Messages

276

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 07:35:08 AM »

There's investigative and there's a case of reading comprehension. I don't see why only smodge should get voted for the later, as if other people gain immunity from that. And now that I think about it, Otter being here early really does feel odd, so I'm comfortable with my 'semi-serious' vote there.

277

Forum Games / Re: World of Warcraft Mafia - Main Topic

« on: February 05, 2008, 06:51:22 AM »

##Vote: QR because she didn't get the first post and is trying to eliminate the one who did!

278

Forum Games / Re: VtM:M - Vampire the Masquerade Mafia

« on: February 05, 2008, 06:46:35 AM »

##Vote: Otter for his apparent lack of comprehension of more than one post explaining our apparent Prince's intentions.

Yay dayvig, second lynch, etc, I'm always down with that. Hate for roles showing up from the start, but eh. In this case Rat's right about needing to use the power as much as possible from the start rather than letting it go to waste, it just foreshadows role madness as we proceed. I suppose we'll see.

279

Forum Games / Re: (World of) Warcraft Mafia, early sign-ups

« on: February 04, 2008, 06:27:35 AM »

Confirmed

280

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 30, 2008, 08:43:05 AM »

Don't take Team Scum's comments too personally.  >_>

Still. Do you not see a clear contradiction in your stated desires (a) and (c)?

281

Forum Games / Re: (World of) Warcraft Mafia, early sign-ups

« on: January 28, 2008, 02:29:43 PM »

Support of C9, growing.

282

Forum Games / Re: V:tM Mafia Signups Thread

« on: January 27, 2008, 04:48:44 PM »

Ditto.

283

Forum Games / Re: Persona Mafia Interest and Sign-ups

« on: January 26, 2008, 09:30:11 PM »

Could be fun~

284

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 24, 2008, 08:00:15 PM »

I'm not particularly sure what kind of defense you expect. Would you like me to lie and say I got roleblocked? I suppose people believe it quite easily, but that's pretty pointless. As for Tai... why would someone who wants to boost his case lie? Well, why not? What, are you going to lynch Tai for being a bit aggressive on a mistake? We all know he's town, it'll be forgiven.

And heaven knows Tai would receive his entire role correctly and unedited from the mod, why, it's unthinkable things would be left out or misstated on purpose. I mean, there is absolutely no precedent for it in any of the flips so far.

##Love: Otter

285

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 24, 2008, 06:02:49 PM »

I'd suspect you, but Supercop-cleared, so. I'm sorry myself. If anyone would like me to post any final thoughts, I can swing it by (RL) tomorrow, it being the weekend and all.

Man, just what I thought. Once a train passes 4-5 votes, it won't move any longer. And they keep on piling time after time, day after day, all the way from day 1 lurkervotes (!). Or you guys could just hammer me now, what could I possibly say when the only guys you (and I) trust as much as yourself to be town tells you he doesn't believe me?

If you do want to end the day as soon as you can and don't really care about me, just let me know before morning hits tomorrow, please? It'd suck to be compiling my final post only to get ninja-hammered.

286

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 24, 2008, 05:28:41 PM »

Meanwhile, you, dear? Unless your actions on yourself are invisible, you -didn't act at all-. Profoundly nothing! I was the only one to look at you and you did -nothing- to anyone else. Yes, I watched you. Saw jack. ...and survived the night anyway.

So unless the obvious happened, I'm scum? How does that work, Tai?

And hey, go trains. Everyone's convinced, no one questions!

287

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 24, 2008, 02:38:22 PM »

Had no time over the lunch break at all, and unlikely to have much till I get home. I tried to catch up as thoroughly as I could, but if you feel I've missed something (especially something directed at me), please repeat it and I'll do my best.

First of all, I'm alive. Certainly not what I expected to see happen, but there it is.

Nitori flipping town puzzled me. I was so certain... I mean, if there were just the two of us and QR.... Okay. It also got me running in circles. I still kinda believed OK. He was obviously a watcher, and I didn't get a scummy vibe from him. So barring him lying (and just how many people could target Tom day one?!) it seemed that one of us three killed Tom. Supercop? Yeah, no. But a doctor evidently did, even if it's some mad scientist. I really wanted to use my chance to protect one of our two confirmed townies, Tai (absolutely cleared) or OK (pretty much cleared, at least to me), but in the very unlikely scenario that I would actually kill one of them while trying to save them....

So I decided to target myself. If it had been just me suspecting that my powers didn't work as well as I stated with such certainty the previous day, I could have tried it on a lurker, of course. But there was also the possibility that I was overthinking it, that Nitori passed through my protection and... that scum would target me as well, since they would know who's town and who's not. Especially if they don't actually have docbust (for that, we need to believe OK, I admit, but I do; the whole puppetmaster routine just doesn't work for me, and it fits so well with what we've had so far with the supercop/miller thing).

I, erm, succeeded. By this, I mean that I didn't receive a notification of failure on use of my ability like before. Also, Impossible Request #3 was wasted, since scum didn't bite. Not sure what to think of that; could they ALSO have something to get past me, like Nitori evidently did?

I sort-of caught up to the thread by now, which means I've read it but can't really comment in depth yet. I'll try from home. Minor sense of irony for Otter calling Gate out on a somewhat puzzling naming issue only to commit the same mistake with regard to Excal/Andrew. That just jumped at me, maybe because it's on the more recent pages.

And Alex was scum. If nothing else, it should remind us that each of us can only trust him or herself with 100% certainty, and after that, the person who was confirmed by a flipped Supercop. Groupthink=bad.

288

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 23, 2008, 11:45:16 AM »

Fine. ##Vote: Nitori, because he's the only one I'm 100% certain is SCUM.

289

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 23, 2008, 11:13:23 AM »

O...kay.

I guess the cat's out of the bag, now. I don't see myself living through the night, not with this forced out of me, but at least I might survive to the night and actually do some good for once in this game.

