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Author Topic: Pre stat topic discussion SO4  (Read 2067 times)

Clear Tranquil

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Pre stat topic discussion SO4
« on: June 15, 2009, 10:36:01 AM »
I was thinking of collaborating on this with Djinn (if you're still interested Djinn?)

Thoughts on how to take the PCs -

* Bare minimum approach  - Best store bought weapons and armour pre final boss, special arts gained from levelling up and chests, default accessories and battle skills only. The least work obviously but not very interesting. Lymle at least gets a Fire Amulet for a chance of nulling fire damage and Arumat is happy as irrc he is the only one to come with Chain Combos already learned.

* Allow Chain Combos + unique/semi unique store bought skills - Everyone can chain their special arts reflecting in game usage of your controlled character, toss out other generics like HP/MP Boost, First Aid, Auto Healing etc though. The fighters would get only skills they can learn like Berserk and the same for the mages in Mind Flare. Only Reimi and Meracle can learn Focus so they would get that, etc.

* Creation based - This one is kind of quirky but interesting, instead of the above a PC would be able to use whatever from their own specific item creation talent. So Meracle would be able to use equipment from Crafting, Edge from Smithery, Lymle would be able to use symbol cards, Bacchus would be able to use bombs 'n stuff from Engineering, etc.

Thoughts?~
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 10:37:41 AM by Clear Tranquil »
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Pre stat topic discussion SO4
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 11:25:32 AM »
I was leaning towards the Creation-based approach personally. They can create it with their unique in-game starting skills, so they seem legal to me.

Meeplelard

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Re: Pre stat topic discussion SO4
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 03:19:09 PM »
I don't agree with Chain Specials.  Its an ability that's 100% universal and not learned naturally.  It also leads to massive arguments as we've seen in chat people have claimed some combos are viable while others have different experiences with them (Like someone claiming Crimson Squall chains perfectly with itself, when several people have had experiences (including myself) claiming it very much DOES NOT), especially since some characters like Reimi require massively on ranged aspects that can completely change the viability of those combos.  This isn't like SO3 where Chaining is an innate feature; you can only chain when you gain the ability, which is something every character gets *AND* gains through non-natural/plot means, which is to say, goes against the very nature of the DL (unqiue, natural, or plot given skills only, in short.) 

And it doesn't really reflect in game use that much.   Consider the differences between SO3 and SO4 for a moment:

SO3, there was the Fury system.  A character had a restriction of how many moves they can chain together, and what not.  As a result, the amount moves would chain would also vary in addition to the damage boost.  Fayt being able to only go like Side Kick -> Ethereal Blast for example was a flaw for him, where as Maria could chain together like 6 Scatter Beams or whatever, for good damage off a basic move.  Furthermore, moves like Dimension Door and Vampiric Flash exist; the "Continuals" where you can up its damage by increasing the duration of the move, but it drains more Fury the longer the moves duration.  It was a far different system, and not only was Chaining 100% innate, every character functioned with it differently.

SO4? Everyone can go Physical -> 6 Specials.  There's no restriction barring MP here, and I don't think that's going to matter much in the DL. Everyone benefits in the EXACT SAME WAY here, unlike SO3, so really it just goes into a debatable field of "what moves are most viable to chain together!?!?"  In game, furthermore, it was important for how often you can keep an enemy tied up (until they used Rush *shakes fist*), something that, again, does not apply to the DL.  Its not unique in the slightest, and not naturally gained, and it doesn't actually reflect in game usage that much, cause everyone can use it the same way. 

So yeah, I honestly think Chain Combos are 100% "no" in the DL. 

For skills...2 users at most.  This is the standard for a cast about the size of SO4's.  I don't know what this allows, but No to any skill usable by more than 2 PCs...

EXCEPTION: Faize and Arumat.

If there are 3 users of a skill, and 2 of them are Faize and Arumat, I'd still allow it.  IIRC, all of Faize's skills go to Arumat anyway, and the two are never in the team together, so yeah, for the purposes of skills, I'd treat them as the same character.  So if we have 3 users, and Faize and Arumat are two of them, I'd still be cool with allowing it.

The Creation thing?

I think SO2 dealt with this before, and it was agreed No.  Just cause a character can create an item doesn't mean they should be allowed to use it.  I seem to recall a few items in SO2 can only be created by a specific character or two, and as a result, would be the same deal.  Its basically giving them a DL advantage they clearly don't have in game, reason being everyone can take advantage of that object Meracle creates.  She creates it, but it still goes to the party's inventory, and you can hand it to Lymle (assuming she can equip it) just as easily as you can hand it to Meracle. 
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Pre stat topic discussion SO4
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 03:41:18 PM »
Yeah, I know my interps on equip legality are a little unusual.
The IC equips that are unique to the individual characters' crafting skills fall under how I hand out 'plot-given equips'. For the record, I'd allow the SO2 equips too.

