Tom was playing for Team Tom and lied, badly. Is anyone surprised? Probably those that jumped ship and moved off to lynch Strago. Well, why shouldn't we all have, some might ask, given Alex's insistence that cop claims trump everything. Aside from them being claims (and hey, just imagine Tom had survived the night to point fingers around randomly; that's a major hit to town, right there, and another day wasted), what about Strago? I don't know what Illusionist would be, here, but he certainly would have played better, and now we've lost that and his town-aligned role.
That said, I think it's a matter of playstyle/philosophy, and perhaps something to be debated in the general mafia thread, so I won't try to clutter the discussion with this here beyond this post.
Let's take a look at some people, then....
Agreement with QR on a lot of points in her page 15 post and follow ups (though we depart on a few minor things: she seemed to believe Tom was scum or useless as a cop, I leaned more towards town, as he always seems to be, but a lying one that doesn't care about town's chances much). QR also had the dubious privelege of sticking her neck out and tell the shifting mob that she would stay right where she is.
Reading on, I see smodge delurked to agree with QR and others keeping their votes on Tom. Given this is pre-flip, I'm getting a mild town vibe from that post of his (on page 16). He of all people would know Tom best, and he just doesn't give me a scummy vibe. I don't know, maybe I've debated myself into a standstill, but the things he says that seems like tells are too ridiculous to have come from scum (the changing of nicks, stating the obvious in the post I'm commenting about....) I dunno. Am I just looking past them because I'm used to smodge posting this way, and because I like it that he thought along the same lines as I did on Tom?
On Andrew. Eh. I guess I was too quick to call the things smodge mentioned self-evident. With a claim of Cop, did you really expect one to live through the night? Night kills, roleblocks, a variety of other annoying scum powers, a vig or SK that doesn't buy the claim.... I just don't see how we would have gained anything of use day 2, and that is taking as certain the claim in question, which we now know was false. Bad play, even stupid play? No, I'd consider eliminating a better player with a role as well to be that.
On Cid's page 16 post. You and Ciato think that it's okay to just go along with 'that's just Tom', and before the flip, I might have been convinced. But would you still give him the same leeway in a future game you're with him, when he claims cop or another useful role? Would you lynch the people he fingers there, if allowed to live and 'investigate'? Maybe I started out as more jaded than you, but there's surely a time when merely letting bad play go and ignoring it becomes suicidal. Yes, I see that you've come to roughly the same conclusions in the second half of your post, Cid, but for some reason you find it within you to give Tom just one more chance. In a long line of one more chances.
Page 17, I'm catching up! OK's post misses the point slightly. I do not advocate hitting people I know have played badly in the past. No. Even when he first began to act scummy, he didn't really get that many votes right away. If you look back, you'll see that I, Yakumo and a few others tried to offer Tom advice instead. We only ended up voting for him when he seemed to ignore it all and lash out at people. Ulterior motive? Err, right. I suppose I could admit to being slightly annoyed at my good will being wasted, but I firmly believe it hadn't affected my ultimate decision. Strago voting Tom after Tom voted Strago, and both of them being the lynch candidate? I don't think there's anything inherently scummy about that, especially if Strago felt his (to him) confirmed role was more important to town than Tom's claimed one. I would say more, here, but it's clearly too late to affect the outcome.
OH GOD PATCHCLOUD MY EYES MY EYES. You and smodge, I swear, you and smodge....
The crying image...
##Love: Reisen. Closest thing to a hug, even though it would be a bit improper with a pet.
At least the reactions to Tom's flip keep my spirits up. Ah, same old Tom, and people fall for it still.
Andrew's page 18 post, and Kilga's response. Eh, doesn't read to me like he was
also a cop one bit. Especially since Kilga adds that the illusionist is his own creation as opposed to the wiki, but doesn't comment on the doublevoter. By context, it strongly suggests the second role
is from the wiki.
Yakumo's follow up post to this really resonates with me in the part where he says those that jumped ship later on in the day are quite suspicious in their own right. Yes, that's right, Tom claimed cop. But let's not forget it took Ran barging in and loudly castigating Tom voters. So, uhh, "It's wrong to vote cop! But we can't tell this apparently basic fact on our own without Ran's help!" -- that's how it all seems to me. Not sure following a confident player is scummy in itself, but I'm not sure I trust the insight of such players as much.
Rat's post. The Tom part has been rehashed enough already, so let's look at his logic re: Strago train. Considering most of the late comers there departed from the Tom train, it was indeed possible to get some lurker lynched instead. Town only needed a majority for day 1 (and possibly for remaining days, I don't see anything about no lynch in the OP or Kilga's other posts). They alone might have been enough in changing the tide. Ran also doesn't look particularly good for choosing Strago, but in his case it was probably because he wasn't sure he could move people away from Tom, whom he seemed to believe, and thus didn't want Tom to perish in a majority vote. Still, couldn't you have picked a different target once you saw people were listening to you, Ran? This might be a bit of meta, but I can't help but think Strago could be more useful to town than some people who tend to stick to the shadows.
Finally, page 19! I think Alex is missing a (minor?) point with his analysis. Yes, if you're vanilla and someone claims cop... I could find myself in agreement. But if you have a strong pro-town role, while the other guy might be lying to save his neck... is it really that clear that you must submit yourself and deprive the town of your abilities based solely on that? I don't find it an obvious choice, and apparently neither did Strago. And that is even without considering who can help more with actual discussion, which surely is another factor.
Nitori fingers Tonfa, and I find myself agreeing that while I remember him posting, I don't remember actual original content. Worth a pressure vote, perhaps? If nothing better comes up when I'm done catching up, that's where it goes. Yes, Alex's case against Cloud seems decent for day 2, but I'm leery of following someone whose previous arguments I find myself disagreeing with. I'll just wait on a response from Cloud, first. Ditto on Chisa, since similar logic seems to be in use, there.
Find myself agreeing with Ciato that the outcome was hardly a hit to morale, unless QR meant annoyance at townies lying for no reason and making the others less willing to play. However the case, I think we'll get over it.
Smodge:
Read over all the pages, god i get called into discussion even when im not here.
Corwin - seems to be keeping quiet
Pot, kettle. I'm allowed to sleep, right? Especially on the weekend?
Anyway, I'd like to think I've stuck my neck out just as much as anyone else so far. My arguments are largely my own and don't parrot anyone else's. Even if I agree with someone, I try to explain the ways I came to that conclusion or where I depart from that of the person I'm seconding. If there's more I can do to help you with getting a better read on me, by all means, I'm open to suggestions. (this isn't sacrasm or anything of the sort, do tell me what I should do here short of being lucky to hit scum so early into the game). The other reason I'm commenting on this is because I generally find myself nodding to your views on the people you covered this time around (aside from myself, clearly).
Okay, done with the thread.
##Vote: Tonfa, as promised. Like I said, pressure vote. I notice your post near the end of the recent posts, yes, but I see it as an explanation of your own actions rather than insight into other people. And after saying that... you relurk for a nap. Fine, I've been known to slumber myself. Once you wake up, this vote will be here to remind you that you promised to post more original content. Please do.
P.S.
smodge, thoughts on Tonfa?
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