I have five Impossible Requests. Guess what they do? I'll even give you all a hint: I used two of them so far, one on Tom night 1, and another on Andrew night 2. Since it would be the height of gayness (the bad kind, not the fluffy yuri kind) to give me limited chances to save people and have them be ineffectual... yeah, I'm no quack or fraud or whatever loser doctor exists that doesn't work as it should. Just my luck that scum have (had?) something goddamn more powerful than an Impossible Request to counter me with Tom, and that Andrew is lolimmune to all night actions. I'd thank Andrew for making me waste one needlessly, when I could've targetted someone else instead, but yeah. I clearly am not going to live long enough to spend all five anyhow, so it's moot.

So. OK claims he sees QR, Nitori and myself visit Tom night 1. Tom ends up dead. QR flips supercop. Nitori is an American and claims doc first (except not really, cause he's a quack, naturally) and... I get four votes on me before I'm even around. What the HELL, people?!

I can't see OK AND Nitori lying about this together, and I don't really see OK lying and Nitori jumping on the chance as town, because that would eclipse Tom's monumental stupidity from day 1. Therefore, occam's razor suggests Nitori went on the kill, and somehow managed to bypass me. I also think that if Kilga had just picked abilities by thematic assosiation alone AND gave us our choice of characters at gamestart... it would be kinda retarded. But no, people are eating this illogic up, and Nitori's suddenly around a lot to serve it all around just because he's Eirin and jumped on a chance to take me down with him.

Since I know this will come up: why the hell would I choose to protect Tom whom I both didn't believe and thought was a failure as a player night 1? Duh. He's still town, I even said I believed as much when I posted that I disagreed with QR (she thought he was lying and scum, I just thought he was lying to survive). I was forced to adapt myself to a new situation when Strago was the one lynched. Personal dislike of Tom's mafia play aside... we need to lynch, and lynching bad players is acceptable. But that leaves a paper trail of votes and posts. A NK tells us nothing but the flip. I didn't believe we would get anything out of his night 1 flip. Was I right? On the one hand, it was confirmed to you lot (aside from QR, who believed the same thing I did) that he was indeed lying. On the other... he was still town, and you majority-lynched Patchu for it, when she happened to be an innocent if inept townie. I honestly don't know if I made the right call that night. Only time will tell, probably.

And why did I protect Andrew despite my suspicions on him? You're kidding, right? Andrew is not Tom, I said as much. I had no reason to not wait for him to deliver on his roleclaim. Also, I totally support more lynches by way of dayvigging. He was confident he would live to see morning. I was less confident, considering my protection of Tom didn't exactly take, so I decided to stack the odds, just in case.

So where do we go from here? Town has a claimed Watcher that saw me visit the person I visited, so OK's pretty much confirmed for me. Tai... I trust him (and that part's been solidly reinforced by QR's flip), and his Watcher powers could be easily proved as well, especially since he outed himself and has no reason to hold back on his results tomorrow. If I had decent chances of living to see the next morning, I would've kept the rest to myself, till then, but....

Andrew is likely a third party. It is in the interests of scum and town alike to take him down, and the longer the game goes, the less chances of this actually happening, what with roleclaims on town's side and scumtells/contraditions/outright lies on scum's side, which would probably take precedence. And then, we're in LYLO and get a WoT situation where a Grefter wins. "Yes, I'm third party! I lied earlier, but I'll help you lynch scum so at least scum doesn't win!" -- well, neither would WE, in that case. I really don't like Alex's arguments this game. That, and the desire to kill THAT SCUM (How could you do this to me, Eirin?!) make me lean towards the Nitori lynch. But on the off chance Alex is right this time... plus, when I flip tonight that would convict Nitori just as well. I know, I know, we should lynch scum as soon as one's confirmed, but is my word alone confirmation enough for the rest of you? Argh. I honestly don't know which way to vote, but my last vote for the game would support town decision, once both options have been weighed against each other.

smodge is still suspicious to me, but it's maybe-scummy-seeming, not SCUM or THIRD PARTY-scummy. But it's important to get this out while I still can.

Anyway. To reiterate.

On Nitori: You are a LYING SCUM. DIE.

On Andrew: As a too-good-to-be-true town claim, you're likeliest to actually be a third party. You had your shot of dayvig and used it up for us, which is admirable and I salute you. Don't take it personally, but we actually want to win and leaving you around goes against that. If you have more kills in you, then you've clearly lied and deserve to die even more. If you don't, town has gotten all the use out of its alliance with you it can.

The case on Nitori is much simpler by comparison, it appears.

P.S.
To Cid (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5531#msg5531): Scum would know whether OK's one of them or not. I'm believing him, since he had no way of otherwise knowing I went to see Tom night 1. Therefore, going by that, he's town and announced that a cop, SCUM (Nitori) and someone else went to see Tom... do you think I did so for my health? That's ridiculous and scum would jump at the chance to kill an investigative or protective role. Nitori's been made, so he's a write off anyway. How does it not make sense to get me lynched along with him? Even if they figured I was some kind of vig they would still want to be rid of anyone else's night kills. And if I hadn't come clean as doc they might not have had another chance to kill me during the night, if whatever they used to bust my protection simply isn't there anymore and they were afraid of some mysterious other player who chose not to go for Tom saving my ass tonight.

"Day two, Corwin continues his case against Andy by voting for him." That is a LIE. I never had a case of any kind on Andrew aside from LURKING. You are making me use caps, plural, and that greatly annoys me. Kindly stop.

So, "Explain yourself, please." back to you. Why am I not surprised you jumped on the train that formed on me? A couple more votes, and it'd have momentum of its own, whatever I say. Goddammit.

290

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 22, 2008, 08:39:27 PM »

I'm giving up and no longer commenting on every little thing. Work was... difficult, and there's every reason to suspect it will continue to do so for the rest of the week. I can't catch up to 10 pages of posts thoroughly, so while I'll certainly be reading them that way, I won't be as nitpicky as I've been so far until I have more free time.

Suffice it to say that so far, I find Tai more believable... ironically because I can see a single case where he could be lying over his millertude, town, and lying for the best interests of town. (Got thinking about that from Shale's comment: Hell, I initially wrote "Godfather or non-miller town," but I can't imagine the logic that would go into a false miller claim here.). I can, and that would pretty much sink QR. Eh. Very unlikely. Tai is more likely than not telling the truth. That's just the feel I'm getting from him, especially since I can't see the case for him lying and doing so to hurt town/because he is scum. It's possible. Yes. But not probably, not by a longshot.

