Almost any scum play at ALL can be explained as 'bad town'! I mean, you even have extreme cases like Tom, and lying about being cop! If someone lies about being cop, you'd think they were scum, right? NOT IN TOUHOU!

In Patch's case, it's because she came out with this long emotional rant at the end of the day, hammered Strago with little to no justification, slipped up and contradicted herself on why and how she made the post (was she aware she was hammering or wasn't she?), and has done very little to present herself as anything but a victim in this thread.

1138

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 20, 2008, 05:56:19 AM »

I want to point out to Hal that while Tom lying as town evidently happened, it's not such an obvious thing to expect, and I'd be wary of using 'not considering it' as a mark against someone. Lying is generally a scum act, so if you thought he was lying, that's where your lines of thought would go. In this case, the truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

1139

Forum Games / Re: Mafia Mod Signups

« on: January 20, 2008, 05:43:08 AM »

Hey, shouldn't someone update that list? Just sayin'.

1140

Forum Games / Re: Random Mafia - Be Afraid...Very Afraid

« on: January 20, 2008, 04:15:29 AM »

Go town!

Man, that's the first time I think I've been NK'd on day 1. h8.

1141

Forum Games / Re: Pretty Princess Mafia - Signups

« on: January 20, 2008, 04:03:54 AM »

haha 11 people already

1142

Forum Games / Re: Pretty Princess Mafia - Signups

« on: January 20, 2008, 03:53:02 AM »

What shale said.

1143

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 20, 2008, 01:31:24 AM »

Disagree that Cid defended himself particularly well. He pretty much did the thing I'm most suspicious of at the moment: Taking a shot at Strago without a reason to vote for strago, just one to *not* vote for Tom. I could say the same about Andrew (who indeed backed this up with a heavy threat to get the lynch stopped), only he had a roleclaim added that gave him a tad more credibility.

<->

Re: Tonfa...

A scum pretending to be a cop actually hangs the noose around their own neck, as he'll become an instant suspect if he doesn't draw the nightkill.

YES Tom would have been a suspect today had he survived, but NO that wouldn't be *because* he survived. I know you didn't say this specifically but I felt there was this implication. Can't try to guess too hard at why or why not someone was NK'd.

<->

I don't buy any of this 'oh look, patchcloud had a big long ranty post that seems more a towntell than anything'. I mean, check this out;

I get flack in Mafia games, even in ones where there are people who are lurking more than me. It's like, "Soppy hasn't been talking for 10mins, he's clearly town, Mia is clearly scum". Seriously what the fuck? I know I'm still a newbie and I'm still learning, but sometimes I wonder if this is a personal thing people have against me?

Huh? Hardly any attention had gone to her today, and she was feeling all ranty and had to bring this up? It was really defensive at a time when she was not really under pressure. You could say it's imagined pressure or just recollections from other games, but I say it's just as likely stress combined with being scum and resulting in a hyper-defensive post that makes it seem like everyone is against her- which, of course, we actually *are* if she's scum.

In short, no, none of the reasons to not vote for her offered to date were convincing. The passing shot at me from her here (at least, I assume it's at me)

"Mia is playing bad!"
Oh really? A certain someone didn't seem to think it was bad play when I was criticized for not doing exactly what I did on the end of Day 1.

could be in reference to me encouraging people to vote, and I stand by that. It's because it, you know, if we all have a free pass to not vote on day 1 it's easier for scum to lurk amongst lurkers. When they're forced to act, the probability of making mistakes goes up... like.. say... the way she's contradicted herself earlier.

<->

On gutclaims: I'm so sick of seeing these. They're impossible to discuss, pointless to put out, and make it look like you're thinking when you may well not be. Unfortunately they seem to be a common thing in the DL parlance. I can only ask that if you're going to make one, try to explain why- right there and then in that post, and not 'I've got a gut feeling... I'll try to explain later.'

<->

Since you asked, Smodge, I want your thoughts on patchcloud. I also want your thoughts on the strago endtrain, particularly Chisa, Cid, and Andrew. Same goes for anyone else looking for something to talk about, really.

1144

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 19, 2008, 09:16:56 AM »

Mmm, checking Chisa's previous posts it seems one of his reasons for going after Strago was because.. Strago agreed with Chisa's argument? And this was a suspicious thing to do 'cos Chisa later discovered a flaw in it. This seemed a pretty shaky reason to vote someone, especially someone who has been missing for a good period and can't be expected to have absorbed the entire thread at once; in such cases, it seems natural to look to what other people have said as signposts.

Okay, I may have spotted something.

On my latest reread, I noticed my mistake.  I also noticed that Strago brought up my example as, in his words, the best reasoning for the Tom vote.  Now why would someone single me out for good thinking when I screwed up, as a check of the thread could indicate?  This...looks like a more substantial scumtell than the Tom thing, which I didn't originally feel that good about anyway.

(votes go here)

<->

And with regard to your latest post, you're not doing yourself any favours by talking about voting for you being what you'd do and such. Rest of it looks fine, though, and honestly, in light of recent developments, ##Unvote: Chisa, ##Vote: Patchcloud. Contradicting yourself in the same post about what you did just a few hours ago? I really had no problem with anything up until you voted for Strago, but that post and the one you've made today don't look good.

Still waiting on Cid to justify his Strago vote near the end. Some kind of reason is required.

1145

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 19, 2008, 05:59:33 AM »

But that was so *stupid*! Yak, uh, I'll jab him in the ribs for you? What Cor said about Tom playing for Team Tom is, uh, suddenly really, really apt.

<->

Andrew! Cop can't be proven. Scum already know who is scum and who isn't. They can fake it. I called him on being wussy, and then he proceded to get wussier, just with a claim thrown in. As I've said, there was nothing compelling there. Hence why I didn't want to change my vote. I admit having cast it scant posts ago had something to do with it.

