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Author Topic: Season 44, Week 3 - Cecilia goes commando versus Tales bosses and Light fails.  (Read 7217 times)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Actually, FF6 speed sucks really bad at determining first turn initiative due to the starting gauges being randomized. It's theoretically better at doubles than at determining initiative, which is heavily randomized (although this is mitigated by menus. ATB fails).
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Pyro

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Generally supporting the view that takes back row as standard for FF6. Its infinitely superior as a default then front-row, which offers virtually no worthwhile benefits in exchange for halving your physical durability. If doubled physicals actually beat out other row-ignoring forms of damage I'd be singing a very different tune.

Godlike:

Kefka Palazzo (FF6) vs Zeromus (FF4): And yet, he doesn't need gross overkill hype here. See Meeple on why Havok Wing definitely works well enough for this slugfest. Go forth and be owned by a bug, Kefka.
Van Grants (TotA) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1): Any number of ways around Van. Healing till Double-Cast being a good one too.
Chaos (FF1) vs Kurando Inugami (SH2): Chaos' HP isn't hot but the pdurability is nice. Fasted physicals work, I guess. Mostly just mimicking NEB here.
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Jade (BoF1): SMOKIN. Jade for champ.

Heavy:

Eirika (FE8) vs Alfina de Pamela (G3): Hmm. Criticals feel fair at the least for Swordmasters, who get them like every freaking turn. And they do tend to be turn 3 even considering them like statuses... I'll think about it. Actually, its Alfina we're talking about so Eirika just hits monster weakness and overkills. Yes.
Antenora (WA2) vs Jenova (FF7): Goin along with the crowd.
Decus (SO2) vs Suicune (PKMN): Pokemon smites Wiseman. Funny.
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Rose (LoD): Congratulations on IDing your way to the top, Hahn. Fear->OHKO, or 2HKO with her addition, or ID. Pick a poison. Though I guess he could try and debuff her speed in human form and attack on doubles? Doesn't seem like a winning strategy, honestly.

Middle:

Margulis (XSs) vs  Meganium (PKMN): Can't vote.
Keneth (S4) vs Valeria (Suikos): Not sure. Probably Kenneth?
Nelis (S5) vs Aika (SoA): Confuse weapon. Whatever.
Meredy (ToE) vs Albert Serdio (LoD): Destiny being once per ~30Min instead of once per ~hour makes me more inclined to allow it, but... not sure.

Light:

Zylo (SF1) vs Gogo (FF6): Tools or Blue Magic work. Gogo for champ.
Hix (Suikos) vs Kent (FE7)
Jean (BoF2) vs Cius (S5): Death.
Rafa Galthana (FFT) vs Fargo (CC): I had a little explanation on why average evade+average accuracy fails and literal evade+literal accuracy also fails. But then I figured I'd just avoid silly arguments and say that big damaging fighter > Rafa.

Meeplelard

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Actually, FF6 speed sucks really bad at determining first turn initiative due to the starting gauges being randomized. It's theoretically better at doubles than at determining initiative, which is heavily randomized (although this is mitigated by menus. ATB fails).

Actually, FF6 initial ATB gauges are NOT entirely randomized.  They are...to an extent.  The game puts weight into those with higher speed though.  By this I mean the game will usually make initial ATB gauges reflective off your speed stat. 

Say we have Locke, Relm, Terra, and Cyan using their default set ups.  This is a pretty wide curve, hence why I chose those 4 specifically.
In most cases, the initial ATB gauges will look something like Locke > Relm > Terra > Cyan.  Now, how much can vary, and there are cases where, say, Terra will have more than Relm, or Relm than Locke.  In VERY rare circumstances, Cyan will have more than Locke, but that's happening about as often as Yangus going before everyone else in DQ8.
Furthermore, Relm might start with a higher ATB gauge, but its possible that Locke will still go first anyway, thus offsetting the initial ATB advantage.

So the end result? The gauges are randomized, but it still allows faster characters to go first far more consistently, and this isn't a case of law of averages; its a case of its randomization being geared in favor of faster characters.


Granted, Kefka's fight, everyone starts with a full ATB gauge, so you could just say this offsets everything.  Personally, I'm inclined to either throw that quirk out entirely, given its clearly an aspect related to the whole Tier nonsense and nothing else. 

Next off...Kefka and Zeromus are pretty opposites actually in regards to speed.  Play an SCC, Kefka's speed really shows.  Meanwhile, Zeromus wasn't actually doubling as much as you'd think when I had to solo him with Cecil (...granted, I never actually won that fight due to him putting me on such a defensive in the second half to the point where I'd just run out of Elixirs.)

Zeromus getting constant turns is a quirk of FF4's Primitive ATB.  If you waste any time selecting commands, enemies gain more turns (time spent in actual menus ala Item or Magic need not apply; Wait kicks in there and thus time stops, etc.)

-----
On a completely different FF6 note unrelated to Kefka...

