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Author Topic: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)  (Read 1444 times)

SnowFire

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Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« on: January 01, 2009, 11:33:46 PM »
No, this isn't Mega Man from one of the various spinoff RPGs, but rather everyone's favorite robotic vampire, the classic Mega Man 1-3 version.  Since it seems that there's a Mega Man fandom at this site, I figured this might be an interesting thought experiment.

As is well-known, the trick with Mega Man is the order he goes through the stages- he starts off a wuss, and by the end he's got a whole arsenal of cool options stolen from defeated enemies.  So judging Mega Man straight up in the DL is even more impossible than usual, because he starts off a Light and ends up Godlike.

So.  The goal is rather: Construct an ideal "season" in which Mega Man wins every match and is ready to take on Godlike's finest in a Dr. Wily-style stage afterward.  In other words, everyone knows that Mega Man is awesome given him draining lots of powers, but how awesome can you make with as few matches as possible, each winnable?  Preferably 4 or less, given that's the standard RPGDL season, but longer chains are fine too.  A random example season might be something like "WA:ACF Emma -> SH1 Alice -> P3 Chidori -> SO2 Claude," for an idea of what I'm thinking.

Note that this is a silly exercise with a zillion asterisks and caveats generated from being bored today.  You've been warned. 

So.  Assumptions!  The cast average is pretty easy, as Mega Man is in a solo game.  Mega Man starts off totally vanilla, with average stats all around (and no charged shots from later games of the series).  The only distinctiveness is that he has a ranged attack for when that matters, and he's mechanical type (damn you, Rikku and PS2 Josh).  Uncharacteristically (but making things much simpler) our Mega Man sucks at jumping out of the way (0% base evade) but is surprisingly accurate (100% base accuracy).

Now.  As for the "suck up the powers of the robot master clones of the DL" part.  There's a bunch of ways this can be interpreted, so let me set out two broad ideas.

Interpretation A: Every enemy Mega Man defeats becomes a new "form" he can switch to as a free action on his turn.  He can choose to start with whichever form he likes.  Each of these duellers acts like normal, except they have their own unique MP (and SP, FP, etc.) stat bars, but share the same percentage of HP and the same status effects / stat buffs.  That is, switching from Palom at half health to Auron would give you Auron at 50% Auron HP, not ~25% or whatever an absolute conversion would grant.

Pros: Easy to interpret, vaguely like the Persona 3 main character or RPGMon with a shared life bar and not losing turns for form switches.

Cons: Not very loyal to the way Mega Man works.  Equipping the Hard Knuckle does not increase Mega Man's defense, and the Quick Boomerang does not in fact make Mega Man faster.

I think the Cons to this are pretty big, even if this is the easiest to adjudicate.  Mega Man is always Mega Man; he just gets new skills and attacks from the robots he defeats, and it only adjusts his own abilities indirectly (Leaf Shield can be used for defense too, for example, but it's an "attack" that you actively use.).  So let's try this one as well.

Interpretation B: Every enemy Mega Man defeats adds to Mega Man's skillset.  Mega Man gets the defeated dueler's default physical attack (at the defeated dueler's power) and any active skills they had at their power (that is, skills which are "use this for your turn").  He gains no benefit from passive or defensive abilities (that is, passive = skills always on, and defensive = Fire Emblem counters, FFT Reaction skills, and the like that trigger on an attack).  Mega Man's statistics are always dead average - HP, speed, defense, etc.

Example: Mega Man defeats Angelo.  He now has some wussy physical attacks if he wants them and various magic spells.  He doesn't have Angelo's 20% resistance to ice or his good base speed, but skills like Buff/Kabuff can still buff Mega Man's stats.

Example: Mega Man defeats Karin.  By equipping her, he is *not* status immune and does *not* regenerate.  He does get her Sword Arts, though, which function exactly as if Karin used them (fire or physical elemental, etc.).

Note that there are a lot of weird edge cases with this, but I feel it's closer to Mega Man.  Does Yulie get her FP boost passive ability?  (Probably not, though it feels weird since that's like a starting MP bar.)  FF7 limits or FFX Stoic overdrives clearly never power up, but would an FFX Attacker / Strategist overdrive still be accessible?  Beats me (though without the passive ability Triple Overdrive the point is likely moot).

A quick note given interpretation B.  Since Mega Man is average speed, average health, and status bait, this implies that he will die without a turn guaranteed against certain speedy opponents (Celia, Rubicant, Dehuai, etc.).  That's no fun!  Everyone knows that Mega Man can do anything if he tries(*not actually true).  So.