The Strago train is more interesting, anyway. I can see reasons to vote or not to vote for Thomas. I can't see such reasons to vote for Strago, especially towards the end when there were *several* votes without real quantifiers. Yes, it was close to deadline. I don't think this excuses you of the need to post a reason for voting! I'm mainly looking at Cloud, Cid, and Chisa (CCC!). It seems that a lot of people were taking shots at Strago just because he wasn't Thomas, which.. I.. feel is pretty weak.

Remember that the original reasons votes came after him were for lurking. I don't feel he could be accused as guilty of that after his salvo against Thomas. Nor do I feel that it's terribly valid to hit at him for voting for Thomas, when, in his position, lynching 'the other guy' is a fair call for him to make.

Personally, I feel Chisa has *slightly* less excuse than Cloud for the vote, so that's where I'm tossing out my ##Vote: Chisa, why'd you vote for him? I think Strago got lynched mainly 'cos he was there, and that's just really... not good as far as reasons go. Noted that there a couple votes for Cloud and I second pretty much everything they represent, but Chisa was earlier in the day and there was still value in going after someone else at that point.

1146

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 18, 2008, 02:24:00 PM »

An anonymous vote appeared on Strago at the same time Dread Thomas voted. I find this odd, but it probably doesn't belong to him with the way GMs seem to favour staggered doublevoting, or however it is they do it. (And it'd just be so *dumb* to roleclaim one thing when you have another role like that so obviously.)

In any case, who is willing to give him credit for a day? I kind of don't want to, as his day one play was just.. really reckless, especially for someone with such a potentially useful role, and nor was that exactly a stirring defence.

Oh, and a question that should be answered in light of this...

Mod: Do roles flip on death?

PostEdit: STOP NINJAING ME

1147

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 18, 2008, 01:44:41 PM »

So who has been lurking more? Instead of giving vauge advice, you could put down some names. Strago springs to mind, as does Ciato... I can't say I'm too thrilled about it. But.

There's little reason, at this point, to think you're going to be of more assistance to town than someone else. The tone of your latest posts just seem so scummy. You've flipped from one extreme (haranguing Otter in almost every post) to really passive 'ok I'll be good, please don't lynch me' play, and although you want to see someone else get lynched, you've given town very little direction as to where to go.

And you're saying stuff like 'If I'm scum, then I'm likely to slip up soon'. I've been able to read into small things people say before in terms of how they phrase it, and this kind of hypothetical is a minor but still notable mark against you.

I don't think there's much else I can say that Yakumo and Hal and others haven't already in terms of your OMGUSing, exploding (imploding?) etc. You've generated conversation, but it's almost all been about you! I do feel some other people have acted a bit oddly today, but until I see your flip, I'm wary of persuing these trains of thought.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Dread Thomas

1148

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 17, 2008, 11:39:34 PM »

Otter: The whole incivility thing, particularly with regard to Smodge; ok, for starters, you don't need to look hard to find a oneliner post out of Cor...

Urge to slay the lack of proper capitalization and punctuation at its source, rising.

seems to be a bit more snarky than EvilTom, did you miss this or just not consider it for some reason? Secondly, for some of us, that kind of posting is really, really frustrating. I kinda support further criticism of it. However, I don't support people getting upset at you for 'spicing things up'. Someone has to do it.

Cid: I think it's very weird of you to go: "OK's style is usually to hang fairly low on day 1 and then come out with detailed analysises in future days. SO, let's vote for him!" It's like you've totally ignored what you already said in the rest of your post.

Dread Thomas: You cannot continue posting like you and smodge do and expect people to not make things out of it. What Yakumo said is wise. Stop! Listen! Reflect!

EDIT KEKEKE SIXREPLYRUSH

*everything I thought about all of these posts got ninja'd*.

Why would Otter deliberately stage a late entry, anyway? When you think about moves that scum would deliberately make, also note that they have brains, too, and they would probably not deliberately make moves that they know make them look bad. Acidentally, sure.

Scumtell is a generic term used for 'thing that looks scummy'. They include generalities more than specifics, i.e. lurking too much (but how much is too much?), wishy-washy voting, attempts to draw out particular roles, straw-man arguments, etc. etc.

Dread Thomas, you said

I hate the whole "stop acting like scum" thing, it's just an excuse for.. argh I'd better not start ranting.

But you've also said

I'm keeping my vote on Smodge, until he says/does something that isn't scummy.

. See, this is a scumtell: You're losing track of your previous position and contradicting yourself later down the line without a justification.

You are continually OMGUSing and it's painful to watch. I mean, seriously, "Looks like you're trying to paint me in scum colours from the start?" In my experience, scum just... don't work this way. There are pretty much never long-term plans to make someone look scummy and mislynches are 90% opportunity, 10% plan. That's why I think the really reactionary posts out of you are so dangerous; if you don't stop to consider that the one voting for you might be town, then all you may end up doing is casting a lot of undeserved suspicion on them and setting them up for a mislynch the following day.

1149

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 17, 2008, 10:33:52 AM »

Do we have to talk about why day 1 sucks? We get it, really, all we can do is live with it.

I don't think there's any particular value to not voting at the moment. It's a tad early to go after lurkers, but you *might as well* if you've got nothing better. You can always Unvote, there was a demonstration of this function on the previous page. People who have gone 'the jokevoting phase is over! We can take away our votes' are missing the point of voting today at all in the first place.

1150

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 17, 2008, 05:49:56 AM »

Personally, I'm hoping we don't, y'know, run until deadline on day 1. Again. Of all the days in which extra time is needed, Day 1 is really the least amongst them. We've got a huge votespread that won't be doing us much good, so I say we heap votes on a few people instead of many and see what happens.