For people who allow Gogo to use skills, should be worth noting that he should pretty much decimate the rest of the field (if nothing else,  Sour Mouth  = Win for most fights right there.)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 03:13:03 AM by Meeplelard »
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superaielman

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Tools alone rapes the ever loving shit out of Light, I don't think that's in question.
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Actually, FF6 speed sucks really bad at determining first turn initiative due to the starting gauges being randomized. It's theoretically better at doubles than at determining initiative, which is heavily randomized (although this is mitigated by menus. ATB fails).

The problem with lapping isn't the menus, but the fact that even under Wait ATB bars will fill during any battle animation for everyone except the person currently executing a move.  That means that if you're using moves with at least moderately lengthy animations (which is pretty much anything high end) chances are nobody will actually be able to lap anyone else no matter what the speed gap, despite the ATB bar visibly increasing faster.

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Well, unless you try and be clever by opening a menu during your party's moves and letting time ride on during your enemies'.

OblivionKnight

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Godlike:

Kefka Palazzo (FF6) vs Zeromus (FF4) - Zeromus...is more durable by a long ways, but falls off in damage compared to Kefka.  Good fight.  Both are evenly matched here, I think.  Of course, unless Kefka happens to have a pearl, he can't fight the frue Zeromus, so...
Van Grants (TotA) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) - Another good one, but...Van takes this.  Multiple hits kicks Cecilia's Hide skill, and that's about that.
Chaos (FF1) vs Kurando Inugami (SH2) - Chaos.  Healing > healing.
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Jade (BoF1) - Yunalesca.  Damn regen and healing.  Her durability is pretty fantastic here, and Absorb...tips it, in the end. 

Heavy:

Eirika (FE8) vs Alfina de Pamela (G3) - Alfina.  Her defense isn't that low, and her HP are basically average.  Also, depending on what accessories you give to characters as default AND if you take Hect into the average or not...she's either average speed or above.  After that...Holy Circle (let Eirika counter herself to death) or Stun Force, or both, own her.
Antenora (WA2) vs Jenova (FF7) - Jenova. 
Decus (SO2) vs Suicune (PKMN) - Decus, probably - just simply far more durable, and, while the damages are pretty crazily different here with weaknesses and resistances...boss durability for me, fun stuff!
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Rose (LoD) - ...guess this is Rose's.  Gelun, Doran...no.  Can't think of any crazy-odd tactic that would work here.  This is a match HUGH could win, but...not Hahn <_<

Middle:

Margulis (XSs) vs  Meganium (PKMN) - Margulis.  Yay!
Keneth (S4) vs Valeria (Suikos) - Valeria. 
Nelis (S5) vs Aika (SoA) - Aika.
Meredy (ToE) vs Albert Serdio (LoD) - Meredy.  Not sure what I'd give the mages for sure (just...a couple options, though probably would go with forced cages...even though those aren't entirely set in stone), but Destiny is enough here either way.  Though...if Albert survives it and Defend Heals...he probably makes it out alive.  Unless he didn't have ID defense.

Light:

Zylo (SF1) vs Gogo (FF6) - Gogo.  Get up to Heavy, Gogo.
Hix (Suikos) vs Kent (FE7) - Kent.
Jean (BoF2) vs Cius (S5) - Jean...though I'm hoping he loses, just so we can have the usual run of Jean failure >_>
Rafa Galthana (FFT) vs Fargo (CC)  - Rafa.  Yay
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alanna82

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Warning: Bizzare opinions ahead. Read at your own risk.

Kefka Palazzo (FF6) vs Zeromus (FF4)- Kefka
Van Grants (TotA) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1)- Van
Chaos (FF1) vs Kurando Inugami (SH2)- Chaos
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Jade (BoF1)- Jade

Heavy:

Eirika (FE8) vs Alfina de Pamela (G3)- I voted Eirika, but I forgot about Holy Circle >_>
Antenora (WA2) vs Jenova (FF7)- no vote
Decus (SO2) vs Suicune (PKMN)- Suicune. Yeah Water vs Fire, in pokemon...
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Rose (LoD)- Rose, finally Hahn loses!

Middle:

Margulis (XSs) vs  Meganium (PKMN)- no votes
Keneth (S4) vs Valeria (Suikos)- Valeria, Falcon rune takes care of Keneth.
Nelis (S5) vs Aika (SoA)- no vote
Meredy (ToE) vs Albert Serdio (LoD)- Albert, Meredy should have lost to Pent. Why is she allowed some summon that you can't even use every battle? How can you say it is recharged by her next match? With her starting spells, she is PUNY. Not allowing her craymels, since Keele can use those too and you can switch which ones they have. Yeah Albert is weak vs Magic, but Meredy's staring spells fail that much.