Some of my earlier questions get answered, if not to my utmost satisfaction, then at least enough for me to let them go as less important in the larger scheme of things and allow me to focus on the more important arguments.

On Andrew: I'm willing to give him some space to prove his claim (remember, we still haven't seen actual evidence of this dayvig; it boggles the mind why someone would lie about it, but... Tai/QR. Tom. So yeah). If he proves himself, and generally acts as the town wishes him to, given that he's claiming allegience to us... yeah, I see no reason to hound him at this time.

All the talk of killing both Tai and QR is, erm, stupid. While a blatant lie or some bizarre flip on the part of one of them would indeed give us near certainty of the other's alignment, one way or the other... why even debate killing both before seeing the first flip? But I'm not reading anything actually scummy in this. It's a strange enough situation that it's not really that close to xyz, I think, just distantly related. Second cousins, say?

smodge not reading QR's actual claim, as Shale points out (the obvious; sorry, Shale, but I think everyone saw it but smodge). Yeah, that doesn't look good. Super kept making these mistakes in NR, and... just yeah. I made the wrong call there, and while there's always a chance of going too far in the other direction when you're correcting yourself... yeah. Even later, smodge goes to say: "My mistake, i only saw the "slowcop" part."  (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5263#msg5263) Lots of 'yeah'. Combined with the things I didn't like about smodge earlier, mentioned in my previous posts, that's a FoS. Not a vote, because I snuck a peek towards Kilga's latest tally as I glanced through the topic for it to see how actually relevant this post would be. I'm reserving my vote to clearly show who I think should die, and it's unrealistic smodge would get the necessary dayvig votes by now.

I know it's kinda bad listening to the accused, as he's not the most impartial of witnesses... but Tai here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5275#msg5275) makes quite a lot of sense. I like that it mirrors my thought process a lot, and that helps me lean towards him even more, and by default away from QR. The likelihood of them both being truthful AND for QR to have actual cop powers useful to town such as a non-naive cop (which is one of the considerations of lynching Tai over a claimed cop)... well, it's really, really small, from where I'm looking at it.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5320#msg5320

Jesus, more from Yakumo, wondering where I disappeared to at 5:47am. I WONDER WHERE. All this constant and seemingly inoffensive dropping of suggestions that I'm lurking nefariously in the shadows (instead of sleeping, catching up with posts on a busy day at work or unable to post since the mod hasn't declared the night phase over) is beginning to set off flags for me. Of course, I'm not the most impartial of people here. I just know that Yakumo knows perfectly what my waking times are, and that I couldn't post during the nights -- both of mine and in the game, sandwiched between them -- which came back to back to me, all three of them. Unless he forgot, I dunno, it hasn't been that long since Tsukihime. Does anyone else find this puzzling? I really don't want to get caught into an OMGUS claim, especially irritated and tired as I am after today.

Otter delurks, asks for other people to explain things to him? Seems... slightly off. One should always try to trust their lying eyes over the words of others (since you're only ever certain of your own alignment). And I don't feel the slightest bit of irony saying that, since my request re: Yakumo came from being too close to the matter, and asking for a second opinion after I've already came up with one myself. On a reread, I'm not even sure this means anything. I'm beginning to nod off, so it looks like time to take a break. I'm still out of phase, but reaching page 37 of 42 is an improvement over being 11 pages behind.

Ah, right. I wanted to support my conviction with a vote. ##Vote: QR. From my sneak peek ahead, this shouldn't hammer her even if someone posts simultaneously. Ideally, I would like to have enough time to wake up, use an hour or two to catch up, and make the final decision... but based on what I've seen so far-- well, I've covered it all above, and nothing changed my mind till page 37, so far.

291

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 22, 2008, 12:02:13 PM »

Right. After the day starts, people comment on how they have nothing to comment on.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5176#msg5176

Now we move on to smodge, who says Andrew's power being used confirms 'us' a townie. Had it been anyone else I'd have asked them how exactly it even begins to confirm anyone but Andrew as anything but a liar by using it (nothing prevents him from being non-town aligned and still having a oneshot dayvig power). If smodge is talking about how we'll lynch townies and confirm them postmortem? He does realize that as dead townies we're kinda useless to town itself, barring an unlikely zombie role, right (or by giving confirmation of a claim, which at this time only Andrew has put forth)? Eh. I guess I want to know what exactly smodge was thinking of, here.

Agree with him on Shale, whose nonpresence I highlighted previously myself.

Next is Hal's post. I'm glad to see him participate without votes piling on him; I consider that a good sign. I would like him to post about someone other than Tonfa, though. While his points there are valid, I would like him to talk more about the rest of the players. No specific questions at this point, just enough to see Hal from another angle and compile a better read on him.

EDIT: And here's Hal doing some of what I asked for, here:

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5204#msg5204

Those who know me would also know that I agree entirely with using the dayvig, dividing the day in two (so that we have a clear deadline, just like with a proper lynch) and the majority decision is likewise clear. We can't well hammer someone, as that results in the real lynch. However, I would like the majority to be quite clear, such as -2 to hammer or the area of. Part of the point of a lynch is having people argue for/against lynching Person X and then committing to it with a vote. A shaky majority of 4 people with everyone else sniping from the sidelines won't tell us as much.

Utter hate for Yakumo's "and Corwin hadn't popped in to address them yet" timed 2:31am my time while the entire last RL day was clearly 'night' in the game during which I couldn't post, nor was the day 2 ending at a reasonable time RL for me. On a reread of that sentence, it's not hate for Yakumo specifically, but in general for expecting me to respond when he knows I simple can't, not won't (from having played with me in Tsukihime, for example). And bah, in itself, it's not actually suspicious, just way too irritating.