House Rule 1: The one passive skill Mega Man can acquire is initiative.  If he can kill someone with it. 

This applies only to interpretation B, of course; obviously Mega Man can get it already under A.

And oh yes, one other thing:

House Rule 2: Mega Man can't steal the skills of characters with ratings greater than 4.5.  (Read: "in Godlike")

Logic?  Mega Man doesn't get anything from the Dr. Wily bosses.  Also some of these skills are not just broken but hard to interpret, and without this rule the trick becomes even more to to find a spoilable godlike and steal their skills.  Originally I just wrote it as "characters in Godlike," but that unfortunately catches some cool but non-broken Heavy-upgrades like Tidus and Raquel.

I think seeing Mega Man builds without either one of these rule would be interesting too, so feel free to suggest options for that.

---

Anyway, as a suggestion...  for the Dr. Wily stage to test any builds you make against, if you're using House Rule 1, I'd recommend...  let's see, Zophar, Fou-Lu, Belial (w/ 4D Pocket), Yuna, Sephiroth, and Lady.  If you're not using HR1 and thus don't have initiative, then tough but beatable opponents might be Jade, Citan, Chaos, Profound Darkness, and Lulu.

So, see any good Mega Man builds?

SnowFire

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2009, 11:34:45 PM »
Figured I'd post my first attempt.  I don't want to overthink this before others get a chance to have their say, but figured that one sample couldn't hurt.  This is using Interpretation B.

Mega Man vs...
S3 Elaine (Heal-lock with average damage, collect a S3 Water Rune (and some mostly worthless Fire damage).  This was originally Rico, until I trolled through the Suikoden 3 stat topic and found that surprisingly, Rico has good defense (?!).  Meanwhile Elaine, even under her high-defense setup, is exactly heal-locked by average damage- 202 damage to 400 HP.  Mega Man would lose if his cannon had damage variance - Elaine could wait until low-damage shots, sneak damage in, then full-heal.)

Yulie (Toss Robo-Yulie into the Lake, laugh, get equipped with: weird satellite/nanomachine control rings.  Bwahaha, Yulie skillset off average rather than fail durability now.)

Auron (Interesting match.  Auron opens with Armor Break, then starts spamming Zombie Strike and counterattacks?  Yulie lacks a Dispel/Esuna spells, so she'd normally be screwed, but S3 Kindness Drops also cures status.  Auron's Overdrive is still a threat, but...  with Quicken, he's getting violently double and triple turned, and it should only take two attacks + a Sacrifice at full to kill him.  I guess he could open with Power Break instead, but that wouldn't affect Sacrifice and slows down his offense, so it's not that bad.  Sacrifice also prevents having to deal with the Masamune at low HP.)

S5 Lyon (Initiative Quicken, then toss her into the Lake.)

Note that if you ignore House Rule 2 (the "no gain from Godlike" rule), fight Zophar rather than Lyon.  Initiative Silent Lake, laugh, Get Equipped with: Fate Stormer, crush everyone in your path with initiative Fate Storm.

This build doesn't do too badly against Dr. Wily, though it's still not perfect.  My thoughts on those matches:

Fou-Lu: Win?  Initiative Quicken, then Vermilion Sky to damp down the damage of Dark Wave.  Take the hit, heal, and then alternate between damage and healing on the double-turns.  Alternatively if you really respect his HP, then double Vermillion Sky to open, then sit back and heal for a long time until a double turn comes up, and THEN get the Quicken in.  There should be enough MP reserves for that.

Sephiroth: Loss, regardless of whether Pale Horse is magic or not.  If it's not, then Mega Man gets statused out no matter what.  If it is...  Initiative Quicken, then Lake.  Sephy is still 2HKOing, though, and even Raquel level physicals might not kill him in time, which is what we need. 

Yuna: Tie, leaning toward Mega Man?  Using Setting Sun, hope for ID against Yuna's good MDef.  Alternately, Vermilion Sky arguably might OHKO.  If Yuna survives, the usual Aeon Parade follows.

Zophar: Win.  Initiative Silent Lake.

Belial: Win.  Initiative Vermilion Sky is a OHKO, which is what's needed (that or some kind of "I can't be targeted effect" I guess?).

Lady: SPLAT.  Lost Progress turns off the buffing game.  Initiative Silent Lake can extend Mega Man's lifetime somwhat to not die in the opening barrage, but then he'd need some form of healing that isn't magical (Ryu2's Guts?), which he doesn't have.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2009, 12:16:32 AM »
Neat idea.

