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« Last post by SnowFire on October 22, 2024, 03:20:43 AM »
Whew! Okay, finally added in the with Emblems side topic, only ~18 months late. It was definitely more work than the original topic.
Note that base Madeline, Gregory, & Zelestria of the DLC Four Winds were edited in awhile ago above for those curious (but still aren't in the no-Emblems no-DLC average), along with some very cursory notes on boss Marni. Maybe I'll add Nel & Nil at some point too, just lazy since they have their own unique weapon type.
Preliminary DL ranking thoughts: Characters + Emblems
Just listing the plotty claims here.
High Heavy: Alear & Marth
Heavy: Madeline & Roy, Timerra & Ike
Low Heavy: Diamant & Roy, Rosado & Eirika
High Middle: Veyle & Marth, Zelestria & Sigurd, Ivy & Lyn
Middle: (N/A)
Low Middle: Alfred & Sigurd, Mauvier & Micaiah
High Light: Céline & Celica, Hortensia & Byleth
Light: Yunaka & Micaiah, Gregory & Celica
Low Light: Seadall & Corrin
More detailed thoughts below.
Most of the cast
As a reminder, Ultimate attacks have 100% Hit and can't be counterattacked. Won't repeat this for everyone, but this gives a lot of the cast some game against stuff like perfect evasion or counterattacks, if only for a single hit. (But they can't double, so sometimes there's a damage loss here if the unit was doubling.)
Also, assume any of the cast good enough to get to the upper echelons of Heavy will have some sort of "loses to good status" disclaimer, as most of the status blocking in Engage isn't very relevant to the nonsense turn 1 I-win status in Heavy.
Marth
Marth users get lots of offense & dodginess, but no durability improvements, so tend to be a bit papery if they actually get hit. If they do eat a hit but it isn't fatal, Unyielding Spirit's healing can potentially just roll it back, and the 2 dragons heal a bit when attacking anyway. Rapier offers an additional +20 Avo on top of that, although damage starts getting a bit sus… although Rapier also lays the hurt on vs. Armored & Cavalry units.
* Alear+M is just a really scary High Heavy dodgetank. Can pulse their damage with Lodestar Rush and otherwise put a lot of pressure on via doubling while dodging everything (47.5 damage when doubling with a SS +3); you want ITE or status ailments that don't check evasion to handle them. Wille Glanz is still there if he wants range 2 as well.
* Veyle+M.. well, Veyle really has no synergy with Marth (Daggers & Tomes don't break anything for Break Defenses, she can't always have Sword Avo up), and her meh damage means that healers can theoretically just outwait her Engage which will forcibly drop her swords & Sword Avo skill. I guess if she poisons a stalling foe it'll buff the turn 4 Lodestar Rush? Still, despite being papery, the evasion + regen is way too much for Light, and frankly maybe even for Middle. Somewhere on the Middle / Heavy border.
* Lapis+M is a fun pick whose evasion is even better than Alear's (101% evade with a Rapier!!1!), although note that some enemies with cracked out Hit higher than 145 do exist in-game. Functions pretty similar to Alear in Heavy, just with slightly worse damage and no healing but even MORE speed.
Sigurd
Sigurd users don't get a very useful ultimate (occasionally helpful to turn off counterattacks), but that Hit boost synergizes well with the inaccurate Brave Lance. You might spot them more Momentum damage on turn 1 if you're feeling nice and let them barrel in from 10+ squares away.
* Alfred+S is a passable slugger, but he's doubled by average. His decent phys durability and Silver Lance counters will still get him some victories, and he has Tyrfing as an emergency anti-mage option (but the damage cut means it's still a bit sus). Somewhere on the Light / Middle border, gets pasted by mages but usual FE counterattacks being good in Light slugfests comment here.
* Zelestria+S just has good all-around stats and manages to make a mixed damage build work, although in practice she's mostly a mage. But she doubles average and can blast fools with Bolganone and isn't completely made of paper. High Middle?
* Louis+S takes advantage of Louis's good Str and Sigurd's Hit +X to really, really hurt people with a Brave Lance, while sitting back on his immense General durability. If you use Movement as a tiebreak for average speed, this is also a General with 10 Move. Just hopes there aren't any mages out there since everyone doubles him. Middle.
Celica
Despite having a Str boost in her kit, Celica is the most locked-down Emblem to Mystical types in the DL, having lots of boosts that only apply to Mystic units and very little for other class types. Echo can be cute in-game if you have lots of chain attacks set up, but is just kind of a mild damage increase and that's it in a duel. Tome Precision isn't really reliable in-game for making a dodgy unit, but every bit helps.
* Céline+C combines average damage with average speed and below-average durability. Her damage does improve vs. the slow as then she can double with Echo'd Bolganone, and she is a bit dodgy thanks to Tome Precision? So she has a few tricks, if she isn't quickly put away by a fast thief or the like. High Light?