Wow, QR roleclaims. I don't like the way she phrases it: "So, I'm going to see if I can take myself out of the running with a roleclaim as Andy said I was his main target." This makes it sound as if a roleclaim in itself placed her beyond doubt, and in a game where the only verified claim was actually a lie (by town, admittedly, so it's not any kind of sign of scummitude).

I'm torn as to whether I should understand her behavior or not. She didn't believe Tom was a cop because she's a cop variant? So... the idea of two cops, especially if one of them isn't a full cop, and in a largish game like ours... is so out of the question? I can get behind 'not flipping believing' Tom, however, and that's valid enough for me to accept her actions. I had some reason to doubt his specific claim, myself, but most of it came down to it being TOM and that his claim was delivered in a way that instantly made me think he was trying to save his ass. That cost town a power role of indeterminate nature (custom illusionist, whatever it is), and a few other things, since I would have likely traded Tom off for Strago as a player on our side. Oh well, it's a done deal by now.

And finally, a claim that Tai = Town. With the way he stuck his neck out to defend Andrew day 2, I'd tend to concur. It just feels a bit too far for scum to put himself on the line, and for little gain from what I can see.

Reading on....

Andrew claims two night kill attempts. To clarify, does he mean on himself? Or is that a power of his that lets him know all kill attempts a given night? Were there two kill attempts night 1 as well, if the latter? And he notices the irony of QR's roleclaim right on the heels of the long debate we had over roleclaims, particularly from cops. I'll have to reread that segment to see which side of the divide QR advocated, to see if there's some inherent contradiction. But that's for later, and right now it's more important to me to catch up.

And double wow, Tai counter-claims a miller, which brings all kinds of sanity questions to QR, if she is not flat out lying. If Tai = Scum, it's a bit of a dumb gambit to get QR killed... and for what? An unfavorable exchange rate for scum? Tai didn't seem particularly suspicious to people so far, aside from a case of lurking, so why would he do this as scum? I'm tempted to accept his claim, but QR isn't Tom and cop claims in general should be tentatively accepted and checked....

I can't decide at this point, but maybe the answer's ahead, somewhere.

To Rat: Yes, pretty much. Some people may or may not be prone to groupthink. Some I know better, and you happen to be one of them. When you do it, it's definitely weird. Also, following apparent groupthink and all, you were town in Discworld, which should actually support my argument, not draw away from it. I'm allowed to learn from experience, I hope.

My reasons for the Andrew case have been detailed in the other posts, so if you're still not satisfied with my reasoning after reading them, ask me specific questions and I'll try to clarify what I can.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5213#msg5213

Shale's post. 1 is possible; 1a is not something likely, given that Tai has thrust himself into the spotlight where he wasn't there before. It just doesn't work for me. 2 is... possible. Eh. QR is always so hard to read. I was convinced she was on the side of good in NR, and... yeah. 3 is... well, what's the point? If we have another cop, they'll be able to get a read on him and come up town. Also, if QR gets lynched, scum lose their godfather who was cleared by a cop (unless Tai talks fast, I suppose, but it's an awful gambit to try). Just think about this for a moment, does that sound even remotely likely? The godfather role exists to draw a cop to clear them, so who would just do this? In fact, if we buy the cop claim more, we might trade the claimed miller to confirm or disprove it, and end with the outcome of dead scum godfather/living and confirmed cop.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5215#msg5215

smodge, in something that needs to be quoted:

Regardless, i thought QR was scum and voted for her before the claim, so i'm willing to stick with it regardless of the claim.

Emphasis mine. It just... argh. Here's what he says a page earlier when he votes for her (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5176#msg5176):

##Vote: QuietRain
I'm not sure whether its just bad town, or really really obvious scum, twice now we have had people roleclaim a town power, and twice she has voted for those people AFTER the claims.

Please explain the difference to me between voting for someone after a roleclaim and leaving your vote on someone after a roleclaim. For the life of me, I just see semantics. If that was enough for you to vote QR, is that enough for me to vote you? I dunno, but you don't look so good with this logic.

And Andrew's last post for page 31 is as far as I got on my lunch break. I do agree that QR's choice of Tai is a bit puzzling. She went to investigate Tom on night 1, she claims, which is not something I would have done before knowing whether he has a chance of living through the night. I would have gone for the people who gave off a neutral read or, perhaps, those who stayed on him like she did, but without a reason as apparently good as she claims (which I don't entirely buy into, but like I already said, the 'IT WAS TOM' and 'he behaved oddly even for Tom' part of the reason are enough for me). Instead, she targetted him... and then Tai? Not another claimed role? Not someone who might have been more active in overall discussion, not just Andrew's case? I'm not entirely comfortable agreeing with someone I've considered the likeliest scum candidate till his claim (and who could still be one, if we don't see the dayvig work as claimed), but I don't see much choice except concur with him here.

Okay. I think I'm going to comment as I read each couple of pages, since work today is being especially nasty (as it has a habit of being, lately, sigh). That's probably my best chance of getting thoughts out on things as I see them -- there could be information that makes what I'm pointing out now moot, perhaps... but likewise, some little thing I mention in my posts may suddenly become relevant to an ongoing case, so I don't feel that what I'm trying to do is useless. People, especially under pressure, far too often forget what they argued in the past, and might be caught in a contradiction, if not an outright lie.

292

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 22, 2008, 06:25:30 AM »

So, uhh, deadline for day 2 came as I was asleep. The entire following day was wasted by me hitting f5 and waiting on an email to come with a post notification. Then, game resumed while I was asleep once more and from a single post on page 30 I now have to catch up to page 38 (?!). I'm certain by the time I've read up till then, it'll be page 40+ or somesuch. I hate you all, and I hate Kilga the most.

So what can I do? I could make this post I've written yesterday in notepad which comments on what caught my eye as day 2 came to a close, now that I've seen a partial confirmation of Andrew's claim (not vig, yet, from what I can see, but the not-dying part). Here goes.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4978#msg4978

Yakumo, what you saw as a gameplay issue, I believed to be scum slipping up. Andrew seemed to have tried fishing for counterclaims when it was still viable with Tom, then he continued saying that and at least Tai appeared to be nodding along from his response to me. Given we don't have just one important role in this game (meta, yeah, but we all know this) it certainly seemed like setting the stage for drawing one out when scum/suspicious townie roleclaim in the future. In particular, he could've gone past his day 1 softclaim and gotten a vital town role caught in his logic trap in the process.