Hmm. Personally I'd be inclined to throw out an Interpretation C, which is similar to B, with a few key differences:

-Mega Man can inherit passive abilities. Yes, it's true, he can't really do this in-game (besides perhaps some shield-type moves which could be seen as passive). On the other hand, as you observed, if we don't allow this, then he remains average speed, average durability, and statusbait forever, which leaves a lot of the DL he can't beat. Just tossing him initiative seems inelegant, as it means all optimum Mega Man builds will inevitably go through one of the small number of DL opponents with this ability.
-Mega Man can only inherit ONE ability from each person he defeats. True to in-game, and forces some interesting choices. For instance, if he beat Angelo, he could take Angelo's healing, or his instant death, or his Oomph, or his ability to resist ID, but not more than one.


Also, incidentally, I don't think Mega Man could beat Elaine. Although her default equip set apparently lets her be 2HKOed by average damage, that's because she's tanked her durability for offence. Switching those Feather Earrings for def+ equips leaves her 3HKOed and with an easy win. Even with the 2HKOed problem she could probably win due to her speed, but this way is safer.

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SnowFire

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2009, 12:39:24 AM »
Dark Holy Elf: Actually...  C is a really neat variant; good idea.  Yeah, the one thing about that house rule is that it does pretty much require you beat up Tidus/Auron/PB Ash/Albert Simon (might be a few other beatable ones I'm forgetting?).  I'd guesstimate that it'd take more than just 4 matches for Mega Man to be his proper Godlike self under that one, as a comment.

Re Elaine: According the stat topic, she's got 201 PDF with 3x Feather Earrings, and 215 Def with IHShoes/EGauntlet/Yellow Scarf.  I was using the 215 Defense number.  With 416 HP as the cast average, 166 damage is average, and with 251 Defense as the cast average, Elaine's still 36 below it.  166+36 = 202 damage to her 400 HP.  Also...  I don't think she has 2HKO damage, so going on the offensive shouldn't work either.

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2009, 12:55:51 AM »
Checking the stat topic... the 215 Def is taken with a Wizard Hat instead of a Chief's Hat or Custom Casque. Either should get her into not-2HKOed territory. Surprised Dhyer didn't list an optimise-for-durability setup for a healer, but given how many characters and setups that topic has, I'm not going to fault him. (The two setups there are optimised for physical damage and magical damage respectively.)

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SnowFire

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2009, 02:09:07 AM »
Ahhh.  Fair enough, didn't notice that the armor had changed as well.  Alas I don't think any other Suiko3 Water rune users are 2HKOed by average, except maybe Sarah (though not for me, since I'm the crazy one who allows and respects the optional boss forms), so that strategy is out of business in round 1.  Might be some Suiko4 characters that suck enough to pull it off?  Checking, I think Katarina is 2HKOed, so yeah, she can be used instead.  Brings a long some decent Lightning damage, too, so arguably she might even be a better choice then Elaine anyway, though the shorter duration on Silent Lake hurts.

As for interpretation C...  hmm, early thoughts are something like:

WAF Emma, get Great Booster (Double speed, small defense increase as well)

Persona 3 Chidori, get <50% Health Tetrakarn (Use a double turn to kill her with two attacks)

VP2 Alicia, steal...  uh, a Heal with interpretation issues.  Probably best way to interpret it would be a Heal which gives you your next turn in 35% of the time it normally would since it's 35 AP?  And can't be used again until a normal, unhasted turn would have passed from when you use it? (Use Tetrakarn once damaged to win the fight.  It's an infinite fight, but Mega Man is doing damage and is invincible.  Questionable legality though, as I can see allowing only clean-wins for the challenge, not TKOs.  If this is a concern...  huh, there's probably somebody with a slow status Alicia doesn't block that could be killed instead of Chidori?)

S3 Estella, steal 2 shots of Final Flame (Great Booster so she can't use low damage spells to threaten Final Flame, heal off her low-level attacks a lot).

FFX Tidus, steal Initiative.  Use Great Booster to shed Tidus's Slow and Heal a lot.  Tidus has to chip carefully to avoid Tetrakarn, too.  Eventually he should run out of MP.  Then fry him.

(Originally: Worker 8, steal 0 Faith.  Initiative Great Booster, shoot him from a distance a lot so he can't counter.  Mega Man 5HKOs here, but with Worker 8's slow speed, he should 5:1 him anyway so that he only has one chance to try the ID for a still reasonably solid win.)