* Gregory+C has horrible phys durability and 18 Speed, so most physical units can easily double and kill him. If you don't kill him fast though, his Echo'd Bolganones are 0.73 PCHP, so he hurts a lot. (Spot him Nova from his evil boss form if you're feeling nice!)
* Lindon+C is kind of in-between the above two, being a little slower than Céline but much more magically durable, and also packing a funny Elsurge +3 27% Crit game if he's in a stall-off. Probably another Light.
Micaiah
How the mighty have fallen. Micaiah is extremely good in-game, and extremely bad in the DL. An ultimate that reads "reduce your HP to 1" in a duel is not a good start, and most of her effects are niche-to-useless. Investing in Resistance +5 and her natural Res buff makes her users a bit magic-tanky, at least.
* Yunaka+M is not much of a mage, so her spells are largely wasted except when facing cav/armor targets for Thani. The attack speed average has risen such that she is only +4.4 Spd over average… barely missing the threshold to double average, in other words. At least her damage will improve a bit after her foe is poisoned? Light.
* Mauvier+M is more of a genuine magic tank, and mixed damage lets him exploit his foe's weakest defense. He might actually be able to make use of Nosferatu's drain game vs. the undamaging or those of low magic defense. Low Middle.
* Bunet+M.. Well Bunet drew the short straw here, nobody wanted to be Micaiah victim #3. In-game non-mages are a decent Micaiah target due to giving them Staves for utility, but he really doesn't get anything from Micaiah other than the improved magic durability for a duel, while all the other averages have gone way up. High Light.
Roy
Roy just creates general stat-monsters and the extremely handy Hold Out allowing a free extra turn if you'd be about to die. The Binding Blade is also one of the best Emblem weapons - great tankiness AND range 1-2. The only problem is that Roy doesn't really provide a way to pulse damage other than the +10 damage from Flame Terrain of Blazing Lion, which is only helpful if not doubling and not THAT big anyway. So healers can potentially stall their way through 4 Engage turns, then handle the untransformed unit that just lost the Binding Blade.
* Diamant+R has a similar problem to Yunaka in that the attack speed average crept up high enough such that Diamant barely doesn't double average anymore at 32 AS. He's still extremely solid with range 1-2 counterattacks and lots of durability and Hold Out, just doesn't like stallers or healers very much. Low Heavy?
* Madeline+R theoretically balances her awesome Strength / Defense with terrible Dex (she deals more damage on average with an accurate Iron Axe than a Silver Axe!), except whoops the Binding Blade randomly has 95 Hit (much better than Wille Glanz, Ragnell, etc.). So she's just monstrously unkillable with physical damage, and even mages have trouble because of her free Hold Out turn and counterattacks. Heavy.
* Kagetsu+R is just usual Kagetsu shenanigans of doubling everyone except now he does it at range 1-2 and with Hold Out / BB's defensive buffs. He can farm a Killing Edge crit pretty quick, too. Heavy.
* Jean+R is more of a fun pick. His Strength buffs make his punch-out plan surprisingly decent, a rarity, but that's not the real appeal. No, Hold Out + Self Healing is basically checkmate to quite a number of opponents who now have to outwait 80 Mend Staff charges (or 100 Heal staff charges!) to kill Jean. Classic anti-healer tech like critical hits don't work; you really need to get in a double-action on Jean to beat this. Or deadly status or Silence, of course. High Heavy.
Leif
Leif users get a big damage-dealing ultimate, which is always nice for the DL. On the downside, Adaptable is finicky and can be baited into switching to the Light Brand (terrible for non-mages) by anyone who can attack with an axe. Leif teaches Knife Precision for building a dagger dodge-tank, but then Adaptable won't switch to knives since they never have triangle advantage. Frustrating. Oh well, at least Zelkov / Merrin can just refuse to Engage Leif until they're ready to Quadruple hit for the win.
* Zelkov is very dodgy and surprisingly durable, but only mildly quick rather than actually fast, and undamaging. Middle.
* Panette utilizes her murderous Strength to just OHKO average durability with a 1.09 PCHP Quadruple Hit with 100% accuracy. She's durable enough to not be trivial to one-round either. Occasionally her Vantage+ game will come into play against durable foes who can't one-round her. Heavy.
* Merrin is dodgy like Zelkov, and trades his durability for being notably faster including doubling average. But like him she's on the undamaging side. Middle.
Lucina
Lucina users aren't very impressive. (Act shocked, the Emblem based around team-up attacks translates poorly to a duel.) The good news is that Bow Agility makes them dodgy (I gave her to archers), the bad news is that Lucina doesn't really help their damage much while the damage average of other Emblem-users has risen. At least there's some usual cavalry / armor / dragon spoiling with weakness hitting weapons? Parthia in theory offers some extra magic durability, but it's so heavy that the simple Silver Bow is often better.