Then, there's Cid post to me +vote. If Andrew was speaking hypothetically, why was he speaking of it so consistently in his day 2 posts? There was just too much, and it was going for a second day in a row... you're free to disagree, but we won't catch scum if I duck my head every time someone drops a vote on me rather then staying on someone who I consider to be the likeliest scum.

Reading Patchu's post, I have to wonder myself how Shale managed to pick up so many votes. Yeah, he was lurkerific, and I commented on that myself, but going back to glance at a votecount, wasn't he like on 4 votes compared to Patchu's 6 at one time?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4988#msg4988

smodge, I wasn't too comfortable with Andrew's softclaim, I must say. It could just as easily be scum preparing the ground for a claim, as a legit one. I suppose I could invite you to reread the arguments without the preconception that Andrew's claim necessarily makes him town, but given the developments in the thread since your post... eh.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4991#msg4991

Yakumo, again. Yes, pretty much (on Hal). I was going by games, just not mafia. Your point of it not being the best reference here, perhaps, is well-taken.

I don't believe I was repeating the same argument as much as finding more proof to support a case that jumped at me, the way Andrew's post did on a reread of the last few posts at the time. He already looked bad to me for the voting issue Tonfa found and the way he avoided my point on it being a tell. So I kept going back, and I kept finding more and more. What was I supposed to do, ignore it and vote on the Patchu train I just didn't buy into for reasons already stated? The pressure was for a situation you don't feel relevant, you were saying in an earlier post, but I disagree -- I answered that one above. Unfortunately, Kilga's days end while I sleep which is annoying, but it's not like I can do anything about that. I wish I had time to discuss all this before the day had ended.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4993#msg4993

Okay, Andrew's post. On itself, not too compelling. He agrees to making a factual mistake of sorts, and confuses a role:

"I do believe that, yes, once the doc is able to substantiate his claim (both that he is the real cop AND that the other claimer is actually scum), he should, as Soppy would say, take the shot and take the scum down."

Generally, since we're recalling mafia precedents, what I'm getting here is the Super in NR vibe, especially since retarded as those things are, he did manage to get a counterclaim from our real cop.

The one thing I did feel better about is that while Andrew agrees that a certain sense of urgency exists in his previous posts, he's clarifying that he's not going for days 1/2 counterclaims.

The follow up post is actually interesting. Since Andrew isn't, you know, Tom, and the claim is easily-verifiable, it would have been enough for me to stave off my vote.

Okay, so now that I'm off Andrew's case for the moment, let's look at the follow-up posts. smodge's is interesting in that he calls out Otter, and Otter does seem to be too quiet. Is it a tell? In the two games he did this (Discworld and Random), he was scum in one and town in another. But lurkers are bad for town, since not speaking up = others not getting a read on you, so I'll be looking at him next if this continues. I can also understand why Andrew would vote for Patchu (especially if he's town, and thus the only thing he's sure of is himself).

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5003#msg5003

This is puzzling from QR. Like I said earlier, Andrew's got an easily-verifiable role. In fact, you guys should've just reached a consensus and had him kill the scummiest-looking person around to benefit town. I can see the arguments for waiting until there is ample time for discussion, but given the risks of braving the night... a difficult call to make. But I think the choice there should have been between calling Andrew out on it right away to both prove his allegience and aid us by giving us a mostly-confirmed townie (after expending his oneshot vig he would be just vanilla, so the target on his back during the night lessens) and waiting the night out to allow any investigative roles and good old investigative discussion give us more input before actually using the vig power. I entirely don't see where voting for him is an acceptable option, QR.

Agreement with OK that Andrew's posts gave more insight into his thought process. I find myself disagreeing with him even more, now (you'd spend the oneshot vig during day 1, randomly, because you choose to trust Tom and some people don't? yeah). However, the sense of Andrew = scummy has lessened in the process, and I can get along with people who play the game differently, as long as we're all doing our best to win.

QR later unvotes Andrew and goes for Patchu. I can't find fault with her logic there, or her urging Andrew to use his power as soon as possible, and give his target a chance to convince him it'd be a bad idea (ie standard pre-lynching defense). Since Andrew says he intends to use it as a second lynch for a day, that seems sensible.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg5030#msg5030

Cid doesn't look too good here. A few things:

He speculates on doc protection and the like. I've been after these things from the start, perhaps because a disproportionate ratio of posts by different players seem to discuss roles. I have admittedly been overzealous here, looking back on how the flips went, but I can't help but see each new instance of this in a bad light. With that said, I'm looking closer at your post. And the rest of it doesn't look too hot, either. I've stayed on Andrew due to genuinely believing him scummier than Patchu AND because I had a chance to get that scummy-looking person lynched instead of someone who seemed like a flailing townie to me. My vote was certainly not cast with the intent of letting it go to waste. Yet yours is, unless you believed that with under 2 hours to go I was suddenly a candidate for lynching.

So yeah, FoS, etc. Explain yourself.

On Alex, and commenting I look suspicious for daring to think outside the box (or, in other words, for looking beyond the train that formed for shaky reasons and threatened to occupy the entire day), I guess I'm willing to fight for my beliefs, just like QR said about herself. If playing the way I do and going aggressively after those I see as scummy gets me lynched? Still better than lurking in the shadows unhelpfully and voting with the herd. May my efforts benefit town, at least, even if I won't be around to see it.

On Tai's post. Eh. It was all about Andrew, and proving his allegience by a display of powers or a flip pretty much makes the debate moot. Yeah, I see no reason to keep at it by this point.

Page 29, QR talks about fears of not surviving the night, etc. It just caught my eye because it's not the first time she talks of dying horribly at the hands of scum. Except, you know, she doesn't. Just seems odd, and gets odder the more I hear about this from her/the longer she survives despite that.