EDIT: On second thought, 0 Faith isn't as good as I thought, as since it's a package deal stat that includes Magic, it'd arguably tank all the stolen magic as well?  Well, change that to "somebody with awesome MDef who's still beatable."  CT Magus maybe?

Hmm...  high magic defense seems pretty godly to grab.  Since it's time consuming to grab status-immunities one at a time, a really good MDef is almost as good, though there are physically and otherwise induced statuses, I suppose.

So, under DHE's interpretation...  Zophar is a clean win, Sephiroth depends on if Pale Horse is magical and thus bounces off the MDef, Belial's a win, Yuna is likely a loss, Fou-Lu is a win, and Lady is Mega Man splatting as usual.  Of course this is off a 5-opponent chain.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 02:21:07 AM by SnowFire »

superaielman

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2009, 03:18:09 AM »
Quote
EDIT: On second thought, 0 Faith isn't as good as I thought, as since it's a package deal stat that includes Magic, it'd arguably tank all the stolen magic as well?  Well, change that to "somebody with awesome MDef who's still beatable."  CT Magus maybe?

Worker's elemental defenses would be a better steal, yeah. 0 faith is very, very bad for mega man here.


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Veryslightlymad

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2009, 01:57:24 AM »
The "It's -probably- not legal, but it's sure as hell pretty darned funny" build.

Round 1: Big Joe
Megaman Gains a Crowd (did the crowd work on a different timer? I think it did)

Round 2: Edward Damcyan
Megaman Gains the Ability to Hide

Round 3: Jet Enduro
Megaman gains Accelerator

No round 4.

superaielman

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2009, 02:22:03 AM »
Megaman vs Gafgarion (Boss)

Megaman gains Night Sword!

Megaman vs Dorcas- Doubled Night Sword is uncounterable and should keep up with Dorcas's damage. Megaman's basic physical is completely average, so double Night Sword is going to hurt.

Megaman has gained Dorcas's strength!

Megaman vs Scythe

Megaman has gained Scythe's speed!

Megaman vs Yuna

Go first, OHKO with Night Sword.  Megaman's got like 200% speed and a OHKO level Night Sword here. It's horribly abusing some things, but that's the fun of the topic. This beats pretty much every single godlike PC who isn't TL.
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Taishyr

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2009, 03:29:58 AM »
Following interp. C, taking some licenses with stuff because it's fun. Also using Lights only for best setup, so I'm per force not being optimal.

Megaman vs. Augst - Take resistances. Megaman now absorbs all elements and resists physicals.
Megaman vs. Taya - Take Atlas 2. High 2HKO magic.
Megaman vs. Emma - Take the awesome stat buffer spell.
Megaman vs. Yukari - Take Diarahan.
Megaman vs. Marcus - Counters.
Megaman vs. Milon - Status immunity.
Megaman vs. Tia/Krin - Speed.

Now, Megaman gets Atlas 2 counters, nasty resistances, a brutal buff, full healing, counters, and speed of awesome.

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2009, 03:46:47 AM »
Mine isn't too effective, but it certainly works well enough for a focused, specific effort? Interp C, by the way.

Megaman vs. Krin = Krin speed.

Megaman vs. Clive = Megaman get Clive's Lock-On.

Megaman vs. Jeane = Megaman gets Jeane's damage.

Megaman vs. Heat = Megaman goes first, Lightning L4 x2, boomies~.

Heat isn't a champ, but he's certainly at least close to champ-powered, so it works.
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2009, 06:38:06 PM »
I really like this idea, I'd like to see more possible interps for this.

I tried one using Interp C.

Megaman vs. Mariel -> Gets HealBerries
Megaman vs. Leehalt -> Gets Rule of Vengeance
Megaman vs. Millenia -> Gets Spellbinding Eye  (I think I'd see Rule of Vengeance acting even if Millenia SBE'd Megaman first)
Megaman vs. Fou-lu : Alternates between using SBE and his normal buster to slowly get a win here.

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Re: Mega Man vs. the DL (not the RPG one; the original)
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2009, 11:02:28 AM »
Snow your Megaman might beat Seph?  I forget how he works so I might be wrong here.

Initiative/Quicken.
Attack
Sephiroth flies (I think this wastes a turn?  I think Pale Horse would be blocked?)
Pop Silent Lake
Sephiroth has to land (I think everything he uses while flying is magic?)
Attack
Sephiroth attacks
Attack

3 Raquel hits should drop Seph.  If not, Quicken Megaman could very well double by this point and get 4 in.
Now, if I was wrong on any of my 3 thoughts, then Megaman gets splattered.