* Etie+L manages to hustle it out to average speed thanks to Lucina's speed boost! That will help a lot in Light slugfests, since at least Etie deals damage and now has a bit of evasion. Which she will also need given her frailty.
* Alcryst+L - for someone with low base damage, he makes it work. He doubles average and has a 48% chance of Luna to fix his damage woes, and coinflip evade. Probably a Low Middle, somehow.
* Anna+L is pretty similar to Alcryst except trading Luna for the option of either Silver or Radiant Bow, depending on her enemy's worse defensive stat. Probably a losing trade, High Light?
Lyn
Lyn is amazing in-game, where it's usually harder to let a unit double than it is to let them 2HKO. She's a bit shy on damage in the DL, but more speed is always appreciated. If you're feeling nice, you might allow Lyn-users to have a "turn 0" initiative round thanks to Astra Storm's immense range. (For all that some units will be able to heal/buff on that turn 0 anyway to undo it… oh well.) Call Doubles is also basically "free" vs. melee opponents, as even if they hack one double down, it means that the Lyn user will get 3 chain attacks their next attacks to increase their damage. Not a wasted turn vs. ranged opponents though, as FE characters still have counterattacks and it can set up a murderous turn 2. (Although in fairness, multitarget effects are way more common in the DL than in Fire Emblem, and those hose the 1-HP doubles decently well.. although the doubles can still be dodgy.)
* Ivy+L fixes Ivy's weak speed, so now she's doubling average with her strong magic and putting on a lot of pressure with her chain-attacking friends. She's still not that dodgy or durable, so powerful physical ranged units can still mess her up, but.. still pretty good. And her Mulagir game isn't totally dead if she's facing another flyer. Probably High Middle.
* Fogado+L has absolutely cracked speed with Mulagir (50 Spd! vs. a 28.6 average!) but is quite undamaging, but that's where the 68% evade comes in. And the Chain Attacks from doubles, as those deal fixed damage based on max HP. Honestly might make Low Heavy anyway, despite getting spoiled some by multitarget damage as he really likes the clones saving his offense.
* Goldmary+L is usually a tank, but what's better than a tank? A tank with lots of speed, that's what. She's very dodgy AND can take a hit. Another Low Heavy.
Ike
Ike is how you make any ol' unit into a mega-tank. There are checks for this in-game, but they're largely chain attacks - in a strict duel, an Ike user with Resolve+ and Urvan / Ragnell is indeed a tough target to take down. (Maddening Sombron has 58 Attack, so yeah, getting to 50-60 Defense tends to make most stuff ping.) Urvan is unusually accurate for an Axe, too (90 Hit!) making it a great weapon if you can heft it. But yeah, no Speed boost means Ike users aren't necessarily great at putting on fast pressure, but good luck actually killing them. I wouldn't really respect Great Aether too much except vs. bosses or notably poor mobility PCs, though.
* Timerra+I actually has decent speed as long as she chucks Ike's heavier stuff, which is helpful. In theory, healers can stall out Timerra's Engage status, but that risks getting bopped on the head with a Darude - Sandstorm. And vs. the slow (or the very fast), Timerra can safely opt for Ragnell or Urvan without losing much. Fears really powerful mages, but still a Heavy.
* Boucheron+I is a bit slower than Timerra, but has great Build so can just always go at it with Urvan / Ragnell. But no threat of damage pulsing unless he opts for a Killer Axe. Ultimately pretty similar, maybe a tad worse. Low Heavy?
* Jade+I is already a tank and Ike means she just stops taking phys damage. Mages have more game, but even they will have trouble chewing through her still-excellent magic defense while getting hit with a 2HKOing Urvan. Maybe better than Timerra, but another Heavy.
* Saphir+I is slower than Boucheron, but tankier. Probably another Low Heavy.
Byleth
While not messed with as badly as Lucina, Byleth's busted 4-way dance is off the table in a duel, and Instruct is wasted as well. Vajra-Mushti is quite niche, mostly coming up as a way to punch out high-Def, low-Res units in the DL. Sword of the Creator is theoretically okay, but we didn't really draw high-offense units here to exploit it properly. And Byleth's passive skills to learn aren't very strong. The one cool thing is that by investing hugely into Luck, Divine Pulse+ means Byleth users either almost never miss, or simply can't miss.
* Hortensia+B is very dodgy with all that Luck she invested in (56% evade!) and doubles average.. but still has 0.40 PDur, meaning she gets OHKO'd left and right if a physical attack does connect. And her damage isn't that special unless fighting a dragon (as you learn to your sorrow if you move Alear in too close vs. enemy Hortensia in C10). High Light, spoils mages, the inaccurate, and Lights who lack average physical damage.