And then there's the flip. Patchu... well, at least she wasn't lying about vanilla, or it could've been worse. The Martyr bit... well, I hadn't found the Patchu case compelling (yes, there were tells; I just saw a different way of reading them), and the suspicion on Chisa seemed to stem from largely the same reasons. I can't say I'm too surprised over him flipping as town. And, quite unexpectedly given Tom's claim/immediate death, we have Andrew around for the day. I fully support the idea of having two lynches today, as I've stated before (both in this post and other games when it's come up). Today, I'll be catching up and briefly glancing at the newest posts for any developments. I'm sure there are arguments on whom to vig, but merely skimming them means an ineffectual opinion from me at most, so I'll just stick to the usual thorough read.

293

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 20, 2008, 05:52:04 PM »

Well, it seems at least one person (ie OK) doesn't get the excessive roleclaim-pushing vibes I'm getting from Andrew, so time to quote from Andrew's posts. I'll go back from the present, since the last posts feature is geared towards that. I'll also be bolding the sections that jumped at me when I read his posts.

His last post to date (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4907#msg4907) :

However, I see you adamantly pursuing an individual, on day one, who has, unopposed, claimed one of town's best roles.

Later on in that same post:

As for the other thing... I could be mistaken, but I believe it IS important to catch scum impersonating cops ASAP as they can screw up the logic of the game really badly, really quickly. So yes, I do believe once they have some substantiation, real cop out to ought the liar as quick as they can.

(Also, please note, I did say once he could substantiate it. An immediate counterclaim is bad, my point was more that we had no conflicting evidence saying Tom was not cop).

I'm not quoting the entire posts. That would be ridiculous. Those who believe the quotes I'm using are out of context are free to follow the links I'm providing to the posts themselves.

From this post alone, I'm getting this sense of urgency. Just look at the terms he's using, the way he's pushing for any cops to immediately counterclaim ASAP once they have proof. Not once they've collected enough information, but from the get go.

His post before this one (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4781#msg4781):

And idly, the problem with a hugely delayed counterclaim is that it allows misinformation to spread and become harder to get yourself accepted as the proper cop. It also means you can start playing the protection game as well as quite likely take out a scum in the process. In other words, if you can generally get scum killed, you should. We win with exchanges and what have you.

Again, I'm getting a sense of urgency. If you're a cop and can bury the other claim? Stand up straight away, or it's bad! Which I agree with, to a point, but like I argued with Tai a cop would be better served not claiming and  going after confirmed scum the way all other regular townies do (with arguments) this early on and in a game of this size. And Andrew is certainly talking in reference to our case of a day 1 cop claim, and what he would've liked our cop(s) to do.

The post before this touches upon the votecount hijinks. Idly, Andrew never commented on how I saw this as a minor scumtell (ie inattention to detail, usually a sign of scum play), and later on went to say that he saw no problem with it, not seeing anything scummy here. It's true that we all forget things, but to just ignore my argument? Eh. That's not what I'm looking at, here.

Moving further back, into day 1 territory. I don't believe the move of votes from Patchu to Strago needs to be included, I don't see anything particularly relevant to this there. Defends Tom, which is a valid POV (I didn't believe Tom, a few others didn't either, but it wasn't the One True Way).

Another post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4601#msg4601):

Yeah, sure, we can get along with a cop. But why on earth would we do that when we don't really need to? We hammer Tom now, we get either dead scum or dead cop. If we wait, we can (potentially) later confirm his actual alignment and deal with him, all without smacking down an (uncountered, might I add) cop claim?

I suppose this is at the core of my suspicion of Andrew wanting a day 1 counterclaim from cops. This was clearly posted on day 1, and tried to argue for Tom's sake while mentioning no claims to the opposite have been made (and seeming to invite any). So no, he never said "HAY COPS CLAIM ON DAY 1" and I never argued such. But his words and the pattern of his posts certainly felt like he was trolling for claims or, at the very least, felt a cop counterclaim on day 1 was acceptable.

Looking farther back, I see nothing else really relevant to my case. However, here is that update that Tai seemed to want, of what exactly Andrew has said that seemed scummy and how it was said. Please comment, people. If this remains just between Tai and myself I fear Andrew's scumminess would fade into the background.

294

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 20, 2008, 03:33:52 PM »

Your post felt really offensive to me on a first read, and my original instinct was to lash back. But thinking back, I'm not convinced you're scum, just concerned over your apparent slip in logic, extensive lurking with an excuse I don't buy, unlike Alex (if there's nothing to weigh in, press lurkers to talk more, at least!), and the way you're going after me. I suppose it helped work was hellish until now, giving me some time.

...No, that game happened. I further mentioned that it was CARTHRAT that claimed cop day 1 in the game he referenced:

Okay. I can accept that the game happened, sure. It didn't seem certain, referring to Rat instead (you may use caps now and claim it's certain, but at the time you were far more hesitant in your terms, please recall), and at the time Andrew latching onto an example you said was faulty (not entirely wrong as I implied) didn't look good for me, nor your disregard of it during your vote. I don't really think you have a leg to stand on by going on about twisting your words when most of the content of your later post seems to do just that to me.

The second line you point out was A) typed before your post and B) addressing the two remaining people of the collection I was looking at. The line itself? A bit ambiguous, yes, I'll grant that, but construing it as "I think Andrew is the most suspicious period" is uh... yeah, no.

It's an interesting explanation, but my post to you called to light that no such explanation existed in your post itself which carried your vote. It might be apparent to you, I dunno. But I'm not supposed to guess at whatever you might possibly be thinking and not putting to ePaper, so asking for clarifications is very valid, and your entire behavior when I do this very basic thing doesn't leave me comfortable. And yes, it also makes it more clear for why your vote seems OMGUS since you spend most of your post looking at Andrew and then go after me without explaining your shift. You see something wrong with my argument? That's legit. But the way you disregard your own in the same post is, well, one of the things Patchu's being hounded over in her massive block of hammer text affair.

I pointed out what seems like a flat-out contradiction in what you were saying;

It's not a contradiction, as my follow up post mentioned. You choose to ignore it, so I'll reiterate.