Light:

Zylo (SF1) vs Gogo (FF6)- Zylo, more damage and faster. Don't see why people see Zylo as bad, is he better in the remake (the version I played)?
Hix (Suikos) vs Kent (FE7)- Kent, more damage and just better all around
Jean (BoF2) vs Cius (S5)- Jean, probably wins this without instant death.
Rafa Galthana (FFT) vs Fargo (CC)- Fargo. The move hitting weakness is her weakest. Plus she loses her parasitic healing. Me no allow accessories unless they are starting or Unique. (Rafa's staring mantle isnt that good) so evade hype doesnt work.

for nominations: FE9 and Disgaea 2

Ultradude

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Are there any multi-hit attacks in Wild ARMs original on the enemy side? Now that OK mentions it, I guess you could say that Hide sees each hit in a combo as an individual attack.
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Niu

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Godlike:
Kefka Palazzo- What a slaughter
Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde- Should have no problem beating someone who is two tiers below Dhaos
Kurando Inugami- I guess?
Jade- Splat

Heavy:

Eirika- Fe Anti vo... wait, she is fighting Alfina? Nevermind.
Jenova- Yeah
Suicune- And this is too one sided for me to anti vote
Rose- Immune ID

Middle:

Margulis- High Margulis respect
Valeria- How fitting of a fight of suiko scrubs
Aika
Albert Serdio- One shot of Destiny is not enough

Light:

Gogo
Hix- Now I can go back to anti vote FE here
Jean
Fargo

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Remember, alanna, that you can change a vote after submitting it.

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Decus, probably - just simply far more durable, and, while the damages are pretty crazily different here with weaknesses and resistances...boss durability for me, fun stuff!

I'm honestly not quite sure if this vote is just trolling or not, but... <_<

Okay, Suicune halves Decus' damage, and does double damage in return. Gets worse, though. Suicune has Rain Dance, which boosts water damage and halves fire. So Decus gets his damage quartered against someone over 1.5 average PC durability, while Suicune's normally 2HKO damage is multiplied by 3 into massive pain. To see Decus winning this, you'd have to see him with something over 10PCHP or so, I think? Gets even worse if you see Suicune as FRLG and he can start spamming Calm Mind, I suppose. (I consider Crystal.)

Which... I understand you have more boss HP respect for most, but it's usually not an order of magnitude more. It seems incredibly inconsistent with some of your other votes. And in particular here, if average damage against Decus is 10000 (seems very low to me if anything), he still dies to 18 average attacks =  about 7PCHP if you use the 2.5x convention.


Also, on the Van thing, I want to restate it: Van is not a speed demon. He is not able to pressure Cecilia into a quick loss, so she doesn't need Hide; just Quicken and healing until either a double, an evade, or enough FP to use Dualcast. I don't think I see Sync as fast enough to pull that off (Cecilia's boosted speed is pretty excellent); for any other TotA boss it's a no-brainer.

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Godlike:

Kefka Palazzo (FF6) vs Zeromus (FF4)
Van Grants (TotA) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1)
Chaos (FF1) vs Kurando Inugami (SH2)
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Jade (BoF1)

Heavy:

Eirika (FE8) vs Alfina de Pamela (G3)
Antenora (WA2) vs Jenova (FF7)
Decus (SO2) vs Suicune (PKMN)
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Rose (LoD)

Middle:

Margulis (XSs) vs  Meganium (PKMN)
Keneth (S4) vs Valeria (Suikos)
Nelis (S5) vs Aika (SoA)
Meredy (ToE) vs Albert Serdio (LoD)


Light:

Zylo (SF1) vs Gogo (FF6)
Hix (Suikos) vs Kent (FE7)
Jean (BoF2) vs Cius (S5)
Rafa Galthana (FFT) vs Fargo (CC)
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Talaysen

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Are there any multi-hit attacks in Wild ARMs original on the enemy side? Now that OK mentions it, I guess you could say that Hide sees each hit in a combo as an individual attack.

No, but I think Hide only wears off if Cecilia counters an attack.  Are you going to hype WA generic counters kicking in on multiple hits too?  Not seeing it.

Honestly, saying multiple hits > Hide seems extremely silly since there's no evidence either way, and in general multiple hit attacks still count as one attack.

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Godlike:
Van Grants (TotA) vs Cecilia Lyne Adelhyde (WA1) - The only way I can see Van winning this is if he one shots Ceci. And that's not happening. TotA bosses wishes they had Dispel...or something not borderline 2HKO before limit range. Long and short of it, survives one shot, Quicken, lap, Hi Heal and buff to victoly.

Middle:
Margulis (XSs) vs  Meganium (PKMN) - Gut anyway. Fire damage against dino plant probably does way too much damage early on for it to recover.

Light:
Rafa Galthana (FFT) vs Fargo (CC) - Fargo's probably living past 2-3 turns, so at worst, he uses a bunch of weak lv.1 physicals to build up some accuracy to use his stronger attacks while building element levels. Rafa even with the Elf Cloak isn't an evade goddess and will likely eat a full chain + Invincible. Not to mention her own pseudo healing is chancey and if she goes that route, she can't resist his damage. 
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