* Framme+B theoretically has Arts synergy as a Martial Master, except that Arts Focus isn't even that useful. Despite the Sword of the Creator dealing a little less damage on player phase, she will probably prefer it in slugfests due to range 1-2 counterattacks (reminder that Arts only counterattack once so lose half their damage on enemy phase). While her evasion is okay (~30%), probably still stuck in Light, if a better one than her Emblem-less form.
* Vander+B - well, this is not a troll pick, as if you're still using Vander late-game, making him a mobile Dance of the Goddess bot is probably the best choice. Also, he's usually compromised by both low Build and low Dex for lategame, but Byleth's Cavalry weapon Aredhbar is actually pretty decent while only having 9 Weight (21 mt when attacking!), and Divine Pulse+ fixes his horrible accuracy. Sure, he's still slow, but he's probably just a normal Light rather than a Low Light.
* Pandreo+B gets to use the Thrysus, famous for breaking the balance of Three Houses. +2 Range is a little less cool in the DL, but it's still handy as it basically means Pandreo should dodge most counterattacks. He also gets a mild damage pump from being able to use Elsurge at range. All of that durability boosting from the Ikes & Roys of the world have made him easier to OHKO physically than before, but he's also dodgier now thanks to all the Luck he gets. Probably stays in Low Heavy off the Self-Healing & counterattacking game.
Corrin
Corrin is one of the three power Emblems in-game, as the nature of Fire Emblem makes Don't Move off Dreadful Aura one of the most powerful effects you can offer - especially when it's splashed around to multiple targets! In the DL, this allows units with a ranged attack (cough, cough, NOT DANCERS) to mock range-1 only opponents. Corrin also provides a boatload of HP for surviving long enough to set up some Dreadful Aura + Draconic Hex nonsense.
* Seadall+C .. leaving Corrin on Seadall is a crime. Just a horrendous waste. But okay, if we do it anyway, the good news is that Seadall manages to actually hustle out some damage, unlike the "base" topic where he struggled to break defense. And Draconic Hex actually kinda plays nicely with Arts - if he opens with a Corrin Ultimate, the Speed debuff from Hex will let him double average, and the -3 Def can potentially turn into +12 damage if he's quadding, making his damage merely bad (a 4-round KO) rather than awful! This gets him up to Low Light, rather than Puny. Hooray.
* Clanne+C can use some combination of Chaos Style and Draconic Hex to hustle out doubles which fix his somewhat uninspiring base damage. Sword Focus can make his sword hits very accurate in exchange for risking more enemy crit chance, a bad trade in-game but maybe occasionally relevant in the DL vs. dodgetanks. Since he now sports the "dunk on the helpless range 1 unit" game, he's probably High Middle, but healers and ranged units can still handle him.
* Citrinne+C is all-in on the range-1 spoiling plan. Opponents who have 2 range will double her slow & frail side without much trouble and probably kill her even through the Corrin HP boost. Good magic durability though means she can fight mages with the range-1 units. Low Middle?
Eirika + Ephraim
Eirika is absolutely one of the Emblems that scales the best in-game. Despite having no natural Str boost, enemy defense is quite high at endgame. As this stat topic assumes 25 enemy Defense, that means Eclipse Brace is offering +8 damage flat every hit. Eirika users can definitely make the tanks of the DL feel a lot frailer than they're used to. And a big damage ultimate is always appreciated. She also makes lance-users nice & dodgy. The crazy thing is that she's still arguably underrated, as Sieglinde's Corrupted effectiveness in-game is relevant against every single non-boss enemy from C19 or so onward, but unlikely to come up much in the DL.
*Rosado+E is very tricky to deal with. He's very dodgy thanks to Lance Agility, Eph's Solar Brace helps heal off any damage he does take, and his Twin Strike is a lot of damage. He can sort of heal-lock a lot of healers too via simply not immediately Engaging - you can't outwait an Engaged status if he isn't Engaged, so he can just serve with Silver Lance while threatening to Engage & immediately Twin Strike if Silver Lance + Twin Strike is a KO (it's 86 damage, so likely, or 91 if he does just Engage first). Low Heavy, maybe even just straight Heavy.
* Chloé+E's ultimates are a bit less devastating than Rosado's, but she's much faster, making her both dodgier and getting her more regular ol' doubles. Her magic is also a bit better, although her Flame Lance game probably won't come up very often. Another Low Heavy.
* Amber+E is just funny if you like watching people get run over by a llama. E+E's cavalry bonus is "Eph inflicts gratuitous overkill" and Amber has high Strength, so yeah, he just absolutely pastes you if he gets a turn with 1.22 PCHP damage. Stopping him from getting that turn is not trivial either, as his phys durability is fine and he sports some Lance Agility evade. Possibly a High Heavy? Who knew his secret power of friendship with Ephraim.
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