At first, Andrew was talking in generic terms of outing cops as soon as possible to hit the lying scum. That was ambiguous enough for me to see as a desire for a day 1 counterclaim, especially his previous posts on the issue.

I did account for the second option of cop investigating another cop claim night 1, then coming forward, and addressed that as well. I think it is also a bad option, and stated why.

You're responding to it with:

Firstly, I flat out don't see the implication you seem to see of him saying day 1 reveal is ideal - or even good, really - in the topic. Reference this post you're drawing this from, for the love of heaven, so I can see what you're actually talking about.

So here's the thing, I see it and you don't. I'd like other people to weigh in on whether they got the same impression I did, that Andrew was suggesting either a day 1 counterclaim or the night 1 investigation/day 2 claim. Am I the only one who walked away from Andrew's post with this impression?

...the part that spoke against your theory, that you seemed to glide over without noticing in your post? Seriously, he said the part I quoted (out of context, yes), but your post... was written as if it weren't there. That's the reason behind the vote. You raised the point of multiple cops - that's why you investigate the other cop claim first! If he is scum, you catch him and let him hang (ideally, you wait and see if he hangs himself, but assuming he doesn't). If he isn't, the second cop now knows there are two out there. Uh, where's the problem here?

You ask at the end of the post if I'd like to see anything else explained. This is something I would like you to devote a sole post on, please, so it stands away from the rest of the arguments, in part because the farther we go down your post the less it seems to have with my case on Andrew. Also, this seems the core of your reason to vote for me, and I'd like to understand it more clearly.

Would a theorethical cop 2 investigate a claimed cop 1 for night 1? Going as a private case of the cop behavior you're suggesting above, the answer would be yes. Myself, I'm not sure it's such a smart idea. I'm also not sure we should be having that particular discussion on cop behavior while the game proceeds, if it comes down to a matter of preference/playstyle.

I think part of the problem is that you seem to be commenting on things in a more general way, while Andrew seemed pretty adamant while talking of the situation that happened with us (days 1/2).

...wait what. Firstly. Even if you choose not to lynch -the claimed cop-, you can still, you know, hit scum on your first lynch not going on him. This is not impossible or even beyond the realm of fantasy. You are exercising the town's prerogative; kill all that is not town. A claimed cop? If the claim's true, then town benefits! (Assuming they aren't killed in the night, but you know.) If the claim's false, then the other cop can fell him. And the misinformation a good falsecop can spread can be -quite- nasty, a point Andrew has raised before.

This... actually doesn't relate to the discussion. What I'm calling Andrew out on is his apparent desire to have a cop counterclaim day 1/day 2. We are not discussing lynching/not lynching those who claim cop on day 1. Also, that 'assuming they're not killed in the night' is so laughable I won't comment on it.

Secondly... how do you know he would die?

Wait. So, like, right after going "(Assuming they aren't killed in the night, but you know.)" you're asking "how do you know he would die?"? I don't know this, no, but I find it bizarre that you would go after me for making a very likely (going by a precedent from past games) assumption you yourself make in that one paragraph. And then, to make it all the more puzzling, you go back on it in the next paragraph. How does that even work?

The rest of the paragraph deals with the definition of 1-for-1 and such. I'm willing to admit I could be wrong in defining it the way I did. Fine. I still think losing a cop early on in a large mafia game is worse than getting a scum of unknown power at that early time in the game, though it clearly isn't as bad a disadvantage as my previous numbers showed.

The lack of killing scum for the first day shows that... the next target town lynched was town. If the claimed cop is truthful (...let's leave EvilTom's falserole rightside claim out of this, since that's just mindraping), then you -didn't lynch the cop-. This is good. Else, yes, you avoided lynching scum... and will lynch him when the real cop has proof. ...I don't see much of the problem here.

Agreed. So? That's not what we're talking about. If you're trying to point to me staying on Tom despite the claim, then you can't divorce it from the claim coming from Tom who acted erratically. I strongly felt he was lying.

But that's beside the point, because we're discussing Andrew and fresh cops counter-claiming early on. Or are we? It seems you're moving farther and farther from that, while pressing on me. By all means, do the latter, but please keep it separate from your defense of Andrew.

On the latter, bolded paragraphs: I actually like the third option of the theorethical cop bravely fighting against scum and to support town based on the results of his investigations, without counter-claiming. You seem to believe there's either staying silent and letting scum fool town, or revealing yourself and going out in a flash of glory. There's surely another way.

295

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 20, 2008, 12:29:27 PM »

Looking at Andrew's recent post: lolwhat? I've never claimed cop falsely

AndrewRogue and El Cideon are, thus, the two remaining people I'm fairly suspicious of.

So, uhh, you're saying Andrew is wrong about the facts he claims support his theory of outing cops early, then you're saying he looks suspicious for his voting pattern (along with Cid), and you conclude this... with an OMGUS vote?

At first, Andrew was talking in generic terms of outing cops as soon as possible to hit the lying scum. That was ambiguous enough for me to see as a desire for a day 1 counterclaim, especially his previous posts on the issue. The other alternative from his post (from which your out of context, partial quote used against me comes) is to do so day 2 after investigating the other claim night 1. Which... yes, pretty much is the same thing. You lose a townie day 1 to lynch since you're not lynching the person who claimed, then you're outing yourself and will die, so it's a 2 for 1 exchange already, 3-1 while counting any night kills from night 1. And your real cop hasn't actually investigated anyone who wouldn't be caught in a lie soon enough. And, again, neither he nor you want to consider the possibility of more than one cop, which is extremely puzzling, and would rape this entire theory you two are supporting to bits and pieces while hurting town's chances even more.

How do you see this as a reasonable suggestion is beyond me. Please explain yourself, Tai.

296

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 20, 2008, 11:37:29 AM »

Wait, what.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=329.msg4907#msg4907

Andrew, just a couple posts above. In his last paragraph, do my lying eyes deceive me, or is he not only continuing his train of thought "REAL cops should counterclaim when there's another cop claim" but actually thinks it's the preferred option for day 1 cop claims? That made me blink so much on rereading.