-Djinn

superaielman

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Re: Pre stat topic discussion SO4
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 04:32:49 PM »
The smallest range of 'unique' SO2 gets for anything not related to weapons is 4/12, so screw that. I don't have a problem with allowing most SO2 IC in general, but because a slightly smaller fraction of the cast can make an equip. Claude/Rena cover 90% of what you can make and they're forced.
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Pyro

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Re: Pre stat topic discussion SO4
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 10:39:37 PM »
I don't have an objection perse to Chain Combo, although it makes life harder for the poor sop doing the topic. The only way you can go (horribly) wrong here is to say that Arumat gets it while no one else does. I'm pretty sure he just copies Faize's learned skills so I doubt he even gets it if Faize hasn't learned it. This isn't much different from the SO3 Berserk situation, I don't think.

I don't have any objections perse to allowing storebought stuff like Berserk and Mind Flare and so on. It's not 'unique' but it's essentially a class skill. Irregardless, skills usable by only two characters should be allowed, although I don't think there are many of these and like Meeple said Faize/Arumat count as one. Also I'd allow Focus for Ponytail hottie and underage catgirl even though TECHNICALLY Sarah can use it because quite frankly Sarah has no physical attack.

Stay away from the IC item-usage hype. Stay far away.

Quite frankly I have no idea what the hell you are to do with equipment, but I guess you should go for the best you can acquire for each character outside of aftergame/replays. Since weapons are unique that is easy, and I think the best synthable armor is reasonable. Failing that you can use best storebought armor.

I understand the aftergame has some skills but I never saw them and I wouldn't touch them. Everyone else seems to have no problem hyping aftergame 'skills' because they are different from 'equips' so whatever floats your boat there I guess.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 10:41:17 PM by Pyro »

Talaysen

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Re: Pre stat topic discussion SO4
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 08:11:35 PM »
Hell no to Chain Combos.  You get it the same way you get Grandia 3 magic and a whole bunch of crap people don't allow.  Don't see any reason to allow this unless you allow all that.

Honestly, I'd say 3 users and lower is good for skills.  4, maaaybe, but that's kind of pushing it.  Anything more than that is definitely out (those are probably all universal anyway).

I don't think Arumat actually legally starts with Chain Combos.  As far as I know, he just keeps whatever skills Faize learned, though he might lose some that he can't use.  If that's really the case, Chain Combos is not legal for him either (unless you allow it for everyone else, but already weighed in on that).

IC item stuff... just allow it or don't allow it.  PCs making stuff with their own skills making it legal only for them is... not really enough of a claim to make things legal for them.  Honestly, I'd lean more towards just allowing IC stuff period than that, though considering SO4's IC system, I'm not sure I'd even allow that since stuff is so annoying to get.

Clear Tranquil

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Re: Pre stat topic discussion SO4
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2009, 11:14:32 AM »
Alright folks it looks like we're going skill based sans Chain Combos then (class based skills *will* be allowed, haven't settled on a limit for other skills beyond that tho') I might add in combo data later on for comparison but right now keeping it simple is a lot less work and probably less psyduck all round. If I ever get time I might add some Creation based ideas for the Djinns <(^^)> Personally I already allow SO3 characters things that they can make themselves or as a group, barring overpowered stuff of course - and like Djinn am a lot more liberal as to what is and isn't allowed from a game in the DL >_> *flees* <_< There are exceptions of course ... like MK's full status blocker ... *double flees*

Equipment wise I now know what Pyro is talking about as it turns out that the final dungeon doesn't actually hold equips for everybody (checked a FAQ) and niether does the best main game shops. In fact apparently Arumat doesn't even *get* a new weapon sans his default from the time he joins till the end of the game w/o IC >_> (I just made him a Laser Scythe)  How does comparable end game IC weapons for all sound to peeps then?  Basically I/the player would be creating a bunch of weapons before properly tackling the final dungeon. Though Edge/Lym/Bacchus could use their final dungeon equips I guess if they're not that bad *me eyes Laser Weapon on Meracle - too bad those aren't storebought like SO3 >_>)

Thanks a bunch for all the input everyone, it was much appreciated and I enjoyed reading it~
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 11:16:31 AM by Clear Tranquil »
"A Yeul that loved to sing. A Yeul who wished to travel. A Yeul that collected flowers.... Every one of them was unique"

Meeplelard

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Re: Pre stat topic discussion SO4
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2009, 03:03:44 PM »
Comparable end game IC works, yeah.  I just remember there being an IC weapon for Meracle that was like 1300 Power with ridiculous requirements for items to find?  The Laser Weapon was like 900 Power (and like 200 Magic, or some such; I forget what, but the magic boost was comparably obscene, just, Magic is on a lower scale than physicals and I can't remember by how much) and that was the strongest weapon by far I had until the very final dungeon where...Bacchus? got a 930~ Power weapon, so yeah. 

If I had to guess, I'd wager most characters get weapons somewhere hovering around the 1000 range end game if it was through IC, but I honestly don't know enough.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Talaysen

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Re: Pre stat topic discussion SO4
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2009, 09:03:35 PM »
IC weapons that can be made in the maingame should be allowed if they're unique, because, well, they're unique.  If the requirements are utterly ridiculous then maybe not, but yeah.