As for the other thing... I could be mistaken, but I believe it IS important to catch scum impersonating cops ASAP as they can screw up the logic of the game really badly, really quickly. So yes, I do believe once they have some substantiation, real cop out to ought the liar as quick as they can. They have the potential for protection and they out a scum. And like I said, when we're going one for one, we're winning.

That's the most relevant portion.

Look, I can see the logic of lynching someone day 2 who claimed cop day 1 but didn't deliver the goods the next day. I'm not sure I entirely agree with it as a hard rule, since we should take player personalities and playing styles into account, as well as scumtells, etcetc. But the quoted portion just doesn't sit well with me, and you've been arguing that viewpoint even previously.

And then, we have this, closing that same post:

Also, please note, I did say once he could substantiate it. An immediate counterclaim is bad, my point was more that we had no conflicting evidence saying Tom was not cop

So either you're saying our real cop should out himself day 1 based on other cop claims, or waste the investigation he'll get day 1 (the only one, given that Tom perished for claiming cop that very night) on the other player who claimed cop? The one we'll probably lynch for lying or otherwise tripping himself anyhow? And, hell, what if there's more than one cop? Not impossible for a large game like this.

I hate getting into arguments like this, especially since they have the potential of doing scum's work for them, but really. How can anyone just ignore Andrew's behavior? The harm from his continuing suggestions is great, should people listen. The flaws in his proposed plans, many. Oh yeah, that's where my vote's going, not on some likely townie who doesn't play well and just went along with the herd.

##Unvote: Taishyr.
##Vote: Andrew.

For the record, I still think Tai is incredibly suspicious for lurking, but we are in this to hunt scum first, scummy-seeming behavior such as lurking next.

297

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 20, 2008, 11:14:06 AM »

The short answer (for me), smodge, is that Tom dominated day 1 to my immense dissatisfaction, to a point people slipped past my radar to a degree despite an earlier attempt to stay on the lurkers. Day 2, by the time I caught up to be in any position to start looking for scum and lurkers, you've posted enough to not be considered a real lurker. I'm still watching you, pretty much, but I'm not seeing anything too scummy so far. As long as you keep your current content quota without prompting from other players, I'm satisfied on this front.

298

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 20, 2008, 09:18:00 AM »

Ah, I should've been clearer, Alex. I know Hal a bit, so I wasn't going just by his past mafia games for a postcount. He just doesn't seem as active as I'd expect of him, and that's what I meant by 'usually'.

299

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 20, 2008, 08:57:45 AM »

Morning! Okay, catching up. First, responses to people addressing me and a scan for fresh arguments.

Cid and QR's thoughts on page 21 pretty much get the same response: it's not the first time I'm playing with Tom, him lying to try save himself/go for an incredibly bizarre gambit/both is exactly what I expected him to do, frustration was mounting over people believing him game after game... maybe that line QR quotes was out of line, but I don't think anyone was quite as successful in ruining what I like in a mafia game for me as he did. The context for 'keeping spirits up' was in relation to Reisen crying in a cardboard box, btw, so....

A note to Kilga: I unvoted Tonfa before Hal even voted for him, so the last two votecounts are wrong. Would you like people to leave a blank line before and after a vote/unvote so that you'd be able to catch it better? I dunno, I just like to rely on a mod's votecounts since they're supposed to be impartial, so I want them to be as accurate as possible.

To reiterate my thoughts on Patchu: Groupthink behavior just doesn't seem scummy to me, and that's how I see her actions. She's not the only one guilty of it, but she is the only one in danger of being lynched, and I would like to actually go after the people who are lurking and thus depriving us of reads on them than someone who is talking. It is my hope to divert the lynch on someone I don't see as scummy, so since Patchu doesn't seem to be doing much effort of pointing fingers towards better target, I should becoming more active in her defense. Again, it could all change if I see something in her future posts to catch my eye, but so far I'm inclined to believe in her and look elsewhere. A related issue is that total focus could be bad for us: it happened with Tom day 1, and it appears day 2 is turning into everything about Patchu. Therefore....

Here's a list of people playing (and still alive):

Code: [Select]

1. Nitori - Eirin Yagokoro
2. Chisa - Youmu Konpaku
3. Carthrat - Fujiwara no Mokou
4. Sir Alex - Ran Yakumo
5. AndrewRogue - Sakuya Izayoi
6. Taishyr - Marisa Kirisame
7. Tonfa - Yuyuko Saigyouji
8. Gatewalker - Hong Meiling
9. Oblivion Knight - Alice Margatroid
10. Shale - Yuka Kazami
11. Corwin - Kaguya Houraisan
12. Ciato - Keine Kamishirasawa
13. El Cideon - Remilia Scarlet
14. Yakumo - Flandre Scarlet
15. Otter - Reimu Hakurei
16. kneesockscloud - Patchouli Knowledge
17. Halbarad - Yukari Yakumo
19. Smodge13 - Komachi Onozuka
21. QuietRain - Sikieiki Yamaxanadu

There is a reason to my madness and copy-pasta, so bear with me for a sec. Okay, so take a moment to glance at the list. Can we all honestly say we remember all 21 are even playing?

Taishyr jumps out at me. Now that I see his name, I think he posted... sometime. About something. That's a red flag for me right there.

smodge is... eh. He seems to be making an effort, though he's being awfully conservative (for him). Could be his excuse, could be trying to lurk as much as he is able to.

Andrew, Hal and Alex/Ran of all people do post, but overall appear more silent than usually as well. Just a mental note for myself to watch for later, hardly anything approaching smodge levels of discrepancy.

Shale. Umm. I can get behind the feeling already presented earlier in the thread that 'lots of oneliners' is what I remember of him best. Someone to glance at, once I get a satisfying response from Taishyr.

So. ##Vote: Taishyr. You are playing, right? On our side?

300

Forum Games / Re: Touhou Mafia - Main Topic

« on: January 19, 2008, 08:14:19 PM »

I assume that was to me, Chisa? Yes, hammering is important. Hatbot wasn't mentioned as a desirable outcome, but to give an example of how a tie would be resolved rather than inviting 'no lynch'.